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BS: Black looters, white finders

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Q (Frank Staplin) 03 Sep 05 - 07:29 PM
GUEST,Jon 03 Sep 05 - 07:13 PM
GUEST,Jon 03 Sep 05 - 07:03 PM
GUEST,Jon 03 Sep 05 - 06:51 PM
McGrath of Harlow 03 Sep 05 - 06:42 PM
GUEST,Jon 03 Sep 05 - 05:14 PM
GUEST,Jon 03 Sep 05 - 05:06 PM
McGrath of Harlow 03 Sep 05 - 05:04 PM
McGrath of Harlow 03 Sep 05 - 04:45 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 03 Sep 05 - 04:08 PM
GUEST,Guy Who Thinks 03 Sep 05 - 04:06 PM
GUEST,zelger 03 Sep 05 - 03:57 PM
McGrath of Harlow 03 Sep 05 - 02:03 PM
Stilly River Sage 03 Sep 05 - 12:19 PM
Donuel 03 Sep 05 - 11:59 AM
GUEST,zelger 03 Sep 05 - 11:49 AM
JennyO 03 Sep 05 - 11:09 AM
Azizi 03 Sep 05 - 10:51 AM
GUEST 03 Sep 05 - 10:22 AM
Stilly River Sage 03 Sep 05 - 10:07 AM
GUEST,An Englishman Abroad` 03 Sep 05 - 09:46 AM
John Hardly 03 Sep 05 - 06:32 AM
zelger 03 Sep 05 - 05:57 AM
Ebbie 03 Sep 05 - 03:58 AM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Sep 05 - 08:18 PM
The Fooles Troupe 02 Sep 05 - 08:02 PM
John Hardly 02 Sep 05 - 07:11 PM
Azizi 02 Sep 05 - 06:52 PM
Greg F. 02 Sep 05 - 05:58 PM
Cluin 02 Sep 05 - 01:53 PM
Azizi 02 Sep 05 - 01:41 PM
Stilly River Sage 02 Sep 05 - 12:39 PM
Little Hawk 02 Sep 05 - 12:37 PM
Azizi 02 Sep 05 - 12:30 PM
Azizi 02 Sep 05 - 12:23 PM
Little Hawk 02 Sep 05 - 11:55 AM
GUEST,Guy Who Thinks 02 Sep 05 - 10:39 AM
GUEST,Scoville at work 02 Sep 05 - 09:17 AM
GUEST,Guy Who Thinks 02 Sep 05 - 09:06 AM
GUEST,Guy Who Thinks 02 Sep 05 - 09:03 AM
GUEST,Guy Who Thinks 02 Sep 05 - 08:20 AM
Stilly River Sage 02 Sep 05 - 02:08 AM
number 6 02 Sep 05 - 12:26 AM
Scoville 02 Sep 05 - 12:20 AM
number 6 02 Sep 05 - 12:15 AM
Scoville 02 Sep 05 - 12:08 AM
number 6 01 Sep 05 - 11:42 PM
GUEST 01 Sep 05 - 11:32 PM
Little Hawk 01 Sep 05 - 11:24 PM
GUEST,Guy Who Thinks 01 Sep 05 - 11:19 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 07:29 PM

Ho Hum


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Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 07:13 PM

Oh and I will lay bets that that single line of source under the 2 pictures was rather more willful that AFP, AP and Yahoo conspiring together to devise this subtle means of what might be read into it if the 2 pictures are viewed together.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 07:03 PM

Well McGrath, we must be using different browsers or something the picture I see on the page you link to is a merged picture of the 2. click here

Underneath it is the single line of source which gives.

Photo: AFP

The distinction is made in the accompanying text but the damage has already been done.


And the indication in this captions that for at least some people that distinction might rest on the colour of a person's skin is pretty disturbing.

If you are willing to put the actions of several different people together on that basis, yes but I think the odds are 99999999:1 on you and others putting 2+2 and making 6.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 06:51 PM

One observation I have made in this though is that, going by the picture that was removed (and forgetting any opinions formed by viewing the 2 pictures side by side), there could be more sensitivity over the idea of people taking property that wasn't thiers being described as "finding" than as "looting".

