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BS: Genocide in New Orleans

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The Fooles Troupe 05 Sep 05 - 03:28 AM
SharonA 04 Sep 05 - 09:34 PM
Bill Hahn//\\ 04 Sep 05 - 07:53 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 04 Sep 05 - 04:46 PM
SharonA 04 Sep 05 - 04:03 PM
CarolC 04 Sep 05 - 03:09 PM
Stilly River Sage 04 Sep 05 - 11:54 AM
Le Scaramouche 04 Sep 05 - 11:35 AM
GUEST,Carping Cybersnipe 04 Sep 05 - 11:16 AM
Peace 04 Sep 05 - 01:53 AM
Pauline L 04 Sep 05 - 01:50 AM
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Bill Hahn//\\ 03 Sep 05 - 07:35 PM
McGrath of Harlow 03 Sep 05 - 07:20 PM
Scoville 03 Sep 05 - 06:22 PM
Stilly River Sage 03 Sep 05 - 12:16 PM
Donuel 03 Sep 05 - 12:08 PM
SINSULL 03 Sep 05 - 11:49 AM
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The Fooles Troupe 03 Sep 05 - 07:53 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 03:28 AM

i just heard on the news that a ship capable of making 100,000 gallons of fresh water a day was in the Gulf, but apart from its helicopters, it was not used.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: SharonA
Date: 04 Sep 05 - 09:34 PM

Yes, indeed... for Terry Schiavo. That one hits close to home: I live near the town where she attended high school. The Schiavo story has been in the local news here for years and years, and I'm well aware of his middle-of-the-night maneuvering. Yup, yup, yup, he loves to play the "right to life" card when it comes to the unborn and those in a permanent vegetative state, but for those anywhere in between (babies starving from post-flood lack of formula, young adults sent off to fight his war, people going off to Canada to get affordable medications), genocide appears to be an option...


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 04 Sep 05 - 07:53 PM

Sharon A: You make valid points. When I spoke of the WW2 era I was (unconciously) seperating it from the other wrongs---merely thinking of how we all worked together---B & W.   Was our society wrong in its mores---surely.

Another reason why this may be more "classist" than "racist". Perhaps a better description would be to describe it in Ws own words via a paraphrase----intelligent design.   Priorities of "pork" for those who matter to the fund-raising and political ends. Bridges to nowhere, hwy projects, national security dollars to empty areas, etc;

Best to read today's NY Times and Frank Rich---brilliant piece. Even their conservative op -ed writer David Brooks is taking the administration to task.    Frank Rich made one point--among many that jumped out at me---9/11--where to go for W/ N O disaster--stop in Sand Diego first for some political maneuvering---BUT Terry Schiavo--one person in the headlines---get the hell back to DC and make publicity hay.   My goodnes---a veritable FDR, Jefferson, Washington, Lincoln===probably more like one who plays with Lincoln Logs.

Bill Hahn


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 04 Sep 05 - 04:46 PM

SRS, where would be a good place to store your food and water if your home and street was about to be destroyed? How are people supposed to evacuate, when they haven't got cars, can't afford public transport, and in any case there's no public transport to be had at any price?

The BBC carried an itneresting quote today from a guy called Musib Na'imi, writing for an Iranian publication, Al-Vefagh:

About 10,000 US National Guard troops were deployed [in New Orleans] and were granted the authority to fire at and kill whom they wanted, upon the pretext of restoring order. This decision is an indication of the US administration's militarist mentality, which regards killing as the only way to control even its own citizens.

And this from Ambrose Murunga in Kenya's Daily Nation:

My first reaction when television images of the survivors of Hurricane Katrina in New Orleans came through the channels was that the producers must be showing the wrong clip. The images, and even the disproportionately high number of visibly impoverished blacks among the refugees, could easily have been a re-enactment of a scene from the pigeonholed African continent.

Interesting to see people being searched for weapons on their way into the refuges. The NRA must be seething. We'll know that normality has been restored when people have been given back their so-called right to bear arms, and they are again able to intimidate rescue services. (Where else in the world would first responders to a national emergency come under fire from among those they're trying to help?)

At what point will America wake up to the fact that caving in to low-tax, everyone-for-himself, survival-of-the-fittest attitudes results in one of the shabbiest societies on the planet?


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: SharonA
Date: 04 Sep 05 - 04:03 PM

Suicide in New Orleans: I heard a report on the local news this morning that two N.O. policemen were so overcome by the horror they were facing that they killed themselves. There was no mention of their ethnicity, so this may be off-topic.

