Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafesj

Post to this Thread - Printer Friendly - Home
Page: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11]


Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs

Related threads:
How old is Brit trad of music in pubs? (88)
PEL: Mummers stopped Cerne Abbas (101)
PEL: demo - pictures (14)
BS: Is Kim Howells an arsehole? (65)
Common's Early Day Motion 331 (new)(PEL) (71) (closed)
Licensing Bill - How will it work ? (331)
Weymouth Folk Festival (UK) (120)
A little more news on Licensing (158)
Killed by the PEL system Part 2 (93)
The New Star Session R.I.P. PELs (55)
PEL Problems in Hull (39)
PELs: Are we over-reacting? (74)
Circus PELs - I told you so! (16)
PEL Mk II: UK Government at it again (24)
PEL stops session in Cheshire (78)
Lyr Add: PEL Song: A PEL Protest (Julie Berrill) (27)
PELs - Letters to important folk. (50)
PEL: Architect)?) Andrew Cunningam (11)
Licensing Bill moves on -OUR FUTURE (286) (closed)
UK Government to license Morris Dancing (68) (closed)
EFDSS on the Licensing Bill - PELs. (38)
PEL: Doc Roew gets through to Minister !!! (11)
PELs Dr Howells on Mike Harding Show. (106)
From Eliza Carthy & Mike Harding PELs (36)
DANCING OUTBREAK! and definition. PELs (16)
PEL threads. links to all of them. (50)
BS: Village Greens and licences (3) (closed)
PEL's: News Blackout! (53)
PEL: Billy Bragg BBC1 Monday nite (17)
PELs: Exemptions? (107)
Petition Clarification (PELs) (9)
PEL debate on BBC TV Now. (6)
further 'dangers' with the PEL (24)
Stupid Music Law. (8)
Howells (now) asks for help PELs (68)
PEL : MPs' replies to your e-mails (40)
PEL: Where does Charles Kennedy stand? (10)
PEL: NCA Campaign free Seminar (18)
PEL: Howells on BBCR1 TONIGHT! (45)
PEL : Hardcopy Petition (44)
PELs Government v MU & lawyers (48)
PEL Pages (5)
Human Rights Committee AGREES! PELs (20)
Churches now exempt from PELs (55)
Lyr Add: PEL 'Freedom to sing' song (12)
Lyr Add: PEL Protest song (14)
Can YOU help The Blue Bell session? (9)
PEL: Urgent soundbites - CBC interview (25)
BS: Kim Howells, but NOT PELS for a change (8) (closed)
PEL: Billy Bragg on Question Time 6th Feb (15)
Kim Howells (PEL) (85) (closed)
PEL - A Reply From An MP. (22)
BS: What is PEL? (3) (closed)
PEL - 'Demo' Fleetwood 30th Jan 2003 (25)
PEL – Robb Johnson on R3, 1215h, 26/1. (8)
New PEL. An alternative argument. (31)
PEL: DEMO 27 JANUARY 2003 (95)
PEL: VERY URGENT - CONTACT yr MP TODAY (46)
Poet against PEL - welcome Simon (10)
PEL: First Lord's defeat of the bill (10)
PEL - 'Demo' Fleetwood 23rd Jan (5)
kim howells does it again (PEL) (69)
PEL UK - Unemployed Artist Dancer - look (22)
PEL hit squads! (16)
PELs for beginners (26)
PEL: Latest rumour/lie? It's gone away? (3)
PEL: but not music (9)
Folking Lawyers (PEL) (26)
MU campaign - Freedom of Expression (36)
PEL- Enforcement: How? (8)
PEL: Inner working of Minister's minds? (9)
PROTEST DEMO WITH GAG (PEL) (10)
PEL: What activities to be criminalised? (29)
A Criminal Conviction for Christmas? (PEL) (45)
PEL - Idea (34)
Glastonbury Festival Refused PEL (5)
MSG: x Pete Mclelland Hobgoblin Music (23)
Sessions under threat in UK? (101)
PELs of the past (13)
BS: PELs and roller skates. (1) (closed)
PELs UK Music needs your HELP (64)
Fighting the PEL (43)
URGENT MESSAGE FOR THE SHAMBLES (22)
Lyr Add: The Folk Musician's Lament (a PEL protest (2)
BS: Queen's speech, and licensing reforms (32) (closed)
PELs UK BBC Breakfast TV Monday (1)
PEL: Licensing Reform? (46)
BS: PELs in Scotland (12) (closed)
BS: The Cannon Newport Pagnell UK - no PEL! (18) (closed)
Action For Music. PELs (28)
Killed by the PEL system (66)
TV sport vs live music in pubs. HELP (6)
PEL and the Law: 'Twas ever thus (14)
EFDSS letter to UK Government HELP! (2)
24 July 2002 Day of Action - PELs (77)
Help: PELs & The Folk Image (12)
Official 'No tradition' 2 (PELs) (55)
Is this man killing folk music? (19)
We have PEL - Rose & Crown Ashwell, 23/6 (2)
BS: Vaults Bar, Bull ,Stony Stratford - PEL (4) (closed)
What is folk ? - OFFICIAL (26)
Official: No tradition of music in pubs (92)
UK catters be useful TODAY (70)
Help Change Music In My Country (102)
PEL-More questions (7)
NEWS for visitors wanting to play in UK (56)
Nominate for a Two in a Bar Award -UK (11)
USA- HELP Where is Dr Howells? (13)
BS: URGENT UK contact your MP TONITE (18) (closed)
ATTENTION ALL UK FOLKIES URGENT HELP? (97)
Write an Email for Shambles? Part 2 (75)
UK TV Cove Session/The Shambles (24)
All UK folkies take note - the law!!! (68)
BS: Tenterden weekend (and PELs) (11) (closed)
PEL (UK) (25)
Will you write an Email for Shambles? (111) (closed)
Important - Attention All Mudcatters (99)
Council Bans Morris Part 2 (73)
Council Bans Morris Dancing (103)
Day of action for live music 19th July (44)
Traditional activities and the law (13)
Sessions under threat in UK PART 2 (15)
Making Music Is Illegal. (56)
Urgent Help Required!! Threat to UK Sessions (11)