On that all I can say is call it what you will, there is no doubt in my mind that, if faced with similar circumstances, I'd have done the same if I could and I suspect most people would.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 06:42 PM

Both pictures are still there on the "The Age" site I linked to in that last post. And the caption from that site which I included in that post very clearly identified which was AFP and which was AP.

"I still fail to understand the fuss about this." In a situation where the official line is that there will be "zero tolerance" for "looters", and a shoot-to-kill policy, the distinction between "looting" and "finding" makes rather a difference. And the indication in this captions that for at least some people that distinction might rest on the colour of a person's skin is pretty disturbing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 05:14 PM

That link you've given is misleading McGrath as both pictures appear to come from AFP which going by the Yahoo site was not the case. I still fail to understand the fuss about this.

On the Yahoo site:

Picture 1 was taken and captioned by AP
Picture 2 was taken and captioned by AFP

The pictures were selected by Yahoo, quite possibly by different people and at different times.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 05:06 PM

I don't get that. I find "Picture 1" (the "looting" one) is still there but "Picture 2" (the "finding one") has been removed at the request of AFP.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 05:04 PM

But this link from The Age in Australia still works to show you what he was on about - Finders looters

"The official AP caption for the pic on the left: "A young man walks through chest deep flood water after looting a grocery store in New Orleans on Tuesday." The AFP caption for the pic on the right: "Two residents wade through chest-deep water after finding bread and soda from a local grocery store in New Orleans, Louisiana." Guess which is white and which is black, and then click on the link to check. My my, who'd have guessed...


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Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 04:45 PM

I note that if you click on the link to those pictures Wolfgang gave in his opening post, you now get a Yahoo "error message" - Sorry, Unable to process request at this time -- error 999.

Which is one way to deal with this kind of thing. The Internet Airbrush technique.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 04:08 PM

Anyone who closely followed the situation on the news channels saw 'looting' of stores for food, water and necessities, by police as well as by the citizens and tourists. Pictures showed police (while they were still trying to do their job) booting louts out of stores where they were liberating items that had nothing to do with survival, but leaving people seeking necessities alone.

All this blather about a word. Taking that which doesn't belong to you is a common middle class American definition of looting; of course that word will be used and I see no reason to 'load' it with racial meaning.

It must also be said that it is impossible for the average middle class white person from outside a setting such as New Orleans, including the newspeople with CNN and MSNBC, (at least a few of whom are not white but belong to the middle class), news reporters, etc. to avoid comments that appear racial since they (I should add we?) are covering people and situations outside of their experience. Most of them are trying to do the job they are paid to do.

In their minds, many people still equate poverty only with blacks. It has not yet sunk in that Hispanics are now the second largest group in the U. S. and many of them are poor. If this had been a catastrophe in a city such as San Antonio, would this thread have been different?


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Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 04:06 PM

No one, except some of you who post here, has claimed that black people "loot" while white people "find." You choose to select one photo caption and magnify it into a symptom of the kind of widespread, flagrant racism that disappeared from the national news media even before World War II.

No one has yet been reported "shot for looting." No sane prosecutor files charges against people taking food and water to survive a catastrophe, because (among other things) no jury would convict.

The young man who stole the school bus "could be" in a "world of trouble" in Orwell's 1984 but in fact he is NOT in trouble in the USA.

Whatever one may think of the war in Iraq, there is no evidence and no reason to conclude that troops sent there or money spent has had the slightest effect on recue operations. (1/3 of the local Guard units are overseas, but there are many thousands left, and many more in nearby states.)

The obsessive idiotic blaming of G. W. Bush for every aspect of this disaster, with barely a mention of the thousands of others from Congressmen, Governors, Mayors, Generals, on down to the lowliest confused Guardsman must have some Freudian explanation. Bush is not the only one who can be described as seeing things solely in black and white.

The constant reiteration of these ideas tells me more than I wish to know about how so many of you think. I'm old and I'm tired of it.

So I'm signing out of this place permanently. Goodbye.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: GUEST,zelger
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 03:57 PM

Someone needs to make a distinction between foraging (scavenging) for survival, and looting for gain.

