Official: No tradition of music in pubs

Subject: OFFICIAL No tradition of music in pubs
From: The Shambles
Date: 14 May 02 - 02:02 PM

Yesterday there was a meeting with John Tiffney of the Local Government Association to discuss entertainment licensing reform. Mr Tiffney represents the LGA on this subject when lobbying central Government on behalf of local authorities. He made the following extraordinary, and illuminating claims:

There is no tradition of folk music in pubs in England and Wales.

The low take-up of PELs in England and Wales was simply a reflection of low public demand for live music.

On both points he rejected suggestions that the uniquely restrictive and costly licensing regime and years of heavy-handed enforcement might be partly responsible.

The LGA is a powerful lobbying agency for local government. Many in the Department for Culture, Media and Sport still give credence to these LGA views about PELs and their effect on live music.

Not to encourage knee-jerk responses, I think it is important that folk seek confirmation of these views directly from the LGA.

Brian Briscoe is Chief Executive, Chris Butcher deals with cultural policy issues. The address is:

Local Government Association
Local Government House
Smith Square
London SW1P 3HZ

Subject: RE: OFFICIAL No tradition of music in pubs
From: Alice
Date: 14 May 02 - 02:15 PM

Shambles, your situation over there just continues to amaze me with each new thread that unfolds. The idea that your government can block freedom of expression to that extreme degree is just unimaginable coming from the US experience. We have laws about busking in our city, but anyone can get together with as many people as they want to make music, with no license to pay for, at any day or time of their choosing, as long as the owner of the property doesn't object.

Subject: RE: OFFICIAL No tradition of music in pubs
From: MMario
Date: 14 May 02 - 02:19 PM

Does this man live in the real world?

Subject: RE: OFFICIAL No tradition of music in pubs
From: greg stephens
Date: 14 May 02 - 02:24 PM

shambles, could you expand a little. Who was themeeting between, when Mr Tiffney made these strange remarks. I would be very interested in writing a letter but a need a ;ittle more background to be sure of my facts. I have done afair amount of research on music in pubs as thecarrier of our traditions so I could give a bit of chapter and verse.(The historical research, I mean. I won't concentrate on my personal lifestyle!). cheers, Greg

Subject: RE: OFFICIAL No tradition of music in pubs
From: Grab
Date: 14 May 02 - 02:25 PM

Any transcripts/minutes available, Shambles?

BTW, I heard back from Anne Campbell on that EDM thing (thread drift, ho hum). Apparently as Private Secretary to Patricia Hewitt, she's not allowed to sign Early Day Motions. She's said she'd pass it along to someone appropriate - I've given her my name and address, so see what happens.

Graham.

Subject: RE: OFFICIAL No tradition of music in pubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 May 02 - 02:37 PM

It's not actually true that Parliamentary Private Secretaries are not allowed to sign Early Day Motions. In fact even gvernment Ministers can sign them.

They always say they aren't allowed, and they may even believe it, but if they do believe it, it just means they have not done their homework. This site explains about all that stuff.

I think John Tiffney's remark here is actually very useful. If he actually said it, and was speaking on behalf of the LGA, that in itself will serve to discredit anything else the organisation says, sinc eit is such an idiotiuc thing to say. It deserves to be publicised as widely as possible. It has the handy quality of being recognisably an insult to the whole country.

Subject: RE: OFFICIAL No tradition of music in pubs
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 May 02 - 02:45 PM

Well, I guess it's just an indication that in the UK, as in the US, corporate interests have precedence over cultural concerns. In the eyes of those in power, music isn't for enjoyment - it's for making money.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: OFFICIAL No tradition of music in pubs
From: Col K
Date: 14 May 02 - 02:47 PM

It just goes to prove that all these unelected spokesmen for various bodies do not live in the real world. Does the gentleman( loose term ) know what folk music or even live music sounds like. Someone should take him in hand and lead him in the direction of some real live music then he learn about what he is talking B------T about. He may even learn to stop talking B------T.

