Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 01:47 PM

I predict there will be a fair number of amendments tabled, and some of them will be accepted.

And one good thing about the bill is, paradoxically, that it criminalises the musicians as such who persist in playing in unlicensed premises, which means that there would now be room for a civil disobedience campaign.

It also looks as if unless there are signifucant amendments, musicians playing on demonstrations, for example against the war, will fall within the scope of the act. And I can't see how that cold be legal under human rights legislation.

This has real possibilities.

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: IanC
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 03:01 PM

DMcG

It's at 10753 now so very little chance of it not passing 11660, I think. If it seriously looks like slowing down tomorrow, I'll attempt some more serious predicting.

BTW my e-mail to "The Ringing World" got published in the star spot on Friday (much to my surprise as I didn't write it for publication as such). Bellringers are seriously into the web, so I think they are probably already contributing to the petition by now and should help out quite a bit next week (there are a few 1000s).

If anyone else is a member of a similar group (e.g. church choir, Sal. Army band etc) then you know about the particular infrastructure ... a letter to "The Salvationist", for example, would probably work wonders.

The Church authorities have been a bit disappointing so far ... they seem to have used their influence to persuade Kim Howells to grant them some kind of exemption (as yet unstated). Is there anyone who could work on their sense of solidarity with other groups?

:-)

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 03:32 PM

The new head of the Church of England chose an Incredible Sring Band song on his recent Desert Island Discs show.

It contained the words-

'I can tell by the sadness in your eyes, that you never quite leaned the song.'

Perhaps he could be approached?

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 03:45 PM

Well he looks all right, I'd say (and that links to contact details among other things.)

But then I might be prejudiced.

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 04:21 PM

Looks as if you have been moonlighting.

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 04:27 PM

The Press Office, Lambeth Palace, London SE1 7JU
Tel: [phone]
Fax: [phone]

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: IanC
Date: 23 Dec 02 - 10:01 AM

DMcG asked me to post my e-mail(s) to "The Ringing World" ... what they published was a conglomerate of to so I'll post the whole conversation ...
____________________________________________________________________

I think that ringers should know that the new licensing bill going through parliament will almost certainly, as presently worded, catch bellringers and mean that, without a license (cosing annually £500 to £5000 per annum) no bell ringing is likely to be allowed.

This bill is supposed to be aimed at making 24 hour licensing of pubs possible, but the entertainment clause as it is currently written will affect morris dancers, carol singers, church concerts and bell ringers.

Ringers may wish to join in the protest by signing the petition

http://www.petitiononline.com/2inabar/petition.html

Best regards
Ian Chandler
St Mary's, Ashwell, Herts.
_____________________________________________________________________

Ian,

Thanks for this. I presume that you mean that this will stop ringers
serving beer at ringing functions - dinners, fundraising events and the
like? Or have I got the wrong end of ye stick?

Thanks,

Robert
_____________________________________________________________________

No, this is far more serious.

It means that a license is required for ANY LIVE MUSICAL PERFORMANCE at ANY VENUE ... the bill does not limit itself to pubs and clubs in this respect. The definition of a venue given in the bill is ANYWHERE. Bell ringing is, to my understanding a live musical performance.

What I mean is simply that a license will be required for BELLRINGING, unless the bill is re-worded.

Here's a link to the recent House of Lords debate (it's quite long and goes on far beyond the end of the page ...)

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld199900/ldhansrd/pdvn/lds02/text/21212-01.htm#21212-01_head2

Here's the text of the bill. You should note that local authorities are known at present for their VERY LITERAL interpretation of the concept of entertainment.

http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/ld200203/ldbills/001/03001.i-viii.html

Best regards
Ian
____________________________________________________________________

Hope that's useful.

BTW we're at nearly 12,000 by now. No sign of a slowdon so that there's every chance it'll go over 15,000 unless Christmas intervenes or something...

:-)

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Dec 02 - 10:10 AM

11,886!

This petition now beats the highest finshed E petition lodged at No 10 Downing St!

Not bad in (just over) the first week. Well done to everyone who has signed and especially those who helped to circulate the petition to enable so many people to already sign.

It is a great effort but we still have a long way to go, if the views of those who have signed are actually going to make a difference.

Merry Christmas! - To all our readers.

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 23 Dec 02 - 10:11 AM

is it handbell ringing or church bell ringing or both?

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: IanC
Date: 23 Dec 02 - 10:27 AM

church bell ringing but they do ring (not tunes) on handbells also.

:-)

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 23 Dec 02 - 10:36 AM

11912 Total Signatures to petition at www.musiclovers.ukart.com

Will they [the government]take any notice?

is there a history or precedent of governments changing laws or proposed legislation due to public outcrys like these?