On another note, Bill H says: "Our revered leader had some more photo ops yesterday---interesting ones---news pictures showed mostly Black people in dire straits and his shots were hugging and commisserating with the "dear folks I have met"--all white.   And, even that is a world removed from his and his empathy."

Actually, he had a "video op" in Mississippi hugging a young black woman and walking along with his arm draped over her shoulders, but I've read reports that it was highly staged ("Mr. Bush, walk over here, hug her, now turn and walk"... that sort of thing). As for the situation being "a world removed from his and his empathy", Bill is more correct than he may know. Bush is quoted here on www.newshounds.us referring to New Orleans as "that part of the world" as if it were a foreign country. Foreign to him, to be sure.

Bill H also asks, "Where oh where has our 'morality' and 'patriotism' of the WW2 years gone? " In light of this discussion, I couldn't help but think as I read Bill's question that the World War II years were part of the Jim Crow era, so the "morality" of that time dictated that it was acceptable to segregate, discriminate against, deny higher education and higher-paying jobs to, and even lynch African-Americans. The "patriotism" of that time dictated that it was acceptable to be proud of a government of the people, by the people and for the people while not considering certain races and ethnicities to fall under their definition of "people". Thank goodness THAT "morality" and "patriotism" is changing, but many people (especially in the Deep South) did not want that change forced upon them and they have been pushing back at it since the Civil Rights era of the 1960s.

Now, in the particular case of the N.O. evacuation debacle this week, I think the problem was incompetence and unpreparedness, not a "design" or plan to wipe out the African-American population of N.O. (For one thing, the N.O. jail was evacuated after the flood so that criminals would not break out and make the streets even more unsafe -- and most people in the video I saw of that evacuation were black -- but if there were a plan to kill off blacks and poor whites, allowing criminals to run rampant and do the killing would have been part of the plan). However, it certainly can't be denied that an undercurrent of hatred of blacks and poor whites has existed in N.O. and has proliferated under corrupt local government, so at the very least, that didn't help any!


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Sep 05 - 03:09 PM

I think a lot of people are confusing incompetence or unpreparedness with design.

Interesting point, Le Scaramouche. Something similar has been gradually dawning on me. Would you be willing to go into any more detail about your thoughts on this?


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Sep 05 - 11:54 AM

Good point, Saramouche.

Here online this morning, a turning of the tide:




As last refugees escape, New Orleans turns to its thousands of dead
September 04, 2005 10:08 AM EDT

NEW ORLEANS - With the last weary refugees rescued from the Superdome and convention center, New Orleans turned its attention Sunday to gathering up and counting the dead across a ghastly landscape awash in thousands of corpses.

The bodies of those killed in Hurricane Katrina are everywhere: hidden in attics, floating in the ruined city, crumpled in wheelchairs, abandoned on highways.

"I think it's evident it's in the thousands," Health and Human Services Secretary Michael Leavitt said Sunday on CNN, echoing predictions by city and state officials last week about the death toll.

Craig Vanderwagen, rear admiral of the U.S. Public Health Service, said one morgue alone, at a St. Gabriel prison, expected 1,000 to 2,000 bodies.

"We need to prepare the country for what's coming," Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff said on "Fox News Sunday." "We are going to uncover people who died hiding in the houses, maybe got caught in floods. It is going to be as ugly a scene as you can imagine."

Chertoff said rescuers going house to house have encountered a significant number of people who have said they do not want to evacuate.

"That is not a reasonable alternative," he said. "We are not going to be able to have people sitting in houses in the city of New Orleans for weeks and months while we de-water and clean this city. ... The flooded places, when they're de-watered, are not going to be sanitary."

Sunday morning, a woman's body remained lying at the corner of Jackson Avenue and Magazine Street - a business area in the lower Garden District with antique shops on the edge of blighted housing. The body had been there since at least Wednesday.

As days passed, people covered her with blankets or plastic.

By Sunday, a short wall of bricks had been built around her body, holding down a plastic tarpaulin. On it, someone had spray-painted a cross and the words, "Here lies Vera. God help us."

Charles Womack, a 30-year-old roofer, said he saw one man beaten to death and another commit suicide at the Superdome. Womack was beaten with a pipe and treated at the airport center, where bodies were kept in a refrigerated truck.

"One guy jumped off a balcony. I saw him do it. He was talking to a lady about it. He said it reminded him of the war and he couldn't leave," he said.

Three babies died at the convention center from heat exhaustion, said Mark Kyle, a medical relief provider.