Subject: RE: OFFICIAL No tradition of music in pubs
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 14 May 02 - 02:58 PM

Just to play devil's advocate here ... count the number of pubs in your town/city then ask yourself how many have a folk night. I think there definitely WAS a tradition in the pubs but it shifted for a couple of reasons: Juke boxes and Social Clubs. The latter, especially in the north of England, are still very much a bastion of live music (albeit not usually traditional folk).

What I found more interesting was the suggestion that if people don't want a licence it's because they don't want live music. The old saying 'use it or lose it' come to mind.

Subject: RE: OFFICIAL No tradition of music in pubs
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 14 May 02 - 03:12 PM

Shambles,

I've followed the PEL threads and I confess to being a yank who just doesn't get it and probably never will.

As an apprentice geezer who participated in several large scale public expressions of dissatisfaction with government policy during the 60s (18 that is), I remember that part of the inspiration was the example of the ban-the-bombers in England. If I remember, the thinking was that if you didn't play by the rules you MIGHT not win, but if you did play by the rules not winning was a certainty.

Have any of your aging folkies suggested action along similar lines for this issue? Just curious. Not recommending such myself. Not at all.

Subject: RE: OFFICIAL No tradition of music in pubs
From: InOBU
Date: 14 May 02 - 03:22 PM

Next I expect, there will be a public burning of all the books titled "Pub Songs of...." Cheers, Larry

Subject: RE: OFFICIAL No tradition of music in pubs
From: The Shambles
Date: 14 May 02 - 03:31 PM

Russ I can only speak for myself. That really is the problem. I have tried to wake up the sleeping folk dragon to the theft of its jewells and will continue to do so, with the help of many good souls on the Mudcat.

But without more general support here, any action (except the naked Morris protest, still no takers) will just be ignored.

It is getting all the folk informed, that is difficult. The editor of the main specalist monthly magazine, which could help ensure all were informed, does not see it as a problem.

Subject: RE: OFFICIAL No tradition of music in pubs
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 14 May 02 - 03:45 PM

Time was when the local authority associations (Association of County Councils, Association of District Councils, Association of Metropolitan Authorities) were the normal channel for central government consultation with local authorities. Then local government reorganisation happened in the 1990s and the associations merged and rationalised (= downsized their staff). The LGA is not resourced to obtain views from members generally, and there is a problem getting views from elected members (as opposed to officials) within the consultation timescales. These days, at least as far as DTLR consultations are concerned, central government consultation papers have to be sent to the hundreds of individual local authorities.

Subject: RE: OFFICIAL No tradition of music in pubs
From: GUEST
Date: 14 May 02 - 03:54 PM

Shambles,

Can you as Greg and other have asked, provide a bit more information?

there was a meeting with John Tiffney doesn't tell us very much.

Thanks

Subject: RE: OFFICIAL No tradition of music in pubs
From: GUEST,Peter from Essex
Date: 14 May 02 - 05:02 PM

If reported correctly Mr Tiffany's claim is certainly flawed as most sessions are on premises without PELs. However the risk of getting shut down at best, and having their friendly landlord prosecuted at worst means that most organisers keep their heads down.

Like the others I would like more background on this meeting.

Subject: RE: OFFICIAL No tradition of music in pubs
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 14 May 02 - 06:03 PM

British Pub music is alive and well! Unfortunately, as Alice has pointed out, it's over here in the US and, I assume, Canada as well.

I am saddened to hear of such things. It diminishes the whole world.

Subject: RE: OFFICIAL No tradition of music in pubs
From: GUEST,Wanker
Date: 14 May 02 - 06:12 PM

Celtic Soul,

It's still pretty much alive in England too.

Shambles is having unnecessary 'kittens'

Subject: RE: OFFICIAL No tradition of music in pubs
From: GUEST
Date: 14 May 02 - 06:15 PM

Celtic Soul,

It's still pretty much alive in England too.

