BS: Black looters, white finders

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Sep 05 - 09:42 PM

My dog is named Gyp a diminuative of Gypsy from the name of a dog in Charles Dickens' book "David Copperfield".

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Sep 05 - 09:36 PM

I imagine that the tendency to associate the word the word "black" with negative things would have come from the idea of light and darkness, with the latter being more threatening, since you can't see what is going on in the dark, and so forth. That would imply that the same kind of negative associations would be likely to occur in dark-skinned societies as in light-skinned ones, and I believe this is borne out in practice.

The use of "black" and "white" to refer to skin colours is really rather odd - it generally bears very little relationship to the actual skin colour of the people so termed.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Sep 05 - 09:21 PM

Hey, I ain't followed this thread since I'z been too busy movin' and stuff but I just checked it out and read Mizi Azizi's thread above about the way Anglo Saxon's have used langiage to put so much negativity on the word black...

I gotta a different take on it...

First of all, as an art major, black is not a color so when it comes to the color'eds, that would more likely apply to caucasions!!! White is a mixture of all the basic colors: red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo and violet... If you were to take these basic colrs and make a wheel with equal parts of each as slices like in a pie and spin it real fast guess what... It would turn white, 'er very close to it...

So to my white catters, how's it feel to discover that you is the colored folks???

Nevermind...

But lets take abother look at black and they way that Anglo Saxtons have messed it all up... Yeah, granted, they have done eveything in theior power to cover their guilt by attaching as much negative associations with it but lets just look at life fir a second...

Daylight is the time when most humans go out and get all stressed, fight wars, make stupid decisions and the night time is like a respite, where we take time to refresh our bodies...

Yeah, I love the darkness and the absence of color as much as the daylight and the stress and the color... Darkness isn't scarey....

No, quite the opposite... It represents a time of refreshment... A time of rejuvination... A time to let today's disappointments turn into yet another time of hope...


Sure, this may seem to be very threatenin' to lots og Anglo-Saxons because then they might have to face the reality atht "black" has gotten a bad rap and if so, why???

Tough questions here...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Azizi
Date: 18 Sep 05 - 08:55 PM

Off topic:

Q,

"Gyp" [gipped] had that meaning [getting ahead of someone in line]when I was growing up in Atlantic City, New Jersey in the 1950s. It may even predate that. Another word for gipping is 'bogarding' {I believe this is from Humphrey Bogart}.

I believe that the other definition for gyp-"being cheated out of something" was also used when I was growing up. And both of them are in current use in my adopted hometown of Pittsburgh, PA.

Maybe this [usage]is a Black thing, but I rather doubt it is confined only to us.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Sep 05 - 08:32 PM

gyp- to get ahead of someone without permission- never heard that one before. Perhaps a new meaning popping up.
Not in Lighter, 1994, Vol. 1, Historical Dictionary of American Slang.

Also used in the British military and civil service to refer to an Egyptian or Egyptian practices (1889).
Applied to horsemen (or small stables), who follow a racing circuit, and are not in the big money (1930s). Not derogatory.

There are so many discriminatory words that it would take a book to list them all.

Wolfgang's "turk"- In American usage, "a young, dynamic person eager for change"- Webster's (often applied to a young politician on the rise). Not necessarily derogatory.
The English have several definitions (OED) but I don't know which are current.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Azizi
Date: 18 Sep 05 - 06:03 PM

See this excertpt of an online article on Negative connotations of the color Black :

In the Western world, black is most often used with a negative connotation. The reasons for this are various, but the most widely accepted explanations are that night is experienced by humans as negative and dangerous. A secondary reason is that stains are most visible as dark additions to pale materials. In traditional class-based cultures "pale" skin indicated genteel domestic or intellectual indoor-work as opposed to rough outdoor labor in the fields. Aspects of this black/white opposition are not unique to the West, as, for example in the Indian varna system. African and African-American writers such as Franz Fanon, Langston Hughes, Maya Angelou, and Ralph Ellison in particular identify a number of negative symbolisms surrounding the word "black", arguing that the good vs. bad dualism associated with white and black provide prejudiced connotations to color metaphors for race.