But some progress was evident. The last 300 refugees at the Superdome were evacuated Saturday evening, eliciting cheers from members of the Texas National Guard who had been standing watch over the facility for nearly a week as some 20,000 hurricane survivors waited for rescue.

On Sunday, utilities planned to send trucks into the city to assess storm damage for the first time since Katrina struck. Morgan Stewart, a spokesman for electricity provider Entergy Corp., said the National Guard would escort the company's vehicles.

The convention center was "almost empty" after 4,200 people were removed, according to Marty Bahamonde, a spokesman for the Federal Emergency Management Agency. Earlier estimates of the crowd climbed as high as 25,000.

Thousands of refugees dragged their meager belongings to buses, the mood more numb than jubilant. Yolando Sanders, who had been stuck at the convention center for five days, was among those who filed past corpses to reach the buses.

"Anyplace is better than here," she said.

"People are dying over there."

Nearby, a woman lay dead in a wheelchair on the front steps. A man was covered in a black drape with a dry line of blood running to the gutter, where it had pooled. Another had lain on a chaise lounge for four days, his stocking feet poking out from under a quilt.

By mid-afternoon, only pockets of stragglers remained in the streets around the convention center, and New Orleans paramedics began carting away the dead.

The exact number of dead won't be known for some time. Survivors were still being plucked from roofs and shattered highways across the city. President Bush ordered more than 7,000 active duty forces to the Gulf Coast on Saturday.

"There are people in apartments and hotels that you didn't know were there," Army Brig. Gen. Mark Graham said.

The overwhelming majority of those stranded in the post-Katrina chaos were those without the resources to escape - and, overwhelmingly, they were black.

"The first few days were a natural disaster. The last four days were a man-made disaster," said Phillip Holt, 51, who was rescued from his home Saturday with his partner.

Tens of thousands of people had been evacuated from the city, seeking safety in Texas, Tennessee and many other states.

Texas Governor Rick Perry warned Saturday that his enormous state was running out of room, with more than 220,000 hurricane refugees camped out there and more coming. Emergency workers at the Astrodome were told to expect 10,000 new arrivals daily for the next three days.

In Washington, Transportation Secretary Norman Mineta announced that more than 10,000 people had been flown out of New Orleans in what he called the largest airlift in history on U.S. soil. He said the flights would continue as long as needed.

Thousands of people remained at Louis Armstrong New Orleans International Airport, where officials turned a Delta Blue terminal into a triage unit. Officials said 3,000 to 5,000 people had been treated at the unit, but fewer than 200 remain. Others throughout the airport awaited transport out of the city.

"In the beginning it was like trying to lasso an octopus. When we got here it was overwhelming," said Jake Jacoby, a physician helping run the center.

Airport director Roy Williams said about 30 people had died, some of them elderly and ill. The bodies were being kept in refrigerated trucks as a temporary morgue.

At the convention center, people stumbled toward the helicopters, dehydrated and nearly passing out from exhaustion. Many had to be carried by National Guard troops and police on stretchers. And some were being pushed up the street on office chairs and on dollies.

Around the corner, a motley fleet of luxury tour buses and yellow school buses lined up two deep to pick up some of the healthier refugees. National Guardsmen confiscated a gun, knives and letter openers from people before they got on the buses.

"It's been a long time coming," Derek Dabon, 29, said as he waited to pass through a guard checkpoint. "There's no way I'm coming back. To what? That don't make sense. I'm going to start a new life."

Dan Craig, the director of recovery for the Federal Emergency Management Agency, said it could take up to six months to get the water out of New Orleans, and the city would then need to dry out, which could take up to three more months.

A Saks Fifth Avenue store billowed smoke Saturday, as did rows of warehouses on the east bank of the Mississippi River, where corrugated roofs buckled and tiny explosions erupted. Gunfire - almost two dozen shots - broke out in the French Quarter.

In the French Quarter, some residents refused or did not know how to get out. Some holed up with guns.

As the warehouse district burned, Ron Seitzer, 61, washed his dirty laundry in the even dirtier waters of the Mississippi River and said he didn't know how much longer he could stay without water or power, surrounded by looters.

"I've never even had a nightmare or a beautiful dream about this," he said as he watched the warehouses burn. "People are just not themselves."

---

Associated Press reporters Kevin McGill, Robert Tanner, Melinda Deslatte, Brett Martel and Mary Foster contributed to this report.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 04 Sep 05 - 11:35 AM

I think a lot of people are confusing incompetence or unpreparedness with design.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: GUEST,Carping Cybersnipe
Date: 04 Sep 05 - 11:16 AM

This is more horse shit than I can stand. But you believe it because you want to.

