BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV

Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 01:20 PM

Sounds like a Rangers v Celtic soccer match in Glasgow, where after 90+ minutes shouting abuse at each other they go home and turn on the TV to see who won the match they'd just left.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 12:53 PM

Frankly, I'm sick and tired of screaming from EITHER side of an issue. We no longer discuss it, we yell at each other and in so doing do nothing.

And remember what was said about "good men who do nothing."

Eric Hoffer wrote in The True Believer that we only associate with those who think as we do, and hence we think that everyone agrees with us.

This is just true for warhawks as for peace activists, for those campaigning for equal rights as for Klan members.

But no one listens and everyone yells.

Hence, nothing is done and tyrants take over.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: Peace
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 11:15 AM

That is true, LH, and that has been part of my issue with Kirsten Anderberg. She sees and uses part of an issue.

Poverty in the US for example finds 70% of the 'poor' population to be female. When the argument for rights stops there it then means that the other 30% are ignored. Her agenda figures that that's OK because the other 30% are men.

Kirsten is an activist, so she puts it on the line--for which I admire her. However, when people follow blindly after only half the story, they are little better than the folks they listen to who gave only half the story.

I have read many of her articles and I too agree with much she writes and thinks. However, often her presentations are one-sided, and she loses me there.

When her wrist was broken in a demonstration in Seattle, I felt a certain sympathy and maybe even a solidarity with her and the 500 who were protesting an injustice. BUT, nowhere in her articles could I find reference to the fact that some of the protest folks had burned an American flag. Did that seem to PO the cops? Well, duh, yes!

Her remarks about welfare mothers having a very terrible time on the pittance they receive from government is just and true. I would have been more impressed if she had said mothers and fathers. That she had issues with her father has affected her outlook. So she slams men. I can see that as being justifiable from her perspective. But he mother was no angel either (if what she wrote is accurate), and she chooses to slam only her 'dud' (as she calls him). That is her choice, but when I read it, I have choices also. There are enough REAL issues for poor people without having them shunned--and she contributes to that.

I think Anderberg is bright enough to get her point across by presenting both sides of an issue. I wish she would.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 10:40 AM

never trust a proselytizer who doesn't know the difference between 'drivel' and "dribble".

Thanks, Joe Offer & Little Hawk for expressing the sentiments relevant to this sanctimonious BS.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 10:25 AM

Thanks, Stilly. By the way, I also basically vote with Joe Offer on this one. He has the sense to look at it reasonably, taking many different factors into consideration.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 10:07 AM

Little Hawk, you scored a perfect 10 with your observations. No need to say more.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 10:03 AM

Latest was that five people were killed after they opened fire on armed police (nice job by those cops).

There have also been reports that the people shot were in fact army construction workers, and that this was a case of "friendly fire". I think it'd be best to hold off on saying "nice job" until the facts have been sorted out. (A few weeks ago people were congratulating the London police for shooting what turned out to be an unarmed and totally innocent man, who was already in police restraint. It's best to wait for the facts before rejoicing.)

The evidence about a widespread eruption of violence towards rescue workers doesn't seem to measure up to the extent that has been alleged. There seems to be an awful lot of rumour based stuff coming out.

There's an interesting piece in toiday's Guardian about the guy who has been put in charge of relief effort on the ground, Lieutenant General Russel L Honore. He sounds OK:

A native of Louisiana, he is nicknamed "the Ragin' Cajun" for his habit of speaking his mind. For fun, he is said to enjoy throwing tomahawks.

He wasted no time in barking out the orders on his first walk through central New Orleans, commanding every national guardsman or police officer he came across to point their gun barrels towards the ground. "This is not Iraq," he told them. It was one sign that behind the iron demeanour is a leader in tune with the sensitivities of the mission.

That last bit is encouraging - I was looking at shots of troops earlier on, before Honore would have taken over, and I was struck by how menacing they looked, pointing their guys at everything that moved or even at dead bodies, as if they were scared they were booby-trapped terrorists.

