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Licensing Bill moves on -OUR FUTURE

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The Shambles 04 Jul 03 - 06:57 AM
BanjoRay 04 Jul 03 - 07:05 AM
GUEST 04 Jul 03 - 07:12 AM
The Shambles 04 Jul 03 - 07:14 AM
The Shambles 04 Jul 03 - 07:23 AM
The Shambles 04 Jul 03 - 01:16 PM
The Shambles 05 Jul 03 - 11:45 AM
The Shambles 08 Jul 03 - 05:54 AM
Richard Bridge 08 Jul 03 - 06:35 AM
DMcG 08 Jul 03 - 07:15 AM
nickp 08 Jul 03 - 07:52 AM
McGrath of Harlow 08 Jul 03 - 08:15 AM
The Barden of England 08 Jul 03 - 09:40 AM
The Shambles 08 Jul 03 - 10:16 AM
The Barden of England 08 Jul 03 - 10:52 AM
Richard Bridge 08 Jul 03 - 12:52 PM
McGrath of Harlow 08 Jul 03 - 01:05 PM
The Shambles 08 Jul 03 - 01:21 PM
Richard Bridge 08 Jul 03 - 03:33 PM
McGrath of Harlow 08 Jul 03 - 07:15 PM
McGrath of Harlow 08 Jul 03 - 07:24 PM
McGrath of Harlow 08 Jul 03 - 07:25 PM
The Shambles 08 Jul 03 - 09:28 PM
The Barden of England 09 Jul 03 - 02:38 AM
ET 09 Jul 03 - 02:38 AM
The Shambles 09 Jul 03 - 05:20 AM
DMcG 09 Jul 03 - 05:24 AM
The Shambles 09 Jul 03 - 06:29 AM
McGrath of Harlow 09 Jul 03 - 06:49 AM
The Barden of England 09 Jul 03 - 07:17 AM
Richard Bridge 09 Jul 03 - 10:01 AM
DMcG 09 Jul 03 - 10:57 AM
The Shambles 09 Jul 03 - 01:20 PM
The Shambles 09 Jul 03 - 01:34 PM
McGrath of Harlow 09 Jul 03 - 01:36 PM
The Shambles 09 Jul 03 - 01:37 PM
The Shambles 09 Jul 03 - 01:45 PM
Richard Bridge 09 Jul 03 - 02:54 PM
McGrath of Harlow 09 Jul 03 - 02:55 PM
McGrath of Harlow 09 Jul 03 - 02:59 PM
DMcG 09 Jul 03 - 03:10 PM
The Shambles 09 Jul 03 - 04:00 PM
McGrath of Harlow 09 Jul 03 - 04:58 PM
Richard Bridge 10 Jul 03 - 05:00 AM
The Shambles 10 Jul 03 - 07:22 AM
ET 10 Jul 03 - 07:51 AM
The Shambles 10 Jul 03 - 12:37 PM
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Subject: RE: Licensing Bill moves on -OUR FUTURE
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Jul 03 - 06:57 AM

This appears online but it was not in the edition that I purchased - not too sure where they got the idea that a string quartet would be exempt? Unless of course they are playing for a Morris side to dance to?

I'm thinking to form a side called Vivaldi Morris - any takers?

Can we see the time when every performance of any kind of music is accompanied by Morris dancers? The mind boggles.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/guardianpolitics/story/0,3605,991269,00.html

Peers give up music licence fight

Sarah Hall, political correspondent
Friday July 4, 2003
The Guardian


Pubs, clubs and cafes will have to apply for entertainment licences for any form of amplified live music, after peers failed yesterday to defeat the government over the bitterly fought proposals.
Morris dancers and unamplified ensembles such as string quartets will not have to overcome this bureaucratic hurdle.

But the measures will affect 90% of all performances and could act as a powerful deterrent to small venues wishing to host live groups.

The moves were pushed through last night after Liberal Democrat peers, satisfied the government had made sufficient concessions as they wrangled over the licensing bill, failed to back their Tory colleagues in insisting on an exemption for live music at "small events", meaning those catering for audiences of 200 or fewer people.

Despite defeating the government 10 times over the bill, Tory peers yesterday failed to insist on the measures by 145 votes to 75.

Eager to avoid a "ping-pong" situation, in which the bill would go back and forth to the Commons and ultimately get lost if the peers refused to accept it, the government promised a review of the effects of the legislation within 12 months of implementation.

"If it proves the bill has had an unintended, disproportionate, negative effect on the provision of live music, we will use powers already in the bill to modify the position through secondary legislation," said the junior culture minister, Lord McIntosh of Haringey.

But Lord McIntosh refused to back down on the small venue exemption, on grounds of crime and disorder, and public safety, saying: "We are simply not prepared to put lives at risk. No responsible government could act otherwise." There had been more than 1,500 fires in pubs and clubs in England and Wales in 2001.

The licensing bill, which allows 24-hour drinking for the first time in 90 years, was a Labour manifesto commitment, designed to create a more family-friendly culture.

Critics say the legislation has loopholes since it exempts wide-screen pub televisions, standup comedians and sword swallowers, but not live musicians. Issues of health and safety, noise, and fire risk, are already covered in other laws, they stress.

The Conservative spokeswoman, Lady Buscombe, insisted: "The bill continues to penalise those who play live music by imposing extra bureaucracy and financial burdens... ministers clearly regard the playing of live music in local communities as a potential danger rather than a cultural and social benefit."

A spokesman for the Musicians Union, which has argued that small venues will be deterred from holding gigs because of the "draconian" bureaucracy, said the bill reflected "archaic attitudes".


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Subject: RE: Licensing Bill moves on -OUR FUTURE
From: BanjoRay
Date: 04 Jul 03 - 07:05 AM

If the Guardian didn't like the proposed legislation they should have bloody well written about it a few times instead of more or less ignoring the whole debate.
Cheers
Ray


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Subject: RE: Licensing Bill moves on -OUR FUTURE
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 03 - 07:12 AM

So if there is a complete exemption for morris dancing and any music integral to the performance, if we want to play any folk music in unlicensed premises, surely we just have to make sure that we are accompanied by a few hanky wavers and pretend we were just accompanying them?


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Subject: RE: Licensing Bill moves on -OUR FUTURE
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Jul 03 - 07:14 AM

Click on the following for the full Lords Debate.

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld199900/ldhansrd/pdvn/lds03/text/30703-16.htm#30703-16_head0


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Subject: RE: Licensing Bill moves on -OUR FUTURE
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Jul 03 - 07:23 AM

Click on the following for the full Lords Debate.

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld199900/ldhansrd/pdvn/lds03/text/30703-16.htm#30703-16_head0


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Subject: RE: Licensing Bill moves on -OUR FUTURE
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Jul 03 - 01:16 PM

Events have moved on but the Bill is now due to be ratified on 17 July.

As the dust settles - perhaps we can all assemble here and work out if we are mourning - celebrating or just planning for the future.

These are the words that I have been requested to send for inclusion in the Rally programme.

Action for Music http://actionformusic.cjb.net - The Musicians' Union and many others have been campaigning against measures contained in the Government's Licensing Bill that are damaging to LIVE MUSIC.

These concerns were echoed when an E petition containing 110,000 signatures was recently presented to 10 Downing St. However the Government are not listening to reason - despite this popular concern and the many defeats inflicted on the Bill by the House of Lords.

These measures threaten the right of freedom of expression, employment prospects and the benefit that music making and dance brings to us all. Including measures that will mean that a piano alone - as an entertainment facility - will be illegal on premises without an additional licence for it!

Thanks to the TUC for inviting concerned performers from all over the UK to perform and contribute here at The Tolpuddle Martyrs Rally. The the idea is to simply to bring attention to the threat presented to live music - by the Licensing Bill's illogical, inconsistent and unfair measures.