Richard Bridge 31 Dec 02 - 04:39 PM
The Shambles 31 Dec 02 - 04:49 PM
ET 01 Jan 03 - 07:54 AM
GUEST 01 Jan 03 - 07:56 AM
DMcG 01 Jan 03 - 08:52 AM
The Shambles 01 Jan 03 - 08:28 PM
ET 02 Jan 03 - 06:59 AM
GUEST,ET 03 Jan 03 - 07:21 AM
The Shambles 03 Jan 03 - 01:47 PM
fiddler 03 Jan 03 - 02:02 PM
Richard Bridge 03 Jan 03 - 05:17 PM
The Shambles 04 Jan 03 - 01:16 PM
Richard Bridge 04 Jan 03 - 05:08 PM
DMcG 05 Jan 03 - 03:47 AM
DMcG 05 Jan 03 - 04:41 AM
The Shambles 05 Jan 03 - 06:49 AM
Oaklet 05 Jan 03 - 07:34 AM
Mr Happy 05 Jan 03 - 09:12 AM
GUEST,ET 05 Jan 03 - 04:27 PM
Mr Happy 06 Jan 03 - 06:05 AM
IanC 06 Jan 03 - 08:58 AM
IanC 06 Jan 03 - 11:33 AM
Mr Happy 06 Jan 03 - 11:36 AM
The Shambles 06 Jan 03 - 01:10 PM
vindelis 06 Jan 03 - 01:12 PM
The Shambles 06 Jan 03 - 05:18 PM
Mr Happy 06 Jan 03 - 08:04 PM
GUEST,Pete 06 Jan 03 - 08:41 PM
GUEST,Julia 06 Jan 03 - 10:43 PM
fiddler 07 Jan 03 - 03:44 AM
GUEST 07 Jan 03 - 04:03 AM
Mr Happy 07 Jan 03 - 04:06 AM
fiddler 07 Jan 03 - 04:09 AM
Richard Bridge 07 Jan 03 - 05:44 AM
clansfolk 07 Jan 03 - 06:59 AM
Mr Happy 07 Jan 03 - 07:38 AM
An Pluiméir Ceolmhar 07 Jan 03 - 09:14 AM
IanC 07 Jan 03 - 09:45 AM
Mr Happy 07 Jan 03 - 10:03 AM
GUEST 07 Jan 03 - 10:05 AM
Mr Happy 07 Jan 03 - 10:12 AM
Mr Happy 07 Jan 03 - 11:03 AM
DMcG 07 Jan 03 - 11:14 AM
IanC 07 Jan 03 - 11:14 AM
IanC 07 Jan 03 - 12:28 PM
The Shambles 07 Jan 03 - 01:35 PM
The Shambles 07 Jan 03 - 03:58 PM
fiddler 08 Jan 03 - 06:00 AM
The Shambles 08 Jan 03 - 06:48 AM
The Shambles 08 Jan 03 - 04:38 PM
Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum Child
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:













Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Dec 02 - 04:39 PM

I have to say "uniformed MPs" is such a good freudian slip....


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 31 Dec 02 - 04:49 PM

'Evenin all'
16,667.........


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: ET
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 07:54 AM

This is the Musicians Union View of the current shambolic state of the Licensing Bill. No wonder Tony Blair takes a gloomy view of 2003.

For circulation



The Department for Culture, Media and Sport, responsible for the Licensing Bill, has responded to recent enquiries from members of the public concerned about the implications for live music.



The DCMS letters present what appears to be a reasonable package of reforms - provided the reader lacks a detailed knowledge of the contents of the Bill, a clear understanding of the operation of the present PEL regime, or a clear understanding of the subsisting framework of public safety, noise and crime and disorder legislation. What the DCMS statements leave out is, of course, also significant. When the missing information is filled in, the DCMS arguments begin to look less convincing.



In response to various requests for clarification, I have taken a recent example from the DCMS replies and introduced my own observations (in blue). These will, I hope, explain why the Musicians' Union is opposing key elements of the government's proposed reforms, and why it continues to argue for an automatic permission for live music in licensed premises such as bars and restaurants, within certain parameters (such as performance times). Similar regimes operate successfully in Scotland, Ireland, Germany, Denmark, France and Finland. The Scottish comparison is the most significant since the public safety and noise legislation which regulates performance in this context applies UK-wide. The MU accepts, however, that premises specialising in music, or music and dance (such as nightclubs) may need the exceptional level of control that licensing requires.



The Licensing Bill treats all live music as if it were potentially as lethal as asbestos. This is not only ridiculous, but is a licensing regime liable to abuse by local authorities, and ill behoves a civilised nation. Robin Allen QC, who is advising the MU on the Licensing Bill, has concluded not only that the government's present approach is 'very clearly incompatible with Article 10' [of the European Convention - i.e. freedom of expression], but also that: 'Where live music is concerned, the current Licensing Bill before Parliament is in many respects nonsensical and over-regulatory. It represents an overwhelmingly unjustified interference in the fun, livelihood and cultural life in England and Wales.' There is a more detailed explanation of the Article 10 issues on the MU website: www.musiciansunion.org.uk, and follow links to the Two in a Bar section.



Mr Allen's views are not simply those you might expect from a retained legal adviser. They are shared by the newly-formed, independent lobby group 'Performer-Lawyers', most of whom are amateur musicians.



In 1976 the UK government signed up to an international convention which, among other things, imposed a duty to create an environment in which everyone can participate in the cultural life of the community (International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights, Article 15). This would include a duty not only to cherish existing traditional musical forms, but also to create social and economic conditions that allow for the natural development of new forms. This means, at least, making it as easy as possible for musicians, be they amateur or professional, beginner or seasoned performer, to congregate together to make music in premises that are already the focal point of the community.



However, even if the government's Licensing Bill resulted in a ten-fold increase in the number of licensed premises where more than two musicians could perform (i.e. to 50%), that would still leave 50% where a performance by one unamplified singer would be a criminal offence. Combatting social exclusion through the arts was one of this government's key aims, but with the Bill in its present form, it is quite likely that the unlicensed premises would be in the very communities where it is most important to provide the infrastructure for musical participation and access.



Unless significantly amended, the present Licensing Bill would be a cultural straitjacket.



The DCMS letter below was sent on 13 December 2002.


* * *



Dear ....



Thank you for your letter of 26 November to Tony Blair in connection with our proposals for the reform of the current public entertainment licensing laws. I am replying on his behalf.



I appreciate your concerns with regard to the proposals but would like to assure you that the new licensing system would provide increased opportunities for musicians and other performers. It may be helpful if I explain in detail what is proposed. The "two in a bar rule", which is an exemption from the normal requirement for a public entertainment licence, would be abolished for the perfectly sound reason that one musician with modern amplification can make as much noise as three without...



It is true that the 'two in a bar rule' is an exemption from the 'normal' requirement for a public entertainment licence (PEL) in England and Wales. However, the word normal, in its plain English sense, could hardly describe the present PEL regime. For example, without a PEL, it is a criminal offence to encourage 'community-style singing' in a pub, or to allow a third musician to join a duo for one number, or indeed to allow any more than the same two people to perform during the course of an evening's entertainment. Morris dancing in a pub, a pub garden or car park is also a criminal offence without a PEL. The PEL regime purports to address overcrowding, noise nuisance and crime and disorder, but it exempts the provision of any amount of broadcast music or sport, or jukebox music, however powerfully amplified.



The PEL regime is, in many respects, an outmoded relic of the 18-century when it was introduced as a crime and disorder measure for rowdy Westminster ale-houses. At that time there was no unified police force for London. Public safety and noise legislation was rudimentary or non-existent.



This no doubt explains why 233 MPs signed an Early Day Motion (1182) during the last Parliamentary session, condemning the present rules as 'archaic and just plain daft'.



But in abolishing the two in a bar rule, and in fact virtually all other PEL exemptions (such as secular music in churches outside London, private members clubs, etc) the Licensing Bill renders public performance by even one unamplified musician, paid or unpaid, a criminal offence almost anywhere, at any time - unless first licensed. Much private performance is also caught (if raising money for charity, or if performers are paid). However, the exemption for broadcast entertainment, and for 'incidental recorded music' such as provided on a jukebox, is retained. There is no requirement to declare its provision on licence applications.