*Plenty* of "pictures of Black suffering" have appeared on the Fox News Channel. i've been watching it and CNN. They have shown plenty of pictures of suffering, and 99% of the people they show are Black.
No network has been downplaying Black suffering. Shepard Smith was broadcasting live outside the Superdome for at least two days, showing dead bodies on the bridge and practically shouting at O'Reilley on two coinsecutive nights to take the slowness of the rescue operation alot more seriously.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Peace
Date: 04 Sep 05 - 01:53 AM

1) The raping and killing seems to have been exaggerated slightly.
2) Fox may not perceive Blacks to be worthy of consideration by their news network.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Pauline L
Date: 04 Sep 05 - 01:50 AM

I have two naive questions. Can someone please explain why (1) people are killing and raping other people in NO (I know that they're hot, tired, thirsty, hungry, and stressed, but really) and (2) Fox is not showing photos of the African Americans in deep trouble there?


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Peace
Date: 04 Sep 05 - 01:33 AM

Not THIS noble President by any chance:

Rory Carroll in Johannesburg
Wednesday March 31, 2004
The Guardian

"President Bill Clinton's administration knew Rwanda was being engulfed by genocide in April 1994 but buried the information to justify its inaction, according to classified documents made available for the first time.
Senior officials privately used the word genocide within 16 days of the start of the killings, but chose not to do so publicly because the president had already decided not to intervene.

Intelligence reports obtained using the US Freedom of Information Act show the cabinet and almost certainly the president had been told of a planned "final solution to eliminate all Tutsis" before the slaughter reached its peak."


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 07:35 PM

The magnitude was not larger than others---the problem was the skimping over the years in not financing the rebuilding of the barrier islands, the levees, etc;

New Orleans is particularly vulnerable---yet, pork barrelling alloted much money to building bridges to nowhere in Alaska, for example. Idealism and need are forgotten words in our political climate.

You have to wonder how we got to where we are as a nation given today's priorities and thinking. Probably that we had leaders and idealists at some point---some corrupt, surely---yet not of the magnitude we see today.

I won't repeat my comments re: sparcity of NG troops and Iraq.

Our revered leader had some more photo ops yesterday---interesing ones---news pictures showed mostly Black people in dire straits and his shots were hugging and commisserating with the "dear folks I have met"--all white.   And, even that is a world removed from his and his empathy.

To be fair minded---Jesse Jackson is not better---he showed up but brought a camera crew with him to cover his appearance---even some of his people yelled at him about his hypocrisy.

In the end---NO will rebuild, people will have moved to other cities, and many people--as I said earlier---will get rich on the rebuilding. It comes with our society.   Private contractors in Iraq---mucho dinero there---less for the poor folks that we urged to join the armed forces.   

I must ask---where oh where has our "morality" and "patriotism" of the WW2 years gone?    The words, even, have been comandeered to mean totally different things.   I believe we all know who has done the commandeering---and I am saddened to find that even on ex Pres. who, one might have thought, had more backbone has embraced the Bush admin. and volunteers to help whenever asked---instead of calling it for what it is. And I am not speaking of Daddy here.

Bill Hahn


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 07:20 PM

You have to prepare for disasters - you rehearse and you have drills and it's a pain, but that's what you do.

"I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't a single city in the U.S. with an escape plan for a storm/disaster of this magnitude." Very likely true. If so it's a clear case of "Those whom the gods would destroy they first make mad" (Euripides back in the fourth century BC)

When a major city is built below sea-level in a place where hurricanes are an ever-present possibility, there is a certain duty on those in authority to respond appropriately to that situation. And, as they used to claim to believe, "the buck stops here", in the White House.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Scoville
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 06:22 PM

I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't a single city in the U.S. with an escape plan for a storm/disaster of this magnitude. In 2000, during the coverage of the 100-year anniversary of the Galveston Flood, it was estimated that it would take a minimum of 36 hours to evacuate the island if another storm that size hit. Thirty-six hours. The 1900 hurricane didn't even last that long. What do you think the odds are of such an evacuation going as planned, even if everyone did as they were told, the bridge off the island wasn't damaged, and people weren't in a panic? Not likely.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 12:16 PM

Thanks, JennyO. Locally we heard the story about that bus arriving after collecting survivors, but I hadn't heard anything about the young man who initiated the trip. It was a tough call, and I don't think he made a bad choice.

