BS: Black looters, white finders

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Sep 05 - 07:08 PM

Fear and religion have served kings well throughout history.

Serve religion and fear together and you have a chilling god fearing regieme.

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/bushfear.jpg



my cd cover project...
http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/bushcd.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Sep 05 - 06:39 PM

It's not just the Muslims who have to put up with having crazies with big bank balances and an appetite for power setting out to hi-jack their religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Sep 05 - 04:55 PM

THIS IS CUTE

The Christian Coalition Headquarters in South Carolina makes their black employees use a seperate entrance.

http://www.thestate.com/mld/state/news/local/12676171.htm


IT cost them $300,000

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: dianavan
Date: 23 Sep 05 - 11:50 PM

I think Canada may be the only nation that recognizes a mixed race because the Metis (French and Aboriginal) were well established before the English. Thats my best guess.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Sep 05 - 11:09 PM

I am quite aware of the implication of 'half-breed' and the definition of Metis and its origin (mixed; French, first used in Hudson Bay Company reports, ca. 1815).
The Metis Nation of Alberta, in their definition of "Historic Metis Nation," says it refers to "the Aboriginal people then known as Metis or Half-breeds who resided in the historic Metis Nation Homeland."
Is Canada the only country which has formally recognized people of mixed race and defined them as one of the "aboriginal peoples" (Constitution Act of 1982)?

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: dianavan
Date: 23 Sep 05 - 09:09 PM

I did, "read the simple page on semiotics"

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Sep 05 - 12:49 AM

Dianavan, I include Zora Neale Hurston and you think lists can't overlap? Do you even know who the others are, or are you going to make Zora do all of your work?

You personify the type of intellectualism that America has grown to disdain. You dismiss others in an attempt to aggrandize yourself. A graduate degree does not mean you are entitled to do that.


So, you think that if someone wants to carry on a creditable conversation and objects to the nonsense that gets layered in, that this is self-aggrandizement? That's your problem, not mine, because you are badly misreading the situation.

You don't have an argument at this point, you're not discussing, you're calling people names. You have a vocabulary that lets you do this, but you don't seem to understand what is being said, you didn't read the simple page on semiotics, so it is simply easier for you to say that I'm out of the loop because I've spent time reading and thinking and discussing this? Don't you see the problem with your approach? If you privilege one group over another, you've already built a fatal flaw into any argument you could make. If you will instead try to step back and look at the intersections of what people are saying and try to understand the conflicting meanings, then you'll get somewhere.

The original information Azizi posted isn't a problem here. It's the self-righteous defenders of the [Other] un[der]represented who are the problems.

The tricks with the punctuation are found throughout scholarly publications. It means the writer acknowledges that wordplay is important, that it is going on, and that whoever reads the paper needs to be aware that they're bringing their own biases and understandings to the topic. If you find scholarly approaches to these problems intimidating, that is your problem. Calling people names doesn't fix the problem, it just positions you in a rather unattractive place with apologists and wannabes.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: dianavan
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 11:57 PM

SRS - I won't discuss this with you any further because you are putting words in my mouth. At no time did I dismiss intellectual pursuits and goals.

When you suggest I read Zora Neale Hurston, it tells me you didn't read my post. She happens to be my favorite author. Don't expect everyone to have a deep knowlege of linguistics or even a French feminist perspective on language. We only know what we have experienced and if you forever have your head wrapped up in theory, you will never be able to hear people who tell you how it feels. Don't forget, theories are only good until another theorist proves them wrong. You personify the type of intellectualism that America has grown to disdain. You dismiss others in an attempt to aggrandize yourself. A graduate degree does not mean you are entitled to do that.

Just because someone has the funds to get themselves through graduate school, doesn't mean they have an intellectual edge over those who do not.

Q -
I wasn't speaking specifically about census forms. On census forms I list myself as aboriginal.

BTW -

Half-breed is a derogatory term used by Whitey. Its insulting.

So what do you think of the explosion of that Kinder-Morgan pipeline in Arizona. Do you think it can't happen in Canada?

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 11:07 PM

(Since I have been in Canada, I have changed ethnic origin in each census- my worthless protest. When I first was included in the census, American (U. S.) was not an allowable answer. I selected one contributor to my ancestry (I forget which one).

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 11:03 PM

SRS - I am not objecting to higher education. Far from it. I object to your intellectual elitism. Undergraduates may or may not have critical thinking skills. Your statement says more about you than it does about them.

My statement shows that I have experience with undergraduates, it has nothing to do with "intellectual elitism." It shows that I work in a university and I am very familiar with undergraduate critical thinking skills, or the lack of them. On a case by case basis, you are going to find a lot of variables in the skills of each student, that goes without saying. Those who "get it" are most likely the ones who will choose to go on to graduate school. Those who get in still have to get through some core courses that are intended to weed out the ones who don't have critical thinking skills. That vetting happens in graduate school because it's a different level of work entirely.

Personally, I find your dismissal of intellectual pursuits and goals as off-putting as the political climate in the U.S. in which intelligence seems to actually work against good candidates. Go figure. Someone smart enough to make things in government work right and build coalitions and they're passed over for a doofus like Dubya.