Here is a distinction, rape is not survival, it is horrific barabarism, and foraging for food is basic survival instinct.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 02:03 PM

As Wolfgang pointed out, "lootimg" is a loaded term. It appears that taking the things you and your family need from shops and so forth in a distaster is more likely to be called looting" if you are black in America than if you arewhite.

That's not "looting" when it's people doing what they need to do to survive. In fact people have every right to do so. And in fact a moral duty to do so.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 12:19 PM

If the shoe fits, zelger.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 11:59 AM

THE FIRST ORDER OF BUSINESS FOR CONGRESS

When they come back to session the FIRST item
on their agenda is the estate tax law and cutting taxes for people who make over $16 million a year.

(this is part of their ecomomic stimulus package)


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Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: GUEST,zelger
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 11:49 AM

And Zelger, I believe the vast majority of wooly haired Black folks still in New Orleans are law abiding citizens who worked low paying jobs and weren't able to afford a car.

I didn't say they weren't law abiding folk. I said the vast majority of looters in New Orleans are black. fact.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: JennyO
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 11:09 AM

I posted this on another thread, but I think it bears repeating - it's the best story I've heard so far coming out of this sad mess and seems appropriate for this thread. I can't help wondering though how the young man in question will be treated over what he did. I think it would be outrageous if he ended up in trouble for looting under the circumstances, and I certainly hope he doesn't. In my eyes he is a hero!

I'll post it as well as linking to it, in case the link doesn't last. There is a video of a report on it there as well.

Taking refuge in the Astrodome

Thursday, September 01, 2005   Updated: 11:32 AM

HOUSTON -- NEWSCHANNEL 5 crews were in Houston as some desperate refugees arrived in a stolen bus.

HOUSTON -- Thousands of refugees of Hurricane Katrina were transported to the Astrodome in Houston this week. In an extreme act of looting, one group actually stole a bus to escape ravaged areas in Louisiana.

About 100 people packed into the stolen bus. They were the first to enter the Houston Astrodome, but they weren't exactly welcomed.

The big yellow school bus wasn't expected or approved to pass through the stadium's gates. Randy Nathan, who was on the bus, said they were desperate to get out of town.

"If it werent for him right there," he said, "we'd still be in New Orleans underwater. He got the bus for us."

Eighteen-year-old Jabbor Gibson jumped aboard the bus as it sat abandoned on a street in New Orleans and took control.

"I just took the bus and drove all the way here...seven hours straight,' Gibson admitted. "I hadn't ever drove a bus."

The teen packed it full of complete strangers and drove to Houston. He beat thousands of evacuees slated to arrive there.

"It's better than being in New Orleans," said fellow passenger Albert McClaud, "we want to be somewhere where we're safe."

During a long and impatient delay, children popped their heads out of bus windows and mothers clutched their babies.

One 8-day-old infant spent the first days of his life surrounded by chaos. He's one of the many who are homeless and hungry.

Authorities eventually allowed the renegade passengers inside the dome. But the 18-year-old who ensured their safety could find himself in a world of trouble for stealing the school bus.

"I dont care if I get blamed for it ," Gibson said, "as long as I saved my people."

Sixty legally chartered buses were expected to arrive in Houston throughout the night. Thousands of people will be calling the Astrodome "home," at least for now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Azizi
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 10:51 AM

"...only wooly thinking liberals in cuckoo land believe this outbreak is nothing to do with black people in new orleans..."
zelger; 03 Sep 05 - 05:57 AM

-snip-

Well in a way, Zelger, your comment is kinda funny. But I don't find in ha ha funny. At least you didn't say nappy [or even worse kinky] thinking liberals...

And Zelger, I believe the vast majority of wooly haired Black folks still in New Orleans are law abiding citizens who worked low paying jobs and weren't able to afford a car.

And speaking of welfare-what do you call those huge government corporate subsidies that are always being passed [not to mention the tax breaks]? Maybe you think those are just jim dandy because doing that is standard operating procedure and not the result of "wooly thinking".

I would guess that most of the people who benefit from those handouts are straight haired people and not wooly haired folks.

And the beat goes on...


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Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 10:22 AM

A bigot?