It does beg the question--if he was able to drive that bus out of New Orleans, how come other buses weren't doing the same thing all along? This story, along with the news that the Red Cross wasn't allowed into New Orleans and other resources weren't being delivered, smack of turf wars among the various rescue agencies. Was it FEMA or someone from "Homeland Security" (whatever that is) that decided that if food and water were provided to the cesspool that people might want to stay?

It does sound like there are entrenched groups, not the poor or looters or police or others, but area residents in tall buildings who are making due. That link that PoppaGator provided (http://www.uta.edu/lc/) is an example.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 12:08 PM

Kirsten:

When hurricaine diasters struck the south in the 30's and 50's, historians did not write about the plight of the black and poor.

The institution of racism back then was not challenged or examined as it is today.


Nor was there any videotape to instant replay the suffering.

PS
catch phrase of the day:
"Who are you going to believe, Bush and Chertof - or your lying eyes?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: SINSULL
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 11:49 AM

I stand corrected. "Genocide" is not an appropriate term for the fiasco in NO. But I can't help but wonder if the same situation occurred on LI and thousands of blond haired blue eyed long legged ladies with big hair were trapped in Nassau Coliseum, how long would it take for help to arrive or at least food and water to be dropped to them?

And from a different perspective - with all the money spent on preparing for a nuclear (nucular, if you must) terrorist attack on a major city, is this the response time we can expect?


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: JennyO
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 11:02 AM

SRS mentioned earlier about stories emerging of resourceful survivors. I don't think anyone has linked to this story yet, but it made my day. I can't help wondering though how the young man in question will be treated over what he did. In my eyes he is a hero!

I'll post it as well as linking to it, in case the link doesn't last. There is a video of a report on it there as well.

Taking refuge in the Astrodome

Thursday, September 01, 2005   Updated: 11:32 AM

HOUSTON -- NEWSCHANNEL 5 crews were in Houston as some desperate refugees arrived in a stolen bus.

HOUSTON -- Thousands of refugees of Hurricane Katrina were transported to the Astrodome in Houston this week. In an extreme act of looting, one group actually stole a bus to escape ravaged areas in Louisiana.

About 100 people packed into the stolen bus. They were the first to enter the Houston Astrodome, but they weren't exactly welcomed.

The big yellow school bus wasn't expected or approved to pass through the stadium's gates. Randy Nathan, who was on the bus, said they were desperate to get out of town.

"If it werent for him right there," he said, "we'd still be in New Orleans underwater. He got the bus for us."

Eighteen-year-old Jabbor Gibson jumped aboard the bus as it sat abandoned on a street in New Orleans and took control.

"I just took the bus and drove all the way here...seven hours straight,' Gibson admitted. "I hadn't ever drove a bus."

The teen packed it full of complete strangers and drove to Houston. He beat thousands of evacuees slated to arrive there.

"It's better than being in New Orleans," said fellow passenger Albert McClaud, "we want to be somewhere where we're safe."

During a long and impatient delay, children popped their heads out of bus windows and mothers clutched their babies.

One 8-day-old infant spent the first days of his life surrounded by chaos. He's one of the many who are homeless and hungry.

Authorities eventually allowed the renegade passengers inside the dome. But the 18-year-old who ensured their safety could find himself in a world of trouble for stealing the school bus.

"I dont care if I get blamed for it ," Gibson said, "as long as I saved my people."

Sixty legally chartered buses were expected to arrive in Houston throughout the night. Thousands of people will be calling the Astrodome "home," at least for now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 09:27 AM

How about those pricks in the Sonesta Hotel eh?? Talk about compassion, is it any wonder those poor people in the Dome went crazy? Imagine eating gourmet meals and swimming in the pool with the devastation of Katrina outside your door.

My concern now is the flaming of racial tensions going on in the media(unless you watch Fox of course), I guess if the fuse is lit, you may as well toss the bomb.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 07:53 AM

It seems that The Speaker (US) has mumbled something about whether it would be economical to rebuild NO. He has been pilloried.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 07:44 AM

An Australian young (white) tourist lady rang home on a borrowed mobile from the Convention Centre, and told her parents she had been attacked, had all her money, her mobile and her clothes stolen. She hasn't been heard of since.

About 24 Aussies tourists (white, of course) managed to get a hitch out of the Superdome because they were terrified. The ladies had been constantly groped, and had it not been for the tall burly looking young Aussie lads with them, might have had other threats carr
ied out. They witnessed many rapes, theft, murders and stabbings.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Tam the man
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 07:35 AM

I wonder if Bush and friends would of being so slow if it was a city that the majorty was white.