In American Indian literature there has been an ongoing discussion for many years regarding the use of English by native writers. If they write in their own language the story can be very short, because as Maria Chona said "we understand so much." But if they want to reach a larger audience and get their ideas across, and in the process perhaps set the dominant culture back on it's heels, they must use English. And it's a battle all the way. Gloria Bird and Joy Harjo put out a wonderful collection of short stories with the savvy title Reinventing the Enemy's Language. It's back to semiotics again. You gotta pay attention to semiotics. Go read some Ishamael Reed and you'll see what I'm talking about. Go read Henry Louis Gates. bell hooks. Zora Neale Hurston. They were masters of the language and the nuance you're so concerned about. Go read some Audre Lorde. And while you're at it, go look for Gillermo Gómez-Peña and Ana Castillo. Might as well get some other ethnic spin on English while you're at it. Whether or not any of these people wrote works that were read in colleges, they wrote books that were read by many people. Don't confuse the venue with the message.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 10:59 PM

Dianavan, your "American hybrid" is unacceptable on census forms of the U. S., UK AND Canada.
The UK and Canadian forms go heavily into religion, and race- Muslim, Hindu, Christian, etc. - I just checked, and was surprised. Of course you can fit into the 'other' or 'none' categories. Just don't commit a perjurable offence (He, he, he).

Canada Census figures are complex: Look at the "Ethnocultural Portrait of Canada, 2001 Census." The principal categories are:
Total visible minorities
Chinese
South Asian
Black
Filipino

Ethnic origins (a long section on the Canadian Census) range from Canadian (12 mil), English 6 million, French 5 million, Scottish 4 million down to 16000 Algerians and 15000 Bulgarians. Provincial figures include 340 Quebecois in the province of Alberta (I didn't check for separatists in British Columbia).
Then there are the half-breeds, the Metis, included among the 800,000 aboriginals, counted separately, along with First Nations, etc., etc.
Population by Religion
Catholic 13 million
Protestant 9 million
Christian Orthodox 0.5 million
Muslim 0.6 million
etc. and
4.9 million with no religious affiliation.

Just remember, it is an offence to make false statements on the Census form.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: dianavan
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 09:52 PM

Its very hard to prove feelings. They are highly subjective.

Whether its believable is also highly subjective.

SRS - I am not objecting to higher education. Far from it. I object to your intellectual elitism. Undergraduates may or may not have critical thinking skills. Your statement says more about you than it does about them.

BTW - My father taught me early on when completing forms that ask for your religion, the answer is; none of your God damned business. The correct answer for ethnic origin (in my case) is American hybrid. Once again, if you continue to allow intrusion, the initial intrusion becomes justification for more intrusive behaviour. Don't participate in that type of questioning.

Thanks Azizi for claiming I'm so bad. I'm really just naughty and full of spunk. Learned it from Zora Neale Hurston.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 08:16 PM

The distinguished actor Ossie Davis wrote an essay about 35 years called "The English Language is My Enemy." It's been reprinted in freshman anthologies. In it, Davis listed a lot of expressions carrying various degrees of negativity involving the word "black." "Blackmail" for example, or "the Black Death."

On that basis he concluded that English itself was loaded against African Americans.

The missing element is there's no proof, or even evidence, that   people of any color connect these terms with African Americans unless invited to. And there's no evidence, even if they did, that it would have any significant effect on their attitudes toward (or as) black people.

I used this essay for class discussion many times. I don't recall a single freshman questioning its conclusion on his or her own. Most seemed to take it as a revelation of an indisputable truth they never would have thought of themselves. The essay's argument made some uncomfortable, but they couldn't quite put their suspicions into words. The students were disproportionately white, BTW.

In any discussion it takes a little bit of learning and sophistication just to ask the basic questions, "What's the evidence ?" and "How believable is it ?"

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 07:39 PM

All these neat, even obsessive, classifications - and then people spoil the neatness by falling in love with somebody from another classifications.

I used to have a colleague who came fromm Ireland, and had met her husband when she was working in Gibraltar, where he'd been born, from a Portuguese Indian (Goan) family. Their children were entitled to passports of at least four countries. I remember her trying to work out how the family were supposed to fill in the ethnic origin question on the national census form.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 06:47 PM

BTW - I am fully acquainted with the rigours of academia but life experience has taught me that the ivory tower has little to do with cultural literacy and that, in fact, most graduate students fall flat on their face when expressing their ethno centric viewpoint to a multi-cultural audience.

I expected some sort of dismissive response. I wasn't disappointed in that, but I think you're wrong in this also. I'd say that you're grossly over-generalizing. Most people with advanced degrees manage to escape the gravity field of that Ivory Tower and do good work and understand the real world around them. And there are talented professors in many fine institutions who turn out great thinkers.

Perhaps you're confusing those people with a conspicuous group that never seems to break free of the university and who fall under the heading of "those who can, do, those who can't, teach." I have run into some of them over the years. They are very good at navel-gazing in closed circuit environments of school and scholarly conferences. Theory for theory's sake. They publish papers on topics that don't lead anywhere, and always come back to the same research again and again. They tend to fizzle out and drift into other jobs. Don't dismiss education or scholarship because some people don't get it and can't figure out how to apply what they've learned.