Please see the Musicians' Union website for more details.


http://www.musiciansunion.org.uk/articles/welcome.shtml


The Tolpuddle Martyrs Rally
Friday 18 Saturday 19 and Sunday 20 July 2003.
Tolpuddle village
Dorset
Off the A35 just east of Dorchester.

The following site has the following details + a map
http://www.tuc.org.uk/the_tuc/tuc-6486-f0.cfm

All events free [except Writing on the wall with Tony Benn and Roy Bailey £10 Saturday 7pm..

Friday 18 July

Camping contact South West TUC to book your pitch £20 per pitch
SW TUC Church House, Church Rd, Filton, Bristol BS34 7BD

8pm The Martyrs Marquee
Come all yesession. An evening of singing songs, old and new. Whether you sing, play and instrument or just hum along, get down and join in.
Licensed bar and food on sale.

Saturday 19 July
From noon onwards:

Singer-songwriter sessions in the Tolpuddle village hall.
Fiddles, banjos, whistles traditional music in the Martyrs Inn
Sing/around session in the Festival Beer tent
Radical choirs singing in the Martyrs Marquee
Plus the Tolpuddle Summers School discuss current issues facing the Trade Union Movement
Details to be announced nearer to the time.

7pm The Martyrs Marquee
Writing on the wall The renowned double act of Roy Bailey and Tony Benn host an unforgettable session of song and spoken word. This show will be over-subscribed four times over buy you ticket now and something to tell your grandchildren! Admission £10.

Followed by Reggae Revolution music to get jiggy to.

Alternative free entertainment for children with the Monster Massive Kids Ceildh.

Sunday 20 July

Main stage

11.45 Nick Harper singer/songwriter simultaneously steeped in tradition yet completely contemporary he deserves to become a major figue..Robin Denslow, The Guardian.

12.00 Susan Hedges- Blind since birth, a 17 year old with an amazing voice and talented song writer. Another act that is destined for great things, with a set thats hard to define Country? Folk? Rock? Doesnt matter shes great.

12.45 Guest speakers including Nigel De Gruchy TUC President.

1.15 Eric Bogle legendary Australian singer-songwriter on tour in the UK. His songs have gone around the world and been covered by just about everybody. Now hear the man himself.

2.00 Dedication of the Parade with John Ellis secretary for Business and Economic Affairs of the Methodist Church.

2.05 MusiciansUnion Great Western Marching Jazz Band

2.15 The Parade of banners. Up off your backsides and join in the procession through the village, accompanied by a brass band, The Musicians Union Marching Jazz Band, and a samba band you wont have been on many marches with this music!

3.00 Phoenix Brass (Crewkerne)

3.45 Billy Bragg local resident and Tolpuddle aficionado, the man for all seasons and all campaigns. Enjoy his inimitable mix of songs to rouse the rabble and soothe the fevered brow.

4.30 Pato Banton and the Reggae Revolution.

5.00 Martyrs Day service in the Methodist Chapel with Rt Hon Paul Boateng MP, Chief Secretary to the Treasury .


Plus on the Martyrs Marquee stage, there is a full programme of entertainment in a slightly more restful mode, with Socialist and radical choirs from around the UK, and laid back jazz, plus lots of stalls and kids stuff.


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Subject: RE: Licensing Bill moves on -OUR FUTURE
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 Jul 03 - 11:45 AM

URGENT

The following from Hamish Birchall.


When the Licensing Act 2003 is finally published, Secretary of State Tessa Jowell has to make a statement on the front of the Act that it is, in her view, compatible with the European Convention on Human Rights.

Personally, I cannot see how the Act is compatible with musicians' right to freedom of expression. How can it be proportionate that even unamplified solo performance remains illegal unless licensed, but you can pack 'em in with big screens and a powerful PA?

The Joint Committee on Human Rights is to consider the Licensing Bill a final time. It may still make a difference to write to the JCHR at: jchr@parliament.uk

If it is of any help, here is a copy of the submission I have put in today:

~ ~ ~

FAO    Paul Evans, Clerk to the JCHR
          Prof. David Feldman
          Lord Lester of Herne Hill
          JCHR Members
          John F Smith, Musicians' Union General Secretary
          Horace Trubridge, Central London Branch Secretary, MU
          Keith Ames, MU Communications Officer
From    Hamish Birchall, Musicians' Union adviser - PEL reform

Dear Mr Evans


I would be grateful if you would make this email available to the Committee as soon as possible.

Once ratified by the House of Commons, the Licensing Bill should go on to receive Royal Assent. Secretary of State Tessa Jowell will make a declaration on the face of the Licensing Act 2003 that it is in her view compatible with the ECHR.

However, I do not see how the Bill can be declared compatible with rights under Article 10.1 of the ECHR. There may also be incompatibility with rights under Article 8. The following will explain my reasoning:

Last Thursday (03 July) during debate in the House of Lords, the Government made a concession in the form of an amendment exempting 'a performance of morris dancing or any dancing of a similar nature or a performance of unamplified, live music as an integral part of such a performance...' (Amendment 62L).

While grateful for further concessions, this exemption leads to more anomalies and further undermines the government's argument that entertainment licensing is a justifiable interference with performers' right to freedom of expression under Article 10.2. For example, under the Bill as now amended it would be a criminal offence to organise, say, a public piano recital in a library or even your own home, unless first licensed. However, if the pianist were to accompany folk dancers, the event would be exempt.

Customers in a bar swaying rhythmically to a performance by one musician, could, on the other hand, lead to a licensee facing heavy fines and a jail sentence - unless the venue were licensed for the provision of these regulated entertainments.

Also last Thursday, the Government made concessions for unamplified live music in places used for the supply and consumption of alcohol (see Amendments 62B through to 62J). The provision of both unamplified and amplified live music in such places remaind illegal unless licensed; however, the licence conditions are restricted.

It is rather difficult to interpret these amendments of amendments, but having now checked with the DCMS, it seems Lord Phillips of Sudbury was correct in pointing out during the debate that the concession for amplified and unamplified live music in pubs is totally contradictory.

The amendments appear to mean that a bar licensed for amplified live music will not, initially, be subject to noise conditions and, if granted 24-hour opening, the music could go on all night.

This is quite obviously incompatible with residents' rights to a quiet night's sleep under Article 8 of the ECHR. However, a pub licensed only for unamplified live music has a performance time constraint: performance is prohibited between midnight and 8am.

I would add some comments about three of the four licensing objectives:

Public safety
The Government justifies its position with repeated claims about the inadequacy of public safety and fire safety legislation where entertainment is provided, even at the smallest scale.

Yet the Government has never produced any evidence from a qualified authority setting out how this legislation is deficient such that entertainment licensing is the only means to ensure public safety. Indeed, in their statements Government Ministers appear to have relied on uncorroborated assertions made by unqualified civil servants within the DCMS.

By contrast, the Musicians' Union, together with the Arts Council, has provided at least two detailed reports by a lawyer with health and safety expertise, and one statement from a former Home Office entertainment safety expert, to the effect that existing legislation is indeed adequate to allow an exemption for small-scale performance.

Furthermore, senior officials at the Local Authority Unit of the Health and Safety Executive confirmed last week that risks arising from trailing cables, for example, should be covered in workplaces irrespective of licensing. (I attach the email response from the official concerned.) Officials at the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister, the Department responsible for the new fire safety laws due to come into force in 2004, have also said that under the new fire safety laws licence conditions should not be necessary (contact Andy Jack, ODPM: 020 7944 6632).

Noise
The Committee will be aware by now that there is no evidence of a significant noise problem caused by live music. The overwhelming majority of noise complaints associated with pubs and clubs are caused by noisy people outside.

