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Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)

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GUEST,Ron Davies 02 Sep 05 - 12:15 PM
GUEST,Jon 02 Sep 05 - 12:18 PM
Cluin 02 Sep 05 - 12:26 PM
GUEST,Ron Davies 02 Sep 05 - 12:30 PM
dianavan 02 Sep 05 - 12:34 PM
GUEST,Guy Who Thinks 02 Sep 05 - 12:42 PM
CarolC 02 Sep 05 - 12:47 PM
GUEST,Guy Who Thinks 02 Sep 05 - 12:52 PM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Sep 05 - 01:10 PM
freda underhill 02 Sep 05 - 01:16 PM
Cluin 02 Sep 05 - 01:20 PM
katlaughing 02 Sep 05 - 01:24 PM
Amos 02 Sep 05 - 01:28 PM
Dave (the ancient mariner) 02 Sep 05 - 01:28 PM
CarolC 02 Sep 05 - 01:33 PM
CarolC 02 Sep 05 - 01:34 PM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Sep 05 - 01:41 PM
katlaughing 02 Sep 05 - 01:45 PM
Amos 02 Sep 05 - 01:56 PM
Dave (the ancient mariner) 02 Sep 05 - 02:04 PM
Peace 02 Sep 05 - 02:07 PM
Peter T. 02 Sep 05 - 02:07 PM
Ebbie 02 Sep 05 - 02:12 PM
artbrooks 02 Sep 05 - 02:18 PM
MissouriMud 02 Sep 05 - 04:01 PM
CarolC 02 Sep 05 - 04:17 PM
Dave (the ancient mariner) 02 Sep 05 - 04:19 PM
Cluin 02 Sep 05 - 04:27 PM
CarolC 02 Sep 05 - 04:33 PM
Ebbie 02 Sep 05 - 04:35 PM
Amos 02 Sep 05 - 04:52 PM
CarolC 02 Sep 05 - 04:58 PM
MissouriMud 02 Sep 05 - 05:02 PM
GUEST,Guy Who Thinks 02 Sep 05 - 05:03 PM
CarolC 02 Sep 05 - 05:21 PM
Don Firth 02 Sep 05 - 05:30 PM
Dave (the ancient mariner) 02 Sep 05 - 05:34 PM
Wesley S 02 Sep 05 - 05:40 PM
Bev and Jerry 02 Sep 05 - 05:46 PM
Peace 02 Sep 05 - 05:54 PM
GUEST,Guy Who Thinks 02 Sep 05 - 05:54 PM
Bill D 02 Sep 05 - 06:00 PM
CarolC 02 Sep 05 - 06:11 PM
Ebbie 02 Sep 05 - 06:16 PM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Sep 05 - 06:28 PM
Alan Day 02 Sep 05 - 06:43 PM
GUEST,Peter Woodruff 02 Sep 05 - 06:56 PM
Azizi 02 Sep 05 - 06:57 PM
Peace 02 Sep 05 - 07:00 PM
CarolC 02 Sep 05 - 07:14 PM
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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 12:15 PM

Guy Who Thinks--

Do the words "starkly different" mean anything to you?


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 12:18 PM

According to the BBC news site President George Bush has condemned the initial response to Hurricane Katrina as "not acceptable"


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Cluin
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 12:26 PM

As soon as they can find an "ism" to attach to it, there'll be stronger language. But how can Dubya whip up some strong rhetoric against an "act of God"? I thought he was waiting for those four horsemen anyway?


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 12:30 PM

He's a little late saying that. And it's just possible that he himself could have done just a bit more to make it "acceptable". For instance, breaking his neck and the budget--- (they're emergency expenditures, so considered outside the budget anyway),-- just so people could not make invidious comparisons, as done by the Journal.

He may never run again,, but his fellow Bushites are up next year in the House and some in the Senate. And the US is already plenty unhappy with the performance of our chosen leaders.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: dianavan
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 12:34 PM

In response to Diane Sawyers question about victims of the hurricane looting to provide the necessities of life, GWB replied, "I will not tolerate looting!"

I think that most people took their jewels with them when they left New Orleans. Besides that, what use are soggy valuables to those who have already fled. Seems better to let the victims "loot" whatever they think they need to survive. Better to target the roving gangs of armed bandits. Leave the poor victims alone.