Well done. my post challenged your opinion you called me a nasty name.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 10:07 AM

only wooly thinking liberals in cuckoo land believe this outbreak is nothing to do with black people in new orleans. it is the product of a welfare system supporting huge % of blacks dissapearing over night. Once the hand that feeds them is removed they resort to crime.

zelger, you're a bigot.

You know nothing, none of us does, about the makeup of the gangs with guns in New Orleans right now. We can guess at the percentages of racial makeup, but the dynamic that is going on there right now has never had an equal in the U.S.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: GUEST,An Englishman Abroad`
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 09:46 AM

There has been a lot of talk about lack of funding. The Presidents spokesman in a press conference said no funding had been with held. Below is an extract from Fact Check .org the web site said to be reliable by the Vice President.

It seems to me that no matter what the situation the political bull shit must go on. What is so wrong about saying we #$%^&* up. The man who has never made a mistake has never done anything.

The point is this. It must have been known that there would be thousands who would not be able to make it out if there was such a desaster. So are they expendable, do they not matter because they are the poor. I used to be glad that I had been born at a time when there was so much advance and to be around when it started, but have we advanced. I think those at the top and some of those at the bottom are a selfish lot of bastards who could not care less about anyone.

Below is the extract from Fact check .org

Is Bush to Blame for New Orleans Flooding?
He did slash funding for levee projects. But the Army Corps of Engineers says Katrina was just too strong.

September 2, 2005

Summary



Some critics are suggesting President Bush was as least partly responsible for the flooding in New Orleans. In a widely quoted opinion piece, former Clinton aide Sidney Blumenthal says that "the damage wrought by the hurricane may not entirely be the result of an act of nature," and cites years of reduced funding for federal flood-control projects around New Orleans.

Our fact-checking confirms that Bush indeed cut funding for projects specifically designed to strengthen levees. Indeed, local officials had been complaining about that for years.

It is not so clear whether the money Bush cut from levee projects would have made any difference, however, and we're not in a position to judge that. The Army Corps of Engineers – which is under the President's command and has its own reputation to defend – insists that Katrina was just too strong, and that even if the levee project had been completed it was only designed to withstand a category 3 hurricane.



Analysis



We suspect this subject will get much more attention in Congress and elsewhere in the coming months. Without blaming or absolving Bush, here are the key facts we've been able to establish so far:

Bush Cut Funding

Blumenthal's much-quoted article in salon.com carried the headline: "No one can say they didn't see it coming." And it said the Bush administration cut flood-control funding "to pay for the Iraq war."

He continues:

Blumenthal: With its main levee broken, the evacuated city of New Orleans has become part of the Gulf of Mexico . But the damage wrought by the hurricane may not entirely be the result of an act of nature.

…By 2003 the federal funding for the flood control project essentially dried up as it was drained into the Iraq war. In 2004, the Bush administration cut funding requested by the New Orleans district of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers for holding back the waters of Lake Pontchartrain by more than 80 percent. Additional cuts at the beginning of this year…forced the New Orleans district of the Corps to impose a hiring freeze.

We can confirm that funding was cut. The project most closely associated with preventing flooding in New Orleans was the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers' Hurricane Protection Project, which was "designed to protect residents between Lake Pontchartrain and the Missisippi River levee from surges in Lake Pontchartrain," according to a fact sheet from the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers. (The fact sheet is dated May 23, long before Katrina). The multi-decade project involved building new levees, enlarging existing levees, and updating other protections like floodwalls. It was scheduled to be completed in 2015.

Over at least the past several budget cycles, the Corps has received substantially less money than it requested for the Lake Pontchartrain project, even though Congress restored much of the money the President cut from the amount the Corps requested.

In fiscal year 2004, the Corps requested $11 million for the project. The President's budget allocated $3 million, and Congress furnished $5.5 million. Similarly, in fiscal 2005 the Corps requested $22.5 million, which the President cut to $3.9 million in his budget. Congress increased that to $5.5 million. "This was insufficient to fund new construction contracts," according to a U.S. Army Corps of Engineers' project fact sheet. The Corps reported that "seven new contracts are being delayed due to lack funds" [sic].

