BS: Christian Persecution

Subject: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 04:55 AM

report by Vatican-approved agency Aid to the Church in Need suggested 75% of religious persecution around the world is directed against Christians, affecting 100 million people.

The church highlighted the assassination of Pakistani Minority Affairs Minister Shahbaz Bhatti at the start of March.

Mr Bhatti was the only Christian member of the cabinet in Pakistan.

Cardinal O'Brien said: "I urge William Hague to obtain guarantees from foreign governments before they are given aid.

"To increase aid to the Pakistan government when religious freedom is not upheld and those who speak up for religious freedom are gunned down is tantamount to an anti-Christian foreign policy.

"Pressure should now be put on the government of Pakistan - and the governments of the Arab world as well - to ensure that religious freedom is upheld, the provision of aid must require a commitment to human rights."

He said the report's estimate of persecution against Christians was "intolerable and unacceptable".
he report also highlights the Christian population of Iraq, which it says has gone from an estimated 1.4 million to as low as 150,000 over the past 25 years.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/mobile/uk-scotland-12738479

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 06:44 AM

Surely Bhatti was assassinated not because he was Xtian but because he was proposing (rightly)the reform of Pakistan's blasphemy laws and also (and also rightly) the pardon of the Xtian woman sentenced to death for blaspheming the prophet after a row in the agricultural fields with some rather fundamentalist women.

If I am right he was assassinated not for what he was but for what he said.

I would however be surprised if these Vatican figures were right.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 06:52 AM

The blasphemy law is used to persecute Christians.
Christians do not believe Mohammed was the greatest prophet.
That is blasphemy and carries the death penalty.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Wesley S
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 06:56 AM

Pass the popcorn. This ought to be good for about 500 posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 07:01 AM

I see Dr. Nazir Bhatti, President of Pakistan Christian Congress said that the UK aids Pakistan under pressure of British Pakistani Muslims but not for protection of Christian, Ahmadi or Shaia communities.

British aid is not utilized on public welfare but enjoyed by armed forces of Pakistan and ISI which recruits and supports militants for terror in Afghanistan, Kashmir and India. The ISI operatives in radicalised British Pakistani Muslim for London suicide bombing.

Dr. Bhatti was commenting on the statement of Foreign Minister Mr. Burt, responding on objections raised on Britain aid to Pakistan by Cardinal O'Brien in which he expressed concern on doubling aid to Pakistan when incidents of violence are rising against religious minorities in Pakistan.

Britain should aid Civil Society organizations for social welfare uplift of Pakistani people and religious minorities instead of the government of Pakistan that armed forces may not use it to spread terror.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 09:30 AM

Take the cross, grab your rifle and cry: "Deus lo vult!"

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 09:47 AM

A piece by Damien Thompson.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/damianthompson/100079884/is-britains-foreign-policy-anti-christian-not-particularly-we-just-do

(Damian Thompson is a British journalist, author and blogger. He is Blogs Editor of the Telegraph Media Group, with responsibility for editing and commissioning blogs on politics, religion, finance and culture for Telegraph.co.uk. He blogs mainly about religion. He is also a regular leader writer for The Daily Telegraph and former Editor-in-Chief of the Catholic Herald. He remains a Director of the Catholic Herald and has a Ph.D in the sociology of religion. He has written two books about apocalyptic belief and one about counterknowledge, "misinformation packaged to look like fact".

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 09:50 AM

You know, I've had just about had it with the whining about persecution from so-called "Christians".

I seem to recall that Jesus explained that it was not easy being a Christian, and that none should expect it to be anything but hard work.

I also seem to recall that

".....[Jesus] opened his mouth, and taught them, saying...

Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you."

So let's hear less pissing and moaning and whining and mewling and complaining and more rejoicing and gladness. And getting on with the hard work of being a Christian.

Its right there in the "Christians"[sic] own play book. Can't argue with The Word Of God, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 10:08 AM

No sympathy expressed so far.
Just sneering and hate.

The Independent, 2nd Jan 2011.
some church leaders are urging their remaining flock to abandon Iraq before it is too late and they are massacred.

If al-Qa'ida has its way, this ancient culture and people will soon be no more. In recent days, grenade and bomb attacks killed two more Christians and injured 18 more in Baghdad. Motorcyclists drove down streets, targeting Christian homes. Back in October, suicide bombers attacked the Church of Our Salvation in Baghdad, killing 58, before – and this was unreported at the time – grotesquely blowing themselves up, along with a child hostage, at the altar. In a statement afterwards, al-Qa'ida said: "Christians are a legitimate target."

Tensions between Muslims and Christians are not confined to Iraq: yesterday morning, at least seven people were killed and 24 injured in an explosion at a Coptic Christian church, possibly in retaliation for the rape of a Muslim girl.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 10:12 AM

So, Keith: are you rejoicing and exceeding glad, or not?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 10:14 AM

The Guardian 24th Dec. 2010

As Christians the world over celebrate the miracle of the Jesus's birth, there are many for whom this season is a time of tension and uncertainty, while others languish in prisons around the world, from Iran to Vietnam, simply because they have chosen to follow their faith.


Around 3,000 Christians are in prison in Eritrea, held without trial in appalling conditions, and suffering threats and beatings simply on account of their faith. In Iraq, where 52 people died in Our Lady of Salvation Catholic church in Baghdad when security forces attempted to free worshippers taken hostage by militants, some Christian communities have decided against Christmas celebrations, for fear of attacks by extremist groups.


In Egypt, Christians gathering in church for Coptic Christmas Eve mass on 7 January will be acutely aware of the drive-by shooting after mass in Nag Hammadi just one year ago that claimed the lives of eight Christians and a Muslim security official, and which was the precursor to further attacks on Christian communities in the surrounding area.


Christians in prison for their faith bear the weight of fear and uncertainty without the comfort of their community around them, and in some cases in solitary confinement, like Iranian Pastor Behrouz Sadegh-Khanjani. Initially arrested in January after being summoned to Shiraz to explain church activities, Pastor Khanjani was released on bail in March but rearrested on 16 June and sent to an infamous political prison, where he has spent much of his detention in solitary confinement. He has only had access to his lawyer once between his arrest and late November, while his health has deteriorated steadily due to the harsh and unsanitary conditions in the prison, where Christian prisoners are reportedly subjected to eight hours of interrogation a day, and some are kept in cramped conditions where they are unable to sleep.

Pastor Khanjani is charged with apostasy – leaving Islam, blasphemy and contact with the enemy, and is facing a possible death sentence. Also facing a death sentence is Pastor Yousef Nadarkhani, who was charged with apostasy on 13 October after questioning the Muslim monopoly on the religious instruction of children in Iran, which contravenes the Iranian constitution, under which a parent is permitted to raise children in their own faith. The written confirmation of the court's sentence – the death penalty – was delivered on 13 November. His appeal is pending.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 10:15 AM

So, Keith: are you rejoicing and exceeding glad, or not?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 10:17 AM

I am loath to condone any killing esp. in the name of religion, but I do believe in karma, not only individual, but also for institutions. The following:


If al-Qa'ida has its way, this ancient culture and people will soon be no more.

is something which has been written and proven about the Christian religion for a long time. If Christians feel persecuted, perhaps they should examine the long history the "church" has of annihilating, persecuting, etc. those who do not agree with their beliefs, including the long-time mistreatment of indigenous peoples in various countries.

Recent events are truly horrible, but there are no easy solutions until the leaders of all religious beliefs give up their dogma in a preference for peace and co-existence and lead their flocks in doing the same.

And, that is all I will say on the subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Wesley S
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 10:22 AM

And let's not forget - or forgive - The Spanish Inquisition.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 10:45 AM

When one group of people identify with each other, say as Christians, Muslim, stamp collectors, shanty singers, wearers of baggy y fronts whatever, they become a group.

Funny that they not only get a persecution complex, but also wish to force their way of life on others, ie persecute them.

I am raising an eyebrow to the tosh coming out of The Church of England at present that everybody has it in for them. My wife's brother is coming over next month and he has that serene smile of a nutter about him. As he works in a diocese office churning out their diatribe, I am really really looking forward to a weekend of hearing his ranting. (He refuses to believe I am not a Christian and is praying that I see the light. If I see any light it is because I have put it on a bonfire.)

He and his mates reckon that Christians are being persecuted in The UK because they aren't allowed to tell adopted kids that homosexuality is wrong. They reckon they are being persecuted because a nurse wasn't allowed to pray. That you should be able to invite people into your home under your rules Blah blah blah.

1. Teaching kids bigotry is one of the best ways of showing you are not capable or desirable for raising children, your own or others.

2. The nurse was disciplined for breaching her professional code of conduct with regard to influencing those in a vulnerable situation. Safeguarding is, thankfully, something her employer took seriously.

3. When you open a business, you have an obligation to ensure you cater for all. it is nothing to do with your home, it is a hotel and anybody should be able to use it equally without checking if you are subhuman in the eyes of the owner. The legislation on disability access is founded on the same principle.

Now... if that is persecuting Christians, then perhaps it is about time they realised their odious bigotry has no place in society? Interesting that if they took heed of other parts of their bible, they could get on without upsetting normal people, but no. They, like most other religions feel the need to force their silly rituals and interpretation of morals on others. Go away, and stay there please.

Nothing to do with the sad tragic situation in Pakistan noted above. The country is falling into a deep abyss in which religion is an excuse not a reason. I have many friends from there and my brother is presently based there with an aid organisation and I am deeply saddened by the attempts to enforce a religious interpretation onto peoples' lives. the people there don't deserve it.

Another reason to disestablish superstition here before beardie and his fruitcakes beef up their position in the Lords.....

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 10:47 AM

Couldn't help but notice yet another touch of the anti-Muslim agenda since the previous efforts have now well and truely gone crashing down in flames.
There is no religion with clean hands when it comes to the persecution, torture and killing of non-believers - Christianity least of all.
Any church in the ascendency will take advantage of its influence to marginalise and even crush opposition to that dominance, Islam, Christian, Jewish - you name them, the more powerful they are, the more oppressively they behave.
And of course, some churches don't confine their persecution to their spiritual opponents. Christianity is still rightfully smarting from the exposures of the events of the last century (at least) when Christian clergymen, at their leisure, sexually abused and raped young children in their care and under their influence. I'm still getting over the revulsion brought on over the last two nights by the television drama-documentary covering the events surrounding the rape and sexual abuse of possibly over 100 children: in the Irish Republic, in the part of Ireland which remains an echo of the British Empire, and in America: by that good Christian, Father Brendan Smythe, fully protected an assisted in his endevours by his superiors - may they all burn in their own particular hell!
No one church holds the monopoly of persecution and abuse; given enough power, they are all prone to it, and the 'nya, nya, they're more oppressive than we are' just doesn't wash any more. The further all religions and their fairy stories are kept away from having any real influence over our everyday lives other than as spiritual advisors, the safer we and our children will be, and even then, they need to be carefully monitored.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 10:47 AM

So, they have it coming?
They deserve to be persecuted, for the sins of the long dead?

I doubt such views would be expressed about any other group.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 11:15 AM

A Christian parable (def. a simple story illustrating a religious or moral lesson).
About ten years ago a family of itinerant workers were working their way around farms in (I think Central America, but it's on record).
They sent the youngest child, aged about 11 to get water and she was raped by a farmer, leaving her with two sexually transmitted diseases and a pregnancy.
The doctors of the Catholic hospital where she was treated over the next few months hid her pregnancy from the parents until it was past the legal date when a termination could be carried out, and then refused to carry out the operation which, they said, was contrary to their Christian principles anyway, despite the fact that they admitted that letting the pregnancy run its full course would put the girl's life at severe risk.
The parents appealed to to the highest authority of the church to allow the termination to go ahead; the reply they received was that the girl should "Embrace her martyrdom with joy and gratitude".
Good Christians all maybe, human beings - answers on a postcard!!
This from memory, but I have looked it up for such discussions in the past, and will happily do so again to refresh my opinion of what religion is all about.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 11:23 AM

So you really do think they all deserve to be persecuted!

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 11:44 AM

Jesus did, Keith, so who am I - or you- to argue with him. Rejoice and be exceeding glad, already!

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Goose Gander
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 11:45 AM

What bile and hatred, particularly from Greg F. Please folks, try to remember that the Christians being persecuted and murdered all over the world (overwhelmingly poor, and non-white, I might add) are NOT the same Christians who abused children, went crusading, or burned heretics. Unless you believe in some twisted variety of guilt by association or collective guilt, then there is absolutely NO justification for the foul gloating of Jim Carrol and Katlaughing. You are no better than the bigots who blame Muslims (as a group) for 9-11, etc.   

Richard Bridge, thank for attempting a reasonable response to the specific issue of blasphemy laws in Pakistan. Religious persecution in Pakistan is directed not just toward Christians but also toward other minorities.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 11:46 AM

Who in particular - children in the priest's care, Christians at the hands of other religions, other religions at the hands of Christians?
Nobody should be persecuted and abused, religiously, politically - not even because you support the wrong football team.
The point you appear to be shuffling around is that any religion, given the opportunity, can and possibly will persecute; it appears to come with the territory. It is the poison that kills, not the name on the box.
And as for persecution and its effects being a thing of the past, the effects that Christian abuse had, and is still having on the lives of the victims was underlined starkly in last night's drama-documentary - dim and distant past my arse!
Nobody deserves to be abused, and singling out one or other abuse as being less, more, older, more up-to-date is being, well, selective, to say the least
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 12:11 PM

So, they have it coming?
They deserve to be persecuted, for the sins of the long dead?

I doubt such views would be expressed about any other group.

Huh? According to my Catholic school education, we all have it coming because of the sins of the long-dead, namely the sins of Adam 'n' Eve. They call it original sin, and every man-jack among us is smeared with it - until we get christened into Catholicism, of course!

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 12:16 PM

"What bile and hatred, "
Not really G.G. - it is the influence weilded by those in a position to spiritually blackmail us into doing their will and to accept what they hand out which does the evil, not what any particular spirtual group calls itself.
Religion can, and often is a power for good, it can be, and often is a massive power for evil - and it is evil to suggest, as has been here, that one persecutor is any worse or better than another, or that one spiritual ifluence is any more or less dangerous than another.
It is the power to spiritually manipulate that is the cause of all religious persecution.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 12:22 PM

A post of mine has vanished.

Keith, yours of 0652 Mudcat time may be factually accurate but is not a rebuttal of what I said about the assassination of Shahbaz Bhatti.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 12:28 PM

I didn't want to mix this up with the Bhatti thing.

Dear Fluids, while I largely agree with your thrust about Xtians here in the UK, Nurse Petrie was NOT in breach of her professional code of conduct and did not force her own opinion on anyone about anything. She was, in due course, reinstated: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/4787050/Prayer-nurse-Caroline-Petrie-returns-to-work.html


Xtians abroad seem to have a tougher time of it, but the fundies in the USA and in Africa seem to go out of their way to make sure that they convey a hateful impression of Xtianity.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Silas
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 12:33 PM

"report by Vatican-approved agency Aid to the Church in Need suggested 75% of religious persecution around the world is directed against Christians, affecting 100 million people."

Hmmmm

Does anyone really believe this?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 12:36 PM

What bile and hatred, particularly from Greg F.

Hey, take it up with Jesus, for chrissake! He said it, not me.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 12:38 PM

P.S. there, Goose: Why aren't you rejoicing and exceeding glad?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Stringsinger
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 12:54 PM

Christian Persecution is overblown. They have done more persecuting than being persecuted. Of course there are Christians and Christians, not all cut from the same cloth.

But it's all theology which is one of the problems we have today. Theology does not define race, or people(s) particularly well. There are Jews and Jews, Islamists and Islamists, Buddhists and Buddhists, plug in your theology here _____and_______.

There are some people in this world who do good things for others regardless or maybe in spite of their religious beliefs.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Silas
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 01:06 PM

"report by Vatican-approved agency Aid to the Church in Need suggested 75% of religious persecution around the world is directed against Christians, affecting 100 million people."

Hmmmm

Does anyone really believe this?



Or, more to the point, does anyone really give a fuck?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 01:31 PM

An awful lot of persecution is visited on Catholics by the Catholic church. Adhesion to the Church's illiberal doctrines on abortion and contraception have led to millions of unwanted pregnancies and increased dissemination of HIV in poverty-stricken third-world countries. Cast out the beam.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 01:38 PM

Overblown? I beg to disagree! Actually, its total & unequivocal bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 02:03 PM

Sadly, within the history of Christianity, you may find that more Christians have been persecuted by other Christians (wearing slightly different banners, colours and different ideas on the one true faith), than by any other religion. Christians themselves have persecuted other religions too. I am not saying that in some countries many Christians are not persecuted. They are. But the words "kettle", "pot" and "black" do come to mind. What goes around comes around all too often, and not just in religion, which makes for a really sad future for humankind.

Today I attended an early St Patrick's Day celebration. It was purposely organised to be eceumenical. A Priest gave the blessing but was not speaking to any one religion in the room. He was speaking to everyone and praying with everyone. He made mention of how today was a mixture of faiths and what can be achieved when faiths work together. It was a great speech and one that was warming to hear.

I hear that and then come home to read this thread. It is my hope that the Father today was closer to being right about what we can all achieve by embracing each other more than what will happen if we do not bury of past differences. These were great words and it is with great hope I would want to believe them

I suspect Islamophobia will raise its head a lot in this thread potentially. In the end what we are fearing is each other. Our differences, when put aside, can allow that we see we have far more in common with each other than we don't. My vote would go to building on that hope rather than potentially breeding hatred of differences.

Just a few thoughts

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,999--darned memory
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 02:32 PM

As ye sow so shall ye reap.

YES, X-ians are persecuted, as are Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, atheists, Hindis, Taoists, Republicans, Liberals, Democrats, and people who are different than those around them. No one deserves it.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 02:38 PM

I was prepared to meet apathy to the plight of these people.
I am shocked at the hostility that has been shown.
I am sure that none of you have any evidence that they have ever done any harm, so your reaction can fairly be described as bigoted (which is highly ironic in the case of one individual here).

They are an oppressed minority in their own lands.
Their oppression has driven them into deep poverty.
Their persecution encompasses imprisonment, torture and murder.

If you really have no compassion for their plight, you are lacking in humanity, (I.M.O.)

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,999
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 02:41 PM

I am having difficulty understanding what it is you want, Keith. Could you please explain?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 02:47 PM

Amen, Bruce- Its pretty well ubiquitous,none deserve it, but that doesn't seem to make much difference, does it?

As Sam Clemens styled it: the God damned human race.

And you, Keith, are sadly lacking in the ability to think critically.(I.M.O.)

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 03:28 PM

I want nothing 999.
This was a news story here today because of the Archbishops statement, and it touched on foreign aid, a recent thread, so I thought it was worth a thread.
I was curious what kind of response there would be.
I never expected this.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,999
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 03:47 PM

OK, thanks Keith.

Here is Keith's link:

A Roman Catholic cardinal has accused the UK government of operating an "anti-Christian foreign policy".
Cardinal Keith O'Brien has attacked plans to increase aid to Pakistan to more than £445m, without any commitment to religious freedom for Christians.
Speaking in Glasgow, Cardinal O'Brien called on Foreign Secretary William Hague to seek human rights guarantees.
The Foreign Office said it raised concerns and lobbied governments about persecution wherever it arose.
The cardinal's call came as a report by Vatican-approved agency Aid to the Church in Need suggested 75% of religious persecution around the world was directed against Christians, affecting 100 million people.
'Aid pressure'
The church highlighted the assassination of Pakistani minority affairs minister Shahbaz Bhatti at the start of March.
Mr Bhatti was the only Christian member of the cabinet in Pakistan.
Cardinal O'Brien said: "I urge William Hague to obtain guarantees from foreign governments before they are given aid.
"To increase aid to the Pakistan government when religious freedom is not upheld and those who speak up for religious freedom are gunned down is tantamount to an anti-Christian foreign policy.
"Pressure should now be put on the government of Pakistan - and the governments of the Arab world as well - to ensure that religious freedom is upheld, the provision of aid must require a commitment to human rights."
He said the report's estimate of persecution against Christians was "intolerable and unacceptable".
"We ask that the religious freedoms we enjoy to practise our faith, will soon be extended to every part of the world and that the tolerance we show to other faiths in our midst will be reciprocated everywhere," he added.
'International solidarity'
Foreign Office Minister Alistair Burt said: "Freedom of religion is a fundamental human right and we condemn and deplore religious persecution in any form.
"The effective promotion of human rights, including freedom of religion, is at the heart of our foreign policy."
He said Britain raised concerns and lobbied governments about religious freedom and persecution wherever it occurred, including in Pakistan.
"It is vital that Pakistan guarantees the rights of all its citizens, regardless of their faith or ethnicity," he added.
"We will continue to press for religious freedoms to be upheld in Pakistan and around the world."
The report also highlighted the Christian population of Iraq, which it says has gone from an estimated 1.4 million to as low as 150,000 over the past 25 years.
Archbishop Bashar Warda of Erbil, in Iraq, said: "The Persecuted and Forgotten report and the work of Aid to Church in Need are critical to us as members of the worldwide Christian community.
"This information will significantly contribute to building international support and solidarity for Christians around the world where our human rights and our religious freedom have been stripped away."



I don't think there's anything wrong with that position. I don't see ANY need to give money to dictators, racists or bigots, regardless who they persecute.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 03:58 PM

Yeah, well, my imaginary friend can beat your imaginary friend with one hand tied behind his/her back.

Time we progressed beyond this mindset of the average twelve year old.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 04:10 PM

"I am having difficulty understanding what it is you want, Keith. Could you please explain?"
Take comfort in the fact that you are not alone; It certainly wasn't what he received on the Muslim prejdice thread.
"I am shocked at the hostility that has been shown."
No you're not Keith - you got your answer on the previous thread when you attempted to single out Pakistanis as perverts.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 04:38 PM

A lot of the posts here look very much like bile and hatred to me. "Serve them right" is the mindset of bigots.

For most of its history Islam has been represented by relative tolerance - as reflected by the survival of sizeable Christian minorities throughout the Middle East, which have been there since long before the time of Mohammed.

Persecution is evil, and is not in fact consistent with Islam any more than it is with Christianity. I don't know any Muslims who do not see it as shameful when this kind of thing is justified in the name of their religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 04:44 PM

"What have the Romans ever done for us?"

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 04:45 PM

Ah, the pinnacle of Mudcat ugliness, revisited....

Persecution is persecution. Most times, the victims of that persecution are innocent, despite the fact that other members of the persecuted group may have committed acts of persecution. And so the cycle goes on - those in power rationalize violence against the meeker members of another group, as just retaliation for the acts of those in power in the other group.

Rape is being used as a weapon of war in west-central african nations, usually rape by Muslim men against Christian women. Does somebody care to use the Spanish Inquisition or the pope's opposition to abortion as justification for such an atrocity?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 04:56 PM

Jim, your quote ""Embrace her martyrdom with joy and gratitude"."
does not give one Google hit.
Are you sure you have it right?
You have previously tried to pass off some apocryphal nonsense as fact.
Any evidence for this story?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 05:14 PM

The story Jim refers to is here. It happened in Brazil in 2008-2009. The nine-year-old girl had an abortion, and she and her family were excommunicated. A followup story shows that there were some at the highest levels of the Vatican who disagreed with the actions of the bishop in Brazil.

Last year, a Mercy Sister in Phoenix was excommunicated because she voted to allow an abortion at a Catholic hospital to save the life of the mother. Later, the bishop withdrew the hospital's status as a Catholic hospital.

Progressive Catholics and many moderates generally think both bishops are assholes, trying to win political points by grandstanding against abortion.

Some people use such events as an opportunity to condemn all Catholics, even those who work against asshole bishops.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 05:49 PM

Not condemning Catholics, Joe - its a matter of condemming assholes regardless of the specific version of "faith" or whichever imaginary friend they care to worship - -

Assholes is assholes.

Period.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 06:16 PM

Thanks for clearing that up Joe.
I recall an Irish child rape victim. The government tried to prevent her leaving the country to get an abortion.
The EU stepped in but the delay and stress must have seemed like another rape to the family.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 06:40 PM

So Keith - why aren't you rejoicing & exceeding glad?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 06:45 PM

They must only be counting persecution by other religions against Christianity. Right now what the Moslems are doing to each other far outnumbers what they are doing against any Christians, who are only a part of their Western target area anyway. And the Christians in our military are having a fine old time of it getting the ragheads... which wasn't counted either, I bet.
And they probably counted the fighting against our invasion as anti-Christian too, which of course they are trying to make it be but it was originally against the invader, whoever they were.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,999
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 06:52 PM

Religion

Religious Beliefs. There has been religious freedom for centuries in Ethiopia. The Ethiopian Orthodox Church is the oldest sub-Saharan African church, and the first mosque in Africa was built in the Tigre province. Christianity and Islam have coexisted peacefully for hundreds of years, and the Christian kings of Ethiopia gave Muhammad refuge during his persecution in southern Arabia, causing the Prophet to declare Ethiopia exempt from Muslim holy wars. It is not uncommon for Christians and Muslims to visit each other's house of worship to seek health or prosperity.

The dominant religion has been Orthodox Christianity since King 'Ēzānā of Axum adopted Christianity in 333. It was the official religion during the reign of the monarchy and is currently the unofficial religion. Because of the spread of Islam in Africa, Ethiopian Orthodox Christianity was severed from the Christian world. This has led to many unique characteristics of the church, which is considered the most Judaic formal Christian church.

The Ethiopian Orthodox Church lays claim to the original Ark of the Covenant, and replicas (called tabotat ) are housed in a central sanctuary in all churches; it is the tabot that consecrates a church. The Ethiopian Orthodox Church is the only established church that has rejected the doctrine of Pauline Christianity, which states that the Old Testament lost its binding force after the coming of Jesus. The Old Testament focus of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church includes dietary laws similar to the kosher tradition, circumcision after the eighth day of birth, and a Saturday sabbath.

Judaism historically was a major religion, although the vast majority of Ethiopian Jews (called Beta Israel) reside in Israel today. The Beta Israel were politically powerful at certain times. Ethiopian Jews often were persecuted during the last few hundred years; that resulted in massive secret airlifts in 1984 and 1991 by the Israeli military.

Islam has been a significant religion in Ethiopia since the eighth century but has been viewed as the religion of the "outside" by many Christians and scholars. Non-Muslims traditionally have interpreted Ethiopian Islam as hostile. This prejudice is a result of the dominance of Christianity.

Polytheistic religions are found in the lowlands, which also have received Protestant missionaries. These Evangelical churches are fast growing, but Orthodox Christianity and Islam claim the adherence of 85 to 90 percent of the population.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 07:03 PM

. . . the usual suspects. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 08:42 PM

How it works when deciding who is persecuted and who is right




more, it you care to follow the metaphors...

http://28.media.tumblr.com/Y8jvP17tWljg9pek5NodYGXFo1_500.gif


http://30.media.tumblr.com/Y8jvP17tWjlmatvjpPYA3Fogo1_500.gif

http://30.media.tumblr.com/Y8jvP17tWjikd6uucXVho9Afo1_500.gif

http://24.media.tumblr.com/Y8jvP17tWjr070vw3i20WRq5o1_500.gif



http://www.boingboing.net/images/ttdb091410.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 02:19 AM

Greg, you keep asking "So, Keith: are you rejoicing and exceeding glad, or not? "

No Greg I am not, but then I am not being persecuted.
I see people suffering, and am saddened.
I thought that was normal and human, but I am not you.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 03:57 AM

"Jim, your quote ""Embrace her martyrdom with joy and gratitude"."
does not give one Google hit. Are you sure you have it right?"
Thanks for that clarification Joe - it was never my intention to attack catholics with this story, just another example of the abuse of power, which I believe can come with all religions. I do notice that you say only some of the Rome hierarchy disproved of the events described.
Interesting that Keith attempted to cast doubt on it though!
I seem to sense a pattern in all of this.
Earlier encounters with Keith include:
His defence of the killing by the Israeli army, of Turkish aid bringers attempting to break the Gaza blockade.
Defence of the use of chemical weapons on Palestinians (by disputing their chemical nature).
The defence of those in command at the time of the Bloody Sunday Massacre in Derry, absolving those officers in charge and overriding the suggestion that those in charge are the ones ultimately responsible for what happens in situations such as these (the buck stops here?).
The defence of violent sectarian marches (or jolly days out, as he passed them off). The three nights of rioting in Belfast which ensued from one of these, he passed of as being the fault of children - on the single word a priest)   
There are more - but for me, the most telling was the Muslim prejudice marathon, where he attempted to prove, even to the extent of doctoring his evidence by removing awkward passages, that British Pakistanis were cultural degenerates. At one spectacular point he appeared to claim that, as the Catholic clergy had their own customs and traditions, they might be described as a distinct ethnic group, therefore to criticise them for clercal child abuse might be described as 'racism' - I think we were all more than a little gobsmacked at that one.
Keith appears, to me at least, to have a taste for holy wars and racial conflicts, being quite happy to take up the cause of one side against the other.
In response to the trouncing he took on the last thread, he has opened this thread, apparently to once again attack a specific religion/race.
Too much of a coincidence for me, I'm afraid.
As far as I'm concerned, all religions are capable of, and have been guilty of religious intolerance and persucution at one time or another and, as is happening in Ireland at present, need to have the power and influence they wield closely examined and, if necessary, brought in check.
To invite us to support one over another is inflammatory sectarian and, on occasion, racist. The suggestion that brand A might be preferable to brand B is a non-starter, to me anyway.
Another couple of 'religious parables' then I'm off to the Inishowen singing week-end, a lovely event held about half an hour's drive away from Derry City, attended by Brits, Irish, Americans, Catholics, Protestants, atheists..... all gathered for the songs and the pleasure of each others company - not to mention the Guinness.
Parable 1
Over the last couple of weeks the US Supreme Court has ruled as legal, the actions of a Christian sect who assembled at the funeral of a soldier killed in Afghnistan and hurled abuse at the mourners and at the coffin of the dead soldier. They claimed that because the soldier had been homosexual and, as "God hates fags", his death was a punishment for being gay.
Parable 2
A state in the US (may be Arkansas, but not sure) is attempting to make the killing of doctors who perform pregnancy terminations 'justifiable homicide' - in practical terms, unpunishable.
Funny old world!!
Jim Carroll
PS Sorry this is so long Keith - bear with it!

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 03:57 AM

Well, I can't agree with the cardinal who has accused the UK government of operating an "anti-Christian foreign policy" by supporting the government in Pakistan. That's a bit far-fetched.

Still, Christians ARE persecuted in many lands, as are people of other faiths. There has been a significant change in the treatment of Christian minorities in Arab lands since about 1990. Christian communities that have existed in Arab lands since the first and second centuries, have all but disappeared in many nations. Most significant is the Christian population of Baghdad, now mostly living as refugees in a variety of nations. Christian Palestinians have suffered the same fate, and the story is the same for Christians in most Arab lands.

Mind you, much of this persecution may be in retaliation against aggression by Christians of European ancestry - but most Arab Christians are Arab, not European; and their Christianity is Middle Eastern, not European. They got their Christianity before it arrived in Europe.

Expanding on what I said above, the victims of persecution are usually innocent victims of the battles between the people in power - and the people in power never to seem to suffer much.

If you can see justice in the persecution of innocent members of any group, you need to take another look at your principles.

-Joe-


PS to Greg F and whoever else cares to use the term - the "imaginary friend" shit is offensive, rude, and bigoted. You know it, and you use the term with intent to insult. If you don't understand or don't appreciate what other people hold sacred, common manners require you to shut the fuck up refrain from disparagement.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 04:07 AM

Joe, you have not responded to Jim's tirade against me.
Did you remember that I have refuted as a lie evry one of his accusations.
Can any pressure be put on him to desist?

Jim, your quote really did not get any hits.
It is unlikely to be a quote.
Last time the whole story and the quote turned out to be made up.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 04:22 AM

Well, Jim, the bishop in Brazil may not have used the phrase ""Embrace her martyrdom with joy and gratitude" - but the language he used was equally appalling, and he was excoriated for it in the progressive Catholic press in the U.S. It's hard to believe, but the Brazilian bishop does seem to enjoy strong support among some members of the "pro-life" movement, who appear to applaud his callousness.

It was South Dakota that proposed legislation that would declare "homicide is permissible if committed by a person 'while resisting an attempt to harm' an unborn fetus." While it's easy to infer the law would protect those who attack someone performing an abortion, that is apparently not stated in the proposed legislation. The proposal, I understand, has been "tabled indefinitely."

I think most Americans (and most American jurists) regret the Supreme Court decision allowing an anti-homosexual Christian sect to demonstrate at funerals. However, we Americans take our freedom of speech very seriously - we think the funeral demonstrators are appalling, but we can't imagine restricting their right to demonstrate. That's a basic philosophical difference between Americans and Europeans, and I see it all the time here at Mudcat. Europeans think that authority must act to control harmful speech; and Americans are appalled at that idea, even though they may be appalled by the speech that they refuse to control.

Keith, I have to say that in most circumstances, I agree with Jim. His tone may be unnecessarily harsh, but he speaks the truth. You tend to value "correct ideology" over justice and fair treatment of the oppressed. I agree with you on some matters, but I usually find myself agreeing with Jim while still being really pissed off at him. It's not a black-and-white world. Please don't take these things personally. I think the world of you both. You're good people.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 04:32 AM

...and I suspect that Jim Carroll would grumpily admit that he has a fair amount of respect for you, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 04:37 AM

I am not guilty of those accusations.
I refute every one.
They are lies.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 04:44 AM

OK, so this is what Jim said, and I guess I have to say that Keith has a valid complaint and that Jim has unfairly distorted Keith's positions in a cheap attempt to ridicule his thinking. Here's what Jim said:

His defence of the killing by the Israeli army, of Turkish aid bringers attempting to break the Gaza blockade.
Defence of the use of chemical weapons on Palestinians (by disputing their chemical nature).
The defence of those in command at the time of the Bloody Sunday Massacre in Derry, absolving those officers in charge and overriding the suggestion that those in charge are the ones ultimately responsible for what happens in situations such as these (the buck stops here?).
The defence of violent sectarian marches (or jolly days out, as he passed them off). The three nights of rioting in Belfast which ensued from one of these, he passed of as being the fault of children - on the single word a priest)   
There are more - but for me, the most telling was the Muslim prejudice marathon, where he attempted to prove, even to the extent of doctoring his evidence by removing awkward passages, that British Pakistanis were cultural degenerates. At one spectacular point he appeared to claim that, as the Catholic clergy had their own customs and traditions, they might be described as a distinct ethnic group, therefore to criticise them for clercal child abuse might be described as 'racism' - I think we were all more than a little gobsmacked at that one.
Keith appears, to me at least, to have a taste for holy wars and racial conflicts, being quite happy to take up the cause of one side against the other.
In response to the trouncing he took on the last thread, he has opened this thread, apparently to once again attack a specific religion/race.
Too much of a coincidence for me, I'm afraid.

Keith, do you care to respond, and tell us specifically what your positions are on these issues?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Will Fly
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 05:07 AM

A few years ago, I went to a talk at the tiny Pavilion Theatre in Brighton - part of the annual Brighton Festival - to hear a discussion with a guest speaker on the subjects of science and religion. The speaker, a lucid, intelligent and charming man, delivered a calm, quiet and rational exposition of his views on religion. Views which, as an atheist since my early teens, I thoroughly agreed with, and agree with today. The violence and persecution committed by all religions against each other, cloaked in the name of "god" and "faith" and "belief" are truly disgusting - and have been in existence since the creation of those religions. It's very clear that no amount of writing, lecturing, preaching, praying or proselytising can stem the flow of "man's inhumanity to man".

That's my belief, never stated on Mudcat before and, having said it once, I shan't say it again.

The festival speaker, by the way, was Richard Dawkins.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 05:24 AM

Defending the killing of Turkish aid bringers is a gross and dishonest simplification of a complex issu.
I deplored the use of smoke on civillians, but correctly denied that smoke is classified as a chemical weapon.
Bloody Sunday, the guilty soldiers were not acting under orders to shoot protesters.
Parades. Sinn Fein did not regard them as sectarian, defended them and agreed with them. I took their stance. The only trouble in the hundreds of marches was before the first march, and the trouble makers were said by local people to be children and bussed in dissidents.
That I doctored awkward passages, straight lie.
that British Pakistanis were cultural degenerates, straight lie.
to once again attack a specific religion/race. straight lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 05:55 AM

Well - there you have it - (un)fortunately all these are verifiable by the relevant threads - do check; Keith has a habit of going in circles and ambushing himself from behind.
"a cheap attempt "
Hardly cheap Joe -do y know how much all this typing costs me in nail varnish?
Happy St Pat's day all,
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 06:23 AM

PS Do find it extraordinary that Keith denies having doctored his evidence, despite the fact he did so in the public gaze - sums him up really
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 06:34 AM

Jim's false claim, and me showing it false is here.
thread.cfm?threadid=135090&messages=1357&page=1&desc=yes#3112299

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Silas
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 06:46 AM

"PS to Greg F and whoever else cares to use the term - the "imaginary friend" shit is offensive, rude, and bigoted. You know it, and you use the term with intent to insult. If you don't understand or don't appreciate what other people hold sacred, common manners require you to shut the fuck up refrain from disparagement."

Whilst it is true that the sensibilities of any religious group are easily offended, either deliberately or by accident, the impact that these groups, Christianity in particular, has on the lifestyle and moral choices of us non-religious people is much more than offensive, it is dangerous and causes much suffering. It affects simple everyday things like shopping and entertainment, it dictates things that we are allowed to see and are not allowed to see. It creates poverty whilst being in possession of enormous wealth; it creates suffering and hardship whist promoting love and peace. It stifles research and promotes myth and fable as an absolute truth. It promotes homophobia and sexism and it indoctrinates children with complex guilt problems.
Now, personally, I find it really offensive that my lifestyle is dictated to by a religious cult that I have no interest in and have no wish to join.
So, you may forgive us for not worrying too much about religious sects persecuting each other, let them get on with it as far as I am concerned, and whilst they are beating each other up whilst at the same time preaching love and tolerance, the rest of us can get on with our lives.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 07:01 AM

If a secular or atheistic state persecutes minorities, is that OK as long as they are not faith minorities?
If a reigious state persecutes a minority, is that wrong as long as they are not a faith minority?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Silas
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 07:04 AM

Sorry, is this addressed to me?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 07:08 AM

Yes Silas, sorry for not clarifying.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Silas
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 07:14 AM

Persecution of any group, minority or not is clearly wrong. They all do it to each other and have done for centuries. I can't see it stopping any time now, and for any one 'side' to cry foul is a bit rich really.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 07:21 AM

So you think that the persecution is wrong, but they just should not complain about being persecuted, even if the victims have never harmed anyone in their poor, downtrodden lives?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Silas
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 07:25 AM

Oh no. They can complain as much as they like, but they should not expect anyone to listen or take notice whislt in another part of the world they are doing exactly the same thing to another 'persecuted minority'

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 07:28 AM

Turkish Aid Ships for Gaza.
The Israelis delivered the aid from all the ships to Gaza and harmed no one, except on the one ship where passengers tried to kill them.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Silas
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 07:30 AM

"Turkish Aid Ships for Gaza.
The Israelis delivered the aid from all the ships to Gaza and harmed no one, except on the one ship where passengers tried to kill them."

Really??

Are we living on the same planet here or what?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 07:39 AM

Each ship was taken to an Israeli port, unloaded and searched.
The aid was then taken straight to Gaza, but was not accepted for weeks.

There was only violence on one ship.

I know this is a complex issue, and we debated it for many weeks.
I am accused of supporting murder.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Silas
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 08:02 AM

Anyone who supports the terrorist state of Israel in my opinion supports murder.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 08:14 AM

An opinion to which you are entitled.
You do not state it as an unequivocal fact, or suggest that all my views are worthless because of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 08:32 AM

Silas, sorry I missed this one.
"Oh no. They can complain as much as they like, but they should not expect anyone to listen or take notice whilst in another part of the world they are doing exactly the same thing to another 'persecuted minority' "

So the oppressed Christians in the slums of Cairo or Beijing, should not complain because Christians might be persecuting someone in ..er, I can not think of anywhere actually, but hypothetically?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 08:43 AM

"Anyone who supports the terrorist state of Israel in my opinion supports murder."

I feel the same, Silas, about anyone who supports Palestine.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Silas
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 08:44 AM

No Keith, I clearly said that they could complain as much as they like...

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Silas
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 08:46 AM

Well 999, I would expect nothing less on an American dominated site.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 08:48 AM

This is typical Christian hypocrisy to shout about persecution and ill treatment and then in the next breath make noises about 'gypsies and travellers living just a bit too close' who are generally just as Christian in their beliefs. I don't often hear much compassion there.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 11:34 AM

"Well 999, I would expect nothing less on an American dominated site." Silas

Since Guest/999 is Canadian, Silas, I don't think the opinion he espouses is nationalistic.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Silas
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 11:39 AM

American, Canadian.....?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 12:28 PM

Just a quick note to M'unlearned friend regarding his comments a few posts up.

I am glad (though somewhat disorientated) to see you agreeing with the main thrust of my last post. Keep it up, your journey to the dark side will be complete...

You mentioned the case of the nurse I raised. I don't need links to newspaper stories, I work for / interfere in (delete as you feel fit) healthcare regulation. I could get the full file down but "to add to debate in a folk music forum" isn't a good enough excuse. I do know, as was made public by her employer, that after due warnings as per their HR polices, she was referred to the Nurses and Midwifery Council (NMC) and the case was dropped after she agreed that her approach was not consistent with the expectations of her registration. As a result, she was reinstated.

I have been involved in similar issues regarding infection control. (Large crucifix on a chain, bangles on wrists, arm coverings on female Muslim nurses and doctors to name a few.) In almost every case, common sense prevailed, even when draconian written policies had to be rewritten to be workable.

One overriding aspect of healthcare and religion which is to everybody's credit is that in the main, many healthcare professionals put their work before their creed. Hence seeing the naked body of a member of the opposite sex, giving contraception advice, dispensing morning after pills etc are carried out by many people who outside of their work would feel uncomfortable, but accept that not everybody shares their creed, nor would they be expected to. Their professionalism takes precedence, and we should all be grateful for that.

the media stories of issues are the few, not the many.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 01:33 PM



Quite how people killed by a mob or jailed on spurious grounds can manage at the same time to be doing exactly the same thing in some other part of the world is very hard to see. That applies equally where the victims are Muslim, Christian, Jewish or whatever.

Natural thread drift is one thing, but the intentional diversion a thread about religious persecution in which innocent people are suffering, in the way that has been done here, is something else. It is is very easy indeed to start new threads to enable a discussion of separate topics that arises.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Lighter
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 01:46 PM

All questions of who's evilest aside, it really isn't surprising that Christians are make up the largest numbner of people being persecuted for their religious beliefs worldwide.

Because Christians live everywhere. In any society in which the Christian community is small enough to be persecuted at all, they are likely to be the largest of all religious minorities being persecuted.

Add to that the fact that any other religious minorities being persecuted at the same time and in the same place will usually be members of relatively small, relatively regional faiths unless they are Muslims or Jews.

All religious persecution is abhorrent. However, the fact that Christians are suffering most of it, numerically, in the 21st century proves nothing except that some benighted regimes and populations hate Christians.

In the past, monotheistic religions have found it very easy to get revved up about killing others in the name of the one God. But in the modern world, few active monotheists either do this or recommend it. They're too busy worrying about their own lives. If Muslim fanatics are behind most persecution of Christians, that's not because they're Muslims, it's because they're fanatics.

("Fundamentalists" doesn't go far enough. Christian, Jewish, and Muslim fundamentalists are overwhelmingly peaceful. "Fanatics" are another category entirely.)

So let's demand that all religious persecution stop everywhere. Now we can move on to the next problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 01:50 PM

So, here's Silas and his reason for condemnation of all things religious:

Whilst it is true that the sensibilities of any religious group are easily offended, either deliberately or by accident, the impact that these groups, Christianity in particular, has on the lifestyle and moral choices of us non-religious people is much more than offensive, it is dangerous and causes much suffering. It affects simple everyday things like shopping and entertainment, it dictates things that we are allowed to see and are not allowed to see. It creates poverty whilst being in possession of enormous wealth; it creates suffering and hardship whist promoting love and peace. It stifles research and promotes myth and fable as an absolute truth. It promotes homophobia and sexism and it indoctrinates children with complex guilt problems.

Yes, Silas, you're right. All those things happen in religious groups, particularly among Christians. And you know what? - these things happen in every group. Those religious people who create poverty and suffering and hardship and homophobia and sexism, are rarely the same religious people who promote love and peace.
Every group has its assholes - when you condemn all members of a group for the actions of that group's asshole minority, that's what most people call bigotry.

Yes, there are many religious people who use their religion as an instrument of hatred and oppression - and that conduct is inexcusable. But that's not the way of most religious people. I look around in church on Sunday morning and a see a vast majority of good, gentle, generous, joyful, tolerant people.

And I see a few assholes, too.

For religious people, belief in God is part of their essence, part of who they are. It is sacred to them. When you dismiss their belief with an "imaginary friend" quip, you slap them in the face. And you know damn well you're insulting them when you use a phrase like that.

I think that an essential part of showing respect for other people, is showing respect for what others hold as sacred. You don't have to espouse what others believe to respect their sense of what's sacred - but if you attack their beliefs (or what you think they believe), you attack them.

Every group has members who cannot tolerate the beliefs and actions of others. I'd call those people fundamentalists (Lighter calls them "fanatics," which might be better). Even among those who profess no religious belief, there are those who cannot tolerate the beliefs and actions of others. Is there really much difference between intolerant believers, and intolerant unbelievers?

If you're a tolerant person, you'll quit the "imaginary friend" shit. It's offensive.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 02:39 PM

Joe and I have been on the opposite sides of more arguments than any other person I ever met (almost, but I hid the body real well).
On this issue I support him 100%.

I fail to see why religions and religious people are fair game and the season's open year 'round. The large majority--99%--are just people. The 1% who do bad stuff should be punished without question. But that's about breaking the law; it's not about being religious. imo

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 03:27 PM

If you're a tolerant person, you'll quit the "imaginary friend" shit. It's offensive.

OK, Joe, if you & others will quit the religious shit, which I and plenty of others find equally, if not more, offensive.

Deal?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 03:38 PM

How about we tolerate your disbelief, and you tolerate our belief, with neither of us making offensive comments about the other's belief/disbelief?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 03:39 PM

"If you're a tolerant person..."

If...

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 03:44 PM

Zero tolerence is the mantra around here.

christian or any kind of persecution is not a problem for people here unless it raises their taxes or effects their commute.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 04:00 PM

I think that most of our major religions deserve all the attacks they receive. On the whole, they are scurrilous, authoritarian and controlling organisations which often preach intolerance. On the other hand, people who have made a quiet choice to follow a particular creed should be regarded as beyond criticism. Neither side need hector individuals about their personal standpoints. But we do live in a world in which religion seems to be the default position, something I vehemently object to as an atheist. I have to look at religious iconography wherever I go (I'll get over it) and my children were forced to endure acts of worship at school. My atheist tax money goes to help religious organisations and my BBC licence money is wasted on Songs Of Praise - and the archbishop gets air-time on the telly and an influential seat in the Lords simply because he happens to hold the post of Head Of Myth. Big religion simply doesn't know how to keep its big mouth shut. So, as soon as believers put their heads above the parapet in terms of attempting to spread their beliefs to others, or of criticising those whose beliefs are not theirs, they are fair game for argument. There is often steel behind the deceptively gentle proselytising and there is expression of unwarranted certainty which is very worrying. Religious certainty may give comfort to many people but it also spawns suicide bombing, let's not forget. And, worst of all, it's a pack of lies. We get religious intolerance and religious persecution because we have religion. It goes, unavoidably, with the territory.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 04:12 PM

expression of unwarranted certainty which is very worrying.

On both sides?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 04:18 PM

No. You won't find real atheists expressing certainties. We leave that to believers. Real atheists speak in terms of vanishingly-small probabilities, and we use evidence and reason to back up what we think. Pursue that line if you like, but it was not the intention of my post to start that all over again.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 04:26 PM

"You won't find real atheists expressing certainties."

There seem to be a fair number of unreal atheists in that case.

As for "I have to look at religious iconography wherever I go" I'd be inclined to say that all of us are exposed to a far greater amount of materialist and implicitly anti-religious (and for that matter anti-humanist) imagery everywhere we look. Papers, TV. advertising...

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 04:40 PM

It would be a shame if this became yet another for/against religion thread.
I gave some of the reasons why I started this one.

Another was to have a comparison with the "Muslim prejudice" thread.

My prediction was that people would be less concerned for Christians.
I did not expect significant numbers to post IN FAVOUR of Christian persecution!

The other thread did not produce that to the same extent, though some sought to explain why prejudice might be engendered in otherwise tolerant people.

It poses the question, why overt hostility to all Christians expressed by significant numbers here, and not one contributor expressing hostility to all muslims on the other?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 05:37 PM

The reason keith is that Christians are perceived by the "liberals" who inhabit a large part of this forum, as conservatives.

Christianity and the Christian churches are seen as the only organised opposition and a danger to the the "liberal" ideology, which is turning the people of this country into an ineffectual irresponsible waste of space.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 06:27 PM

Christianity and the Christian churches are seen as the only organised opposition and a danger to the the "liberal" ideology...

??-

What planet do you spend most of your time on, Pharoah?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 06:49 PM

Help us out then Greg.
On the Muslim Prejudice thread, you were quite defensive towards Muslims, and very critical of Christians.
You never abused Muslims for having an imaginary friend.
On the Christian Persecution thread, you expressed nothing but contempt for Christians without mentioning Muslims at all.

Why the difference Greg?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Lighter
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 07:13 PM

I see things that disgust, offend, and anger me every day of my life, from addiction to crime to idiot politicians to cancer and tsunamis. Is anyone in favor of these things? I hope not.

Unless you're a transcendent mystic, feeling disgusted, offended, and ticked off by one thing and another is part of the price you pay for being alive. I recommend turning such feelings to less contentious purposes.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 08:24 PM

"You won't find real atheists expressing certainties."

There seem to be a fair number of unreal atheists in that case.

I couldn't agree more. To be fair, a lot of people who, rightly, utterly reject God do so with the same certainty as the religion that riled them in the first place preached God to them. I don't for one minute deny that certainty-atheists are really atheists, but they have yet to articulate their atheistic arguments fully. A bit of thought tells you that you can never prove God doesn't exist. The odds against his existence are absolutely huge, of course, but there will never be definitive proof.   

As for "I have to look at religious iconography wherever I go" I'd be inclined to say that all of us are exposed to a far greater amount of materialist and implicitly anti-religious (and for that matter anti-humanist) imagery everywhere we look. Papers, TV. advertising...

True again, but you are not comparing like with like. Religion is a completely human construct, and there's nothing more most of its adherents like than to impose it on the rest of us willy-nilly. There's even a current thread here "asking for prayers." If I'm on this very secular board and I have to read that rubbish I could well feel quite insulted as an atheist, but I'd far sooner ridicule it for what it is, or just ignore it. It's very rude, isn't it, but it happens all the time, and we accommodating pagans just fart in its general direction. The stuff you refer to is entirely reactive. But for religion it would not exist. To criticise it is to suggest that religion should get a free ride. Heaven forfend. I could suggest to you that the whole of nature, in its glorious ordinariness, is the ultimate anti-religious testament, and it certainly far outweighs all that stuff you're moaning about, if only all those blinded believers could see it.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 08:27 PM

The reason keith is that Christians are perceived by the "liberals" who inhabit a large part of this forum, as conservatives.

Christianity and the Christian churches are seen as the only organised opposition and a danger to the the "liberal" ideology, which is turning the people of this country into an ineffectual irresponsible waste of space.

Congratulations for winning the "mindless rant of the week" award.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 11:10 PM

It is interesting to me, Steve Shaw, that, dismissive as you are in your argument, in *print* you are respectful to God and Christianity- you capitalize the words. I would have expected you to say "a god" rather than "God".

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 02:09 AM

Steve, on this thread you say "I think that most of our major religions deserve all the attacks they receive."

On the other thread, you suggested in your early posts that all criticism of muslims was racist, and you defended Islam from all criticism.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 03:57 AM

Steve and Greg.....If my opinions seem so outlandish to you, why don't you have a stab at answering Keiths main point?

In reality, the Muslims are even more "conservative" than the Christians, by are not YET a danger to Western "liberalism"

Try to get your heads out of the sand....one doesn't have to live on another planet to see and understand what's happening on this one. :o)

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 04:39 AM

From Fluids: "I could get the full file down but "to add to debate in a folk music forum" isn't a good enough excuse. I do know, as was made public by her employer, that after due warnings as per their HR polices, she was referred to the Nurses and Midwifery Council (NMC) and the case was dropped after she agreed that her approach was not consistent with the expectations of her registration. As a result, she was reinstated."

What an extraordinary concept, even by your standards, Fluids.   Can you cite the prohibition the nurse was alleged to have breached?    There was a long thread here that set out the alleged offence and the excuses for the management. The NMC had the power (being judge, jury, and executioner in its own cause) permanently to exclude Nurse Petrie from her job, and she was thereby blackmailed into a "soft option".   I have some parallel experience in that I successfully saw off a trumped up allegation against me to the SRA by a judge who was displaying racial prejudice against a barrister instructed by me, and who tried just the same sledgehammer approach to head off my reporting him on the grounds of his prejudicial conduct. If what you say about your regulatory activities is true, it seems that you are on the side of the oppressors. Now why doesn't that surprise me?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 04:50 AM

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=118245

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 06:06 AM

Steve to a certain extent I agree that Songs of Praise is a waste of money spent on a licence fee but speaking from my elderly parents perspective they are not able to get to the nearest church now so they are happy for it to come to them. Personally I would rather it not be on, the theme tune alone grates on my nerves.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 06:22 AM

From BBC
Songs of Praise was an overnight success and on some Sundays as many as 12 million viewers viewed the programme. The average audience today, is still a remarkable 2.5 million, a great achievement in our multi-channel world.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 06:51 AM

The stuff you refer to is entirely reactive. But for religion it would not exist.

Newspapers, advertising hoardings, TV adverts all implicitly promoting a materialist vision of what our lives are all about?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 08:15 AM

It is interesting to me, Steve Shaw, that, dismissive as you are in your argument, in *print* you are respectful to God and Christianity- you capitalize the words. I would have expected you to say "a god" rather than "God".

I'm probably inconsistent and careless in this regard. Hey ho. I'm respectful to respectful Christians, as it happens, but that's setting the bar quite high you understand.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 08:17 AM

Steve, on this thread you say "I think that most of our major religions deserve all the attacks they receive."

On the other thread, you suggested in your early posts that all criticism of muslims was racist, and you defended Islam from all criticism.

What utter tripe. Show me!

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 08:22 AM

As for Songs Of Praise, etc., I'll never be joining a campaign to have it banned or anything like that. There are lots of things I don't subscribe to that suck away my tax money (like charitable status for private schools - don't get me started). In the order of things it's just a silly programme that probably never killed anyone, and I'm sure that tossers like Jonathan Ross suck away far more of my dough.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 08:28 AM

>The stuff you refer to is entirely reactive. But for religion it would not exist.

Newspapers, advertising hoardings, TV adverts all implicitly promoting a materialist vision of what our lives are all about?

Materialist does not equate to anti-religious, unless you're a religious neurotic. You've fallen into the trap of accepting that religion is the default position, the reference point against which everything must be judged. Well I'm an atheist and I don't accept it. Truly anti-religious stuff relies on religion for its very existence. The girl on page 3 with the huge norks does not have a caption underneath saying "Choose either me or God."

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 08:38 AM

A while back, Songs Of Praise came from Morwenstow church, near here. I've been inside that lovely old church countless times. The churchyard is a delight in spring, filled with primroses and celandines, and you can stroll out to the cliffs and Hawker's Hut afterwards. I sang lustily along, though I usually only know the first verse, if that. You can always practise your harmonising by humming. I watched all that sanctimonious guff in the Island Parish series, too, when it came from the Isles of Scilly, which I love to bits. I could always look over the vicar's shoulders at the scenery to work out where I'd been.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 08:42 AM

Or just stick "Islamic" in front of any negative word or phrase (or one you've worked on to make negative). Islamic suicide bomber. The Islamic group Hamas/Hezbollah. Easy innit. "Islamic" is not automatically a race-word, so you can get away with this.

So, Brian, let's hear you judging the whole of white Britain on the strength of what Fred West did. Perhaps you'd care now to make the case, with full evidence of course, that Ashraf Azad was typical of male Muslims and is supported in his actions by the Muslim community.

I repeat. Show me that these young men did what they did in the name of Islam and I'll let you off saying your intolerant things like "Pakistani Muslim men towards young British girls..."

If you're not anti-Islam tell me why you single out Muslims for this responsibility to speak out.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 08:48 AM

Steve and Greg.....If my opinions seem so outlandish to you, why don't you have a stab at answering Keiths main point?

Achy, old chap, do you never learn? Just look at what happened on the Muslim Prejudice thread when anybody tried to answer "Keith's main point." Keith doesn't have one "main point". He has a large number of "main points", and if you try to address any one of them he simply shifts to another "main point."

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 08:53 AM

Keith, you should make it clear when you're quoting someone. Those bleeding chunks are me on that other thread, to remove confusion, and they have absolutely nothing to do with Keith's ridiculous accusation that I think all Muslims should be exempt from criticism. Try harder, Keith, and also try explaining the context of quoted remarks as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 09:20 AM

Sorry Steve, but it did follow your request.
Your posts do suggest that criticism of Islam tends to be racially motivated, if you will forgive the weasels.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 09:32 AM

My posts suggest that racially-motivated criticism of Muslims is racially-motivated. You were attacking people because they just happened to be of Muslim origin ("BPs" to use your ugly representation of them, as if you're scared to type the word "Pakistani") committing a particular crime and who were definitely not acting in the name of Islam. That's racially-motivated criticism. I've been posting a lot on another forum this week on which I criticise Hamas and Hezbollah for certain actions that they pretend to do in the name of Islam, and for their silly and counterproductive rhetoric at times. I could just praise them and ignore their faults as I see them, couldn't I. Anyway, to cut to the chase, you simply cannot demonstrate that of which you accuse me, because I simply didn't say it (and I don't think it). Try harder.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 10:06 AM

Meanwhile, to get back to the subject of the thread, from Pakistan Christian Post dated today: PCC condemn killing of Christian blasphemy victim in Karachi jail.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 11:11 AM

Why the difference Greg?

No, Keith, I expressed contempt for supposed "Christians"[sic] who as a matter of course expressed contempt for Muslims.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 11:17 AM

Have any of you ever been trapped in a revolving door?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 11:35 AM

Many's the time, Bruce- suppose I should know better.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: olddude
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 11:45 AM

No, Keith, I expressed contempt for supposed "Christians"[sic] who as a matter of course expressed contempt for Muslims.

They are not Christians Greg ... that's the difference. No more than the Taliban are Muslims

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 11:54 AM

That's right, and it pays to remember that when we routinely, as we do, smear Islam every time alleged "Muslims"/people who look like they may be Muslims/people who are Muslims but not acting like Muslims get up to something we disapprove of.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 12:32 PM

They are not Christians Greg ... that's the difference.

You Bet! and this Keith dude is among their number, whining about so-called "Christians" being "Persecuted".

Enough, already!

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 12:34 PM

Steve, the first of those posts predated the paedophile gang rapists discussion, which you also considered to be racist.

Greg,
On the Muslim Prejudice thread, you were quite defensive towards Muslims, and very critical of any and all Christians.
You never abused Muslims for having an imaginary friend.

On the Christian Persecution thread, you expressed nothing but contempt for any and all Christians without mentioning Muslims at all.
Why do you treat them so differently?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 12:39 PM

Why do YOU, Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: olddude
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 12:53 PM

People who persecute other people have no faith, they follow leaders. They can arise in any denomination, in any political movement, and yes can be atheists also. They come from all walks of life. I know of no person of faith that persecutes anyone, a faith based life is one of compassion and helping others ... anything less is simply not correct.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 01:01 PM

Steve, the first of those posts predated the paedophile gang rapists discussion, which you also considered to be racist

You're now saying that I regarded a whole discussion as racist? Huh?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 01:35 PM

The thing is, we sometimes get corrupt governments and corrupt legal systems who cosy up to the racism and bigotry you can find in most places - as with the old South in America, or the (let's hope)defunct dictatorship in Egypt, and the current regime in Pakistan.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 03:09 PM

Steve, I said that on the other thread you suggested in your early posts that all criticism of muslims was racist, and you defended Islam from all criticism.

Greg, I hope and believe I do treat them the same.
Unlike you, I treat neither with contempt, and I consider neither above criticism.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 03:28 PM

Greg, I hope and believe I do treat them the same.

Right. See Jeremiah 5:21, Isaiah 6:9-10, Matthew 13:13

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 06:01 PM

I am afraid that sneering remark about "whining about so-called "Christians" being "Persecuted" does rather tend to colour anything that Greg F says in this context.

There is no question but that there is a situation in Pakistan in which members of a minority community can find themselves routinely subjected to murder, prosecution and imprisonment. The fact that the victims are Asian Christians rather than Black Americans or European Jews does not make that remark any less repellent.

I hope that on consideration Greg will recognise that and withdraw it. I don't think he is really the kind of person that it implies he is.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 06:10 PM

Kevin, members of all manner of minority communities all over the face of the earth- including Gays, Lesbians, agnostics, athiests, women &of late sentient beings capable of rational thought &c &c &c find themselves on the short end of the stick.

This is news?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 06:24 PM

is there any room for remarks regarding jewish persecution here?

the st. valentine massacre of jews in germany in retribution for be blamed for the black death (plague) is a particularly horrifying and fascinating tale. a tale i call 'when flagellents go wild'

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 06:31 PM

So it's "whining" to mention such things, and inverted commas should be placed on any description of that kind of thing as "persecution"?

Maybe the victims in such cases were"asking for it"?

I don't actually believe Greg thinks that.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 07:12 PM

AFAIK many different minorities in Pakistan are routinely persecuted.

The minorities minister was however murdered not because of his religion but because of his political activity.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 08:20 PM

"The minorities minister was however murdered not because of his religion but because of his political activity."

That's not a million miles from saying that Martin Luther King was shot for his political activity and not because he was black. In one way that would be true, but at the same time it would distort the truth about the circumstances. The two went together.

Here is the very impressive video clip of Shahbaz Bhatti speaking about the likelihood of his own assassination.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 08:44 PM

Well said Mr McGrath.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 07:33 AM

Methinks M'Unlearned friend should quit whilst he's behind....

Political activity and religion may be different things in a dictionary but in Pakistan, the line is more than blurred.

Oh, and yeah... I am on the side of the oppressor. Every time mate, every time. if she worked for me, I would have been uncomfortable reinstating her. (Sorry everybody, a parallel thread is in danger of occurring here.) Like The NMC, I put safeguarding rather high on my agenda. A pity you weren't acting for her really, we could have a safer service if she had been struck off.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 12:05 PM

Fluids - check your facts. I know it's not your speciality, but for once do us a favour. You've already gone from purporting to know about that case to admitting your prejudice.

Martin Luther King was assassinated because it was to his assassins unacceptable for a black man to be a political activist.

Bhatti was assassinated purely for his political stances. If he had once been Muslim apostasy would have been added to the list of his alleged crimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 12:22 PM

...it was to his assassins unacceptable for a black man to be a political activist.

I rather suspect that if his politics had been pro-segregation and pro-war the fact that he was black might have been seen in a different light.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 12:52 PM

Yep, Kevin , but he probably still would have been shot for being "uppity". You need to experience Dixie at first hand.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 03:29 PM

A Christian GP who asked a troubled patient if he had considered faith in Jesus appeared before medical watchdogs today.

Dr Richard Scott spoke about the matter of religion to the 24-year-old, who has been described as 'suicidal' and 'vulnerable', at the end of a consultation at his surgery, the General Medical Council (GMC) heard.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2040567/Christian-Dr-Richard-Scott-fights-job-asking-suicidal-patient-faith.html

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Van
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 03:46 PM

It is known in the town that this is a Christian medical centre and locals can choose to go to one of the other practices. It is after all called the Bethesda medical centre, bit of a clue. Other reports say that it was the mother, not the patient, who complained. I,m not a practicing Christian and have no axe to grind but I feel that it is unfair that the GP involved has all this publicity about his conduct but the complainant remains anonymous.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 03:53 PM

One more vulnerable individual being persecuted by a "Christian"[sic]

No news here.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Stringsinger
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 07:18 PM

I can't trust the Vatican as a credible objective source on persecution. After all, historically, they have been "masters of the craft". Auto-de-fes anyone?

Christians make up the majority of religious affiliation in the U.S. and they are actively pursuing their agendas when they are not persecuting others for their ideas or beliefs.

"Christian persecution" is Dominionist and Reconstructivist twaddle. However, in the U.S. today, Muslims are actively being persecuted by the police and some Christians.

Religious persecution, historically, almost defines the history of religion throughout the world. It seems you can't have one without the other.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 07:32 PM

Christians make up the majority of religious affiliation in the U.S.

And the United States is a pretty small corner of the world. Religious persecution isn't something to sneer at, wherever it's happening or whoever is being persecuted. And it's probably on the increase.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 07:53 PM

Stringsinger, the Vatican hasn't sentenced anyone to any serious penalty for, like, a hundred fifty years - and it wasn't even the Vatican at the time, since the center of power at the time was the Lateran Palace. That was a different time, and people thought differently then. I can't defend their actions - but it was a long, long, time ago.
Whatever the case, your argument is about 150 years out of date. Time to find a new one, wouldn't you think?
I can't defend the more recent actions of the five to ten percent of priests who molested children in recent years, either. Nonetheless, the actions of long ago and those by a recent minority do not invalidate the right of other Catholics to speak against injustice.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 11:55 PM

But despite the fact that I dispute Stringsinger's logic, I find myself almost in complete agreement with him. I'm guessing that Aid to the Church in Need must be a rather insignificant Catholic organization. To say it is "Vatican-approved" is a bit of a stretch. Although the Catholic Church allows it to exist and bear the title Catholic, there's no indication that it is an agency of the Catholic Church itself. It has a right-of-center perspective and a "poor, pitiful me" attitude that I find detrimental.

Yes, it's true that in many places, Christians do suffer because of their religion. Ancient Christian communities are disappearing from Muslim countries, and that's a shame. However, maybe it's more true to say that almost everywhere in the world, minorities suffer terribly at the hands of the majority. That puts a more accurate "spin" on the matter.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Sep 11 - 12:41 AM

Stringsinger: "Christians make up the majority of religious affiliation in the U.S. and they are actively pursuing their agendas when they are not persecuting others for their ideas or beliefs."


Matthew 7:21.."Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven. (22)"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'(23)"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'(24)"Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.(25)"And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.(26)"Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.(27)"The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell-- and great was its fall.(28)When Jesus had finished these words, the crowds were amazed at His teaching."

(Stringsinger): "Christians make up the majority of religious affiliation in the U.S. and they are actively pursuing their agendas when they are not persecuting others for their ideas or beliefs."

??????????

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Sep 11 - 02:15 AM

Stringsinger says: they are actively pursuing their agendas....

Yeah, I suppose that's true. I'm affiliated with one faith-based program whose agenda is to provide "hospitality with dignity and love" to women in an impoverished area. Another one I work with has a different agenda: to encourage the county jail to treat prisoners with compassion and fairness. I'm involved in other faith-based organizations that protest capital punishment and promote the cause of peace.

I don't apologize for any of these agendas. They put to action what I believe. And please note that none of these faith-based programs makes any attempt to preach religion.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 23 Sep 11 - 03:39 AM

Just want to point out that it is NOT a Christian medical centre. There is no such thing.

The Primary Care contract clearly states it is contracted to operate within the terms of the PCT equality scheme and equality legislation. The PCT (local health authority) commissions care that is equal, accessible to all and patients should not have to put up with this, any more than a pharmacist should be able to refuse to supply morning after pills when he / she is the duty pharmacist and there is nobody else to sign and dispense. If you come across religious overtones in your NHS care, somebody is not doing what is expected of them.

In addition, patients are seen by GPs, and GPs have clear obligations as to influencing vulnerable people, and even clearer obligations under the Hippocratic oath with regard to using their medical expertise without fear or favour.

Hence this GP is answering to his professional registration body (GMC) for the allegations.

Once very good reason I get rather agitated about this is that in a hospital, people of faith, and I am talking especially about Islam here.. leave their faith at the door. Hence a Muslim nurse will give personal care to a man. A muslim doctor will carry out an intimate examination or procedure on a person of the opposite sex etc. If we allow faith to enter healthcare in any way other than chaplaincy for those who would be comforted by it, it would open a huge can of worms, and not just wearing crosses and asking people if they have let Jesus in their lives.

It is not about persecuting Christians. It is not about stifling peoples' right to express their faith or any other related tosh. On that basis, if your boss asks you where the report is and you say Jesus told you to flush it down the toilet.....

I have always supported the concept of freedom of religious expression. I have also supported the notion that it is not used to influence the lives of those who don't want to play. I have noticed a push recently by leaders in the Christian world, especially here in The UK to play the "persecution" card in order to have more influence in society.

Stop it. It is doing your cause no good. All it does is entrench the position of those of us who only wish to be governed by those we vote for. You carry on singing in church on a Sunday and I will carry on singing on the Kop at Hillsborough on a Saturday. We all have faith, we all need to express it. I express mine at the temple of soccer. (I bet my faith is tested more often than yours...)

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Sep 11 - 04:18 AM

Not as much as mine is being this season, Ian: I'm an Arsenal supporter!

~Michael~

Drift? Don't think so: they call soccer 'the religion' in Liverpool, don't they? Liverpool! Everton! Tranmere Rovers - er???

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 23 Sep 11 - 04:56 AM

Well Michael, if faith binds people together, then Liverpool needs football, 'cos Christianity seems to be a divider there.........

Arsenal? Sorry, I will waffle away on posts without realising the upset I can cause (!)

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Sep 11 - 12:06 PM

LoL ~~~

☺

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 23 Sep 11 - 01:35 PM

I'm a Christian, go to church and am on the PCC etc. But I'd be extemely uncomfortable if any healthworker started talking to me about their faith in this way. It's inappropriate. We had a bus driver some years ago who accosted his passengers about finding Jesus etc. as they boarded the bus. Again, it was uncalled-for and unacceptable, it just got people's backs up.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Sep 11 - 03:48 PM

It's not at all clear what "in this way" amounted to. In something called "the Bethesda Medical Centre" it seems strange if mention of Christianity is seen as unacceptable.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Sep 11 - 04:08 PM

""I deplored the use of smoke on civillians, but correctly denied that smoke is classified as a chemical weapon.""

How easily you distort the truth Keith, and without a sign of conscience.

Why do you not have the nerve to come straight out with the fact that you are talking about WHITE PHOSPHORUS, which burns spontaneously when exposed to air, and is not extinguishable by water, but burns until physically removed or exhausted.

It can burn right through a human torso, flesh and bone.

That's a little different than your weasel word "SMOKE", wouldn't you say?

Back on topic, while I deplore any persecution of any minority, by any majority, for any or for no reason, I have two points to make.

1. Aid to the Church in Need can pull percentages out of a hat until they are blue in the face, but that doesn't constitute one credible FACT until they supply chapter and verse to prove the source and veracity of their figures.

2. Does anybody think that persecution of minorities will magically cease if we withdraw AID, or, as is much more likely, will we simply ensure that those minorities will be the first to starve?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Sep 11 - 04:15 PM

""It's not at all clear what "in this way" amounted to. In something called "the Bethesda Medical Centre" it seems strange if mention of Christianity is seen as unacceptable. ""

If I am ill and go to my GP, I expect to be given the best that a fully qualified professional medical practitioner can supply.

If I am seeking divine guidance or intervention the logical Drop in Centre would be the local Church, Mosque, or Temple.

What is totally inappropriate, is for that medical practitioner to seek to delegate his responsibilities to a gifted, but possibly mythical, amateur.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Stringsinger
Date: 23 Sep 11 - 04:24 PM

The faith-based initiatives by definition are preaching religion as a subtext for what they do.

Joe, one argument that is indisputable is that the Catholic Church owns opulent edifices that are located in squalid and poverty-stricken environments around the world.

The Pope is on conspicuous display reminding everyone of the hierarchical nature of the Church and for him to claim "Christian persecution" is the height of hypocrisy which he surely can't personalize.

Gfs: quoting the bible makes no sense whatsoever as a rational conversation. Cherry picking the scriptures makes about as much sense as taking a rational statement as representative as a quote from Mein Kampf.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Sep 11 - 04:32 PM

Stringsinger: "Gfs: quoting the bible makes no sense whatsoever as a rational conversation. Cherry picking the scriptures makes about as much sense as taking a rational statement as representative as a quote from Mein Kampf."

John 13:35 ""By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

Not exactly 'Mein Kampf', now is it???????

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Sep 11 - 04:35 PM

Persecution is persecution, whoever is being persecuted and whoever is doing the persecution.

"Don't ask me to care about Jenny being beaten up by her boyfriend. I know her father, and I think he's a right bastard"