Trouble with Bush is he thinks everything is black or white. This is symptomatic of a personality disorder.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 12:42 PM

"Starkly different" in what way? And why? The quote doesn't say in any detail. I think it was "starkly different" mainly in the nature of the destruction and the area affected. (No Florida city was 80% drowned, leaving tens of thousands of hard to reach survivors; also, I believe the overall area of obliteration in was much smaller than the hurricane area on the Gulf Coast.

I have to rate the Governor's failure to condemn the level of the federal response as more telling than a newspaper cliche. She doesn't even really condemn the slowness of the response. All she says it that it was "slower than we hoped." If she thought there was deliberate foot-dragging, or even just thoroughgoing incompetence, why wouldn't she speak out in justified outrage? As you say, she's of no political consequence to Bush, so what has she got to lose? And on the other side of the ledger, she might revive her seemingly defunct political career by speaking out as strongly as she possibly can.

It could still happen, and if it does I'll acknowledge that I've been a gullible fool. Who hasn't at some time or another?


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 12:47 PM

117 semis, GUEST,G? That quite obviously didn't come anywhere close to the kind of immediate response that was needed. And one of the things that should have been done was to provide transportation out of the area for the people who had no way to evacuate.

Where the hell were all the school busses, church busses, Greyhound busses, prison busses, National Guard trucks and other kinds of conveyances? Why were they not put into service to get those poor people out of there?


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 12:52 PM

As has been vividly reported by both CNN and Fox, virtually all such buses and other vehicles in the area before the storm are under water or destroyed.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 01:10 PM

Delays in response are important - but such delays are just an inevitable result of not having planned and prepared in advance, and it is that failure which is the real scandal, and it tells an awful lot about the society in which it happens, and about the political culture that it tolerates.

There was a lot about how 911 should be a wake-up call for America - but so far as predictable environmental disasters are concerned, a lot of powerful people seem to have stayed fast asleep. Maybe, as the truth about this terrible episode sinks in, Americans are going to wake up and do something effective about the system they have allowed to take over their country.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: freda underhill
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 01:16 PM

try putting the word "failure" into google, for an interesting comment on all this.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Cluin
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 01:20 PM

NObody is ever prepared for such a disaster, no matter how much planning is done beforehand or how much prediction or advice was there on the probability of something like this occurring. Until it happens, it is pretty much inconceivable to the bulk of people and is pretty low on their list of priorities in their day-to-day life.

Still, the Bush administration sure seemed to sit on their hands a long time before taking action. Hopefully, something will be learned from this tragedy by more than the terrorists the American government has been concentrating so much attention on these past few years.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 01:24 PM

LOL, freda!! I LOVE the first thing that came up!! Suits to a "T"!


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 01:28 PM

Of interest, in addition the 9-11-01 article in Popular Science, is the following from October 2004, which predicted most of the current event, in the National Geographic:
Article on N.O. and environment.

"Thousands drowned in the murky brew that was soon contaminated by sewage and industrial waste. Thousands more who survived the flood later perished from dehydration and disease as they waited to be rescued. It took two months to pump the city dry, and by then the Big Easy was buried under a blanket of putrid sediment, a million people were homeless, and 50,000 were dead. It was the worst natural disaster in the history of the United States.

When did this calamity happen? It hasn't—yet. But the doomsday scenario is not far-fetched. The Federal Emergency Management Agency lists a hurricane strike on New Orleans as one of the most dire threats to the nation, up there with a large earthquake in California or a terrorist attack on New York City. Even the Red Cross no longer opens hurricane shelters in the city, claiming the risk to its workers is too great"


Regards,

A


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 01:28 PM

I seriously doubt Mr Bush delayed anything, it takes a lot to asssemble and deploy any major relief project. Very few countries in the world could do what has already been done by the Federal US Government. The simple fact is a major hurricane did to New orleans what was predicted, stop pissing on your president and do something to help.

Yours, Aye. Dave


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 01:33 PM

GUEST,Guy Who Thinks, I was talking about BEFORE the storm hit, during the MANDATORY evacuation.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 01:34 PM

(P.S., Guy Who Thinks... I think you need a new screen name.)


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 01:41 PM

Very few countries in the world could do what has already been done by the Federal US Government.

I rather think there are very few rich countries that would fail to do what the Federal US Government failed to do in preparing for a totally predictable disaster, and one which had been predicted.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 01:45 PM

(My emphasis) Originally published in the "Houston Chronicle" Dec. 1, 2001:
New Orleans is sinking.

