Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)

Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 10:45 AM

Last week President Bush ordered the flag at half mast
for Rhenquist, not the disaster.

For next week (Sept.16) he has ordered that there will be a national day of prayer.

He said that the rescue operations have been exemplary and that the recovery teams on the way are more than adequate however some results are unacceptable.

.............

He has imposed a presidential order to lower wages for workers who will help clean up the disaster and awarded Halliburton another unbid contract.

Between 1953 and 1978 (the middle of the cold war) the National Secrets order was imposed 4 times by Presidents.

For the Bush administration it has been imposed 22 times (mostly to silence whistle blowers who are then subsequently fired - or worse)

He warned us to not MISUNDERESTIMATE him.

Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 11:51 AM

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/bushguitar1.jpg

Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 01:37 PM

Bush's fretting hand position on that guitar is symbolic of his whole stance: He kows a LITTLE but he doesn't check to see if he is right. His 'ear' is no help because, like his heart, it is out of tune.

Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 05:47 PM

Well, the way I read it, the chord (?) he's holding is made up of (from bass to treble):--

G# - C – D – G – B - *BUZZZ* (finger more or less on top of the 4th fret, neither G# nor A).

Dunno what you call that – it ain't in any chord book that I know of.

Got a way to go yet before he's ready for Austin City Limits. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Peace
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 07:12 PM

It was a demented seventh with a flatted ninth.

Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Sep 05 - 02:24 AM

People are using the bus issue as a way to try to shift responsibility away from FEMA and Bush, where it rightly belongs, to the people who were doing the best they could with the resources they had at their disposal.

The evacuation plan gives the local governments the authority to use those busses. But it does not give them the resources to put the busses to use. It doesn't give them drivers for the busses. It doesn't give them enough fuel to get to wherever they need to go. It doesn't give the busses a destiniation. If one of those busses ran out of fuel in a place that was vulnerable in the hurricane, and there wasn't any available fuel, and there were no shelters anywhere near, the people in that bus would be completely exposed to the worst the hurricane could throw at them. And they might die out in the open. 1600 busses would be needed to get all of the people out. That's with 80 people in a bus. That's 1600 bus drivers that would have to be found. Goodness knows how much fuel would be needed to get the people out of harm's way. Accomodations would have to be paid for. That would cost at least $4000 per day per bus, just for hotels and motels.

Mayor Nagin said way back in July that the local government did not have the resources to get people out who didn't have their own transportation in the event of a catastrophic hurricane. Nagin used the city's public tranportation to get people to the designated shelters so that they would at least be in stuctures that would be able to withstand the high winds of Katrina. People were much safer in those shelters than they would have been sitting in a bus by the side of the road. Had Nagin been able to get enough drivers, and if he could have been assured that the busses would have enough fuel to get everyone to safety, I have no doubt that he would have chosen that option rather than sending them to shelters in New Orleans. But that was the best he could do.

Governor Blanco was not just dealing with the logistics for evacuating New Orleans. She also had to worry about all of the other parts of Louisiana that were vulnerable in this storm. The state of Lousiana didn't have the resources to do everything that needed to be done. That's why she requested the assistance of the federal government.

It was the federal government that was in a position to do what was needed. It was responsible for making sure all of the different first responders were able to communicate with each other. It didn't do that. It could have pulled emergency resources in from other states, as well as support, equipment, and fuel from other areas to either get everyone evacuated, or at the very least to make sure all agencies and personnel were in communication and had what they needed in order to do what was needed for the people remaining in New Orleans as well as other parts of Louisiana and Mississippi. That was it's responsibility under the law and FEMA regulations. It did not do that.

Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Sep 05 - 04:47 AM

So, the Feds were supposed to have all the buses and drivers? How long would it take the Feds to get there? Katrina, could you stay out in the Gulf for a couple more days?

Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Sep 05 - 06:32 AM

You really mean in a situation like that the people running things worry about whether they can pay hotel bills or the price of fuel?   

When lives are at stake, you take whatever you need and sort out the paper work afterwords.

Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Sep 05 - 08:54 AM

Why did the government try to block mercy flights out of New Orleans?

See this excerpts of this article about Al Gore's success in airlifting patients to safety in Tenn:

"Gore Helps Airlift New Orleans Victims

By DUNCAN MANSFIELD, Associated Press Writer
Fri Sep 9,10:27 PM ET


KNOXVILLE, Tenn. -    Al Gore helped airlift some 270 Katrina evacuees on two private charters from New Orleans, acting at the urging of a doctor who saved the life of the former vice president's son.