A "black day", in these cultures, would refer to a sad or tragic day. The Romans already marked fasti days with white stones and nefasti days with black.

e.g. the Black September in Jordan refers to a month in which thousands were killed.

Black Monday, stock crash of October 19, 1987

Black Tuesday is the day of the stock market crash in 1929 which is the start of the Great Depression.

Black Wednesday caused Britain to pull out of the ERM.

Black Thursday, date preceding the stock crash of October 29, 1929, forecasting the stock market crash and the Great Depression

Black Friday, various tragic events.

many poems and songs use the word black negatively (e.g. Paint it black (Rolling Stones), Baby's in black (Beatles), Black eyed dog (Nick Drake).

In these cultures, the color black is often used in painting, film, and literature to evoke a sense of the fear or to symbolize death. It has also been adopted a symbolic color of the Halloween festival.

In English heraldry, black means darkness, doubt, ignorance, and uncertainty. (The American Girls Handy Book, p. 370)

Black is often a color of mourning. Historically, widows and widowers were expected to wear black for a year after the death of their spouses.

Black comedy is a form of comedy dealing with morbid and serious topics.

Black magic is an evil form of magic, often connected with death.
In computer security, blackhat is an attacker with evil intentions.

A blacklist is a list of undesirable persons or entities.

Evil witches are sterotypically dressed in black and good fairies in white. Melodrama villains are dressed in black and heroines in white dresses. In many Hollywood Westerns, bad cowboys wear black hats while the good ones wear white. Funeral dress is black, wedding gowns are white.

The black-market is illegal.

Blackmail is illegal and is perceived as immoral.

The black sheep of the family is the ne'er-do-well.

The infamous "black hole of Calcutta."

To blackball them is to block them from being admitted.

Black thoughts are dark ones.

A black mood is a bad one (e.g. Winston Churchill's depression, which he called "my black dog").

A black cat usually means bad luck.

If you sink the black eight-ball in billiards, you lose. (The ball with which you sink all others is the white cue ball.)

A black mark against you is a bad thing.

A dark night is "black as hell".

A black-hearted person is mean and unloving.

Black propaganda is the use of known falsehoods, partial truths, or masquerades in propaganda to confuse an opponent.

****

As to the example " Black thoughts are dark ones. ", the author of this article may not have considered that he/she used "dark" as a negative.

However, that article does list some positive meanings of the color "black". Too bad most Black children aren't familiar with those positive meanings.

In 2005 you can still hear African American children hurl what they consider an insult to another African American by calling him or her "blackie".

All of this to saym that we've still got alot of work to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Azizi
Date: 18 Sep 05 - 05:55 PM

"To gyp [someone]" also means to get ahead of someone in line without permission.

Needless to say this isn't a good thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Sep 05 - 05:25 PM

To welsh on a debt

To gyp (meaning cheat)

Take French leave

Need some Dutch courage.

Our languages are full of them. Most of the time they are harmless enough, except where they feed into situations where there is genuine current prejudice or discrimination.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Wolfgang
Date: 18 Sep 05 - 05:10 PM

I was open to an innocent interpretation, but I thought that the most likekly interpretation was thoughtlessness betraying a tiny bit of subconscious prejudice.

My focus was not, however, on the USA or on the white/black divide in particular. It was just one of many examples. Other instances:
We have a verb in German, if I translate it verbatim, it says 'to turk' and it means to cheat. I have used it all my life unthinkingly until a student told me I better shouldn't (we have a lot of students of Turkish descent).
Recently, a Mudcatter wanting to express his dislike of the leader of the British BNP called him "Herr Griffin". I guess he even didn't think for a second that German Mudcatters could find the use of the word 'Herr' to express extreme dislike of a person and/or to allude to right radical and fascist positions insulting.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 12:45 PM

"...our culture conditions our interpretation of the language.

True enough of all cultures. And that includes the visual language of photographs.

It will be good when eventually racism is finally gone, and that will only have happened when people are no longer able to understand what it was all about. It hasn't happened yet by a long long way.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 09:15 PM

I think most North Americans would see the post by Wolfgang as loaded. People seeking to influence opinion often start off an argument in just that way; we not only suspect but know there is a hidden dagger. M Ted's reaction mirrored mine.