And its main buffer from a hurricane, the protective Mississippi River delta, is quickly eroding away, leaving the historic city perilously close to disaster. So vulnerable in fact, that earlier this year the Federal Emergency Management Agency ranked the potential damage to New Orleans as among the three likeliest, most catastrophic disasters facing this country.

The other two? A massive earthquake in San Francisco, and, almost prophetically, a terrorist attack on New York City.


This is from an article at Yahoo News, just a snippet:

Several experts also believe the decision to make FEMA a part of the Department of Homeland Security, created after the September 11, 2001 attacks, was a major mistake. Rubin said FEMA functioned well in the 1990s as a small, independent agency.

"Under DHS, it was downgraded, buried in a couple of layers of bureaucracy, and terrorism prevention got all the attention and most of the funds," she said.

Former FEMA director James Lee Witt testified to Congress in March 2004: "I am extremely concerned that the ability of our nation to prepare for and respond to disasters has been sharply eroded.

"I hear from emergency managers, local and state leaders, and first responders nearly every day that the FEMA they knew and worked well with has now disappeared. In fact one state emergency manager told me, 'It is like a stake has been driven into the heart of emergency management,"' he said.

Underlying the situation has been the general reluctance of government at any level to invest in infrastructure or emergency management, said David McEntire, who teaches emergency management at the University of North Texas.

"No-one cares about disasters until they happen. That is a political fact of life," he said.

"Emergency management is woefully underfunded in this nation. That covers not only first responders but also warning, evacuation, damage assessment, volunteer management, donation management and recovery and mitigation issues," he said.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 01:56 PM

United Nations offers disaster assistance to U.S.
CTV.ca News Staff

A special United Nations task force is on standby ready to be dispatched to the U.S. to help in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs announced Friday.

UN spokeswoman Elizabeth Byrs said worldwide members of the UN Disaster Assessment and Coordination Center UNDAC were aware that they could be deployed within hours.



If that ain't a world first, I dunno. Ah, tempore, ah mores.



A


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 02:04 PM

Has anyone here done anything constructive to help? or are you too busy pissing and whining about your government?


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Peace
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 02:07 PM

Many places are offering aid. Just waiting for Washington to say yes.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Peter T.
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 02:07 PM

Looks like John Bolton is getting the job done at the U.N., making it more relevant to America's priorities!!!

yours,

Peter T.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 02:12 PM

Not to put ideas into anyone's head, but now would be an excellent time for any terrorists to strike. Anywhere in the US.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: artbrooks
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 02:18 PM

The answer to a lot of these questions is that it's all a simple matter of logistics. For one thing, the storm destroyed all of the roads into NO except for the highway heading west. For another, the transportation (trucks, busses, etc.) has to be obtained...and this is a matter of getting drivers and mechanics and other support people...and oh yeah, gas. Since all of the filling stations in southern Louisiana and Mississippi are either destroyed or under water, they will also need tanker trucks. For yet another thing, they can't take people to an evacuation site until that place is prepared to accept them. And the regular military and the Guard can't arrive immediately. They need to have some time to get ready (the Guard members all have civilian jobs that they generally can't abandon on a moment's notice), get to wherever their depot is, get loaded up...and they also have to get around the city to that single road in. Somebody suggested aircraft carriers? Well, they move along at about 30 miles an hour...not exactly fast responders.

As someone said, lets wait a bit until we start pointing fingers. And the same goes for the mayor of New Orleans and for Mr. Bush. We all know what Harry Truman's desk sign said...I guess his says "The Buck Stops There".


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: MissouriMud
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 04:01 PM

Random thoughts:

I for one am no longer buying gas if I dont have to - all that unnecessary gas I was buying for the fun of it is a thing of the past. No more back yard gas fires, the flaming moat around the house is out, and the molotov cocktail making is on hold.

CNN reported last night that some national guard units that had made it into NO were pulling back after sundown because it was dark and dangerous. I thought thats why they were going there.   Got any night vision goggles or a Coleman lantern?

A hospital ship is due to arrive at NO in 2 weeks?   Just in the nick of time.

If we knew the levees were only good for a category 3 and we knew for at least 2 days a category 4 or 5 was heading right for NO (until a last minute slight verge to the east) - how was the whole flooding thing a surprise beyond our possible antipication and ability to respond to?

How can you pusuade people to voluntarily leave their houses and businesses when they think the buildings have a chance of surviving, if you cant guarantee them that their surviving stuff wont be looted and trashed after the storm has passed.

How can you blame people for breaking into stores and houses when they dont have food or water?