This exemption is clearly significant insofar as the government has taken a close look at public safety, noise and crime and disorder legislation that applies to premises like pubs and bars, and has concluded that it is adequate no matter how crowded a pub might be, no matter how powerful the sound system, no matter what time of day or night (remember bars can apply for 24-hour opening), no matter whether large groups of excited young men jump up and down in the bar, and no matter that these groups are prone to spill out onto the streets afterwards looking for a fight.



On the other hand, a monthly performance by an unamplified guitarist in a restaurant would require notification of and approval by the police, fire service, local authority environmental health department, local residents, and finally the licensing committee of the local authority. If such a performance went ahead unlicensed the licensee could face a maximum penalty of a £20,000 fine and six months in prison. The musician could face the same penalty, if they had not first checked that the premises was appropriately authorised for their performance.



Now to the rationale for abolishing the two performer PEL exemption. The DCMS claims this is necessary 'for the perfectly sound reason that one musician with modern amplification can make more noise than three without'. Quite true, but the statement misleadingly implies: 1) licensing is the only way to control noise breakout from pubs; 2) musicians with amplifiers are a major source of noise complaint; 3) 'modern amplification' renders the present regime out of date.



Not one of these justifications bears up under close scrutiny:



1    Noise

Ironically, many of the premises currently responsible for most disturbance to local residents will already hold PELs because the licence is obligatory for late-opening. The overwhelming cause of noise complaints is nothing to do with music (live or recorded), but is due to noisy customers in the vicinity of licensed premises. Abolition of the two performer PEL exemption will do nothing to address that problem.



Irrespective of public entertainment licence controls, there is plenty of legislation to control noise, both pro-actively and reactively. The perception of complainants, and indeed MPs, that the legislation is inadequate, is due largely to ineffective enforcement.



Town and country planning Acts allow for the imposition of pre-emptive noise controls on premises. The present Licensing Act 1964 confers general powers on licensing justices which they use to impose noise-limiting conditions on the grant and renewal of liquor 'on licences' for pubs, bars, restaurants and so on. Under the Environmental Protection Act 1990 all local authorities can serve anticipatory noise abatement notices if they are satisfied a noise nuisance is likely to occur or recur, and all local authorities can seize noisy equipment. The time allowed for compliance with an abatement notice is specified by the local authority and may vary from a requirement to stop the noise 'forthwith' to some longer period, as appears to them appropriate in the circumstances.



Camden used a noise abatement notice to close the Shaftesbury Theatre production of 'Umoja' earlier this year. One resident's complaints were enough. Any breach of a noise abatement notice carries a fine of up to £20,000.



Noise at Work Regulations primarily address employee exposure to excessive noise, but may indirectly bear down on noise breakout. The 90 dBa 'second action limit' currently imposed by this legislation is frequently exceeded by amplified recorded music played in bars. The dBa scale is logarithmic which means that an increase of 3 dBa roughly halves the permitted exposure time. Many DJs and sound systems provide recorded music at levels above 100 dBa, which would mean that any staff exposure of an hour or less would be illegal without wearing some kind of hearing protection. Local authorities are supposed to monitor and enforce this legislation. A new EC Directive would reduce the Noise at Work action limits to 80 dBa (first action limit) and 85 dBa (second action limit).



Justices on licences may be revoked on the grounds that a pub has caused noise nuisance problems for local residents. From memory I understand the police can instigate such proceedings using powers under Section 20 (A) of the Licensing Act 1964. Since December 2001 the police have had the power to close noisy pubs immediately for up to 24 hours (Criminal Justice and Police Act 2001, amended the Licensing Act 1964) .



No doubt this is why the National Society for Clean Air recently reported that: 'In general local authorities are content with the flexibility the nuisance provisions allow. However, for adequate enforcement there is a need for clarification (for officers and the public) and better resourcing.' [NSCA National Noise Survey 2002, p6].



Residents Associations in the heart of London recognise that noise breakout from within premises can already be controlled. During a noise nuisance workshop held at a major national conference on licensing reform last year, John Bos, co-ordinator of the Covent Garden Community Associatoin said: 'We agreed that there were two answers to the questions posed in the workshop. "Can it [noise] be controlled?" The answer is "yes" if it comes from premises, and "no" if it comes from people in the street...the main problem is not noise emanating from premises, it's not music bellowing out with dance and disco, or what have you, it's actually noise from people when they arrive or leave, in the street.' [Open All Hours, Report of the National Conference of Licensing Reform, 24 March 2001, Civic Trust]



2    Noise from live musicians a major problem?

Absolutely not. The Noise Abatement Society confirmed that 81% of noise complaints concerning licensed premises are caused by noisy people outside. The remainder are largely caused by noisy amplified recorded music and noisy machinery. While it is perfectly true that powerfully amplified live bands can be a problem on occasion, the UK Noise Association have said that it is rare for them to receive complaints about live music. They get more complaints about loud amplified pre-recorded music. The Institute of Alcohol Studies sponsors the Open All Hours consultation, and canvasses the views of residents' associations on licensing issues. The IAS informed me that no residents' associations have ever made an issue of live music. Their overwhelming preoccupation is how to curb anti-social behaviour of people in the vicinity of licensed premises.



3    The two in a bar rule must be abolished because of musicians' access to modern amplification

Wrong again. Amplified guitars were in widespread use in the 1950s. The two performer exemption was first introduced in the Licensing Act 1961. Heavily amplified pub rock thrived during the 60s and 70s. At that time magistrates controlled the PEL regime, and fees were purely nominal. All that changed in the early 80s when responsibility for PELs was transferred to local authorities, and legislation amended to allow for 'cost recovery' fees. The decline of grass roots gigs dates from this period.



... I am confident that the proposed reforms would provide a licensing framework within which musical performance and dance could thrive and develop, while providing adequate protection for the local people in the community.

This unlikely to be true for pubs, bars or restaurants. In September the licensing Minister, Kim Howells, said that if the Musicians' Union were to lobby for satellite tv to become a licensable entertainment (this is not the MU position), this would be 'resisted robustly' by the leisure industry. Licensed industry commentators do not believe that the existing 5% take-up of PELs will increase significantly during transition from the present to the new licensing regime. The reason is that among licensees there is a profound mistrust of local authorities, due in large part to the well-documented record of over-zealous PEL enforcement. In 2000 even the Home Office officially warned local authorities to ease up on PEL conditions, but few, if any, took notice (Home Office Circular 13/2000). In a recent survey by the trade press (Morning Advertiser), 94% of 1,000 landlords questioned said they would prefer magistrates to control licensing.



