Will you write an Email for Shambles?

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: Alice
Date: 28 Aug 01 - 03:44 PM

"curtailing pleasures and pastimes" is a phrase that lets me know that they are starting to understand the problem and communicating to you that they may understand the problem. A list of times, dates, and incidents that substantiate that the law is "curtailing pleasures and pastimes" should be sent to the "appropriate Govt departments". I know the Cove incident has already been written about. What other specific incidents do they need? Still, isn't their interpretation of the law different than other towns that don't have a problem with musical "pleasures and pastimes"?

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: The Shambles
Date: 28 Aug 01 - 04:33 PM

They have had the comments of more than one musician for over eight months. I now doubt if they have even read them, let alone collate or pass them on to the Government

We have our MPs to do this anyway.

We do not need this small West Country council to do anything other than address the problem they have created by ignoring musicians interests and by now ignoring a Government Minister's answer to the specific question of who decides if members of the public are performers.

They have tried to hide behind the law and passed the buck for all this time and now will decide when comments from musicians are "sufficient" enough for them to pass on?

Is this really the only constructive measure they can come up with, to deal with the effect their own policy is having on traditional events?

Alice they now understand the size of the problem. But only because many good folk like yourself have taken the time and trouble to point it out to them.

They cannot change the law and are not even offering to try, only to pass on the comments we have sent to them on to someone else, to deal with.

All they need to do is use the quite staggering powers of discretion they have demonstrated to me over this period, to try and enable folk events instead of stretching their interpretation of the law to prevent them.........

To add weight to any points we could do with examples of cutailments/ infringements rather than unsustantiated statements.

Who do they think they are and who do they think they are talking to?

The only curtailments/ infringments that will be going to central government are the ones that they alone are responsible for.....These will be substantiated I can assure them........Rant over...........

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: The Shambles
Date: 28 Aug 01 - 04:45 PM

After reading Roger's reply from Mr Grainger I really do not think that it is worth wasting time in sending any more emails to the officers.

Emails to the councillors (copied to the local paper) may stir them into questioning the officer's actions. The councillors after all have now endorsed the officers actions as policy. They will have to defend the policy to those that would elect them.

The councillors contact details can be found here..Weymouth and Portland Borough Council.

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Aug 01 - 04:48 PM

I've had Mr Gilmour's standard reply, about the Yetties performing in the Bolshoi Ballet or whatever. Here is the reply I've sent him:

Dear Mr Gilmour

I'm sure Weymouth is a delightful place and Weymouth Council is keen on promoting the arts. But that isn't what I asked.

My query in my email of August 18th was whether the council has a policy in place that regards informal music sessions, in pubs or in other places as "public entertainment" which requires there to be a PEL (except in the case in a pub where the two-in-a-bar exemption applies).

In my second email on August 25th I simplified the question, and asked: "Am I right in understanding that there are in fact no circumstances in which it is possible to sing or play a musical instrument, (apart from the case where this is being done within a private home with no visitors, or in the course of a music lesson), when this will not be counted as "public entertainment" by Weymouth Council?"

Your statement that "the Council did not make the law, but is required to enforce it" does not really answer either question. However from your response I take it that the answer to both questions is "yes". In other words, noone can make music or sing (except within a private home), except where a Public Entertainment Licence has been obtained. Presumably this includes carol singers, aside from church carol services.

It appears to me that the council has misunderstood the law in this matter. The law does not require that, when a group of friends, (or indeed a single individual in a coffee bar for example) make music or sing for their own enjoyment, this should be treated as constituting ipso facto a "public entertainment".

At least this appears to be how the law in question was understood when, in the House of Lords on December 11th, the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Bassam of Brighton), replying on behalf of HM Government to a question from The Lord Bishop of Oxford, said "Whether members of the public who sing on licensed premises count as performers is a matter for the licensing authority to decide, depending on the circumstances".

Moreover Weymouth's position doesn't seem in the spirit Home Office circular 13/2000, which says "The purpose of licence conditions is to ensure safety, minimise nuisance and prevent crime and disorder. The nature of any conditions that are attached to a licence inevitably varies according to the venue, the event and local considerations. But there are concerns that some conditions are excessive, that they replicate other regulations or are inappropriate to the premises or event. Compliance with conditions clearly adds to the cost of the licence and it is therefore important that local authorities ensure that they are reasonable."