How come the Astrodome is turning away people after taking only 11,000? Didnt it used to hold over 40,000?

Lets blame all those people who didnt have transportation, were in the hospitals or disabled etc for not evacuating - Oh but we dont want to point fingers do we?

A kid commandeerd a school bus and drove it with a load of refugees to Texas   - can we find some more of those buses please - drivers not needed

We cant evacuate people becuase snipers are making it dangerous - so we are just leaving them to die?

How can FEMA not be aware of 3000 people stuck at the convention center? Even if the city didnt tell them they were sending people there, the people are mostly in plain sight outside right near the center of town. - Oh yes I forgot - FEMA was concentrating on the people at the SuperDome -Huh??? concentrating WHAT on them?

If CNN can have well rested, well dressed and well fed looking crews broadcasting all over the place since day 1 so we can all see what is going on - why cant the government get their people, equipment and supplies in to the same places?


If CNN can have well rested, well dressed and well fed looking crews broadcasting all over the place since day 1 so we can all see what is going on -- what is all this stuff put out by the emergency agencies about about their biggest problem being lack communication capability. Is our emergency communication system dependent on cell phones and D cell powered walky talkies? Should the government folks be watching CNN instead of doing news conferences where they complain about poor communications?


If CNN can have well rested, well dressed and well fed looking crews broadcasting all over the place since day 1 so we can all see what is going on - why doesnt CNN start taking food and water in along with their people? Don't want to become "part of the story" I guess.

If this is an example of our new post 9/11 emergency response capabilities - where we at least had fair warning   - what is going to happen with a really unexpected catastrophe - earthquake in Chicago, dirty bomb in Denver etc..   If we cant depend on government to provide a reasonably timely and effective response to these things shouldn't we just expect to have to fall back on the every man for him/her-self approach?   Glad I have my trusty sling shot at home.

This is all covered by insurance - right?


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 04:17 PM

They drilled for this long before Katrina, and part of the drill was to put into service busses and trains to help evacuate people (BEFORE the storm hit) who had no other means of leaving. Why in hell didn't they use the plans they already had for this?

The logistics were entirely possible. They could have easily commandeered school busses, and even church busses, and even trains. National Guard people could have been used as bus drivers and to help set up and run the pickup sites. Radio and TV stations could have been used to get the word out about the pickup locations. (Remember the emergency tests we hear from time to time on the radio and TV? This is exactly the sort of thing they do that for.). They drilled for just this sort of thing. It was entirely doable.

So why wasn't it done?

One possibility that springs to mind is the fact that a large percentage of the National Guard from the states affected are currently in Iraq.

This puts responsibility directly on Bush.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 04:19 PM

The Canadian Coast Guard and Navy are responding, even though we are a long way from New Orleans. Time to help and render aid not whine and complain. This forum has degenerated into something that puts me off staying. I have not been on much over the last few years, and times like this remind me why. At one time there would have been at least five threads on where and how we could help all now all are dedicated to Bush bashing.

Yours, Aye. Dave (disgusted)


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Cluin
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 04:27 PM

What else did you expect to find in a thread titled "Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina", Dave?

There IS a thread "Hurricane Relief: How can I help?"... why do you need five?


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 04:33 PM

Dave (tam), it's easy for you to say that because you do not have to be a part of watching your own country be destroyed by the very people who have been elected to protect and defend it. We aren't complaining. We are having a much needed talk about what has gone wrong, what will most probably gone wrong in the future, who is responsible for it, and what we can do about it.

If your stomach is to delicate for this sort of conversation, you are perfectly welcome to not read it.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 04:35 PM

Dave, the ancient mariner - and anyone else - who is railing about our 'pissing and moaning' and moaning themselves about our doing nothing but piss and moan- how the hell do you know what we are or are not doing? Just what can we do besides send money? My guess is that we have sent LOTS of it. NOW is not a good time to head to the region- we too would have to be fed and housed and pottied. So, of course, we complain about the obvious lack of support that people down there are experiencing. People are dying down there.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 04:52 PM

The NY Times joins the ranks of pissers and moaners:

"I don't think this is a simple tale of incompetence. The reason the military wasn't rushed in to help along the Gulf Coast is, I believe, the same reason nothing was done to stop looting after the fall of Baghdad. Flood control was neglected for the same reason our troops in Iraq didn't get adequate armor.

At a fundamental level, I'd argue, our current leaders just aren't serious about some of the essential functions of government. They like waging war, but they don't like providing security, rescuing those in need or spending on preventive measures. And they never, ever ask for shared sacrifice.