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Sep 11 - 05:04 PM

~~~In something called "the Bethesda Medical Centre" it seems strange if mention of Christianity is seen as unacceptable.~~~

Oh, really? How so? Bethesda is an Aramaic name, derived from
בית-חסדא
Hebrew for House of Grace. Can't see why the fact that it happens to have been mentioned in one of the Gospels should have anything to do with it.

Do only Christians live in Bethesda, Maryland? Not last time I was there, they didn't.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Wesley S
Date: 23 Sep 11 - 05:18 PM

I'll start worring about Christian Persecution when I see the hungry lions headed my way and there's no way out of the arena.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Sep 11 - 06:18 PM

I note that the Bethesda Medical Centre (which is in Kent) actually states on its website that "spiritual matters are likely to be discussed with patients during consultations".

It's a bit analogous to someone who goes to a vegetarian restaurant and complains that the menu is all vegetarian dishes.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Sep 11 - 06:29 PM

My local practice has a website too, but my guess would be that most patients have never looked at it. I joined the list before there were any websites to look at, and I don't give a tuppenny damn about the doctors' religious views, but I go there for medical treatment, and that's what I expect to get.

I'll take care of my soul, spirit, or whatever.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Sep 11 - 06:57 PM

Stringsinger says: Joe, one argument that is indisputable is that the Catholic Church owns opulent edifices that are located in squalid and poverty-stricken environments around the world.

Nope, Frank, I can't deny that. Try tearing down those buildings, though, and take the time to listen to the outcries from the poverty-stricken people who built those buildings for themselves and their communities. The people built those buildings, and it's the people who take pride in them. For the most part, they weren't built under orders from Rome.

If the buildings were sold, who would buy them? If they were torn down, would there be any proceeds from the demolition?

Once again, your arguments don't seem particularly valid.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Penny S.
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 06:20 AM

This is the first time I have come across the idea that an NHS provided service would also be religious. I do hope that there are other practices in the area (I had no choice where I last lived, or at my current address), especially given that there are a variety of faiths practiced by the public - I know that Thanet (the part of Kent) has, for example, a Jewish community. I, though a Christian, would not be happy if the only option was an openly Christian practice, because it would raise issues I might disagree with.

I don't know how it could have happened that there could be a sectarian practice, when it started, under what rules, and I think it should be monitored, and future practices of this sort prevented. This is not what the NHS should be about, and makes me concerned about the recent proposals in Parliament.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 06:25 AM

None of us know the actual facts about this particular case, so there's not much point in going on as if we did.

"If so and so is true that would be right and if so and if so and so is true that would be wrong..."

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Penny S.
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 06:26 AM

REsearch shows a lot of practices close by, but all are in one consortium, headed by a doctor at Bethesda. I couldn't get to their website.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 08:07 AM

It isn't a Christian practice. It is a practice that has an NHS contract hence the GP is up in front of the GMC for his actions.

The system does sometimes work. If I still chaired a PCT (health authority) I would be asking out chief executive to formally give warning of breach of contract if the allegations were substantiated.

There is a place for Christians and that place certainly isn't setting the agenda for primary care. All healthcare, under the terms of The Health and Social Care Act 2008 is without regard to gender race or creed. And that includes private healthcare where the type of care is registerable. (GPs come under registration in 2013 but their work under their NHS contract has to be in line with their contract, which mirrors the regulations anyway.)

That said, many GP practices think they are above any laws or rules anyway and if is only the steady introduction of younger less arrogant GPs that gives me hope for an eventual joined up NHS care anyway.

Luckily, actual care isn't too bad because at the end of the day, their role is purely signing club notes and referring you to real doctors.

Good lark this anonymity.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 10:10 AM

Once again, none of us have any information of the alleged conversation.

What's the point of arguing about specific incidents about which we know essentially nothing relevant?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Stringsinger
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 12:34 PM

Joe, would it be nicer if the money that was used to support those opulent edifices could be spent on improving the impoverished conditions of the people who support them? The demolition that needs to be done is the practice of giving to edifices when people are starving around them. This seems very logical to me.

When people are in need, why isn't the money better spent this way?

Do some people need to be re-educated?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 26 Sep 11 - 11:36 AM

it appears on the surface that some people are too "touchy"
unless the doc insisted on sharing his faith after a refusal ,whats the problem?if a muslim or even an atheist medic wanted to discuss their faith i as a christian would,nt get upset by it.
it appears this practise offers a holistic approach and IMO as long as it is not obligatory on patients it is a good thing which some might be glad to avail themselves of.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Sep 11 - 11:59 AM

Pete, if it were only that, it wouldn't be too much of a problem, though on principle I would say it was inappropriate, and I am a Christian.

The point is that it was said to a person who was about as far down the road to death as it gets, a cancer sufferer who had just been handed the news that his cancer had returned.

For me, that adds up to a vulnerable patient, who will grasp at any straw which presents the slightest hope.

That is not the time for a one sided attempt at recruitment to the Church.

That, I think, is the reason why his superiors find his actions unprofessional, and in the circumstances, WRONG!

His job is to deal with the patient's physical and medical needs, neither of which require a religious commitment.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 26 Sep 11 - 02:51 PM

don,i dont think that recruiting was on the docs mind at all.
if it were ,it was likely to be short lived in this life.
why is it so hard to accept that the holistic care was out of compassionate care.
care i presume that was offerred ,-not enforced-

look forward to next kemsing session .
best wishes
pete

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Stringsinger
Date: 27 Sep 11 - 10:59 AM

What Jim Carroll said. A-Women!

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 28 Sep 11 - 06:27 PM

Pete, with the greatest respect, Holistic Medicine and Holistic treatment relate to treatment of the whole patient physically.

You are seriously stretching the meaning when you start to include the soul as being part of that treatment.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Sep 11 - 07:05 PM

it was said

I haven't seen any clear and reliable report of what was said.

Incidentally a definition of "holistic" that is purely directed at physical symptoms is not one that I think too many practitioners would recognise. But that's maybe a topic for another thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 01:19 AM

Stringsinger, you're going to have to give me concrete examples of opulent churches being built where the people around them are starving. In the United States, the closest to your description might be the Polish cathedrals that served as hiring halls, places of employment, community centers, and symbols of ethnic identity. From what I know of Catholic churches being built in Africa, they usually serve multiple purposes - schools and community centers, mostly.

It's true the Spaniards built magnificent churches as a symbol of their power and oppression in South America, but that was a long time ago.

Nowadays, churches are generally built by the people and for the people - as was the case with ethnic churches in the United States.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 03:21 AM

The Basilica of Our Lady of the Peace in Yamassoukro would go a long way to make this case.

But I know, it's a bit of a quirk and a bit too much out of the ordinary.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 06:52 AM

Holistic approach is all well and good. GPs have a framework to guide them in offering more than the scientific aspects of healthcare. If they go beyond that, they are answerable to their registering body The GMC.

Physical symptoms can be addressed through a more holistic approach. If that were not the case, the placebo effect would not have a 20% success rate! GPs, more than any other doctor appreciate that that their role includes the overall well being. After all, a positive mind speeds up recovery. A study in The British Medical Journal many years ago demonstrated that in many minor ailment cases, patients started feeling better before the medication had a biological chance to start making a difference. Sometimes, just the act of getting off your arse and seeing a GP starts the recovery process. After all, your body contains enough chemicals to tackle many issues, they just need a kick start by the brain.

None of this affects the issue of bringing Jesus into the consulting room. You can get struck off for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: John P
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 09:40 AM

A holistic approach to healing includes seeing to the spiritual, emotional, and mental needs of the patient as well as the physical. Trying to call Christian proselytizing an attempt at a holistic healing, however, is stretching that definition to the breaking point. Unless you are sure the patient is a religious person and wants to talk about, you just don't do it. The spiritual needs of the patient rarely includes being preached at. "Spiritual" and "religion" don't mean the same thing at all.

The practitioner's job is to step outside of the themselves and provide what the patient needs, not what the practitioner believes.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 10:37 AM

I don't actually think I'd disagree with you much about the principles involved, John. But tying discussion to a particular very unclear case messes up the process of exploring that kind of thing.

It makes sense to talk about principles, and about the limits on what is appropriate, but going beyond that to talk about particular cases in ignorance of the full facts doesn't help. Not just on this case, people seem to fall into that trap time and time again, in relation to all kind of issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 11:36 AM

our local hospice team holistic approach certainly includes the spiritual,but without any coercion to partake of such if contrary to patient wishes.if the patient declines it should be dropped.
whether offering such in the context of the medics own faith is illegal or not i dont know.but if it is- in the above proviso - illegal,-to quote from dickens"the law is an ass!" and PC gone mad IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 11:42 AM

I have been involved in cases of proselytising clinicians from the complaints side in my past. One thing that comes across very clearly is the refusal to see that it is a problem, largely on the basis that doing God's work transcends any laws.

John P makes a succinct point regarding providing what somebody needs, not what the practitioner believes. Sadly, the mindset I have had to tackle has included thinking that the patient needs what the practitioner believes.

And so it goes on..... (Just out of the need for balance etc, I will point out that the cases I have reviewed, and there have been a few over the years, the practitioner, whether doctor, nurse or AHP has been other religions as well as Christian. Interestingly, I have never personally come across clinicians proselytising Islamic faith. However, cases of pharmacists refusing to dispense morning after pills are more common with that particular faith.)

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Penny S.
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 03:29 PM

A bit of real persecution in the news today, of a pastor in Iran condemned to death for being an apostate to Islam. He has been told he will be allowed to live if he renounces his Christianity.

Not being allowed to speak to patients, or wear a cross fades into insignificance.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Stringsinger
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 04:18 PM

The Catholic Cathedral in Juarez, Chihuahua is large, opulent, and adjoining it is the Mission of Guadelupe, two very large edifices in one of the most turbulent drug laden poverty centers of the world unless you count the incomes of the drug cartels.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Stringsinger
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 04:54 PM

Joe, I have to make my position clear. I am a supporter of the First Amendment and do not want to see any religion in this country outlawed, people having the right to believe what they want, acknowledging that as people, there are many with whom I would disagree as to their religious choices.

There are people who profess Catholicism who I greatly admire although I think they would be who they are regardless of that professed belief.

The Berigan Brothers, Dennis Kucinich, Micheal Moore, Ammon Hennesey, Dorothy Day. Roy Bourgeois, members of Liberation Theology in Central America and I'm sure there are more.

I don't decry anyone's right to believe whatever they want so I don't want to be painted as someone who would deny this basic right.

I think that my criticism of opulent churches extend beyond just Catholic Cathedrals, Protestant, Islamic, Judaic and other edifices are easy to find and it is my view that the money to support these buildings could be better used to eliminate poverty.

That's my position.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 05:19 PM

I have been waiting for someone to mention poor Yusuf Naderkhani.
Young father in gaol on death row for two years for wanting to be a Christian.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-15116650

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 05:28 PM

Keith ~ PennyS mentioned this 4 or 5 posts back: you seem to have missed it.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 05:40 PM

quite agree penny-the worst i get is badmouthing or disdain.nothing compared to believers in hardline communist/muslim/hindu ,and even i think, buddhist locations.
at least medics in the west could only lose their jobs and not their lives for not compromising their faith.best wishes
pete

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 11:37 PM

Well, Frank,
I can't second-guess people for building lavish churches. If people are forced to build lavish churches, that's another matter. Oftentimes, poor people build lavish churches and other public buildings as a matter of pride, showing that they too can build and possess something beautiful. Many times, such buildings provide a place of employment and an outlet for artistic expression and a community gathering place and education center - and you can't eat any of the materials used in building a religious edifice.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 11:49 PM

Exactly who are the Christians persecuting now?

The big 3 have been hating each other for a long time.

I bet if Christ were alive today,
he would enjoy the Vatican.
He would invite the squalid poor to live in the Vatican
and Christ would be cruxified all over again.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 02:38 AM

Sorry Penny.
It was worthy of repeating though, wasn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 06:40 AM

""and even i think, buddhist locations.
at least medics in the west could only lose their jobs and not their lives for not compromising their faith.best wishes""

Buddhist locations?

I'd like to see some evidence of Buddhist fundamentalism, given that their whole religion is based on respect for all life forms, and they won't even step on an ant.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 06:59 AM

they won't even step on an ant That's the Jains, who are Hindus.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 07:09 AM

Buddhists too.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 07:15 AM

"Doctors can only lose their job"

I suppose comparing to being put to death for not believing, it is a bit tame.

However, there is no clash in being a doctor and having faith. The clash is using your faith in your professional capacity. Most doctors in The UK who profess a faith are Muslims, and interpret, as per The Q'ran I am told, that many lifestyle taboos are not relevant where and when practicing healthcare. Especially the gender familiarity restrictions. Likewise for the many Hindu, Jewish and Buddhist doctors.

Like it or lump it, the times it is an issue is with Christians, usually of the born again variety. I have many church going friends but I note it is the ones who rediscovered their faith who seem to think everybody else might be interested in their hobby.

Persecution, as this thread tries to focus on, is a two way street. Every time I read of a cleric who put's the rules of his church on either the same level or a higher level than the laws of the land, I question his or her abuse of the trust many people install in him or her. Every time I note the Synod is having problems coming to terms with equality laws, I question their right to operate as a corporate structure under UK law.

Nothing in my concerns is about or reflects on the individual right to believe in a faith system or to set your own moral compass by it. I shudder at the thought of persecuting Christians, but see the need to scrutinise Christian structures where the democratic process, (or Parliamentary sovereignty) is ignored. The only losers can be those who try to inflict their beliefs on others.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 07:33 AM

"Buddhists too"

Not really...read "The Nature of Existence and The Reality of Suffering" on this page.

http://www.hinduwebsite.com/jainism/buddhismvsjainism.asp

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 07:50 AM

But surely it is good to kill sometimes. To kill disease-spreading insects, for example, or someone who is going to kill you?


It might be good for you but what about that thing or that person? They wish to live just as you do. When you decide to kill a disease-spreading insect, your intention is perhaps a mixture of self-concern (good) and revulsion (bad). The act will benefit yourself (good) but obviously it will not benefit that creature (bad). So at times it may be necessary to kill but it is never wholly good.


You Buddhists are too concerned about ants and bugs.


Buddhists strive to develop a compassion that is undiscriminating and all-embracing.
http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/qanda04.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: saulgoldie
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 08:37 AM

I think we can all agree that *some* Christians have been and are persecuted.
I think we can also agree that *some* Christians have persecuted others, even in current times.
I think we can also agree that being the persecutors or the persecutees is not limited to Christians.
I *hope* we can agree that persecution of anyone *just because of the religion they choose, including those who do not practice any religion* is wrong, wrong, wrong, and will not get humanity to where I think we want to be.

But then, I am an idealist. And even idealists have been persecuted. So later today, I am going to the 2011 Getaway, where I plan to discuss and experience music, and not religion.

Saul

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 08:43 AM

Can we all agree that, right now, Christians are persecuted more than any other minority or faith group?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 08:46 AM

Also, who are Christians persecuting right now?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 08:49 AM

Not really!!

But we could just agree to disagree.

That's it for me.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 08:57 AM

""Also, who are Christians persecuting right now?""

Cross posted, but I can't let that pass.

So called Christians (the lunatic, fanatical fundamentalist fringe) are, as you well know, persecuting:-

1. Gay couples who want a stable, lasting, and formally recognised relationship.

2. The majority of Muslims, who just want to get on with their lives.

3. Any woman who seeks an abortion, for any reason.

The list is longer, but I can't be arsed. You work it out Keith. It may not have reached the stage of killing them (in most cases), but it IS nonetheless persecution.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 09:02 AM

Gay people and abortion seekers are persecuted by extremists of all religions, not specificall Christian, and other religions are more extreme in that persecution.
I challenge that Christians are persecuting Muslims.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 09:12 AM

I see!!

If others are doing the same thing it means that Christians mysteriously are not?

Very strange logic, until I remember the source!

As to the other claim, every time a Christian says "Muslims are terrorists" he is persecuting the vast majority.

I've already said it once. You and I will never reach agreement, because for you, no change of opinion is possible.

And now I'm done with it.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 09:21 AM

Why so unfriendly Don?

If gay people are being persecuted by some Christians, but mainly and worse by other religions, it seems harsh to single them out.

I dispute that "Muslims are terrorists" is being said by Christians.
None that I have ever heard.
How do you justify that claim Don?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 11:35 AM

Keith Says: Can we all agree that, right now, Christians are persecuted more than any other minority or faith group?

Well, no, Keith. I think it's safe to say that women have always been the most-persecuted "minority," although I believe they are a majority.

I think it would be safe to say that whenever we make sweeping statements about groups, we're most likely to be wrong. I suppose though, that with over a billion Christians, many are likely to be persecuted - especially the women (often by their own husbands). In general, though, we're better off to discuss specifics.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: saulgoldie
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 12:16 PM

Keith,
Demonizing Muslims is a punchcard issue for the TeaPublicans, most of whom at least *call* themselves Christian, even if they don't embody Christianity. Numerous examples out there. On the record statements. And actions.

And can their consistent advocation for policies to restrict birth control for women not be seen as persecution? It is *consistent.* It is directed *at* women. It is an affront to their rights as people. Why is that not persecution? Is torching Planned Parenthood clinics not persecution?

Saul

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 01:37 PM

Ok, enough's enough.

Get me some nails and a hammer and I'll persecute the buggers myself.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 01:43 PM

OK guys, but I just felt that the statement "I think we can all agree that *some* Christians have been and are persecuted. " understates the extent of the persecution now being suffered by so many Christians in so many parts of the globe.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 02:15 PM

Is it pedantic to point out that women are probably not a minority anywhere?

It isn't just minorities that get persecuted - powerful minorities are often the worst oppressors.
................

When it comes to religious oppression and persecution, for a variety of reasons, it seems pretty evident that Keith is correct that Christians, and Christian congregations are the target of most of the worst examples at this time.

But we should recognise that our own societies have had a part tomplay in bringing this about. For example the invasion of Iraq has led to terrible and irreparable damage to Christian communities which dated back to pre-Muslim times, and had lived amicably among Muslim neighbours for centuries.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Penny S.
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 04:21 PM

I think Joe did make the point that women are not a minority.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Oct 11 - 02:24 PM

A quote by Chesterton I came across which seems relevant to much of this discussion:

"Religious liberty might be supposed to mean that everybody is free to discuss religion. In practice it means that hardly anybody is allowed to mention it."

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Dec 11 - 08:57 AM

Dr Rowan Williams said that many Christians were leaving countries such as Iraq and Egypt in the face of persecution.

Many others had been forced to retreat to enclaves for their safety, he said.

Dr Williams added that the treatment of Christians would be the "litmus test" of the success of the Arab Spring.

The head of the world's Anglicans made his claims in the House of Lords.

He said: "At the present moment the position of Christians in the region is more vulnerable than it has been for centuries.

"The flow of Christian refugees from Iraq in the wake of constant threat and attack has left a dramatically depleted Christian population there."

Those who chose to stay in the country had often withdrawn to segregated enclaves for their safety, he said.


The Archbishop says Coptic Christians living in Egypt are facing persecution "Many recognise with heavy hearts things may come to such a pass that there are few, if any other options that will actually guarantee the safety of Christians there," the Archbishop said.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Dec 11 - 02:36 PM

First thought that entered my head when I saw the title of this thread is "of or by?"
No religion can claim the moral high ground when it comes to persecuting those who don't fit their particular set of guidelines. The history of the Christian church is second-to-none in having earned itself a bloodsoaked reputation - Quentin Tarrantino - eat your heart out!!!
Even under the general umbrella of Christianity - hard luck if you happen to 'kick with the wrong foot' (and even within the "right" denomination you are not guaranteed protection from abuse - ask the possible victims of Archbishop McQuaid.
Religion deals in mystical absolutes and while it has any say whatever in the day-to-day running of our lives other than that of spiritual guidance, the better, and even that should be only with the total agreement of consenting adults.
Religion and politics is a toxic mix and the sooner it is neutralised, the more likely we are to stop tearing each others heads off in the name of a spiritual bogie-man
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Dec 11 - 04:57 PM

First thought that entered my head when I saw the title of this thread is "of or by?"
No religion can claim the moral high ground when it comes to persecuting those who don't fit their particular set of guidelines

So who is being persecuted by Christians?
I asked this earlier and Don made some suggetions, but I pointed out that, where it happened, Christians were much less guilty of it than others.
So, why single them out?
You defend other faiths Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 03:15 AM

Sorry Keith - no dialogue here to nause up yet another thread.
You've had your answer to that one from others, far more eloquently than I could put mine.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 04:50 AM

This was the only answer I got to that question.
1. Gay couples who want a stable, lasting, and formally recognised relationship.

2. The majority of Muslims, who just want to get on with their lives.

3. Any woman who seeks an abortion, for any reason.

Of all religions, I would say that Christians are no less tolerant, and usually far more tolerant, especially of gay and women's rights, than other groups.
So why single out Christians?

You express much sympathy for other persecuted minorities Jim.
The Bedouin Israelis, who despite their "persecution" are thriving, with the fastest growing population of any group on the planet.

Have you none to spare for the persecuted Christians whose numbers are dwindling under the relentless onslaught, in some cases to extinction?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 07:12 AM

This is getting very worrying - I find myself agreeing with Mither, DonT, and even Mr Fluids.

But there is persecution of Xtians in Malaysia, and it is starting tol look as if persecution of Xtians in Egypt is coming back onto the agenda.

Conversely, anyone looking for the unacceptable face of Xtianity need look no further than (P)Rick Perry.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 08:40 AM

"You defend other faiths Jim."
For the record - I don't defend other faiths; I defend the innocent victims of inter-religious warfare and religious intolerance by any fundamentalist religious extremists, be they Muslim, Christian, Zionist... whoever "they can all go to their own particular hell in a handcart" - remember?
I have no religion and am only interested in the subject while it puts innocent people's lives at risk and brings discord and unhappiness to their existance. The only way I can see that ever happening is to nuetralise any influence that religious groups may have on the way the world is governed. Here in Ireland, we are still counting the child rape victims of Christian persecution (or don't Catholic clerics count as Christians in your book?) - a never-ending task, it would appear.
This is a perfect example of why you really aren't worth debating with - you don't read what others write, then you concoct a distorted version of what has been put forward to suit your own particular 'message to the world' - go away please.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 08:51 AM

Fair point Jim, but I already changed my statement to minorities rather than faiths.
My first should have said, "You defend other minorities Jim."
Why have you no sympathy for this, the most persecuted of all.

A cut/paste,

Christians have only recently begun to talk about how Muslim gangs simply come and take possession of Christian-owned land while the Palestinian security services, almost exclusively staffed by Muslims, stand by. Mr. Qumsieh's own home was firebombed three years ago. The perpetrators were never caught.

"We have never suffered as we are suffering now," Mr. Qumsieh confesses, violating his own introductory warning to the assorted foreign correspondents in his office not to use the word "suffering."

Always a minority religion among the predominantly Muslim Palestinians, Christians are, Mr. Qumsieh says, "melting away," even in Bethlehem. While they represented about 80% of the city's population 60 years ago, their numbers are now down to about 20%, a result not just of Muslims' higher birth rates but also widespread Christian emigration. "Our future as a Christian community here is gloomy," Mr. Qumsieh says.

and,


Mr. Ibrahim's crime in that Hamas-ruled territory was to be a Christian, a transgression he compounded in the Islamists' eyes by writing love poems.

"Muslims tied to Hamas tried to take me twice," says Mr. Ibrahim, and he didn't want to find out what they'd do to him if they ever kidnapped him. He hasn't seen his family since Christmas 2007 and is afraid even to talk to them on the phone.

Speaking to a group of foreign journalists in the Bethlehem Bible College where he is studying theology, Mr. Ibrahim describes a life of fear in Gaza. "My sister is under a lot of pressure to wear a headscarf. People are turning more and more to Islamic fundamentalism and the situation for Christians is very difficult," he says.

In 2007, one year after the Hamas takeover, the owner of Gaza's only Christian bookstore was abducted and murdered. Christian shops and schools have been firebombed. Little wonder that most of Mr. Ibrahim's Christian friends have also left Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 10:03 AM

I am not – not - not getting into a dialogue again with you - though I can't help but notice that you object to English Christians being made aware of American Christian churches excluding mixed-race couples from their services -(see Christian Segregationism 2011)
"It is extraordinary that The Guardian thinks its UK readers need to know all about this. Am I being paranoid, or are Christians being singled out for bad copy?"
It appears that you object to Muslims persecuting Christians, but are quite happy with the idea that Christian Churches persecute Christians because of their colour - lets keep our worship all in the same skin-tone eh - what!.
As I said before - go away please - you've made yourself perfectly clear.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 12:11 PM

On that subject I said,
"Greg,of course they should be singled out, but is it an issue of international importance.
A tiny rural church in the backwoods of Kentucky?
Fifteen voted. (only nine voted as bigots)
My suspicion is that, in the pages of The Guardian and similar, it is open season on throwing dirt at Christians just now. "

Scouring the world for an anti-Christian story however trivial, I see as another example of persecution.

Jim, I do not seek dialogue with you, because you always turn it into a nasty, malicious attack on me personally, as again in your last post!

My reopening post was NOT directed at you.
It was my bad luck that you were the only respondent.
If you post you must expect to be replied to.
Imperious commands to "go away" have only a comedic effect.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 01:26 PM

"Scouring the world for an anti-Christian story however trivial,"
Returning to the "Good Ol' Days" of racial segregation is "trivial"
Thank you for reminding me of everything I detest about racism (and of the hypocricy of religion - which makes me thank god I am an atheist)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 02:03 PM

There are 9 bigots in a remote Kentucky backwoods church.
Hold the front page!

If they were not just looking for anti-Christian copy, they would not have to resort to such trivia.

Obviously there is no hope of you actually addressing the issues of this thread Jim.
You just rake up groundless smears against me as a person.
That is your only reason for posting here.
You are a sad, obsessed person Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 02:30 PM

Gee, I wonder if there's a way to make a combat thread visible only to the warring parties....

From all this discussion, I think it can be concluded that some Christians are persecuted, and some are persecutors. And the same goes for Muslims, and for just about any other group. I think it's best to assess individuals as individuals, and not for their group affiliation.

That being said, there ARE places in this world where people are persecuted for their faith or gender or sexual orientation or any number of other things, and such persecution must be stopped - no group "deserves" to be persecuted.

As you were, Keith and Jim.

Or not.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 03:10 PM

That being said, there ARE places in this world where people are persecuted for their faith or gender or sexual orientation or any number of other things,

Yup, Joe, and one of these places is the Good Old U. S. of A. - the "best country in the world" accordin\fg to the christian[sic]Exceptionalist movenment.

John 11:35

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 03:31 PM

"Gee, I wonder if there's a way to make a combat thread visible only to the warring parties....
Sorry Joe but it would have been interesting to see a comment about Keith's view of Christianity from a Chrristian - my mistake
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 01:00 PM

Keith is a very difficult person with whom to discuss any serious subject.

His position is always the same.

Tell him that somebody is committing acts of assault, persecution or racist hate and no matter how solid the evidence, he will reply somebody else is doing it more, or worse, and therefore your original statement must be wrong.

Nobody has yet been able to educate him out of the primary school playground excuse mentality, so all you get is "Jimmy did it too miss".

In Keith's world, if a Muslim threw a snowball at a Christian, that would be persecution, and if the Christian pulled out a gun and shot him, that would be just a predictable response to Muslim aggression.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 01:19 PM

That is unjust Don.
That slur on my character is unjustifiable.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 02:46 PM

Read some of your own posts Keith, and note how many times you do it.

e.g. Syria treats the Bedouins worse than Israel and therefore we shouldn't complain about Israel's treatment.

A non argument since we were not discussing treatment of Bedouins worldwide, but in fact the topic was Israel's behaviour.

You do it all the time.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 03:03 PM

Not a fair representation of my views Don.
Israel was being demonized for its treatment of the Bedouin.

I provided evidence of the investment being made in their housing by Israel, and that the community was thriving.

You actually agreed with me Don, that it was reasonable to acknowledge that the treatment by Israel of its Bedouin was far better than their treatment at the hands of their Arab brothers in Egypt and Jordan.
And that is all I did.
Your criticism of me is unfounded.

Why am I always attacked by misrepresenting my arguments in previous threads, instead of the points I am currently making?
Because it is easier?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 03:42 PM

" and that the community was thriving."
Next to a toxic rubbish dump - which you were fully informed of, given the evidence of and are now choosing to ignore once again - I think you have just shown Don's summing up to be about right, don't you?
I doubt if it would be possible to "slur " your "character" any more than you manage to do yourself.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 03:50 PM

I also provided evidence about the dump.
I provided pictures.
It is an ordinary domestic dump found in all towns.
It is surrounded by apartments and houses.
It is a few minutes walk from some of Jerusalem's most holy sites.
Non-Bedouin Palestinians are contesting that they should be given the sites.

Why are we discussing it on this thread lads?
Any comments on my view that Christians are an exceptionally persecuted minority?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 03:58 PM

""Why are we discussing it on this thread lads?
Any comments on my view that Christians are an exceptionally persecuted minority?""

I see! You can bring the subject of Syrian actions to a discussion of Israeli behaviour, but when I respond to a direct challenge to produce evidence of your behaviour, any evidence from outside this thread is disqualified by you.

Another indication that I was right in my assessment.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 04:03 PM

""Any comments on my view that Christians are an exceptionally persecuted minority?""

Based on death tolls in Vietnam, Cambodia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Rwanda, Sudan, Darfur etc. etc.

NO! Not especially.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 04:51 PM

From your list, let us just consider those conflicts that are of this century.
Sudan, where the Muslim government persecuted the Christian minority in Darfur to an extent verging on genocide.

And Iraq, where the once thriving Christian community has been persecuted almost to extinction.

Still no comment Don?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 06:12 PM

""Sudan, where the Muslim government persecuted the Christian minority in Darfur to an extent verging on genocide.""

I included Darfur because it was anti Christian and to show once again that the rest of us are capable of seeing two sides, while you only see the Christian or the Jewish side.

That anti Christian action and a similar one in Iraq took your attention, but the thousands of Muslims, Buddhists and others murdered in my other examples were, as usual, beneath your notice.

And, by the way, events in the eighties and nineties, while technically of the last century, are all in the last thirty years, and only the fact that those years span the turn of a century grants you the opportunity you seize upon so eagerly, to play down the events which you don't wish to acknowledge.

Once again you show that my earlier assessment of your position is both justified and true.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 01:09 AM

Rwanda was an inter-tribal conflict.
Vietnam, Cambodia and Afghanistan were about conflicting political ideologies, not persecuting minorities.

Any comments on my view that Christians are an exceptionally persecuted minority?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 04:40 AM

Christian persecution..

Right!

Yesterday, three, (count them) three different sets of smiling people came to my door during the course of as many hours asking if I had taken Jesus into my life.

Can anybody tell me how to stop the buggers persecuting my right to watch the latest Harry Potter DVD in peace?

Christian persecution should be a crime. Stop the buggers persecuting me anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 06:23 AM

I wonder if I should give Keith a difficult dilemma by pointing out that in Jerusalem Jewish extremists are persecuting not only other Jews but also Xtians for (for example) non-adherence to extremist Jewish dress odes for women.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 06:35 AM

There is no dilemma there Richard.
It is an example of mild persecution, which I deplore.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 07:32 AM

If you look at the Wiki page on Christian Persecution, you find 23 countries listed, but not Israel.
Also this.
"Currently (as of 2010), as estimated by the Christian missionary organisation Open Doors UK, an estimated 1 million Christians face persecution, particularly in North Korea, Iran and Saudi Arabia.[2] A recent study, cited by the Vatican, reported that 75 out of every 100 people killed due to religious hatred are Christian.[3"

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 08:56 AM

the Wiki page on Christian Persecution,

Ah, yess, the absolutely authoritative Blog-O-Paedia!

I wouldn't believe them without corroboration if they said the earth was round (which it ain't)

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 09:44 AM

Ah, Ian M ~~ glad you still around. How about Arsenal now, then? Two above, & 2 points clear of, Liverpool. Must be because of my Maintaining The Faith, eh?

Tee-hee.
〠〠〠〠〠〠

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 10:36 AM

""Rwanda was an inter-tribal conflict.
Vietnam, Cambodia and Afghanistan were about conflicting political ideologies, not persecuting minorities.

Any comments on my view that Christians are an exceptionally persecuted minority?""

Keep wriggling Keith.

1. Rwanda was not straightforward tribal conflict, but the persecution and annihilation of one tribe by another, much stronger and better equipped.

2. Vietnam was the persecution of one group of citizens by another, aided by outsiders.

3. Cambodia was the persecution, and extinction, of all who were considered, by a paranoid maniac leader, to be intellectuals, his definition of intellectuals being anybody who used a fountain pen.

You cannot simply decide to redefine words to support your failing arguments.

People are being persecuted all over this rotten world for their religious or political beliefs, their colour or race and their sexual orientation, and you want the world to admit that Christians are the most persecuted?

Sorry mate, but on the death toll alone that is far from the truth.

Now, can we put your ridiculous claims aside, and discuss the means by which ALL human beings (including Christians) might be protected from persecution?

That discussion might be worth the band width!! This one is NOT!!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 11:02 AM

Don, Rwanda WAS an example of a minority being persecuted.
It was genocide.
All your other examples were wars between rival political ideologies.

If you do not think the persecution of minorities, by death, imprisonment, rape and seizure or destruction of property, worth discussing, no-one is forcing you.

Greg, I just cited Wiki for an overview.
What do you want confirmed?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 11:37 AM

""If you do not think the persecution of minorities, by death, imprisonment, rape and seizure or destruction of property, worth discussing, no-one is forcing you.""

You really are one of a kind, and in other circumstances you would amuse me.

Accuse the other party of doing what in fact you are doing yourself, but it doesn't work.

You carefully ignored the persecution of Hazara and of women in Afghanistan by the Taliban, and the persecution of Shia Muslims in Iraq.

In fact you stated (11th Dec 04.51) that the persecution in Iraq was against Christians, and ignored the inter Muslim aspect.

You are attempting to make your case by ignoring all facts that militate against you, but a few minutes of research show that many other religious, political, and gender specific groups are persecuted just as much, and in some cases more.

Your myth is BUSTED!! Christians are being persecuted, as are many others, but you refuse to notice the others because you don't regard their lives as significant.

What other reason can there be for adhering to the lie that political conflict is NOT persecution, when the Chi-Coms pour resources into a third world country to convert it to Communism?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 12:17 PM

I ignored nothing.
Apart from Shia not being a minority in Iraq, you can not deny that Christians suffer great persecution there, and also in Afghanistan.

My case is that Christian persecution is a massive and under-reported abomination.
Yes others are persecuted, but none more than Christians.

If you say I am wrong to state that, then justify.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 02:10 PM

One I'm in favor of:
UK courts have determined that as long as they pr/teach that homosexuality is a sin, Christians are unfit to adopt, as LGBT rights trump "freedom of conscience" (quotation marks theirs). I think there is also the danger to girls of not being taught biology if it shades into contraception, another great peril to be avoided.

Chalk one up for the reasonable!

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 02:41 PM

chalk one up for less adoptive families and the infringement of freedom of belief!

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Penny S.
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 02:48 PM

I think there might be an argument that more women are persecuted, regardless of faith, than Christians. In some cases, by national or religious law, in others by the lawless, as in the Congo, and in others by partners in otherwise civilised countries, out of sight.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 03:27 PM

I regret my last post to Don.
Don, I do not mind that you disagree, but why is it always an attack on me?
You could just say, " I think you are wrong that Christians are most persecuted, and if they are it does not matter because any persecution is wrong."

Why do you need to misrepresent my contributions in old threads to make some kind of case against me personally?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 03:37 PM

Yes others are persecuted, but none more than Christians.

And you base this preposterous nonsensical statement on what factual evidence, pray?

Please elucidate, enumerate, & be specific.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 04:53 PM

I refer you to the OP, which was prompted by the survey eluded to on the Wiki page.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 05:21 PM

"OP"? You mean the "Opus Preposterous"?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 05:45 PM

No, the opening post Greg.
What is your objection please.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 05:51 PM

Well it is certain that no group celebrates and invites persecution like Christians. That is understandable considering nearly all of the early leaders are celebrated as martyrs. Keep in mind that Easter is the highest holy day.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 06:37 PM

Well, Keith, From The OP - which is indeed the Opus Preposterous:

Aid to the Church in Need suggested 75% of religious persecution around the world is directed against Christians.

I'm not interestered what in Cardinal O'Brien and Aid to the Church in Need SUGGEST. Nor what they imply about Pakistan.

What can they document and prove? Please supply evidence.

Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 01:13 AM

Whatever you think of the Pope Greg, I do not believe he would stand up and blatantly lie on the world stage.
If he did, I believe at least one of his numerous enemies would expose him, and the published research cited.

That did not happen.
That is why I think the figures reliable.
What is your reason for dismissing them Greg?
Prejudice?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 01:54 AM

I fail to see why is is important to ascertain whether one group or another is the most persecuted. You can find evidence of just about every group being persecuted, in areas where that group is a minority.

It does seem clear that Christians are persecuted in some countries, particularly the ancient Christian churches that existed in the Middle East since before Islam came to be. Does anybody disagree with that?

A number of Palestinian Catholics have immigrated to the Sacramento area in California, and I spoke with a number of them. They told me they came to the United States because it was getting too difficult for them to live in Palestine, and they no longer felt secure there. I met a number of Palestinian Catholics in Palestine in 1999, and they seemed to be living quite well there at the time - but times have gotten tough for them lately.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 02:38 AM

I fail to see why is is important to ascertain whether one group or another is the most persecuted.

I feel the same Joe, but The Vatican put it out and I thought it worthy of discussion here.
(I reopened the thread when Canterbury came out with the same point.)

I expected some dissent and a lot of apathy.
I was not prepared for the vitriolic attacks made on me for just mentioning it.
Why did it make people, Greg, Jim, Don T, ..... so very angry with me?

Greg described the OP as an "Opus Preposterous"
Every word came from the BBC news report linked to.
What drives him?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 03:54 AM

" I do not believe he would stand up and blatantly lie on the world stage."
The whole of the Catholic heirarch has stood up and lied on the world stage on the question of how the church covered up child abuse - and continues to do so.
If any good has come from the affair it is that the Church will never again be trusted in a position of authority in Ireland again.
And then, of course, there's Pope Pius X11...
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 03:58 AM

The whole of the Catholic heirarch has stood up and lied on the world stage on the question of how the church covered up child abuse

And that lie has been exposed.
This statement has not even been challenged, except by the Mudcat Stasi.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 05:03 AM

You have just claimed that the Pope would not lie (or maybe one of your experts said it and you're just repeating it). He would, did, and continues to lie and cover up and affair that has shaken the Catholic (Christian) church to its roots - which makes your statement somewhat crass really - as you yourself have just pointed out "And that lie has been exposed.".
It is you who head the Satsi here in covering up, excusing and ignoring human rights abuses, by church and state - try and get your act together.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 05:55 AM

It is you who head the Satsi here in covering up, excusing and ignoring human rights abuses,

I have done none of those things.
Again, Jim is hate driven to attack me personally with false accusations, just for reporting this research.
It says more about you than me Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 06:59 AM

Oh dear Keith - you've just made one of your superb crassisms then contradicted yourself - and have the good grace to even acknowledge or defend it, let alone admit to it - nothing new under the sun.
As for my hating you - other than your persistant displays of racism, bigotry, defence of civil and human rights abuses, war crimes, the return to racial segregation..... and all the other characteristics that go into your make-up - I don't know you enough to hate you - just to despise your sub-species.
Most religions, given the power and opportunity, persecute in the name of their particular deity - that's part of what they are. To defend one and decry the other seems to be part of what you are.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 07:20 AM

Tap Tap Tap

Bang Bang Bang.

"How are the carpenters getting on? I need some more wood here!"

Tap Tap Tap

Bang Bang Bang

"Right! Pass me another couple of Christians!"

Sorted.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 07:41 AM

Oh dear Keith - you've just made one of your superb crassisms then contradicted yourself - and have the good grace to even acknowledge or defend it, let alone admit to it - nothing new under the sun.

I have no idea what this sentence is about or what it means.
Does anyone?
Help us out Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 08:25 AM

I do understand " persistant displays of racism, bigotry, defence of civil and human rights abuses, war crimes, the return to racial segregation....."

All lies.
Just hate driven lies.
Why not just argue the issues?
Because you can't?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 08:58 AM

"Just hate driven lies."
If we didn't have your own statements as evidence of your character, I have 20-odd PMs of an increasingly disturbing obsessive and racist nature to confirm my view of you - never had my own personal stalker before!
Why not argue the issue - why bother?
You've been told often enough that you don't read what others have to say - you don't even bother denying it.
Your arguments are as illogical, unreasoning and unpleasant as are all racist's; you admit to being ignorant on the subjects you involve yourself with and, when cornered, you blame somebody else for them..
As I said, why bother?
The best bit of advice I have received recently is to leave you to your own devices and let you show yourself up for what you are - I couldn't do a better job of that in a million years.
And please stop whingeing that I hate you - nobody cares that much to hold such strong feelings for you or your 'ideas'.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 09:21 AM

More lies Jim.
My pms are as restrained and rational as my posts.
Why not post one?
The most "disturbing obsessive and racist" one you can find!
If you are not lying.

Why bother to argue the issues?
Because that is what normal people do.
All you want to do is talk about me, or rather the rabid monster you make me out to be.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 10:41 AM

"Why not post one?"
Would you like the one that claims that Muslims are culturally corrupt because they marry first cousins?
You should have copies - you post them - I have no inclination to continue arguing with a racist brick-wall
Jim Caroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 11:22 AM

This is the one that mentions cousin marriage Jim.


You have made a twat of yourself on recent threads, and so have I.
I know that you are no twat.
I read and admire the stuff you post above the line.
That is why I persevere with this.
I really am no racist, and I would love to straighten out the misunderstanding.

Why have you ignored the distinction between "believe" and "opinion" ?
The diagnosis, and the weather forecast?

I believe the universe began as an infinitely small region of space time 14.4 billion years ago.
I even teach it to my students, but it would be vastly overstating my knowledge to describe it as my opinion !
And yet, one year ago, I knew far more about the conditions of the early universe than BP culture.
I just could not have an opinion about it.

Nowhere is there a reference to the Pakistani culture being corrupt, no "All male Pakistanis being degenerate, no "cultural implants
True. And I have never claimed any of those things.

The offending was linked by the 5 to these specific aspects of the culture.
Late marriage for men.
No intimate relationships before marriage.
Unhappy arrange marriages, usually between cousins.
Remember now?
All the men are exposed to that culture are they not?
Culture influences behaviour does it not?

You say I did not establish the over-rep, but every contributor acknowledged it except you and Don.
When I achieved that I withdrew from the debate.
Remember?
That was my case. I did not care why they did it.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 12:21 PM

Victoria and Albert were first cousins..

In fact we made a commune for married first cousins here in The UK.

I reckon we called it Norfolk.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 02:05 PM

For jokes.....I prefer Jim Knowledge meself!

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: ollaimh
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 11:10 AM

well here are all the usual suspects again. where do youse guys get the time to read and write all this clap trap.

it's a same all the christians and muslums can't be put onto another world to fight ot out and leave good people alone.

all the god based religions are militartist and repressive and the sooner we get free of them the better. it's hard to imagine a non fundamentalist sustem being worse.

here in canada the local native rights people have dug up the first unmarked graves of native children on residential school property. unmarked graves that weren't supossed to exist. the schools former owner the anglican church has iswsued threats to all employees that they will be fired of tey talk about the the documants they are hiding that confirm they were aware native children were dying of malnutrition and deprival of health care,while in their care.

bishop bennett you should be ashamed.

this after the "truth and reconcilliation commission" has been supported by the child murdering churches. they want lots of reconcilliation , but not much truth.

really it's time to shut down these crazy churches that have betrayed every teaching of christ. catholic anglican and protestant. start new churches with observation of the principles in the sermon on the mount. give away the money to the poor and environmental and social justice causes, and help others.

of course muslims art just as bad but i live where christians are the murderers of children. and it's time to come clean and stop doing the devils work .christians should have a slightly higher calling.

merry christmass all

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 11:45 AM

And a very merry Christmas back to you.

Should we take it that you are happy for any religious group to be persecuted, because the bastards deserve it?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 06:19 PM

Of course, government soldiers killing children is very much part of the Christmas story. As is having to go into exile to get away from them.

The bits that tend to get to get slightly overlooked.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 01:39 AM

It is so hard to find a nice card depicting the Slaughter Of The Innocents.
A real gap in the market.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 03:50 AM

Maybe there's some peace and goodwill to be found here - on the other hand, it might be "leftie lies".
Jim Carroll

IRISH TIMES Dec 14th
JEWISH SETTLERS ATTACK ISRAELI BASE
Clashes take place as rights groups warn on settlements
MARK WEISS in Jerusalem and MICHAEL JANSEN

AS JEWISH, settlers and right-wing activists broke into an Israeli army base in the West Bank, inter¬national human rights groups were warning that Israel had stepped up unlawful home demolitions and settlement construction in East Jerusalem and the West Bank.
There were calls within Israel yesterday for militant settler groups to be classified as terrorist organisations after co-ordinated incidents against soldiers and army bases on Monday night.
Israeli Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu called the events intol¬erable and held emergency consul¬tations with defence officials.
"We must deal with these rioters with a firm hand. We will not tolerate a situation in which Israel Defence Forces officers and soldiers are attacked and dis¬tracted from protecting Israeli citizens," he said.
After rumours spread that the army was about to dismantle a number of illegal settler outposts, about 50 militant youths entered
the regional Israel Defence Forces base near the West Bank town of Qalqilya, pushing aside the two sol¬diers on guard duty. Inside the base the settlers ran amok, slashing army vehicle tires, lighting fires and damaging prop¬erty.
Elsewhere, some 300 settlers hurled stones at Palestinian vehi¬cles before targeting the jeep of a senior West Bank officer. The officer was called a Nazi and lightly wounded after being hit by a rock.
In a third incident, settlers entered a closed military zone close to the border with Jordan and took over an abandoned struc¬ture next to a Christian baptism site. This group said they were pro¬testing Jordanian efforts to pre¬vent the construction of a perma¬nent bridge for Jews and tourists to the Temple Mount holy site in Jerusalem's old city.
Meanwhile, 20 international human rights and aid agen¬cies warned the Middle East Quartet - comprising the US, UN, EU and Russia - that during the past year the Israeli government had stepped up unlawful home demolitions and settlement construction in East Jerusalem and the West Bank, "pushing Palestinians to the brink" and "destroying prospects for a just and durable peace".
Trocaire, Amnesty International, Oxfam International, Human Rights Watch and Medico International said: "Since the beginning of the year more than
500 Palestinian homes. wells, rainwater harvesting cisterns other essential structures have been   destroyed ... displacing more than 1,000 Palestinians."
They said this was more than double the number of people dis¬placed over the same period in 2010 and the highest figure since 2005. "More than half of those displaced have been children for whom the loss of their home is par¬ticularly devastating," they added. In a statement issued ahead of a Jerusalem meeting of the quartet, the agencies said "plans for 4,000 new settler housing units have been approved for East Jerusalem over the past 12 months - the highest number since . . . 2006", while in November Israel declared it would "speed up construction of 2,000" additional units in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. Expansion has been accompanied by a rise in violent attacks by settlers on Palestinians of more than "50 per cent compared to 2010 and by over 160 per cent com¬pared to 2009", said the agencies, quoting UN figures. This means settler violence has risen to the level of the peak year of 2005.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 04:32 AM

You seem to have got the threads mixed up again Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 04:46 AM

Nope - you asked for Christmas cheer, you got it.
Complaining about one brand of religious/racial persecution while defending another is what this argument is about as fa as I'm concerned - unless you want to make yet another takeover bid for a thread
Of course you might have complained about olliam's somewhat inarticulate racist rant - but that's rather more in line with your own views.
Read the article for a change
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 05:22 AM

you asked for Christmas cheer, you got it.
Er, no-one did Jim.

Complaining about one brand of religious/racial persecution while defending another
Er, no-one has done that either.

What is this about Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 05:33 AM

Oh dear ~~~

Here we go round the mulberry bush,
The mulberry bush, the mulberry bush

It's in DT s.t. Mulberry Bush

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 06:51 AM

"Er, no-one has done that either."
Support for Zionist terrorism - appeal for persecuted Christians
So we don't get to discuss religious persecution other than against Christians or racial segregation in US churches - anything else we shouldn't know about?
"Here we go round the mulberry bush,"
I have always thought smugness often comes with high higher education - thanks for the confirmation.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 07:04 AM

This thread was prompted by a report that claimed Christians are the most persecuted religious group.
I do not know why that made so many Mudcatters so angry.

No-one I have seen has supported any terrorism, apart from one person who defends the Gazan rockets as self-defence.

If I come across as smug, I apologise.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 08:35 AM

"No-one I have seen has supported any terrorism, "
You have been supporting Zionist State terrorism through at least two threads - you have claimed it as acceptable "self defence", you have downgraded massacres to "failure to prevent", you have condoned the killing of "hostages (sic)" you have "just put the Israelis case" while accusing everybody else of being biased.
In the light of this, you have little chance of channeling any discussion on religious persecution just around your particular 'flavour of the month'.
You choose not to go near the suggestion that most religions would and have used persecution as a method of prozletising their cause if they find themselves in a position to do so - The British Empire was built on such persecution.
No-one has supported the Gazan rockets as being anything but "inevitable in the face of State aggression, persecution and war crimes - if you have evidence of this not being the case, please produce it, or stop repeatedly lying - you have already admitted that this is not true.
You have chosen to make this yet another branch of Muslim/racist bigotry - do not complain about this being pointed out to you.
My reference to smugness was aimed at Tinkerbell, your fairy godmother - you have nothing to be smug about.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,keith A
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 08:55 AM

Jim, I wish you had a friend who would talk to you about all this.

Ollaimh's post. I have no time for his posts, but they do not contain racism! ("racist diatribe")
You just see it everywhere!

You have chosen to make this yet another branch of Muslim/racist bigotry
A delusion or a dream Jim.
You can certainly not justify that.

If you want to make this all about me again, do it by pm., but much better you have an actual talk with someone about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 09:09 AM

I'm not sure mudcatters, in the collective sense, are angry by a report about Christians being persecuted.

I can only speak for me.

I am dubious of the claim to be "the most" as this deflects from the sad state that the old planet is constantly in where lots of people get persecuted for their faith and many more persecute others. Evem more so, I note it is only Christians who are abusing their status as politicians in order to either enforce their faith on others, (carrying on and defending Sunday opening etc) or trying to get their faith exempt from laws that promote decency and tolerance, (Equality Act, Charities Act, etc.) I also note the Church of England has officially encouraged their members to speak out and accuse everybody else of persecuting them by having equality laws. Hypocrisy is an art best best practiced when your silly pointy hat has historically given you power over others.

The article in the original post was, according to the source, approved by The Vatican. I'm glad they approved it. After all, they know a bit about persecution, and not just historically.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 11:08 AM

Guest post confirmed as mine.
Fair points Ian, but there was a lot of anger expressed over this.

Jim, do you really believe I have a fairy godmother called Tinkerbell who you can talk to?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 11:21 AM

"I have always thought smugness often comes with high higher education - thanks for the confirmation."
.,,.,.

Please, Jim ~~ no shoulder-chips: they are an intolerable burden.

Think he meant me, Keith, tho cannot quite follow the reasoning.

☤Tink☤

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST, Eb
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 11:37 AM

I don't understand this thread's thesis and what the opening post was meant to evoke.

* Of course, Christians are persecuted.
* Of course, Muslims are persecuted.
* Of course, minorities are persecuted.
** All of them - and many more - in various and multiple places.

If the OP's wish was to deplore the state of the world, he didn't manage it.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 11:46 AM

The OP thought it was an interesting claim that might provoke an interesting discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 11:50 AM

Anyhow, Jim ~ sorry & all that, but I have that reputation for 'legendary pedantry' mentioned on another forum to live up to --one doesn't need higher education to know that Tinkerbell and the Fairy Godmother are quite distinct characters belonging to entirely different Yuletide entertainments.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 01:21 PM

Oh no they're not!....

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 02:02 PM

The OP thought it was an interesting claim...

"Interesting?"

Despite what the Opus Preposterous thought, I think its bullshit.

And I'm not alone.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 02:10 PM

Come, Keith ~ don't tell me you don't know your Cinders from your Pan...

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 02:35 PM

As I have said before, those who wish to see "religion" abolished, are in the main following a political agenda.

Most are "liberals" who see religion, especially Christianity, as the last bastion of conservatism.
Dont expect any sympathy for persecution, or respect for your beliefs from these people, for they are liberal in name only.

The tide in the UK is beginning to turn away from the "anything goes society",the coming struggle for survival in Western economies will put an end to most of the idiocies.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 02:51 PM

Greg, the OP was just the BBC news report.

You think it "bullshit" and you might be right.
But how do you KNOW that the research is flawed?
How can you be CERTAIN it is not, possibly, true?

I worry about people who just "know" unknowable things.
It smacks of superstition.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 02:53 PM

Michael, do you need higher education to know that the correct response is,
"Oh yes they are!" ?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 02:58 PM

You'd better look BEHIND YOU!

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 04:12 PM

But how do you KNOW that the research is flawed?
How can you be CERTAIN it is not, possibly, true?

And conversely, Keith, how do you KNOW that the research is NOT flawed?
How can you be CERTAIN it is not, likely, bullshit?

Lets see some documettation for the Opus Preposterous- then we'll talk.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 06:11 PM

"I note it is only Christians who are abusing their status as politicians in order to either enforce their faith on others..."

That is a truly astonishing assertion by Ian Mather. I don't doubt that you believe it to be the case, Ian, but it just ain't true. There are many many countries where any non-Christian politician who doesn't do what you deny anyone does would be risking their career, or indeed their very life.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 06:49 PM

""It does seem clear that Christians are persecuted in some countries, particularly the ancient Christian churches that existed in the Middle East since before Islam came to be. Does anybody disagree with that?""

No Joe, I don't think any of us disagree with that.

The reasons for taking Keith to task have to do with his constantly taking up an extreme and untenable position on any subject to do with interaction of Christians or Jews with Muslims.

His agenda is invariably to denigrate Muslims as a group, by highlighting every instance of aggression on their part, no matter at whom directed, while at the same time ignoring, or denying that they are suffering any aggression at others' hands.

When he makes one single post which exhibits any balance of viewpoint, I shall leave him alone, but please don't hold your breath while waiting for him to do that.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 07:19 PM

You would "leave him alone"?
I doubt that all your shouting and abuse, causes Keith anything other than mild amusement.
He has provided numerous examples of Christians being persecuted, whereas you have produced nothing to further your arguement.
Not one serious case of religious persecution of other faiths by Christians at this time.

Christ taught us to be non aggressive, to turn the other cheek, a philosophy of love.

I'm afraid you do not qualify.....please try again.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Stringsinger
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 07:24 PM

Christians are persecuted in foreign lands, Africa, Arab countries, Pakistan and other places but Muslims are persecuted in the United States, India and Israel. Mosques have been burnt. The problem is not just Christian persecution but ignoring the US First Amendment and the right to believe whatever you want if it doesn't harm others.

To set up a single instance of religious persecution is a red-herring to bait other religions that you don't like.

As an American, I have learned to tolerate many religions that I don't accept or particularly respect but I do respect the right of anyone to believe anything they want as long as it doesn't harm anyone.

Allowing guns into Christian worship services is worse than crying "fire" in a crowded theater, a complete misreading and distortion of the Second Amendment, as well as being hypocritical and hypoChristianical.

How many guns did Jesus own, for example?
'
Another question, who on this site is an authority on the Quran and it's meanings?
There seems to be a lot of speculation here that if applied to the Bible, would make the latter document offensive.

Religion has always been an excuse for hatred by some, no matter which one cited.

When violence becomes the modus operandi for religious expression, hypocrisy and corruption prevail, to whit, Constantine, Saladin, Hitler, John Bull, Savonarola, the KKK,
and all the churches that have practiced it.

Why is it that war and religion are most often together?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 07:37 PM

Well Frank....I am an atheist, but most of the aggressive rhetoric I hear comes from "my own side"

In fact I find it sickening at times, I know many people who gain the strength to carry on their lives through the teachings of Christ and their faith. People are not all born equal, some are weak and some are strong, some need sociability, some need solitude,some need the faith in something stronger than themselves......who are we to deny them?

I think Jesus was a great philosopher, he was no warmonger.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 12:56 AM

Don,
His agenda is invariably to denigrate Muslims as a group,

That is simply not true.
I have never done that.
I have put Israel's case at times when no-one else did, and I have challenged the veracity of some anti-Israel propaganda.

Greg, you have expressed certainty.
I never have.
I have just said, "You think it "bullshit" and you might be right."

I have put up evidence, not proof.
The Vatican statement, and the reports and research behind it, has not been challenged even by the many enemies of the Church.
The Guardian, which finds space to report the antics of a few hillbillies, found no-one to accuse the Pope of bearing false witness.
So I ask you again Greg.
How do you KNOW that the research is flawed?
How can you be CERTAIN it is not, possibly, true?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 01:46 AM

Stringsinger,
Muslims are persecuted in the United States,

You are not comparing like with like.
The persecution referred to here is murder, imprisonment, rape, and seizure of property.

Also, it results in people being driven out, not welcomed in!
Christian communities are dwindling in the face of persecution.
Muslim communities are not declining anywhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 09:14 AM

Sorry McGraw, I should have made clear I was writing about in UK Parliamentary terms. I did originally say that but wasn't happy with the rest of a paragraph and cut the lot.. My bad.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 09:19 AM

Just out interest Akenaton, as you wax lyrical about people needing faith and who are we to deny them.. Are you as inclusive these days when talking of those who bowl from the pavilion end?

You see, tolerance is not exclusive to tolerating religions..

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 09:37 AM

I have put up evidence

No, Keith, you have put up supposition and opinion.

No evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 09:51 AM

England is a small country in a big world, Ian...

So for that matter is the USA, relatively speaking.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 09:59 AM

Greg, there are the cited reports and the lack of any challenge.
The issue made the news, and I put it in the OP.
I am not certain it is true.
How are you SO certain it is not, and why are you so hostile to it being discussed on our forum?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 01:18 PM

""I am not certain it is true.
How are you SO certain it is not, and why are you so hostile to it being discussed on our forum?""

For one who is uncertain that it is true, you are expending a huge amount of energy trying to persuade everybody that it is.

WHY?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 02:14 PM

But I have not tried to persuade anyone that it is true Don.
Read my posts.
If I am honest, I was hoping to raise awareness of the issue, but that is all.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 02:31 PM

It's becoming increasingly unclear what is being referred to in expressions such as "it is true". This is a long thread, and a lot of issues have been touched upon.

Persecution of religious minorities is clearly going on in many parts of the world, and none of the significant religions escapes being both victims and perpetrators. That much is clear, and important - drawing up league tables of who has the worst record, either as victim or perpetrator, seems pretty pointless.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 02:50 PM

My point exactly Kevin.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Stringsinger
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 03:06 PM

Keith,

Christians have historically have done their share of murdering, imprisoning, rape or seizure of property, so it is too "like with like".

Christians are not dying out.   The majority of people in the US today are Christians.
They are all over Europe and in many Asian countries as well.

Muslim communities in the US are going underground because they are being targeted by Federal investigators. Mosques are being burnt and Muslims beaten and sometimes killed.

It's all very bad and a byproduct of religious intolerance that is not just one-sided.

It seems to be a pattern in every religion.

To paint Christians or Muslims with the same brush seems to me the height of intolerance and propaganda.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Stringsinger
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 03:11 PM

Aketon, if you refer to those on your side as atheists, I would challenge your view that they are as intolerant as you say. In fact, many atheists know more about the bible and koran than the followers of those tomes. Many atheists have come from religious backgrounds and have experienced the damage that was done to them by their parents, priests, rabbis, ministers and parishioners.   In my experience, they are usually more tolerant and understanding then those in their environment that they have left.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 03:54 PM

There is nothing to disagree with in Kevin's post.
I do not feel contradicted by it. What is your point about it Don?
I can not think of any examples of Christian persecutors, but perhaps there are some somewhere.

Stringsinger, it would be massive thread drift to take into consideration all the wrongs done in the whole of history.
I am only considering the present.
The persecution of Muslims in US has not been reported here, to my knowledge.
What is the scale of the mosque burnings please, and how do US Muslims go "underground."

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 04:06 PM

Aww did someone get another boo boo? Every December this same thread shows up.

Please be careful next December.


---


Now I will go back and actually read this thread...


Hmm, how did right wing Jews end up as the target?


To me its all one ongoing new and improved competitive religion business.
Christianity was derived from Judaism, Judaism was derived from Egyptian lore, Egyptian priests derived their lore from Assyria and the Nep Tepi...

Oh yes and Islam was derived from Christianity.


Thank goodness the eastern religions evolved on a seperate tree although the Greeks shared some multi god qualities with the east.

As for the Aztecs, I wonder if they should have mixed cocaine with mushrooms. Great astromomy but a pretty sick sacrificial society.

Opps my irrelevancy alarm just went off..,


I decided to have a diverse religious family. I am a cultural Jew (Secular humanist), My wife is Catholic ( the Cafeteria sect), my oldest is Amish (he doesn't get any elecricity or devices) and the youngest is Zoroastrian. (We don't know anything about Zoroastrianism so he probably is getting away with all sorts of things)

As for institutional, persecution and execution, can't we all just have restitution of education and meditation and be done with it?


Share don't compare.
quote Hugh Romeney.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 04:48 PM

I can not think of any examples of Christian persecutors, but perhaps there are some somewhere.

Check out the wars that followed the break-up of Yugoslavia, Keith. Plenty of examples. And plenty of examples of Muslims in the driving seat too, of course.

And of course there's also Christian on Christian persecution - and Muslim on Muslim as well.

I can't understand how there seems this appetite on the part of some people to talk as if the fact that someone expresses distress at one lot of persecution implies they are happy about other persecution.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 05:09 PM

I know there is lots of persecution going on.
It hardly needs saying.
NATO actually went to war to stop the Christians persecuting Muslims in the Balkans.
Now, I can not think of any examples of Christian persecutors, but perhaps there are some somewhere.
The Pope and Canterbury did not ask anyone to go to war with persecutors, just to stop being so nice to them.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 06:04 AM

"Christian persecutors,"
A footnote to a discussion on Christian persecution:
An official report just made public shows that 800 Dutch clergymen have been found to have abused a total of 20,000 children between the years 1945 and 1985.
There is no reason to believe that the abuse suddenly ceased after that date.
I wonder if this qualifies as 'Christian persecution' and if it does, is it counted as serious or minor?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 06:16 AM

So all Christians deserve to be persecuted.
Right Jim?
Stringsinger, many Christian communities ARE dwindling to extinction in the face of an onslaught of unrelenting persecution.
I know they are OK in US thanks.

Greg, are you going to give us the grounds for your certainty?
Whether true or not, the claims are believable, and worthy of consideration.
How and why can you just dismiss them as "preposterous" and "bullshit"?
You have the blind, irrational certainty of a fundamentalist.
Is that a fair description of you?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 07:04 AM

"So all Christians deserve to be persecuted."
Who has said this apart from yourself?
You said you couldn't think of Christians persecuting anybody - I gave you 20,000 examples
Only you have defended persecution here and elsewhere.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 07:37 AM

Jim ~With respect [& I do really mean that], I think you are over-defining 'persecution' here. Those priests were not persecuting the children, they were abusing them. I am not trying to adjudge as to the greater or lesser iniquity between the two activities; but simply adducing this as an important distinction between two quite separate, tho both much-to-be-deplored, forms of misbehaviour. Priests who interfere sexually with children within their charge are guilty of 'abuse'; 'persecution' means oppressing or maltreating people, from a superior power-base, because of their ethnicity &/or their beliefs. Conflating these as you appear to me to be doing simply obfuscates, rather than clarifies, this important question.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 08:03 AM

"So all Christians deserve to be persecuted."

That was the only explanation I could think of for your posting about child abuse on this thread!

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 09:10 AM

That is juggling with semantics Mike
The clergy has been abusing children, probably for centuries here in Ireland.
The church has utilised their authority "from a superior power base" to not only cover up the abuse, but to allow it to continue by passing on the abusers to other parishes, and when it has got out of hand they have moved on the offenders to African countries, where, apparently, abuse does not matter. The Catholic heirarchy are still using their "superior - (though now waning) power base" - in an attempt to hamper enquiries into the abuse.
If I had children starting school here I would have almost no alternative but to have them educated as Catholics unless I was lucky enough to enrol them in one of the tiny handful of 'Educate Together' schools, in which case they would have to travel 20 odd miles to the nearest - a small pre-fabricated building on the outskirts of our market town.
Not sure of the present situation but up to comparatively recently, if a Catholic wished to marry a non Catholic and retain his/her religion they would have to give an undertaking to have any children educated as Catholics (a wonderful film 'A Love divided' showing the effects this had on a family bassed on an actual event in the 1950s) - a form of brainwashing as far as I'm concerned - as the Jesuits said "Give me a child until he is seven and I will give you the man".
Religious persecution has been a fact of life here in Ireland for centuries - (look up the 'soup schools' as far back as The Famine)
All of this, as far as I can see, fits comfortably within your definition of persecution - not killing, rape or imprisonment, but every bit as devatating to those affected.
It also illustrates the point I have been making throughout this thread (and which none of the critics of 'Christian Persecution' have even acknowledged, let alone answered) that most religions will persecute and abuse in the furtherence of their religion if they are in the position to do so
With equal respect - and I also sincerely mean that.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 09:12 AM

"That was the only explanation I could think of for your posting about child abuse on this thread! "
You are not noted for your breadth of imagination Keith - it ususlly doesn't extend beyond cut-'n-pastes
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 09:39 AM

The clerical abuse of children is a most serious and damning issue.
In consequence it has been extensively debated here, with threads dedicated to it.
But, it has no bearing on this totally unrelated issue.
It is irrelevant, unless you are claiming that their lust for children was impregnated by their Christian culture.
Are you claiming that Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 09:43 AM

I suppose there might be something to be said for havin all purpose argy-bargy threads in which we bash around bringing in different issues about which we have had disagreements with other people on other threads.

Rather more to be said, I feel, though for keeping our different quarrels, or preferably disagreements, in separate threads.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 11:37 AM

--"That is juggling with semantics Mike
The clergy has been abusing children, probably for centuries here in Ireland.
The church has utilised their authority "from a superior power base" to not only cover up the abuse, but to allow it to continue by passing on the abusers to other parishes, and when it has got out of hand they have moved on the offenders to African countries, where, apparently, abuse does not matter."--

.,,.

Sorry, Jim, but I think you are semantically confused, & playing the HumptyDumpty definitions game. The posters between your response to my last and this one of mine appear to agree that you are confusingly conflating two different categories, for the purpose, mainly, of working off scores & resentments against a particular branch of Xtianity, rather than addressing the topic of this thread, which is persecution of or by Christians of or by members of other faiths.

None of us is disagreeing with you about the iniquity of the abuses [in more than one sense] which you relate. But it is not mere semantic juggling to point out that you are making a category error in conflating this with the actual topic which this thread sets out to discuss. We have had numerous threads on the other matter also, where you have cogently made the points which you are endeavouring, erroneously, to interpolate here.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 12:38 PM

Sorry again Mike - between your last post and here is McGrath's (who I usually more or less agree with), and Keith's who... well.... even his best friends couldn't accuse him of honesty and even-handed - open-mindedness.
Inter - Christian disagreements have led to 90 years of unrest within these Islands - at least 20 of those culminationg in extremely bloody warfare. Persecution of one group of Christians by another is now pretty well accepted as the main reason for the unrest and bloodshed, and to set it apart from Muslims persecuting Christinas, or Jews perscuting Muslims is, I feel, missing the point.
It is not a case of 'which religion' - but religion itself overstepping its role which is the root of all religious persecution.
If it was merely a a case of the church having clergymen who were abusing children, perhaps you might have a point (though the fact that these individuals used the religious authority that their position brought them expands it far beyond that).
The fact that the Church as an organisation actively protected the abusers, enabled the abuse to continue, silenced those who threatened to expose the criminals with both spiritual and social consequences and continues to attempt to hide the facts surrounding the abuses - all this makes it a classic case of wholesale religious persecution by a Christian church.
The Dutch example shows that we still have no idea of the extent of these abuses - within these islands we have yet to learn how far they occured in the UK (including Northern Ireland - not to mention The Magdaline Laundries in the South).
The fact that all these are cases of a religious body (as a whole) using its position in society to carry out wholesale abuses on the weakest and most vunerable among us, makes it a classic case of religious persecution by by an extremely powerful Christian church, plain and simple.
It might be convenient for some to claim 'thread drift' - but my point remains unchallenged (or even acknowledged) - virtually all religious bodies have used (and will again - given the opportunity) use their position to persecute - whether it's their own followers or other those of other beliefs.
McGrath - I have made an effort to cool it as far as Keith is concerned - difficult when my arguments continue to be distorted and mis-represented.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 03:47 PM

Apart from all that Jim, what is your opinion on the subject of this thread?
i.e. in the world today, while persecution is all too prevalent, the persecution of Christian minorities is under recognised and under reported, and possibly more prevalent than other religious persecution.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 05:18 PM

Distortion and misrepresentation is evident on the part of rather a wide spectrum of people posting here. That's what tends to happen when we are too confident that we are in the right in a discussion which has flowered into a quarrel.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 05:47 AM

My opinion is as stated - religious persecution in any shape or form is evil, it is forcibly imposing religions on people who have no wish to be part of them.
To single out any particular brand of persecution as being "worse" or "better" or to suggest any form of persecution is acceptable because 'others do it' is to excuse it and allow it to flourish.
To demand that we should single out and deplore any one persecuted group and ignore others it to show bias - it is asking that we remove it from its context in order to score political/religious points - , thanks but no thanks - damn them/you all,
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 06:13 AM

Would that be "damned to hell" then?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 07:16 AM

To single out any particular brand of persecution as being "worse" or "better"

Why state that Jim, when no-one has ever, even suggested such a ludicrous thing?

More widespread only.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 08:04 AM

"Would that be "damned to hell" then? "
Oh - that reminds me - damn all homophobes as well.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 08:27 AM

Anything that I agree with comes under better, anything I disagree with comes under worse.

I suspect that applies to us all......

Of course, like Jim, we could always damn them all. That way, we all get our turn in the barrel.

Gawb Bless us, one and aarrlll...

I preferred this thread when it was about being outraged by bigots twisting their faith to promote their odious views. I enjoy pointing and laughing at God botherers, but that is far cry from hating the buggers....

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 08:51 AM

Agreed Ian, I dont hate the buggers either, regardless of what Jim thinks.....

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 08:56 AM

Still, I dont understand how you can see the religious stance stance on "Gay marriage", as "bigots twisting their faith to promote their odious views."

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 09:11 AM

"Stance! Stance! wherever you may be!"

Sorry:0(......I'll get me crucifix.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 11:39 AM

There is nothing unreasonable in addressing the evident fact that currently the victims of religious persecution tend to be Christians. This probably hasn't been the case in other times - the world changes, and so do the religions.

I would imagine that one factor is that in some countries Christian are liable to be identified with former colonial regimes, very unfairly most of the time.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 11:53 AM

currently the victims of religious persecution tend to be Christians

Documentation, please.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 03:56 PM

Just from the rapidly declining numbers of Christians in Muslim majority states it should be obvious that something is very wrong. According to a US Department of State report on religious freedom, there are now just 85 000 Christians in Turkey, down from 2 million. In Lebanon, where they once constituted a majority, they now make up no more than one-third of the population. Once as much as half the population in Syria, they now constitute perhaps 4%. In Jordan, they make up 2%, when they were once close to one in five.

Especially ironical is how the US-led invasion of Iraq, rather than benefiting the Christian population, has had exactly the opposite effect. Once kept in check by the Saddam regime, hard-core Islamists have now been left free to persecute their Christian neighbours and have done so relentlessly. The massacre of 37 worshipers at Baghdad's Sayyidat al-Najat Syrian Catholic Christian Church in October last year was just one of multiple incidents of anti-Christian violence in Iraq. That the law officially strongly opposes such acts makes little difference. In practice few are arrested, let alone punished, for attacks on religious minorities, even those involving murder. The impact of this undeclared reign of terror has been dramatic, with the Christian population — 1.4 million strong at the time of the 2003 Coalition invasion — dropping 50% in less than a decade.

For Egypt's embattled Coptic Christian minority, the Arab Spring in their country has been a disaster. One of the worst cases of violence against them took place only last month, where the military killed dozens of Christians (inter alia, video evidence shows armoured-vehicles running over civilians) protesting the destruction of their churches. The response of Western governments has been one of studied apathy. Indeed, it has been alleged that US President Barack Obama's top Muslim adviser blocks Middle Eastern Christians' access to the White House.

Earlier this year, the mainly Christian Southern Sudan was allowed to break away to form its own independent state. Prior to this, however, and for many years, hundreds of thousands of Sudanese Christians had been massacred, ethnically cleansed in massive numbers or (literally) enslaved.

Anti-Christian persecution is happening in the Palestinian territories as well. In Gaza, assaults, firebombings, seizures of homes and businesses and death threats against Christians happen continually and usually with impunity. Today, barely 3 000 Christians remain there. The West Bank's Christian population likewise has dropped sharply, even in Bethlehem, Christianity's birthplace.

What is now happening to Arab Christians has already happened to Jews in those countries. In the 20 years following the establishment of Israel, the North African and Middle Eastern Jewish communities left en masse after being subjected to systematic, usually state-orchestrated persecution. Well over 95% of those communities and their descendants now live elsewhere. It was one of the 20th century's forgotten enforced exoduses, and now it is happening all the time to Christians, likewise without eliciting much comment from the world at large.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 04:20 PM

Excellent Keith, factual and concise.

The Arab spring? more like a dangerous swamp.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST, Eb
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 06:39 PM

"...decided to have a diverse religious family. I am a cultural Jew (Secular humanist), My wife is Catholic ( the Cafeteria sect), my oldest is Amish (he doesn't get any elecricity or devices) and the youngest is Zoroastrian." Donuel

" my oldest is Amish (he doesn't get any elecricity or devices)"?

Highly unlikely. Doing without electricity or other devices in no way makes one Amish, Don.

That misstatement makes your whole contention suspect. I fail to see why you found it necessary to write such a ludicrous paragraph.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 02:54 AM

"They hung me up across an iron gate, then they yanked open the gate and my whole body lifted until my chest nearly split in two. I hung like that for four hours."
That is how Peter Xu Yongze, the founder of one of the largest religious movements in China, described his treatment during one of five jail sentences on account of his belief in Christianity.



Peter Xu Yongze was in jail for a total of eight years
Mr Xu, 61, is not the only Chinese Christian to suffer for his faith. Both Catholics and Protestants have long complained of persecution by the Communist authorities, and human rights groups claim the problem is getting worse.
According to the Jubilee Campaign, an interdenominational lobby group, about 300 Christians are in detention in China at any one time, and that number is set to rise.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/3993857.stm

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST, Eb
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 12:16 PM

A bemused thought here: If this thread were of 80 years ago, would the subject be the persecution of Jews?

There would have been even more reason to bewail the persecution of Jews then than of Christians today.

After all, Jews were persecuted- not because of their beliefs but because of things beyond their control: their birth.

Seriously, were there writers who took up the cudgel against the violence against Jews?

(I fully recognize that the 30s-40s in Germany were not the first, only or last offenses against Jews.)

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 02:53 PM

we can only hope that the new demigod of N Korea will be less vicious to faith groups.at present i understand it is the worst state for persecution of believers.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Sep 13 - 08:16 AM

"Three days after an attack on an Anglican church in Peshawar, Pakistan, left at least 85 people dead, Pope Francis today urged Christians to an examination of conscience about their response to such acts of anti-Christian persecution.
"So many Christians in the world are suffering," the pope said during his general audience this morning in St. Peter's Square. "Am I indifferent to that, or does it affect me like it's a member of the family?"

The Sept. 22 atrocity in Pakistan is the latest instance of a mounting wave of anti-Christian violence in different parts of the world.

According to the International Society for Human Rights in Frankfurt, Germany, 80 percent of all acts of religious discrimination in the world today are directed against Christians.

The Center for the Study of Global Christianity in the United States estimates that over the last decade, an average of 100,000 Christians have died each year in what the center calls a "situation of witness," meaning for motives related to their faith.

Though some experts regard that estimate as inflated, it works out to an average of 11 Christians killed each hour throughout the past decade.

Parts of the Middle East, the Indian subcontinent, and regions of sub-Saharan Africa tend to be the greatest danger zones, though there are recent examples of Christians experiencing violent persecution in many other parts of the world as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Sep 13 - 09:32 AM

Personally, I think that most "Christians"[sic] richly deserve any persecution they may get.

Why should they be exempt from what everyone else has to suffer?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket bemused
Date: 25 Sep 13 - 10:02 AM

Ok.

1. People from many religions are persecuted, mainly by people claiming to be religious.

2. Keith started this thread a long time ago with statistics provided by the Scottish head Catholic bloke who is now in disgrace, hidden away by the church to prevent the police from investigating him.

3. Awful and wrong, that's how I describe any persecution, whether it be religious, colour, sexual orientation or gender. From plotting inequality to murder, it's degrees of persecution.

But singling out one particular type, creed, and then one particular cult of creed, Christianity, ain't going to solve anything. Tackling intolerance for what it is, that's where you start. Protecting one cult and ignoring those who murder in it's name ain't going to cut much with those on their receiving end. That they are receiving more than others at the moment is a combination of awful circumstance and media interest, so we tend to know more. Ask a Sunni Muslim in Iran or a Shia Muslim in Iraq where persecution comes from in a the main, and it is each other.

One of the worst things that can happen is for William Hague to admonish China for persecution of Christians without equal emphasis on their persecution of Hindu, Muslim and Jews. After all, British citizens are British citizens and equal...

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Sep 13 - 01:07 PM

I agree with all that Musket, but if it is true that one "cult" is suffering significantly more than the others, is it not OK to draw attention to that?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket musing
Date: 25 Sep 13 - 01:45 PM

I think it is Keith. However the danger in the real world is international political and media attention can wittingly or unwittingly put Christianity on a pedestal which, as history shows, started many of the problems in the first place.

I was always taken by something Archbishop Desmond Tutu said. He said that when white settlers came to southern Africa, they had the Bible and the blacks had the land. They invited the blacks to close their eyes and pray. When they opened them again, the blacks had the Bible and the settlers had the land.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Sep 13 - 02:48 PM

On a pedestal?
Being the most persecuted is like being on a pedestal.
None should be on a pedestal.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 25 Sep 13 - 06:36 PM

it ought to go without saying, that in highlighting violence and murder ,or the imprisonment of Christians as being greater than of other faiths or orientations, that any such persecution is unacceptable.
but specifics may be more useful in campaigning than generalizations.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Sep 13 - 09:15 PM

The assumption that Christian communities in third world countries are relics of colonialism is not one that should automatically be accepted. In Middle Eastern countries such as Syria, Iraq, Egypt or Turkey, Christianity was the predominant religion long before the arrival of Islam.

Particularly in the light of the horrifying massacre in Peshawar, Greg's comment that such things serve Christians right is pretty disgusting. I am suppose there are people who would say precisely the same thing if an equivalent atrocity were to take place in a mosque, or a synagogue. I wonder if he would be one of them?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 08:53 AM

Disgusting, Kevin? You find the truth disgusting?

What's really disgusting is perpetuating the myth that " persecution or the imprisonment of Christians [ is ] greater than [ that ]of other faiths or orientations"

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 10:48 AM

I know a lot of people who have been, or have relatives who have been sexually persecuted by Christian clergymen if that's any help?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 11:43 AM

'According to my Catholic school education, we all have it coming because of the sins of the long-dead, namely the sins of Adam 'n' Eve. They call it original sin, and every man-jack among us is smeared with it - until we get christened into Catholicism, of course!'

I don't believe in original sin. All mine have been done before.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Stringsinger
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 12:00 PM

"No sympathy expressed so far.
Just sneering and hate."

It's difficult to have sympathy when in the US there are fundamentalist Christian religious figures and organizations that are inflicting their evangelistic beliefs on others claiming some kind of godly authority, often with violence.

I suspect an agenda here. We know that there are Jews for Jesus, and the fundamentalist prophecy of "end times" involves the domination of Israel over
its "enemies". We know that there are active fundamentalist groups who are
defending Israel's right to subjugate Palestinians because they are "heathens".
In fact, if you explore the bible, you'll find that the Palestinian people were referred
to in the Old Testament as "Philistines".

It's remarkable that the government of Israel encourages such an agenda on the part of fundamentalist Christians.

Christian "victimhood" is being used as a political ploy by these Fundamentalist
Christians to vindicate their employment of coercion and evangelism. They feel
that somehow they are closer to Jesus through persecution when in fact, the majority of US citizens are Christian and many exploit those citizens who are not.
These exploitive people do not deserve sympathy but a sad rebuke instead.

If Jesus existed, what we he say about his exploitive followers? What would
he say about the treatment of Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza today?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 12:11 PM

It's a fairly well established fact that any church with a modicum of power and influence will persecute and dominate to protect what it has - hence their tendency to invariably support whoever is in charge no matter what their particular philosophy and attitude to human rights.
Politics and religion has always been a toxic mix and so it shall remain, forever and ever, amen!
This doesn't mean that there aren't clergymen and women who buck the system, but these usually come to a bad end, and no doubt, go to hell!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 12:14 PM

"Personally, I think that most "Christians"[sic] richly deserve any persecution they may get."

"Personally, I think that most "Jews"[sic] richly deserve any persecution they may get."

"Personally, I think that most "Muslims"[sic] richly deserve any persecution they may get."

I suppose it depends on what you mean by"the truth"...

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 03:33 PM

String, the Pope is no fundamentalist.

I restarted the thread with this report.
Do you think it all just made up proaganda?

Three days after an attack on an Anglican church in Peshawar, Pakistan, left at least 85 people dead, Pope Francis today urged Christians to an examination of conscience about their response to such acts of anti-Christian persecution.
"So many Christians in the world are suffering," the pope said during his general audience this morning in St. Peter's Square. "Am I indifferent to that, or does it affect me like it's a member of the family?"

The Sept. 22 atrocity in Pakistan is the latest instance of a mounting wave of anti-Christian violence in different parts of the world.

According to the International Society for Human Rights in Frankfurt, Germany, 80 percent of all acts of religious discrimination in the world today are directed against Christians.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 04:02 PM

I suppose it depends on what you mean by "the truth"

Or what you mean by persecution.

Now, just for clarity, lets try the whole posting, shall we Kevin?:

"Personally, I think that most "Christians"[sic] richly deserve any persecution they may get. Why should they be exempt from what everyone else has to suffer?"

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 04:42 PM

And of course you'd be happy to replace "Christian" by "Jew" or Muslim"in that post. Or "gay" "black"...

Fortunately "what everyone else has to suffer' overstates the situation. Most of us, Christian, Jewish, Muslim or whatever don't have suffer persecution, though we certainly could in some places. But the people who do get persecuted, whatever minority they belong to in whatever part of the world, certainly don't "deserve whatever persecution they may get".

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 05:47 PM

Most of us, Christian, Jewish, Muslim or whatever don't have suffer persecution,

Well, Kevin, try telling that to the person that started this thread, OK?

Ta.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Stringsinger
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 05:56 PM

"String, the Pope is no fundamentalist."

So far, it seems as though he is more liberal than the past Popes. We'll see how he handles church doctrine in the future. He is trying to bring ex-Catholics back into the church.

"I restarted the thread with this report.
Do you think it all just made up proaganda?"

Not all of it. Coptic Christians are persecuted in Egypt and other Muslim countries.

Still, Christian Persecution is relatively small in the world compared to the persecution of other religions and also the non-belief community.

Christians often bring persecution on by insisting that their religion is the right one, though I don't support persecution of any religion or non-religion. The same biases might be said for any fundamentalist religion; when it becomes evangelical, it sets itself up
for push back. Unfortunately religion in general often turns violent because of its tendency toward tribalism; it becomes the persecuted and the persecutor.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 10:08 PM

Still, Christian Persecution is relatively small in the world compared to the persecution of other religions and also the non-belief community.

Actually I believe that the evidence is that at this time the reverse is the case. Still league tables in this kind of matter are pretty pointless.

What matters is that persecution of minorities is all too prevalent in the world. All kinds of minorities can find themselves affected, including whatever minority we might be part of. Underlying this is the belief, articulated by one person in this thread, that some categories of persecuted people deserve to be persecuted.

Incidentally the suggestion by Stringsinger that proselytising by those who believe the religion they hold is the right one underlies most persecution isn't borne out in the case of the Christian communities most under lethal persecution, who tend to have virtually no history of proselytising or evangelisation for centuries.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 10:14 PM

Still, Christian Persecution is relatively small in the world compared to the persecution of other religions and also the non-belief community.

Actually I believe that the evidence is that at this time the reverse is the case. Still league tables in this kind of matter are pretty pointless.

What matters is that persecution of minorities is all too prevalent in the world. All kinds of minorities can find themselves affected, including whatever minority we might be part of. Underlying this is the belief, articulated by one person in this thread, that some categories of persecuted people deserve to be persecuted.

Incidentally the suggestion by Stringsinger that proselytising by those who believe the religion they hold is the right one underlies most persecution isn't borne out in the case of the Christian communities most under lethal persecution, who tend to have virtually no history of proselytising or evangelisation for centuries.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 01:18 AM

Well. If we include all forms of superstition and clubs affiliated to the cause. ...

Those persecuted include;

Women
Gays
Anybody not part of their particular cult

Look at it that way and you don't have to differentiate between different cults.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 03:07 AM

These links indicate that there is an issue.
I also do not think such claims would be dismissed by contributors were it about any other ethnic/cultural group.

http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/between-errands-april-thompson/2013/sep/26/persecution-against-christian-inc

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/10264499/The-almost-unremarked-tragedy-of-Christians-persecuted-in-the-Middle-East.html

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 03:10 AM

Sorry, Washington Times link no good.

http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/between-errands-april-thompson/2013/sep/26/persecution-against-christian-increases-many-parts/

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket being patriotic
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 03:34 AM

Links to The Daily Torygraph don't tend to be much good either. ...

Something about Church of England being the Tory party at prayer?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 04:03 AM

So you think it is all made up Musket?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 04:08 AM

Guardian Tuesday.



"It's not safe for Christians in this country," said Mano Rumalshah, the bishop emeritus of Peshawar, who was standing in the courtyard, comforting sobbing parishioners who clasped his white robes.

"Everyone is ignoring the growing danger to Christians in Muslim-majority countries. The European countries don't give a damn about us."

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 05:21 AM

I would be very surprised if it were true, taking one place with another, and aggregating both small and large acts of discrimination, that there was more discrimination against Xtians (per capita) than any other religion. The daily life for example of any Muslim in the first world must surely be of being the discriminee.

True secularism is the only answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 05:45 AM

Is your surprise level evidence of anything Richard?
On what is it based?
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/01/08/us-religion-christianity-persecution-idUSBRE9070TB20130108

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 01:06 PM

Discrimination and persecution overlap, but they aren't the same thing. And they can both cover a wide range of things.

The evidence does seem to indicate that when it comes to people being in danger of death by reason of their religion, that's more likely to happen in the case of people belonging to minority Christian communities than to other religious minorities at this time in history. But I hold by my view that league tables about such things are irrelevant.

Typically this type of persecution tends not to be about people being targeted because of their religious beliefs, but because they belong to a rejected minority.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 01:34 PM

Wow look at all the posts. I think any thread about persecution would get lots of posts because people feel imagined persecution as well as real persecution in this two tiered class system.
While people may be correct about the persecuee they are seldom right about the persecuer.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 02:49 PM

There are unarguably states in the Muslim world where it is not only disadvantageous, but actually illegal, to practise Christianity; and, notoriously, some in which it is a judicial capital offence to convert from Islam to Christianity, and in which death sentences have actually been carried out in such cases.

OTOH, I am unaware of any Christian state in which the practice of any other religion is forbidden by law, and any doing so are visited by legal sanctions or punishments.

Can anyone correct me, and point to any instances of such, if this is not in fact the case?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 05:16 PM

good question.
I think some more offbeat religions have been restricted by law, but even if that has occurred, there was no risk of capital punishment.
I am sure that if a Christian state is currently executing citizens because of another faith our resident atheists will be pleased to inform us!

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 06:19 PM

It's a matter of chronology. Right now there aren't any Christian countries with those laws, but it isn't that long since there were quite a few. and there've been times in history when Muslim countries were significantly less intolerant of other religions than Christian.

Everyone seems to take it in turns to persecute minorities. You've even got Buddhists doing it to Muslims in Burma.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 07:00 PM

Because of the inherent human ability to 'interpret' the details and relevance of ANY religious belief, (almost) any group has at some time been persecuted... or done persecution.

"They are different from **us** and believe in something besides the 'true' faith, so we are perfectly justified in restricting what they do wherever we can!"

The "Merry Minuet" sums it all up for almost any group...religious or not..

♫"They're rioting in Africa. They're starving in Spain. There's hurricanes in Florida and Texas needs rain.
The whole world is festering with unhappy souls. The French hate the Germans. The Germans hate the Poles.
Italians hate Yugoslavs. South Africans hate the Dutch and I don't like anybody very much!
But we can be tranquil and thankful and proud for man's been endowed with a mushroom shaped cloud.
And we know for certain that some lovely day someone will set the spark off and we will all be blown away.
They're rioting in Africa. There's strife in Iran. What nature doesn't do to us will be done by our fellow man."♫

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 02:44 AM

I suppose atrocities committed yesterday have less excuse than those committed in the past.

Otherwise pete's question could be answered in terms of the crusades, inquisition and the British Raj method of dealing with those refusing to see the supremecy of Christianity, tying them to the mouths of cannons.

Yes. There is always going to be one cult that is oppressed more than any other. Bringing attention to suppression and persecution of just the one though runs the risk of it being seen as more worthy than the rest, pissing off their oppressors all the more and leading to further, I believe the popular term is martyrdom.

My main concern is that raising this fits in with the efforts of Christians and their leaders to regain the influence they once had in Western societies. I would be more sympathetic to armchair Christians raising it if they didn't keep trying to confuse religious freedom with religious privilege.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 03:00 AM

The Raj did not punish people for not being Christian, and the army formed units of various faiths, Hindu, Sikh and Muslim.

The gun muzzle executions were for those sentenced to death who feared no other kind of execution.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 03:02 AM

Those shot from cannons during & after the Indian Mutiny had done rather more than just deny the truth of Christianity, Ian. Have you ever read the actual details of Nana Sahib's treacherous deceits, and what the relieving troops actually found in the well at Cawnpore, for instance?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket again
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 06:25 AM

Funnily enough, I have read quite a lot on the subject. It fascinated me ever since my first visit to India and how British with a capital E for Empire certain aspects remain, culturally speaking.

I have seen, touched even, a cannon that was used for a group of village elders who questioned the building of a church, which needed the demolition of a temple.

That is why I used the example, and the ins and outs of that example in the two posts above detract from my general point.

Which of course, is the intention, isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 06:50 AM

There is a breathtaking amount of hypocrisy in this and other threads on religion
Ant religious body will resort to extreme and vicious behaviour if it feels the necessity and is in the position to do so - ask anybody who lives in a Catholic country.
Yet another row has recently broken out over a child (this time an 11 year old) being refused a termination of pregnancy on religious grounds.
Ireland is still in the throes of a sometimes vicious debate as to whether an abortion is permissible if the life of the mother is threatened and/or the birth is even viable.
The church's record on child abuse speaks for itself, and not just the Catholic Church.
Recently a leading politician in the north has become embroiled in a row over a colleague who attended the funeral of somebody who 'kicked with the wrong foot'.
Seven states in the U.S. prohibit anybody denying the existence of God from holding public office.....
The list is endless.
I have little doubt that these undisputed facts will be defended by cries of "they did it first" or "they all do it" or "they do it more than we do".... and other such facile irrelevancies, but the fact remains, until religion becomes a private choice by consenting individuals, persecution, abuse of power and privilege.... and everything that goes with 'established and State religion' will remain a grim fact of life, whatever the particular brand-name of the product.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 07:30 AM

Denial of abortion & disqualification from public office on faith grounds. Lamentable indeed —

But scarcely in the same category as making apostasy a capital offence, and acting on it as such; which was the instant topic I raised a few posts back. Are there any Christian states in which such a law applies? NOW?; today? - not even in 1858 ~~ assuming the truth of Musket's tale of the village elders blown to pieces at the cannon's mouth for objecting to destruction of their temple to build a church. What its source, please, Ian?

"Remember Cawnpore Well!", cried the troops marching to the relief of Lucknow.

Good advice still.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 08:22 AM

"But scarcely in the same category as making apostasy a capital offence, a"
It's to be "He hit me harder than I hit him" then, is it?
The history of religion is one of bloodshed and persecution and those on top continue to be in the driving seat.
Tell those who died in Northern Ireland through religious inspired conflict, or former Yugoslavia, or anywhere that religious bigotry is given free reign, their deaths don't don't count Mike - surprised at you.
As somebody pointed out earlier on this thread, much of the wailing and gnashing of teeth from certain individuals, particularly the OP, rigs more than a little hollow when placed next to their own Islamopobic brand of persecution.
Churches persecute when they are in a position to do so - whining when your particular brand is on the receiving end..... well, that's life, isn't it.
'All cats look black in the dark' as the man said.
Can't help but notice that yet another "my God's better than yours" thread has just sprung up to inspire ius all; this time of year always was good for fungi.`
Jim Carroll
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 08:49 AM

Kanpur, which is possibly I suppose Cawnpore? The museum I was dragged around, the name of which escapes me, and the actual village which was nearby. I spent a bit of time working around Uttar Pradesh. That particular claim moved me enough to remember what I just put. Which is interesting in itself as I normally am useless at remembering where things were, and in recent years since meeting Mrs Musket who is a walking Encyclopaedia, knowledge of where we go and what we do is better. I fly out to Thailand on Monday for a holiday, but be buggered if I recall the name of the island we are spending the second week on. All I know is we fly from Bangkok to it next Saturday.

I am not aware of any Christian States where apostasy is a capital offence. But there again there are not many Christian States, and very few Islamic ones for that matter.

I am sure there are many places, especially in Dumbfuckistan, where not following Christian lifestyle would be an offence if they got their own way. Already, not just Dumbfuckistan, but the rest of The USA, it is difficult to get far in public office without claiming Jesus put you there.....   Some would like that here in The UK and point to bishops being in The lords as meaning we are a Christian state, which we are not. Our monarch is the leader of one particular cult but there again, she is the patron of those who make Pedigree Chum dog food.

I repeat. Yes, Christians are being persecuted, so are other religions. Pointing out the persecution of one cult rather than say persecution of religions, with Christianity bearing the brunt, is dangerous, divisive and smells of an agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 09:01 AM

So, Jim & Ian, the answer to my question is a "no".

Thank you.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 09:26 AM

"Cult" is best reserved for it's traditional meaning, which is a way of referring to a particular devotion or practice within a religion, for example the cult of a specific saint within Catholicism or Sufi Islam.

When used as a way of referring to a religion it is generally understood as intended to insult. Generally that seems to be the intention. Not to exaggerate, but it's an expression of the same mindset that gives rise to persecution.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 10:03 AM

"Everyone is ignoring the growing danger to Christians in Muslim-majority countries. The European countries don't give a damn about us."

Hmm. What was I hearing about a YouGov poll last week in which only one in five Brits would "feel comfortable having a Muslim neighbour"? Bet that makes the millions of British Muslims feel safe...

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 10:40 AM

Cult is not an insult. Religion is a group term and although they are all the same to me personally, I give them the respect of observing there are different sects within the term religion that see themselves as unique, hence cult is an accurate term of reference.

I repeat yet again. Whilst the Christianity "section? will that do? "of religion does seem to be getting violent oppression and stigmatising acts committed against them in some areas, so are other "sections" of religion. Who would be Shia in Iraq or Sunni in Iran? The Bosnian Muslims who suffered ethnic cleansing by the Christian Serbs, etc etc. Who prayed for them?

Pointing out the issues of one particular section of religion based communities leads to awful division. You know, the worst thing about those who discriminate is those who make excuses for them.

If it weren't for the much publicised effort by UK Christian organisations to push the persecution button because the law doesn't let them discriminate against Gays now, and if they don't get their act together and allow top jobs to be sought on merit, women soon, I could take this thread at face value but whilst religious equality isn't good enough for some, these threads just feed the need for privilege and that will never return.

Thank Clapton.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 10:49 AM

Oh dear.
There are issues in Ireland about abortion.
Thank you for letting us know Jim, but do you ever read thread titles.

I do not understand the hostility and absence of sympathy for a persecuted group just because that group are Christians.

My referring to the fact that Christians seem to be suffering more than their share does not mean I approve of any other, past or present.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 10:58 AM

The Bosnian Muslims who suffered ethnic cleansing by the Christian Serbs, etc etc. Who prayed for them?

UK and other NATO members went in to save them, remember.
It was awhile ago now to remember exactly, but I am sure we would have prayed for them at my church, and all the other churches in the land where the sufferings of fellow humans are always remembered.
Just as the Syrian people have been in our prayers in recent years.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 11:09 AM

"So, Jim & Ian, the answer to my question is a "no"."
No Mike - may answer id "a plague on all their houses"
"Thank you for letting us know Jim, but do you ever read thread titles."
The thread title is "Christian persecution" which apparently doesn't cover "persecution by Christians" - didn't think for a moment it would.
Good to see the old "thread drift" standby is on hand should I ever need it though!
A bit disgusting to reduce the centuries of religious persecution in Ireland that has filled more graves than any of us care to think about during my lifetime alone as "abortion issues" and passed off as "oh dear", but it's what we've come to expect from god-fearing people like yourself.
Say one for me, will you?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 11:36 AM

I think persecution by Christians would be a valid issue Jim.
Let's here of some.
Ireland is run by secular politicians.
Who is being persecuted for their faith in and by whom Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 12:51 PM

Let there be light!

And lo. The agenda was displayed for all to see.

My work is done.

Tatty bye.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 12:53 PM

Ireland has been dominated by religious-inspired Christian in-fighting for many centuries.
Up comparatively recently the politicians from the Republic took their orders from the church - it took the clerical rape of thousands of children to bring that to an end .
The Six Counties were declared a "Protestant State" at Independence yet the blood still flows on a regular basis there.
There is a hangover from these facts which periodically erupt into open violence and claim yet more lives - and that will continue to be the case for the foreseeable future.
I was relieved to receive your PM telling me you were praying for me; I've been told the same by the Jehovah's Witnesses who used to plague my Sunday afternoons.
I'm sure those who were burned at the stake for their non or unwise beliefs were given the same assurances.
With "God (and Keith) on my side" what more could one wish for?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 01:05 PM

Historically "Christians"[sic] seem to have the most fun persecuting other "Christians"[sic], which is still pretty much the case today.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 01:55 PM

Is anyone being persecuted for their faith in Ireland Jim.
If not, you are on the wrong thread again.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 02:58 PM

Jim ~~ "A plague on both their houses" could constitute a very good answer to a vast # of ?s I could think of. But it does not answer the SPECIFIC QUESTION I asked, to which, by omission and evasion if not otherwise, you have answered "NO": viz, to reiterate ~~

While it is common ground [or anyhow no-one has denied it since I stated it all those posts back] that there are Muslim societies and states in which apostasy is a capital offence, can anyone name a state whose majority or official state religion is any form of Christianity. where this applies NOW; TODAY; not in the 16thC or in India in 1858 [if it did, which I beg leave to doubt]???

The failure of Jim, Ian, or anyone else to furnish any contemporary example of such constitutes, in any rational terms a

N O

and any attempt by Jim or anyone else to gloss any such failure to respond as being synonymous with Mercutio's famous dying curse from Romeo&Juliet is, I would submit, mere pissing down the wind...

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 03:55 PM

"Is anyone being persecuted for their faith in Ireland Jim."
People are being killed and maimed on a regular basis for belonging to the wrong faith in Ireland - does that constitute being "persecuted?"
Only last week - that nice Mrs Robinson's (coo-coo-coo-choo) husband Peter, the leader of the present government in Northern Ireland, got himself into hot water for slagging off a college for "selling land to a "republican" = Catholic - so deep does the for religious unification appears to go in that part of the Island.   
"and any attempt by Jim or anyone else to gloss any such failure "
Nobody is glossing over anything Mike - just pointing out that this sort of thing goes with religion - any religion, and given the opportunity, they would persecute again as they have in the past.
I abhor any extremist regime, Christian, Muslim, Jewish... who persecute any group for holding different beliefs - but I find it as disgusting as anything I have heard of late (plenty to choose from) that one is any better than the other because they do it because they can get away with it while others, who have done it in spades in the the not-too-distant past no longer do so because they can't.
Fundamentalist religion is the problem, not any particular brand.
Let's hear if for the Israelis who persecute Muslims..... (sorry, I forgot, you find that too upsetting, so let's not go there), or those who despise Muslims because they don't share our dress sense.
No, no, no - I do not accept as human any regime that will support a death penalty for non-believers, nor do I support a religion who stands aside and allows its clergy to rape and torture children and then facilitate farther rapes by moving them on to the next parish
In addition, I utterly despise anybody who will pass one form of persecution as "lamentable indeed" or pass off rape and physical abuse as "issues in Ireland about abortion".
Damn them/you all for their murderously inhuman behavior, and damn them/you for your inhuman and one-sided hypocrisy - every single one of them/you have played your part in bringing further misery to this 'Vale of Tears'.
I have little doubt that if this continues I/we will be accused of "hating Christians" just as I have regularly been accused of "hating Britain" because I express my disgust at Britain's arms sales to terrorist states.
I was rather intrigued to come across a slogan recently from an American Christian group asking "WHY DO ATHEISTS HATE AMERICA" - brothers under the skin no doubt.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 05:06 PM

One of the greatest problems is that true Bible believing Christians are thrown in the melting pot with all the so called Christian 'Denominations' who do not stick to Biblical practice or teaching! Of all the Christian people in the world, how many think that they should fight for their rights.... wage war on other beliefs... wage war on other countries.... Fly a battle flag for Christianity?...... How many actually believe that the only way to bring peace to the world is prayer and supplication! All so called Christians are tarred with the same brush!.... Maybe we need to look at each individual and how they function/speak/behave before we make judgements.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 05:09 PM

an awful lot of blustering when an answer is lacking to a straight forward question!

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 05:16 PM

I used the word 'gloss' in the sense of 'interpret', Jim, as in 'glossary'; not in the sense of 'glossing over' anything. Sorry this was not clear - my fault. But I think my point holds nonetheless, that actual cap·pun for apostasy occurs nowhere today within the Christian community. I, for instance, am a baptised and confirmed member of the Church of England. [No Jews made any move to execute me when I became so in middle age, for that matter]. But when I declared myself no longer so, and declared explicitly that I had reverted to my default position of atheism, as my trying of an alternative to see if it suited had not done so [as my dear Valerie, a born CofE but atheist like me, put it, it never 'took']. But the vicar didn't call a meeting of the Parochial Church Council to sentence me to be beheaded on the village green. I am not being facetious in pointing out that there are villages in some Muslim countries where that would have been the literal outcome.

But still no-one has come up with an instance of any present-day Christian society where it would be so.

WHICH, I REPEAT, IS THE QUESTION I ASKED, DESPITE SO MUCH EFFORT BY YOU AND OTHERS TO SUPPLY IRRELEVANT ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS WHICH I DIDN'T ASK.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 05:27 PM

Re the bit about Jews in my last post: orthodox Jews go to the other extreme, and hold formal mourning — "sit shiva", as it is called, from the Hebrew word for seven, as such mourning involving symbolic sitting on the ground with sackcloth and ashes, which nowadays means hiring chairs from the synagogue whose legs have been sawn short so that one is sitting lower than anyone else, lasts for seven days — if any of their community apostasises.

In other words, they go on symbolically as if they were dead, but do not actually make them so ~~ unlike certain other demographics in certain places...

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 05:30 PM

... & only the most immediate relatives ~~ spouse, parents, children, siblings (but not in-laws, even) are expected or permitted to sit shiva.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 05:44 PM

I ,of course, take your point, Georgian silver, but in fairness the critics would have some justification in saying the same about any faith position. but that includes the mixture of atheism and idolatry of north korea also, as well as more obvious religions.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 06:17 PM

We live in a world where persecution involving horrible acts of violence and killing against members of religious minorities takes place.

Pulling in examples of discrimination on a vastly lower level and implying they amount to the same thing is disingenuous. It's analogous to the way that white racists will often do the same thing with regard to persecution of black people.

The lower level discrimination is wrong and needs to be challenged, and there are common factors - but it is important to avoid the kind of thinking which I assume underlay the post on this thread by someone who declared that people belonging to a particular religious community, who were living in daily threat of their lives, deserved it, as being Christians.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Elmore
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 06:53 PM

Don't have the patience to peruse this thread, but feel like I've been persecuted by a bunch of crazies who call themselves Christians since Bush 43 was elected. For the love of God, bring back the separation of Church and State.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 10:40 PM

"Irritated by" might be a more appropriate term Elmore, and very irritating they must be. But they aren't blowing up the places you get together with others, or burning down your homes and killing your friends, or throwing you in jail for your beliefs. The word "persecution" should perhaps be reserved for stuff like that.

It's not a bad idea to skim through a bit of a thread first. The same as listening a few moments to how a conversation is going before chipping in.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 10:40 PM

"Irritated by" might be a more appropriate term Elmore, and very irritating they must be. But they aren't blowing up the places you get together with others, or burning down your homes and killing your friends, or throwing you in jail for your beliefs. The word "persecution" should perhaps be reserved for stuff like that.

It's not a bad idea to skim through a bit of a thread first. The same as listening a few moments to how a conversation is going before chipping in.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Elmore
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 12:45 AM

Oh.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Elmore
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 12:47 AM

Oh.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 02:49 AM

Mike, My answer remains the same - I hate all (religions is probably the wrong word - "churches" is more appropriate) which oppress, murder. persecute people in the name of their particular god
As someone whose family has been a direct victim of such persecution through a good part of the twentieth century, I feel I have the right to do so.
However, I have become sickened by the constant efforts of someone who will use thread after thread, subject after subject, as a platform to attack one particular religion while defending the atrocities of other Churches - let me hasten to say, I do not refer to you directly, but you have allowed yourself to become tarred with this particular brush
Of course I am appalled by any religious killing and detest those churchmen who carry out such barbaric practices, but to see those practices used to malign ALL followers of that or any religion and add our persecution and hostility to the problems of those who have chosen to make a life away from these evils, equally appalls me.      
I know first hand the malign effect that a powerful and influential religion can have on individual families, communities and entire nations, but to make all believers of those faiths the target of constant abuse, branding them as cultural perverts, suspected killers and a general threat to 'our way of life' is as evil as anything dreamed up by the mad mullahs, extremist Zionists or fundamentalist Christians who pollute our world today and make it the minefield it has become.
Georgiansilver summed up my feelings about Christianity and I would apply his/her summary to all religions, not just one.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 05:04 AM

I reject the accusations you make against me.
Persecution of minority faiths is an issue in our world today.
It may or may not be true that one faith is suffering significantly more than others, but there is a debate going on and it is fair to report it.

It saddens me that many who normally support the rights of minorities, you Jim, Richard, Greg, Musket, turn off your goodwill when one faith is mentioned.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 05:26 AM

Mike, My answer remains the same - I hate all (religions is probably the wrong word - "churches" is more appropriate) which oppress, murder. persecute people in the name of their particular god
.,,.
But it is not an 'answer', Jim - the same or not the same - to the question that I asked, for crying out bloody loud. I didn't ask who you hate. I don't give a flying one who you hate. Hate away till you're blue in the bleeding face and very funny you'll look. But all this has Sweet Miss Adams to do with identifying any Christian state or society in which apostasy is a judicial capital offence, as it is undisputedly [or anyhow you haven't disputed it & neither have any of the rest of you] in several Muslim-governed entities; which was the question I asked and to which you have furnished no 'answer', direct or implied, whatsoever.

All you have said makes perfectly good sense, and I would agree with much of it. But it bears no relevance to a VERY SPECIFIC question I asked; so why oh why do you persist in telling me it is an answer to it? As I said above: it's a good answer to many questions that might have been asked, but not, as you keep insisting, to the one that was. If I said what are 9x7 and you said 42, that would have been a fine answer - if only I had asked what are 7x6; but as an answer to what I actually did ask it would be worse than useless, wouldn't it? Can you really not see that point?

So put up or shut up --- please! You are boring me intolerably with your pertinacious point-missing. Not that that's anything new, is it?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 05:50 AM

"I reject the accusations you make against me."
Your rabid hatred of all things Muslim coupled with your proprietorialy taking over of any thread you can use as a vehicle for that hatred and your 'last man standing' approach has achieved nothing other than polarising all these discussion into 'for or against' and driving them into the ground.
Your input is far too irrational and inept to have any effect on the subjects outside this forum, but is certainly is doing an enormous amount of damage within it.
You are killing off any chance of a reasonable chance of a reasonable and rational exchange of ideas and knowledge.
Sorry I bore you Mike; I hope it's not half as much as you disappoint me.
Your 'Do you still beat your wife, yes or no' style of questioning really doesn't hack it for me I'm afraid.
I repeat, nobody is supporting any sort of religious extremism, but it cannot be divorced from any other form of religious extremism in discussions like these without leaving the door open for it to be used by fanatics like Keith.
I abhor Islamic fundamentalism, but I believe it has as little to do with general Muslim belief and practice as has the rantings to be found in Leviticus and Revelations to general Christian belief and practice.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 06:28 AM

Mike:
As direct a reply to your meaningless question as I can manage:
No - there aren't such states, but there have been in the past and given the right circumstances and the 'right' people at the helm, there could quite easily be in the future.
With Islam, we are dealing with Reigeo-feudalistic societies who are hopefully moving away from that position and (hopefully) taking on the best the rest of the world has to offer.
The only way this will happen fully is to encourage them and not saddle them with their history - this applies particularly to those who have taken the great leap of emigration.
Our own 'civilised' smugness needs to be balanced by the facts that the last witchcraft trial in Britain took place in 1941 (and Helen Duncan has yet to be pardoned), and the last Magdalene Laundry closed in Ireland as long ago as 1996.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 06:33 AM

Not forgetting of courese that there are still nutters wandering the world who are attempting to exorcise the evil out of people like me by "praying for us".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: bobad
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 08:04 AM

How's the view beneath the sand Jimbo?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 09:44 AM

Your rabid hatred of all things Muslim

That is a nasty and baseless little slander Jim.
I have never had a bad word for any faith.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 09:57 AM

Hardly baseless and certainly not little - ask the failies living in fear of having their windows smashed in by racist thugs inspired by outpourings such as your own - it seems you don't appear to read your own contributions along with everyone else's.
Your reputation goes before you.
"How's the view beneath the sand Jimbo?"
Not bad Bimbo - the air's certainly fresher than in your company
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 10:04 AM

Just slander Jim.
I really have never had a bad word for any faith.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 10:57 AM

"Irritated by" might be a more appropriate term Elmore."

Tell that to the husband of a woman who died because "Christians"[sic] prevented her from having an abortion, Kevin.,

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 11:58 AM

Oh, and Kevin:


persecute, transitive verb \pər-si-kyüt\
: to treat (someone) cruelly or unfairly especially because of race or religious or political beliefs
: to constantly annoy or bother (someone)

persecution, Noun
:hostility and ill-treatment, especially because of race or political or religious beliefs
:persistent annoyance or harassment

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 02:05 PM

Christians are not in control of medical services Greg.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 02:18 PM

"Christians are not in control of medical services Greg."
The woman in question was told that her unviable and dangerous pregnancy could not be terminated because "Ireland was a Christian country".
The long and bitter battle that the government has been forced to fight in order to bring Ireland somewhere near where Britain was at the end of the 1950s has been opposed by the church and fundamentalist Christians, part of the time with politicians being threatened with excommunication - your knowledge of the influence of the church in 'Christian' countries appears to hover sometime near the end of the 1950s as well!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 03:13 PM

First Jim, not all Christians oppose abortion.
Me for one.
Second, whatever they claim to have been told, no church has any say in what procedures are carried out in British, and I am sure, Irish hospitals.
Third, other religions, e.g. Islam, are anti-abortion, so why single out Christianity for your attack?

Finally, this thread is about religious persecution so please start your own threads instead of hijacking this one.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 04:22 PM

Not only in Ireland, Jim. "Christians"[sic] in the U.S. of A. are spearheading the drive to abolish abortions AND birth control & have succeeded in making both virtually impossible to obtain in any number of states.

Christians are not in control of medical services Greg.

Bullshit. Open your eyes; I seem to remember something about motes & beams.....

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 05:11 PM

Greg, not all Christians are anti abortion.
Other religions are anti abortion.
Churches do not control hospitals.
This thread is about the evil of persecuting people for their faith.

Please respect the important issue addressed by this thread, and start one on abortion if you must.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 05:54 PM

Churches do not control hospitals.

Apparently you've never heard of Catholic hospitals? Or hospitals run by other "Christian"[sic] denominations? Get a clue, Keith & stop the bullshit.

I suppose you also deny that "Christians" are at the forefront of persecuting gay, lesbian, and trans-gender folks?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 06:07 PM

This thread is about the evil of persecuting people for their faith.


No, Keith, its about the evil of persecuting people for their beliefs - which includes those who subscribe to no religion whatsoever.

These last are regularly persecuted by "Christians"[sic] such as yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket with straight bat
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 06:34 PM

I do not know about other countries, but in England, where many of the contributors to this thread reside, religious organisations can fund and manage hospitals but cannot control them on religious grounds.

The Health and Social Care Act 2008 requires registration of what are hospitals by definition of overnight care of health needs, curative or palliative. Non overnight care can also come under hospital care, but the categories can be complicated as to day case and clinic based invasive care. They are then inspected and regulated by The Care Quality Commission where the regulations for equality of access, consent, patient control of care and myriad other regulations are monitored and enforced. Registration is required by both NHS and non NHS bodies. Other bodies, including religious bodies were previously registered under The Care Standards Act 2000. In short, it is 13 years since healthcare on religious grounds has been legally acceptable here.

I can say from what I suppose is a professional view, having been a regulator and now a director of a hospital trust, that it would be extremely difficult to have policies and procedures affecting patient care that either discriminated on religious grounds or didn't reflect upon publicised best practice by bodies such as NICE or The Academy of Royal Colleges. Similar structures exist in other parts of The UK.

I have inspected and held to account religious bodies providing both health and social care, and in my own experience, religion has provided the funding rather than the vision. I speak regularly with our multi faith chaplaincy team about their wish to provide more holistic care to those without religious faith, and to be honest, if our local experience was translated generally, I could see a far more relevant future for those who use faith as their guide in helping society at large.

Some of the people professing faith on this thread show themselves to be incapable of raising their vision to such a level. Hence my dismissal of them as blustering irrelevance.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 08:16 PM

Well, Musket, in the old U S of A, no such prohibition exists against religious organisations controlling hospitals. For one example of many Catholic hospitals routinely - on the basis if religious docterine- will allow a mother to die rather than aborting a foetus in a life threatening pregnancy.

Now, there's real; "Christians"[sic] in action.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 08:17 PM

"First Jim, not all Christians oppose abortion."
This is not about "all Christians" it is about a church who totally opposes abortion/termination in any shape or form, who opposes contraception in any shape or form other than abstention and insists on controlling sex education (what there is of it) should be carried out by a clergy made up (supposedly) of celibates.
Sexual promiscuity was met with extreme punishment ranging from shaming - banishment beatings, ostracising..... to being confined into the slavery of the Magdalene Laundries which administered beatings, sexual abuse, harassment, constant humiliation and forced labour - the last Laundry closed in 1996.
Who gives a toss what you think (do you think?) - this is the most powerful Christian Church on this planet
"no church has any say in what procedures are carried out in British, and I am sure, Irish hospitals."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ireland/9679840/Pregnant-woman-dies-in-Ireland-after-being-denied-an-abortion.h

Ireland's laws governing sexual practices and all other moral issues were passed only with the blessing of the church, just as those in the North were dominated by the Church there - a throwback to the Scots Presbyterian churches there.
Would you like a peep at what happened throughout Wales?
You have been given the story elsewhere of the 10 year old Bolivian child who was raped by a farmer, became pregnant and contacted 2 sexually transmitted diseases. These facts were hidden by the Nuns who ran the hospital until it was too late for a legal termination to be performed, despite the fact that her age and condition guaranteed that attempting to give birth would certainly kill her.
When the parents applied for a dispensation from the church, they were told that "she should embrace her martyrdom".
Tell me about Christianity - I seem to have missed something.
"This thread is about the evil of persecuting people for their faith."
Thread drift again
The title of this thread is " Christian Persecution" and it can equally be applied to persecution by Christians
How dare you attempt to steer this thread into your comfort zone - we can discuss any aspect of this term we wish to DO NOT ARTTEMPT TO CENCOR THIS DISCUSSION - YOU HAVE NO AUTHORITY ON THIS FORUM AND YOU HAVE LOST ANY RESPECT THAT YOU MIGHT ONCE HAVE HAD.
"Third, other religions, e.g. Islam, are anti-abortion, so why single out Christianity for your attack?"
The title of this forum indicates it to be about Christians ISN'T THAT WHAT YOU HAVE JUST SAID - we all run the risk of being accused BY YOU of being accused of "THREAD DRIFT" if we try to bring Islam into the equation.
What planet are you living on?
"England, where many of the contributors to this thread reside, religious organisations can fund and manage hospitals but cannot control them on religious grounds"
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1570344/Catholic-hospital-bans-abortion-referrals.html

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Elmore
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 10:02 PM

Christian Persecution. When my wife began classes to join my church, they told her she couldn't vote for a pro choice candidate. Sounds like persecution to me. She looked into another religion; atheism

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 10:59 PM

"This thread is about the evil of persecuting people for their faith."

Yes, you wouldn't think that would be too controversial. But I suppose if there was a thread about apple pies it'd likely turn into a heated series of exchanges about how they represent a range of evil characteristics of society, and seek to marginalise those who prefer bananas or muesli...

The word faith is hardly the exclusive property of religion. It's pretty common to speak of faith in the future, or faith in democracy, or in someone's word.

But in any case persecution of people belonging to any kind of minority typically has nothing to do with what they believe, but rather with how they are perceived. That applies whether the persecution is tied up with the religious affiliation of the victims, the colour of their skin or their sexual identity.

And in no case do they "deserve it".

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 01:46 AM

The attitude here (at least from one one individual) seems to be, "why can't we just be allowed to go on persecuting the Muslims - Christian persecution doesn't count")
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 02:51 AM


No, Keith, its about the evil of persecuting people for their beliefs - which includes those who subscribe to no religion whatsoever.

These last are regularly persecuted by "Christians"[sic] such as yourself.

I accept that inclusion Greg.
I do not accept that Christians are persecuting atheists.

Freedom of belief (and of non-belief) is a basic human right.
All of you shouting down debate on this denial of rights usually defend human rights.
Why not this one?

This is not the place to debate abortion or discrimination against GLBT.
FWIW my views on those issues coincide with yours.
Start a thread and I will support it.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 03:03 AM

Jim.
The attitude here (at least from one one individual) seems to be, "why can't we just be allowed to go on persecuting the Muslims - Christian persecution doesn't count")

I do not know what you have been reading, but it is not this thread.
You have reverted to making shit up.
Again.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 03:45 AM

"You have reverted to making shit up."