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: ET
Date: 23 Dec 02 - 11:02 AM

Did you hear You and Yours on Radion 4 today. Looks like there will be amendments to allow exemptions for churches. Put to bill sponsor that Howells hates Folk Music and this his his revenge. On the web site for Department of Culture he lists his interests as listening to Jazz. Ought to ban that and quick then.

I got the impression however that the sponsoring MP from Selby couldn't belive his own Bill in parts. Man from real ale brewery was very good...man from Dublin said pubs there open all hours - had made no difference. MP from Selby said it was much quieter now in Douglas in the Isle of Man. Did not know this was a hotbed of disorder.

Happy Christmas and New Year

PS Have written to Tessa Jowell about Kim Howells - hoping she has some control over him

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Folkie
Date: 23 Dec 02 - 11:03 AM

BBC Hereford and Worcester have just put a link to the petition on their website.

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: ET
Date: 23 Dec 02 - 02:16 PM

From Hamish (MU)


Please forward

The online petition opposing the live music provisions of the Licensing Bill has just passed the 12,000 signature mark:
http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?2inabar

While licensing Minister Kim Howells has announced a government 'rethink' on the licensing of all secular music in churches, there is no sign of movement over the 'none in a bar' position for everywhere else.

The government is trying to spin their way out of public opposition by claiming the new live music licence will be cheap and easy to obtain. It is in fact highly unlikely that licences will be either easy or cheap to get. The Local Government Association has recently circulated a discussion paper which envisages licence applications for live music detailing the style of music, the maximum number of musicians, where in the premises they are to play, and when. Such a prescriptive approach might be appropriate for premises where live music is the main business, but it is unworkable for informal folk sessions, or jazz jam sessions in pubs or bars.

Stuart Neame, of Shepherd Neame brewery, claims that if pubs opt for live music under the new regime many could face local authority licence conditions costing up to £10,000. Certainly I have heard that even small acoustic folk pubs are being required to provide door supervisors (to count people in and out) and to install double glazing.

Remember that the Bill exempts broadcast or jukebox music, however powerfully amplified. The government has looked carefully at safety and noise legislation and concluded that it is adequate to deal with noisy crowds jumping up and down in pubs.

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Dec 02 - 07:06 PM

12517

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 24 Dec 02 - 04:02 AM

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Partridge
Date: 24 Dec 02 - 04:07 AM

12632
Faxed my MP as well about 2 weeks ago - no reply surpise surprise!

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: ET
Date: 24 Dec 02 - 04:48 AM

I see there is a Jools Holland thread. I wonder if he and Billy Bragg could influence Kim Ill Sung Howells and his music control. He claims to like Jazz but hates folk? I have already enlisted Mike Harding but he is fortunate enough to life in Connemara, Ireland and whilst he cares there is no problem there.

Anyone know any contacts?

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 24 Dec 02 - 04:58 AM

Hi ET, it was me what started the "Jools Holland" thread, you can contact him directly through his website, just put Jools Holland in your search engine to find it.
Billy Bragg, is contactable through his agent, I cant remember who it is at the minute, and i am just about to go to town for shopping, but i will try to find out when i get back.john

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 24 Dec 02 - 06:06 AM

West Dorset District Council, where they prevented the mummers play, is Billy Bragg's local council!!!!

Can someone give him a little nudge?

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 26 Dec 02 - 02:21 PM

13,919

http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?2inabar&1

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 27 Dec 02 - 04:28 AM

14,090.

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Dec 02 - 06:57 AM

14,194

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: vindelis
Date: 27 Dec 02 - 11:14 AM

14346

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 27 Dec 02 - 08:40 PM

14606

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: fiddler
Date: 27 Dec 02 - 09:03 PM

We need to widen the appeal now.

I know many of os have little to do wioth tehm but it is going to affect Church groups too!

If you know anyone active in a church get some contact details and circulate the info.

What is the Voting population of UK?
What is the over 16 population of UK?

We need som statistics!

Shambles you seem to be doing a great job.

Wha tis the response to 27th Janury - I'll b using up my last day of leave for it!

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: rock chick
Date: 27 Dec 02 - 09:22 PM

14610

rc

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 27 Dec 02 - 10:05 PM

14611 at 03.08 uk time

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: fiddler
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 08:49 AM

So forgetting Party Politics I got this back form John Redwood today!

Thank you for your e mail. I quite agree with you, and I am writing to
Ministers to tell them of my displeasure, and the views of many of my
constituents who also oppose this measure. With best wishes for 2003.
Yours sincerely John Redwood

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 05:15 PM

15007.

At least that many believe, Sham, even if Fionn doesn't

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 29 Dec 02 - 01:42 PM

15,383.

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 04:03 AM

15592

Fiddler wanted some statistics. The UK Office of National Statistics is the place to go. http://www.statistics.gov.uk/census2001/ will give lots of info, including an Excel spreadsheet with the population in each category.