Yesterday Mr. Bush made an utterly fantastic claim: that nobody expected the breach of the levees. In fact, there had been repeated warnings about exactly that risk.

So America, once famous for its can-do attitude, now has a can't-do government that makes excuses instead of doing its job. And while it makes those excuses, Americans are dying. "

Paul Krugman editorial 9-2-05


A


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 04:58 PM

AND, Dave (tam), it is we, the US taxpayers who are paying for this incompetence, through the nose, and at the expense of things you, yourself, can take for granted, but we do not have, like universal health care. So quit whining yourself. If you don't like seeing us talk about it, maybe you should just go away.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: MissouriMud
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 05:02 PM

Sri Lanka is sending aid!


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 05:03 PM

CarolC, I'm so used to seeing sarcasm and inve3ctive from you instead of anything truly constructive that I'm afraid my eyes slipped over the final words of your post.

It would have been a most ingenious idea to drive all those state-owned buses out of the area so as to be able to use them to bring supplies back in. However....

I have not seen any evidence that anybody thought of this (forgive me if I missed it and please provide the reference).

Moreover, I'm doubt that it would have made much difference. The emergency response vehicles, FEMA has calimed, were brought as close to the expected devastation area as possible before the storm hit. Too close and the relief formations would have been paralyzed too.
So even if the buses had been driven that distance, it would have taken them exactly as long to get back into town.

So...no new screen name.

One very important point may not have been addressed yet, and this may really be crucial to any evaluation of how this crisis was handled. As of Monday night, it looked as though the levees had held; they didn't fail until Tuesday.

I don't know when the relief columns actually began to move, or when they were able to move (remember the giant storm, albeit weakened) was continuing to move inland).

The "thoroughgoing incompetence and lethargy" theory would gain credibilty with me if it turns out that FEMA knew that the levees were probably going to break and, at the same time, just shrugged off the danger.

On the other hand, if they did know (as they should have), yet encountered genuine logistic problems in moving, then the theory fails.

It's just too soon to know the answers yet.

Now here is something which seems to be indefensible and which no one here seems to have noticed. The Engineer colonel in charge of the long-term project to improve the levees, said on CNN that the one of the breaches occurred in a part which had already been brought up to the new specifications! In other words, the "improved" levee would have been no better than the old one!

This is indeed a scandal that has nothing to do with race or class or any similar explanation. It does suggest unspeakable stupidity at various governmental levels. As a national scandal, it could make Watergate look pretty tame.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 05:21 PM

CarolC, I'm so used to seeing sarcasm and inve3ctive from you instead of anything truly constructive that I'm afraid my eyes slipped over the final words of your post.

Excuses, excuses. I think you are projecting your own bad habits onto me. And apparantly you are still not reading what I am writing.

I said evacuate people. Evacuate means transport people out of the area. Not leave them there and bring supplies to them. I did not say use busses to bring supplies in. And they did drill for such an emergency, but (my bad), it appears that the drills did not include the kinds of evacuations I am talking about. However, at least one emergency management expert is in agreement with what I am saying about what was possible to do, but was not done...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050902/ts_nm/weather_katrina_criticism_dc

"Computer models developed at Louisiana State University and other institutions made detailed projections of what would happen if water flowed over the levees protecting the city or if they failed.

In July 2004, more than 40 federal, state, local and volunteer organizations practiced this very scenario in a five-day simulation code-named 'Hurricane Pam,' where they had to deal with an imaginary storm that destroyed over half a million buildings in New Orleans and forced the evacuation of a million residents.

At the end of the exercise Ron Castleman, regional director for the Federal Emergency Management Agency declared: 'We made great progress this week in our preparedness efforts.

'Disaster response teams developed action plans in critical areas such as search and rescue, medical care, sheltering, temporary housing, school restoration and debris management. These plans are essential for quick response to a hurricane but will also help in other emergencies,' he said.

In light of that, said disaster expert Bill Waugh of Georgia State University, 'It's inexplicable how unprepared for the flooding they were.' He said a slow decline over several years in funding for emergency management was partly to blame.

In comments on Thursday, President George W. Bush said, 'I don't think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees.'

But Louisiana State University engineer Joseph Suhayda and others have warned for years that defenses could fail. In 2002, the New Orleans Times Picayune published a five-part series on "The Big One" examining what might happen if they did.