Shambles is having unnecessary 'kittens'

Subject: RE: OFFICIAL No tradition of music in pubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 May 02 - 06:18 PM

Well, here is the website of the Local Government Association. - and here is the contact page. And here is John Tiffney's email address - [e-mail]

A note of caution. Remember the principle that in any comnflict you should always try to avoid annoying your opponents, unless that is going to weaken them significantly. And we still haven't got any information about what exactly he said, and where and when. Of course presumably he would know thta sort of thing.

Subject: RE: OFFICIAL No tradition of music in pubs
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 15 May 02 - 02:54 PM

McGrath,

"Remember the principle that in any comnflict you should always try to avoid annoying your opponents,"

Huh?

Where's the fun in that?

I don't remember that from the 60s.

Subject: RE: OFFICIAL No tradition of music in pubs
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 15 May 02 - 03:05 PM

Shambles,

Are musical gatherings in places other than pubs an option? e.g., private homes, churches, fire halls, etc. Or would they be subject to the same laws?

I ask because pub gatherings are not a viable option for me (aside from the fact that I live in the states) because I am seriously allergic to tobacco smoke. I also ask because all the informal music I do occurs in such venues.

Subject: RE: OFFICIAL No tradition of music in pubs
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 15 May 02 - 04:37 PM

What I can't figure out, and I've tried to follow this thing, is why it is such a big deal to not have live music in the Pubs? Our little town of about 10,000 has a Saturday night Folk music at one of the little coffee shops, there is a group in town that brings in folkies, and one of the bars (Pub for others) has mostly folk style music. I'm not sure the musicians even pay taxes on what they make there - most likely not enough to pay on -

Steve

Subject: RE: OFFICIAL No tradition of music in pubs
From: GUEST,Peter from Essex
Date: 15 May 02 - 04:52 PM

Public musical gatherings (apart from Divine Service) would normally require a licence. The key word ins "public". If you let punters in off the street, for payment or otherwise, then the venue must be licensed. The trouble is that standard conditions are often applied which are designed for night clubs and concerts rather than small informa events.

Before Mr Gall jumps in to contradict the major exception is where customers of a public house are singing or playing for their own entertainment rather than to an audience. This should exempt most sessions and in fact most do seem to be quietly ignored but some to get classified as "entertainment" for various reasons which causes a licence to be demanded.

Subject: RE: OFFICIAL No tradition of music in pubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 May 02 - 05:10 PM

(Any conflict that's you want to win that is, Russ. If you're just playing games, just annoying people can be fun. If you want to win the only point of annoying people is when it weakens them, which it can do, or when it is a way of getting other people involved on your side. That was true in the 60s, and it's true now.)

The legal restrictions apply to any public place. So in your living room, no problem. In a coffee bar, or any other public building, you need a PEL. And most of these places won't have a PEL.

Like any silly law, much of the time it isn't enforced, but it's there as a threat. And here is a thread,Killed by the PEL system where there are a number of cases posted where sessions have been stopped because of this. It could be the healthy little session that's been going for years in a pub down your way. Snuffed out just like that.

It's happened twice within the course of a year to well established sessions within a few miles of where I live, in two different districts

in different counties. If it hasn't happened down your way, you've been lucky, but don't count on your luck lasting.

And on top of that God knows how many places (not just pubs) have snuffed out sessions in advance. Ask if you can play some music, and more than likely you get told "Sorry, we haven't got a licence for that." (And even if that's not the reason formally given, it'll be one of the reasons in the mind of the proprietor all right.)

And as anybody who has been following this, on the present plans of the government, it's likely that it won't be legal even to have a single person play or sing in a pub, or in any other place open to the public, unless it's got a licence specifically for this.

Subject: RE: OFFICIAL No tradition of music in pubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 May 02 - 05:14 PM

"The major exception is where customers of a public house are singing or playing for their own entertainment rather than to an audience. "

That exception just does not exist in law. Both the sessions which I mentioned in my last post as being snuffed out in my locality were precisely those sort of sessions. Full details in the thread "Killed by the PEL system" which I linked to in the last post.