There are in addition very strong powers available to local authorities and the police to deal with noise emanating from within bars and pubs etc, although it is probably true that there are inadequate resources with which to implement these powers.

Throughout this debate the Government notably avoided mention of the noise data and comment provided by the MU (from the Noise Abatement Society, UK Noise Association, Residents' Associations in Soho and Covent Garden, Institute of Alcohol Studies and so on).

Earlier in the year the DCMS instead selectively and inaccurately quoted from an unpublished document by the Institute of Acoustics, not even identifying the title, in a manner which suggested that live music was top of the list of sources of complaint.

The President of the IoA subsequently wrote to Tessa Jowell objecting to the way in which their publication had been used without their permission. The IoA document, the 'Good Practice Guide on the Control of Noise from Pubs and Clubs', was finally published in March 2003. It does list noise from amplified and unamplified music as a source of complaint, but it also states:

'Noise disturbance can also arise from televised sporting events, which are often relayed at high volume and can be accompanied by patrons cheering, shouting and singing.' [p5, para 3.4]

That sentence was present in the draft IoA document quoted by the DCMS, and yet it did not appear in the DCMS publications and letters sent to MPs and the public concerning the purpose of and justification for the entertainment licensing provisions in the Licensing Bill.

Crime and disorder
Again, during last week's debate, Government Minister Lord McIntosh put forward the following justification for licensing live music:
'... because of public concern over drugs, guns and extreme right-wing bands who excite the audience to racist violence as part of their act.'

It is perhaps significant that this rather dramatic announcement should be made at the 11th hour of the licensing debate. The issues raised are of course matters of serious concern, but it is hard to understand how such problems relate to chamber musicians performing in libraries and other public places, or folk musicians in bars, who are also caught by the licensing regime.

In fact, ACPO's representative on the Licensing Advisory Group has confirmed that most of the problems described by Lord McIntosh occur in premises that are already licensed for entertainment. The Government has provided no evidence of any crime and disorder associated with the two performer exemption in licensed premises, or from private events raising money for charity or any of the other currently exempt events.

On the other hand, the police made written representations to the DCMS last November stating that televised sporting events are 'quite frequently a source of disorder' and should therefore be declared on the operating schedules that must accompany licence applications. Only licensable entertainments are required to be declared on these schedules.

Conclusion

On 26 June 2003, Richard Caborn, the new Culture Minister with responsibility for licensing, wrote a letter to Dennis Skinner MP explaining, among other things, why the Government exempted public places of religious worship:

'The approach set out in the Licensing Bill reflects the current exemption for places of public religious worship in relation to the provision of music outside Greater London, and at the same time brings Greater London within this exemption, thereby removing the artificial geographical distinction currently drawn in this aspect of the licensing regime.

This approach has been approved by both Houses of Parliament. To remove this exemption without any evidence of a public interest reason to do so would, in our view, raise issues concerning the compatibility of the provisions with the right to freedom of expression under Article 10 of the European Convention on Human Rights and would appear to be contary to the public interest.'
[Richard Caborn to Dennis Skinner, 26 June 2003, ref: CO3/04325/02468/mk. My emphasis]

Mr Caborn's argument could equally be applied to other current PEL exemptions. The Government has provided no evidence of 'a public interest reason' to abolish the 'two in a bar' exemption, or any other existing entertainment licensing exemption. In the absence of such evidence, or indeed any credible argument that small-scale performance which finishes at a reasonable hour requires entertainment licensing, the increased licensing control proposed in the Licensing Bill has surely no legitimate basis.

The reference to an 'artificial geographical distinction' is also significant. Account must therefore be taken of the situation in Scotland, where exactly the same safety and noise laws apply as in England and Wales. In bars and other places licensed for the sale and consumption of alcohol in Scotland no entertainment licence for live music is required provided the music is secondary to the main business, and finishes within 'permitted hours'.

The DCMS has claimed that Scotland is different because licensing boards have powers to impose conditions. But licensing justices in England and Wales have similar powers (under s.4 of the Licensing Act 1964). According to Jack Cummins, editor of 'Scottish Licensing - Law and Practice', no prior conditions have ever been applied to the provision of live music in this context in Scotland.

I would be grateful if the Committee would consider whether, in view of the above, it is appropriate for the Bill to be declared compatible with rights under Article 10.1 of the ECHR.

Yours sincerely

Hamish Birchall


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Subject: RE: Licensing Bill moves on -OUR FUTURE
From: The Shambles
Date: 08 Jul 03 - 05:54 AM

a) a performance of morris dancing or any dancing of a similar nature or a performance of unamplified, live music as an integral part of such a performance, or
(b) facilities for enabling persons to take part in entertainment of a description falling within paragraph (a)."


No one is doubting that the playing of a folk tune, is an integral part of such a performance. So the playing of such a tune anywhere by any number of musicans is not regulated entertainment.

Does it say that the dancing actually has to be taking place? Or just that a performance of tunes that are unamplified, live music (that would be as an integral part of such a performance) is not regulated entertainment?

Or even a piano provided for such a purpose should not be regulated and require a licence?


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Subject: RE: Licensing Bill moves on -OUR FUTURE
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Jul 03 - 06:35 AM

No. The unamplified music has to be part of the performance of dance to be exempt. If the dance is not going on, the music can't be an integral part of it.


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Subject: RE: Licensing Bill moves on -OUR FUTURE
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Jul 03 - 07:15 AM

Even the piano is a bit iffy. You could argue that the piano is in the pub in case morris dancers turn up and it is solely provided for that purpose. However, few morris dancers carry a piano around with them, so your chances of getting away with it are slim.

(I see a new role for EFDSS here as the Government's arbiter of whether something is or in not a morris dance..)


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Subject: RE: Licensing Bill moves on -OUR FUTURE
From: nickp
Date: 08 Jul 03 - 07:52 AM

So me - as solo musician - playing through a 10 watt battery amp for an appalachian clogging team will get the 'Go to Jail' card ??!!!


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Subject: RE: Licensing Bill moves on -OUR FUTURE
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jul 03 - 08:15 AM

I think most people who aren't involved in folk music would call Appalachian clogging "dancing of a similar nature" to Morris. True enough, the amp would put you over the limit technically, even if yoiu were a lot quieter than an unampliofied player with aloudere instrument.

That's the kind of anomaly that should sink the bastards sooner or later under Human Rights provisions.


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Subject: RE: Licensing Bill moves on -OUR FUTURE
From: The Barden of England
Date: 08 Jul 03 - 09:40 AM

I think mudcat has the answer for a few of us. I'm going to, as usual, send my e-mail shot to let people know about the jam session I hold every third friday, and also push it on the Mudcat - but seeing as it's not 'advertised', I think I might be able to get away with the 'incidental' clause. What's your thoughts on that one?


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Subject: RE: Licensing Bill moves on -OUR FUTURE
From: The Shambles
Date: 08 Jul 03 - 10:16 AM

a) a performance of morris dancing or any dancing of a similar nature or a performance of unamplified, live music as an integral part of such a performance, or
(b) facilities for enabling persons to take part in entertainment of a description falling within paragraph (a)."


Richard you are the lawyer and I am not. But surely to place the interpretation you state for it - it should read?

a performance of morris dancing or any dancing of a similar nature AND a performance of unamplified, live music as an integral part of such a performance, or.........

The use of the word OR gives three different - if connected activities that do not require the licence?


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Subject: RE: Licensing Bill moves on -OUR FUTURE
From: The Barden of England
Date: 08 Jul 03 - 10:52 AM

It seems to me that 'as an integral part of such a performance' means just that - the performance being 'a performance of morris dancing etc. etc.'