SCENARIO LAID OUT

It predicted that 200,000 people or more would be unwilling or unable to heed evacuation orders and thousands would die, that people would be housed in the Superdome, that aid workers would find it difficult to gain access to the city as roads became impassable, as well as many other of the consequences that actually unfolded after Katrina hit this week.

Craig Marks who runs Blue Horizons Consulting, an emergency management training company in North Carolina, said the authorities had mishandled the evacuation, neglecting to help those without transportation to leave the city.

'They could have packed people on trains or buses and gotten them out before the hurricane struck.
They had enough time and access to federal funds. And now, we find we do not have a proper emergency communications infrastructure so aid workers get out into the field and they can't talk to one another,' he said.

Most of those trapped by the floods in the city of some 500,000 people are the poor who had little chance to leave."


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 05:30 PM

There is a certain element of "blame the victim" here. The evacuation plans that the city of New Orleans had in place for situations such as this hurricane were predicated on the idea of everybody having their own transportation. There was neither plan for nor last minute emergency mobilization of public transportation for those who, for various reasons, were simply, physically, unable to evacuate. So the obvious result of this is that those who are stranded in the city are predominantly low income, unemployed, elderly, and ill.

I venture to suggest that had those who were stranded been in much higher tax brackets, even if, disbelieving the danger, they had ignored the orders to evacuate, the response of the authorities, both local and national, would have been quite brisk rather than next to non-existent.

Hugo Chavez, President of Venezuala, despite having recently had a bullseye painted on his chest by the Right Reverent Pat Robertson, has authorized $1,000,000 of Venezuelan funds to be sent to the United States for hurricane relief. At the same time, he was a bit critical of George W. Bush's response to the emergency. Chavez referred to Bush as "The King of Vacations."

Points to ponder:

I live in Seattle. Offshore of Oregon, Washington, and British Columbia, the Juan de Fuca plate is slowly sliding under the North American plate. This is the action of plate tectonics that produced the Cascade mountain range and is responsible for the rumblings under Mt. Baker and the recent eruptions of Mt. St. Helens. We keep hearing that, although it shows no signs at the moment and has not for centuries, Mt. Rainier is still active and can erupt at any time with disastrous results for the whole area. We also hear about "The Big One," an earthquake in excess of magnitude 9 (complete with tsunami on the coast), which would quite probably do to the greater Seattle area, or anywhere along the Juan de Fuca fault, what a similar quake did to Anchorage, Alaska back it the early Sixties. The word is "it isn't a matter of if, it's a matter of when." Even Missouri is not safe from earthquakes. One of the worst earthquakes on record happened there in the 1800s. It was so violent that it changed the course of the Mississippi river and rang church bells as far away as Boston.

Okay, this area hasn't had a quake as big as the predicted one for about 300 years, so, we are told, "it is imminent." In California, there is the ominous San Andreas fault that keeps sliding, sliding sliding, with a fair number of tributaries and other faults (as Lex Luthor said to Superman in the first "Superman" movie starring the late Christopher Reeve, "We all have our faults. Mine are in California.")   

My wife was born in Fairbury, Nebraska. I've been there with her a few times, visiting some of her relatives there and in north-central Kansas. One night while I was there, there was a tornado warning. I sat there in the house listening to the wind howling outside and wondering if we should all head toward the basement. That area is right in the middle of what is known as "tornado alley." After I saw the movie "Jaws," I decided I wanted to move to Kansas, but after that, I changed my mind.

Florida and the surrounding area (East Coast, the Gulf) gets several destructive hurricanes a year, as we have seen, especially in recent years.

And then, if that western half of La Palmas in the Canary Islands slides off into the ocean as the geologists tell us "is not a matter of if, it's a matter of when," a 700 foot tsunami is expected to surge out from the epicenter, do some real dirt to the coasts of western Europe, and roar across the Atlantic, taking out the east coast of North America, much of the Gulf of Mexico including the Caribbean islands, and a fair swath of the east coast of South America. On the U. S. East Coast, the wave is projected to go as far inland as twelve miles at various points.

Parable:    Elmo Nervosa decided that one of the few places in the world that would be relatively safe from natural disasters would probably be the Arizona desert. Then walking one warm night, breathing the clear, clean air, and gazing at the glory of the stars, he was struck by a meteorite about the size of a piece of pea-gravel traveling at an estimated 17,000 miles per hour, or roughly ten times the velocity of a rifle bullet. He never knew what hit him. Those who found his remains weren't too sure either. Due to the hydrostatic pressure of being hit by a projectile traveling at such a high velocity, he literally exploded. All they found were some bits of skin, a puddle of miscellaneous bodily fluids, and a sufficient number of teeth to identify him through his dental records.