Subject: RE: OFFICIAL No tradition of music in pubs
From: Rollo
Date: 15 May 02 - 06:07 PM

I was shaking my head over that UK policy and thought it unbelievable as well as unbearable. Until the point a friend of mine who once had a pub told me it is undiscussed practice here in germany. Each and every public music performance has to be licenced, including spontaneous singarounds in pubs. There are special regulations for divine service and school performances, but no exception. Maybe its not so unusual in other countries as well? (Not that I think it´s all right, I was rather shocked to hear about it.)

Subject: RE: OFFICIAL No tradition of music in pubs
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 May 02 - 06:37 PM

The whole point of placing the LGA's reported views here is to enable us to find out what exactly is their view, which is being presented to the Government as fact.

Why not write and ask the LGA what view they hold and are conveying on our behalf to Government?

This will also to make these people aware of this public concern.

So much of this process, of vital interest to the public, and which we will have to live with in the future, is being undertaken in private. As indeed this meeting was.

Subject: RE: OFFICIAL No tradition of music in pubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 May 02 - 06:53 PM

Germany too? Is that something left over from Bismark, or was it sneaked in by some English bureaucrat in post-war Germany? Any other countries got anything weird like that?

Subject: RE: OFFICIAL No tradition of music in pubs
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 May 02 - 07:01 PM

The following exchange between Mr Bridgett of the DCMS and Richard Bridge will explain what is happening (in private).

From: [e-mail]
[mailto:[e-mail]]
Sent: 15 May 2002 17:53

Dear Mr Bridge

Thank you for your e-mail correspondence to Dr Howells. I have been asked to reply on his behalf.

If I may take your last point first, there was, as you know, a detailed licensing review between 1997 to 1999 on all aspects of licensing, which led to the publication of the Government's White Paper, "Time for Reform", in April 2000. All areas of the licensed trade were involved in that review as were performers, the local authorities, the police, magistrates and other stakeholder groups. The White Paper attracted responses from 1200 individuals and bodies, one of which was from the Association of British Jazz. As the Government is adhering to the policies set out in the White Paper, we believe that the quote from the Association of British Jazz is a valid comment on the Government's proposals for reform.

In your e-mail, you enquired about the Instructions For Parliamentary Counsel. I must point out that these are not a document in the public domain. Similarly, the adequacy of definitions used in primary legislation is a matter for Parliament.

There is no current intention to publish an advance draft of the licensing Bill before it is presented in Parliament. We do, however, intend to discuss some of the issues with interested stakeholders in working groups. Invitations which have gone out include proprieters of musical venues and performers. As I have remarked in a previous e-mail to you, this is not a public consultation.

Finally, in response to your concern that local councils might overcharge for permission to stage public performances, I am able to confirm that fees will be controlled and set centrally by the Government to prevent the excesses which have occurred in some local authority areas.

Yours sincerely
Ronnie Bridgett Alcohol & Entertainment Licensing Branch Tourism Division

Dear Mr Bridgett

I am afraid you have not got the point, or you are trying to evade the point, about the quote from the ABJ. At the time the letter in question was written, no-one imagined that the 2-in-a-bar rule was to be abolished and not replaced with another exemption. To say that there had been consultation about liquor licensing (and about full PEL licensing, which was, at the time, mostly assumed to be irrelevant to folk music) so that any concern now expressed is untimely is a ritual of formalism far distant from any idea of an informed democracy. The letter is also a letter very plainly about the money available to pay performers - which is not a point of relevance to amateurs.

Even if the letter were not irrelevant at the moment for these reasons, in any event the ABJ do not make government policy nor determine its correctness or otherwise and the supposed fact that they approved of your intentions would not of itself justify your intentions if the ABJ were wrong. Your response on this point is therefore at best unattractively disingenuous. Strangely, as I type, I hear a reporter on the television speaking of the government's perceived lack of acknowledgment of the concerns of voters.