The President proposed $3 million for the project in the budget for fiscal 2006, which begins Oct. 1. "This will be insufficient to fund new construction projects," the fact sheet stated. It says the Corps "could spend $20 million if funds were provided." The Corps of Engineers goes on to say:

Army Corps of Engineers, May 23: In Orleans Parish, two major pump stations are threatened by hurricane storm surges. Major contracts need to be awarded to provide fronting protection for them. Also, several levees have settled and need to be raised to provide the design protection. The current funding shortfalls in fiscal year 2005 and fiscal year 2006 will prevent the Corps from addressing these pressing needs.

The Corps has seen cutbacks beyond those affecting just the Lake Pontchartrain project. The Corps oversees SELA, or the Southeast Louisiana Urban Flood Control project, which Congress authorized after six people died from flooding in May 1995. The Times-Picayune newspaper of New Orleans reported that, overall, the Corps had spent $430 million on flood control and hurricane prevention, with local governments offering more than $50 million toward the project. Nonetheless, "at least $250 million in crucial projects remained," the newspaper said.

In the past five years, the amount of money spent on all Corps construction projects in the New Orleans district has declined by 44 percent, according to the New Orleans CityBusiness newspaper, from $147 million in 2001 to $82 million in the current fiscal year, which ends Sept. 30.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: John Hardly
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 06:32 AM

Obviously, Ebbie, I don't like it. I don't like the no-win situation that has a president damned if he does (by the likes of me) and damned if he doesn't (by soft-headed thinkers who believe that a presidential appearance is "doing something"). Anything a president can do, he can do from a distance.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: zelger
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 05:57 AM

Oh come on. New Orleans is 70% black. white americans have suffered disasters before, natural and unatural. they have suffered depressions. They did not respond via crime on the scale we are seeing in new orleans today. rape, pillage, murder, seems a fitting epitaph for multi-racial harmony america.

only wooly thinking liberals in cuckoo land believe this outbreak is nothing to do with black people in new orleans. it is the product of a welfare system supporting huge % of blacks dissapearing over night. Once the hand that feeds them is removed they resort to crime.

Oh and by the way, i have relatives in new orleans. fuck liberalism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 03:58 AM

" In the midst of rescue efforts, trying to pull off the logistics of a presidential appearance would be near criminal in its selfish political posturing. I have always hated presidents using disasters as photo-ops. There could hardly be a less meaningful, more selfish thing for a president to do during a disaster" John Hardly

If you really mean that, John, what is your opinion of the president being there today?


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Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 08:18 PM

People have a right and a duty to take what they need from shops and the like in a situation like this.

Talk about "looting" when people are doing that, or salvaging stuff that is otherwise going to go to waste, is absurd.

I suppose when Robinson Crusoe took all those tools and so forth from the wreck of his ship, that was looting... This is a kind of shipwreck, but on an enormous scale.

I'm sure there's real looting going on in among this, stealing personal belongings from temporarily abandoned houses and stuff like that, but talk about "zero tolerance for looters", and "shoot to kill", as if everyone grubbing around for the necessities of life were like that is crazy talk.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 08:02 PM

"We're already herding them around like livestock because we don't have enough real accomodations."

Europe experienced this on a much more wide spread basis after WWII.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: John Hardly
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 07:11 PM

A president doesn't help by being in the midst of a disaster. In the midst of rescue efforts, trying to pull off the logistics of a presidential appearance would be near criminal in its selfish political posturing. I have always hated presidents using disasters as photo-ops. There could hardly be a less meaningful, more selfish thing for a president to do during a disaster. We don't need symbolism. We need what we're working on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Azizi
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 06:52 PM

Another term for 'finding':

"LOOTING ALERT!!!
Rich lady who was staying at the Hyatt said that Doctor had to "commandeer" antibiotics from Walgreens."

RandyMI on Fri Sep 2nd, 2005; http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/9/2/163959/3853


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Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 05:58 PM

Yup, the "New South", so called.

Translated, means the Klan doesn't wear robes & hoods any more, is all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Cluin
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 01:53 PM

Sort of gives you the feeling that, where it matters, we haven't come very far at all, have we?