Then why do you keep squealing "thread drift" whenever you have been given something you can't handle.
"other religions, e.g. Islam, are anti-abortion, so why single out Christianity for your attack?"
"Finally, this thread is about religious persecution so please start your own threads instead of hijacking this one."
TWO CONSECUTIVE STATEMENTS ON ONE POSTING
If this forum is to continue being a place where we can all speak our minds freely you have to be stopped from constantly attempting to steer it into your own comfort zone.
"This thread is not about....", and "why don't you talk about persecutions by other religions" (am I alone in seeing a totally contradictory nonsense in putting these two statements into one posting, as you have just done?) has now become a regular attempt to censor these threads
You refuse to atop your constant attempts at censorhip - in future I will just respond with CENSORSHIP ALERT, and continue, and if that doesn't stop you, I will trawl this forum and publicly announce the hundreds of times you have attempted to use it.
YOU HAVE NO AUTHORITY WHATEVER TO TO STAGE_MANAGE THESE DISCUSSIONS TO SUIT YOUR IGNORANCE AND BIGOTRY - STOP NOW
If you are unable to see why refusing to terminate a life threatening and unviable pregnancy on religious grounds is not an extreme form of Christian or any persecution, you really should not be here interfering with those of us who do.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 04:00 AM

"but it is not this thread."
Incidentally - the word MUSLIM has appeared forty times in your postings on this thread.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 04:02 AM

You are shouting down discussion of religious persecution, the subject of the thread, and demanding we discuss abortion instead.
That is the real censorship going on here Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 04:14 AM

Incidentally - the word MUSLIM has appeared forty times in your postings on this thread.
39 times by me out of 139 mentions altogether, and I have the most posts.
Mine were mostly in response to others.
What is your point?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 05:14 AM

"demanding we discuss abortion instead."
Depriving awoman of a pregnancy termination needed on medical grounds for religious reasons is an extreme form of (by) Christion persecution
Attempting to prevent discussion of this on a thread on Christian persecution is an extreme form of censorship i.e. persecution.
CENSORSHIP ALERT - WATCH OUT - BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING YOU
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 05:19 AM

Christians do not control what treatments or procedures are given in hospitals.Abortiont is an issue worthy of discussion, but this thread is about something else.

You are shouting down discussion of religious persecution, the subject of the thread, and demanding we discuss abortion instead.
That is the real censorship going on here Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 05:19 AM

Incidentally
My point is that you are attempting to have us just discuss persecution against Christians - (YOURS IS THE LARGEST NUMBER OF MENTIONS BY FAR OF THE WORD MUSLIM BY ANY ONE INDIVIDUAL) while attempting to prevent us discussing persecution BY Christians - making my point perfectly, that you are once again attempting to make this yet another of your Islamophobic Muslim-bashing platforms.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 05:45 AM

So, in Carrollesean, any mention of the word 'Muslim' leads instantly to the conclusion that the mere iteration of the term infallibly indicates a full agenda of "Islamophobic Muslim-bashing"? And who, pray, is drawing all these racist pictures?

Oh, I do always enjoy the Keith&Carroll show, watching the increasingly convoluted knots of irrelevance & irrationality one of the participants ties himself into, to the (☺·almost·☺) unfailingly cool & controlled & courteous responses of the other.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 05:47 AM

you are attempting to have us just discuss persecution against Christians

Not true Jim.
The contention is that Christians are the most persecuted, but that can be, and has been, challenged.
Any discussion of the denial of freedom of belief is entirely appropriate.

Abortion is an entirely separate issue.
I hope you get a discussion going, but on a new thread please.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 07:28 AM

"So, in Carrollesean, any mention of the word 'Muslim' leads instantly to the conclusion that the mere iteration of the term infallibly indicates a full agenda of "Islamophobic Muslim-bashing"? "
Ansd along comed the tail for the dog to wag
No Mike - any attempt to confine discussion headed "Christian Persecution" only to persecution of Christians by other groups, particularly Muslims (39 mentions by Keith so far) is a form of extreme censorship and a continuation of his (ad sadly your) Islamophobic crusade.
Feel free to join in and bless us all with your superior wisdom, and try not to scurry off next time.
Are you really saying you approve of this sort of shit?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 07:46 AM

Not true Jim.
The contention is that Christians are the most persecuted, but that can be, and has been, challenged.
Any discussion of the denial of freedom of belief is entirely appropriate.

Abortion is an entirely separate issue.
I hope you get a discussion going, but on a new thread please.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 08:26 AM

Washington Times, August 2, 2013 — Vladimir Putin said last week that he observes "with alarm" that "in many of the world's regions, especially in the Middle East and in North Africa, inter-confessional tensions are mounting, and the rights of religious minorities are infringed, including Christians and Orthodox Christians."
The Russian president made his comments at a meeting with Orthodox Christian leaders in Moscow. He urged the international community to take steps towards preserving the rights of Christian people worldwide and preventing the violence that they suffer routinely in dozens of nations around the globe.
http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/high-tide-and-turn/2013/aug/2/putin-world-leaders-should-unite-end-anti-chri


Read more: http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/high-tide-and-turn/2013/aug/2/putin-world-leaders-should-unite-end-anti-christia/#ixzz2gNV4iTiU
Follow us: @wtcommunities on Twitter

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: bobad
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 08:51 AM

As counterintuitive as it may seem for Westerners long accustomed to thinking of Christians as oppressors, not the oppressed, empirical confirmation of the point is depressingly easy to find.

The Pew Forum estimates that Christians face persecution in a staggering total of 133 countries, representing two-thirds of all nations on earth.

The Germany-based International Society for Human Rights, a secular organization, estimates that 80 percent of all acts of religious discrimination in the world are directed against Christians.

Some 150,000 Christians are killed for their faith each year, according to both the Catholic relief agency Aid to the Church in Need and the evangelical group Open Doors.


BTW, as an atheist I have no dog in this race.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 09:14 AM

"The contention is that Christians are the most persecuted, but that can be, and has been, challenged."
The facts are that any religion, given the opportunity, will persecute non-believers, and their behaviour in Ireland prove that Christianity is no different.
It is shameful that to you attempt to suppress that fact and it is purely protecting your own product that you attempt to stop discussion on their persecution, just as you attempted to suppress information on British arms sales.
You cannot be allowed to go on attempting to censor these discussions as part of your extremist nationalism - you are no mean persecutor yourself - censorship is persecution - don't do it again
It doesn't really matter to this argument that Christians are being persecuted MORE than other groups - you have spent a great deal of time on this forum persecuting Muslims, harassment of the type you go in for makes the lives of those fleeing exactly the same type of persecution miserable and dangerous in Britain - you really have no room to criticise anybody
I don't expect an honest response to this, not from you or your poodle - who appears to have slunk off again.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 09:39 AM

The facts are that any religion, given the opportunity, will persecute non-believers, and their behaviour in Ireland prove that Christianity is no different.
It is shameful that to you attempt to suppress that fact

Is it a fact that non-believers are persecuted by Christians in Ireland Jim?
It is shameful if true, and relevant to this thread.
What do the bastards do to you Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 09:40 AM

"Censorship is persecution" sez Mr Jim Confused-of-this-Parish. So he disapproves the provisions of the Race Relations Acts, I take it, which constitute, since the demise of the Lord Chamberlain's department, about the only actual instance of legal censorship remaining on our statute books?

He doesn't seem to know the difference between rational criticism [such as objecting to the perils undergone by Christians in many Islamic societies - see post from bobad a few back - or preferring that our soldiers be not hacked to death on our public streets by those with a self-declared Islamist agenda], and 'persecution' of an entire demographic.

Trouble is, he is a right Humpty Dumpty when it comes to persecution, which he overdefines to the point where the term loses all meaning.

But I expect he will feel I am persecuting him by saying so. Ooohhh dear!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 10:48 AM

"Is it a fact that non-believers are persecuted by Christians in Ireland Jim?"
They certainly have been in the past and they would be again if the Christian Church hadn't shat in its own nest by allowing their clergy to help themselves to our children - not just in Ireland of course, and certainly not just Catholics.
"What do the bastards do to you Jim?W
More to the point - what have they done to you.
Bastards - a term of abuse aimed at children born out of wedlock - the church doesn't approve of them either and so, apparently, neither do you.
Religions are prospective terrorists by their very nature and the mindset that places them above the rest of us never really goes away, it just lies dormant until the next time.
Still "he hit me harder sir" Mike - a bit pathetic, even for you.
You have about the same level of imagination as your friend.
Jim Carroll

"NOT SORRY AND WILL DO IT AGAIN
Even in the 20th century, Catholic authorities have tried to present the Inquisition in an undeservedly flattering light. Cardinal Lépicier, expressly supported by Pope Pius X, (Pope from 1903-14) declared the church's reign of terror was right, just because the church did it:
"The naked fact that the Church, of her own authority, has tried heretics and condemned them to be delivered to death, shows that she truly has the right of killing ... [W]ho dares to say that the Church has erred in a matter so grave as this?"
In fact, many have dared to say so.
Charles Leland wrote, "When people believe, or make believe, in a thing so very much as to torture like devils and put to death hundreds of thousands of fellow-beings, mostly helpless and poor old women, not to mention many children, it becomes a matter of very serious import to all humanity to determine once for all whether the system or code according to which this was done was absolutely right for ever, or not." Anthropologist Jules Henry said, "Organized religion, which likes to fancy itself the mother of compassion, long ago lost its right to that claim by its organized support of organized cruelty." G.G. Coulton said of the Inquisition, "History affords few plainer examples of the demoralizing effects of absolute power upon fairly ordinary men."
http://freetruth.50webs.org/A2d.htm

and

http://darylilbury.wordpress.com/2011/11/19/anti-abortion-activism-the-hidden-terrorism/

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 11:00 AM

Not for the first time, Jim, I have not the remotest idea what your last comment addressed to me means. I genuinely can make nor heads nor tails of it. It is entirely opaque to me. Were it written in Martian it would make much more sense...

But pleased don't trouble to explain. I am sure it would turn out to be of not the least interest to me whatsoever.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 11:25 AM

Jim, asked to give details of non-believers being persecuted by Christians in Ireland, you tell us about the Spanish Inquisition!
No-one was expecting that.

I have complained before about you relying on out of date, discredited evidence, but I think you are now taking the piss.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 11:44 AM

"m, asked to give details of non-believers being persecuted by Christians in Ireland, you tell us about the Spanish Inquisition!"
I did not tell you about the Spanish Inquisition - I poo#inted out that the people in charge to day still support in the name of Christianity all those centuries ago and would do it again should the circumstances and opportunity arise - my point all along.
Nothing here is "either out of date" or "discredited"
You don't think refusing 11 year old rape victims and women with life threatening and unviable pregnancies on religious grounds worthy of being described as "religious persecution"
You have no right to expect sympathy for Christians being persecuted if you sneer at you own brand of persecution.
If it's permissible for your lot - why should anybody give a toss when you get it done to you.
As I said - damn you all and may you all roast in your own self-created hell.
Stick your pisoges up you hole, every last one of you and stop making our world a superstition-ridden minefield.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 12:17 PM

certainly looks like this thread has been over-run by a certain someone.
maybe disagreement equates to persecution in some minds.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 02:09 PM

What would you think of a thread about persecution of Muslims in certain countries which was derailed by a constant series of posts about Islam being repressive towards women and gay people, and hostile to all kinds of things? And how addressing persecution of Muslims was a way of diverting attention from persecution of Christians and others, especially by Muslims?

Any significant difference from this thread, when you come down to it?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 02:59 PM

"Any significant difference from this thread, when you come down to it?"
It's what we constantly get including here - nobody is defending the inarguable abuses carried out by Muslims in the name of Islam - why should we accept inarguable abuses by Christians in the name of Christianity?
This is a thread about religious persecution - to separate this persecution from all other religious persecution is wrong.
It is not exclusive to any one religion, but it goes with the territory - religious bodies persecute non and contrary believers, the criticism of one and defence of the other is hypocritical.
This is a territory war between international organisations, not an attack on either Christians or Muslims (or it shouldn't be).
Religion - any religion and politics (any politics) is a toxic mix and ignoring that fact is to perpetuate the situation
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 04:02 PM

So you would see it as perfectly appropriate for what I described in my post to happen? A thread specifically about persecution on minority Muslim communities to be used as an occasion for hostile posts about a range of issues about Islamic society and religion?

Imagine in such a thread, arising from some appalling massacre of Muslims, finding the following posts from this present thread with the word "Christian" replaced by "Muslim":

I've had just about had it with the whining about persecution from so-called "Christians".

Personally, I think that most "Christians"[sic] richly deserve any persecution they may get.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 05:39 PM

a thread about persecution of Muslims in certain countries which was derailed by a constant series of posts about Islam being repressive towards women and gay people, and hostile to all kinds of things

We've already had exactly that thread and situation several times, Kevin.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 05:41 PM

"It is not exclusive to any one religion, but it goes with the territory - religious bodies persecute non and contrary believers"
.,,.
Accepted! But seriously, Jim; NOT all to the same degree. This was the point of my asking whether anyone could name a Xtn government who executed apostates today. You hummed & hawed & turned yourself inside out & tied yourself in knots to name other objectionable things they do, before ceding me a grudging, hedged about with 'but previously & maybe some time in the future', negative.

So do think of the qualitative difference, please, I beg you, between denying a girl an abortion on religious grounds, which all except those perpetrating it will regard as appalling, and sentencing someone to be publicly beheaded for leaving Islam & embracing Xtnty & actually carrying out the sentence when they refuse to recant.

Here is a recent, well documented & authenticated instance: I found this, including video, just with a brief google ~~

Man Beheaded by Tunisian Muslims for Converting to Christianity
Posted on June 6, 2012

http://www.bestgore.com/beheading/man-beheading-tunisia-muslim-convert-christian/

We are all sorry for the girls who couldn't get abortions in Ireland; particularly the one told to 'embrace her martyrdom'. Sickening indeed. But do you really regard such abuses as deserving absolutely equal condemnation & obloquy, Jim? Completely objective relativism can be counterproductive in conveying one's point convincingly, you know.

~M~


























Man Beheaded by Tunisian Muslims for Converting to Christianity
Posted on June 6, 2012 by Vincit

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 05:55 PM

We've already had exactly that thread and situation several times, Kevin.

And a pretty unsavoury situation it is too, at times. Those quotes ( as adjusted to change the name of the religion ) would I am sure fit very well on a website of the English Defence League.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 06:18 PM

I have never supported any single religion in my life, not have I ever supported atrocities committed in the name of any religion
I believe the definitive nature of all religions to be the problem, not the particular philosophies or values espoused by the followers of any particular group - which usually don't count for very much anyway.
The persecution of any group is wrong per se, doesn't matter mtter if the culprits are Muslims, Christians, Zionists...... wrong.
Numbers don't matter very much either..... any group who will persecute for their beliefes are just as likely to kill a thousand as kill ten people if they believe their cause is just.
Islam and Christian fanatics are basically no different - the difference lies only in the opportunity offered to persecute.
What is wrong is to point to another group and say "they're worse than us because they killed more" - that has happened over and over again on this forum.
Or;
"What they do is bad, what we do is excusable" or to deny it altogether, which is exactly what what is happening here.
The argument being put here is that "it's wrong to kill and persecute Christians" which it is, on the other hand, "It's not important that a pregnant woman is allowed to die, or at least two 11 year old rape victims faced certain death" because treating them goes against the beliefs of some particular bunch of religious nutters.
All these case us debase us as human beings, and all of them open the door to further and escalating abuses and atrocities.
There is no black and white in any of this - all religious persecution is equally evil, as are those who support one side or the other.
A plague on all of them, all black cats are still black, in darkness or in sunlight.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Elmore
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 07:04 PM

Priest told us if we didn't raise our children in the Catholic Church our marriage the would be invalid. Is that Christian persecution? Is Catholicism Christianity? The Baptists around here don't think so.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: bobad
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 08:53 PM

"He doesn't seem to know the difference between rational criticism [such as objecting to the perils undergone by Christians in many Islamic societies - see post from bobad a few back"

It seems that some of our more strident posters would prefer to remain unencumbered with facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 12:46 AM

Jim ~~ Zionism not a religion, in any sense whatever; even if most of its adherents belong to one particular faith, there are plenty within that faith who do not adhere: and it is a tendentious muddying of the waters to call it so. Might as well call KKK 'a religion'. You know this perfectly well, and I suspect are being deliberately provocative. Why? You have enough quite good arguments without going in for all this relativism and truculent come-on-ery. Can't you see how the whole tenor of the thread is becoming increasingly and pretty well ubiquitously hostile to you? All v well being the lone voice crying in the wilderness; but not much use when the whole of the rest of the world has just stopped listening.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 03:01 AM

"Zionism not a religion, in any sense whatever"
I'm aware of that Mike - but it has become a political pressure group claiming to represent the Jewish people
"Can't you see how the whole tenor of the thread is becoming increasingly and pretty well ubiquitously hostile to you"
Not really - it has become obvious that our in-fighting has once again had the usual effect of driving other posters away.
Even if I were in the minority, it has never put Keith, or to a lesser extent you off from taking the stances that you have because nobody backed your arguments.
Argue the facts, stop counting heads - this includes the fact that people are persecuted and killed by religious persecution of all shapes and sizes, not that some are less important than others because there aren't as many of them effected.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 03:22 AM

I don't believe it has ever made any such claim of exclusive representation, Jim; and will permit myself to observe, with all modesty, that this is a topic on which, for obvious reasons, I may claim to be better informed than you.

I am entirely unaware that any infighting on our parts is going on to the exclusion of others ~~ tho every now & again, to be sure, the Keith'n'Carroll Show gets into swing, with admitted occasional interpolations on my part, which you are pleased to characterise, with oh such consummate wit[!], variously as ☤-Godmotherhood or Poodlefakery!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 03:28 AM

Jim, non-Muslims living or working in Saudi are expected to live by the Sharia like everyone else.
That is not persecution.

Someone denied an abortion in Ireland is being treated the same as everyone else.
It is not persecution.
Furthermore, your laws are not imposed by any church, but by elected politicians in a secular, democratic parliament.
There is no persecution of non-Christians by Christians in Ireland.
Your claim does not stand.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 04:28 AM

Keith - laws forced on people influence all and are no less oppressive laws because of that fact - they are still persecution.
The laws of pregnancy termination here are equivalent to those in Britain in the last century; they remain in place largely due to the influence of the church - there is no secret of where the influence keeping them in place comes from.
Go and ask the families of the young women whose daughters still flee to Britain in their thousands for a pregnancy termination whether they consider themselves persecuted by ancient laws; go and ask the husband of Savita Halappanavar how fairly he feels his wife was dealt with by Irish law....
In Britain we have laws which deal fairly with pregnancy; if they do change here it will be despite the dedicated opposition of the Church
Specific discrimination against non believers was a reality well into my lifetime and is quite likely to return again should the church ever get over the results of its own particular brand of (child) persecution and return to its former position - my point all along
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 04:30 AM


Keith - laws forced on people influence all and are no less oppressive laws because of that fact - they are still persecution.

Then you have a different definition.
That is not the persecution referred to in the title.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 04:47 AM

Quite, Keith. You really are being a bit of a HumptyDumpty when it comes to defining 'persecution', Jim; and failing to admit that, even if one accepts all or any of your take on the word, there are still degrees of severity within the category.

You really must sort out this confusion of yours: or you shall not go to the Ball to meet Prince Charmin; and the Poodle might bite you on the bum!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 05:37 AM

"Then you have a different definition."
We have indeed - mine includes to oppress, worry or harass - political or religious persecution is given as only an example, not a definitive condition - what's yours?
"there are still degrees of severity within the category"
Not witin the definition there aren't (you pair raised it) - persecution is persecution.
There is also the fact that persecution remains an option to religious groups and is only checked by prevailing circumstances, the statement by the churchman on the Inquisitions makes it quite clear that in his opinion the church never did anything wrong and, if allowed to, would continue that policy were it left off it were only allowed to do so.
Grounds enough for disbarring any church from having a say in the running of any country as far as far as I'm concerned.
However Mike - I'll do my best to sort myself out - thanks for the heads up again
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 05:52 AM

what's yours?

The word in the title refers to kidnap, forced conversion, rape, extreme violence, murder, imprisonment and the destruction of churches and homes.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 06:12 AM

"there are still degrees of severity within the category"
Not witin the definition there aren't (you pair raised it) - persecution is persecution.~~~
.,,.

Oh come on, Jim; all categories have their degrees:-

Punishment is punishment. But staying in for half an hour to write out 'I must be good' 50 times is not the same as 500 lashes of the cat or 20 years banged up in Parkhurst, is it?

So neither is making people go abroad if they want to buy a condom the same as beheading them slowly with a blunt knife* for converting to another religion.

Try not to be a silly boy: it would be such a shame to miss the lovely Ball.

~M~

*I didn't watch the video ~~ just reading the description was enough for me. & I didn't care for the site it was on either; a sort of porn-site. But that doesn't mean that the account wasn't accurate or authentic; seemed indeed to appear on several different sites in the same google index.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 07:31 AM

"Oh come on, Jim; all categories have their degrees:- "
Six million Jews perished at the hands of the Nazis,
Only half a million Gypsies suffered the same fate
Less considered undesirable because of mental or physical deficiencies went to the gas chambers
Less again died for being Trades Unionists, Communists or other types of opponents of the state
A mere one in ten of the male population of Lidice were lined up and shot following Heidrick's assassination
And many thousand more unconnected individuals were picked out and murdered at the whim of those in charge.
None of them measured up to the six million in numbers
At what point does persecution cease to become persecution on your particular sliding scale, and when of these become unimportant to be dismissed as you have both dismissed the termination laws reached because of religious pressure – do tell?
Notwithstanding, I will really try harder to improve my outlook on life Mike – I'm sure you have my best interests at heart.
"The word in the title refers to kidnap, forced conversion, rape, extreme violence, murder, imprisonment and the destruction of churches and homes."
All threads are subject to interpretation with a limit by whoever chooses to participate in them and to attempt to interfere with that basic democratic right is censorship
As I said earlier
BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING YOU
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 08:33 AM

Nina Shea, an international human-rights lawyer and expert on religious persecution, testified in 2011 before Congress regarding the fate of Iraqi Christians, two-thirds of whom have vanished from the country. They have either been murdered or fled in fear for their lives. Said Shea: "[I]n August 2004 … five churches were bombed in Baghdad and Mosul. On a single day in July 2009, seven churches were bombed in Baghdad … The archbishop of Mosul, was kidnapped and killed in early 2008. A bus convoy of Christian students were violently assaulted. Christians … have been raped, tortured, kidnapped, beheaded, and evicted from their homes …"

Lela Gilbert is the author of Saturday People, Sunday People, which details the expulsion of 850,000 Jews who fled or were forced to leave Muslim countries in the mid-20th century. The title of her book comes from an Islamist slogan, "First the Saturday People, then the Sunday People," which means "first we kill the Jews, then we kill the Christians." Gilbert wrote recently that her Jewish friends and neighbors in Israel "are shocked but not entirely surprised" by the attacks on Christians in the Middle East. "They are rather puzzled, however, by what appears to be a lack of anxiety, action, or advocacy on the part of Western Christians."

In December 2011, Britain's chief rabbi, Lord Jonathan Sacks, addressed Parliament saying, "I have followed the fate of Christians in the Middle East for years, appalled at what is happening, surprised and distressed … that it is not more widely known." "It was Martin Luther King who said, 'In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.' That is why I felt I could not be silent today."

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 09:30 AM

__Mike – I'm sure you have my best interests at heart.~~

Yes I have, Jim. So please don't write any more such relativist nonsense as

Six million Jews perished at the hands of the Nazis,
Only half a million Gypsies suffered the same fate
Less considered undesirable because of mental or physical deficiencies went to the gas chambers
Less again died for being Trades Unionists, Communists or other types of opponents of the state
A mere one in ten of the male population of Lidice were lined up and shot following Heidrick's assassination
And many thousand more unconnected individuals were picked out and murdered at the whim of those in charge.
None of them measured up to the six million in numbers
At what point does persecution cease to become persecution on your particular sliding scale

All those instances you adduce were on the top of the persecution scale, as all involved the deaths of inncocent people guilty of no crime except such as was so regarded in the perverted society they lived in, where one's race/nationality could become a capital crime. And do you honestly not think this a different level or degree of persecution from making abortion or contraception difficult to obtain?

You are coming on: but really must try harder, you know...

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 09:46 AM

inncocent people guilty of no crime except such as was so regarded in the perverted society they lived in

Such as persons seeking an abortion or birth control in the perverted, "Christian"[sic] society that denies them that right?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 10:00 AM

all involved THE DEATHS of inncocent people guilty of no crime except such as was so regarded in the perverted society they lived in

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 10:02 AM

You mean like THE DEATHS of women who cannot obtain certain medical procedures, Keith, and/or of those who have to resort to back-room practitioners?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 10:20 AM

Greg, non-Muslims living or working in Saudi are expected to live by the Sharia like everyone else.
That is not persecution.

Someone denied an abortion in Ireland is being treated the same as everyone else.
It is not persecution.
Furthermore, laws are not imposed by any church, but by elected politicians in a secular, democratic parliament.
That is not persecution of non-Christians by Christians.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 10:53 AM

Say what, Keith? That's even more idiotic than usual. Not only are Saudi Arabia & Sharia irrelevant but we are not discussing solely Ireland & even if we were your argument amounts to the nonsensical assertion that the Nazis did not persecute the Jews because they were all treated the same.

Apparently the deaths of the women concerned are acceptable- and possibly favored?- by "Christains"[sic]such as yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 11:00 AM

"relativist nonsense "
What binds them all together as "persecution" is they were perpetrated by people who gave themselves the right of life and death and had no hesitation in exercising that right.
"All those instances you adduce were on the top of the persecution scale"
Including the many thousand more unconnected individuals were picked out and murdered at the whim of those in charge?
You seem to have reached Keith's level in describing the death of a young woman because of religiously inspired laws which prevented a life-saving operation, (not to mention the two 11 year old rape victims who had to be taken to another country for similar life saving operations) as "making abortion or contraception difficult to obtain"
Even this present Government (not exactly a division of the Red Army have been shamed into changing the law because they are forced to recognise that the present situation kills people - still a long way to go, but at least they've reached the mid-20th century!
I still don't grasp whet constitutes 'persecution' in your book, but I think I'm getting there - anything committed by Muslims, do I have that right.
Pretty much in line back with your claim on the 'Muslim Prejudice' thread that it was permissable for Keith to describe Male Pakistanis as 'implanted cultural perverts' but not OK for anybody to suggest that Jews were usurers.
Getting there, must try harder.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 12:35 PM

Oh, OK then, just go on feeling self-satisfied at the pigsbum rubbish you're spouting, Jim. Congratulate yourself on having put the wicked racist reactionaries in their place. Go on ~~ have a really good gloat at how clever you have proved yourself!

And then just go back a bit and look at some of the comments your posts have been greeted with:

28 Sep 13 - 05:09 PM 29 Sep 13 - 08:04 AM 30 Sep 13 - 12:17 PM 30 Sep 13 - 08:53 PM would do for a start.

They see thru your posturing, & as one of them puts it, blustering. So does Keith. So do I. It's all your usual MO ~~ you give the impression of wanting to argue intelligently till anyone asks you to question one of your fatuous OK shibboleths; then you turn illogical; when this is pointed out, you turn nasty. Got any friends left anywhere, have you?

You really are a pathetic, point-missing, doctrinaire, agenda-driven, self-congratulatorily anti-intellectual little pillock... I've done with even bothering to argue with you; it's all pissing down the wind of your conceited holier-than-thou arrant conceit, and I've got better ways to waste my time, thanks...

Adieu. You must really be feeling good now

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 01:33 PM

Once again I repeat the point I have already made a couple of times. If this were a thread about the persecution suffered by Muslim minorities in some countries, I do not believe that Jim would be happy to see it containing a stream of posts focussing on the failings which can be identified in Islamic countries and Muslim, however justified criticism of such matters might be.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 01:34 PM

"Got any friends left anywhere, have you"
Yup - but I tend to avoid hypocrits
"28 Sep 13 - 05:09 PM 29 Sep 13 - 08:04 AM 30 Sep 13 - 12:17 PM 30 Sep 13 - 08:53 PM would do for a start."
You mean some people actuqally disagree with me - shit - must change my mind before anybody notices
"I've done with even bothering to argue with you"
Don't seea great deal of argument from you nowadays Mike, just hit-and-run snide
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 03:59 PM

Say what, Keith? That's even more idiotic than usual. Not only are Saudi Arabia & Sharia irrelevant but we are not discussing solely Ireland & even if we were your argument amounts to the nonsensical assertion that the Nazis did not persecute the Jews because they were all treated the same.

Saudi has laws that we might not like, but they apply to all.
Some Muslim and some Christian countries have laws that you and I might not like, but that is not persecution.

The persecution that this thread is about is beheading and otherwise murdering, torturing, imprisoning, forced conversion, rape, and the destruction of homes and churches.


And Greg, the Nazis did not persecute all Germans.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Elmore
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 04:02 PM

In the First Baptist Church ( in my county a church could accurately call itself the Fortieth Baptist Church) where I live, the sign outside reads "God help The USA." I feel persecuted.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 04:30 PM

at least jim is worried about the loss of life to a woman pregnant and we probably all agree with that sentiment.
it is unclear to me if he supports the destruction of human life for lesser reasons by those who "gave themselves the power of life and death....". as the thread has already drifted that way I did not think I should remain silent.
it is also unclear if he really does think his arguments are accurately and logically addressing the issue.
if he does , and stands alone for the truth [other than greg] then he has the satisfaction of having spoken truly.
a blessing on his houses.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 05:03 PM

some Christian countries have laws that you and I might not like, but that is not persecution

Why not persecution (see definition above), pray??

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 05:34 PM

Why not persecution (see definition above), pray??

Your definition is not about persecution.
The persecution that this thread is about is beheading and otherwise murdering, torturing, imprisoning, forced conversion, rape, and the destruction of homes and churches.

Not non-discriminatory laws that apply to a whole population.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 06:08 PM

The persecution that this thread is about is beheading and otherwise murdering, torturing, imprisoning, forced conversion, rape, and the destruction of homes and churches.

Only by your conveniently narrow, iconoclastic & personal definition, Keith. Try joining the real world.

Once again, see definition of persecution, above.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 09:23 PM

So what varieties of persecution is it you think most Christians deserve ( your words), and which sorts do do draw the line at, greg?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 03:08 AM

So Greg, you accept that under my "conveniently narrow, iconoclastic & personal definition" of persecution, Christians are victims but not perpetrators.

Under your definition where persecution is any state with laws that some find unreasonable, everyone in the world is a victim.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 07:07 AM

Err.I Anyone care to use the word sharia in the context of what it means? Some ignorance of the first order going on.

Saudi law says that Sharia is the legally binding outcome of arbitration in both civil and criminal disputes. To access Sharia, not only do both sides have to agree but both sides have to be Muslim as it is Islamic process for Islamic people. If anyone else is tried, it is by courts and judges which may invoke Allah to be guiding their interpretation of the law, and the law will not contradict the Q'ran but it is a criminal or civil court that would try a Christian. You do not qualify for Sharia.

And I thought I was the thick one when it came to religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 07:53 AM

Alcohol is forbidden under Sharia.
Muslim or not, you are not allowed to make it or drink it in Saudi.
Greg would say they are being persecuted.
I would not.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 08:22 AM

"Your definition is not about persecution."
You appear to be re-defining the term to suit your defence of Christian persecution of other Christians - by the way - Savita Halappanavar - (she who died because a Christian law prevented a life saving operation) was not a Christian.
Can you provide a definition that says that if a law persecutes the entire population, then if is "not persecution"?
Or, on the other hand, are you saying that allowing a woman to die or preventing 2 11 year olds from having life saving operations on religious grounds is not persecution?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 08:41 AM

I do not like it either and I am Christian.
Your laws are not dictated by any church.
You have elected politicians in a secular, democratic parliament.
Take it up with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 10:09 AM

I've heard it said repeatedly that you Brits understand irony a deal better than us Yanks.

Guess you're the exception, eh kevin?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 11:00 AM

"Your laws are not dictated by any church."
If you mean the Irish laws, (not mine) they have been dictated by the church from the setting up of the Irish Free State in 1922 - this is a long acknowledged fact.
The laws regarding pregnancy termination have outlived the waning power of the church, and the behaviour of the church has been a major feature in the events following the death of Savita Halappanavar
If you want a classic example of absolute collusion between Church and State (I'm sure you don't if it in any way implicates Christianity) you may look no further than the collusion between the Church and the various governments in consigning many thousands of young women into virtual slavery in the Magdalene Laundries which were set up in the 18th century to 'reform fallen women' and which operated without interruption right p to 1996 (I have no doubt that you will now claim that these are not extreme examples of Christian persecution).
Denying realities now seem to be par for the course for you.
It is a debasement of all true Christians to disown the appalling crimes committed in the name of their/your (sic) god.
the abortion laws in Ireland, and in every other Catholic country are a direct result of church pressure.
Incidentally, I suppose you know that the stance on pregnancy termination for whatever reason, taken by the church is that it is murder, ergo - nation promoting it is guilty of mass-murder?
Welcome to the exclusive world of human rights criminals!
Can we assume we are not going to get a dictionary version of "persecution" and we are going to continue to be treated to your own made-up version?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 11:54 AM

Your democratically elected politicians in their secular Parliament can choose which laws to keep from bygone days, and which to repeal.
No church has any input, so why blame Christianity?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 03:04 PM

Not my elected politicians - Ireland's - I remain a British citizen
The Government of the day here have now changed the laws despite bitter opposition by the church
The Christian churches (largely malign) influence reached back centuries in Ireland
It would be bad enough if it was just confined to sexual matters, but it isn't - it fed int its literature, education, arts... even its music.
In the 1940s the church deliberately destroyed some of the finest traditions of our music and song by identifying them "a threat to the nation's morals"
They forcibly broke up the crossroads and house dances, driving the nation's young people into the licences and supervised Dance halls; priests intervened in local musical gatherings, smashing musical instruments and beating the participants.
One of our singers, a lady now into her nineties, recived a blow on the head with a priest's cane which burst her eardrum leaving her deaf in one ear for life.
The attitude of the controlling Christian Church in Ireland to traditional music was the same 18th century Scotland.
Some of Ireland's most beautiful literature was placed on a "forbidden" list, The Index, notably one of Ireland's great rural classics, 'The Tailor and Ansty' - never heard of it? - not surprising, few people have outside of this country.
The influence reached into the schools, even following the child abuse scandal the church is still fighting to retain its grip on the bodies and minds of children through its schools.
Up to fairly recently if a Catholic wished to marry a Protestant he/she had to seek permission from the Bishop and guarantee that any children would be brought up as Catholics - there was a wonderful film 'A Love Divided' based on a notorious incident of this happening.
The influence of the church spread its tentacles into every aspect of human existence from birth to death
It took the clerical abuse of thousands of children by those who had been entrusted their well-being to loosen that grip   
It took a national outcry following the tragic death of a young woman to bring Christian decreed laws to the level Britain was at the end of the 1950s.
Those who attempted to bring about the few meagre changes were met with abuse, ostracisation, and public accusations of promoting murder from Christian fundamentalists and were met with vicious opposition by the church - who inferred that to support them was to promote the murder of children
The Church rolled in by throwing its facilities at the disposal of these fundamentalists and threatening anybody who supported change with excommunication - spiritual blackmail
It is to the credit of the politicians concerned that they have managed to produce any change whatever.
I have no doubt whatever that you will continue to deny that any of this is "persecution"; neither have I any doubt that you wll continue to attempt to shift the blame away from the church to "somebody else" - don't you always?   
I'm not blaming Christianity you are - I'm blaming the Church - it was one of my earliest posting in which I pointed this out.
The everyday normal genuine and practicing Christians have been part of my life throughout the length of it - many of my family are practicing Christians, as are virtually all our friends and neighbours.
These are the real, everyday, lifelong victims of fundamental and extreme religious persecution by those you have defended with your deliberate distortions of the truth.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Elmore
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 04:07 PM

At my doctor's office there's a bible in the waiting room, and a copy of the New Testament in the examining room. I feel persecuted.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 04:08 PM

The Catholic Church has no power in Ireland except what the Irish choose it to have.
It is not the only country with a Catholic tradition.
You are a modern democracy and have a choice.
Stop whining about how evil the Christians are just because you can't say no to a priest.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 05:00 PM

YES IT BLOODY WELL HAS - IT HAS CLUNG ONTO THAT POWER BY FEAR AND SPIRITUAL BLACKMAIL AND IT CONTINUES TO ATTEMPT TO DO SO
IT CERTAINLY IS NOT THE ONLY CATHOLIC COUNTRY AND THOSE POWERS ARE USED ELSEWHERE - ASK THE CHILDREN WHO WERE RAPED AND LEFT TO DIE BY THE RELIGIOUS INSTITUTIONS THAT FORCED THEM TO FLEE TO RECIEVE LIFE-SAVING MEDICAL TREATMENT
TO DENY THAT FACT IS TO PARTICIPATE IN THE ONGOING PERSECUTION OF THOSE TOO POOR AND WITHOUT THAT INFLUENCE
ARE YOU HONESTLY CLAIMING THAT THE CHURCH HAS NOTHING TO THESE BESTIALITIES?
YOU REALLY SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF YOUR PERSISTENT SUPPORT FOR HUMAN RIGHTS ATROCITIES
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 08:44 PM

More time now
How dare you reduce the Catholic church's hold over it's devotees to "you can't say no to a priest." - what kind of people are you?
You and your mate who has described the death of a young woman because of religiously imposed laws prevented her from having a life saving operation as "making abortion or contraception difficult to obtain" barbarians, are a matched pair
The situation of refusing to save a life by performing a termination pertains to every single Catholic (Christian) country on this planet.
I'm sure that this will bore MtheGM out of his skull, but:
My father was a devout Catholic, an altar boy and collegiate student at SFX in Liverpool, with the Achilles heel of also being a dedicated anti-Fascist.
In 1937, appalled at what was happening to fellow-believing Jews in Europe, he volunteered to fight in Spain to try and stop the rise of Fascism in Europe. He was wounded and taken prisoner-of-war in one of Franco's 'Christian' prisons.
I found out a couple of years ago from a Liverpudlian historian of that period, that over the term of his imprisonment, he and several other fellow-prisoners were taken out few mornings each week and placed before a firing squad.
Each time the prison chaplain performed he Last Rites on the 'condemned men'.
In his case, these charades all ended with the firing squad and the chaplain collapsing with laughter and returning the men back to their cells.
These performances were kept interesting by the occasional genuine execution.
He told me many stories, but the only time in my life I ever saw him weep was when he spoke of a young lad who was put into his cell as a suspected runner for the Republicans - a 14 year old 'postman'.
The Italian commander over the prison was inclined to release him because of his age and because there was no solid evidence against him.
Unfortunately for the boy, not only did the incident occur at a time when the war hung in the balance, but the prison chaplain happened to be a native of the same village. As an insurance policy against the Fascists losing the war, the priest gave evidence against the child as a "Republican Communist", and he faced one of the genuine firing squads a couple of days later.
My father returned from Spain totally traumatised - I understand he didn't speak for two years.
He was rewarded for his anti-Fascist activities by being excommunicated from his church for fighting 'in the wrong war', by the same Pope who refused to lift a finger to prevent Italian Jews from being sent to Hitler's ovens (probably the greatest favour ever done by any churchman for any member of my immediate family)
He was also rewarded by the British Secret Service with a political record as a "premature anti-Fascist" branding him 'unemployable' and ascertaining that my sister and I never got to know him until I was aged 12 as he was forced to take the only work he could find as a Navvy.
The legacy these events have left me is, now that I'm old there is hardly a single day passes when I don't think of my father with pride and remember the debt we owe to his persecutors.
Now tell me again about Muslim persecution!
Basically, there is no difference between the most of these 'Christian' countries and any other extremist religious country - brothers under the skin.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket taking pulse check
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 09:19 PM

Ok. Pulse check time. The only religious persecution story on today's BBC news website I can see is that of Buddhists massacring Muslims. Considering I am in Bangkok and visiting their temples, hearing all about tolerance and respect, it makes you think...

By the way Keith, I have consumed alcohol in Saudi Arabia, legally, not within Embassy compound and purchased legally too. After all, I'm not a Muslim. My female colleague drove a hire car for that matter. In some areas, neither is advisable due to local interpretation and level of intelligence of officials, but the law itself differentiates between expectation of Muslims and that of non Muslims. A brutal state with much to learn and I have little time for the fawning Western governments bestow on it, but as far as persecution goes, it persecuted its own people far more than those who visit by placing of restrictions not placed on others.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: bobad
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 09:43 PM

Pakistani Government School Textbooks teaching Hate against Christians and Hindus; Jihad and Martyrdom to Children

"This paper examines the role of school textbooks in promoting hate against religious minorities in Pakistan. On September 22, 2013, more than 80 Christians were killed and hundreds wounded when two Taliban suicide bombers targeted worshippers as they were leaving after a Sunday mass at the 130-year old All Saints' church in Peshawar, the capital of Pakistan's Khyber Pakhtunkhwa province."

Read more

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 10:12 PM

Yep. Sadly, no longer news. As aren't the Baghdad bombings. The only news in the quick and dirty pulse check I just did was the one I just mentioned.

Persecution of religion and indeed lack of religion is all over the place. I think the argument in this thread many find distasteful is the inference that Christians either suffer more or are more deserving of respect to push their particular flavour on others.

I suppose it must be frustrating when you are a member of one particular club that normal people don't sympathise with your club more than any other. Cheer up, the media obviously feels you can sell Christian persecution more than any other form of persecution. Hence we hear more about it.

In downtown Bangkok yesterday, the police told our tuk tuk driver to go a different route to our destination because of an Islamic rally coming down the street, protesting about an American film just been released that they reckon provokes them. What that had to do with poor bloody Thailand I don't know? But that's the problem with religion, it all relies on ignorant masses being controlled. Normally at the expense of other ignorant masses.

A plague on all their houses.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 01:15 AM

Not bored at all, Jim; but fascinated, & full of genuine sympathy for these experiences & empathetic of your position as a result. But you do me a grave injustice by accusing me of equating the, as it were, lowest manifestations of these particular disabilities, the difficulty of obtaining contraceptives, with the most severe, as you cite them; which I have certainly never done. I was merely using them as instances of the bottom of the scale of persecution as I perceive it. I do not regard them as any way equivalent, but as appearing on quite different persecutory levels on the scale. Which brings us back to ▢-1, Jim ~~ your peculiarly obtuse refusal to realise or accept that there are varying degrees of seriousness of persecution. The ones you cite from RC Ireland are indeed high on the scale; but still scarecely to be equated in severity with judicially recognised cap-pun by beheading for apostasy, surely: even on the Carrollean scale!

Do please get this point into your head, and stop being so truculently and contentiously offensive & unpleasant. It simply puts people off [see above], and is entirely counter-productive in attempting to enforce the significance of your position & arguments. I know these are things on which you hold deep & sincere opinions; but for your own sake try to control yourself and keep your temper when urging them!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 02:47 AM

Musket, You did not consume alcohol legally in Saudi.
You were being allowed discretion that could be whipped away anytime on a whim.
"being found with an alcoholic drink, or committing a crime under the influence will lead to trouble, whether the person involved is a Westerner, Asian or Saudi."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1160846.stm

Jim, the Church has no input into your legislature.
You really can make any laws you want.
The solution to "FEAR AND SPIRITUAL BLACKMAIL" is to just say no.
Nothing will happen.
That is what the Italians did.
You can do it too.
(If you actually want to.)

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 04:27 AM

"Jim, the Church has no input into your legislature."
Your moronic repetition of this downright falsehood (with all the evidence to hand you cannot possibly believe something that flies in the face of reality even recent history and personal experience.
The woman who was denied her life saving operation and the children who were forced to flee the country to save their lives were in the situation they were on religious grounds
Savita Halappanavar was actually told by a member of the medical staff that her pregnancy could not be terminated because "Ireland was a Catholic country" - the family of the 11 year old who was raped, given two sexually transmitted diseases and achieved a pregnancy which, it was admitted by medical experts, would kill her, was told that "she should accept her martyrdom with pride".
Church influence in the governance of 'religious' countries is and always has been a fact of life - it is only when really bad things happen that things are forced to change.
The politicians who had the courage to bring about the meagre changes that (hopefully - nowhere near finished yet) have been decided on, did so by running a gauntlet of abuse, postings of horrific images of so-called "murdered" unborn children, and most important, the greatest threat taken seriously by anybody who has received a religious education, the threat of excommunication - eternal damnation.
The Jesuits had it in a nutshell "Give me a child for for his first seven years and I'll give you the man" - the Manchurian Candidate didn't come anywhere near the power of the established church for technique.
In all the arguments we have had I have never once seen you display one single shred of humanity - Israel, Ireland, the Arms Trade, Travellers, massacred refugees, and now religion; you have never displayed a single degree of sympathy for human beings or understanding of the human condition.
On all of these subjects you have chosen your side and thrown an enormous amount of your time and energy in backing the various establishments - human rights abusers, mass murderers, the dealers in and users of Chemical weapons, and now the present bunch of mind-benders you are defending here.....
You have never once attempted to explain the mass rape of children at the hands of the clergy - here you are openly defending Church inspired laws which sent a pregnant woman to her death because "Ireland is a Catholic country" - you have made no reference to this whatever despite the fact that it concerns every Catholic living in a Catholic country - who cannot even use contraception without risking the damnation of their soul, according to the church.
Once again you are defending part of The Establishment (the Established Church) and its malign influence on people in general.
Your arguments (what there is of them - only continued and repetative denials here and a refusal to produce counter-arguments) are equivalent to those in defense of the clerical pedophiles who laid the blame on the children who tempted the priests and allowed themselves to be raped, and the parents who "looked the other way while it was happening".
You have either totally failed to grasp the power wielded by any influential church or you are happy that those who have that power continue to use it in the way they unarguably do.
If you genuinely believe that the church has no influence in "religious countries", show us that it hasn't - it is a long established and fully accepted fact that it most certainly has.   
Muskett had it about right when he quoted the old adage about "the Church of England being the Tory party at prayer?" - even in 'enlightened' Britain.
Mike
Sorry - you are still counting corpses and comparing the numbers and resorting to the old schoolyard accusation "he hit me harder sir".
The Christian Church has been an active exponent in massive atrocities in the past and will be in the future should they feel the need and be given the opportunity.
Concentrating on one single set of atrocities by one particular group of religious head-cases will only make that threat an inevitability.
Unlike your friend here, you've moved away from your dismissive attitude to the situation all Catholics find themselves in regarding pregnancy termination.
I can't ever recall your commenting on the religious (inter-Christian) conflict that has claimed many thousands of lives in the North Eastern part of this country in recent times, and continues, or at least, threaten to do so - do you have an opinion - do you care?
You haven't commented on these arguments in relation to the power of the various churches: malign, neutral, good.... do you have an opinion or is your concern only for the current body-count?   
The fact that Islamic fanatics hold centre stage at the present time is immaterial to our and our children's future well-being.
Islamism, Christianity, Judaism are brand names of the same product - if they are going to serve humanity as they should and claim to do, they need to be given their rightful place in sciety, which is certainly not where any of them are at the present time.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 04:53 AM

I am not counting corpses, Jim I have already agreed that anywhere that corpses result, in whatever quantities, is equivalent in obloq

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 05:20 AM

I am not "counting corpses", Jim I have already agreed that anywhere that corpses result, in whatever quantities, is equivalent in obloquy: but motivation is still a factor; publicly cutting off someone's head with a blunt knife as outcome of a judicial decision after what passes for due legal process is at the top of even that scale, and if you can't see that then your blinkers must have turned into a complete blindfold. &, as you admit, the horrible 'embrace-your-martyrdom' times for pregnant children in Ireland are in the past - the too recent past agreed, but not NOW, this moment, as the beheadings in Tripoli &c are.

But you persist in regarding even more minor abuse & disadvantages as being indistinguishable from those: "Persecution is persecution", you say; making no distinction as to whether the deaths resultant are deliberate judicial execution, or a by-product of other prohibitions; and all of them equivalent to the expense & inconvenience of having to make a journey to get a safe termination. You are being disgracefully disingenuous ~~ & you know it. You are, as you have frequently demonstrated, incapable of shifting any entrenched position that you have once adopted; which always redounds to the detriment of such decent points or arguments that you might have.

I agree with you that all religions are restrictive and malign in influence. But then to go on as you do & adopt the anti-Hegelian stance that all of them are equally so, & no distinction can be made between them on that score, is just bloody silly. Stop switching off your brain whenever the topic of religion comes up, for heavens sake. You are making a thorough idiot of yourself, & you can see that I am not the only one around here to think so.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 08:10 AM

The politicians who had the courage to bring about the meagre changes

Courage?
What were they afraid of.
Priests and bishops?
Do us a favour.

The Italians did it because they wanted it, not out of courage.
And that is the difference in Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 08:33 AM

You have now entered your mindlessly repetitive mode - I would suggest you carefully examine the Vatican pronouncements (not too much care needed - it's obvious enough bur anybody who cares to find it).
The Vatican (the head of the Christian Church in all Catholic Churches in the world) deliberately covered up the sexual abuse of children and allowed it to go no for decades - they continue to refuse access to many of the documents - exactly where do you think the blame for this lies - the children who were abused, their parents, the authourities, weak government..... ????
I think you have now said enough to make any conversation with you unnecessary - your crude defence of the continuing of the leading Christian Church in the world.
There is no comparison to what happened in Italy and the situation in Ireland
I suggest you read the full article article rather than taking your usual rout of blaming the people for the crimes of the government and the church (if you don't find it too difficult and "boring" that is!!
Now go away.
Jim Carroll

Abortion in Italy
Lesley Caldwell was born in Australia and came to England in 1967. She is currently completing a Ph.D. on changes in family legislation in Italy. The gathering of information on abortion was made possible by a research grant from the Central Research Fund of London University.
Lesley Caldwell
The passing of a law legalizing abortion in Italy was the parliamentary solution to a situation of illegality of scandalous proportions. The law, one of the most advanced in Western Europel was the result of a hard fought battle, a compromise solution won after six years of bargaining, delays and mass mobilization. The extreme discrepancy between the previous law on abortion and the reality of women's lives (estimates of three million illegal abortions a year were common) led to a campaign to change the law; it also led to extensive examination of what abortion means and what, as feminists we are asking-in terms of what is possible and what the limits are-when we demand and win rights through legislation. The range of the abortion debate in Italy and the extent of issues recognized as requiring discussion and analysis is striking compared with the English situation. Until the most recent attack on the 1967 Act, the debate around abortion in Britain has primarily stressed the class basis for the need to gain and retain abortion rights from the state. This stress has led to an apparent clarity about what abortion means and how it is lived that seems at variance with the confusion many women feel. While some groups obviously have tackled these questions, those aspects that most readily lend themselves to mobilization have predominated. A reluctance to take on areas seen as unpopular or difficult has been particularly noticeable on the English left. The Italian experience offers us a very different situation, one from which we may profitably continue to discuss the complexity of abortion as an issue for feminists.
The Church Much of the explanation lies in the position of the Catholic Church in Italy. The power and strength of the Vatican and of the organized church is exerted in economic and political terms but it is also exercised at a more local level through its strength in the provision of social services and in neighbourhood organizations. The Italian state has not a 'welfare state' type programme of assistance and the church has filled many of the gaps by its interest in, and responsibility for the provision of services like nurseries, care of the aged, hospitals, clinics etc, all of which have considerable effect on people's lives in their families and homes. It is this interest which has been of particular importance in contributing to maintaining Catholic attitudes to the family and to sexuality. The church's statements on sexuality and the family represent the most significant proportion of its public statements to the faithful. It is a central doctrinal area and one through which the church is intent on reinforcing and extending its control. Its position is that marriage exists primarily for the procreation and education of children, it is a serious liaison and as such cannot be dissolved; sex is a potentially dangerous capacity which may only be used under certain conditions and even within marriage (the fundamental condition) there must be limits on its use. The primary aim of sexual encounters-the possibility of procreation-means that any form of contraception other than a 'natural' one (i.e. the rhythm method or abstinence) is forbidden. Abortion involves the destruction of human life and can never be accepted regardless of the difficulties this position imposes.
http://www.palgrave-journals.com/fr/journal/v7/n1/full/fr19814a.html

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 08:49 AM

There is no comparison to what happened in Italy and the situation in Ireland
Yes there is.
The history was the same.
The difference is that the Italians were ready to move on.
How could the Church stop them, or you?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Elmore
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 09:53 AM

There will be no winner in this debate.Nor will there be a loser. The losers are the people who have been victimized by fanatics operating under the guise of their religious beliefs for hundreds, nay thousands of years.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 10:27 AM

Couldn't agre more Elmore (pardon the pun)
I suggest that anybody with the slighted modicum of intelligence and compassion read their way through these, particularly the first one, and bear in mind that this is what all practicing Catholics are brought up to believe and fear from the day they begin to understand.
It is not the outpourings of fanatical groups of extremists - it is the teacings of the estabished church which are expected to be obeyed on the pain of being sent to eternal damnation
Jim Carroll

http://www.thatreligiousstudieswebsite.com/Ethics/Applied_Ethics/Abortion/abortion_christian.php

https://americasouthandnorth.wordpress.com/category/gender-and-sexuality/womens-rights/abortion/

http://acatholiclife.blogspot.ie/2005/07/countries-that-allow-abortion.html

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 11:22 AM

The Italians rejected it years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 01:05 PM

all practicing Catholics are brought up to believe and fear

If only it was just the Roman Catholics.........

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 01:34 PM

Irony is tricky. Much of the time it essentially consists of saying the opposite of what you mean, as a way of expressing what you actually mean. When you say a more extreme version of what you actually mean, and want to backpedal, that's not irony. It's getting egg on your face.

I imagine if someone does start a thread about what's happening to the Muslim minority on. Burma, I imagine it'll likely get invaded by Islamophobes going on about Al Qaeda and Saudi Arabia and Rochdale and so forth. And Jim will, quite rightly, object. Now that is irony, of a slightly different kind.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 03:56 PM

Jim will, quite rightly...."
I have never cried "thread-drift" throughout the time I have been involved with this forum - I think I used it once ironically when somebody (guess who?) persistently attempted to steer the discussion away from the awkward bits, drifted off into his own Islamophobic little world - ironically; his reply - "thread drift happens" but that's your 'irony' for you.
Once someone opens a thread anybody who wishes to contribute should be free do so, no matter how far from the subject that contribution appears to be.
Using "thread drift" as a persistent form of attempted censorship is all to common of late doncha think? (please don't reply - purely rhetorical.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 03:59 PM

Half-time in Swansea v St Gallen.

0 - 0.

Isn't it a boring game?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 09:09 PM

Ok. What's on the quick and dirty BBC news app today. .

A Catholic school sends two Muslim teenage boys home for refusing to shave their beards. Something about uniform policy and promoting pride in appearance.

Pride and prejudice indeed.



Keith. Don't be a prat today, have a day off eh? I acknowledged that local interpretation of Saudi law can be an issue. Having a drink can lead to problems. Unlike here, you cannot ensure a court tests the legislative wording of the law. It is a brutal state but saying westerners would be subject to sharia law is bollocks. It fails the first test of agreeing to be bound by arbitration, which effectively is what sharia is all about and secondly, as sharia uses the q'ran as the guide, non Muslims cannot agree to be bound by values they are not "worthy" of understanding the value of. So the secular courts deal with you. Guided by Islam funnily enough. ......

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: bobad
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 09:31 PM

"A Catholic school sends two Muslim teenage boys home for refusing to shave their beards"

Yes definitely on the same scale of persecution as the 81 Christians killed by a suicide bomber in Peshawar simply because of their religion. Thank you for pointing this out to us.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 01:15 AM

Musket, it was not me being a prat.
You picked me up for this statement.
"Greg, non-Muslims living or working in Saudi are expected to live by the Sharia like everyone else.
That is not persecution."

It is true.
I did not specify what kind of court you would be dragged to, but thank you for clarifying that bit of trivia.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 01:18 AM

There was actually a big scandal not that many years ago, 20-30 maybe, when a woman, Penelope something-or-other, of the British community employed on some of the work British firms used to do for the Saudi government, was sentenced to be caned for drinking at a party. It was apparently a widespread custom to which something of a blind-eye was turned [tho it struck me as filthy manners ~~ if you can't do without your alcohol-fix, then don't take lucrative work in places where it's illegal and opposed to their lifestyle, I thought; talk about wanting everything on your own terms!]; but she drew attention to herself with untoward behaviour while drunk. IIRC the consulate got her out of it, & she came home to UK where she fell foul of the law & was prosecuted here for something or other. Clearly not a v nice woman at all...

Sorry my recollections a bit vague ~~ anyone recall any more of the detail? ~~ but it does emphasise that, as said above, insisting on importing our alcohol-dependent ways into a Muslim country can carry some risks.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 03:24 AM

"Isn't it a boring game?"
Like Keith with his permanent "thread drifts" attempts at censorship - please mind your own business if you have no intentions in commenting on what is being said and leave us to deal with our own shortcomings in literary skills as best we can.
"A Catholic school sends two Muslim teenage boys home for refusing to shave their beards."
I attended a school which served two distinct communities of pupils; those of us who lived on the large Liverpool overspill council housing estate and a tiny handful of somewhat better off kids from Speke Village who hadn't made it to Grammar School.
My Secondary Modern school ruled that every boy who didn't wear a (somewhat expensive) school tie – should be sent home for part of the day, and if it happened three times we were caned.
When we entered the second form, we all were forced to wear school blazers (also expensive – out of reach for my parents).
It was a constant battle between the school authorities and the poorer parents, including my own, who genuinely couldn't afford one.
They never resorted to caning for failure, but the constant humiliation we were subjected to (particularly by the gangs of better off boys) often made caning a preferred alternative.
Friends at the nearest Catholic school were automatically beaten for being late for morning Mass.
Repeated failure to be on time led to them being hauled up before the entire assembly and publicly and extensively berated by the priest, then publicly caned by him (some of them no doubt taking extreme pleasure from it, given their now revealed history).
Severe beatings and humiliation were a natural way of life in Irish schools and English Catholic schools, likewise the response described towards tardiness and failure to attend religious assemblies, right up to fairly recently - The Christian Brothers are legendary for their brutality, even today – occasionally pipped at the post by some equally legendary orders of Nuns.
None of this measured up to being "beheaded with a rusty sword" - merely messing about with childrens' minds by beating discipline and religion into them, often causing lifelong and sometimes severe damage, so I don't know where this registers on your 'sliding scale' exactly Mike.
Parental and educationally administered physical punishment was made illegal in Britain some time ago, by fairly stringent and strongly, often bitterly opposed laws yet there are still those who publicly yearn for the 'good old days' when "we and the teachers were allowed to keep our own children in line without the interference of the "Nanny State" (just like good ol' Capital punishment).
The battle has yet to be won in Ireland - corporal punishment was banned in 1994, parental physical punishment is still under "periodic review" according to the politicians.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 03:46 AM

"None of this measured up to being "beheaded with a rusty sword" - merely messing about with childrens' minds by beating discipline and religion into them, often causing lifelong and sometimes severe damage, so I don't know where this registers on your 'sliding scale' exactly Mike."
.,,.
I'm not even trying to establish a precise "scale", Jim, "sliding" or otherwise; but I much deplore the instances you adduce, far more than having to travel a bit for a termination, say: & am glad to read your first clause above, registering for the first time, in contradiction to your previous assertion that "persecution is persecution", so no distinctions as to gravity should be permitted, which appeared to be your attitude before, that there might indeed be distinctions to be made [tho if you are ref'ing a previous post of mine, which cited a report from Tripoli, it was a blunt knife, not a rusty sword, which it reported as having been used. Never forget: Accuracy Matters!]

Re my last post: thinking back, it was only the fact that this Penny Whoever was a woman that made it newsworthy IIRC. There were so many reports at the time of British men working for development companies in Saudi, Yemen, &c, being caned for importing & drinking alcohol that they were hardly news - used to appear in News In Brief columns. The attitude seemed to be that it was worth the risk of a caning to earn the sort of money they could get for this sort of work. Never seemed to occur to them how exploitative & ill-mannered it was to go to someone else's country but feel you had the right to import your own [in their eyes, illegal] lifestyle with you. Hope the canings hurt! Serve them right!

Don't know if this still goes on. Maybe the market for imported developers isn't what it was. Anyone heard of any such instances more recently?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 03:47 AM

My Secondary Modern school ruled that every boy who didn't wear a (somewhat expensive) school tie – should be sent home for part of the day, and if it happened three times we were caned.
When we entered the second form, we all were forced to wear school blazers (also expensive – out of reach for my parents).
It was a constant battle between the school authorities and the poorer parents, including my own, who genuinely couldn't afford one.
They never resorted to caning for failure, but the constant humiliation we were subjected to (particularly by the gangs of better off boys) often made caning a preferred alternative.

Most schools were like that.
No-one had to attend a Catholic school.
You had the choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 04:40 AM

"You had the choice."
I did not attend a Catholic school - I am an atheist - my father's church made sure of that by excommunicating him for his anti-fascist behaviour
Catholics who do not send their children to school in England run the inevitable consequence of humiliation, harassment even to the extent of ostractition
A condition of a Catholic marrying outside the faith was that they agreed to children being brought up and educated as Catholics
Today, if I wised to have my children in a non denominational school I would have to transport them forty five miles daily, the nearest non-denominational Portacabin, 20 miles away being permanently oversubscribed.
"Most schools were like that."
Yes they most certainly were - a form of persecution until the aw and parental pressure stopped it - what's your point?
NO CATHOLIC WISHING TO PRACTICE THEIR RELIGION HAS A MODICUM OF CHOICE IN THESE MATTERS - WHAT WORLD DO YOU OCCUPY???   
"I'm not even trying to establish a precise "scale", Jim"
Of course you aren't, you are merely trying to present only one brand of atrocities by downgrading all others - par for the course by people like you and Keith.
So far you have totally ignored the threat that all religions poses to society should the desire or right circumstances arise.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 04:54 AM

Today, if I wised to have my children in a non denominational school I would have to transport them forty five miles daily, the nearest non-denominational Portacabin, 20 miles away being permanently oversubscribe

Why choose to live there then?
Is it not because you prefer the culture of where you are.
The culture that chooses to live under all those laws that you (and I) find so unreasonable.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 04:56 AM

Just like those people Michael spoke about, who wanted the Saudi salaries but wanted to import their own morality.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 05:23 AM

"Why choose to live there then?"
Will you and your friends stop interfereing in where I chose to life IT IS NONE OF YOUR FUCKING BUSINESS AND IT IN NO WAY INVAIDAYTES A SINGLE WORD I HAVE TO SAY AS YOU HAVE PERSISTENTLY SUGGESTED IT HAS - FOR THE UMPTEENTH TIME BACK OFF
I wans't gong to bother with this, but your constant harrasment of my choice of home forces me into a position of explaining in full why I choose to live - I shouldn't ever have been put in this position on an open forum but your jackbooting behaviour leancves me no alternative - will do so shortly
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 05:25 AM

"...you are merely trying to present only one brand of atrocities by downgrading all others"

sez Jim in his customary assertive but not-adducing-any-examples mode.   Just show me one instance of where I have done this, Jim. I went to great pains above to try to get anyone to produce any occasion NOW, not 500 years, or even 10 years, ago, where Xtns were perpetrating the sort of persecution which they are suffering to such a degree in so much of the world today. The best you could come up with were nasty things that priests in Ireland did to some children, how many years ago was it -- could you please give me a precise date when the priest told the girl to 'embrace her martyrdom'? Then get hold of a copy of the new [out today] Spectator & read about what is happening THIS MOMENT in much of the world in The War On Christians by John L. Allen Jr.

Then no doubt you will think of yet another smartarse & abusive getout. Why does your tone always have to be so bloody unpleasant? Do you think we are all impressed by the extreme commitment you are showing? All it shows is what an unregenerate yobbo you take pride in being.


~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 05:47 AM

Try to keep it short then Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 05:58 AM

"Try to keep it short then Jim."
How dare you - you arrogant little twat
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 07:02 AM

The war on Christians
The global persecution of Christians is the unreported catastrophe of our time
John L. Allen Jr. 5 October 2013

http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9041841/the-war-on-christians/

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 07:03 AM

The war on Christians
The global persecution of Christians is the unreported catastrophe of our time
John L. Allen Jr. 5 October 2013
http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9041841/the-war-on-christians/

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 07:13 AM

"Because the bulk of the globe's 2.3 billion Christians today are impoverished and live in the developing world, and because they are often members of ethnic, cultural and linguistic minorities, experts regard their treatment as a reliable indicator of a society's broader record on human rights and dignity. Just as one didn't have to be Jewish in the 1970s to care about dissident Jews in the Soviet Union, nor black in the 1980s to be outraged by the Apartheid regime in South Africa, one doesn't have to be Christian today to see the defence of persecuted Christians as a towering priority."

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 07:16 AM

I apologise in advance for this, Keith's latest comment has led me to decide to deal with it in full so hopefully it will never be used as a form of censorship by him and his 'Little Britain' friends in an attempt to silence my opinions.
For several years on this forum I have been subjected to ongoing harassment by Keith and his buddies because of our choice to spend the rest of our lives in Ireland, rather than my birthplace and home for nearly sixty years.
This has been described as desertion and "hatred of "US" (Britons) and has been constantly used as a method of undermining what I have to say.
I have requested constantly that this stop – it is both inaccurate and extremely anti-democratic to me and anybody on this forum who doesn't live 'within pissing distance of Banbury Cross'.
As can be seen from Keith's latest forays into fascist suppression (terminating in his demands that I "keep it short"), these requests have been totally ignored and I see no end to them in the future unless they are stopped by others.
Here goes.
In 1973 my wife Pat and I embarked on a project of collecting traditional songs, stories, music, lore and contextual information from members of the older generation.
This included England and Scotland, but our main work was centred on Irish people, here in West Clare, in London, mainly with musicians and most enjoyably and fruitfully with Irish Travellers.
In thirty years we amassed a large collection of this information and made it as accessible as we were able.
In 1998 we were lucky enough to be able to retire and work on our collection, digitising, annotating, documenting and archiving it in order to pass it on for further use, as we had promised all those whose generosity enabled us to gather what we did.
We decided that the best place to top-and-tail our work was where the vast majority of them called "home", Ireland, particularly here in Miltown Malbay, where the bulk of our collection was recorded.
This has enabled us to put our collection into some sort of social context (sorely lacking in our overall understanding of the folk traditions).
Our move here has proved enormously successful in all this and has also enabled us to go on gathering information.
As far as making what we have gathered accessible, the media and arts groups have been extremely co-operative in what we are doing.
We have participated in numerous radio programmes, including a magnificent three-part series on our work with Travellers by a local broadcaster – this was for national radio – Lyric FM.
Thanks to our friendship with the National Archive I.T.M.A, not only have some of our recordings been put on the web, but their co-operation has enabled us to issue two double CDs of our work.
A high point will have been reached in the next couple of months when our Clare County Library puts our entire collection of Clare songs on their web for public access.
A n extremely generous grant from the Arts Council has enabled us to musically annotate many of our songs, bringing the publication of two books within our grasp.
None of this would have been vaguely possible had we remained in Britain.
In the early 1980s we donated what we had then collected to The National Sound Archive, now housed at the British Library.
Despite the fact that our donation led to their expanding their then holdings into an official traditional archive, due to financial consideration our collection has never seen the light of day.
There you have it – my "hatred of Britain" in a nutshell.
Keith has used our move as a means of undermining my democratic rights on this forum – he continues to do so.
If he does so gain I will request that any such postings be removed – if he persists I will request that he be removed as I believe his increasingly eccentric fanatical and extremist behaviour has, for some time now been a threat to this forum.
Apologies again – particularly to Keith, in reference to his command that I keep it short – I trust I will not be forced to raise the matter again.
Jim Carroll
By the way – one of Keith's 'weapons' in suppressing has been an opinion I once passed on racism in Britain, based on my experiences in having lived in three of our major cities.
I notice that a fairly recent survey carried out among British people and published in a British newspaper, found that one third of those questioned admitted to holding and openly expressing racist views.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: bobad
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 07:27 AM

"According to the International Society for Human Rights, a secular observatory based in Frankfurt, Germany, 80 per cent of all acts of religious discrimination in the world today are directed at Christians. Statistically speaking, that makes Christians by far the most persecuted religious body on the planet.

According to the Pew Forum, between 2006 and 2010 Christians faced some form of discrimination, either de jure or de facto, in a staggering total of 139 nations, which is almost three-quarters of all the countries on earth. According to the Center for the Study of Global Christianity at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary in Massachusetts, an average of 100,000 Christians have been killed in what the centre calls a 'situation of witness' each year for the past decade. That works out to 11 Christians killed somewhere in the world every hour, seven days a week and 365 days a year, for reasons related to their faith."

But but a Catholic school sent two Muslim teenage boys home for refusing to shave their beards - imagine that.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 07:32 AM

Jim, I admire your work, but not your making up all that shit about me.

The subject is still religious persecution.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 07:52 AM

Can I take this that you see no wrong in your behaviour and intend to continue as you have done for several years now?
If so, I may as well attempt to put an end to it officially now and save having to raise it again?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim McLean
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 10:27 AM

"A fig for those by law protected,
Liberty's a glorious feast.
Courts for cowards were erected,
Churches built to please the priests".
Robert Burns circa 1780

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 11:33 AM

Catholics who do not send their children to school in England run the inevitable consequence of humiliation, harassment even to the extent of ostractition

That just isn't the case Jim, in my experience. ( I assume you meant not send their children to Catholic school - anyone who doesn't send their children to school as such faces all kinds of problems from the law, nothing to do with religion.)

As for Muslims in Catholic schools, our local one has a pretty high proportion of Muslims - in fact some Muslim friends of ours who wante to send their daughters there had to get a note from the Imam confirming that they were Muslims in order to get in.

I don't know what the rules on beards ar, probably the same as Disneyland, no facial hair. A bit daft maybe, but very few boys are able to grow a sensible beard till well after they've left school anyway. The idea that growing a beard is a religious obligation on Muslim boys is rubbish anyway. It's no more so than wearing a kilt is obligatory for Scottish boys.

You missed my point Jim on my last post. The reason I'd see anti-Muslim posts as out of place in a thread about persecution of Muslim minorities isn't because I object to thread drift, but because in that context they would amount to Islamophbia, and I object to that. In a different context discussion and criticism might be fair enough, nothing is above criticism. And I see the same as applying in the case of criticism of other religions, the context is important.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 12:06 PM

"That just isn't the case Jim, in my experience."
Sorry Mac - you are of course right
I should have clarified that in my experience, parents who don't send their children to Catholic schools face problems from the church - I know this from bitter experience.
Because my father was forced to spend so much time away from home, my mother brought my sister and I up alone
She was at the receiving end of a great deal of abuse from visiting clergymen for not sending us to the local Catholic School.
"because in that context they would amount to Islamophbia"
Not sure I entirely agree
I see no harm in discussions about abuses of any religion anywhere; what I do object to are threads being taken over by Islamophobe fanatics whenever the opportunity arises, often couched in language that would be subject to incitement to race hatred laws outside the safety of the web - ie - using this forum as a race-hate platform on any subject under the sun.
The same people are the first to attempt to deprive us of our say, using every shitty little little trick in the boo to do so.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 02:00 PM

"using every shitty little little trick in the boo to do so."
.,.

Surely you mean "every shitty little trick in the loo"?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: bobad
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 05:18 PM

From: akenaton - PM
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 04:20 PM

The Arab spring? more like a dangerous swamp.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

4 October 2013

"Ennahda, the Tunisian Islamist party affiliated with the Muslim Brotherhood, has been forced from power by an overwhelming secular opposition.

And get this: now that Ennahda is out, not a single post-Arab Spring country is ruled by Islamists. All of them are secular now."

World Affairs

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 05:39 PM

So we're agreed on the principle involved, Jim. But I don't think it just applies in the case where a thread about attacks on Muslims in the real world is used as an occasion for further attacks on Muslims, but online. Other religious groups can get the same treatment, and I think it's wrong to go along with it, or share in it. Either in the real world or online.

And I think it's not necessarily true that there is "no harm in discussions about abuses of any religion anywhere". The context can make a great deal of difference, turning discussions about abuses into something quite else. It's a process that happens in a whole range of topics - gender, race, class...harm in discussions about abuses of any religion anywhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket between courses
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 08:04 PM

Yeah yeah. Christian persecution is worse than any other type etc.

Is that okay censor person?

Zzzzzzz

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 02:34 AM

Mac
"And I think it's not necessarily true that there is "no harm in discussions about abuses of any religion anywhere"."
I think it depends on whether it is discussed in context - in this case, whether Muslim persecution of Christians can be placed alongside Christian persecution of others - the inbuilt tendency of any religion to spread its gospel by any means.
I participated in a thread which started with the question "has hatred of Muslims become an acceptable form of racism?"
It was transformed virtually singlehandedly by one individual into a diatribe of hate directed at all Muslims, describing all British ones as 'implanted potential perverts' - one of the longest and most distasteful discussions I've ever taken part in.
People will use forums like these as platforms for such ideas; the only way to counter them is to challenge them all openly and put them in context, and not to pretend that persecution doesn't happen in Islam, but is an essential part of what all religion is - a definitive and uncompromising statement of our origins.
"Christian persecution is worse"
Can't remember anybody saying the Muskie - make your point or go back to sleep.
"every shitty little trick in the loo"
Thanks Mike - much nearer to what I intended to say.   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 02:46 AM

directed at all Muslims, describing all British ones as 'implanted potential perverts'

If you had a case you would not have to lie.
I said, explicitly and often, that the crime was NOT linked to Islam.
I have since given some of those quotes to you in reply to that accusation you now repeat.

There was a crime in which one demographic group was over-represented.
No hatred.
No Islamophobia.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 02:53 AM

Sorry Mac - didn't finish my sentence
"but is an essential part of what all religion is - a definitive and uncompromising statement of our origins." - and how everbody who disagrees with us is wrong - A SINNER.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 04:02 AM

everbody who disagrees with us is wrong - A SINNER.

That is not a Christian belief.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 07:43 AM

Fook me Carroll. You could start an argument in an empty pub.

I know I usually dismiss you as a ranting idiot with weird takes on life and occasionally music, but if you hadn't noticed, on this subject I am closer to you than the wannabe vicars.

My post above was, as should be obvious, a complaint that a post of mine upset a mudelf and was deleted. My post above was sarcasm aimed at them. The original post was, Clapton forbid, supportive to something you said earlier and ripping the piss out of one of your detractors.

Mind you, some of what you are putting on this thread is bollocks. Even to me, who sees hi lighting Christian persecution as opposed to any other as being agenda driven and distasteful.

Toodle pip.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: bobad
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 08:15 AM

"....hi lighting Christian persecution as opposed to any other ..."

Well we could discuss Muslim persecution I suppose but unfortunately the vast majority of it is perpetrated by fellow Muslims and that would have the usual mob screaming Islamophobia. The same mob which has no problem "hi lighting" [sic] Israeli "atrocities" as opposed to any other.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 10:32 AM

Even to me, who sees hi lighting Christian persecution as opposed to any other as being agenda driven and distasteful.

Not doing that Musket.
Just reporting that it is more prevalent by far.
Is that wrong?
Distasteful?
Sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Elmore
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 11:42 AM

Never have so many argued so passionately, so articulately, over a problem which may or may not have a solution. Not my place to tell anybody to give it up. Just sayin'.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 11:43 AM

Even to me, who sees hi lighting Christian persecution as opposed to any other as being agenda driven and distasteful"
Look a bit closer Musk
I am not highlighting Christian persecution above, below equal to.... any other religion, just placing it alongside, where I believe it belongs.
Any set of beliefs that are based on pure faith and come with no evidence, but carry instructions such as "thou shalt worship no other God but me" come with certain risks, especially when they are hammered into everybody who the various churches get their hands on as "indisputable to the risk of eternal damnation"
Get sent a package like that and any sensible person like that would call out the bomb squad.
You want people who have "driven agendas" - seek, and ye shall find - not me bro.
Jim Carroll
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 11:51 AM

By the way,
usually need at least one other person, though at a pinch, the pub cat'll do!
Won't bother signing, signed the last one twice

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 08:01 PM

Oh FFS!

Any persecution of anybody, by anybody,for any reason, is indefensible.

Ask those who lost the fight in Rwanda, Darfur and a hundred other places around the world.

You can spend the next ten years arguing for individual cases, and the only result will be an excess of hot air.

A much better response would be to aim your opprobrium at those who are responsible, and therefore in a position to end the persecution.

The Jim and Keith show is getting very old, very boring and ultimately unproductive.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 03:57 AM

It was never meant to be entertaining Don.

I am not highlighting Christian persecution above, below equal to.... any other religion, just placing it alongside, where I believe it belongs.
Me too, but I am also saying that Christian persecution far exceeds the rest, and have put up some evidence of that.

I do not understand why that is at all contentious.


A much better response would be to aim your opprobrium at those who are responsible, and therefore in a position to end the persecution.
An excellent suggestion Don.
Perhaps you could start us off.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 03:59 AM

"The Jim and Keith show is getting very old, very boring and ultimately unproductive."
Not getting Don - it has been for a very long time and probably from the outset, but I suspect it will bounce along the bottom for some time yet while Keith is determined to infest these threads with the bigotry, hatred and occasionally self-confessed ignorance with which he hd dominated these threads with over and over again.
I would hope that his latest performances have put a brake on his domineering and censorial behaviour, but I fear there's a little life left in the old - whatever - yet.
I have taken some steps to prevent him from interfering with my membership rights on this forum - the rest of you may make up your own minds.
I quite enjoy the gift of being able to express my opinions openly on a public forum and learn to those of others who share my interests without being told what I can and cannot discuss, and I am prepared to put a little effort into retaining that privilege.
Sorry if that gets up any noses - but that's me!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 04:27 AM

Cross-posted
"Perhaps you could start us off."
Hate saying it, but I told you so!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 06:02 AM

I know your heart is in the right place Jim, though your presentation often obscures that fact.

However, you might like to consider following my lead and ignoring one whose opinions you wil never alter.

I do not and will not respond to him any more, and I feel much better for having made that decision.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 07:30 AM

I think presentation limitations are something we are all saddled with - few of us are professional writers, tacticians, diplomats or child-care experts, so we do the best we can.
Ignoring is not a long-term option with someone who takes a proprietorial and censorial approach to many of the subjects that interest me and which I consider important, especially with someone who invariably insists on having the last word.
Wars of attrition are just as censorial as being told that you are not allowed to discuss certain aspects of a subject
There has to be a limit to how many subjects you are prepared to leave in the hands of such people - I have now reached mine.
Anybody familiar with the 'Thousand and One Nights' story of 'Sinbad and the Old Man of the Sea' will know how I am left feeling after a prolonged session with one of these individuals - see 'Homs Horror', 'Muslim Prejudice' 'Irish Famine' and 'No Traveller Signs' threads for examples.
Sorry to disagree.
Best
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 07:41 AM

Don,
ignoring one whose opinions you wil never alter.

My only opinion here is that Christians are being very badly persecuted.
Do you disagree?
Are you with those who object to such an opinion even being expressed?
Do you support Jim's demand to discuss something else instead?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 08:23 AM

As to the correctness of the location of Jim's ♥: we have had this conversation before IIRC. I am afraid that I cannot 100% so regard anyone who turns so nasty when he is getting the worst of an argument: see my posts of 1 Oct 1235pm, 3 Oct 0115pm, 4 Oct 0525am; in the first of these, I wrote

"It's all your usual MO ~~ you give the impression of wanting to argue intelligently till anyone asks you to question one of your fatuous OK shibboleths; then you turn illogical; when this is pointed out, you turn nasty."

I think this a fair summary of Jim's argumentative system [if it can be graced with such a designation]. I don't think such goings-on at all the mark of good-heartedness. Nor is his insistence that, if I ever take Keith's part against his blustering bullying & censoriousness, then I must be either K's 'Fairy Godmother' or his 'poodle'. I'm not worried about his fatuous animadversions; but can't help being reminded of Julian Fellowes' brilliant summary of a disagreeable character in his novel 'Snobs': "He was the sort of person who insults you and then says 'Can't you take a joke?'."

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 08:27 AM

"Do you support Jim's demand to discuss something else instead?"
Thank you for a perfect example of something I missed out from my list - your constant distortion of what your opponents' positions are.
I might have added "hatred of Britain", living 'somewhere else' and 'support for Al Qaeda, the IRA and other terrorist groups.
We'll bring this to an all-round successful conclusion for everybody, yourself included, if you keep on going in the direction you are.
Thank you again
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 09:35 AM

Jim also represents in ♠♠♠ that peculiar left·wing conviction, peculiar in my experience to those of that particular political orientation, that any who do not share their views cannot possibly be motivated by any sort of ethical belief or genuine principle, but must be evil people driven to their views by a combination of selfishness & ill-will. IMO the ill-will ~~ often positive vindictiveness indeed ~~ is much more exemplified in Jim's attitudes and expressions that any posted by others of us of who occupy more moderate, less doctrinaire & agenda-driven, positions. The idea of living and letting live, accepting that some opinions different from one's own might nevertheless be held disinterestedly because genuinely viewed by their holders as correct and true, does not enter the thinking of such as those whom he represents so vehemently. When he meets someone intelligent who will nevertheless not accept all his shibboleths (& remember he has more than once aggressively denounced me for being 'educated'!), his entire security & raison d'être appear threatened.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Stringsinger
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 10:05 AM

It seems to me that Jim is making perfect sense. I applaud his history and knowledge in folk music.

I understand his need to move to Ireland to continue his studies. He would have
the same trouble in America as in Britain. Most people in the US wouldn't understand what he is talking about or be interested in his pursuit. I think
that it's important.

Labeling him as a "leftie" smacks of contemporary McCarthyism.

Every religion in the world is both persecuted and a persecutor. It's a tribal
identification that culminates in violence and warfare.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: bobad
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 10:07 AM

Mike nails it as usual.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 10:29 AM

Who has recently employed the label "leftie", String?

Thank you, bobad.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 10:44 AM

As with other things, my politics, or your imagined assessment of my politics is not in any slightest way your business.
You obviously share Keith's censorious attitude to who should be allowed to post on this forum and how they should be allowed to express themselves.
Whatever my politics might be it has nothing to do with my attempting to have my say unmolested on this forum.
You have tried hard enough in the past to find them out and your latest intervention shows why I refused to comply.
I have never at any time attempted to tell anybody what they should say or when or how they should say it, whether I agree with them or not.
Arguing strongly for a point of view, left, right or centre, is one thing - deliberately attempting to suppress those views from being stated is another (and attempting to smear them with ill-informed political innuendo yet another).
If you have anything to say about what I believe, please feel free to challenge it - otherwise, mind your own bloody business what my politics are.
Stringsinger says it all as far as I'm concerned.
Keith has til the end of the day to sort his aggressive and dictatorial behaviour towards other members of this forum.
There comes a time in life when parents have to let their children make their own way through the world - I suggest that time has long passed in your case.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 11:14 AM

Keith's censorious attitude to who should be allowed to post on this forum and how they should be allowed to express themselves.

No one can stop you saying whatever you like Jim, but you can't make me join with you in discussing something other than the subject if I want to stick with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 11:44 AM

"ut you can't make me join with you in discussing something other than the subject if I want to stick with it."
Keith, I'd be as happy as a pig in the proverbial if you never wrote another word on this forum - but I would never in a million years demand that you didn't.
Where on earth did you et the notion that I was trying to make you "join with you in discussing something other than the subject if I want to stick with it."?
As long as I have been a member of this forum you have been using the accusation of "thread drift" as an attempt to silence opposition - you are the only one in my recollection to ever have done so.
Please feel free to say nothing - I don't welcome birthdays nowadays, but I would gladly receive such a present from you!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 12:06 PM

You can believe what you like, Jim [& live where your personal life & career take you ~~ for all String's saying, I have never mentioned a word on that subject & would not dream of doing so], and I have never accused you, just now or at any time, of attempting to prevent my saying what I wanted, and neither have I so tried to prevent you. But as to impugning my motives, and those of others, for holding the opinions we do, you show very much the intolerance and lack of respect for those of differing views typical of those of your acknowledged orientation.* And your MO, of resentment and ill-temper & ill-manners when your shibboleths are questioned & you descend to name-calling, I continue to hold that I have described absolutely accurately above, as bobad appears to agree, & do not need to repeat it. If you can't see that in yourself, well then you can't... But that is how I, & others, perceive the matter.

~M~

*Not that you are the only one, or even the worst. I well remember when I once asked Mr Bridge why he was being so unmannerly and abusive to meover what IIRC was quite a neutral matter, he explicitly stated that those who held views like mine "deserved abuse", as I was [believe me he actually used this locution or one very like it] "a would-be grinder of the faces of the poor". And him supposed to be a man of education [but you don't denounce him for being so, do you, Jim?]. I would never tell him he deserved abuse; but I certainly felt on that occasion that he deserved the utmost contempt!

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 12:29 PM

I broke off that post prematurely, as half-time in West Brom v Arsenal was drawing to a close [with W Brom leading 1-0, cheeky buggers!]; so I went down to pause the tv.

Further to String's unimpressive & officious intervention: as Jim knows, I have the utmost respect for his musical attainments & career, as member of the fine Critics Group & so on; so don't see what String thought he was achieving by diverting the topic in that direction. It is my impression that Jim likewise remembers some of my writing on folk. And indeed we have often both expressed regret on these threads that our mutual respect, and the things we have in common folk-wise, should be so unfortunately vitiated by other matters having led to a certain amount of contumacy over matters ideological. I remember Jim once remarking in that connection that the old Officers' Mess rule about no politics & no religion had much to be said for it.

But alas that would not do on Mudcat, would it? & so the matter remains. I wish Jim well in all his endeavours. It is absolutely no business of mine, I repeat, where he chooses to live & I can't imagine what can have led anyone to comment on that.

But, alas, our ideological differences persist. I fear I can't see that much can be done about that (can you, Jim?); but could wish it might lead him to fewer manifestations of quite such obloquy & ill temper, like inaccurate accusations of my having endeavoured in some way to prevent his speaking his mind!

As if...!

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 01:04 PM

Jim, As long as I have been a member of this forum you have been using the accusation of "thread drift" as an attempt to silence opposition

How does my observation that you are going off subject silence you?

You have until sundown to answer.

Happy birthday.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 01:36 PM

Slow burn

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 10:44 AM

... my politics, or your imagined assessment of my politics is not in any slightest way your business.

From one whose posts on non-musical topics are universally [see umpteen comments above & on other threads] recognised as doctrinaire & agenda-driven, isn't that a bit rich?

Not really thinking of trying to make the leftward inclination of your views a "TOP SECRET, Highly Restricted, authorised personnel only" item were you, Jim?

☺~M~☺

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 02:01 PM

" as bobad appears to agree"
He eould say that, wouldn't he
"I repeat, where he chooses to live & I can't imagine what can have led anyone to comment on that."
I can't believe that you are claiming for a minute that I am accusing you of such - against my better judgement I went into a long description of why we live where we do in order to prevent Keith from using it to suppress my point of view.
Your ranting about my so-called left-wing leanings
"that peculiar left·wing conviction, peculiar in my experience to those of that particular political orientation, that any who do not share their views cannot possibly be motivated by any sort of ethical belief or genuine principle"
only echoes previous statements of yours, along with your demansds that I reveal my politics a sort of 'Mudcat un - whatever activities witch-hunt' by both of you.
"quite such obloquy & ill temper"
I don't react well to witch-hunts.
I understand Brecht sat and repeated told Joe McCarthy and his team to "**** off" repeatedly, for which, my admiration.
As there seems little point of our having anything to say to each other now you seem to have returned to your self-appointed role of 'Fairy Godmother' I suggest you do the same
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 02:07 PM

Is it really your birthday, by the way, Jim? Or was that just a manner of speaking?

If so: then Very Many Happy Returns from Emma & Me.

If not: then Happy Unbirthday...

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 03:13 PM

Nope - given the up after reaching 70 - much appreciated anyway
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 07:02 PM

peculiar in my experience to those of that particular political orientation, that any who do not share their views cannot possibly be motivated by any sort of ethical belief or genuine principle, but must be evil people driven to their views by a combination of selfishness & ill-will.

I'm afraid I'd totally disagree with Mike's assertion that that is an attitude that is either confined to or particularly characteristic of "left wingers".

It crops up in people with all kinds of political opinions. If anything I suspect it's more characteristic of people with rightwing views, though that's no more than a hunch. But just look at any set of comments on the blog of the Telegraph or Mail, let alone any number of American blogs.   It's probably more a question of personality than politics.

Jim keeps on saying stuff about Keith attempting to impose censorship on him, but i can't see how disagreeing with someone, or even telling them to belt up is censorship of any kind, aside from someone in the chair at a meeting etc.

We are drifting aren't we? It's getting a bit like the Life of Pi, bloodshed and all...

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 02:47 AM

But but. ...

Surely religion is in itself censorship?

Accusing someone of trying to censor you when you question their invisible friend is a bit bleeding obvious to begin with. .. pouncing on you and trying to wear you down is not just what scientology advocates do. Other religions, especially Christian ones are very good at it too.

My responsible adult took her mum to our local church when she was up last as she likes church but her care home keep forgetting to take her.

I was told the vicar was imploring those present to challenge anybody who dismisses faith and fight to keep the church as a force in society. I have found since that this call to arms is as a result of a synod discussion into decreasing membership and influence.

Hence my suspicion over the perpetuation of a thread pointing out religious persecution of one particular cult. Christianity. Funny that.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 03:06 AM

I am not part of a conspiracy to recruit Mudcatters into Church.
The OP and the re-OP were inspired by news reports.
Take a look.

If I were a conspirator, the persecution would still be an issue worthy of discussion.
There would still be "the war on Christians."
http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9041841/the-war-on-christians/

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 03:10 AM

Extract.
" Just as one didn't have to be Jewish in the 1970s to care about dissident Jews in the Soviet Union, nor black in the 1980s to be outraged by the Apartheid regime in South Africa, one doesn't have to be Christian today to see the defence of persecuted Christians as a towering priority."

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 03:54 AM

"Hence my suspicion over the perpetuation of a thread pointing out religious persecution of one particular cult. Christianity"
Put n a nutshell Musket.
Two problems with the way all religions are spread.
1. We are taught from the beginning that there is only one god and that it is wrong to even question that "fact", immediately creating a them-and-us situation.
No choice is given in this; if you don't follow the instruction book you are a "sinner" - this is driven into you from the minute you begin to think - not reasoned choice, simply conditioning, and admitted as such - see Jesuit quote ""Give me a child for for his first seven years....".
I have known 'lapsed Catholics' who spent their lives in fear of eternal damnation because they abandoned the rule book they had been hnded at the beginning of their lives - "guilt" is the most powerful and widely used weapon of the church - this I something I have witnessed in family, friend, acquaintances, throughout my life
My father became a confirmed atheist, but he often said he didn't know if he would take last rites on his deathbed - the manner of his death never gave him that choice

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_guilt

Elsewhere, an old W.W.1. quote boasted "there are no atheists in a foxhole"
Absolutes from day one.
This situation polarises even those who call themselves 'Christians' or 'Muslims'.... into different, often hostile sects - look at Northern Ireland or the different interpretations of Islam.
2. This divide is often seized on by political, economic groups and used as a manipulative tool of self interest - don't have to go further than this forum for discussions on this one - oil and arms sales, territorial expansionism, or national or international dominance.
As far as I'm concerned, these are the important factors that give rise to religious persecution - uncompromising absolutism in church teachings and how that absolutism is put to use for gain and political power.
Until all religions are taught as philosophies and removed from the political and economic arenas we'll continue to tear each others heads off in the name of our various gods.
As far as I'm concerned, there is nothing whatever 'anti-religious' about that conclusion.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 04:00 AM

Kevin ~~ I take your point re Telegraph- & Mail- reading bloggers &c. But I sense a certain defensiveness in their position, a knowledge that many despise & envy them, seeing them as privileged beyond their merits & deserts; so rather than denouncing those of opposite views as 'evil', they sort of surreptitiously admit, as I see it, to feeling that their opponents might just have something to feel aggrieved about, & attempt to justify themselves to them.

With the left, OTOH, their conviction as I perceive it is that virtue resides exclusively on their side; they are absolutely confident of being the good guys in the white stetsons & their opponents the baddies in the black ones; which is why I find their unvarying truculently self-righteous tone so rebarbative.

Hope I have made my point comprehensible. Agree this a drift, but drifts are nothing new around these parts, eh!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 04:07 AM

"Extract.
" Just as one didn't have to be Jewish in the 1970s to care about dissident Jews..."
There is no suggestion that Christians are not being persecuted today - just that they are only part of a bigger picture.
Your (un-linked) quote is a representative from a Church body that has a bit of a reputation as a major persecutor itself - "glass houses maybe?
See below
Jim Carroll

The Global War on Christians JOHN L. ALLEN JR
Dispatches from the Front Lines of Anti-Christian Persecution

"JOHN L. ALLEN JR. is the senior correspondent for the National Catholic Reporter and the senior Vatican analyst for CNN, and writes for other national and international publications. He speaks at nearly fifty engagements a year and is the author of seven previous books, including his most recent A People of Hope: The Challenges Facing the Catholic Church and the Faith That Can Save It.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 04:12 AM

As far as I'm concerned, these are the important factors that give rise to religious persecution - uncompromising absolutism in church teachings and how that absolutism is put to use for gain and political power.

The Christians being persecuted are the poorest people in the poorest countries.
Talk of "absolutism" and "political power" are utterly meaningless in their desperate grinding poverty and helplessness.

The indifference to their suffering by those on the left, like Jim and Musket (but not McGrath let it be said), disgraces them.

Why are no left wing publications printing reports like that in the Spectator?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 04:16 AM

I agree with every word of your last post, Jim, and its 'conclusion'; but nevertheless consider it tangential to the actual topic of this thread, which is that, admitting there is as ever much 'persecution' going on of & by various ethnic & ethical entities, much respectable & authoritative research would seem to point inevitably to the fact that it is the Christian elements living under authorities hostile to them who at present constitute numerically by far the highest demographic of persecutees. Nobody is trying to deny that it wasn't always so, or that it almost certainly will not remain so in perpetuity. But such is the situation; NOW, TODAY, not at the time of the Crusades or the Inquisition or the Spanish Civil War, but RIGHT NOW, this moment.

You seem determined, on what you continually admit are doctrinaire grounds deriving from your own upbringing & experience, to refuse to take this vital point, the actual topic & gravamen of this thread, on board.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 04:19 AM

Some x-posting. I obviously meant your 0354 post, Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 05:49 AM

Persecution of religious minorities appears to have very little to do with their relgious beliefs and everything to do with their being perceived as minorities available as targets.

Comments such as "As far as I'm concerned, these are the important factors that give rise to religious persecution - uncompromising absolutism in church teachings and how that absolutism is put to use for gain and political power" are both irrelevant as explanations of persecution - and also implicitly appear to imply some justification for persecution.

That is equally true in relation to Muslims as it is to Christians. And vice versa.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 06:06 AM

"The Christians being persecuted are the poorest people in the poorest countries."
And some of the poorest people in the world are still being persecuted with the full co-operation of the Catholic Church - including their active support for fascist regimes - notably by savages like Mrs Thatcher's friend Augusto Pinochet. (note for Mike there unless the Chile massacres are out-of-date too, and the present collusion of the church in atrocities carried out in South America today to exploit natural resources like timber dont count as atrocities
Russia, who leapt the Iron Curtain over a decade ago to become part of the 'Free World' has lent her weight to a mass murderer gassing his people.
"The indifference to their suffering by those on the left, like Jim"
You dishonesty really has no limits, does it - the indifference to suffering is perfectly illustrated by hand wringing hypocrites wept for the slaughter of Homs yet who directed their attentions to hiding the role of the West in supplying weapons to the perpetrators and then persuaing us that there was nothing we could do about it.
I suppose you have evidence of any political views expressed by me other than those of Humanism - no, course you can't.
Dividing the injustices and persecution of the world into divisions like 'left and right' is as stupid as dividing them into Muslim and Christian - all need to take their share in the blame
The US and Britain have no problems in giving open support and friendship to Feudalist Monarchs who maintain their positions with the use of Sharia Law, nor do they have any problems trading arms with extremist Muslim despots who use them to mete out there despotism - they've admittted as much.
Stop attributing political positions to me which you haven't the faintest idea about and make your arguments.
"Why are no left wing publications printing reports like that in the Spectator?"
As stupidly partisan a statement has yet to be made.
I can and have accessed this information in any area of the press I care to look - I tend not to go to (the "left" whatever that means nowadays), not because I don't trust them but because people like you and Mike will use it as an argument rather than dealing with the real issues.
I do know damn well I will never get a whiff of information on atrocities such as those described above and fully supported by the Church from The Universe or The Catholic Monitor.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 06:39 AM

A footnote
Keith's unlinked quote comes from a writer who works for the Vatican (still one of the world's front-runners in religious persecution) who has dedicated his writings to persuading us that the answer to all the world's problems lie in becoming Catholicism - a faith ruled by a church that historically has brought suffering to some of the "world's poorest people and continues to do so.
"That is equally true in relation to Muslims as it is to Christians. And vice versa."
My point exactly Mac.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 08:00 AM

A link was given Jim.
You point out the Catholic background of the author, but can not challenge anything he writes.
It is all true, yet mainstream journalists will not touch the story.
Why?
They report individual atrocities, but never the bigger picture that is an ongoing extermination.

Again you express outrage at what you allege is persecution by the Catholic Church, but the same old indifference to real, unrelenting persecution and extermination, because the hapless, friendless, poverty stricken victims pray to Jesus.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 08:40 PM

Keith seems to struggle with his arguments. He says I am on the left.

No idea what he is trying to infer by that but many on Mudcat.org reckon I am a dirty rotten bleeding capitalist.

It's true too.

What was your point? We can't have the likes of Bridge reading that I sit in an adjacent armchair. ......

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 10:26 PM

Religious persecution is something different from the various requirements religions may make of adherents, sometimes reflected in civil laws where such adherents are in a majority. And it is not to be confused with the situation where religious organisations may be associated with governments that are politically or economically repressive.

Plenty to criticise there, whether we are talking about Protestant fundamentalists in the USA, Catholic bishops in South America, Mullahs in Iran, or monks in Burma. But persecution of religious minorities is significantly different, and it is best to recognise the difference.

It's analogous in a way to the distinction between xenophobia and racism.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 02:43 AM

Musket, you refer to this comment.

"The indifference to their suffering by those on the left, like Jim and Musket (but not McGrath let it be said), disgraces them."

Both you and Jim felt the need to challenge that you on the left, but not that you are indifferent to the suffering of people who happen to be Christians.

What was your point?
That you lack compassion.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 03:08 AM

Yeah that's me. I lack compassion.

Although the million and one Jung type character profiling exercises the public sector put me through reckon otherwise.

But you must be right. After all, you keep telling us you are.

Excuse me whilst I shut a few wards and knock off a few old biddies by underfunding. I never wanted to put something back when I sold up and retired. Perhaps the little baby jesus made me do it.

Zzzzzzzz



I was riding on an elephant earlier. My mind was wandering as it does. I saw a temple in the clearing of the jungle and my mind went to the "what is the best religion" thread. At that point my elephant decided to have a shit. No big deal except the angle of my seat meant I almost fell in it.

I reckon that Buddha chap was telling me something? Back in Bangkok on Thursday. He can keep more of an eye on me there. More ruddy temples than there are obscenely rich Catholic churches in Malta.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 03:24 AM

You have shown none at all here Musket.
Likewise Jim, Greg and Don.
That was my point.

You could have just abstained.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 05:02 AM

Yeah but bad enough you think you are right but without intelligent people pointing and laughing at you, you'd be unbloodybearable.

Anyway, nice to be almost on the side of Mr Carroll for a change. My detractor's detractor and all that.

Abstaining is seen by shallow people as agreeing. Ever seen a UK government with 51% of all possible votes? I'd hate to think you have a mandate to talk bollocks on behalf of the church.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 05:27 AM

So, what was I wrong about on this thread Musket, and what is there to laugh about?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 06:53 AM

Ah. The deconstruction of the word laugh.

Wondered what your next distraction would be.

Persecution is awful. Christian persecution is hilarious. Why? Because it is about as much a topic as persecution of people with an odd number of moles on their arse.

If you started a thread about people being persecuted for their belief you would draw intelligent responses I suppose but your agenda is loud and clear. Pointing and laughing is about you, not the people killed and maimed whom you see as fodder to push a sectarian point.

This is about relevance of one cult as opposed to others to society, not counting the baptism certificates of victims of hate. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 07:41 AM

Excuse my enquiring, Musket [esp in such terms as I am about to use, much opposed to my general principle with regard to the content & expression of my posts], but

WHAT THE FUCKING SHITTY BUMHOLES ARE YOU ON ABOUT?

Just asking...

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 08:00 AM

If you started a thread about people being persecuted for their belief you would draw intelligent responses

I did, but I got you.

If persecution of people with an odd number of moles on their arse was happening, no compassionate person would find it hilarious.

Christians are being persecuted to the point of extermination because of their belief.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: bobad
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 08:11 AM

"If you started a thread about people being persecuted for their belief you would draw intelligent responses"

"I did, but I got you."

ZING!

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 09:58 AM

If you started a thread about people being persecuted for their belief you would draw responses undoubtedly there would be some of the other variety. Regardless of the religious identity of the persecuted minority. I suppose if they were Muslim the identity of the people reacting with hostility might be different, but the essential message would be more or less the same.

The word "cult" in this context, as I pointed out, is perceived, and I suggest, intended, as offensive. Of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 10:49 AM

"You have shown none at all here Musket.
Likewise Jim, Greg and Don."
On the contrary - we have condemned all forms of religious persecution - you only want to discuss the persecution of Christians by Muslims - the old usual of Muslim bashing.
You have denied the persecution BY Christians and have done your level, undemocratic best to allow us even to discuss what we believe to be the cause of all religious persecution - the enormous power possessed by some Churches over the minds and bodies of its followers.
Your mate has waffled on in the background attempting to make persecution by the Christian Church a thing of the past and not large enough (at this present time) to be counted as real persecution - it is neither - it is happening now and it remains a threat where eny religion has influential access to our and our childrens' minds (and bodies - as has been proved by long-term and ongoing revelations)
Compassion is more than empty hand-wringing - it is genuinely wanting to do something about it.
It is certainly not about attempting to use the persecution of the people of one faith to denigrate and persecute the devotees of another
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket gettin.. can't be arsed
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 11:31 AM

Well. That flushed out a few bigots.

I really am proud of Musket.

Very early on in this thread, Keith said he didn't notice much agreement just hate.

Methinks he doesn't understand debate. The object of the exercise isn't to read sycophantic agreement and idiots fighting your corner for you, it is to explore.

I have explored and like many have concluded that this thread was nothing to do with the awful plight of people in what Keith's fellow UKIP members call Bongo Bongo Land but far more to do with UK Christians moaning about normal people not being taken in by their group nonsense any more.

Every time someone ill informed idiot tells me this is a Christian country, I tell them it can't be because I was born here. So was my mate Tahir.

Mind you , I could agree there is more press coverage of Christian persecution. Sells newspapers and frightens the white majority.

Also, there may well be more persecution of Christians overall this year, but it would be a guess. The only figures quoted here are opinion column inches in the Tory press.

Either state your agenda or fuck off.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 11:58 AM

Imagine for a moment that I have no hidden agenda.
Just imagine that what I say here is indeed what I actually feel.

Persecution of any group is abhorrent.
Religious persecution no less so.

I singled out Christians because they are said to be suffering most and their plight under reported.

We should be able to agree on this.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 12:57 PM

"Imagine for a moment that I have no hidden agenda."
Nah - rather read Ray Bradbury's fantasy stories.
"We should be able to agree on this."
Matter of pinion whether this is the case or whether the long-term persecution of all those living in countries with a religious agenda are not all suffering equally.
You have not only refused to discuss this, but have done your best to stop the rest of us from dealing with it - even to deny the fact that there is no persecution within Christian nations.
You suggested that if I don't like living in a Catholic country, why don't I move.
Why not suggest that Christians who don't like living in aMuslim countries move somewhere else?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 02:45 PM

None of that is actually true Jim.
The Irish people are free to choose their laws.
You can't blame the Church for their choice.

I have put up why I believe minority Christians are by far the most persecuted, their numbers dwindling from flight and killing.

No-one has challenged any of it, just sneered that they deserve it, and that it is hilarious.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 03:00 PM

We've been here - you've had examples of church influenced laws
Are you saying the lady who died because of "living in a Catholic country" was to blame fr her own death for not moving away?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 06:52 PM

Ireland is a free and democratic country.
Its laws are are created in an elected parliament by secular politicians and interpreted by an independent judiciary, and they apply equally to all.
You and I might think some of them unreasonable.
We can agree on that, but not that it represents any kind of persecution.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 07:46 PM

your level, undemocratic best to allow us even to discuss what we believe to be the cause of all religious persecution - the enormous power possessed by some Churches over the minds and bodies of its followers.

I'm puzzled by what Jim means by saying Keith has been doing his best in an undemocratic way not to allow discussion of such matters. (Well you actually say the opposite, but I assume that "not" got accidentally left out. ) That would imply that he had been doing something more than making posts here, or that he possesses or seeks to exert some kind of power over how the Mudcat is operated.

As for the suggestion that the cause of all religious persecution is the enormous power possessed by some Churches, I take it that the term "Churches" is used in an unusual sense to refer to any kind of religious organisation or movement whether Christian or whatever.   Even so, I'm very doubtful if that stands up to examination. A far more powerful cause of most persecution of religious minorities lies in popular prejudice against people who are seen as different. As is the case with persecution of other "outsiders". "Churches" can act in such as way as to encourage or to oppose this. Either way its origins are elsewhere, and have very little indeed to do with religious beliefs, either of persecutors or victims.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 03:15 AM

"Ireland is a free and democratic country."
You choose not to comment on the death of a young woman who denied a life-saving operation because of Christian inspired laws.
You continue to deny the power of a Church that inspired those laws and continue to chant your moronic mantra, despite the fact that she was told by a member of the hospital staff that the operation could not be performed because "Ireland is a Catholic country".
AND YOU OPT FOR "NO COMMENT" ON HER CHRISTIAN INSPIRED DEATH
And you dare claim that it is we who are lacking in compassion.
I note from last night's news that MI5 is concerned that young British Muslims are joining the Syrian opposition to fight Assad.
The Christian West declares itself satisfied that Assad will stop using poison gas and that the Syrian regime can return to its former actions of slaughtering all opposition by conventional means while we stand by and do nothing.
This is the scenario for the Syrian situation expanding into a Holy War which could involve us all - maybe with 'Keith the Lionheart' giving it for Christianity.
Damn them all - bigots and fanatics all, the lot of them - you couldn't squeeze a credit card between their god-inspired morality.
"Keith has been doing his best in an undemocratic way"
Throughout this discussion Keith has strenuously attempted to prevent discussion on "Christian Persecution" to include persecution by Christians, using "thread drift" as his argument.
That is an undemocratic attempt, repeated over and over again, to manipulate discussion away from the bits that he is unable to cope with, and it is one he has used persistently for years.
It is not conducive to free and open discussion on a public forum.
He has persistently attempted to undermine my personal position, not just here, but on at least half a dozen other threads by suggesting that I cannot be taken seriously because I chose to leave Britain and move to Ireland, therefore I must "hate Britain".
This is a deliberate attempt to negate what I have to say rather than to counter if with argument - a classic weapon of oppression.
both of these have occurred so often that I have been forced to request publicly that he stops both of these squalid tactics.
Keith's continued behaviour both undermines all our rights to take these discussions to wherever we, as members of this forum, wish to take them, and it undermines my personal rights to give an opinion by using smear and innuendo.
I won't even begin to talk about his long term proprietorially taking over of threads and his filibustering tactics which have set dozens of them to their 'Death-of-a-Thousand-Posts'.
You may wish to describe this as "democratic" - maybe I've missed something!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 03:22 AM

I chose to leave Britain and move to Ireland, therefore I must "hate Britain"
No.
Your hatred of Britain is revealed in your posts and your turning every thread into a platform to attack us.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 04:44 AM

I was married in church last August.
We were both divorcees.

CofE says this.
Everyone is welcome to have a baptism at a christening service in their parish church. There are around 10, 000 babies and children baptized in the Church of England every month. Every service is a time of joyful celebration and thanksgiving.

During the christening service your baby will be baptized. Your child is precious to you and precious to God. At baptism you make a decision to start your child on a journey of faith. The church and the Godparents support the family and the child in this decision.
Read more about Baptism

Weddings

Bride and Groom marriage blessing

Today more than a quarter of all marriages in England take place before God in the traditional setting of a Church of England church. You're welcome to marry in church whatever your beliefs, whether or not you are baptised and whether or not you go to church.
Read more about Weddings
http://www.churchofengland.org/weddings-baptisms-funerals.aspx

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 05:18 AM

Your hatred of Britain is revealed in your posts and your turning every thread into a platform to attack us."
You have reverted to lying abut something you have never been able to show is the case - even you claim to my reference to racism in Britain has been debunked by a recent Daily Mail report that one third of Britons admit to holding and openly expressing racist views.
you have also reverted to referring to my British birth and citizenship in terms of "you" and "us".
Thank you for providing such clear and underhanded examples to your attitude to free speech and honest argument on this forum
As I have reuested before, please do not continue with this shitty, bullying and undemocratic behaviour.
You refuse to even refer to the death of a young woman, caused by Christian dogma and church pressure.
You are an openly and obvious inhuman shit
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 05:29 AM

As a general observation, my compassion is inclusive. It is for every persecuted minority, without exception and without reference to the race, creed, or colour of the persecuting majority, or the presence or absence of valuable natural resources.

Certain others may shout loudly about their claimed compassion for their fellow man, yet be strangely selective about which fellow man is deserving of that compassion.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 06:04 AM

Certain others may shout loudly about their claimed compassion for their fellow man, yet be strangely selective about which fellow man is deserving of that compassion.

Shame on them.
That is not true compassion.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 07:48 AM

IF THE CAP FITS.................?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 07:50 AM

It does not Don.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 11:23 AM

I took Don's comment as intended to apply generally, and wholly agree with it.

A bungled medical emergency with tragic consequences, involving medical staff who appear to have totally misunderstood the laws of both of Ireland and of the Catholic Church, do not really seem too pertinent to a discussion about persecution of religious minorities. Professionals make mistakes from mistakes frim time to time in all countries.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 12:10 PM

Can we get this clear
This was not a "bungled medical emergency" - it was a deliberate refusal to carry out a life-saving (routine elsewhere) medical procedure on a woman purely on religious grounds - despite requesting the procedure she was told it could not be carried out because "Ireland was a Catholic Country" - a deliberate act of letting the woman die, simple as that.
This has been admitted by all concerned, to the extent that the government has been forced to introduce new (extremely limited) laws.
These were opposed strenuously by the Church, even to the point where politicians in favour of them were threatened with excommunication from the church - extreme spiritual blackmail which, as any Catholic knows, is tantamount to condemning the soul to eternal torment.
The South American cases were even more cold bloodedly devious as they occurred in a country that was allowed to carry out such procedures according to law.
An 11 year old girl, the daughter of an itinerant family of fruit pickers, was raped by a farmer.
The family reported the rape, but no action was taken.
Some time later the girl fell ill and the family took her to a church-run hospital, where they reported that she had contacted two sexually communicated diseases - they hid the fact that the girl was also pregnant and that giving birth would almost certainly kill her; it was also revealed at a later stage that the foetus had virtually no chance of survival, the mother being far too young and physically incapable of delivering.
These facts were kept hidden until if was too late for the family to insist on a termination legally.
The family appealed to the local clergy, one of whose officials told them that the girl should "embrace her martyrdom with pride".
To save the girl's life the family were forced to flee over the border to have the foetus aborted at an extremely late stage in the pregnancy - as a last minute act-of-mercy.
To describe these as "medical bungling" is grotesquely misleading - it is the religious persecution of an 11 year old child at its most gross - and it should have pride-of-place on discussions such as this.
To attempt to prevent such discussion is crude censorship - nothing more.
In the Sarita Halappanava case it is also extremely misleading to describe the refusal to terminate as " medical staff who appear to have totally misunderstood the laws of both of Ireland and of the Catholic Church"
The law, which has been held in place by Church pressure, prevented the woman from having an operation - the staff knew this.
Like the South American cases - the church opposes pregnancy termination under all circumstances and even opposed the shoddy set that the Government has now been forced to introduce.
Citing what happened in Italy is totally dishonest, as anybody who takes the trouble to read the unique circumstances that brought about those changes - once again, despite fierce opposition from the church - (link above)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 12:12 PM

The "cap fits" perfectly by the way
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 01:12 PM

Some examples
Jim Carroll

The Catholic Church and Abortion
3 of 7 in Series: The Essentials of the Catholic Church's Stance on Controversial Issues
The Catholic Church opposes and condemns any and all direct abortions. Even pregnancies that result from rape, incest, and present a danger to the life of the mother aren't reasons for abortion. The Church teaches that human life is created and begins at the moment of conception. The Catholic Church sees abortion as the termination of an unborn life, and therefore, it's always wrong, sinful, and immoral. The circumstances by which that life was conceived are considered irrelevant.
Catholics believe that willingly, knowingly, and deliberately committing evil is never justifiable — no matter how good the intention and no matter how noble the cause. This is a moral absolute for Catholics, and it can't be diluted or altered. The Church believes that if in even one circumstance, someone is allowed to knowingly and willingly commit evil so that good may come from it, then Pandora's box is opened for anyone to claim he was merely doing a so-called necessary evil for the greater good in the long run. So the Church teaches that one innocent life can't be taken even if it would save hundreds, thousands, or millions.
Valuing the lives of both mother and child
Often, people say that the Catholic Church opts for the child over the mother. Not the case at all. If a pregnant woman has a heart attack and needs emergency surgery, it's considered morally permissible to put her under anesthesia and operate, even though it's likely that she'll spontaneously abort the unborn fetus as a consequence.
The distinction is that her body is doing the act of ejecting the fetus as an effect of the primary action of the doctors who are trying to save both lives — the mother and the baby. If the baby dies naturally, the Church believes that no sin has been committed. But if the doctor or nurse directly kills the baby, that's considered murder, the taking of an innocent life.
The Church sees a drastic difference between causing death and allowing the process of certain death to continue.
Acting quickly in the case of rape
Even the horror and tragedy of rape or incest isn't considered cause to kill an innocent unborn life. If possible, the woman — who is also considered an innocent victim — can get treatment as soon as possible to try to prevent conception from occurring immediately after the rape or incest.
Moral theologians and doctors say that it takes several hours to a day for the sperm to reach the egg, so the Church permits a female rape victim to be given a contraceptive only if ovulation or conception haven't yet taken place and the drug given isn't an abortifacient — a so-called contraceptive that doesn't prevent fertilization and conception but rather removes, destroys, or prevents implantation of the embryo.
If a woman waits too long, usually more than 24 hours, though, conception may take place, and any procedure or treatment to eject the unviable human embryo is an abortion.
The Church's stand is that even though she's an innocent victim of a horrible evil, the unborn child is also an innocent victim. No matter what the circumstances that led to the conception, once conceived, that child has an immortal soul and has a right to live as much as the mother.

CHILE WON'T LET PREGNANT 11-YEAR-OLD RAPED BY HER MOTHER'S BOYFRIEND HAVE AN ABORTION
By Katie | Published: July 9, 2013
She is known as Belén. She is eleven years old and 14 weeks pregnant. She was raped repeatedly by her mother's boyfriend over the course of two years. The mother claims the relationship that started when her daughter was NINE was consensual. Thankfully, Belén's grandmother doesn't see it that way, and she alerted the police to the abuse, which the boyfriend admitted to. There are several reasons even an anti-choicer would think Belén deserves an abortion:
She is eleven years old.
She is a rape victim.
She is the victim of incest.
The pregnancy poses a serious health risk to Belen.
The health of the fetus is at risk
Belén's doctors want to terminate. But they are afraid to. Because Belén happens to live in one of the five countries (along with El Salvador, the Dominican Republic, Nicaragua, and Malta) that does not allow abortions under any circumstances. So, tragically, outrageously, and– I wish– unbelievably, Belén is being forced to carry her pregnancy to term in a country controlled by conservative sectors and the Catholic Church. Chile's abortion laws have regressed. Abortion in Chile used to be legal for medical reasons, but the notoriously authoritarian and torture-loving dictator Augusto Pinochet put an end to that when he took power in a coup in 1973. Though the country is no longer living under dictatorship, it continues to live its legacy and under dictatorial abortion laws. Chile only legalized divorce in 2004. Chile's president, the conservative Sebastián Piñera opposes reforming Chile's abortion laws. And last year the senate voted against bills that would have legalized abortion in the case of rape, a nonviable fetus, and for the health and safety of the woman.
This may sound similar. In another extremely conservative and Catholic Latin American country, El Salvador, doctors wanted wanted to terminate the pregnancy of a patient whose health and life were at risk and whose fetus had Anencephaly, a severe and lethal birth defect in which the brain or part of the brain is missing. Thanks to the international media attention and pressure, El Salvador ultimately allowed Beatriz, who is 22 and suffers from lupus and almost died during her first pregnancy, to have an abortion. But they claimed the abortion was a delivery and removed the fetus through a c-section, which is much more dangerous than the D&C Beatrice's doctors wanted to perform. Or you may be thinking of another extremely Catholic country in Europe, where a woman was denied an abortion of her nonviable fetus because Ireland "is a Catholic country." In this case, Savita Halappanavar died.
We have to make sure to raise our voices in this case as well and support Chilean campaigns to reform abortion laws. And there is some good news. Former president Michele Bachelet and survivor of torture under Pinochet, who is likely to win the presidency once again, is committed to changing legalizing abortion, at least in the cases of rape and for health reasons, as she tweeted on Friday, the day the story of Belen broke.


CHURCH CONDEMNS ABORTION PERFORMED ON RAPED GIRL, 11
Sibylla Brodzinsky in Bogotá
The Guardian, Thursday 31 August 2006
A Vatican official has said the Catholic church will excommunicate a medical team who performed Colombia's first legal abortion on an 11-year-old girl, who was eight weeks pregnant after being raped by her stepfather.
Cardinal Alfonso Lopez Trujillo, the president of the Vatican's Pontifical Council for the Family, said in addition to the doctors and nurses, the measure could apply to "relatives, politicians and lawmakers" whom he called "protagonists in this abominable crime".
The girl, whose identity has not been released, had "fallen in the hands of evildoers", the cardinal said in an interview with local television on Tuesday.
In May Colombia's constitutional court partially lifted the ban on abortion in this deeply Catholic country, allowing pregnancies to be terminated in cases of severe deformity of the foetus, when the pregnancy is the result of rape or incest, or when the mother's life is in danger.
The first test of the ruling came when the girl sought to terminate her pregnancy, which followed her being raped by her stepfather. The man admitted to the abuse, which began when the child was seven.
When the case became public, doctors were wary of performing the abortion as the text of the court's ruling has yet to be published and they feared prosecution. But the high court issued a new ruling, compelling doctors to abide by its decision if the woman's case fell within the criteria.
Once the ruling was handed down, the girl's pregnancy was terminated at a public hospital in Bogotá.
Carlos Lemus, the director of Simon Bolivar hospital where the abortion was performed, said he respected the church's decision but did not share its view.
"We acted within the constitutional framework," Dr Lemus said. "We were faced with the petition of a girl who wanted to go back to playing with her toys."
He said Cardinal Trujillo "calls the doctors and nurses 'evildoers'. I think the person who raped her is the evildoer".
A senator, Gina Parody, said: "The Vatican has the right to excommunicate whomever they choose. But I would hope that they also excommunicate priests when they rape boys or girls."
The president of Colombia's ecclesiastic tribunal, Monsignor Libardo Ramírez, said according to canonical law excommunication was applied to anyone who participated in the "murder of a child in the womb".
But he added that it would be up to Cardinal Rubiano Sáenz, as the leading figure of the Roman Catholic church in Colombia, to decide whether to formally apply the sanctions and to whom.
Public health authorities have estimated that more than 300,000 clandestine abortions are carried out each year in the country.
Illegal abortion is punishable by up to three years in prison for both the women who terminate their pregnancies and for the doctors who perform the procedure.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 01:16 PM

Professionals make mistakes from mistakes frim time to time in all countries.

Unless, of course, the said "professionals" are acting the way they do in accordance with religious dogma - which is no kind of "mistake".

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 03:20 PM

Last comment from me tonight:
The enquiry into the death of Hallapanava has just reported back that it was caused mainly from acute Septicaemia and other complications.
It was pointed out that problems arose due to the inability of the medical staff to deal with this condition, not just in Galway, but throughout the country, and it is recommended that it should be a priority to put this situation right.
Which basically means that anybody in her condition faces the same fate as she did because, even after the introduction of the new laws, it will still be virtually impossible to obtain a termination (see below).
Anybody who has the slightest knowledge of Irish politics knows that this, and other laws relating to sex, were passed and remain in place due to the excessive power possessed by the church, now on the wane, but very much still there.
Below is a report by the Family Planning Association of Ireland.
The report also points out that there is an average of 5,0000 young women from Ireland forced to cross to the U.K. to obtain pregnancy terminations that are not available in Ireland.
G'night all!!
Jim Carroll

Abortion is legal in Ireland when there is a real and substantial risk to the life of the pregnant woman, this includes the risk of suicide.
There are no guidelines available in Ireland to assist doctors to determine whether a woman's life is threatened by her pregnancy and as a result abortion is inaccessible for most women in Ireland on these grounds.
Abortion is not legal in Ireland in cases of rape, incest or foetal abnormalities.
Abortion is also criminalised in most circumstances in Northern Ireland.
There are some pregnancy counselling services whose sole purpose is to prevent women from having abortions. They misinform and intimidate women to achieve their aim. If you have been in contact with one of these agencies please contact the IFPA pregnancy helpline 1850 49 50 51.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 04:10 PM