Granted, it's not too bright to build on a flood plain, in a slide area, or somewhere prone to forest and brush fires, but where on earth are you going to live that's really safe?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 05:34 PM

CarolC you are absolutely right, I should, and will.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Wesley S
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 05:40 PM

Don - I grew up on the west coast of Florida near a piece of land called Sand Key { just south of Clearwater Beach }. It's covered with nice ritzy condo's. I'm not sure if anyone has bothered to tell the snowbird residents that the entire key was formed by a hurricane early in the 1900's. It's a sand bar - nothing else. And the next hurricane could easily take it out.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 05:46 PM

Don:

Believe it or not, that question was the subject of a federal government study done in the late 1970s. At that time, the Department of Energy was heavily funding research into solar electric power (Reagan put an end to that in 1981). They were comtemplating building a huge photovoltaic array similar in power output to a typical fossil fuel power plant - perhaps one thousand megawatts. The initial investment would have been very large but the money would have been largely recovered over twenty to thirty years from the electricity generated. But, it was feared that a natural disaster could wipe out the array long before the money was recovered.

So, they initiated a study to see where in the U.S. they could build it with the least chance of destruction by a natural disaster. They studied the history of earthquakes, tornados, hurricanes, volcanos and maybe other things. The answer? Among the locations with sufficient sunshine, Southern Utah had the smallest probability of a natural disaster large enough to destroy the project.

Bev and Jerry


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Peace
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 05:54 PM

I trust that Condi Rice's shoes are comfortable. Would hate to think her tender tootsies are experiencing any discomfort.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 05:54 PM

Well, CarolC, maybe I do need a new screen name. If I'm reading too quickly it's because I'm a little worn out.

But I stick by what I said about sarcasm and invective. Dave(the ancient mariner) is your latest victim.

I try to avoid sracasm except when absolutely necessary, and I never indulge in invective. That's not discussion.

Your references, however, are very worthwhile; they have some substance. Many of the people in charge are slowly being revealed as criminally incompetent. I doubt they will pay much of a penalty, but public outrage (already mounting) may light a fire under criminal idiots elsewhere who haven't yet been exposed.

I've never made excuses. I just don't like jumping to extreme conclusions.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 06:00 PM

There's a BIG difference between living somewhere that is likely to be subject to disaster on a geologic time scale, and living where daily measures have to be taken to keep you safe!

The various flood plains are well-known. Some places flood every 100 years or so...others every 5-10. It ain't so hard to set rules about what should be built in those areas. If you are likely to have 500 years between disasters, go on, build higher. If you are dodging several close calls every year or two, re-think what goes in places like that.
   New Orleans...(and San Francisco) were rated as high-risk, and in the last couple years studies were done showing almost exactly what happened this week. Johnstown, PA is another place that simply WILL be hit again.

My 'hometown' of Wichita, Kans., sits right in tornado alley, but has had only one small twister touch in the city limits. It 'may' get a hit someday, but not 2-3 close calls every year, and does not present the recovery problems that New Orleans does....

I don't like terms like "cost/benefit analysis", but in these decisions, that's the kind of analysis that is needed. Seems to me like a billion dollars a year (if we can even do it for that)just for maintenance and repair, is a bit high.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 06:11 PM

I was sorry to see Dave (tam) leave the first time, Guy Who Does Somethingorother, because I used to have quite a lot of respect for him. And I have defended him when others were attacking him, and stood up for his right to say things that others didn't agree with.

But if he's going to sit in judgement of those of us who live in this country and have to live with the consequences of the Bush administration's actions and/or inactions, simply because we are talking about what we perceive to be wrong, and if he is going to be so judgemental about it that he threatens to leave over it, he is most certainly not being victimized by me. If he is being victimized by anything, is his own judgmentalism.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 06:16 PM

Guy Who Thinks(that in itself is just a tad arrogant, don't you think?), it was not only Carol who used "sarcasm and invective" against Dtam's diatribe. Dave is a nice guy - but he warn't thinkin', imo. And right now, when our emotions are raw is not a good time to attack anybody.

The part I can't get over is that right now live people- men, women, children and babies - are living cheek by jowl to not only Destruction but to Death (there are dead, decomposing bodies floating about in the water or caught in rubble and each one of those victims has relatives and loved ones, some of whom are still there, still alive) and we have not found a way to get them all transported to a safe, comfortable place while that whole region gets sorted.