Money comes first for Bush, people come last, However that's just my views

Tam


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 07:30 AM

A Louisiana State Police official on Fox says that N.O. was quiet last night and that earlier reports of snipers, rapes, and violence were "with a few real exceptions mostly exaggerations and rumors."


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 07:26 AM

Bill O'Reilly, not my favorite journalist, reports that Fox News has "established" that the state of Mississippi "had no emergency plan" for a category 5 storm.

Some perspective is in order, Hurricane Camille came ashore at Gulfport in 1969 as a category 5 with winds clocked at 200 miles per hour. It was far more severe than Katrina in that sense. Had the eye-wall hit N.O., the present situation would have come about 36 years ago.

An even worse storm, 200+ m.p.h, hit the Florida Keys in 1935.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Pauline L
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 02:55 AM

A comparison: San Francisco is built on the San Andreas Fault. People speculate about when -- not whether -- the Big One will occur. Emergency preparedness? Think about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Peace
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 10:01 PM

Thanks, JC, for making the link work.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: number 6
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 09:12 PM

"Or is the problem the fact that many of those people would have evacuated the city when told to if they'd had the means"

No, there were thousands of people who didn't have the means .... these are the thousands that live below the poverty line ... the thousands of people the tourists don't see when they visit the French Quarter, these are the people that the "haves" in the richest nation in the world don't see, let alone understand the problems and results of poverty. Poverty is the lowest depth of human misery .... no, they didn't have the means.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Peace
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 08:21 PM

'Lt. Gen. Carl Strock, chief of engineers for the Corps, dismissed suggestions that recent federal funding decreases or delayed contracts had any impact on levee performance in the face of Katrina's overwhelming force.

Instead he pointed to a danger that many public officials had warned about for years: The system was never designed to withstand a storm of Katrina's strength.

"It was fully recognized by officials that we had Category Three [hurricane] level of protection," Strock said. "As projections of Category Four and Five were made, [officials] began plans to evacuate the city.'

from this sight

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/09/0902_050902_katrina_levees.html

Sorry, link didn't work.
Does now. --JC


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: GUEST,G
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 08:14 PM

"Guy Who Thinks"; I pretty much agree with your take on Jeri.
Very sensible, Jeri.

ANd no, GWT, it is a documented fact that the standard for those levees is and always has been "built to withstand a Catagory 3".
Somewhere in this hallowed hall, I aske for someone to check with the Army Corps of Engineers to verify this. And once again, the ongoing levee project was to increase the height, NOT the strength, of the levees. I challenge anyone to prove this statement incorrect.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 08:07 PM

I mostly agree with Jeri, but the indications that the various governmental authorities did nothing remotely effective, over a period of decades, to strengthen those levees for a category 5 storm should be the prime focus of inquiry.

The Engineer general in charge of the underfunded and lethargic levee project staied on CNN that the barrier broke at at least one place which had already been brought up to the "new standard," which was to withstand only a category 3 hurricane.

Compared to that statement (and I hope I misheard it!), any discussion about slowness of response is almost moot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 07:27 PM

Well--looks like a picker of picayune portions. Nice alliteration, Bill---thanks, Bill.

OK now that I have complimented myself on wit let me say Mr. Hardly---and, thankfully, I hardly knew ye---could not resist that little jab and insight into your name--- speed is relative. Ask Albert Einstein.   Sorry---deceased.

My point was that it was not an Iraq discussion---merely a comment about the sparcity of troops that were envisioned to serve local needs and not fight wrong wars for us on the cheap.   As it is we hire "contractors"===read "merceneries"--for triple the play our troops rcve.   But---this is about Katrina and not your petty peeves about Iraq--oh, those petty peeves. Alliteration just cannot cease.


Bill Hahn


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: John Hardly
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 07:18 PM

No, we didn't "quickly" send troops to Iraq. Certainly not in terms of "quick" that would be a meaningful comparison to this disaster.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 07:07 PM

Having looked through this thread---a few thoughts:

The very first post is right on--though "classism" would be the most appropriate word.   Let us face it---the least desirable neighborhoods are peopled by the people closest to the poverty line. It ain't easy in The Big Easy. These were the areas hardest hit--and the pictures in the papers jumped out at me as it did, it seems, to many journalists---the color of the people we were seeing. We also must realize that over the years the city is predominantly Black (African / American---I am trying to be PC).   WHich is why I speak of "classism". Black/White it is all about economics---where you live.

Over the years the Corps of Engineers has urged the proper things needed to restore the barrier islands, the silt buildup that helps,etc;   Little was done.   Money was spent better elsewhere.