Those are the laws the Irish people freely choose to live under.
That is their absolute right as free people.
It is not any kind of persecution.
No-one is forced to go there and be subject to them.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 06:47 PM

The professionals certainly were mistaken in their understanding both of church law and of Irish civil law, both of which accept the need to carry out whatever is necessary to save the life of the mother in those circumstances.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 09:03 PM

The inability of The Royal College of Surgeons of Ireland to accept requests for a fitness to practice review put them at odds with The Academy of Royal Colleges. Still being sorted now. ..

For me, I find it interesting how so many old institutions that were British Empire wide retained their affiliation and even name after the setting up of the free state and independence. Nothing to do with the thread but there again, differentiating between Christians and other cults when noting atrocities is a distasteful thread to begin with.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 01:16 AM

differentiating between Christians and other cults when noting atrocities is a distasteful thread to begin with.

It would be, but no-one did.
Just saying it is more prevalent.

Like when there is a devastating famine in a country.
Action taken there does not imply starvation does not exist elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 03:18 AM

"Those are the laws the Irish people freely choose to live under."
Those are the laws which Catholics have been brought up to believe it is a mortal sin not to live under - choosing to ignore that fact is to show a malicious ignorance of the power of religion.
You were the one who used a suggestion of "cultural implants" in Muslims to denigrate an entire population - and entire belief even.
The power of the church was undeniable up to the point that the clerical abuse scandal broke the grip, yet the generations of people who grew up under that grip are still subject to it - it's recognised as "guilt".
So far you have repeated your claim of "free will" without qualifying your claim in one single instance - by what authority do you make such a claim - you are not a Catholic, you appear to possess no special knowledge of Catholicism, you haven't given any evidence of your claims, 'death-by-a-thousand-denials' once again.
Things are changing in Ireland, but it has taken the revelations of decades of child abuse by members of the Christian (a form of religious persecution in itself) to bring about those changes.
It took the death of a young woman to bring about the minimalist changes in pregnancy termination laws.
Those changes took place under the threat of "eternal damnation" and are still being resisted by the Church (isn't the fact that an organised Church, the most powerful one on the planet, a sign of religious persecution?).
Is there any chance that you are going to are going to respond to the actual evidence you have been given, or maybe produce some of your own, or do you intend to just go on chanting your mantra (rhetorical question - I know the answer from past experience)?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 03:27 AM

Those are the laws which Catholics have been brought up to believe it is a mortal sin not to live under

The Italians were deeply steeped in Catholicism, but they chose differently.
Who but the Irish people should decide their laws Jim?
You?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 03:51 AM

"The Italians were deeply steeped in Catholicism, but they chose differently."
And you have been given the circumstances in which those choices were made, the main one being that the Church was forced extremely reluctantly to compromise - that situation exists nowhere else - or if it does, show it how it does.
It certainly does not in Ireland, where it took the revelations of decades, possibly centuries of Christian persecution (which you claim does not exist) in the form of child rape to bring about any changes.
You have still not produced one shred of evidence - this is simple mindless repetition.
Respond to the points you have been given and stop repeating meaningless nonsense.
Simple question - is not child rape using the authority of the position of Christian ministers and the protection of the perpetrators, allowing them to continue their "little weaknesses" a form of Christian persecution?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 04:04 AM

Are you saying that the Irish are not fit for home rule Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 04:14 AM

In Italy "the Church was forced extremely reluctantly to compromise "

Who forced them Jim?
Was it the Italians?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 05:05 AM

The described circumstances which do not exist elsewhere forced the
read the ****** article
"Are you saying that the Irish are not fit for home rule Jim? "
I'm saying that the situation exists everywhere the Church - any church manages to get a grip
Obama is now in the throes of attempting to nullify the effects of the Catholic church in the US - maybe we should rethink 1777?
You have refused to comment on clerical child abuse
You have refused to respond to a simple question of whether you believe Sarita Hallapanavar was to blame for her own death for "choosing to live in Ireland"
Which more or less sorts out who is totally lacking in compassion here.
Below is a report from this morning's Belfast Telegraph concerning a British (Northern Ireland still fits that description - as you have been at pains to point out) woman's experiences.
The Irish Times report includes descriptions of howling mobs of pro-lifers (sic) screaming abuse at the woman concerned
Feel fee to ignore it, as you have ignored everything else.
Jim Carroll

09 October 2013
A woman forced to travel from Northern Ireland to England for an abortion because her baby had no chance of survival has called for the law to be changed.
Even though her baby had not developed a skull and was completely brain dead she was refused a termination under the current legislation.
Instead, doctors said she would have to wait for the baby to die then have an induced labour.
"Before this happened to me, I didn't agree with abortion but this is medical - this is a dead body I'm being forced to carry in Northern Ireland because of this silly law," she said.
In Northern Ireland abortion is not illegal but is very tightly controlled. The procedure is permitted only if the life or mental health of the mother is at serious risk.
Foetal abnormality does not constitute grounds for an abortion in the region, which is not covered by the 1967 Abortion Act.
The woman, known only as Sarah, was first made aware of the severe problems last week when her 20-week scan failed to detect any sign of the baby's head.
She said: "We were told we were carrying a baby with anencephaly - it's the worst case of spina bifida so the baby has no skull formed and it's brain dead. It's very hard to come to terms with."
She flew to London for a termination earlier this week -- a move she said added to her trauma.
Every year more than 1,000 women travel from Northern Ireland to clinics in England, Scotland and Wales where access to an abortion is allowed up to 24 weeks into pregnancy on grounds that include abnormalities which could lead to a child being seriously disabled.
The woman told the BBC's Stephen Nolan Show she felt there was no alternative to terminating the pregnancy.
"My only choice basically was to carry the baby either until it passed away inside me or I could deliver and it would pass away," she said.
"The law won't let you have an abortion unless the baby is going to harm you."
In a statement, Northern Ireland Health Minister Edwin Poots said senior officials were now looking at the case to see if lessons can be learned.
"Senior officials in my department are considering this particular case on my behalf. I want to be 100% assured that everything has been done that we would expect to be done, within the confines of the legal position that exists in Northern Ireland," he said.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 06:02 AM

The Irish people have chosen.
Not any church, but the people.
Would you deny them their right to choose their own laws?
No-one is forced to go there and be subject to them.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 06:17 AM

You have refused to comment on clerical child abuse

We have had many threads about it.
This is the only one about the extermination of Christians.

We all hate sexual abuse.
Clerical abuse is a monstrous breach of trust.

Now, back to the subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 07:02 AM

You are wasting your breath Jim, trying to explain the power which the Catholic Church wields in Eire to someone who is totally ignorant of the situation and doesn't care to find out.

A measure of that determination to stick mindlessly to an insupportable view, is the lack of acknowledgement of the fact that all but a tiny minority were born there and had no choice in the matter.

Some people will never learn because they already know everything, based upon what they choose to believe.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 07:22 AM

"You are wasting your breath Jim,"
Been aware of that fact for along time Don
It's just occasionally worth the effort of watching him dig himself deeper into is hole.
What've we got
Persecution of women via church inspired and imposed laws on British soil - not interested so no comment
Clerical abuse protected and prolonged by the leading Christian church - not interested so no comment
Christian mind games to condition children from birth - not interested, so no comment
And so ad infinitum.
Persecution of Christians, especially by those nasty A-rabs - different ball game altogether
This is getting to be too much like cruelty to dumb animals - blood-sport for my taste off for some clean, fresh air
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 07:47 AM

Jim and Don, the only power the Church has is what the people choose to give it.
The Church in Italy was the same.

The Italians chose a different way.
The people of Ireland made their choices.

Who are you, Don and Jim, to denigrate their free and democratic choice.

You clearly do not believe them to be ready for home rule.
Too ignorant and superstitious.
Right boys?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 10:21 AM

I feel I must chip in this time, just for once in a way, in support of Jim's view of the matter. There is a demographic in Ireland which to my mind would qualify as 'persecuted': unhappily or unwillingly pregnant young women; and the persecution persists to this day ~~ the death of Savita Halappanavar was on 28 October 2012, less than 12 months ago. I agree with Jim that her fate [& it was by no means unique] should qualify in anybody's book as an instance of persecution.

Perhaps Jim would now admit the undoubted, statistically authenticated, fact, which he appears oddly reluctant to acknowledge, that, worldwide, Christians are at present the most persecuted identifiable demographic.

I am not a Christian.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 10:40 AM

That poor lady was entitled to an abortion within the law.
The medical staff failed her.
A blind eye has not been turned to their failure.
Action has been taken to prevent it recurring and to assign responsibility.

The persecuted Christians get no such redress.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Elmore
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 12:55 PM

Feeling poorly today. Seems like this thread'll outlive me.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 01:17 PM

Hell, way things are going, Elmore, the thread will probably outlive Christianity[sic].

That may not be a bad thing.....

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 01:56 PM

Not quite so simple as that, I fear, Keith. Following just extracts from just the intro paras to Wikipedia's account of the case, showing that none of the statements in your last post absolutely represents the fact of what the law was [still being disputed, tho since amended in something of a hurry as an outcome of the matter!, as I read the not altogether crystal-clear account]; and enquiries are ongoing in an attempt to establish a. the facts, & b. any responsibility that might lie. Meanwhile, I continue to consider the poor young woman was legally & judicially *persecuted* within any meaningful definition of the concept:~~

The death of Savita Halappanavar on 28 October 2012, at University Hospital Galway in Ireland, led to nationwide protests—which spilled over into India, Britain and many other countries—calling for a review of the abortion laws in Ireland....Following the death of Savita, the Media blamed the fatality of Savita on Ireland's so called ban on abortion in Catholic Hospitlas. However, the third and final National inquiry found that this was not the case. The cause was identified to be medical negligence which led to a series of uncompleted checks and inadequate Procedures. However, the Irish Government amended legislation in Ireland prior to the reports being completed which legalised abortion where the Mother's Health was in danger. A practice that had been in place in all Irish Hospitals since they first opened their doors.
However, events had spiralled into motion once the events became public. The news of Halappanavar's death spread rapidly through both traditional and social media outlets...Rallies and protests were held, calling for a change in the abortion laws in Ireland, which the protesters claimed led to Halappanavar's death. Indian diplomatic and consular officials requested an official inquiry into the events surrounding Halappanavar's death. The United Nations also became involved.
Prior to the investigations (prime minister), Enda Kenny, has stated: "I don't think we should say anything about this until we are in possession of all the facts." The Health Service Executive (HSE) named Professor Sir Sabaratnam Arulkumaran to head a seven-member panel looking into the case. The panel will seek to uncover all the facts and "to identify any safety issues arising in this case"

I think you will agree that nothing about the matter is quite as open-&-shut as you tried to make it sound. Meanwhile, if there is one thing certain about the lamentable matter, it is that the poor girl is dead; and should not be...

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Elmore
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 02:01 PM

Greg F., More than likely, we'd be better off without any organised religion. Feels like it upsets folks more than it comforts them.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 03:15 PM

...Following the death of Savita, the Media blamed the fatality of Savita on Ireland's so called ban on abortion in Catholic Hospitlas. However, the third and final National inquiry found that this was not the case. The cause was identified to be medical negligence which led to a series of uncompleted checks and inadequate Procedures.

Nothing is ever black and ehite, apart from penguins, pandas and magpies, but I think that states the position pretty well. Neither Irish law nor church teachings prevented Savita receiving whatever treatment she neededs, even if that meant the termination of the pregnancy.

In the light of the apparent failure of medical staff involved to understand the legal situation appropriate action in making this clearer was seen as appropriate. As might be the position in any country in the face of medical staff failing to understood the law.
............

The suggestion that Catholics can be assumed to act in accordance with church teachings just is not true, for good or ill. For example, the fact that the Church is now firmly opposed to capital punishment seems to have very little impact on many American Catholics (though admittedly in the referendum on that in Ireland the death penalty was firmly ruled out as unconstitutional). A similar assumption in the case of Muslims would be recognised as part of the Islamophobic spectrum.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 03:36 PM

"worldwide, Christians are at present the most persecuted identifiable demographic.
If you mean are they the most obvious - of course they are, nobody has denied that.
On the contrary, I have taken some time to draw Keith (and your) attentions to just how persecuted Christians actually are - mainly by their own churches - Keith continues to deny this, now blaming the medical staff for the death of a young woman because of religious imposed laws - dare I ask how you feel about that?.
I don't believe that the persecution by Muslim extremist regimes (not Muslims) could hold a candle to that meted out wholesale and long-term to their own faithful, using that very faith as a means of persecution - but as you say, Christians are the most visibly numerous victims at the hands of Islamic fanatics at the present time.
I wouldn't know how to count heads to come up with a total for how many Muslims are being persecuted for not being Jewish, or how many former Yugoslavians suffered and died for not being Christian
Nor could I begin to guess how many people of all denominations are suffering persecution and death by regimes or even national powers with the full support of Churches - mainly Christian, to protect western oil interests, or those of logging firms or multinationals like Shell or Esso or Barclays Bank (all high level investors in terrorist states ruled by murderous despots).
All persecution, either by, in the name of, or with the support of any religion is downright evil and is, as far as I can see, condemned unconditionally by all here but Keith, who only wants to talk about the persecution of Christians by Muslims and so far has denied it happening to anybody else, totally absolving all Christian churches of any form of persecution..
I ask again, how do you feel about his stance on the church bearing no blame for laws in Christian countries, or his denials on their role in condemning women to death, (another name added (posthumously) to the list in Ireland tonight) or influencing governments in any way?
I wonder how you feel about suggestion that if we don't like the way a country is run we should move out (including, by his silence, the late Mrs Hallapanavar)?
I wonder if you feel like asking him why this doesn't apply to Christians being persecuted in Muslim countries?
Keith is an abomination who has put a great deal of time (though almost no effort) in defending atrocities throughout the world - so far with your support, usually by your silence with occasional gestured of defence.
I will be surprised to receive a clear answer to any of these - feel free to surprise me.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 04:29 PM

I should have thought your questions answered in my 2 previous posts, Jim. What are you still not clear about?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 06:04 PM

All persecution, either by, in the name of, or with the support of any religion is downright evil and is, as far as I can see, condemned unconditionally by all here but Keith,

We have actually had one member posting saying that most Christians deserved to be persecuted.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 06:14 PM

We have actually had one member posting saying that most Christians deserved to be persecuted

Get a life, or more to the point get a brain.

After all the persecutions "Christians"[sic] have inflicted over the millenia, just might be time that what goes around, comes around.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 07:42 PM

Precisely so. "They deserve to be persecuted".

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: bobad
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 07:51 PM

I suppose the same can be said of Americans.....generalize?.....who me?....nah.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 11:00 PM

Anyone fancy a chat about Christian persecution?

I was speaking to a guy from Uganda in the hotel bar here in Bangkok last night. I googled some of what he said just to be sure, as I had no idea.

A few years ago there was a contraception drive that was showing good results. Unwanted pregnancies down, especially for those who couldn't even feed themselves, STDs down in huge numbers, especially HIV+. The cost to the health care system in anti retro viral medicines down in the millions of US dollars worth etc etc.

Then came elections. Notwithstanding the ones wishing to make being gay a capital offence or the ones standing on making sex illegal for two years to make AIDS die out.   No. The ones that got in were the worst.

The American Christian Right in their abstinence ideas bankrolled enough politicians to stop the government funded contraception.

Starving babies, huge rises in STDs and no money to prevent them being fatal for thousands and thousands of people.

Christian persecution? Amazing the wicked things you do when you get Jesus to agree with your personality disorder.   Im sure other religions persecute whole countries but as Keith said, let's keep this thread about Christians eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Oct 13 - 01:29 AM

"I should have thought your questions answered in my 2 previous posts, Jim. What are you still not clear about?"
Apologies Mike, I cross posted with your last message - a re-occurring problem with my now self-imposed habit of letting my thoughts sort themselves out before I press the send button - still tend to knee-jerk though.
As you say, the problem is far from black and white.
Throughout my life the church has ruled supreme in countries like Ireland, particularly on subjects like abortion and contraception.
Over the last decade things have changed a little, most of these changes having been brought about by the clerical abuse revelations and on-going The Magdalene Laundries horrors.
The Hallapanavar case has forced the Government to tinker with the termination laws which were based on church teachings - a long way to go yet but a stumble in the right direction.
The situation in the South is still as described by the Family Planning Association statement (09 Oct 13 - 03:20 PM) the only way to obtain a termination of pregnancy is to prove that the life of the mother is at risk (a near impossible task) - we still have 1,000 women a year shipping themselves to Britain for terminations that have been legal there for half a century - but at least a teetering step.
It remains to be seen how the church and their Pro-Life (sic) fanatics will deal with the evolving situation.
The situation in the Six Northern counties remain as described.
Pregnancy termination is only one of the problems left by the legacy of church omnipotence.
I would still have to ship any of my children forty miles if I wished them to have a mixed or non-denominational education, and then, I they would have to cope with poor facilities and overcrowded conditions.
The church is well aware of how important education is in maintaining its grip, and, despite the child abuse scandals, is fighting tooth-and-nail to ascertain that things remain as they always have been, particularly with primary school education.
Those of my generation still remain committed to the church:
Not so long ago a victim of child abuse was booed out of church for protesting at the visit of a Bishop who was involved in those scandals.
The Government is footing a large part of the compensation costs to the victims who are successful in their legal action.
Two Magdalene Sisters involved in the Laundry scandal spoke on a radio interview, declared them and their fellow abusers totally innocent of all wrongdoings and described their victims as "the sweepings of the street".
Four wealthy denominations of nuns involved in the Laundries have refused to donate a penny towards compensating their victims.
To deny the effects of the church on peoples minds' and bodies, as is being done here, is shamefully and inhumanly dishonest, and if it were a widely held view it would guarantee the continuance of persecution and abuse - hopefully it is becoming confined to fanatics such as our own resident one.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Oct 13 - 02:59 AM

Keith, who only wants to talk about the persecution of Christians by Muslims

No. Just highlighting the victims not the perpetrators, who are not all of the same faith anyway and some of none (N Korea)

We had the same laws here well within my lifetime.
I imagine most countries did.
I would not impose my values on another culture.

I would welcome discussion of any denial of the right of belief, but not the various restrictions on abortion in different states.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Oct 13 - 07:06 AM

List of Countries where Abortion is illegal
Angola,
Central African Rep.Chad
Congo
Benin
Gabon
Guinea-Bissau
Kenya
Madagascar,
Mauritius,
Mauritania,
Senegal,
Somalia,
Uganda.
Afghanistan,
Iran,
Egypt,
Lebanon,
Libya,
Oman,
Syria,
United Arab Emirates
Yemen.
Bangladesh,
Myanmar,
Indonesia,
Laos,
Papua New Guinea
Philippines
Sri Lanka
Malta
Colombia,
Ireland
Brazil,
Guatemala,
Haiti,
Honduras,
Nicaragua,
Panama,
Venezuela,
Paraguay,
Dominican Republic
Chile,
El Salvador
Mexico
Sudan (r)
Cote d'Ivoire
Lesotho
Mali
Niger
Ta
- See more at: http://www.whichcountry.co/countries-where-abortion-is-illegal/#sthash.6waRK9g6.dpuf

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Oct 13 - 08:22 AM

"We had the same laws here well within my lifetime."
.,,.
Not quite clear to me what you refer to here, Keith. What 'laws'? and the 'same' as what?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Oct 13 - 08:40 AM

The English abortion law was only liberalised in 1968.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Oct 13 - 09:23 AM

So, the issue of abortion in different cultures is very interesting and would make a good thread.
This one is about people persecuted for their belief.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kelly-james-clark/christianity-most-persecuted-religion_b_2402644.html

Extract.
In early November, German Chancellor Angela Merkel declared that Christianity is "the most persecuted religion in the world." Although met with predictable criticism, Rupert Short's recent research report for Civitas UK confirms Merkel's claim -- we may not want to hear it, but Christianity is in peril, like no other religion. While this is a contest no one wants to win, Short shows that "Christians are targeted more than any other body of believers." Short is the author of the recently published Christianophobia: A Faith Under Attack. He is concerned that "200 million Christians (10 percent of the global total) are socially disadvantaged, harassed or actively oppressed for their beliefs."

Christianity is facing elimination in its Biblical homeland. Between a half and two-thirds of Christians in the Middle East have departed or been killed over the past century. Short attributes the intolerance and violence towards Christians to the rising Islamicization of Middle Eastern countries. Some of the oppression is government sanctioned and some government permitted; most is government ignored.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Oct 13 - 11:09 AM

They deserve to be persecuted

Not a question of "deserving" it - its a question of karmic destiny and/or not being surprised that its coming back to bite them in the ass, Kevin.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Oct 13 - 03:10 PM

So they deserve it.
They are to blame for ancient history.
Your Karma, as a white American, is to be enslaved or massacred, right Greg?
And as Musket said, their suffering and deaths are "hilarious."

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Oct 13 - 05:51 PM

Your Karma, as a white American, is to be enslaved or massacred, right Greg?

Wrong. My people were Quakers.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Oct 13 - 06:03 PM

Right.
You are a white American.
White Americans had slaves and massacred native Americans.
You deserve the same.
That is your karma, whatever.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Oct 13 - 06:06 PM

You are as much guilty of historical crimes as any dirt poor christian being murdered tonight.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Oct 13 - 06:15 PM

You are a white American.

Am I Keith? What makes you so sure?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Oct 13 - 09:13 PM

Actually there were Quakers actively involved in the slave trade at one point, for what it's worth - which is very little.

Hoever the notion that persecution of a minority in a distant part of the world has something to do with "karma" because people with the same religion have been guilty of something in previous times is nothing to with with any notion of 'karma' that I have heard of. It is of course very much part of the antisemitic tradition...

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket sans Clapton
Date: 12 Oct 13 - 12:04 AM

I find persecution hilarious?

Yep. That's me. Difficult to type with my cloven hoof but you being one of Jesus' s sunbeams, you exposed me.

Sorry Keith. You should have said. It isn't something to be ashamed of. Comes to us all if we live long enough. Medicines slow down the downward spiral and in the meantime, people will sympathise with your condition rather than dismiss you as a bit of a nutter. Nowadays you can live a long and otherwise healthy life with the advantage that increasing ignorance is increasing bliss. Lucky bugger.

Mind you, you had us fooled for a while. It was your sweeping attributes of Christians that got the klaxons honking if I'm being honest. Seeing Jim Carroll winning an argument was a smoking gun too. According to a family member's trick cyclist, failing to spot irony is a pointer. All starts adding up.

I'm sure the old biddies in your church will pray for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Oct 13 - 01:20 AM

Musket ~~ Your posts are getting more & more opaque & incomprehensible.

Once more, please, what are you on about?

For that matter, what are you on?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Oct 13 - 01:55 AM

"Persecution is awful. Christian persecution is hilarious."

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Oct 13 - 03:11 AM

I was fascinated with Keith's (well known) list of countries opposing abortion - another of his Damascene conversions maybe?
It confirms the fact that the practice of religion interference in the lives of citizens by the State is world-wide and most certainly not confined to one particular brand - Christianity being up there with the good 'uns.
Even when religious influence has faded into the background somewhat it remains a powerful force in the maintenance of the status-quo, always on hand to bless bombs and send our lads over the top should the necessity arise.
As I said - not just Christian persecution but persecution of us all by whoever wears the big hat and carries the curly stick.
I was reminded of a more subtle form of religious interference in my life yesterday on a visit to Limerick A&E.
Whenever you fill in a form here you are asked for your religion and I invariably reply "none" - which always appears on the screen as "not revealed".
Last time we were there Pat's (an Anglo-Scot atheist) ended up as "Catholic".
Not important, certainly not as the slaughter of one (any) group of believers by another (any) group of different believers - after all, who gives a toss where they ship off my 'immortal soul' when I've finished with it?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Oct 13 - 07:25 AM

You are surprised that in a country where the great majority of people want a Catholic school, that there are not so many non-Catholic schools?
Would it surprise you to know that the Pope is a Catholic Jim?

Hospitals everywhere ask your religion on their standard forms.

To describe that as any kind of persecution is to demean and denigrate the suffering and misery of victims of actual persecution.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Oct 13 - 08:00 AM

"To describe that as any kind of persecution is to demean and denigrate the suffering and misery of victims of actual persecution"
No Keith - to minimise and deny brainwashing from birth, church imposed and influenced laws which cause death and suffering is to attempt to corner the market on suffering on behalf of those you 'reckon, by those you 'don't reckon'
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Oct 13 - 08:40 AM

... there were Quakers actively involved in the slave trade at one point...

Absolutely true. And Dick Nixon called himself a Quaker, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Oct 13 - 10:50 AM

Have to say that despite my antipathy towards all churches the Quakers always struck me as the most humane and the ones least likely to shove a Christian tract up your nose before offering you a bowl of soup and a crust of bread.
I still remember with gratitude their hospitality, warm welcome and comfortable floor at the half-way point between Aldermaston and London on the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament marches in the early 60s - true practitioners of Christian charity as I understand the term.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Oct 13 - 10:52 AM

You insult your neighbours.
They are as capable as the "brainwashed from birth" Italians are of choosing or rejecting whatever laws they want.

They are not helpless, ignorant, superstitious, dupes and do not need the likes of you and me to tell them how they should live their lives.

They are not being persecuted.
The world's Christians are being persecuted.
To extinction.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Oct 13 - 11:24 AM

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/reviews/christianophobia-a-faith-under-attack-by-rupert-shortt-8274142.htm

Extract
Shortt's account of prejudice and killing puts paid to any notion that persecution of Christians is something that went out with the Romans and their lions. Whether in Middle Eastern countries like Iran, or in Indonesia or Pakistan, the Christians particularly at risk are those deemed guilty of apostasy: those people who have risked their livelihoods, even their lives, to convert from Islam. While the Qur'an does not say that apostasy is punishable by death, post-Qur'anic texts urge this.

As Shortt makes clear, violence against Christians is not exclusively the domain of extremist Muslims. In India, Hindus, often considered spiritually serene in the West, have been responsible for murdering Christians (Hindu extremists share a preference for burning Christians alive with their fundamentalist counterparts elsewhere). In China, there have been countless human-rights abuses of Christians by the ruling Communists, from confiscation of property to torture.

Shortt has done a remarkable job in compiling this book when so little attention has been given in the mainstream media to the plight of Christians, apart from the most high-profile cases. Even those of us who have reported on this persecution week by week over the past decade have not realised quite how vast a problem this is: Shortt's account reveals that Christians are oppressed in greater numbers than members of any other faith.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Oct 13 - 12:43 PM

The world's Christians are being persecuted.To extinction.

For their sins. And not half fast enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Oct 13 - 01:11 PM

Musket and Jim, I and I am sure others, would be interested in your opinion of Greg's position.
Would you distance yourself from such a statement?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 12 Oct 13 - 01:35 PM

Michael. I am on something. This thread. Either read all the posts to see I am replying to so done or shut up and put the kettle on. Your feigned ignorance doesn't make you look clever.

Keith. I make my views known without trying to figure the views of someone I know nothing about. If Greg said something about my posts, I would be curious, or if he said something I was curious about, I might. But just giving you someone else to take out of context either wilfully or, as I suggested, because you are going ga ga, no. Not interested in playing your silly little games. Persecution is bad enough, without one cult using their share as a tool to claw back unearned influence.

Even Michael is at it now. He usually has intelligence, but this is the third time he has started this childish " I don't know what you are saying (but I say it to make you look a prick anyway.)"

Persecution? Your bloody lot wrote the book.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Oct 13 - 01:36 PM

Just ignore Greg F. He is just a silly baby who

...only does it to annoy
Because he knows it teases.

Why what a pathetic little specimen he is, to be sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 12 Oct 13 - 01:57 PM

there is certainly great persecution of Christians in many countries, but " to extinction"- I doubt it. that may be the wish of extremists of some isms, and the likes of greg, but history has demonstrated that it don't work. it bounces back stronger.
" I will build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" Jesus.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Oct 13 - 02:38 PM

" I will build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it"

Hallelujah. Say amen, somebody.

However, the church Jesus was talking about is unrecognizable & nonexistant in the present world.

And there's no such thing as "hell", gates or no gates.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Oct 13 - 03:55 PM

there is certainly great persecution of Christians in many countries, but " to extinction"- I doubt it.

Pete, if you care to follow the links I have provided you will see that many Christian communities that have endured for a thousand years are indeed dwindling to extinction now as a direct result of murder and unrelenting persecution.

Musket, you have Greg's comment in the context it was made.
There is no reason for you not to give your opinion of it, unless you are ashamed to.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Oct 13 - 05:30 PM

This is pretty silly. Everyone apart from one person has repeatedly said that they think all persecution of religious minorities is a horrible think that should never be excused or tolerated.

It would be a very good idea if we drew a line under this thread. If anyone wants to carry on a discussion or a diatribe against the failings of any particular religious tradition, or of members of that tradition all of them, whether they are Muslims, Christians or whatever, it is the easiiest thing in the world to start up another thread directed to that. It would perhaps take as much as of twenty seconds to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Oct 13 - 05:52 PM

Everyone apart from one person has repeatedly said that they think all persecution of religious minorities is a horrible think

Two people.
Musket said that the persecution of Christians is "hilarious."
Greg says that they deserve persecution and they are being persecuted to extinction "not half fast enough."

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Oct 13 - 06:36 PM

And Jim denies that there is any particular issue of Christian persecution.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Oct 13 - 07:14 PM

Enough, surely...

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Oct 13 - 11:16 PM

Absolutely, Kevin.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Oct 13 - 11:31 PM

Or perhaps "Amen" would be more appropriate.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Oct 13 - 12:02 AM

Whenever I have got fed up with a thread, I simply refrain from opening it any more. I suggest, Kevin & BWM, that you try that simple remedy for your ennui with this one, as some people would obviously prefer to continue with it. Why be so prescriptive?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Oct 13 - 12:42 AM

Can't you sleep either, Michael?
Not to worry, the Japanese Grand Prix is on BBC1 in a few minutes.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Oct 13 - 02:58 AM

We are not overburdened with BS threads just now.
Soon there will be none.

Are you not curious to see if musket and Jim are prepared to disown Greg's views?

Musket has stated that to hold the views I do I must have lost my mental faculties.
Most here think my views quite reasonable and normal.
I am not happy to let that insult stand.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Oct 13 - 03:46 AM

"We are not overburdened with BS threads just now.
Soon there will be none".

RESULT!

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket again
Date: 13 Oct 13 - 03:53 AM

Go and have a lie down then.

Just for you, I will repeat what I said, and this time ensure the context of the word hilarious is obvious enough for someone who is losing his mental faculties.

The concerted efforts recently by Christians to claim their persecution is a special case is hilarious. It is very obvious that trying to link bloody atrocity in some countries with falling social influence in this one is the aim. To think normal educated people will somehow alter their dismissal of dismal superstition because some persecution is aimed at one particular cult is hilarious.

We have so called Christians, Keith amongst them, saying they can pick and choose the bits they like but then decry rational people for wanting to make use of the tradition aspects such as weddings, christening sand funerals. We have others, such as pete who are genuinely religious but will always find their outlook ignored, challenged or ridiculed. At least pete anticipates this, he sees this as part of the deal.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Oct 13 - 08:41 AM

"Are you not curious to see if musket and Jim are prepared to disown Greg's views?"
I, like Mike, am bored (and in my case) sickened by this thread
You have distorted Musket's meaning, I don't for one minute accept Greg's statement as it stands and I very much doubt he does, but even if he does it doesn't come anywhere near the dishonesty and inhumanity you have displayed here and on countless other threads.
I have stated my own position clearly; I have no problem whatever with any religion; my life has been tied up with practicing, honest and sincere Christians from birth - my friends and a large number of my family are Christians; why on earth should you even have to ask.
I understand fully where Greg is coming from - if were are in any way typical of Christians I would understand why he feels it necessary to make his remark.
You represent everything I believe to be evil in so-called Christians, your inhumanity, your dishonesty, your mealy-mouthed hypocrisy, your deliberate avoidance of the suffering brought about by an omnipotent Church which has always sided with the establishment against the well-being of the faithful... absolutely breathtaking!
You don't even have the quality of consistency - you side unswervingly with terrorist states who carry out their atrocities supposedly in the name of their religion, yet you mouth support for some of the most dangerous Anti-Semites Britain has ever produced - at the time Jews were being herded into extermination camps - your reason - this particular breed of Anti-Semite happened to be British.
The only reason for even responding to your on-going bigoted vomit it toy allow you to dig yourself in even deeper that you already have into your extremist pit - you seem to have reached the lowest but I dare say you'll prove me wrong in that.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Oct 13 - 08:57 AM

Greg said, "The world's Christians are being persecuted.To extinction.
For their sins. And not half fast enough."
He previously said that they "deserved" it.

Nothing ambiguous about that.

You have distorted Musket's meaning,

No I have not.
Here is the whole post

Musket evolving slowly - PM
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 06:53 AM

Ah. The deconstruction of the word laugh.

Wondered what your next distraction would be.

Persecution is awful. Christian persecution is hilarious. Why? Because it is about as much a topic as persecution of people with an odd number of moles on their arse.

If you started a thread about people being persecuted for their belief you would draw intelligent responses I suppose but your agenda is loud and clear. Pointing and laughing is about you, not the people killed and maimed whom you see as fodder to push a sectarian point.

This is about relevance of one cult as opposed to others to society, not counting the baptism certificates of victims of hate. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Oct 13 - 09:24 AM

Can't see what your problem is with Greg's statement - you have said exactly the same thing yourself
Irish people don't have to live under Church imposed rules - they voted for them - their own fault
Mrs Halappanavar refused a church banned life saving operation - her own fault - they could have moved back to where they came from.
I don't like Irish laws imposed by the churches influence - I chose to live here.
What's the difference?
What both of them wrote is ambiguous - what you wrote is not and it reflects everything you have said about humanity elsewhere - Jews, Palestinians, Gypsies, British Pakistanis, Syrian massacre victims, refugees.... you name it, humanity is shit to you - especially when it upsets the good and the great.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket defining hilarious
Date: 13 Oct 13 - 09:50 AM

Can you repeat my thread again and again Keith?

Perhaps one day you just might read it....

Just catching up on the periodicals in the post whilst I have been away. The Week has reprinted an article from the previous week's Observer by John L Allen Jr (with a name that like he can only be an emissary from Dumbfuckistan) all about Christian persecution. A previous Archbishop of Canterbury was on the radio a while ago saying we persecute Christians in The UK.

Is the point of the exercise to keep maliciously pointing out atrocities and comparing them to increasing irrelevance in a modern free thinking society?

I find such comparisons abhorrent, disgusting and below any moral value most humans exhibit. When you next get to pick and choose which bits of Christianity are in fashion, can you quietly drop the trait of using any far fetched story to scare people into stopping questioning your cult?

Also, as you like asking me to answer any questions, here's one for you. Many Christians believe. They have belief. As your issues with your so called faith can't even get beyond the first sentence of the first book of the bible, under what terms do you call yourself a Christian? And how does that distinguish you from any normal person who doesn't see themselves as a Christian?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Oct 13 - 10:49 AM

Throughout this thread Keith has insisted on the total innocence of the Christian church regarding persecution.
He has mouthed meaningless mealy-mouthed and uncannily church-like platitudes of sympathy for the Clerical rape victims, yet he has never once condemned a religious institution that can house such monsters
Nor has he uttered one single word of condemnation of the churchmen who acted as their accomplices, not only refusing to expose them but actively participating in their crimes by allowing them to continue to hold office in parishes where their criminal activities unknown.
No word on the leadership of the most powerful Christian Church in the world who still refuses access to documents which would make clear the suffering of rape victims.
If the church is so ineffectual and has no say in Government, why have so few child rapists been brought to book for their crimes?
Why has there never been on accomplice to these crimes tried - or even accused of complicity, other than by victims who have been
He has had pointed out the extreme brutality of the Magdalene Laundries where young women suffered conditions akin to slavery and extreme brutality - not even a word of acknowledgement - no word on the contemptuous attitude still being displayed towards their victims.
The Industrial Schools such as Ferns and Letterfrack, where young men suffered similar conditions - nothing.
The boast of the Jesuits that if they were given access to a seven-year-old child's mind they would produce a "lifelong Christian" - not a single word - an open confession of brainwashing - 'pure imagination'.
What is "laughable" is the idea that anybody who had defended and denied these crimes at great length should demand that we express sympathy for the Christian victims of persecution and keep silent on those who have suffered horrifically at the hands of the Christian church - now that I do find hilarious!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: bobad
Date: 13 Oct 13 - 12:29 PM

Yeah and Christians were thrown to the lions by the Romans and not a word about that by Jimbo.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket concerned
Date: 13 Oct 13 - 12:45 PM

Ah well that's cruelty. Lions thrive best on a diet of ruminant animals. Omnivores such as Christians aren't good for them, as their gut cannot easily digest the protein overload from creatures that eat meat themselves.

But, here in the UK, Christian persecution is more muted than some places. It is confined to persecuting gays, women and people of other faiths. Oh, choirboys, altar boys and vulnerable people who turn to clerics for help, those as well.

There are of course, instances, many of them, where people are being persecuted for being Christian. But our devout brethren on these threads aren't really addressing that, even when they refer to them. They are a carrier tool for trying to make normal people feel feel guilty for not letting them influence society as they used to.

Thank Clapton.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Oct 13 - 01:05 PM

Clerical rape victims, yet he has never once condemned a religious institution that can house such monsters
Nor has he uttered one single word of condemnation of the churchmen

I have utterly condemned such abominations many times on the many threads about it.

This thread is about persecuting people for their belief.
Why are you demanding we discuss it on this thread Jim?
It is utterly irrelevant to the subject!

Throughout this thread Keith has insisted on the total innocence of the Christian church regarding persecution.
Not true Jim.
You lie.
Not once did I.
As usual you revert to making shit up when you have nothing else to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Oct 13 - 01:11 PM

under what terms do you call yourself a Christian?

Ask me on another thread Musket.
You know so little about what you mock.
You are very ignorant indeed.
No shame in being ignorant about Christian belief, but it makes you look so stupid when you rant about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Oct 13 - 01:30 PM

You have not answered one point I have made -
You have never once acknowledged the persecution and beating of children as being the responsibility of the church
You have never acknowledged the role of the church in the enlanevnet of young women or in the long term assault of residents of the industrial schools
You have mouthed sympathies for abuse victims yet you have never once even discussed the role of the church - from top to bottom - in those abuses
You continue to deny the influence of the church over entire populations even though every single individual to have cone into contact with the catholic Church is well aware of that influence and even the church itself boast about it.
You have not made one single reference to the facts you have been presented with.
It is you who have nothing to say - you have not produced one single piece of evidence to back up your extremist and bigoted declarations and you have even given up drying to defend your ideas.
The only reason I can see for you to continue behaving the way you do is to gain some sort of attention you seem not to be getting elsewhere.
Prove me wrong in anything I have just written.
You keep claiming "this is not about me" - it certainly is about your disgustingly totally unqualified and inhuman outlook on life.
Get another hobby
You really are the pits.
I do not lie - show me where I have

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Oct 13 - 01:56 PM

you have not produced one single piece of evidence to back up your extremist and bigoted declarations

It is a lie that I have made any "extremist and bigoted declarations"

If it is not a lie, produce one.
Choose a really extreme and seriously bigoted one if you can.
Like Greg's!

I have produced copious evidence that Christians are being persecuted far beyond anything experienced by any other faith.

It is true I have chosen not to discuss clerical abuse again.
I have done so on appropriate threads, but this one is about denial of the right of belief.

You continue to deny the influence of the church over entire populations
No. I never have.
I have pointed out that grown ups are quite capable of overcoming that influence if they choose to.
Italy did.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Oct 13 - 02:20 PM

I don't for one minute accept Greg's statement as it stands

Ah, but then Jim - you're not one of those literalists- in "iterpreting" the "bible" or anything else.......

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket pissing himself laughing
Date: 13 Oct 13 - 03:41 PM

Don't confuse lack of understanding with refusing to understand. I refuse to understand the righteousness of one cult slagging off others or lack of cult. I refuse to understand why society has always listened to the shit spewed out by clerics in order to support their more temporal masters.

I refuse to be thick or ignorant on the basis of asking why religion should be of any relevance to normal people. I refuse to be thick or ignorant because I noticed the real aim of threads such as this.

I refuse to believe or have belief on the basis of not believing the bible.

So.... What was it that allows you to point and laugh at me for? Not being a fucking Christian or not respecting hypocrisy?

The days of superstition are largely over, hence the rise of fundamentalism in all religious cults as a rearguard action by those wicked old men who will lose their influence and cushy number. Th only laws anyone can abide by in a democracy are those achieved by consensus and debate. That's your imaginary friend out for a start.

By the way, what if I asked you on this thread rather than another? You call yourself a Christian and say Christians are being persecuted. Sounds the ideal thread to me.

I'll just put the kettle on. This will be interesting....

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Oct 13 - 05:31 PM

I do not just say they are being persecuted, I put up screeds of evidence for it.
Do you deny it Musket?

I do try to be a Christian Musket.
What is it to you?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Oct 13 - 06:19 PM

A "Christian"[sic] musket. That about sums it up, for all the "Christian"[sic] war mongering thru the several millenia.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Oct 13 - 07:22 PM

Isn't there supposed to be some kind of ban on personal abuse on the Mudcat?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Oct 13 - 03:06 AM

Jim,
I do not lie - show me where I have

Well, that is a big one for a start.
Just yesterday.
"Throughout this thread Keith has insisted on the total innocence of the Christian church regarding persecution."

Not true Jim.
Not once did I.

"you have not produced one single piece of evidence to back up your extremist and bigoted declarations"

It is a lie that I have made any "extremist and bigoted declarations"

If it is not a lie, produce one.

I have produced copious evidence that Christians are being persecuted far beyond anything experienced by any other faith.


"You continue to deny the influence of the church over entire populations"
Lie. I never have.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Oct 13 - 04:11 AM

I really don't intend to take this any further with you - you have denied outright that the Church has had any influence in the making of any laws and have put it down as "being afraid to say no to the priest"
You have denied that it has any influence in the maintenance of ancient termination laws and blamed the medical staff for "errors" despite the fact that a simple operation could save lives.
You have refused to comment on the role of the church in the abuse, Magdalene and Industrial School horrors - apparently passing them off as blameless occurrences.
Nowhere have you accepted a link between injustices and atrocities with church influence, on the contrary, you have denied that such an influence exists.
You have suggested that the victims of those injustices should piss off and live somewhere else if they are not prepared to put up with them.
Throughout, you have refused to comment on the Churches' control of childrens' education and spiritual guidance almost from birth, and its demand that that control remains.
There is no need for me or anybody to "prove" anything - it just takes a scroll up this thread to substantiate anything I have written - you've said it all over and over again.
As I said, find another hobby that you're good at - you've made an utter hames at the last few you've put your hand to on this forum, especially over the last few months.
Now - back to the real world.
I remember hearing a discussion on the radio at the time of the fall of the Shah, when a contributor said that the world could now look forward to an increasing number of 'Holy Wars' now that his "stabilising influence" had been removed.
Someone else commented that this had always been the case and that religion had been the main cause of wars, atrocities and injustices throughout history, Christianity being one of the leading contenders.
The greatest threat to world peace today is a religious one and while Islam extremism is receiving the most attention at present it isn't by any means on its own - it only needs a peep at what is happening in the Middle East, with one of the contenders now possessing full Nuclear capability and another coming up fast on the inside track.
Backing one dog against another in this lethal race, as always happens in these discussions, is to miss the essential point - religion and politics is a toxic mix and supporting one side against the other only allows the boys to go on playing with their toys.
Don't know about you lot, but I'm far too old to go digging fall-out shelters in the back garden.
DAMN THEM ALL - NO CHURCH SHOULD EVER HAVE A SAY IN NATIONAL OR INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS WHIC AFFECT US ALL - IT IS NOT THEIR JOB. any more than it is the job of any individual member of this forum to tell us what we should and should not be discussing BTW
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Oct 13 - 04:19 AM

Jim, this thread is about persecuting people for their beliefs, and the particular suffering of Christians where they are a minority.

That is why I will not talk about all that other shit.

Start some threads on those subjects or reopen some old ones.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket shaking his head
Date: 14 Oct 13 - 05:13 AM

The Church of England issue a request to their members to push for relevance, moan about being sidelined by society and try to claw back their once influential position. One way, according to guidance issued back in June to diocese offices, is to point out the suffering in the real sense wherever Christians are the minority cult and somehow use that as a way to stop people questioning them here.

There have been instances of this since. Members of The lords claiming that gay marriage was tantamount to Christian persecution. The laity in the bishops debate saying forcing women to be eligible for the top jobs is Christian persecution.

Starting threads such as this one fits into the mould wonderfully.

Why the word "Christian" in the title Keith? What was wrong with pointing out where one cult oppresses another, regardless of flavour? Why the particular emphasis on Christians? The coverage is part of an effort to gain more influence in an increasingly secular society.

Is a society that doesn't want to give religions privilege a threat? Isn't guaranteed freedom to follow your faith enough? Is it so bloody important to play the persecution card to get normal people to stop marginalising the ancient undue influence religion has had?

Enjoy your faith. Nobody is stopping you. But nobody is linking bloody atrocity to empty pews. Except those who see well adjusted people as a threat.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Oct 13 - 05:23 AM

I opened this thread two and a half years ago in response to a report on the level of persecution suffered by Christian communities.
I reopened it in response to another.
I quoted Angela Merkel a few days ago.
She is neither CofE nor Catholic.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Oct 13 - 05:33 AM

German Chancellor Angela Merkel declared that Christianity is "the most persecuted religion in the world."

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Oct 13 - 06:25 AM

"That is why I will not talk about all that other shit."
Your prerogative - mind your own business that people want to put all religion into perspective rather taking your "up our side" approach.
Go and open your own thread and put up a "keep off the grass" notice if you want it to be populated by nodding dogs" - and go and look at the few 'Mudcat' rules there are - you are not a director of discussion, just 'one of the ants', same as the rest of us.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Oct 13 - 06:56 AM

Yes.
A lot of people here "want to put all religion into perspective" rather than discuss people being tortured and killed because of their faith.

They especially do not want to know that the victims are overwhelmingly Christians.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Oct 13 - 08:20 AM

"That is why I will not talk about all that other shit."
Your prerogative - mind your own business that people want to put all religion into perspective rather taking your "up our side" approach.
Go and open your own thread
.,,.
In fairness, Jim ~~ Keith opened this thread; so I can't quite see what you mean by enjoining him to 'open [his] own thread': when that is precisely what he did ~~ THIS ONE!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Oct 13 - 11:38 AM

...discuss people being tortured and killed because of their faith...

Whilst ignoring people tortured and killed BY the various "faiths" including "Christianity"[sic], yes?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 14 Oct 13 - 01:19 PM

Ok Keith. Merkel said it too. And as you said, she isn't CofE or Catholic.

You felt it relevant to point out what she isn't. After all, you are saying she must be objective then?

She does after all think about matters concerning Christians considering she is leader of the Christian Democrats.

I know you think I'm thick but if you wish to insult the intelligence of everybody, try not to be so shallow eh?



(That ok mudelves?)

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Oct 13 - 03:06 PM

extremist and bigoted declarations"

I couldn't see anything in any of Keith's posts on this thread remotely matching that declaration, Jim. It's a long thread so I could have missed something I suppose. Perhaps you could indicate one.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Oct 13 - 04:15 PM

"In fairness, Jim ~~ Keith opened this thread"
Threads are like children Mike - they have to be allowed to make their own way once they leave home.
Keith is the only member of this forum who persistently attempts to steer threads into his comfort zone - it has now become a major part of his contribution.
It is ludicrous to suggest that we can't discuss why religious persecution takes place on a thread like this.
I'll pull out a thread where he persistently complained about "thread drift" and when he drifted away himself and was challenged on it he replied "thread drift happens".
It is a form of censorship to attempt to restrict discussion in any shape or form
Mac
Don't agree - suggest you read through some of his contributions - not prepared to "thread drift" in that direction here for fear of the rap on the knuckles I would undoubtedly receive!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Oct 13 - 07:10 PM

It's a very long thread. I've read a lot of it, more especially the posts since it was revived in the wake of last months horrible atrocity in Peshawar, in which 85 churchgoers were killed, and I didn't see anything fitting those words of yours.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket between courses
Date: 14 Oct 13 - 07:15 PM

Are those being persecuted mainly Christians? Is there any proof for this claim? I see a lot of highlighting it as an issue but most of that referred to in this thread fails to highlight religious persecution per se.

Why is that?

Why do balanced articles 1) point out persecution in the name of Christianity and 2) fail to attract the attention of those pushing the aims of the thread?

Hilarious. I would have a far more stimulating and interesting time listening to the young ladies on the TV channels that only come on late at night. Oh! is that the time?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 02:50 AM

Don't agree - suggest you read through some of his contributions - not prepared to "thread drift" in that direction here for fear of the rap on the knuckles I would undoubtedly receive!

You have my blessing to go ahead Jim.
I already invited you to produce one. Remember?

Musket, you suggested this was a CofE plot.
That is why I mentioned Merkel.

I have linked to lots of evidence that persecution is a particular issue for Christians.
No-one has put up a single thing that in any way challenges that fact.
Now would be a good time for it Musket.
What do you have?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 04:01 AM

Musket: It was Keith who OP'd this thread with a specific title. Because he tries to deal with the phenomenon subsumed by that title, and not with comparable ones regarding other demographics with which he chose explicitly not to engage, you say he is drifting, or failing to get to grips with the problem.

But it is in fact you who are doing those things. If the category "Christian Persecution", the specific title of this thread, is not broad enough to suit your notions, then start your own thread on persecution in general. But it's no good denouncing a thread, or its OP, for not doing what they quite explicitly never set out to do. It's just silly; and obstructive; and deflective.

And Jim: I know threads, like children, escape their progenitors and go their own way. So what the hell's the use of constantly enjoining the person who originated this one to originate another, presumably with some strange faith that it will be immune from such strayings & deflections 2nd time round?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,musket playing your game
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 04:05 AM

So be grateful.

Persecution is a particular issue for Christians.

There.

Where Christians are being persecuted.

Persecution is a particular issue for Muslims.
Where Muslims are being persecuted.

Persecution is a particular issue for Sikhs.
Where Sikhs are being persecuted.

Persecution is a particular issue for Buddhists.
Where Buddhists are being persecuted.

Persecution is a particular problem for gays, trade unionists, atheists, supporters of freedom and democracy, victims of rape carrying a foetus, people with mental health issues...... where persecution is a problem.

Get it into your thick skull that persecution is wrong and to highlight one particular brand as being a particular issue is sickening to say the least. You are never going to get anything done about one type of persecution by elevating it. Persecution itself is wrong. Attempts by the Anglican worldwide community to highlight it just serves to piss off other cults and normal people under persecution.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 04:28 AM

"I already invited you to produce one. Remember?"
I don't want the blessings (or prayers) of a measly-mouthed Christian - or any other particular brand of hypocrite.
You have had my examples of your extremism over and over again
You deny that a woman who died due to religiously enforced rules was a victim of those rules, you blame the medical staff (errors aside - she could have had a termination - but was refused one) and you implicitly suggest that she and her husband were to blame for choosing to live in a country and not moving away - was this not your suggestion and is this nor the obvious conclusion of your cowardly silence on the death of Sarita Halappanava.
That is extremism - if you choose to live in a country, you become responsible for its oppressive laws or you move somewhere else.
You have told me the same thing - it is my choice to live in a country with oppressive laws - if you don't like them, move out.
You have throughout this argument denied that the church has any influence on the laws of the countries that are described as "Christian/Catholic" yet you produce a list of countries refusing termination of pregnancy - the majority of those are Christian countries - you refuse even to acknowledge this, let alone comment on the inevitable conclusion that these laws are religion inspired.
You blame the victims of these laws themselves for not removing the politicians fro office or from (most disgusting of all) "being afraid of saying "no" to the priest".
The German Jews who perished in the camps where themselves to blame for their own fate for remaining in Nazi Germany - would I have that right?
In the past you have even put the continuing potential and actual religious based conflict in the six Northern Counties of this country down to "the actions of bored children"
Your extremism here is part of the same crusade you have mounted on every other thread - you have fought tooth and nail to keep us from discussing the causes of religious persecution and with us to wail and want only to discuss the persecution of Christians by Muslim extremists.
Elsewhere you have refused to discuss the causes of the rise to power of Muslim extremism - arms sales, religion-based land seizure, trade with seizure despotic feudal rulers, refusal to help a people being slaughtered
Your extremism is based on your hatred of all Muslims - your statements echo those of organisations who have made the lives of immigrants to Britain both miserable and dangerous - you are now noted for this fact on this forum - your one claim to fame
Now where did I put those tea-leaves - You will now tell me I am lying
The conclusion of all these subjects is to one degree or another the same - give any church an inch of power and you open the doors to religious abuse - it is the built-in inevitability of all religions that are allowed and encouraged to overstep their spiritual role.
Your persistent attempts to prevent us from discussing this fact is an open display of your extremism.   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 04:52 AM

Musket, I agree with your last post, and would welcome and join discussion of all persecution on grounds of belief.
If it is true that one group is suffering significantly more than others, I think it reasonable to comment on it.
That would not be to denigrate concern for other persecutions.

When Geldorf and Live Aid focused on the starvation in Ethiopia, did you feel it wrong to say that Ethiopia had the worst famine, because there was starvation elsewhere too?

In recent years, persecution of Christians exceeds all others and is driving their communities to extinction in many lands.
Why must I not refer to that Musket?
Is that true of any of the other groups you listed?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 05:28 AM

Somebody further up the thread (possibly MGoH, I'm not certain) made the entirely sensible comment that, in most cases, persecution is more a matter of being in a minority and having a different culture, than worshipping in a different way.

Sunnis and Shiites share a religion, but interpret it differently, and whichever group is a minority is persecuted by the other.

Muslims are persecuted in Christian countries, and vice versa, based upon being a minority.

Specious argument about religious reasons descends to the level of inanity when the same poster who is decrying the persecution of a number of minority populations, is at the same time suggesting that, in Eire, anybody who doesn't agree with the way the country is run could, and should, get out and live elsewhere.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 05:48 AM

suggesting that, in Eire, anybody who doesn't agree with the way the country is run could, and should, get out and live elsewhere.

Not what I said at all Don.
Eire is a free, democratic and secular country.
The Catholic Church has no role in its law-making (unlike the Anglican Church in UK)

In no country does every law suit every citizen or foreign guest.
Choices have to be made.
Choosing somewhere else is one.
Democratic processes to make changes are another.

Demanding they change their country to be more like ours is just colonialism.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 05:54 AM

suggesting that, in Eire, anybody who doesn't agree with the way the country is run could, and should, get out and live elsewhere.

How about "In Eire, the people choose how the country is run.
In Eire, anybody who doesn't agree with the way the country is run can live elsewhere if they feel strongly enough."

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 06:07 AM

"In Eire, anybody who doesn't agree with the way the country is run can live elsewhere if they feel strongly enough"
Not sure what you mean but how about 'in any country whose laws contain great injustices, you root out the causes of those injustices and uproot them at the source' in the cases of religion dominated countries, the churches who indoctrinate the beliefs into children from birth.
You have not responded to one of my points again, not even to deny them.
Am I to assume that all German Jews who went to the death camps were to blame for not living elsewhere?
THis thread is entitled Christian persecution
You have persistently attempted to restrict it to persecution of and not by Christians.
You do this in order to use the suffering of one religion to inflict suffering on the faithful of another religion
You are a bigoted extremist - end of story
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 06:07 AM

I had no idea that Christian groups were badly persecuted around the world. If it's true that Christians are one of the most intensively - or indeed the most intensively - persecuted religious groups worldwide I'm surprised it hasn't captured the serious attention of our media.

I'm afraid the thread is very long and I'd rather not trawl through the infighting, perhaps Keith or others interested in the topic would be willing to link to some worthwhile articles and news pieces discussing the subject matter of the thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 06:29 AM

You have persistently attempted to restrict it to persecution of and not by Christians.

Not true.
Any and all religious persecution should be discussed here.

What has Ireland's democracy got to do with it?
In Eire, the people choose how the country is run.
In Eire, anybody who doesn't agree with the way the country is run can live elsewhere if they feel strongly enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 06:49 AM

CS, these were all given by me as links just since the thread reopened.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/10264499/The-almost-unremarked-tragedy-of-Christians-persecuted-in-the-Middle-East.html

http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/between-errands-april-thompson/2013/sep/26/persecution-against-christian-increases-many-parts/

http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/between-errands-april-thompson/2013/sep/26/persecution-against-christian-increases-many-parts/

http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/high-tide-and-turn/2013/aug/2/putin-world-leaders-should-unite-end-anti-chri

http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9041841/the-war-on-christians/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kelly-james-clark/christianity-most-persecuted-religion_b_2402644.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/reviews/christianophobia-a-faith-under-attack-by-rupert-shortt-8274142.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 07:08 AM

Thanks for flagging them up again, I'll take a look later.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 07:45 AM

Jim.
how about 'in any country whose laws contain great injustices, you root out the causes of those injustices and uproot them at the source'

My comment was about Ireland.
Please clarify exactly what you would root out in Ireland, and what you think the Irish would say to you about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 08:16 AM

"Any and all religious persecution should be discussed here.
"
Then why have you persisted in insisting that we discuss only the persecution of Christians (as pointed out by MtheGM)) and accused those of us who wish to discuss the reasons for all religious persecution as guilty of thread drift?   
Your repetition about Irish democracy and total failure to respond to the influence of the Church in any religion based country is an indication that you mean to go on with your now farcical attempts to use the religious persecution of one group as a weapon to persecute another.
All your links refer to the persecution of Christians, mainly by Muslim extremists, you have denied all examples of persecution by Christian you have been given as being unimportant or not true - what's your point - you've just confirmed mine?
And your silence indicates that you believe that those Jews who 'chose' to remain in Nazi Germany when they were in a position to go somewhere else were responsible for their own fate.
Have a nice day

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 08:36 AM

you have denied all examples of persecution by Christian

No I have not.
You just have not produced any recent examples, and I do not regard Ireland's choice of laws as any kind of persecution.

Now please tell us what you want to root out of Ireland Jim!
Catholics?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket between courses
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 10:24 AM

Interesting debating point to be fair regarding Live Aid and highlighting Ethiopia.

I don't think it is a comparison though. We are aware of many persecution issues and my beef remains that highlighting one cult regardless of type or location betrays a not well hidden agenda.

Live Aid was after Bob Geldof and Midge Ure both saw a particular BBC news coverage of the then draught in Ethiopia. That gave them the focus. The original relief work emanating from Live Aid was carried out over a much larger geographical area, mainly the horn of Africa and a close family member was based in Eritrea for them.

I don't think the focus on the BBC footage being shot in Ethiopia was a selective focus, just happened to be where the story came from.

The reaction was far more widespread.

The only way it would be comparable would be if your original post was to look at the news stories concerning Christian persecution and use it as an example of persecution in general. Having just checked, you didn't and the Christian aspect remained as much your debating point as the persecution involved.

Hence my very strong reaction.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 10:34 AM

Was it wrong of me to start a thread about the horror of the war in Syria, when there is horror alsewhere in lesser wars?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 11:32 AM

"Now please tell us what you want to root out of Ireland Jim"
Not just Ireland - I want to see the influence of the church removed from the laws of every single country and the malevolent influence on the minds of the people where they are having a detrimental effect, which includes those on your list the majority of which are described as Christian.
Your denial of any such influences is here to be found and your response that "if we don't like them we should move somewhere else" can be equally applied to Christians suffering persecution at the hands of others - why make a special case for Christianity which has a centuries-old reputation for persecuting non or contradictory believers, and even Christian doubters - you've made the point clearly enough "accept it or go somewhere else"?
Your continually cowardly refusal to respond to my question makes your position on the Jewish victim of Nazism - they were willing participants in their own fate because they allowed it to happen.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 11:33 AM

If Christians or any other religious, ethnic, sexually oriented, differently abled (etceras) group are suffering significantly, it's entirely relevant to highlight that, here or anywhere. I'm quite puzzled at the degree of hostility this thread has seemingly generated. Maybe it's just a knee-jerk reaction to the OP rather than any special bigotry this forum harbours against Christians?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 11:48 AM

Bigotry towards Christians isn't the issue. The issue generally where religion is a debating point is that of using Christianity to justify more temporal views. The interesting point in this and contemporary threads is that of defining Christian.

I am left even further confused by what is meant by "As a Christian" or "Christians do / don't do..." The fully understandable pick n mix approach does serve to make the stance baseless outside of your personal Creed.

Which makes slurring rational people all the more distasteful.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: bobad
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 12:04 PM

Guest, CS

It's not so much anti-Christian bigotry that is on display as it is because of the fact that much of the anti-Christian persecution is being perpetrated by those who profess to be of the Muslim faith and that triggers a knee-jerk reaction by the usual mob who scream Islamophobia whenever attention is drawn to atrocities commited by Islamists.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 12:07 PM

your position on the Jewish victim of Nazism - they were willing participants in their own fate because they allowed it to happen.
.,,.
There is in fact just enough truth in that to make it an uncomfortable thought, Jim Many were just too slow to react until it was too late, or refused to take the developing situation seriously enough. Remember Mr Van Daan in the dramatic version of The Diary Of Anne Frank, screaming at his wife at one point, and denouncing her to all the others, "I could have been safe in America, but she wouldn't leave her bloody furniture!"

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 12:10 PM

knee-jerk reaction by the usual mob who scream Islamophobia whenever attention is drawn to atrocities commited by Islamists.

Ditto the knee-jerk reaction by the usual mob who scream 'Christian Persecution' whenever attention is drawn to atrocities commited by Christians[sic].

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 12:52 PM

I don't know who "the usual mob" are Greg F. but then I don't spend a lot of time here these days. As for the wrongs perpetrated in the name of Christ or by Christians, yes I'm well aware of those; including the hideous Catholic Church's corruption re: child abuse, including Mother Teresa's gig, and more, but still these people who are today suffering are suffering, and they don't deserve to be persecuted for their faith, whatever others have done in the name of it.

These folk being persecuted are from what I can gather mostly poor, previously colonised, and non-white, they are not the abusers here, but the abused.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 12:59 PM

There is in fact just enough truth in that to make it an uncomfortable thought"
I wonder if you followed the recent beautifully presented Simon Scharma series, the second (I think) of which covered the school of thought which advocated it was possible for Jews to live under Nazism?
But this in no way absolves the Nazis, any more than Keith's argument (I'm at a loss to come up with a better description for his persistent moronic repetition) that "if you don't like oppressive laws, move somewhere else".
I was brought up with the idea that if you don't like oppression you fight it, not piss off and leave your friends and neighbours to make their own way.
Nobody here is denying and certainly not supporting the persecution of Christians - it goes on and it's evil.
Keith is denying that persecution by Christian churches happens, both actually and by the implication that the church is ineffectual and it's influence is either unimportant or easily removable.
What has wrought the few small changes that have taken place have been brought about by the fact that its abuses have reached boiling point.
Keith's continuing refusal to acknowledge that the Magdalene Laundries, Industrial Schools and Clerical abuse are extreme examples of persecution by a Christian church is to support persecution - certainly not a 'first' for Keith.
We haven't even begun to discuss the Church's role in supporting some of the most murderous regimes in the world, and if Keith had his way he would rule it 'off topic' - fat chance!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 01:30 PM

"Nobody here is denying and certainly not supporting the persecution of Christians - it goes on and it's evil."

Fair enough Jim, I'm glad to see that's your stated position. It's a big thread as I said, and I probably missed a lot of pertinent content scanning through.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 03:48 PM

Not just Ireland - I want to see the influence of the church removed from the laws of every single country

OK Jim, so what specifically do you want rooted out of Ireland?
The Catholic Church, or all Catholics?

Either way you will have the Irish people against you.
Just who do you think you are to want to dictate how they should run THEIR country?

Keith is denying that persecution by Christian churches happens,

No I am not, but the laws a democratic, secular country makes for itself ARE NOT PERSECUTION!
Do you have any examples of actual persecution of a people for their belief by Christians?
I will denounce it at once.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 05:21 PM

Jim ~~ My point about the 1930s Jews was more for a sort of exemplary interest than to prove any specific point.

I quite admired some of Schama's programmes; & he managed mainly to be pretty objective: but thought that there was something of a negative agenda in the last one's failure to mention the assassination of Count Bernadotte, the blowing up of the King David Hotel, & the two hanged British sergeants ~~ all events of considerable significance, & great traumas to all of us at the time & since.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 06:36 PM

I have seen a lot of evidence of a profound disagreement between Jim and Keith, especially about legal situation in Ireland regarding abortion. But I cannot see that anything Keith has written in this thread about this amounts to "extremist and bigoted declarations".

It has to be recognised that the law and any government operates in the context of a constitution, and of two binding referendums that place strict restrictions on abortion law in Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 06:45 PM

I read today that the freedom foundation [a secular body, I understand] on collecting details of different countries , finds that those with Christian foundation rate the highest for personal freedoms for their populations, whilst muslim and communist rule are worse.
it is such restrictive countries that are less likely to tolerate criticism of its govt or religious rule than say , GB/USA, where dissenters can rant on about the system and Christianity ,secure in the knowledge that they wont be imprisoned, executed, or disappear all of a sudden.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 08:29 PM

The "Freedom Foundation", Pete? You mean the faux "think tank" launched by the U.S of A's own Bob Williams, Republican TeaParty ex-congressman, born-again idiot, anti-government lunatic and wholesale purveyor of bullshit?

Try again.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 09:13 PM

[In Ireland] the law and any government operates in the context of a constitution

Assuming that this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Ireland is correct as stated (a large assumption with Blog-O Paedia) it is evident that a great number of strictures enacted therein are due to the tenets of so-called "Christians"[sic] to the detriment of and discrimination against non-conforming elements of the population.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 10:26 PM

Like it or not, that's the Constitution, endorsed and amended from time to time by the Irish people.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 02:55 AM

Thank you for that appraisal McGrath.

This from Jim IS an extremist and bigoted declaration.

"In Eire, anybody who doesn't agree with the way the country is run can live elsewhere if they feel strongly enough"
Not sure what you mean but how about 'in any country whose laws contain great injustices, you root out the causes of those injustices and uproot them at the source' in the cases of religion dominated countries, the churches.."

You would root out the churches from Ireland in a bloodbath of persecution.
No wonder you object to this thread.

(You would also destroy the unique culture that you love Jim.)

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 04:35 AM

"The Catholic Church, or all Catholics?"
You obviously intend to continue your dishonest farce by either not reading what people write or deliberately misrepresenting the opinions of others.
You have no idea what the Irish people would or would not oppose, your entire input here has been a display of total ignorance of Catholics and Catholicism.
Given your having been totally discredited in everything you have claimed, I have been waiting for you to scurry into your usual bolt-hole "I'm no expert, just giving the opinions of those who are", - but as you've presented no 'expert evidence', obviously not an option.
I have said over and over again that I believe that all religious persecution is based on the inordinate power held by a Church that is prepared to abuse that power.
Until that grip is broken the abuse will continue - "religion and politics is a toxic mix" and the faithful are just as prone to religious persecution as are non-or-contrary believers.
If you can produce one single indication that I have suggested "Catholics" to be the problem rather than the Church, do so - I won't ask you to withdraw your accusation or apologise - you don't do the first and you have described apologising as "snivelling" elsewhere.
The revelations of the abuses of the Laundries, Industrial Schools and the Church protected Clerical rapes have loosened that grip.
The changes in the laws on pregnancy termination have been brought about by widespread protest.
The power of the church in Ireland is on the wane, mainly due to its own excesses - I hope to live long enough to see it confined to its rightful role of purely spiritual guidance willingly accepted and not forcibly drummed into people from birth.   
Those Church imposed laws remain unchanged in all the Christian churches on the list you were kind enough to provide for us.
Shamefully, you have not even had the decency to refer to the the now tried and proven church's role the institutional abuses and rapes, and you have denied that the Church is in any way to blame for primitive termination laws
You ask for examples of your extremism, you are given them - and you completely ignore those examples.   
Don't you dare try to talk down to me from the hole you have dug yourself into.
Mike;
I haven't see the last two Scharmer programmes in full yet - still waiting on the Sky box, but Martin Walker's mind-lingering account of the Holocaust covered some of the same points I put forward.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 04:43 AM

"No wonder you object to this thread"
By the way - I have never said I object to this thread - I object to your manipulating it as part of your on-going hate campaign.
You really are a shamelessly lying little twot
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 05:21 AM

Yet again, Jim: do realise that Keith OP'd this thread, quite manifestly to draw attention to one specific, indisputable, properly documented ongoing situation regarding one faith; which numerically surpasses any other similar instances at present. He has nowhere described this situation as unique, either historically or at present ubiquitously, or claimed that others should not be considered on their own threads; but that was obviously the topic he intended his thread to cover. Not every thread can cover every relevant instance, or we shouldn't be able, above the line, to have a thread on any folksong without dealing with the entirety of Roud!

You have introduced some other instances, which you will recall I agreed with you were equally iniquitous and did constitute a form of 'persecution'; but these were nevertheless, properly viewed, tangential to the main aim & intent of Keith's thread.

So it is a bit rich on your part, isn't it?, to accuse Keith of "manipulating" the thread.

Just ask yourself, in all honesty [if such a concept is not, as I sometimes fear, entirely foreign to your perceptions] --

just exactly who is doing any 'manipulating'?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 05:26 AM

one single indication that I have suggested "Catholics" to be the problem rather than the Church,

If there were no Catholic Church, there would be no Catholics!

You have no idea what the Irish people would or would not oppose,

I am sure that the Catholics would oppose the "rooting out" of their churches.
That is pretty extreme Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 05:27 AM

...and do please endeavour to respond, if you wish to do so, without any mention of pudenda, or facetious irrelevances about fairytale characters &c ~~ a once maybe marginally amusing leitmotif which has long-since become so threadbare as to have outworn any vestige of humour it might ever have possessed.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 06:04 AM

"If there were no Catholic Church, there would be no Catholics"
Further deliberate and extremely stupid distortion
Where have or has anybody ever suggested that there should be "no Catholic Church" or there should be a "rooting out"?
"Until that grip is broken the abuse will continue - "religion and politics is a toxic mix" and the faithful are just as prone to religious persecution as are non-or-contrary believers."
WILL YOU PLEASE STOP LYING
"Rooting out" is a pure invention on your part and placing it in inverted commas underlines your despicable dishonesty
I expect that you will ignore this fact as you continue to ignore all others.
"intent of Keith's thread."
Unless Maggie's desire to privatise everything including the air we breathe has extended its avaricious tentacles as far as Mudcat, this or any other thread on this forum is not the personal property of any single individual and no one has the right to demand that we discuss only the aspects that any individual demands we do.
I have long ceased to be surprised at your continual support of Keith's dishonest, undemocratic and reactionary outpourings, but just occasionally you manage to surprise.
Further welcome signs of the loosening of the grip of the Church here this morning.
There is to be a challenge mounted to the Constitution law that says that all seeking public office in Ireland must declare a belief in God.
Not so long ago Labour Eamon Gilmore, a stated atheist, sought legal advice on this matter and was informed that he was bound by Constitutional law to declare a belief in God.
A little more light at the end of the tunnel, it would appear.
Jm Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 06:11 AM

Jim.
"in any country (Eire) whose laws contain great injustices, you root out the causes of those injustices and uproot them at the source' in the cases of religion dominated countries, the churches.."

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 07:23 AM

Nobody is trying to say that a thread remains the property of its OP, Jim. But it is those who demand its extension or deflection into other aspects of its topic who are 'manipulating'. I still don't see how you, an arch drifter and *manipulator* into your own political obsessions of any thread you infiltrate, can accuse the thread's originator of 'manipulation'. Nobody is 'manipulating' but your obsessive pontifical pigheaded doctrinaire self, for heavens sake. Stop being so thick & evasive. You do yourself scant credit with these perpetual dishonest evasions and undeserved denunciations.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 08:58 AM

What a gulf there is between attacking the Catholic Church and Catholics who make it up, or between Islam and Muslims or between Judaism and Jews. It's a distinction that has constantly made by spokesmen for the EDL, or by other organisations with a similar agenda.

There is of course a legitimate distinction that can be made, but it is not an easy matter to draw the line. When the views of ordinary Catholics are dismissed as irrelevant because they have been corrupted by their exposure to church teachings, that line has been not merely crossed but eroded.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 09:57 AM

" But it is those who demand its extension or deflection "
Nobody has to "demand" anything, particularly permission to discuss the reasons for religious persecution on a thread entitled "Christion Persecution"
The "Churches" are not the people - those who worship in the churches are the faithful - the root of the injustices are the people who lay down the law, make the rules for the faithful to obey - unquestioningly.
You obviously have abandoned any attempts of conducting an honest debate - I suggest you **** off and take your poodle with you.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: bobad
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 10:31 AM

"I suggest you **** off and take your poodle with you."

There you go Mike, whenever he gets nailed this is the kind of shit he comes back with. I don't know why you waste your time with this a**hole, he is as doctrinaire as any religious fanatic and beneath contempt.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 10:43 AM

Like it or not, that's the [Irish]Constitution

Its not about liking or not liking, Kevin - its about the demonstrable fact that it contains obviously "Christian"[sic] overtones & provisions that result in the persecution of elements of the Irish population.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 01:47 PM

"More heat, less light" is an excellent saying to bear in mind in discussions such as this. Unfortunately that doesn't seem to accord with how some of the most articulate posters see it.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket with a suggestion
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 02:21 PM

For anybody actually interested in Christian persecution, I note that B&Q have an offer on at the moment in nails. Jewson seem to have the best price for decent 4x2 timbers.

If you are in the good old US of A, try your local hardware store, down the isle next to the soda thingy, if my watching old Happy Days re runs is anything to go by.










Just thought I'd try and drag the thread from absurdity and back to good old stupidity.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 04:36 PM

Ya ain't gonna make any sort of respectable cross outa 4x2's.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 06:09 PM

These days it appears that in Saudi Arabia you get beheaded before being crucified. Here's a story from Amnesty International about that

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 06:14 PM

Sounds like an act of mercy to me, Kevin, rather than dying by slow suffocation.

Or are we now going to digress to discuss capital punishment in all its forms??

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 06:58 PM

No, the point was crucifixion is still part of the modern world.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 07:59 PM

As Faulkner put it "The past is never dead. It's not even past."

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket between courses
Date: 17 Oct 13 - 03:32 AM

4x2 is just fine. Nail the planks to a wall and the Christian to the planks. Sorted.

The cost of keeping lions these days is prohibitive what with vet bills, permits etc plus ensuring their diet is at least 70% ruminant. Other than the serendipity of bagging the odd vegan, you need to feed four wildebeest for every Christian.

No. Stick to the B&Q option. Far easier.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Oct 13 - 04:14 AM

How those Syrian Christians will be laughing Musket.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Oct 13 - 04:17 AM

BBC today.
Laham told the BBC that more than 450,000 Christians out of a total population of 1.75 million had been displaced or left the country.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Oct 13 - 05:57 AM

"How those Syrian Christians will be laughing Musket"
"more than 450,000 Christians"
Methinks their laughter will be somewhat drowned out
"Flow of Refugees Out of Syria Passes Two Million"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Oct 13 - 06:37 AM

Of all Muslim countries, Christianity is most integrated in Syria.
Even the extremists there at the present time are identified as targeting Christians and Muslims who are "not really Muslims"!! so Christians cannot claim being particularly singled out for persecution - in fact, what persecution at present taking place in Syria is due to the fact that the 'Christian West' is happy to stand by and watch it happen (as long as it isn't done using chemical weapons).
Therefore, any persecution of Christians taking place at the present time is being facilitated by other Christians - get my drift?
Which reminds me, isn't reference to Christian Persecution in Syria indulging in "thread drift" - wonder what Ma - (whoops) Mike thinks?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Oct 13 - 07:01 AM

I can't see where Jim seems to get the notion that Keith or anyone is suggesting that the only people suffering religious persecution are Christians, or that that is the only religious persecution that matters , or that religious persecution is the only kind of persecution we should be aware of and try to end.

If those things were being suggested there would be reason to try to correct them. Perhaps there are some places where people are suggesting them. But not in this thread, or, so far as I am aware, on the Mudcat.

The evidence does seem to suggest that there is a particularly high level of persecution of Christian minorities in the world today. However whether in some kind of obscene league table of persecution Christians are at the top is not in itself that crucial, and hardly worth getting in a tizz about.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket between courses
Date: 17 Oct 13 - 07:23 AM

True. But a bit of a difference between being worth getting in a tizz about and whether getting in a tizz at all is the correct reaction.

The idea of a league table at all would be obscene and the thread seems to wish to highlight persecution based on which day you say your prayers.

So. On behalf of gay people in Uganda, Russia etc and on behalf of women in Ireland and indeed throughout the western world. ..

Pass me another bag of nails, I'm running low.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Oct 13 - 07:46 AM

I started a thread about the war in Syria because it is the worst war at this time.
I started a thread about Christian persecution because it is the worst persecution at this time.

I am not denigrating other wars or other persecutions.
No league tables.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Oct 13 - 08:04 AM

"No league tables"
And no evidence of specific Christian persecution - just general suffering due to malicious international neglect.
"I can't see where Jim seems to get the notion that Keith or anyone is suggesting that the only people suffering religious persecution are Christians"
Then why single out 450,000 Christians out of 2 million and why claim it to be Christian persecution (the subject of this thread, I'm told)when there is no evidence they are being maltreated no differently from the rest of the beleaguered population - give us a break Mac, it ain't rocket science!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Oct 13 - 08:50 AM

I have put up plenty of evidence that Christians are suffering significantly worse persecution than other faiths.

In Syria they were not persecuted under Assad.
I used the example because it was in the news today.
450 000 is more than a quarter of all the Christians in Syria.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Oct 13 - 09:01 AM

Of some 1.4 million Christians living in Iraq before the war, perhaps 400,000 — mostly the poor and the old — remain.

Many Iraqi refugees left to join the two million indigenous Christians of Syria. They now share their hosts' lot — persecution by the western-supported, Saudi-financed, Islamist-dominated Syrian rebels. Large areas of opposition-held Syria are now under sharia law. Saudi judges have appeared to administer it. Non-Muslims are only tolerated if they pay the jizya, the tax imposed on infidels. Priests are special targets. This is where a Syrian Catholic priest, Father François Murad, was murdered last month. He was not the first to die. A Syrian Orthodox priest, Father Fadi Haddad, was grabbed last December as he left his church to negotiate the release of a kidnapped parishioner. His body was found by the roadside, the eyes gouged out. Two higher-profile recent cases — if not high enough for the government or most of our press to notice — are those of the Greek Orthodox archbishop Paul Yazigi and the Syriac Orthodox archbishop Yohanna Ibrahim. They were seized near Aleppo in April, when trying to negotiate the release of kidnapped priests. Both archbishops are now presumed dead.
http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9006591/dont-expect-the-government-to-raise-its-voice-for-syrias-christians/

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Oct 13 - 10:10 AM

I'm afraid it is ridiculous to say that Christian minorities are not being specifically persecuted. That catholic church in Peshawar where 85 massgoers were killed and a couple of hundred injured wasn't targeted at random. And in Syria Christians are being specifically targeted. So are other religious minorities. As was the case in Iraq, the oppressive regime under attack is seen as having been less oppressive towards such minorities.

Specifically does not mean exclusively. It does not even mean in greaser numbers. If someone was to say that gypsies in Nazi Europe were not specifically targeted on the grounds that most of those murdered were Jews they would rightly be ridiculed.

In places as far apart as Pakistan and Nigeria Christian minorities are being directly and specifically targeted. Real people murdered in sizeable numbers.   And of course its true that other people are being murdered for being in a minority. But nobody has sought to deny that, still less to say that they "deserve it" because of faults of their coreligionists on the other side of the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 17 Oct 13 - 10:30 AM

Christians are being specifically persecuted in some areas. Other communities are being persecuted in other areas.

I am aware that right now, possibly due to Christian communities forming the minority where religion is used as a tool for division, it is a statistical certainty that more Christians are being persecuted in numbers than other communities split on cult lines.

Mentioning it and highlighting it seems agenda ridden to me. In stable countries such as most of the western world, Christians form the majority (culturally if not religiously) so of course persecution statistics are as they are.

It is a mental leap of the most shallow and agenda ridden type though to read any further than the awful statistic.

Hence my cynicism of the agenda behind this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Oct 13 - 10:34 AM

No agenda, except the issue is under-reported.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Oct 13 - 11:38 AM

"I used the example because it was in the news today."
It is utter crassness to claim "Christian persecution" where there is none.
At best, it is 'special pleading' for a minority of Assad's victims because they happen to be Christians - a slap in the face for the rest, at worst, it undermines the reasonably good relationship Christians appear to have with other religions in Syria.
Such accusations instigate religious persecution in the same way a criminal's plea that "you are only accusing me because I'm black" helps promote race hatred.
And stop blaming somebody else (again) - it was you who put it up on a thread entitled 'Christian Persecution', not some unnamed newspaper editor - think before you put your foot in your mouth, then put it in, as is your wont.
"Hence my cynicism of the agenda behind this thread."
And so say all of us.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 17 Oct 13 - 12:19 PM

A statistic is under reported?

Doesn't equate.

Unless there is a reason to highlight Christian persecution as opposed to any other.

I rest my case

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Oct 13 - 12:37 PM

So if someone were to start a thread about "Gay bashing" it would be legitimate to denounce it as denying that lots of straight people get bashed as well, and that it is especially unfair to talk about this in particular because it marginalises violence towards other minority groups, or towards women.

Interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Oct 13 - 12:43 PM

""I can't see where Jim seems to get the notion that Keith or anyone is suggesting that the only people suffering religious persecution are Christians, or that that is the only religious persecution that matters""

Well he doesn't seem to be much bothered by the persecution of 3.8 million Palestinian Muslims, does he Kevin?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Oct 13 - 02:36 PM

Don those Palestinians are thriving, their population rising rapidly.
The Christian numbers are dwindling to extinction as they are killed or driven out.
Jim, there is persecution of Christians in some rebel held parts of Syria.
Did you not use the link or read the extract?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Oct 13 - 02:40 PM


Unless there is a reason to highlight Christian persecution as opposed to any other.

There is a reason.
The scale of the persecution and the number of communities being persecuted to extinction.
Read some of the links I put up.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Oct 13 - 04:42 PM

"Hence my cynicism of the agenda behind this thread."
And so say all of us.
.,,.

N O   W E   D O N ' T

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Elmore
Date: 17 Oct 13 - 04:55 PM

Just checking in. This thread bears a striking similarity to Old Man River.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 17 Oct 13 - 07:01 PM

Oppression occurs all over the place.

Makes the odd newspaper report.

Some of it involves people with a loose affinity to westerners in terms of who they pray to.

Something must be done about it!

Some on this thread point out the issue with differentiating. Ah well, say the excited ones. You wouldn't say that if it was about gay bashing
Yawn.

The more I read the more I see hardwired bigotry. The fact the reported communities happen to be Christian is totally irrelevant. Their being different to the oppressors is the issue.

Unless you are pushing an agenda. Then the fact they are Christian as opposed to Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster is all of a sudden important.

"Don't force us to accept women in top management roles because that would be persecuting us! " A bit like israeli actions. If you criticise their oppression of Palestinians you run the risk of being told you are anti semitic. Seems that gaining influence through guilt is a trick the Christian brethren are catching on to.

Why is the fact they are Christians important? It is a statistical certainty so what else are some on here trying to say? We make a special case? We deplore it more than any other cultural oppression?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Oct 13 - 07:47 PM

The fact that they are Christians is significant because it is the reason they are persecuted. Just as the fact that they were Jews or gypsies was the reason they were sent to the death camps.

All cases are "special cases". Being "special" in any society is what is liable to get you persecuted.

I haven't seen anybody here who has said of the persecution of Christians "we deplore it more than any other cultural oppression", or anything remotely like that. (On the other hand I have seen posts saying that they see it as something to be welcomed...)

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 02:17 AM

"N O   W E   D O N ' T "
None so blind Mike
You are one of the two people here who have worked bloody hard to make sure that the thread is manipulated only to discuss the persecution of Christians - not the persecution by Christians, not the built-in reasons that all religious persecutions happen, so you have chosen to be part of Keith's agenda - "you would say that, wouldn't you".
You have even gone as far as to suggest something totally unprecedented on this forum - that somebody can own a thread and restrict it to the area he/she wishes to discuss.
The facts of Keith's agenda:
Christians are being persecuted - no argument, except where Keith has attempted to invent persecution where it simply doesn't exist.
Persecution by the Christian Church either doesn't happen or is unimportant because "if you don't like it you can move somewhere else".
To oppose or even criticise persecution and to attempt to remove its causes is to attack all Christians and demand the abolition of their religion.
If it waddles and quacks it's almost certainly - an agenda.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 02:57 AM

The facts of Keith's agenda:
Christians are being persecuted - no argument, except where Keith has attempted to invent persecution where it simply doesn't exist.

Made up shit.
I have never done that.

Persecution by the Christian Church either doesn't happen or is unimportant because "if you don't like it you can move somewhere else".

Also not true.
We were discussing secular Ireland's democratically instituted laws, not Church persecution.
If a citizen or guest does not like them they have choices, including leaving.
That is simply stating an obvious fact.
What extra choices would you give them Jim, and would you deny Irish people the right to make their own laws?
On what grounds?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 03:42 AM

Just had a quick read of early posts to this thread.

The point Keith started with was a Vatican based organisation reckoning that 100 million Christians are being persecuted in some way or other.

Cardinal O'Brien (since fled The UK and in hiding courtesy of the Pope for his role in kiddy fiddling) called on The Foreign Secretary to do something about Christian persecution.

So far, so Christian.

Keith then backs it up by saying Christians are accused of blasphemy to substantiate the persecution. Mmmm..

So. The thread starts with a Catholic organisation getting influential cardinals to ask governments to make Christian persecution a special case. The usual idiots on mudcat.org, realising you can't polish a turd try to roll it in glitter. (Blasphemy indeed. .. All prophets of the book for starters. )



The rest of this thread has been ridiculing those who saw straight through the agenda.

Next.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 03:56 AM

Keith then backs it up by saying Christians are accused of blasphemy to substantiate the persecution. Mmmm..

Not true.
Richard posted that one murdered Christian was killed for his opposition to Pakistan's blasphemy laws, not his faith, and I replied.

Anyone can check by just looking at the first few posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 04:05 AM

"How to commit blasphemy in Pakistan
The country's blasphemy law is overwhelmingly being used to persecute religious minorities and settle personal vendettas. As the case of 14-year-old Christian Rimsha Masih.."
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/sep/05/pakistans-blasphemy-laws-colossal-absurdity

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 04:40 AM

You have even gone as far as to suggest something totally unprecedented on this forum, - that somebody can own a thread and restrict it to the area he/she wishes to discuss.

No I haven't, Jim: I have said the precise contrary -

"Nobody is trying to say that a thread remains the property of its OP, Jim" 16 Oct 0723 am.

All I have said is there is no point telling him to open a new thread to discuss what he wants to, when he has already done that with this one so there wouldn't be a lot of point.

Your trouble is that you can only read what suits your own agenda & your eye skates merrily over everything else.

"None so blind" right back 2U, mate.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 04:48 AM

The Pakistani government say that is illegal. They try to reform local judiciary in the same way as any other democracy. The separation makes it difficult when prejudice and scapegoat politics are in force.

You may as well say that criminals are targeting Christians because in Pakistan's case that is what it is. Persecution implies state sanction and you are supposed to be intelligent enough to read the articles you post links to.

I'd try another angle if I were you. (The Angela angle backfired too. ) Feeling sympathy and indeed empathy for the oppressed is easy. You don't even have to point out which cult they happen to be part of. Just note that they are a minority. We used to do it to gays not that long ago. It isn't hard. Just find someone to blame for your own mess and the mindless thugs every society has will do the rest. Just look at the professors with misspelt banners at EDF, BNP or UKIP rallies to see how it could happen just as easily here.

If you wished it to.   If you do, start by pointing out persecution of people with a tenuous link to yourselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 04:54 AM

Tho why do I bother? As bobad so succinctly put it a couple of days ago -

"There you go Mike, whenever he gets nailed this is the kind of shit he comes back with. I don't know why you waste your time with this a**hole [{he means YOU, J Carroll!}], he is as doctrinaire as any religious fanatic and beneath contempt."

Wise words. Don't think I can be bothered to argue with the Carroll any longer. As the girl sez to her truculent boyfriend who may be getting involved in a fracas: "Oh, leave it alone. He's not worth it."

So ta·ra, Jim. Hope it keeps fine 4U.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 04:58 AM

Carroll & Mather are lucky that there is no official policy of persecuting point-missing subject-changing obscurantist ½-wits. They wouldn't last 5 minutes...

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 05:54 AM

Musket, please make you posts simpler.
I struggle to understand.

Are you saying that Christians are not suffering persecution for their beliefs in Pakistan?

What is your criticism of me?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 08:07 AM

I'm saying whatever you twist my words into saying I am saying.

As ever.

My criticism is your agenda.


Michael. My wit is indeed 1/2 that of your own. Methinks in the opposite direction to your claim though. This thread is about Christian persecution. My fascination is with the agenda behind the use of the word Christian. There is oppression and persecution out there, lots of it. It is based on blaming a minority for all the ills. Bringing the specific word Christian into it is obscene.

In Pakistan you can be persecuted for your beliefs. Not by Pakistan though, but by criminals and rogue courts under a weak ineffectual government. Christians suffer from it, Shia Muslims suffer from it, Buddhists suffer from it yadda yadda.

This whole thread is based on a doubtful claim by a Vatican body that 100 million Christians are being persecuted. Even if the figures on persecution were true, the absence of acknowledging persecution based on any belief is disgusting.

Mind you, a Christian think tank reported today that one in four adults in The UK believe in angels. Perhaps it is asking too much to ask those angels to smite heathens who don't believe in the little baby Jesus? If Christians get the shitty end of the stick as opposed to any other minority in an unstable country, it makes you wonder why people waste so much time praying?

Wouldn't it be funny if we didn't have labels to allow us to hate each other? A good start will be the demise of religion in advanced countries and wait for the eventual knock on effect. Might take longer than our lifetime but the age of superstition is dying, slowly and with rearguard action, but dying. Poland, Russia, good Christian countries, Uganda, solid Christian country, Dumbfuckistan, part of The USA.. Try being openly gay and see how tolerant people are in the name of your bloody Christianity.

Hold that wonderful thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 08:25 AM

I have no agenda.
Why do you need to believe that I do?
I raised a legitimate concern as I did with the suffering in Syria.

It is reasonable for you to question the Vatican figures, but what about all the other sources I have produced.

Bringing the specific word Christian into it is obscene.

So these are all "obscene" and "agenda" driven?
Really?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/10264499/The-almost-unremarked-tragedy-of-Christians-persecuted-in-the-Middle-East.html

http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/between-errands-april-thompson/2013/sep/26/persecution-against-christian-increases-many-parts/


http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/high-tide-and-turn/2013/aug/2/putin-world-leaders-should-unite-end-anti-chri

http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9041841/the-war-on-christians/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kelly-james-clark/christianity-most-persecuted-religion_b_2402644.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/reviews/christianophobia-a-faith-under-attack-by-rupert-shortt-8274142.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 10:49 AM

"No I haven't, Jim: I have said the precise contrary "
Then your reference to "Keith's thread" and both your insistences that I/we stick to whichever aspect he deems suitable means something else does it?
I cannot recall anywhere on this forum anybody making such a demand as consistently as he has done over the last couple of years, and here you have echoed his attempts at censorship.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 11:01 AM

So are all words referring to religion obscene? Does this extend to all words describing any kind of minority which finds itself persecuted?

When people are persecuted for belonging to a minority this is not as being a member of a nameless generic category "minority', it is specifically as being a member of that specific minority, which has a specific name.

Once again, nobody in this thread has claimed that the only people who suffer persecution are Christians, or that where other groups are persecuted that is less important. To pretend otherwise is throughly dishonest.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 11:08 AM

I have no power over you or your posting Jim.
You are talking bollocks again.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 11:50 AM

The more the articles the more I read an agenda.

Nothing wrong with using the word Christian. A hell of a lot wrong in what the message is.

They are only Christian in that in many countries through past colonialism, Christians form sizable but minority communities hence when small communities are used as scapegoats, statistically speaking, Christian communities bear the brunt.

The fact that they happen to believe in a book called the Bible is utterly beside the point. It is purely their being there that is someone's issue. In many cases, it is a different form of Muslim, Hindu versus Sikh, Buddhist versus state, whatever.

The articles Keith refers to make the mental leap that being Christian has something to do with it. Pure bollocks. If you want a persecution complex, waffle on about someone dying for your sins or that you are all sinners or whatever mind control freakery your superstition afford you.

But to confuse minority scapegoat tactics with hatred of your particular delusion versus someone else's is an unwanted distraction to the issue of persecution and pogroms in general.

Here you go.   Not a single Christian is persecuted anywhere for any reason. People are persecuted for the convenience of being different and not enough of them to fight back.

So, what is so fascinating with the word Christian in all of this?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 12:24 PM

"I have no power over you or your posting Jim."
Don't you and and your unprincipled mate just wish!!
Denial and moronic repetition appears to your only defence for what you have put openly up o this thread.
Try one more time Mike.
Your behaviour here seems to indicate that you are 100% behind this eejit - can you confirm this please so I can remembering you when I once had a shred of respect for you?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 12:33 PM

Sorry - finger slip - should read "I can go back to
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 01:34 PM

"Once again, nobody in this thread has claimed that the only people who suffer persecution are Christians,"
And nobody here has claimed that they have Mac - these two have persistently demanded that this is what we should be discussing - not Christian forms of persecution, not the general causes of all religious persecution - just Christians being persecuted.
And either to deny or ignore that fact is dishonest
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 01:43 PM

Not a single Christian is persecuted anywhere for any reason.

Thanks for enlightening us on that point, Musket. Not a lot of people know that...

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 02:06 PM

Christian theocracy at work:

presumption of guilt for murder, if you're poor and female

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 02:36 PM

Musket, they are persecuted because they are part of a community.
That can be described as a Christian community.
What is wrong with saying they are persecuted Christians?
They are!

Jim.
these two have persistently demanded that this is what we should be discussing - not Christian forms of persecution, not the general causes of all religious persecution -

What would be the point of demanding?
We could not enforce!
You are still talking bollocks.

I am quite willing to discuss persecution by Christians.
MtheGM repeatedly asked for examples.
None have yet been produced.
The laws Ireland makes for itself by the will of its people is not persecution.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 03:07 PM

"We could not enforce!"
Then why is this a long-term ploy of yours - thread after thread, you and now your shadow?
"None have yet been produced."
Then despite all your mealy-mouthed sympathy for victims of clerical abuse - carried out by priests left with the care of their victims, using the authority of their position as church officers, defended by the silence of their superiors right up to the Vatican and facilitated by some of the worst offenders being moved from parish to parish when their crimes became too obvious and even today still protected by the refusal of the church hierarchy to open their records in order to give the survivors some closure on the abuse that has ruined their lives - despite these undeniable facts, you don't regard this as persecution?
The Same with the laundries and industrial schools - the facts are now no longer disputed - the only thing even defended is that some of the perpetrators have claimed they did no wrong and have refused to offer a penny in compensation - do you seriously claim that this is not persecution of helpless victims by a religious body      
And you say you have been given no examples.
The rest of your claim is is agenda-driven, unqualified in any way, ignorant shit - you haven't even botheres to produce one shred of evidence to back up your delials, even whan faced with the claims of groups of catholics who boast of the control they have over childrens' minds.
Piss off Keith - If you are a Christian, I've shit better
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 03:08 PM

If a Muslim or Sikh faction kicked the shit out of our village it would go down in the statistics as Christian persecution. The fact that less than 0.5% of the village attend any service and a survey to support some millennium funding for the church showed that the vast majority of the village didn't profess to believe in any faith. ..

We would be seen as a Christian community.

Just as the others are.

So I ask once more. Other than a socio economic label, what the hell has Christian got to do with it? Odds are many of the persecuted are about as religious as me.

Tell you what. I'll answer it myself. Western Christian activists want to be seen as having an affinity with poor sufferers in the same way as Israeli politicians want to be respected as Jews rather than judged by their deeds.

Makes it harder to criticise their influence on society if they play the brother oppressed card. An ex Archbishop of Canterbury keeps doing the rounds pointing out how The UK is ignoring the Church. He refers to it as persecution. ....

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 05:54 PM

You show your ignorance Musket.
You are right that persecution is directed at the different and it matters not what makes them different.
It just happens that the minority community in the most intolerant societies happens to be the Christian community.

See it from the perspective of the dirt poor, desperate victims.
They know they are being hunted down because they are Christians.
You would deny them even their identity.
You are with the persecutors.
That is your agenda Ian.

Jim, shit some more Christians for us.
With all the intolerant, prejudiced, hate filled, bigots pushing their agendas in our world, we need more.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 07:56 PM

While it is probably true that in most cases religious persecution has very little to do with the religious beliefs of those being persecuted, but rather with the fact that their religion marks them out as a minority, it is also true that in many if not indeed in most cases if people abandon their religious affiliation and convert they will cease to be seen as suitable targets for persecution. That is where religious persecution differs from other forms of ethnic and other persecution. You can't change your skin or your sex, you can abandon your religion.
.................

This thread is by now basically going round and round about two meanings of "religious persecution". One is where a minority defined by religion is under attack, either by the state or with the collusion or impotence of the state playing a part, typically involving harassment up to and including death, sometimes on a massive scale.

The other seems to mean anything which can be seen as associated with any religious organisation or tradition, more especially the Catholic Church, which is undesirable, or which is seen as undesirable.

This pointless thread could go on for ever. Very probably it will. I think I'll take a break for now.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Oct 13 - 02:57 AM

Yes Kevin.
I started the thread because I was concerned about "where a minority defined by religion is under attack, either by the state or with the collusion or impotence of the state playing a part, typically involving harassment up to and including death, sometimes on a massive scale."

I expected a little sympathy and a lot of indifference.
I did not expect angry denial.
It is the deniers who have an agenda.
An anti-Christian agenda, like the persecutors.

There would have been a very different outcome if it had been some other group in the frame.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Oct 13 - 03:30 AM

Keith
You continue to openly lie on this thread
You have persistently and deliberately ascribed beliefs to some of us that we do not hold.
You have claimed that you have been given no examples of persecutions by the Christian Church - I have just given you several extreme examples which you once again ignore and "pass by on the other side" as is the wont of some self-proclaimed 'Christians'
You even lie when you openly and dishonestly implicate your most loyal and consistent supporter in your lies.
"MtheGM repeatedly asked for examples - none have yet been produced."
He hasn't repeatedly asked for anything, nor has he stod by on the sidelines - he has conceded that these are abuses but "not on the same scale as those perpetrated against Christians"
He has even taken you to task (gently) for your manic insistence that the church has no say in the termination laws in Catholic countries.
It remain's to be seen whether he will confirm or deny this, just as it does whether Mac will continue to deny (or stay silent about) your agenda-driven dishonesty.
You have the Midas touch in reverse - the tiny handful of people who have ever supported you come away smelling of the foetid garbage that passes for your opinions.
You obviously have no intention of responding to the examples of Christian Church persecution that you have been given.
Will you at least have the honesty of confirming that you have no intention of doing so, and perhaps say why you take this unbelievably inhuman stance in light of the fact that the revelations of these horrific events have been instrumental not only in changing Irish law, but gone some way towards undermining and loosening the Church's centuries-old grip on Irish society?         
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 19 Oct 13 - 04:08 AM

I would deny them their identity? you do talk rubbish Keith. I don't think you are showing your ignorance though. I am of the opinion you know perfectly well what you put.

Here's my anti Christian agenda in a sentence. Are you ready? Here goes!













There. Happy now?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Oct 13 - 05:12 AM

As you well know Jim, I do not lie.
"MtheGM repeatedly asked for examples - none have yet been produced."
He hasn't repeatedly asked for anything,

Yes he has and it is easily proved.

You have claimed that you have been given no examples of persecutions by the Christian Church - I have just given you several extreme examples

No. You have yet to produce any example where a minority defined by religion is under attack, typically involving harassment up to and including death, sometimes on a massive scale.

The people of Ireland choosing laws that reflect their ethos, culture and values is not persecution by a Christian church.
If you do not like it, you have choices.
One ends with "off."

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Oct 13 - 05:25 AM

" Jim. I went to great pains above to try to get anyone to produce any occasion NOW, not 500 years, or even 10 years, ago, where Xtns were perpetrating the sort of persecution which they are suffering to such a degree in so much of the world today. The best you could come up with were nasty things that priests in Ireland did to some children, how many years ago was it -- could you please give me a precise date when the priest told the girl to 'embrace her martyrdom'? Then get hold of a copy of the new [out today] Spectator & read about what is happening THIS MOMENT in much of the world in The War On Christians by John L. Allen Jr. "

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Oct 13 - 05:50 AM

Clerical Child abuse is an ongoing saga and will continue to be while the Vatican continues to sit on evidence that might bring some relief to victims.
The Magdalene Laundries have not long hit the fan and will be a cuurent issue while the people who ran them express open contempt for their victims and refuse to a pay a penny in compensation - Industrial Schools fall into the same category
Compensation for all of these incidents are being funded from taxpayers money - which makes us all victims of religious abuse indirectly.
You have yet to attach one modicum of blame to the religious bodies who carrird out these abuses.
Jim Carroll

Even the Spanish Inquisition will remain an issue while the church adopts this attitude.

NOT SORRY AND WILL DO IT AGAIN
Even in the 20th century, Catholic authorities have tried to present the Inquisition in an undeservedly flattering light. Cardinal Lépicier, expressly supported by Pope Pius X, (Pope from 1903-14) declared the church's reign of terror was right, just because the church did it:
"The naked fact that the Church, of her own authority, has tried heretics and condemned them to be delivered to death, shows that she truly has the right of killing ... [W]ho dares to say that the Church has erred in a matter so grave as this?"
In fact, many have dared to say so.
Charles Leland wrote, "When people believe, or make believe, in a thing so very much as to torture like devils and put to death hundreds of thousands of fellow-beings, mostly helpless and poor old women, not to mention many children, it becomes a matter of very serious import to all humanity to determine once for all whether the system or code according to which this was done was absolutely right for ever, or not." Anthropologist Jules Henry said, "Organized religion, which likes to fancy itself the mother of compassion, long ago lost its right to that claim by its organized support of organized cruelty." G.G. Coulton said of the Inquisition, "History affords few plainer examples of the demoralizing effects of absolute power upon fairly ordinary men.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Oct 13 - 07:00 AM

""One is where a minority defined by religion is under attack, either by the state or with the collusion or impotence of the state playing a part, typically involving harassment up to and including death, sometimes on a massive scale.""

I don't know whether you realise it Kevin, but that statement, with the exception of ""sometimes on a massive scale"" applies to the situation faced by Muslims in the UK, with the state being unable to do more than react after the fact.

There is a powerful argument to be made in line with Musket's comment, that these attacks are based on what the victim isn't, rather than what he is!

Minorities are, IMO, more likely to be persecuted because "They are not us"!

Because the Christian Church spread to everywhere that formed part of the Roman Empire, and beyond, the minority communities that are found throughout the Middle and Far East, tend to be Christian. This does not mean that their Christian faith is the reason for the persecution.

In countries where minorities are not Christian, persecution still occurs, and until there is concrete evidence that Christianity rather than difference is the reason, there is no justification for the title of this thread.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Oct 13 - 08:26 AM

You have yet to attach one modicum of blame to the religious bodies who carrird out these abuses

Yes I have, but on relevant threads not this one about religious persecution.

Don, the persecuted Christian communities are dwindling to extinction as they are killed or driven out.
Unlike our thriving Muslim community that expanding rapidly and which welcomes a large inflow from their homelands every day.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket giggling
Date: 19 Oct 13 - 08:56 AM

Did you notice the final bit of Keith's comment above? Not much point in me harping on about his agenda. He has wrapped it in neon lights and invited the world media to see it.

Glad to see he noticed the Spectator article I made mention of a number of posts ago. Further drivel to try to make people see it is Christian persecution rather than minority persecution. At least that article was written by a card carrying member of the church of Dumbfuckistan, as opposed to our wishy washy cardigan brigade. Just as bloody dangerous mind.

This war on Christians.. At least you are prepared for it. All together now!

"Fight the good fight with all your might!"

"Onward Christian soldiers, marching unto war!"

Or is that like the God did it prayers? You don't actually have to believe what you are saying / singing?   

Are there any Christians reading who would like to give a Christian perspective? Plenty of wannabes here, but the boutique believers are getting out of their league.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 13 - 09:10 AM

Unlike our thriving Muslim community that expanding rapidly and which welcomes a large inflow from their homelands every day.

So what are you frightened of, Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 19 Oct 13 - 09:20 AM

Christian theocracy in action. The American fundie Protestant variety:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efra%C3%ADn_R%C3%ADos_Montt

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Oct 13 - 09:52 AM

Unlike our thriving Muslim community that is expanding rapidly and which welcomes a large inflow from their homelands every day.
So what are you frightened of, Keith?

Huh?
I was pointing out a false comparison between persecuted Christian communities and our Muslim community.
The Christians are being driven out, but Muslims choose to live here.

How typical that you have to try to discredit me with the same old baseless slur.
It is as good as an admission of defeat.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: bobad
Date: 19 Oct 13 - 09:53 AM

Islamic Terror Attacks on Christians
(Since 9/11)

This is a list of targeted acts of terrorism on Christian civilians and church workers by religious Muslims since September 11th, 2001. These attacks have nothing to do with war, combat or insurgency. The victims are innocent Christians who were specifically targeted and abused solely on account of their faith by those who claim their own religion as a motive.

There may be a few anomalies on the list, as it is compiled by keyword search from our main database. Neither is this a complete account of Islamic terror attacks on Christians since much of the violence goes unreported.

(Last updated on Sunday, September 22, 2013)

Date         Country         City/State         Killed         Injured         Description
9/22/2013         Pakistan         Peshawar         61         110         Two Shahid suicide bombers obliterate over sixty worshippers at a church service.
9/14/2013         Pakistan         Karachi         1         0         A Christian's throat is slit on the street after being branded an 'infidel' and blasphemer.
9/13/2013         Tanzania         Zanzibar         0         1         Muslims throw acid on a priest, badly burning him.
9/12/2013         Egypt         Sahel Selim         2         0         Two Copts are shot to death for refusing to pay Jizya to Muslims.
9/8/2013         Syria         Maaloula         3         6         Three Christians are murdered in their home, and six others taken hostage by Islamists.
9/7/2013         Syria         Maaloula         3         0         At least three Christians are shot to death after declining an offer to embrace Islam.
9/4/2013         Syria         Maaloula         8         27         At least eight defenders are killed when Islamists storm a Christian village and shell a church.
9/4/2013         Syria         Maalula         1         0         Islamists slit the throat of a Christian for refusing to deny his faith, then taunt his fiancee.
9/3/2013         Nigeria         Gura Dabwam         3         1         Muslims gun down a devout Christian villager and his two teenage sons.
9/3/2013         Nigeria         Kunte-Kuru         6         0         A brutal assault by Muslim militia on the home of a Christian family leaves six members dead, including a 7-year-old child.
9/1/2013         Somalia         Beledweyne         1         1         A Christian woman is murdered in front of her child, in a targeted attack by Islamic radicals.
9/1/2013         Nigeria         Adu         9         3         Nine Christian villagers, including two children, are machine-gunned in their own homes by Muslim terrorists.
8/29/2013         Nigeria         Jos         5         0         Five Christians are ordered off a bus and summarily executed by Religion of Peace activists.
8/25/2013         Nigeria         Nasarawa         0         7         Thirty Muslims attack a church armed with knives and clubs.
8/18/2013         Egypt         Minya         2         0         Islamists butcher two security guards on a boat owned by Christians.
8/17/2013         Egypt         Minya         0         1         A Copt survives a brutal stabbing by Muslims while trying to put out a fire at a church.
8/17/2013         Syria         al-Hasn         15         24         Fifteen Christian villagers are reportedly massacred by Sunni terrorists.
8/17/2013         Syria         Homs         6         0         Six Christians are murdered by Sunni terrorists.
8/17/2013         Egypt         Sohag         1         0         A civilian is killed while trying to defend a church from the Muslim Brotherhood.
8/16/2013         Egypt         Alexandria         1         0         Muslim radicals pull a Christian taxi driver out of his cab and decapitate him.
8/15/2013         Egypt         Minya         2         48         Two Copts are killed and dozens more injured when Muslim Brotherhood supporters go on a church-burning rampage.
8/14/2013         Syria         Raqqa         1         0         An Italian priest is kidnapped and murdered by Islamists.
8/12/2013         Syria         Qusayr         1         0         A young Christian girl is reportedly raped, torture and murdered by Jihadis.
8/6/2013         Egypt         Ain Shams         1         0         A 10-year-old Christian girl is shot through the heart in front of her church by pro-Muslim Brotherhood activists.
8/6/2013         Syria         Jaramana         18         56         Islamists set off a powerful car bomb in a Christian suburb. At least eighteen people are slain.
8/6/2013         USA         Richmond, CA         1         0         A Muslim convert "on a mission from Allah" stabs a store clerk to death.
8/6/2013         Egypt         Souhag         1         3         Muslims attack a store owned by a Coptic family, shooting three members and kidnapping a fourth.
8/3/2013         Centrafrique         Bozoum         15         24         A baby is among at least fifteen Christian refugees massacred by the Seleka Islamic militia.
7/29/2013         Nigeria         Kano         45         15         Forty-five people lose their lives to Islamist bombers targeting Christian districts and churches.
7/27/2013         Pakistan         Okara         1         0         A Christian is beaten and executed in front of his children by Islamic gunmen.
7/15/2013         Pakistan         Quetta         1         0         Sipah-e-Sahaba terrorists kidnap and torture to death a former Sunni who converted to Shia.
7/12/2013         Egypt         Dabaaya         4         32         A Muslim bomb attacks a Christian village, burning dozens of homes and killing four Copts.
7/11/2013         Egypt         Zweid         1         0         A Christian is found beheaded several days after being kidnapped by Muslim extremists.
7/9/2013         Iraq         al-Tarmiyah         1         0         A Christian 'infidel' is kidnapped and executed by Muslim terrorists.
7/6/2013         Egypt         al-Arish         1         0         Islamic gunmen murder a Coptic priest.
7/5/2013         Egypt         Nagaa Hassan         4         4         Four Christians are brutally hacked to death by Muslim Brotherhood supporters.
7/5/2013         Pakistan         Islamabad         1         0         Islamic fundamentalists attack a local church, shooting one person to death.
7/2/2013         Nigeria         Borno         1         0         A Pentecostal pastor is gunned down by Boko Haram.
6/27/2013         Syria         Qatana         1         0         A Greek Orthodox priest is kidnapped and tortured to death by Religion of Peace proponents.
6/27/2013         Syria         Damascus         4         8         A suicide bomber detonates outside a church, killing four innocents.
6/27/2013         Syria         Idlib         2         0         Two Christians, including a priest, are reportedly kidnapped, bound and beheaded on video by Islamists.
6/25/2013         Iraq         Baghdad         0         2         Two guards are wounded when Muslims open fire on a Catholic church.
6/25/2013         Iraq         Baghdad         2         2         Islamists set off a bomb near a church, killing two people.
6/24/2013         Iraq         Baghdad         1         2         Jihadis bomb a Christian-owned store, killing a father of three.
6/23/2013         Syria         Idlib         1         0         A Catholic monk is beheaded Islamists for defending nuns.
6/18/2013         Nigeria         Bakin Rijiya         1         0         At least one resident is killed when Muslim terrorists attack a Christian village and burn four churches.
6/15/2013         Nigeria         Hwa�a         1         0         A pastor's throat is slit by Islamists upon refusal to convert.
6/11/2013         Pakistan         Sheikhupura         1         0         A Christian teen is tortured and killed on (false) suspicion of relations with a Muslim girl.
6/9/2013         Kenya         Mombasa         0         17         Islamists throw a grenade into a church during Sunday service, nearly killing a baby.
6/7/2013         Somalia         Jamaame         1         0         Islamists identify a Christian convert and publicly execute him.
6/6/2013         Bangladesh         Bolakipur         0         5         Muslim 'extremists' break in to a Catholic seminary and beat the rector and students 'with violence and brutality'.
6/2/2013         Tanzania         Geita         0         1         Religion of Peace activists enter the home of a Christian pastor and nearly hack him to death.
5/26/2013         Egypt         Cairo         1         0         Muslims abduct and kill a 6-year-old Coptic boy.
5/24/2013         Nigeria         Borno         1         0         Members of Boko Haram murder an elderly Christian woman in her home.
5/24/2013         Nigeria         Gwoza         2         0         A pastor and a church member are brutally slain by Islamist gunmen.
5/22/2013         Pakistan         Karachi         1         0         A Christian man is gunned down by two men in a targeted attack.
5/19/2013         Pakistan         Khushpur         1         3         Angry Muslims fire on a Christian village, killing a teenage student.
5/17/2013         Egypt         Alexandria         1         3         A Copt is killed during an assault by a Muslim bomb on a church.
5/15/2013         Nigeria         Maiduguri         1         0         Religion of Peace activists shoot a pastor to death in his home in front of his daughter.
5/5/2013         Nigeria         Njilan         10         0         Islamic extremists stage a Sunday morning attack on a church and a nearby cattle market, killing at least ten.
5/5/2013         Tanzania         Arusha         3         57         A 9-year-old child, a teenager and a woman bleed to death when a Muslim convert tosses a bomb into a church.
5/2/2013         Pakistan         Manghopir         2         2         Two watchmen are shot dead during an attack by the Taliban on a Belgian missionary school.
4/13/2013         Centrafrique         Bangui         1         0         A pastor is shot to death by Islamic militants at a funeral.
4/13/2013         Somalia         Buulodbarde         1         0         Islamists murder a Christian mother of five only four months after doing the same to her husband. Both were killed for leaving Islam.
4/11/2013         Egypt         Khusus         1         0         A 26-year-old Christian is doused with gasoline and set ablaze.
4/10/2013         India         Srinigar         0         9         Two children and five women are among nine Christians attacked in their home by a mob whipped into a frenzy by an imam.
4/9/2013         Nigeria         Gwoza         3         0         Islamists shoot three people in the head while they are playing cards, including a pastor's son.
4/7/2013         Egypt         Cairo         2         89         Muslim radicals attack a group of mourners leaving a church, killing one on the spot and another in subsequent clashes.
4/7/2013         Nigeria         Midlu Shalmi         14         5         Muslim radicals shoot, hack and slit the throats of fouteen Christians.
4/6/2013         Egypt         Khusus         7         17         Angry Muslims torch a church and kill seven Christians over alleged desecration.
4/4/2013         Pakistan         Manga Mandi         1         0         A 20-year-old Christian is shot in the head by Muslims calling their religion 'supreme'.
4/3/2013         Tanzania         Tunduma         2         3         Two Christians are murdered by Muslim extremists for selling non-halal meat.
4/3/2013         Pakistan         Gujranwala         0         18         Eighteen Christians are injured by a Muslim mob whipped into a frenzy by a cleric.
3/31/2013         Nigeria         Ataka         19         12         Muslim 'nomads' attack a Christian village, butchering nineteen people, including women and children.
3/28/2013         Nigeria         Barkin Ladi         9         3         Nine Christians are machine-gunned during a Muslim raid on their village.
3/26/2013         Nigeria         Riyom         36         12         Fulani 'militia' attack two Christian villages, hacking and shooting three dozen to death.
3/24/2013         USA         Ashtabula, OH         1         0         A Muslim convert walks into a church service with a Quran and guns down his Christian father while praising Allah.
3/23/2013         Somalia         Bulo Marer         0         1         A Christian convert is jailed and tortured for leaving Islam.
3/23/2013         Egypt         Cairo         0         1         Muslim Brotherhood cadres abduct a Christian and take him to a mosque for a brutal round of torture.
3/18/2013         Pakistan         Kalaswala         0         1         A Christian missionary is severely beaten by Muslim extremists.
3/18/2013         Nigeria         Kano         41         44         Over 40 Christians are blown to bits by Shahid suicide car bombers in a brutal attack.
3/17/2013         Nigeria         Torok         2         3         A Muslim fires on a Christian family, killing a baby and a 5-year-old and injuring three women.
3/14/2013         USA         Vancouver, WA         0         2         Two people suffer knife injuries when a Muslim convert attempts to stab a non-Muslim to death over religious views outside a coffee shop.
3/10/2013         Nigeria         Dakata         5         3         Five Christians are shot to death by Islamic extremists while returning home from church.
3/10/2013         Nigeria         Jama'are         7         0         Ansaru Islamists summarily execute seven 'Christian' hostages.
3/10/2013         Libya         Benghazi         1         0         A Christian arrested by Islamists for 'proselytizing' dies from 'natural causes' while being tortured.
3/9/2013         Pakistan         Lahore         0         35         A Muslim mob rampages through a Christian neighborhood, burning more than 100 homes and injuring three dozen.
3/2/2013         Tanzania         Dar Es Salaam         0         1         An Islamist attempt to hack a church bishop to death is thwarted by a guard who suffers horrific injuries.
3/2/2013         Egypt         Cairo         3         0         Three Christian brothers are machine-gunned in their home by Islamists angered over a church-building rumor.
3/2/2013         Libya         Benghazi         0         11         A priest and ten parishoners are beaten and humiliated in their own church by Muslim activists.
3/1/2013         Egypt         Kom Ombo         0         23         Muslims firebomb a church on a false rumor of a conversion.
2/24/2013         Nigeria         Fika         5         3         Islamists rampage through a Christian village, killing five people in attacks that included a church.
2/23/2013         Nigeria         Aduwan         5         11         A baby and a 13-year-old are among five innocents slain when Muslim extremists rake churches with machine-gun fire.
2/23/2013         Nigeria         Abuja         17         1         Fundamentalists storm a factory, separate Christian from Muslim workers and then murder seventeen of the former in cold blood.
2/23/2013         Egypt         Alexandria         5         0         Islamists murder four Christians and a guard outside a church.
2/22/2013         Nigeria         Kogom         10         2         Fulani Muslims hack ten Christian family members to death including five small children.
2/19/2013         Cameroon         Lake Chad         2         1         Two Christian converts are lined up and shot to death for leaving Islam.
2/18/2013         Somalia         Alanley         1         0         A 42-year-old Christian teacher and father of four is brutally executed by al-Shabaab outside his home.
2/18/2013         Netherlands         Brabant         1         0         Islamists are suspected in the murder of a Christian convert from Iran.
2/17/2013         Tanzania         Zanzibar         1         0         A priest is murdered by Muslim extremists on his way to church.
2/16/2013         Pakistan         Lahore         1         0         A 45-year-old Christian is murdered in cold blood by a Muslim arguing religion.
2/11/2013         Tanzania         Buseresere         1         0         A pastor is beheaded by a group of Muslim youth.
2/8/2013         Pakistan         Pattoki         0         3         Three Christian women are beaten and tortured by a Muslim mob in their own home.
2/7/2013         USA         Buena Vista, NJ         2         0         A Muslim targets and beheads two Christian Coptic immigrants.
2/7/2013         Kenya         Garissa         1         1         Islamists shoot two Christian pastors, killing one.
2/4/2013         Pakistan         Chaman         1         0         A Christian dies after being shot five times by Muslims angry that he would not embrace Islam.
2/1/2013         Nigeria         Samunaka         15         1         Islamists attack and burn three churches, killing at least fifteen innocents, including two children.
2/1/2013         Egypt         Alexandria         0         1         A Christian woman is stabbed on the street by Muslim hardliners.
1/28/2013         Turkey         Istanbul         1         0         An 85-year-old Christian woman is stabbed to death by an attacker who then carves a cross on her body.
1/16/2013         Nigeria         Jos         4         2         Four Christians are the victims of a Muslim drive-by.
1/16/2013         Algeria         Tigantourine         2         6         Armed Islamists attack an oil field, killing two people they identified as Christians and kidnapping over a hundred workers.
1/15/2013         Norway         Haugesund         0         2         A Muslim stabs two Christians who converted from Islam.
1/9/2013         Pakistan         Bahawalpur         1         0         Muslim stab a 19-year-old Christian to death for seeing a Muslim girl.
1/8/2013         Iraq         Mosul         1         12         A car bomb at a supermarket in a Christian area kills a medical student.
1/7/2013         Iraq         Mosul         1         0         A female Christian teacher's throat is cut by dedicated Muslims.
12/31/2012         Syria         Ras al-Ayn         1         0         A pregnant Christian woman is left widowed after her husband is beheaded by Islamic radicals and fed to dogs.
12/30/2012         Nigeria         Kyachi         15         0         Islamists invade a church service on Sunday morning, tie up fifteen worshippers and execute them. (Follows similar attack elsewhere two days earlier).
12/30/2012         Libya         Misrata         2         2         Islamists toss a hand grenade at worshippers leaving a Coptic church, killing two.
12/30/2012         Pakistan         Ittehad Chowk         1         1         Gunmen fire at two Christian brothers in a targeted attack. One later dies of injuries.
12/28/2012         Nigeria         Musari         15         0         Islamists tie up fifteen women and children inside a church, then slit their throats while shouting praises to Allah.
12/28/2012         Turkey         Samatya         1         0         An 84-year-old Christian woman is stabbed to death by a Muslim in what is called a 'racist' attack.
12/27/2012         Pakistan         Quetta         1         0         A Christian girl is shot execution style through the head.
12/26/2012         Sudan         Buram         4         0         A 70-year-old woman and two children are among four Christians killed in an Islamic bomb attack.
12/26/2012         Nigeria         Bachit         5         0         Suspected Fulani murder three villagers, including a married couple, in attacks on two Christian homes.
12/25/2012         Pakistan         Iqbal         0         12         At least a dozen Christian men, women and children s are set on with guns and iron rods by a Muslim mob outside their church.
12/25/2012         Tanzania         Zanzibar City         0         1         A Catholic priest is shot in the chest by Muslim gunmen.
12/25/2012         Nigeria         Peri         6         4         A pastor and five worshippers are slaughtered in a Religion of Peace attack on a Christmas morning church service.
12/25/2012         Nigeria         Rim         1         0         A Christian is killed in his home by Fulani gunmen in front of his family.
12/24/2012         Nigeria         Maiduguri         6         0         Six people are killed in a Christmas Eve church attack by Religion of Peace gunmen.
12/18/2012         Sudan         Eire         5         1         Two 4-year-olds and a baby are among a Christian family of five killed in an Islamic bombing.
12/8/2012         Somalia         Beledweyne         1         0         Religion of Peace activists shoot 55-year-old Christian to death for leaving Islam.
12/6/2012         Nigeria         Yankaba         2         0         Two Christian teenagers are executed by gunmen on a motorcycle yelling, 'Allah akbar'.
12/3/2012         Pakistan         Lahore         1         0         A 72-year-old female Christian charity worker is shot in the neck by suspected Islamists.
12/2/2012         Nigeria         Chibok         10         0         Religion of Peace proponents invade a Christian village in the middle of the night and massacre ten residents.