You are quite wrong that the definitions in a bill are only a matter for parliament. They are a matter for the proper concern of the voters by whose consent parliament governs. The public at present want to know the effect of the intended legislation. The government on the one hand says that legislation will have certain effects, and on the other hand says that the definitions are in the hands of parliamentary counsel whose instructions are secret. This is not an exercise in open democracy. It is oppression by stealth. To say that you will "reform" the 2-in-a-bar rule and then plan to replace it with a "none-in-a-bar rule" could be called something even less complimentary. You cannot expect the people to trust a government to legislate in the public interest if the government will not be candid about the content of the legislation it intends to put forward.

It is even more remarkable that you speak of an intention to discuss with "stakeholders" (an odd choice of word, I think, for many are properly interested in this debate even if they hold no pecuniary or other specified type of stake) when you have refused to meet the English Folk Dance and Song Society, and when virtually the only government acknowledgment of folk music in the parliamentary debate to date has been the sort of sneer at such music that some might associate with the lowest form of slick spivvishness.

You seem to wish to ignore the fact that the public have spoken, by deed and word, about the licensing of small music. Many have told you that they wanted to be more free to make folk music in pubs. You plan to make them less so. Those whose publicans did not pay for PELs, either because they were within an exemption, or because they wrongly thought they were within an exemption, or who did not care if they were within an exemption, or in practical terms were not the subject of enforcement (when the police so sensibly took the view that they had more important crimes to pursue than singing in bars) will all face an increase in the cost of their music if the proposed new law is enacted as at present intended, and if it is enforced.They will say that a politician's and a civil servant's idea of a modest fee is not theirs - and they will be influenced in this by the eagerness with which local government is fighting to be able to administer and charge for this new layer of bureaucracy. If fees are to be set centrally, and if you want us to be comforted by that, tell us at what level they are to be set. £500 for a PEL (if the pub did not already have one) would bankrupt most folk clubs. Indeed rather less would do so too.

It seems almost fit for the pen of Orwell or Huxley that the department of Culture is presiding over the introduction of legislation that will add licensing fees to and so repress folk music and dance - all the while pretending that a desire to avoid additional bureaucracy prevents the regulation of the antisocial and stifling prevalence of invasive and deafening big screen football or wrestling, or the noise level of juke boxes.

The only way that folk music and dance will be able to survive will be if they are free of the dead hand of local authority (or other) licensing. They should be prized and preserved, even encouraged and subsidised. Once they are extinct it will be too late to revive them.

There are many other follies in the present government position about licensing and folk music and dance, and I will be writing further both as part of the present discussion and for publication.

Foolish laws create disrespect for the law.

Yours sincerely Richard McD. Bridge

Subject: RE: OFFICIAL No tradition of music in pubs
From: GUEST
Date: 15 May 02 - 07:07 PM

They will ban Darts and Dominoes next

Subject: RE: OFFICIAL No tradition of music in pubs
From: Alice
Date: 15 May 02 - 07:11 PM

Why do I feel I have been transported into an episode of "Yes, Minister"?

Subject: RE: OFFICIAL No tradition of music in pubs
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 May 02 - 07:11 PM

The following letter sent to the LGA.

CC Kim Howells MP
CC Jim Knight MP
Dear Brian Biscoe

I have been informed that at a meeting to discuss entertainment licensing reform, held yesterday 13/05/02 John Tiffney made the following extraordinary observations (in italics).

As Mr Tiffney represents the LGA on this subject when lobbying central Government on behalf of local authorities, comments like these could explain why the Government is so ill informed on the subject of traditional musical activities in pubs. Many in the Department for Culture, Media and Sport still give credence to these LGA views about PELs and their effect on live music.

The low take-up of PELs in England and Wales was simply a reflection of low public demand for live music.

I understand that he rejected suggestions that the uniquely restrictive and costly licensing regime and years of heavy-handed enforcement might be partly responsible for the 5% take up figure.

The low PEL take up figure of course bears no relationship with the high level of live music. As many establishments can currently provide small scale live music, exempt from the requirement.

The demand for live music, free of unnecessary official constraints and payments, has never been more apparent, to anyone, save possibly the LGA's advisors and the Government they advise.