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Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Azizi
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 01:41 PM

Here are some excerpts from some dailykos bloggers who are talking about race & the abysmal seemingly uncaring & imo definitely criminal lack of preparation & totally insufficient response to this devastation that should have been forseen by "our" government:

"...Let's remember it's not just black people

In Mississippi and other parts of Louisiana there are many communities still waiting for help, some of which are mostly white.

I saw Joe Scarborough being outraged last night about the lack of response from officials and he was reporting from a town in Mississippi.

Anderson Cooper also did some good reporting from there. People of all races.

The situation in New Orleans really is mostly poor blacks that were affected but there is serious devastation all around as well.

Just pointing that out because I don't want anyone to feel left out..."
by diplomatic on Fri Sep 2nd, 2005

-snip-

"true

but not being able to get food and water to a major city for 5 days and most of the people there are black. Would that happen to Duluth Minn? I do not think so.

The people of New Orleans, the latest casualties of Iraq"
by Jlukes

-snip-


"Oh of course not

Listen, if the majority of the people in New Orleans or at the superdome where white President Bush himself would be out there handing out water like he did in Florida.

We all know it. The media seems to know it. This is America. No longer separate, but unequal..."
by diplomatic on Fri Sep 2nd, 2005

-snip-

New Orleans-Congo Square, the birthplace of jazz, zydeco, let the good times roll, that in & of itself is so increadible sad but this inhumane treatment of people...

I don't have any words to convey my feelings. Someone PMed me and asked if I was angry. My response was that I'm too frozen to be angry. As an African American this hits me hard because I feared for the worse of the natural disaster, but I expected the government to be much much better prepared-after all what good is FEMA and the Dept.of Homeland Security??? Apparently not good at all.

I actually was foolish enough to expect Bush to put on a caring facade and do a PR thing, using this tragedy to get his ratings up. But in my opinion he hasn't even tried to fake concern. His concern is what it has always been -the oil.

Bush played golf, pretended to play a guitar & took a birthday cake photo op. Black Aunt Jemima Condi played tennis, went to a Broadway play & then went shopping for shoes. And Dick Cheney- where is Dick Cheney and why is he where he is and what in the world is he doing there??

This whole thing is FUBAR.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 12:39 PM

I heard a clarification of the Astrodome issue this morning. Last night late the Houston Fire Marshall saw that they ran out of cots and lines were backing up for some of the services. He took this as the indicator that the place had enough people, so he closed the doors to any more coming in. There were something like 162 buses in the parking lot with people waiting to get in, but I think by now they're here in the Dallas and Fort Worth area and in San Antonio. Dallas officials don't know where they're going to put that many people, was the last thing I head on the radio about it.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 12:37 PM

For sure, Azizi. The media are scared stiff of even commenting on "race" or anything like that. It's become the great unmentionable. This is partly because the real situation OF prejudice and poverty in America is so bad, partly because it's too risky to the media people's professional careers (as you suggested), and partly because the "race card" has already been played so cynically and opportunistically so many times by people OF visible minority groups (as in the O.J. Simpson trial, for example).

There is so much prejudice on ALL sides when it comes to this that people have become almost incapable of being honest or fair about it or discussing it openly without extreme fear. This is also true of issues involving Jews and Muslims and the Arab-Israeli conflict.

How do you get people to talk openly about something when they are afraid of being judged and attacked for it, and possibly having their careers and reputations destroyed?

The only people who can get around it anymore are people like Howard Stern, people who have resolved to be totally outrageous from the getgo. Everyone else is afraid to say what they think, except in private. Maybe they're even afraid to say it there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Azizi
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 12:30 PM

That article I quoted is from slate.msn.com/id/2124688/nav/tap2/


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Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Azizi
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 12:23 PM

Here are excerpts from an article about the race & class and "Floodgate":

"Lost in the Flood
Why no mention of race or class in TV's Katrina coverage?
By Jack Shafer
Posted Wednesday, Aug. 31, 2005, at 4:22 PM PT

....This storm appears to have hurt blacks more directly than whites, but the broadcasters scarcely mentioned that fact...