12/1/2012         Nigeria         Gamboru Ngala         2         0         Two guards die when Muslims shouting 'Allah Akbar' burn churches.
11/25/2012         Nigeria         Jaji         15         30         Two suicide bombers massacre fifteen worshippers at a Protestant church.
11/22/2012         Nigeria         Bichi         4         2         Angry Muslims riot, burn churches and kills four Christians over a rumor of blasphemy concerning a t-shirt.
11/18/2012         Nigeria         Maiduguri         1         0         An 70-year-old retired Protestant pastor is executed in cold blood by Islamic extremists.
11/17/2012         Sudan         South Kordofan         3         3         Three Christian villagers are killed in two targeted bombing attacks by the Islamic republic.
11/16/2012         Syria         Aleppo         20         60         Sunnis detonate a bomb outside an Orthodox church that leaves at least twenty dead.
11/16/2012         Somalia         Barawa         1         0         A Christian convert is beheaded for leaving the Religion of Peace.
11/16/2012         Nigeria         Maiduguri         3         0         Three Christian traders are shot to death by Boko Haram.
11/15/2012         Nigeria         Madauchi-Zonkwa         5         0         Muslim radicals are suspected in the slaughter and burning of a Christian family in their home.
11/10/2012         Nigeria         Gaidam         5         0         Five Christian iron welders are slaughtered in their own home by Boko Haram gunmen.
11/4/2012         Kenya         Garissa         1         10         One person dies from splinter injuries when Islamists toss a grenade at a church.
10/30/2012         Syria         Homs         1         0         An 84-year-old Christian is murdered by Sunnis.
10/28/2012         Syria         Jaramana         12         69         Twelve people outside a bakery in a Christian district are exterminated in a targeted bomb attack.
10/28/2012         Egypt         Cairo         0         5         Five Christians are injured by Muslims trying to block their way into church.
10/28/2012         Sudan         Delami         1         9         The Islamic Republic of Sudan aerial bombs several Christian villages, killing a 1-year-old baby.
10/28/2012         Nigeria         Kaduna         7         100         Seven worshippers are murdered when a suicide car bomber plows into a Catholic church during mass.
10/27/2012         Syria         Deir Ezzor         5         24         Terrorists set off a car bomb in front of a church, killing five innocents.
10/25/2012         Syria         Qatana         1         0         An Orthodox priest is horribly tortured and murdered by Muslim 'criminals'. His eyes were gouged out.
10/21/2012         Syria         Damascus         13         29         A bomb targeting Christians on their way to church leaves thirteen dead.
10/21/2012         Nigeria         Atagara         2         0         Two people are killed when Islamic radicals torch a church.
10/19/2012         Lebanon         Beirut         8         78         A car bomb blast in a Christian suburb leaves eight dead, including children.
10/16/2012         Indonesia         Masani         2         0         Jamaah Anshorut Tauhid murder two investigators of a church bombing by stabbing them in the neck.
10/14/2012         Nigeria         Yogbo         30         0         Thirty people are left dead when Muslims resolve a "land dispute" by massacring thirty Christian villagers, mostly women and children.
10/14/2012         Egypt         Abdelmassih         2         3         Two members of a Christian family are shot to death in their own home by a Muslim gang attempting to kidnap and convert a 24-year-old female relative.
10/14/2012         Nigeria         Maiduguri         3         0         A family of three is cut down outside their church by Islamist gunmen.
10/10/2012         Nigeria         Riyom         14         5         Three children and their mother are among over a dozen Christians are slaughtered during a Muslim raid on their village.
10/10/2012         Nigeria         Dallyam         4         4         Muslim terrorists shoot four members of a Christian family at close range.
10/10/2012         Nigeria         Barkin Ladi         2         0         Two Christians are machine-gunned while sitting in their car.
10/2/2012         Nigeria         Mubi         26         15         At least twenty-six Christian students are singled out and executed by Islamists at their campus. Some are shot, others have their throats cut.
10/1/2012         Syria         Said Naya         3         0         Three Christians are abducted and murdered by a Muslim 'gang'.
9/30/2012         Kenya         Nairobi         1         6         A child is killed when Religion of Peace proponents toss a grenade into a church.
9/28/2012         Pakistan         Youhanaabad         0         1         A protestant bishop is assaulted and by angry Muslims and beaten outside his church.
9/23/2012         Nigeria         Bauchi         2         48         A woman and a child at a church service are murdered by a Shahid suicide car bomber.
9/21/2012         Pakistan         Mardan         0         12         Thousands of burn down a Lutheran church and thrash a dozen Christians.
9/16/2012         Pakistan         Hyderabad         0         1         Islamists angered over a Muhammad film ambush a nun and her driver outside a cathedral.
9/15/2012         Pakistan         Karachi         2         4         Six Christians are shot at close range in their homes by Religion of Peace gunmen.
9/3/2012         Syria         Jaramana         4         12         Sunni rebels are blamed for a car bomb blast targeting Christians in a residential neighborhood.
8/29/2012         Syria         Zamalka         7         0         A family of seven Christians, including three children, are shot in the street by 'Liua Islam'.
8/28/2012         Syria         Jaramana         27         48         Sunni terrorists are blamed for a car bombing attack on a Christian funeral that leaves twenty-seven dead, including children.
8/28/2012         Pakistan         Karachi         1         1         Islamic militants open fire on a pastor, injuring him and killing a church member.
8/21/2012       

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Oct 13 - 09:57 AM

BTW, John L. Allen Jr is no fundy from "Dumfuckistan."
He is a progressive, liberal Catholic.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: bobad
Date: 19 Oct 13 - 10:10 AM

the list cont'd

8/14/2012         Pakistan         Sahiwal         1         0         A 14-year-old Christian girl is gang-raped and murdered by five Muslim men.
8/13/2012         Nigeria         Gombe         1         1         A guard is killed during a Religion of Peace assault on a Catholic church.
8/10/2012         Nigeria         Kombul         4         3         Four Christians are cut down in their homes by a Muslim raid on their village.
8/10/2012         Philippines         Jolo         1         0         A Christian man is gunned down by Abu Sayyaf terrorists on his way home from church.
8/10/2012         Nigeria         Kaduna         0         1         Muslim's yell 'Allah Akbar' as they set fire to a church and shoot at a pastor and his family.
8/6/2012         Nigeria         Maiduguri         1         0         A church pastor is shot to death in his home by two Islamists.
8/6/2012         Nigeria         Okene         20         9         Sharia proponents enter a church and open up on members with machine-guns, slaughtering at least nineteen, including the pastor.
8/5/2012         Philippines         Maguindanao         1         11         At least one woman is killed when Bangsamoro Islamic Freedom Movement members overrun a Catholic village.
7/29/2012         Nigeria         Kano         2         0         Two Christians are gunned down outside their homes by Boko Haram Islamists.
7/26/2012         Philippines         Sumisip         5         22         Abu Sayyaf terrorists attack a Christian farming village, killing at least five.
7/26/2012         Egypt         Shubra el Khayma         0         1         A Christian doctor is brutally blinded by Salafist Muslims after asking them to stop firing weapons in celebration.
7/22/2012         Syria         Damascus         4         0         The 'Islamic Brigade' stops a car carrying a Christian family, force them out and then massacre them, including the two children.
7/22/2012         Philippines         Tumahubong         0         4         There are four casualties when suspected Abu Sayaaf gunmen ambush a group of priests.
7/22/2012         Pakistan         Hyderabad         2         0         Two Christians are shot to death by Muslim radicals.
7/8/2012         Nigeria         Barkin-Ladi         23         1         Two politicians are among twenty-three Christians, including women and children, slaughtered by Muslims during a funeral for other victims of Islamic terror.
7/8/2012         Pakistan         Kot Ghulam         1         0         A Christian laborer is pulled out of his truck and shot point-blank by a Muslim.
7/7/2012         Nigeria         Kushen         80         300         Muslim terrorists attack twelve Christian villages and massacre eighty innocents, including fifty taking refuge in a church.
7/7/2012         Kosovo         Pristina         2         0         A middle-aged Christian couple is found shot to death in their home in what is presumed to be a targeted attack by members of the Muslim majority.
7/6/2012         South Africa         Philippi         14         0         al-Shabaab is suspected in the serial killings of fourteen Christians.
7/1/2012         Kenya         Garissa         18         66         Muslims throw grenades into two churches and then shoot fleeing Christians. Some eighteen die in the massacre, including three children..
7/1/2012         Nigeria         Maiduguri         9         0         Nine Christian construction workers have their throats cut by Islamists in a 'gruesome' killing.
6/29/2012         Egypt         El Sharqiya         2         0         Two Christians are reported murdered by Muslim Brotherhood activists.
6/25/2012         Somalia         Mogadishu         0         3         Three Christian converts are shot inside their home by Islamic fundamentalists.
6/17/2012         Nigeria         Trikania         5         40         A Shahid suicide car bomber crashes through a church gate and blows up at least five Christians.
6/17/2012         Nigeria         Zaria         34         125         Holy Warriors walk into two church services and detonate, leaving over thirty worshipers dead in the carnage, including at least ten children.
6/11/2012         Egypt         Cairo         0         12         Several Christian students are injured by Muslims angered over their evangelism.
6/10/2012         Nigeria         Jos         4         40         A Shahid suicide bomber detonates inside a church during Sunday morning service, killing at least four.
6/10/2012         Nigeria         Biu         2         12         A woman and an usher are among two Christians machine-gunned by Islamists during a church service.
6/4/2012         Tunisia         Tunis         1         0         Video surfaces of an execution earlier in the year in which a man's throat is cut for embracing Christianity by Muslims who offer prayers as they slice.
6/3/2012         Nigeria         Bauchi         21         45         A Holy Warrior runs his car into a church service and detonates, taking out over twenty praying Christians. The responsible group later thanks Allah for the victory.
5/23/2012         Iraq         Mosul         3         2         Extremists enter the home of a Catholic priest, murder his father and two brothers, and rape his mother and sister.
5/21/2012         Nigeria         Benue         5         3         Five people in a Christian village are murdered by Muslim raiders.
5/19/2012         Nigeria         On-Mbaagbu         12         5         Muslim 'mercenaries' storm two Christian villages and slaughter seven people, including a 2-year-old boy butchered with a knife.
5/15/2012         Pakistan         Quetta         1         0         A Christian man is shot to death while walking home.
5/14/2012         Nigeria         Adamawa         15         48         Fifteen Christian villagers are massacred by twenty Fulani raiders.
5/9/2012         Nigeria         Rim         1         2         A Christian villager is killed by Muslim attackers.
5/9/2012         Nigeria         Tahoss         7         1         Muslim activists set fire to Christian homes and then shoot those trying to flee, killing at least seven, including two children.
5/8/2012         Pakistan         Dhamala         0         3         Three Christian women are 'beaten mercilessly' in their own home by a Muslim gang.
5/1/2012         Nigeria         Riyom         6         6         Muslims raid a Christian village, setting fire to homes and shooting those who fled.
4/29/2012         Nigeria         Maiduguri         5         6         The pastor is among five Christians shot to death by Boko Haram Islamists inside their church.
4/29/2012         Kenya         Nairobi         1         16         A suspected al-Shabaab member throws a grenade into a church during Sunday service, killing a worshipper.
4/29/2012         Nigeria         Kano         16         22         Sixteen Christians, including professors and doctors, are massacred by Islamists, who bomb their church service and then shoot them in the back as they try to flee.
4/25/2012         Nigeria         Riyom         5         5         Four women and a 4-year-old child are among members of a Christian village hacked to death by Fulani raiders.
4/25/2012         Nigeria         Abuja         2         2         Muslims shoot a Christian father and teenage son to death for 'not serving Allah' and also kidnap the family's two young daughters, ages 7 and 9.
4/12/2012         Macedonia         Smilkovsko         5         0         Five young Christian fishermen between the ages of 18 and 22 are brutally slaughtered by a group of radical Muslims at a lake.
4/11/2012         Mali         Timbuktu         1         0         A Christian leader is beheaded shortly after Islamic forces take control of the city.
4/9/2012         Nigeria         Dikwa         3         0         A civilian and guard at a church are among three people shot to death by Boko Haram.
4/8/2012         Nigeria         Kaduna         41         33         A suicide car bomber detonates outside a church celebrating Easter. Nearly forty people lose their lives in the carnage.
4/7/2012         Mali         Timbuktu         1         0         A Christian leader is beheaded by Religion of Peace activists.
4/7/2012         Turkey         Bahcelievler         0         1         Radicals rush into a church and assault a pastor when he refuses to embrace Islam.
4/4/2012         Nigeria         Maiduguri         9         0         Islamic radicals fire on Christian traders at a market, killing nine.
4/1/2012         Nigeria         Maiduguri         1         0         A Christian is shot to death by Islamists on his way home from church.
3/31/2012         Kenya         Mtwapa         2         30         Two Christians are blown apart when Mujahideen toss a grenade into an outdoor worship service.
3/30/2012         India         Nutangram         0         1         A 65-year-old widow is badly beaten in her own church by Islamic extremists.
3/26/2012         Nigeria         Takum         2         2         Muslim 'mercenaries' attack two Christian villages and shoot a 22-year-old and an elderly man to death.
3/22/2012         Iraq         Mosul         1         0         A Christian is kidnapped and murdered.
3/20/2012         Iraq         Baghdad         2         5         Religion of Peace bombers kill two people with a blast at an Orthodox church.
3/20/2012         Iraq         Baghdad         3         0         Suspected al-Qaeda storm a church and kill three guards.
3/18/2012         Nigeria         Suleja         0         5         A church is firebombed during a service.
3/18/2012         Yemen         Taiz         1         0         al-Qaeda gunmen murder an American teacher accused of being a 'Christian proselytizer'.
3/15/2012         Nigeria         Nayi         10         4         A pastor is among ten people hacked and shot to death when armed Muslims raid Christian homes around a church.
3/12/2012         Nigeria         Bum         2         3         Fulani raiders slaughter two Christian villagers.
3/11/2012         Nigeria         Jos         11         22         A suicide bomber detonates at a Catholic church during mass, killing at least eleven worshippers.
3/11/2012         Nigeria         Chugwi         3         3         Three Christians are shot dead by Muslim gunmen in a targeted attack.
3/6/2012         Nigeria         Bilala         2         0         At least two civilians are killed as Boko Haram devotees blow up a church and a police station.
3/4/2012         Nigeria         Benue         21         13         Women and children comprise the bulk of twenty-one members of a Christian farming community slaughtered by Fulani 'mercenaries' wielding machetes and burning homes.
3/4/2012         Egypt         Abu Al-Reesh         0         2         Two nuns are injured when a Muslim mob of 1500 lays siege to a Catholic school on rumors of a church building.
3/1/2012         Iraq         Sulaymaniyah         1         0         A Christian schoolteacher is gunned down by a Muslim student over 'religious differences'.
2/29/2012         Bangladesh         Madarganj         0         3         Three missionaries are injured when a mob, stirred up by an Islamic seminary, throw stones at them.
2/26/2012         Nigeria         Jos         4         38         A suicide bomber detonates during a church service, killing four worshippers including a woman and a father and 18-month-old child.
2/26/2012         Pakistan         Kot Meerath         0         1         A Christian woman is brutally tortured and paraded for harboring alleged 'anti-Islam' views.
2/25/2012         Sudan         Umsirdipa         5         0         Five members of a Christian family are killed in a targeted attack by the Islamic republic.
2/22/2012         Pakistan         Faisalabad         0         2         A Muslim mob attacks a church and shoots one Christian while pushing another off the roof.
2/22/2012         Nigeria         Maiduguri         1         0         Islamists slit the throat of a pastor's 75-year-old mother and leave a note in Arabic for her son.
2/19/2012         Israel         Jerusalem         0         1         One person is injured when Muslims hurl rocks at Christian tourists from their mosque on the Temple Mount.
2/19/2012         Nigeria         Sulieja         0         5         Sharia advocates set off a car bomb next to a church.
2/11/2012         Nigeria         Potiskum         2         0         Two Christian brothers are murdered in cold blood by Islamists in white robes.
2/9/2012         Syria         Qusayr         1         0         Sunni rebels pull a Christian family man out of his car and execute him in cold blood.
1/30/2012         Nigeria         Potiskum         1         0         A guard at a church is picked off by Islamist snipers.
1/26/2012         Egypt         Bahgourah         2         0         A Christian father and son are machine-gunned by Muslims after refusing to pay money.
1/24/2012         Norway         Haugesund         0         2         Two ex-Muslim converts to Christianity are stabbed by three attackers shouting 'kuffar' (unbeliever).
1/23/2012         Turkey         Istanbul         0         1         A Christian laborer is severely tortured with scalding water on orders of his Muslim employer.
1/22/2012         Nigeria         Tafawa Balewa         9         12         Militant Muslims hurl grenades into Christian homes, killing some as they slept and then shooting others as they tried to escape.
1/19/2012         Egypt         Kebly-Rahmaniya         0         2         A man and boy suffer gunshot injuries when a mob rampages through a Christian town, shouting 'Allah Akbar' and burning homes.
1/17/2012         Sudan         Khartoum         0         1         A church evangelist is arrested and brutally beaten by police.
1/15/2012         Syria         Damascus         3         0         Three Christians are killed in targeted attacks - two while waiting in line at a bakery.
1/15/2012         Sudan         Rabak         0         2         Islamic militia force their way into a church and kidnap two priests, who are then 'mistreated' in captivity.
1/11/2012         Nigeria         Potiskum         6         0         Six Christians, including a woman and a baby, are machine-gunned by Boko Haram while on a bus at a gas station.
1/10/2012         Nigeria         Dalman         3         0         Three Christians are shot and hacked to death in a sectarian attack at a farming community.
1/9/2012         Nigeria         Maiduguri         2         0         Religion of Peace activists shoot two Christians death in their own homes in separate attacks.
1/7/2012         Nigeria         Maiduguri         2         0         Two Christian university students are murdered by Religion of Peace gunmen.
1/6/2012         Nigeria         Adamawa         12         4         Islamists chanting 'Allah Akbar' barge into a church and massacre a dozen worshippers.
1/6/2012         Nigeria         Mubi         20         15         Twenty Christians gathered for a funeral are machine-gunned at close range by Muslims shouting 'Allah Akbar'.
1/5/2012         Nigeria         Gombe         9         10         Muslim gunmen spray a church congregation with machine-gun fire, killing nine, including the pastor's wife and several children.
1/5/2012         Nigeria         Mubi         4         0         Four Christians are gunned down by Boko Haram.
1/2/2012         Tajikistan         Dushanbe         1         0         A Christian dressed as Father Christmas is called an 'infidel' and stabbed to death by Muslim radicals.
1/2/2012         Somalia         Cee-Carfiid         1         0         A Christian humanitarian worker is beheaded by Religion of Peace activists for leaving Islam.
12/29/2011         Egypt         Assiut         0         5         At least five people are hurt when a Muslim mob burns Christian homes over a Facebook cartoon.
12/28/2011         Pakistan         Plateau         3         0         A baby is among three members of a Christian family shot and hacked to death by machete-wielding Muslims.
12/25/2011         Nigeria         Jos         1         0         Muslim militants fire on a protestant church, killing a guard.
12/25/2011         Nigeria         Madalla         45         73         Religion of Peace bombers strike a Catholic church during a morning Christmas mass, slaughtering forty-five worshippers.
12/25/2011         Iraq         Mosul         1         0         Muslim snipers pick off a Christian just outside his home.
12/24/2011         Nigeria         Maiduguri         11         0         A pastor and his young daughter are incinerated when Islamists fire bomb three churches.
12/24/2011         Uganda         Namasuba         0         1         A young pastor, who left Islam after having been born the son of an imam, is blinded by acid in a vicious Christmas Eve attack.
12/22/2011         Pakistan         Lahore         0         1         A young Christian is stabbed several times after having been falsely accused of insulting Islam.
12/19/2011         Nigeria         Ungwan Rami         5         6         Five Christian villagers are hacked and shot to death by Muslim raiders. The victims include a mother and her baby.
12/15/2011         Saudi Arabia         Jeddah         0         6         At least six Ethiopian Christians are beaten when police storm a prayer meeting. Twenty-nine women are strip-searched.
12/14/2011         Iraq         Mosul         2         0         Two more Christians are shot to death.
12/13/2011         Iraq         Mosul         2         2         A Christian man and his wife are gunned down in their car by Jihad warriors. Their children survive with injuries.
12/11/2011         Nigeria         Kagoro         1         2         Fulani extremists gun down a Christian mother.
12/11/2011         Nigeria         Gombe         1         0         Muslim gunmen murder a Christian as he is putting gas in his car.
12/10/2011         Nigeria         Jos         1         11         A young fan is killed when Islamic bombers target several Christian areas, including an outdoor viewing of a televised soccer match.
12/10/2011         Nigeria         Kukum Gida         1         2         Muslim gunmen ambush Christian villagers in the middle of the night, murdering a 50-year-old woman.
12/5/2011         Kenya         Nairobi         0         1         A 23-year-old Christian is beaten into unconsciousness by seven Muslims for the crime of leaving Islam.
12/3/2011         Iraq         Zakho         0         32         Thirty-two people are injured during a rampage by fundamentalists against Christian-owned businesses.
11/30/2011         Egypt         Ghorayzat         2         3         Two Christian brothers are murdered in cold blood by a Muslim mob rampaging through Christian homes and businesses.
11/26/2011         Nigeria         Geidam         4         20         Islamic radicals descend on a small town, burn eight churches and murder four defenders.
11/25/2011         Pakistan         Muzaffargarh         0         2         Two Christian women are beaten on their own land with clubs by a group of Muslim 'men'.
11/25/2011         Kenya         Garissa         1         0         One person is murdered outside of a church by Muslim radicals.
11/24/2011         Nigeria         Kwok         26         0         Twenty-six Christian villagers are shot and hacked to death by Fulani herdsmen screaming 'Allah Akbar'.
11/24/2011         Nigeria         Barkin Ladi         18         1         A Christian family of sixteen, including children, is burned alive by Fulanis.
11/23/2011         Nigeria         Yobe         2         0         Militants kidnap and kill two children to punish their father for being 'disloyal to Islam' by converting to Christianity.
11/23/2011         Nigeria         Sabon Layi         4         0         A Bible teacher is among four worshipers slaughtered at a church by Muslim radicals.
11/23/2011         Pakistan         Khurda Renala         1         0         Muslims torture and shoot to death a Catholic father of four.
11/21/2011         Nigeria         Barkin Ladi         1         0         Islamic extremists behead a young Christian.
11/20/2011         Nigeria         Razat         3         1         Muslims hack three young Christians to death at an illegal roadblock.
11/17/2011         Egypt         Cairo         0         32         Islamic radicals violently attack a group of Copts, marching to a memorial for slain victims of another massacre.
11/17/2011         Nigeria         Gargari         4         6         Three young girls are among four Christians murdered by Muslim extremists in their own homes.
11/16/2011         Pakistan         Karachi         1         0         A pastor is shot in the neck and face in a targeted ambush.
11/15/2011         Israel         Haifa         0         1         An 82-year-old nun is tied up and severely beaten by a gang of four Muslims, including a father and son.
11/10/2011         Philippines         Carmen         1         0         A church elder and father of thirteen is beheaded by Religion of Peace activists at his farm.
11/6/2011         Pakistan         Abbottabad         0         1         A pregnant Christian woman is tortured for three hours by police.
11/5/2011         Kenya         Garissa         2         3         A member of the choir is killed along with an 8-year-old girls when al-Shabaab terrorists toss a grenade into a church.
11/4/2011         Philippines         Malabang         2         0         Suspected Moro Islamists murder two Catholic roadside vendors.
11/4/2011         Nigeria         Zonkwa         1         1         Nigerian Islamists shoot another Christian to death in a village raid.
11/4/2011         Nigeria         Potiskum         150         200         Two-hundred militants shout 'Allah Akbar' as they slaughter one-hundred and fifty in a bombing and shooting rampage that targeted six churches and a police station. At least one-hundred and thirty of their victims were Christian.
11/3/2011         Nigeria         Kaduna         2         14         Mujahideen gunmen attack a church, shooting two female worshippers to death.
10/27/2011         Kenya         Nairobi         0         1         A young convert from Islam is left for dead after being severely beaten with iron rods in front of his church.
10/23/2011         Philippines         Cabengbeng         5         8         Five Catholic plantation workers are massacred by Moro Islamists in a pre-dawn attack on their village.
10/20/2011         Nigeria         Yelwa         1         0         Three Muslim soldiers break into a home and shoot a Christian mother of five to death.
10/20/2011         Nigeria         Bauchi         0         1         A Christian boy is shot at a soccer match by armed Muslims.
10/16/2011         Egypt         Mallawy         1         0         A Coptic high school student is beaten to death after refusing to take off his cross.
10/12/2011         Pakistan         Korangi         1         0         A Muslim slashes a Christian mother's throat after raping her.
10/9/2011         Egypt         Cairo         27         329         Military and Islamist gunmen massacre over two dozen Christians peacefully protesting a church burning.
10/9/2011         Philippines         Zamboanga         0         13         Abu Sayyaf bombers injured thirteen people in separate attacks targeting Christians.
10/8/2011         Iraq         Kirkuk         1         1         Muslim gunmen shoot an elderly Christian and a woman.
10/5/2011         Pakistan         Mian Channu         1         38         A Christian trying to build a church orphanage is murdered by Muslims in a "land dispute."
10/4/2011         Nigeria         Tanjol         1         1         Muslim militants gun down two Christian villagers.
10/2/2011         Iraq         Mosul         1         0         Islamists murder a 30-year-old restaurant employee in a targeted attack against Christians.
10/1/2011         Iraq         Kirkuk         1         0         A 60-year-old Christian is shot to death by Muslim assassins.
9/29/2011         Egypt         Tamia         1         2         A guard at a church is taken out by a Muslim drive-by.
9/25/2011         Indonesia         Solo         2         20         A teenage girl is among two worshippers cut to pieces by a Shahid who wanders into a church service and detonates a bomb packed with nails and bolts.
9/25/2011         Somalia         Deynile         1         0         Islamists behead a 17-year-old whose family held secret Bible studies in their home.
9/22/2011         Nigeria         Madala         5         0         Five Christian traders are executed by Boko Haram gunmen when they are unable to recite Quran verses as ordered.
9/18/2011         Nigeria         Bitaro         3         8         Muslim activists raid a village, pull members of a Christian family from their home and then hack and shoot them to death. The victims included children.
9/14/2011         Pakistan         Lahore         1         0         A 15-year-old girl is strangled to death by her uncle for a suspected affair with a Christian boy.
9/12/2011         Indonesia         Maluku         6         80         Six people are killed when machete-wielding Muslims attack a Christian village on a false rumor.
9/10/2011         Nigeria         Vwang Fwil         14         6         Fourteen Christian villagers from the same family, including a woman in labor, are hacked to death during a midnight Muslim raid.
9/9/2011         Pakistan         Islamabad         1         0         A Christian imprisoned for 'offending the Quran' dies after being denied medical treatment by prison officials.
9/9/2011         Nigeria         Barkin Ladi         9         0         A Christian father and his seven young children are among nine shot to death in a Fulani raid on their home.
9/9/2011         Nigeria         Kunsen Gashish         3         0         Three Protestant farmers are hacked to death by machete-wielding Muslims.
9/8/2011         Nigeria         Tsohon Foron         10         0         Muslim extremists murder a family of ten Christians.
9/6/2011         Nigeria         Zakaleo         4         0         Four Christians are burned alive when militant Muslims set fire to their house.
9/6/2011         Nigeria         Kuru         14         13         Fourteen residents of a Christian village are hacked and shot to death in an orgy of Islamic violence that lasts an hour.
9/5/2011         Nigeria         Zakalio         7         0         Seven Christian villagers are murdered by Muslim extremists.
9/5/2011         Nigeria         Dabwak         4         0         An elderly Christian couple and their two grandchildren are shot to death in their home by Muslim raiders.
9/5/2011         Nigeria         Tatu         8         0         A Christian family of eight including the parents and six children are hacked to death by Muslim militants in their home.
9/4/2011         Pakistan         Mariamabad         1         0         A Catholic pilgrim is kidnapped and murdered while walking to a shrine.
9/2/2011         Somalia         Hudur         1         0         A convert to Christianity is kidnapped and beheaded by Muslim activists.
8/29/2011         Nigeria         Jos         2         1         A pastor who preached religious tolerance is hacked to death by Islamic extremists along with his son at their church.
8/28/2011         Pakistan         Faisalabad         0         1         A 64-year-old maid is beaten by madrassah students for hosting a Christian prayer meeting in her home.
8/27/2011         Nigeria         Maiduguri         1         0         A Protestant evangelist is assassinated in his own home by Religion of Peace enthusiasts.
8/26/2011         Norway         Jaeren         0         1         A Christian convert from Islam is scalded with boiling water and acid at a refugee center.
8/21/2011   &

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: bobad
Date: 19 Oct 13 - 10:20 AM

8/15/2011         Iraq         Kirkuk         0         14         Fourteen are injured when Muslims bomb a church.
8/15/2011         Nigeria         Heipang         9         1         Seven children are among a Christian family of nine brutally murdered in their home by Muslim raiders.
8/14/2011         Pakistan         Karachi         0         2         Two Christians are beaten to unconsciousness with iron rods after refusing an offer to embrace Islam.
8/14/2011         Pakistan         Karachi         0         1         A Christian is beaten with iron rods after declining an offer to embrace Islam.
8/12/2011         Pakistan         Bilal         0         12         A small group of Catholics are beaten by fundamentalists after gathering to watch a religious film.
8/12/2011         Indonesia         Sepe         5         2         Jihad warriors attack a Christian village with bombs and knives, killing at least five residents and burning homes and churches.
8/11/2011         Indonesia         Malei         1         0         A Christian is killed while trying to salvage items from his home after it is destroyed by a Muslim mob.
8/11/2011         Nigeria         Ratsa Foron         6         0         Six Christians are hacked to death in the middle of the night by Muslim raiders.
8/8/2011         Egypt         Minya         1         1         A Christian farmer has his throat slit in front of his son by a Muslim mob, who attack Christian homes and also severely beat a pastor.
8/5/2011         Pakistan         Drigh Road         1         0         A Catholic man with children is the target of an attack that leaves his driver dead.
8/2/2011         Iraq         Kirkuk         0         23         Two dozen are injured when radicals bomb a Catholic church.
7/29/2011         Egypt         Minya         2         2         Two Christians are taken out by snipers while riding in a car.
7/25/2011         Egypt         Samalout         0         6         A pregnant woman is among six Christians brutally assaulted with iron rods by a Muslim mob angered over a church bell.
7/10/2011         Nigeria         Suleija         3         0         At least two women are among three Christians killed by a Boko Haram bomb detonated outside a church.
6/26/2011         Egypt         Awlad Khalaf         0         3         Three Christians are injured when a Muslim mob torches eight homes on a rumor that one was to become a church.
6/26/2011         Senegal         Dakar         0         24         About two dozen Christians are severely injured when a Muslim mob sets fire to their church during a service under orders from a local imam.
6/25/2011         Philippines         Isabela City         2         8         Muslim militants are suspected of detonating a bomb outside a Catholic church that leaves two people dead.
6/21/2011         Pakistan         Lahore         1         0         A Christian father of four who worked as a garbage collector is stabbed to death by an angry Muslim.
6/16/2011         Nigeria         Damboa         4         1         Four children leaving a church are brutally taken out by a Boko Haram blast.
6/14/2011         Sudan         South Kordofan         2         5         At least two church workers are killed when the Islamic republic bombs a village.
6/11/2011         Indonesia         East Java         0         1         A young woman is kidnapped by Islamic hardliners on her way home from church, beaten, slashed, and held for two days.
6/10/2011         Sudan         Kadugli         0         1         Islamists kidnap a pastor and torture him for two days.
6/10/2011         Pakistan         Farmwala         0         1         A Christian boy is beaten for refusing to embrace Islam.
6/9/2011         Pakistan         Landhi         1         0         A Christian civilian is shot to death by Muslim gunmen.
6/9/2011         Nigeria         Maiduguri         2         0         A pastor at a Church of Christ and his secretary are brutally gunned down by Religion of Peace loyalists.
6/8/2011         Sudan         al Shaeer         1         0         A Christian seminary student is shot to death in front of bystanders by agents of the Islamic government.
6/8/2011         Sudan         Kadugli         1         0         A young Christian man is dragged to a market and slaughtered by the sword by men yelling 'Allah Akbar'.
6/7/2011         Nigeria         Maiduguri         2         14         Two innocents bleed to death after Islamists detonate a bomb outside a church.
5/30/2011         Iraq         Mosul         2         1         A Christian father of four is murdered by Jihadi gunmen along with a bystander.
5/24/2011         Nigeria         Maiduguri         1         0         Islamists murder a guard outside a Catholic church.
5/19/2011         Egypt         Cairo         0         3         Three Catholics are severely injured by a rock-throwing Muslim mob intent on preventing a church from opening.
5/16/2011         Iraq         Kirkuk         1         0         Muslim kidnappers gouge out the eyes of a Christian victim and then cut off his head.
5/15/2011         Egypt         Cairo         2         0         Two Copts are gunned down in a Muslim drive-by attack.
5/15/2011         Egypt         Cairo         0         50         About fifty Christians are injured when a Muslim mob hurls rocks and homemade bombs into a peaceful protest.
5/9/2011         Egypt         Cairo         1         0         A 60-year-old Catholic grandfather is beaten to death by enraged Muslims.
5/8/2011         Egypt         Imbaba         1         0         Islamists break into a Catholic church and slit a member's throat.
5/8/2011         Egypt         Imbaba         1         0         Salafists shoot the 16-year-old nephew of a Catholic bishop in the head.
5/7/2011         Egypt         Cairo         12         232         Fundamentalists assault two churches with firebombs and gunfire, killing five Copt defenders and seven more in an ensuing rampage.
5/6/2011         Sudan         Abu Shouk         0         1         After being spotted with a Bible, a female aid worker is arrested for apostasy and severely beaten.
5/6/2011         Nigeria         Kano         17         3         Seventeen residents of a Christian village, including a pastor's wife and three children are massacred in a pre-dawn Muslim attack.
5/4/2011         Sudan         Khartoum         0         2         A husband and wife survive a violent knife attack in their home after converting from Islam to Christianity.
4/30/2011         Bulgaria         Pazardjik         0         1         A pastor who converted from Islam is beaten bloody in front of his church by a gang of Muslims.
4/30/2011         Pakistan         Gujranwala         0         25         Twenty-five Christian men and women suffer injury following an attack by an enraged Muslim mob of about 350.
4/30/2011         Pakistan         Gujranwala         0         25         Fueled by rumors of a Quran desecration, a Muslim mob of hundreds attacks a Christian village, burning homes and assaulting the innocent.
4/27/2011         Pakistan         Hamza         0         3         Anti-Christian activists go on a spree, attacking a pastor, severely injuring his son and later raping a woman.
4/24/2011         Iraq         Baghdad         0         7         Seven people are injured when Muslim activists detonate a bomb outside a church.
4/20/2011         Nigeria         Bauchi         10         17         Women are among a group of young Christians murdered by a Muslim mob.
4/19/2011         Nigeria         Kaduna         321         575         Angry Muslims go on a two-day bender, torching over forty churches and hacking and burning over three hundred Christians to death.
4/18/2011         Somalia         Shalambod         1         0         A 21-year-old convert to Christianity is pulled from his home and shot 10 times by Islamists yelling 'Allah Akbar'.
4/18/2011         Egypt         Minya         1         11         One Copt is killed by Muslim rioters, who throw a grandmother out of a second story balcony while shouting praises to Allah.
4/17/2011         Pakistan         Gujranwala         0         12         Twelve worshippers at a Pentecostal church are pulled out and beaten by a Muslim mob.
4/8/2011         Nigeria         Bogoro         10         0         Muslims armed with machetes attack a Christian village and burn at least ten people to death, including several who were elderly.
4/7/2011         Brazil         Rio de Janeiro         12         20         A convert to Islam walks into a school and guns down a dozen children, apparently inspired by fundamentalist websites.
4/5/2011         India         Motijil         0         1         A female convert to Christianity is stripped naked and beaten by angry Muslims.
4/4/2011         Ethiopia         Worabe         1         1         Muslims beat a Christian evangelist to death and assault his pregnant wife.
4/3/2011         Nigeria         Bogoro         2         1         A Muslim mob, angered over rumor of a local Quran desecration storms a Christian village and kills two people.
3/30/2011         Nigeria         Jos         2         5         Fulani raiders attack a college and murder two Christians.
3/25/2011         Pakistan         Hyderabad         2         0         A Muslim mob invades a Pentecostal church, burns Bibles and kills two worshippers.
3/23/2011         Israel         Jerusalem         1         39         Palestinian terrorists leave a bomb at a bus stop which kills a female Bible translator and injures thirty others.
3/22/2011         Pakistan         Hyderabad         2         0         After yelling abuse at worshippers outside a church, a Muslim mob opens fire, killing two.
3/21/2011         Nigeria         Baten         4         0         Two women and two children are hacked and shot to death during a Muslim raid on a Christian village.
3/20/2011         Egypt         Qena         0         1         A Christian has his ear torn off by Muslims enforcing Sharia law.
3/20/2011         Nigeria         Jos         2         0         Muslim extremists kill two worshippers with bombs placed at several churches.
3/20/2011         Nigeria         Jos         1         0         A Christian boy is shot to death by Islamic radicals.
3/14/2011         Nigeria         Plateau         6         0         Five family members are among six Christian villagers slaughtered by Muslim raiders.
3/14/2011         Iran         Evin         2         0         A Christian man and his Jewish wife are hung in captivity by Iranians.
3/9/2011         Egypt         Cairo         9         150         Nine Copts, including a child, are killed and over a hundred more injured when a Muslim mob hurls firebombs and shoots into a group protesting a church burning.
3/8/2011         Ethiopia         Asendabo         2         0         Two Christians are killed when angry Muslims rampage through their community, burning churches and homes.
3/4/2011         Egypt         Sol         2         0         A Muslim mob, angry over a relationship between a Muslim girl and Christian boy, kills the two fathers and burns down a church.
3/2/2011         Pakistan         Islamabad         1         1         A Catholic cabinet minister is brutally shot to death in his car after being accused of blasphemy.
3/1/2011         Ethiopia         Oma         0         17         Seventeen students are beaten with rods and pelted with stones for distributing Bibles.
3/1/2011         Nigeria         Maiduguri         1         0         A guard at a church is gunned down in an Islamist drive-by.
2/28/2011         Nigeria         Dabwak         5         0         A Christian mother and four of her children are slaughtered in their home by Muslim militants..
2/24/2011         Iraq         Baghdad         1         0         A 70-year-old Christian man is stabbed to death in his home by Muslim radicals.
2/24/2011         Egypt         Wadi el-Natroun         0         19         Two monks are among nineteen injured when military forces storm a Coptic monastery with live ammunition.
2/23/2011         Egypt         Assiut         1         0         A priest is brutally stabbed to death in his home by killers shouting 'Allah Akbar!'
2/22/2011         Oman         Coast         4         0         A retired missionary couple is among four Americans taken hostage and executed in cold blood by Muslim pirates.
2/22/2011         Nigeria         Borno         18         7         Eighteen Christian villagers are massacred during a Muslim raid.
2/18/2011         Tunisia         Tunis         1         0         After receiving death threats from Muslim extremists, a priest is kidnapped and eventually has his throat slit.
2/15/2011         Nigeria         Maiduguri         2         0         Two people are killed when Boko Haram gunmen attack two churches.
2/10/2011         Nigeria         Alice         2         3         A father is among two Christians shot to death by militant Muslims in their homes.
2/10/2011         Nigeria         Kuru         5         9         A 4-year-old is one of five Christian villagers hacked and shot to death by Islamic raiders.
2/8/2011         Indonesia         Temanggung         0         7         A Muslim mob viciously beats a priest trying unsuccessfully to keep them from burning three churches and an orphanage.
2/6/2011         Pakistan         Nut Kallan         1         0         A young Christian is tortured to death by several Muslims.
2/1/2011         Somalia         Mogadishu         1         0         A convert to Christianity suffers deep injuries after being bound and assaulted with metal objects and rocks, then stomped.
1/31/2011         India         Sopore         2         0         Two teenage daughters of a poor laborer are pulled out of their home and brutally executed by Lashkar-e-Toiba, reportedly for reading the Bible.
1/30/2011         Egypt         Sharona         11         4         Very young children are among eleven members of two Coptic families shot to death in their homes at point-blank range by Islamic radicals.
1/30/2011         Nigeria         Ayaruje         3         0         Three Christian villagers are hacked to death by Muslims with machetes.
1/29/2011         Nigeria         Jos         1         0         A Muslim soldier deliberately shoots a 6-year-old Christian boy to death before he is taken down by other soldiers.
1/28/2011         Nigeria         Jos         3         0         Two university students belonging to a local church are stabbed to death.
1/27/2011         Nigeria         Barkin Ladi         14         8         Muslim raiders invade four Christian villages and hack fourteen people to death in their own homes.
1/27/2011         Nigeria         Were         2         11         Islamic radicals kill two people and burn down several Christian homes.
1/23/2011         Nigeria         Maiduguri         1         0         A guard outside a church is murdered by Islamic gunmen.
1/23/2011         Nigeria         Jos         8         5         A woman and daughter are among six Christian villagers are hacked to death in the middle of the night during two separate Muslim raids.
1/15/2011         Iraq         Mosul         0         1         A Christian doctor is brutally shot and seriously injured in a targeted hospital attack.
1/11/2011         Pakistan         Lahore         0         2         Two Christian women are violently beaten and humiliated by a Muslim mob over claims they had 'abused' Muhammad.
1/11/2011         Egypt         Samalout         1         5         A policeman boards a train and opens fire on a group of elderly Christians while yelling 'Allah Akbar.' A 71-year-old victim dies on the scene.
1/11/2011         Nigeria         Kuru Station         19         3         Children are among the victims when Muslims attack a Christian village, hacking nineteen to death and burning their homes.
1/9/2011         Nigeria         Borno         1         2         A guard at a church is shot to death in an Islamist drive-by.
1/7/2011         Somalia         Warbhigly         1         0         Islamic militants slit the throat of a Christian mother of four.
1/4/2011         Pakistan         Islamabad         1         0         A regional governor is assassinated at a cafe for appealing on behalf of a Christian woman jailed for blasphemy.
1/3/2011         Iraq         Baghdad         1         0         A Christian woman who survived an Islamist church massacre a few weeks earlier is shot to death in her sleep.
1/2/2011         Philippines         Maguindanao         2         3         A Christian farmer is gunned down while driving home.
1/1/2011         Egypt         Alexandra         23         77         Twenty-three parishioners are incinerated by a Shahid suicide bomb attack on a New Year's Day church mass.
12/30/2010         Iraq         Baghdad         2         13         Coordinated Mujahideen attacks against Christian families leave at least two dead.
12/27/2010         Iraq         Dujail         1         1         Jihadi bombers take down a Catholic woman and injure a family member.
12/25/2010         Philippines         Sulu         0         11         A priest and a 9-year-old girl are among eleven injured when Islamists set off a bomb inside a chapel.
12/24/2010         Nigeria         Jos         86         74         At least eighty-six people are killed in a series of Islamic bomb blasts and attacks, mostly targeting Christmas Eve church services. The dead include choir members hacked to death.
12/24/2010         Pakistan         Shahdra         0         1         A 12-year-old Christian girl is kidnapped, raped for eight months and forcibly converted to Islam.
12/21/2010         Nigeria         Turu         3         2         Angry Muslims armed with swords and machetes assault a group of local Christian villagers, killing three.
12/19/2010         Israel         Jerusalem         1         1         An American woman on a Christian mission is kidnapped, tied up and stabbed to death by Arab warriors.
12/5/2010         Iraq         Baghdad         2         0         Four Holy Warriors bind and stab an elderly Christian couple to death in their home.
12/3/2010         Nigeria         Nwachukwu         7         4         Christian women and children are slaughtered in their homes by Muslim attackers in a midnight raid.
11/30/2010         Iraq         Mosul         1         1         Islamists rush into a Christian shop and gun down the proprietor brothers.
11/25/2010         Nigeria         Kwata Zawan         3         1         Muslim radicals shoot three Christian villagers to death.
11/25/2010         Kenya         Bardher         1         0         A 17-year-old girl is tortured and murdered by her parents for leaving Islam for Christianity.
11/25/2010         Egypt         Giza         1         0         A 4-year-old boy suffocates when tear gas is thrown into a church chapel.
11/24/2010         Egypt         Giza         1         68         Police shouting 'Allah Akbar' block a church construction and then fire on a group of Coptic demonstrators, killing one.
11/22/2010         Iraq         Mosul         1         0         An elderly Christian woman is strangled in her home by Religion of Peace activists.
11/22/2010         Iraq         Mosul         2         0         Two Christian brothers are shot to death in their shop by Muslim extremists.
11/22/2010         Pakistan         Sargodha         0         1         A protestant pastor is beaten and set on fire by six Muslims who caught him evangelizing.
11/16/2010         Iraq         Mosul         2         0         A 6-year-old Christian girl and her father are exterminated by Islamic bombers.
11/15/2010         Iraq         Mosul         3         0         Three Christian brothers are brutally shot to death in their home by Religion of Peace advocates.
11/10/2010         Iraq         Baghdad         6         20         Islamists blast Christian areas of Baghdad with bombs and mortars, killing at least six.
11/7/2010         Iraq         Mosul         2         0         Two more Christian worshippers are murdered by Muslim gunmen in separate attacks.
10/31/2010         Iraq         Baghdad         53         80         Forty-four church members and two young priests are slaughtered when Islamic State of Iraq Fedayeen invade a church, shooting members and tossing grenades into the congregation. Seven policemen are also killed.
10/26/2010         Nigeria         Chewenkur         6         3         Four teenagers and two women are hacked to death when Muslims armed with machetes attack a Christian village.
10/24/2010         Iran         Tehran         1         0         A devout Muslim beats his Christian relative to death for leaving Islam.
10/9/2010         Bangladesh         Jhenaidah         0         2         An elderly Christian man and his son are beaten by Muslim villagers for refusing to return to Islam.
10/8/2010         Pakistan         Punjab         0         2         An 80-year-old Christian and his elderly wife are beaten unconscious by Muslim attackers.
10/8/2010         Philippines         Cotabato         2         1         Militant Muslims previously targeting missionaries kill two people and kidnap a woman.
10/1/2010         Pakistan         Haripur         7         0         A Christian couple and their five children (ages 6-17) are brutally shot to death in their home by Muslim extremists.
9/18/2010         Kenya         Nairobi         0         6         Six Christian missionaries are abducted, raped and tortured for three days by Muslims proclaiming the truth of Islam.
9/13/2010         Ethiopia         Dufti         0         1         A group of Islamists stab a Christian who had left Islam.
9/12/2010         Indonesia         Bekasi         0         2         Holy Warriors beat a pastor with a board and stab a worshipper in the stomach as there are on their way to church.
9/9/2010         Iraq         Baghdad         2         2         Two people are reportedly killed when gunmen open fire on an Anglican church in an incident tied to a threatened Quran burning.
8/29/2010         Philippines         Bukidnon         0         2         'Irate Muslims' throw a grenade into a Catholic church during mass.
8/27/2010         Iraq         Mosul         1         0         The body of a Christian man is found several days after he is kidnapped.
8/25/2010         Pakistan         Swat         3         6         Three Christian aid workers helping flood victims are kidnapped and murdered by Islamic fundamentalists.
8/21/2010         Ethiopia         Addis Ababa         0         1         A popular church leader is brutally assaulted by Muslims with wooden clubs.
8/14/2010         Egypt         Shimi         0         11         Eleven Christians are injured in assaults by Muslims stirred to anger by a local cleric.
8/8/2010         Indonesia         Bekasi         0         12         A mob of hundreds of Muslims chase and beat Christian worshippers after disrupting their service.
8/7/2010         Afghanistan         Nuristan         10         0         Ten members of a medical team, including Christian doctors, are pulled out of their cars and executed by devout Muslim fundamentalists, who spare an Afghan able to recite the Quran.
7/22/2010         Pakistan         Rawalpindi         0         2         Two Christian girls are gang-raped by Muslims.
7/21/2010         Somalia         Mogadishu         1         4         Islamic militants enter a Christian home, gun down the father in front of the family and kidnap his wife and children.
7/19/2010         Pakistan         Faislabad         2         1         Two Christian brothers who were pastors, are accused of blasphemy and then brutally gunned down outside a courthouse while in chains.
7/17/2010         Nigeria         Jos         10         14         Young children are among ten Christians hacked to death in their homes by Muslims, who also burn a church.
7/16/2010         Ethiopia         Addis Ababa         0         1         A Christian convert is brutally beaten by angry Muslims.
7/16/2010         Dagestan         Makhachkala         1         0         A Pentecostal pastor and father of five is shot in the head by Muslim extremists.
7/15/2010         Pakistan         Sukkur         5         6         Five members of a church, including the pastor are brutally shot to death outside the building by Religion of Peace advocates.
7/13/2010         Pakistan         Karachi         0         1         A Christian woman is raped and then thrown from a roof by a Muslim doctor.
7/5/2010         Nigeria         Jos         3         0         Three Christian farmers are brutally slain in a 'mindless' attack by militant Muslims.
7/5/2010         Iraq         Mosul         1         0         A 54-year-old Christian father of three bleeds to death after Islamists bomb his car in a targeted attack.
7/5/2010         Egypt         Cairo         0         1         A Christian convert survives an attempt by Muslim radicals to behead him for leaving the faith.
7/4/2010         India         Kerala         0         1         A Christian professor has his forearm and hand hacked off by Muslims for the alleged crime of insulting Muhammad.
7/4/2010         Nigeria         Ganawuri         3         0         Muslims hack three Christians to death.
7/3/2010         Nigeria         Kizachi         7         5         A school teacher and mother of six are among seven Christians brutally executed in their homes by Muslim raiders.
7/1/2010         Somalia         Hudur         1         0         A Christian convert from Islam is publicly executed in a soccer stadium by Islamists, leaving behind a pregnant widow.
6/21/2010         Pakistan         Punjab         5         0         Religious clerics lead a mob into the home of a Christian man and slaughter his wife and four children.
6/14/2010         Pakistan         Peshawar         0         1         A Christian professor is badly beaten by his students for refusing to embrace Islam.
6/14/2010         Iraq         Sammarah         1         0         A convert to Christianity is murdered by his own son and nephew for 'abandoning Islam'.
6/8/2010         Iraq         Kirkuk         1         0         A Christian father is murdered outside his home by Islamist gunmen.
6/3/2010         Pakistan         Sahiwal         0         3         A pastor and his pregnant wife are brutally assaulted by angry Muslims accusing them of evangelism.
6/3/2010         Turkey         Iskenderun         1         0         A Catholic bishop is stabbed to death by a Muslim who says it was Allah's will.
5/28/2010         Pakistan         Faisalabad         0         5         Muslims fire into a Christian community, hitting five innocents.
5/23/2010         Nigeria         Jos         2         0         Two Christians are hacked to death with machetes by passing Muslims.
5/11/2010         Iraq         Baghdad         5         16         A Christian community may have been the target of a double bombing that leaves five dead.
5/4/2010         Somalia         Xarardheere         1         0         Islamists pull a 57-year-old Christian father of three from his home and execute him for running an underground church.
5/2/2010         Iraq         Mosul         4         171         Four people are killed, and over one-hundred injured when Islamic bombers target buses carrying young Christian students.
4/28/2010         Pakistan         Quetta         1         0         A Christian man is gunned down by suspected Muslim militants as he is washing a car.
4/24/2010         Nigeria         Jos         5         0         Three Christians stabbed to death and two others hacked to pieces with machetes by a Muslim mob.
4/24/2010         Pakistan         Karachi         1         0         A Christian police officer is kidnapped and brutally tortured to death by Religion of Peace advocates.
4/21/2010         Pakistan         Sargodha         1         1         Two young Christian brothers (ages 12 and 14) are

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: bobad
Date: 19 Oct 13 - 10:21 AM

4/14/2010         USA         Marquette Park, IL         5         2         After quarrelling with his wife over Islamic dress, a Muslim convert shoots his family members to 'take them back to Allah' and out of the 'world of sinners'.
4/13/2010         Philippines         Isabela         9         7         Abu Sayyaf terrorists disguised as policemen attack a Christian town, shooting and blasting nine people to death and destroying a Catholic church.
4/13/2010         Pakistan         Sargodha         0         1         A Christian barber is badly beaten and sodomized by an angry mob for cutting a Muslim's beard (on request).
4/8/2010         Nigeria         Dakyo         2         0         A teenager is among two Christians stabbed to death by Muslim attackers.
4/5/2010         Nigeria         Jos         3         12         Three Christians are killed when their peaceful rally is attacked by militant Muslims.
4/4/2010         Pakistan         Punjab         0         10         Ten Christians are severely beaten by Muslim fundamentalists.
3/28/2010         Iraq         Mosul         1         3         A 3-year-old child dies when Mujahideen bombers target a Christian woman and her three daughters in their home.
3/23/2010         Somalia         Afgoye         1         0         Islamists execute a Christian father of ten children at close range in front of his home.
3/22/2010         Pakistan         Rawalpindi         1         1         A Christian dies after being burned alive three days earlier for refusing to embrace Islam. His wife was also raped.
3/17/2010         Nigeria         Dyie         13         6         Thirteen more Christian villagers are massacred by Muslim raiders in an overnight attack, including a mother and two children burned to death. Victims also had their tongues cut out.
3/17/2010         Iraq         Mosul         1         0         A 55-year-old Christian father is shot down in cold blood.
3/15/2010         Somalia         Mahaday         1         0         The Christian pastor of an underground church is hunted down like an animal by Islamists and shot to death. (He was not a convert to Islam).
3/12/2010         Egypt         Marsa Matruh         0         23         Twenty-three Christians are injured when a Muslim mob attacks their community after rumors of a church construction.
3/10/2010         Pakistan         Oghi         6         0         Six aid workers of a Christian charity are herded out of their office by Muslim gunmen and machine-gunned to death.
3/9/2010         Pakistan         Punjab         1         0         A 36-year-old Christian is hacked to death with an ax after refusing to embrace Islam.
3/7/2010         Nigeria         Dogo Nahauwa         528         600         Over five-hundred Christians, mostly women and children, are hacked to death by Muslim raiders with machetes in a night-time attack on their village. The killers yelled 'Allah Akbar,' as they chopped.
3/7/2010         Pakistan         Lahore         1         0         A Christian man dies during a home invasion by Muslim gunmen.
2/27/2010         Philippines         Tubigan         15         13         Women and five children (ages 1 to 11) are among thirteen gunned down by Moro Islamists sweeping through a Christian village.
2/27/2010         Egypt         Teleda         0         2         A pastor and his wife are brutally gunned down by Religion of Peace advocate, angry that they are trying to build a church.
2/26/2010         Liberia         Voinjama         4         23         A Muslim mob burns churches and kills at least four Christians.
2/26/2010         Pakistan         Lahore         0         3         A Christian family is terrorized in their home by a Muslim gang. One girl is raped and the other stabbed four times.
2/23/2010         Iraq         Mosul         3         0         A Christian father and his two sons are murdered in their home. They were relatives of a priest.
2/20/2010         Iraq         Mosul         1         0         A 57-year-old Christian shopkeeper is kidnapped and brutally shot to death by Muslim kidnappers.
2/20/2010         Bangladesh         Baghaichhari         8         200         At least eight people are killed when Muslim villagers riot against Christian and Buddhist neighbors.
2/17/2010         Iraq         Mosul         1         0         Another young Christian is shot to death by Muslim extremists.
2/15/2010         Iraq         Mosul         1         0         A 42-year-old Christian is shot to death in front of his store.
2/15/2010         Iraq         Mosul         1         0         A 20-year-old Christian student is kidnapped and brutally murdered by Mujahideen.
2/14/2010         Iraq         Mosul         1         1         Islamists enter a Christian businessman's home and murder him.
2/9/2010         Egypt         Menoufia         1         0         A young Christian carpenter is gunned down at close range by a Muslim policeman in a suspected sectarian attack.
2/8/2010         Pakistan         Punjab         0         1         A Christian man is beaten unconscious for refusing to embrace Islam.
2/5/2010         Pakistan         Karachi         33         80         A Christian family and dozens of Shiites are blown to bits by Sunni bombers at two locations, one a hospital.
1/26/2010         Iraq         Mosul         0         1         A Christian shopkeeper is targeted by Muslim gunmen and seriously injured.
1/22/2010         Bangladesh         Netrokona         0         2         A Catholic humanitarian worker and his wife are attacked by a gang of Muslims.
1/22/2010         Pakistan         Lahore         1         0         A 12-year-old Christian girl is raped, tortured and killed by her Muslim employer, a respected lawyer.
1/19/2010         Somalia         Mogadishu         19         30         Women and children are among nineteen killed when Islamists launch multiple assaults on 'apostates and Christian backers.'
1/18/2010         Iraq         Mosul         1         0         Islamic terrorists gun down a Christian man inside a grocery.
1/17/2010         Nigeria         Jos         48         96         Muslim youth go on a rampage, hacking about 48 Christians to death after an attack outside a church. The victims include two pastors.
1/17/2010         Iraq         Mosul         2         0         At least one of two men gunned down in a targeted shooting is a Christian father of two.
1/15/2010         Kenya         Nairobi         1         5         A Muslim gunmen fires into a crowd, killing one Christian and injuring five.
1/12/2010         Iraq         Mosul         1         0         A 75-year-old Christian is gunned down in his grocery story by Religion of Peace militants.
1/11/2010         Iraq         Mosul         1         0         A 51-year-old Christian man is brutally gunned down while selling vegetables by the side of the road.
1/7/2010         Egypt         Nag Hamadi         7         10         Six worshippers and one guard are gunned down by Muslim radicals as they leave mass at a Christian church. A 14-year-old is among the dead.
1/1/2010         Somalia         Hodan         1         0         Islamists murder a 41-year-old Christian convert and church leader.
12/26/2009         Pakistan         Punjab         0         2         Two young Christians are shot in the chest after refusing to convert to Islam.
12/25/2009         Pakistan         Kalar Kahar         0         60         About sixty Christians are injured when a Muslim mob attacks them during Christmas prayers.
12/24/2009         Pakistan         Peshawar         4         24         A suicide bomber detonates near a Christian school, killing four others.
12/24/2009         Iraq         Mosul         1         0         A Christian is gunned down in front of his home by Islamists.
12/23/2009         Iraq         Mosul         2         0         A bomb placed near an ancient Christian church kills two people.
12/17/2009         Iraq         Mosul         1         0         A 30-year-old Christian man is shot to death in cold blood by Mujahideen.
12/15/2009         Iraq         Mosul         4         40         Four Christians are killed when Islamic bombers target a church and Christian school.
12/9/2009         Iraq         Mosul         2         0         Two Christian brothers are kidnapped and shot to death by Muslim terrorists.
12/3/2009         Pakistan         Karol         1         0         A Christian man is shot to death by Muslims after refusing to 'embrace' Islam.
11/19/2009         Russia         Moscow         1         1         An anti-Islam priest is assassinated in his own church by a suspected Muslim gunman.
11/14/2009         Iraq         Mosul         1         0         A 16-year-old Christian boy is gunned down outside his home by suspected radicals.
11/14/2009         Somalia         Mogadishu         1         0         A 23-year-old Christian convert is kidnapped by Islamists and executed with two shots to the head.
11/9/2009         Philippines         Jolo         1         0         Abu Sayyaf militants cut the head off of a Christian school principal and leave it in a paper bag at a gas station.
10/19/2009         Somalia         Galkayo         1         0         A Christian woman is murdered by Islamists inside her home for refusing to wear a veil.
10/18/2009         Egypt         Attaleen         1         0         Muslims gun down a 61-year-old Christian whose son was dating a Muslim girl.
10/10/2009         Somalia         Mogadishu         1         0         A Christian pastor is shot to death by al-Shabaab militants as he is returning home.
10/5/2009         Iraq         Kirkuk         1         0         The tortured body of a Christian businessman is discovered three days after being kidnapped by Muslims.
10/4/2009         Iraq         Kirkuk         1         0         A 55-year-old Christian nurse is kidnapped and tortured to death by Religion of Peace militants.
9/28/2009         Somalia         Marerey         1         0         A 46-year-old Christian woman is shot to death by Islamists after being found with Bibles.
9/16/2009         Egypt         Bagur         1         2         A 63-year-old Christian is stabbed to death by a rampaging Muslim.
9/15/2009         Somalia         Merca         1         0         A 69-year-old Christian is executed by al-Shabaab militants after they find him carrying Bibles through their checkpoint.
9/14/2009         Pakistan         Sialkot         1         0         A young Christian is beaten to death after being arrested for blasphemy.
9/13/2009         Bangladesh         Dhaka         1         0         A Christian evangelist dies from injuries suffered from severe torture at the hands of a Muslim gang.
9/12/2009         Bangladesh         Dhaka         1         0         A group of Muslims brutally torture and murder a young Christian student.
9/11/2009         Ethiopia         Senbete         0         3         A Muslim mob ransacks two Christian churches and seriously injures three Christian worshippers.
8/29/2009         Sudan         Wernyol         43         62         An Islamic-backed militia targets Christian villagers, hacking or shooting at least 43 to death including a senior church leader.
8/28/2009         Pakistan         Quetta         6         7         Six Christians are gunned down after refusing a 'convert or die' offer from Islamists.
8/19/2009         Iraq         Kirkuk         0         0         Islamic militants kidnap and murder a Christian doctor.
8/18/2009         Somalia         Bulahawa         1         0         A 41-year-old Christian is hunted down and shot to death for leaving Islam.
8/15/2009         Egypt         Cairo         1         0         A 22-year-old Christian conscript is murdered in his barracks after suffering horrible abuse over his religion.
8/3/2009         Pakistan         Gorja         1         0         A Christian man succumbs to injuries suffered by a Muslim mob attack.
8/1/2009         Pakistan         Gojra         8         18         Eight Christians are burned alive by a mob angered over a rumor of Qur'an desecration.
7/30/2009         Pakistan         Gojra City         7         19         Seven people, including women and children (the youngest of whom was 4), are burned alive when a Muslim mob rampages through a Christian community over rumors of a Qur'an desecration.
7/28/2009         Nigeria         Maiduguri         3         0         Three Christian pastors are kidnapped by Boko Harem Islamists and then beheaded after they refuse to accept Islam.
7/28/2009         Nigeria         Maiduguri         1         0         Islamists pull a Christian man from his home and slit his throat.
7/27/2009         Nigeria         Maiduguri         1         0         A Christian pastor and father of seven is hacked to death by radical Muslims, who then burn down his church.
7/27/2009         Somalia         Merca         4         0         Four Christian orphanage workers are beheaded by Islamists after declining the offer to return to Islam.
7/26/2009         Iraq         Ninewa         1         0         A Christian worker is murdered at a Pepsi plant by Islamic gunmen.
7/23/2009         Eritrea         Mitire         1         0         A 43-year-old man dies from torture after refusing to renounce his Christian faith.
7/20/2009         Turkey         Istanbul         1         0         A Christian is stabbed shortly after leaving a church by a Muslim who said he just 'wanted to kill a Christian.'
7/20/2009         Somalia         Mahadday Weyne         1         0         A father of two is shot to death by Muslims for leaving Islam and becoming a Christian.
7/12/2009         Iraq         Kirkuk         1         0         A Christian man is pulled from his car and murdered in front of his daughter.
7/12/2009         Iraq         Baghdad         4         33         Four people are killed when Islamists place bombs at four Christian churches.
7/10/2009         Somalia         Baidoa         7         0         al-Shabaab Islamists stage the public beheading of seven people for "being Christian."
7/7/2009         Pakistan         Lahore         0         1         A Christian man is crippled by a Muslim, who shoots him eight times in the legs for refusing to pay Jizya.
7/7/2009         Philippines         Jolo         2         27         Abu Sayyaf militants detonate a bomb outside a second Christian church, killing two innocents.
7/5/2009         Philippines         Cotabato         6         44         A Religion of Peace nail bomb outside a Christian church leaves at least six innocents dead.
7/3/2009         Ethiopia         Dessie         2         0         Two Christians are shot to death by Muslim gunmen while working on a church.
7/1/2009         Pakistan         Faisalabad         0         1         A young Christian is brutally tortured by a Muslim mob on charges of desecrating a Qur'an.
7/1/2009         Pakistan         Lahore         0         15         Fifteen Christian women and children are burned when a Muslim mob throws acid on them.
7/1/2009         Pakistan         Ghaziabad         1         0         A 16-year-old Christian boy is tortured to death in a police station.
6/22/2009         Philippines         Maguindanao         1         4         Moro Islamists storm a village and shoot a 15-year-old Christian boy dead.
6/21/2009         Egypt         El-Fashn         0         22         A Muslim mob assaults a Christian church, smashing and slashing until at least twenty-two worshippers lay injured.
6/19/2009         Pakistan         Ittanwali         0         3         A Christian woman's family is beaten, including two young children, after she refuses to embrace Islam.
6/18/2009         Iraq         Mosul         1         0         A Christian is gunned down by Muslim gunmen in the process of kidnapping another Christian.
6/15/2009         Yemen         Sanaa         9         0         Women and children are among nine foreign missionaries kidnapped and executed by Shiite fundamentalists.
6/13/2009         Pakistan         Bahawalpur         0         10         Ten Christians are injured by a Muslim package bomb.
6/8/2009         Bangladesh         Boalia         0         3         Three Christians, including a pastor, are pulled from their church and tortured for their faith with burning cigarettes and wooden clubs.
6/8/2009         Pakistan         Tiasar         1         0         An 11-year-old boy is shot in the head when the Taliban attack his church.
5/18/2009         Philippines         Basilan         1         0         The beheaded body of a 61-year-old Christian farmer is found following his abduction by Islamic militants.
5/15/2009         Pakistan         Punjab         1         0         A Christian man is raped and murdered for refusing to convert to Islam.
5/15/2009         Iraq         Mosul         1         0         A Christian is kidnapped and beheaded.
5/11/2009         Iraq         Mosul         1         0         Muslim kidnappers murder a 5-year-old Christian boy.
5/9/2009         Pakistan         Machharkay         1         0         A Christian man is beaten to death with pipes by Muslims angry that he drank tea at a 'Muslim-only' establishment.
4/26/2009         Iraq         Kirkuk         2         0         Islamists slit the throats of a Christian woman and her daughter-in-law.
4/26/2009         Iraq         Kirkuk         1         2         A Christian man is gunned down by Mujahid.
4/25/2009         Iraq         Tal Keef         1         0         A Christian woman is abducted and beheaded by Islamic radicals.
4/21/2009         Pakistan         Taseer         3         0         A mob of Islamic hardliners invade a Christian neighborhood and terrorize the residents. Two Christians are killed as they attempt to defend women from rape. An 11-year-old boy dies a few days later.
4/19/2009         Iraq         Baghdad         3         0         Three Christian jewelers are brutally murdered in their shop by Muslim gunmen.
4/13/2009         Philippines         Basilan         1         0         Abu Sayyaf terrorists behead a kidnapped Christian.
4/10/2009         Philippines         Basilan         1         8         Muslim terrorists attack a Christian village, killing one and kidnapping several young children.
4/4/2009         Iraq         Mosul         1         0         A Christian repairman is shot to death by Muslim gunmen in front of his workshop.
4/3/2009         Philippines         Basilan         2         8         A woman is among two people killed when Islamic militants bomb a fast food shop near a Catholic cathedral.
4/2/2009         Iraq         Baghdad         2         0         Two older Christian sisters are murdered by Mujahideen gunmen.
4/1/2009         Iraq         Mashtal         1         0         A Christian man is gunned down in front of his restaurant by Islamic terrorists.
3/31/2009         Iraq         Kirkuk         1         0         A 71-year-old Christian man is killed in his own home by Muslim intruders.
3/31/2009         Iraq         Kirkuk         1         0         An elderly Christian is gunned down by Muslim radicals.
3/15/2009         UK         London         0         1         A Christian minister critical of Islam is brutally beaten by local Muslims.
3/5/2009         Egypt         Qalubiya         2         0         Muslims set a young Christian on fire and also stab his 60-year-old father to death.
3/2/2009         Pakistan         Songo         1         28         Muslim radicals open fire on a Presbyterian church, then enter the building and beat a 45 woman to death.
2/21/2009         Nigeria         Bauchi         11         38         A Muslim mob goes on a rampage, burning churches and killing Christians.
2/21/2009         Somalia         Yonday         2         0         Two young Christian boys (ages 11 and 12) are beheaded by Religion of Peace extremists.
2/19/2009         Iraq         Mosul         1         0         A Christian businessman is gunned down in his shop.
2/17/2009         Iraq         Mosul         1         1         A Christian is gunned down by suspected Islamists.
2/9/2009         Afghanistan         Kabul         1         0         An Indian Christian, who worked for a food chain, is reported dead four months after being abducted by Sunni extremists.
2/8/2009         Afghanistan         Kabul         1         0         The Taliban release a video showing the beheading of a kidnapped Polish Christian who declined the offer to save his life by converting to Islam.
2/1/2009         Pakistan         Shajwal Chak         1         0         A Christian man begging for wages owed is murdered by Muslim employers as they deride his faith.
1/16/2009         Iraq         Mosul         1         0         The local Christian owner of a car repair shop is brutally murdered by Islamic terrorists.
1/16/2009         Eritrea         Mitire         1         0         A 42-year-old man dies after being tortured iin prison for his Christian faith.
1/10/2009         Pakistan         Chak         0         1         Six Muslim men gang-rape a 14-year-old girl in front of her parents because they are Christian.
1/5/2009         Eritrea         Mitire         1         0         A 37-year-old man dies from torture after refusing to recant his Christian faith.
12/30/2008         Egypt         Cairo         0         1         A woman who embraced Christianity is arrested, raped and tortuted by police, who promise to release her if she will return to Islam.
12/30/2008         Philippines         Esperanza         1         0         A 17-year-old Christian taxi driver is killed by a bomb planted by Muslim radicals.
12/18/2008         Philippines         Iligan         3         47         Islamists detonate nail-packed bombs at two shopping malls in Christian areas, killing at least three people.
11/28/2008         Nigeria         Jos         2         0         Two Christians are macheted to death after a cleric inspires his followers to 'kill unbelievers."
11/28/2008         Nigeria         Jos         6         0         Six Christian pastors are among hundreds killed when Muslim rioter stage a deadly church-burning rampage.
11/12/2008         Iraq         Mosul         2         0         Two Christian sisters are shot to death inside their home by Muslim militants.
10/22/2008         Iraq         Mosul         2         0         Two Christians, a father and son, are shot to death by Islamic radicals.
10/20/2008         Afghanistan         Kabul         1         0         A female aid worker is shot to death by Sunni extremists over fears that she was sharing her Christian faith.
10/14/2008         Philippines         North Cotabato         1         0         Moro Islamists attack a Christian village, killing one civilian and driving many families from their homes.
10/12/2008         Iraq         Mosul         1         1         A Christian business owner is gunned down in his music store by Islamic fundamentalists.
10/11/2008         Philippines         Sultan Kudarat         5         5         Moro Islamists attack a Christian village, killing five innocents and kidnapping two others for use as human shields.
10/11/2008         Iraq         Mosul         3         0         The bodies of three Christians are discovered following their abduction by Islamic radicals.
10/10/2008         Iraq         Mosul         2         0         Two Christians are shot to death by Islamists at a roadblock after being forced to identify themselves.
10/8/2008         Iraq         Mosul         2         0         Two more Christians are murdered by Muslim extremists in separate attacks.
10/7/2008         Iraq         Mosul         2         0         A Christian man and his elderly father are shot to death at their workplace by Religion of Peace radicals.
10/7/2008         Iraq         Mosul         1         0         Islamic extremists enter a Christian pharmacy and kill the owner.
10/6/2008         Iraq         Mosul         1         0         A disabled Christian is abducted from his shop by Islamists and then shot to death.
10/5/2008         Egypt         al-Tayeba         1         3         A 19-year-old Christian is shot to death by a Muslim mob.
10/4/2008         Iraq         Tahrir         1         0         A 15-year-old Christian boy is shot to death by Mujahideen while standing outside his home.
10/4/2008         Iraq         Mosul         4         0         Islamists enter a Christian store and murder the owner. Three tortured and executed kidnap victims are found elsewhere.
9/28/2008         Somalia         Tayeglow         0         2         Two Christians are seriously injured when a Muslim mob invades their church with spears and machetes.
9/23/2008         Somalia         Manyafulka         1         0         A Christian is beheaded for leaving Islam by men who read the Qur'an aloud before decapitating him.
9/20/2008         Ethiopia         Addis Ababa         0         1         A 35-year-old Christian leaders is nearly beaten to death by Religion of Peace advocates.
9/14/2008         Somalia         Afgoye         1         0         A 22-year-old Christian is casually shot to death at a wedding after being accused of apostasy.
9/14/2008         Kenya         Garissa         0         10         A Muslim mob storms a church during a service, pelting worshippers with stones and injuring ten.
9/10/2008         Iraq         Mosul         1         0         A Christian man is shot to death by Muslim fundamentalists.
9/2/2008         Iraq         Mosul         1         0         Islamic fundamentalists abduct and murder a 65-year-old Christian doctor.
8/31/2008         Iraq         Mosul         1         0         A Christian man is kidnapped and murdered by Islamic fundamentalists.
8/30/2008         Angola         Andulo         1         40         A young girl is decapitated by Muslims rampaging through a Christian community on a church-burning spree. (Reported)
8/18/2008         Philippines         Mindanao         49         50         Forty-nine Christian villagers are shot or hacked to death by Moro Islamists rampaging through three towns.
8/13/2008         Saudi Arabia         Riyadh         1         0         A Christian girl has her tongue cut out and is then burned alive by her father for leaving Islam.
8/12/2008         Philippines         Basilan         4         0         At least four Catholic civilians are killed when Moro Islamists strafe their homes with gunfire.
8/10/2008         Saudi Arabia         Riyadh         1         0         A 26-year-old woman has her tongue cut out, then is set on fire by her father (a moral policeman) for converting to Christianity.
7/29/2008         Philippines         Mindanao         4         1         Four Christian passengers are pulled from a bus and murdered by Islamic terrorists.
7/26/2008         Indonesia         Jakarata         0         265         Over two-hundred people are injured when a Muslim mob storms a Christian school.
7/25/2008         Pal. Auth.         Gaza         1         3         A bomb set outside a Christian cafe kills one person.
7/19/2008         Ethiopia         Jijiga         0         2         Two former Muslims who converted to Christianity are attacked by a stone-throwing mob of Muslims.
7/16/2008         Somalia         Anjel         1         0         A Muslim gang murders a Christian man.
7/16/2008         Pakistan         Lahore         1         0         A teenaged Christian boy is kidnapped, tortured for two days, then killed by Muslims for dating a Muslim girl.
7/10/2008         Somalia         Afgyoye         1         0         Islamists with automatic weapons shoot a Christian man to death for not praying toward Mecca.
7/1/2008         Philippines         Aleosan       

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: bobad
Date: 19 Oct 13 - 10:23 AM

7/1/2008         Philippines         Aleosan         1         0         A Christian man is shot to death after refusing to give up his property to Moro Islamic Front raiders.
6/18/2008         Iraq         Nineveh         12         0         A report surfaces of a dozen Christian children kidnapped and crucified by Muslim extremists over the course of five years.
6/3/2008         Indonesia         Jakarta         0         12         Radical Muslims with machetes attack a group of Christians at a religious tolerance rally, shouting 'Repent or die!'
5/4/2008         Pakistan         Hafizabad         1         0         A 19-year-old Christian is tortured and killed for having a relationship with a Muslim woman.
5/2/2008         Indonesia         Horale         3         0         A Muslim mob rampages through a Christian village, killing three people and setting fire to churches and homes.
4/5/2008         Iraq         Karradah         1         0         A Christian priest is shot to death by Muslim fanatics.
3/13/2008         Iraq         Mosul         1         0         A Christian archbishop is killed while in the captivity of Muslim militants.
2/29/2008         Iraq         Mosul         3         0         Three Christians are killed trying to unsuccessfully protect their archbishop from an abduction.
2/28/2008         Germany         Odenwald         3         0         Muslims ask three innocent Christians to identify their religion, then brutally execute them.
2/5/2008         Bangladesh         Rangpur         1         0         A convert to Christianity dies from burns suffered when a Muslim mob set fire to her house four weeks earlier.
2/1/2008         Bangladesh         Cinatuly         1         0         An elderly Christian woman dies from burn suffered when a Muslim mob set fire to her home for converting her family members.
1/29/2008         Pakistan         Punjab         1         0         A 16-year-old Christian is kidnapped and sold for organ harvesting.
1/17/2008         Pakistan         Peshawar         1         0         A Christian man (and father of an infant daughter) is brutally gunned down by masked men.
1/15/2008         Philippines         Mindanao         1         0         A priest resists a kidnapping attempt by Abu Sayyaf terrorists and is shot to death in his chapel.
1/11/2008         Pakistan         Sheikhupura         1         0         A 13-year-old Christian boy is targeted and killed by Muslim gunmen.
12/16/2007         Turkey         Barakli         0         1         A 65-year-old priest is stabbed during mass by a young Muslim angered over Christian "proselytizing."
12/12/2007         Lebanon         Baabda         2         10         Muslims militants assassinate a military general with a bomb blast in a Christian neighborhood.
12/11/2007         Iraq         Basra         2         0         Islamic radicals kill a Christian brother and sister, then dump their bodies at a garbage site.
12/9/2007         Iraq         Mosul         1         0         A Christian girl is shot to death at a marketplace by Islamists.
10/23/2007         UK         Leeds         1         0         A 19-year-old Catholic girl is stabbed to death by a Muslim who said she was too 'sexually provocative.'
10/13/2007         Nigeria         Gamji Gate         2         0         Two young Christians are murdered by Muslim radicals in separate attacks. One is beaten to death and the other hacked with a sword.
10/13/2007         Nigeria         Bauchi         10         0         Ten Christians are killed by a Muslim mob rampaging through a village. Three churches are burned down as well.
10/7/2007         Pal. Auth.         Gaza         1         0         A Christian bookseller is abducted and stabbed to death by Islamic fundamentalists.
9/29/2007         Nigeria         Kano         10         61         Ten Christians, including a Catholic priest, are murdered over a two day period by a Muslim mob, angered over a cartoon written by one of their own. Churches are burned as well.
9/28/2007         Iraq         Qaraqush         1         0         A Christian college student is shot nine times by Islamic terrorists.
9/19/2007         Lebanon         Beirut         9         30         Muslim bombers assassinate an anti-Syrian political leader and eight others in a Christian neighborhood.
9/9/2007         India         Kolkata         1         0         A Muslim is murdered for his intention to convert to Hinduism.
8/29/2007         Pakistan         Islamabad         2         0         A Christian pastor had his wife are brutally murdered in their home by Muslim gunmen.
8/3/2007         Philippines         Koronadal         1         12         A Christian pastor is killed in a bus bombing by a group linked to the Moro Islamic terror group.
7/31/2007         Afghanistan         Kabul         1         0         The Taliban murder a 29-year-old Christian man taken hostage.
7/30/2007         Pakistan         Punjab         1         0         A Christian man is shot to death by two Muslims.
7/25/2007         Afghanistan         Kandahar         1         0         The Taliban shoot a Christian man to death.
7/22/2007         Lebanon         Tanbourit         1         4         Shiites shoot Christian villagers who complained of harassment.
7/18/2007         Philippines         Lamitan         1         0         A Sunni missionary is dismembered by Abu Sayyaf militants on suspicion of spying.
7/16/2007         Ingushetia         Ordzhonikidzevskaya         3         7         A Christian woman and her two children are murdered in their home by Islamic gunmen. Seven mourners are injured when their funeral is bombed two days later.
7/10/2007         Philippines         Basilan         14         9         Abu Sayyaf militants kill 14 members of a search party looking for a kidnapped priest. At least ten are beheaded.
6/27/2007         Iraq         Mosul         2         0         Two Christians are murdered by Sunni radicals.
6/26/2007         Bangladesh         Nilphamari         0         10         Ten Christian converts from Islam are savagely beaten by a Muslim mob.
6/12/2007         Iraq         Razaliyah         1         0         A Christian father of two young children is kidnapped and killed when he refuses to accept Islam.
6/8/2007         Indonesia         Pekanbaru         1         0         A Christian schoolteacher is shot to death in front of his 9-year-old son by Muslim extremists.
6/7/2007         Lebanon         Beirut         1         0         Muslim bombers take out one Christian civilian and injure four others.
6/3/2007         Iraq         Mosul         4         0         Islamists shoot a Catholic priest and three other Christians to death as they are leaving a church.
5/20/2007         Lebanon         Beirut         1         10         A 63-year-old woman is killed in a bomb attack on a Christian neighborhood.
5/11/2007         Egypt         Behma         0         10         Ten Christians are injured as a Muslim mob rampages through their neighborhood, enraged over the construction of a church.
4/30/2007         Ethiopia         Jijiga         2         3         Two Christians are killed when Muslims bomb a tent gathering.
4/27/2007         Sudan         Gnaya         4         5         Four Christians, including a boy, are shot to death by radical Muslims after showing a 'Jesus' film in a village.
4/19/2007         Philippines         Parang         7         0         Seven Christian laborers are kidnapped and beheaded by Moro Islamists.
4/18/2007         Turkey         Malatya         3         3         Three Christians working at a Bible distribution company are brutally tortured and murdered by local Islamists. All three had their throats cut.
4/15/2007         India         Pulwama         1         0         A Christian church worker is kidnapped, brutally tortured and then beheaded by the Mujahideen.
3/26/2007         Iraq         Kirkuk         2         0         Two elderly nuns, aged 79 and 85, are stabbed to death in their home.
3/21/2007         Nigeria         Gombe         1         0         A female Christian teacher is attacked and killed by her students, who accused her of 'desecrating' the Qur'an.
2/20/2007         USA         Nashville, TN         0         1         A Muslim cab driver runs over a Christian after arguing about religion. The young man's ankle and hip are broken by the vehicle.
2/14/2007         Iraq         Baghdad         4         10         Four Christians are killed in an Islamic car bombing of their hospital.
2/13/2007         Lebanon         Bikfaya         3         19         Following threats by Islamic groups, two coordinated bomb blasts rip through a Christian town, killing at least three persons.
1/5/2007         Ethiopia         Kofele         1         0         A Christian is beaten to death by Muslims with a metal bar.
12/14/2006         India         Mamoosa         1         0         A convert to Christianity, and father of four, is gunned down in broad daylight by Islamic radicals.
12/3/2006         Iraq         Mosul         1         0         A 69-year-old Christian church leader is kidnapped and murdered by Islamic extremists.
11/21/2006         India         Mamoosa         1         0         A 50-year-old Christian convert is gunned down by members of his former religion.
11/21/2006         Lebanon         Beirut         1         0         A Christian leader is gunned down by Muslim terrorists supported by Syria.
10/31/2006         Pakistan         Azad Kashmir         1         0         A Christian missionary is shot to death by Islamic radicals.
10/21/2006         Iraq         Baqubah         1         0         A 14-year-old Christian boy is abducted and beheaded by Muslim extremists.
10/17/2006         Eritrea         Adi-Quala         2         0         Two Christians are arrested and tortured to death for hosting a church meeting.
10/16/2006         Indonesia         Sulawesi         1         0         A Christian priest is murdered by Muslim gunmen in front of his wife.
10/14/2006         Ethiopia         Beshasha         6         15         A mob of 300 Muslims attack a group of unarmed Christians worshipping at a church, murdering at least six of them - including two priests.
10/11/2006         Iraq         Baghdad         1         0         A Christian priest is abducted and decapitated by Muslim extremists. The head is not found with the body.
10/4/2006         Iraq         Baghdad         16         87         Jihadis bomb a Christian district, killing sixteen innocents and injuring many dozens more.
10/1/2006         Ethiopia         Jimma         10         12         Ten people are killed, more than a dozen injured, and at least two churches burned down as Muslims attempt to ban a Christian ceremony.
10/1/2006         Indonesia         Poso         0         1         A Christian man is pulled off a bus and stabbed by a Muslim mob.
9/30/2006         Pakistan         Bahawlnagar         1         0         A Christian is killed by authorities who arrest and imprison him for 'blaspheming' Islam.
9/24/2006         Iraq         Baghdad         2         17         Radical Muslims place bombs outside a Christian cathedral, intending to kill worshippers. Two people, including a child, are killed.
9/17/2006         Somalia         Mogadishu         2         0         A 70-year-old nun working at a children's' hospital is shot to death by radical Muslims, along with a guard.
9/16/2006         Iraq         Baghdad         1         0         Muslims stab a Christian to death in a marketplace in retaliation for the pope's remarks.
9/15/2006         Iraq         Baghdad         1         0         A Christian is killed when radical Muslims attack a Catholic church.
9/9/2006         Indonesia         Poso         1         0         A young Christian woman is killed when Islamic radicals throw a bomb at her house.
9/7/2006         Somalia         Mogadishu         1         0         A young college student is murdered after converting from Islam to Christianity.
9/6/2006         Indonesia         Tangkuran         1         0         A Christian is killed in a bombing attack by militant Muslims.
9/5/2006         Lebanon         Rmeileh         4         4         Four members of a detail investigating a Christian's death are themselves killed in a bombing by Muslim radicals.
9/1/2006         Pakistan         Neelum Valley         2         3         Two Christian children of missionaries are brutally murdered. The girl had her breast cut off and was raped.
8/19/2006         Egypt         Cairo         1         0         A Christian cobbler is stabbed to death by an angry Muslim.
7/5/2006         Nigeria         Kumutu         3         30         Nigerian 'Taliban' attacks Christian villagers, killing at least three.
6/30/2006         Pakistan         Gadi Wind         1         0         A group of Muslim bulldoze a Christian family's house, killing an infant.
6/8/2006         Philippines         Patikul         1         2         Islamists attack Christians at a carnival, killing one and injuring two more.
5/25/2006         Philippines         Jolo         1         0         A 32-year-old cigarette vendor is gunned down by Abu Sayyaf near a Catholic church.
5/12/2006         Kenya         Nairobi         1         2         A Christian radio station airing the testimony of Muslim apostates is targeted in a bombing attack. One guard is shot to death by the radicals.
5/11/2006         Kosovo         Kosovska Mitrovica         0         2         Two Christian youth are seriously injured when Muslims open up on them with automatic weapons.
4/16/2006         Ethiopia         Jijiga         3         23         Islamists bomb a two bars and a church, killing three people and injuring two dozen.
4/14/2006         Egypt         Alexandria         1         3         Knife-wielding Islamists attack Christians gathered outside a church, stabbing four of them. A 78-year-old man dies.
4/10/2006         Afghanistan         Badghis         5         0         Five Afghan humanitarian workers working for a Christian aid agency are slaughtered by Muslim extremists at their clinic.
3/22/2006         Ethiopia         Arisi Negellie         1         0         Muslims gun down a father of seven in front of a Lutheran church. The victim was a convert from Islam.
3/14/2006         Indonesia         Ambon         1         0         In a suspected Muslim attack, a 33-year-old Catholic nun is stabbed to death by an intruder.
3/11/2006         Iraq         Baghdad         1         0         A 'Christian Peacemaker' pacifist is kidnapped by Islamic radicals, held for three months, tortured and then shot to death.
2/24/2006         Nigeria         Potiskum         4         12         At least four Christians are clubbed to death by a Muslim mob, and five churches burned.
2/24/2006         Nigeria         Kontagora         9         27         Machete-wielding Muslims hack nine Christians apart and set fire to four churches.
2/21/2006         Nigeria         Bauchi         25         100         Muslims mobs take out their rage on Christians in yet a third Nigerian state, killing at least twenty-five and injuring over one-hundred in a two-day spree.
2/20/2006         Nigeria         Maiduguri         30         95         An additional thirty bodies are counted from the Muslim rioting against Christians over the weekend.
2/19/2006         Nigeria         Borno         7         24         Muslim mobs target Nigerian Christians in a protest against Danish cartoons. More churches are burned and seven more are killed.
2/18/2006         Nigeria         Maiduguri         21         112         Angry Muslim mobs burn churches and beat Christians to death. At least sixteen people are killed in the violence.
2/5/2006         Turkey         Trabzon         1         0         A Catholic priest is murdered by an assailant who shouts 'Allah Akbar!' after he fires the gun.
2/3/2006         Philippines         Patikul         6         5         Islamists massacre a family of Christians after confirming their religious identity. The victims included an infant and other young children.
1/29/2006         Philippines         Pulunoling         2         0         Muslims shoot a Christian couple to death as they are riding a motorcycle on their way home.
1/29/2006         Iraq         Kirkuk         3         11         Muslims target Christian churches with six car bombs, killing at least three people and injuring eleven.
1/19/2006         Egypt         Udaysaat         2         14         Muslims go on a rampage against Christians, angered by the construction of a church. Two, including a 13-year-old boy, are killed.
12/31/2005         Indonesia         Sulawesi         8         56         Eight Christians are killed when Islamists bomb a market selling pork at a time when it is packed with shoppers. The bomb was packed with nails.
12/31/2005         Pakistan         Rawalpindi         2         0         Islamic fundamentalists kill a 23-year-old Christian and his Muslim girlfriend because their relationship was against Sharia.
12/12/2005         Lebanon         Mkalles         4         30         Christian reporter is assassinated by a car bombing that kills three other people. Thirty innocents are injured in the blast.
12/4/2005         Egypt         Cairo         1         0         Christian pastor killed following threats.
11/29/2005         Iraq         Mosul         2         1         Two Christians are gunned down by Muslim militants as they are hanging campaign posters.
11/22/2005         Iran         Gonbad-e-Kavus         1         0         A Muslim convert to Christianity is stabbed to death by radical Islamists after being abducted from his home.
11/21/2005         Iraq         Baghdad         4         0         Four Christian women are killed when gunmen storm their home in the middle of the night.
11/19/2005         Indonesia         Palu         0         2         Christian couple shot by radical Muslims while on their way to church.
11/8/2005         Indonesia         Poso         1         1         Two Christian 17-year-old girls are shot in the head in a brutal attack only a few days after three others were beheaded.
10/31/2005         Nigeria         Niger Province         3         13         Three Christians are killed by Muslims in unrest following the carrying out of a Sharia sentence of amputation against a Christian.
10/29/2005         Indonesia         Bukit Bambu         3         1         Three Christian 16-year-old girls on their way to school are attacked and beheaded by six Muslim gentlemen, who leave the headless bodies in the street and carry the heads to a different location.
10/23/2005         England         Birmingham         1         1         Pakistanis stab a 24-year-old Christian man senselessly to death in what is either a racial or religious attack.
10/18/2005         Bangladesh         Narsingdi         1         0         A Hindu priest is kidnapped and murdered by Islamic extremists.
10/12/2005         Egypt         Alexandria         0         2         A nun and one other person are stabbed in front of their church by a Muslim demonstrator.
10/3/2005         Indonesia         Pantangolemba         1         0         A 53-year-old Christian is shot to death.
9/29/2005         Indonesia         Landangan         1         0         A 43-year-old Christian is shot to death.
9/23/2005         Iraq         Baghdad         4         0         Four Assyrian Christians are killed in a Muslim bomb attack on a Christian minister.
9/16/2005         Lebanon         Beirut         1         22         A bomb placed in a Christian neighborhood kills one man and injures twenty-two other people.
9/13/2005         Iraq         Mosul         1         0         A 21-year-old Christian woman is assaulted by Muslim radicals for wearing jeans. She is beaten and stabbed to death.
8/27/2005         Kosovo         Urosevac-Skopje         2         2         Two Christians are killed and two wounded when Muslim gunmen attack their car.
8/27/2005         Iraq         Mosul         1         0         A Christian is gunned down by Muslim militants.
8/25/2005         Indonesia         Ambon         0         7         A bomb set by Muslim radicals in a Christian sector of town injures seven people.
8/15/2005         Iraq         Dura         1         0         'Holy Warriors' kidnap a Christian woman and then cut off her head.
8/11/2005         Pakistan         Lahore         1         0         Islamic radicals kidnap, torture and kill a Catholic layman.
8/9/2005         Pakistan         Lahore         1         0         A Catholic layman is abducted and strangled to death by Islamic fundamentalists.
8/4/2005         Indonesia         Poso         2         0         Two witnesses who testified against the Islamic bombers behind a massacre of Christians at a market are themselves assassinated.
7/29/2005         Bangladesh         Boalmari         2         0         Two Christian charity workers are hacked to death inside their home by hard-line Islamic militants, who chained the doors shut to prevent their escape or rescue.
7/23/2005         Lebanon         Beirut         0         12         Twelve people are injured by a car bomb placed in a Christian neighborhood.
7/20/2005         India         Srinagar         6         17         Hizbul Mujahideen suicide bomber targets a missionary children's school in the Indian capital, killing at least six and injuring more than a dozen.
7/19/2005         Ethiopia         Jigjiga         1         0         Islamic militants stop a bus and force the Christians on it to repeat a Muslim creed and pray to Mecca. The one who refuses to do so is shot to death.
7/12/2005         Lebanon         Beyrouth         1         12         Muslim terrorists target a Christian politician with a bomb, but kill a civilian instead.
6/2/2005         Lebanon         Beirut         1         1         Car bombing in a Christian area of the city takes the life of a journalist who opposed Syrian hegemony.
6/2/2005         Iraq         Mosul         5         0         Thinking that they were a Christian family, Jihad gunmen spray the inside of a car with weapons fire, killing two parents and their three young children.
5/28/2005         Indonesia         Sulawesi         24         54         A priest and an infant are among the nearly two dozen Christians killed when Islamic militants detonate two bombs in the center of a village. At least sixty others are injured.
5/16/2005         Indonesia         Maluku         6         0         Five policemen and a civilian are killed by Islamic militants in Indonesia, as they were sleeping. The militants accused them of protecting a Christian village.
5/7/2005         Lebanon         Jounieh         2         28         Two people are killed by a bomb set in a commercial district of a Christian town.
5/6/2005         Iraq         Baghdad         14         0         Assyrian Christians are thought to be among the fourteen, bound corpses of torture victims found in a city garbage dump.
4/24/2005         Indonesia         Sulawesi         6         0         At least six Christian villagers are killed by their Muslim neighbors after refusing to 'return to Islam.'
4/10/2005         Nigeria         Benue         14         4         Fourteen Christians are killed in an attack on their villages by Muslim militants in the large African nation.
4/7/2005         Pakistan         Peshawar         2         0         A priest and his Christian driver are detained then stabbed to death by Muslim extremists, who also cut off the hands, noses and ears of the victims.
4/1/2005         Lebanon         Broummana         0         12         Bomb placed outside a shopping center in a Christian resort village by Syrian-backed terrorists injures a dozen.
3/27/2005         Pakistan         Khambay         1         6         Four Islamic militants open fire on an church Easter service, killing at least one Christian and injuring six other worshippers.
3/26/2005         Lebanon         Beirut         0         5         Bomb in a predominately Christian suburb injures five.
3/24/2005         Iraq         Basra         2         0         A female Christian college student is kidnapped and beaten to death by Shiite radicals. A man coming to her rescue is murdered as well.
3/23/2005         Lebanon         Jounieh         3         3         Three people are killed when Muslim terrorists detonate an 80kg bomb in a shopping center in a Christian area north of Beirut.
3/19/2005         Lebanon         Beirut         2         11         Syrian-backed terrorists set off a car bomb in a Christian neighborhood, killing two innocents.
3/17/2005         Nigeria         Benue         1         0         Two Muslim men rape a Christian girl and then poison her.
3/8/2005         Bangladesh         Jalalpur         1         0         Christian pastor attacked and beheaded by Muslim extremists as he is returning home from work.
2/28/2005         Iraq         Hilla         135         141         A Fedayeen suicide car bomber blows his way to paradise by driving into a crowd of unemployed Iraqis, taking the lives of more than one-hundred souls, most of whom were Christian.
2/18/2005         Lebanon         al-Shuwayfat         2         0         Islamists bomb a Christian-owned gas station, killing two people.
2/17/2005         Iraq         Zakho         1         0         Christian taxi driver gunned down after refusing to convert back to Islam.
2/4/2005         Nigeria         Demsa         36         0         Militant Muslims attack a Christian village in Nigeria, killing at least three dozen and displacing some three thousand others.
1/27/2005         Nigeria         Numan         1         0         A Christian woman is shot to death by Muslim troops in the troubled African province.
12/19/2004         Iraq         Baghdad         2         0         Two Christians are kidnapped and then murdered by Jihadists.
12/12/2004         Indonesia         Sulawesi         0         3         Muslims open fire on churches in Indonesia, injuring three Christians.
12/8/2004         Iraq         Ramadi         1         0         Islamic terrorists kill a Christian doctor as he is attending to (Muslim) patients in a hospital.
12/8/2004         Nigeria         Bauchi         1         0         Muslim students at an African university abduct and kill a Christian student.
12/2/2004         Iraq         Mosul         1         0         Islamic terrorists kidnap and decapitate a 29-year-old Christian man.
11/30/2004         Thailand         Yala         1         2         Two separate shooting attacks by Muslim missionaries from the back of a motorcycle leave a teacher dead and two other civilians injured.
11/23/2004         Nigeria         Jigawa         2         10         Muslim extremists attack a group of Christian evangelists. Two people are beaten to death and at least ten others injured.
11/17/2004         Philippines         Zamboanga         0         1         24-year-old Christian man is attacked by Muslim activists, badly beaten and left for dead.
11/8/2004         Iraq         Baghdad         3         45         Muslim extremists bomb two Christian churches, killing three and injuring over forty, including women and children.
11/4/2004         Indonesia         Poso         1         0         The Mujahideen kidnap and decapitate the Christian leader of an Indonesian village.
11/2/2004         Iraq         Baghdad         2         2         A Christian family is ambushed in their car by Muslim gunmen, who manage to kill the father and his 10-year-old son.
10/27/2004         Pakistan         Karachi         6         2         A vicious killing by Islamists, who barge into a Christian charity office, tie up six men, then execute six by shooting them in the back of the head.
10/25/2004         Iraq         Mosul         1         0         An Assyrian Christian woman, mother of three children, is murdered in her home by Jihad warriors.
10/21/2004         Indonesia         Poso         1         0         Muslim gunmen kill the security guard at a Catholic church.
10/16/2004         Syria         Hasaka         2         0         An Assyrian Christian is beaten and killed by Muslim attackers, who then mutilate his body and dump it in the Christian quarter of town. A friend coming to help is shot and killed.
10/14/2004         Iraq         Baghdad         1         0         Small Christian girl kidnapped and

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: bobad
Date: 19 Oct 13 - 10:25 AM

10/5/2004         Iraq         Mosul         1         0         Jihadists kidnap and then behead a 15-year-old Christian boy. They then burn his body.
9/18/2004         Bangladesh         Jamalpur         1         0         A Christian convert from Islam has his throat slashed by Muslim fundamentalists.
9/15/2004         Iraq         Al Dijail         3         0         The headless bodies of three people, two of who were Assyrian Christians, are found in a field with Qur'anic inscriptions carved into them.
9/14/2004         Iraq         Baghdad         2         0         Two Canadian (Arab) Christians are chased by a mob of Muslims and beaten to death.
9/2/2004         Iraq         al-Mayasa         2         0         Islamic terrorists gun down two Christian brothers, known for advocating the rights of minorities.
9/1/2004         Iraq         Baghdad         1         0         A 43-year-old Christian man is killed by Jihadists just after leaving a hospital where he was treated for injuries following an earlier attack.
8/31/2004         Iraq         Bartella         3         0         Three young Christian women are slaughtered by Islamic extremists in a small Iraqi village.
8/26/2004         Iraq         Mosul         1         0         A Christian man is murdered by Muslim terrorists.
8/19/2004         Pakistan         Lahore         1         0         Muslim mob takes 26-year-old Christian from his home then tortures him to death.
8/7/2004         Afghanistan         Awdand         1         0         Islamic radicals murder a 40-year-old 'well-educated' man for converting to Christianity.
8/1/2004         Iraq         Baghdad         11         61         Islamic radicals bomb five Catholic churches, murdering nearly a dozen Christians and injuring close to one-hundred people.
7/28/2004         Afghanistan         Kabul         1         0         A married father is stabbed to death after being discovered associating with other Christians.
7/23/2004         Afghanistan         Kabul         1         0         A Christian is stabbed to death by the Taliban over praying in the name of Jesus.
7/19/2004         Indonesia         Palu         2         3         Islamic gunmen enter a church and kill the female pastor and a 17-year-old girl. Three other teenage worshipers were also shot.
7/19/2004         Iraq         Mosul         1         1         Islamists kill the Christian owner of a restaurant selling food to Americans. They also blind and cut off both hands of his Muslim business partner.
7/18/2004         Indonesia         Palu         1         4         Radical Muslims fire into a church service, killing a female pastor and injuring four Christian worshippers.
7/15/2004         Afghanistan         Kabul         1         0         A Christian is beaten to death for studying the Bible.
7/11/2004         Iraq         Baghdad         2         0         In a particularly senseless attack, Islamic fundamentalists enter the home of a Christian family and stab two girls (ages 16 and 6) to death.
6/30/2004         Afghanistan         Ghazni         1         0         A convert to Christianity (and father of four daughters) is dragged out of his home by the Taliban, who then slit his thoat.
6/23/2004         Iraq         Basra         2         0         As their father waited at home for their return, two Christian sisters are gunned down by Muslim extremists in a particularly heinous and senseless murder.
6/10/2004         Iraq         Baghdad         1         0         A Christian man is attack and murdered by Islamists in his home.
6/9/2004         UK         Brixton         1         0         A 21-year-old man is stabbed to death by Muslim gang members for refusing to convert to Islam.
6/7/2004         Iraq         Baghdad         4         3         Islamic terrorists target Christian workers in a morning shooting attack that leaves four dead and several wounded.
6/7/2004         Iraq         Baghdad         4         0         In the same Christian neighborhood as the morning drive-by, Islamic extremists murder four, including three women returning from work.
6/6/2004         Kosovo         Gracanica         1         0         17-year-old Christian teenager is shot to death in a restaurant by Muslim terrorists.
5/29/2004         Indonesia         Palu         1         0         A Christian prosecutor, working to keep three Bali bombers in jail, is assassinated by Jemaah Islamiah extremists in his car.
5/29/2004         Saudi Arabia         Khobar         22         45         "Are you Christian or Muslim," ask al-Qaeda militants as they shoot twenty-two infidels to death, including a 10-year-old boy, and take over forty-five hostages in an attack on an office complex.
5/28/2004         Pakistan         Lahore         1         0         Pakistani Christian who was attacked with a hammer by a policeman for violating the State's blasphemy laws dies of his injuries. The killer claimed he wanted to "earn a spot in Paradise."
5/28/2004         Sudan         Tabit         20         17         Sudanese warplanes bomb a Christian village, killing at least twenty.
5/28/2004         Nigeria         Langtang         3         0         Assault by armed Muslims leaves three Christians dead and several hundred homeless after their village is burned.
5/27/2004         Uzbekistan         Isfara         1         0         A Baptist pastor gunned down by members of the Islamist group, Bayrat.
5/25/2004         Indonesia         Ambon         1         13         Bomb blast in the Christian sector of the city kills one and injures thirteen. A second bomb is found near a church and defused.
5/21/2004         Nigeria         Saminaka         7         0         In the latest of a series of attacks on Christian villagers, seven more are killed by Nigerian Jihadists as they sought refuge in their homes.
5/21/2004         Nigeria         Jiram         15         0         Fifteen Christian villagers are massacred by Jihadists.
5/19/2004         Nigeria         Sabo Gida         10         0         Ten Christian villagers are killed by armed Muslims. An unknown number are injured by the attackers, who also burned churches and houses.
5/19/2004         Nigeria         Bakin Ciyawa         24         0         Jihadists kill twenty-four Christian villagers.
5/18/2004         Nigeria         Gidan Sabo         18         0         Muslim Nigerians kill eighteen Christian villagers - mostly farmers, women and children.
5/18/2004         Pakistan         Karachi         4         0         Four members of Pakistan's Christian minority are targeted and killed by Islamists. One was a kidnapped youth and two others were on their way to a picnic.
5/16/2004         Iraq         Baghdad         3         1         Muslim radical opens fire on a minibus carrying Christian women, forcing them to the side of the road. He then tosses an explosive in the vehicle, killing three, including the driver.
5/12/2004         Philippines         Jolo         1         14         Abu Sayyaf terrorists kill a fifteen-year-old Catholic girl with a grenade - fourteen others are also injured in the attack.
5/12/2004         Nigeria         Kano         30         44         Muslim rampage against Christians continues in Kano with at least another thirty people losing their lives.
5/11/2004         Nigeria         Kano         11         0         At least eleven Christians are burned to death by a Muslim mob that also sets two churches on fire.
5/7/2004         Pakistan         Toba Tek Singh         1         0         Catholic student abducted by Muslim school refuses to convert to Islam and is tortured to death.
5/5/2004         Egypt         Taha al-Aamida         3         0         Muslim police take three Christians, including a priest, into custody as they are repairing a church wall. All three are then murdered.
5/5/2004         Indonesia         Maluku         2         3         Muslim gunmen in a speedboat kill a Christian man and an 11-month-old baby. Three others are also shot, but manage to survive.
4/25/2004         Indonesia         Ambon         38         24         Islamic radicals go on a rampage against Christians, killing more than thirty (some in sniper attacks) and then setting a UN building on fire.
4/11/2004         Nigeria         Rwang Doka and Jenkur         3         0         Muslim militia attacks two Christian villages and kills three people, in addition to burning homes.
4/11/2004         Indonesia         Sulawesi         0         7         Islamic gunmen open fire on an Easter church service, wounding seven worshippers.
4/10/2004         Indonesia         Poso         0         7         Radical Muslims fire on a group of Christians gathered for Easter service.
4/2/2004         Pakistan         Lahore         1         0         Christian pastor is gunned down by Muslim extremists in front of his wife and four children.
3/30/2004         Indonesia         Tomura         1         1         A Christian pastor is fatally wounded by Muslim gunmen in front of his wife at his church. One other person is also injured in the attack.
3/27/2004         Indonesia         Poso         1         0         A 27-year-old Christian is gunned down by Muslim terrorists. (2004)
3/25/2004         Iraq         Mosul         1         0         Sunni gunmen kill a Christian Assyrian police officer.
3/22/2004         Iraq         Baghdad         2         0         Islamists bind and cut the throats of an Assyrian (Christian) couple in their home. (2004)
3/18/2004         Iraq         Baghdad         4         1         Muslims barge into a Christian home and kill the two children they find there. There mother is also killed, as well as their grandfather.
3/15/2004         Iraq         Mosul         4         1         Four Christian missionaries working on a humanitarian clean water project for Iraqis are gunned down by Fedayeen terrorists while riding in their vehicle.
3/11/2004         Indonesia         Maranatha         1         5         Brutal machete attack on a Christian village leaves a mother of two dead and five others injured.
3/6/2004         Sudan         al-Kureinik         15         0         Government-supported militia group raids a refugee camp and kills fifteen Christian civilians, including a child.
2/25/2004         Nigeria         Yelwa         49         0         Forty-nine members of a farming community are slaughtered by Muslim Fulanis after taking refuge in a local church. Most of the Christians were brutally hacked to death. The number of injured is unknown.
2/19/2004         Philippines         Jolo         1         1         Abu Sayyaf gunmen abduct a 7-year old girl at a Roman Catholic school after killing her driver.
2/15/2004         Iraq         Baghdad         1         4         A Christian pastor is killed, and four others are injured when a vehicle pulls alongside their car and fires into the cabin.
2/9/2004         Iraq         Mosul         2         0         Two Christian family members murdered by radical Jihadists.
1/21/2004         Iraq         Fallujah         4         1         Four Christian Iraqi women, who were laundry workers for the coalition, are attacked and killed while riding in a minivan. The male driver was injured.
1/21/2004         Indonesia         Maranatha         1         0         The 56-year-old head of a local Christian community is killed by Muslim villagers. (2004)
1/15/2004         Pakistan         Karachi         0         12         At least a dozen people are injured when a car bomb explodes outside the local headquarters of the Christian Bible Society.
1/10/2004         Indonesia         Palopo         4         2         Four people are killed, and at least two injured by a bomb blast at a karaoke cafe. Islamist terrorist attacks killed nearly a dozen Christians there in November.
1/5/2004         Egypt         Patmos Center         1         2         One Christian is killed, and two others injured when elements of the Egyptian army burn down a church.
1/5/2004         Pakistan         Khanewal         1         0         Christian priest shot dead by Islamic terrorists as he was boarding a train.
1/4/2004         Philippines         Parang         22         81         Twenty-two people at a political rally for a Christian mayor in a predominately Muslim region are killed by a bomb blast. More than eighty are injured. Two Muslims later identified and charged..
11/16/2003         Indonesia         Sulawesi         1         0         A Christian man is dragged from his motorcycle and beaten to death by a Muslim mob.
11/15/2003         Indonesia         Sulawesi         2         0         A church official and his nephew are shot to death by radical Muslims.
11/4/2003         Iraq         Mosul         2         0         Christian judge is assassinated in shooting attack. This occurs a day after another judge is kidnapped and murdered in Najaf
10/28/2003         Philippines         Cotabato         0         5         Five people are injured when suspected Jemaah Islamiah members bomb a Catholic church.
10/27/2003         Indonesia         Sulawesi         1         0         Christian farmer killed by Jemmah Islamiah terrorists while working his field.
10/12/2003         Iraq         Fallujah         2         0         Two Iraqi Christians murdered by Holy Warriors.
10/11/2003         Indonesia         Sulawesi         8         24         Muslim gunmen attack Christian villagers, killing eight, injuring dozens more and burning at least one church.
10/9/2003         Indonesia         Poso         2         0         Armed Muslims kill at least two Christian villagers and burn homes.
10/5/2003         Somalia         Borama         1         0         60-year old Italian medical missionary, a woman honored by the U.N. for her work with refugees, is shot twice in the head while leaving a hospital.
10/1/2003         Indonesia         Pandiri         1         0         A 44-year-old man murdered for leaving Islam and embracing Christianity.
8/22/2003         Philippines         Barangay Matarling         1         4         Abu Sayyaf gunmen attack the house of a 37-year old Christian woman. They kill her and injure four members of her family.
7/29/2003         Pal. Auth.         West Bank         1         0         Muslim extremists abduct a Christian convert, butcher him and then return his body to his children in pieces.
7/10/2003         Indonesia         Kawua         0         5         A Christian-owned restaurant is bombed. Five people suffer injuries including a child.
7/10/2003         Indonesia         Sulawesi         1         0         Muslims attack and shoot a Christian to death as he was working his farm.
7/5/2003         Pakistan         Ranala Kot         1         0         Catholic priest, who received death threats from fundamentalist Muslims, is shot and killed in his home.
6/8/2003         Nigeria         Numan         1         0         Female Christian pastor stabbed to death by a radical Muslim as she was returning home from work (2003).
6/2/2003         Indonesia         Kapompa         1         1         Muslim attack on a Christian village leaves one dead and at least one other injured.
5/29/2003         Indonesia         Marowo         1         1         Muslim terrorists gun down a man for traveling with his Christian brother-in-law.
5/29/2003         Philippines         Cotabato         5         0         Moro Islamic fighters raid three Christian villages, killing five civilians.
5/22/2003         Sudan         Longochok         59         0         Islamic troops attack a Christian village, burning homes and killing at least fifty-nine villagers. They also take captive several women and children (some of whom are killed later).
5/21/2003         India         Anantnag         1         1         Muslim grenade attack on a Christian convent kills one female teacher and injures another.
5/14/2003         Yemen         Jibla         0         4         Terrorist bomb thrown into a courthouse where al-Qaeda militant was sentenced to death for killing three U.S. missionaries.
5/7/2003         Lebanon         Tripoli         1         0         Bomb left at the front door of a Christian missionary couple explodes, killing one person.
5/4/2003         Philippines         Siocon         27         23         Muslim separatists attack a Christian village, firing on houses and a hospital. At least twenty-seven are killed and about two dozen wounded. Fifteen residents are taken hostage.
4/22/2003         Nigeria         Kano         7         0         Muslims set fire to a house, killing a Christian pastor and six other members of his family, including his wife and three children.
4/4/2003         Indonesia         Wamena         15         0         Indonesian military raids Christian town, burning Bibles and churches, killing two Baptist pastors along with at least thirteen others. Other Christians were tortured.
4/4/2003         Nigeria         Fobur         1         4         Armed Muslims attack a village, kill a woman and burn down the houses of Christians.
3/26/2003         Philippines         M'lang         7         5         Muslims blast Christian village with RPGs, killing seven, including a six-year-old child and injuring five others.
3/25/2003         Philippines         Carmen         2         0         Islamists stop a cargo truck, tie up the Christian driver and his helper then shoot them to death.
3/18/2003         Philippines         Cotabato         0         5         Rebel bomb attack on a Roman Catholic church during mass injures five worshippers.
3/18/2003         Nigeria         Kadarko         22         44         Armed Muslims shouting "we are going to finish off the infidels" attack a Christian village and kill at least 22 villagers. More than forty-four others were injured or missing.
3/7/2003         Philippines         Mindanao         1         2         Two Moro Islamic Liberation Front bomb attacks kill one and injure two at a Catholic school.
3/4/2003         Philippines         Davao         21         150         Muslim rebels plant a bomb at a civilian airport. Twenty-one are killed in the blast and about 150 others are injured. Among the dead is an American missionary and several children.
2/28/2003         Philippines         Bukidnon         1         0         Muslim rebels burn ten homes in a Christian village, killing at least one person.
2/19/2003         Philippines         Tubud         14         8         Muslims attack a Christian village, burning and murdering at least fourteen civilians.
2/11/2003         Israel         Bethlehem         1         0         Palestinian sniper guns down Israeli soldier in front of the Church of the Nativity.
1/26/2003         Lebanon         Beirut         1         3         Car bomb explodes in Christian residential area killing one and injuring three.
1/13/2003         Philippines         Zamboanga         3         0         Muslim gunmen kill three Christians.
12/30/2002         Yemen         Jibla         3         1         Muslim gunman posing as a father carrying a child kills three American humanitarian workers at a missionary hospital and wounds one other.
12/25/2002         Pakistan         Daska         3         14         Christmas grenade attack on a Christian church kills three girls and injures fourteen young women.
12/12/2002         Nigeria         Rim         13         0         Muslim nomads attack a Christian village and kill thirteen people including a clergyman and his family.
11/22/2002         Nigeria         Kaduna         216         521         A Muslim mob, angered by an insult to Muhammad, burns 58 Christian churches and rampages through the streets stabbing, bludgeoning and burning over two hundred people to death.
11/21/2002         Lebanon         Sidon         1         0         Female missionary shot three times in the head by Muslim radicals.
10/31/2002         Nigeria         Zaria         20         51         Muslims go on a rampage against Christian students at a local college, killing twenty and injuring over fifty.
10/24/2002         Nigeria         Fajul         40         48         At least forty Christians are killed by a Muslim mob of several thousand, who also rape women and burn churches.
10/20/2002         Philippines         Zamboanga         1         18         A Roman Catholic shrine is bombed by Muslim terrorists. One killed, eighteen injured.
9/25/2002         Pakistan         Karachi         7         3         Seven persons are killed and three others injured in a terrorist attack on a Christian welfare organization's office - the Idara Amn-O-Insaaf (Institute for Peace and Justice). The victims were blind-folded, tied to chairs and shot in the head.
9/21/2002         Indonesia         Kelang         2         2         Two Christians are killed and two wounded by Muslim gunmen.
9/8/2002         Indonesia         Galunggung         1         0         A Christian is beaten, then burned to death by a Muslim mob.
8/15/2002         Iraq         Baghdad         1         0         A 71-year-old nun is savagely attacked and stabbed to death in a monastery by Islamic extremists, who then behead her.
8/15/2002         Indonesia         Manyomba         1         3         Fifty militants attack two Christian villages. They shoot three people and strangle a 3-year-old child to death.
8/11/2002         Indonesia         Kayamanya         5         0         A Muslim mob attacks a bus and one other vehicle, killing five Christians, including one who was burned.
8/10/2002         Philippines         Unknown         2         4         Abu Sayyaf kidnap six missionaries. Two are subsequently beheaded.
8/9/2002         Indonesia         Malei         2         0         Jihad warriors attack two Christian villages and kill two people.
8/5/2002         Pakistan         Jhika Gali, Murree         6         4         Six persons killed and four others injured in terrorist attack on Christian missionary school.
8/4/2002         Indonesia         Matako         0         8         A Muslim mob screaming praises to Allah sweeps through a Christian village, burning homes and churches, and shooting residents.
7/22/2002         Indonesia         Mayoa         0         3         Three Christian farmers survive a brutal shooting attack by Jihad warriors.
7/12/2002         Indonesia         Kawua         1         4         Islamic bombers nearly crash a bus carrying Christians. Only one passenger is killed by the explosion.
7/7/2002         Philippines         Unknown         2         1         Kidnapped American missionary and Philippine nurse are killed during rescue attempt.
7/7/2002         Indonesia         Wayura         1         0         A Christian fisherman is shot in the head by suspected Islamists.
7/3/2002         Indonesia         Landangan         1         0         Muslim gunmen murder a Christian man.
6/27/2002         Pakistan         Kachi Abadi         1         2         15-year old Christian tortured to death by police for blasphemy. In the same country a 17-year old Christian girl was blinded from having acid thrown in her face and another girl was raped (occurring on different days).
6/15/2002         Pakistan         Faisalabad         0         1         A 16-year-old Christian girl is doused with acid for refusing to convert to Islam.
6/9/2002         Indonesia         Kayamanya         1         0         An older Christian man is beheaded by a Muslim.
6/6/2002         Nigeria         Katsina         1         0         A Muslim mob clubs a Christian police officer to death after a cleric makes false charges that he trampled a Qur'an.
6/5/2002         India         Bangalore         2         0         A Christian man and his Muslim wife are captured and hacked to death by her family for marrying outside Islam. Their one-year-old baby is spared.
6/5/2002         Indonesia         Tentena         4         17         A bomb planted by Muslim radicals explodes on a church bus killing four, including the pastor, and wounding seventeen.
5/25/2002         Indonesia         Saparua         5         11         A Muslim boat attack kills five Christians and wounds eleven others.
5/16/2002         Indonesia         Tamonjeka         2         0         Two Christian men are killed by suspected Muslim radicals.
4/28/2002         Indonesia         Soya         12         6         Muslims attack a Christian village with knives and guns. They are able to slaughter twelve people and hurt six more.
4/4/2002         Indonesia         Ambon         5         57         An Islamist throws a bomb into a Christian center, killing five and injuring fifty-seven other innocents.
3/17/2002         Pakistan         Islamabad         5         45         Grenade attack on a Christian church kills five worshippers including American woman and her 17-year-old daughter. Forty-five others were injured.
3/7/2002         Nigeria         Enugu         12         0         Muslim gunmen storm a Christian prayer meeting attempting to kill the leader. Twelve are killed, an unknown number injured.
2/27/2002         Nigeria         Ilorin         3         0         Eid-el-Kabir celebrants kill three Christians.
2/24/2002         Nigeria         Gombi         1         0         A young Christian woman is kidnapped by four Muslim men, who slit her throat and leave her to die.
1/16/2002         Indonesia         Malei         1         0         A Christian man is gunned down by angry Muslims while collecting fruit.
1/1/2002         Indonesia         Palu         1         0         Four bombs explode at Christian churches and one man dies in a hand grenade attack in Jakarta.
12/30/2001         Nigeria         Vwang         5         0         Armed Muslims attack Christian community, kill five and destroy much of the town.
12/19/2001         Indonesia         Kapaha         9         1         Nine Christians aboard a boat are killed by Jihad attackers.
12/7/2001         Indonesia         Ewiri         2         3         Jihadists attack a Christian village, killing two and wounding three.
12/2/2001         Indonesia         Sepe         6         0         Six Christians are murdered by a Muslim mob while fleeing their homes.
11/13/2001         Indonesia         Ambon         2         5         A Muslim attack kills two Christians and injures five more.
11/1/2001         Indonesia         Palu         4         0         Four Christians murdered by Jihad terrorists at an illegal roadblock.
11/1/2001         Indonesia         Tomata         3         12         Jihad warriors attack Christian village and kill three.
11/1/2001         Indonesia         Waimulang         5         2         Jihad warriors attack Christian village, killing five and wounding at least two.
10/28/2001         Pakistan         Bahawalpur         18         9         A policeman and seventeen Christians, including five children, are killed and nine others injured when six gunmen opened fire on a church.
10/21/2001         Indonesia         Toyado         1         0         A Christian is pulled from a car and hacked to death by Jihad warriors.
10/20/2001         Indonesia         Betalemba         2         0         At least two killed in a Muslim attack on Christian village.
10/16/2001         Indonesia         Madale         1         1         A Muslim mob burns down a Christian refugee barracks, killing one and seriously injuring another.
10/15/2001         Nigeria         Kano         32         51         Scores of Christians are murdered by Muslim mobs. Dozens of others are injured and at least five churches are burned down.
10/3/2001         Indonesia         Peleru         10         0         Jihad warriors kill 10 Christian villagers and injure an unknown number.
10/1/2001         Indonesia         Tomata         3         0         Terrorists attack a Christian church, killing three women.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 19 Oct 13 - 10:27 AM

How nice.

The fact that oppression of one cult regardless of location makes news whilst oppression of other cults is not newsworthy or statistic gathering worthy... Is it as easy for you to get the statistics on Sunni victims in Iran? Shi'ite victims in Iraq? Gay victims of American backed so called Christians in Uganda?

Victims of being the minority scapegoat occur all over and for myriad reasons. Christian oppression is a statistical fact due to circumstance rather than because they are Christian.

Just because you gave the same imaginary friend as a proportion of the oppressed, just remember, you have the same family and friends asp pressed people of other faiths.

Sanctimonious bastards..

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Oct 13 - 11:06 AM

And finally, reduced to name-calling.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Oct 13 - 12:14 PM

"Yes I have, but on relevant threads not this one about religious persecution."
You are lying again - you have never identified clerical child abuse as Cristian Crime
You have an opportunity to do so but shamefully, you won't
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 19 Oct 13 - 12:46 PM

Looking at that list of awful atrocity. Attacked by Muslims! So its Christian versus Muslim is it? Can someone go through the list and make sure that where the perpetrators were identified as Muslim that they actually were and that the reason the attack took place was because they are Muslim?

Name calling Keith? Not in your league. Which judging by your previous shockingly disgusting post must be English Defence League.

I take no pride in being proved right. I said this thread has a hate agenda. Keith and bobad prove my point.

What has an arbitrary list got to do with anything? Other than make a case for Christian persecution being somehow a worse crime than persecution of non Christians. If that is the case, shame on you. It makes no difference here. Less people are taken in by superstition and the more ethnic violence elsewhere is conveniently reported on religious factions, the less rational people are going to be interested in singing from any hymn sheet.

So. Again.. What point are you trying to make?

I repeat. Christians form large minorities in unstable countries so are targeted. Not because of Jesus but because of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. In case you hadn't noticed, in some places religion is taken seriously and the west is portrayed as being Christian. Christian smart bombs from Christian drones. I can say we are secular till I am blue in the face but whilst ever wicked people differentiate between oppression on some "they are similar to us" ticket whilst glossing over all other oppression, their motives will be challenged. Are you saying a Christian life has more value than a Muslim one? We need to wring our hands over Christian oppression but deplore Muslims escaping it and finding sanctuary in the west?

Why did you slip in the bit about Muslims coming over here Keith?

Why the name calling?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Oct 13 - 12:46 PM

That is because everyone already knows that both the abusers and the victims were Catholics.
Clerical abuse.
The clue is in the name!

You only started calling it persecution to try and change the subject of this thread.
You have never called it that before.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Oct 13 - 01:06 PM

Sorry Musket.
Cross posted.
I was pointing out a false comparison between persecuted Christian communities and our Muslim community.
The Christians are being driven out of their homelands, but Muslims choose to come here from theirs.
Did you not know that?
Why must I not refer to that fact when it is crucial to the point I was making?

We in the CofE abhor racism.
We do not tolerate it.
My church especially (St.Andrew's Hertford). The logo on our magazine is white and black hands clasping each other.
My picture was in it last month with a nice piece about my wedding.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 19 Oct 13 - 01:28 PM

I do know that. Some because they have valid UK passports and family over here. Some, especially many of my colleagues, because we want their skills, some as economic migrants and some because they have been driven out from their homelands. (Ironic in the light of your comments.)

If I were being charitable I'd say it was unfortunate that you raised the issue of Muslims in a The UK in a thread about people being oppressed in other countries, but I reckon being charitable would be to insult your intelligence.

The village in which I live has many doctors living here, being equi distant to a number of major hospitals. We chose it to be near to friends too for that matter. However, the village isn't the most cosmopolitan in the world. I reckon ethnic diversity gets as far as the Chinese takeaway family. There are many large lovely houses for sale and very reasonable too. One guy, white, says he feels it important to live in a city as his black wife and brown children look black and brown in small English villages. A Muslim doctor who cane to a party at ours recently got a permanent job locally and looked at a house near us. Turned it down because he felt his family wouldn't fit in.

Whether their fears are justified or not, it is attitudes of division that exacerbate their concern. So sad.

Your earlier comments do just that. Your church and it's admirable stance is in sharp relief to some of your comments. For that matter, "we in The CofE" is baseless, as you cannot speak for them all, not even the ones who mustered enough votes to maintain gender discrimination..... Try showing two hairy hands clasped and see how tolerant some of your fellow members are.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Oct 13 - 02:05 PM

(tried to post this before but it got lost).

It looks like Nigeria's Christian/secularist government has killed a larger number of Muslim civilians in the last few weeks than the total number of victims in all of bobad's lists put together:

http://www.newsdaily.com/article/af5fe767efc82441358c8c1210a4a6da/nigerias-military-killing-thousands-of-detainees

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/africa/2013/10/nigeria-urged-probe-custody-killings-201310158234191101.html

(Sources behind those sources: AP and Amnesty International)

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Oct 13 - 02:10 PM

killed a larger number of Muslim civilians in the last few weeks than the total number of victims in all of bobad's lists put together:

Don't count. They're just Muslims.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Oct 13 - 06:28 PM

If I were being charitable I'd say it was unfortunate that you raised the issue of Muslims in a The UK in a thread about people being oppressed in other countries

I did not.
Don did, suggesting that there situation was comparable to persecuted Christians who are murdered, tortured, attacked, raped, forced to convert, property seized, houses burned,...

I pointed out that they were not being driven out, but welcomed in.
That there communities were not dwindling, but growing and thriving.

And I can speak for the whole CofE on racism.
We hate it.
We also have gay congregants, vicars and bishops.
My wife's Methodist church has its second gay minister in a row.
You know shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Oct 13 - 07:19 PM

If I were being charitable I'd say it was unfortunate that you raised the issue of Muslims in the UK in a thread about people being oppressed in other countries
I did not.
Don did, suggesting that there situation was comparable to persecuted Christians who are murdered, tortured, attacked, raped, forced to convert, property seized, houses burned,...
I pointed out that they were not being driven out, but welcomed in.

Being murdered, tortured, raped and burned out of their homes is EXACTLY the situation of millions of Muslims right now. And no they are NOT being welcomed in. The British state has coined a special piece of Newspeak - "asylum seeker" - precisely to conceal the fact that these people ARE refugees.

How many Bosniak refugees from Catholic and Orthodox-inspired genocide did the UK accept?

How many Shiite refugees from Saddam's Iraq?

How many Sunni refugees from Blair's Iraq?

How many refugees with the wrong variety of Islam for Reagan's fundie proteges in Afghanistan? (Iran took in 3 million of them)

How many Tamil refugees from Buddhist state terror in Sri Lanka?

How many Rohingya refugees from imminent genocide in Thailand?

How many from Israel and Saudi Arabia's proxy war of annihilation in Syria? (The entire Alawi population faces extermination if British/US foreign policy has its way)

The answer in every case: fuck-all, and most of those situations were the direct result of British foreign policy.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 03:03 AM

Are you saying that we do not give asylum to Muslims?
From Somalia, etc?
Are not our settled Muslim community secure enough to want family members and spouses to join them here.
Don made a false comparison.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 03:52 AM

Plenty of gay clergy. A melodeon player I cut an album with a few years ago is a gay vicar. Him out of The Communards is another etc. They will reconcile in their own way how their employer thought gay marriage to be wrong, but there you go. They obviously know the difference between belief and believing too.

The left footers have plenty of gay priests too, but not so open and sadly not so savoury.

Err... your all embracing, inclusive, fluffy church.   Can anyone get a top job in it? For instance, as an example completely at random. . The most senior jobs seem to be that of Bishop or Archbishop.   How many women are in those roles?

Just asking. ..   You being an inclusive church and all that.




Oh. When I used to inspect healthcare provision in prisons, I used to speak with the chaplains. Contrary to your claim about what all CofE people do and not do. . There are enough of them banged up for serious crimes. ..

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 04:13 AM

"Looking at that list of awful atrocity. Attacked by Muslims! So its Christian versus Muslim is it?"
That seems just about the gist of it Muskie.
Despite his protestations, this is the umpteenth thread Keith has dominated in which he has openly expressed his hatred of all things Muslim.
Notably, he has presented them as implanted perverts threatening the purity of our young women and more recently as a growing threat as potential killers and bombers "The Enemy Within" to borrow a famous phrase.
He has used thread after thread to compare all Muslims with the extremists that all religions throw up and has gone out of his way to prevent discussion on why religious extremism exists and to deny that it has anything to do with the Christian religion.
Ironically, his behaviour on this forum has given us one of the most extreme examples of a Christian fundamentalist I have ever encountered.
Even here, his mealy-mouthed concessions to allowing Muslims into Britain are only extended to refugees fleeing from wars, some of which we have helped fuel with arms sales and unconditional trade and political support of despotic dictators
I travelled quite a lot in my lifetime; my travels have included three Muslim Countries and half-a-dozen Communist ones, along with another half- dozen which would describe themselves as 'Christian' (some of these with strong Muslim influences); several of my trips were spent hitching lifts from generous locals over long distances.
I lived for 30 years in multicultural London, Manchester and Liverpool.
In London I worked for Muslims, and my interests led me to discussing politics and general religion with my customers.
In Manchester I was befriended by several Jewish families, where politics was one of our main topics of conversation.
The first five years of my working life were spent on the Liverpool docks, working on servicing vessels that sailed into Liverpool from all over the world and manned by workers from many countries.
Pat and I visited Ireland throughout the decades of violent inter-Christian strife in the six Northern Counties that once considered themselves 'British' (happily, a view rapidly declining and now only strongly held by a few fundamentalist fanatics).
I now live among people who, I once heard described by a Londoner as dangerous (he said, "we have an Irish family living next door – we always check under the car before we drive off in the morning")
Throughout my life I have never encountered a moment's hostility because of the colour of my skin, my non belief or the fact that I came from 'somewhere else'.
The only violent religious disturbances I have ever personally witnessed are those between different brands of Christianity, when work was short in the North of England, or on the deliberately choreographed "peaceful days out" (Keith's phrase) on the 'Glorious Twelfth'      
I read (and sang) about 'Colour Bar Strikes' and race riots and I watched with horror Powell's 'Rivers of Blood' hate marches on television, and I still cringe in horror at the homophobic and sexist bigotry oozing from some of our 'Christian' churches, but these excepted, by and large I find humanity as a whole a fairly friendly, tolerant and hospitable species.
I have no idea how far Keith has travelled, but I am left with the strong impression of somebody who would crumble into dust if he crossed the town boundaries (or ventured outside in daylight)   
I can't think of one single race or religion I would not be happy to describe as a neighbour (though I might consider applying for an ASBO if Keith or any of his extremists moved in next door.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 04:44 AM

Missed a bit
Boo-boo has a disturbing habit of lifting his 'information' from some of the most extremist sites to hand and he deliberately omits the information as to where they came from.
His formidable lists are lifted directly from an extremist Islamophopbic site which calls itself 'The Religion of Peace' which appears to be dedicated to ridding the world of all Muslims.
Similar lists are freely available throughout the internet, aimed at Jews, Christians, blacks, homosexuals, left-handed people..... you name it, it's all there if you care to dredge.
Well done Boo-boo - I trust your efforts will be well rewarded in Heaven!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 05:01 AM

Whoops
Missed another bit
Jim Carroll

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 05:10 AM

And the last resort, the personal attack.
Keith has dominated in which he has openly expressed his hatred of all things Muslim.

Filthy lie.
I never have and never would, and if it is not a filthy lie, put up an example.

Your other lie everyone has seen rubbished a hundred times.

This thread is about religious persecution, not about us.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 05:22 AM

But you persecute yourself every time you get upset when people react to what you post.

I don't know you. I can only read and interpret your words. You have a habit of slipping in your agenda followed by strong denial.

Either put more thought into whether your words express your meaning or carry on being surprised when people see through the fog and notice the divisive thrust of your overall argument.

Saying CofE members do and don't so how could I possibly. .. doesn't wash. Rather insulting really.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 06:00 AM

""Don did, suggesting that there situation was comparable to persecuted Christians who are murdered, tortured, attacked, raped, forced to convert, property seized, houses burned,...""

""As you well know Jim, I do not lie.""

Once again the man who never lies proves himself doubly a liar.

What I actually said was that MGoH's comment """"One is where a minority defined by religion is under attack, either by the state or with the collusion or impotence of the state playing a part, typically involving harassment up to and including death,"" would equally apply to British Muslims.

Ask the woman who, with her children, recently found herself in a burning house in the middle of the night, whether she would consider that ""harassment up to and including death?

Of course, you can't ask her because they all burned in their beds, and they are not the first, nor I fear, the last).

Of course, Keith cannot accept that fact so he twists the statement into something I never have said, nor ever would say.

Which exposes him for the foul liar he is.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 06:07 AM

"Filthy lie."
I really hope you have given yourself a keyboard shortcut to this - it seems to be your sole response to argument nowadays.