Gore criticized the Bush administration's slow response to Katrina in a speech Friday in San Francisco, but refused to be interviewed about the mercy missions he financed and flew last Saturday and Sunday....

In the speech, Gore urged that the Bush administration be held accountable for the government's inadequate relief response, particularly "when the corpses of American citizens are floating in toxic floodwaters five days after a hurricane struck"...

On Sept. 1, three days after Katrina slammed into the Gulf Coast, Simon learned that Dr. David Kline, a neurosurgeon who operated on Gore's son, Albert, after a life-threatening auto accident in 1989, was trying to get in touch with Gore. Kline was stranded with patients at Charity Hospital in New Orleans.

"The situation was dire and becoming worse by the minute — food and water running out, no power, 4 feet of water surrounding the hospital and ... corpses outside," Simon wrote.

Gore responded immediately, telephoning Kline and agreeing to underwrite the $50,000 each for the two flights, although Larry Flax, founder of California Pizza Kitchens, later pledged to pay for one of them...

He also recruited two doctors, Spickard and Gore's cousin, retired Col. Dar LaFon, an emergency physician who once ran the military hospital at Tallil Air Base in Iraq.

Most critically, Gore worked to cut through government red tape, personally calling Gov. Phil Bredesen to get Tennessee's support and U.S. Transportation Secretary Norm Mineta to secure landing rights in New Orleans.

About 140 people, many of them sick, landed in Knoxville on Saturday. The second flight, with 130 evacuees, landed the next day in Chattanooga."

-snip-

Read the complete article: Gore Helps Airlift New Orleans Victims

Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Sep 05 - 09:07 AM

More on More on Gore's New Orleans Rescue Flights

See these excerpts from a dailykos dairy:

"..Greg Simon, the pres of FasterCures, recounted the determined (and agonizing) logistical coordination that resulted, finally, in the 2 airlifts of patients and evacuees to Tennessee. (If you have time, you should click over and read the fuller story yourself.) Here's my take on it.

Gore flew from Tenn. to Dallas (to pick up the chartered plane), to La. to Tenn. – and then did the whole thing again the next day. The idea was hatched Thursday night, and the advocates for the mission, including Simon, Gore and staff butted heads with the bureacrats for the next 2 days through mid-day Saturday.

At nearly every turn, FEMA or NDMS and military officials tried to stop these 2 flights.

The 1st flight out on Saturday was mostly patients in need of supervised care, including dialysis and insulin, and the second one on Sunday had more evacuees and fewer patients.

After landing slots were denied numerous times during the planning, the one person in Washington who would grant the 2 landing slots ended up being the single Democratic member of Bush's cabinet, Norm Mineta. That took a personal call from Gore to Mineta to override the instructions from below to withhold landing slots."

-snip-

Gore said that on the second trip to New Orleans, the doctors at the airport told him that the evacuation of the first 90 ambulatory patients had been the tipping point in their ability to adequately care for the other bedridden patients. They also noted that the military evacuations did not really pick up steam until after we "motivated" them with our private effort.

Of note:
Throughout the entire operation in Tennessee, EMS operations in Chicago had stayed prepared to handle patients or evacuees. None ever arrived because the military did not want us to use Chicago. Mayor Daly had been rebuffed earlier when he offered a complete mobile hospital unit for the airport and a tent city as well. Sen. Barack Obama called Gore and asked how had Gore managed to land in New Orleans when the Senator had been refused landing rights to help."

-snip-

Why would state mayors, a US Senator, and others be discouraged from mounting rescue missions to New Orleans?

Why would federal government departments instruct their staff to block these efforts by witholding landing rights?

What in the world is wrong with the USA????

Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: dianavan
Date: 10 Sep 05 - 12:23 PM

Azizi -

Yes, there is something very wrong with the U.S.A. Its called greed.

My question is why people from other countries seems to get through to help when individual Americans and U.S. agencies seem immobile? Surely there must be wealthy Americans who can do the same or better than Stronach.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1126267349095_21/?hub=CTVNewsAt11

Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: dianavan
Date: 10 Sep 05 - 01:03 PM

Azizi -

What is wrong with America?

The administration. Its run by corrupt businessmen (Bush and Cheney) who do not see the human suffering, only an opportunity to make a buck.

See the thread: What is Cheney up to?

Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Sep 05 - 01:21 PM

The point, McGrath and GUEST, is that the federal government is in a much better position to oversee those kinds of details and it has the resources within each state to do what the states themselves don't have the resources to do. It can allocate resources, equipment, and manpower from its own military bases within the state. It didn't need to go outside the states in question to get that help. Military bases are scattered all over the states of Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama. The military doesn't have to provide policing in order to be of assistance. Busses, trucks, bus drivers and fuel would have been enough. And the military could have guaranteed shelter for the evacuees after they had been evacuated so that there would be no question that they might be left exposed by the side of the road. Hotels and motels were all filled up all the way to Tennessee.

And the federal government is in a postition to get assistance from other states as needed.

The reason we have an agency like FEMA is for just this sort of thing. That's why it exists. That's why we pay billions of dollars in taxes for the Department of Homeland Security.

Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Amos
Date: 10 Sep 05 - 01:22 PM

What is wrong is that the republic has been discarded in favor of a tyranny whose values are "Family values" only -- the Family of Bush and Saud.

The head of state is a bumbling fool and a self-centered PR-driven ass, and his nature reflects throughout the organization -- all hat and no cattle, all "message" and no intent to deliver.

He's the worst catastrophe this side of New Orleans.

And has been since he tried to learn management by buying Texas.

A

Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: dianavan
Date: 10 Sep 05 - 02:42 PM

From CBC world news:

"Many of the same companies seeking contracts in the wake of Huricane Katrina have already received billions of dollars for work in Iraq.

Halliburton alone has earned more than nine billion dollars. Pentagon audits released by the Democrats in June showed $1.03 billion in "questioned" costs and $422 million in "unsupported" costs for Halliburton's work in Iraq.

The web of Bush administration connections is attracting renewed attention from watchdog groups in Washington. Congress has already appropriated more than $60 billion in emergency funding as a down payment on recovery efforts that are projected to cost over $100 billion.

The executive director of the Project on Government Oversight, Danielle Brian said "The government has got to stop stacking senior positions with people who are repeatedly cashing in on the public trust in order to further private commercial interests."

Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: mg
Date: 11 Sep 05 - 12:29 AM

I'm outraged too but chances are that in the group of 80 people one would step forward to drive the bus and school buses when school has probably started or is about to as well as city buses were probably filled.with gas..they might have had to siphon some to fill up others but there are always people who can do clever things like that in an emergency. Hasve we heard from the city bus company? Why weren't they told to drive, pick up whoever is on the side of the road with one small bag and keep driving....lyes, you do run the risk of various scenarios but so do you if you stay put. Pick your poison...and where were the trains? How far could they have gotten and how could buses, trucks etc. ful of people gotten to them? Surely they have trains going to (and especially from) New orleans or other areas..even if they had to ..horrible memories here of course..use boxcars or whatever...at some point trucks and buses could have met the waiting trains....and where were all the boats on the missicippi...safe harbor during the hurricane of course but how were they mismanaged? I know some tried to go there to help and were turned back and armed thugs shot at some rescue boats and some private boats did make it...we have to have learned that the only send money mantra is stupid...what i have been saying forever...mg

Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,W
Date: 11 Sep 05 - 07:25 AM

CarolC, your post at 09/10/05 is just plain wrong, incorrect, completely erroneous and was composed to go against the current Administration.
I have been there, am there on a state level and can't begin to comprehend where you obtained the information for your post. It certainly is not based on experience of any kind with regard to the subject.

Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Sep 05 - 08:10 AM

CorolC - @01:21 PM Sorry.

Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Sep 05 - 11:47 AM

You are an anonymous guest, GUEST,W. You have provided no supporting documentation, and only the sketchiest of anecdotal information. You have not stated which specific points I made in that post you disagree with, and why you disagree with them. I can only conclude, under the circumstances, that you work for Karl Rove and you are doing his bidding in order to pin the blame for the failure of the Bush administration's policies on the victims of those policies.

Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,W
Date: 11 Sep 05 - 05:18 PM

My point, CarolC, is that neither of us provided any specific points
or provided any type of documentation.
And of course, I did not make reference to any of your "specific points" as you, like me, had none.

Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: bobad
Date: 11 Sep 05 - 07:18 PM

10 Mind-Numbingly Stupid Quotes About Hurricane Katrina And Its Aftermath

1) "I don't think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees." �President Bush, on "Good Morning America," Sept. 1, 2005, six days after repeated warnings from experts about the scope of damage expected from Hurricane Katrina.

2) "What I'm hearing which is sort of scary is that they all want to stay in Texas. Everybody is so overwhelmed by the hospitality. And so many of the people in the arena here, you know, were underprivileged anyway so this (chuckle) � this is working very well for them." �Former First Lady Barbara Bush, on the Hurricane flood evacuees in the Houston Astrodome, Sept. 5, 2005.