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Subject: RE: Licensing Bill moves on -OUR FUTURE
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Jul 03 - 12:52 PM

John you are right on "incidental" and I think any other interpretation is just wishful thinking.

Your Friday sessions are a different kettle of fish. Howells of course said if things were advertised or regular, then they were not "incidental". Fairly recently it became permissible to refer to Hansard to help to determine the meaning of legislature, but only if the legislature was itself unclear(!) and even then only if the ministerial utterance in Handsard was clear(!!). Whatever else is clear (or not) it is fairly clear that whatever Howells says is usually unclear.

Conversely, by the Human Rights Act (s 3(1)), it is now the law that "SO FAR AS IT IS POSSIBLE TO DO SO (my emphasis) primary legislation and secondary legislation must be read and given effect ina way which is compatible with Convention rights". I think Howells may have overlooked this so let's hope he does not read this before it is too late to slip in another amendment tonight!

Freedom of expression is not an absolute right under teh Convention. It may be subject to restrictions (etc) "that are necessary in a democratic society (case law says that this means a pressing social need must be shown) in the interests of ...public safety...the prevention of disorder or crime, [or] for ...the protection of health or morals..." Case law also says it must be proportionate.

Your session is unamplified (unless Clive turns up with his keyboard), sort of lurks in the back of the pub behind the bar and is not very visible or audible from the front of the bar.

If it hypothetically were licensable (ie not incidental) I have some difficulty seeing what pressing social need could be shown, and how making it illegal could be proportionate.

Therefore, subject always to the rule that ventilation here is not solicitor client advice and no liability is accepted (etc) I am of the view that so long as you do not advertise, even if your session is regular, it would be incidental - but these are quite special facts. It also does not mean that the Council will not take the contrary view.


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Subject: RE: Licensing Bill moves on -OUR FUTURE
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jul 03 - 01:05 PM

Remember even when it's been passed it doesn't take effect immediately. The situation so far as John Barden's Friuday sessions will be unchanged for the time being - ie, they are probably in breach of the law, big deal.

So far as what "dancing of a similar nature" will actually mean if it ever gets to court, we just don't know. After all, if moving you reet rhythmically in time to the music counts as dancing, as has been asserted by councils trying to clamp down on music, and the players are stomping their feet as they play, which most of us do anyway, and the music they are playing is simlar to thatsued by Morris Dancers and such, all that could arguably add up to "dancing of a similar nature".


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Subject: RE: Licensing Bill moves on -OUR FUTURE
From: The Shambles
Date: 08 Jul 03 - 01:21 PM

We know what the intention of the amendment was, I am just questioning if in law, the words used actually mean that. It is hardly wishful thinking either - for I rather hope that the words do reflect the intention.

I am looking for reason and logic and we are led to expect to find that in the legal profession. I am assuming that the draftspersons know the difference between the meaning of the words AND and OR and have used the words they have for a reason. Or have they cocked-up?


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Subject: RE: Licensing Bill moves on -OUR FUTURE
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Jul 03 - 03:33 PM

No. It means what it says. If it said "and" you would have to have music for the Morris dance to be exempt.

And No - subject to the Human Rights Act, tapping your feet to a morris tune is in no way similar to Morris dance.

Or am I missing an attempt at humour?

And yes, JOhn is illegal until the new law takes effect but the lnadlord carries the can back. S 134 as interpreted in accordance with the interpretation provisions set out his position after that.


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Subject: RE: Licensing Bill moves on -OUR FUTURE
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jul 03 - 07:15 PM


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Subject: RE: Licensing Bill moves on -OUR FUTURE
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jul 03 - 07:24 PM

This is a longish poist, though not that long, and there seems some problem posting it - so I'll try doing it in a couple of sections:

Not an attempt at humour, Richard, if that implies that it isn't meant seriously. Of course it's absurd, but the law in question is absurd.

We have been told by local authorities following legal advice that moving rhythmically in time with the music counts as dancing. If it's folk music, that means it is folk dancing. Whether that similarity with other forms of folk dancing such as Morris is close enough for the exemption to kick in is something we still have to find out.

But Morris is not just ensemble dancing. Nor is it necessary for dancers to be in costume - it is common practice for teams who are short a few dancers to rope in dancers in street clothes. And scratch Morris sides all in street clothes are commonly seen in festivals and so forth.


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Subject: RE: Licensing Bill moves on -OUR FUTURE
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jul 03 - 07:25 PM

Fit Two:

I would think it highly likely that "dancing of a similar nature" would cover Sword Dancers and Rapper Dancers and Garland Dancers, as well as oddities like the Bacup Coconut Dancers. Quite how far it would stretch we still have to find out.

I would definitely think it should cover step dancers, such as in this tradition. Step dancers often play an instrument while dancing - and when they sit down to play they can be expected to continue to use their feet.

Any anyone who has ever seen La Bottine Souriante knows that the footwork of a seated musician can be a very central aspect of a performance.


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Subject: RE: Licensing Bill moves on -OUR FUTURE
From: The Shambles
Date: 08 Jul 03 - 09:28 PM

No. It means what it says. If it said "and" you would have to have music for the Morris dance to be exempt.

That is rather my point - you DO have to have music for the Morris dance to be exempt.

Because the music is already an such integral part of the Morris performance - dancing without the music would not really be a defined performance of Morris - to enable it to be exempt, would it?

My point is that whatever the intention - using the word OR instead of AND - could make them two different but equally exempt performances.

Even though Morris without the music is a practical if not a legal nonsense.


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Subject: RE: Licensing Bill moves on -OUR FUTURE
From: The Barden of England
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 02:38 AM

My session does not strictly comply with the law, but what the heck. At least we haven't so far had done to us what happened in Portland UK (one of my favourite places by the way). That was a travesty if ever there was one. How the killjoys live with themselves I just don't know.
My local Morris side dance to a tune called 'The Rambling Sailor', but it is done to voice only not instruments. Is the human voice considered a musical instrument I wonder?


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Subject: RE: Licensing Bill moves on -OUR FUTURE
From: ET
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 02:38 AM

Interesting though these arguments are the big problem is this - who is going to take these fine points - especially on human rights? remember it is not likely to be the Bacup Cloggers that are prosecuted. Even the most ardent Local Authority would be unlikely to want to prosecute the organisor of such event. Its hardly likely to come top of the pops in prosecution priorities. It would be the landlord who would be threatened first and he would stop the dancing because he would not want to risk having the expensive of defending his position with lawyers against a local authority with a bottomless pit of resource, Your Money!!

I think the way forward is twofold - continue the pressure - Richard is putting this on the Joint committee on Human Rights - continue to protest to MPS - I wrote again to Tony Mr Guitar Blair the other day - try to convince his officials to let him read it and not send it to DCMS.

This legislation has a built in "promise" from DCMS to review if it proves to be the disaster it looks likely to. DCMS is supposed to promote culture and tourism. Tourism in this country is so much in the doldrums that the Royal Family were trying to promote it recently.

And chat to your local Landlord. Convince him when he gets the forms to talk to you. Express clearly and precisely the sort of entertainment he needs so as far as possible to avoid antaganising the locals.

Most landlords have not received any information on the new Act. The local authorities generally have taken database records from the courts and ought to be writing to them soon.


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Subject: RE: Licensing Bill moves on -OUR FUTURE
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 05:20 AM

This morning - I received the following and puzzling message from my MP.........

you may be interested to know that last night the government gave in to pressure on all sides to allow acoustic music in pubs to be unlicensable, and it did the same for Morris dancing generally. Hope that helps.

Jim


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Subject: RE: Licensing Bill moves on -OUR FUTURE
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 05:24 AM

That sounds like the government believes it is giving the acoustic exemption it proposed to Lord Redesdale AND the morris exemption, rather than the morris exemption INSTEAD OF the acoustic exemption, which is what the Lords voted for. It seems they are confused as everyone else.