Wolfgang might be innocent of the intent assigned to him, but our culture conditions our interpretation of the language.
It is also true that criticism (and sometimes even a compliment) by people from outside the country is seldom taken gracefully.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 08:32 PM

What I think is much more interesting is the question of how far people looking at those pictures would be likely interpret them in different ways, in the absence of any captions whatsoever.

Now you might have a point there. A sample of pople from different races, backgrounds, classes etc. asked to caption each could be interesting. As it stands, we do not know how more likely it would be on the evidence provided.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 08:16 PM

I think that is a perfectly straightforward statement, which says what it means and means what it says. Wolfgang uses language very carefully, and the rest of us could learn a lot from him in that way. (And I write that as someone who quite often finds myself disagreeing with him over specific issues.)

In any case I think the matter of whether the captions writers were being racist is not the nub of the matter. What I think is much more interesting is the question of how far people looking at those pictures would be likely interpret them in different ways, in the absence of any captions whatsoever.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 07:54 PM

"Either there is an innocent interpretation and the writer of the captions knows more than can be seen in the pictures or there's a bit of everyday racism showing in the choice of words."

McGrath, Wolfgang is German so maybe the usage differs but had that been written by an English person, I for one would say that statement, coupled with examples and placed in context was loaded one way.

It's not too disimilar to shambles saying "Our volunteer posters who may be well intenioned but..."

That said, wolfgang is generaly very rational so I suppose the benefit of the doubt should be given and I think he expalined in a later post.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 07:36 PM

In fact you are way off the mark, M Ted. Have another look at what Wolfgang actually wtote, and you'll see he makes no assumptions whatsoever:

"Either there is an innocent interpretation and the writer of the captions knows more than can be seen in the pictures or there's a bit of everyday racism showing in the choice of words."

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: M.Ted
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 12:03 PM

A bit late in responding to the inimitable Wolfgang, but better late than never--

No, I am not off the mark--I know exactly what you were doing--you looked at something that you really had no information about, and made a series of unfounded assumptions which led you to conclude that it was a glaring example of American racism, and you sanctimoniously pointed it out--

Bottom line is, lacking information, you made a sweeping judgement about the photos, based only your prejudice concerning America's racism-

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 10:28 AM

This smacks of lazy-ass stupid "police work" on many levels. What in hell were these guys thinking?

****


Judge Orders Release of Jailed Grandmother
September 16, 2005 7:21 AM EDT

KENNER, La. - A 73-year-old diabetic grandmother and church elder who fled Katrina's floodwaters for the safety of a hotel ended up in prison instead for more than two weeks - all over a bite of food. Police in this New Orleans suburb arrested Merlene Maten the day after the hurricane on charges she took $63.50 in goods from a looted deli. Though never before in trouble with the law, her bail was set at a stiff $50,000 and she was shipped away to a state penitentiary.

Family and eyewitnesses insist Maten's prison odyssey was unwarranted, claiming she only had gone to her car to get some sausage to eat when officers cuffed her in frustration, unable to catch younger looters at a nearby store.

Despite intervention from the nation's largest senior lobby, volunteer lawyers from the Federal Emergency Management Agency and even a private attorney, the family fought a futile battle for 16 days to get her freed.

Then, hours after her plight was featured in an Associated Press story, a local judge on Thursday ordered Maten freed on her own recognizance, setting up a sweet reunion with her daughter, grandchildren and 80-year-old husband.

"I'm just gonna hug her and say 'Mom, I'm so sorry this had to happen,'" Maten's tearful daughter, Elois Short, told AP shortly after getting the news.

Prison officials planned to release Maten by this weekend. She must still face the looting charge at a court hearing in October. But the family, armed with several witnesses, intends to prove she was wrongly arrested outside the hotel.

"There were people looting, but she wasn't one of them. Instead of chasing after people who were running, they (police) grabbed the old lady who was walking," said Short, who works in traffic enforcement for neighboring New Orleans police.

Defense attorney Daniel Becnel, family members and witnesses said police snared Maten in the parking lot of a hotel after floodwaters swamped her New Orleans home. She had paid for her room with a credit card and followed authorities' instructions to pack extra food, they said.