The idea of the cut, charge or (per head) fee, place by the courts or local authority on commercial music events, is an anachronism, open to abuse and criticism. It has no place in a modern and open licensing regime and should end with this reform. This Government, if it showed the courage to do it, would be popularly supported for ending it.

There is no tradition of folk music in pubs in England and Wales

What are Mr Tiffney's qualifications, source and support for the extraordinary claim that there is no tradition of music in pubs in England and Wales? Perhaps he would like me to show him?
Even if it were true, which it isn't, the proposed reforms would ensure that there never could be.

As a traditional musician, who specialises in seeking out (and organising) participatory sessions in pubs, I can state quite unequivocally that Mr Tiffney is responsible for providing, quite dangerously incorrect information to the Government if the above statement is as reported.

As a traditional musician who has personally suffered from enforcement action based on the ignorance of local authority officers on this subject, and the law, I am appalled that this ignorance appears to emanate from the very top and is passed to Government as informed comment.

This uninformed attitude towards traditional music in pubs is causing harm to priceless cultural activities and giving great concern to the many that take part. The minister responsible for culture has the opportunity, with this reform to prevent once and for all, these activities from falling foul of strict, unbending and reckless interpretation and enforcement by local authorities. The LGA should be assisting toward this aim, but would appear to have a quite different agenda.

Yours sincerely Roger Gall ENDS

Subject: RE: OFFICIAL No tradition of music in pubs
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 May 02 - 07:29 PM

The following infomation and view from Hamish

The Department for Culture has today confirmed the Government's current position: it will NOT require future licensees to declare the provision of live satellite tv on their licence application. However, Ministers may be persuaded to change their minds if a reasonable case against this can be made [how gracious].

My view: we should use this as an argument in favour of an exemption for live music that is incidental to the main business of the premises.

Public music or dancing as defined in the current statute (i.e. Local Govnmnt [Misc Prov] Act 1982 or London Govnmnt Act 1963) will be licensable under the new regime. This basically means public music or dancing or entertainment of a like kind. This will include DJs playing recorded sound, or jukebox.

Hamish Birchall

Subject: RE: OFFICIAL No tradition of music in pubs
From: GUEST
Date: 15 May 02 - 07:50 PM

Shambles,

When you say that this is "of vital interest to the public" you are clearly wrong. The public don't give a stuff.

Indeed, even on this forum, where you might expect a good deal of support, most of your messages are now only answered by McGrath.

Whilst I admire your passion, you need to wake up to the fact that most of us don't care a jot, and your incessent 'refreshing' of the topic is boring us all to death.

Subject: RE: OFFICIAL No tradition of music in pubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 May 02 - 08:16 PM

"Public music or dancing as defined in the current statute (i.e. Local Govnmnt [Misc Prov] Act 1982 or London Govnmnt Act 1963) will be licensable under the new regime. This basically means public music or dancing or entertainment of a like kind."

That's a classic definition. The official definition of "public music" is "public music". This could be a whole new approach to writing dictionaries. "The definition of 'cat' is 'cat'; 'apple' is defined as 'apple'..."

Has anyone seen in anything from anybody in authority a recognition of the fact that pubs are not the only public places where it is possible to make music? And that the existing Public Entertainment Licence requirements apply to all places in England and Wales to which the public has access. (Apart from church services, and the two-in-a-bar exemption which is to go.)

Subject: RE: OFFICIAL No tradition of music in pubs
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 15 May 02 - 08:19 PM

there is similarity with the Dance Hall act in Ireland. I dont know the precise history, but up until the 1920's or so people used to meet in houses and have set dances in the kitchen and those attending would pay a bit for the food and drink etc. Of course the church and government saw this as a loss of income and control. So the Dance Hall act was passed and all dances had to be held in a hall (of course the only halls were church halls) I think the result was less and less people danced and Irish set dancing declined in a big way, its only relatively recently that its made a comeback. Im not sure but that may be one of the reasons for the dances at the crossroads (as well as the fact that people would meet halfway between two towns). Petr.