3) "It makes no sense to spend billions of dollars to rebuild a city that's seven feet under sea level....It looks like a lot of that place could be bulldozed." �House Speaker Dennis Hastert (R-Ill.), Aug. 31, 2005.

4) "We've got a lot of rebuilding to do ... The good news is � and it's hard for some to see it now � that out of this chaos is going to come a fantastic Gulf Coast, like it was before. Out of the rubbles of Trent Lott's house � he's lost his entire house � there's going to be a fantastic house. And I'm looking forward to sitting on the porch." (Laughter) �President Bush, touring hurricane damage, Mobile, Ala., Sept. 2, 2005.

5) "Considering the dire circumstances that we have in New Orleans, virtually a city that has been destroyed, things are going relatively well." �FEMA Director Michael Brown, Sept. 1, 2005.

6) "Brownie, you're doing a heck of a job." �President Bush, to FEMA director Michael Brown, while touring Hurricane-ravaged Mississippi, Sept. 2, 2005.

7) "I have not heard a report of thousands of people in the convention center who don't have food and water." �Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff, on NPR's "All Things Considered," Sept. 1, 2005.

8) "Well, I think if you look at what actually happened, I remember on Tuesday morning picking up newspapers and I saw headlines, 'New Orleans Dodged the Bullet.' Because if you recall, the storm moved to the east and then continued on and appeared to pass with considerable damage but nothing worse." �Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff, blaming media coverage for his failings, "Meet the Press," Sept. 4, 2005.

9) "I mean, you have people who don't heed those warnings and then put people at risk as a result of not heeding those warnings. There may be a need to look at tougher penalties on those who decide to ride it out and understand that there are consequences to not leaving.� �Sen. Rick Santorum (R-PA), Sept. 6, 2005.

10) "You simply get chills every time you see these poor individuals...many of these people, almost all of them that we see are so poor and they are so black, and this is going to raise lots of questions for people who are watching this story unfold." �CNN's Wolf Blitzer, on New Orleans' hurricane evacuees, Sept. 1, 2005.

Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Sep 05 - 07:35 PM

Actually, I have provided documentation. A hell of a lot of it. In a lot of posts in a lot of threads.

Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Amos
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 06:37 PM

ANother bit of outrageous risk to lives on behalf of PR and oil. My aplogies for the length ofthis tale. But it is a telling tale:

A story of the white house ordering that power be restored to power
substations serving pipeline pumps in Mississippi and take priority over
hospitals and water systems. Since when is gasoline & diesel delivery
1500+
miles north more important than clean water and hospital care in the
hours
following a major hurricane? I find this disgusting. The cooperatives
restored the power, despite the fact that the federal government has
zero
authority over an instate power coop like Southern Pine Electric
Power. The
coop is self-regulated by its board of directors.

Power crews diverted
Restoring pipeline came first
September 11, 2005
By Nikki Davis Maute

http://www.hattiesburgamerican.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/
20050911/NEWS05/509110304

Shortly after Hurricane Katrina roared through South Mississippi
knocking
out electricity and communication systems, the White House ordered power
restored to a pipeline that sends fuel to the Northeast.

That order - to restart two power substations in Collins that serve
Colonial
Pipeline Co. - delayed efforts by at least 24 hours to restore power
to two
rural hospitals and a number of water systems in the Pine Belt.

At the time, gasoline was in short supply across the country because of
Katrina. Prices increased dramatically and lines formed at pumps
across the
South.

"I considered it a presidential directive to get those pipelines
operating,"
said Jim Compton, general manager of the South Mississippi Electric
Power
Association - which distributes power that rural electric
cooperatives sell
to consumers and businesses.

"I reluctantly agreed to pull half our transmission line crews off other
projects and made getting the transmission lines to the Collins
substations
a priority," Compton said. "Our people were told to work until it was
done.

"They did it in 16 hours, and I consider the effort unprecedented."

Katrina slammed into South Mississippi and Southeast Louisiana on
Aug. 29,
causing widespread devastation and plunging most of the area - including
regional medical centers and rural hospitals - into darkness.

The storm also knocked out two power substations in Collins, just
north of
Hattiesburg. The substations were crucial to Atlanta-based Colonial
Pipeline, which moves gasoline and diesel fuel from Texas, through
Louisiana
and Mississippi and up to the Northeast.