In any case, it appears that for the time being Weymouth Council policy is to exclude the possibility of informal musicmaking without a PEL. So until this policy has been changed, or until it has been overturned in court as inconsistent with other legislation relating to human rights, Weymouth is clearly not the place to go to if you value the freedom to do this, as part of your holiday.

If I have misunderstood the position in any way, please let me know, so that I can correct the information which I will include on my website and pass on to prospective visitors to our shores. I will tell people that though Weymouth is undoubtedly "an enlightened and fun loving council ", especially if they want to go and listen to other people being paid to make music, it is not the place to go if they wish to make music themselves just for their own enjoyment, and without any payment.

Yours

Kevin McGrath

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: The Shambles
Date: 28 Aug 01 - 05:05 PM

This thread is a bit big to load now.

Write an email for Shambles Part 2

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Aug 01 - 05:08 PM

Remember, while what we say may not be seen as worth running as a story, what is said to use by officials and by politicians is much more likely to be seen as newsworthy. That is one reason why it is always worth keeping on writing the letters, even though the answers are laughable.

And one letter leads to another - I would think that Tom Grainger's reply to Roger of Sheffield would be the springboard for a letter to Lord Bassem, asking him what he thinks about the way that Weymouth Council evidently regards his advice as so insignificant.

Again, as Shanmbles poiints out "They will have to defend the policy to those that would elect them." So what is the position as regards music and singing as part of an elctoral public meeting?

Weymouth Campaign for Live Music, which is plannig to put up candidates at the next local election in defence of our right to have music sessions."

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Aug 01 - 05:11 PM

That last paragraph went wrong:

For example: "No, thisd is not a music session as such. This is a meeting organised by the Weymouth Campaign for Live Music, which is planning to put up candidates at the next local election in defence of our right to have music sessions."

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: The Shambles
Date: 28 Aug 01 - 05:20 PM

PART TWO HERE

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: Kimberlin
Date: 28 Aug 01 - 05:48 PM

As a public servant employed by Weymouth Council (but not in licensing) I am probably one of the few people to agree that if a licence is required by any pub due to mplaying of music than that requirement should be enforced universally whatever the background to the case. If you do not enforce rules universally, but only when you feel like it, anarchy entails. By this I mean that once you enforce it for one pub you must enforce it for all.

However that said this law is absolutely ridiculous as it is written (ie without an amateur performer exclusion) as it means every pub requires the licence as you can guarantee that more than once a year "happy birthday" will be sung and "Auld lang syne" will be rendered at new year.

The law needs to be changed to exclude all amateur performances from the scope of the law whether it is new music or traditional music. The fact that through this forum we support folk & roots music is irrelevant to the argument - the key factor is whether the performers are being paid whether they are playing folk, rock, reggae, jazz, Bangra, classical or whatever. All musicians whatever it is that they play should support a campaign to keep live, amateur, music venues open and unlicensed other than for sensible items such as noise levels and safety matters.

However before that change occurs a campaign needs to be aimed at the Local Government Association in the hope that an agreed national code of practice can be issued for the UK that means all local authorities interpret the rules in the same way particularly if, as seems sensible, an agreement is reached nationally that enforcement of the need for a PEL does not occur where the musicians/dancers are unpaid and any collection made on the night for dancing etc goes 100% to charity and not "club" funds.

The law is stupid but so is the current erratic policy regarding enforcement and I am sure as many people will be annoyed if they find their Council is not collecting revenue it could collect as are currently annoyed by what they see as over zealous enforcement of the current stupidly worded law!!!

I certainly hope that my Council tax is being kept down through the persuit of income by relevant officials of both the County and the District Councils - hence the dilemma raised by this daft Act of Parliament!

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: Gareth
Date: 28 Aug 01 - 07:09 PM

Kimberlin - see my answer on the part TWO thread

PART 2 HERE

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: GUEST,_gargoyle
Date: 29 Aug 01 - 02:53 AM

Shambles....thank you

I have written....and expressed my view to your counsel

The law .... IS THE LAW !!! .... it MUST be UPHELD !!!! .... or we will quickly descend into anarchy.

Without the law .... there would be no "copyright-police," or "guilds" or "unions" .... my GOD man .... without the "LAW" there would be no-one who could tell "mad max" what he can....or cannot post on his little MC site.

Have you lost ALL respect for authority????

Come to your senses QUICK!!!

Sincerely,

Gargoyle