If the level of violence has in fact been exaggerated by rumours (amplified perhaps by the kind of mindset generated by the sort of disaster movies I mentioned earlier in the thread) that could have had a very damaging impact on rescue work.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 08:39 AM

By George, LH has at least tried to say what's on his mind!

By the way, I vote with Joe Offer. (And the National Guard, the Marines, or anyone else can be issued an order authorizing them to use deadly force if necessary. It has nothing to do with federalization or staying under state control -- but if they were federalized they would be paid and under the orders of the DoD, not Louisiana.)

Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: GUEST,G
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 08:36 AM

Man, this is a tough room for a middle of the roader or perhaps a semi-conservative! Whew!!!

Bunnahabbain (sp) Joe has nailed it so far as we know.

LH, either that or Ms. Kirsten is on the absolute top of the 'pile' as far as "egging on" goes.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: artbrooks
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 08:32 AM

As Rapaire said, I've heard many references to the alleged "shoot to kill" order, but have never heard exactly who originally gave it, if such an order was ever given by someone in authority. So, folks, is there a link? A direct quote that can be Googled? Or are we engaging in one of our favorite habits...inventing an issue and then badmouthing everyone in sight?

Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 08:10 AM

Don't you mince your words LH; go on say what you really mean!
G. ¦¬]

Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 07:53 AM

Kirsten, you suffer from the worst case of exaggerated self-righteousness and imagined moral superiority that I have ever seen in a person on this forum. Even those who are naturally inclined to agree with many of your views (and I am one of them) would have no wish to be exposed to your toxic personality on anything but the most occasional basis. Your sense of exclusivity and martyrdom is totally misplaced. You are not the moral conscience of this forum or of any other place. You are a person completely out of control of a raging mind that is seriously in need of acute psychotherapy. You are the loosest loose cannon that ever careened across the deck of a sinking ship. You are an embarrassment to the cause of women's rights everywhere. If made President of the USA, you would be even MORE dangerous than George Bush, and that is saying something! The anti-war movement doesn't need you, Kirsten. Neither do oppressed women need you, nor do black people need you, nor do any of the other oppressed people in this World need you, Kirsten, because you have not even a glimmer of any real understanding or compassion or empathy or respect for anyone in your nature. If you ran out of people to hate and blame and have contempt for, your life would suddenly be without conscious purpose, because that's all you think about. You make Martin Gibson at his worst seem almost human (he's VERY conservative, and his opinion of this forum is similar to yours, it seems). Your ego is way out of control, Kirsten. All you have been on this forum is a huge, raging MOUTH looking for ears to listen passively, and then "oh" and "ah" at your brilliance and righteousness. I would happily leave this forum behind and get on with my life, Kirsten, just for the privilege of not having to ever listen to you again.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: Grab
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 07:18 AM

Maybe I read different news from Kirsten. The news I saw was that at least one rescuer had already been shot (fortunately not fatally), and rescuers have been repeatedly forced to abandon attempts to rescue people due to coming under fire. All articles say that anyone going out on the street is risking their life, with armed gangs ready to kill anyone for what they're carrying. Latest was that five people were killed after they opened fire on armed police (nice job by those cops).

Looting by itself is not serious. However it's symptomatic of an utter breakdown in law and order, where people get to thinking that the usual rules don't apply. So control of looting is a side-effect of bringing law and order back.

As for why those soldiers and cops were stood around - well, if all the inhabitants of NO were peaceful then they could indeed be pitching in. However, since many people in NO are busy fucking it up for the rest, half the rescuers need to stand guard to protect the other half who are working. And the fault for the rescue effort being slowed due to that is down to the criminals in NO who are busy going round looting in armed gangs.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 06:49 AM

Ok, straw poll, people.

Do you belive there was a :

1. deliberate lack of Emergency management (Donuel)

or

2. The disaster relief failure was caused by a war, an overemphasis on terrorism, and a plain-and-simple major screwup. (Joe Offer)

or

3. A bit of both.

I'm with joe on this one.


Bunnahabhain.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: Stu
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 04:54 AM

"...they have no reason to shut anybody up about hurricane relief."