People who read the journals, take the good ideas, and move out into the world to work and teach and think make a difference. To suggest that one group, by virtue of their education or skin color, lacks understanding while another group, because of their education or skin color, possess total understanding is a gross simplification of how the world works. We all simply understand different things, and ours is a world in which little has been done to bridge that gap. Until you see evidence in an individual of a stubborn unwillingness to think or consider viewing the world from a position other than the center in which they've placed themselves, no one should be dismissed out of hand.

And before you wade into another aspect of this, I will note that the mudcatters I am most likely to tangle with are the ones who wade into perfectly good discussions and start flashing around faulty sources, ill-considered topics, fuzzy logic, and/or try to blast their opponents out of the argument by name calling, innuendo, and just plain nastiness to distract from their lack of knowledge or material to continue the discussion. Some people just drop out when they reach that point, others keep on slugging.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 02:09 PM

Jon, in the US 'black board' went from black to green before it went to white.

Azizi, I have no doubt that you are more sensitized to coded language than I am but there are some phrases and images that I consider positive beyond dispute:

Black hair= raven's wing
Black velvety sky
Black cat = wise, knowing

And lots more, actually.


"Historically, widows and widowers were expected to wear black for a year after the death of their spouses." Azizi post

What about white? In some countries and cultures white is the color of mourning.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 01:09 PM

Azizi, I do not accept material from Wackipedia, which lacks scholarship. "User-contributed," without proper documentation and attribution, only leads to confusion and misunderstanding since it usually reflects the personal opinion of the contributor.

In U. S. census, Portuguese and Brasilians are counted (mostly?) as 'Other' in compilations, but are enumerated separately on the original census form.
Spaniards, a small minority, are counted separately on the original census form. In compilations, they often are grouped as 'other.'
When the separate entries are compiled in statistical treatment, these are the categories used (2004, but last official census 2000):

1. White resident population, by State and Hispanic origin.
2. Black or African-American resident population, by State and Hispanic origin.
3. American Indian or Alaskan native population, by state and Hispanic origin.
4. Asian resident population, by state and Hispanic origin.
5. Resident population, by state and Hispanic origin.
(Many forms also have the category for Hawaiian native population, by state and Hispanic origin.
Categories are from the National Vital Statistics System, National Center for Health Statistics (U. S. Federal Government).

See the Webster's Collegiate Dictionary (1996 Tenth Ed,) definition of "Hispanic" for American usage.
Hispanic- "of, relating to, or being a person of Latin American descent living in the U. S.; esp.: one of Cuban, Mexican or Puerto Rican origin." Note that 'Spaniard' is not mentioned. "Latino" in the Dictionary has the same meaning, but also may be applied to any "native inhabitant of Latin America."
Race is not a part of the definition of either.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: John Hardly
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 08:31 AM

Incidentally, there was a failed piece of legislation (introduced for voting on) in California -- the ultimate "color blind" legislation -- that would make it illegal to ask for race, ethnicity, or religion on any kind of application used by the State of California.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 08:29 AM

When I was last in any form of education, the tutors used 2 boards. One was coloured black (and historically called a blackboard until PC came in) and was described in class as a chalkboard. The other was white and oddly enough, rather than being called a pen board (after all this one used pens and the other used chalk) was called a white board.

I've just realised that indicates unfair discrimination against black. I mean you can call a useful teaching device that is coloured white as white but you can't call a useful teaching device that is coloured black, black.

My point is, if you want to invent cases to prove discrimination, you can do. I find it makes a mockery of genuine cases though.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: John Hardly
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 08:25 AM

"I've never understood this "Hispanic" category Americans go in for. Is it linguistic or "racial"? Who is it supposed to include and exclude? Spaniards? Brazilians? Filipinos?"

You'd have to understand that, unlike other countries, In the US there is a political and economic advantage to be had by having a minority designation. Therefore, if you can make yourself part of a minority, you can get your piece of the minority pie.

I am officially designated a Potter-American. Sure, we're a minority now...

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Azizi
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 08:22 AM

Corrections "For the sake of clarity..."

also "But Novas writes that "While Brazilian Americans are of Portuguese, not Spanish ancestry, and therefore do not qualify as Latinos, many consider themselves part of a larger pan-Latin American diaspora and have forged close ties with the Latino community".

And there may be more corrections-"my bad"

["my bad"-1970s or so African American hip-hop"-ese meaning "I'm sorry. Please accept my apology"].


And btw, Dianavan, "Go'n with your bad self!" ["bad" here meaning very good].

;o)

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Azizi
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 08:13 AM

In his book "Everything You Need To Know About Latino History'
{New York, Penquin Group, 2003 edition, pages 2-4}, Himilce Novas
discusses the group names "Latino" and "Hispanic".

Here are excerpts from that book:

"Hispanic" is derived from Espana, the country thaled the conquest..of the new world. But Hispanics are more than just decendants of the New World Spanish conquistadors and settlers. ..the Spanish encountered many different native peoples, known generally as Amerindians, in the Americas, and to a large extent, they intermarried, and interbred with those they conquered. Add to that all the peoples whom the Spanish eventually brought from Africa to the Americas as slaves {and with whom they also mixed} and you get the whole enchilada known as Spanish speaking Latin America...