"We were led to believe a national emergency was created when the
pipelines
were shut down," Compton said.

*White House call*

Dan Jordan, manager of Southern Pine Electric Power Association, said
Vice
President Dick Cheney's office called and left voice mails twice shortly
after the storm struck, saying the Collins substations needed power
restored
immediately.

Jordan dated the first call the night of Aug. 30 and the second call the
morning of Aug. 31. Southern Pine supplies electricity to the substation
that powers the Colonial pipeline.

Mississippi Public Service Commissioner Mike Callahan said the U.S.
Department of Energy called him on Aug. 31. Callahan said department
officials said opening the fuel line was a national priority.

Cheney's office referred calls about the pipeline to the Department of
Homeland Security. Calls there were referred to Kirk Whitworth, who
would
not take a telephone message and required questions in the form of an
e-mail.

Susan Castiglione, senior manager of corporate and public affairs with
Colonial Pipeline, did not return phone calls.

Compton said workers who were trying to restore substations that
power two
rural hospitals - Stone County Hospital in Wiggins and George County
Hospital in Lucedale - worked instead on the Colonial Pipeline project.

The move caused power to be restored at least 24 hours later than
planned.

Mindy Osborn, emergency room coordinator at Stone County Hospital,
said the
power was not restored until six days after the storm on Sept. 4. She
didn't
have the number of patients who were hospitalized during the week
after the
storm.

"Oh, yes, 24 hours earlier would have been a help," Osborn said.

Compton said workers who were trying to restore power to some rural
water
systems also were taken off their jobs and placed on the Colonial
Pipeline
project. Compton did not name specific water systems affected.

*Callahan's visit*

Callahan is one of three elected public service commissioners who
oversee
most public utilities in the state. Commissioners, however, have no
authority over rural electric power cooperatives.

Nevertheless, Callahan said he drove to Compton's office on U.S. 49
North in
Hattiesburg to tell him about the call from the Department of Energy.
Callahan said he would support whatever decision Compton made.

Callahan said energy officials told him gasoline and diesel fuel
needed to
flow through the pipeline to avert a national crisis from the
inability to
meet fuel needs in the Northeast.

Callahan said the process of getting the pipelines flowing would be
difficult and that there was a chance the voltage required to do so
would
knock out the system - including power to Wesley Medical Center in
Hattiesburg.

With Forrest General Hospital operating on generators, Wesley was the
only
hospital operating with full electric power in the Pine Belt in the days
following Katrina.

"Our concern was that if Wesley went down, it would be a national
crisis for
Mississippi," Callahan said. "We knew it would take three to four
days to
get Forrest General Hospital's power restored and we did not want to
lose
Wesley."

Compton, though, followed the White House's directive.

Nathan Brown, manager of power supply for the electric association, was
responsible for overseeing the delicate operation of starting the
5,000-horsepower pumps at the pipeline.

Engineers with Southern Co., the parent company of Mississippi Power
Co.,
did a dual analysis of what it would take to restore power and Brown
worked
with Southern Co. engineers on the best and quickest way to restore
power.

Work began at 10 a.m. Sept. 1 and power was restored at 2 a.m. Sept.
2 - a
16-hour job.

*Night work*

A good bit of the work took place at night.

Line foreman Matt Ready was in charge of one of the teams that worked to
power the substations and the pipeline. Ready's shift started at 6 a.m.
Sept. 1; he received word about the job four hours later and saw it to
completion.

"We were told to stay with it until we got power restored," Ready
said. "We
had real safety issues because there were fires in the trees on the
lines
and broken power poles."

Ready described working on the lines in the dark like attempting to
clear
fallen trees out of a yard with a flashlight and a chain saw.

"Everything was dangerous," he said.

Ready said the crew members did not learn they were restoring power to
pipelines until after the job was done.

How did they feel about that?

"Is this on the record?" Ready asked. "Well, then, we are all glad we
were
able to help out."

Compton said he was happy to support the national effort. But he said
it was
a difficult decision to make because of the potential impact in the
region
had the plan not worked and the area's power restoration was set back
days.

"It was my decision to balance what was most important to people in
South
Mississippi with this all-of-a-sudden national crisis of not enough
gas or
diesel fuel," Compton said.

"In the future, the federal government needs to give us guidelines if
this
is such a national emergency so that I can work that in my plans."

---

The question is what was the substance behind the claim of "national crisis"? If any?

A

Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: dianavan
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 10:47 PM

For Cheney, oil is the top priority. If he loses money, it is a national crisis.

Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 04:52 AM

In German TV an entertainer asked:
Why didn't Bush send the Army south as into Irak? They also have oil there, a dictator (Governor of Florida), and no mass destruction arms.

Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 05:20 AM

Maybe because the governor of Florida is the president's brother.

Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,Pilot
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 05:32 AM

The people who are the most vocal are the ones that do the least to help. How many applauded Gore when he flew his private jet to rescue some people in a hospital? How many helicopters and fixed wing search aircraft had to be diverted from their missions to allow his aircraft airspace in and out of the area? What air traffic control was established to provide safety for all those aircraft? What fueling and alternate landing places had been established 24 hours into the disaster? Throw stones if you must, but make sure you have some understanding of the problems first.

Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Amos
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 08:10 AM

?ow many helicopters and fixed wing search aircraft had to be diverted from their missions to allow his aircraft airspace in and out of the area?

None, most likely.

A

Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Amos
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 08:17 AM

MAureen Dowd, writing in the NY Times, an excerpt:

"President Bush continued to try to spin his own inaction yesterday, but he may finally have reached a patch of reality beyond spin. Now he's the one drowning, unable to rescue himself by patting small black children on the head during photo-ops and making scripted attempts to appear engaged. He can keep going back down there, as he will again on Thursday when he gives a televised speech to the nation, but he can never compensate for his tragic inattention during days when so many lives could have been saved.

He made the ultimate sacrifice and admitted his administration had messed up, something he'd refused to do through all of the other screw-ups, from phantom W.M.D. and the torture at Abu Ghraib and Guantánamo to the miscalculations on the Iraq occupation and the insurgency, which will soon claim 2,000 young Americans.

How many places will be in shambles by the time the Bush crew leaves office?

Given that the Bush team has dealt with both gulf crises, Iraq and Katrina, with the same deadly mixture of arrogance and incompetence, and a refusal to face reality, it's frightening to think how it will handle the most demanding act of government domestic investment since the New Deal.

Even though we know W. likes to be in his bubble with his feather pillow, the stories this week are breathtaking about the lengths the White House staff had to go to in order to capture Incurious George's attention.

Newsweek reported that the reality of Katrina did not sink in for the president until days after the levees broke, turning New Orleans into a watery grave. It took a virtual intervention of his top aides to make W. watch the news about the worst natural disaster in a century. Dan Bartlett made a DVD of newscasts on the hurricane to show the president on Friday morning as he flew down to the Gulf Coast.

The aides were scared to tell the isolated president that he should cut short his vacation by a couple of days, Newsweek said, because he can be "cold and snappish in private." Mike Allen wrote in Time about one "youngish aide" who was so terrified about telling Mr. Bush he was wrong about something during the first term, he "had dry heaves" afterward.

The president had to be truly zoned out not to jump at the word "hurricane," given that he has always used his father's term as a reverse playbook and his father almost lost Florida in 1992 because of his slow-footed response to Hurricane Andrew. And W.'s chief of staff, Andy Card, was the White House transportation secretary the senior President Bush sent to the rescue after FEMA bungled that one.

W. has said he prefers to get his information straight up from aides, rather than filtered through newspapers or newscasts. But he surrounds himself with weak sisters who don't have the nerve to break bad news to him, or ideologues with agendas that require warping reality or chuckleheaded cronies like Brownie.

The president should stop haunting New Orleans, looking for that bullhorn moment. It's too late."

A

Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,G
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 12:08 PM

Amos, how long have you been on the payroll of the DNC?

Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Amos
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 01:49 PM

G:

What windy rhetoric!! :) I am on no-one's payroll but my own, politically. I have a job, but they don't care what my politics are, as long as my production is satifactory. Your question smacks of "the same deadly mixture of arrogance and incompetence, and a refusal to face reality" described by Ms Dowd.

A

Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 02:23 PM

GUEST,G, how long have you been Karl Rove?

Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Azizi
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 03:07 PM

America's shame. Bush takes the blame.

I think Bush's owning up to his responsibility as commander in chief is only empty words to shore up his falling approval numbers.

As Bush prepares for another New Orleans photo opportunity, stories such as An American Shame: The Edgar Hollingsworth story are proof that Bush failed miserably in his duty to ensure that sufficient federal search & rescue services were mounted for residents & tourists in the America's Gulf coast states.

Here's an excerpt from the dailykos diary "AMERICAN SHAME: The Edgar Hollingsworth Story ( Feds not permitting home searches ! )
by RobertInWisconsin [Wed Sep 14th, 2005]:

"Mr Hollingsworth was pulled unconscious and emaciated from his home in New Orleans by members of the California National Guard YESTERDAY - Day 16.