We will just have to see what happens today!


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Subject: RE: Licensing Bill moves on -OUR FUTURE
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 06:29 AM

I have replied to my MP as follows......

Dear Mr Knight

I would be grateful if you explained the process by which the Lords decision on the 3 July can be changed by the Government and for the details of how - what you state about acoustic music in pubs now being unlicensable in the Bill - is detailed?

Until you can do this - I would also be grateful if you would not provide this misinformation, in this form to any of your other constituents.

My understanding is that where it may be true that [thanks to efforts of the Lib Dem peers] Morris dancing is exempt - the same music, even non amplified and in or outside of pubs, played without the dancing - is not.

I would of course be most delighted if you were right and I were wrong - so perhaps you can come back to me ASAP and explain?


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Subject: RE: Licensing Bill moves on -OUR FUTURE
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 06:49 AM

It really is frightening to consider that these are the people in charge. How they manage to find their way to the House of Commons and back home again is amazing.


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Subject: RE: Licensing Bill moves on -OUR FUTURE
From: The Barden of England
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 07:17 AM

No wonder people ask for political asylum in this country, for it is obvious to all sentient beings that we have one called the Palace of Westminster. And yes - the lunatics are running it!


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Subject: RE: Licensing Bill moves on -OUR FUTURE
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 10:01 AM

At the moment even the DCMS is denying what they have done and saying that if conditions are put in a licence then they won't have to be complied with until the relevant regulated entertainment is provided - but I think they will apply generally (as a condition of the licence as such) and are only disapplied when thre relevant acoustic music or small event music is played. The difference of course is massive...


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Subject: RE: Licensing Bill moves on -OUR FUTURE
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 10:57 AM

I've just realised the Government has invented the game of 'Reverse Musical Chairs': A group of musicians accompany a morris side who at some point sit down unexpectedly and the musicians have to stop before it can be declared illegal!


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Subject: RE: Licensing Bill moves on -OUR FUTURE
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 01:20 PM

The difference of course is massive...

Why oh why this complicated fiasco? It would be laughable if it wasn't so serious.

All premises first have to have a Premises Licence and an have imposed safe capacity limit in order to apply and gain permission for entertainment to take place.

If these premises have a safe capacity limit of more than the limit - or do not have one imposed at all - then licensing conditions for all four of the Bill's objectives can be placed against the entertainment permission [the so-called tick box].

If the premises have a safe capacity limit that is less than the limit - although conditions on all four of the Bill's objectives can be placed against the enetrtainment permission - but only two of them can take effect.

But

Say the Premises Licence (which is subject to all four of the Bill's objectives and /or entertainment permission should be denied on the grounds of all four objectives - say loud music or whatever.

Although conditions that would allow non amplified muisic cannot be placed against the entertainment permission - if this permission were denied - there would be no entertainment permission conditions to disapply - so non amplified music is prevented where there are no grounds to do so.

And there is no way of enabling non amplified music (unless a Morris side is dancing to it) - for if is regular and not incidental, it must first have this entertainment permission.

I think this is 'Catch 22 / Schedule 1'.

What the DCMS/Lords/Commons appear to believe and are trying to tell us that non amplified music is safe (in small pubs only) because although a Premises Licence/safe capacity and entertainment permission will first be required - conditions relating to say noise will not kick-in for non amplified music.

Ignoring the very real the possibilty that the optional entertainment permission may not even be applied for and may be refused if it is.

In which case all non amplified music will have been prevented by the Bill in the 95% of currently licensed premises that could provide it now [as long as there were no more then two performers], if no entertainment permission under the Bill is applied for or if is refused.

And I am still trying to work out how all this will prevent in advance these amplified right-wing, gun promoting, punk heavy metal bands that the Chief Police Officer was so determined that a simple small events exemption from the licensing requirement would exposes us all to.....


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Subject: RE: Licensing Bill moves on -OUR FUTURE
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 01:34 PM

Hamish Birchall has sent the following to my MP and copied it to many others. The danger is that constiuents will be told that the Bill exempts non amplified music - when of course it does no such thing.

Jim

Except for unamplified live music integral to the performance of Morris dancing or dancing of a similar nature, the Government has not made an 11th hour licence exemption for unamplified live music in pubs or anywhere else. I hope you will do what you can to prevent that myth gaining ground on Labour backbenches and beyond.

Whether amplified or not, live music in pubs and bars remains illegal unless licensed, and still subject to potentially onerous conditions.

Clear Guidance for local authorities may militate against onerous conditions, but then again it may not. Local authorities tend to be very sure about what constitutes a 'necessary' condition. The only means to challenge a disputed condition - an appeal to magistrates, or judicial review - is costly and very time consuming, and likely to be beyond the means of smaller businesses.

What the Government has done is introduce a partial alleviation from certain licence conditions in small venues. The amendment is quite complex and difficult to interpret. Having talked it through with various people, including the licensing lawyer who advises both the MU and the Arts Council, this is my summary of what it means:

In all cases, to qualify for the concession, the permitted capacity must be 200 or fewer and a premises licence must already be in force authorising 'music entertainment'.
Music entertainment means the performance of live music or performance of dance.
The amendment also makes a key distinction between places used primarily for the consumption of alcohol and those that are not:

1    Premises used primarily for the supply of alcohol for consumption on the premises
This effectively means bars and pubs. The definition excludes restaurants, for example, libraries and hospitals, and any number of other potential venues for public performance.

If the bars or pubs qualify on the other criteria, and they provide performances of live amplified OR unamplified live music, licence conditions relating to noise or the protection of children from harm will 'not have effect' initially. They would have effect, however, if problems or complaints led to a review of the licence. The suspension of noise and protection of harm conditions would apply whenever such premises are open and providing the live music. This could be round the clock. However, safety and crime and disorder conditions would apply at all times.

2    Everywhere else
At other qualifying places such as restaurants, libraries, hospitals, public spaces, your front garden and so on, there is a wider concession, but only for unamplified music between 8am and midnight. In this case no licence conditions 'relating to the provision of the music entertainment' will have effect (subject to review, as above).

However, if such places wish to provide amplified live music at any time, or unamplified music between midnight and 8am they will be subject to the full range of licence conditions. Local authorities would also seem to be able to impose any condition that did not relate directly to the provision of the music entertainment, but which they could argue was 'necessary' to achieve any of the four licensing objectives.

Confused? I'm not surprised - this is now one of the most complex sections of the Bill.

3    Costs
Remember that in both sets of potential venues a premises licence authorising 'music entertainment' must be in force in the first place. Cost: one-off fee of £100-500, plus annual inspection fee of £50-150 where applicable, plus the application must be made at least 28 days in advance with fees up front (probably non-refundable), plus compliance costs of implementing 'necessary' safety/crime/disorder licence conditions where applicable.

4    Noise conditions inconsistent
Bars and pubs that open after midnight, particularly in towns and cities, are a major source of local residents' complaints, mostly about noisy people, but also noise breakout from within premises. And yet under the terms of the amendment they are exempt from noise conditions at any time (subject to review). By contrast, other places which may not sell any alcohol, and are not commonly associated with neighbour complaint, or anti-social behaviour, are subject to noise conditions after midnight.

5    What does it mean in practice?
As now, where pubs and bars are concerned, local authorities will be empowered to impose any condition relating to the provision of live music, amplified or not, which they consider 'necessary' for public safety and crime and disorder. If local authorities argue, as they have consistently in the past, that because live music attracts more people than usual the installation of more toilets is necessary (public safety), or door supervisors are needed (crime and disorder), the only way for the licence applicant to challenge the conditions will be via appeal to the Magistrates court, or application for judicial review to the High Court. Both routes are are potentially costly and risky for the applicant, and likely to be beyond the means of smaller businesses. The delay between lodging an appeal and the hearing date can be months. And while licence conditions pertaining to regulate entertainment are in dispute the licensee must refrain from providing the entertainment, or implement the condition.