Everything else I wrote is freely accessible from virtually every thread you have contributed to - plenty to be had on this thread - but you might start with your 'Muslim implant' claim - the filthiest of your Islamophobic claims.
Then we'll work down your list if you feel you have the inclination.
There is nothing in any way personal in my attitude to you, it is all a direct response to what you have written - be kind enough to respond to what I have to say rather than resorting to meaningless invective.
By the way
Boo-Boo writes
"There may be a few anomalies on the list, as it is compiled by keyword search from our main database. Neither is this a complete account of Islamic terror attacks on Christians since much of the violence goes unreported."
Is this merely part of his cut-'n-paste or an open admission that he is part of 'The Religion of Peace' set-up, just wondered?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 11:58 AM

the religion of peace is not bobads, but a muslim organization.
I doubt that anyone here accuses all muslims, or even most, of being violent, even though their prophet was. in fact muslim villagers have at times defended their Christian neighbours from attacking islamists.
I am sure most muslims do not subscribe to terrorism.
but I am also sure that it is safer to be of another faith , homosexual, or adulterous in western countries than in muslim states ,- but I suppose it would not serve jim and muskets purposes to speak against that!

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 12:38 PM

I have no agenda Musket.
You try to read one into my posts is all.
Don, that shocking murder was just murder.
Nothing to do with religion.
Jim, if it was not a filthy lie, put up an example.
You can not because it is a filthy lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 12:47 PM

but you might start with your 'Muslim implant' claim - the filthiest of your Islamophobic claims.

You have made that accusation so many times, but it is a lie and you know it.
I stated many times on that thread that the offending had nothing to do with Islam.
I have since produced the actual quotes when you have lied before, yet you lie again.

Prominent left wing British Pakistanis like Alibhai-Brown were blaming the culture.
I said I had no way of knowing but believed them because of who they were.
The only question is why you refuse to listen to articulate, educated, left-wing people from within the community talking about their community.
Racism?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 01:23 PM

"Prominent left wing British Pakistanis like Alibhai-Brown were blaming the culture."
You have never produced on single quote from one single individual that comes anywhere your devastating claim that around 500,000 British citizen (Male Pakistani population of Britain) are culturally implanted with the tendency to have sex with underage girls which they have to suppress (a time-bomb waiting to go off)
Should a prominent person ever make such a horrific statement they wold not only never work again, but they would be liable to prosecution under the incitement to race hatred laws.
In the extremely unlikely case that any of them ever did make such a horrific claim it alters your own position not one whit - such a statement is monstrous and anybody giving as their opinion is a monster.
You gave it as your opinion.
But feel free to give us as many examples as you like of somebody saying such a thing, but please present it along with your actual claim so I don't have to dredge my way through your abominable 'Muslim Predudice thread - again.
There - down at the first fence.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket between courses
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 01:48 PM

Don't make mental leaps pete.

I know damn well that tolerance of non religious thoughts and deeds is lower to the point of being appalling in many countries where Islam is recognised as a state religion.
I am on record for, as an ex advisor at the Dept of Health, refusing to join a delegation looking at recognising medical school output in Saudi Arabia because of their gender clause. I have written to and signed petitions to FIFA regarding awarding the world cup to Qatar. Interestingly, Qatar Airways was cheaper than their neighbours Etihad when I went to Thailand earlier this month but on principle refused to give them my business.

Theocracy is to be resisted and the free world would raise its profile more if it refused to deal with savages.

However. .... Don't expect me to be grateful for the freedom to criticise religion where I feel appropriate. It isn't because Christian churches are tolerant, it's because society is tolerant of religions.

Keith. I had nothing better to do, pissing it down and couldn't get in the garden, so I reread some of your posts. I wanted to know if I was wrong and had been doing you a mis justice.

On reflection. I stand by my opinion that you are pushing an agenda. That the word Christian exercises you more than the word persecution. When I wonder why that could be, the only reasons are not nice. Not nice at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 01:51 PM

It seems to me that the very same kind of generalisations about how Pakistani Muslims are corrupted by their culture which Jim interprets Keith as having made could rather more convincingly be made as respects Jim in relation to Catholicism.

And in neither case would the charge actually be accurate, so far as what has been written goes.

Sometimes we are tempted to go beyond what has actually been written or said, and read into it what we believe is the underlying belief system, and if it is sufficiently hateful to go for it tooth and nail. The danger is that in doing so we risk turning into the mirror image of what we believe we are attacking.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 02:30 PM

On reflection. I stand by my opinion that you are pushing an agenda. That the word Christian exercises you more than the word persecution.
I can not stop you thinking it Musket, but you are wrong.
Nothing in my posts would make a fair minded person think that of me.

Jim.
You have never produced on single quote from one single individual that comes anywhere your devastating claim that around 500,000 British citizen
Not a single quote, no.
Lots of them.
They all said that the offending derived from their culture.
I just said that I had come to believe them. Why don't you believe them?

That was nearly 4 years ago and is the only "evidence" of racism you have ever produced.
You just said, " this is the umpteenth thread Keith has dominated in which he has openly expressed his hatred of all things Muslim."

If that is not a filthy lie, produce an example.
You can not because it is a filthy lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 02:43 PM

Both of you,
WHY CAN'T YOU RESPOND TO WHAT IS ACTUALLY SAID INSTEAD OF ENDLESSLY SPECULATING ABOUT WHY I SAID IT?

Perhaps because smearing is easier for you?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 03:14 PM

"I just said that I had come to believe them. Why don't you believe them?"
Because they are a figment of your sick imagination - nobody said them - you have never produced one single quote of anybody having said them, nobody holding public office would have dared say them, you invented them - simple as that.
Easily enough to prove me wrong though........ 1 2 3 4
"You can not because it is a filthy lie."
There goes that bloody keyboard shortcut again.
"Jim interprets Keith as having made"
Don't you dare start Keith's game Mac - it's beneath you.
He said he believed that all British male Pakistanis were culturally implanted to give them the inclination to have sex with underage girls - he went on to say that most of them managed to resist that cultural implant.
There is no room for "interpretation" in that statement - unless you'd like to suggest one???
Do not get involved in defending this racist shit - look what happened to his Fairy Godmother!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 03:33 PM

The Thread title
The Subject - Muslim Prejudice.
The context - an over-representation by Muslims of sex crimes against underage girls.
Two of Keith's quotes:
"There is lots of other dreadful crime for which other groups are responsible, but let us accept that this is a crime that the culture (not the religion) of the Pakistani community is largely responsible for".

"Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 07:10 AM
Don, no one on this thread has claimed any of those things.
Don I do now "believe that all male Pakistani Muslims have a culturally implanted tendency" but only because of the testimony of all those knowledgeable people, and always acknowledging that only a tiny minority succumb.
Do you dismiss all that just because it does not fit your preconceptions, or do you have some powerful evidence to the contrary that you have not shared with us?"

No examples of "knowledgeable people" having made such statements have ever been produced, and even if they had, it would not make the slightest difference - Keith's view, Keith's belief.
Interpret away
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 03:48 PM

Jim, Alibhai-Brown, Lord Ahmed, and Mohamed Shafiq were the ones I quoted at length (apart from Anne Cryer, Jack Straw and the Pakistani Ch4 journalist).
Deny that?
They all said the offending came from aspects of the culture.
deny that?
A culture impinges on all within it.
If not, what proportion will you accept?

That is what they all said.
Why do you reject their informed view?
Why do you vilify me for believing what THEY say about a culture they have personal, intimate knowledge of or are actually part of?

AND, WHY CAN WE NOT JUST DISCUSS RELIGIOUS PERSECUTION INSTEAD OF ME?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: bobad
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 05:02 PM

"Why do you vilify me ..."

Because vilification is Jimbo's stock-in-trade, especially when anyone produces facts and figures that contradict his obsessive fixations - that and juvenile name calling is what he is left with. It is very sad actually and the reason why I no longer read the garbage he posts. Say you piece and ignore him - you will be better off for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 06:37 PM

but I am also sure that it is safer to be of another faith , homosexual, or adulterous in western countries than in muslim states ,- but I suppose it would not serve jim and muskets purposes to speak against that!

Poor chap, they're all ignoring you! But I won't. I'll speak against it. It would be safer everywhere if no-one bothered with "having a faith". 'Tis "faiths" that fuel hatred towards gay people, women, etc. Claiming that the nation of your faith is a tad better than the nations of other people's faiths is just a big lie. The fact is, we're not better, we're just slightly less bad. We're very bad instead of very very bad. And, in many respects, even that's a moot point. Women bishops, anyone? Gay marriage, guys?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: bobad
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 07:06 PM

"Gunmen on a motorbike shot dead three people, including an eight-year-old girl, as they fired on a group outside a church in Cairo, Egypt's interior ministry said.

Sunday night's attack was the first such assault targeting Christians in Cairo since the military coup that ousted president Mohamed Morsi.

It targeted a group of people who had emerged from the church in north Cairo's Al-Warak neighbourhood after attending a wedding, the ministry said.

It said an eight-year-old girl, a woman and a man were killed and nine others wounded in the attack.

"There were two men on a motorbike and one of them opened fire," said the interior ministry."

Al Jazeera

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 07:28 PM

To say that a particular culture can influence people from that culture in such a way as to have an impact on how they may behave is not in itself an extreme thing to say.

For example, to say that most men in Britain have grown up in a sexist culture, and this means our attitudes and behaviour towards women are liable to be affected, and that this can be a factor underlying such things as domestic abuse and rape, is quite a reasonable thesis, and is not at all the same as saying that all British men are rapists or are likely to be rapists.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 07:44 PM

Was that you in The Grauniad the other day, M of H? My mum looks for my letter every morning and is nearly always disappointed, though I've had a good few in there over the years. I'll have to try harder!

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: bobad
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 07:49 PM

"To say that a particular culture can influence people from that culture in such a way as to have an impact on how they may behave is not in itself an extreme thing to say."

Unless that particular culture is Islamic then that makes you an Islamophobe.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 09:44 PM

that makes you an Islamophobe.

Not necessarily; you could simply be a ignorant jackass.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Oct 13 - 06:32 PM

Actually it'd be pretty weird to have a culture that didn't have an impact on how you behaved. I can't quite imagine such a thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 02:20 AM

So.. You reckon that criticising Islam makes you an Islamophobe but no such sanction for criticism of Christianity?

Is this an example of so called Christian persecution? I suspect its just whinging.   

The fact is, being accused of Islamophobia is because you are not deemed by others as being of that cult. There is a cultural issue here that if you criticise Islam you are criticising others but criticise Christianity and you are perceived as self criticism. Hence when The council of Mosques speak out against crime in the name of their faith, we don't call it Islamophobia.

We, in the sense of the majority of the population are perceived to be culturally Christian. I can't have an issue with my heritage but those that make the mental leap and count me as Christian, this perspective being an example, are deluding themselves.

The CofE gladly count anyone who is indigenously British as Christian. Especially when defending the role of the Lords Spiritual.

The God delusion surely moves in mysterious ways. ......

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 02:36 AM

The CofE gladly count anyone who is indigenously British as Christian

Where do you find such nonsense, or do you make it up yourself?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 03:56 AM

"Jim, Alibhai-Brown, Lord Ahmed, and Mohamed Shafiq were the ones I quoted at length (apart from Anne Cryer, Jack Straw and the Pakistani Ch4 journalist)"
None o them made the claim you did that 25000 British citizens were, by way of their culture, potential sexual perverts inclined to commit serious crimes, and you refuse to either give them having done so or linking us to what they said - this is totally your horrific invention.
I find it difficult to understand what you hope to achieve here.
You fill these threads with your hate-filled agenda - you refuse to qualify your claims with information, you ignore what others put up and you ignore requests for you to do so.
You have bent over backwards to remove my and others democratic rights to discuss these topics fully.
And you persistently lie on statements you have made, both on this thread and in the past.
Your friend Bobad fills page after page with 'facts' from an openly declared Islamaphobic hate-site which compares being a Muslim with being a member of the Ku Klux Klan.
He has presented similar 'facts' from similar sources in the past.
Criticising Islam does not make anybody an Islamophobe - distorting information, applying it to all Muslims and using every opportunity to pass on that message most certainly does.
Add to this your refusal to put this in context with all forms of religious persecution and to attempt to deny others the right to do so makes you a dedicated fanatic on par with those producing such sites as Bobad draws his information from - your message is exactly the same.
The historically proven facts are simple.
Religious organisations, given the power to do so will pass on their 'messages' using any method at their disposal: mind bending indoctrination, spiritual blackmail, persecution and even mass murder, genocide and Holy War.      
This is pretty well admitted, and even boasted of by the most fanatical of those organisations.
Christianity is no exception to this practice; it has in the past and continues, where it can to indoctrinate and to persecute in the name of its God.
Its representatives have dismissed past behaviour as being correct and have openly stated that they would do the same again if they felt it necessary.
Calling for sympathy for such an organisation and refusing to put its own behaviour into context of the persecution it is now suffering is not to end that persecution, but to escalate it into Holy War.
They are all capable of it, they have all done it and they would all do it again if we let them
Doesn't get any more difficult than that
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 04:04 AM

I said only a tiny minority offend.
People from that culture said the offending came from that culture.
My assumption was that culture effects all, to a greater or lesser extent.
Again Jim, if not all what proportion will you accept?

And Jim, which of the murders on Bobad's list do you deny happened?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 04:22 AM

"I said only a tiny minority offend."
You said the entire Muslim Pakistani population are "implanted" (app. 5000,000
Nobody else has ever made such an outrageous claim nor would the law allow them to
I have no other information other than the few hundred who have been prosecuted - nor do you
"And Jim, which of the murders on Bobad's list do you deny happened?
Ditto - which of them can you or he prove did?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 05:25 AM

I remembered many of them Jim.
I googled a couple that I did not remember.
I am sure they did not need to make any up whatever their motivation.

I did say that "only a tiny minority" were offending.
Deny that?
I did assume that culture effects all.
AGAIN, WHAT PROPORTION WILL YOU ACCEPT IF NOT ALL?

Nobody else has ever made such an outrageous claim nor would the law allow them to

You have claimed the Britain is a "deeply racist country."
Is it in our genes or does it derive from our culture?

Should this academic be locked up?http://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2013/07/03/comment-our-worst-grooming-cases-are-rooted-in-the-culture-o

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 05:29 AM

No. I don't make it up. The church doesn't need me to. It gets on just fine on its own.

Its claim of how many Christians there are in this country is so far out compared to the number of people who would describe themselves as such. ..

ONS point it out far better than I ever could.

The RCN surveyed their members a few years ago and where "religion" was entered, most nurses used to put CofE where a patient didn't say otherwise. ONS quote this as one example of many where counting Christians is concerned.

I wouldn't get so wound up about it but such numbers are loudly displayed whenever disestablishment is debated. Also, the rather repugnant but legislatively accurate "Christian country" tosh.

We are a multicultural country yet one cult, with less than 1% of the population being active, insist on keeping laws based on their particular superstition. Their exclusively male leaders are allowed to sit in the upper house.

21st century anyone?

If they weren't embedded in law, rational people wouldn't have to criticise so much. Laws concerning equality wouldn't have to give them clauses to let them discriminate against women or have the freedom to call a lifestyle unnatural.

After all, if we question their persecution we are classed as persecuting them.

It wouldn't take much to allow Christians to get on with their hobby. Just cast their statutory influence out and the rest of us can get on with our lives without superstition being an influence on law.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 05:44 AM

So how do you justify, "The CofE gladly count anyone who is indigenously British as Christian"?
They do not.
Did you make it up?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 05:51 AM

"THE ENGLISH CHURCH CENSUS
The English Church Census was carried out by Christian Research on 8 May 2005 with the participation of 18,720 churches - half of the total of 37,501 known churches in England originally contacted. Statistics and figures below are therefore based on information supplied by churches on attendance figures for all services on May 2005.
Estimates have been made for those who did not respond, partly on the basis that their figures would on average be similar to those who did respond, but also comparing the results with previous studies and/or published denominational figures.
Further information on the English Church Census' methodology can be obtained from 'Religious Trends 6' and 'Pulling Out of the Nosedive', Christian Research 2006.

GENERAL CENSUS FINDINGS
Overall church attendance
Based on the Census findings it is now estimated that:
Of the 50,309,000 people living in England, 3,166,200 usually attend church on a Sunday; regular churchgoers therefore amount to 6.3% of the total population.
The number of existing churches in England is estimated to stand at 37,501.
The proportion of churches per individuals is now one church to 1,340 people; the size of the average Sunday congregation, however, is 84.
Since 1998 there has been an overall decline in regular church attendance of 15%, from 3,714,700 to 3,166,200.
The largest section of regular churchgoers, 57%, live in towns or suburban areas; 24% in cities or estates, and 19% in rural areas.

Ethnicity and regular churchgoing
Census figures reveal that at present 83% of churchgoers are white, 10% black, and 7% from various other non-white ethnic backgrounds.
This means that non-white church attendance has increased by 19% since 1998, while the white churchgoing community has dropped by 19%.
According to these figures, black church attendance is at least three times their proportion in the population, which was 2.6% in the 2001 National Census and is currently estimated to be around 3.8%.
Church attendance among Chinese, Korean and Japanese is also well above their proportion in the population, which is estimated at 0.8% and was 0.4% in 2001.
The proportion of non-white churchgoers is highest in London, where 44% of churchgoers are now black, 14% other non-white, and only 42% white."

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 05:56 AM

"I remembered many of them Jim"
No you did't - you only read cut-'n-pastes.
These lists are totally meaningless and valueless
They have been used to "prove" facts about Jews, Israelis, blacks, Christians, homosexuals, Americans...... you name it, there's a list
Some of the 'facts' are indisputably true, some invented, some axaggerated
The don't mean shit when taken out of context of the tit-fot-tat violence, the religious conflicts, the struggles for land, oil, profits... that is happening in the world today.
But please feel free to advocate on behalf of of a site that describes being a Muslim as being a member of the Ku Klux Klan so we can finally establish your political affiliations once and for all.
"AGAIN, WHAT PROPORTION WILL YOU ACCEPT IF NOT ALL?"
I don't accept any proportion as thing stand at the present.
All the people you have said support you in your "All male Pakistani" claims have warned against drawing conclusions from the handful of cases and the "unreliable and poorly researched" (researchers quote) figures availale - Jack Straw even countered any cultural claim by referring to "tostesterone buzzing young men"
But again, please feel free to pursue your "All male Pakistani" claim so we know where you stand
The fact that you absolved those who "suppress" their cultural implants makes it even worse.
Personally, I believe it far less dangerous to have a handful of in-your-face pedophiles do deal with than an entire population of suppressed pedophiles.
My view on British racism seems to have been borne out by the survey that produced a third of those questioned and admitting to holding and openly expressing racist views.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 06:39 AM

And on these spurious figures, (even The Archbishop of York conceded on NewsNight that they included where baptisms formed part of a service, hence bumping up the numbers with relatives of the child) the bishops carry on claiming their place in the legislature, claiming this is a Christian country.

By the way, the figures for the overall population are way out in the figures you put. By 10 million, or 20% as it works out... Dwindling numbers don't give me cause for celebration, but assertiveness in the face of them does give me cause for concern. And it should concern every rational person.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 07:48 AM

So how do you justify, "The CofE gladly count anyone who is indigenously British as Christian"?
They do not.
Did you make it up?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 07:49 AM

I didn't want to comment on Keith's link before I had a chance to read it properly - I suggest he does.
They are somewhat random selections from an obviously long and complex thesis, some of which suggests that Pakistani culture may, in part, have some influence on the behaviour of the handful of criminals apprehended and tried so far.
The author nowhere assets that this culture has influenced or infected even the cultural adherents, let alone those who have absorbed much of the culture of the country they have chosen to live in.
We have no idea of what he bases his opinions (that's all they are), nor do we know what conclusion he has reached about the fact that that same culture forbids sex outside marriage and drinking alcohol, both of which are major aspects of the criminal abuse in question.
I certainly am not in the position to dispute any learned theses, but none of us are in the position to use carefully extracted snippets in pursuit of a well established agenda.      
I meant to add to my comments about Jack Straw's statement on under-age sex, that it was his conclusions, along with those of the Scottish and Northern England police and judiciary that Keith carefully omitted from the original cutting he cut-'n-pasted - agenda driven or what!!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 08:02 AM

Jim, that the offending derives from the culture did not come from me.
I believe it because it has been said by many people in a position to know.
Deny that?

As McGrath said last night, everyone is affected to some extent by their culture.

You claim that British people are "deeply racist" because of our culture.
Why is OK for you to say that?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 08:13 AM

"I believe it because it has been said by many people in a position to know.
Deny that?"
I certainly don't deny it has been said, The BNP, Marine Le Penne et al say it all the time - oh, and you do!
There is no research not a shred of hard evidence to back up any of these statements
"You claim that British people are "deeply racist" because of our culture."
I make no such claims nor am I in the position to do so, I said it was an opinion based on my experience in three of Britain's major cities and from my reading
It appears to be an opinion shared by a third of those questioned who confessed to holding and expressing racist views.
im Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 08:20 AM

I believe it because it has been said by many people in a position to know.
Deny that?

(I do not include B** or Le Penne in that category. Nor should you)

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 08:33 AM

The Pope is in a position to know a thing or two about God. Doesn't make the concept any more credible.

Next bit of chiselling away at your claims.   Ready for it? They say that if you are baptized you are a Christian.

No you are not.   Unless you were baptized as an adult. I assume I was baptized. No idea if I was but it would be odd if I wasn't. Yet I have never ever not for a single minute been a Christian. Not even when doing a reading at a funeral. Not even when promising to bring my children up as Christians, not even the religious sections of the vows at my first wedding.

It is the tradition, not the imaginary friend that counts. Mumbling vows is part of the fun and fantasy for most people.

Happy now?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 08:34 AM

"Deny that?"
Of course I ******* do - show me one single statement from a responsible person "in a position to know" who links sexual perversion and culture to an entire gender of a population - produce it.
Can I re-iterate a point about my view on racism in Britain   
I have said I encountered passive racism from fellow workers on a regular basis throughout my working life.
Only on two occasions have I ever encountered people who would be prepared to act on that racism; once from a member of the National Front, another from somebody who was about to take part in a firebomb attack on a Travellers site in South London.
Britain as a whole is a hospitable, friendly and tolerant place, occasionally given to outbursts of racism by genuine concerns which are leapt upon by the sewer press and scum like Enoch Powell - not forgetting your good self, of course.
Now - your examples of of "people in the know" and their statements?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 08:44 AM

They say that if you are baptized you are a Christian.


Where do you find such nonsense, or do you make it up yourself?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 08:54 AM

Jim, again, I have provided many examples of people close to and within the community who say that the offending derives from the culture.

I think that all are influenced to a greater or lesser extent by their culture.

You can not deny the first.
The second is an obvious fact.

That is my whole case.
I have told you many times that I neither know nor care why they do it, but have to believe people like that.

We have had this exact dialogue on so many threads before.
You always start it when your arguments fail.
What is the point?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 01:20 PM

The state between baptism and confirmation.

So you are saying there us no such thing as a Christian child? Funny. Joe Offer bit my head off for saying that. Jerk The Sea Cadet accused me of bring an acolyte of Dawkins because he once got into a row with The Archbishop of Canterbury for that particular argument.

Now... I know you are a pick n mix rather than dedicated Christian, but at least when I quote your big cheese, don't accuse me of making the bloody thing up. People reading this, knowing no better would wonder if you are right, and that would be so frustrating because you deny your own faith when it suits you, print figures out of context when it suits you and slip in your politics through the back door when it suits you.

Well, you don't have to look up Christian in Wikipedia to question your hiding behind the title to substantiate your twaddle.



Any real Christians want to join the debate? The boutique ones have put roller skates on the goal posts again. (No pete, I said roller skates, not holy rollers.....)

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 03:00 PM

"Jim, again, I have provided many examples of people close to and within the community who say that the offending derives from the culture."
No you haven't - you have provided a couple of names who said exactly what I said they said - all of them warned against using what they did say the way you deliberately have - you were the person their mothers warned them about when they left home.
It is obvious that you intend to take what you claim they said with you to your grave.
You don't comment on my description of how the few convicted criminals in no way represent Muslim, Pakistani culture by their behaviour ; why should you, as it doesn't fit your agenda?
The people we are discussing are Products of a British Pakistani culture and have rejected many values of their old culture - their behaviour is far more representative of the host culture which can boast an overwhelming representation in sex crimes, under-age sex and pedophilia - all undisputed facts.
I think we're done here, don't you?
Your refusal to qualify your claim of statements by "those in the position to know" - is a sufficient-enough answer in itself.
You have emerged from your closet in your support for ultra-fascist websites claiming to be a Muslim is equivalent to belonging to the Ku-Klux-Clan.
You have re-stated your belief that all Male Pakistanis are implanted.
You have compounded your lying by not even attempting to defend your 'secret friends in responsible places.
In short - you have once again underlined what an appalling little man you really are.
What more could a girl possibly wish for?
Must go; I think Holby City is about to start - whoops, just started!
Bye now
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 03:14 PM

Musket, the CofE gets its numbers from the census, and they do not count babies as congregants.

Jim, you have made the same accusations as you always make, and I have knocked them down in the same way I always do.
What was the point?

All those people I quoted stated that there was an issue with that community and that offence, and they all ascribed it to the culture.
I do not know about that culture and have no interest in it.

I have not supported any website, but am quite certain that every murder and mass murder on that list happened.
Find just one that did not and you will force me to eat my words.
Good luck with that.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 04:39 PM

I'm a bit puzzled why a generalisation about the Britiish having a tendency, rooted in a national culture, to be racist, is particularly different from a suggested generalisation about Pakistan's culture playing a part in certain offending patterns among a tiny minority.

Neither might in fact be valid, but even so that would not mean that they were in themselves to be seen as an all compassing attack on the communities involved. The same would apply if either generalisation were valid.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket being patriotic
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 01:10 AM

All countries try to adopt an identity. Therefore all countries can encourage or at least not combat persecution of those not seen to be the mainstream. Scapegoat politics. Happens everywhere.

My beef here is that one particular identifiable group, unique in being a sizeable minority in many countries, is being highlighted out of context. As if the word Christian rather than minority is significant.



Keith. The CofE spent a huge PR campaign and commissioned polls to "clarify" the census information. Counting baptisms was part of it after expressing disappointment with the last census. Although their spin doctors were excellent at confusing religious with Christian. ... (Independent - article by Sandy Totsvig.)

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 02:53 AM

I think you mean Sandy Toksvig, but I still can not find it.
The census tells us how many adults describe themselves as Christian.
You can not "clarify" that and CofE does not try to.

"They say that if you are baptized you are a Christian."
Made up.

"The CofE gladly count anyone who is indigenously British as Christian"
Made up.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 04:08 AM

"I have not supported any website, but am quite certain that every murder and mass murder on that list happened."
A contradiction in terms - surely?
"I'm a bit puzzled why a generalisation about the British having a tendency, rooted in a national culture, to be racist"
Keith is the only one to have ever stated this Mac - I suggest you ask him.
I said I believed there to be a great deal of racism in Britain; I also said I encountered it regularly at work, so much so that I found myself avoiding conversations which might lead to the subject being raised.
It might have been an inheritance of Empire a long time ago, but that is long past and no longer a feature of British life.
A recent survey in Britain found that one third of the people questioned admitted to holding and expressing racist views.
Ironically, the report was published in The Daily Mail - one of the newspapers that regularly do their bit to sow the seeds of racial unrest with their attacks on immigrants and Muslims and linking them with unemployment, housing shortages and terrorism.
Britain has fairly stringent anti-racist laws, if race wasn't an issue this would be somewhat like regularly like spraying the Thames with anti-crocodile powder to drive them away.
Jim Carroll
Religion in Britain
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20675307

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 04:14 AM

"I have not supported any website, but am quite certain that every murder and mass murder on that list happened."
A contradiction in terms - surely?

No it is not, and don't call me Shirley.

I do not support the site.
I do believe that all those murders and mass murders happened to real people because they are Christian.
If you can find one that never happened, I would have to eat my words.
Good luck with that Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 04:18 AM

And there was me thinking religion was made up.....

If you are too lazy to find information before commenting or too ashamed to acknowledge it, that isn't my problem.

I repeat. Are there any Christians who would like to put their perspective to this debate? The one battling at present is a busted flush and is doing the creed no favours.

I can't spell Norwegian. Sorry about that. Really am.

You have no idea how fucking sorry I am.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 06:51 AM

Still puzzled. What you wrote there Jim still seems to be consistent with what I referred to as seeing a certain tendency towards racism as having some basis in British culture, of which the imperial past is still a significant element.

And the pont I was making was, whether it valid to see British culture as a factor in racism in this country or not, to suggest that it is should not be seen as an offensive attack on British people, or as asserting that most of them are racist. And it seems to me that the same holds true in principle where it is suggested that Pakistani culture might be a factor in the deviant behaviour of some people from that background. Or for that matter in any other behaviour.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: bobad
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 07:45 AM

'Dirty' Christians Now Afraid to Clean
By Ashfaq Yusufzai
Inter Press Service News Agency

PESHAWAR, Pakistan, Oct 23 2013 (IPS) - Like most Christians in Pakistan, Johar Maseeh did a little cleaning job. He was a sweeper in a factory in Peshawar, capital of Khyber Pakhtunkhwa province in northern Pakistan.

He was among the many killed in a bomb attack on the All Saints Church in Peshawar last month. He was also among the hundreds of thousands of Christians in Pakistan considered filthy by large numbers of the majority Muslims for doing such a cleaning job.

"Nobody is ready to shake hands with Christians," local tailor Rafiq Maseeh told IPS. "Literally, they are treated as an untouchable community." He said he had many Muslim customers but the majority were unwilling to talk to him.

"The majority of the Christian population is concentrated in Peshawar because they are afraid to live in rural areas due to reprisals by the local population."
"Nobody is ready to shake hands with Christians. They are treated as an untouchable community."

Vast numbers of Christians live in utter poverty in slums where they lack water, sanitation and health facilities. "We live in a two-room mud and brick house which has too little space to accommodate our 10-member family," Javid Pyara a sweeper at the University of Peshawar, told IPS.

Such as they are, they are often considered agents of the West.

"Whenever incidents of blasphemy take place anywhere in the world, the Christians in Pakistan bear the brunt," advocate Shamshad Khan told IPS. Last year, a church was burnt in nearby Mardan when riots erupted following the production of a blasphemous film by a U.S. filmmaker.

"People see Christians as non-Muslim and don't like them," he said.

The constitution of Pakistan bars Christians from the positions of president or prime minister. "They have been allotted one percent seats in the provincial and national assemblies but that doesn't mean that they are part of the country's politics," Shamshad Khan said.

"Many of the people don't want a handshake with the Christians," he said. "None in Pakistan would like to share food with them."

The only hope for many is to see their young lead a better life. "There is now a trend among young Christians to get education and get well-paid jobs. They are unwilling to take up cleaning jobs," 60-year-old Bhuta Maseeh, a sweeper in a government office, told IPS.

"I have graduated from a local college and now I am a cashier in a bank," his son Akram Maseeh told IPS. "About a dozen of my friends have also found good and lucrative jobs because they had got university education."

Many young Christians do see a better future than their parents have known. "We have Muslim friends. We sit together, eat together and discuss politics and other matters together. We respect one another," Mukhtiar Maseeh, a sweeper's son and a student of Islamia College in Peshawar, told IPS.

"Most Christian girls join nursing because the local girls don't," said local resident Jalal Maseeh. "They also get jobs as teachers in private and also government-run schools."

Now that move towards better living is shaken. The devastating suicide attack at the All Saints Church in militancy-stricken Peshawar has led to renewed fear among the poor Christian community. The bombing left 85 dead and 140 injured.

About 100,000 Christians living in Peshawar now struggle with terrorist threats after the fight to find acceptance and a decent living.

"We have no protection at all. The terrorists have diverted their guns towards us. We need tight security measures," Jamil Maseeh, 29, who was injured in the Sep. 22 attack, told IPS.

Muhammad Karim, a Peshawar-based religious scholar, said the attack aimed to create a rift between Muslims and Christians. "We should be thankful to the Christians because they are cleaning our hospitals, offices and markets. We must not harm them as they serve our people. Our religion Islam also advocates living in peace with non-Muslims."

"It is extremely shocking and shameful that we are unable to protect minorities," Maulana Tahir Ashrafi, chairman of the Ulema Council, told IPS. "According to the holy prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, it is the duty of the state to protect the places of worship of non-Muslims."

But friction with orthodox Muslims is a constant danger. "Relations between churches and mosques are not as cordial as they should be," Maulana Zafar Gul, a Muslim scholar, told IPS. He said the majority of Muslim clerics oppose churches but keep silent due to government and international pressure.

"We already lead miserable lives in Pakistan," chairman of the Pakistan Minority Movement Saleem Grabble told IPS. "Our people have been doing cleaning jobs on meagre wages. Now terror attacks are trying to eliminate us physically."

The latest attack against Christians was aimed at drawing international attention at a time when the government is determined to hold a dialogue with the Taliban, said Sawar Shah, a Lahore-based political science teacher. "Terrorists have been targeting mosques, the Shia community, funeral ceremonies, schools, marketplaces and government buildings to express their anger over Pakistan's role in war against terrorism."

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 07:52 AM

Musket.
If you are too lazy to find information before commenting or too ashamed to acknowledge

I am not.
You made that up too.
I tried but failed to find that Independent piece.
I should not have to search.
It is your evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 08:28 AM

This is discussion. I am on a phone, and posting links isn't easy. In debate with anyone else, people comment on the content of the post. You are supposed to comment on what I write, not my source. This is not a viva. I take it on the chin that you quote ( both in and out of context) from sources other than in your head, and you should afford others the same courtesy rather than name calling and denigrating.

My sources are genuine, and my Athens access allows me quick access to reliable checked sources, rather than whatever Google throws up. If you can't access some of it, that is not my issue. Name calling and accusations of making things up negates the possibility of meaningful discussion with you.

I repeat.

Are there any people out there who could give a credible Christian perspective on this issue? (I said credible, pete....). Only our resident boutique Christian has lost all vestiges of credibility.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 09:13 AM

So, Bobad: why don't they simply adopt Keith's solution and just leave? Problem sorted.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 09:25 AM

Christians are indeed being driven from their homelands Greg.
Those not actually killed.
It must all make you very happy.

More Musket balls!
I DO comment on what you say.
I tell you it is not true and ask you where it came from.

I understand that you are at a disadvantage trying to debate on a phone.
I was not having a go about the name spelling, just letting you know I was looking for the right person.
Google let us down.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 10:25 AM

Musket balls helped shape a few countries and settle more wars than religions started.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 10:50 AM

"It must all make you very happy."
You are the only one here who has ever advocated or defended the persecution of any religion - you have even indulged in it yourself
Statements like yours (wherever you have claimed to got them from) continue to make the existence of entire communities miserable and dangerous.
Suggesting that Muslims are somehow perverts because of their culture - you now freely admit this though you lie in an attempt to involve others, make it impossible for ordinary law abiding people to go about their daily existence, putting their well-being, safety, and even their lives in danger from thugs who share your views.
Perhaps you might lay off accusing people of what you are indulging in yourself, and have done for a very long time.
"Still puzzled. What you wrote there Jim still seems to be consistent with what I referred to as seeing a certain tendency towards racism as having some basis in British culture, of which the imperial past is still a significant element. "
You have read what I think; to put it as simple as I am able;
Racism is the product of the unease and distrust created by racist thugs like Keith, the BNP and the sewer press.
It has nothing whatever to do with British culture, which in fact has evolved to reject racism, even to the position of building in laws to prevent the twisted people who would play on the insecurities of society.
Britain's Imperial past is just that - its past, and no more relevant than bear-baiting or hanging people.
You are either being extremely obtuse or are in the process of developing your own agenda based on twisting what others have to say - the Keith disease.
Kindly reaspond to what I have written rather than what you appear to want me to have written.
I did not "assert British people are racist; I said I witnessed a great deal of racism from having lived in three major cities, - one third of those surveyed have admitted they are - perhaps you might like to address those facts instead of beating about the bush.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 01:02 PM

"You are the only one here who has ever advocated or defended the persecution of any religion"

Not actually true, Jim. At no time has Keith ever said anything like that, so far as I am aware. On the other hand there have been several posts by at least one person in this thread saying that persecution of Christians is something to be expected and indeed welcomed.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 01:33 PM

there have been several posts by at least one person in this thread saying that persecution of Christians is something to be expected and indeed welcomed.

Give it up Kevin - in addition to misquotation, you are apparently intellectually incapable of recognizing sarcasm when you see it.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 01:44 PM

" At no time has Keith ever said anything like that, so far as I am aware"
Then you need your awareness sensors re-tuned Mac - I repeat
"Suggesting that Muslims are somehow perverts because of their culture - you now freely admit this though you lie in an attempt to involve others, make it impossible for ordinary law abiding people to go about their daily existence, putting their well-being, safety, and even their lives in danger from thugs who share your views.
Perhaps you might lay off accusing people of what you are indulging in yourself, and have done for a very long time.
Don't you consider branding all Pakistanis potential perverts persecution? (what a wonderful piece of alliteration).
Keith has done this regulary for several years and has confirmed it on this thread.
The fact that he has invented invisible friends who told him to say it - it is his opinion and he has confirmed it here.
Pay attention Mac
You seem to have taken over thoe role of his previous genii in a bottle.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 02:44 PM

Not only has Greg "advocated or defended the persecution of any religion" but you Jim said that you could see nothing wrong with it!

He now claims he did not mean it.
How about you Jim?

The view that the offending derived from the culture did not and could not come from me.
I know nothing about it and do not care why they do it anyway.
I just said that I believed it, as I might a doctor's diagnosis or a weather forecast or a surveyor's report.

That does not make me a bad person.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 03:01 PM

""Still puzzled. What you wrote there Jim still seems to be consistent with what I referred to as seeing a certain tendency towards racism as having some basis in British culture, of which the imperial past is still a significant element.""

Since 30% of those surveyed effectively agreed with Jim, that would seem to be case proven MGoH.

The other protagonist in this circus is not the reasonable and thoughtful character he presents for our responses, which is why I no longer respond to him.

As the people whose opinions he cites also warned that no cultural implications should be drawn, his belief in their credibility seems somewhat variable.

The parts of their expressed opinions which he selects for belief, or non belief, would seem to suggest an obvious agenda to present a more than somewhat biased view.

An agenda which would not be served by recognition of the fact that the miscreants were acting so far outside of the boundaries set by their culture, that said culture was most obviously not driving their actions.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 03:11 PM

Jim, I have looked back.
You did not say there was nothing wrong with Greg's statements, but you did refuse to condemn them.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 03:18 PM

Don,
The other protagonist in this circus is not the reasonable and thoughtful character he presents for our responses, which is why I no longer respond to him.

I am a reasonable and thoughtful character.
You stopped responding to me because I caught you out in a lie.

As the people whose opinions he cites also warned that no cultural implications should be drawn,

Huh?
They all specifically stated that the offending derived from aspects of the culture!

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 03:30 PM

" I might a doctor's diagnosis or a weather forecast or a surveyor's report."
Are you completely insane?
You have invented claims by of statements by a couple of obscure journalists, a couple of politicians and a social worker and you compare their/your invented words to a doctor.
"That does not make me a bad person."
You lie, you make horrendous claims about an entire ethnic communities, you persistently misrepresent what people have said, you show no knowledge whatever of the subjects you continue to dominate with your extremism, at one time your sole input was entirely made up of carefully selected and sometimes doctored cut-'n-pastes, now you have become even to lazy to do that, you contradict people whose lives have been taken up with these subjects, you call us liars, you scurry behind your own ignorance "I'm no expert"....
You now are finally corned into supporting an extremist fascist site.   
Why are you here Keith if you are not going to show some genuine interest in these subjects and show some respect for those who already do?
Your behaviour is totally unacceptable and it's destroying this forum for those of us who take these things seriously and take a genuine interest in them.
You are not a bad person Keith , you are thoroughly evil individual who seems to take pleasure in inflicting harm and discomfort on others.
Behave like a half-decent human being and stop inflicting damage on a good forum.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 04:41 PM

a couple of obscure journalists, a couple of politicians and a social worker
Jasmim Alibhai-Brown.
Lord Ahmed.
Jack Straw.
Mohamed Shafiq.
Anne Cryer.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 05:06 PM

'...the people whose opinions he cites also warned that no cultural implications should be drawn...'
.,,.

Oh, 4·gods·sake Don; not back to the delectable Miss Rice-Davies YET AGAIN!...

Oh shut up for christs sake michael -- what's the bloody use of arguing with these hidebound dogooding ½witz...

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 05:48 PM

Greg "advocated or defended the persecution of any religion"...
He now claims he did not mean it.

Jesus wept.

Keith, get a brain, already. There must be a good used one on the market somewhere at a reasonable price, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 06:00 PM

So did you mean what you said in those posts Greg?
No irony please.
No sarcasm please.
Did you mean what you said in those posts Greg?
A straight yes or no please.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 06:05 PM

Keith has one for sale.

One previous owner. Hardly used, low mileage. £5.00 ono.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 10:19 PM

I can't see how anything Jim quoted there from Keith could be reasonably said to be advocating or defending the persecution of any religion. That is not an accusation that should be thrown at anyone without being able to point at specific and unambiguous words or actions which do that.

Greg's words on the other hand did in fact do precisely that in respect of Christians. He now suggests that they were sarcasm. However they did not read in their context as sarcasm or irony. Possibly they might have been a kind of exaggeration of what he actually believes, which isn't at all the same thing. I hazard that rather than actually welcoming murderous persecution of the wrong kind of religious minority he just doesn't think it is a matter of any significance.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 04:26 AM

I can't see how anything Jim quoted there from Keith could be reasonably said to be advocating or defending the persecution of any religion"
Then explain his behaviour
Explain how branding an entire culture with 'The mark of Cain' by claiming that they are implanted sex criminals cannot be considered "persecution"
That is what Keith claimed and what he continues to claim here.
It is his sole input into every single discussion we have ever had on Muslims on this forum.
You want top know what persecution is - put yourself in the position of families who such an accusation is aimed at, the shopkeepers who have their premises vandalised with graffiti and their windows broken, those who have had shit and petrol poured through their letter-boxes.
The mothers afraid for the safety of their children who often have to run a gauntlet of spitting and jeering fellow-students each time some religious nutter takes it into his head to plant a bomb somewhere.
Keith's language is the language of hate and persecution - it is the same type of statement that packed off six million Jews to the gas chambers, and would have sent every other Jew in existence there had the war gone differently.
If you want to justify that statement Mac, please do, and join Keith in his campaign - otherwise, explain why it is not persecution, instead of waffling about life a wandering ghost muttering "I can't see...." - get yourself some glasses if you are having trouble with your eyesight.
If you think is behaviour explain why he won't tell us what his "imaginary friends" actually said instead of waving about a bunch of names of people who said nothing of the sort and who, on the contrary, said that it is dangerous to draw any conclusion whatever from the little knowledge we do know of the few cases of underage sex that have involved Muslims.
Why won't he just point out one single ne of the people who has ever suggested that the entire Muslim culture is infected with a tendency towards sexual criminality - I'll tell you why - because none of them have ever said it and none of them would ever have dared to for fear of losing their jobs and for fear of being prosecuted under Britain's hate laws, that's why!!!
What's it to be Mac - is he right in what he said, is claiming all Muslims to be culturally implanted both justified and in the best interests of the Muslim people in Britain
Or is it a statement aimed at making the lives of every single one of those people miserable and extremely dangerous - DECISION TIME.
Jasmim Alibhai-Brown.
"Lord Ahmed, Jack Straw, Mohamed Shafiq, Anne Cryer"
What did they say Keith? - not your bigoted summing up - what did they actually say, where did they say it, and why are they still working and not banged up for inciting extreme hatred?
Quotes and links to their quotes please - not doctored by you, but actual, real-life opinions of these people you keep hiding behind
WHAT DID THEY ACTUALLY SAY???
Once you have provided that, we can then make a start on why the opinions of four relatively obscure people (apart from Jack Straw) should be taken on such a fundamental matter, of police, judiciary, researchers, politicians, social workers, human rights bodies...., even the British Prime Minister, all who have, at one time or another warned against linking the behaviour of a handful of Muslim extremists and fanatics with the general behaviour of the Muslim population of Britain.
There - you both have your starters for ten....
Jim Carroll
   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 04:39 AM

claiming that they are implanted sex criminals cannot be considered "persecution"
That is what Keith claimed and what he continues to claim here.

I have never claimed any such thing, and stated repeatedly that it was not an issue of Islam.

What they said was that the offending derived from a contempt for females and for Western females in particular, unhappy arranged marriages and disaproval of any relationships between the sexes outside of marriage.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 04:44 AM

Huffington Post 8May 2012

Mr Shafiq said: "There is a significant problem for the British Pakistani community, there is an over-representation amongst recent convictions in the crime of on-street grooming, there should be no silence in addressing the issue of race as this is central to the actions of these criminals.

"They think that white teenage girls are worthless and can be abused without a second thought; it is this sort of behaviour that is bringing shame on our community.

"I urge the police and the councils not to be frightened to address this issue, there is a strong lesson that you cannot ignore race or be over sensitive."

He added: "I have been overwhelmed by the support the Ramadhan Foundation has been given by young people for our campaign on child grooming

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 04:49 AM

By Yasmin Alibhai-brown

Britain's first Muslim peer has linked unhappy arranged marriages to the grooming of girls by Asian gangs. His courage to speak out should be applauded, not vilified.

This week, a Muslim peer broke the code of silence that pervades British-Asian communities and spoke out against the criminal practice of forced marriages.

He starkly stated that there was a connection between forced marriages and the Pakistani gangs in the north of England convicted last month of entrapping and grooming young, often white, girls for sex.

He said that British-born Pakistani men are too often forced into loveless marriages with cousins from abroad and suggested this encouraged them to seek out these young girls.

It was time, he told the British Muslim community, to look more closely at the underlying causes of the crimes committed by such grooming gangs. Time for Muslims to do more to promote UK-based marriages.

For giving an honest, informed and heartfelt opinion, Lord Ahmed of Rotherham has been assailed, abused and ripped apart by the religious and cultural guardians of those communities in a reaction that has been utterly disgraceful.

So let me say loud and clear that the coerced marriages Lord Ahmed is talking about are inhuman. Those parents who enforce them claim they are legitimate and say they provide the only way to ensure their young remain linked to extended family networks and prevent them becoming 'westernised'.

We have all heard the dreadful tales of young girls and women handed over to cousins in Pakistan or to men they have never seen in Bangladesh and India.

The problem is most widespread among Muslims, though a considerable number of Sikh families also believe their daughters should accept, without protest, husbands who are chosen for them.
Courageous: Lord Ahmed has broken the silence surrounding arranged marriages but has been abused for his honesty

http://www.sacw.net/article1945.html

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 04:52 AM

But when I ask myself was a greater crime committed by the Asian molesters, the honest answer has to be yes. Conscientious Asian community activists in Derby have said that these criminal acts were nothing to do with race or religion. The perpetrators were bad men who did terrible things. That is surely self-delusion or a cover-up.

The official inquiry into the case concluded that the care agencies were ill-equipped to deal with the scale of the abuse being perpetrated by the gang. But it also concluded that there needs to be an honest national conversation about how exploitation in some places intersects with "culture, ethnicity and identity".

Let's begin then. Because without such an open conversation, prejudices fester and millions of Britons come to believe that serious offenders from certain ethnic and religious groups have protected status within our country.

The Cornwall and Derby villains who used girls as sex toys believed that their victims had "asked for it", which in our permissive age is an easy excuse. Very young girls are sexualised in the social environment, so paedophiles must feel they are only helping themselves to the goodies that are on offer. But in the case of the Asian men, disgusting cultural beliefs further validate their acts and their uncontrollable lechery is, in part, a symptom of repressed sexuality and sick attitudes.

Most Asian men do not go around raping young white girls and women; many have happy and equal relationships with white partners. However, an alarming number of Asian individuals, families and communities do believe that white females have no morals, are free and available, deserving of no respect or protection.
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/yasmin-alibhai-brown/yasmin-alibhaibrown-asian-men-white-women-and-a-taboo-that-must-be-broken-2146251.html

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 04:57 AM

The reason I (Alibhai-Brown) feel compelled to write about these particular groomers and rapists is because I am Asian, and I know how their repugnant activities are rebounding on all of us and on good Asian men.
The internet is rife with horrifying stories about such gangs. They are a mix of fact and fiction. More dangerously still, the British public is starting to think that we Asians hide and excuse the child rapists — and, that way, we all become sinners.
Every Asian and Muslim I know, including some imams, want these monsters exposed, named and put away.
But not all of them, I admit, want to delve deeper and confront some of the values that drive such men to prey on white females.
This is where it gets tricky. It is easy to loathe the abusers, but much harder to ask what it is about some Asian cultural assumptions that make the paedophiles feel no guilt or shame about what they do.
Mohammed Shafiq, director of the Lancashire-based Ramadhan Foundation, a charity working for ethnic harmony, has warned: 'The police are over-cautious because they fear being branded racist'
Mohammed Shafiq, director of the Lancashire-based Ramadhan Foundation, a charity working for ethnic harmony, has warned: 'The police are over-cautious because they fear being branded racist'

Mohammed Shafiq, director of the Lancashire-based Ramadhan Foundation, a charity working for ethnic harmony, has warned: 'The police are over-cautious because they fear being branded racist'
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2236081/Why-Muslim-mother-I-believe-damaging-hide-truth-Asian-sex-gangs.html

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 05:02 AM

There it might have ended but for Jack Straw, who rekindled passions on all sides when he said that such Pakistani men thought these females were easy meat who deserved no respect or consideration
...
But I still say we need to expose and discuss more openly the underpinning values of the Asian criminal rings in many of our cities. If we don't, the evil will grow. Fear of racism should no longer be the veil covering up hard truths. What the Derby gang did has planted and raised more racism – possibly even among good, benign people – than my words ever could. I am sure recruitment to extremist parties has gone up too. Prominent anti-racists know that, but will not openly say so.

The criminals feel they did no wrong. These girls to them are trash, asking to be wasted – unlike their own women, who must be kept from the disorderly world out there
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/yasmin-alibhai-brown/yasmin-alibhai-brown-jack-straw-is-right-to-ask-hard-questions-about-asian-men-2180318.html

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 05:13 AM

Guardian 18May 2012
But Warsi, who is Muslim, told the London Evening Standard newspaper: "There is a small minority of Pakistani men who believe that white girls are fair game. And we have to be prepared to say that. You can only start solving a problem if you acknowledge it first.

"This small minority who see women as second-class citizens, and white women probably as third-class citizens, are to be spoken out against."

Britain's most senior Muslim politician said she had decided to speak out after her father, who moved to the UK from Punjab, told her she should be "out there condemning [the crime] as loudly as you could".

"In mosque after mosque, this should be raised as an issue so that anybody remotely involved should start to feel that the community is turning on them," Warsi said. "Communities have a responsibility to stand up and say: 'This is wrong, this will not be tolerated'."

She urged the authorities to have the confidence to tackle allegations involving minorities. "Cultural sensitivity should never be a bar to applying the law," Warsi added.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 06:21 AM

Nowhere do any of these exampled (unlinked and unqualified) link the entire Muslim population with either sex crimes or terrorist violence - as you have persistently done.
Nowhere does anybody suggest a Muslim population suppressing a cultural urge to have sex with underage women - as you have done.
Nowhere is there one single suggestion that somewhere lurking in the Muslim culture an aspect that inclines all Muslim males to criminal rape of underage women - that is your argument, pure and simple.
Nowhere have you included the statements of all of them that no conclusions can be drawn from the few figures we have and it would be utterly wrong to to do so - that is exactly what you have done.
Nowhere is there any evidence of "over-representation of anything other than law-abiding behaviour in the million strong Muslim population in Britain - you have painted each and every one of them as potention sexual perverts suppressing their perversions.
Your examples, the few that there are, are not from the people you claim back your sick statement
GIVE US ONE SINGLE QUOTE FROM ONE SINGLE 'WITNESS' WHO HAS EVER ATTEMPTRD TO LINK THE ENTIRE PAKISTANI POPULATION WITH SEXUAL CRIMINALITY'
This is what you have persistently done, and failure to back upo your claims makes you not only a liar, but also a rabid racist who invents horrific scenarios to smear a large British immigrant population.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 06:24 AM

Note what Baroness Warsi said
"This small minority who see women as second-class citizens, and white women probably as third-class citizens, are to be spoken out against."

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 07:33 AM

I always said "tiny minority."

The quotes are of Alibhai-Brown, Mohamed Shafiq, Lord Ahmed and Baroness Warsi who were my original sources along with Cryer and Straw.

Each quote links the offending to the culture.
Culture affects everyone to some extent.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 08:08 AM

An example of a minority Muslim community suffering.

BBC today.
Burmese opposition leader Aung San Suu Kyi has blamed what she described as a "climate of fear" for exacerbating tensions between Muslims and Buddhists.

Asked about the fate of 140,000 Muslims who have been forced to leave their homes, she said that many Buddhists had also fled Burma, also known as Myanmar.

Ms Suu Kyi denied that Muslims had been subjected to ethnic cleansing.

She has been criticised for not defending Muslims since she emerged from house arrest two years ago.

Over the past two years, violence between Buddhists and Rohingya Muslims has broken out in the state of Rakhine. There have also been clashes between Buddhists and Muslims in central Burma.

Muslims have borne the worst of the violence, with hundreds killed, often by mobs armed with knives and sticks.

'Dictatorial regime'
Continue reading the main story
"
Start Quote

People assume too readily that on a path to democracy - that we are democratising at a fast rate - but it is not happening like that at all"

Aung San Suu Kyi
Burmese opposition leader
"I think the problem is due to the fear felt by both sides," she told the BBC's Mishal Husain.

"Muslims have been targeted but Buddhists have also been subjected to violence.

"This fear is what is leading to all this trouble."

She said tensions had also been inflamed by a worldwide perception - also felt in Burma - that global Muslim power was "very great".

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 10:06 AM

"I always said "tiny minority."
No you didn't - you said "all male Pakistanis" - you have just been given your full quote
We have always said a tiny minority - you denied it and implicated the entire community in sex crime
You lied, you continue to lie - you are a lying racist shit
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 10:11 AM

Your quote - in case you missed it

Don, no one on this thread has claimed any of those things.
Don I do now "believe that all male Pakistani Muslims have a culturally implanted tendency" but only because of the testimony of all those knowledgeable people, and always acknowledging that only a tiny minority succumb.
Do you dismiss all that just because it does not fit your preconceptions, or do you have some powerful evidence to the contrary that you have not shared with us?"

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 10:22 AM

Did you not spot "tiny minority" Jim.

And the first line says that no-one, least of all me, believes that "Muslims are all evil, oppressive, chauvinist, paedophile rapists, made so by their cultural upbringing"

So in the very first line of that 3 year old post I make clear that I do not believe that which you have accused me of believing every few weeks ever since!

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket laughing
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 01:04 PM

Hey Keith!

Remember your bit about Christians don't do this, Christians all do that etc..?

Interesting story on BBC website about an anti Semitic vicar in the Guildford diocese....

Same diocese that wanted me to share their delusion before letting me pay them for a wedding service. Sanctimonious twats.

Anything else you want to add to your preposterous list of what Christians do or not do? Granted, slagging off Israel is ok, slagging off Israel on cultural grounds is pushing the anti Semitic button if you aren't careful, and it all becomes insignificant compared to abusing the position of trust society gives you when you repay it by raping children and vulnerable adults.. But after all, you are the one who wishes to generalise when it comes to the word Christian.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 01:16 PM

You say "a tiny minority succumb" you also say all male Pakistanis are implanted - which is the point of your disgusting statement and makes it worse - the potential perverts in our midst
I cannot believe you are attempting to dig yourself out of this hole with more lying evasion
Did you say you were a Christian - are all Christians as honest as you?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 02:40 PM

Culture IS implanted in everyone Jim.
All those people did blame the culture.
I would not know myself, but why would I not believe them?
Why don't you believe them?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 02:51 PM

Musket.
Just a misunderstanding.
JTA yesterday.
(JTA) — An anti-Semitism claim against an Anglican vicar by the Board of Deputies of British Jews was resolved through mediation.
The board brought the complaint against the Rev. Stephen Sizer to the Church of England a year ago, saying Sizer made anti-Semitic statements and published links to anti-Semitic websites, including links posted on his blog that promote Holocaust denial and Zionist conspiracy theories.
The complaint was made to the Bishop of Guildford by Jonathan Arkush on behalf of the Board of Deputies of British Jews.
According to the conciliation report to the Bishop of Guildford, Sizer did not accept "the substance of the complaint" but "regrets that on occasions his use of language has caused offense to some and agrees that he should have reflected on his choice of words more carefully. The content of certain websites having been drawn to his attention, Dr. Sizer also accepts that he should have taken more care before linking to them."
Mediation sessions between Arkush and Sizer led by Christian and Jewish counselors were held for three months prior to the final conciliation report.
Arkush told the Jewish Chronicle that the Jewish Board "welcomes Rev. Sizer's acknowledgments and undertakings, which clearly demonstrate that conduct on his part which led to the complaint was unbecoming or inappropriate to a minister of the Church of England."
Sizer said in his 25-page response to the complaint that he has "done nothing more than express legitimate political opinions, based on reasoned argument."
"I repudiate all forms of illegal violence, whether directed toward Jews or Palestinians. I have repeatedly advocated for the resolution of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict by peaceful means based on the implementation of international law," Sizer said in his response.
On his blog Wednesday, Sizer wrote, "I care passionately about the safety of the Jewish people and the right of Israel to exist within internationally agreed borders."


Read more: http://www.jta.org/2013/10/23/news-opinion/israel-middle-east/complaint-against-anglican-vicar-over-anti-semitic-links-resolved#ixzz2ifOrsYN6

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 10:54 PM

Nothing in the quotes from Keith you give, Jim, amount to advocating or defending persecution of Muslims, which is what you accused him.

It seems pretty self evident that how we act is to some extent culturally conditioned. That does not mean it is the only factor, or necessarily the most important factor, and it applies to highly desirable ways of behaving as well as to undesirable ways.

So when Alibhai-Brown refers to "some Asian cultural assumptions that make the paedophiles feel no guilt or shame about what they do" she is making a reasonable comment about the relation between Pakistani culture and some tragic events.

Well, you could say that words such as that could be used to argue in favour of persecuting Pakistani Muslims, as potential perverts, or even as advocating such persecution. But I note you do not, but reserve that accusation for Keith, who in reality goes no further than Alibhai-Brown.

Very possibly she might be mistaken about the relevance of Pakistani culture on what those men did, after all there are many other factors involved. But it is clearly important for people in that culture to think about such things, just as it is important for Catholics to think about analogous things touched on in this thread.
...............
In a discussion like this the only loyalty we have should be to what we believe to be the truth. Getting all adversarial about it, identifying enemies and friends, staying silent when someone "on our side" says something wrong, and always seeking to interpret what the enemy says in the worst possible light... That's not about loyalty to the truth, it's about trying to win a war.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Elmore
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 11:21 PM

Felt persecuted today, when the Christian cashier in the Waffle House told me to have a blessed day. Didn't want to have a blessed day.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 12:57 AM

Great post, McG. But it'll be water off duck's back to dear old fatuous hidebound doctrinaire mind-made-up-please-don't-confuse-me-with-facts Carroll. Don't know why you all waste so much emotion & energy even arguing with one so self-evidently incapable of rational objective thought. As they say, "Just leave him alone. He's not worth it".

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket between courses
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 01:06 AM

You cut and pasted an excellent example of climb down there Keith.

I'd take notes from it on how to do so if I were you. Might come in handy one day.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 02:59 AM

"Culture IS implanted in everyone Jim."
Thankyou for your confirmation of your obnoxious and inhuman views views,
After your debacle here I really was going to drop this, but as you appear to have declared your intention to continue your hate campaign against other religions i will continue to raise it as a perfect example of this subject - religious intolerance, in your case Christian intolerance of unbelievers and those who stray from the declared path.
I have to confess that I have trouble in squaring the example of being a Christian that you present with those in my experience - I've never met a Christian Jihadist before.
If you knew the slightest thing about culture you would know that it is in a constant state of flux, changing as the surrounding circumstances change; it is not an implant (that is the stuff of science fiction and the invention of novelists like Orwell and Huxley).
The criminals you brand as having been "implanted by their religion" are in fact British Muslims who, if anything, are displaying some of the worst aspects of the behaviour of the misfits of British society.
One of the known facts of paedophilia in Britain, in all its forms, is that it is overwhelmingly an indigenous crime perpetrated by British criminals.
The greatest change within the Irish Travelling communities we worked with in Britain took place when they moved from their cultural rural home territories into cities like Dublin, London, Liverpool and Birmingham and took up all new urban pastimes - drugs, car theft, mugging, burglary - even sex outside marriage.....
You really need to get out more - try your local lending library - so much more informative than relying on Googling your knowledge from Islamophobic sites for your information.
Read a book sometime - it can be fun!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 03:03 AM

Sorry Mike - forgot to say hello.
Where were you when he needed you?
He must have forgotten to rub the bottle to request another wish - or maybe you were afraid someone was going to occupy your empty armchair!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 03:08 AM

The criminals you brand as having been "implanted by their religion"

Fake quote.
I actually stated repeatedly that it was nothing to do with religion.

1000 anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 03:16 AM

OK, I claim it - 1000!!

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket between courses
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 04:07 AM

1000 posts eh?

Just think. Half way to having as many posts as there have been years that minority persecution has been branded Christian persecution.

Has anybody thought about why Christians have to be a special case yet?

The idea of there being more than any other group is not an answer. That would be acknowledging that burgers give you heart disease but McDonald's must be worse for you than others on the basis they sell more globally.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 04:09 AM

"In a discussion like this the only loyalty we have should be to what we believe to be the truth. Getting all adversarial about it, identifying enemies and friends, staying silent when someone "on our side" says something wrong, and always seeking to interpret what the enemy says in the worst possible light... That's not about loyalty to the truth, it's about trying to win a war."

There speaks the voice of truth and reason. One of the few in this thread (Joe qualifies also, of course).

The Usual Suspects - you need to READ AND LEARN.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 04:15 AM

Musket, was I wrong yesterday to report an example of a Muslim minority possibly persecuted (Aung San Suu Kyi disputed it and I am an admirer)?

Should I have just said minority and not Muslim?
Why did you not pick me up on it as you do everything else?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 04:47 AM

"Fake quote. I actually stated repeatedly that it was nothing to do with religion."
Fake claim
Your persistent attempts to denigrate the entire Pakistani Muslim population of Britain by equating their behaviour with the worst aspects of Islamic fundamentalism, coupled with your recent 'born again Christian' status indicates otherwise - that yours is a truely 'Holy War'.
Forgot to thank you for "praying for me" by the way - will be of great comfort in the darkest hours!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket between courses
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 05:07 AM

Because my observations are based on your agenda not your honest mistakes. It would have been churlish to do so.

Just remember, whilst onlookers speak of entrenched positions and other tosh, some of the usual suspects start the ball rolling and others merely respond.

To not respond is seen by the more shallow posters as acceptance of sometimes preposterous positions. Negativity thrives when reason can no longer be arsed to argue.

I may be busy but can always find the 5 mins distraction to challenge.

Pip Pip

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 05:54 AM

Fake quote, true claim Jim.
Produce the quote or simisar if true.
You can not because you are just lying again.

Would you like the true quotes again?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: bobad
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 07:32 AM

Well said McGofH but somehow the words pearls and swine come to mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 02:28 PM

""somehow the words pearls and swine come to mind.""

I thought it was supposed to be the other side doing the name calling>

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 03:32 PM

"Pearls before swine" is a allusion, not name calling.

I am going on my honeymoon in the morning.
Away for a week or so.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Elmore
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 04:11 PM

I'll fill in for Keith while he's away, just to keep this swill ....er swell thread going. By the way, How many angels dance on the head of a pin?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 04:21 PM

I am going on my honeymoon in the morning. Away for a week or so.

THANK YOU JESUS, THANK YOU LORD!

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 04:41 PM

"The other side"!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 05:47 PM

Congratulations, Keith, anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 08:20 PM

Can't say I have any desire to participate in this thread. It got nasty long ago. But still, I got a certain satisfaction out of claiming the 1000th post...

Whenever somebody is persecuted for whatever minority he/she belongs to, it's injustice. Is there anything more to say?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Elmore
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 08:54 PM

Thanks, Joe.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 10:19 PM

Precisely, Joe - the Millennium Man. And the daft thing is, everybody who has been arguing so ferociously about it clearly agrees with that ( leaving aside one who later said he didn't mean to be taken seriously).

But that's the Mudcat for you. We could have an impassioned debate about whether   Humpty Dumpty was free range or not, and what the implications of that might be the the global economy and the future of Morris dancing.

And I half expect to find I've ignited such a debate by saying that...

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket between courses
Date: 26 Oct 13 - 03:16 AM

I think you will find we dispensed with the sinister attributes of Morris dancing in this very thread.

Don't you know. .......

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Oct 13 - 05:49 AM

""Whenever somebody is persecuted for whatever minority he/she belongs to, it's injustice. Is there anything more to say?""

Nothing whatever Joe!

But some will still be putting their own agenda first for another 1000 posts.

It's a shame that the human race is prevented from achieving tolerance and compassion for all by those who see one religion, culture, nationality, or skin colour as more worthy than others.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Oct 13 - 08:07 AM

But in fact nobody actually claimed that to be the case. It was a case of "Whatever you say now, I know what you really think and denounce you."

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Oct 13 - 08:38 AM

Keith, the OP, in his thread title, was addressing the situation of a specified demographic. That was what he intended the thread to deal with. Hardly his fault that it was hijacked by a mob of usual·suspect "Well·wot·about"-niks, who should be ashamed of self-righteously screaming their own agendas on someone else's thread because of some inaccurately perceived history on the part of the originator, instead of making their points in their own threads.

But will they be? In a pig's bumhole they will!

Oh, sod off Carroll, Don, the whole stinking holier-than-thou boiling of you. You make me absolutely sick.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Oct 13 - 10:27 AM

The Usual Suspects scream like banshees about one person's perceived 'agenda', whilst their own agenda(s) are perfectly plain for anyone who's 'normal' and 'rational' to see. And then the daft buggers wonder why those of us who are normal and rational won't join in their silly, hysterical, childish game. Not fuckin' likely - I've actually got a life.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Elmore
Date: 26 Oct 13 - 11:23 AM

I wonder where Keith went on his honeymoon.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Oct 13 - 12:06 PM

Does six posts since this thread was revived count as refusing to join in, Backwoodsman?

I distrust it when people about "agendas". All too often it's what I was referring to "Whatever you say now, I know what you really think and denounce you." Witchfinder General stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket sans knackers
Date: 26 Oct 13 - 12:41 PM

Wow..

Disagree and you have an agenda.

Begin a thread with a not very well disguised agenda and you are a saint.

Smell a twat in the ether and you are boorish.

No matter Musket. Just think.. There may be one in every village but this thread appears to have a commune of the buggers.

So once more. Why is the concern about the word Christian rather than the word persecution?

There's a word to describe it, although you get shouted down by shallow apologists for using it...









Agenda

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Oct 13 - 12:47 PM

Ireland?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Oct 13 - 03:26 PM

Gro-o-o-a-nnnnnnn!

OK, I'm obviously not getting the point over (although I'm persuaded that Bograt, as a self-confessed piss-taker and winder-up of "those twats on Mudcat", knows full well what the point is, and is simply indulging his delight in perverse, insulting role-playing), let's pose a hypothetical question.........

Q. How does persecution of one group by another, on the basis of nothing more than their religious beliefs, begin?

A. Purely hypothetically, let's suppose that one or two people who hold different beliefs, or perhaps no beliefs at all (let's call them group G) start to sneer at and take the piss out of those who have different beliefs (let's call the, for want of a better name, Group J). No problem, just a wind-up, a bit of innocent, harmless fun, eh? After a while, quite a few more people have joined G and got into the fun of all the sneering and piss-taking, and the suggestion is mooted that the people in J are somehow deficient mentally - not 'normal' or 'rational' like the 'clever', 'superior' people in G. With me so far? Recognise the scenario, in it's historical manifestations and, more recently on a certain Internet forum?

After a while, and group G has grown even further, an idea forms amongst a few of the more ambitious and outspoken G-ites that the fact that the country's economic fortunes are at a low ebb, lots of people out of work, businesses going bust etc, is all down to those fucking abnormal, irrational J-ites, whose mental deficiencies already established are so severe as to render them 'sub-human'. So, what shall us 'normal', 'rational' G-ites do about those sub-human bastards.............??

No need to go further, it couldn't happen here...........could it?

Perhaps The Usual Suspects need to read back through the stuff they've posted and think about some of the subliminal messages they give out? Whether, in their words, or the way they present their arguments, they are guilty of allowing themselves to slip into group J?

Telling people who believe in a Deity that they are somehow part of a class whose members are judged deficient by virtue of being abnormal or irrational, or holding grudges against, and calling for the forced dissolution of a whole church because of the criminal acts of a small minority of its members, sounds like the first steps down the road to persecution.

Anyone for tennis?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Oct 13 - 03:51 PM

"Whether, in their words, or the way they present their arguments, they are guilty of allowing themselves to slip into group J?"

group G!

Bloody iPad!

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Oct 13 - 09:06 PM

The word agenda is almost always used in this kind of context as a way of blurring precisely what the person it's aimed at is being accused of. That's why I dislike it. Very rarely do people use it about themselves. That's why I said "aimed at", because tyat is generally how it is used.

And it always seems to "you have an agenda" rather than "this is what your agenda is". It's such an amorphous word, because in a sense in anything anybody ever does they have something that could be called "an agenda".   When you boil an egg you have an agenda, to have an egg you can eat.

Much better to say "this is what I think you (or they) are trying to do, and I am against it". Or for it maybe.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Oct 13 - 02:39 AM

Persecution in Iran

A court in Iran has sentenced four Christians to 80 lashes each for drinking wine during Communion. Mervyn Thomas, of Christian Solidarity Worldwide, said that the sentences "effectively criminalise the Christian sacrament of sharing in the Lord's Supper" in Iran.

The Times, 26 October 2013

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket getting his tuppence worth
Date: 27 Oct 13 - 03:55 AM

Two words. Christian and persecution.

If this thread is to note how the age old practice of scapegoating large minorities in order to find blame for your society's failings, then the thread has merit.

If people note that history and demographics leads to communities with large Christian identity being the largest group being persecuted, then again, interesting topic, although cold consideration of any pogrom activity isn't as much fun as discussing England's chances in Rio.

However, the op, or Keith as he is known, has in many posts let his true colours fly. There is a word for it. Agenda. He makes it clear he speaks as a Christian. The significance being his wish to highlight what happens to Christians, not what happens to minorities anyway. His declared support for UKIP puts him in a good position to blame minorities for the ills of society. Look up the thread if you can be arsed, see his comparison of Christians leaving their homelands versus Muslims "coming over here. "

If otherwise objective people wish to support that and find ways of ridiculing those who point it out, shame on them.

Taking the piss appears to be getting rather sophisticated. ......

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Oct 13 - 04:29 AM

Bograt, it would be helpful if you made it clear who your diatribes are directed at.

If me, I'll repeat - I am not an 'apologist'. At no time have I expressed support for KoH or what you and a couple of others perceive as his 'agenda', in fact I have expressed condemnation of it if it does, indeed, exist.

But I cannot and will not accept the practice, by those who claim to be champions of the persecuted and oppressed, of themselves using the tactics of the persecutor and oppressor.

When you stop belittling and denigrating those whose beliefs and faiths differ from yours, and when Jim stops calling for punishment of an entire group, by dissolution of their established church, for the sins of a small minority of that group, I'll butt out and leave you to get your fun by kicking KoH's perceived agenda-driven arguments to death.

'He who comes to equity must do so with clean hands'. And not just in the courts.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 27 Oct 13 - 05:20 AM

Stop getting touchy. If the cap fits and all that, but I hadn't really considered you when trying to prick the bubble of pomposity. You do tend to take sides rather than be objective, but that's just an observation. I have faults too.

Me? I can't belittle faiths other than my own, on account of being bottom of the table. Only managed a draw against bloody Barnsley yesterday for Clapton's sake.... Mind you, when any sanctimonious sod, of which there are a few here, say that "As a Christian" etc it just reinforces my point. As a wanker, my right arm is stronger than my left. Just as valid and just as pertinent to the point being made.

Anyway, nice to be in a thread and not take the exact opposite view of Jim Carroll. I did say he could start an argument in an empty room, but to be fair to him, Keith misrepresents his points more than he takes Keith's out of context. A plague on both their houses. With the proviso that the abortion context of Eire is one of the best reasons I can think of for civilised countries pushing religions to the fringes and not letting them interfere with reality. If you don't, you end up with the poor buggers in USA seeing how Dumbfuckistan is crippling their government.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Oct 13 - 05:24 AM

If Keith were running for office, it would make sense to try to unravel 'his true colours". But in a discussion it makes a lot more sense to focus on the actual topic.

The significance being his wish to highlight what happens to Christians, not what happens to minorities anyway.

Clearly so, that's pretty clearly signposted in the thread title. If I started a thread about Romanian Folk Music it'd be because I wished to "highlight" Romanian Folk Music, not because I wanted to pour derision on the folk music of other countries, or other types of Romanian music.

Of course a thread can quite properly range into wider issues, but that wasn't what happened here. It wasn't about comparing the situation of other persecuted minorities, but rather about marginalising the scale and significance of the persecution of Christians in many countries.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 27 Oct 13 - 06:17 AM

Fine. Ok. Right you are.

Pointing out Christians suffering from persecution is abhorrent as it is divisive and elitist, saying, not inferring but actually bloody saying... That the life of a Christian is more important than the life of anyone without that particular imaginary friend.

It is also in line with a concerted effort by the Anglican movement to highlight reasons for society in general to take them more seriously, as they complain of losing influence. Losing influence, described as persecution by one ex Archbishop of Canterbury.

Keith seems to be doing his bit. Pillocks like us are then expected to fall for it.

Your next point?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,keith
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 10:33 AM

Thanks for the kind wishes McGrath.

My faith has not been an issue here.
We are all against persecution unless greg meant what he said.
If one group is bearing the brunt of oppression in recent years, it can not be wrong to point that out.

His declared support for UKIP

Made up.
I have never expressed such support, and don't.

Look up the thread if you can be arsed, see his comparison of Christians leaving their homelands versus Muslims "coming over here. "

Also made up.
I have never made any such comparison.
In reply to Don claiming Muslims are persecuted in Britain I pointed out that Christians are being forced to leave their homelands while Muslims choose to migrate into UK.
That is evidence against their persecution here.
That is all.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 11:10 AM

You have made that mistake before Musket.

Subject: RE: BS: What about the UKIP then?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 13 - 08:54 AM

"we have to my knowledge at least one regular mudcatter who claims to be a member, has been posting on other thread yet misses the opportunity to put us all right."
Who Musket?
You made a comment on another thread as if you thought I was one.
I do not know why.



Subject: RE: BS: What about the UKIP then?
From: GUEST,Musket sans reality check
Date: 05 May 13 - 09:08 AM

Use of the word "we". Dead giveaway.





Subject: RE: BS: What about the UKIP then?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 13 - 03:05 PM

Musket, one of us has made a mistake.
I do not think it was me.
Not a big issue, but you should be more careful about jumping to conclusions.

Subject: RE: BS: What about the UKIP then?
From: GUEST,Musket sans Ian
Date: 06 May 13 - 08:52 AM

In which case Keith I would humbly apologise. Your posts on the subject previously have been of the possessive use of words though, hence my attitude to some of your posts. My opinion of UKIP is not a positive one.


Subject: RE: BS: What about the UKIP then?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 May 13 - 02:00 PM

Musket, I do not believe I have used the possessive with ref to any party.
You are mistaken.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 12:45 PM

I take it you're back then.

If I did make a mistake with the possessive use of "we" I am wrong. At this point, I don't believe that to be the case. It was in the UKIP thread I'm sure but could have been another. Im not dreaming, I was shocked that someone who on many subjects can come over as rational, clear headed and informative could subscribe to such shallow nonsense.

I'll save the idea of apologies for now, in case your obsessive trawling brings it up. I of course trust you to be objective and say if it is there. Funny that I have used it in debate often yet your rebuttals are few and cleverly worded.

I admitted I had an old Bay City Rollers album but because it is there in the history of posts, I'd look an idiot denying it now. Despite wishing I'd kept it "up there. "

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 01:29 PM

"We" there would appear pretty clearly to mean "we on the Mudcat " rather than "we in UKIP".   

Personal pronouns can indeed trap people into misunderstandings. "He said he was angry" - is that the same he the second time or someone else, and if so, whom?

I thought this thread had expired. Perhaps it should...

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 01:52 PM

Musket how clear a rebuttal do you need than that I just dredged up?
You DID "dream" that I said any such thing.
I have never said "we" in reference to ANY party.

I do eventually give up denying the same old false accusations.
That does not make them true!

I get so sick of you and others making up your mind about me with no justification for your prejudices, and claiming I have some agenda or other.
I have none.
Respond to what I say instead of endlessly making up dark motives for my saying it.
Of course, that would be a bit harder.
Right?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 02:10 PM

I thought this thread had expired. Perhaps it should...

Better that it hadn't been started in the first instance since its premise is largely bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 05:10 PM

When assessing the agenda of a poster, one only has to look at his reactions to similar events involving different groupings, and his comments about those groups, whether positive or negative, along with general tendency to apply either the same, or different values depending on the particular groups.

The denied agenda will appear with inconvenient clarity from such research.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 05:30 PM

As the previous poster himself has amply illustrated.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: bobad
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 06:47 PM

The previous GUEST post was mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Elmore
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 08:43 PM

Damn! Thought I had outlived this dreadful divisive thread. I'm not sure that I will now.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 08:44 PM

So which was "the previous poster"?

But as for When assessing the agenda of a poster, one only has to look at his reactions to similar events involving different groupings, and his comments about those groups, whether positive or negative, along with general tendency to apply either the same, or different values depending on the particular groups. Do people actually do that kind of thing? Or is Don testing out his irony muscles.

I do wish we could have a ironic typeface available to us here...

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Elmore
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 09:48 PM

Did you hear about the horse who walked into a bar? Bartender says "Why the long face?"

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 02:49 AM

Why do you need to "assess the agenda" Don.
Why not just refute what I say?
Too hard right?
You think that if you "assess" that I have an "agenda" you are absolved from addressing what I actually say.
Useful if you are unable to address what I actually say!

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 04:07 AM

Let us all take one step back guys. Yes we would all like to see harmony and a multicultural society, but I fear it is never going to happen. Britain has become a powder keg over the past decade. Extremists on both sides are using the issues of immigration and the right to practice their faith for their own agenda.

No one seems to want to face the truth about what is happening in the UK today. UKIP seem to be making remarkable advances in any region they stand, which is a reflection of feeling. The current coalition government are responding by hijacking UKIP polices.

Britain is in a mess, hospitals and schools simply can't cope with the numbers coming in from Eastern European countries let alone anywhere else. Bulgarian and Romanian newspapers are currently advising people what benefits to claim for once they arrive in the UK in 2014.

We can't bury our heads in the sand, immigration is a problem in the UK and will continue to be so until the government face up to the problem and introduce stringent measures such as not allowing immigrants the right to claim benefits and blocking them from obtaining housing benefit.

Did you ever watch an old Black and white British film set in the 1940's, a time of pride in our culture, heritage and tradition, not you are also afraid to mention your pride to be British in case some old hippy or radical accuses you of being racist or xenophobic, oh how the love these words.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 04:19 AM

This thread was about religious persecution.
The discussion has run its course.
I only posted to refute some false statements made about me personally (again!).

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 05:49 AM

""I do wish we could have a ironic typeface available to us here...""

No irony McGrath! Would you say that there is no sign of an agenda, when somebody whines about the persecution of a minority which happens to be a group of which he considers himself a member, yet sees no persecution in confining another group in an open prison camp, because he doesn't consider their lives to be as important as those of his own persuasion?

I realise that the poster in question is considered one of the good guys by many here, which means that nobody will take the trouble to examine the basic attitudes displayed.

I am not inclined to put together a large number of illustrative posts which you can easily find for yourselves, but I assure you they are there.

Beating one's head against the wall is all very well, but I've had enough, so I'm out of this thread.

If you care about putting the bits together, RTFM.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket the radical hippy
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 06:52 AM

One thing I do agree with Keith about is that this thread has run its course.

Which is why I would love to tackle the rather silly points made by guest Peter, but errands to run, dog to walk, work to do, paint to watch dry......

Oh bugger, can't resist.

Yeah, the old black and white days. When you were black or white. Poufs were thrown in prison, immigration was actually very high, but you didn't feel ashamed to call it the banana boat and tell jokes in working men's clubs between songs about wogs and pakis. Good old Enoch, a clever posh bloke eh? Rivers of blood! Mind you, he didn't say that shallow fools will spend the next forty years trying to make it so.

Yeah, we didn't have the issues of today, zzzzzzzzzzzzz



The UK has always been a multicultural melting pot and always will. Tolerance and mutual understanding is what keeps sixty million people in, in international standards, decent civilised abodes. Hate exists still, but like the bigotry that spawns it, it will die. Already, religious intolerance is shunned by most respectable folk, and barriers to equal living are falling.

Perhaps one day we can read Mudcat threads without seeing defensive xenophobic racism eh? I suggest going into settings and set your screen to black and white, if it helps. It might also be good to try beginning your sentences with "I'm not racist but..." Lots of older people will show you how to do it. Then you can be British! Or at least the small narrow minded few who call themselves British At the expense of .. Err..   The British.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 06:54 AM

yet sees no persecution in confining another group in an open prison camp
Of course incarceration is a kind of persecution.
Who do you claim denies that obvious truth Don?
Irony??

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 06:59 AM

I am not inclined to put together a large number of illustrative posts which you can easily find for yourselves, but I assure you they are there.

You could not "put together a large number of illustrative posts" because there is not a single one.
Same old lie.
Same old baseless accusation, because you can not address what I really post.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Van
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 07:14 AM

Guest Peter should do a little research into benefit law and a little less reading propaganda. It ain't laid out on a plate. And by the way all the east Europeans I know are catholic. Last time I looked they count as Christians.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 07:57 AM

Returning to the subject, this appeared in "The Age" on Saturday.

"Not so, rights observers say: they are all part of the biggest human rights challenge now facing the globe - religious intolerance - and also part of a largely unobserved global war on Christians. Things may be worse now for more Christians than at any time in history, including under the Roman Empire.
''War'' does not mean a unified campaign directed by a single co-ordinating mind. But it is no exaggeration,.....


What is happening? Why are Christians especially at risk, and why are Western governments, media and churches so reluctant to acknowledge it, let alone act? And, as some observers suggest, is religious persecution heading back to the West?"
http://www.theage.com.au/comment/age-of-intolerance-the-war-on-religion-20131101-2ws4o.html

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket smiling
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 11:44 AM

For someone who reckons the thread has passed its sell by date, you seem quite happy to find articles supporting the rearguard action presently in progress.

I especially like the bit asking why western governments, media and churches are reluctant to acknowledge persecution? Strange, but even some churches don't take appalling circumstances and blow them out of proportion in an attempt to blackmail society into seeing their presence as relevant to normal people any more.

The Romans fed them to the lions allegedly. The majority of the population of The UK merely fail to listen to their message. Both protagonists seem to be lumped together as persecutors.

Pass me that bag of nails eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Elmore
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 12:10 PM

War And Peace, Les Miserables, Nicholas Nickleby, The Bible, The Quran. All sorter than this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 12:23 PM

I'm beginning to think my willy is shorter than this thread.....






Oh.














Bugger

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Elmore
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 02:26 PM

LOL.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 03:13 PM

take appalling circumstances and blow them out of proportion in an attempt to blackmail society into seeing their presence as relevant to normal people any more.

No-one does that Musket.
And I have never linked myself to UKIP.
Will you acknowledge that you were mistaken in both claims please.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Elmore
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 04:14 PM

"Will you acknowledge that you were mistaken in both claims please." Should be concluded with a question mark, unless you meant it as some sort of command.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 05:11 PM

Quite right.
You have done us all a great service.
Thank you Elmore.
Obviously I and everyone else knew that, and that it was an accidental omission, so were you just being malicious?
Do you never make such horrendous mistakes yourself Elmore dear?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Elmore
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 05:36 PM

"I and everyone else" is ungrammatical and redundant.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 06:55 PM

Hey Elmo, you have become redundant.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Elmore
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 07:54 PM

Hey Guest, Perhaps I have become redundant, but, at the very least, I know that organised religion is a scam improvised by the wealthy and the patriarchs to keep the workers and the women in line. Regards, ELMORE.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 07:56 PM

"Will you acknowledge that you were mistaken in both claims please."

Of course he won't. But then very few of us seem able to do that. Typically we tend to avoid the actual instances where we've been demonstrably wrong and divert the argument to some other safer territory. Time and time again it happens on both sides. ("sides"! That's what happens when discussions are replaced by adversarial contests, arguments or debates.

(Incidentally "I and everyone else knew that" is perfectly correct grammar.)

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Elmore
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 08:00 PM

P.S. Hey GUEST: Nice to correspond with Keith of Hartford's mother. Did he enjoy the Phish concert over the weekend.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 12:57 AM

I have acknowledged already (BBC grammar) that I could have been wrong. I cannot however confirm that, hence question mark ending or command ending, I am unable to satisfy Keith. I cannot acknowledge something that falls outside of my experience.

The balance of probability alone puts a synergy between Keith and views I hear from people of that political inclination. I will however, to be fair, find a spare 10 mins and trawl Keith's posts. You never know, I may get lucky. A rather nice fellow mudcatter did similar for someone who denied their stance and rather kindly pm'd them to me. As I rarely log in, it was sat for some time. ..

Oh. By the way, I can't acknowledge I am wrong regarding the drive by Christian bodies to highlight persecution in order to gain relevance. It's all there to be seen in church newsletters and even Hansard. ....

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 02:51 AM

I can't acknowledge I am wrong regarding the drive by Christian bodies to highlight persecution in order to gain relevance. It's all there to be seen in church newsletters and even Hansard.

No it is not.
Made up shit.
I never said "we" in reference to any political organisation.
Made up shit.

Instead of challenging the truth of what I say, you make up shit about me to imply a sinister motive for telling the truth.

You deny that there is an ongoing Christian holocaust because they are just the largest minority, just as the Jews were the largest minority put up for extermination by Hitler.
Do you deny the Jewish Holocaust too?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket gettin.. can't be arsed
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 05:47 AM

Don't be so bloody pathetic.

Christian Holocaust. .......

If I were Jewish I'd find that rather insulting. As I am not. . Oh. I still find it insulting.

Grow up. Stop asking people to deny popular held opinions on the basis they don't accord with your blinkered view. The Christian main churches, Anglican, Catholic and looney fringe are all calling for attempts to assert credibility with society at large. Oh and calling Hansard made up shit doesn't help your credibility either. I am sure Lord Runcie would like his speeches to be recognised.

Prat.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 05:59 AM

So your "10 minute trawl" of my posts failed to find any justification for your baseless accusations.
You were wrong and should withdraw and apologise.
I would have done the trawl BEFORE making the accusation.

Re holocaust, from the The Age piece I linked to yesterday.

"Todd Johnson, of Gordon Conwell's Centre for the Study of Global Christianity, estimates 70 million Christians have died for their faith, 45 million of them in the 20th century.
John Allen notes that ''this boom in religious violence is still very much a growth industry. Christians today are by some order of magnitude the most persecuted religious body on the planet,'' suffering not just martyrdom but all forms of intimidation and oppression in record numbers.
The US Commission on International Religious Freedom, which monitors religious persecution and names the worst offenders in an annual report, listed 16 nations guilty of ''heinous and systematic'' offences in its 2012 report.
Only one group is under attack in all 16 nations: Christians."

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 07:58 AM

The Christian main churches, Anglican, Catholic and looney fringe are all calling for attempts to assert credibility with society at large

Any organisation would.
What has that to do with religious persecution?
Nothing.

calling Hansard made up shit doesn't help your credibility either

If I ever did!
But of course I did not.
I just said that " the drive by Christian bodies to highlight persecution in order to gain relevance. It's all there to be seen in church newsletters and even Hansard. ...." was made up shit.

It is.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 08:44 AM

"Israel Today" today.
http://www.israeltoday.co.il/NewsItem/tabid/178/nid/24227/Default.aspx?hp=readmore

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 09:17 AM

"The Christian Holocaust" Canada Free Press last year.
http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/49757

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 10:44 AM

You're not that important.

I'll get ten minutes at some stage this week. This posting is nice distraction between commitments in what for a lazy bastard like me is a long day.

Any organisation would. Decent organisations don't refer to their increasing irrelevance as persecution. Then point out real persecution wishing us to link them somehow.

Pathetic.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 05:38 PM

Decent organisations don't refer to their increasing irrelevance as persecution.

Nor does any church.
More made up shit.

Then point out real persecution

How can you deny that there is real persecution?
You make yourself ridiculous!

You're not that important.
I'll get ten minutes at some stage this week.

You have had since last May.
That is when I told you you were wrong that I ever spoke about UKIP as "we."
SIX MONTHS later you are still pushing what you have known for months is a LIE.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Elmore
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 05:48 PM

Happy Birthday, Lenny Slye.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 09:49 PM

I'd quite agree that the distinction between persecution and lesser things which make minorities feel uncomfortable ought not to be blurred. Though there is a relationship between them. Making anti-semitic or anti-Islamic or anti-Catholic jokes, for example, isn't the same as burning down places of worship or mobbing people in the streets, and in most cases does not indicate those things are on the way. But there are commonalities in the mindset of intolerance.

And so far as I have seen that distinction between persecution and the lesser unpleasantnesses is generally recognised in the kind of stuff Musket airily dismisses in that scatter-gun post.   

Of course there have been plenty of examples in this thread of attempts to blur such distinctions by people who would evidently see genuine persecution as insignificant when the minority under attack are Christians.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 09:54 PM

Incidentally I was amused to see how Elmore's response to my comment on a grammatical howler echoed what I said about the way we are likely to respond to identified error.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Elmore
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 10:06 PM

Youse is too smart for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 01:02 AM

Just out of interest, who precisely is denying there is no persecution? Must be some of that made up shit you find so fascinating.

There again, in the final analysis religion per se is made up shit and you find it far more fascinating than I do. Although I find it very fascinating how sometimes intelligent people can fix their blinkers and get their bit firmly between their teeth.

The basis for your argument seems to be subjective analysis of news stories. The basis of mine is the drive to win back privilege. Don't take my word for it, Google ex Bishops of Canterbury or published minutes of general synod or the proposed poll of Catholics. A colleague who used to be a Jehovas Witness mentioned recently that if he were still there, the door knocking commitment has increased lately to combat the lack of God in UK society.

Quite.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 02:52 AM

Musket, if you accept that religious persecution is a real issue and that Christians are over-represented, then we are in agreement.

Supposing religion IS just made up shit, freedom of belief is regarded as a fundamental human right.
Do you not accept that Musket?

You say I rely on "subjective analysis of news stories."
That suggests I reject stuff that challenges my view.
Not true.
I have found nothing to challenge my view, and neither you nor anyone else has produced a single snippet that challenges me or supports you.
You just use made up shit.

I do not need to be selective.
There is nothing to select from.

You say " Don't take my word for it, Google ex Bishops of Canterbury or published minutes of general synod or the proposed poll of Catholics"

There is nothing in there to challenge me or support you.
If there was you would google and post it.
But you can't.
More made up shit.

Elmore, you are too hard on yourself.
I did omit a question mark and you did spot it.
Good job Elmore!
No-one can say your contribution was irrelevant.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket between courses
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 05:28 AM

I never disagreed with the first point. I questioned the reasons behind highlighting it in preference to persecution of minorities based on their human rights of choice of Creed.

I would fight to the death (verbally and not really) your right to enjoy your religion or indeed the right to do whatever you want so long as it hurts nobody else. Just because religion is made up shit on the intellectual level, not everybody can think on such a level. So yeah, I do accept that. Please accept that religion does affect and in many cases compromises the human rights of others.

Any news on the lady Bishops yet? Does The Church of England accept the will of the people yet and accept the human rights of gays? or divorcees? what about the religions that still subjugate women in the way CofE used to accept? What does your Bible tell us about gender equality?

Stop challenging me by saying I support the opposite view of what I actually say. If anyone was arsed to scroll up, your paper tiger looks absurd.

This is a discussion thread. People either read a view and accept it or read a view and research it. Feel free.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 06:12 AM

I questioned the reasons behind highlighting it in preference to persecution of minorities based on their human rights of choice of Creed.
Why?
Just say if you accept it or not.

" Does The Church of England accept the will of the people yet and accept the human rights of gays?"

Yes.

" or divorcees?"

Yes

" what about the religions that still subjugate women in the way CofE used to accept?"

What about them?

" What does your Bible tell us about gender equality?"

That it was not considered an issue thousands of years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 09:59 AM

I'm confused. Are you a Christian or aren't Catholics Christians?

You neatly sidestepped the women bishops mind.

Are you a Christian or are people who quote the Bible to justify the points I just raised Christians?

Are you comfortable being dismissed as a boutique Christian?

If the Church of England do what you claim, then some of their branches need management attention for not following policy. Or management needs changing for being weak.

You are describing an ideal church or perhaps your local hangout. You are not describing what Lambeth Palace are quite happy to perpetuate.

To permit is to promote.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 10:10 AM

Again you demonstrate your profound ignorance of religion.
I would be happy to educate you on the subject, but not on a thread devoted to religious persecution.

Restart one of the many threads on the subject and I will accommodate you.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 10:17 AM

And yes (sob) calling me a boutique Christian is soooo hurtful (sob)...

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 11:16 AM

What the hell does "boutique Christian" mean?

I don't suppose it can be

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 11:22 AM

What the hell does "boutique Christian" mean?

I don't suppose it can be this

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 11:42 AM

There are now more than 45.2 million displaced people — 15.4 million refugees, 937,000 asylum seekers and 28.8 million forced to flee within the borders of their own countries. The crisis is at its worst since 1994, according to a report released today by the United Nations. And more unaccompanied children sought asylum last year than ever before.
The report, based on data collected from governments, nongovernmental organizations and the UN's refugee agency, says about 7.6 million people were displaced during 2012 alone because of conflict or persecution. On average, about 20,000 people were displaced every day in 2012.
War continued to be the major cause of displacement in 2012. Five countries mired in conflict — Afghanistan, Somalia, Iraq, Syria and Sudan — accounted for 55 percent of all refugees in 2012. Of those displaced last year, 1.1 million are refugees and 6.5 million are internally displaced people.
Among the more shocking data released by the United Nations was this: of all refugees, almost half were below the age of 18 and more than 21,000 new asylum applications were submitted by children in 2012, the highest ever number recorded by the UN's refugee agency.
Many countries are stepping up aid and seeking solutions to end the growing refugee problem, which can be a heavy burden for still developing nations. Typically, more than 80 percent of refugees find asylum in developing countries. In 2012, however, Germany hosted the most refugees outside of Pakistan and Iran.
The numbers do not reflect those displaced this year by the spiraling conflict in Syria. The United Nations says 1.6 million Syrian have fled the country since the conflict began in 2011. The UN Deputy High Commissioner for Refugees T. Alexander Aleinikoff said he expects there to be 3 million total Syrian refugees by the end of 2013.
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/war/130619/refugees-worldwide-numbers-stats-displaced-people-afghanistan-somalia-sudan-syria-iraq

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Elmore
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 11:48 AM

I know what a cafeteria Catholic is, but not a boutique Christian. It must be something really bad, because when people argue about religion, it gets extremely nasty.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 12:05 PM

I'll throw my faith in your face but I'm too educated to believe in it. I look down on the petes of this world for their rustic simple minded adherence to Christianity but if the Muskets of this world laugh, I'll remember I'm a Christian too..


Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz




The pick n mix stall may be convenient in the entrance to the boutique but it makes any assertion of any type about a grouping called Christian irrelevant. If it is such a broad church, then fine, Alan Hanson is an ex footballer but he speaks bollocks on the subject. But I doubt many of the Christians being persecuted around the globe would recognise the affinity some, Keith chief amongst them, is trying to make the link to.

If you want to discuss persecution and refugees, Don has succinctly given a pointer to the problem. Although Keith's stance of Christians fleeing but Muslims "coming over here" waffle has no place in earnest debate.

I know of a "political" party who would love to debate that with you Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 12:50 PM

There are quite a few differences between Shi'ites and Sunnis and Sufis, but it still makes sense to talk about Islamophobia.

Keith commented on the fact members of one religious community come in large numbers to live in Britain, and contrasted that with the fact that large numbers of members of another religious minority feel compelled to flee as refugees from various other countries. He suggested that this difference supports the view that persecution of religious minorities is not a major feature of Britain today. I cannot see why that should open him to hostile attacks, even by people who disagreed with his conclusion.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 01:12 PM

What religious community is that then? ONE religious COMMUNITY.?

Keith differentiates between his church and those that believe in the bible, so you aren't getting anywhere lumping flavours of Islam from different countries, traditions and issues as one.

Rather sad to see you post that. Sure, cutting me down to size is fine, trying to bring reason to a debate is commendable if somewhat futile, but don't have a pop at me for over simplifying and then see all Muslims as being a common community. The only commonality is knowing enough ancient Arabic to read from their scripture. A bit like the bible and Latin before priests had their power taken from them by everybody being able to read it and crucially, judge it.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 05:53 PM

It was Don who stupidly claimed "Muslims" are persecuted here as a single community.

I would love to discuss Christianity, but Christianity is irrelevant to this thread.

This thread is about the fact that Christians bear the brunt of religious persecution, and nothing in Don's last paste job contradicts that fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 06:18 PM

Christianity is irrelevant to this thread.

And there you have it - no point discussing matters with the brain dead.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 07:50 PM

You miss my point, Musket, I think. In fact I suspect you get it the wrong way round.

I wasn't suggesting that you fail to appreciate the differences between various varieties of Islam, as with Christianity. I was suggesting that you might be failing to recognising that the reality of these differences is not always the most important thing.

People who are hostile to Muslims, or Christians, or Jews do not generally worry about those differences. And typically in circumstances where genuine common persecution is involved, nor do adherents of those religions. (And of course I fully recognise that in all three traditions, more especially the former two, there has been a continuing history of persecution towards other branches of the same religion. Though aanyway in truth all three traditions are branches of the same religion in the first place.)

That's communality right there. But not just there. "The only commonality is knowing enough ancient Arabic to read from their scripture." That's a very significant commonaliity in itself. And so is something like the enormous Haj pilgrimage to Mecca, which is central to all varieties of Islam.
........................

I'd differ with Keith here on one point, when he rejects the claim that "Muslims are persecuted here as a single community". Or rather I'd distinguish. Muslims do not experience what I think it would be right to call "persecution" in Britain today. However insofar as they experience antagonism and hostility this liable to be is as Muslims.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Nov 13 - 01:14 AM

I agree with you Kevin.
I just made clear that the "one community" thing came from Don in case Musket used it as another stick to beat me with.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 07 Nov 13 - 02:29 AM

Fair enough Kevin, , although only to a point. I think Don was taken out of context. He too seemed to me to acknowledge the lumping together that sections of society either are brushed with or do the brushing. .

Keith on the other hand is far less ambiguous. He just said it to be a FACT that Christians bear the brunt of persecution.

Then he accuses me of saying things without foundation. ........

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Nov 13 - 02:57 AM

1100 !

He just said it to be a FACT that Christians bear the brunt of persecution.

Yes, and I have produced copious amounts of evidence to support that statement.

No-one has found one single snippet that contradicts it.

What is the basis of your challenge Musket?
Do you have an agenda?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 07 Nov 13 - 05:04 AM

Yes I do. Here it is.

My agenda is to laugh in the face of people who use loose terms such as "bear the brunt" and then throw in words such as statistics and evidence.

You assert Christians bear the brunt as it were. I say that not only is that not proven or could be proven, but the whole basis of such a pissing contest is unsavoury.

Unless you have a "Christian" agenda.

My agenda is persecution. Your agenda is Christian.

If you reckon your stance to be true, I suggest two things. Prove it. Explain the relevance of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Nov 13 - 06:07 AM

I have posted numerous links.
Every one contains the statement that Christians bear the brunt of current persecution.
Did you follow any of them?
Read any?

Prove it.
Copious evidence provided.

Explain the relevance of it.
It is an issue.
It was also an issue that Jews were the most persecuted minority in occupied Europe.
They bore the brunt of that persecution.
Stating that does not require or imply any agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Nov 13 - 06:37 AM

""Afghanistan, Somalia, Iraq, Syria and Sudan — accounted for 55 percent of all refugees in 2012. Of those displaced last year, 1.1 million are refugees and 6.5 million are internally displaced people.""

And that is only the ones who are still alive!

How can any other group be more persecuted than hese Muslims who make up 55% of all refugees and a huge proportion of those slaughtered.

You see Kevin, for some people, if it's Muslims killing other Muslims, of the wrong type, it is:

1) Not religious persecution.
2) Of no concern to them.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket's turn
Date: 07 Nov 13 - 06:45 AM

Christian persecution?

Here you go.

Fresh from the hen's bum.

Surely Christians wouldn't be behind wholesale persecution? zzzzz

Islamic persecution too, before you bleat.

Nothing special about Christians...

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Nov 13 - 07:19 AM

Of course it's religious persecution when Sunni Muslims do it to to Shi'ites or the other way round, or when It's Protestants and Catholics, and I have never heard of anyone who would deny it, and it's a horrible things.

But when we focus attention on one thing it is quite unjustifiable to assume we are denying that other things matter. "All this talk about religious persecution means you are denying the existence of ill treatment of people with disabilities/ genital mutilation of girls/ nuclear proliferation"...

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Nov 13 - 07:48 AM

No Kevin, what I posted directly refutes the claim that there is more persecution of Christians than of Muslims.

Whoever is putting the case that Christians are the most persecuted is relying on appeal to authority, authority with an axe to grind, and that is the most unreliable way to make a case.

We have two choices here! We can make a stand against persecution in all its forms, and put all our best efforts into eradicating it.

Or we can claim greater urgency in dealing with those who are like us and concentrate only on them, which takes us back to "and when they came for me........"

I know which course I would choose, and I'm trying very hard not to allow my distaste for those who choose the other to descend into outright contempt.

Just my tuppence worth!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Nov 13 - 08:04 AM

Musket, your link says "Homosexual acts are illegal in most African countries" not just Christian ones.
It is a cultural not a religious issue.

Anyway I accept that Christians are guilty of religious persecution.
At least one of my recent links gave an example.
Pity you did not read it!

Don,
""Afghanistan, Somalia, Iraq, Syria and Sudan — accounted for 55 percent of all refugees in 2012

More than a quarter of all the Christians in Syria have been displaced in recent months.
No other group comes close.
In Iraq the Christian community has been persecuted almost out of existance. Not true of any other minority since the Jews were expunged.
Afghanistan and Somalia. Are there any religious minorities to be persecuted?
In Sudan there has been a genocide of Christians.
I posted about it a few years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Nov 13 - 08:19 AM

Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 04:51 PM

From your list, let us just consider those conflicts that are of this century.
Sudan, where the Muslim government persecuted the Christian minority in Darfur to an extent verging on genocide.

And Iraq, where the once thriving Christian community has been persecuted almost to extinction.

Still no comment Don?

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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T - PM
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 06:12 PM

""Sudan, where the Muslim government persecuted the Christian minority in Darfur to an extent verging on genocide.""

I included Darfur because it was anti Christian.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Nov 13 - 08:32 AM

Washington Post 2 days ago.

The upcoming 75th anniversary of Kristallnacht makes this an auspicious time to raise awareness about the contemporary violence targeting religious minorities and their places of worship. Of particular concern are attacks against Christian minorities that have occurred with alarming frequency from Syria to Egypt, from Iraq to Pakistan, and from Kenya to Sudan.
November 9 marks 75 years since the pogrom against Jews committed by mobs throughout the Nazi Reich. Often called Kristallnacht, or the "Night of Broken Glass," when rioters killed or injured hundreds of Jews; burned over 1,000 synagogues; destroyed 7,000 Jewish-owned shops and businesses; vandalized cemeteries and schools, and; sent 30,000 Jews to German concentration camps. It marked a turning point in the escalating campaign of persecution culminating in the Holocaust.
These events, seared into Jewish collective memory, make us doubly aware—and duty bound—to raise our voices when the deadly brew of religious bigotry and wanton violence are mixed.
Today in Syria, a once thriving Christian population—a community nearly as ancient as that country's once great Jewish community—has been depopulated by 25 percent, according an estimate the Patriarch Melkite Greek Catholic Patriarch Gregorios III Laham shared with the BBC.
In September, The Associated Press reported that Syrian Christians in Maaloula—a community dating to the birth of Christianity and that still speaks Aramaic—were driven out or forcibly converted to Islam by rebels aligned with al-Qaeda.
"It is chaos, it is violence, it is blood, it is death. Life has been paralyzed. We have lost everything," said Archbishop Theophile Georges Kassab of Homs.
In Egypt, some supporters of ousted President Mohammed Morsi last summer unleashed their rage against that nation's Christians, a historic community constituting 20 percent of the country's population. Mobs burned dozens of Christian schools, convents, monasteries, institutions, and churches of any, and all Christian denominations. And just days ago, gunmen on a motorcycle opened fire outside a Coptic Christian church during a wedding, murdering four, including an 8-year-old girl.
"It never happened before in history that such a big number of churches were attacked on one day," Bishop Thomas, a Coptic Orthodox bishop in Assiut told Al Jazeera. "We normally used to have attacks once a month or so."
As Kristallnacht teaches, the burning of houses of worship can be a red alert that worse is yet to come. September saw the horrific Taliban bombing of Anglican worshippers in Pakistan, which took 85 lives, and, according to accounts shared by witnesses, the targeting for murder of Kenyan Christians—deliberately separated from others in a chilling reminder of Nazi "selections"—by al Shabaab terrorists in a Nairobi shopping mall.
Attacks like these have contributed to a decline in the Christian population in the Middle East and North Africa from 9.5 percent to 3.8 percent of the total population from 1910 to 2010, according to a Pew Forum report on Global Christianity.
Tellingly, Israel is the only Middle East country where the Christian population has grown in the last half century, from 34,000 to 158,000, in large measure, according to many observers, because of the religious freedoms enjoyed there.
As a Jew, I'm proud of the status of religious minorities in the Jewish state.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/on-faith/wp/2013/10/24/anti-christian-terror-is-everyones-concern/

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket noting
Date: 07 Nov 13 - 10:05 AM

That's the problem with religion. Bush was seen as a Christian and so was Blair. Therefore so were all British and all American endeavour.

Perpetuating the idea of being associated by an imaginary friend few have in the first place isn't good.

In fact, to many around the planet, the likes of me would be classed as Christian in the same way as you talk about Muslims coming over here in some of your distasteful comments on various threads you so insist I read.

I like how your stereotyping was cut down to size by the post someone wrote referring to the Christian paedophile Jimmy Saville.

Quite.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Nov 13 - 10:28 AM

you talk about Muslims coming over here in some of your distasteful comments

Except I do not.
It only arose here to shoot down Don's false claim of Muslims suffering persecution in UK.

Persecution leads to a fall in numbers, not a rise.
Persecution leads to an exodus, not an influx.

Once again you resort to smear tactics.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Nov 13 - 10:40 AM

No Kevin, what I posted directly refutes the claim that there is more persecution of Christians than of Muslims.

But it just didn't Don. It reminded us that there some terrible wars going on, with appalling consequences. That's not in itself about religious persecution, though of course there's no clear line to be drawn between these things. Wars are times when religious and ethnic differences are especially to turn bloody.

I'm still puzzled what this argument is about. There's a lot of persecution around, much of it is religious persecution, much of that is against Christians, much of it is against adherents of other religions, and it is all terrible. Everyone agrees with that (leaving aside the odd joker who says it's all right to persecute some religions, or the people who actually believe that.   And when we talk about one thing it doesn't mean all the other things we could talk about don't matter.
................

Why is it any more distasteful to talk about Muslims coming here than it would be to talk about Catholics coming here from Poland? And very welcome both lots of newcomers are so far as I am concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket shaking his head slowly
Date: 07 Nov 13 - 11:32 AM

Dunno. Ask Keith. He's the one making the distinction.

And on this thread for that matter .

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Nov 13 - 12:56 PM

What distinction do you mean? And when?

The distinction between people a country where people from a religious minority come to live and work, and a country where people from a religious minority are forced into exile?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Nov 13 - 02:30 PM

Ask Keith. He's the one making the distinction.
Just a smear.
Made up shit.
Why do you need to keep doing it Musket?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Muskets made up shit
Date: 08 Nov 13 - 01:13 PM

Are you ready?


Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Oct 13 - 08:26 AM

You have yet to attach one modicum of blame to the religious bodies who carrird out these abuses

Yes I have, but on relevant threads not this one about religious persecution.

Don, the persecuted Christian communities are dwindling to extinction as they are killed or driven out.
Unlike our thriving Muslim community that expanding rapidly and which welcomes a large inflow from their homelands every day.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Nov 13 - 03:34 PM

So Keith pointed out that thereare many Muslims who see this country as a good lace to live. That is self evidently true.

That is true, and it says something very positive about this country.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Nov 13 - 05:10 PM

If Don had claimed Poles were being persecuted, I would have made the same statement about them.

The statement was made in refutation of Don's claim, which was that Muslims suffered persecution in Britain that was comparable to Christian persecution elsewhere.

You know all this.
You are just trying to smear me.
Despicable.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Nov 13 - 07:21 PM

""That's not in itself about religious persecution, though of course there's no clear line to be drawn between these things.""

OK Kevin, one last try!

Is there anything other than the claims of organisations with a built in Christian bias, to prove that Christians are being persecuted because they are Christian, rather than because they are a minority and different than the majority?

If there is unbiased and factual evidence, has the same criterion been applied to minority sunni and shiite communities. I tend to doubt it.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Nov 13 - 08:05 PM

As I have said several times when religious communities, including Christian communities, are persecuted that is indeed liable to be because they are seen as different, not because of theological niceties.

But if they abandon their religion in many, arguably most cases, that difference would cease to exist and they would cease to be persecuted. There have been exceptions to that, as when Jews who had become Christians were still sent to the death camps, but in most cases of such persecution religion is the only identifiable difference involved.

That is one way in which religious persecution differs from the persecution and ill treatment of other kinds. Black people cannot turn white, women cannot change sex. But people can change religions, go to church or go to mosque. And of course, sometimes they do.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Nov 13 - 02:18 AM

Don, the evidence you demand is in the many links I have provided.
That is why I provided them.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 09 Nov 13 - 02:30 AM

Yes Kevin. He could have said ice cream tastes nice too. But he didn't. He pointed out that Christians flee persecution whilst Muslims are economic migrants, unless he wants to give a different spin on his point?

A grovelling apology from the general area of Harlow would be nice too. Whilst finding his ill conceived post, I noted that he accused me of having no humility. Let's see if the kettle can call the saucepan black.

On your last point, I doubt wholesale persecution was ever based on the characteristics of your particular imaginary friend. It has always been on more economic and political reasoning. Religion has always been the distasteful way of finding justification for the atrocities. After all, better in the name of God than in the name of the people doing well out of it.

The ignorant peasants are more liable to do your dirty work for you too. The poor buggers who actually believe the err...    "made up shit" anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket grovelling
Date: 09 Nov 13 - 03:00 AM

Hertford, not Harlow.

Humble apologies with humility.

Both down south somewhere....

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Nov 13 - 04:24 AM

Musket,
It was Don you raised the issue of British Muslims.
Not me.
Deny that?

He claimed that Muslims are persecuted here, comparable to Christian persecution elsewhere.
Deny that?

I just refuted that claim.
That does not make me anti-Muslim as you suggest.

As Kevin said, he might have claimed that our Polish Catholics are persecuted.
My response would be the same.

Persecution does not give rise to a thriving and naturally growing community.
Persecution results in an exodus not an influx.

There is no anti Muslim sentiment in my posts because I am not anti Muslim.
That is just shit made up by you Musket.
Groundless personal attack instead of reasoned debate.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket being patriotic
Date: 09 Nov 13 - 09:58 AM

Of course. We could either read your protestations or we could read something that Keith A of Hertford put and I just reprinted.

So your trick of side tracking people and demanding they deny something they probablybnever asserted in the first place is rather pathetic. Ask Don if he wishes to deny what Don said.

Perhaps in the meantime you may wish to deny or indeed confirm what you meant when you compared dwindling to extinction Christians with Muslims "coming over here, ,welcoming from their homelands. "

Funny. A colleague was hounded out of Iraq a good few years ago and he managed to flee with his family. He was welcomed by fellow Iraqis in the city. He happens to be a Christian. The Sunni Muslim charitable foundation that helped him set up and establish over here didn't see the point in distinction where persecution was involved. Not going into detail as knowledge of me can narrow things down somewhat but don't panic, no need to get Daily M*il links to such antics. He pays more in tax and saves more lives each and every month than your average reader could dream of.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Nov 13 - 11:22 AM

As I read it the contrast that Keith was drawing was not between what happens to Muslims and what happens to Christians, but between the situation in a country where a religious minority is coming as immigrants and one where they are fleeing as refugees.

It appears that Musket has read this as a bizarre suggestion that Muslims as Muslims are not subject to religious persecution, but that Christians are. That would be a ridiculous thing to say, and Keith has not said it. In fact he has specifically mentioned at least one current example where a Muslim religious minority is indeed being persecuted, in Burma.

r we could read something that Keith A of Hertford put and I just reprinted. Which Musket implies demonstrated his racist/sectarian credentials. But it didn't do anything of the sort.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,keith A
Date: 09 Nov 13 - 12:12 PM

We could either read your protestations or we could read something that Keith A of Hertford put and I just reprinted.

There is no contradiction.
What I put and you reprinted was just a refutation of Don's assertion that there is a persecution of Muslims here that is comparable to religious persecution elsewhere.

You resorting to using that shows how desperate you have become to find anything against me for your smears.

Why can you not discuss the issues and not me?
Even if I WAS some kind of monster, you should still be able to challenge what I say instead of my motive for saying it.
Why don't you?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 09 Nov 13 - 12:26 PM

Shame on you.

I am not saying that at all. I suspect you know that.

Keith spoke of Christian persecution then in the same paragraph spoke of Muslims being welcomed into our country. You may interpret that as one thing but with his track record, I, I suspect accurately, interpret it in a far less positive light.

A debate on the subject of persecution is valid. Pointing out persecution of communities and individuals based on their weekly worship, if they personally bother, is never going to get anywhere. It is, as many have pointed out, including some of the articles he refers to, a statistical fact that those identified as Christians in countries dominated by other faiths will make up a majority of instances of persecution of minorities at any time. I offered a further thought that people who look to the religion of people as a way of judging them will identify Christians with American and European led bombing of Muslim majority land. This plays into the hands of those who seek to use their faith to further more temporal causes.

In fact, for all you just put, you will find if you bother to read, that I acknowledge the seeming widespread persecution of communities identified as Christian. I just don't fall into the trap of calling it Christian persecution thats all.

That would imply such atrocities were because of their faith. Which it isn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Nov 13 - 01:22 PM

Being persecuted because of your faith can mean being pesecuted specifically on behalf of your beliefs. That does of course happen. "Kill the blasphemer!"

Equally it can happen because as an adherent of a religion you are identified as one of a suspect minority. As Musket says this can be acerbated because of the actions of people seen as your co-religionists - for example Americans with drones, Muslims or Irish Catholics with bombs.

In both cases it is likely to be the case that if you abandon your religious beliefs and your religious practice, you will no longer be a target of persecution, unless this is seen as not genuine.

That is why calling it religious persecution is perfectly appropriate. That is the third or fourth time I have explained this elementary truth, Musket, but you seem unable to grasp it. I rather suspect this may well continue to be the case.

As for Musket's interpretation of what Keith intended in that comment about the contrast between immigrating and being exiled, and its relation in both cases to the presence of persecution,, I note that Keith has several times explained what he said there, and it coincides with what appears to me to be the obvious meaning.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,keith A
Date: 09 Nov 13 - 04:08 PM

Yes.
Thank you Kevin.


Keith spoke of Christian persecution then in the same paragraph spoke of Muslims being welcomed into our country.

That is because the whole paragraph was in response to, and rebuttal of, Dons claim about Muslims suffering persecution here like Christians elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 Nov 13 - 06:06 PM

I rather think Kevin, that the Muslim families who have suffered abuse and assault, and also those who have had dogshit and blazing petrol posted through their letterboxes, would feel persecuted

There are large numbers of British Muslims, who have been maltreated in every way mentioned in the stages of that concise definition of "persecution" which was posted in this thread, "up to and including death".

Mosques have been bombed and defaced.

Many of course have not fled the country, being British and having been born here. Others stay because they haven't the means to leave.

That must mean, according to some, that they are not persecuted.

Just as Gazans are not persecuted, since they are still breeding.

Ignoring, of course, the inconvenient fact that, with their infrastructure, economy and freedom of movement destroyed, they have fuck all else to do!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Nov 13 - 06:59 PM

Persecution is a strong word. Of course it is horrible when that kind of hostility is shown towards Muslims, or against anybody. but to call it systematic persecution comparable to what happens to some religious minorities in some places and at some times is to distort the situation.

Persecution isn't the only way in which people are treated terribly. The Palestinians driven from their homes in 1948 were persecuted in order to make them flee. Palestinians in exile have suffered from the consequences of that persecution. Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza suffer from oppression, both from Israel and in some cases from fellow Palestinians reacting to that oppression. But that surely is another thread.

People with disabilities are often shamefully treated, neglected and harassed, sometimes to the degree of death. But it would be wrong to use the term persecution in a group sense.

It might indeed be appropriate to use the word persecuted of an individual, just as it can be, for example when talking of an individual bullied at work, but that is a different use of the word from when we are talking about pogroms.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,keith
Date: 10 Nov 13 - 02:17 AM

The person who bombed the mosques was caught.
He had also killed an elderly man walking home from a mosque.
The perpetrator had come to Britain from abroad specifically to attack our non-white people, and began within days of arriving.
An aberration.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 10 Nov 13 - 02:54 AM

I have thought about Kevin's interpretation of my interpretation. ....

I have no reason whatsoever to single out Keith for criticism. I do single out however the broad thrust of his argument. That I pounce on instances of his agenda is neither here nor there. I do not wish to change views, merely to challenge what I see as agenda ridden points masquerading as innocent observation.

Keith and I have agreed on points in this and many threads. It is he who now reckons I am somehow trying to "persecute" him for challenging the emphasis on Christian in the same breathe as persecution.

Yes. The brainwashed peasants carrying out the persecution itself may well see religion as a factor, but from their perspective that may be noble. (Knights and Crusades spring to mind every bit as much as suicide bombers) yet the real perpetrators, those urging the pogroms and carnage. ... They use religion as a means not an end.

As I said. I remain convinced the word different is the key not the word Christian. My attempts to merely state that opinion seem to result in Keith spewing out more and more instances of persecution of those culturally recognisable as Christians. I doubt he is thick as pigshit really so his technique for debate leads to questioning his motives. The opportunity to reread his posts, as I have had to in order to keep him happy just reinforces my opinion of his position.

As many have pointed out. Not just me.

I note the apology was well hidden Keith. Although had you the humility to do so it would have probably been, in your words, made up shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,keith.
Date: 10 Nov 13 - 01:00 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,keith.
Date: 10 Nov 13 - 01:14 PM


I have no reason whatsoever to single out Keith for criticism. I do single out however the broad thrust of his argument.

No Musket, that is how it should have gone.
I say that Christians are bearing the brunt of persecution.
You and others saying yes it is terrible but you are not convinced their suffering is the worst, or that religion is the issue.
Me saying I am convinced but thanks for your contribution.

What I got was the same old accusations first from Jim and then from you.
I must have an agenda.
I must be a bad person.

" That I pounce on instances of his agenda is neither here nor there. I do not wish to change views, merely to challenge what I see as agenda ridden points masquerading as innocent observation."

I have no agenda.
You have produced no "instances."
There is no "masquerading" except in your prejudiced imagination.

Please remind me what I should apologise for.
Do you still claim I spoke of UKIP as we, and when are you going to produce it?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 10 Nov 13 - 01:16 PM

If guest Keith is the usual suspect Keith then sticking to empty posts such as above might be a good idea credibility wise.

However if the mudelves remove it, it might be a good idea to remove this too. ...

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Nov 13 - 01:47 PM

IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT

Programme Change ~~

For reasons beyond the management's control, the long-running KEITH'N'CARROLL SHOW has, at least for the moment, been replaced by the KEITH'N'MUSKET SHOW.

We appreciate that this is somewhat less satisfactory, alliteration-wise, though the repeated voiceless velar plosive K may be regarded by some of our regular audience as reasonably compensatory.

But we are confident that, on present showing, this too

WILL RUN & RUN!

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,keith
Date: 10 Nov 13 - 02:26 PM

Oh dear.
If Musket and Jim would just discuss the issues and not insist on discussing me all the time, endlessly, this would not happen.

You are entitled to your opinions of me, wrong as they are, but why must you always interrupt debate to pontificate about what a bad person you imagine I am.

My fault is that I can not let false accusations go unchallenged.
They can never substantiate, only repeat, and so it goes endlessly on.

Even if I was a bad person, you could still just challenge what I say.
Perhaps the problem is that you can't challenge what I say.

Making up shit about someone is easy.
Formulating counter arguments is perhaps too hard for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Nov 13 - 03:39 PM