Dor the sake of clarity, Spanish Latin America is comprised of Cuba, Puerto Rico {which is a U.S. Commonwealth and not a soverigh nation}, the Dominican Republic, Mexico, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, Guatemala, El Salvador, Honduras, Panama, Veesuela, Columbia, Ecuador, Peru, Bolivia, Chile, Argentina, and Uraguay, and Paraguay. All citizens and residents of the United States who originate from these nations or from the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, or whose ancestors did, are known as Hispanics, The U.S. Census also includes Spanish Americans, those whose forbears came directly from Spain, amon Hispanics, but many scholars limit the definition to those of Spanish Latin American descent...

In Spanish -speaking Latin American, people do not refer to themselves as Hispanic...National identity takes precedence...
Many Americans with roots in Spanish Latin Ameica consider "Hispanic" merely a bureaucratic government census term and prefer the pan-ethnic term "Latino" or "Latina" {depending on gender}. However, "Latino" has not been popular across the board".

-snip-

I should note that Novas appears to prefer the term "Latino" as he uses it as the group referent for this diverse population throughout his book.

Incidently, Novas also writes that Brazilians are not Hispanic since Brazil is a South American country that was conquered by the Portuguese and not the Spanish. But Novas writes that "While Brizilian Americans are of Portugues, not Spanish ancestry, and therefore do not qualify as Latinos, many consider themselves part of a larger pan-Latin American diaspora and have forged close ties with the Latino community" {p.4, op.cit}.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Azizi
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 07:47 AM

With regard to the Hispanic {Latino/Latina} category, yes Q, I am aware that this is an ethnic and not a racial category.

See this excerpt for one online opinion regarding the terms "Hispanic" & "Latino":

Though often used interchangeably in American English, Hispanic and Latino are not identical terms, and in certain contexts the choice between them can be significant. Hispanic, from the Latin word for "Spain," has the broader reference, potentially encompassing all Spanish-speaking peoples in both hemispheres and emphasizing the common denominator of language among communities that sometimes have little else in common. Latino—which in Spanish means "Latin" but which as an English word is probably a shortening of the Spanish word latinoamericano—refers more exclusively to persons or communities of Latin American origin. Of the two, only Hispanic can be used in referring to Spain and its history and culture; a native of Spain residing in the United States is a Hispanic, not a Latino, and one cannot substitute Latino in the phrase the Hispanic influence on native Mexican cultures without garbling the meaning. In practice, however, this distinction is of little significance when referring to residents of the United States, most of whom are of Latin American origin and can theoretically be called by either word.•A more important distinction concerns the sociopolitical rift that has opened between Latino and Hispanic in American usage. For a certain segment of the Spanish-speaking population, Latino is a term of ethnic pride and Hispanic a label that borders on the offensive. According to this view, Hispanic lacks the authenticity and cultural resonance of Latino, with its Spanish sound and its ability to show the feminine form Latina when used of women. Furthermore, Hispanic—the term used by the U.S. Census Bureau and other government agencies—is said to bear the stamp of an Anglo establishment far removed from the concerns of the Spanish-speaking community. While these views are strongly held by some, they are by no means universal, and the division in usage seems as related to geography as it is to politics, with Latino widely preferred in California and Hispanic the more usual term in Florida and Texas. Even in these regions, however, usage is often mixed, and it is not uncommon to find both terms used by the same writer or speaker. See Usage Notes at "Chicano".

For more click Meaning of "Hispanic"

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Azizi
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 07:38 AM

"Brown is the new black" sounds good but actually, when it comes to African American skin complexions, since at least the mid 17th century we have been black [deep to somewhat}, brown {in all its shades including light to dark reddish brown}, "light bright, and damn near white" {to quote a widely known Black saying}, and white itself.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 06:57 AM

200.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 06:57 AM

Brown is the new black.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 06:08 AM

I've never understood this "Hispanic" category Americans go in for. Is it linguistic or "racial"? Who is it supposed to include and exclude? Spaniards? Brazilians? Filipinos?

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 01:43 AM

Azizi, Hispanic on the U. S. Census does not indicate race, which may be White, Black, American Indian or Polkadot. This confuses a lot of people. They add white, etc., and then add Hispanic and arrive at a figure greater than the total.

Of course these figures are not the whole banana......

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: dianavan
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 01:43 AM

SRS - "It's too over-simplified to suggest that someone's race automatically makes them an expert in all aspects of things affecting that race. That's not really what you're suggesting, is it?"

Yes and no - but I do think that the intent of a "black" phrase when perceived by a "Black" person can be understood on an emotional level much faster than a white person can decode it. I also believe that African Americans have understood signifiers and embedded those signifiers in their language long before signifiers were studied by graduate students.

Of course language changes but regardless of those changes, the impact of the language remains. Black is black, regardless of how language evolves.

On the subject of critical thinking skills in America we agree.

BTW - I am fully acquainted with the rigours of academia but life experience has taught me that the ivory tower has little to do with cultural literacy and that, in fact, most graduate students fall flat on their face when expressing their ethno centric viewpoint to a multi-cultural audience.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 01:11 AM

If you don't agree with the list of "black expressions" or their origins, perhaps you should state which expressions you disagree with.


Dianavan, I'm frankly not interested in adding more fuel to this fire. The lists presented so far are compiled with no eye to anyone actually researching them and I find it pointless to argue about the contents of such lists.