None of this palaver applies, of course, to activities that are not licensable - such as the provision of big screen broadcast entertainment.

In places not primarily used for the supply and consumption of alcohol and where completely unamplified live music is provided, the suspension of all licence conditions does represent a significant concession. In practice, however, it will benefit a relatively small proportion of performers.

6    Genuine exemptions for unamplified live music
The performance of unamplified music will be exempt in the following circumstances:

as an integral part of a Morris dance, or dance of a similar nature
in a public place of religious worship
at a garden fete or similar function (provided the function is not for private gain),
under the 'incidental' exemption (which applies anywhere), provided it does not accompany dancing that could not be described as similar to Morris dancing, and does not accompany any other regulated entertainment,
or at a private event that is not for private gain.
The Morris exemption is, of course, welcome. However it gives rise to further anomalies: a public recital by a solo unamplified musician in, say, a hospital or library would be illegal unless licensed; but if the musician were to accompany folk dancers, the event would be exempt.

As you may know, Lord Lester of Herne Hill, architect of the Human Rights Act, said in the Lords last week that in his view the new regime was disproportionate (he cited particularly the complete exemption for big screen broadcast entertainment as against the licence requirement for live performance). Somehow I feel this issue is going to be around for a while.

Hamish


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Subject: RE: Licensing Bill moves on -OUR FUTURE
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 01:36 PM

Actually I can't blame the MPs for not understanding all this stuff. But I do blame them for not kicking up fuss and insisting that it should be made comprehensible before it is made law.

I switched on the Parliament channel last night by chance and caught the end of the rubber-stamp operation passing the Bill. The minister they put up to do the business (Richard Claborn?) was still droning on about the whistling postman


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Subject: RE: Licensing Bill moves on -OUR FUTURE
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 01:37 PM

The following from my MP.

Dear Roger

I have gone back to Hansard and found that the truth is slightly different to what I was told by another backbencher. Apologies. When he told me that acoustic music was being exempt I though he meant from licensing. As you probably are now aware the crucial bit from the Minister is:

Their effect will be to suspend conditions attached to a licence that have been imposed by a licensing authority in respect of unamplified live music in any premises with a capacity of no more than 200 where it is performed between the hours of 8 am and midnight. To protect local residents and control those few inevitably unscrupulous or irresponsible operators, the licence will remain reviewable.

So - yes acoustic remains licensable, but adding entertainment to the operating schedule for a licensee should not carry any extra cost for acoustic music and should be encouraged by activists like yourself.

Sorry for the confusion but I am delighted that the bill has now gone through unopposed in Parliament.

Jim


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Subject: RE: Licensing Bill moves on -OUR FUTURE
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 01:45 PM

Correction from Hamish

My apologies. A further check with DCMS necessitates the following correction:

Pubs and bars would qualify for the suspension of any licensing authority imposed condition which relates to the provision of music entertainment if they provide solely unamplified live music between 8am and midnight and the premises is not being used for the provision of any other description of regulated entertainment. The premises must also meet the other criteria: max 200 permitted capacity, and their premises licence already authorises the provision of 'music entertainment'.

The use of any amplification at all for instruments or vocals would disapply this broad concession, requiring public safety and crime and disorder conditions to have effect. However, the amplification used for the bar's jukebox, televisions (wide screen or conventional) is, of course, exempt in any event.

Hamish


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Subject: RE: Licensing Bill moves on -OUR FUTURE
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 02:54 PM

I still think Jim Knight has not got the point. I think the reality is this.....

You apply for the licence.

You tick the box.

The local authority says - ah-hah, regulated entertainment. We'd better demand double or treble glazing, air conditioning, fire escapes, new bullet proof lavatories, crush rails at the bars, wheelchair ramps, emergency lighting, and noise meters and bouncers in case it's a new wave right wing riot-punk band.

These are all conditions of the licence (remember, it's only one licence). So before you can sell beer (your livelihood, remember) you put all of these in at the cost of £30,000. THen when you have unamplified music you don't need them - but al you can dois give the bouncer the night off and leave the noise meter off (just in case Dave Bryant or my daughter or Triality (a very loud acoustic band) set it off).

You say in your operating plan "folk music" - they say - they could have a PA - same conditions as before. You say "jazz" - they say "Bootsie played Jazz-Funk and his bass amp could knock down houses - same conditions as before". You say "unamplified music" they say "some unamplifed performers are very popular, and the year John Cooper CLarke (punk poet) played Cambridge there were riots - leave out the triple glazing, but we've got to have the rest".

NOTHING GETS DISAPPLIED UNTIL THE ACOUSTIC OR SMALL EVENT STARTS.

That, I think, is what the act says.

If you disagree, take me to the words of the act that plainly say otherwise.


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Subject: RE: Licensing Bill moves on -OUR FUTURE
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 02:55 PM

So basically, if there's a music licence, you don't have to obey any of the restrictions imposed apart from the limit on numbers of people in the room, and it's over by midnight, and the ban on amplif8cation. What restrictions and conditions are they talking about? I can't actually think of any.

Or is it that, if a pub or whatver has got a licence cobering other types of live music, and it decides to allow some people to have a session, they don't have to go back and get the licence varied to cover that? My God, that's a pretty generous concession.

Meanwhile in any place in England or Wales which is open to the public which doesn't have a music licence, you are3 breaking the law if you do anything which coud be described as a muysical performance, unless you have a friendly Morris Dancer in tow. Unless the-lace is registered as a place of worship.


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Subject: RE: Licensing Bill moves on -OUR FUTURE
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 02:59 PM

So basically, if there's a music licence, you don't have to obey any of the restrictions imposed apart from the limit on numbers of people in the room, and it's over by midnight, and the ban on amplification. What restrictions and conditions are they talking about? I can't actually think of any.

Or is it that, if a pub or whatever has got a licence covering other types of live music, and it decides to allow some people to have a session, they don't have to go back and get the licence varied to cover that? My God, that's a pretty generous concession.

Meanwhile in any place in England or Wales which is open to the public which doesn't have a music licence, you are breaking the law if you do anything which could be described as a musical performance, unless you have a friendly Morris Dancer in tow. Unless the place is registered as a place of worship.


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Subject: RE: Licensing Bill moves on -OUR FUTURE
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 03:10 PM

The only condition I could think of which might be relevant is if the licence called for bouncers when live music is present. Of course, if they are there for safety reasons - and why else would you need them? - that's not one of the exemptions :-(

I'm thinking of starting a Rent-a-Side (TM) business. Now all I need is to work out which morris dance fits "Lucy Wan" best ...


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Subject: RE: Licensing Bill moves on -OUR FUTURE
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 04:00 PM

The following from Hamish Birchall

The Licensing Bill was ratified in the Commons yesterday (Tuesday 08 July) and should receive Royal Assent by the end of this week. It will be published as the Licensing Act 2003 next week.

Read the debate:
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200203/cmhansrd/cm030708/debtext/30708-67.htm#30708-67_head0

There are some good speeches.

Sadly, this means the Joint Committee on Human Rights will not be able to further consider the Act. They did not meet last Monday, due to the fact that there were insufficient members present to constitute a quorum.

Featured live music in pubs and bars using any amplification at all remains illegal unless licensed, and still subject to potentially onerous conditions, although these may be partially alleviated via the small venues concession (see 'small venues - licence conditions concession' below).