Hmmmm, not so sure about that Joe. In my opinion there is a bigger picture at work here. The underlying causes of Katrina may possibly be rooted in global warming. If this were proved to be so (in all likelihood, impossible), it would have disastrous consequences for GWB, the oilman's patsy, who has refused to sign the Kyoto protocol and cocked a snoop at the rest of the world.

The fact this happened in the US and not in Asia or the Far East was quite unexpected, and it is in the vested interests of the oil companies to keep any sort of criticism as quiet as possible, as them an their man being implicated in denying the existance of a real threat to humanity.

stigWeard

Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 04:50 AM

#1 The lady Govenor of Louisiana insisted that the National guard be under her control and not be federalized. Why? because they can not be ordered to shoot to kill if the Guard is federalized. She felt that the loss of the police dept. warranted the use of deadly force.
The legendary 3 sniper incidents have become the grist for FOX news and makes it sound like a ceaseless running gun battle. Granted guns, liquor, lack of food and gang banger anger is a bad mix but they are probably having fewer shooting incidents than Wash DC has on any given night.
Blaming the scant few looter shooters for the deliberate lack of Emergency management is a stretch for anyone except white supremists.

#2 I listened to a woman being interviewed regarding her experience in caring for her fellow flood victims in New Orleans.
She said that in her efforts to get medical supplies, a National Guard soldier at a ruined Walgreens Drugstore told her to take what she needed.

Common sense is not common but it seems far more common at the grass roots level than in the world of international criminal politicians.



PS, I enjoy kristen editorials but I savor John Stewart's "editorials".

Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 02:16 AM

I dunno, Eric. Bill Clinton was impeached for lying under oath, not for having oral sex - he WAS impeached by the House, but he wasn't convicted in the Senate trial. There's the same kind of erroneous thinking in Kirsten's allegation of a "Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV" - it's not about stealing a television, it's about a rampage of looting of the homes and businesses belonging to the already-suffering victims of a disaster.

Yes, the oil companies contribute heavily to both political parties, but they have no reason to shut anybody up about hurricane relief. It seems to me that the major failure was that the Bush Administration overemphasized the antiterrorism efforts of The Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) and the Department of Homeland Security, and neglected disaster relief. That, and fighting Bush's silly war left nothing for disaster assistance.

It wasn't racism or conspiracies or anything like that. The disaster relief failure was caused by a war, an overemphasis on terrorism, and a plain-and-simple major screwup.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 01:01 AM

I vote for a party too. Let's all go to Spaw's.

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: GUEST,Eric
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 12:43 AM

"I cannot explain how or why the people of America have not already impeached this man. What Bush has done is so much WORSE than ANYTHING Nixon did. And Nixon had only two choices presented to him: resign or be impeached..."

I agree 100%. However, Bill Clinton nearly was impeached for recieving oral sex? c'mon I honestly believe that at least 3/4 of this country are complete morons that have no common sense. They either don't know or don't care. WHY WON'T ANYBODY IMPORTANT STEP UP AND SAY SOMETHING ABOUT THIS ON A NATIONAL LEVEL? Because the Democrats are in on it too in a way. THE OIL COMPANIES DONATE MONEY TO THE CAMPAIGNS OF BOTH REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS, SO THEREFORE THEY SHUT EVERYBODY UP.

I am voting for another party next time.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 03:57 PM

How do you become an ex-african-american ?

Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 03:48 PM

Anarchy, looting, rape, and murder are not condusive to repairing New Orleans.   A gang of 5 hoodlums opened gunshot fire on a group of FEMA voluteers trying to help the city.

Meanwhile, in Mississippi, Governor Barbour ordered Marshall law, brought in the military, and there was no crime, no looting, no rapes, and no murders.

Two different approaches by two different governors. Which was the more civilized approach?