She was retrieving a piece of sausage from the cooler in her car and planned to grill it so she and her husband, Alfred, could eat, according to her defenders. The parking lot was almost a block from the looted store, they said.

"That woman was never, never in that store," said Naisha Williams, 23, a New Orleans bank security guard who said she witnessed the episode and is distantly related to Maten. "If they want to take it to court, I'm willing to get on the stand and tell them the police is wrong. She is totally innocent."

Police Capt. Steve Carraway said Wednesday that Maten was arrested in the checkout area of a small store next to police headquarters.

The arrest report is short and assigns the value of goods Maten is alleged to have taken at $63.50. The items are not identified.

"When officers arrived, the arrestee was observed leaving the scene with items from the store. The store window doors were observed smashed out, where entry to the store was made," police reported.

Maten's husband was left at the hotel, until family members picked him up. He is too upset to be interviewed, the family said.

Christine Bishop, the owner of the Check In Check Out deli, said that she was angry that looters had damaged her store, but that she would not want anyone charged with a crime if the person had simply tried to get food to survive. "Especially not a 70-year-old woman," Bishop said.

Short, Maten's daughter, did not witness the incident. She said her mother has led a law-abiding life. She is a deaconess at the Resurrection Mission Baptist Church and won an award for her decades of service at a hospital, Short said.

"Why would someone loot when they had a car with a refrigerator and had paid with a credit card at the hotel?" asked Becnel, Maten's lawyer. "The circumstances defy the theory of looting."

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 11:00 AM

When you use the position as head of an agency as a plum for political payback for supporters and donors, you're going to end up with guys who used to run horse shows managing disaster agencies instead of experienced professionals in the field running things. No mention of 11 years in the horse thing in his FEMA bio, and I expect he didn't do that all of the time, though the rest of his experience doesn't look much better. But looking at the investigative reports out there like in the Boston Herald, this guys' days are numbered.

Too bad only he will take the fall, instead of the guy who put him there to begin with.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 02:24 AM

I was personally isickened by the racism demonstrated by NBC's Today. A short piece on people hoping to find loved ones in a shelter, alive, showed six individuals including two couples. They were all white. Later Matt Lauer commmented on a scene of black people grabbing desperately for water bottles; "It looks like a scene from Somalia".

Now of course the white people hoping for news of loved ones suffered as terribly as did black people hoping for news of loved ones but the report seemed to say that only whites were experiencing tragedy. The remark alluding to Somalia implied that the persons so desperately needing water were on the level of a third world country. Maybe that's not so far fetched but the comment was disrespectful.

I nominate for a presidential medal, the 19 year old black youngster who stole the school bus and helped people from his neighborhood evacuate New Orleans. He is a true hero.

Putting FEMA under Homeland Security was a bad idea. We LOST a city as surely as if a dirty bomb or a nuke had been set off. Less dead, maybe. Can you now see what we will have to face when THAT scenario happens?

The undercurrent of racism in America welled up as a shameful flood but it has always been there. To those of you who like to think in cliches; Mississippi, the "deep south", Louisiana, et al are no more racist than any other part of the country. We are ALL racists, and we need to STOP!


CB

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 01:19 AM

Hundreds of residents at the New Orleans' shelters relied on young teenage men -- commonly referred to by the media as looters -- to scavenge for food at grocery stores in the neighbourhoods surrounding the city's downtown core.

Some of the youths even commandeered New Orleans transit buses to transport people out of town.

"They are Robin Hoods, those boys. Write that down," said Qwentin Williams, 15.

The very end of a much longer story here.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 12:35 AM

Thank you for that story, Robin. That's the best thing about all of this I've read all day.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 12:33 AM

Friends, It's the "New Okies"!!

"If you ain't got the dough-re-me, boys
If you ain't got the do-re-me,
You better go back to ..."------------the ghost of Woody

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 10:54 PM

Strange - for a country that has been so anti-communistic - 'communally sharing property' seems to be be acceptable!