When you've made a mistake the honourable thing is to admit it, correct it, and say sorry if that's involved an unfair accusation, not rationalise it and continue to imply that after all it wasn't a mistake.

It's going round in circles, and has been for a long time. Keep on enjoying your fun, Musket. You clearly aren't interested in any genuine discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 10 Nov 13 - 05:20 PM

I'm not interested in genuine discussion? Obviously not then.

After all, question people who use their faith as part of their argument and you may as well give up.

Apparently more men are persecuted than women.   More intellectual people are persecuted than ignorant peasants. More ignorant peasants are religious than intellectual people.






Whoops. ..

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 10 Nov 13 - 05:55 PM

That was a low blow.

I've not seen any member QUOTE' "using" their faith as a part of their argument here, least of all McGrath who you seem to be levelling this cheap sideswipe at.

And even were they to do so, the religious are as entitled to wave their pompous superiourity about as much as the atheists, surely?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 10 Nov 13 - 05:58 PM

Or superiority.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 02:50 AM

people who use their faith as part of their argument

Another bit of M.U.S. from the aptly named MUSket.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 05:39 AM

Well done Keith. Musket includes MUS which for the benefit of those with a life and haven't read your bollocks recently, stands for made up shit.

Guest CS. Kevin hasn't used faith but he seems to defend to the death the right of those who are. It is his partisan defence of a polarised view that is not his usual style, but seems to be thriving on this thread. Sad really, as it must encourages shallow fools to plough on.



Anyway, let's find an anagram for Keith A of Hertford shall we?

Sanctimonious hypocrite.
Member of looney fringe organisation
Starter of inflammatory posts.
Denier of his inflammatory posts.
"As a Christian" quoter.



Oh, did I mention? I'm not very good at anagrams.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 07:13 AM

Guest CS. Kevin hasn't used faith but he seems to defend to the death the right of those who are.

As CS said, no-one has used their faith as an argument here.
M.U.S.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket smiling
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 07:43 AM

I love how you are beginning to sign off with MUS.

Your new signature is refreshingly honest.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 07:52 AM

I asked for that.
Good one Musket.

Now, why don't you produce an example of someone using their faith as an argument, or do you admit it is MUS?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket the detective
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 08:44 AM

Bloody hell Keith. It took me all of five minutes of scanning your contributions to just this thread just for last month. I saw, and speed reading may have missed some too, seven instances where you said you were a Christian. What is the relevance of that?

I have never once on this thread mentioned I am an ex member of The Bolsover Beer Drinking and Picked Egg Munching Thursday Night Club. (No constitution, but we did for a while exist in principle.)

If the thread is what you said it was to be, the two claims would be as relevant as each other, as nobody, yourself included, has singled out Christians as a persecuted minority here in The UK. Only retired Archbishops are ga ga enough to make that claim.



But I could be wrong.....

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 08:49 AM

Give us some examples then Musket.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket giving you a chance
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 10:11 AM

Surely, if you cut and paste them, you can come up with the explanations before I put my own interpretation on them? They take 5 mins for anyone to find and read. Just scroll up, starting early October. Some before then too...

I've just said they are there. I have previously put my take on why your motives are suspect. That is what these debates are for. Someone says something, others say what they think of what was said.

No further input required. Either accept what you put or dig yourself out of a hole without help. When anyone posts something, you pick up on a word, throw it out of context then try and look hurt.

Getting rather tedious to be honest.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 10:21 AM

Someone says something, others say what they think of what was said.
YES!!
Not claim knowledge of my motive for saying it, which you can not know but I do.

seven instances where you said you were a Christian. What is the relevance of that?

OK.
If true produce an example where I say that without relevance.
Just one or all seven.
Good luck.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 10:24 AM

When anyone posts something, you pick up on a word, throw it out of context then try and look hurt.

No.
I do not.
You will not produce an example of that either.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Stringsinger
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 01:09 PM

Palestinian persecution

Palestinians are being marginalized today and an attempt at creating second class citizens
in Israel is being done by the government of Israel today.

Once again, religion is creating war.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: bobad
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 01:19 PM

TIMELINE OF JEWISH PERSECUTIONS                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                        
        Date         Place         Event         
        580 B.C.         Babylon/Judea         Nebuchadnezzar conquers Judea, burns Temple         
        38 B.C.         Alexandria, Egypt         Mob Attacks         
        3 B.C.         Egypt         Expulsion         
        66 C.E.         Alexandria, Egypt         Mob Attacks         
        70 C.E.         Jerusalem         Expulsion following revolt         
        250 C.E.         Carthage         Expulsion                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        224 C.E.         Italy         Forced Conversion                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        325 C.E.         Jerusalem         Expulsion renewed by Constantine                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        351 C.E         Persia         Book Burning                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        357 C.E.         Italy         Property Confiscation                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        379 C.E.         Milan         Synagogue Burning                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        415 C.E.         Alexandria         Expulsion                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        418 C.E.         Minorca         Forced Conversion                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        468 C.E.         Babylon/Judea         Expulsion                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        469 C.E.         Ipahan         Holocaust                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        470 C.E.         Babylon/Judea         Expulsion                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        489 C.E.         Antioch         Synagogue Burning                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        506 C.E.         Daphne         Synagogue Burning         
        519 C.E.         Ravenna         Synagogue Burning                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        554 C.E.         Diocese of Clement (France)         Expulsion                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        561 C.E.         Diocese of Uzes (France)         Expulsion or Conversion                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        582 C.E         Merovingia         Forced Conversion                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        612 C.E.         Visigoth Spain         Expulsion                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        624 C.E.         Hejaz         Expulsion                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        628 C.E.         Byzantium         Forced Conversion                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        629 C.E.         Merovingia         Forced Conversion                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        633 C.E.         Toledo         Forced Conversion                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        638 C.E.         Toledo         Stake Burnings                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        642 C.E.         Visigothic Empire         Expulsion                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        653 C.E.         Toledo         Expulsion                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        681 C.E.         Spain         Forced Conversion                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        693 C.E.         Toledo         Jews Enslaved                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        722 C.E.         Byzantium         Judaism Outlawed                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        855 C.E.         Italy         Expulsion                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        876 C.E.         Sens         Expulsion                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        897 C.E.         Narbonne         Land Confiscation                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        945 C.E.         Venice         Ban on Sea Travel                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1009 C.E.         Orleans         Massacre                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1012 C.E.         Rouen, Limoges & Rome         Massacre                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1012 C.E.         Mayence, Germany         Expulsion                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1021 C.E.         Rome         Jews Burned Alive                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1063 C.E.         Spain         Massacre                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1095 C.E.         Lorraine    &nbs

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: bobad
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 01:22 PM

Cont'd

        1096 C.E.         Northern France & Germany         1/3 of Jewish Population Massacred as part of the First Crusade                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1096 C.E.         Hungary         Massacre                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1096 C.E.         Ralisbon         Massacre                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1099 C.E.         Jerusalem         Jews Burned Alive                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1100 C.E.         Kiev         Pogrom                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1140 C.E.         Germany         Massacres                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1142-1212 C.E.         North Africa         Massacres                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1146 C.E.         Rhine Valley         Massacre as part of the Second Crusade                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1147 C.E.         Wurzburg         Massacre                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1147 C.E.         Belitz (Germany)         Jews Burned Alive                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1147 C.E.         Carenton, Ramenu & Sully (France)         Massacres                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1171 C.E.         Blois         Stake Burnings                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1181 C.E.         France         Expulsion/Property Confiscation                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1181 C.E.         England         Property Confiscation                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1188 C.E.         London & York         Mob Attacks                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1189 C.E.         England         Mob Attacks against Jews following coronation of Richard the Lionheart/ Property Confiscation.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1190 C.E.         Norfolk         Jews Burned Alive                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1191 C.E.         Bray (France)         Jews Burned Alive                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1195 C.E.         France         Property Confiscation                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1209 C.E.         Beziers         Massacre                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1215 C.E.         Rome         Jews Forced to Wear Badges                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1215 C.E.         Toulouse (France)         Mass Arrests                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1218 C.E.         England         Jews Forced to Wear Badges                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1231 C.E.         Rome         Inquisition Established                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1236 C.E.         France         Forced Conversion/Massacre                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1239 C.E.         London         Massacre & Property Confiscation                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1240 C.E.         France         Talmud Confiscated                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1240 C.E.         England         Book Burning                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1240 C.E.         Spain         Forced Conversion                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1242 C.E.         Paris         Talmud Burned                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1244 C.E.         Oxford         Mob Attacks                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1255 C.E.         England         Public Hangings                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1261 C.E.         Canterbury         Mob Attacks                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1262 C.E.         London         Mob Attacks                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1264 C.E.         London         Mob Attacks                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1267 C.E.         Vienna         Jews Forced to Wear Horned Hats                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1270 C.E.         Weissenberg, Magdeburg, Armstadt, Coblenz, Singzig, and Erfurt         Jews Burned Alive                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1278 C.E.         Genoa (Spain)         Mob Attacks                                                                                                                                                                                                                            &

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: bobad
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 01:24 PM

cont'd

1285 C.E.         Munich         Jews Burned Alive                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1290 C.E.         England         Expulsion                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1298 C.E.         Franconia, Bavaria & Austria         100,000 Jews slaughtered underr command of German knight Rindfleisch                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1306 C.E.         France         Expulsion by Philip the Fair (Same King who burned the Templars)                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1308 C.E.         Strasbourg         Jews Burned Alive                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1320 C.E.         Toulouse & Perpigon         120 Communities Massacred & Talmud Burned                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1321 C.E.         Teruel         Public Executions                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1328 C.E.         Estella         5,000 Jews Slaughtered                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1348 C.E.         France & Spain         Jews Burned Alive                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1348 C.E.         Switzerland         Expulsion                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1349 C.E.         Worms, Strasbourg, Oppenheim,         Jews Burned Alive                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1349 C.E.         Heilbronn (Germany)         Expulsion                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1349 C.E.         Hungary         Expulsion                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1349 C.E.         Saxony         Expulsion                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1354 C.E.         Castile (Spain)         12,000 Jews Slaughtered                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1360 C.E.         Hungary         Banned                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1368 C.E.         Toledo         8,000 Jews Slaughtered                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1370 C.E.           Belgium         Expulsion                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1370 C.E.           Majorca., Penignon & Barcelona         Mob Attack                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1377 C.E.         Huesca (Spain)         Jews Burned Alive                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1380 C.E.         Paris         Mob Attack                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1384 C.E.         Nordlingen         Mass Murder                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1388 C.E.         Strasbourg         Expulsion                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1389 C.E.         Prague         Mass Slaughter & Book Burning                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1391 C.E.         Castille, Toledo, Madrid, Seville,         Forced Conversions & Mass Murder                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1394 C.E.         Germany         Expulsion                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1394 C.E.         France         Expulsion                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1399 C.E.         Posen (Poland)         Jews Burned Alive                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1400 C.E.         Prague         Stake Burnings                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1407 C.E.         Cracow         Mob Attack                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1415 C.E.         Rome         Talmud Confiscated                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1420 C.E.         Austria         Expelled by Albrecht V                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1422 C.E.         Austria         Jews Burned Alive                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1422 C.E.         Austria         Expulsion                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1424 C.E.         Fribourg & Zurich         Expulsion                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1426 C.E.         Cologne         Expulsion                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1431 C.E.         Southern Germany         Jews Burned Alive                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1432 C.E.         Savory         Expulsion                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: bobad
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 01:25 PM

1439 C.E.         Augsburg         Expulsion                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1444 C.E.         Netherlands         Expulsion                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1449 C.E.         Toledo         Public Torture &. Burnings                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1453 C.E.         Franconia         Expulsion                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1453 C.E.         Breslau         Expulsion                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1453 C.E.         Poland         Citzenship revoked                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1454 C.E.         Wurzburg         Expulsion                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1456 C.E.         Bavaria         Expulsion                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1463 C.E.         Cracow         Mob Attack                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1473 C.E.         Andalusia         Mob Attack                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1480 C.E.         Venice         Jews Burned Alive                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1481 C.E.         Seville         Stake Burnings                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1484 C.E.         Cuidad Real, Guadalupe, Sarago         Jews Burned Alive                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1485 C.E.         Vincenza (Italy)         Expulsion                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1486 C.E.         Toledo         Jews Burned Alive                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1488 C.E.         Toledo         Stake Burnings                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1490 C.E.         Toledo         Public Executions                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1491 C.E.         Astorga         Public Torture & Execution                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1492 C.E.         Sicily         Expulsion                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1492 C.E.         Spain         Choice between Expulsion or Conversion (When the Rivero family became Catholic)                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1495 C.E.         Lithuania         Expulsion by Grand Duke Alexander                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1497 C.E.         Portugal         Expulsion                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1499 C.E.         Germany         Expulsion                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1506 C.E.         Lisbon         Mob Attack                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1510 C.E.         Berlin         Public Torture & Execution                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1510 C.E.         Brandenberg         Expulsion                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1510 C.E.         Prussia         Expulsion                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1514 C.E.         Strasbourg         Expulsion                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1519 C.E.         Regensburg         Expulsion                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1539 C.E.         Cracow & Portugal         Stake Burnings                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1540 C.E.         Naples and Sardinia         Expulsion                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1542 C.E.         Bohemia         Expulsion                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1550 C.E.         Genoa and Venice         Expulsion         
        1551 C.E.         Bavaria         Expulsion                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1553 C.E.         Rome         Talmud burned                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1555 C.E.         Pesaro         Expulsion         
        1556 C.E.         Sokhachev (Poland)         Public Torture & Execution                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1559 C.E.         Austria         Expulsion         
        1561 C.E.         Prague         Expulsion                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1567 C.E.         Wurzburg         Expulsion         
        1569 C.E.         Italy and Papal States         Expulsion                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1571 C.E.         Brandenburg         Expulsion         
        1582 C.E.         Hungary         Banned a second time                                                                 &nbs

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: bobad
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 01:28 PM

cont'd

        1582 C.E.         Netherlands         Expulsion                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1593 C.E.         Brunswick         Expulsion         
        1593 C.E.         Brandenburg, Austria         Expulsion         
        1593 C.E.         Italy         Banned a second time         
        1597 C.E.         Cremona, Pavia & Lodi         Expulsion                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1614 C.E.         Frankfort         Expulsion         
        1615 C.E.         Worms         Expulsion                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1619 C.E.         Kiev         Expulsion         
        1635 C.E.         Vilna         Mob Attack                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1637 C.E.         Cracow         Public Torture & Execution         
        1647 C.E.         Lisbon         Jews Burned Alive                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1648 C.E.         Poland         1/3 of Jewry Slaughtered         
        1649 C.E.         Ukraine         Expulsion                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1649 C.E.         Hamburg         Expulsion         
        1652 C.E.         Lisbon         Stake Burnings                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1654 C.E.         New Amsterdam         Expulled by Peter Stuyvesant (order later retracted)         
        1654 C.E.         Little Russia         Expulsion         
        1656 C.E.         Lithuania         Expulsion                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1660 C.E.         Seville         Jews Burned Alive         
        1663 C.E         Cracow         Public Torture &. Execution                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1664 C.E.         Lemberg         Mob Attack         
        1669 C.E.         Oran (North Africa)         Expulsion                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1670 C.E.         Vienna         Expulsion         
        1671 C.E.         Minsk         Mob Attacks                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1681 C.E.         Vilna         Mob Attacks         
        1682 C.E.         Marseilles         Expulsion                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1682 C.E.         Cracow         Mob Attacks                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1687 C.E.         Posen         Mob Attacks         
        1712 C.E.         Sandomir         Expulsion                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1727 C.E.         Russia         Expulsion         
        1738 C.E.         Wurtemburg         Expulsion                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1740 C.E.         Liule Russia         Expulsion         
        1744 C.E         Hungary         Banned for the third time by Queen Maria Theresa. "Henceforth, no Jew, no matter under what name, will be allowed to remain here without my written permission. I know of no other troublesome pest within the state than this race, which impoverishes the people by their fraud, usury and money-lending and commits all deeds which an honorable man despises. Subsequently, they have to be removed and excluded from here as much as possible."
        1744 C.E.         Livonia         Expulsion         
        1745 C.E.         Moravia         Expulsion by order of the King (to halt mob attacks on Jews)                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1753 C.E.         Kovad (Lithuania)         Expulsion         
        1757 C.E.         Kamenetz         Talmud Burning                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1761 C.E.         Bordeaux         Expulsion         
        1768 C.E.         Kiev         3,000 Jews Slaughtered                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1772 C.E.         Russia         Expulsion to the Pale of Settlement         
        1775 C.E.         Warsaw         Expulsion                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1789 C.E.         Alsace         Expulsion         
        1790 C.E.         Morocco         Expulsion, villages destroyed         
        1801 C.E.         Bucharest         Mob Attack                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1804 C.E.         Russian Villages         Expulsion         
        1808 C.E.         Russian Countryside         Expulsion                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1814 C.E.         Norway         Rescinds ban on Jews         
        1815 C.E.         Lubeck & Bremen         Expulsion         
        1815 C.E.         Franconia, Swabia & Bavaria         Expulsion         
        1820 C.E.         Bremes         Expulsion                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1843 C.E.         Austria & Prussia         Expulsion         
        1850 C.E.         New York City         500 People, Led by Police, Attacked &. Wrecked, Jewish Synagogue                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1862 C.E.         United States         Expelled by Ulysses S. Grant (order later retracted)         
        1866 C.E         Galatz (Romania)         Expulsion                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1871 C.E.         Odena         Mob Attack         
        1882 C.E.         Russia         Laws banishing Jews relaxed under Alexander II. Following his assassination by a Jewish plot, expulsion of 1772 restored.         
        1887 C.E.         Slovakia         Mob Attacks                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1897 C.E.         Kantakuzenka (Russia)         Mob Attacks         
        1898 C.E.         Rennes (France)         Mob Attack                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1899 C.E.         Nicholayev         Mob Attack         
        1900 C.E.         Konitz (Prussia)         Mob Attack                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1902 C.E.         Poland         Widespread Pogroms         
        1904 C.E.         Manchuria, Kiev & Volhynia         Widespread Pogroms                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1905 C.E.         Zhitomir (Yolhynia)         Mob Attacks         
        1919 C.E         Bavaria         Expulsion                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1915 C.E.         Georgia (U.S.A.)         Leo Frank Lynched                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1919 C.E.         Mongolia         Pogrom                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1919 C.E.         Prague         Wide Spread Pogroms                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1920 C.E.         Munich & Breslau         Mob Attacks                                                                                                                                                                  

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: bobad
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 01:29 PM

cont'd

        1926 C.E.         Uzbekistan         Pogrom                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1928 C.E.         Hungary         Widespread Anti-Semitic Riots on University Campuses         
        1929 C.E.         Lemberg (Poland)         Mob Attacks                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1930 C.E.         Berlin         Mob Attack         
        1933 C.E.         Bucharest         Mob Attacks                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1933 C.E.         Europe         Immigrant Jews banned from citizenship.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1935 C.E.         Germany         Loss of citizenship, inprisonment in slave labor camps.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1948 C.E.         Libya         Pogrom                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
        1969 C.E.         Iraq         Executions

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket friendly advice
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 02:10 PM

Shhh... Bobad. Don't tell Keith, he gets all kind of funny if it doesn't show Christians as martyrs.

Then you end up in a game with him.

He challenges you to find something he subsequently denies. You find it. He challenges you to find it "in context" You get tired of his little games.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 02:38 PM

A BooBadian Bout of Postarrhoea worthy of our old horseshitter himself, Bullshit Bruce.

Congratulations.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 03:48 PM

He challenges you to find something he subsequently denies. You find it. He challenges you to find it "in context"
MUS.

Don't tell Keith, he gets all kind of funny if it doesn't show Christians as martyrs.
MUS.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 12 Nov 13 - 02:31 AM

You forgot the bit about becoming tired of your little games.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Elmore
Date: 12 Nov 13 - 07:57 PM

Christian Persecution: You live in an area where there are 27 Baptist churches, (plus another 25 Christian churches of various denominations), and 3 restaurants with a liquor licence. So, you order a Jameson's on the rocks and they give you a glass of water with a splash of whiskey.(To save your soul?) For that they charge you 9 dollars. That's what I call Christian persecution.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Elmore
Date: 13 Nov 13 - 08:06 PM

Sarah Palin takes a whack at Pope Frank, and, by association millions of Catholics around the world, for being too liberal. Another example of Christian Persecution. The Evangelicals don't consider Roman Catholics to be real Christians.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket getting his tuppence worth
Date: 14 Nov 13 - 03:25 AM

Aye and on this side of the pond. .. You would normally describe the Anglican Church of England as half hearted, believing in tradition more than God.

However. .

An ex Archbishop of Canterbury, using the media influence his old job gets him, gave a speech in The House of Lords (yeah, we still allow them to influence laws that affect everyone) where he bemoaned the fact that they are increasingly becoming irrelevant, said it was sad that the deputy Prime Minister and Leader of the Opposition were irreligious atheists and called this state of affairs "Persecution. " He said in an interview later that laws should be strengthened to allow his mates in the upper house to "weild more influence and have the veto on moral matters. "

(BBC Newsnight if Her Majesties Inspector of Mudcat.org sources wishes to deny it as usual. )

I discussed this with a CofE vicar who carries out pastoral chaplaincy where I work and he reckons that this, the laity vote to remain bigoted with regard to female bishops and the assertiveness of evangelical politicians is a huge block to progress if they wish, and he sincerely does, to remain relevant and offer something to society at large.

He reminded me it is possible to have religion without belief and belief without religion.

Try telling that to the sanctimonious sods scattered around the largely empty pews.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Nov 13 - 03:33 AM

This thread is about the kind of persecution where people are killed, tortured, raped and forced to convert, churches and homes burned and communities driven to flee in despair and fear.
Thank you for seeking to broaden the debate, but I will not be joining in with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Nov 13 - 09:09 AM

He said in an interview later that laws should be strengthened to allow his mates in the upper house to "weild more influence and have the veto on moral matters. "

I get no hits for that quote, even with the spelling corrected.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 14 Nov 13 - 09:11 AM

This thread is called Christian persecution. An ex leader of the Anglican cult of the Christian faith described what he called Christian persecution.

Not sure I am widening any debate. Just demonstrating what I perceive as your motive in perpetuating a divisive, sectarian thread that slaps oppressed people squarely in the face by creating "some pigs are more equal than others " comparisons.

Tell you what, perhaps everybody should just agree with every utterance you make and then you might just fuck off and allow debate on important matters.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Nov 13 - 09:27 AM

An ex leader of the Anglican cult of the Christian faith described what he called Christian persecution.

Did he?
Unless we have the actual quote, how can anyone comment?

Is this it, from George Carey in the Daily Mail "At his (Cameron's) pre-Easter Downing Street reception for faith leaders, he said that he supported Christians' right to practise their faith. Yet many Christians doubt his sincerity. According to a new ComRes poll more than two-thirds of Christians feel that they are part of a 'persecuted minority'.

Their fears may be exaggerated because few in the UK are actually persecuted, but the Prime Minister has done more than any other recent political leader to feed these anxieties."

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 14 Nov 13 - 11:05 AM

Try Carey on Newsnight or Hansard.

I apologise profusely and humbly for the spelling mistake above. Mistakes were made and all that crap. I take full responsibility for the auto correct in the phone operating system but be buggered if I can find anywhere in either Android or specific Samsung settings how to elevate the command of English in the fucking thing or indeed my own ability to speed read when I only have five mins of entertaining distraction before plodding on with my miserable life.

I shall take a loaded gun to my study on my return home.

Thank Clapton that's the only thing I need to apologise for. You are the one needing to apologise for only believing it if they say it in The Daily M*il.

His dig at Cameron by the way was for seeing gay marriage as righting an ancient wrong and for saying that in the name of equality women should be eligible for senior management positions within their organisation.

Nasty little shit, isn't he?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Nov 13 - 11:28 AM

I was not criticising.
I make plenty of mistakes.
Just reassuring you I searched the right quote.
If it was in Hansard Google would have found it.
If it was said on Newsnight the media would have picked it up.

How about YOU find the quote you want me to respond to?

I do criticise you for posting something in quotes that is not a quote.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Nov 13 - 02:54 AM

TODAY

"Baroness Warsi: Extremists are driving Christians out of their homelands. We must act.
Terrorist violence against Christians has put the very survival of the religion in some regions in peril. We cannot stand idle, says Baroness Warsi."

" From continent to continent, Christians are facing discrimination, ostracism, torture, even murder, simply for the faith they follow. The pages of this newspaper regularly chart the plight of the persecuted, from the scores of worshippers killed recently by bombers at All Saints Church in Pakistan to the Coptic congregation sprayed with bullets by gunmen in Egypt.
Christian populations are plummeting and the religion is being driven out of some of its historic heartlands. There is even talk of Christianity becoming extinct in places where it has existed for generations – where the faith was born. In Iraq, the Christian community has fallen from 1.2 million in 1990 to 200,000 today. In Syria, the horrific bloodshed has masked the haemorrhaging of its Christian population."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10450615/Baroness-Warsi-Extremists-are-driving-Christians-out-of-their-homelands.-We-must-act..html

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 15 Nov 13 - 03:41 AM

Do you think Warsi is credible in terms of you quoting her because she is a Muslim or because she is a conservative?

She points out a particular problem. She acknowledges that Christians are the large minority and therefore target wherever civil conflict occurs.

She doesn't seem to be saying they are being persecuted for being Christian. Not even the token poster girl goes that far. .....

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Nov 13 - 04:09 AM

She doesn't seem to be saying they are being persecuted for being Christian.

" Christians are facing discrimination, ostracism, torture, even murder, simply for the faith they follow"

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Nov 13 - 04:32 AM


Do you think Warsi is credible in terms of you quoting her because she is a Muslim or because she is a conservative?

Er, because she is "a senior minister of state."

Do you suppose she has an anti-Muslim "agenda" Musket?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Nov 13 - 05:20 AM

Would this be an example to Christian persecution - fro today's Times?
Jim Carroll

JEWS ABUSED BY CATHOLIC EXTREMISTS
| Argentina
James Hider
A group of fundamentalist Catholics disrupted a Kristallnacht meeting in Buenos Aires and shouted abuse at Jewish worshippers in a protest seen as a direct challenge to Pope Francis.
Jews and Catholics had gathered in the Metropolitan Cathedral to mark the anniversary of the night when Nazis ransacked Jewish property across Germany in 1938.
The activists stormed in, shouting "the Jews killed Jesus". When Rabbi Abraham Skorka told them that his grandmother had died in Auschwitz, I   one said: "Do you believe that lie?"
The protesters were from the Society of Saint Pius X, whose leaders were ex¬communicated for forming a schisma¬tic society opposed to modernisation in the Church. Under the conservative Pope Benedict, the excommunications were reversed and attempts were made to reconcile the group, but it still has no legal standing in the Catholic Church.
Pope Francis has shown little interest in building bridges with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Nov 13 - 05:35 AM

no

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Nov 13 - 06:31 AM

Why not - it is a simple statement of fact of Christians persecutiong Jews erg - Christian Persecution - your title?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Nov 13 - 07:02 AM

You asked my opinion.
You got it.
I have been at meetings and demos where someone else has turned up and disrupted it or been abusive.
I bet you have too.
I did not feel persecuted.
Compare that to what Warsi was describing.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Nov 13 - 10:11 AM

In Keith's world, Jim, it is impossible for "Christians"[sic] to persecute anyone - they can only be the recipients.

Perhaps they're "chosen people".

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket gettin.. can't be arsed
Date: 15 Nov 13 - 01:43 PM

Keith reckons Christians are all being persecuted for the religion they follow.

Must be a fucking awful religion then. ...

Look. Nobody who is persecuting others gives a shit about whose imaginary friend or book of fables runs their lives. Many are classed as Christian in the same way as I would be by nutters who think that being English and assumingly indigenous makes me a Christian. The rabble carrying out the atrocities are programmed by religious leaders to believe all apostates must die. Those ordering the atrocities think it is kill them before they kill us and those in charge of the country enjoy the distraction of blaming someone other than them for the hunger and lack of jobs.

Being persecuted for the details of your particular delusion. How fucking arrogant is that? We will never get to the bottom of such issues whilst sectarian views like that are spouted out demanding respect.

I have none. I keep it all for football.

Religion itself, not particular delusions is used as a weapon for more secular causes. Prattling on about which part of religion suffers is like wondering which bean on your plate caused that fart. Many of the sufferers are rounded up by association not belief. Believe it or not, not everybody believes in fairy tales, not even in developing countries.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Nov 13 - 03:43 PM

Nobody who is persecuting others gives a shit about whose imaginary friend or book of fables runs their lives.

You are quite clearly and obviously wrong.
The persecutors single out their victims from the other groups who they choose not persecute.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Elmore
Date: 15 Nov 13 - 04:40 PM

Keith: You wrote "The persecute single out their victims from who they choose not persecute." Care to elucidate?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: bobad
Date: 15 Nov 13 - 04:58 PM

The Kenya mall massacre is one current example, there are countless others. You can find out about them if you care enough to look.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Nov 13 - 05:48 PM

Atta boy BooBad - shuck & jive.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Nov 13 - 06:26 PM

"The persecute single out their victims from who they choose not persecute." Care to elucidate?

That's every bit as clear and self-evident as all the rest of his pronouncements, Elmore.

What's your problem?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 16 Nov 13 - 02:09 AM

Victims in the Kenya shopping mall atrocity were singled out in the main for either looking Western or not knowing the name of the prophet's mother.

On that basis, I would have been targeted on both counts.

So would a few million other rational Westerners. In fact most Sikh, Hindu, Buddhist, Pastafarians (Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster) and antipastifarians (The reformed church of the flying spaghetti monster. ) We'd all be fucked.

I repeat. The foot soldiers are normally brainwashed into believing their own cult requires apostasy to be eradicated. They don't give a rats arse what it means to be a Christian. Those behind atrocities find them useful and convenient for more temporal reasons.

Keith has it in his head that Christianity is somehow special. The murderers and bombers think their cult is somehow special.

You start to see the problem with tolerating religion at all. ....

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Nov 13 - 02:36 AM

Keith: You wrote "The persecute single out their victims from who they choose not persecute." Care to elucidate?

No Elmore, I wrote "The persecutors single out their victims from the other groups who they choose not persecute."

They machine gun a church but not a temple or mosque.
It is deliberate.

As Warsi said, " Christians are facing discrimination, ostracism, torture, even murder, simply for the faith they follow"

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 16 Nov 13 - 03:52 AM

Who are they? Which church? Which mosques and temples are spared?

Easy this fact mill lark. ..

Warsi was sacked as Chairman of The Conservative Party for being a loose cannon who doesn't check facts.
That's a fact by the way.

In this, she is wrong to assert what cannot be asserted. Even if it were true, which would contradict many reports If it were, there is no way of knowing that.

Nobody cares about Jesus. They just see a convenient scape goat. (Jewish contraption apparently. )

I know your local vicar will waffle on about suffering for sins but that doesn't mean you have to bleat about persecution and try to link it with your belief. It only washes with other impressionable fools. Rational people dismiss it as an attempt at biblical prophesy.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Nov 13 - 04:14 AM

Even if it were true, which would contradict many reports If it were,

Made up shit again Musket.
Or are you going to produce some of those "many reports" ?

No.
You never do.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: bobad
Date: 16 Nov 13 - 08:03 AM

"It's not safe for Christians in this country," said Mano Rumalshah, the bishop emeritus of Peshawar, who was standing in the courtyard, comforting sobbing parishioners who clasped his white robes.

"Everyone is ignoring the growing danger to Christians in Muslim-majority countries. The European countries don't give a damn about us."

Others echoed the bishop's warning, saying that Christians would only be safe if they left Pakistan. But others vowed to remain and show they were not afraid."

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/23/pakistan-church-bombings-christian-minority

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket getting Pissed off now
Date: 16 Nov 13 - 08:28 AM

The issue isn't whether a predominance of Christians are being persecuted. The issue is saying it is because they are Christian whereas it is far more likely that it is because they are a large minority. Or different. Or linked to Western ideology. Or. ...

It certainly isn't because of their Bible, church or style of fairy stories.

Keith deluded himself into thinking it is. How arrogant to think one religion is superior to any other?

Warsi? Try looking her up. I wouldn't trust her to tell me where the nearest Post Office was were I in Dewsbury. ......

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Elmore
Date: 16 Nov 13 - 12:02 PM

O'Reilly and Palin are at it again, persecuting us heathens in the name of Christianity by exaggerating our feelings about, and actions against Christmas to sell their books. Doesn't sound very Christian to me, nor do some of the posts to this thread. Incidentally, why the ambiguous title to this thread? Could mean several things. I choose to take it to mean Persecution by Christians. God knows there's been plenty of that, and She's not happy about it. Perhaps I missed something. All these polysyllabic epistemological riffs are beyond my comprehension. Merry Christmas, Elmore

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Nov 13 - 01:36 PM

They ain't at it again, Elmore - the're STILL at it; the "Christian"[sic] fundagelical delusionalists have never ceased their persecutions.

And "Christians"[sic] have always been right at the top of the agents of persecution.

MARANATHA !!

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Nov 13 - 01:57 PM

Keith deluded himself into thinking it is. How arrogant to think one religion is superior to any other?

More made up shit about me.
Of course i think no such thing, but there is no question non-Christians are persecuting Christians, and they do it because they hate Christianity.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 16 Nov 13 - 03:03 PM

They'd certainly hate you, you thick twat.

The more I read, the more I am convinced you are a horrible little man.

You twist everything to fit your delusional image of what it means to be a so called Christian or a so called soldier or a so called anything you can put your old fashioned disgraced outlook to.

Society has moved on. I am purely humouring you. Nobody gives a shit about old men hankering for an idealised community that never exactly existed. Except in your head and the heads of the Telegraph / M*il readership.

Keith.

Nobody gives a fuck.

Sit in your chair with your newspaper and rants. I used to inspect care homes. Full of people like you who are and by their views should be ignored.

And they are.

And society is slowly recovering.

Thank Clapton.

If the world is to take a good look at itself, the first job is to disregard religious minded fools like you. You are part of the problem not the solution. Rattling on about religion being a factor just encourages other religious fruitcakes to commit atrocities.

The difference between you and them is semantics.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Elmore
Date: 16 Nov 13 - 04:07 PM

1199. Do I hear 1200? Going once. Going twice..........

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Nov 13 - 02:08 AM

Caring about persecution makes you human, not a "religious minded fool."
I was shocked that people argued this.
I was prepared for indifference, but not hate from otherwise apparently decent people.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 17 Nov 13 - 02:20 AM

Read your own words. You insult others by insisting debate on war is disrespectful.

I for one am replying in kind.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Nov 13 - 05:01 AM

You insult others by insisting debate on war is disrespectful.

Made up shit again!
Of course I do not think or believe that.

"Remembrance is an obscenity"
I think that is disrespectful.

Claiming that the dead were jingoistic fools incapable of understanding why they fought, in direct contradiction of all the historians of the period, is a slander.

Why is your need to believe that lie so strong that you can ignore the findings of all the historians?
"Those historians should know better"
They should take lessons from you musket?
Right?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: bobad
Date: 17 Nov 13 - 08:27 AM

WASHINGTON (RNS) The highest-ranking Muslim in the British government on Friday (Nov. 15) called on Western governments to do more to protect besieged Christian minorities across the world, particularly in the Holy Land where they are now seen as "outsiders."

Baroness Sayeeda Warsi, the government's minister for faith and the first Muslim member of a British cabinet, said religious freedom is a proxy for human rights and must not be an "add-on" to foreign policy.

"A mass exodus is taking place, on a biblical scale," she said in a speech at Georgetown University. "In some places, there is a real danger that Christianity will become extinct."

HuffPo Canada

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 17 Nov 13 - 11:04 AM

Do keep up bobad. Ms Warsi's observations were discussed a few posts up. If you read her full contribution, including the bit you noted where she says religious freedom is a proxy for human rights, you see the agenda behind the observation.

She isn't a full cabinet member out of interest. She used to be but Cameron sacked her for being a loose cannon.....

I love how pointing out that being specifically Christian is not the main factor is portrayed by Keith as meaning you deny there is persecution or that disagreeing with him is disrespectful etc.

At the end of the day, Keith and others, Warsi rather openly, want western society to take religion in the western world more seriously. Hence tying it into persecution that was always there, always has been and always will be in backward countries. Despite Keith's smears to the contrary, nobody is denying the reports, nobody is denying the horror, nobody is denying that something needs doing about it. But to say it is because of the bible or Jesus is sheer stupidity.

By wanting religion to have a higher ranking in society, they would wish us to go backwards too.

Oh, by the way, she isn't the highest ranking Muslim in government. We have no Muslims, no Christians and no members of The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster in the UK government. Government is for all. Certain sectarian Bishops sit in the upper house on the basis of their religion, an old tradition that us overdue for reform, but she would never be allowed in on that basis. No Muslims and no women!

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: bobad
Date: 18 Nov 13 - 08:08 AM

Boko Haram seizing slave 'brides' in Nigeria

"In a new development, Boko Haram is abducting Christian women whom it converts to Islam on pain of death and then forces into "marriage" with fighters"

CBC News

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 19 Nov 13 - 08:18 AM

Here you go Keith, just for you!

1. It comes from your favourite rag but one, The Daily Telegraph.

2. It was written by your old boss, Beardy.

3. It tells UK based christians to stop bleating on about persecution as it bears no resemblance whatsoever to the real persecution that people, christians included, suffer. Attempts to confuse the word Christian into stories of real persecution in order to highlight UK and USA "persecution" is something that seems to worry him as much as it does me.

I agree with him on many points, Especially putting the senile old fool Carey in his place.

Never thought I'd say that about someone who failed to bring his discredited organisation into the real world. His successor is having a stab this week though regarding women. His "stop attacking gays" stance though is shallow whilst ever he opposes the rights of gay people. Full stop.

Beardy cuts the crap

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Nov 13 - 08:51 AM

It tells UK based christians to stop bleating on about persecution as it bears no resemblance whatsoever to the real persecution that people, christians included, suffer.

So what?
This thread has never been about "persecution" in Western countries.
It is about the "real persecution" he refers to as well.

BTW your link does not work.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Elmore
Date: 19 Nov 13 - 12:31 PM

My wife was in the hospital in the middle of Nowhere, Ga. where we now reside. A sweet little hospital employee asked her what preacher she wanted to visit her. "None", my wife responded. The girl wasn't sweet after that. In fact, she was downright nasty. Another example of Christian persecution.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Elmore
Date: 19 Nov 13 - 01:48 PM

Dayna Morales, a server in a NJ restaurant waited on a party who ridiculed her, saying that they thought her name should be Don. After running up a $93 bill they left her a note saying they wouldn't tip her because of her lifestyle. Christian persecution.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 19 Nov 13 - 01:54 PM

as bad as this account of a , presumably, Christian girls unspecified nastiness is, it hardly compares to having a knife to your throat as bobads link describes.
just as a matter of interest, what did this girl do or say to your wife elmore ?.
I certainly don't endorse any nastiness,-even if it is of the same minor sort that some Christians are accused of complaining about.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket being patriotic
Date: 19 Nov 13 - 02:25 PM

Tell you what Pete. How about the Christian vicars attending executions?

If they said they were opposed to capital punishment they weren't allowed to be on the chaplaincy team for the prison.

Trying to compare murder with obnoxious people isn't very clever. The example above of disdain of a lifestyle is interesting. To object as a Christian doesn't add up to the Christian ethic.

Does it not worry you that Christian ethics are a convenient excuse for snobbery?

I love hypocrisy. Mainly because it gives me a chance to validate my deep held views. Unlike those who are wedded to what they are told to believe, I constantly question my own stance.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Elmore
Date: 19 Nov 13 - 02:45 PM

Pete: I agree with you to an extent,but these minor incidents like the Crusades, the slaughter of the American Indians, Bosnia, etc, etc. tend to mount up after a couple of thousand years. I wonder if The College of The Holy Cross sill nicknames itself The Crusaders.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 19 Nov 13 - 07:28 PM

"Others echoed the bishop's warning, saying that Christians would only be safe if they left Pakistan."

More or less exactly what K A of H said Irish Catholicwomen who wanted not to die when an abortion could save them, should do.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,musket triumphant
Date: 20 Nov 13 - 03:53 AM

Regular readers may recall a certain Keith A of Hertford saying he has no links to the far right UK Independence Party. I mentioned his support for them as part of examining his real agenda in this thread. Keith had waffled on about Muslims coming over here.

He denied he had used the term "we" in respect of them and was supported by Mcgraw of Harlow and MtheGM.   Musket must apologise.

After careful consideration. No. I have decided to repeat it instead.

Although, people will be fed up with reading my words so I shall let Keith A of Hertford say it instead.

Ready?


Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 21 Dec 12 - 06:28 AM 

The UK Independence Party has many in its ranks who are gay men or women who have, without fuss or ostentation, taken advantage of the new arrangements. As a libertarian party, we are entirely at ease with their choice and wish all of them well.



In case you think I have taken it out of context or removed some quote parentheses, no. I have cut and pasted the full post. Just above this, Keith challenged Don for saying bad things about them, causing Don to reply, causing this defence.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Nov 13 - 04:31 AM

The discussion was about the position of UKIP on that issue.

I provided a quote from the UKIP site.
It is still there.
http://www.ukip.org/issues-2/policy-pages/same-sex-marriage

I WAS QUOTING FROM A UKIP SITE!

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 20 Nov 13 - 05:34 AM

You always cite your quotes.

Except this one?

Nice try.

Cutting and pasting your diatribe is par for the course anyway.

An apology isn't needed as I wouldn't normally acknowledge one from a xenophobic liar.

You could apologise to everyone who defended you though....

Just a thought.





If anyone is interested, a read of the posts above and below the one I just gave will put it in full context. I'll warn you though if you didn't read it first time around, it isn't pretty.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Nov 13 - 05:40 AM

No need to cite the quote.
It was obvious to any passing moron that it was made by a UKIP spokesman.
It was, and still sits on their site.

It never occurred that some idiot might assume I was the UKIP spokesperson!

Again, I really do not try to make you look an idiot Musket.
It just happens.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Nov 13 - 05:53 AM

Keith challenged Don for saying bad things about them, causing Don to reply, causing this defence.

No.
Don described them as far right.
I asked if they were.
I googled and posted their position on gay marriage, the subject of the thread.

Don cross posted in between. We were not aware of each others post.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 20 Nov 13 - 07:37 AM

So you reckon everybody reads UKIP website material? Just you, I reckon....

I guessed it may have been cut and pasted from elsewhere all the same, as it was rather eloquent by your standards.

Still no apology?

Not even a little one to your ardent followers and apologists?

Come on... A mumbled "sshorr.....y" is all it takes.

Getting apologies off your chest helps with your ratings you know. Your glorious leader apologised for Godfrey Bloom and came out it better than he should have done....

If I were a right wing fruitcake, I wouldn't wriggle like you do. I'd have courage of my unfortunate conviction. (Most of the real ones, as opposed to armchair ones do have convictions, but that's another matter.)

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Nov 13 - 08:02 AM

I don't read it either.
I would have googled "ukip gay marriage"

Anyone, even you, could have googled the quote to find its source.

I have no affiliation or connection to or with UKIP and have never claimed to.

Only a spokesperson would make a pronouncement like that.
Only an idiot would make such a silly mistake.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: bobad
Date: 20 Nov 13 - 08:16 AM

Don't sweat it Keith, this is the usual tactic employed by Musket and his ilk. When they can't counter facts and evidence in a discussion they resort to smearing their adversary. Most of us here see right through this ruse as it is glaringly obvious to any fair minded observer. It has become rather old and predictable to everyone but them it would seem.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 20 Nov 13 - 08:28 AM

I don't have an ilk. I have a greyhound and up till last week some tropical fish, but no ilk.

Countering facts and evidence is something both you and I could learn a lot from by reading Keith's diatribe, Bobad.



Are you saying you are a spokesperson then Keith? You see, you were quite happy for that to go out as you at the time. Nowhere on that thread do you clarify your forgetting to call it a quote. Even though the very next post picks you up on it...

I don't think you are a member. Even they have standards. But you were happy to be associated with them, and your posts on many subjects, this included, show you to be a rather right wing distasteful character. I have tried reasoning, I have tried joking and I have tried outright confrontation, but your character has remained constant.

Good.

I have your measure. I will carry on weighing your contributions to threads against your prejudice, preconceptions and ideology. If others are taken in by your citing big books, or selective paragraphs from them, that's for them to concern themselves with.

Me? I just think it sad that an intelligent person cannot be objective.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Nov 13 - 08:34 AM

you were quite happy for that to go out as you at the time. Nowhere on that thread do you clarify your forgetting to call it a quote. Even though the very next post picks you up on it...


No. It was so obviously a UKIP quote, not me.

The next post was yours.
If you were picking up on it, it was too obscure for me.

No-one else made your stupid assumption.
Funny that.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Nov 13 - 09:00 AM

"a rather right·wing distasteful character."
.,,.

Are these two adjectives entirely synonymous in your view, then Musket?
Merely curious. I think we should be told, dontcha know...

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 20 Nov 13 - 09:43 AM

True Keith. nobody made a stupid assumption. Enough had you weighed up though...

Michael. I have no problem with "right wing distasteful" any more than "left wing distasteful." Both extremes are not to my tastes. In fact, if you get philosophical about it, (as you for one tend to) there is little difference.

Into the semantics of English, "rather" would infer a good distance along the pendulum arc, and the further you go, the more distasteful you get. I sit back and smile as depending on who is disagreeing with me, I am either right wing (Bridge) or left wing (Akenhateon.) It helps I suppose by being an ex miner who became CEO of a manufacturing concern and these days lives on a combination of investments and work in the public sector. Part of me would have shallow people stereotype me as left wing, other parts of me could be stereotyped as right wing.

As I don't see myself as either, (capitalism to fund a social programme works in principle for me..) I have no problem whatsoever in putting, as you say, the two adjectives together.

Truth is, I'm Musket when posting on here.

Anything else you are curious about? Always happy to oblige, always delighted to see people get judgemental based on their preconceptions. Always glad to see the likes of Keith for what they are...

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Nov 13 - 09:53 AM

True Keith. nobody made a stupid assumption. Enough had you weighed up though...

Nobody except you.
Ake got some banter for talking of voting UKIP, but no-one thought I was.
Except you.
If you had said at the time, I could have exposed your idiot assumption then.

You acknowledge it was a quote.
You accept I am not a member.
What exactly are you accusing me of?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 05:46 AM

I didn't say I accept you are not a member. I said they wouldn't be that desperate. Different thing entirely....

Anyway, here's something hot off The BBC news website of Christians persecuting Muslims here in a The UK.

Muslims persecuted by Christians in UK

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 11:05 AM

That is unacceptable, but a quantum leap from the kind of persecution that leads to the extinction of communities.

Our Muslim communities are thriving and growing.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Elmore
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 12:58 PM

I went to the doctor. I said, "Doctor, I get up every morning, look in the mirror, and want to throw up." Doctor says, "Well, at least your eyesight's perfect."

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 01:26 PM

Musket: You provided a link just above which you called

"Muslims persecuted by Christians in UK";

but on linking all one found was a news item about a Muslim organisation complaining, with perfect justice it appears, of some negative posting about Muslims & about Islam on the Internet. I failed to find any claim, or a single piece of evidence, that this was in any way specifically a Christian campaign. Quite likely some of those posting these ill-natured messages had been subjected to childhood Baptism into the CofE or some other notionally Christian denomination, as many people have been [tho far fewer than at one time!]; but there was no evidence that any significant number of them were in any way practising Christians within any meaningful sense or definition. So the title you chose for your link was tendentious and dishonest, and in no significant way related to the title or topic of this thread.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 01:27 PM

Musket: You provided a link just above which you called

"Muslims persecuted by Christians in UK";

but on linking all one found was a news item about a Muslim organisation complaining, with perfect justice it appears, of some negative posting about Muslims & about Islam on the Internet. I failed to find any claim, or a single piece of evidence, that this was in any way specifically a Christian campaign. Quite likely some of those posting these ill-natured messages had been subjected to childhood Baptism into the CofE or some other notionally Christian denomination, as many people have been [tho far fewer than at one time!]; but there was no evidence that any significant number of them were in any way practising Christians within any meaningful sense or definition. So the title you chose for your link was tendentious and dishonest, and in no significant way related to the title or topic of this thread.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 12:44 PM

Sorry about repetition -- not sure how that happened. Expect clones will delete one of them...

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 01:01 PM

But in the light of the irony in my post, you might wants them both deleted?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 02:30 PM

Another case of the term "irony" being misapplied.

Funny the way some threads just won't die. The undead...

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket getting bored now
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 04:40 PM

Of course it is. Here, you haven't got some American blood in you perchance? Just a thought.

The thread won't die whilst you insist on sweeping generalisations and putting your particular delusion on a pedestal.

Sorry that the facts you have been presented with by many people don't fit with your view, formed well before you started your thread.

If you want lots of posts agreeing with you and marvelling how clever and perceptive you are, post it on a God botherer website. They'll pander to your silly claims. You might want to take one or two of the rocket scientists from this thread with you for moral support.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Nov 13 - 03:24 AM

BBC.
It almost seems like the whole town has moved in, turning the Catholic Mission into a huge market and camp for displaced people.

People are too afraid to leave the Catholic Mission, even when their homes are just down the street"

Tailors, hair-dressers and food- and cigarette-sellers are going about their business, next to thousands of blue tents covered with plastic sheeting with the logo of the UN children's fund, Unicef.

More than 35,000 Christians have sought refuge here, after their homes were attacked by a loose alliance of former rebels known as Seleka, who ousted Mr Bozize.

The figures are still rising and an estimated 1,000 people, mainly women and children, arrived last week, non-governmental organisations say.

But even as people try to get on with their lives, this is a community under siege.

People are too afraid to leave the Catholic Mission, even when their homes are just down the street.

Nina Saragba was leaning against her shack and sobbing, when she spoke to the BBC.

She said she had just heard that her brother had been shot dead as he tried to go to town.

Fortunately, he was eventually found, badly beaten but alive.

Residents say such attacks are common - as soon as they leave the Catholic Mission, they can be detained, beaten or shot and killed by Seleka fighters, if they are identified as members of a Christian self-defence militia called anti-balaka (anti-machete).
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-24802898

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,musket asking the point
Date: 26 Nov 13 - 04:18 AM

I think we all know there is persecution going on.

Is there a point to that post?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Nov 13 - 04:24 AM

Yes.
It is a current example of serious religious persecution that is the subject of this thread.
Is there a point to your post?
Is there a point to you?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Stringsinger
Date: 26 Nov 13 - 02:12 PM

Fortunately there are Jewish people over the world who do not accept the prattle of
Christian Zionazism and have become, themselves, the true victims of persecution by Christians.

When I visited a synagogue in Hungary, it was buried into the ground by a Catholic
Church which was erected on top of it. This event has repeated itself many times
historically.

The measure of Christians being persecuted was resolved in the era of Constantine
and the only effect of this persecution that I see is the Zionist persecution of
Palestinian Christians.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 26 Nov 13 - 03:41 PM

Ah. Abuse. Welcome to the pigsty. Can you wrestle?

Society had been trying to eradicate the xenophobic serf righteous attitude of repugnant reactionary fools for a long time. Johnny Speight lampooned the odious character in Till Death do us Part and efforts to marginalise bigots had been going on ever since.

Today, we laugh when a comic refers to such bufoons with "I'm not racist but..." Or "all I want is a sensible grown up discussion..."   Far better than our shameful past when society thought disgraceful criminals like Bernard Manning were mainstream. I know people say you shouldn't judge the past by today, but I walked out of a charity concert he was appearing in many years ago.

You see Keith, you represent everything that was wrong with the self righteous holier than thou little bloody Englander. You chisel away at reality when it doesn't look like your 1950s perspective. That's why revisionist historians who are too kind to failures we used to cheer are right up your street. That's why your political views reflect those who openly harker for a past that never happened.

That's why you see stories of Christian persecution and shout it from the rooftops. Not because of the awful persecution but of the affront to your precious warped perception of Christianity.

You just don't get it. The other posters disagreeing with you have to be wrong. If they try again they are liars. Another attempt and they are disrespectful to whatever your concern of the day is.

Surely you aren't really beyond hope? Is there a nice Keith under that odious mask?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: bobad
Date: 08 Dec 13 - 08:39 AM

Meet SELEKA: The Muslim militia hunting down Christians in the Central African Republic. Over 300 butchered so far. No outrage? No thousand posts condemning this atrocity? No protests against anyone? Oh yes, there are no Jews involved.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,musket again
Date: 08 Dec 13 - 05:05 PM

Thanks for pointing it out.

Bloody awful.

Tell you what, I shall take a liberty and say on behalf of every mudcat member, it is disgraceful, tragic, awful and somebody should remind UN of their obligations to assist in stopping it.



Now. That didn't hurt did it bobad?

Mind you, get your condemnation in before Sir Max Hastings rewrites it from the perspective of Seleka. You know how fickle "historians" and those who buy their books can be.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Dec 13 - 04:24 AM

One of the disturbing aspects of Irish history is underlined by the "killeens" – old, graveyards containing unmarked graves on unconsecrated ground specifically created for children who were not baptised and were forbidden burial in officially blessed ones – even those children who died at birth.
Happily a thing of the past – or is it?
Wonder if this comes under the "Christian Persecution" heading – probably not if the persecutors are Christians.
Jim Carroll   

IRISH TIMES Thu, Dec 12, 2013, 00:01
FOR CHILDREN WITH NO BAPTISMAL CERTIFICATE THE SCHOOL GATES SEEM TO BE CLOSED
Kitty Holland
Opinion: The State surely has a duty to offer parents access to secular education for their children
Call for end to religious discrimination by schools
For children with no baptismal certificate the school gates seem to be closed
Religious control of schools is neither tolerant nor inclusive

My son, who will be four years old in March, is not baptised. He has been rejected from all four national schools in our area – Dublin 6.
I put his name down for all of them, two of them religious schools, when he was a baby.
The little Church of Ireland school, which is the nearest one to our home, has had his name on its application list since he was six weeks old. In its letter last month the board of management "regrets to inform" me that my application has been "unsuccessful".
"Your child is currently number 177 on our waiting list . . . All offers of places were made in accordance with the school enrolment policy."
The criteria according to which children can get in the queue are then set out. There are 11 categories, the first being "Church of Ireland children of the [local] parishes," followed by "COI siblings/Protestant siblings" followed by COI children from outside the parishes. Next in are COI children from inter-church marriages, then other Protestant children, then other siblings, then children of inter-church marriages where the child is not COI, children of staff, Roman Catholic Children, Orthodox children and last, the category into which my son falls,
"other children".
This school will take any child of almost any faith from anywhere in the country before they will take an unbaptised child living around the corner.
The Roman Catholic school is a little further away. My son is 117th on the waiting list. His name has been down since he was a baby, but date of application is not relevant there, the principal told me. The letter turning him away from there said siblings of current pupils were prioritised. This is understandable and "all 17 such applicants are being offered places".
"The remaining 17 places are being offered to Catholic children resident within the Catholic parish . . . We regret that we are unable to offer your child a place in our junior infant class for 2014."

THE WAITING GAME
The other two other schools, one a non-denominational Gaelscoil and the other multi-denominational, should surely be more welcoming and as I had his name down with the multi-d since he was three weeks old I was hopeful. However when I called I was told he was "about 220th on the list". The enrolment secretary told me parents travelled from across Dublin to enrol their children there, such is the demand. Again at at the Gaelscoil, with parents travelling from across the city to get their kids in, he's 239th on the waiting list.
There is clearly huge demand for school places in Dublin 6, not helped by parents – including myself – applying to several schools, and this affects all families. What is also clear however is that denominational or faith schools' enrolment criteria impact in a gross and disproportionate way on children such as my son, by excluding them simply because they have not been baptised. To be clear, these State-funded faith-schools – which account for 96 per cent of primary schools – are allowed to direct a religiously based exclusion at children as young as four. This is unacceptable. It is particularly heinous in a democracy which describes itself as a Republic.
Is it any wonder that every single one of my friends who has children has had them baptised – and not one of them to my knowledge attends church outside such events as weddings, funerals or first Holy Communions?
The Irish State has been repeatedly castigated for allowing this discrimination against children to continue, by the United Nations in 2006, 2008 and again in 2011, when its Human Rights Committee noted with concern that the dominance of denominational education was "depriving many parents and children who so wish to have access to secular primary education".
In 2011 the Irish Human Rights Commission called on the Department of Education to end schools' religious discrimination against children in admission policies.
In no other area of society, where a public service is funded by taxpayers is such discrimination permitted. One can only imagine the outcry if a public hospital announced it would only treat ill Catholics; or if the local Garda station announced it was only going to investigate crimes committed against people of faith.
The churches controlling our schools argue that their ethos requires special protection. The Equal Status Act 2000 protects their right to protect their ethos of exclusion. Although religion is named as one of the nine grounds of discrimination illegal in public life, section 7 allows schools to exclude children if "it is proved that the refusal is essential to maintain the ethos of the school".

NO, MINISTER
In September the Minister for Education, Ruairí Quinn, launched a public consultation on inclusiveness in primary schools. He said: "Schools should be welcoming places for all children from the local community. We all know that Irish society has changed a lot in recent years.
Our education system needs to adapt, to make sure that, as well as continuing to cater for children with more traditional religious beliefs, there is also respect for children of different traditions and beliefs."
However, his department is also consulting on a new Education (Admissions to Schools) Bill, the draft of which maintains schools' right to keep out children with the 'wrong' religion, or none.
Yesterday the Ombudsman for Children published her advice on the Bill.
She says: "... no child in general should be given preferential access to publicly-funded education on the basis of their religion", subject to limited exceptions and with the Minister's permission.
Mr Quinn is legally obliged to vindicate the right, possessed by every child, to their education. Schools are places for numbers and letters, not for icons.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 14 Dec 13 - 09:25 AM

Anyone tried telling them their obligations under EU human rights that they are party to? Freedom of expression of religion isn't religious privilege. Try telling that to the myriad God botherers.

As I said at the beginning of this or possibly some other Christian nonsense thread. In The UK you sometimes have to say you are a Christian to get your kids into the nearest school thanks to the disgraceful faith schools taking over state ones.

Nothing wrong in fobbing off some old fool by telling them you believe in fairies, but you shouldn't have to all the same. Your kids shouldn't have to be exposed to medieval drivel that could scar them for life either.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Dec 13 - 11:39 AM

That's how all religion works Muskie
The same bunch had dedicated themselves to fighting same-sex marriage and will probably back their campaign with threats of excommunication, just as they did with pregnancy termination
It seems that the persecution of children by depriving them of an education on religious grounds doesn't count as persecution n some quarters.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Elmore
Date: 14 Dec 13 - 11:56 AM

Sometimes the whole Christmas deal feels like Christian persecution to me, with O'Reilly and Palin as the chief persecutors. Still, I'm not such an old fart that I won't wish people a Merry Christmas, guaranteed not to offend anybody here in the most conservative congressional district east of the Mississippi. (9th Ga.)

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: bobad
Date: 14 Dec 13 - 01:38 PM

"60 Minutes" reports on the Copts, Egypt's Christians who have suffered one of their worst periods in nearly 2,000 years.

The persecution of Egypt's Coptic Christians

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Dec 13 - 03:43 PM

""60 Minutes" reports on the Copts, Egypt's Christians who have suffered one of their worst periods in nearly 2,000 years"
As I said - that's religion for you when it is allowed to get out of hand!
Care to comment on Christians persecuting children Boo-boo - better, worse, not important?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 02:40 AM

Faith schools in Britain are oversubscribed and so good that Musket advocated atheist parents to lie, and instruct their children in the lying, to get them in.
Strange persecution.
Insulting to the victims of real persecution to make the comparison.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 02:59 AM

Getting children to believe superstition as fact isn't lying? Saying you believe in all that in order to get your children into a school is?

No wonder rational people dismiss superstition and shake their heads at the hypocritical idiots.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 04:03 AM

No interest in Christians persecuting children - why am I not surprised?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 08:58 AM

No wonder rational people dismiss superstition and shake their heads at the hypocritical idiots.

Nelson Mandela?
Martin Luther King?
John F Kennedy?
Obama?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 09:34 AM

Fascinating. You reckon that by pointing out hypocrisy I am dismissing everyone with faith ?

That is self persecution and you being a Christian and all that, you may wish to add yourself to your tally you are knocking up.

The world leaders you mention don't have a track record of pushing their faith down the throats of others. Their faith is or was a) personal and b) vote worthy.

What's your excuse ?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 09:41 AM

.The world leaders you mention don't have a track record of pushing their faith down the throats of others

Neither do I?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket once more into the britches
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 11:25 AM

Since when were you a headmaster or world leader? I know they reckon the trade is dumbing down but let's be reasonable here. My asking your excuse was that I spoke of those who ram superstition down the throats of others. You came up with a list of those who don't or didn't so I asked your excuse for raising it. Twat.

I love how you reckon it's all about you. We were discussing faith schools getting the contract for state provision and how weak politicians are too scared to remind them of their obligations to take on children regardless of which or none imaginary friend their parents subscribe to.

Why are you asking about you? Are you putting yourself on a list of world leaders now? We ascertained your faith a while ago. You have belief but don't believe, or however you reconcile fantasy with reality.

Oh, you also waffled on about atheist parents lying. I don't recall mentioning atheists. I said rational people who don't go in for delusion or imaginary friends. Sorry to split hairs but that does not make one an atheist. Rejection of theism is atheist, if you understand language construction. Seeing religion as somebody else's hobby but not yours is not atheism, it is, if it needs a term, irreligious.

Whether God botherers like it or not, faith schools cannot push their superstition down the throats of children and cannot reject applications on the basis of rational parents.

But they do.

Christian and Muslim ones do.

And you reckon parents refusing to join in with this illegal charade are in the wrong?

Here's that ball, now please run along for once and play with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 11:37 AM

Your previous post was actually directed at me.
The final sentence was quite specific.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 11:59 AM

All religions persecute given the opportunity
It appears when that Christians persecute children because of their being of the wrong religion (or even just not following the particular custom of that religion) - it is not worthy of comment, let alone condemnation.
Hypocrisy rules OK
"Neither do I?"
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Elmore
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 12:17 PM

Feels like the Christians are persecuting the atheists here in the States in order to further their conservative decidedly non-Christian agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 12:28 PM

I hoped and intended this thread to be about the kind of persecution that drives whole communities to extinction by murder and torture and terror.

I can not stop these people hijacking it for their own purposes.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: bobad
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 01:24 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Elmore - PM
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 12:17 PM

"Feels like the Christians are persecuting the atheists here in the States in order to further their conservative decidedly non-Christian agenda."

So why don't you start your own thread about this instead of trying to hijack a thread that is about the persecution of Christians?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 01:46 PM

Dear bobad,

There is a thread called Christian persecution. Many posters pointed out that the persecution was based on being a large minority in the cases mentioned. Further, that Christian based communities are susceptible to such persecution due to implied association with drone bombs, western ideals and other non deity based factors.

Some, Keith A Hole of Hertford particularly seem to reckon it is being Christian rather than being different that counts. Others refuted such a pompous idea.

So, the thread ended weeks ago.

Perpetuation is based on pointing out that persecution is a two edged blade and that the word is not owned by pogroms, massacre or other atrocities. Persecution has many fronts and some have patiently tried to point out that bleating by western safe Christians whilst slowly trying to inflict their superstition on others isn't welcomed.

Yours sincerely,

Reality.


And now a word from our sponsor, Musket Enterprises:

"This is good time of the year to persecute Western Christians. Timber yards cannot shift stock as DIY enthusiasts stay indoors, so timber and large nails are cheap to purchase.

Much cheaper than getting a licence for keeping lions anyway."

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 01:52 PM

They even make jokes about the suffering and death of innocent, helpless people, and choose to do it on this thread.
They could start one of their own, but hijacking this one suits their purposes better.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 02:05 PM

"I hoped and intended this thread to be about the kind of persecution that drives whole communities to extinction by murder and torture and terror."
Whattyu mean is you hoped for another chance to take a pop at Muslims and leave Christian persecution of children uncommented on.
Life's not liek that unfortunately - religious persecution is persecution, whoever carries it out.
Stop manipulating topics because you are too much of a hypocrite to admit that persecution goes hand-in-hand with religion
You cannot hope to discuss persecution without allowing free discussion on all its aspects - especially it's causes - otherwise all discussion becomes an exercise of fingerpointing - a form of persecution in itself
Would you care to comment on the persecution of children by the world's largest and most powerful Christian church - no - I thought not
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Elmore
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 02:14 PM

Hell, I don't know. Seems to me the term "Christian Persecution" is ambiguous, and represents the fuzzy thinking characteristic of the initiator of the thread. Ergo, I have the right to address it as I see fit. Why don't one of you militant Christians start a new thread titled Persecution of Christians? Have to go now, and trim the Christmas tree.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: bobad
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 02:34 PM

You goddamn well know the intent of this thread and are just trying to make cute with your "ambiguous" bullshit. And your little ploy of labeling me a "militant Christian" when I am not even a Christian, is borrowed straight out of the playbook of your fellow infantile posters who resort to name calling when they know they have lost the debate.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 02:51 PM

I hoped and intended this thread to be about the kind of persecution that drives whole communities to extinction by murder and torture and terror.

I can not stop these people hijacking it for their own purposes.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 03:11 PM

"I have the right to address it as I see fit."
It is utter nonsense to discuss the persecution of any religion without being able to discuss the causes of religious persecution as a whole.
It is totally unprecedented that any members of this forum should take it upon themselves to prevent any aspect of the subject - Big Brother gone mad.
These threads should never be controlled in order to make them wailing walls to display signs of grief, without discussing the causes of that grief.
They should never be allowed to be soapboxes for inter-religious/race hate as they have often been in the hands of certain individuals.
Yes Boo-boo, we do know what certain people would like the intent of this thread to be - it doesn't work like that.
All religious persecution is evil - so is staying silent one form of persecution and attempting to censor any discussion on it, while deliberately using one form of persecution to persecute those of a different faith.
"Christian Persecution" by its very title has to include persecution by Christians.
Someone will be suggesting that Muslims persecute because Christians because of "cultural implants" - good heavens, what is the world coming to!!!
Don'tsuppose you'd like to have another bash at telling us your thoughts on the Christian Church persecuting children - (some of them Christian children included)
You "lost the battle" (if there is such a thing on a debating form) when you exposed your hypocrisy in refusing to respond to religious persecution because the persecutors were not your target - no other reason.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Elmore
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 03:13 PM

Not a Christian Bobad? Guess they wouldn't have you either. How can I miss you if you won't go away? Merry Christmas anyhow.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 03:59 PM

you exposed your hypocrisy in refusing to respond to religious persecution because the persecutors were not your target
Lie.
No-one has done that.

I have refused to respond when the "persecution" is not the kind of persecution that drives whole communities to extinction by murder and torture and terror, but something in an entirely different category.

Something worthy of discussion, but not what this thread is about.
Why won't you start a dedicated thread?
Why must you hijack this one?
What is your agenda, in case we have not guessed.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 04:44 PM

"No-one has done that."
Yes - you have done that on every thread where Islam has been the subject
You turned a thread entitled Muslim persecution", which started out to draw attentiong to a statement that prejudice against Muslig has now become an acceptible form of bigotry, into a blatent attack on Muslims - including describing them as being "culturally implanted" towards having sex with underage girls.
This thread is about whatever those participating in it choose to make it within the subject, which is "Christian persecution" - to attempt to interfere with that right is blatant censorship.
Stop it, or I shall request that you be prevented with the democratic rights of Mudcat members.
My "agenda" is to put all forms of eligious persecution into context - we all know what your is.
top interfering or piss off
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 01:35 AM

Ok. Disagreeing with Keith A Hole of Hertford is hijacking a thread eh?

Pointing out reasons other than the little baby Jesus as an excuse for the atrocities is drifting off thread eh?

Tell you what Keith. Start a thread with your take on it and then ask the mud elves to close it. Far easier than having your delusions shattered and your pomposity deflated.

Taking the piss out of pious buggers here is somehow disrespectful to people suffering by association elsewhere ? Your God certainly seems to have been made in your image.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 02:12 AM

No. Not what I am saying at all.

I think that the disappearance of thousands of years old communities through persecution is worthy of a thread.
I also think that the issues you raise are, but there is no comparison.

You could start a thread.
You don't because you seek to destroy this one.
You do not want its subject to be discussed so you get together and swamp it with other issues.
That is real censorship.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 02:52 AM

China.
http://news.sky.com/story/1182848/chinas-illegal-detention-of-christian-pastor

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 03:08 AM

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4065/september-horror-christians-islam

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 04:44 AM

"No. Not what I am saying at all."
It's exactly what you are saying
You have no right to demand that anybody stick to your line of discussion because it doesn't suit your agenda.
Considering all aspects of persecution - especially its causes, is an important part of these discussions.
Putting persecution in context of wholesale persecution by the Christian Churches puts religious persecution exactly where it is - the abuse of religious influence that can be connected to religions throughout the world - the Christian church included.
You have been warned about jack-booting your way through these threads because they raise uncomfortable truths before now - stop it.
You want to see religious persecution up close - take a look at some of the Islamophobic garbage on this forum - including your own - you might make a start with your 'Muslim Prejudice' saga which contains views that have led to deprivation of human rights, long-term persecution - even death - of law-abiding Muslims living in Britain.
You want Christian persecution - if you can't be arsed with children deprived of education because they weren't baptised into the Christian church,try the countless children who have been raped and abused by Christian clergymen - probably over the centuries - try Googling "Christian Brothers abuse" for an update.
Then of course, there's the women who have to go abroad to have pregnancies terminated or are let die because of medieval religion -influenced laws.
Or homosexuals deprived of their human rights and cast out of society as 'disease carriers' and 'perverts' - again, largely because of church influence (Christian and Muslim churches b.t.w.).   
The fact that this aspect of "Christian Persecution" is of no interest to you whatever and has no part in this discussion, according to you,       says what needs to be said about you and everybody who shares your repressive extremist outlook on life.
Now - let everybody have their say on all these matters if you're not interested.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 05:26 AM

You have no right to demand that anybody stick to your line of discussion because it doesn't suit your agenda.

Correct, but I have the right to decline to join in the hijacking of this thread.

You have every right to join with your mates and swamp this thread with posts on other issues.
You could choose to start new threads and allow this thread to deal with its issue, but that is not your agenda.

You want this discussion stopped.
Fascist bullies.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 05:35 AM

No. I for one don't wIsh to stop any discussion. But you have to decide whether you want to discuss reality or bollocks.

With the huge numbers of people being persecuted in the world for their creed, colour, race or association, there is a huge problem. A number of people, myself included, posted to question the wisdom of concentrating on one group identifier. Yes, it is the most published and counted. Yes, they have an affinity with many Western people.

But persecution because of a technicality of Christianity as opposed to any other belief?

That's what you were saying earlier and that is when I stopped taking this thread seriously. It doesn't need hijacking as it is built on false premise in the first place. You insisted on exploring why so many people identified as Christians are being persecuted yet when reasons are proposed, you throw your toys out of the pram.

The real me doesn't shoot from the hip like this. I sincerely hope you are a nicer person too.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 06:01 AM

I would be happy to discuss and deplore that kind of persecution of whatever group, not just Christian.
The kind of persecution that drives whole communities to extinction by murder and torture and terror.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 06:51 AM

"Correct, but I have the right to decline to join in the hijacking of this thread."
You have no right to describe the discussion of persecution by Christians as "hijacking" - it isn't and it is pure prejudiced lying to do so.
Most forms of religion persecute and cause misery and death to believers and non-believers alike, and to make a special case for one or the other is only to exacerbate that situation.
Religious persecution will continue while it is drilled into people from birth and is allowed to in any way to influence the secular governance of countries.
Until the teaching and following of every religion is made a decision by all people it will continue to be what it is - a threat to our peace and well-being.
While it is taught as fact and remains part of our law and decision making of countries throughout the world people will continue to kill and die for their particular brand of belief.
Refusing to allow discussion of that fact is, as I have said, persecution in itself.
Stop manipulating threads and censoring discussion and stop using this forum as your own personal possession to soapbox your bigotry and intolerance.
You don't want to discuss persecution by Christians, fine, we'll come to our own conclusions about your motives for refusing to do so and let know what we come up with, if that's all right by you!!!
Hard not to notice that discussing persecution by Christians only became a problem when you painted yourself into yet another corner
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 06:51 AM

"Correct, but I have the right to decline to join in the hijacking of this thread."
You have no right to describe the discussion of persecution by Christians as "hijacking" - it isn't and it is pure prejudiced lying to do so.
Most forms of religion persecute and cause misery and death to believers and non-believers alike, and to make a special case for one or the other is only to exacerbate that situation.
Religious persecution will continue while it is drilled into people from birth and is allowed to in any way to influence the secular governance of countries.
Until the teaching and following of every religion is made a decision by all people it will continue to be what it is - a threat to our peace and well-being.
While it is taught as fact and remains part of our law and decision making of countries throughout the world people will continue to kill and die for their particular brand of belief.
Refusing to allow discussion of that fact is, as I have said, persecution in itself.
Stop manipulating threads and censoring discussion and stop using this forum as your own personal possession to soapbox your bigotry and intolerance.
You don't want to discuss persecution by Christians, fine, we'll come to our own conclusions about your motives for refusing to do so and let know what we come up with, if that's all right by you!!!
Hard not to notice that discussing persecution by Christians only became a problem when you painted yourself into yet another corner
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 07:44 AM

I make no special case, except for the kind of persecution I hoped this to be about.
The kind of persecution that drives whole communities to extinction by murder and torture and terror.

The lesser kinds of persecution you are demanding to include have been discussed on many other threads.

This is the only thread of its kind.
Why can you not reopen an existing thread or start a new one?

Because your agenda is the prevention of this discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Elmore
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 09:28 AM

Never mind the hijacking of the thread. Think about killing the thread. the topic, "Christian Persecution", (whatever that means) may be important, but the the thread itself is not sacrosanct, and has been around long enough to beat a herd of dead horses. Give it a decent burial.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: bobad
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 09:36 AM

Elmore, why don't you create your own forum then you can have control over whatever topic you would like to see discussed and can end those you no longer wish to see.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 09:36 AM

Can't decide whether to offer it a Christian burial or not.

The children in an Islamic School in Nigeria the other year weren't given a choice. They were cut up and fed to pigs.

I would have mentioned them before but Keith insists this is about Christians being persecuted rather than persecuting.

You see, if you insist on identifying victims by religious tag, you have to be comfortable with identifying perpetrators by religious tags too. Identifying them by the reason they are being persecuted rather than the excuse why leads to far better clarity.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 09:53 AM

I would have mentioned them before but Keith insists this is about Christians being persecuted rather than persecuting.

I have said exactly the opposite.
I welcome any discussion of extreme persecution.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 10:04 AM

I can not find any report of an incident like the one you described Musket.
This one perhaps?

The so-called Yelwa massacre was actually a series of related incidents of mass violence between Muslims and Christians which took place in Yelwa, Nigeria between February and May 2004 killing over 700 people.[1] The first incident in the series occurred on 4 February 2004 when armed Muslims attacked the Christians of Yelwa killing more than 78 Christians including at least 48 who were worshipping inside a church compound.[1] According to some sources, the signal for the attack was a call for Jihad from the local mosque.[2]
The February killings inflamed tensions between the communities which had simmered since the 2001 Jos riots when conflict between Muslims and Christians resulted in 1,000 dead. On 2 May 2004 local Christians responded to the February incident by attacking Muslims in Yelwa resulting in roughly 630 dead.[1] According to some sources, Muslim girls were forced to eat pork and other foods forbidden to Muslims and some were even raped.[2]

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Elmore
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 10:48 AM

Good morning Bobad. I have the right to express myself here,even if it meets with your disapproval. Only a fool would deny that persecution of and by Christians is evil. However, it feels to me that this(almost) three year discussion has become counterproductive. Perhaps I'm being contrary by attacking the thread and contributing (?) to it.Regards, Elmore.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Elmore
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 11:01 AM

So Keith claims to be concerned about all forms of persecution. A few miles from me, in North Carolina people who call themselves Christians are doing everything possible to suppress voting by black citizens. This is a right people fought and died for. Is that severe enough? Why don't we kick that around for a while?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 11:19 AM

I will join you in deploring that if true, but not here.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 11:32 AM

"Why can you not reopen an existing thread or start a new one?"
Why should we - you've taken over enough threads about the killing of soldiers, or the persecution of Muslims and turned them into Islamaphobic diatribes
If we can't discuss the reasons for religious persecution in its full context, what on earth do you expect to get out of a discussion like this other than to make it another round in your Muslim bashing campaign?
Nobody is denying that Christians are being persecuted, you seem to be avoiding that fact that this persecution is part of amillenia old religious war in which nobody comes out with clean hands.
That Christians are getting the shitty end of the stick at present, doesn't main that they haven't done the same in the past and to a lesser extent are still doing it, sometimes to extreme excess (isn't the systematic rape of children extreme enough for you?)
Religion brings with it the high risk, probability even, of persecution.
Unless that fact is discussed and fully recognised that risk/probability will remain.
You have never been backward in pointing out the failings and excesses of others in order to defend your particular flavour-of-the-month - Israeli terrorism is ok because others do it, it's ok for Britain to sell arms and chemical weapons to human rights abusers because everybody does it.....
Surely the root causes are infinitely more important than individual cases (unless you happen to have a particular agenda - perish the thought!!)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 11:50 AM

"You could start a thread.
You don't because you seek to destroy this one.
You do not want its subject to be discussed so you get together and swamp it with other issues."

Wrong as usual!

The attitudes and petty discriminations of the Christian religions are pertinent inasmuch as they go some way toward explaining just why Muslims and many others dislike them so much.

You can't simply assume that persecution happens without reasons. The roots of such are inextricably bound up in past and present actions.

I would also remind Bobad that Jesus was a Jew, just in case he has forgotten, who lived in a country where Jews, Arabs and even Romans lived fairly peacefully side by side.

If the church which was set up in his name by people who never knew him had taken in his ideas and followed them, the Middle East would now be a haven of peace and tranquility.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 11:54 AM

Fascinating discussion here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_violence
Jim Carroll
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_violence
By the way – there is little doubt that this subject is being used as an Islamophobic rant at present – little Boo-boo has provided to enormous cut-'n-pastes from openly Islamophobic fascist sites and Keith has said he has no doubt that all the facts provided (from these openly Islamophobic fascist sites) are true.
So there you go.... long spoons when dining with the Devil and all that

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 12:32 PM

Jim, I challenged you to identify a single incident that was not true.
All the ones I checked were, and I remembered many more.
I do not think the list was untrue, whoever published it.

Troubadore you seem to be saying that the Christians may deserve to be massacred and driven out of their ancestral homes.
Is that right?
And you were kidding about Jews, Arabs and even Romans lived fairly peacefully side by side, right?

Jim.
you seem to be avoiding that fact that this persecution is part of a millenia old religious war in which nobody comes out with clean hands.
No.
Christian communities are disappearing now after two thousand years of coexistence.
That is happening to no-one else, though it already happened to many Jewish communities.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Elmore
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 01:51 PM

Once again this thread has seduced me. I'm not sure why. I was about to launch into a diatribe about The Catholic Church's role in disturbing the peace between the Muslims and Jews in 15th century Spain, but thankfully realized it was pointless to do so. So, I'm out of here. I know I'll be missed. (not!) Nobody bullied me out. Those with whom I agree are far more eloquent than I. Regards, Elmore.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 02:43 PM

"Jim, I challenged you to identify a single incident that was not true."
And I defy you to prove that all of the many hundreds he put up that are true - you gave all of them your unqualified support - prove it.
"I do not think the list was untrue, whoever published it."
If any censorship is necessary on forums like this it is that which gives credence to extremist fascist groups such as the ones you are supporting here - these are self-declared and extremely (no accident in using that word) Islamophobic sites and would be illegal in the governable world.
Boo-boo has used White Power sites before now in his Islamophobic crusade
"Christian communities are disappearing now after two thousand years of coexistence."
Age old religions, some far older than Christianity, disappeared without trace under the British Empire - that's exactly what one religion does to the others when it has any say in the matter - goes with the territory.
As late as my schooldays we were still singing hymns claiming that to belong to religions other than Christianity was to be "in error's chain".
Wars were/are still fought "with God on our side".
"though it already happened to many Jewish communities."
And Israelis are driving out Palestinians to make room for Jewish settlements - and oppressing, starving and killing people in ordoer to do so - that's exactly what one religion does to the others when it has any say in the matter - goes with the territory.
Israel is now being described, by Jews and non-Jews alike, as "the Apartheid State"
"Troubadore you seem to be saying that the Christians may deserve to be massacred and driven out of their ancestral homes."
He/she is saying no such thing - just pointing out the tit-for-tat nature of all religions - that's how I read it anyway.
You are the only one supporting religious intolerance and persecution here by attempting to suppress and censor discussion on Christian behaviour towards believers and non-believers alike.
Any chance of your stopping deliberately misrepresenting other people's arguments just for a short time at least - c'mon, It's nearly Christmas - season of goodwill to all men.
"I know I'll be missed. (not!)"
I'll miss you Elmore, for the breath of fresh air if nothing else.
If your decision is irreversible - have a good Christmas.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 03:12 PM

By the way - just for the record, the cases from Boo-boo's extremist
information list give little, if any evidence that the vast majority of them were "religious persecution" incidents and not just involving Christians who were living in Muslim countries - there is no evidence whatever that these were crimes of "Christian persecution".
If I, an atheist, was attacked by a crowd of thugs who happened to be Christians, would that be Christian persecution.
Want to look up how many crimes against blacks by white criminals have ben rejected as "racist" by the police
So if you have other information - please present it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 05:41 PM

By the way - just for the record, the cases from Boo-boo's extremist
information list give little, if any evidence that the vast majority of them were "religious persecution" incidents and not just involving Christians who were living in Muslim countries - there is no evidence whatever that these were crimes of "Christian persecution".

That is bollocks Jim.
The fact is that you were completely unable to find one single item on that list that was not true.
Neither was I.

I now challenge you to find one item on that list that was not a crime of persecution of Christians.

You just spout shit and bollocks.
Go on.
Find one item on that list that is not what is claimed.
I will ask you for your progress in two days and then in seven days.
Or, just admit now that you are just spouting shit and bollocks.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: ollaimh
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 10:03 PM

sweet jesus, I pray on my knees, please persecute the Christians, they are destroying the world, lord save us from Christians!

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 04:05 AM

It is not my job to find anything to be untrue - particularly from a fascist website - it is the job of the sicko who supports such organisations by spreading their propaganda to validate their/his claims.
You claim to have known about the incidents - give us your information.
The claims are vague to say the least and virtually untraceable - there is not a shred of evidence to make them 'crimes of persecution - if they took place at all.
You want to spread this garbage - you validate it.
I said that there was a danger of opening this forum up to racist and sectarian bigots :
"If any censorship is necessary on forums like this it is that which gives credence to extremist fascist groups such as the ones you are supporting here - these are self-declared and extremely (no accident in using that word) Islamophobic sites and would be illegal in the governable world."
That is exactly what you and Boo-boo have done here by presenting openly Islamophobic propaganda from a site that does not pretend to do anything else.
I remember it being claimed at the time of fall of the Shah that there was a danger of the world entering into a holy war - that is exactly what has happened, not just by fanatical Muslims, but by Christians and by the Israeli regime, all desperately fighting for the souls of humanity and going to extremist lengths to do so.
You have made this forum part of that war with your partisan support for Israel and your virulent hatred of all Muslims (with their "cultural implants").
Prove your fascist garbage or leave it in the sewer it rightly came from.
Stop making this forum a cultural hate site.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 04:15 AM

So you give up straight away.
I can produce as many as you like from that list that is a true example of persecution.
Jim Carrol, despite raising the issue and making accusations, CAN NOT FIND A SINGLE ONE.

Good job Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 04:39 AM

"Troubadore you seem to be saying that the Christians may deserve to be massacred and driven out of their ancestral homes.
Is that right?
And you were kidding about Jews, Arabs and even Romans lived fairly peacefully side by side, right?"

I am saying nothing of the sort, idiot. If the only way you can answer is by misinterpreting and challenging the misinterpretation, you ain't worth the bother of a response.

I said that animosity leads to persecution and animosity stems from past and present actions

That isn't an endorsement, it's an explanation and it applies to all who persecute or are persecuted, which makes Jim's comments about persecution (however minor) germane to the topic which you only wished to restrict after your premise was challenge.

As to Palestine around the time that Jesus would have lived, it was analagous to the latter years of British rule in India, with Herod ruling under Roman guidance and the majority living quite peacefully.

And I don't recall any occasion when Jesus is purported to have advocated burning Jews and Muslims. Do you?

Final point. You don't come across as very smart if you can't spell a name that is in full view as you write.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 05:24 AM

"1st century BCE, the Herodian Kingdom was established as a Roman client kingdom and then in 6 CE parts became a province of the Roman Empire.[1]
Judea province was the scene of unrest at its founding during the Census of Quirinius and several wars were fought in its history, known as the Jewish-Roman wars. The Temple was destroyed in 70 as part of the Great Jewish Revolt"

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 05:33 AM

And I don't recall any occasion when Jesus is purported to have advocated burning Jews and Muslims. Do you?

Er, no.
But as you say, I am not very bright.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 05:36 AM

Musket.
The children in an Islamic School in Nigeria the other year weren't given a choice. They were cut up and fed to pigs.

Imagined or made up?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 05:40 AM

"So you give up straight away"
If some self-declared fascist produces a list of unqualified 'facts' in order to peddle their garbage it is up them to prove their 'facts' not for the rest of us to disprove it.
They have produced the list Boo-boo has presented it here, you support it - you prove it - it is not my job to wade though your Islamophobic garbage do disprove anything you and your little cabal of fascists put up.
How can anybody prove lies are lies if there is no information baccking them up
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 05:46 AM

If some self-declared fascist produces a list of unqualified 'facts' in order to peddle their garbage it is up them to prove their 'facts' not for the rest of us to disprove it.

How can we?
All we can do is point to examples that are true.
I have checked through many and also remember many of the incidents.

What is your challenge Jim?
If you can not find one single false example, you have no case.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: bobad
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 11:36 AM

"If some self-declared fascist produces a list of unqualified 'facts' in order to peddle their garbage it is up them to prove their 'facts' not for the rest of us to disprove it."

This from a Jew hating, Islamist apologist, and he labels others as fascists - hah!

But at least he is nothing but consistent in his name calling and smearing when faced with indisputable facts that put to lie to his claims.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 11:56 AM

Yeah, the BBC makes all of it up.

Except the list of historians it can afford to write for it, apparently

zzzzzzzzz


You'll be telling me Blackadder was made up shit next.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 01:41 PM

All we can do is point to examples that are true.
I have checked through many and also remember many of the incidents.
Simmple then - prove them - give i#us you evidence of the many of them - both that they actually exist and that they are 'religious crimes - I doubt if there's anybody who will take your word for anything nowadays
My "challenge" is that if they exist as actual events at all, there is no evidence that any of them are religiously motivated.
We are now exactly where we have always needed to be - you presenting 'facts' from an ultra-right website and demanding that we accept them without proof.
They are fascist propaganda - they come with no proof and they come from you and your little friend.
I assume you are a fully paid up member of the BNP -or is your card still in the post.
Thanks Keith - couldn't wish for a better Christmas present.
Seig heil and all that
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 02:08 PM

Musket, I watch and listen to and read BBC, and I would have remembered that, but I don't.
You either imagined it or made it up.

Such a story would be easy to Google, but it doesn't work for me.
You try.

Jim, you yourself must remember many of those incidents.
What was the justification for your challenge?
You obviously can not find a false one or you would be crowing about it.
It is just yet more deceit from Jim Carrol.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 02:42 AM

BBC today.
Prince Charles said he felt deeply troubled by the plight of Christians.

"For 20 years I have tried to build bridges between Islam and Christianity to dispel ignorance and misunderstanding," he told the audience.

"The point though, surely, is that we have now reached a crisis where bridges are rapidly being deliberately destroyed by those with a vested interest in doing so.

"This is achieved through intimidation, false accusation and organised persecution including to the Christian communities in the Middle East at the present time."

The Coptic Church traces its origins back to the 1st Century when it was founded by the apostle St Mark.

The Syrian Orthodox Church says it was established by St Peter who became its first bishop.

Christians living in the Middle East have often had a wary relationship with their Muslim neighbours.

The Arab Spring though has led to an upsurge in violence with many Christians fleeing the region to avoid attack.

In Egypt, violence against the Copts increased after the military overthrow of Muslim Brotherhood President Mohammed Morsi.

Hundreds of church properties, homes and businesses were attacked and looted.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 03:00 AM

More than 70 Christians reported killed at instigation of terror group Boko Haram. 900 Christians murdered in past year. Release launches Christmas appeal Help the Wounded. Radio report available here.



There have been further attacks against Christians in Nigeria. Raiders killed 37 Christians in the central Plateau State on Tuesday. A further 34 have been killed in Borno State in the north-east in the past month.

Church leaders say the attacks in the north were carried out directly by Islamist terror group Boko Haram, while those in central Nigeria were carried out at their instigation.

Press reports say Boko Haram have forced 8,000 Christians to flee, and many who remain are no longer able to worship in public. According to the US-based Hudson Institute Boko Haram has killed at least 900 Christians in the past year. Their stated aim is to impose fundamentalist Islamic law in Nigeria.
http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/59567

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 03:11 AM

Hansard last week
That this House is concerned that the persecution of Christians is increasing in the 21st Century; notes that there are reports that one Christian is killed every 11 minutes somewhere on earth for their faith; further notes that Christianity is the most persecuted religion globally; bears in mind that the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion is a human right stated in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights; and calls on the Government to do more both in its foreign policy and through its aid work to defend and support people of Christian faith.

It is a pleasure to bring this matter forward for consideration. The number of Members in the Chamber is an indication of the level of interest, and I look forward to outlining some of the issues.

I believe that the persecution of Christians is the biggest story in the world that has never been told, and its importance cannot be underlined enough. The subject burdens me, and many other Members, judging by the number here.

Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con): It is greatly to the credit of the Democratic Unionist party that it has secured this debate. Let us be honest: if this were happening to almost any other religious group it would be something of a national scandal. That makes it all the more important to put the ongoing persecution of Christians in many parts of the world on the political map. This debate will do that in the next two and three quarter hours.
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201314/cmhansrd/cm131203/debtext/131203-0003.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 04:03 AM

Aye.. The DUP... Nice to see the experts get to have a say in how to persecute fellow Christians . They'll be walking on The Queen's pavement next......

Hey bobad! When you speak of an apologist for Islam, what does Islam need to apologise for in your view?

Just wondering....

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 04:05 AM

Musket.
"The children in an Islamic School in Nigeria the other year weren't given a choice. They were cut up and fed to pigs"

Imagined or made up?
Fantasy or lie?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: bobad
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 08:17 AM

"Hey bobad! When you speak of an apologist for Islam,"

Musket, please reread for comprehension, thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 09:05 AM

"Islamist apologist,"
They have much to be apologised for.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 10:18 AM

"Jim, you yourself must remember many of those incidents."
Where is your evidence that they all - or even half or a quarter of them took place?
Where is your evidence that they were 'religious' attacks and not just attacks on people who happened to belong to a certain religion?
Nobody is denying that Christians are being persecuted - you, on the other hand, have attempted to play down and dismiss crimes of persecution by Christian churches on it's own and other believers - even to the extent of trying to prevent discussion on that fact.
This shit comes from an extremist hate site - you have given it your wholehearted support and demanded that we follow your line in swallowing it wholesale without proof.
You have now made yourself an open part of the hate machine - do not use Mudcat as your mouthpiece.
You want to go through this diatribe of hate article by article and show us which are true - feel free- it should keep you occupied from now to MacColl's 100th in 2015 - it will certainly slow your 'hate' gallop down considerably
It will also underline your dedication to hate-sites - always handy to know where the dog has shat before you put your foot down!
You appear to be single-handedly polluting an excellent forum with your diatribes of hate (don't really count Boo-boo, whose feet in morth make him little to a Laurel to your Hardy, good for light amusement and little more)
There has to come a time when the administrators of this site put a stop to your outpourings of hate and bigotry - it really is getting out of hand.
The sooner it happens, the cleaner the air.
Now - your proof, and please stop insulting our intelligence with your rantings
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 11:49 AM

I can find nothing but genuine cases.
Can you find ONE SINGLE non-genuine case?
No.
So what is your point?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Dec 13 - 02:57 AM

Musket.

The children in an Islamic School in Nigeria the other year weren't given a choice. They were cut up and fed to pigs.

A genuine trick of the memory, or another blatant lie.

Which is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 19 Dec 13 - 04:32 AM

Keith. When you said "they" with regard to Islam and having much to apologise for...

Were you saying that as a Christian? How much have Christians to apologise for?

Come to think of it, should I ring a Muslim friend or two and ask them to apologise for foreigners in land grab and power struggles?

Hang on. Just looked down the corridor. Can't see any. They must all be out on wards, theatres and clinics caring for patients.

The Nigeria example I gave is of course interesting. It happened in the south of the country, yet the opposite has, with slightly different detail, happened in the North where the Christians are the minority.

You see, it isn't about Jesus or The Prophet, it's about preventing the sizeable minority becoming the majority.

As ever.

Debasing faith and using it for more material means.

Perpetuated by fools who try to shoehorn religion into it, hence playing straight into the hands of the oppressors.

Nice one Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Dec 13 - 05:34 AM

Keith. When you said "they" with regard to Islam and having much to apologise for.

But nobody did say that, so what is your point?

If your "incident" happened in any part of Nigeria, there would be reports.
There are none.
Funny that.
It is as if you made it up.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Dec 13 - 05:48 AM

"Can you find ONE SINGLE non-genuine case?"
If you want to validate a fascist site it's up to you to prove their/your 'facts' - not me to prove otherwise.
Personally I wouldn't touch heir information with a bargepole - fasict propaganda is just what it says on the label
For someone who is attempting to rewrite history of 'facts' supplied by so-called military historians and rejecting the evidence of established historians - you're not doing too well in providing any here.
Have a good Nuremberg Rally - seig heil again
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Dec 13 - 06:02 AM

I can find nothing but genuine cases.
Can you find ONE SINGLE non-genuine case?
No.
So what is your point?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 19 Dec 13 - 06:42 AM

"Church leaders say the attacks in the north were carried out directly by Islamist terror group Boko Haram, while those in central Nigeria were carried out at their instigation.

Press reports say Boko Haram have forced 8,000 Christians to flee, and many who remain are no longer able to worship in public. According to the US-based Hudson Institute Boko Haram has killed at least 900 Christians in the past year. Their stated aim is to impose fundamentalist Islamic law in Nigeria."

There's a world of ambiguity in that report.

Boko Haram are dedicated to removing non Muslims, and the non Muslims in those areas happen to be Christian. If they were Buddists, Hindu, Sikh or Shinto, they would be the victims and there would have been no thread from you decrying it.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 19 Dec 13 - 06:58 AM

"Islamist apologist,"
They have much to be apologised for." K A of H

"Keith. When you said "they" with regard to Islam and having much to apologise for." Musket

"But nobody did say that, so what is your point?" K A of H (Alias Nobody!)

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Dec 13 - 07:07 AM

Do I need to educate you both on the difference between Islam and Islamism, Muslims and Islamists?

You are a very ignorant person.
You are so stupid you actually make me look good.
Nice job.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Dec 13 - 07:37 AM

We know there have been attacks by Christians reported in News programs, but when you look for them online, you are given reams of comment for the other side.

Nobody is interested in Muslims killed, so no change there.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Dec 13 - 07:46 AM

Can you give an example of such an event?
No.
If you heard about them on the News programmes they will be on the websites of those programmes.
I think your memory is playing tricks.
You can't even remember your name.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: bobad
Date: 19 Dec 13 - 08:03 AM

Carroll, if you're going to start with your "seig [sic] heils" you best get the spelling right lest you embarrass your fellow travelers.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Dec 13 - 08:10 AM

And Jim,
someone who is attempting to rewrite history of 'facts' supplied by so-called military historians and rejecting the evidence of established historians

If you can name one such "established historian" I have rejected, please post it on the armistice site, where I have been requesting that information for weeks.

I say you are lying about that as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: bobad
Date: 19 Dec 13 - 08:10 AM

"Do I need to educate you both on the difference between Islam and Islamism, Muslims and Islamists?"

They are either too thick to get it or it's one and the same to them, which would explain much.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Dec 13 - 09:27 AM

"It's a subject that has become ever more urgent this year with violence against Christians in Syria, where Islamists have been engaged in 'religious cleansing', and in Egypt, which saw the worst anti-Christian violence in centuries.

Over the weekend the leading Catholic in Iraq, Patriarch Louis Sako, was in Rome where he lamented the west's apathy, after a decade in which 1,000 Iraqi Christians have been murdered, over 60 churches bombed, and a pre-war population of one million reduced to 200,000 at most.

He said: 'We feel forgotten and isolated. We sometimes wonder, if they kill us all, what would be the reaction of Christians in the West? Would they do something then?'"

"For those who make no effort to press for religious freedom and security in the Middle East, because they are scared of appearing Islamophobic, how do you think history will judge that excuse?"
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/edwest/2013/12/if-they-kill-us-all-what-would-be-the-reaction-of-christians-in-the-west/

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Dec 13 - 10:06 AM

This is the source of your "genuine cases" - which you refuse to corroborate
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
And this is description of the site itself
"http://www.loonwatch.com/tag/the-religion-of-peace/"
I've told you why We can't believe them - you gives a reason why we should
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 19 Dec 13 - 12:15 PM

Getting a bit desperate aren't we? "Err.. I didn't say Islam, I said Islamism, which is sooo fucking different, I'm going to point and laugh at you for being thick!"

Go on then, either you or your best mate bobad. Tell us what you think is the difference and why the difference is important in Keith's smear of a good few million people.

I like it when Keith finds a fellow fool. It eggs him on to reveal even more of his arse. You could do a double act. Come to think of it, bobad said it first and then back pedalled when I challenged him, screaming about context. I got the context alright, hence my question.

Keith on the other hand can't back pedal because his chain fell off in his first post.



I didn't say pig ignorant, I said pigignorant, which is of course an entirely different thing.

You two pair of clowns should cut and paste your withering diatribe and stick it in the pedantry thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Dec 13 - 01:00 PM

Jim, I have no reasons why you should believe this list or anything else.
That is why I checked it myself.
It checks out.
Sorry, but it does, and I know you have also checked.
It hardly matters where it came from if it is true.
Neither of us can find a single fault with it, so what is your objection?

Musket, Islam and Islamism are indeed "sooooo fucking different."
You are indeed an ignorant twat.
And you accuse me of trying to make you look a twat!
No need to try.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Dec 13 - 01:16 PM

The more you repeat your claim to have "checked it out yourself", the more stupidly obvious your Islamophobic tirade becomes.
If you have "checked it out yourself", convince us that you are not lying - evidence is the best policy - as they say.
You have the pedigree of your source of information - we have your history of telling porkies
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Dec 13 - 02:56 PM

What proof do you want Jim.
I remembered a few and googled a few.
If you had managed to find a false entry you would tell us.
I couldn't either.
It seems to be accurate.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Dec 13 - 03:06 PM

I remembered a few and googled a few.

Righto- your demonstrably faulty memory plus "I read it on the internet, it must be true".

Pitiful.

But not unexpected.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: bobad
Date: 19 Dec 13 - 03:11 PM

"bobad said it first and then back pedalled when I challenged him, screaming about context. I got the context alright, hence my question."

Huh? WTF are you talking about? I never did any such thing, I think you are rather confused - which is no revelation AFAICS.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Dec 13 - 04:23 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Dec 13 - 07:31 PM

Greg, even you must remember some of those incidents.
I googled a few I did not remember, and found them reported.
That's how I knew they were true.
What would you do Greg?
Have YOU found any non-genuine incidents from the list?
Any at all?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 20 Dec 13 - 03:24 AM

At least three of my posts didn't reach the mud server and I can't be arsed to repeat them.

Suffice to say that they basically made points that made Keith A Hole of Hertford look a fool and reminded bobad to look at his posts before claiming innocence.

Got some reality to deal with now.

Tatty bye.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Dec 13 - 04:13 AM

Did they have an admission that you made up the story about the Islamic school, and an apology for it?
Did they say that you have now looked up the difference between Islam and Islamism, and apologise for your ignorance?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: bobad
Date: 20 Dec 13 - 08:13 AM

So, I see that Musket has taken a page out of his buddy's playbook and is resorting to making shit up when he runs out of ammunition. Time to fall back and rearm with some facts boys.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 20 Dec 13 - 09:15 AM

Aye. Waffling on about Christians and arming yourself with facts.

Whatever floats your boat I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 20 Dec 13 - 10:34 AM

Christian persecution.

Uganda has passed a law making it illegal to be gay, and it will be a crime not to report gays to the police. In saying Uganda is a God fearing country, the MP who proposed the private members bill admitted his cause was funded by American Christian groups who has urged them to consider the death sentence.

Just thought I'd mention it before Keith A Hole of Hertford refers to it as made up shit.

Christianity, Christianism, Christians. Anything to add from pedant corner?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Dec 13 - 01:43 AM

There is a vital distinction between Islam and Islamism.
Calling it pedantry emphasises your profound ignorance of the subject.

The "made up shit" comment referred to the story you told about the Nigerian Islamic school.
It never happened.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 21 Dec 13 - 02:14 AM

Now you are managing to pretend you are a revisionist historian yourself.

By the way, if my interpretation of the two words is a bit too simplistic for you, that's a sign of your problem not mine. Saying I make shit up and don't understand words I use is just another way of saying you have made an arse if yourself yet again and trying to deflect the embarrassment.

Well done.

Prat


Only 24 hours to church. Ironed your blazer yet? Don't forget to give thanks for doing the Lord's work on this thread. You are working tirelessly to demonstrate the specialness and superiority of Christianity and should be proud of yourself.

Superfluous comment I suppose. I reckon you are proud of yourself. Don't forget to say a prayer for the new victims of Christian persecution in Uganda. The perpetrators have enough Christians praying for them.

Ironically, most of the victims are Christians too but are being persecuted in the name of Christianity. Anyone would think this persecution lark was more to do with majority persecuting minority rather than choosing imaginary friends.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Dec 13 - 05:39 AM

if my interpretation of the two words is a bit too simplistic for you,
Much more crass than that!
You equated them!
That is indeed a demonstration of profound ignorance.

Your story about the school was shit and you made it up.
It is made up shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 21 Dec 13 - 10:15 AM

They do equate, you fool, in the context given.

Clapton wept....

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Dec 13 - 10:23 AM

They do not equate in any context you pig-ignorant twat.

The Christian groups in America bank rolling the Ugandan politicians to make being gay criminal
That is very concerning.
Please give some details as I can not find any reference to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 21 Dec 13 - 12:15 PM

Ok, get a shovel in your brain, clear a little pigshit and learn.

Islamism is a term used generally to denote and acknowledge that Islam is a far more general guide to life than just the faith and moral structures. It is a term to recognise that for many followers, nothing makes sense unless Islamic values underpin politics and all functions of society.

In some countries this is almost fully realised whilst in others, such as here , Islamism denotes a more personal and family interpretation of Islam.

If you google , I am sure you might find it describing orthodoxy or militant tendency. I wouldn't know as I happen to have enough intelligence to know a smattering of things without having to look things up.

You must be a slow companion on the pub. " What do you reckon Keith ?" " Hang on, I don't know till I read an opinion for me and see if anyone on the interwebby thing concurs !"

As I said. In the context given, the terms were interchangeable.

Gormless cunt

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 21 Dec 13 - 12:23 PM

"They are either too thick to get it or it's one and the same to them, which would explain much."

One look at your comments re the Gaza strip wil show jst WHO doesn't know the difference. Likewise K A of H.

They're all Islamists to you two.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: bobad
Date: 21 Dec 13 - 01:31 PM

There you have it, QED.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Dec 13 - 02:54 PM

I wouldn't know as I happen to have enough intelligence to know a smattering of things without having to look things up.

Er, no you don't.
You only think you do.
Because you never check your facts, you live in a fool's paradise, thinking you know everything while everyone laughs at your stupid bloopers.
Look it up and see why we are laughing at you.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 03:03 AM

Guardian today.
Persecution of Christians in the Middle East is a crime against humanity
Prince Charles's warning was not scaremongering. Calamity, accelerated by the Iraq war, has been brewing a long time
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2013/dec/22/persecution-christians-middle-east-prince-charles

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 04:27 AM

Who are "we"?

Would "we" be those like yourself who come over as what Americans call neocons?

In which case, I'd be disturbed if you did agree with me.

I realise the UKIP handbook uses the awful false bit of tautology called Islamism in the way you suggest, but try taking your lead from The Council of Mosques who are a bit pissed off to be honest about their faith being bastardised for hate reasons.

A bit like how decent Christians bristle when I point out that clerical abuse and arranging the altar flowers is a matter of degree by the same logic.

You are using the word Christian in order to demonise other religions. So are the less savoury elements of western media and politics. Forgive me for not wanting to play such a dangerous vindictive game.

I hope you can live with yourself

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 04:35 AM


I realise the UKIP handbook uses the awful false bit of tautology called Islamism in the way you suggest,

Er, no.
Everyone does (including Troubadour in last post).
It is the correct usage.

"We" is everyone else who knows the correct meaning and usage, and enjoys watching you make an arse of yourself in your total ignorance of it.
Really, do yourself a favour.
Look it up.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 04:56 AM

You could start by reading this Muslim's comparison.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-david-liepert/islamists_b_3984841.html

"The religion of Islam, the Faith of Abraham as proclaimed by Muhammad -- peace be upon them both -- is all about relationships: our relationship with our Creator who made everything informing the way we relate to everything. Muslims are God's servants, tasked to live our lives for the sake of you all.

So how does the so-called Islamist world-view, one that puts promoting Islam (and generally, one specific sort of Islamic ideology alone) ahead of egalitarian justice, or freedom, or sometimes human life itself -- one that's shared by those misguided criminals behind the killing of innocent Christians in Pakistan, innocent Muslims in the Middle East, innocent believers of every faith anywhere, innocent shoppers in Kenya, for God's sake! -- make any sense, from an Islamic perspective?

It doesn't.

I've read a vast array of definitions for what "Islamist" really means, just as I've read a vast array of ideological descriptions for every group of Muslims currently killing each other (and others too, compounding the tragedy) over who should be in charge of our beliefs and real estate. And while each group believes they're fundamentally different, I think they're really the same, and fundamentally opposed to the Islam proclaimed by Muhammad.

Islamists -- no matter whether they belong to al-Qaeda, the Taliban, Iran's Ulema and Republican Guard, Egypt's Army, or the Muslim Brotherhood or any other Muslim group with aggressive political aspirations -- want to be in charge, and they think that when they are then their own version of Islam must be imposed. Muhammad -- on the other hand -- didn't think he was in charge (because he knew God was) and he lived his life as a leader of equals."

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 10:15 AM

Er, no. Everyone does .

Like "All Historians" do, eh? Bollocks.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 10:48 AM

As ever, it accords with the description I gave. It also accepts the bastardisation of the term.

What's your point prat?

I know you have issues with people who debate without needing to google every last fucking word they use, but to be frank I'm bored with coming down to your level. If you have a brain, apply it rather than spending your life researching odd bits out of context to make you look clever. Intelligent people use terms due to knowing and understanding them. You read a version of what is a tautological misnomer and wave it like a spoilt child.

Is murdering doctors who carry out abortions Christianism then?

Twat.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 10:54 AM

Merry Christmas everyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 11:12 AM

"Is murdering doctors who carry out abortions Christianism then?" asks Musket disingenuously.

Well, actually on the perfectly reasonable analogy of

Oxford Dictionary --
Definition of Islamism in English
Islamism
Pronunciation: /ˈɪzləmɪz(ə)m, ˈɪs-/
(also Islamicism)
noun
[mass noun]
    Islamic militancy or fundamentalism.

it would appear to be a most useful coinage, if not already so used - which it would not do to be too sure of.

Good thinking, Ian. You shall have a housepoint!

Merry Xmas to you both ~~ & indeed to all,

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 11:23 AM

Note also that, unlike, admittedly, some of the other dictionaries, the Oxford gives only that sole definition, & does not define it as synonymous also with simple 'Islam": to which extent accusations of tautologousness are mal-apropos.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Elmore
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 03:17 PM

Horse walks into a bar, orders a beer. Bartender says "Why the long face?"

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Dec 13 - 01:28 AM

So Muppet, why did you equate Islam and Islamism?
In what "context" are they the same?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Dec 13 - 01:51 AM

Guardian today.
"Persecution of Christians: no room at the inn

That the message of peace and goodwill is not a political reality for a significant minority of the world's Christians should concern religious and non-religious alike
Last week, the Prince of Wales was joined by Prince Ghazi of Jordan on a visit to the Egyptian Coptic church in Stevenage and the Syriac Orthodox Cathedral in west London, where he heard from a number of Christian families who have had first-hand experience of the rising tide of persecution. "We cannot ignore the fact that Christians in the Middle East are, increasingly, being deliberately attacked by fundamentalist Islamist militants," he said. "The Arab spring [is] rapidly turning into a Christian winter" was how the author William Dalrymple put it on the BBC last week."

" In Egypt alone, Amnesty International has reported that during this past year 207 churches have been attacked and 43 Orthodox churches totally destroyed. And the situation of Christians in Syria is deteriorating rapidly as the Free Syrian Army has become increasingly influenced by foreign jihadist militants. Many thousands of Syrian Christians are now fleeing over the border to Turkey. One man who made the journey from Syria claimed: "Where we live, 10 churches have been burned down. They started to threaten Christians in the town we live. When the local priest was executed, we decided to leave."

All this is a part of a wider picture in which Christians are being increasingly forced out of the biblical homelands. Indeed, across a vast swath of the world between Morocco and Pakistan, the persecution of Christians continues to gather pace, frequently with barely a eyebrow raised in the secular west."
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/dec/23/persecution-christians-religion-editorial

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 24 Dec 13 - 02:37 AM

A long way up the thread, I said that one is, the other is of. I also said that in common usage, it has been bastardised as a negative term. OED does only refer to the negative usage, which is unfortunate. However , clinging to it doesn't change anything. Only Michael and the arts editor for BBC Radio 4 use it as their sole style guide. You may find a few million Muslims for instance who not only speak English but would see the term as meaning of Islamic values / origin / faith / culture etc.

As for Keith A Hole of Hertford, who gets what used to be a stiffy when his gormless comments are tenuously supported, I don't expect any better to be frank.

You should get out more. Islamism in the negative sense is a rather insulting term. Hence Christianism is an equally insulting term to describe lowlife scum who hide under a cloak of clerical respect to carry out their evil deeds.



Oh hang on. I can hear squeals and oinks. Might as well shut up and smile.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Dec 13 - 07:44 AM

Failing to distinguish between Islam and Islamism is what Islamophobes do.
Bobad and I were clear about the distinction.
The Muppet regarded them as interchangeable, but probably out of ignorance rather than Islamophobia.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Dec 13 - 07:49 AM

From: GUEST,Musket - PM
Date: 19 Dec 13 - 12:15 PM

Getting a bit desperate aren't we? "Err.. I didn't say Islam, I said Islamism, which is sooo fucking different, I'm going to point and laugh at you for being thick!"

Go on then, either you or your best mate bobad. Tell us what you think is the difference and why the difference is important in Keith's smear of a good few million people.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Dec 13 - 07:54 AM

OED is not my 'sole style guide', as it happens, Musk: indeed, I greatly prefer Chambers for day-to-day use & crossword solving. But it would be idle to deny that the Oxford is widely recognised as an arbiter as to usage.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: bobad
Date: 25 Dec 13 - 12:01 PM

"Militants in Iraq targeted Christians in two separate bomb attacks in Baghdad on Wednesday, killing at least 37 people, officials said.

In one attack, a car bomb went off near a church during Christmas Mass in the capital's southern Dora neighbourhood, killing at least 26 people and wounding 38, a police officer said.

Earlier in the day, a bomb ripped through an outdoor market in the nearby Christian section of Athorien, killing 11 people and wounding 21, the officer added.

There was no immediate claim of responsibility for the attacks, but Iraq's dwindling Christian community, which is estimated to number about 400,000 to 600,000 people, has often been targeted by al-Qaeda and other insurgents."

CBC

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 25 Dec 13 - 12:46 PM

I seem to have got what I asked Santa for.

Keith A Hole of Hertford has come to his senses and even started reprinting my posts to reiterate my point.

Hey hey !

Merry Chrimbo to all our readers and those who have it read out to them and those few who need it explaining through the medium of dance.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Dec 13 - 01:03 PM

Yes Musket.
You ridiculed me for saying there is a vast difference between Islam and Islamism, and you asked me to explain it to you.

You showed your lack of basic knowledge about this issue.
Conflating those two descriptions is the mark of an Islamophobe, or an ignoramus.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 25 Dec 13 - 02:23 PM

Ooh I don't know ?

Saying Islamism is of Islam sounds more like a literalist to me.

There again, I'm just an Islamophobe so what do I know?

Nice to see The Archbishop agreeing with the view I prefer over reasons for Chridtians being the most persecuted in some areas. Pity about the awful persecution mind...

Merry Chrimbo each and every one of us. So glad Charles Dickens invented this celebration. He doesn't get enough credit you know.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Dec 13 - 03:15 PM

Again, you show your profound ignorance.
Here a Council of Europe resolution speaks of the need to "combat" and "stamp out" Islamism.
You vilified me for being critical of it.
How stupidly ignorant of you!
http://assembly.coe.int/Mainf.asp?link=/Documents/AdoptedText/ta10/ERES1743.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 26 Dec 13 - 03:02 AM

Context can be so unfortunate.

So can pig ignorance when purposely applied by Keith A Hole of Hertford.

Get back to your Brussel sprouts. Oh, on the way, fire up your Amstrad and look up usage of the phrase "which has become to mean."

The Council of Europe took evidence from The Council of Mosques who deplore the association that the modern use of "Islamism" gives to their religion.

Anyone would think it was persecution........

zzzzzzzzz

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Dec 13 - 04:12 AM

The Council of Mosques who deplore the association that the modern use of "Islamism" gives to their religion.

Yes.
They deplore twats like you who do not understand the difference, and use the terms Islam and Islamism interchangeably.

Your towering ego is matched only by your ignorant stupidity.
You really think you know more about meaning and usage than OED!
You really think you are better informed than the Council of Europe!
You think you know more about History than historians!
You make up Christian atrocities and think no-one will notice.
You make up an anti Christian propaganda about Uganda and hope no-one will notice.
You are just an ignorant fool.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Dec 13 - 04:19 AM

Troubadour, you said of Bobad and me "They(Muslims) are all Islamists to you two."

The opposite is the truth.
We made a clear distinction between Islam and Islamism.
It is just moronic Musket who lumps them together.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 26 Dec 13 - 06:50 AM

I wouldst something at this point but Major Misunderstanding VD&bar inadvertently says it all for me.

Thick cunt

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Dec 13 - 01:25 AM

There is nothing "inadvertant" there you silly old muppet, but if you are so uncomprehendingly thick as to think any of it makes you look good, I am more than happy to reiterate.

Troubadour, you said of Bobad and me "They(Muslims) are all Islamists to you two."

The opposite is the truth.
We made a clear distinction between Islam and Islamism.
It is only moronic Musket who lumps them together.

Musket.
The Council of Mosques who deplore the association that the modern use of "Islamism" gives to their religion.

Yes.
They deplore twats like you who do not comprehend the difference, and use the terms Islam and Islamism interchangeably.

Your towering ego is matched only by your ignorant stupidity.
You really think you know more about meaning and usage than OED!
You really think you are better informed than the Council of Europe!
You think you know more about History than historians!
You make up Christian atrocities and think no-one will notice.
You make up anti Christian propaganda about Uganda and hope no-one will notice.
You are just an ignorant fool.

Do not thank me.
You are SO welcome.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Dec 13 - 02:14 AM

Musket appears most obligingly to have summarised himself