I contend that Mississippi was the far better approach.   Right on Ruben Greenstein! (ex african merican orthodox jewish mayor of Charleston who had looters shot on site during Charleston dissaster years ago)

Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: jeffp
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 03:44 PM

They wear camouflage uniforms because that is what their uniforms are. It's that simple, really.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 03:38 PM

Precisely.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 03:35 PM

The crucial color is green. Not black or white.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 03:34 PM

God, it is amusing to see the notoriously liberal membership of this forum for ONCE being accused of being, of all things, "rednecks"! LOL! This after various infuriated conservatives battling endlessly with that same membership for the last few years over their reputedly extreme "liberal bias".

Kirsten doesn't seem to realize that most people here detest George Bush just as much as she does, and are basically about as liberal as she is too (or radical), but not as bloody-minded and stridently self-righteous about it...or to put it more simply...not outright rabid and foaming at the mouth. Where are the tumbrils when we need them, Kirsten? Tell us who to kill first...please! We await your orders, Madame Commandant Supreme of the Revolutionary Judging and Condemning Squad.

Some people just aren't happy about anything, it seems.

By the way, Kirsten, I agree with quite a bit of what you said in your article regarding Amerika's government policies and intentions, but it's still not racism. It's classism. Racism was what got O.J. Simpson his acquittal, remember? Racism can cut either way, Kirsten, but be sure of this: the poor are always between the hammer and the anvil. That's how classism works. If you're black and rich it's a different story. It's very much like being white and rich. Or oriental and rich. Or Arabic and rich. Or anything and rich.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 03:29 PM

"It sounds like New Orleans is a jungle, and nobody is safe there."

I just wonder to what extent that is actually true, and to what extent it is a spin that is being put on it.

In all the news coverage I've seen I haven't seen anything that looks like a riot - and the way the media operate, I'm sure if there was footage showing that, it'd be seen, and we've seen it often enough before. All the shots of "looting" I've seen have looked much more like what I'd call "salvaging". Lots of shots of troops wearing camouflage gear (why camouflage gear which makes them stand out from the background like they were in a spotlight?) walking down streets with guns at the ready, like in a flooded part of Baghdad.

And I've also seen a lot of news footage giving a picture of people helping each other, in the way that does often seem to be the dominant pattern of behaviour in civil disasters.

I get a feeling some people have been watching too many Mad Max type movies and interpreting eveything that happens in the kinds of terms shown in them - dog eat dog, and everyone is against everyone else. And that can be a self-fulfilling prophecy. (And I imagine some of the New Orleans residents would have seen those movies too.)

Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: Rapparee
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 03:16 PM

The "shoot to kill" order is the media's interpretation. While I haven't seen the thing, I suspect that it says that the people involved can use deadly force if it is necessary.

There's a world of difference between "can" and "will." Moreover, a cop or a guardsman (or guardswoman) who shoots at anyone, whether or not they hit them, will be the subject of an investigation (or court martial, if military).

My original question remains unanswered: has anyone been shot dead for stealing?

Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 03:12 PM

It's a difficult question, this business of "shoot to kill" orders when an area is under martial law. It sounds like New Orleans is a jungle, and nobody is safe there. All semblance of law and order has broken down, and it's more-or-less an ongoing riot. I suppose it takes extreme measures to get that sort of thing under control. Still, when you have a "shoot to kill" order (which is about the same as what goes on in wartime), you have the probability that some of those soldiers and law enforcement officers are going to abuse that order and kill just for the thrill of it, or just because they're afraid or an an adrenaline rush. I suppose that's what happened at Kent State University, and in many of the labor struggles of the past.

I suppose you can dramatize the thing and say it's unjust to kill for stealing damaged goods or something, but that's not the point - the "shoot to kill" orders are meant to bring the riot under control, not to avenge the theft of a TV.

If you have a riot, what can you do? How do you make a place safe if violence is everywhere? I suppose we have to trust that there will be people who will keep the controllers under control. And if there are unjustified killings, there must be consequences.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 03:02 PM

I can't ever see why anyone thinks it matters a damn who starts a thread or what motive they might have in doing so. What matters is whether the discussion that comes out of it is in some way of interest or value.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 03:02 PM

There are several types of logical fallacies that Anderberg is trumpeting in this circular argument of hers, but I don't have time to go through and mark them right now.