SRS said, "Undergrads usually don't have the critical thinking skills established yet to construct the complex arguments needed for these conferences.."

Huh???


I think instead of my not knowing what I'm talking about, you aren't acquainted with the rigours of academia and what has to go into putting together a paper for a scholarly conference. Undergrads rarely have the stamina for such work, since they are rarely required to write papers with the depth (sophistication of topic and number of sources) and length (minimum 20 pages) required. The young woman in question had been egged on, perhaps perversely, by someone at her university. Someone should have vetted her paper first, but it went in unchallenged as part of a panel, or it would never have been accepted. This woman had not developed the self-knowledged to realize that she had a lot to learn. She was in over her head, drawing generalizations based on her ability to pull together a list, not to understand the contents.

Critical thinking skills may be in the process of developing in an individual at any age, regardless of their level of schooling.

They hopefully evolve at any age, but in America today I see a distressingly small attempt at teaching school children these skills. In undergraduate work, unless students are in very competitive programs or Honors programs, few are called upon to work that hard. She wasn't one of the few. And when I look at the outcome of the last election, I know that critical thinking skills were never taught to millions of Americans.

Personally, I think Azizi probably has a better take on this than you. As has been mentioned previously, it is how the expression is perceived (rather than the origin) that actually matters.

Sorry, you're wrong. We have different views of the topic, which is allowed in any logical debate. It's too over-simplified to suggest that someone's race automatically makes them an expert in all aspects of things affecting that race. That's not really what you're suggesting, is it? Experience and thoughtful consideration and attention to detail all come into play.

Of course origin matters. It matters as much as the reception. It's understanding that different groups bring different sets of meanings to the same words that goes into the Semiotics which are at the heart of this argument.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Azizi
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 08:27 PM

That's a good story, John.

I'm not familiar at all with color consciousness in the nation of South Africa. I'm wondering if those men in your friend's story wrote those colors down just to 'mess with' the test.

I recall reading as a young adult that different members of
[what African Americans would call] Black families could be designated differently depending on the individuals' skin color. For instance, a light skinned child in a Black family might be designated as a Coloured [and-at one time anyway]receive a better education and more priviledges because of that designation.

I also remember reading that there was a pencil test that was done on hair that would determine whether a person from the Union of South Africa was Coloured or Black. It's been quite a while since I read this ,but it was something like if the hair was so tightly curly that a pencil could be put in the hair, then the individual was designated "Black". But if the hair was less curly or straight and the pencil couldn't remain in the hair, then the person was designated "Coloured".

Does anyone know if this 'pencil test' was or is true?

And haven't we moved far afield from the original purpose of this thread? Well, maybe not...

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: dianavan
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 08:17 PM

SRS said, "Undergrads usually don't have the critical thinking skills established yet to construct the complex arguments needed for these conferences."

Huh???

Critical thinking skills may be in the process of developing in an individual at any age, regardless of their level of schooling.

If you don't agree with the list of "black expressions" or their origins, perhaps you should state which expressions you disagree with.

Personally, I think Azizi probably has a better take on this than you. As has been mentioned previously, it is how the expression is perceived (rather than the origin) that actually matters.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: John Hardly
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 08:10 PM

My friend (and banjo player in my trio) was doing his doctoral research in Africa. While living there he applied for a driver's license.

He came to the part of the application that referred to "color". Uncertain, he looked to his left and right at two dark-skinned men who stood there filling out similar forms and noticed that one had put down "yellow" while the other had marked "red".

Further puzzled, being American, and therefore assuming that by "color" they were referring to "race", but seeing two blacks fill in red and yellow instead, he went to the desk and asked the clerk what he was supposed to put in this blank.

The clerk looked at him for a second or two and then called over his supervisor. The supervisor asked my friend to show him the undersides of his arms and, when my friend did, said, "white, very".

Seems that what was necessary for the purposes of identification was description, not affiliation.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Azizi
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 07:48 PM

"People of color" is a referent that is used quite a bit {I think} more often by Afro-centric African Americans than those who are not as interested in learning about traditional African cultures
{which is how I'm using the term "Afro-centric"}.

But"people of color" is a wider term than "Colored people" as it includes all people other than White people.

And "of course", "Colored people" is not the same as the South African racial group "Coloured People" {though most African Americans/Black Americans/Colored people are racially mixed as are the South African Coloured People.

Complicated? You betcha.

Can we all get along?

I hope so.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Azizi
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 07:30 PM

John Hardly,

We {African Americans} have experimented with numerous group names among them being "African", "Negro", "Colored"; "Colored People", "Afro-American", "Black", and "African American" [with or without a hypen}. Because the referent "African American" refers to a geograhical location just as most other hyphenated ethnic names {such as "Italian-American" and "Irish American"}, since at least the late 1970s that has been the preferred formal group name for Black Americans. However, "Black" {I prefer the capitol letter spelling} is also acceptable, particularly as an informal referent. Note that the politically correct usage is "Black people", and not "the Blacks".