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Charlie Baum
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 10:48 PM

Sometimes, the word "found" serves as a poem in itself, telling you novels about attitudes:

"Today is the first day you will see a smile on some of the officers' faces," said NOPD Capt. Marlon Defillo, who was taking a break on the neutral ground of Loyola Avenue with Detective William Charbonnet. "This has been a tremendous challenge for members of the police department, but they've held their ground. They've given their hearts and souls."

[snip]

Defillo himself was feeling better after shaving for the first time in a week and taking an impromptu bath in the green, leafy water of a backyard swimming pool. He was wearing a clean pair of acid-washed jeans and a polo shirt that he "found."

[from the TImes-Picayune and nola.com]

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 10:20 PM

There was a good segment on Aus TV last night - a reporter went among the (all black) population and the story went to great detail how the people taking items from wrecked shops were ignoring luxury food and just taking basics. He followed one guy who also took some chips and drinks as well (we have some kids here, he said) and followed him as he distributed most of it on his way home. Police cars waved to the guy as they drove past - but there was a white reporter team with him. The guy said the police weren't bothering most people trying to get food.

One elderly lady who said she used to be a night club singer was fearful of taking a bunch of limp flowers with her juice and bread - the reporter said they would die in a few days anyway so it would be all right.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 10:10 PM

Europe Readies Katrina Aid to Send to U.S.
September 05, 2005

BRUSSELS, Belgium - European nations on Monday prepared aid teams, food rations, water pumps and even cruise ships to help U.S. regions hit by Hurricane Katrina. Countries large and small have offered aid - from tiny Luxembourg's beds and blankets to half a million food rations from Germany and Britain. Greece put on standby two cruise ships to house refugees and Sweden has offered aircraft to help distribute aid shipments, said Barbara Helfferich, a European Union spokeswoman.

Helfferich said an EU aid coordinator would go to the United States soon to help ensure aid goes to victims of Katrina in Louisiana, Alabama and Mississippi. U.S. authorities made a rare request for help from Europe over the weekend, asking for anything from diapers and baby formula to forklifts and veterinarian supplies.

Aid flights from overseas will be directed and to Little Rock Air Force Base in Arkansas, unloaded there, and have the material sent to the affected regions to the south, said Air Force Lt. Jon Quinlan. "We've contracted semi-truck drivers to drive the cargo to the Gulf Coast starting tomorrow," Quinlan said. The first plane including food rations arrived Monday from Britain and was unloaded in preparation for the seven-hour drive to New Orleans.

"The United States has been enormously grateful for the outpouring of support both emotional and concrete from allies over the past week," said Victoria Nuland, the U.S. ambassador to NATO. NATO officials said the alliance was coordinating offers of food, shelter and other aid from several allies, including Germany, Canada and Norway which was offering navy divers as well as 10,000 blankets. Latvia and France were preparing to send disaster relief teams.

Non-NATO members were also working with the alliance disaster coordination center, including Switzerland and Russia, which has offered generators, tents and 10,000 meals.

Germany and Britain had already sent 570,000 emergency food rations over the weekend, while Luxembourg was preparing to send a team of five aid experts, two jeeps, and bedding. The Netherlands had deployed a naval frigate, which was transporting drinking water, medical supplies and much needed helicopters.

Many European countries have pledged to release parts of their strategic oil and gas reserves to stabilize global oil supplies. Bangladesh, an impoverished delta nation that is regularly buffeted by cyclones and floods, pledged $1 million and offered the services of rescuers and disaster experts.

A Mexican ship loaded with supplies set sail on Monday from the Gulf Coast port of Tampico, and the country has set up consular offices in trailers around the disaster zone to help some of the estimated 140,000 Mexicans who live in the region, 10,000 of them in New Orleans.

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said last week no aid offer would be refused.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Sidewalk Bob
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 10:06 PM

Yeah, the Bush PR/Big Corpoarte Media have control of the story an' so what we are gettin' is nuthin' but Karl "Mad Scientist" Rove's view of what is happenin' in New Orleans...

You ever wonder why when the story breaks, it's Rove 'n his corporate bed-buddies who control the story??? Then we get the retraction on page A-17 when their lies are exposed???