While Mr Hollingsworth lay on a couch in his home -- apparently alone, forgotten, without food or water, sinking into unconsciousness -- Mr Bush was doing the following :

Golfing

Licking cake frosting off his fingers

Strumming a guitar

Giving a propaganda speech in San Diego comparing Iraq to WWII and himself to FDR

Flying 2,000 feet overhead

Dragging his feet - sitting on his LAZY ASS - for FIVE LONG DAYS, while he and his gov't were in a state of PARALYSIS

Telling that horse's ass, 'Brownie you're doing a heck of a job'

Engaging in a pissing match with the Governor of Louisiana

Playing the Blame Game to try to pin his own inaction and negligence on everyone else

Taking full responsibility for the federal government failure to save people like Mr Hollingsworth ( Will Mr Bush receive consequences for his deadly inaction ? WILL HE ? )"

Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 03:08 PM

GUEST,G's remark reflects a very interesting attitude, quite prevalent these days:   that if you have a strong opinion, you must be in somebody's pay.

People who are alert, informed, and who think rationally tend to have fairly strong opinions. And it takes a bit more than pay to make them change those opinions.

But there are other kinds of people, those who lack opinions (and everything that implies) and who are willing to accept without question whatever the current administration's stance happens to be.

Ever hear the song, The Vicar of Bray?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,rarelamb
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 03:46 PM

LOL. What can I say. I just read (most) of this thread. And what can I say. Seems a lot of liberal (socialists dressed in American clothing) are rampant on this board. It was also interesting to see several people from overseas.

For the edification of our foreign guests (liberals) and for those from other countries, I would like to point out that our nation was formed from independent states.

These states, like any public institution, jealously guards its own sphere and tries to maximize them. What is lost on many on this board is the reality that the first responders are local.

Unless you want to overturn posse comitatus or want to declare an insurrection, the Governor has primary responsibility to move law enforcing forces. Before any federal troops or any groups such as the Red Cross can enter. The Governor failed. Plain and simple. The resources were there. The support people were there. The Governor failed.

No amount of Bush bashing is going to change the fact that the Governor failed to get the national guard in the city. (notice how the 'tragedy' seems to only exist in New Orleans for some folks?)

On a seperate point, the reason the problem existed to the scope that it did was because of liberal policies. Liberals have coddled/hobbled black people in our society to the point where they are 'disfunctional'

I posted this on a different forum.
"On Liberals being the cause of the NO tragedy

Or more accurately, on liberals being the cause of the scale and scope of the New Orleans tragedy. I do not blame liberals for the hurricane. What I blame liberals for is the size of the number of people who did not evacuate, and in particular black people.

Natural disasters happen. There is no getting around that. People were givin accurate information and told to leave. For some reason 80% of the population left but some 300,000 people decided to stay. Had those people left like everyone else, then the scope of the human tragedy would have been greatly diminished. The question then becomes, why did they not leave?

Through government coddling, we have created a group of poor black people who dislike society, feel entitled, culturally self destructive and unable to help themselves. This is the result of the 'Vision of the Anionted', 'War on Poverty' and most of the other liberal programs designed to 'help'.

Nearly every one of the statistics liberals bring up to describe how disadvantaged black people are in our society can be explained to a great degree as the end result of failed government policy. I mean failed liberal government policy. No single other ethnic group has failed so miserably integrating themselves to the fabric of American society, nor is so dependent upon that society.

Whether you are talking about the Chinese, Irish, Jews, Polish, Mexican, cuban, etc. etc. etc. Every group of immigrants have folded themselves into the fabric of society and made America the richer for it. In fact, I am of the opion that the latter large wave of hispanics is our future and have done the best integrating. They have the second highest inter-racial marriage rate (measured by who women select) after asians. On the other hand black women marry black men 99% of the time.

This cultural isolation is fully endorsed by liberals inability to 'judge', support for multiculturalism and assault on 'family values'. How many could have been helped if they had a large family network to support them and force them to leave? How many could have been helped if they were able to integrate into the rest of American society by having a traditional family of a husband wife and child as opposed to a woman with a child out of wedlock? How many could have been helped if a large number of menfolk were not in jail?

And if 'poverty' was the 'root cause' then we must again question why. Why do liberals persist to claim that the culture of poverty and hopelessness is of equal value to the Judeo Christion culture of hardwork, honesty, family and self-reliance?