****

Here's an interesting article on group referents:

Name Games: Attempting to Define "African-American"

And here's an excerpt from that article:

Name Games
The folly in the attempts to define "African-American."
By Richard Thompson Ford
Posted Thursday, Sept. 16, 2004, at 3:21 AM PT


Among the many indignities racial minorities must endure are the perennial debates over the meaning of racial identity. Are the people formerly known as "Negroes" or "colored people" to be called people of color, black, Afro-American, or African-American? Are people of Mexican and Central-American ancestry Hispanic, Latino, Chicano, or Latin-American? Is it still OK to call people "Oriental," or is that a term best limited to rugs and geographic locations? More urgent than the nomenclature itself are the questions about who "counts" as a member of these groups, with their ever-increasing string of aliases.

A recent version of this controversy involves immigrants from Africa or the Caribbean and whether they are "African-Americans." Harvard professors have publicly worried that over half of Harvard's "black" students did not descend from American slaves but are, rather, immigrants or the children of immigrants from Africa or the Caribbean. Though it started off on the right track, this debate predictably became as much about the "identity" of these immigrants as the direction of Harvard's admissions policies.

Meanwhile Republican Alan Keyes complained that the Democratic Party's rising star, Barack Obama—the son of a Kenyan immigrant—"[wrongly] claims an African-American heritage." In reaction to which UC-Berkeley linguist John McWhorter quite reasonably pointed out that immigrants from, well, Africa, who are now residents of the United States of America, have a stronger claim to the term "African-American" than most American blacks, whose connection to Africa is generations old. Others worried that defining "African-American" as rooted in geographic origin seems to suggest that Teresa Heinz Kerry, born in Mozambique, and Charlize Theron, born in South Africa, are "African-American."

The nation anxiously awaits the answers to these urgent social questions.

It shouldn't. Arguments about the correct definition of racial identity are this century's version of medieval scholastic theologians' debates about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. They seem to be of vital moral and spiritual importance, involving many contested terms, conceptual puzzles, and facts not in evidence. They're a great way for smart people to pass the time until the bartender pours the next round. But there's no way to resolve these questions or even to agree on common grounds for debating them.... "

****

IMO, the entire article is worth the read for those interested in this subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 07:05 PM

It'd depend - if he appeared to be of Indian origin he'd likely be described as "Asian" or "Indian", irrespective what shade his skin was.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: John Hardly
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 05:50 PM

I was but a young teen when the "colored" became "black". Maybe you all can clear something up for me...

Whose idea was it to make "Black" the respectful term by which people of color would be referred? Was it the black leaders of the day, or was it the whites?

...and how are African-Americans referred to in the UK? I mean, if a man of color was found dead, how would he be described?

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 05:38 PM

I wonder where 'Bunnahabhain' lives. Azizi knows whereof she speaks, to use the cliché, when she is speaking of the word with regard to the intepretation held by African-Americans. "I live what I talk" - says it succinctly.

I enjoy tracing word origins, a hobby with me, but I hope that sometimes, at least, I think of the effect a word has on people rather than the etymology, usage in literature, etc. The list by B... is interesting, but is valueless with respect to conditioned responses.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 05:31 PM

I don't know about the States, but elsewhere I'd think the negative connotations of "black" come from light and darkness and so forth, and that can carry over to underpin prejudice about shades of skin, rather than the other way round with negative attitudes towards "black" arising from prejudice against black people.

And the same goes for "red", starting with blood and arising out of that there being an impact on how people can think about red-hair or "red" skin. (Though the only people around who in fact do have genuinely red skins are people of Northern European ancestry who've been out in the sun.)
.................................
The kinds of differences in assumptions Azizi mentioned that Americans appear to make along "racial" lines are disturbing, They echo the difference in political judgements, as demonstrated in the way that the Republicans have vanishingly little support among black Americans, and no doubt most of even that will have vanished in the wake of New Orleans. That kind of breakdown is profoundly worrying in any society.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 05:29 PM

I don't know about the Sttes, but elsewhere I'd think the negative connotations of "black" come from light and darkness and so forth, and that can carry over to ybnderpin prejuduce about shades of skin, rather than the other way round with negative attitudes towards "black" arising from prejudice against black people.

And the same goes for "red", starting with blood and arising out of that there being an impact on how people can think about red-hair or "red" skin. (Though the only people around who in fact do have genuinely red skins are people of Northern European ancestry who've been out in the sun.)
.................................
The kinds of differences in assumptions Azizi mentioned that Americans appear to make along "racial" lines are disturbing, They echo the difference in political judgements, as demonstrated in the way that the Republicans have vanishingly little support among black Americans, and no doubt most of even that will have vanished in the wake of New Orleans. That kind of breakdown is profoundly worrying in any society.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: wysiwyg
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 04:48 PM

"Wooly" thinking is thinking with a head packed full of what we USers call cotton (as in cotton balls,) and which is called, elsewhere in the world, "cotton wool" because the cotton is spun like freshly cleaned sheeps' wool which is spun and carded into roving to be spun into thread or yarn. It's got NOTHING to do with wooly hair on PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!!

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 01:51 PM

So pardon me if I don't have the time or patience or inclination to talk abstractly about the cultural meaning of "black".

But you do have the time to find articles, and do a long cut and paste, of only one side of it.