Hey, I ain't sayin' that some TV's weren't stolen... TV's are stolen in every major city every friggin' night of the year... Like big whup... But Rove, knowin' that his "boy" (Bush) was in deep manure brillently decided that the reason that his "boy" was in deep manure was because of some kid in New Orleans who has grown up like an caged animal in a housing project stole a TV??????

Like, ahhhhhhy, what am I missin' here??? Yeah, it was Rove who played the "race card" and he played it real early!!!!

I can here the conversation now:

Rove to one of his ABC/NBC/FOX/CBS buddies: "Get me some pictures of some black kids taking TV's..."

This makes me sick!!! No, make that sicker than sick...

Bottom line, Bush screwed the heck up while intent on redisributin' wealth from the working and poor folks to his corporate bnuddies and has now been caught (again) and Karl Rove is pullion' every lever in the cab tryin' to get the train to slow down...

Here's hopin' that train got a mi9nd of it's own...

Time for the Bush/Cheney/Rove regime to go down...

Sidewalk Bob, alias Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: ddw
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 09:38 PM

Sorry, McGrath, but I don't think you know the new-gathering process if you think the photographer doesn't have any control over the captions on his pictures. Every paper I ever worked for or know about considers it damned near a firing offence for a photog to come back without solid information about whatever he/she has taken shots of.

Editor try to put things in readable language, but they don't generally extrapolate off what they see to reflect their own prejudices and they certainly don't get to the professional level of a wire service or major newspaper without being pretty sensitive to the kind of thing Wolfgang et al are accusing them of ignoring.

I don't find it too much of a stretch to believe a photojournalist watched something happening and then reported it, do you?

ddw

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 09:20 PM

The Black person who was described as looting wasn't carring a television set or jewlery

Nor was it suggested that he was.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Azizi
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 09:18 PM

Jon, sorry but that explanation is pure deluxe Bull S***.

[I guess it's fitting. After all this is a BS thread.]

But this is far too serious. I mean less we forget these people were in a Category 4 hurricane with no support from the Red Cross, FEMA, etc etc.

The Black person who was described as looting wasn't carring a television set or jewlery. I've read that he was carrying a box of pampers or a boz of food-one or the other.

Looting? Please.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 09:12 PM

Here is another view. An extract:

The Associated Press said its policy was clear. "When we see people go into businesses and come out with goods, we call it looting," said Santiago Lyon, AP's director of photography. "When we just see them carrying things down the road, we call it carrying items."

Lyon said the photographer who took Tuesday's photo, Dave Martin, had seen the man go into the store and take out the items.

As for the other photo, Getty said it stood by its caption and its photographer, Chris Graythen, who says the subjects of his photo were simply picking up items floating by in the dank waters.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Azizi
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 08:54 PM

okay- I didn't practice what I preached.

Here's what I meant to write

"How an African American [or a non-African American] can live in the US of A and not ever be prejudiced I don't know. "

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 08:52 PM

What conclusion do you think I'm drawing? I think you misunderstand the point I'm making. I'm not actually drawing any conclusion about the photographer or the ab]gencies. I was focussing on the different way that people can see the same image, and how it can reflect preconceoptions about "race".
..........................................

Though I'd question whether too many intelligent and honourable journalist - and there are plenty such - would automatically use the term "looting" to describe people taking food and essential supplies from abandoned shops in a disaster such as this. But that's another matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Azizi
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 08:50 PM

[Ohoooo I have been needing to make corrections to posts all night..These discussions touch me greatly and I need to take some deep breathes, use preview, and otherwise 'slow my roll" as the hip hopper say}.

See this correction:

"I say this is with the hope that it may challenge people to be aware of the often subtle and hidden prejudices that still exist in the main stream media, and sometimes within themselves."

-snip-

Maybe I should have said "sometimes within ourselves". Though Lord knows [in the face of great provocation] I really am trying not to be prejudiced and trying to eradicate any prejudice that I have.

How an African American [or a non-African American] an live in the US of A and not ever be prejudiced I don't know. Given the poisonous mass media, education system etc etc IMHO, we all have some eradication work to do.


Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Azizi
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 08:42 PM

Jon, there has been alot of discussion in the blogosphere, in the main stream media, and in direct conversations about these two photo captions.

Because of their stark differences in wording, they have become symbolical or symtomatic of the often unconscious bias that the media and others have against Black people.