Our administration managed to quickly send troops to Irag (admittedly poorly equipped) and not that quickly to our own hard hit area. I won;t get into why we went there in the first place--and the using of a national force for our protection over non-existent Fed. Armed Services. WHich is why we are so thin in local NG people.

Photo Ops did abound, however, for our revered leader.   

One writer talks of "evacuation"---pictures abounded---disasterous. Just think people leaving on highways that did not even use the opposing lanes for that traffic---they stayed empty.

A few last thoughts:

New Orleans will surely re-build. Some people will get rich or richer in the process--which is what usually happens in this economy. Patriotism is a nomer from WW2. It is what always happens---even the Red Cross admits it would rather have cash to donations material to buy in the local area and rebuild the economy. Volunteers are not welcom---rightfully so--because of the danger and the lack of infrastructure. Being a drive or so away is not the answer---from reports it is not that easy to do that. Or that desired.

The best thing, I suppose, is to realize how vulnerable we all are to natural disasters and that we had also best realize that we live in a very class structured society. Help is on the way---if you are in the right class====or you may not even need it.

SUV owners take heed---best you can afford them. To steal from Dylan---The Times they are a changin'---sadly. I filled up my 28 mpg sedan yesterday---which still had 1/4 tank left---38.00. Guess that Escalade/Hummer/Tank or such is running over 80.00.   Guess to crush my little old car --unless you are Donald Trump--you will have to coast into me.

Bill Hahn


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Jeri
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 06:32 PM

Closed minds drive me nuts, no matter what side they're on. People form a rock solid opinion based on what they see or hear, and they're no light getting in. In this case, people seem to be playing Monday Morning FEMA Directer and looking for someone to blame. Blame the damned hurricaine.

I think there were some major screwups. Harry Connick Jr reports yesterday morning there are people without their essential medication, without food and water, and that these people are dying. Last night there wasn't any change in the situation that I could notice, other than the talking heads acknowledged the fact those people in the Convention Center actually existed and something would be done. I don't know why helicopters couldn't have dropped food and water. I don't know why doctors and medicines couldn't have been sent in. That's the whole point though: I don't know why.

I've had some experience in training for mass disasters, and I've had some small involvement in the planning process. I'f you've ever heard "No plan survives first contact with the enemy" (the 'enemy' in this case being a natural disaster of epic proportions) - it's not a figurative statement. People like FEMA don't plan to have a plan. They plan so they know where to start, what questions to ask, and how to find the answers.

Authorities plan how to react to a likely disaster, not the storm of the century. They plan how to handle the small numbers of people who refuse to evacuate. There will be a lot of evaluating what went wrong when people are done dealing with the immediate problems.

There were screwups. There always are. It's not clear to me exactly what the screwups are. Is the problem that the authorities didn't provide busses to evacuate people from the Superdome? Or is the problem the fact that many of those people would have evacuated the city when told to if they'd had the means


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 05:53 PM

The worst storm (hurricane) to hit the U.S. was the 1900 Galveston hurricane. That assessment may be revised after Katrina.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Peace
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 05:52 PM

PS   I hope that Condi Rice's shoes aren't hurting her feet.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Peace
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 05:47 PM

Incidentally, 150 Red Cross disaster-relief workers from Canada are now in Louisiana near NO. FYI.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 05:17 PM

The entire Times editorial by David Brooks is well worth reading.

About half of it recounts groundless, hysteria-based rumors that followed earlier disasters.

Before we compare 2005 to 1927, we should remember that in 1927 N.O., like many Southern and some Midwestern cities, was essentially controlled by Klansmen. They didn't much care about those "middle-class areas" because so many of them were occupied by Italian and Irish Americans, almost as much anathema to the KKK as were the Africans.

Eighty years ago. America has come a long way, in my view.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Peace
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 02:20 PM

"According to resources in Canada, Canadian TV is reporting they offered planes full of food, water, and supplies to help New Orleans refugees and America turned them down!"

Not true at all.

1) Disaster areas do NOT need 'helpful' people running around fixing things. It has to be coordinated.
2) Washington did not say no. Washington said they would accept the help when they could determine what help was needed.
3) Read this, SVP.

I don't really mind when folks call Bush an ass. He is. But call him an ass because he is, not to support a vitriolic agenda. What's happening in New Orleans is what happens in disasters. NO is about 70% Black. Expect that 70% of the deaths will involve Black people. If the numbers are higher--that is, if Black people die at a higher rate than other 'groups' of people, one should then maybe look at racism as a cause. But calling what is happening 'genocide' is reactionary claptrap, IMO.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 01:53 PM

Wesley, I DO remember. Thank you for contacting the agency. I cannot imagine how it would feel to be separated from any child, esp. a newborn!