Someone who is has the stomach for analyzing her argument might want to visit http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ and you'll see them very neatly categorized.

First thing Anderberg needs to start with is "Constructing a Logical Argument."

She also needs to go find someplace else to post. She's an opportunist who found an open forum to park her drivel, nothing more.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 02:58 PM

The rest of you aren't getting it.   She is a troll. Tosses a hand grenade and then runs away without responding. Never bothers to argue a point and sits back in her suburban home sipping latte's chuckling to herself at the response. Don't feed into it.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: pdq
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 02:57 PM

Why is looting, along with political corruption, accepted in Louisiana...

...in the words of the late, great Lewis Grizzard: "they can't find 12 people in Louisiana who think stealing's a crime."

Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: Peace
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 02:55 PM

"poor people die for rich white American male corporate presidents"

Seems they might be getting killed for a few females, too. Hell, we're all rednecks and racist. You seem like a sexist to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: Peace
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 02:45 PM

"You all are a pretty redneck bunch for sure."

This means that anyone who does not agree with you is a redneck? Like, uh, who died and left you boss?

Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: pdq
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 02:38 PM

Why is looting, along with political corruption, accepted in Louisiana...

...in the words of the late, great Lewis Grizzard: "they can't find 12 people in Louisiana who think stealing's a crime."

Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 02:38 PM

A lot of what is being described as "looting" sounds much more like it should be called "salvaging". In a flooded city like New Orleans this week the stuff in shops - electrical goods and clothes and food and that, had in effect been destroyed, so far as the legal owners are concerned. The only way anyone could get any use out of them would be by wading in there and then and taking them away. Clearly the owners of chainstores and supermarkets weren't going to be doing that themselves. Treating that kind of thing as "looting" is bizarre and wrongheaded.

"Looting" is taking things that continue to have value to their owners or to the community - the stuff in people's homes above the water level, artworks in museums. Money in bank vaults even.

Wasting effort on trying to stop people clearing the stores of stuff that was going to waste (setting aside a special case like looting from gun stores, where the stuff taken was itself a threat to public safety) just doesn't make sense, even if such efforts were not also a distraction from the important things that needed to be done, especially rescuing people, and looking after them.

I think much of what we have been given about "looting" and I suspect a lot more has a strong lement of spin, an effort to divert attenmtion from other things, and to make it easier for people to distance themselves from human tragedy by implying that somehow this community was different and dysfunctional and the architect of its own problems. There appears to be evidence that a lot of selective rumnour amplification has been going on, and that some of the rumours directly interfered with rescue efforts.
..................
And I agree with Joe and others about Kirsten Anderberg missing the way this place works, and being overhasty in her judgements. And I say that on the basis of agreeing with much of what she has actually written. But I'd much sooner see a discussion contnuing about the actual issues rather than about that side of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 02:30 PM

Kirsten finishs her article with the words -

"You know what is happening, what are you going to do about it?"

I'll ask Kirsten the same question. Other than composing articles in Seattle what are you planning to do to help those displaced by Katrina ? Speaking as one "redneck" Mudcatter - We have several thousand people from New Orleans that have ended up in Ft Worth Texas. Our food bank has gone into action and the local cities and churches have provided for those that have been sent here. They will have food , clothing, a place to stay and access to services so they can relocate and/or be reconnected with their loved ones.

I'm involved. Are you ? In the time it takes to compose your articles you could be halfway to Ft Worth. Our food bank needs help desperatly. Please contact http://www.tafb.org/ for ways you can help. If you don't mind rubbing elbows with us rednecks.

Let me rephrase that in Kirstens own writing style :

I'm INVOLVED. Are YOU ? In the TIME it takes to COMPOSE your articles YOU could be HALFWAY to Ft Worth. Our FOODBANK needs help DESPERATELY. Please CONTACT http://www.tafb.org/ for WAYS you CAN help. IF you don't MIND rubbing ELBOWS with us REDNECKS.