The main purpose of this Bill is to allow pubs and bars to open later more easily. In transition most landlords will not want to delay their applications with applications for licensable entertainment that are likely to run into local opposition, and which could reduce the number of people allowed in the premises. This sector of the leisure industry does not believe for one moment that local authorities will adhere to the government's published guidance. Even PEL applications for unamplified live music trigger conditions such as the provision of door supervisors, the setting of a lower capacity for the premises, installation of more toilets and double glazing. Stuart Neame, of Shepherd Neame brewery, has estimated the average cost of compliance at £10,000 per pub. Local authorities would argue strongly that such conditions are 'necessary', but unless licensees have £5,000 spare cash, any appeal to the courts over disputed conditions will be out of the question. Far simpler to stick to the non-licensable entertainments, such as satellite tv and the jukebox.



The Local Government Association recently circulated a paper to the DCMS licensing advisory panel, suggesting that if any live music is to be considered, new licence application forms should require licensees to state the maximum number of musicians, where in the premises they are to perform, and when. This demonstrates a total lack of understanding of the way in which traditional folk sessions, or jazz jam sessions, operate. If adopted, this would undoubtedly mean a continuation of the wholly pointless and depressing cycle of local authority enforcement whereby the number of performers are counted by undercover licensing officers, followed by a swift letter threatening criminal prosecution if an appropriate authorisation is not in force.



In order to vary such conditions, such as increasing the number of performers by one, or indeed obtaining permission to have one live performer, an application to 'vary' the existing licence would have to be made. This would entail payment of a fee (amount not yet known), and notification and approval of the police, fire service, local authority environmental health department, local residents, and finally the local authority licensing committee. 'Necessary' conditions could be imposed, with all the cost implications.



Under the new licensing regime, the concept of a public entertainment licence would completely disappear.

That is simply nonsense: the title of the licence is changed, but for all practical purposes its function, and operation, is largely the same. Indeed its scope, as far as entertainment is concerned, is significantly increased, bringing within the licensing regime for the first time 15,000 churches outside London, all 5,000 registered members clubs, 110,000 licensed premises such as restaurants, pubs, bars and hotels, and hundreds of thousands of hitherto private events where the performance is to raise money for charity, entertainment agencies are engaged to provide live music or DJs for private functions, or indeed where performers are directly engaged for the same purpose. It would appear that historical battle re-enactments are also newly criminalised (unless licensed), as is horse-and-carriage racing.



Permission to sell alcohol, provide public entertainment, stage a play, show a film or provide late night refreshment would be integrated into a single licence - the "premises licence". This would integrate six existing licensing regimes into one, cutting at a stroke significant amounts of red tape.

Given the huge increase in the potential number of licences to be issued, the increased workload for local authorities, and enforcement for non-compliance, this looks like a significant increase in red tape. As Baroness Buscombe commented in the Lords during the first Committee debate on 12 December: 'We believe passionately that this is entirely against what we were led to believe; that is, that this would be a deregulatory measure. The Bill will give us more regulation, more red tape, and more cost.'



Accordingly, under our proposals, any public house would need to obtain permission to sell alcohol for consumption on those premises and would be free to apply simultaneously for permission to put on music or dancing or similar entertainment whenever desired. The fee for such a premises licence would be no different whether the pub simply seeks permission to sell alcohol or if it decides to go for multiple permissions. There would therefore be no deterrent to seeking multiple permissions. The position row is that many pubs are wary of obtaining a separate public entertainment licence because the costs can be prohibitive in some local authority areas.

This is disingenuous: the licence fee would be no different only if the application to host licensable entertainment was made at the point of transition from the old to the new regime. If permission is not sought at that time, the present right of licensed premises to host one or two live performers will lapse, and could only be reinstated by applying to vary the new premises licence. As already mentioned, this would require payment of a fee. 'Necessary' conditions, of course, have significant cost implications, again as already discussed. These are sometimes referred to as 'hidden' costs of compliance, and are probably the greatest deterrent to the provision of licensable entertainment such as live music.



Subject to our continuing discussions with stakeholders, any variation in fees would more likely relate to the capacity of the venue so that smaller venues pay less than large ones. The fees would also be set centrally by the Secretary of State to eradicate the wide and sometimes unjustified inconsistencies that presently exist.

Centrally-set fees are one measure welcomed by the Musicians' Union.



The premises licence would also set the hours that the premises may open for its activities, and set fair, necessary and proportionate conditions under which these activities may take place. This would achieve three important purposes: the prevention of crime and disorder; the assurance of public safety and the prevention of undue public nuisance. It is essential that the greater freedom and opportunities which would be available to licensees and performers are balanced with powers to deal with the small minority who might abuse such freedom, damage communities and bring the industry into disrepute. Under the new regime, local residents would have the right to object to the grant of a licence or certain parts of the operator's proposals and to have their views considered. This means, for example, that any conditions affecting noise being emitted from the premises might be more restrictive after, say midnight, than before.

This might make some sense if the licensing regime was consistent and only applied to high-risk entertainments. But of course it is all-embracing, and is manifestly inconsistent as demonstrated by the uniformly harsh treatment of live music alongside the exemption for amplified broadcast entertainment. Indeed, since there is no requirement to disclose broadcast entertainment, or the provision of 'incidental' recorded music on licence applications, local residents will be denied any chance to comment about that. The present proposals are unlikely to make any impact on the nuisance caused by people outside premises, and that probably explains why the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (DEFRA) has hastily commissioned an investigation into the noise nuisance implications of the Licensing Bill.



Public entertainment, which would be covered by the premises licence, would be defined as music or dancing, or entertainment of a like kind, which is presented publicly for commercial purposes or for gain. Public singing which is not undertaken for profit or gain would not be affected.

Very confusing. The Bill defines music as '...vocal or instrumental music or any combination of the two' (Schedule 1, para 16) and defines 'premises' as 'any place' (Clause 188). 'Entertainment' is defined, among other things, as 'a performance of live music... in the presence of an audience... provided for the purpose, or purposes which include the purpose, of entertaining that audience' (Sch 1, para 2(f)). The presence of any spectators constitutes an audience (Sch 1, para 2(2)).



If the place is 'made available' (Sch 1, para 1(3)) so as to enable the entertainment, and if it is 'to any extent for members of the public or a section of the public' (Sch 1, para 1(2)(a)) then the public singing would be illegal unless licensed.



This presumably explains why, during the 12 December 2002 Lords Committee debate on the Licensing Bill, Andrew McIntosh, a government whip, confirmed that carol singing in public places such as railway stations or supermarkets would require a licence. Expert licensing lawyers agree that virtually all public singing, whether paid or not, is in fact caught by the new regime, although the government denies that this was their intention.



We would not accept that it is the case that certain types of music, for example acoustic, are never "noisy" or that they should be excluded from the licensing regime.

In view of the exemption for amplified broadcast music, or amplified 'incidental' recorded music, however powerful the equipment used, this statement is absurd.



If public music is to be performed at a premises, then the licensing authority would have the power to impose necessary and proportionate conditions in order to protect residents and customers. The conditions would not be standardized. The licensing authority would be required to tailor them to the style of venue. Major venues staging rock bands would be likely to be the subject of more restrictive conditions than a small pub or club which puts on un-amplified live music.

Independent health and safety experts have confirmed that for all but exceptionally high-risk entertainments (such as large numbers of people dancing to music in confined spaces) local authorities already have adequate powers irrespective of licensing controls.



The Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974 (HSWA) applies to workplaces where public entertainment is taking place, and might include a pub, restaurant or a church. Under the act employers have a duty to ensure the health, safety and welfare of their employees as well as the health and safety of others who may be affected by their work activity. The Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations 1999 state that employers must undertake a risk assessment of their work activity and workplace. If a landlord of a pub employs a couple of musicians to perform he has to ensure that this activity can be done safely. To do this he will have had to, as a requirement of the Management Regulations, undertaken a risk assessment to identify and control any hazards such as the increased risk of fire or the added burden placed on any electrical systems. Regardless of the requirements or conditions of a licence, employers have a duty to ensure that they meet the minimum requirements of health and safety legislation, and the government has in effect indicated that it believes these minimum requirements are sufficient in every case where satellite or terrestrial tv is provided for pub customers.



Local authorities are empowered to enforce health and safety legislation at certain premises under the Health and Safety (Enforcing Authority) Regulations* [see ref below] 1998 (and previously under earlier enforcing authority regulations). Therefore, if a local authority inspector visits a workplace and finds that health and safety is not properly managed then they have the power to request that improvements be made or that activities stop until the required health and safety standards have been met.



The fire service has also informed me that their inspectors have a similar power in respect of requiring improvements to be made in the emergency lighting and so on. I understand that under the Fire Precautions Act 1971 they can also close a premises immediately if there is an imminent fire hazard.



* Schedule 1 of the Health and Safety (Enforcing Authority) Regulations sets out the 'Main activities which determine whether local authorities will be enforcing authorities' (i.e. of health and safety legislation). Para 9 stipulates the following activities: 'The practice or presentation of the arts, sports, games, entertainment or other cultural or recreational activities except where the main activity is the exhibition of a cave to the public'.



The statutory requirements for employers to undertake comprehensive risk assessments and the statutory inspection and enforcement duties of the local authority and fire service, are a very powerful combination. A lawyer with licensing and health and safety expertise told me that safe capacities can be achieved through this mechanism, without a licence condition. I think this is why Licensing Minister Kim Howells has never claimed that abolition of the two performer exemption was necessary on public safety grounds. He has only said it is because 'one musician with modern amplification can make more noise than three without'.



The Scottish example demonstrates that where live music is secondary to the main business, and is confined to permitted hours, no additional controls are necessary.



The new reform bill would require local authorities to follow rules and procedures. They would have no discretion to refuse a licence or impose any condition unless a reasonable objection to the licensees operating plan has been raised by the police, an environmental health officer, the fire authority or boat residents. In granting or refusing licences, or imposing any conditions, the local council would be legally bound to take into account guidance issued by the Secretary of State. Departure from this guidance, without a good or valid reason, would provide grounds for an appeal to the courts.

This sounds good, but as already explained, the leisure industry is extremely sceptical that government guidance will produce a sea-change in the way local authorities approach licensable entertainments. Significantly, the guidance has not yet been published, and the Lords have already objected strongly that the Secretary of State will have very strong powers that will not be subject to their scrutiny.



As you may know the Licensing Bill was introduced on 14 November and it must now be for Parliament to debate its merits.

And for concerned members of the public to continue to make representations to their MPs.



Yours sincerely

­Claire Vickers

Alcohol & Entertainment Licensing Division


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 07:56 AM

What is DCMS please?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 08:52 AM

DCMS is the Depatment of Culture, Media and Sport. If the clicky hasn't worked, there web site is at http://www.culture.gov.uk/


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 08:28 PM

At the beginning of 2003, we now over 17,000 people who do understand what the Bill means in practice.

This is a great response!

But we still have a big job to convince our MPs and media, that the Government really are not aware of the serious implications or the Bill, of what their own Bill actually contains.......

And to get those MPs to reflect, in the Commons where it matters, the views of the people who will be voting for them locally.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: ET
Date: 02 Jan 03 - 06:59 AM

Clause 20 of their guidance notices (cl 177 of the Bill) says

"finally, it would be recommended that proper account is taken of the need to promote live music, dancing and theatre for the wider cultural benefit of communities generally".

This wooly stuff is to be part of the guidance notes to local authorities. This will have them shaking in their shoes!!!

I agree very much with Shambles that MP's do not understand what they are doing here. I doubt if the Department of Culture does really!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: GUEST,ET
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 07:21 AM

For circulation

Paul Vaughan is Chairman of the Magistrates' Association in Worcester and Chairman of the Worcester Three Choirs Festival. He has kindly provided me with his view of the Licensing Bill and has given permission to distribute this widely (it will be posted on to the MU website in due course).

Note particularly points 10 and 11 in relation to government arguments that the abolition of existing PEL exemptions is necessary for public safety reasons:

* * *

1) The Government has signalled its intention to remove from Magistrates their responsibility for licensing (broadly alcohol licensing).
2) We have been given no satisfactory reason for this.
3) Properly trained magistrates, formed into licensing committees, have been fulfilling, effectively, efficiently and diligently, a responsibility for licensing for many years. Sitting as a committee of at least three, we maintain that, among many other benefits, this system is corruption proof. I myself am a long-standing licensing chairman.
4) Magistrates hear cases on a daily basis, in which alcohol is cited as a reason for offences being committed. "Your worship, my client was in drink at the time . . ." is an almost daily mantra from defending solicitors. Therefore, there is good reason for Magistrates to continue to make their valuable input into this area of the law. We see the picture (usually in full Technicolor!) from all angles.
5) Magistrates are volunteers. Therefore, all licensing activity by Magistrates has been carried out for countless years very inexpensively, or on an expenses only basis. Apart from full day licensing courts, in the past, it has not been unusual for us to work well into the night on visits to licensed premises; this for no payment whatsoever (apart from the reimbursement of petrol expenses).
6) Local authorities are, in general, delighted to have more powers, and have readily accepted the notion of taking over alcohol licensing, but clearly, they are not going to take over all those responsibilities (formerly the Magistrates') without additional budgetary provision. My Association believes that the costings for setting up new council posts, support staff and so on to cope with the new burden are considerable.
7) We venture to suggest that the imposition of fees on music performance - across the board, from one man in a pub to 500 in a cathedral, is the result of a simple fiscal imperative. Money is needed to enable the councils to take over licensing work from the Magistrates. This has to be generated somehow.
8) Clearly the Government is not going to provide all, if any, of the additional monies necessary and being demanded as a prerequisite by Local Authorities, from central funds ! How simple therefore to impose fees on music - citing health and safety as the plank (or do I mean sieve?) upon which to sail this one up the river.
9) Should this Bill be allowed to proceed - even in an ameliorated form (for example with much reduced fees) - let there be no mistake, once the Bill is enacted, fees would be later variable at a stroke, in an upwards only direction.
10) There has never been a health and safety issue with the Three Choirs Festival Concerts we have been putting on in Worcester, Hereford or Gloucester Cathedrals for the past 275 years, or indeed with those huge number of events which take place as part of the Fringe throughout the City and County. We are already carefully regulated by bodies such as the Fire Brigade, which limits the number of seats we may set out in the Cathedrals, and the disposition of those seats. There has never been an audience placed in peril in our Cathedrals and, to the best of my knowledge, in any other Cathedral in the land. Why then, this sudden rush to "protect the public"?
11) This is 'Yes Minister' politics at play and has nothing to do with public protection.
12) Deregulate licensing by all means - carefully and judiciously - but leave it in the hands of the Magistracy - which have proven themselves safe over many years.