Here's a very interesting op/ed piece from the NYTimes,
in particular the following paragraph (AND the ones right after it:)

Then in 1927, the great Mississippi flood rumbled down upon New Orleans. As Barry writes in his account, "Rising Tide," the disaster ripped the veil off the genteel, feudal relations between whites and blacks, and revealed the festering iniquities. Blacks were rounded up into work camps and held by armed guards. They were prevented from leaving as the waters rose. A steamer, the Capitol, played "Bye Bye Blackbird" as it sailed away. The racist violence that followed the floods helped persuade many blacks to move north.

Civic leaders intentionally flooded poor and middle-class areas to ease the water's pressure on the city, and then reneged on promises to compensate those whose homes were destroyed. That helped fuel the populist anger that led to Huey Long's success. Across the country people demanded that the federal government get involved in disaster relief, helping to set the stage for the New Deal. The local civic elite turned insular and reactionary, and New Orleans never really recovered its preflood vibrancy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 01:53 PM

Did I hear this right, the Mayor of New Orleans is staying in Baton Rouge?   Why isn't he with the citizens of his city?   Please tell me this isn't true.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 01:45 PM

I sent a donation to the American Red Cross via Amazon. They simply charge my card same as they would if I were purchasing a book. It's quick, and all of it goes to Red Cross. This is quick because I didn't have to enter all of the usual card information in a new site. Can it get any easier?

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Metchosin
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 01:40 PM

gee....it took singer Harry Connick Jr. one hour to drive from Baton Rouge to the Convention Centre in NO yesterday and speak with the people there. How long should it reasonably take to truck in food,water and medical supplies or load those poor bastards on buses and truck em out? Jeezus fucking Christ.

Riki Tiki Tavi Mongoose is Gone, he's been gone for a very long time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 01:35 PM

Let's solve the problem. Then, when there is time and leisure for real research and digging, let's investigate.

But first, there are people hungry, people sickening, people dying, people homeless. Pointing finger, writing essays about "genocide," casting blame on everyone else EXCEPT those that we agree with, is a bloody waste of energy and is solving nothing right now.

I've already sent a check, and we're working on doing more. Were I closer I might well be in thick of the efforts -- I've been shot at before.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 01:31 PM

This should go on that thread about misusing language - it isn't genocide, and it wouldn't be even if all the blacks in New Orleans were killed by the white administration - (a)not all the blacks that there are live in New Orleans, (b) there are plenty of poor people dying who don't happen to be black, and (c) it isn't only whites doing the extermination. Yes, it bites, but not in that particular way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Wesley S
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 01:25 PM

Thanks Kat. I live about a mile from Cooks Childrens Hospital and I've got nothing but good things to say about the staff there. Our son Patrick was there if you remember. Those babies are in very good hands - be sure of that. I know of a local ageny that should be able to help the parents with a place to stay. I'll make sure they are aware of this situation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 01:18 PM

SRS, here's some "feel good" stories: click here

Here's the beginning of the article:

FORT WORTH, Texas -- A newborn evacuated to a Fort Worth hospital from Louisiana will be reunited with family Thursday night, one of several children displaced by Hurricane Katrina.

Zachary Breaux was in good condition at the neonatal intensive unit of Cook Children's Medical Center. He was born Aug. 23 and admitted Thursday, said hospital spokeswoman Marti Quisling.

Zachary's family had taken shelter in Houston and called the hospital Thursday evening after learning of the baby's whereabouts, Quisling said.

KHOU

Zachary Breaux was located in a Fort Worth hospital Wednesday. He had been separated from his parents after Hurricane Katrina.

Similar reunions have occurred in the last few days at the hospital, she said.

Cook's officials are trying to contact parents of a 1-week-old baby girl in good condition.

The hospital also expects to receive more children evacuated from hurricane-ravaged areas, Quisling said.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 01:03 PM

Thanks, SRS, well put.

LH, yur last paragraph to Kirsten is some of the most brilliant I've read of yours. Thanks and keep it up!

Yesterday, the mayor of Boston said something to the effect that he realises their evacuation and prepareness plans are woefully inadequate based on what we have seen in NO this week. Therefore, he has called for a complete revamping, etc. and hopes that other cities will do likewise. That's the kind of good we will see, imo, along with the things SRS mentioned.

How folks are turning to the Internet for help in finding loved ones: click here.

Also, helping to find housing: click here.

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Wesley S
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 12:58 PM

And Guest - the amount of YOUR check was......


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