This coddling has left hundreds of thousands unable to realize the importance of evacuating, whether due to a general disregard for authority and society or systematic ignorance caused by liberal policies."

Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 03:51 PM

A great post and dead right on. My hat is off and tipped to you.

This forum is full of flaming far-left liberal morons.

Many of them are also very lazy people, choosing to make this forum a major part of their life.

Right Amos?

Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 03:56 PM

I feel a great disturbance in The Force.
                            --Obi Wan Kenobe

Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: TIA
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 03:58 PM

Uhhh...you're here too Martin.

Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 04:17 PM

We've already seen and effectively put to rest most of the falsifications you have once again brought up in your post, rarelamb, one of the most significant being this one...

No amount of Bush bashing is going to change the fact that the Governor failed to get the national guard in the city. (notice how the 'tragedy' seems to only exist in New Orleans for some folks?)

The FACT is that the problems were system wide. The same problems that we saw in Louisiana, we also saw in Mississippi. You can't blame those on the Democrat governor of Louisiana.

If you think the country shouldn't have a federal disaster response agency, maybe you should be lobbying to have the whole Department of Homeland Security dismantled. But as long as the taxpayers are paying many billions of dollars to that agency for the services it's supposed to provide, we have a right to expect it to provide the services we are paying for.

Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 04:24 PM

"Coddling?"

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Azizi
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 04:47 PM

"Through government coddling, we have created a group of poor black people who dislike society, feel entitled, culturally self destructive and unable to help themselves".

What??!!!

That entire sentence would be insulting if it wasn't so ridiculous.

Surely Rove can do better than that.

Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 05:02 PM

He probably can, Azizi. That one sounded more like Pat Robertson or David Duke than Karl Rove.

Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 05:04 PM

"Coddling." I'm still in awe over that one!

I am truly astounded at the number of people who have no concept of what's going on in the real world.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 05:09 PM

GUEST,G, how long have you been Karl Rove?
I'm not sure about that. We have a GUEST,G and a GUEST,W. I'm still waiting for a GUEST,B to turn up.

Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 05:23 PM

"�President Bush" - all right, that was some kind of typo on the part of bodad. But it's a pretty inspired typo.
.........................................

I sometimes get the impression that there are people who decide which way to go on public issues here, not on the basis of the facts, as they've seen them here and elsewhere, but in a sort of kneejerk reaction when they recognise someone they've tangled with on other issues on, and they promptly leap in "on the other side".

Rather more encouraging is when people, who have been at daggers drawn in other controversies, find themselves on the same side for a change. That's how it should be for people who are intellectually honest with themselves.

Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Cluin
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 05:45 PM

The Bush family vacation photo.

Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Azizi
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 05:55 PM

Does Bush take responsibility for these New Orleans Missing Persons ?

I doubt it.

Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Amos
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 07:17 PM

The grim reality behind that list of pleas and uncertainties makes pontificators like Martin and lamb's-brain look downright satanic.

I am not a socialist, and am not in disguise.

Nor is Mudcat my life, as anyone who knows me knows.

You guys are seriously out of contact with reality.

A

Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 07:49 PM

Another thing people like rarelamb haven't taken into consideration is the fact that many of those people who did not evacuate (because they were not able to), were the elderly parents and family members of servicemen and women who are currently serving overseas, ostensibly in the name of PROTECTING RARELAMB'S ASS.

Those servicemen and women deserve far better than the kind of slimey racist BS you have served up here in this thread, rarelamb. And they deserved far better than the criminal neglect of their family's safety served up to them by the Bush administration. If they are willing to go overseas and risk their lives in the name of protecting this country, the least the president who sent them there can do is make sure he is doing everyting in his power to keep their families safe here at home. He owes them that much.

Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Amos
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 08:14 PM

Outrage of another sort:

ROBERTSON BLAMES HURRICANE ON CHOICE OF ELLEN DEGENERES TO HOST EMMYS

Lesbian is New Orleans native

Hollywood, CA - Pat Robertson on Sunday said that Hurricane Katrina
was God's way of expressing its anger at the Academy of Television
Arts and Sciences for its selection of Ellen Degeneres to host this
year's Emmy Awards. "By choosing an avowed lesbian for this national
event, these Hollywood elites have clearly invited God's wrath,"
Robertson said on "The 700 Club" on Sunday. "Is it any surprise that
the Almighty chose to strike at Miss Degeneres' hometown?"

Robertson also noted that the last time Degeneres hosted the Emmys,
in 2001, the September 11 terrorism attacks took place shortly before
the ceremony.