In yesterdays "Observer", there was a review of 2002 by 'celebs' asked to vote for highlights and turkeys. Here's the 'Turkey' from one Eliza Carthy:

Turkey: Kim Howells, the Minister in charge of the new 'two-in-a-bar' legislation which has resulted in a number of folk venues being closed down. Will he sleep at night when he realises he's killing off our indigenous culture?

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 04:44 AM

15,629 @ 09.47am UK time

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 01:55 PM

16,045 17.00 hrs

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: fiddler
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 02:31 PM

OK then Simple stats

Based on UK Over 18 Population (therby able to vote
at 16066 (just checked) 0.035% (45.4 mill) good going!
Based on over 16 (out of interest - 46.9 mill)0.034%

England and Wales only varies these totals to 0.4 and 0.39 respectively.

Does anyone know if the MU (or anyone else) has stats for the number of people who play instruments at present?

That one would be interesting.

A

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: fiddler
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 02:32 PM

BTW I'll re check these figures from time to time!

A

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 08:25 PM

Tuesday December 31, 2002
The Guardian

As a jobbing politician and peripatetic choral singer, and in common with many of your recent correspondents (December 21), I am apprehensive about the consequences for music-making of the government's intention to extend performance licensing. The prospect of mounting effective opposition to the proposal has not been improved by the view taken by the National Federation of Music Societies, under guidance from its chief executive (himself a committed amateur musician), that the extension of licensing is, in the words of its briefing note, "a fait accompli", and that the most appropriate stance for them is therefore to work with the Department of Culture to influence the background guidance to licensing authorities.

But whatever guidance is on offer, councils, spurred on by their insurers, are likely to take a risk-minimising view of the conditions to be imposed on any premises they are required to license for performances and this alone is likely to result in a decrease in the number of performances and the availability of venues in future.
Peter Johnston
Bolton, Lancs

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: John Routledge
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 08:33 PM

Regretably the requirements of Insurance Companies will indeed cause severe problems as they already do in many other spheres of Local Authority activities. Councillors and Officers do take note of their Insurers.

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: fiddler
Date: 31 Dec 02 - 06:18 AM

I've noticed a few duplicate Signatures!

Presumably this is all to be downloaded to Access and checked before submission? If not waht would be the ramifications.......

OK I can be a bit of an anorak when I want - why else do I come on Mudcat - Some of the nicest anoraks in the world can be found here.

A

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Dec 02 - 06:38 AM

There are some duplicates and some completely spurious entries. However, I think these are outweighed, numerically, by the number of times two people have shared a signature (eg entry 146)

There will certainly be some cleanup needed before it is presented.

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 31 Dec 02 - 06:57 AM

In every election there are always a certain pecentage of spoilt papers, this does not make the election invalid, does it?

Let us not encourage the 'loonies'.

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: ET
Date: 31 Dec 02 - 07:37 AM

In the Times shortly will be an open letter from a Lawyers/performers group, about the Human Rights Aspect of this legislation. Letter sent direct to the Minister. Signatures include that of a QC.

I also fear that the legislation will go through via the canon fodder of MP's but keeping the pressure up should be good. There are concerns in the Department that Local Authorities will run amok, hence centralised fees. The Local Government Association are the body that influences Local Authorities the most. They have a seminar on this subject next spring. See their Web site - search UK Local Government Association

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Dec 02 - 08:19 AM

So the National Federation of Music Societies thinks that this is all a "fait accompli".

I'd have thought that was one organisation that might have been expected to appreciate the truth of the adage "It ain't over till the fat lady sings."

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 31 Dec 02 - 08:49 AM

In the Times shortly will be an open letter from a Lawyers/performers group, about the Human Rights Aspect of this legislation. Letter sent direct to the Minister. Signatures include that of a QC.

This fine letter can be read now in the following thread.

Folking lawyers

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 31 Dec 02 - 08:56 AM

On the subject of fees.

From Morning Advertiser (26/09/02),

Council wants local discretion' to recover £2.5m costs of overseeing licensing Camden to lobby for fees leeway
BY PAUL CHARITY

Camden Council is to lobby the Government for "leeway" in charging licensees to process liquor licence applications when licensing is transferred to it after reform. The council will see the number of licences it oversees leap from 300 to 1,500 after reform and believes its running costs may rise from £500,000 a year to £2.5m. It wants "local discretion" to be able to recover its costs in fees.

PELs cost an average of £1,000 to £1,200 in Camden but two or three premises pay £20,000 a year - it has been suggested by trade leaders the licence fee will be a maximum of £300 after reform.

"It can't be a blanket fee if we are to recover our costs," said Trish O'Flynn, Camden licensing and safety manager. The council also believes that it will need two or three years for the job to be transferred to it smoothly - the Government wants a one year transition period. O'Flynn, who sits on the subgroups drawing up the licensing bill, said: "If the money isn't there the whole system is going to seize up with people waiting inordinate amounts of time for their licences to be processed.