Unamplified live music in pubs and bars remains illegal unless licensed, but it does seem that any potentially onerous conditions that might otherwise relate to this category of live performance will be suspended where the small venues concession applies (also see below).

This is all the result of a last minute Government amendment of an amendment and is extremely complex. I would urge anyone with queries to contact Dominic Tambling at the Department for Culture on 020 7211 6351.

Clear Guidance for local authorities may militate against onerous conditions, but then again it may not. Local authorities tend to be very sure about what constitutes a 'necessary' condition. The only means to challenge a disputed condition - an appeal to magistrates, or judicial review - is costly and very time consuming, and likely to be beyond the means of smaller businesses.

Small venues - licence conditions concession
This is my best shot at a summary - but contact the DCMS on the number above for clarification:

In all cases, to qualify for the concession, the permitted capacity must be 200 or fewer and a premises licence must already be in force authorising 'music entertainment'.

Music entertainment means the performance of live music or performance of dance.

The amendment also makes a key distinction between places used primarily for the consumption of alcohol and those that are not:

Premises used primarily for the supply of alcohol for consumption on the premises.

This effectively means bars and pubs. The definition excludes restaurants, for example, libraries and hospitals, and any number of other potential venues for public performance.

If the bars or pubs qualify on the other criteria, and they provide performances of live amplified music, licence conditions relating to noise or the protection of children from harm will 'not have effect' initially.

They would have effect, however, if problems or complaints led to a review of the licence. The suspension of noise and protection of harm conditions would apply whenever such premises are open and providing the live music. This could be round the clock. However, safety and crime and disorder conditions would apply at all times.

If such premises provide solely unamplified live music at any time between 8am and midnight, and they are not being used for the provision of any other description of regulated entertainment, then it seems any licence condition that would otherwise relate to the performance will be suspended (subject to review as above).

Everywhere else
At other qualifying places such as restaurants, libraries, hospitals, public spaces, your front garden and so on, the wider unamplified concession applies, but if such places wish to provide amplified live music at any time, or unamplified music between midnight and 8am they will be subject to the full range of licence conditions.

Local authorities would also seem to be able to impose any condition that did not relate directly to the provision of the music entertainment, but which they could argue was 'necessary' to achieve any of the four licensing objectives.

Noise conditions inconsistent
Bars and pubs that open after midnight, particularly in towns and cities, are a major source of local residents' complaints, mostly about noisy people, but also noise breakout from within premises. And yet under the terms of the amendment they are exempt from noise conditions at any time (subject to review).

By contrast, other places which may not sell any alcohol, and are not commonly associated with neighbour complaint, or anti-social behaviour, are subject to noise conditions after midnight.

What does it mean in practice?
As now, where pubs and bars are concerned, local authorities will be empowered to impose any condition relating to the provision of live music, amplified or not, which they consider 'necessary' for public safety and crime and disorder.

If local authorities argue, as they have consistently in the past, that because live music attracts more people than usual the installation of more toilets is necessary (public safety), or door supervisors are needed (crime and disorder), the only way for the licence applicant to challenge the conditions will be via appeal to the Magistrates court, or application for judicial review to the High Court.

Both routes are are potentially costly and risky for the applicant, and likely to be beyond the means of smaller businesses. The delay between lodging an appeal and the hearing date can be months. And while licence conditions pertaining to regulate entertainment are in dispute the licensee must refrain from providing the entertainment, or implement the condition.

None of this palaver applies, of course, to activities that are not licensable - such as the provision of big screen broadcast entertainment.

In places not primarily used for the supply and consumption of alcohol and where completely unamplified live music is provided, the suspension of all licence conditions does represent a significant concession. In practice, however, it will benefit a relatively small proportion of performers.


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Subject: RE: Licensing Bill moves on -OUR FUTURE
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 04:58 PM

"the wider unamplified concession applies" - he lost me there. What is "the wider unamplified concession" ? I thoight there was just the one unamplified concession, which is extremely narrow.


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Subject: RE: Licensing Bill moves on -OUR FUTURE
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 05:00 AM

But who nobbled the JCHR and stopped the members attending so there would be no quorum and so no criticism by the JCHR of the bill before it passed the Commons?


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Subject: RE: Licensing Bill moves on -OUR FUTURE
From: The Shambles
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 07:22 AM

This exchange with my MP.

At 15:25 09/07/03 +0100, you wrote:

So - yes acoustic remains licensable, but adding entertainment to the operating schedule for a licensee should not carry any extra cost for acoustic music and should be encouraged by activists like yourself.


My encouragement to this end is a matter for me but it should be pretty clear by now that performers have always been and sadly remain rather short on any control they can exert over third parties - like licensees, local authority officers and the like.

Which is why hopes were so high when our Labour Government proposed to reform the current out-dated entertainment licensing regime. They have failed us and Labour MPs have failed us - but now seem to think that making these illogical measures work, is up to us!

Sorry for the confusion but I am delighted that the bill has now gone through unopposed in Parliament.

Jim


Your delight is not shared by many. Is this the simplified regime you claimed it would be? And it would now appear that It only went through in this form because the Lib Dem peers on the 3 July were under the same impression as you and your fellow back-bencher - i.e. that the Government had given more ground on non-amplified music than they actually had...........

Good intentions are not enough and it is quite wrong to expect your constituents to share your 'rose-coloured' glasses
just because these are your Government's best practical efforts. The chance was missed in the Committee stages to improve this Bill - where you and your side chose to play political games instead.

Can you advise on progress on obtaining a response from Mr Caborn on the questions I requested answers on? In particular those concerning safe capacity limits? Also so the letter to the LGO, that I requested and your latest thinking and progress on changing the local policy/interpretation and enabling the New Star session to re-start?

Can also you please establish from Mr Caborn confirmation and advice - arising from the following?

The conditions for non amplified music.

Is it correct that my freedom of musical expression in the form of non amplified music that is not an integral part of Morris dancing - and [along with amplified music] is not incidental or spontaneous - can only take place where the following conditions are already met?

A premise licence.
Advanced permission for entertainment contained in the Premises Licence.
An imposed safe capacity limit.


And that without these, this form of cultural musical expression will be illegal?

The practical application of the Government's amendment ; re conditions.

In reality and for practical reasons - there is very little conventional non amplified music in pubs and it is unlikely that anyone would apply for entertainment permission to provide only this. Any application would be for some form of amplified music - even if this was just for one microphone.

In addition to the requirement already for Premises Licence, Entertainment Permission and a safe capacity limit - any non amplified music will also be subject to any further conditions the local authority may make on the Premises Licence or optional entertainment permission.

If the licensee or owner agrees to these - conditions other than those for public safety or crime and disorder will not take effect. Nothing is preventing a local authority from insisting on first making them conditional however.

So if the licensee or owner does not agree to the local authority's conditions or does not undertake measures to comply with them - the entertainment permission will not be granted.

That after all is the very nature of these advanced conditions. So even if non amplified music would not require these conditions and they would not have effect if they were applied to the premises - my freedom of musical expression would have been prevented on these premises - where there were no grounds to do so.

Of course the same also applies, if the licensee or owner chooses not to apply for the optional entertainment permission at all.

Even if the present PEL take-up figure was increased from 5% (which would not be difficult) and to say 50% - that would still mean that the Bill's measure will prevent non amplified music from taking place in half of the nation's pubs.

Can this limit to my freedom of musical expression really be justified and proportionate on the grounds of public safety and crime and disorder?

The Government appear to have lowered their expectations and now talk now about a change - if a future review shows a decrease in the number of venues. I suggest that it may already be too late by then but - how is this to be measured? What increase in the entertainment permission take-up figure from its current 5% would the Government consider to be successful? Surely anything less than 100% would be a huge failure?