So Kirsten - see you soon ?

Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: GUEST,.
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 01:39 PM

Esentially, the orders to "shoot to kill" free up the unit's restriction on the engagement of hostiles. Ironic that it's pretty much the only measure taken so far to bypass red tape while FEMA and other organizations argue at the top over operational control.

It means convoys cannot be stopped by a single person a la Tienamen Square. They can shoot him/her and proceed. If I was coming off the line and shoved on the convoy with a weapons free order, you'd bet I'd shoot you too if you jumped on my truck.

The problem is that you're trying to marry law and compassion into a single entity. No such beast exists, either you uphold law and order or you don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: greg stephens
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 12:28 PM

Kirsten recommends the looting of people's property as a kind of therapeatic amusement. On a personal/politics connection, does she apply this principle to fellow Mudcatter Poppagator's Martin D-18 guitar? he's worried about, not unnaturally, in case someone has nicked it while he's out of his house. Personally, I would share his worry. Now I think Poppagator's got a right to his own guitar. Kirsten doesnt. That's the difference between us.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 12:19 PM

Kirstenanderberg, in all her righteous indignation, claimed:

So you explain to me why these victims of blatant racism should not just take this stuff. It makes absolutely no sense. It is clear that NO ONE was going to be hurt by the "looting" of those stores.

Not so.

Kirsten talks about tax write-offs. That's all very fine, but tax write-offs are only good for a percentage of the value corresponding to the taxpayer's top tax rate. They help dull the pain.

And who do you think pays for other damage? The insurance companies do. Now I know that insurance companies are not normally high on the list of everyone's favorite soft-spot. People say, "Oh, they're rich! They can afford it!" The "they" who will be hurt will not be (in the first instance, at least) management, but it will be stockholders, and also all future insureds in the property insurance business. You know that the insurance companies are going to raise rates to try to recoup some of their losses. Even though insurance companies normally have what amounts to insurance with other insurance companies which helps in the case of a large loss, in this case it's nearly the whole property insurance industry. I would not be surprised to see some substantial insurance companies going bankrupt out of this hurricane damage.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 11:19 AM

Gee, Kristen almost makes the death sentence for stealing sound like a bad thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 10:52 AM

That may be so, Rapaire, but when we hear official announcements that troops and police officers are being sent to the area "with orders to shoot to kill," it does make you wonder just a bit just how well the old rules are going to stand up in this brave new world. Remember the days when the "rule" was that our country only went to war against a country that deliberately attacked us?

I also agree with much of what Kirsten says in her article, and also find her diatribes against "rednecks" distasteful. Just as in music, turning up the volume often leads to more distortion and less dissemination.

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: Rapparee
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 09:02 AM

To get back to the "death sentence" for a "damaged TV":

Did this happen? Was someone shot dead for stealing a damaged television?

I have heard several interviews with Gulf Coast cops -- in New Orleans and Mississippi -- who deliberately let people taking food, water, and other essentials pass unheeded. As one said, "As long as they're taking what they need we won't do anything."

As for the National Guard, I've been there. Ain't nobody gonna shoot anyone who hasn't shot at you first. One of the first and most rigid rules is that you only -- ONLY!!! -- respond with deadly force when deadly force has been used against you. (If you doubt this, consider Kent State: yes, it was a coverup. And it is used as an example in riot training of what happens when command and control break down and "massed unit fire" is wrongly used.) Even during the riots of the '60s, in Detroit and LA and Chicago, I have never heard of a substantiated case where a looter was shot dead simply for looting. For other reasons, yes; in response to real or imagined gunfire, yes. But not for simply taking a television or anything else.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 08:38 AM

I'm tempted to say that people get the governments they deservs, but that would be unfair to many Americans including Mudcat friends. There is of course the other way of looking at it, nobody BUT nobody ever did anything wrong enough to deserve George Walker Bush.
G...

Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: kendall
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 07:56 AM

An eye for an eye means just that. It does NOT mean a life for a friggin' tv set!
Has anyone noticed that the worst presidents have all been republicans?