Subject: RE: OFFICIAL No tradition of music in pubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 May 02 - 09:17 PM

The trouble with Civil Disobedience on this , as Russ suggested, is that the law is cunning. It isn't illegal to make the music without a licence. It's illegal for the people in charge of the premises,whatever sort of premises these may be, to allow people to make the music.

So it's no use us parading around making music. Though technically it's illegal making music on a parade, so far as I know they've never tried to enforce that. So I suppose a musical pub crawl round the streets of London announcing the fact that it didn't have a Public Entertainment Licence, might be worth a shot. (It'd have to be London for any hope of media coverage. The rest of the country doesn't really exist for the national media, apart from spectacular crimes and disasters.)

What we've got here is a classic case of "repressive tolerance" - a law which, if an attempt were made to rigorously enforce it, it would be uninforceable, so they keep it in reserve and just use it when they want to; but in the meantime it dampens down people doing things without asking permission.

Subject: RE: OFFICIAL No tradition of music in pubs
From: The Shambles
Date: 16 May 02 - 03:21 AM

What we've got here is a classic case of "repressive tolerance" - a law which, if an attempt were made to rigorously enforce it, it would be uninforceable, so they keep it in reserve and just use it when they want to; but in the meantime it dampens down people doing things without asking permission.

I think that it is a pretty good sumary of the current situation but one which will change for the worse under a supposed reform, as it stands, if the cultre and thinking behind this reform is not challenged.

The reform is clearly and blatantly bogus! If the concerns were the ones stated, the public's safety and interests, then TV and church service music should require the entertainment element of the premises licence.

For the question is now and in the future - Any disturbances with TV watching-crowds on licensed premises and noise from amplified church service music, would have to be dealt with by others legislative means. These means must be thought sufficient by our Government, and if these measures are, why can't they be used if and when required at other music events, liquor licensed or not?

No music event should be placed at risk because the Home Office culture of obtaining council revenue from all commercial music events, is now to be continued under a minisry set up to promote CULTURE.

The difficulty is what is the way forward for those that see this? Accept the cynical nature of the stealth tax on music, recognise its thinking, stems from the origin of the reforms at the Home Office and ask for exemptions (and have to define these), or something far more radical?

I fear just trying for exemptions for folk music or unpaid events, will be a small voice and also not seen as too helpful to non folk music people who are affected and trying to improve things generally. I also fear that we need all the friends we can get, for formidable forces like the LGA are stacked up against future sensible public music making (and dancing).

Subject: RE: OFFICIAL No tradition of music in pubs
From: Jock Morris
Date: 16 May 02 - 04:26 AM

So a government official has stated that "there is no tradition of music in pubs"; now if you've been running a session for many years in a particular pub then you can now quote this to any official who trys to stop it by demanding a PEL and argue that you have a tradition of holding this session, but seeing as there is no tradition of music in pubs the session cannot be music and therefore doesn't require a PEL. QED:-)

Alternatively, why doesn't England just adopt the Scottish system where sessions are not a problem?

Scott

Subject: RE: OFFICIAL No tradition of music in pubs
From: The Shambles
Date: 16 May 02 - 08:01 PM

Yes why don't we adopt the Scottish system?

The chap who made the remark is a official of the Local Government Association. He is not a Government official but does advise the Government on behalf of the local authorities.

Many would already state that it cannot be music or entertainment.

Subject: RE: OFFICIAL No tradition of music in pubs
From: GUEST,DaveTnova
Date: 17 May 02 - 03:43 AM

According to the tourists boards latest adds all englishmen are eccentric, throw wellies and DANCE IN TRAFALGAR SQUARE. Perhaps someone should tell the authorities.

Subject: RE: OFFICIAL No tradition of music in pubs
From: Escamillo
Date: 17 May 02 - 05:33 AM

I've followed this discussion with interest but can't have an opinion on a matter of cultural policies of a government in a country like the UK. I can only express my concern about a fact that somehow limits personal rights and access to art and its social influence. Hope that things will change.