(By way of a postscript, I should add that, as a long-serving magistrate, I am only too aware of the correlation between alcohol and crime. But the practice of tipping all drinkers onto the streets at 11.15pm - many of them having accelerated their intake of alcohol substantially between 10.30pm and 11pm in some sort of race to the bell - is clearly not in the public interest. Many of the tipees are then unable to get into the night clubs (eg. can't afford price of admission, are too drunk, wrong attire/footwear etc) and it is then that the troubles begin. The cost of policing all of this is very high. Ask any police force where the majority of their manpower is disposed between 10.45pm and 2.30am? So, personally, I am very much for the ending of those regulations (permitted hours) which, after all, were originally imposed during WW1 to ensure that munitions workers arrived relatively sober and rested at the munitions factories the next morning. Let people drink up and go home when they please and allow pubs to close when the landlord realises that there are not enough people on the premises to make staying open viable).

With all good wishes
Paul Vaughan
Chairman
The Three Choirs Festival - Worcester
and
Chairman - The Magistrates' Association (Worcestershire)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 01:47 PM

Nearly 19,000. Well 18,988 to be exact!

The follwing from Hamish Birchall.

With thanks and acknowledgements to MODAL's mailout:

Please come to the first public meeting for proper debate for musicians affected by the Bill. The press will attend.

Monday 6 January, 1pm in the Union Chapel, Compton Terrace, Islington, London.

Speakers include:
Tom Robinson - Musician, broadcaster, and seasoned campaigner
David Heath MP - Liberal-Democrat
Chris Hodgkins - Director of Jazz Services
Hamish Birchall - Musicians' Union adviser


In West Berkshire the Council have called for an open forum on the same day so that licencees and entertainers can meet and discuss the implications. There are some very sensible parts to the Licensing Bill, but little which apply to live music.

This is your chance to really find out the truth. Is the drama becoming a crisis, what can be done and how ?

Be There !

Directions:
Union Chapel, Compton Terrace, N1 2XD is across the road from Highbury & Islington
Tube Station (Victoria Line). Turn right out of the station, cross Upper Street
below the big roundabout and you'll see Union Chapel in front of you.
www.unionchapel.org.uk

For further information contact:

Mark Ringwood
mARKO pOLO
The Barn, Fordwater Lane, Chichester,
West Sussex PO19 6PT
T: 01243 789786 F: 789787
M: 07802 5000 50
www.markopolo.co.uk
www.rootsaroundtheworld.info
www.lostinfrance.org.uk


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: fiddler
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 02:02 PM

OK then new stats

Based on UK Over 18 Population (therby able to vote
at 18997(just checked) 0.042 good going!
Based on over 16 0.040%

England and Wales only varies these totals to 0.047 and 0.046 respectively.

A


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 05:17 PM

19161 - this is an amazing level of support. I have emailed my MP again badgering him to sign EDM 331.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 01:16 PM

19,634.

The point is well made that No 10 Downing Street (i.e. Ali C), do recognise E petions. So if Alistair Campbell says it is OK to recognise that over 19,000 people have signed up to the wording of EDM 331, it must be OK for New Labour MPs in particilar, to reflect the views of this 'focus group' and also sign EDM 331?

It will be interesting to read the reasons why they will not.

EDM 331 Mudcat thread

http://edm.ais.co.uk/weblink/html/motion.html/ref=331


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 05:08 PM

IanC, could you have a look at the stats please? As far as I can see the dates of signature are not displayed otherwise I would have tried to inform myself.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 03:47 AM

19871

The only way to work out the stats I can see is to look at the number of signatures against time as shown in this thread.

Referring to the the Fairport thread, we seem to be running at 0.86 Cropredys at the moment.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 04:41 AM

Here's a list of the numbers of votes at a date & time. I haven't put all the entries above in, especially where there are several on one day. (Dates are in UK format)

14/12/2002 02:08,39
15/12/2002 19:55,860
16/12/2002 11:10,1667
17/12/2002 09:34,3000
18/12/2002 04:45,4000
19/12/2002 03:09,5436
20/12/2002 05:21,7295
22/12/2002 03:54,10000
23/12/2002 10:10,11886
24/12/2002 04:07,12632
26/12/2002 14:02,13919
28/12/2002 17:15,15007
30/12/2002 04:03,15592
31/12/2002 16:49,16667
03/01/2003 13:47,18988
05/01/2003 03:47,19871

Shoved into Excel and asking for various trend lines suggests that there is, as yet, no way of guessing how high it could go - its still going up fairly smoothly at around 500 per day.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 06:49 AM

19,962.............

Fast nearing another milestone. Who will be number 20,000?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Oaklet
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 07:34 AM

Paul Hickson of Horncastle, Lincs!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 09:12 AM

i downloaded some hardcopy petition forms 2 collect names from various fcs, sar's, & sessions i attend. these r good 2 get from petitioners with no emails or online access.

Hard copy petition forms can be downloaded & printed from

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lancashirefolk/Petition/PETITION./doc

they can be forwarded direct to:

Graham Dixon – 77 Hayfield Ave – Hoghton – Lancs PR5 0AX
Before 15th March please.


please feel free 2 do this for any folk clubs, sessions, singarounds, or other music/dance events you may attend.


also support from non uk petitioners in USA & other overseas will be most valuable.

cheers,

mr h


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: GUEST,ET
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 04:27 PM

The online petition opposing the live music provisions of the Licensing Bill passed the 20,000 signature mark at lunchtime today (Sunday 5 Jan 03).


Tell your MP. I have emailed Sunday Times Culture. Have told my MP David Davies. Have told Shadow Culture Secretary. Have told them I have spoken to 20 non musiciains on this subject and non can beleive their ears - tats potentially 20,000 x 20 which is I think 400,000 voters!

Keep up intense pressure. Drive Howells mad. kim.howells@culture.gsi.gov.uk. His assistant Claire Vickers has set up her e-mail to no longer receiving. I wonder why.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 06:05 AM

21063 Total Signatures!!

on epetition + many more on hard copy petitions circulated at folk clubs, sinarounds, sessions etc


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: IanC
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 08:58 AM

I've been off the web for a few days rebuilding our main fileserver, so haven't been able to monitor the progress of the petition much until today. Also, the Christmas period was always likely to have an unpredictable effect.

Here's the best I've got so far.

Though there was a decrease to 500 signings per day from the plateau of 1,600, this has now been reversed following the Christmas break.

Today at 10:23 GMT there were 20,932 signatures. Now, 13:56 GMT there are 21,610 ... i.e. 678 signatures in 3.5 hours. This suggests that we're up at around 1,500 signatures per day (or basically where we left off before Christmas). All I can really say, until it starts to drop in a predictable fashion is that you can add at least 3,000 to that number.

So, looks like a minimum of 25,000 at the moment.