So don't tell us that we don't care.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 06:28 PM

Why just "state-owned buses"? In a real emergency everything has to be available to the aid effort, and that means public or privately owned buses irrespective. The same goes for food supplies and whatever. There is a right and a duty on the part of the people running the aid effort to commandeer whatever they need.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Alan Day
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 06:43 PM

I cannot understand why there is not a fast action response unit available for emergencies. From here (UK)we read that in this part of the USA major weather conditions are expected,they are not rare.My good friend in Florida is constantly boarding up his home during these massive storms.I know this was totaly unexpected, but it was predicted and so is the next earthquake in LA,let us hope it is not in our lifetime,but seeing a programme re 1920s only a few days ago, before this catastrophe,lessons were there for the future.
The response has been bad,there seems to be nobody running the relief
and no organisation ,even as we hear tonight as I write this.
A TV breakfast presenter who I watched on TV only two days ago is reporting from one of the sites effected,if he can make it in two days from here, then something major is wrong.
One of you wrote that the World is laughing at you,I can assure you we are not,it is too distressing.
Al


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,Peter Woodruff
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 06:56 PM

The damage was done by Bush and his heartless administration. He must never be allowed to finish his secound term or finish us off. Damn him to Hell!

Peter


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Azizi
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 06:57 PM

Bush's latest photo-op:

"The Clueless-In-Chief
by kos
Fri Sep 2nd, 2005 at 13:39:59 PDT

This would be funny if we weren't talking about real suffering. From this CNN video of Bush in Biloxi. Bush is talking to two sobbing African-American women who have lost their house, and a white guy:


Bush to women: "There's a Salvation Army center that I want to, that I'll tell you where it is, and they'll get you some help. I'm sorry.... They'll help you.....

Woman 1: "I came here looking for clothes..."

Bush: "They'll get you some clothes, at the Salvation Army center..."

Woman 1: "We don't have anything..."

Bush: "I understand.... Do you know where the center is, that I'm talking to you about?"

Guy with shades: "There's no center there, sir, it's a truck."

Bush: "There's trucks?"

Guy: "There's a school, a school about two miles away....."

Bush: "But isn't there a Salvation center down there?"

Guy: "No that's wiped out...."

Bush: "A temporary center? "

Guy: "No sir they've got a truck there, for food."

Bush: "That's what I'm saying, for food and water."

Bush turns to the sister who's been saying how she needs clothes.

Bush to sister: "You need food and water."


Damn, it reads like a Saturday Night Live skit. "


http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/9/2/163959/3853


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Peace
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 07:00 PM

Canada--specifically Alberta in this case--has handled various catastrophes. However, there is a point beyond which the management of a disaster is 'easy'. When Edmonton was struck by a tornado (loss of life about 20 people), it took literally two days to make 'order' out of chaos. The magnitude of the NO disaster will take weeks, and cleaning up months.

It's not as easy as 'send troops' or 'let's all go help'. If it was, it would have been done. Amateurs talk tactics and professionals talk logistics. The pros are talking logistics now.

I do not know why the citizens of NO were not 'forced' to leave. However, as has been noted, if the State was not prepared to enforce evacuation and back up the order with transport (order folks to put others in their vehicles, leave the family pets, forget ten suitcases of luggage, etc.,), then indeed in preparation for disaster the State has failed. That then will be a lesson learned from this. It is very unfortunate that it has to be learned in this manner, but future generations will benefit. Small solace for people who have lost loved ones or had their lives uprooted and changed forever.

I was a small cog helping during and after the Edmonton tornado. Let me ask the following to maybe provide a sense of perspective:

One hundred guests have just showed up at your house. They are staying for an indefinite period of time. What do you have to consider to keep these people with you? (Don't even mention toilet paper!) OK, go. Now, multiply that number by thousands. Good luck.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 07:14 PM

Brucie, there were many, many people who WANTED to leave but they had no way to do it. They ARE TOO POOR.

I don't understand why this is so difficult for people to absorb.

There really are people in this world, even in the United States of America, right now in the 21st century, as difficult as this is to believe, who are too poor to be able to afford their own transportation for the purpose of evacuating.

This is the truth. People need to allow this truth to sink in and stop judging the ones who were left behind simply BECAUSE NOBODY GAVE ENOUGH OF A SHIT ABOUT THEM TO INCLUDE THEM IN THE EMERGENCY PREPARATIONS.


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