I'm always dissapointed when people with a valid point carry it too far. The point gets lost in the 'inflation'.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Azizi
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 01:26 PM

Bunnahabhain,

FYI, the list I excerpted in my 18 Sep 05 - 06:03 PM post to this thread was not composed by me. It is from Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Note this sentence from that article "In the Western world, black is most often used with a negative connotation"...

-snip-

"most often" does not mean always. If you read my post you will not that I did write "However, that article does list some positive meanings of the color "black".

-snip-

I then commented that it is "Too bad most Black children aren't familiar with those positive meanings."

-snip-

I'm sure that the article could have cited examples when the colors black and white are used in non-racial ways. However, part of my life work is to help raise the self-esteem and group esteem of children who still think 'blackie' is one of the worst insults that they could possibly receive. I used to feel that way too.

So pardon me if I don't have the time or patience or inclination to talk abstractly about the cultural meaning of "black".

I live what I talk.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Azizi
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 01:08 PM

With regard to the cultural meanings of the word "black" in the United States, I stand by my position that this word is loaded with more negative connotations than positive. I also still very much believe that the positive cultural connotations for the color white and the negative connotations for the "color" black can have profound pychological effects for Black people and for White people.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 01:04 PM

The pictures which started this controversy have been removed from yahoo at the request of the copyright holder. http://news.yahoo.com/page/photostatement.

(The only meaning for bogard that I have ever known is to slobber all over a roach.)

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Wolfgang
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 12:23 PM

Thanks for the expressions from English, McGrath. All but one new to me.

It is possible to find bad meanings associated with 'white' (whitewash, white death) and good ones associated with 'black' (most examples I have in mind come from German: our conservatives for instance proudly call themselves 'blacks'; 'black gold' could be an English example), but on the balance of it Azizi is right.

The words black and white are used differently in different sciences. What Bobert from the point of view of an art major has said about the black/white difference is quite likely correct in that context but would be the wrong response in psychology of perception. And that the sun is a 'black' body would not count as a correct statement outside of physics.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 11:24 AM

Anyone trying to present this list of blackness as a meaningful argument would be laughed off the stage in a serious debate. It is a commingling of religious, cultural, media, and idiomatic expressions that no one could ever take seriously. This is not to say that all of those selections are wrong, but it's a mishmash of terms and origins and many of them have acquired new meaning over time.

I sat at a conference a few years back in which an ill-advised undergraduate presented a passionate litany of all of the cultural slurs against American Indians. (Undergrads usually don't have the critical thinking skills established yet to construct the complex arguments needed for these conferences.) She was the voice in the wilderness defending these poor childlike creatures, and she assembled such a list as appears here in this thread. When one of the senior members of the group, president of the organization and noted American Indian lit scholar, in fact suggested that she dig deeper, that terms like "red handed" were not slurs that emanated from anti-Indian bigotry, miss-know-it-all responded "you're entitled to your opinion." The moderator had her off the stage in 10 seconds flat. The point was, she meant well but didn't have a clue as to the origins of all of the terms she accumulated or how to apply her argument.

One has to research a list like that if one wants that argument to amount to anything. Here is a Google search on sites that offer etymological information if anyone wants to start that search now.

As to the earlier term "gyp," that one is a cultural slur aimed at Gypsies. While much improved, they still have a reputation for sly acts and deception, as you will find in earlier Mudcat discussions like this one on Traveller Discrimination in the USA. It is one of several you'll find if you search on "Traveller." While one doesn't often hear the term "Jew" often referred to when implying shrewd bargaining, many don't seem to recognize the significance of "gyp."

(BTW: red-handed, according to one etymological site, suggests "1819, earlier red-hand (1432), originally in Scottish legal writing, from red (1) + hand, presumably from the image of a murderer caught in the act, with blood on the hands." link Another one suggests "Caught Red Handed: In medieval times, animal rustlers who killed someone else's livestock were sometimes clumsy enough not to clean the blood off their fingers. Hence, they were caught "red handed". link)

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Azizi
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 10:35 AM

Here's a link to a dailykos diary & comments on the perception of race in the United States:

Perceptions are Reality [by Delaware Dem Tue Sep 20th, 2005]

And here are some excerpts from that diary:

"According to the NBC/Journal poll conducted from Sept. 9-12, only 37 percent agree with the statement that the Bush administration would have acted with greater urgency had the affected areas been mostly white suburban communities. But there is a huge discrepancy by race here: Seventy percent of African Americans agree with the statement, while 67 percent of whites disagree.

Whether the Administration really would've responded quicker to white folks trapped in their attics and on their roofs for three days is irrelevant, (though you can count me in the 30% of whiteys who think the 82nd Airborne would have been deployed to evacuate Tallahassee and all the rich white Republican folks there if the situations were reversed) it is the perception that matters here. And that perception, like a bad first kiss on a bad first date, can never been reconciled. Seven out of ten black folks surveyed think Bush partied down with a country music singer and ate birthday cake while their brothers and sisters drowned. Oh wait, he did. Yes, sometimes perception can be based on reality....

Yes, class has something to do with Katrina, but race and class are inextricably linked in America, as even President Bush now admits. It sucks to be poor, regardless of race, but being black in this country adds even more hurdles for someone who is also poor. As Chris Rock opined, "It's haaaard to be black in America. Ain't no white man in this room wants to trade places with me... and I'm rich!"...