:-)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: IanC
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 11:33 AM

Just sent this brief letter to the editor of the Church of England Newspaper in the hope of stirring them up a bit.

Dear sir

I am writing in response to the Anglican Church's apparent attitude to the new licensing bill currently going through parliament.

If it remains unamended, the bill will by its existence outlaw almost all traditional entertainment in this country. Those affected will include, among many others, Morris Dancers, Folk Musicians, Carol Singers and even Church Bellringers.

When the powers that be in the Anglican church heard that it would also affect concerts held in churches they were, quite rightly, concerned and began lobbying to some considerable effect in the House of Commons. However, the extent of their requests (which, by the way, the government appears to have assented to) was that an exemption should be applied to concerts held in churches.

In the cause of natural justice, I am very surprised that more solidarity with other groups was not shown. Has the church given up on justice, or is it simply seeking special treatment for itself these days?

Yours sincerely
Ian Chandler


:-)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 11:36 AM

good one ian!!!!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 01:10 PM

Thanks Ian

We don't know for sure what the Government has in mind. I fear that just to waste time and do nothing but wait until this fudge is produced, is not a good move

The pressure should be kept up now, for when they do produce whatever surreal compromise that think will keep the church lobby happy, they are unlikely to change or climb down again and we may have lost the opportunity to kick them when they are down. It is not a good idea to just wait for them to get up again.

The resilience and sheer bare faced cheek of Dr Howells is demonstrated by the following.

Dr. Howells: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will know that, for a long time, the Conservative Government had a chance to get rid of the rule that has existed for 40 years which says that churches inside London have to apply for and receive a licence for the playing and singing of secular music. I hear what he says, but I hope that he will accept that we do not need lessons from the Conservative party on getting rid of the regulations.

This to justify why was proposing in his Bill, not that that his Government were to be credited with getting rid of this rule, but that the licensing requirement for concerts in London churches, which he critises the Tories for not scrapping, should be extended to the rest of England and Wales!

I suspect, if they are still in the mood for a fight, that the most likely outcome is that all chuch concerts should still be subject to the requirement but for free or a reduced rate. That will mean that the fees will go up for other premises, as there will be less premises providing the revenue.

Either way, the fact that they are now being forced to reconsider anything, will give us the opportunity to show up the bogus nature of the basis of the Bill.

If they are not in the mood for a fight, the more that can be thrown at them, at this point, the better. Whether this is the media, our MPs, demos or whatever else.......Especially from the non-church concert lobby.

22,381..........!!!

The following from Graham Dixon.

It's gone balistic today 2000 in 24 hours - I'm getting emails from Jazz - Choirs - Rock - Comedians - War re-enactment societies.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: vindelis
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 01:12 PM

Has anyone in the football fraternity heard of this bill? I know that it may not be classed, strictly, as 'folk music' yet, but can anyone think of Liverpool Football fans NOT singing 'You'll never walk alone?' and what about the annual Trooping of the Colour, to commemorate the Queen's Official Birthday? The permutations are endless.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 05:18 PM

22,932...............!!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 08:04 PM

23139!! + as yet uncounted hard copy names!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: GUEST,Pete
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 08:41 PM

Will hard copy names count?

According to the government site (linked to at the top of this thread) "The data should have been collected electronically"

Quite how they'd know one way or another, I don't know. It would however be a shame if the petition was disqualified over a technicality.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: READ! UK Music license bill
From: GUEST,Julia
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 10:43 PM

This bill is an outrageous assault on traditional music and basic civil liberties!
Here's the petition against it
http://www.PetitionOnline.com/2inabar/
Please read and support as you can


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: fiddler
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 03:44 AM

In case anyone did not know!

Kim Howells now has a standard letter which goes out to MPs as well if she gets a letter about the act. John Redwood forwarded me the copy he got from her.

Interestingly she didn't (or her secretary didn't) have the good grace to fill in the balnk bits left for names etc. and I turned in to a woman (became a her) half way through! I bet the NHS didn't pay for that!!!

I shall consider sending this off to Tony Blair, our erstwhile PM from good old Stillington only about 10 miles from where I was born (as an aside) to emphasise that she may be out of touch with what is going on in the world and only seeing it thorufh rose tinted glasses which can have long lasting effects as has been seen by other political parties in the past. It also shows a level of contempt for those bothering to make any comment. All right so John Redwood is a Conservative in a big way, BUT, I am one of his constituents and no one (in theory) knows if I vote for him or not!!!!

Redwood describes the letter as 'bureaucratic and defensive' I can't say I disagree with him.

A


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 04:03 AM

Kim Howells is a man...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 04:06 AM

GUEST, Pete,

Graham Dixon, organiser & co-ordinator of the petition has asked that hardcopies be sent to him.

I'm sure he & his chums will make VERY certain they are counted.

They can be forwarded direct to:

Graham Dixon – 77 Hayfield Ave – Hoghton – Lancs. PR5 0AX
Before 15th March please.

There's a link to Graham's e-mail on www.musiclovers.ukart.com if you've other concerns.

cheers,

mr h


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: fiddler
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 04:09 AM

I know Kim howells is a man but if he she it can change my sex what's good for the goose etc. - Irony or summat - sorry!!! Only trying to keep amused!

A


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 05:44 AM

Hamish Birchall is on 97.3 FM (UK, London Area) this PM at 3 UK time.

I think I have BBC South East TV interested in the story as well.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: clansfolk
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 06:59 AM

Radio Lancashire "might" do a phone-in re PEL on thurs 27th FEB - Mobile IT "Blue Bus" will be at The Steamer Pub in Fleetwood Lancashire (Home of the Fylde Folk Festival) on the same day - hope to arrange a "link" with the above - Music in the Pub and plenty of people?????, Petition in the pub and information on hand........

will keep u informed of "what's happening" so anyone who wants to come along can do so.........


Pete Skinner


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 07:38 AM

23986 Total Signatures


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 09:14 AM

I've just come across a fascinating article about Junior Crehan (renowned West Clare fiddle player) here.

It's much more than a biographical note, it explores the whole social background of Irish trad music in the 20th century. It contains an interesting passage on the perverse effects of public performance licensing legislation which almost drove the music to extinction, and some of you might be able to incorporate this into the campaign against PEL:

"The policy of Fianna Fáil was to encourage all things Irish, and in official circles Irish traditional music was elevated to a position second only to the Irish language (itself in steep decline: between 1881 and 1926 the number of Irish speakers in the country had fallen by 41 per cent). The Irish Folklore Commission was founded in 1935 in an attempt to recover and record the vast repository of folklore before swift change overtook the countryside. However, these activities were paralleled by a simultaneous campaign of cultural repression, which succeeded in banning 1,200 books and 140 periodicals between 1930 and 1939. It could not succeed, however, in halting the tide of foreign culture which swept Ireland in the form of films, radio broadcasts and gramophone records, aided by the new mobility provided by the spread of motor transport.