To be sure, some reporters sidled up to the race and class issue. I heard them ask the storm's New Orleans victims why they hadn't left town when the evacuation call came. Many said they were broke—"I live from paycheck to paycheck," explained one woman. Others said they didn't own a car with which to escape and that they hadn't understood the importance of evacuation.

But I don't recall any reporter exploring the class issue directly by getting a paycheck-to-paycheck victim to explain that he couldn't risk leaving because if he lost his furniture and appliances, his pots and pans, his bedding and clothes, to Katrina or looters, he'd have no way to replace them. No insurance, no stable, large extended family that could lend him cash to get back on his feet, no middle-class job to return to after the storm....


Race remains largely untouchable for TV because broadcasters sense that they can't make an error without destroying careers. That's a true pity. If the subject were a little less taboo, one of last night's anchors could have asked a reporter, "Can you explain to our viewers, who by now have surely noticed, why 99 percent of the New Orleans evacuees we're seeing are African-American? I suppose our viewers have noticed, too, that the provocative looting footage we're airing and re-airing seems to depict mostly African-Americans

When disaster strikes, Americans—especially journalists—like to pretend that no matter who gets hit, no matter what race, color, creed, or socioeconomic level they hail from, we're all in it together. This spirit informs the 1997 disaster flick Volcano, in which a "can't we all just get along" moment arrives at the film's end: Volcanic ash covers every face in the big crowd scene, and everybody realizes that we're all members of one united race.

But we aren't one united race, we aren't one united class, and Katrina didn't hit all folks equally. By failing to acknowledge upfront that black New Orleanians—and perhaps black Mississippians—suffered more from Katrina than whites, the TV talkers may escape potential accusations that they're racist. But by ignoring race and class, they boot the journalistic opportunity to bring attention to the disenfranchisement of a whole definable segment of the population. What I wouldn't pay to hear a Fox anchor ask, "Say, Bob, why are these African-Americans so poor to begin with?"

-snip-

The complete article is HERE


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Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 11:55 AM

You know what, folks? You're gonna need socialism to deal with a situation this big. Oooo...scary (to Americans). Yup. Socialism. That's something that you do because it MUST be done, because it HAS to be done...not because it makes money for someone.

Remember Roosevelt's New Deal?

There are maybe a million people now who need shelter, homes, jobs, and basic infrastructure. Who is going to do it? Private industry? Private industry works when they are paid to.

Socialism does what actually needs to be done. And that is sanity. It doesn't matter whether or not it makes money for anyone, it has to be done. Money isn't even real. It's an arbitrary invented thing...an idea...stamped on pieces of paper. Human lives are real.

And that's why I believe in (a certain amount of) socialism. When and where it is needed. Socialism is not an all-or-nothing proposition. It combines very well with capitalism. It's what you use when and where capitalism doesn't solve the problem adequately.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 10:39 AM

San Francisco and probably St. Louis are in a comparable situtation. Some day the great earthquake will come. But when? And you can't protect against an earthquake with levees. And you can't, realistically, dismantle a city either.

The Japanese and Chinese, for example, have suffered terrible earthquakes. One at Kobe, Japan, in 1985 leveled the city and killed 5,000 people. It took ten years to rebuild. 100,000 died from a quake near Tokyo before World War II.

Such risks never go away.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: GUEST,Scoville at work
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 09:17 AM

The AstroDome has been declared full. I don't know that it's actually FULL or if they realized the restrooms, etc. couldn't handle any more people. They're sending people to the Reliant Center instead (a huge convention hall).

I wish I had saved it, but somebody emailed me yesterday an article from National Geographic that predicted this almost to a T. It's not TERRIBLY common, but we do have very bad hurricanes on a fairly regular basis (every 20 years or so). This is certainly the worst in quite a long time.

However, it seems to me as though we have "Ten-Year Storms" a lot more often than that. On the one hand, we should be more prepared. On the other, people get used to hurricanes--summer here is "Hurricane Season" and we get weather-tracking charts from the grocery stores--and don't take it as seriously as you would think. Sounds ridiculous, but as much as people bitch about it, a lot of them don't move (yes, moving is expensive, but so is renovating your house every four years because it had filthy water four feet up the walls).