Rather than argue about whether the racism exists and at what level, understand that the perception is the reality. When 70% of black folks agree with Kanye West when he said "George Bush doesn't care about black people" and 67% of white people can't figure out why he said it, then we have us a serious problem.

At the same time, we cannot force racial tolerance and undestanding. I believe that most people, black and white, are not consciously racist. But we've been conditioned by living in a racist culture, and we often don't realize the subtle racism we exhibit. I believe that this kind of subconscious racism will die off with the older generations...

But then again, racism is learned. If you are an overt racist, chances are your child will be too...   

So how do we as a society bridge this racial gap in perception?"

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 19 Sep 05 - 06:47 AM

Come on Azizi, that's a bit one sided. You've pulled out alot of uses of the word 'black', and assumed the worst in all cases.

How about NON RACIAL meanings?

A lack of light, ie darkness or blackness has long invoked fear and uncertainly, as you can't see what's out there.

Also you state the Romans used black as a negative colour. Given the huge influence classical civilistaion had on the West, you really do need some specfic reason to suspect Black being used negativly has some racial connection.

I've pulled out alot of the ones that I know or suspect roots for other than the two above.

Bunnahabhain

A "black day", in these cultures, would refer to a sad or tragic day. The Romans already marked fasti days with white stones and nefasti days with black.

e.g. the Black September in Jordan refers to a month in which thousands were killed.

Black Monday, stock crash of October 19, 1987

Black Tuesday is the day of the stock market crash in 1929 which is the start of the Great Depression.

Black Wednesday caused Britain to pull out of the ERM.

Black Thursday, date preceding the stock crash of October 29, 1929, forecasting the stock market crash and the Great Depression

Black Friday, various tragic events.

many poems and songs use the word black negatively (e.g. Paint it black (Rolling Stones), Baby's in black (Beatles), Black eyed dog (Nick Drake).

In these cultures, the color black is often used in painting, film, and literature to evoke a sense of the fear or to symbolize death. It has also been adopted a symbolic color of the Halloween festival.


In English heraldry, black means darkness, doubt, ignorance, and uncertainty. (The American Girls Handy Book, p. 370)
Black meaning darkness. And this is racism?

Black is often a color of mourning. Historically, widows and widowers were expected to wear black for a year after the death of their spouses.

Black comedy is a form of comedy dealing with morbid and serious topics.

Black magic is an evil form of magic, often connected with death.

A blacklist is a list of undesirable persons or entities.

Evil witches are sterotypically dressed in black and good fairies in white. Melodrama villains are dressed in black and heroines in white dresses. In many Hollywood Westerns, bad cowboys wear black hats while the good ones wear white.
Exacly as you say, stereotypes.

In computer security, blackhat is an attacker with evil intentions.
see above for origins

Funeral dress is black, wedding gowns are white.
That's the white for viginity. Male wedding outfits are mainly black. Or does that imply the husband-to-be should go into mourning for something?

The black-market is illegal.
It happems out of sight of the authorities and general population, ie in the dark, or black.

Blackmail is illegal and is perceived as immoral.
As for black market. And surely you're not saying blackmail is a moral or desirable thing?
The black sheep of the family is the ne'er-do-well.
Probably from the fact that most sheep are white, so the black sheep is the odd one out, which is what you want the troublemaker in the family to be.

The infamous "black hole of Calcutta."
It was very dark, and a hole. Hence black hole.

To blackball them is to block them from being admitted.

Black thoughts are dark ones.

A black mood is a bad one (e.g. Winston Churchill's depression, which he called "my black dog").

A black cat usually means bad luck.
Or good luck. It's powerful, that's all.

If you sink the black eight-ball in billiards, you lose. (The ball with which you sink all others is the white cue ball.)
In Pool, you must sink the black ball to win, and in Snooker, the black is the most valuable ball. Or is sinking the black ball also a negative comment? Best not have a black ball at all to avoid this problem. Now you're discriminating against black....

A black mark against you is a bad thing.

A dark night is "black as Hell".
There are plenty of biblical refernces to Hell as a 'pit of darkness' and such like. So a dark night is as dark as the pit of darkness. Hmmm.

A black-hearted person is mean and unloving.

Black propaganda is the use of known falsehoods, partial truths, or masquerades in propaganda to confuse an opponent.

****

As to the example " Black thoughts are dark ones. ", the author of this article may not have considered that he/she used "dark" as a negative.

However, that article does list some positive meanings of the color "black". Too bad most Black children aren't familiar with those positive meanings.

In 2005 you can still hear African American children hurl what they consider an insult to another African American by calling him or her "blackie".

All of this to saym that we've still got alot of work to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Sep 05 - 12:06 AM

Curious about black applied to skin color, entries in the OED indicate its use in this way as far back as 1225. The earliest reference cited to 'white man" is 1672.

Bobert correct since optically, black is really the total absence of color, but that ain't the way people other than scientists and occasionally artists have defined it. It has been called a color for practical purposes at least since Beowulf (870 approx.).

And black is the color of my true love's hair.

I remember that years ago, people used to call someone who is correct in their pronouncements or definitions, but the definitions are wrong according to common or folk wisdom and usage, an edjicated idjit. (I was called one many times before I learned not to argue commonly held beliefs).