Because personal and institutional racism still exist in the USA, regardless of the true intent of the caption writers, I say more power to this discussion. I say this is with the hope that it may challenge people to be aware of the often subtle and hidden prejudices that some exist in the main stream media, and sometimes within themselves.

Can there be eradication of racism without acknowledgement that it still exist? I don't think so.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 08:29 PM

Be reasonable. McGarth, you are drawing one hell of a conclusion based on a random sample of 2 journalists/ agencies?

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 08:27 PM

McGrath. it's not impossible that you are right but I still think the odds are against you and I suspect the more unusual description in this instance was "finding". (Which as far as I can see is supported by the fact the "Finding" photo has been removed).

I'd bet most journalists would call that activity looting regardless of colour of skin. From the other side, there is no guarantee that the journalist who described the activity as finding not doing the same had the photo (s)he had been of a balck person.

I find it dangerous to draw such conculsions you do on such thin evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 08:18 PM

You're really thinking the photographers would have jumped down into the water from whatever place the photo was taken (a helicopter? a high builidng?) and carried out some kind of on the spot interview?

As I read it, this isn't about pointing a finger at some picture editor or agency.

The point is, just imagine you flashed those photos in front of people of your acquaintance, and asked them what they saw.

If the kind of racial preconceptions that skew the way we interpret the world were just confined to out and out racists, that would be a wonderful thing. Unfortunately they ain't.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 08:13 PM

Oh and lighter. This may sound bad but I am being honest here. Why I didn't respond to your post yesterday is that even though I am English, I do struggle at times with the American style:

Anybody read it ? Is it that ridiculous ? AP yanked both photos. Which means "cover up," right ? Damned if they do, damned if they don't Guy Who Thinks, Q, right on, tell it !

By that stage I wasn't sure whether you were telling Q (s)he was right or wrong and didn't feel like questioning to find out or debating on my best guess as to what you meant.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 07:59 PM

Lighter. The main point in your first post reads:

I suspect that the photographer asked the people where they got the stuff, and one said "Um, we found it outside the store" and the other, maybe more truthfully, said "Everybody was grabbing things so I just took what I needed."

I note you refer to the photographer in the singular and suggest he asked the two people. Given that one pic and caption was sourced by Yahoo via AFP and the other via AP, I do think you reasoning is unlikely.

t is possible of course that 2 photographers/writers may have done the same thing but it does seem to me that you are ignoring certain facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Lighter
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 07:50 PM

I gave a plausible explanation for both captions at the beginning of the thread, and then I repeated it a couple of days ago.

To no avail.

So from now on, I'm staying above the line. Some of these threads really are bull shit.

Have a nice day !

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 07:45 PM

But I think it is also reasonable to assume that a lot of white writers would have made the same assumption had the photo been of a white person.

And to repeat what I said before, the picture removed was the "finding" one (by AFP). It may not be the case but in the absence of further informations, one could reasonably assume from that removal that many people were not happy at seeing this activity described as "finding" (even though it was carried out by white people) was in itself controversial. One could also ask why the one described as "looting" still remains on Yahoos site.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 07:35 PM

I think it is fair to say that, presented with those two pictures without any caption, a lot of white people, who are in no way consciously racist, would be likely to make the same assumption that the caption writer for AP is reasonably suspected of making.

But I think it is also reasonable to assume that a lot of white writers would have made the same assumption had the photo been of a white person.

I remain bemused by this. Had it been the same organisation even producing the pictures, I might open up to a some possibility. Had it been the same writer, there certainly would be questions to ask...

As it stands though, the only way I can read it is that there are simply too many variables to reach any firm conclusion and there are plenty of (more likely IMO) reasons why this could have occured without bringing in the race card.

I think things as iffy as this actually do the race issues a disservice. And their remains a far bigger race issue, one that I don't believe several innocent possibilities exist for. Quite simply (and basing this now on more I've read):

How come there are such a high % of black Americans near or below the poverty line in NO? As far as I can make out, they comprise rather more than they do in the overall 67% average of the total population.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 07:07 PM

Press photographers don't generally have too much control over what caption is put under their pictures. In the case of pictures like this, in a situation like that, it seems extremely unlikely that any photographer or reporter would have been in a position to gather and pass on the kind of specific information ddw posits.