Un abrazo - Andrés

Subject: RE: OFFICIAL No tradition of music in pubs
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 17 May 02 - 05:53 AM

I decided to challenge Mr Tiffney on such a fatuous statment.

Dear Mr Tiffney,

In the many debates about the PEL laws, the statement "There is no tradition of folk music in pubs in England and Wales" has been associated with you. Firstly I would like you confirm that this is your opinion and if so ask you for the basis of your belief.

During the 1950's the BBC embarked on a project to send collectors out to record some of the last of the older generation of traditional singers. With very few exceptions (usually caused by the feebleness of old age) singers were recorded in pubs where they were used to singing.

In the book "A Song For Every Season" (Heinlen), Bob Copper (a member of a family of singers going back over 200 years and one the BBC collectors) tells how the various songs would be sung in the pubs throughout the year.

Even in towns and cities, many pubs still have a piano which is (or was) used to lead the singing of songs, which although not strictly traditional, have become part of the folk singer's repertoire.

Finally can you think of any other venue that the following songs would have been suitable for ?

GOOD ALE THOU ART MY DARLING.
JOHN BARLEYCORN (There are many versions - the tune of "We Plough the Fields and Scatter" was borrowed from one).
DRINK OLD ENGLAND DRY.
FATHOM THE BOWL.
ALE, ALE, GLORIOUS ALE.
THE BARLEY MOW.
I HAVE DRUNK ONE AND I WILL DRINK TWO.
BRING US IN GOOD ALE.
THE OLD DUN COW.
DRINK, BOYS, DRINK.
JONES' ALE.
LITTLE BROWN JUG.
NOTTINGAM ALE.

These are merely a small tithe of traditional drinking songs, and of course many others exist which don't mention drinking in the title. Even AWAY WITH RUM was not meant to be taken seriously.

Dave Bryant

Subject: RE: OFFICIAL No tradition of music in pubs
From: clansfolk
Date: 17 May 02 - 06:36 AM

just set up a new web site as a central point for info on PEL - remember the two in a bar rule is a bonus! if you sing or play or entertain virtually anywhere else you will need a PEL however many people play/sing/dance/etc. what about our whistling milkman?

Any links (Mudcat is already there!) - or information you would like adding just email me

The link for the site is http://www.twoinabar.co.uk and is only 3 days old so there is a LOT of room for expansion......

Pete

[e-mail]

Subject: RE: OFFICIAL No tradition of music in pubs
From: Watson
Date: 17 May 02 - 06:46 AM

Just to help - Two in a Bar.

Subject: RE: OFFICIAL No tradition of music in pubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 May 02 - 07:04 AM

Thanks clansfolk - looks useful. I've emailed you a link to a song I wrote about this, which anyone is welcome to use if it seems helpful.

Subject: RE: OFFICIAL No tradition of music in pubs
From: The Shambles
Date: 17 May 02 - 08:14 AM

Fine site - and many thanks for the hard work and positive action, it could really make a difference.

Subject: RE: OFFICIAL No tradition of music in pubs
From: Grab
Date: 17 May 02 - 08:45 AM

McGrath, according to that site you pointed me at, anyone can sign an EDM. However...

"In general, Ministers and Whips do not sign EDMs, and some Ministers have taken a dim view of their Parliamentary Private Secretaries' doing so."

Graham.

Subject: RE: OFFICIAL No tradition of music in pubs
From: sian, west wales
Date: 17 May 02 - 09:15 AM

Shambles

I have a meeting of Trac (Welsh trad. music development agency) on the weekend and I am hoping to bring this up. I hope I've collated some of the relevant points from the various threads but if you have your own compilation, I'd appreciate having them by 4.30p.m today (to [e-mail])

Sian

Subject: RE: OFFICIAL No tradition of music in pubs
From: clansfolk
Date: 18 May 02 - 01:05 PM

McGrath

checked song out will add it to Two in a bar website (might be nice to have a section just on related songs?) anybody else????

Did you sing it at Fylde last year?????? I seem to recall someone at the John Bond singaround at the Mount Friday doing a song like it...

Pete