Safe capacity limits

Currently all premises with PELs have safe capacity limits automatically imposed upon them. If for example a pub obtains a Premise Licence and does not apply for the optional entertainment - will a safe capacity be imposed? If not - what is the justification for this?

As now, and in practice - will a safe capacity limit be automatically imposed on all and only premises applying for entertainment permission? If so - what is the justification for this?

I would suggest that all the conditions above - just to permit non amplified music are totally over the top, as surely just the safe capacity limit alone (on all premise) is perfectly sufficient to deal with any advance public safety or crime and disorder issues presented by this?

Perhaps it could be explained how the current entertainment licensing system alone manages to deal with the scare tactic of the advanced threat of a right-wing heavy-metal punk band, promoting guns etc, and why the simple small events exemption proposed in the Lords, could have possibly made this issue worse?

The point is that entertainment licensing has historically been misused to raise money and to impose one kind of morality or personal tastes upon us - all under the cloak of public safety.

So many other legislative measure have been or are about to be introduced that make reliance on entertainment licensing largely a thing of the past, especially for small events on regulated sites. We can afford to take these particular stabilisers off of our bike now.

It is to this Government's great and lasting shame that it resorted to these last minute scare tactics , whilst ignoring the very real risks and concerns expressed by ACPO toward unregulated broadcast TV football events and the real concerns of JCHR.

JCHR could not discuss the Licensing Bill in this final form before the Secretary of State was due to declare it compatible with the HRA. This was because they could not get enough people free to attend. I can't help wondering who were those that cried off...

Looking forward to you and your minister's reply to these questions and to some clarity.

Roger


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Subject: RE: Licensing Bill moves on -OUR FUTURE
From: ET
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 07:51 AM

Well done Shambles. Agree with every word of this. I am sure the Libs caved in on a misaprehension because of timing.

I have spoken to many landlords who think the idea of combining later opening, music and locals is a lethal cocktail and the concession they will drop is music!

Have been in touch wih my MP (Tory David Davies, Tony Blair if I can use my weapon of mass destruction to get through his officials) and John Whittingdale Tory Culture.


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Subject: RE: Licensing Bill moves on -OUR FUTURE
From: The Shambles
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 12:37 PM

Weymouth and Portland Advertiser 10 July 2003

South Dorset MP Jim Knight has been promoted.


Mr Knight who has represented South Dorset since 2001, after winning the seat from Tory Ian Bruce, has bee appointed the parliamentary secretary to health minister Rosie Winterton.

As well as raising Dorset issues at Westminster, Mr Knight's new job will mean he will have to liaise between the minister and Parliament.

The minister is responsible for emergency care including A&E, ambulance services, NHS Direct, mental health services, clinical negligence and patient and public involvement.


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Subject: RE: Licensing Bill moves on -OUR FUTURE
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 01:07 PM

A key element in the refusal of the Government to give way on the small premises exemption was said to have been a letter from Association of Chief Police Officers. It appears that this letter was a significant factor in getting the Liberals to roll over and play dead.

But in fact, in keeping with what appears to be current Government practice, Parliament was misled about what the letter actually said. True enough the letter did express opposition to the small premises exemption amendment as it stood - but the letter contained this indicating support for a modified amendment exempting un-amplified sessions in pubs:

Furthermore, provision of un-amplified music rarely gives rise to policing concerns. To further the interests of genuinely low level activity - for example, traditional folk music - the Association could lend its support to amendments that suspend all licence conditions on un-amplified music in small pubs. This support is conditional on there being effective review procedures in place so that the police could take action against a small proportion of venue operators who might exploit such liberalisation.

But of course this option was not put to Parliament. We woz robbed!


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Subject: RE: Licensing Bill moves on -OUR FUTURE
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 01:10 PM

"All licence conditions" surely includes the econdition that there shold be a music or entertainment element in the pub's licence.


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Subject: RE: Licensing Bill moves on -OUR FUTURE
From: The Shambles
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 01:12 PM

'Live music always acts as a magnet in whatever community it is being played. It brings people from outside that community and having no connection locally behave in a way that is inappropriate, criminal and disorderly'.
Chris Fox, President, Association of Chief Police Officers: letter to Tessa Jowell, DCMS, 2 July 2003

See below for the full unedited text of the letter from Chris Fox setting out ACPO's justification for rejecting the small premises exemption and supporting the Government small premises conditions concession. The letter was immediately circulated by the DCMS to all Peers in advance of the 3rd July Lords' debate where the small events exemption was finally lost:

~ ~ ~

Association of Chief Police Officers of England, Wales and Northern Ireland
25 Victoria Street, London SW1X OEX. Tel: (020) 7227 3434. Fax (020) 7227 3400/1.


                                                                                        2nd July 2003

Dear Tessa

Licensing Bill / Live Music / Crime and disorder


I write on behalf of the Association of Chief Police Officers to support the government amendment relating to premises of a capacity of less than 200 and the performance of live music thereon.

My Association was concerned that there was to be a live music exemption for small premises and this would seem to present policing with specific problems. Exempting premises from licences produce the following difficulties:

By exempting premises we cause an anomaly whereby problems caused at such a venue result in limited action because of restricted police powers. The premises continue to be used in such a way. A licensed premise however would find itself subject to the extended police powers and referred back to the Licensing Authority possibly to be stopped from this type of activity. This seems both illogical and wrong.

If an amendment is accepted which exempts any form of live music then we have the rather bizarre comparison between a heavy metal band using huge amplification and a single pianist or folk guitarist. The differences in such events extend not only to the level of noise but to the types of clientele, their social patterns and movement plus the differing impact on crime and disorder in a locality.

The Licensing Bill has been developed after considerable consultation with many stakeholders. My Association believes that it strikes a balance between less regulation providing freedom of choice for both businesses and consumer and the necessary safe guards to ensure the protection of the public and to enable local action to prevent crime and disorder.

I would wish to reiterate the reasons that my Association believes that the licensing of premises is an important step to the control of criminal and disorderly behaviour.

It is important to maintain a licensing regime, which is not punitive in nature for smaller community events. However from a policing standpoint to allow such events to take place anywhere with no requirement to notify either responsible authorities or those living or working in the vicinity seems to be a complete disregard to the community, its safety and the types of crime and disorder within it.

Police powers of closure under the current Bill (and legislation as it currently stands) only apply to those premises which do have a licence. If the public expectation is that the police are to control crime and disorder in a community then the powers surrounding the licences of premises should be available to the local police commander to use.

We understand the legitimate interests and concerns of the other stakeholders. However, we believe that the amendment that restricts the conditions that can be imposed on live music in premises with a capacity limit of less than 200 to "public safety and disorder" meets the policing requirement. It will still allow us to respond to problems of crime and disorder in a community yet still allow small events and live music to prosper. Furthermore, provision of unamplified music rarely gives rise to policing concerns.

To further the interests of genuinely low level activity - for example, traditional folk music - the Association could lend its support to amendments that suspend all licence conditions on unamplified music in small pubs. This support is conditional on there being effective review procedures in place so that the police could take action against a small proportion of venue operators who might exploit such liberalisation.

Many other events are used to attract custom to licensed premises be they widescreen television, pool competitions, quiz nights or themed food evenings. Often there are various venues with similar events thus diluting their impact whereas live amplified music can generate a leisure magnet even in smaller venues.

Live music always acts as a magnet in whatever community it is being played. It brings people from outside that community and having no connection locally behave in a way that is inappropriate, criminal and disorderly. The public expect the police to be able to deal with these incidents and the powers as outlined would seem to be a sensible way to do just that.

Yours sincerely
Chris Fox
President

Rt. Hon. Tessa Jowell
Secretary of State
Culture, Media and Sport


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