"In 1936, the government, spurred on by the combined weight of clergy, judiciary and police, enacted the Public Dance Halls Act. This required all public dances to be licensed and laid down the conditions under which licences might be issued by the District Justices. As the late Breandán Breathnach pointed out in his excellent booklet, Dancing in Ireland:

'Intentionally or otherwise, country house dancing was not excluded from the scope of the Act ... That it extended to parties in private houses when dancing took place is unlikely ... [but] the local clergy and gardai acted as if it did and by their harassment they put an end to this kind of dancing in those areas of rural Ireland where it still survived.'

"Junior's description of the desolation caused by the economic and social upheavals of the 'thirties is graphic and moving:
'So, they barred the country house dance, and the priests was erecting parish halls. All they wanted was to make money - and they got 3d. into every shilling tax out of the tickets to pay the government for tax. So the country house dance was knocked out then, and 'twas fox-trots, and big old bands coming down, and our type, we'd be in a foreign country then. We couldn't put up with it at all, the noise and the microphones, and jazz and so on ... the music nearly died out altogether - Irish music. Then the emigration started, a lot of the lads I used to play with went off to England and America, and there was no-one but myself - Scully was dead - and I used to go down the road, and I used, honest to God, I used to nearly cry. Nowhere to go, no-one to meet, no sets in the houses, nothing left but the hall ...'

"And so, a movement with the laudable aim of preserving and promoting the culture of the people of rural Ireland had, by a combination of mismanagement, narrow minded bigotry and, most importantly, a total lack of perception of the results of its economic policies on the rural population, virtually succeeded in destroying the traditional culture of Ireland."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: IanC
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 09:45 AM

To business again.

From 14:00 yesterday to 14:00 today, over 2,500 names were added to the petition. While this is probably - in part - a reaction to the Christmas break, there is no doubt that other groups of people are getting to know about it and signing. The total currently stands at 24,289 and it seems likely now that it will go over 30,000 at least.

In the meantime, I have sent the following e-mail to the General Secretary of the National Association of Choirs.

I don't know how closely your association is monitoring the new licensing bill, currently going through parliament. If you are not, you may be surprised to find that, as the bill currently stands, a number of the activities of church choirs may be affected.

It seems likely at present that, due to lobbying by the Anglican Church, concerts held in churches may be exempted. However, many of your member choirs are probably involved in other musical entertainments such as carol singing etc.

This bill is supposed to be aimed at making 24 hour licensing of pubs possible, but the entertainment clause as it is currently written will affect morris dancers, carol singers, church concerts and bell ringers amongst other groups.

The wording at present means that a license is required for ANY LIVE MUSICAL PERFORMANCE at ANY VENUE ... the bill does not limit itself to pubs and clubs in this respect. The definition of a venue given in the bill is essentially ANYWHERE.

Here's the text of the bill. You should note that local authorities are known at present for their VERY LITERAL interpretation of the concept of entertainment.

http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/ld200203/ldbills/001/03001.i-viii.html

Here's a link to the recent House of Lords debate (it's quite long and goes on far beyond the end of the page ...)

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld199900/ldhansrd/pdvn/lds02/text/21212-01.htm#21212-01_head2

You may wish to encourage your members to join in the protest by signing the petition

http://www.petitiononline.com/2inabar/petition.html

Best regards
Ian Chandler


:-)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 10:03 AM

some more useful links,

a hardcopy petition to gather signatures from Folk Clubs & 'any other places'

http://www.musiclovers.ukart.com/

&a 'user friendly' protest flier to be circulated similarly,

Folkwebs.com


cheers,

mr h


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 10:05 AM

The bill is passed
The bill is wrong
I like looking at pretty girls' thongs


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 10:12 AM

sorry that second link doesn't work.

it should be:

'& a 'user friendly' protest flier to be circulated similarly,'


http://homepage.ntlworld.com/james.lawton/


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 11:03 AM

24498 Total Signatures


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 11:14 AM

Hamish Birchall is on 97.3 FM (UK, London Area) this PM at 3 UK time.

As that broadcast has just finished it will be interesting to see what effect there is on votes over the next 8 hrs or so.

The broadcast had a couple of interesting features, one of which was that few of the panel or the callers seemed to have heard much about it before. Publicity definitely needs to keep going and to get much wider.

One recurring theme was the bill was almost being dismissed on occasion because no-one could believe it could be as bad as it is being described.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: IanC
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 11:14 AM

Similar e-mail to the above sent to The Salvation Army press office, with reference to Salvation Army band activities. They do street corner music (not part of a religious service, though religious in nature) and (at least my local band does) play carols in pubs at Christmas.

:-)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: IanC
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 12:28 PM

Got th following reply from Peter Marshall of the National Association of Choirs.

Hi Ian,
Thanks for your note. We have been following the bill and have written to the Minister concerned - no reply!

I tried the links you put in your email but could not get the ones to the bill or HoL to work. Could you please confirm them to me?

I have registered on the '2inabar' petition and have suggested to our members that they do the same.

Regards,
Peter Marshall, General Secretary, NAC


Can anyone suggest anybody else I might contact?

:-)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 01:35 PM

Only the the Pope left?
*Smiles*

Doing a great job, but as reported above and as I am sure we all know, still not enough people are aware of the true horror of the Bill, so we must use whatever method we can to change this.

If that means reading the same stuff more than once, just grin and bear it, it may well be the first time another person has heard of it.

24,846...............


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 03:58 PM

25,169...............


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: fiddler
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 06:00 AM

Are we in touch with the licenced victuallers etc.

There is an exhibition in London in February perhaps we should see if we can get some publicity or aquire a 'free' spot / stand there possibly liaise with the MU or something.

I'm having lots of spurious thoughts and at least if I throw them at you guys they can be considered and even if you say 'bog off' at least we (or I) know we've been there.

Last night at my Clog and step dance group all apart form two people had signed. One does not have internet therefore he will be my first hard copy signature next week and the other is a magistrate and is involved form a different angle and cannot sign for a number of reasons.

A


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 06:48 AM

This from Hamish Birchall.

Licensing: Labour backbenchers to meet Howells tomorrow.

With hundreds of letters now pouring into Parliament objecting to the live music provisions of the Licensing Bill, Labour backbenchers are becoming increasingly worried. At very short notice, they have arranged a meeting with licensing Minister Kim Howells. This meeting will be held tomorrow, Thursday 9 January, at noon.

I only learned of this yesterday evening when Martin Linton (Lab, Battersea) contacted me to ask for the names of other Labour MPs who have shown an interest. He wants as many as possible to attend the meeting with Howells.

If your MP is Labour please contact them immediately (the House of Commons switchboard is 020 7219 3000) and urge them to attend this meeting and to register their intention to attend with Martin Linton on 020 7219 1181. If you don't know who your MP is, www.faxyourmp.com will them automatically from your postcode.

A footnote: government Ministers continue dismiss out of hand the legal advice that private events where performers are paid are caught by the Bill. In fact, on the day the Bill was published, the Arts Council received a legal opinion from one of the UK's leading licensing lawyers confirming that corporate hospitality events where performers are paid were licensable under the Bill as published. This contradicted the government's own statement published in the Explanatory Notes that accompany the Bill.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 04:38 PM

27,624...........


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
Next Page

  Share Thread:
More...


This Thread Is Closed.


Mudcat time: 15 May 7:16 PM EDT

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 2022 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.