"The London boroughs, in particular, are arguing for a higher fee, because our running costs are that much higher. I know the industry is pushing for the lowest fee level. But if there's no leeway there, then ultimately, it's the licensees that will suffer because their licenses won't be processed."

O'Flynn thinks that boroughs like Camden, with an "articulate population very interested in licensing" might see many more reviews of licensed premises requested by residents than a rural authority, which could add substantially to Camden's costs. On the issue of the transition period, she said a 12-months period meant the council would have to be issuing 25 licences a week. "We're suggesting a two or three year transition period." Camden's lobbying campaign will also argue for greater sovereignty for local authority policy. "We Want to look beyond individual premises to the cumulative impact of premises. Government policy is that there should be less discretion for local authorities than now." Currently, applicants for contested PELs in Camden can expect to wait all average of six months for a decision. "That's why we would like to see the transition staged over two or three years, so you get them arriving 50 at a time or something. It'd be very difficult to process [1,500] all at once." O'Flynn believes a number of local authorities will not be as prepared for reform as Camden. "Everybody needs to understand the complexities of the situation. We're planning ahead - it worries me that not every borough is doing that."

Camden Council is to push ahead with a cheaper "unplugged PEL licence" as part of its new "Night in Night Out" licensing policy. The licence is aimed at pubs which want to showcase acoustic, folk and jazz performances. It would cost just 25% of the normal PEL fee. The licence requires less paperwork and limits premises to a 100 capacity and a midningy terminal our. Camden licensing and safety manager Trish O'Flynn said "It's a regular music and dancing licence but with a condition that says there's no amplification whatsoever of any part of the performance. The licence conditions relating to noise will be simpler for licensee and for the officers who are enforcing it."

Pub promo laws unlikey British Beer Pub Association guidelines on pub promotions such as happy hours and drinking games are unlikely to be included in a new licensing bill- despite pressure within the industry from the Portman Group. The alcohol watchdog had originally expressed a preference for reform to incorporate such a code. . But the Portman Group last week published it own tougher code of practice, finally agreed to leave the issue to the BPPA, 'this is somebody else's territory, and, although there were suggestions that we should get involved, in the end we felt this was adequately being dealt with," said Portman Group Director Jean Coussins. BBPA communications director Mark Hastings commented 'we shall be revisiting the guidelines after about a year to see if, they need strengthening, but we're not asking for them to be in a new act as the police already have considerable new powers, including the ability to close a pub for 24 hours."

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Schantieman
Date: 31 Dec 02 - 09:49 AM

Possible success - or just an emollient?

I e-mailed my MP (Claire Curtis-Thomas(Labour, Crosby)) imploring her to do something about it. She wrote back (well, she signed it personally) saying she couldn't believe the intention of the Bill was to stop people singing in pubs and that she'd written to the Minister, Baroness Blackstone, asking for clarification.

Happy New Year all


Steve

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 31 Dec 02 - 11:58 AM

Camden Council is to push ahead with a cheaper "unplugged PEL licence" as part of its new "Night in Night Out" licensing policy. The licence is aimed at pubs which want to showcase acoustic, folk and jazz performances. It would cost just 25% of the normal PEL fee. The licence requires less paperwork and limits premises to a 100 capacity and a midningy terminal our . Camden licensing and safety manager Trish O'Flynn said "It's a regular music and dancing licence but with a condition that says there's no amplification whatsoever of any part of the performance. The licence conditions relating to noise will be simpler for licensee and for the officers who are enforcing it."


what's a 'midningy terminal our'?

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: fiddler
Date: 31 Dec 02 - 12:48 PM

For once Camden seem to be thinking but what of the poor s*ds who work as a duo and perform and therby use a small amount of PA to get over the noise in the premises!

It doesn't answer the problem unfortunately.

I still think football matches etc. should be part of it.

By Camdens reckoning an acoustic session of over 100 is dangerous to the public but in the same building a football, rugby or other sport special with praps over 200 is not!!

Come on Camden lets get it better than that!

A

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Dec 02 - 02:01 PM

midnight terminal hour. The thing stops at midnight.

Intersting that the govt says you cannot exempt acoustic music because folk cannot be defined. Funny Camden does not seem to see the same problem.

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 31 Dec 02 - 02:20 PM

Folk are being encouraged to write to their MPs and are receiving a pretty standard response from the DCMS, which on the surface seems to most uniformed MPs and those who wish to believe what their government tells them, to be a reasonable postion.

Hamish Birchall has taken the time to provide an informed response to this letter, to enable you to return to your MP, and challenge the information the DCMS are providing to them. It is long however and it can be found on the following thread.

PELs for beginners