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Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 09:06 AM

Sorry. Click on the blue headline for the full news story.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 09:03 AM

I've calmed down somewhat. Before we get too enraged about the foot-dragging response to those warnings, there's one very important element that I have not heard addressed by the news. Namely, how likely was this kind if disaster, according to the studies?

Risk management has to balance consequences with likelihood. In other words, a very remote catastrophe demands a lesser immediate response than a less terrible but virtually certain event.

If the warnings stated, say, "a 50-50 chance within ten years," that would be a wakeup call that no sane politician could ignore. But if the reports suggested, for example, "a 1 in 500 chance in the next twenty years," there would be a lower priority for improving the levees now.

I am certainly not trying to let anybody off the hook. But let's determine what the facts really are.

Here is a very grim summary of recent developments:

http://news.yahoo.com/fc/world/hurricanes_and_tropical_storms


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Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 08:20 AM

The people being "turned away" from the Astrodome are being sent to other shelters.

Aside from that, here is something that justifies plenty of anger. Various official and journalistic reportshave been warning of the possibilty of just such a catastrophe (Category 5 storm, broken levees) over the past ten years or more. Apparently it was very difficult to get much preventive action out of the city, state, or federal governments for the usual reason that people don't like like to apportion many millions of dollars to protect against something that may never happen.

Levee improvements finally got underway at a leisurely pace. Some or all of the federal funding was eventually cut, whether by Congress or President Bush I don't know. This is scandalous, to put it mildly, and we can expect to hear much more about it in the months to come.

A Corps of Engineer officer who worked on the project said on CNN last night that even had federal funding not been cut, the project began so recently and was moving so slowly that there was no way that the levees could have been strengthened in time.

The bottom line in all of this is that government officials were warned long ago by scientists and engineers but took little interest in the warnings.

Since all citizens were obviously at risk, this stupidity was clearly not racially motivated. It was motivated, at least in part, by the kind of optimism that says "It can't happen to us."


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Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 02:08 AM

The Red Cross lifted the rule about turning them away sometime early in the evening; they were accepting all comers last I heard, up to the capacity they listed (25,000). I think the turning people away bit is a rumor. And there are other cities across Texas with facilities in place for LA refugees if they do have to refer them elsewhere.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: number 6
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 12:26 AM

Exactly Scoville ... the ones being turned away tonite are busloads arriving from the Superdome.

Unbelievable!

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Scoville
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 12:20 AM

I heard they--the guards at the AstroDome--were told to take in only refugees from the Superdome, and people NOT from the Superdome are being turned away. I don't know what is the absolute latest word on that. It sucks: Where are we going to put everyone? We're already herding them around like livestock because we don't have enough real accomodations.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: number 6
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 12:15 AM

Latest news is that the evacuees arriving at the Houston Astro Dome are being turned away, sent somewhere else (unknown at this time) ... we where told that the Astro Dome would take in 25k refugees .... so far 8k have been given shelter there ... apparently the Fire Department pulled the plug .... who is in charge, are there any plans at all ???

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Scoville
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 12:08 AM

Anywhere is a terrible place to be black and poor, isn't it? I'm sure New York, Pittsburgh, London, etc. are not much better.

The disgusting thing to me is that, once evacuation orders were given, the government should have made sure that people COULD evacuate. Where was all this help BEFORE the storm wiped the place out?

I work for the medical center in Houston, which will soon be flooded (no sick puns intended, trust me) with hurricane refugees who need emergency health care and don't have money or insurance to pay for it. We're a large city with a large underclass and a high violent crime rate--our ER's are not underused as it is. This is going to be very, very hard on us, too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: number 6
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 11:42 PM

Guy who thinks .... yer so correct. But you cannot deny your anger when you see the unfortunate victimized by such bungling.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 11:32 PM

NO is not a great place to be black and poor. It is a terrible place to be black and poor. The image of happy darkys, singing and dancing on street corners is a fanstasy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 11:24 PM

Yeah. And in Iraq (and some other places), that's not what you want to hear when you're in the middle of a big crowd. Or any time, actually.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 11:19 PM

Yes, Little Hawk. And all because of an incorrect rumor that a suicide bomber had been seen in the crowd.


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