Far more likely it would have been a matter of people in news agency offices far away from New Orleans writing captions in a hurry on the basis of what they see in front of their eyes, and how they interpret it.

Wolfgang has explained the point he was making pretty straightforwardly. It's not a question of calculating distortion, carried out by people with some racist agenda. It's that people are unconsciously predisposed, by all kinds of factors, to make assumptions about what they see with their eyes, and stereotypes about colour can come into that.   This was an example of how it can work.

I think it is fair to say that, presented with those two pictures without any caption, a lot of white people, who are in no way consciously racist, would be likely to make the same assumption that the caption writer for AP is reasonably suspected of making.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: ddw
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 05:10 PM

I can't read any more of the sycophantic claptrap and drivel agreeing with Wolfgang on this, so maybe somebody else had pointed this out before....

Do you know that the photographers didn't watch HOW the items in question were acquired? Or are you just showing your knee-jerk need to think you're better than other people (i.e. the writers of the captions) by assuming they're slanting things in a way you don't like?

Seems to me you're saying a lot more about your own ignorance and prejudice toward   others than you are about the verity of the captions.

Truth is, I don't know if these items were found or looted and neither do you, so damning the media as "racist" for using words which may be accurate is just showing your lack of any real basis for your opinions.

cheers,

david

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 04:49 PM

Cason Announces Initial BIA Response to Aid Tribal Victims of Hurricane Katrina

I don't believe this group has been mentioned at all. They are the truly invisible in the region.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Wolfgang
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 04:09 PM

I now think I should have known better when I started this thread, but actually I didn't and no thread is the property of the first poster. So I can't really complain of what you have made of this. I can only be glad that some have understood.

If I had wanted to make a remark about the present disaster and the reaction to it I wouldn't have started an extra thread. M.Ted is far off the mark.

If I had wanted to comment about racism or not in the USA I wouldn't have started with an example from German TV language.

For me, it was about (hidden) prejudices possibly influencing the language one uses. That includes me, BTW. The pictures were just the most recent example I stumbled upon. Of course, that is close to nothing in comparison to what else has happened in NO and I'm the first to agree that whoever would give me a drink and would save me from drowning could call me any name he liked.

It was just two completely different themes for me and all the wholists who think one cannot discuss language separately from a disaster are just not at the same wavelength with me. I sometimes even start a music thread on the same day a disaaster happens.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 10:41 PM

Well, well, well......

First of all, this ain't mississippitom... It's the Bobert...

Now I ain't read this entire thread since I been holed up in a danged recordin' studio but if this ain't been said then it needs to be said....

Gonna piss off some folks but, hey...

New Orleans is 76 % black and over half of the black population lives uner the poverty level...

If Katrina had hit Appilacia in southern Wes Ginny you'd be seein' white folks doin' 'xactly what yer seein black folks doin' in New Orleans....

Yeah, the Bush administartion and his media bed buddies are tryin' to use any distaction to keep the simple fact that Bush hasn'r funded improvements to the levee's, hasn't funded first reponders and now wnat to put all their failures on the backs of black folks...

Hmmmmm, sound familiar???

If there was ever "Evidence A" in mot allowing drunk frat boys to run America this oughtta be it...

Bobert (not tom)

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: dianavan
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 09:48 PM

"The obsessive idiotic blaming of G. W. Bush for every aspect of this disaster, with barely a mention of the thousands of others from Congressmen, Governors, Mayors, Generals, on down to the lowliest confused Guardsman must have some Freudian explanation. Bush is not the only one who can be described as seeing things solely in black and white."

You're absolutely right. George Bush is not alone in all of this. In fact, I blame everyone who voted for him. Only a moron would vote for such a greedy, self centered, ego-maniac.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: GUEST,Lighter at work
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 08:15 PM

Hey, people ! I offered a different explanation of those captions at the very beginning of this thread ! Anybody read it ? Is it that ridiculous ?

AP yanked both photos. Which means "cover up," right ? Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

Guy Who Thinks, Q, right on, tell it !