1. Harding (Teapot Dome scandal and total incompetent)
   
2. Useless S. Grant (Too many crooks to name)
   
3. Nixon and Agnew (Nuff said)
   
4. Reagan - lies and more lies, Iran-Contra, Arms for hostages) trillions added to the debt after his promise to balance the budget, in 8 years he never even SUBMITTED a balanced budget)
   
5. And now, Alfred E Newman picking guitar while New Orleans disappears in the flood he could have prevented if he hadn't slashed funding for levee repairs.

Is America asleep, or has she been drugged?

Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: Big Mick
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 07:03 AM

First off, I have tried to gently let you know that your methods put folks off. I am sure you and I share many beliefs, but I am getting a bit tired of your self aggrandizing style. You seem to want to lecture us instead of have a discussion. Your cut and paste threads seem to be saying, "Look at me, see how brilliant I am". And when folks disagree or want to discuss (discussion forum, get it??) you attack them and make a sweeping condemnation of the forum as a bunch of rednecks. I think you might have much to offer, I just don't know if its worth the effort to get it out of the ground.

I am furious over the response to this tragedy, and the deaths cause by the inaction and incompetency of the administration.

BTW, which accredited law school did you attend?

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 04:27 AM

Of course it applies to many people, Giok. Yes, there are lots of people here who forget they're dealing with their fellow human beings. Makes it hard to have a decent discussion around here, with all this name-calling and finger-pointing. And yes, there is one crazed stalker here who collects every word I post. Heck, he quotes me more than I quote myself.

And I do agree with Kirsten that there has been a lot of racism connected with the response or lack of response to the disaster. My mother-in-law listens to the talk shows and gets a steady stream of that bigotry, blaming poor people for not being able to get out of the way of the hurricane. I feel like getting my mother-in-law a radio that plays only FM.

But yeah, Kirsten needs to learn that this isn't a place for paste-and-run posting, especially if it's dumping lots of words in multiple threads in rapid succession. Nothing wrong with her expressing her ideas, as far as I can see - but her ideas this evening could have been expressed in one new thread, not three.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 04:14 AM

Sorry Joe but doesn't your last paragraph apply to several people? Perhaps if you are lucky you will it italicised and lurking between quotation marks before too long!!
Giok ¦¬]

Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 04:05 AM

You know, Kirsten, if you'd drop all the propaganda and have a balanced exchange of ideas with people, you might find most people around here will agree with you - to a point. But if you include them in sweeping condemnations, you're being just as bigoted as the bigots you condemn.

I've given you slack on your posts because they appear to be your own - the usual limit is one (large) screen of text for non-music articles. But yes, the expectation is that you engage in a discussion on a civil basis - not just paste and run. Whether it's your own or not, you can't just dump words here and leave. You have to engage in the give-and-take of discussion.

You have a lot of worthwhile ideas to express - but so have many other people. Why not try to persuade them to see things your way, instead of simply condemning them as bigots because they disagree with you on some points?

And in general, the idea is to participate in existing discussions, not just start a new thread every time you want to post a diatribe. That's why I moved your "Only Whites Claim Katrina's Poor Response is NOT Racist" article to the previous thread you started on racism in the aftermath of Katrina. I deleted the second thread you started with that same article - the article is already here once. As the FAQ says, if you're starting more than one thread per day, you're probably starting too many.

So, settle down and join the discussion. Remember that the people here are your fellow human beings - treat them with the respect you'd like to receive yourself.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 03:50 AM

I suggest that Kirsten is using Mudcat as platform to proselytise us to her personal agenda, as Joe has said this is a discussion board and primarily a folk and blues orientated site. I feel therefore that her diatribes fall outwith the loose boundaries of this site,and as such I wish she would use some other site [and I bet she does] to spread her propaganda. There are blog sites available and I suggest she avails herself of their facilities, and leaves us to do what we do best. I don't know about anybody else but I don't need my conscience raising it is high enough already, and my opinions are not formed on the basis of partisan rantings.
Giok