~~~~~ "...inadvertently says it all for me.

Thick cunt" ~~~~~

doesn't he?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Dec 13 - 03:08 AM

"You keep out of it unless you want a good hiding too."

Ooohhh, you kinky old sod, you! If I wasn't wearing sheepskin moccasins I should be trembling in my boots!!!!
.,,.,.

"Sorry Michael. I can't think of anything nicer than thick cunt."

And I don't recall having enquired as to your amatory predilections ~~ why are you informing me/us of them with such reckless abandon?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Dec 13 - 04:38 AM

Musket, Google can not find your "quote."
Which of the many regional "Council of Mosques" is supposed to have said it?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 27 Dec 13 - 04:58 AM

Looks like you are going to have to get to the back of the queue Michael. I'm compiling a list as I type.

That's the problem with providing quotes Keith. Your silly yet fully anticipated reaction demonstrates the difference between debate and recording a series of BBC's "Would I lie to you."

Here's a tip. Your lack of expertise in the field of research does not equate to failure of facts. More a failure of Keith A Hole of Hertford. You can only call people liars for so long Keith. Eventually you are going to have to either engage in debate or download a better search tool. They exist you know. I have access to an academic research one that is the mutts nuts.

Strangely, I don't see the need when debating. And if Mudcat were a research website, your character would provide novel study for all.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Dec 13 - 05:06 AM

I just reported that Google does not find that quote, and that there is no single "Council of Mosques."
That is factual.
Is there an explanation?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Dec 13 - 06:46 AM

What 'queue', Ian? For a walloping from you? Dream on, Saucebox! Why, bigger ladies than you...

& in the field of what 'research' do I 'lack expertise' or have fallen short? I am unaware of having undertaken any 'research', be it on your sexual activities, especially as regards your perception of the relative firmness of ladies' vaginal areas, or on any other topic to which you seem of late to have been giving earnest & doubtless fascinating* attention. 

~M~


*but SFAICS of more than somewhat questionable relevance

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: bobad
Date: 27 Dec 13 - 07:58 AM

For those still unclear on the concept:Islam vs. Islamists

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Dec 13 - 09:36 AM

And then of course there are the Christianists working to impose Biblical Law, outlaw abortion, criminalize same-sex relationships, promote "Creationism" &c. &c., and taking over governing bodies across the globe, & of particular note in the Southern U.S. of A.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Dec 13 - 10:14 AM

Well Musket, Google can only find that quote in your post, not "from The Council of Mosques website. " or any other.
Anyway, there are many councils of mosques, no "The" Council of Mosques.

If you have not made the whole thing up, use your wonderful "academic research" search engine to find it and give us a link.

Will you come up with an excuse not to?
Good luck with that.
Fool.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Dec 13 - 10:29 AM

And then of course there are the Christianists working to impose Biblical Law, outlaw abortion, criminalize same-sex relationships, promote "Creationism" &c. &c., and taking over governing bodies across the globe, & of particular note in the Southern U.S. of A.
.,,.

How many 'governing bodies' have they 'taken over across the globe', then Greg? How many soldiers' heads have they hacked off with machetes in the streets of Little Rock or Nashville because that's what Jesus told them to do?

Just asking...

~M~

"Whataboutery", I always call that sort of argument: infallible identifier of a fool who wouldn't know a real argument if it kicked him in the goolies with hobnailed boots...

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 27 Dec 13 - 10:39 AM

Much bigger ladies Michael.

I live near Doncaster.

Mind you, not all of them could be described as ladies. Nor indeed I a gent.

As to firmness, I'd say firm beforehand, softening when in the company of an Adonis such as what I is.

All that research bollocks was for Keith A Hole of Hertford, not you. Generally, you have confidence of your own intellect when debating, rather than playing google top trumps.

In fact, I don't think I've enjoyed a debate with you lately. You seem to have found egging on pillocks a more satisfactory game. Can't blame you, I chuckle at his attempts to make me look a bigger arse than I am, which takes some doing. Nothing soft there though, tight as a duck's. *

Your cheerleading is somewhat a distraction I suppose. If you can think of any subject you wish me to weave in, please do ask. I enjoy pompous sanctimony to be fair, and Keith is one of those part time Christians who manage to excel in the art. If we ran a Noël Coward tangent I suppose, but avoid Princess Di? Plenty there for normal people to discuss and oddballs to google.



*(Apart from those ducks with holes through their middle. What are they cal...? Oh yes, that's it. Henry Moorhens.)

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Dec 13 - 11:45 AM

I do not play "google top trumps" but it is usual to provide a link to a quote, so it can be seen in context.

It is not usual to make up quotes from non-existent websites as you have just done!

But then Musket, it is not usual for a normal person to think they know more about meaning and usage than OED!
Or think they are better informed than the Council of Europe!
Or think they know more about History than historians!
Or make up Christian atrocities and think no-one will notice.
Or make up anti Christian propaganda about Uganda and hope no-one will notice.

What an ignorant, stupid fool you are Musket.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 27 Dec 13 - 12:16 PM

Buggered and flawed from the first sentence. You do play google top trumps which is why I stopped debating seriously with you a long time ago.

The rest of your post gave me a giggle though, thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Dec 13 - 12:25 PM

Do you think it reasonable and acceptable to lie and make shit up just for some advantage in debate?
Is that the only way to make your views stand up?
Your views must be shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Dec 13 - 12:30 PM

Well ~M~, first of all, read up on your recent U.S. history & the governors and legislatures of an increasing number of U.S. States. Then check the Congressional record, for the speaches of the TeaPublican "Christian"[sic] Senators and Representaives.

By the way, how many women have died of botched abortions because safe, legal ones weren't available?

How many black folks have been lynched, burned at the stake, castrated or simply shot or beaten to death by the proudly white "Christian"[sic] Ku Klux Klan and other "Christian"[sic] white supremecist groups? (Hint: best re-think your "Little Rock or Nashville comment")

How many Lesbian/Gay/TransGender teens have committed suicide due to persecution by ""Christians"[sic]?

Hardly "whataboutery" - simply some unpleasant truths.

How many impressionable children are being taught Creationist garbage in the guise of fact and never realize that there are serious consequences to believing nonsense?

Christianists don't really need machetes to impose Biblical Law.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Dec 13 - 03:08 PM

Greg ~~ I do genuinely take your points, re KKK & Southern persecutions in supposed name of Xtn values. Of course it is deplorable. But it is, surely, simply whataboutery, in the sense that it is no answer to any obnoxious abuse to cite another just as bad* as if it made the first one somehow OK. It what way do you perceive it as doing so? In what way does the fact that Southern trees bore strange fruit make it any the less iniquitous for adultresses to have melon-size stones crashed down at point-blank range on their buried-up-to-the-neck heads in the streets of Riyadh, or for teenage girls to be publicly thrashed 100+ strokes with canes on the bare buttocks for the terrible crime of having been raped & so become impure? And if it doesn't make it any less so, then why mention it? Hitler [Oh shut up, Mr Godwin!] smells no retrospectively sweeter just because Stalin killed more people, does he?

~M~

*...though numerically smaller (which does matter: think of the Hegelian concept of the critical point at which a quantative becomes a qualitative difference), less legally approved or tolerated, and far less liable to occur right now, unlike those incidents in Syria & Yemen & N Nigeria which are perfectly possibly being enacted at this very moment as you read this...

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Dec 13 - 03:12 PM

"Christianists don't really need machetes to impose Biblical Law."

>< ><

Quite; but Islamists appear to, don't they?

Thank You.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Dec 13 - 05:26 PM

in the sense that it is no answer to any obnoxious abuse to cite another just as bad

And vice versa, re: Christian v. Muslim, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Dec 13 - 06:52 PM

Don't be too hard of Ian folks...everybody knows he loves his OCLD.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 28 Dec 13 - 03:01 AM

Why do those who behead in the name of Allah get associated with machetes but those who do so on the name of Jesus don't?

I don't quite get your point Michael?

I gave an example from a while back of Nigerian terrorists claiming to be Christians attacking a Muslim community. As they were reported as chopping up people, children included, I reckon associating such weapons with one type of oppressor using religion as a tool and not acknowledging others is something I expect from idealistic fools such as Keith, not you.




Oy Keith! I enjoyed Greg's poetry quote at you in the revision of history thread. I reckon poetry is useful too. Dylan Thomas explains why you call everyone liars whilst pretending to research every word others use so you can find the slightest ambiguity.

"There are none so blind as those who will not see."

If you would be so kind as to ensure I quoted the correct line, you see, those who come to debate rather than play google top trumps tend to work mainly from memory and doubt I have read that line in 30 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Dec 13 - 03:09 AM

The example you gave from Nigeria was fictitious.
You invented it, like you just invented the quote from a non-existent website.
Do you even know the difference between truth and lies?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Dec 13 - 03:42 AM

Musket: My point regarding the use or non-use of machetes was specifically in response to Greg's equivalence of Southern US Christian Fundamendalists to Islamists: in particular those British Islamist converts of Nigerian extraction who carved up Fusilier Rigby. I have nothing to adduce in defence of the Nigerian incident you cite, of which I had not previously heard and am much distressed to learn of.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 28 Dec 13 - 03:58 AM

I'm distressed too.

Although that's nothing to my disappointment to read Keith's assertion that it never happened. Obviously, BBC PM Reports just spin porkies on the assumption I might hear it.

It wasn't those identified as Christian so he disregards it and uses his usual taunt of liar. His colours pop out all the more often. Which is good, because he might otherwise be taken seriously.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Dec 13 - 05:34 AM

Musket, if that incident had ever happened, it would not just be heard once on the radio.
Like MtheGM, I have no memory of it, and I would remember such a thing.
Not one of the news sites has such a story.
You are lying.
That incident never happened.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 28 Dec 13 - 08:23 AM

Would you? You appear to he programmed to emphasise when the victims are classified as Christian communities but ignore when they are classed as Muslim ones. It is difficult to read your spluttering crap on Israel and keep a straight face as it is.

You have form. You also scream liar! When anyone, not just me, points out something that questions your stance.

Ignorant bullies get found out eventually.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Dec 13 - 11:00 AM

There is no place for lies on a forum like this.
That incident of chopping up school kids and feeding them to pigs never happened.
What else to call it but a lie?

That quote from "The Council of Mosques" was never made by anyone except you.
What else to call it but a lie?

I did not scream?
I first asked for verification, but you can not verify a lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 28 Dec 13 - 11:10 AM

Circular. I mentioned it. Up to you whether you want to weave it into your ordered view of the world according to Keith A Hole of Hertford.

Just don't call me a liar. You get confused. You are the one who posts that he is right wing and refers to far right political organisations as "we."

And then screams liar when I mention it.

And then claims he was quoting when I find it and post it.

Yet no quotes, no commentary, no nothing other than the post itself.

Is this why you seek to put me down without cause? Is it that I had you weighed up and exposed you? Bit of a bugger because many have before me and those that can be arsed still are. I had a good laugh at you on the Israel thread. No point in joining in, you are spinning in ever decreasing circles without any help.

Give my regards to Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Dec 13 - 11:25 AM

It was a quote.
The quote is still on the site and I linked to it to prove it.
I will link again if you like.
I have no affiliation or even loyalty to any party.
The spokesperson I quoted said "we" in his quote.

You know all this from months ago.
How desperate you are to smear me!
Your problem is, like everyone except you and a couple of mates, i would not dream of lying just to win some point here.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Dec 13 - 02:02 AM

Daily Telegraph, 23rd December

Labour should not be afraid to 'do God' in order to stop the persecution of Middle East Christians says shadow foreign secretary.

"Across the world, there will be Christians this week for whom attending a church service this Christmas is not an act of faithful witness, but an act of life-risking bravery. That cannot be right and we need the courage to say so," Mr Alexander says.

He adds: "People of all faiths and none should be horrified by this persecution. We cannot, and we must not, stand by on the other side in silence for fear of offence."
Mr Alexander says persecution of Christians should be treated in the same way as anti-Semitism or Islamophobia.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/10532775/Labour-We-must-do-God-to-fight-anti-Christian-persecution.html

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Dec 13 - 12:33 PM

persecution of Christians should be treated in the same way as anti-Semitism or Islamophobia.



Sure thing, Keith - just so soon as "Christians"[sic] who persecute others are brought to book as well.

But I'm not holding my breath, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Dec 13 - 12:36 PM

Of course they should be brought to book.
Persecution is abhorrent whoever does it.
Are you aware of any?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 29 Dec 13 - 12:45 PM

Aye. The Christians here happily persecute gay people. Keith does his bit by throwing smear and shit about when anyone challenges homophobia.



Fight the good fight with all thy might!

Onward Christian soldiers!

But don't mention Christianism. He reckons only Islamism is a word connected with suppression and terror. If you quote Dr Omar Khan, he claims he doesn't exist.... Nor indeed any particular council of mosques.

I must admit, it is getting boring now. I tried debate and was cried down. I tried taking the piss to similar effect.

Not a nice man. Not nice at all. If you try saying anything, make sure it is said also by others, preferably on the first hit of a google search, as he will go looking so he can take it out of context and attack you. If he can't find it in 5 secs flat, he will call you a liar.

So if you use your own words, be prepared to be branded a liar.

Me? I will continue to use idle moments to point at his arse. Debating with him is no longer an option.

Oh, asking him to give Nigel your regards sometimes gets a reaction, if that floats anyone's boat. He has a couple of mates who goad him on too. I just can't work out whether they are helping or stoking the fire. Amusing either way.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Dec 13 - 01:31 PM

The school kids chopped up and fed to pigs WAS a lie.
The "quote" from a non-existent site WAS a lie.
Saying I called others liar within 36 hours WAS a lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Elmore
Date: 29 Dec 13 - 06:16 PM

When the Christians here in the mountains of North Georgia (USA) found out I was a Unitarian, they burned a question mark on my lawn.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Dec 13 - 06:33 PM

Are you aware of any?

Jesus wept.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 29 Dec 13 - 07:14 PM

"It is not usual to make up quotes from non-existent websites as you have just done!"

So that's why you don't supply sources for you more outrageous cut 'n pastes!

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 02:26 AM

Not true Troub.
If I have missed one, tell me and I will supply.
Greg, I take that as a "no."

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 08:32 AM

How does one compare the provenance of a website with the assertion of a Mudcat member?

I know I keep harping on about it, but those with an agenda as opposed to being objective tend to be the ones who feel the need to back up their comments with links to someone who agrees with them.

I see so called facts on many websites, some even government ones, that don't exactly tell it as it is where I have knowledge, so Keith's rather juvenile attempts to stifle debate by clinging onto subjective snippets doesn't exactly encourage debate..

But there again, his point that people are being persecuted purely due to interpretations of old books rather than more temporal reasons doesn't encourage debate either, just point and laugh.

And I can do that by watching clowns throw custard pies at each other.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: bobad
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 08:39 AM

Facts are anathema to idealogues.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 08:54 AM

Musket, I recently linked to Guardian piece about "Christian Persecution" and quotes of a Labour shadow minister talking about the same, so please do not pretend it is only me who thinks there is an issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 04:36 PM

Hah!...What a joke, Ian whining about others trying to "stifle debate".

This is the same guy who states that other members should not be allowed to voice their opinions, who he would like to see "stop breathing", who he continually calls childish or obscene names and who he tries to intimidate at every opportunity....

What a bloody hypocrite.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 04:53 PM

No. I just feel nauseous when you state that gay people are perverts and your wish to see them as having less rights than others.

I would rather you lose the right to openly preach hate and homophobia.

In the meantime, I speak of the prevalence of Christian persecution and Keith likes to say I don't believe it. He says only he reckons there is an issue.

Sad tossers. Bigotry doesn't like having a mirror held to it, possibly because you are only ashamed of your stance when people smile as they dismiss you.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 05:31 PM

Greg, I take that as a "no."

Now THERE'S your problem - or at least one of many.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Dec 13 - 01:28 AM

Then I ask you again Greg.
Of course they(Xtian persecutors) should be brought to book.
Persecution is abhorrent whoever does it.
Are you aware of any?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: bobad
Date: 31 Dec 13 - 08:23 AM

Yeah but Keith. being anti-abortion is the equivalent of beheading, don't you know?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 Dec 13 - 09:41 AM

Here's some info on the "Christans"[sic] who do the persecuting in the U.S. by among other things shoving nonsense down the throats of impressionable children and by forcing others to live according to the tennets of nonsense.

Just 43 percent of self-identified Republicans in America believe that humans and other living beings evolved over time, according to a newly released Pew Research Center poll. The figure has fallen sharply from 54 percent in a similar survey taken in 2009.

By contrast, 48 percent from the GOP believe that all living things have existed in their present form since the beginning of time.

31 Dec 2013

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 Dec 13 - 10:14 AM

anti-abortion is the equivalent of beheading

It is, BooBad, when the mother dies in favor of a clump of cells.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Dec 13 - 10:27 AM

We could discuss that on another thread, and you would find I share your views.
This thread is about the kind of persecution that drives ancient communities into extinction by murder, torture, imprisonment, rape, forced conversion and the destruction of homes and places of worship.
Are you aware of any Xtians doing that?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 Dec 13 - 11:03 AM

drives ancient communities into extinction Oh! is THAT what its about? Ancient Cultures? Like Atlantis you mean? Or the Hittites?

Precisely which ancient cultures are you talking about specifically?

by murder, torture, imprisonment, rape, forced conversion and the destruction of homes and places of worship. Are you aware of any Xtians doing that?

Are you telling me you're NOT aware of any?

Jesus is still weeping.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 31 Dec 13 - 11:39 AM

Err. Yes Keith.

It gives no pleasure whatsoever in shooting you down with facts because the situation in Central African Republic is awful. Both sides on the conflict are committing atrocities and they are divided on Christian v Muslim lines. The Christian rebels are believed to have beheaded children as part of trying to regain parts of the capital.

I have just been listening to BBC Radio 4 news whilst driving home. Presumably you can read it before conceding I am not a liar?

Your stance above that nobody can provide evidence of Christians committing atrocities is absolutely fucking outrageous.

What is the difference between a Christian and a Muslim? What makes one more likely to commit atrocities than the other ?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Dec 13 - 12:04 PM

It is not my stance that no-one can, but no-one has.
So please give us some.
The very worst ones you are aware of.

I have been following the sectarian strife in CAR.
What point are you making about it?

Greg, by ancient communities I meant communities that have existed since biblical times.
Like the Christians in Syria, West Bank, Iraq, ........

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 Dec 13 - 12:10 PM

...Like the Christians in Syria, West Bank, Iraq, ........

Ah, but Keith, those are in fact very modern communities. Or do you mean to only deal with communities mentioned in the Bible and other fairy-tales?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Dec 13 - 12:38 PM

Wrong Greg.
You are as ignorant as your muppet mate.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Dec 13 - 12:47 PM

The first Christian communities in Roman Palestine were Aramaic speaking Messianic Jews and Latin and Greek speaking Romans and Greeks, who were in part descendants from previous settlers of the regions,

The Christian communities of Syria, which comprise about 10 percent of the population,[1] spring from two great traditions. On the one hand, Roman Catholicism and Protestantism were introduced by missionaries and a small number of Syrians are members of Western denominations. The vast majority, on the other hand, belong to the Eastern communions, which have existed in Syria since the earliest days of Christianity.

Christianity was brought to Iraq in the first century AD by the Apostles Thomas and Addai (Thaddaeus) and his pupils Aggagi and Mari. Thomas and Thaddeus belonged to the twelve Apostles.[4] Iraq's Eastern Aramaic speaking Assyrian Christian communities are believed to be among the oldest in the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 Dec 13 - 04:47 PM

You bet, Keith - but what has all that BS got to do with the modern communities of today that we are discussing in light of what is occurring NOW?

Absolutely nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Dec 13 - 06:38 PM

"Yeah but Keith. being anti-abortion is the equivalent of beheading, don't you know?"

It is when a woman is left to die when a termination would save her life.

That is what is being advocated and that is what is being carried out in supposedly civilised countries which are hag ridden by religious fundamentalists.

And that is what is being proposed by the Christian Right/Republicans in the USA.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Dec 13 - 06:39 PM

And that is what you are suggesting is right Bobad, which tells us a lot about you!

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 31 Dec 13 - 06:50 PM

"Greg, by ancient communities I meant communities that have existed since biblical times.
Like the Christians in Syria, West Bank, Iraq, ..."

Like the Cathars of central Europe?

I see that you are quite happy to encompass the distant past as long as the Crusades, the Inquisition and the destruction of the Druids are disallowed from the discussion.

You are one of the most biased people in existence.

A man out of his proper time and place, which would most likely be Germany c. 1933.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Elmore
Date: 31 Dec 13 - 09:44 PM

I know some Flamingos in West Palm Beach Florida who have a statue of an Italian in their front yard. Is that Christian Persecution?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Jan 14 - 01:29 AM

The difference, Troubadour, as anyone with ¼-brain could instantly spot, is that the Christian communities mentioned are still there, while the historic events like the Inquisition &c which you mention are no longer ongoing.

You come over as ill-natured, with your comments re Germany 1933 &c, as well, quite clearly as I mention above, as not right bright, I regret to say.

Just stick to plucking your lute & singing under the castle walls, why don't you?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 01 Jan 14 - 03:21 AM

What do you mean by Christian community?

In the local rag, the vicar of the village church reckons we are a Christian community. According to the council we have almost 3,000 people living here. According to Mrs Musket who took her Uncle to the Xmas Day service, there were about 30 people there and the vicar congratulated the good turnout.

An hour later, the pub next door had bar queues almost leading outside.

Later today, we are at a New Year dinner party hosted by our Sikh neighbours.

Christian community indeed. But there again, this thread is about significant minority oppression not choice of imaginary friend. Keith A Hole of Hertford and his tambourine rattling mates are trying to say that the large numbers of perceived Christian communities are being persecuted because of Jesus and other imaginary nonsense rather than the more temporal reasons behind it.

True. Ignorant peasants are told to commit atrocities in the name of a God. Here, the myth is perpetuated by a similar mentality.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Jan 14 - 04:35 AM

Well, yes, Ian. I agree that it is not the fact of a differently professed Imaginary Friend that is necessarily the instant cause of the persecution of these minority communities by the majorities in places where they have long existed. But it is the ultimate historical cause of the perceived difference which is the trigger for the hostility of the majority towards the minority. Thus far, Keith has it right ~~ they are being persecuted for a perceived difference historically rooted in what originated as a religious variation from the local norm. "Whatabouteries" regarding activities of some of their notional co-religionists elsewhere, leading to deaths thru prevention of abortions or other abuses of authority by Xtn majorities in other places, are at best marginal to the point which is the gravamen of this thread. I can't see why its OP should be subjected to so much contempt, contumely & abuse for pointing out some incontrovertible statistical facts which are distasteful to some holding doctrinaire views like yours. Even if some Xtns in some places are less than squeaky-clean doesn't mean entire equivalence of any abuses by either party, as the somewhat uncharacteristically stupid question at the end of your post 12 back seems to imply. As I have pointed out several times already, I recall no recent instances of any Xtn hacking a Muslim to death with a machete and then claiming publicly that it was a virtuous act enjoined upon him by his Faith in revenge for some supposed abuses of his religion.

Happy New Year

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Jan 14 - 04:59 AM

... supported by accurate, even if selective ('cherry-picked') citations of his Faith's Holy Writ. Can you think of any part of the NT which could be so employed; or [honest now] imagine any Xtn resorting to such in justification?

There's your 'difference': I hope you are not so mulishly set in your modes of thought as to deny it.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jan 14 - 05:47 AM

I am happy to discuss abortion and I share your views.
There have been many threads about such things, so why must this one be about it too?
This is the only thread that deals with the kind of persecution that drives ancient communities into extinction by murder, torture, imprisonment, rape, forced conversion and the destruction of homes and places of worship.

Let's talk about those other issues, but somewhere else.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 01 Jan 14 - 11:23 AM

Yes Michael, but the comments on this thread by some infer the word " Christian" as having more significance than just being the identifier label in most of the widely reported atrocities.

If Christians feel everyone else has it in for them, and Muslims reckon everyone has it in for them..... Yet any side will cite a handy translation of their old stories to wave in people's' faces as if it is the deeds to their land.

The fog rises.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Elmore
Date: 01 Jan 14 - 06:15 PM

The lady from Sprinkles, our local trash pickup service told me to have a blessed new year. just as offensive to me as Rush and Palin being wished a happy holiday. More Christian Persecution.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jan 14 - 06:26 PM

Christians deserve no more persecution than they have dished out.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Jan 14 - 06:34 PM

Christians deserve no more persecution than they have dished out.

In that case, to balance the accounts, "Christians"[sic] are still due an enormous amount of persecution.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jan 14 - 06:36 PM

Yeppers.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jan 14 - 01:19 AM

If there is anger over people persecuting in the name of their version of a god, I suppose it is only right that there should be suspicion at least towards those for whom distinguishing between different religions is important.

Leaders of Christian groups and scholars of Q'ran rush out to remind us all that their faith is based on love and charity. Yet both cults have a need to convert people of other cults to theirs.

To those who only see their missionary status as something to do with sex, the indignation by some contributors here would be funny if the subject weren't so awful.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jan 14 - 04:29 AM

Christian communities are dwindling to extinction in the face of relentless persecution and murder.

Laugh it up.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 02 Jan 14 - 04:40 AM

That's a thought.

Our village of 3000 people gets a "good turnout" in church of 30 on Christmas Day. That includes my missus who is as religious as me and her Uncle who lives down south.

I've seen the old photos of how the village used to be centred around the church activities.

We seem to be an excellent example of a Christian community dwindling to extinction. Not so much murder as enlightenment.

Choose your words better, prat.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jan 14 - 04:49 AM

Are the Christians in your village being murdered, tortured, forced to convert, burned out of their homes and churches?
If not, it is not an example of persecution.
Just a smoke screen to obscure the horrific fact of real persecution.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Jan 14 - 05:14 AM

You really are being peculiarly heartless & lacking in empathy, Musket. People are receiving widespread irrational maltreatment for reasons of ethnicity, historically based on their ancestors' beliefs, which render them an easily identifiable alien minority in the places they happen to have been born. You seem to think this a bit of a giggle, comparable, by some odd mnemonic cerebrations of your own, to a lack of enthusiasm for seasonal celebrations in your parish, and similarly caused.

You really are behaving shamefully, you know; and ought to snap out of it if you intend, on your better recollections, to retain any self-respect.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: bobad
Date: 02 Jan 14 - 08:15 AM

He has to be trolling as entertainment for himself and the other ostriches as no one can surely be that obtuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jan 14 - 02:53 PM

Just thought I'd put this up to see if persecution by Christians had been elevated to 'Christian Persecution' status yet or is it still on the 'Index' as being a taboo subject.
It appeared in the Irish Times on the same day as did Ex Irish President Mary McAlees's wonderful summing of of the clergy's reputation as sexual predators as being "not so much the elephant in the room, but the herd of elephants in the room.
Don't really expect a response from outraged Christians from Tunbridge Wells posting here.
When will they ever learn - as the man said!!
Jim Carroll

EX-SWISS GUARD MAKES SEXUAL ADVANCES CLAIM
For almost 500 years, young men from all over Switzerland have made the trek to Rome to guard the pope as Swiss guards.
Now a former member of the elite division has revealed that, besides protecting the pontiff, he spent his two years in the Vatican rebuffing unwanted sexual advances from priests, bishops and even a high-ranking cardinal.
The unnamed guard told a Swiss newspaper that he was the subject of 20 "unambiguous sexual requests".
"One night, after midnight, I received a call on my mobile phone," said the former guard in the interview. "The person on the other end said he was a cardinal and he asked me to come to his room."
On another occasion the guard, who said he served during the papacy of Pope John Paul II, found a bottle of whiskey outside his door alongside the calling card of an influential bishop.
He recalled a dinner with a priest in a Rome restaurant that took an unexpected turn.
"As the spinach and steak were served, the priest said to me: 'And you are the dessert'," recalled the ex-guard, saying he stood up and left without touching his food. When the guard complained about the incident to his superior in the guard, he said he was told that, as he spoke no Italian, he had clearly misunderstood the priest's intentions.
Rumours
When the time came for him to leave the Vatican, and the ex-guard intended to apply for a job in the Vatican, he was told to meet an unnamed bishop but to "have a shower before¬hand".
Mr Urs Breitenmoser, a guard spokesman, told the Swiss newspaper that the rumours were of no interest and that guards occupied them¬selves with "very different matters" during their two-year service.
The Swiss Guard were found¬ed in 1506 by Pope Julius II. Members must be unmarried Swiss men between the ages of 19 and 30 and of "good moral ethical background".

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Jan 14 - 03:44 PM

Jim: I can't see where anyone is denying that there has been, and continues to be, much iniquitous behaviour by people of the Christian faith, many often professionally connected with it as priesthood &c. But it is still a bit of unacceptable 'wotaboutery' to suggest, as you appear to do, that because some priests have persecuted [in a much more minor sense than the true persecution ref'd in the title & main topic of this thread], with uncongenial sexual advances or other forms of advantage-taking, hangers-on & acolytes of inferior status to theirs such as altar boys & Swiss Guards, well then, never mind what is happening to the Church in Saudi or Yemen or Malaysia or Egypt or wherever. A Swiss Guard says that some bishops & cardinals made passes on him: so if they are killing Xtns just for being Xtns in Egypt, well that's all right then.

I know you will say you are not defending the latter by citing the former; in which case, what exactly is your point, then? You, or one on your side of the matter if it wasn't you personally, rather oddly suggested to Keith that, if he objected to this peculiar 'wotabout' drift, he could OP a new thread: which was a bit rich as he had OP'd this one anyhow & it was you lot that had hijacked it. So, if you want to go on about bishops buggering choirboys -- which isn't what this thread is about, for all your saying -- why don't YOU start one to moan on about it then?

Oh, what's the use? I know your mind's made up and you're not listening...

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 10 Jan 14 - 04:02 PM

Strange Michael?

I thought I was being consistent on saying that differentiating between persecution on the grounds of choice of delusion was disrespectful and distasteful.

Interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Jan 14 - 04:18 PM

Can't see where you are coming from there, Ian. What has that to do with any of the points I made in my post that preceded? But your somewhat gnomic manner of expression quite often leaves me fumbling. I suppose you know what you mean; but whether this is a general effect among readers of your strange utterances I beg leave to doubt.

Regards

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jan 14 - 04:38 PM

"Just stick to plucking your lute & singing under the castle walls, why don't you?"

I recall a time when you were less arrogant and much more likeable, even to the point of sounding quite intelligent and erudite.

Your choice of bigots to support seems to have had a bad influence on your manners.

It matters not how long ago persecution and murders stopped happening. Memories of that nature form the basis of the kind of hatred you and Keith exalt in Christians and decry in all other religions.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jan 14 - 05:20 AM

"I know you will say you are not defending the latter by citing the former; in which case, what exactly is your point, then?"
My point is, and always has been, that all religions by their very nature carry the risk of persecution, and to refuse to recognise that fact is to allow that risk to continue.
To trivialise this case, in the context of the thousands of rapes of children by members of the Catholic, really doesn't give your case much credibility.
Your mentor has done his level best to censor this discussion to hide the fact that Christians are just as likely to persecute as any other religion is, you, true to form, agree with him.
You must give us your sliding scale of when an offence becomes a crime and then becomes an abuse of human rights sometim.
It seems to be a guiding light in your thinking on a number of subjects.
I would have thought that, despite decades of revelations of clerical abuse, Christina clergy, including those in the upper echelons, are still proving themselves sexual predators a point well worth making.
The op, in his attempts at censorship and his open support for persecution BY Christians, has made it quite clear that this thread has never been concerned with religious persecution, but rather, part of his Islamophobic campaign
That he has a loyal supporter in that campaign in your willingness to be part of that campaign - a loyal Bunter to his Lord Peter Wimsey, may be quaintly touching - but it brings you down to his sewer level.
I trust you have no objections to that fact
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jan 14 - 05:36 AM

We could discuss that on another thread, and you would find I share your views.
This is the only thread about the kind of persecution that drives ancient communities into extinction by murder, torture, imprisonment, rape, forced conversion and the destruction of homes and places of worship.
Are you aware of any Xtians doing that?

There have been many threads about misbehaviour by people linked to churches.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jan 14 - 05:47 AM

(Reuters) - Reported cases of Christians killed for their faith around the world doubled in 2013 from the year before, with Syria accounting for more than the whole global total in 2012, according to an annual survey.

Open Doors, a non-denominational group supporting persecuted Christians worldwide, said on Wednesday it had documented 2,123 "martyr" killings, compared with 1,201 in 2012. There were 1,213 such deaths in Syria alone last year, it said.

"This is a very minimal count based on what has been reported in the media and we can confirm," said Frans Veerman, head of research for Open Doors. Estimates by other Christian groups put the annual figure as high as 8,000.

The Open Doors report placed North Korea at the top of its list of 50 most dangerous countries for Christians, a position it has held since the annual survey began 12 years ago. Somalia, Syria, Iraq and Afghanistan were the next four in line.

The United States-based group reported increasing violence against Christians in Africa and said radical Muslims were the main source of persecution in 36 countries on its list.

"Islamist extremism is the worst persecutor of the worldwide church," it said.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/09/christian-persecution_n_4568286.html

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jan 14 - 05:52 AM

Only because you choose to make it part of your Islamophobic campaign Keith
To the world it is about religious persecution everywhere
Compartmentalising persecution into Christian, Muslim, Jew - whatever, adds to that persecution and spread unrest between religions.
The persecution of Christians in no different in any way to your and your kind's persecution of Muslims - both ruin lives and kill people
Your continuing attempts censorship and your open support of persecution by Christians by denying its existence and blaming the victim by saying "they could go and live somewhere else" become a form of persecution in itself
Piss of and stop trying to stifle discussion.
Take your holy war somewhere else, I'm sure your loyal batman will remain at your side through thick and thin.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jan 14 - 06:19 AM

I welcome discussion of any persecution, regardless of the victim or perpetrator, but this thread is about the kind of persecution that drives ancient communities into extinction by murder, torture, imprisonment, rape, forced conversion and the destruction of homes and places of worship.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Jan 14 - 06:30 AM

I have some 'objections', I suppose, Jim, to your constant tedious assessments of K as my 'mentor & me as his 'poodle', 'valet', &c. How you extrapolate such from the fact that IMO he is generally right in his opinions [not always by any means, but exceptions I express are never going to penetrate your thick ☠ & resolutely closed mind]; and you're not.

Still, if it gives you any comfort or consolation or entertainment so to regard our [non-]relationship, be my guest. Does me not the least harm & seems to please your trivial occasions, such as they are. {Yes, I know -- please don't bother to denounce me again for being 'educated'; we've been there.} Far be it from me to endeavour to deprive you of your simple pleasures.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Jan 14 - 06:45 AM

Piss of [sic] and stop trying to stifle discussion.
,..,.,

That was J Carroll, if you would believe. Well Hohohohoho! I daresay he's one of the boobies who think that the old adage about the pot & the kettle is racist, becoz they're obsessive doctrinaire fools to whom the word 'black' can only have one possible connotation; but he would do well to consider its implications nonetheless.

I was going to advise him maybe to start yet another thread about the iniquities of the Catholic clergy if he's so exclusively concerned with the topic. But on second thoughts it would be a pity if he left this one, where his perpetual point-missing making·an·even·bigger·fool·of·himself·every·time·he·posts provides so much innocent entertainment.

So Carry On, Carroll! We'll be sure to miss you when you're gone.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jan 14 - 06:54 AM

While there have been several threads about persecution of Muslim, Jews and other religions by Christians, to my recollection they have never taken place in the context of the tendencies of all religions to persecute - the basic cause of all religious persecution.
This thread is whatever any contributor cares to make it regarding religious persecution, either of or by Christians, no matter whatever your obvious motives were for starting it.SO DAMN WELL STOP ATTEMPTING TO PREVENT ANYBODY WHO WISHES TO DISCUSS THIS , IN ANY WAY WE CHOOSE AND ANYWHERE WE CHOOSE - A BASIC RIGHT OF ALL FORUM MEMBERS
It really is time that the site administrators took a hand in your constant attempts to manipulate and censor threads - come on lads and ladies, tell this feller he doesn't own this forum or the threads on it   
There never is a forum fairy around when you want one!
"and you would find I share your views."
Very comforting, I'm sure, except for the fact that nowadays on this forum your support for anything is regarded as a leper's bell, not a confirmation that what we say makes any sense.
You really should come with a health warning
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Jan 14 - 07:02 AM

Am I the only one who thinks that

BLOODY GREAT BIG ENORMOUS CAPITAL LETTERS

are at least half way to an admission of self-doubt if not of absolute defeat?!

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jan 14 - 07:17 AM

If you have something to day, direct the points made and stop attempting to undermining our chosen method of expressing it.
Am I the only one fed up to the back teeth with ultra-pratt extremists like you an your mate interfering with the what we have to say and how we choose to say it on this forum - go and fin#d a beirgarten and hold your own little rally, you pair of goose-steppers
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Jan 14 - 08:12 AM

☠~Achtung, Herr Carroll. Wir haben vays of making you shut-der-hell-up!~☠

[If only...!]

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jan 14 - 08:13 AM

If either of you wish to challenge anything I have to say with anything resembling reasoned argument, bring it on, I'll happily slow down long enough for you to decide between yourselves whose turn it is to use the brain cell.
Both both of you seem to have settled on smear, censorship and unsustainable claims of "defeat" and "victory" as a substitute for honest and intelligent discussion - please don't - it lowers the tone of the neighbourhood.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Jan 14 - 09:24 AM

OK, seriously then, Jim. I appreciate the force of much of what you have to say, even if I don't agree with all of it. But I genuinely don't feel it appropriately placed on this thread, whose purpose is manifestly to draw attention to the plight of certain communities who are in need of help and succour, not one about the comparative iniquities of various religious groups, to be set up against one another in a sort of league table of abuses, in an attempt to denigrate all religions. We all know what you think on that head. You know that I am largely in agreement with you, in this respect at least. But it not an attempt at censorship or any sort of bullying or obstruction to point out that this is not the place to make these points, intrinsically valid & valuable as they may be. There are many other threads more fitting for such a purpose, where they will not dilute the urgent message intended to be conveyed in this one.

Can you really not see that? Forget the point-scoring and attend to the plight of those currently, right-now, at-this-very-moment, oppressed and endangered communities.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 11 Jan 14 - 10:04 AM

Which side of the bed did you get out of today Michael? Jim loves to roll up his sleeves for a scrap, but methinks you've been at the Bravery brand cooking sherry today?

Lots of Christian persecution going on in CAR at he moment for those keeping the tragic score. They are intent on killing as many Muslims as they can find a la the BBC telly news last night.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: bobad
Date: 11 Jan 14 - 10:12 AM

And....the second anal polyp sprouts.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jan 14 - 10:31 AM

Remember, we have seen massacres of Xtians in CAR very recently.
Nothing here to support your claim muppet.
BBC 2 days ago.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-25657816
BBC 19 hours ago.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-13150040

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jan 14 - 10:57 AM

"But I genuinely don't feel it appropriately placed on this thread,"
Your opinion Mike - not mine.
Discussing any religious persecution without including the right to put it into context by discussing why religious persecution takes place is an exercise in futility - like having sex while wearing a condom - self indulgent but, in the long run, sterile.
Suppressing such discussion is censorship and in the hands of toe-rags like Keith, become weapons of sectarian hatred and bigotry
He uses such tactics regularly whenever his limited intelligence leads him into a dead end.
He has been warned persistently that his use of "thread drift" is bullying and undemocratic and has been asked to stop it - he persistes on doing it - see his efforts on the WW1 thread.
It wouldn't matter with most people who take part in these discussions, but his insistence on taking proprietorship of every single thread he takes part in, dominating in and insisting on having the last word (on every single one) nauses up open discussion for everybody else.
I know why he does if - he is a thicko Ialamophobe on a mission,
I quite frankly can't work out where you stand in this - you're certainly not thick and, while we've had our differences, I don't believe you to be the all-out bigot he obviously is.
"Currently" this planet is on the verge of a holy war caused by a handful of bigots and zealots like Keith who utilise and manipulate the power that religion - all religion - wields over the many millions of harmless believers who pose no risk to anybody.
Using the behavior of the few zealots to brand all Muslims, as Keith and his ilk do, only adds to the rift.
Keith's support by denial of crimes committed by Christians - no matter how unimportant you or anybody views them, only allows him and his fellow nutters to throw petrol on an explosive situation
Not a world I would like to bequeath to anybody belonging to me.
If we can't discuss all aspects of a subject like this, these subjects become little more than a wailing wall.
Keith regularly uses thread drift - fine to express an opinion, but he openly attempts do stifle debate - in spite of taking any discussion wherever it suits him himself - as he once said when his behaviour was pointed out pointed our "thread drift happens" - only in the case of his objections, it is never really thread-drift, just a convenient way for him to dig himself out of a hole - as here.      
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Jan 14 - 11:25 AM

I've drunk no alcohol whatever for 12 years now, Ian. Just suddenly realised that I have never actually liked it much. Not TT* ~~ would, no doubt, politely take a sip of the champers for the toasts if found self at a wedding. Just don't like it. In the days I did drink, I should not, rest assured, have indulged in cooking sherry of any brand.

~M~

*Tho must add that I do get more & more distressed by contemplation of just how much crime & misbehaviour & destructiveness & general no-no-ness is alcohol-based. It's no use everyone trying to deny it or rationalise it away, or obviate it with po-faced injunctions to 'drink responsibly' & all that old bum. Such is unarguably the unfortunate case, isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 01:14 AM

Re your last post, Jim. We obviously differ in our assessments both of Keith's intellect and his motivations. I know there is that one quote of his ("I now believe...") you always cite out of context. I can [& sometimes do] just as easily quote back at you your peculiarly inapposite "educated" denunciation of me, &/or your invention of my having accused them of 'stealing our jobs' when I had done no such thing & your attempt to claim it as simply a rhetorical extrapolation of what I really must think or some such dishonest evasiveness. You have accused me of bigotry many times, as it happens: especially when I posted some assessments of my view of Islam as a faith [which led to that oddly quaint denunciation of Richard's that I was criticising one religion more than another which still gives me a good old chuckle when I think of it!] and why it was injudicious for any country to allow its adherents, even the non-extreme sort, to become a significant minority demographic within their population ~~ see the "Unnamed soldier" thread, 10 & 12 June 13.

All of which leaves me still thinking [of course it's my opinion, not yours: it would be, wouldn't it?] that this is not the thread on which to air your views on choirboy-shagging priests &c.

Still, there you go...

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 01:22 AM

Sorry - typo. Should of course read '"Unarmed soldier" thread'.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 02:24 AM

Stunning. You turn the 10.00pm news on, on Friday night and see a reporter talking to "Christian" militia, or older children as we might call them, armed with machetes, saying that now the CAR government has fallen , it's time to go and kill a few Muslims. To he fair it's retaliation rather than source oppression but, and here's the rub

Keith says I didn't watch it. These days, only a million or so watch the 10.00 BBC news so only a million liars eh?

You pathetic twat. Your imaginary friend might be able to tell you black is white, but that doesn't mean you can convince rational people of lies in support of a particular cult against other cults. Or no cult even.



Nothing wrong with cooking sherry Michael. I swear I was drinking it in a posh restaurant the other week when I asked for a decent Amontillado. In fact last night, when starting to pull me a pint of Landlord, the gaffer confirmed my choice with "Pint o' cookin'?"

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 02:46 AM

Hate appear ignorant ~~ but who or what CAR. No enlightenment from googling.

Suppose it must have been mere snobbery, Ian; but in the days I did drink sherry, it would be Tio Pepe* as aperitif or Harvey's Bristol or Taylor's Cream if ever I wanted a dessert wine: tho there IIRC I would generally prefer a ruby port or sweet Tokay: or more likely a liqueur, probably Cointreau or Tia Maria.

~M~

*In word games like Nebuchadnezzar, 20 ??s, &c, Tio Pepe often a good one to choose, giving letter P. In answer to inevitable 'fact or fiction?', I would reply 'Not sure'; and when challenged about this when they had given up, would say "Well, how the hell should I know whether Señor Gonzales or Señor Byass really had an Uncle Pete or not?"

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 03:52 AM

"Keith's intellect and his motivations. "
Keith's "intellect" does not extend beyond what he can cut-'n-paste from the net and it is summed up pretty neatly, along with his motivations by his description of all male Pakistanis as being culturally implanted to have sex with under-age girls - simple really.
Could go further and point out his inability to accept the consequences of his behaviour on other, mainly totally innocent people and his cowardice in refusing to stand by his arguments as being his own by inventing a team of "experts" to back up his claims, who have never said anything resembling what he expounds - a sort of 'invisible army' to help him in his crusade.
He is one sad and extremely unpleasant man.
My "educated" comment on you was said in a moment of anger and was never repeated (I think none of us can claim to have made such a remark and regretted it) and it involves nobody but you and me - the messages of hate I am referring to encompass entire communities in Britain and fuel a religious (and actual) war elsewhere
They are part of a mindset which makes their lives miserable and dangerous.
I honestly can't remember my "stealing our jobs" accusation - if I accused you of making such a remark unjustly, I apologise unreservedly and hope I said it in anger.
I am prone to lose my rag over issues that concern me, but I usually make a point of apologising when it is pointed out.
Keith has described apologising as "snivelling" and has never, in my recollection withdrawn and apologised for anything - not bad for someone who has espoused the causes he has over the years.
I'm afraid I regard your support for Keith the way I do for your support for Fascist Thatcher - ill-judged, to say the least.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 04:15 AM

Thank you, Jim: I think that the first time you have expressed regret for the 'educated' gibe, & I appreciate it. Also for your apology re the 'jobs' thing, which, purely for info & in no hostile spirit, was also on 'Unarmed Soldier':

10 Jun 13 - 02:34 AM
You leave little room to "misinterpret" anything - your statement would not be out of place on any gutter racist website; it is stated in the same terms and it says the same things - "coming over here to take our jobs and threaten our way our life"

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 04:54 AM

Musket, I am fully aware that Christian militias have now joined Muslim militias and that sectarian violence is rife in CAR, but you said,"Lots of Christian persecution going on in CAR at he moment."

That statement is not supported by BBC.
Please do not profess outrage at your word being doubted.
You actually made up an incident in Nigeria of Christians chopping up school kids and feeding them to pigs.
You also made up a quote and attributed it to "The" council of Mosques, which does not exist.
And that is just your lies on this thread!

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 05:02 AM

Again - apologies Mike, though I would point out that it was a summing up of the websites I was referring to, not an actual accusation of your having said it.
Nevertheless, an unfair and unjustified statement on my part - sorry must learn to get a grip.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 05:06 AM

Jim, I remind you that I stated at the time that I had no knowledge of that culture and could not form such an opinion about it.
I was stating that I believed those eminent Pakistani people who did say it came from the culture.
"I do now believe.."
Why wouldn't I?
Why don't you?

You told the same old lie many, many times and I have given you the truth many, many times.
It is a measure of how desperate you are to discredit me, and that you can not find one real issue to do it with.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 06:10 AM

Mind fairies Keith - they never said it and they would have been prosecuted for doing so publicly - Home Secretaries don't say those sort of things and remain in their jobs
It was a statement designed to promote cultural hatred and you made it.
You have never at any time produced anything resembling such statement.
But thank you for underlining the point I have been making here
Maybe on day you'll come to terms with the fact that all religions persecution has its roots in religion itself and to attempt to suppress discussion on that fact only allows such persecution to continue.
Isn't it time you called a truce in your Holy War?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 06:43 AM

Would someone kindly show Keith A Hole of Hertford how to install a web browser that works?

He scours the one he got free with Weetabix all the time to make sure people aren't lying, and when he can't find anything to back up your opinion, he decides you are a liar.

Sometimes, just sometimes it gets tedious.

Not this time though! It just gives me an opportunity to use provocation as the excuse to call him a rabid right wing fascist lump of runny poo, and the type of pork that can't be educated.

Ahh.. That's better. Thanks Keith, I needed that.




Weird bugger.




And yes, I am aware that runny poo doesn't come in lumps. I have a copy of The Bristol Stool Chart on my phone. My reasons, my affair.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 07:06 AM

"Weird bugger" signs old Muskibums. Don't adam&eve me? just look back to its position on his last post...

Know thyself, as old Socrates of FC Fiorentina said every time he scored a hat-trick. Adding, invariably, ΛΩΛ ...

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 07:19 AM

Jim, I remind you that I stated at the time that I had no knowledge of that culture and could not form such an opinion about it.
I was stating that I believed those eminent Pakistani people who did say it came from the culture.
"I do now believe.....But only because" those eminent people said it was the culture
Why wouldn't I believe them?
Why don't you?

Musket, if you were not lying, use your superior web browser to find any reference to those chopped up school kids or that non-existent website.
You can not do that because it is all lies.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 07:26 AM

Re CAR, Reuters yesterday.
" Djotodia, who was swept to power by mainly Muslim rebels, known as Seleka, last March.

Abuses by Seleka forces had led to the creation of Christian self-defence militia and killings that evoked memories of Rwanda's genocide 20 years ago."
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/01/11/uk-centralafrican-idUKBREA090O220140111

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 07:28 AM

Hiding behind ignorance again Keith then going on to blame somebody else for something they didn't say
You seem to be inflicted with an obsession to self-harm, which would be entirely your own business if it didn't infest the lives of so many other people, and didn't continue to fuck up this forum.
But thank you once again for making my point for me - I really do appreciate your support on this matter
"Lies, lies I tell you, all lies - yahhhhhhh......................."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 08:00 AM

Just being honest about being ignorant of that culture.
There were eminent Pakistani people and others saying that about the culture.
Why would I not believe them?

McGrath of Harlow said this last time you raked up this years old issue on this thread.

24 Oct 13 - 10:54 PM
"Nothing in the quotes from Keith you give, Jim, amount to advocating or defending persecution of Muslims, which is what you accused him.

It seems pretty self evident that how we act is to some extent culturally conditioned. That does not mean it is the only factor, or necessarily the most important factor, and it applies to highly desirable ways of behaving as well as to undesirable ways.

So when Alibhai-Brown refers to "some Asian cultural assumptions that make the paedophiles feel no guilt or shame about what they do" she is making a reasonable comment about the relation between Pakistani culture and some tragic events."
"...Keith, who in reality goes no further than Alibhai-Brown."

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 08:46 AM

"Why would I not believe them?"
Oh dear - hear we go again - but not with me
You want to convince us - show us exactly what you claim them to have said
Not from McGrath - nor from the BNP or Muslim Watch or anybody else whose views you echo
Simple as that
Give us a clue
Otherwise - have a good day
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 08:54 AM

Have you thought of looking in the pubs where your 'Military Historians' go - they may drink there?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 09:47 AM

"20 Oct 13 - 03:48 PM

Jim, Alibhai-Brown, Lord Ahmed, and Mohamed Shafiq were the ones I quoted at length (apart from Anne Cryer, Jack Straw and the Pakistani Ch4 journalist).
Deny that?
They all said the offending came from aspects of the culture.
Deny that?

For actual quotes, I put some up for you in a string of posts on this thread starting 24th October 2013 4.44AM

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 10:36 AM

"Why would I not believe them?"

I should think it would be obvious to all and sundry at this point that Keith will believe any nonsense that comes along, however unsubstantiated or preposterous it might be.

Suggest Y'all stop trying to teach the pig to sing.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 10:42 AM

The quotes Keith, the quotes?
I meant to comment o the gutter ethics of your attempting to involve another Forum member in a statement made by you which is self-explanatory and not open to interpretation.
If it isn't a breach of Muscat rules, it bloody well should be.
Now - those quotes please?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 11:14 AM

The quotes are already in this thread (among many others) in a string of posts starting 24th October 2013 4.44AM .

Why should I not remind you what Kevin said about all this nonsense last time you dredged it up?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 11:29 AM

Never noticed that Greek philosophers came from Brazil. You live and learn..

Tell you what Michael, setting out to be a weird bugger and managing it without the use of props are two different things. See Keith for details.

Don't get confused by anything I say. I'm just a liar according to Keith A Hole of Hertford. It's a nice place to be, because I can call him a trumped up staunch bigot of an apologist for the more odious fringe of Christianity, and he can't complain. After all, he reckons it isn't true by default, hence nothing to be insulted by.

Ya boo! Smelly Keith The God Botherer naa naa na naa na!

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 12:25 PM

an apologist for the more odious fringe of Christianity,

Yes. The CofE!

Musket, if you were not lying about those chopped up school kids or that non-existent website, produce a reference for us.

You can not do that because it is all lies.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 12:53 PM

"The quotes are already in this thread (among many others)"
No, they are not and you are openly lying
YOU HAVE NEVER AT ANY TIME PRODUCED A STATEMENT THAT "ALL MALE PAKISTANIS ARE CULTURALLY IMPLANTED....." NO PUBLIC FIGURE ANYWHERE HAS EVER SAID IT OR WOULD DARE TO SAY IT PUBLICLY _ SUCH IS THE LAW OF THE LAND.
IT IS PURELY OF YOUR OWN INVENTION AND IT BELONGS ON SITES LIKE MUSLIM WATCH - CERTAINLY NOT ON MUDCAT
HAD IT EVER BEEN SAID BY ANYBODY YOU HAVE NAMED YOU WOULD HAVE PRODUCED IT HERE IN ORDER TO PUT AN END TO THIS 'MOUSETRAP-LENGTH' FARCE _ AND THEY WOULD HAVE FACED PROSECUTION AND PUBLIC DISGRACE FOR MAKING SUCH AN INFLAMMATORY STATEMENT.
YOU WILL CONTINUE ONLY TO CLAIM THIS, YOU HAVE NO INTENTION OF PRODUCING IT.
"SUCH STUFF ARE HOLOCAUSTS MADE OF"
(Sorry to offend your aesthetic senses Mike.)
"Why should I not remind you what Kevin said about all this nonsense last time you dredged it up?"
If you wish to involve yet another Mudcat member in your disgusting behavior - please feel free to put up whatever you please, but I'd much rather you put up the actual quotes to back up your case.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 01:43 PM

The actual quotes are posted on this thread in a string of posts starting 24th October 2013 4.44AM not 3 months ago.

They all say that the culture is to blame.
Deny that?
Culture effects all, however slightly.
Deny that?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 02:14 PM

I'm a liar unless I do as you say?

You really do have a high opinion of yourself.
















Pity no bugger shares it.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 02:36 PM

As you have just made clear - your statement - still your opinion
Checkmate
See you next time the subject comes up
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 02:46 PM

Sócrates was a distinguished Brazilian footballer who played for Fiorentina in the 1980s, Ian. If you didn't know that, you would have done well to google to see if there were any such footballer rather than publishing your ignorance for all to see, wouldn't you! Hmm? Hmm hmm hmm? I mean, I say, whatwhatwhat!

Sócrates - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sócrates
This article is about the Brazilian footballer. For the Ancient Greek philosopher, see Socrates.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: bobad
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 03:08 PM

After 1500 plus posts the thread summarized

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 03:19 PM

Duh ~~~ What's up, Bobad.

That's All, Folks...

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 05:27 PM

I'm a liar unless I do as you say?

No Musket.
You are a liar because you can not produce anything.
It was all lies.
You are a liar.

No Jim.
Not my opinion.
I have no knowledge to form such an opinion.
I just believed what all those people said, because of who they were.
Why would you not believe them?
Because of their race?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jan 14 - 04:14 AM

"Because of their race?"
You abominable little shit.
How dare you, one of the vilest racists and bigots I have ever come across, accuse me or anybody, of racism.
You have lied here; once again you have proved yourself a liar by your total failure to produce one single shred of evidence of support for your potentially genocidal claims, and you still preach your hate-filled messages.
You are one of the most fanatical and persistent racist and sectarian bigots I have ever come across - you want a close up view of potentially terrorist preaching - go and look in the mirror.
You have preached persecution against an entire generally law abiding, hard-working and generally harmless community/religion.
You have excused and supported rape, and persecution of whole nations by the teachings of Christianity and the actual behaviour of their appointed representative by denying their influence and ignoring their behaviour telling us "if we don't like it we can go and live elsewhere"   
Whenever the subject of Israel comes up, you are the first on your feet defending terrorism, mass murder and atrocities carried out in the name of Judaism by either openly supporting or denying atrocities and crimes against humanity.
Your bahaviour has become legendary on this forum - if you have any value here it is as a shining example of religious and racial intolerance - it is your sole contribution to Mudcat.
Once again you have exposed yourself as the liar and bigot that you are - this has now becoming a serial event - as inevitable as the Queen's speech, but more regular.
Keep it up Keith - it helps lighten the load of a somewhat wet, cold and miserable winter - you have become a sort of grim and gruesome entertainment to while away the dark hours - like the next episode of Silent Witness or Wire in the Blood.
If anybody ever took you seriously outside the tiny groups of fanatics who share and espouse your views, you would be dangerous.
As it is, you are regarded little more than a modern version of Chaplin's 'Great Dictator' - a rather ridiculous clown, good for the occasional giggle, but nothing more.
Never dare to call me, or anybody else a racist again - not while you are pouring out the racist and bigoted filth that has become your stock-in-trade.
Jim Carroll
How do you like them apples Mike?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jan 14 - 04:43 AM

So, why did you refuse to believe them Jim?

Why was it wrong for me to believe them, as I am sure most people did.

Your list of false accusations against me has not one grain of truth in it.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 13 Jan 14 - 04:49 AM

I have a signed shirt on my study wall from a charity 'do promoting school football a few years ago where ex international Brazilians toured schools and councils,questioning flogging off playing fields.

The signatures, together with a photo of me grinning with them are

Socrates
Zico
Jairzinho
Felix
Carlos Alberto

Three of which were my heros as a lad from the 1970 squad.

Try not to ask rhetorical questions eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jan 14 - 06:37 AM

"So, why did you refuse to believe them Jim?"
Because you have made them up, and have been proven beyond any doubt to have done so to have done so, you brain-dead.

A recent issue which has recently hit the fan here in Ireland
It was the cause of many marriage break-ups and the removal of children from mixed-marriage parents and them being declared illegitimate throughout the twentieth century.
It has never been rescinded a remains the law of the Catholic Church
As I have been saying – any religion is capable of persecution to the level they are allowed to get away with – no exceptions
Don't suppose this counts as Christian persecution either
Jim Carroll

NE TEMERE DECREE
A declaration of matrimonial law issued by pope pius X; it went into effect Easter 1908. It was the Tametsi decree of the Council of Trent in a modified form. It took its name from the opening words and decreed that: 1. marriages involving a Catholic are invalid unless performed by a parish priest in his parish or one delegated by him, or by a bishop or appointed delegate in his own diocese; 2. no pastor can validly perform a marriage outside the limits of his own parish without delegation of the proper pastor of the parish in which he is to perform the wedding, or the bishop in whose diocese he is to perform the wedding. A bishop cannot validly perform a wedding outside his own diocese without delegation from the pastor of the parish in which he is to perform the wedding or the delegation of the bishop of that place; 3. it is also decreed that the marriage ought to be celebrated in the parish of the bride; 4. under certain circumstances a marriage may be licit and valid without a priest; 5. all marriages must be registered in the place or places where the contracting parties were baptized. There must be at least two other witnesses for validity beside the pastor or bishop. This decree did not affect persons who had never been Catholic when they married among themselves. It applied to every marriage of a Catholic, even when marrying someone who was not of his or her faith.
It extends to the whole Church the impediment of clandestinity, which previously had been in force only in certain parts; it makes a marriage invalid unless performed by a parish priest in his own parish, or by a bishop in his own diocese, or by a delegate of either, in the presence of at least two witnesses.
No pastor and no bishop can validly perform a marriage outside the limits of his own territory without the permission of the parish priest or bishop of the place.
If a pastor or a bishop, within the limits of his territory, should join a couple, neither of whom resides therein, the marriage is valid but unlawful, being an infringement on the rights of the pastor of the parties.
Under certain circumstances a valid and licit Catholic marriage may take place without a priest. See also, marriage without a priest.
Marriages must be registered in the place or places where the contracting parties were baptized.
Under the present matrimonial laws the blessing of the union by a priest is not, in certain circumstances, essential to the contract and the sacrament. If a Catholic couple wish to marry in a place where for a month there will be no priest qualified to join them in matrimony, they may simply express their mutual consent before two witnesses, and thereby they are validly and lawfully married. In danger of death, this may also be done even when there is no such expected delay in the coming of the priest.

NEW LEGISLATION ON CLANDESTINE MARRIAGE
Through the decree "Ne Temere," issued 2 August, 1907, by the Congregation of the Council, in conjunction with the pontifical commission for the new canonical code, important modifications have been made regarding the form of betrothal and of marriage. This decree was issued to render easier for the universal Church the substantial form of matrimony, to prevent more efficiently the too numerous, hasty, and clandestine marriages, and to make it easier for ecclesiastical courts to decide as to the existence or non-existence of a previous engagement to marry (see ESPOUSALS). With the exception in regard to Germany noted below, this legislation went into effect at Easter (19 April), 1908, and is thenceforth binding on all Catholics throughout the world, any contrary law or custom being totally abolished. According to this decree, marriages of Catholics are henceforth null unless celebrated before a duly qualified priest (or the bishop of the diocese) and at least two witnesses. The same is true of marriages in which either of the parties is or has been a Catholic. The law, however, does not bind those who are not and never have been Catholics. Priests charged with the care of souls in the territory where a marriage is contracted, or any approved priest whom one charged with the care of souls or whom the bishop of the diocese delegates, are qualified to assist at nuptials. Marriages contracted in a parish, district, or diocese, other than the one to which the contracting parties belong, are valid so long as the pastor of the place or his delegate assists at such marriages. However, priests are forbidden to assist at such marriages unless one of two conditions is verified. Either, one of the parties must have resided a month in the territory where the marriage occurs, or else, one of the parties must have obtained the permission of the priest or bishop under whose jurisdiction such a party resides. In cases of serious necessity such permission is not required.
The following conditions are enjoined by the decree "Ne Temere", not for the validity of the marriages of Catholics, but to bring them into complete conformity with the demands of right order. Marriages ought to be celebrated in the parish of the bride. If the contracting parties wish to marry elsewhere, they must ask the pastor of the place, or some priest authorized by him or by the bishop, to assist at the marriage, and one of the parties must have resided there for a month. When parties find this procedure inconvenient, one of them must obtain permission from his or her parish priest or bishop to contract marriage elsewhere. In such cases the parties will be obliged to give the necessary assurance regarding their freedom to marry, and to comply with the usual conditions for receiving the Sacrament of Matrimony. When parties have no fixed abode and are travelling throughout the country, they can enter wedlock only before a priest authorized by the bishop to assist at their marriage.
The Sacred Congregation of the Council declared (11 February, 1908) that the dispensations granted in the Bull "Provida" of 18 January, 1906, for Germany will still remain in force. According to this Bull, while Catholic marriages in Germany were made subject to the decree "Tametsi", mixed marriages and those of Protestants among themselves were exempted

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jan 14 - 07:45 AM

Because you have made them up, and have been proven beyond any doubt to have done so to have done so, you brain-dead.

But they are here in the thread Jim!
I do not make shit up or lie remember.

Alibhai-Brown, Lord Ahmed, and Mohamed Shafiq were the ones I quoted at length (apart from Anne Cryer, Jack Straw and the Pakistani Ch4 journalist).
They all said the offending came from aspects of the culture.


The actual quotes, are in a string of posts on this thread starting 24th October 2013 4.44AM
Just scroll.

We have had many threads about clerical abuse.
This is the only one about religious persecution.
That is all I will be discussing.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jan 14 - 09:18 AM

Jim, you have posted elsewhere, but chosen not to explain your bizarre claim that the quotes do not exist when they clearly do!

Perhaps you mean the people do not exist!

Perhaps you are mad.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jan 14 - 10:02 AM

"But they are here in the thread Jim!"
Then it should be a simple matter for you to cut-'n-paste anybody having ever mentioned "all male Pakintanis being culturally implanted to rape women and having to resist that implant - your statement, nobody elses.
"I do not make shit up or lie remember.
No claim not to - a lie in itself.
"That is all I will be discussing."
Absolutely wonderful - you are a liability to any discussion you take part in and monopolise - but your open refusal to to discuss Christian persecution when it is Christians doing the persecuting sums up your agenda-driven hypocrisy perfectly
What on earth makes you think your participation is necessary or even desirable on any discussion - feel free to go away and leave the rest of us to it.
We don't need religious extremists
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jan 14 - 10:11 AM

I welcome discussion of religious persecution by any group including Christians, but I will not be party to making this just another thread about clerical abuse.

Jim the quotes blame the culture.
My crime is to believe them?
That makes me racist?

I ASK YOU AGAIN WHY YOU DISBELIEVE THEM?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jan 14 - 10:48 AM

"Jim the quotes blame the culture."
Then produce them and let's see how that stand up next to your own - simple really.
You have totally invented support for your horrific claim, your failure to produce one single example of anybody (not counting your BNP et al mates) ever having anything resembling your sick claim is proof that no such support exists, not could exist from those you insist made them, and your repetation of your views makes you the lying racist that you are
Solution simple - show us what they said - nobody has ever claimed that "all male Pakistanis are culturally implanted to make them have sex with underage women", other than you and your sicko friends - not one - your sick invention and yours alone. .
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Jan 14 - 12:23 PM

"Apples", Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Jan 14 - 12:39 PM

     ?????

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jan 14 - 01:00 PM

""Apples", Jim?"
I was enquiring if you still believed Keith's input to be sensible and articulate in view of his rather obvious attempts to dig himself out of the hole he continues to dig for himself by blatantly lying.
C'mon Mike - there comes point when even the best fairy godmother has to loosen the apron-strings.
Kids, who'd have 'em?
Jim carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Jan 14 - 02:50 PM

But why ? A ref to Alice In Wonderland {"Sure I'm here, Your Honour' digging for apples, Your Honour"?

Or what?

Still can't quite see what you are accusing Keith of, precisely. Or why your knickers are getting into such a twist about whatever it is. Mrs Thatcher was misunderstood re her remark on society & you lot still go on about it erroneously, missing her meaning. & so you do with K's extrapolation of what he read, for which he has provided you with precise refs. Your tone still strikes me as oddly hysterical in the matter, I fear. But this is a fight between you & him & I'm loth to get really involved in it. He's none of my responsibility, & I none of his, for all your fantasies, which are getting more than somewhat tiresome & tedious, I feel bound to say.

Still don't get the  ref, tho.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jan 14 - 03:30 PM

Jim, the quotes are already on this thread just a few weeks ago.
You have the date and time.
They ALL blame the culture.
It can not be racist to believe them.
I think everyone is effected by their culture, and most people would agree, as Kevin explicitly did.

For that you call me "one of the vilest racists and bigots I have ever come across" and accuse me of being "BNP."

That is the only post of mine you have identified as racist, and it is not in the least racist.
You have no cause to say those things about me.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 04:49 AM

"Still can't quite see what you are accusing Keith of, precisely."
Then you are as stupid as he is
I am accusing him of lying by inventing statements that he claims to have been made by public figures to defend his claim that every single male Pakistani is a risk to all underage young women by way of their cultural implant.
He claims that to have been said by politicians and social worker - it wasn't
He claims to have put it up, he hasn't.
He has been asked to put it up so that we can asses it - he refuses to do so.
No public figure has ever claimed a "cultural implant"
No public figure has ever attempted to implicate the entire "male Pakistani population" as a potention risk to young woomanhood - that is the filth that the Nazis, the Ku Klux Klan and such scum used to carry out their crimes.
I'm accusing Keith of being a racist and a liar - it is withing his power to prove me wrong
If you wish to take his side - it lies within your power to prove his case by producing the eveidence
Feel free
Keith - racism and sectarianism goes through you entire postings on the subject of British Muslims, Israel and Ireland goes through your entire output like Blackpool goes through rock.
It dates back to your claim that aids sufferers coming into Britain should not receive treatment - and like Topsy "it just growed"
You are a racist, pure and simple and you have persisted in using this forum to peddle your racism
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 05:10 AM

Again, Jim: I am not engaging in this thread particularly, as we have been over & over this ground so often before that I am feeling just a bit punchy. I agree to differ with you about K's attitudes & asseverations; even if that does leave me 'as bad as he is' -- a bit of a question-beg, surely, as ¿¿how bad he is?? is just the point at issue, innit!...

But I would still like to know what you meant about the !? Please.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 05:10 AM

By the way
The non-existent case of Keith ever being able to produce such a statement by any public figure would not make one iota of difference
The statement that "i now believe that all male Pakistanis".... carry an implant that makes them prone to underage sex is a profoundly racist statement whoever makes it - Keith has put it forward as his view - nobody else's - "I now believe" and he has confirmed, on this thread and elsewhere, that it remains his view.
This not only confirms him as a racist - his refusal to reproduce evidence here (he's good at cut-''n-pastes - his sole talent it would appear) brands him as a liar
His plea that he only believes it because others told him that they do also calls into question his mental faculties.
He claims to have been a teacher - god protect our children from such teachers!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 05:20 AM

Told you, Jim. Not playing. Not listening.

☞〠☜

But come on, now, worrabout the ?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 05:21 AM

"I do now believe..... but only because of the testimony of all those people"

Those people DID say it came from the culture.
Culture DOES effect everyone.
Saying that is not racist, or else you are accusing many other good people of that evil.

I have never made a racist post because I am no racist.
That is why you only ever produce that one, 3 year old post, and you have done so every few weeks ever since.

We have been asked over and over to drop it, but still you bring it up every few weeks.
It is a deranged obsession with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 06:14 AM

"Told you, Jim. Not playing. Not listening. "
Very wise.
In your own interests, butt out of this shit - told you to get yourself along spoon a long time ago.
"Those people DID say it came from the culture."
None of them said any such thing, they certainly did not claim "cultural implants" and no-one (apart from Nazi-inspired extremist racist sites) has ever attempted to implicate entire populations in sexual crimes, the way you have n- it is your invention entirely and it remains a deeply racist statement, whoever said it.
As I said, your claiming to have only said it because somebody else did is a sign of mental deficiency in itself, inventing things that somebody didn't say, even more so - repeatedly refusing to defend your argument by producing those "quotes" gives you a mental 'full house'.
Spreading race and cultural hatred the way you consistently do - now that's what I call a "deranged obsession".
Have a good rally at Nuremberg if you ever get the opportunity to attend one.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 06:16 AM

I'd be fascinated to know the criteria Mr Hertford would use to recognise deranged obsession?

Judging by his posts on this and certain other threads.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 06:56 AM

Jim the quotes are on this thread (starting 24th October 2013 4.44AM) and they do blame the culture.

Denying that FACT makes you a fool.
Anyone can see for themselves.

Culture effects us all.
No racism in that.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 06:59 AM

"Told you, Jim. Not playing. Not listening. "
'Very wise.
In your own interests, butt out of this shit - told you to get yourself along spoon a long time ago.'
.,,.
Yay, right. So the parting shot on my part in my intervention in the Keith'n'Carroll Show --

I leave the game becoz it is going nowhere, Fed up with the everlasting "No I didn't"; "Yes you did so nyyyaaahhh".

☞〠☜

Final statement: Still think Keith has about 95% more of the right of it than Jim has. Shall continue to think so, without intervening again to say so.

Live with it, Jim. You don't really care what I think on such matters as these [as distinct from above-line ones]; any more that I care what you do. See you sometime in a folk thread ~~ mebbe...

Ta-ra

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 08:00 AM

Facts to be ignored by Keith:
22% of the world population is Muslim
If having sex with underage women had anything whatever to do with being Muslim, underage would be predominantly a Muslim crime throughout the world - it isn't
There are 1.5 million Muslims in Britain.
If having sex with underage women had anything whatever to do with being Muslim, underage would be predominantly a Muslim crime throughout Britain - it isn't
There are reckoned to be many thousands of internet sites in Britain devoted to underage fetishist pornography
None have been identified as Muslim as far as I know.
If anybody wishes to link sex crimes with any particular race or culture, peodophelic crimes such as sex with and rape of children, incest and underage sex has been overwhelmingly identified and an indigenous crime, therefore it is overwhelmingly Christian.
The only link that has ever been made between paedophilia and any particular religion is that of the cases of clerical abuse by Christian clergymen, which has been strongly argued to be due to the celibacy rule imposed by the Catholic church - if that is the case, these are not cultural crimes, but criminal acts caused by deliberate imposed policy - a Christian crime.
Judges, social workers, police - even home secretaries such as Jack Straw (Keith's star witness) have warned strongly that no link should ever be made between the acts of a handful of young criminals, "testosterone-fizzing young men" (quote; Jack Straw), and the race or religion of those concerned.
Fact; whatever way Keith attempts to manipulate and censor this discussion on "Christian Persecution" - he and he alone, (now his good fairy seems to have done a flit) stands out as the overwhelmingly Christian persecutor of people of other faiths and religions - a true "Christian persecutor" in every sense - 'roll over Torquemada'.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 08:09 AM

Jim, you know, because I have told you many times, that not only have I never linked that crime with Islam, but I said at the time specifically that it was not.
I also said that I thought young girls were targeted as "easy meat" not because of paedophilia.

I also said that only a tiny minority had any involvment.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 08:13 AM

"You don't really care what I think on such matters "
I don't Mike - your appear to lack Keith's bottle (or stupidity) and much prefer hit-and-run sniping from the sidelines and refusing to justify your somewhat mindless extremist opinions
Whether my arguments with him are pointless - they appear to have dragged him and you out of your closets.
I take no credit for having exposed him as the racist and the liar that he is - that's entirely due to his own efforts
can't see him ever being regarded as anything other than the mindless bigot he is - well worth persevering as far as I'm concerned.
Byee
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 08:24 AM

Jim the quotes are on this thread (starting 24th October 2013 4.44AM) and they do blame the culture.

Denying that FACT makes you a fool.
Anyone can see for themselves.

Culture effects us all.
No racism in that.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 09:34 AM

"The violence targeting Christmas, Easter, and Sunday observance is emblematic of a broader pandemic of anti-Christian hatred. According to a Pew survey, Christians face restrictions and hostility in 111 countries, but Islamist extremism remains "the worst persecutor of the worldwide church." Their anti-Christian animus is often clerically promoted and judicially sanctioned. Islamists have attacked hundreds of Christian institutions; tens of thousands of Christians have been murdered, injured or imprisoned; and many others have been subject to torture, rape and even enslavement"

Protecting the world's Christians

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 09:56 AM

Same page (Ottawa Citizen)

" As noted by Rupert Shortt, religion editor of the Times Literary Supplement, Christianity is "close to extinction" in the region of its origin. The communities of biblical Bethlehem and Ramallah, once heavily or almost exclusively Christian, are moribund. Istanbul, home to two million Christians in 1920, now hosts only a few thousand believers. Gaza's community is close to disappearing, while besieged communities in Syria, Iraq and Lebanon are being depleted. Likewise, Egyptian Copts are fleeing the land they have called home for almost two millennia."

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST, Musket
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 10:27 AM

Bobad.

Dangerous lying bullshit.

The drive to blame is a two way street. Shame on you for falling for sectarian scare mongering. Swap the titles round and read it again, it is just as valid, and just as scare mongering.

Keith on the other hand, I expect nothing better.

Once our less objective contributors learn the difference between objective evidence and hand picked facts to support a stance, the sooner this thread can bugger off.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 10:53 AM

"No racism in that."
Suggesting that "all male Pakistanis" pose a risk to our young women because of their culture is as racist as it comes.
If you are not blaming Islam you are blaming Pakistanis - which particular brand of racism/cultural bigotry to you prefer to be identified with?
You have been given the statistical facts on underage sex and child paedophila - I take it you believe that to be off topic and not discussable here - would you care to explain why it isn't dominant thoughout the Iaslamic world - no - I thought not?
Would you care to explain why, if underage sex, paedophelia and incest is prominently an indigenous problem in Britain, it is not down to British culture, especially if it a cultural problem among Muslims, as you insist - no - I thought not?
Would you care to explain why, as you set such store on Jack Straw and all the other so-called 'experts', you totally ignore their actual expert advice that no connection should be made between the behaviour of a tiny handful of young criminals and ether he race or culture of the Muslim community as a whole - no - I thought not?
Yo away, you pathetic little ranter
Lie down, your dead again.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 11:00 AM

Jim the quotes are on this thread (starting 24th October 2013 4.44AM) AND THEY DO BLAME THE CULTURE.
NOT ME.
THEM.

Denying that FACT makes you a fool.
Anyone can see for themselves.

Culture effects us all.
No racism in that.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 04:41 PM

"Those people DID say it came from the culture.
Culture DOES effect everyone.
Saying that is not racist, or else you are accusing many other good people of that evil."

They also added the cautionary comment that this should not be taken as meaning that the grooming and abuse was a Pakistani crime, a point which you have first ignored and later denied.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 04:50 PM

"A man who ate another man's flesh in the Central African Republic has told the BBC he was seeking "revenge" for the murder of family members.

Ouandja Magloire, who calls himself "Mad Dog", was in a Christian mob who attacked a Muslim in the capital.

He said he had been "angry" because Muslims killed his pregnant wife, his sister-in-law and her baby.

Sectarian violence has been on the rise since rebels installed the country's first Muslim leader in March 2013.

No-one intervened'

"Mad Dog" told the BBC's Paul Wood he had seen his victim sitting on a minibus and decided to follow him.

More and more people joined him until he was at the head of a mob of some 20 youths, he said.

They forced the bus driver to stop and dragged the Muslim man out on the street, where he was beaten and stabbed before being set on fire.

Footage of the incident shows "Mad Dog" eating the man's leg, our correspondent says.

According to eyewitnesses, no-one tried to intervene.

Acts of cannibalism are rare in CAR, where sectarianism is a recent development, our correspondent says.

Mr Djotodia's Seleka rebels have been accused of targeting Christian civilians, leading to the creation of self-defence groups known as anti-balaka.

Those groups have in turn been accused of atrocities against members of the Muslim minority.2

From K A of H's favourite source, the BBC

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 04:55 PM

The last post was mine.

K A of H will now explain that this attack was in retaliation, and he will be correct, in that the man's religion was a sideline, but I believe that merely makes the case that religion cannot be assumed to be the reason for attacking minorities.

In this case in particular, Muslims are the minority.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 01:12 AM

The sectarian violence in CAR has been referred to a few times here.
It began with massacres of Christians by Muslim militia.

This man behaved like a beast.
I hope I would behave better if my pregnant wife, sister and her baby were murdered with machetes.

Guest (Jim?)
They also added the cautionary comment that this should not be taken as meaning that the grooming and abuse was a Pakistani crime, a point which you have first ignored and later denied.

Please produce that cautionary comment from the quotes.
It was a very specific kind of abuse and the perpetrators were mainly from a small demographic.
In the quotes, explanations related to culture are offered for that fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 02:26 AM

Rather pathetic Keith?

If your argument had any basis, surely you could have done better than that?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 02:29 AM

What argument?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 02:46 AM

'Pathetic' rt back 2U, Ian. If your animadversion is to have any force, you had better specify where you find this 'pathos', or wherein you perceive it as lying.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 02:57 AM

"No racism in that."
You racism was in implicating an entire racial group with your "implant" claims
You have never read enough to pass an opinion on culture - you are a racist half-wit (aren't all racists?)
Your continuing confirmation that your views haven't changed is much appreciated - you remain a racist half wit.
Never mind - you appear to have at least one soul-mate in Mike
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 03:05 AM

Jim the quotes are on this thread (starting 24th October 2013 4.44AM) AND THEY DO BLAME THE CULTURE.
NOT ME, THEM.
I see no reason to disbelieve them.
You will not tell us why you disbelieve, except you deny it is because of their race.

Culture effects us all.
No racism in that.
I am no racist, have never made a racist post, and you have no cause to make those vicious accusations.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 07:36 AM

It wouldn't be Aldi own brand would it perchance Michael?

I ask because I don't understand your last post, but as the random pressing of keys spelt my name out, I thought it best to get clarification.

Keith A Hole of Hertford keeps saying Chridtians don't massacre Muslims. Someone picked one of the many reports from BBC and posted it. Rather than acknowledging it, he waffled on changing the subject.

That's what I called pathetic. I could have said the sky contains clouds but focused for once.

Aldi is stronger than the others. Tesco do one that gives less liquor mortise.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 08:07 AM

Keith A Hole of Hertford keeps saying Chridtians don't massacre Muslims.

I have never made such a claim.
I have repeatedly asked for examples to be produced.
I do claim that Christians are suffering persecution more than any other group in recent years, and evidence of that has been presented.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 08:34 AM

It is probable that massacres of Muslims have occurred in recent days in CAR, but none have been reported yet.
The current sectarian violence there started when Muslim militia massacred Christians.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Not musket
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 08:36 AM

Not reporters and journalists have not reported the not happened massacres of Muslims that don't exist.

Give it up Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 08:37 AM

Huh?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 08:45 AM

"I have never made such a claim."
By asking such a question, you imply they don't - you know bloody well Christians perscute anybody they are allowed to when they are allowed to, as does most religions.
By the way - you have yet to show anybody having claimed "all male Pakistanis - implants"
I doubt if it has escaped anybody's notice that you are responding to a question you haven't been asked.
Nobody has asked you your opinion on culture, you aren't qualified and are far too bigoted to have anything to say on what is an extremely complicated subject.
You claimed all Pakistanis were implanted - nobody else did - you haven't a clue how culture works; you need to have read a book for that - sorry
Please stop trying to wriggle out of your racist statement by diverting the discussion aaway from it

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 08:50 AM

Two items from today's Irish Times
I don't suppose for one moment that persecution by Christians counts for much in your book (and it certainly won't raise a twitch on your nodding dog's sliding scale), but below is an indication that the Christian clerical abuse shit has hit the U.K. fan and is likely to run and run
Jim Carroll

BROTHERS APOLOGISE FOR ABUSE AND SUFFERING OF BOYS IN THEIR CARE

SISTERS OF NAZARETH 'APPALLED AND SHOCKED' BY TESTIMONY GIVEN ABOUT THEIR ORDER

DAN KEENAN in Banbridge
The De La Salle Brothers have apologised unreservedly for abuse and suffering inflicted on children in their care.
The inquiry into historical abuse at a range of residential care homes in Northern Ireland heard senior counsel for the reli¬gious order offer the apology yesterday during the second day of oral hearings.
Kevin Rooney QC, for the De La Salle Brothers, said: "Broth¬ers recognise the immense pain and suffering and damage caused to those victims who have been abused."
He added: "Brothers recog¬nise the sense of betrayal that the victims have experienced and the violation of trust caused by certain brothers with¬in the order. They recognise that there have been failures to protect the victims.
"De La Salle order deeply re¬grets the acts of some of its members which have irrepara¬bly damaged the reputation of the order and undermines the selfless care provided by so many of the brothers in pursu¬ance of their vocation."
The coming months will not be easy for the brothers or for victims, he told the inquiry.
Further admissions
The inquiry, chaired by Sir An¬thony Hart, also heard admis¬sions from senior counsel on be¬half of a second religious order. Turlough Montague QC, repre¬senting the Sisters of Nazareth, said members of the order were "appalled and shocked" by some of the testimonies that have come to light so far.
The sisters "have already be¬gun their period of reflection on the past".
"Former residents have come to them over the past number of years to tell them of their unhappiness in their homes and they have been ap¬palled and shocked at the state¬ments of those persons who have come before the inquiry to date to tell of their experiences in their homes," Mr Montague said.
"I also wish to state on behalf of the Sisters of Nazareth that they recognise the hurt that has been caused to some children in their care. They apologise un¬reservedly for any abuse suf¬fered by children in their care. They go forward hoping that les¬sons will be learned not just by them in the provision of care but also by carers generally in society and the wider society at large."
Moira Smyth, appearing for the North's Health and Social Care Board, told the inquiry's chairman: "Where the board failed to meet acceptable stand¬ards for the care and upbring¬ing of children in institutions, and that resulted in wrongdo¬ing, the board is sorry and of¬fers its apologies to the individu¬als concerned."
BETTER FUTURE
The sharing of experiences and close scrutiny of those in institu¬tions should assist in develop¬ing a better future for children who live in residential care, she said.
Short opening statements were also made by representa¬tion for other agencies or bod¬ies - the so-called core partici¬pants in the inquiry. These in¬clude children's charity Bar nardos, the Stormont Depart¬ment of Justice and Depart¬ment of Health, Social Services and Public Safety.
LEARNING FROM PAST
Claire Bates, for Barnardos, said the organisation was com¬mitted to learning from the past.
Francis O'Reilly, represent¬ing the Stormont Department of Health, said access by the in¬quiry to records was granted without hesitation and further assistance would be freely giv¬en.
For the Department of Jus¬tice, Martin Wolfe pledged "co-operation and openness", adding that a collegiate re¬sponse by all "core partici¬pants" would help ensure the in¬quiry met its objectives.
Sir Anthony said the next public hearing of the inquiry on January 27th would address two residential institutions in Derry in accordance with the in¬quiry's plan to deal with evi¬dence in "modules".
The first witnesses are expected to be heard on January 28th.


NORTHERN CARE HOMES 'SURVIVORS OF A BYGONE AGE'
DAN KEENAN
The North's residential care homes were reminiscent of "a bygone age" that had not moved with the times, an in¬quiry into historical abuse in Co Down has heard.
Senior counsel for the inquiry Christine Smith QC told the sec¬ond day of public hearings: "The evidence suggests that those homes operated as outdated survivors of a bygone age."
Reforms aligned with the in¬troduction of the welfare state in Britain after the second World War were not fully imple¬mented, she said.
She illustrated this by refer¬ring to one unnamed witness who has given details to the in¬quiry of her treatment at the hands of residential home workers following bed-wetting incidents. This witness said that, as a child, she had had her nose rubbed in the wet mat¬tress and forced to take a cold baths using Jeyes Fluid, Ms Smith told the inquiry.
The senior counsel had been outlining the historical and leg¬islative background to child¬care during the years 1922 to 1995, the years under examina¬tion by the inquiry under its terms of reference.
HISTORICAL ENVIRONMENT
During the final day of her open¬ing submission to the inquiry, Ms Smith detailed the histori¬cal and legal environment in which 13 residential care institu¬tions under examination by the inquiry evolved.
The inquiry "will be a lengthy and at times difficult process", Ms Smith warned. She went on to pose a range of questions that she said went to the heart of the inquiry's task.
The issue is whether the facts point to systems failure in insti¬tutions responsible for the care of vulnerable children, she said.
"What was known, by whom, when and what was done about it?" she asked. "What steps were taken to avoid repetition, were police involved and, if not, why not?"
She said the inquiry needed to establish what abuse, if any, took place in homes. Future hearings would examine what abuse was alleged and how com¬plaints were addressed at institu¬tional and governmental level.
Accommodation provision for children would be exam¬ined. Questions would be asked if such facilities were adequate and kept in repair, and whether siblings were allowed to stay to¬gether.
She said funding arrangements would be investigate; and how, if at all, state and vol¬untary institutions differed ii their funding arrangements. It was important to examine how much reliance there was on charitable donations and whether there was any difference to per capita payments and the state and other institution;
BACKGROUND CHECKS
Staffing levels, the adequacy training, vetting and background checks would all co: within the remit of the inquiry.
Issues relating to healthcare, illness and injury care would also arise, she said, as would the levels of health qualification among staff charged with looking after children.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 09:07 AM

I imply no such thing Jim.
I just said I believe such massacres have happened.

Nobody has asked you your opinion on culture,

Good, because I have not the knowledge to form one.
The people I quote do, and I ask again why you refuse to believe them.

If they are right, the offending is due to the culture, and we are ALL influenced by our culture.

Where is the racism?
Where the justification for all that vile abuse?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 10:47 AM

"Good, because I have not the knowledge to form one."
Please stop stating the glaringly obvious
"The people I quote do, and I ask again why you refuse to believe them."
The people you have quoted have stressed that there is no proven connection whatever between underage sex and it would be wrong and totally irresponsible to make such a connection.
The police, judiciary and social workers said exactly the same, as did the limited official survey that was carried out a couple of years ag 'no evidence exists to state that there is a connection between these crimes and the religion or race of the criminals'
Yet you have made such a connection over and over again and you continue to do so - one again, read your owbn cut-'n-pastes.
Get your nasty little arse and try to recognise the damage you do to the people you accuse of being "implanted" - would you like to live next door to someone who is likely to sexually assault young girls if they "didn't manage yo suppress their urges".
If you don't care about this - give a thought to the mind-numbing exhibition you have presented of yourself.
Saying any community is "implanted" as you have is utterly evil racism, that is what you said and that is what you are continuing to say.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 11:27 AM

The people I quoted all state clearly that the offending is due to the culture, and we are ALL influenced by our culture.

No racism there.
No justification for all your vile abuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 11:32 AM

The people I quoted all state clearly that the offending is due to the culture...

Just like "all historians" agreed with you in the WWI thread, right Keith? Idiot.

Jim, you're trying to teach the pig to sing, again.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 12:02 PM

"The people I quoted all state clearly that the offending is due to the culture, and we are ALL influenced by our culture."
The people you quoted said that it would be totally wrong to draw any racial or religious culture conclusions on the existing evidence.
You have been given Jack Straw's statement on "testosterone fizzing young men" - want it again?
You have been given the statement of those who carried out the official survey on the absence of evidence to show any connection between those involved in underage sex and their race and culture - want it again?
You have been given the statements by the north of England and Scottish police and judiciary saying it would be wrong to draw either racial or religious conclusions on the behaviour of a handful of criminals - want them again?
You've had the statements of the others on the same lines - same offer
I'm in the process of digging out the statements of the others - shouldn't take too long
For a self confessed ignoramous on the matter of culture, you take an awful lot on yourself by contradicting your own witnesses.
YOUR RACISM LIES IN YOUR DOING SO - AND IN DESCRIBING "EVERY MALE PAKISTANI AS A POTENTIAL PAEDOPHILE - WHICH YOU ARE NOW TRYING TO SHUFFLE AROUND
You are a crude, thuggish, unintelligent racist Keith - but keep it up, it's pleasurable allowing to to prove it - as the lady said "you'll never eat lunch in this town again", you've made certain of that yourself and the longer you continue with this farce the truer that becomes.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 12:17 PM

Mandy Rice-Davies.

Now, um, er,

--whatever could have put her into my mind, I wonder?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 12:35 PM

These are the people you have based your entire case on and the circumstances in which they said whatever they said
The refer only to the "rape gangs", (ie, the handful of criminals that have been involved in pimping women for sec NOT THE PAKISTANI, MUSLIM CULTURE, NOT "ALL MALE PAKISTANIS", NOBODY ELSE OTHER THAN THE CRIMINALS INVOLVED. Single-handedly you have taken the statements arising from this case and you have deliberately set out to slur the entire Pakistani male in British - every male Pakistani on this planet, in fact
Nowhere have any of your "witnesses" said what you have claimed them to have said, in fact, at one time or the other (as with your Irish famine "witnesses") they have said exactly the opposite.
Nowhere has any single one of them ever made the statements you have attributed to them - you have carefully doctored your evidence in an attempt to prove your horrific suggestion - 'there is no Pakistani Muslim on this planet who can be trusted near an underage woman'.
That, as far as I am concerned, is an act of pure evil on your part, a level to which even the lowest of the low racist sites would not dare to sink to.
You have deliberately ignored (not even denied) what has actually been said and invented your own scenario by selection and distortion
You are a truly evil bastard
Jim Carroll

Muslims back Jack Straw on Pakistani rape gangs
'These young men do not see white girls as equal, as valuable as they see their sisters,' says Muslim leader
BY Tim Edwards LAST UPDATED AT 07:32 ON Tue 11 Jan 2011
Jack Straw is not looking quite as lonely as he was last Friday when he made the controversial statement that there was a "specific problem" involving British men of Pakistani descent grooming young white girls for sex because they think they are "easy meat".
An initial burst of outrage, led by fellow Labour MP Keith Vaz, has been followed by more sympathetic statements from Muslim commentators and women's rights campaigners.
Straw, the MP for Blackburn, made his comments after the jailing of two men of Pakistani heritage, Mohammed Liaqat and Abid Saddique, for abusing girls between the ages of 12-18
whom they had plucked off the streets of Derby.
Leicester Crown Court had heard how the two men, both married fathers, were part of a gang of "sexual predators" who cruised the streets, approaching white women as young as 12, who they then plied with drink and drugs before grooming them for sex.
Straw told the BBC: "These young men... act like any other young men, they're fizzing and popping with testosterone, they want some outlet for that, but Pakistani heritage girls are off-limits and they are expected to marry a Pakistani girl from Pakistan, typically.
"So they then seek other avenues and they see these young women, white girls who are vulnerable, some of them in care... who they think are easy meat."
Straw's remarks were criticised as "pretty dangerous" by Keith Vaz, while others went further, accusing him of acting as a recruitment
officer for far-right groups.
Martin Narey, chief executive of Barnardos, said: "I certainly
don't think it's just a Pakistani thing. My staff would say there is
an over-representation of people from ethnic minority groups among perpetrators - Afghans, people from Arabic nations, Pakistanis. But it's not just one nation."
But Straw is now receiving support, not least from members of the
Asian community.
Mohammed Shafiq, director of the Muslim Ramadhan Foundation youth group, said: "These young men do not see white
girls as equal, as valuable, of high moral standing as they see their
own daughters, and their own sisters, and I think that's wrong. It's a form of racism that's abhorrent in a civilised society."
"I first raised this two or three years ago and I got a lot of stick
within the community from people who said I was doing the work of the BNP and stigmatising them."
The feminist Muslim journalist Yasmin Alibhai-Brown has also backed
Straw. Writing in the Independent about the Derby gang she says: "The criminals feel they did no wrong. These girls to them are trash, asking to be wasted – unlike their own women, who must be kept from the disorderly world out there."
She calls on Asians to examine "what lies beneath these crimes".
Earlier, Ann Cryer, former Labour MP for Keighley, West Yorkshire, who campaigns for women's rights, said Straw should be commended for bringing up a problem which, she claimed, Muslim MPs were not prepared to confront.
Said Cryer: "The vast majority of young Asian men are fine, but there's a minority who do not behave properly towards white women and sweeping it under the carpet will only make matters worse. If these Asian men behaved in the same way to young Muslim girls they'd end up in very hot water in their community."
Even before Straw made his provocative statement, there were calls for an inquiry into the racial basis of gangs who groom underage girls for sex on the street.
Last week the Times published its own survey into the ethnicity of those convicted of on-street grooming. It found that over the past 13 years there had been 17 court prosecutions by northern and Midlands police forces involving such crimes.
Of the 56 people found guilty, three were white and 53 were Asian.
Detective Chief Inspector Alan Edwards said: "To stop this type of
crime you need to start talking about it, but everyone's been too
scared to address the ethnicity factor.
"No one wants to stand up and say that Pakistani guys in some parts of the country are recruiting young white girls and passing them around their relatives for sex, but we need to stop being worried about the racial complication."
The Home Office says that officials from the Child Exploitation and
Online Protection Centre (CEOP) are currently looking at the issue but it is an ongoing inquiry and may not be looking into whether there is any link to ethnicity. CEOP, says the Home Office, will report back "in due course".

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 12:49 PM

No offense, but as an occasional reader of this thread, could you post some stuff in a baby blue or perhaps a chartreuse? I find the red has too many overtones alluding to politics. Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 12:59 PM

Michael would say that, wouldn't he?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 01:13 PM

"I find the red has too many overtones alluding to politics. Thank you."
Sorry - not intended - I'll try green next time, but wouldn't help Keith read what's posted any better - would it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 02:41 PM

Perhaps it's time to nowc this on the head altogether
"Alibhai-Brown, Lord Ahmed, and Mohamed Shafiq were the ones I quoted at length (apart from Anne Cryer, Jack Straw and the Pakistani Ch4 journalist)."

Other witnesses
Ann Cryer
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1436867.stm

"Lord Ahmed,
Nazir Ahmed, Baron Ahmed (born 24 April 1957) is a member of the British House of Lords. He was appointed on the recommendation of Prime Minister Tony Blair in 1998. Along with Lord Alli, Baroness Warsi and Baroness Uddin, Lord Ahmed is one of the four current Muslim peers in the United Kingdom. Many of his political activities relate to the Muslim community both in the UK and abroad and he has often attracted controversy. He was suspended for a time from the Labour Party in 2012 after he was misquoted as placing a bounty on U.S. President Barack Obama and former President George W. Bush.
In 2013, Lord Ahmed was suspended again, this time for antisemitism; stemming from a report in The Times that he blamed a Jewish conspiracy for a prison sentence he received following a fatal motorway crash. The newspaper revealed that he appeared on Pakistani television and stated that he was imprisoned in 2009 because of pressure on the courts from Jews "who own newspapers and TV channels". He resigned from the Labour Party on 13 May."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazir_Ahmed,_Baron_Ahmed
This doesn't mention that he threatened to invade Westminster with a thousand Muslims if a piece of legislation he was opposing was passed.
Clearly a man to be listened to and respected -


Mohamed Shafik
Shafiq says that a "tiny minority" of Pakistani men feel white girls are worthless and immoral — and can be abused with impunity.
"They know if they took someone from the Asian community, it pretty quickly is going to be found out," he says. "But those white girls are available, so they think they can get away with it."
The men in the Rochdale sex ring were remarkable only in their ordinariness. They were part of British life, but on the fringes — the sort of people most Britons don't really notice when they pass them on the street."

How are we doing so far - more to come
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 02:44 PM

Jim and Greg, if you read the quotes you will see that you are wrong and I am right.

The people I quoted all state clearly that the offending is due to the culture, and we are ALL influenced by our culture.

Your cut/paste in black text supports exactly my case.

"Jack Straw is not looking quite as lonely as he was last Friday when he made the controversial statement that there was a "specific problem" involving British men of Pakistani descent grooming young white girls for sex because they think they are "easy meat".
An initial burst of outrage, led by fellow Labour MP Keith Vaz, has been followed by more sympathetic statements from Muslim commentators and women's rights campaigners."

"But Straw is now receiving support, not least from members of the
Asian community.
Mohammed Shafiq, director of the Muslim Ramadhan Foundation youth group, said: "These young men do not see white
girls as equal, as valuable, of high moral standing as they see their
own daughters, and their own sisters, and I think that's wrong. It's a form of racism that's abhorrent in a civilised society."
"I first raised this two or three years ago and I got a lot of stick
within the community from people who said I was doing the work of the BNP and stigmatising them."
The feminist Muslim journalist Yasmin Alibhai-Brown has also backed
Straw. Writing in the Independent about the Derby gang she says: "The criminals feel they did no wrong. These girls to them are trash, asking to be wasted – unlike their own women, who must be kept from the disorderly world out there."
She calls on Asians to examine "what lies beneath these crimes".
Earlier, Ann Cryer, former Labour MP for Keighley, West Yorkshire, who campaigns for women's rights, said Straw should be commended for bringing up a problem which, she claimed, Muslim MPs were not prepared to confront.
Said Cryer: "The vast majority of young Asian men are fine, but there's a minority who do not behave properly towards white women and sweeping it under the carpet will only make matters worse. If these Asian men behaved in the same way to young Muslim girls they'd end up in very hot water in their community."
Even before Straw made his provocative statement, there were calls for an inquiry into the racial basis of gangs who groom underage girls for sex on the street."

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 02:46 PM

And another horrific set of convictions today.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 02:49 PM

Many thanks, Jim. Green would be great. If it's any encouragement, you and I have locked horns on a few occasions, but never once did you argue in red print. I have always liked you for that. I argued with you in white print which saves me lord knows how many pixels. That way we both walk away feeling better ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 02:58 PM

Keith:

Jim has quite obviously shot himself in the foot*. I can't believe he is quite so insensitive and uncomprehending as not to see that.

~M~


(*I expect it is quite big from the exercise he gives it, putting it in 'it' - whatever the 'it' is into which one proverbially puts one's foot).

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 06:08 PM

if you read the quotes you will see that you are wrong and I am right.

OF COURSE you're right, Keith. You're ALWAYS right, and the WHOLE WORLD - "all the people, "all the historians", the whole goddamn creation & etc. - agrees with you, so how cold you POSSIBLY be wrong?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 06:41 PM

Greg, forget the sarcasm and read the quotes.
Then tell me what I have got wrong, if you can!

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 09:25 PM

Waddaya want from me, Keith? I said you're right. Damn near infallible.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 02:09 AM

I am on this.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 04:15 AM

"You will see that I am right and you are wrong".

"I am on this."

One of the wonderful aspects of self righteous idiots is that they genuinely think that the other side of an argument would agree with them if only they read what they read. It doesn't occur to Keith A Hole of Hertford that different conclusions can be drawn from the same text.

After all, if you don't think, walk, talk and go for a shit in the same way as Keith A Hole of Hertford, don't bother trying to confuse him with reasonable analysis of fact.

zzzzz

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 04:57 AM

"Your cut/paste in black text supports exactly my case."
It does no such thing - even if it did, why on earth ignore the bit in red text.
It points out that the crimes being discussed are those of a tiny minority of young criminals and there is no evidence whatever to link them to either the religion or the race of those criminals - Jack Straw, the judiciary, the police, the social workers the enqiry into the connection between race, culture and criminality have all stated this over and over again
You and your friend's attitude has, on the other hand, attempted to brand every single member of the British Muslim community as "implanted" perverts and potential terrorists - slaves to their "culture", though neither of you have ever attempted to show which particular aspects of that culture have made them what they are.
Straw and British authorities specifically warned against the acts a "tiny minority of criminals" being used against the Muslim population as a whole - that is exactly what you have done and are continuing to do here.
The above article includes this warning, yet you are claiming it as my having "shot myself in the foot" - what school did you go to Mike - tell us again?
For several years now Keith has openly used this forum as a platform for race and cultural hate.
He has deliberately and openly attempted to present the Muslim population, and Islam as a whole as terrorists and potential sexual perverts, the only reason that their perversions haven't materialised being that some have managed to resist their "implant" - the stuff horror science is made of - they are all "Manchurian Candidates in our midst.
Single handedly he took over, drifted and dominated the largest hate thread on this forum; it was started by someone pointing out that Muslim prejudice had become "a respectable form of bigotry in Britain" - Keith turned it into a sewer of hate directed against a community of a million plus human beings who are recognised as being quiet, respectable, industrious and desirous of bettering themselves educationally
As British citizens - they have recently been officially recognised as being the ethnic community who have most likely to embrace British citizenship, despite being among the most deprived and persecuted.
Despite this fact - it was on this thread that Keith chose to depict them as implanted monsters.
On a later thread (the murdered soldier) he depicted them as potential terrorists ad killers - a potential terrorist enemy within.
Most recently he set out to prove that the Muslim threat was not just in Britain, but a world-wide one.
He scraped the bottom of the barrel by vehemently supporting one of the largest cut-'n-pastes presented on this forum, lifted directly from an openly Islamophobic/racist site.
He said he had examined many of the accusations of murder and persecution taken from that site, refused to present his findings challenged us to "disprove them" - most of them were untraceable and of those that weren't, only a tiny number carried any proof whatever that they were religiously inspired.
That has been the level of his "evidence" from the beginning of his campaign - he has had no supporters, other than Mike, who nips in and out whenever he gets in trouble, and 'little Boo Boo' wo does the donkey work in seeking out is seeking out such sites as 'Islamwatch', 'Jihadwatch' and 'White Supremacy' - all of which have provided 'evidence' during the course of these arguments.
Despite his lack of support, Keith has just openly declared himself "damn near infallible" on the question of the Muslim culture - how s that for "shooting yourself in the foot Mike"?
We are all surrounded by our various cultures.
None of us are slaves to it, as Keith would have us believe; we accept or reject the bits we like or dislike.
No-one is "implanted" with anything - we are not cultural zombies who have been turned into monsters.
Keith and Mike have chosen to ignore the official statements that THERE IS NOT A SINGLE SHRED OF EVIDENCE LINKING THE CRIMES COMMITTED BY A TINY MINORITY IN BRITAIN HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE FACT THAT THEY COME FROM ISLAMIC COMMUNITIES, OR THEY ARE MUSLIMS - DESPITE THE FACT THAT AN OFFICIALLY CARRIED OUT SURVEY SAID EXACTLY THAT AND WARNED AGAINST DRAWING ANY SUCH INFERENCES
How is that for "infallibility - from both of them?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 05:16 AM

Just an aside. The local newspaper is going to run with a letter this week, that was copied to the head of chaplaincy at the hospital, who gave me a heads up.

Embarrassingly for him and his multi faith team, a local councillor has written to say that we are a Christian country and only the Christian chaplains should be state funded and if members of foreign faiths want pastoral care, they should pay for it.

The saying that the Church of England is the Conservative party at prayer isn't quite so funny sometimes.....

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 06:17 AM

I put article up to show that nowhere has anybody, social worker, politician, policeman, Muslim or whatever religion - ever sated at any time that 'Muslim culture is the cause of any crime in Britain' - which is not only the basic argument of Keith, Mike and their ilk, but has been expanded by Keith to include every single Muslim in Britain - the world, if his arguments are to be taken to their logical conclusion.
None of the people have made any such statement
Jack Straw points out that the opposite is the came - Muslim culture insists that there should be no sex whatever before marriage - a basic Muslim teaching.
Straw makes it clear that these crimes are the result of a "tiny group" of young criminals who have rejected Muslim teaching and have gone outside their own communities for sex to satisfy youthful sexual their urges.
Along with this defiance of Muslim law goes the drinking of alcohol and drug-taking, also forbidden.
Nobody would dare to suggest (apart from "infallible" Keith) that the crimes of pimping by a minority of this tiny minority, have anything whatever to do with being Muslim.
On the contrary, a built in fact of Muslim communities in Britain is adherence to the law - this has always been fully recognised and commented on by the British authorities.
The Muslim communities are and will remain the most law abiding nd peaceable in Britain.
It's up to Mike, "Infallible" Keith, and any other stray Islamophobe to prove that this is not so, not for us to disprove selected passages from carefully selected articles, the salient points of which are totally ignored anyway by this pair of Islamophobic clowns
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 06:35 AM

Nobody would dare to suggest (apart from "infallible" Keith) that the crimes of pimping by a minority of this tiny minority, have anything whatever to do with being Muslim.

I have stated just that all along, and right back on the original thread 2 years ago.

The people I quoted all state clearly that the offending is due to the culture, and we are ALL influenced by our culture.

No racism there.
No justification for all your vile abuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 06:36 AM

3 years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 06:44 AM

He said he had examined many of the accusations of murder and persecution taken from that site, refused to present his findings challenged us to "disprove them" - most of them were untraceable and of those that weren't, only a tiny number carried any proof whatever that they were religiously inspired.

All the items I checked were correct, and neither you nor anyone else was able to find one single false entry.
That suggests that it is probably mostly accurate, but that is only after two months of searching.
Good luck with it Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 11:04 AM

"All the items I checked were correct, and neither you nor anyone else was able to find one single false entry."
And you were never to show a true one.
All the items I checked were totally untraceable as being religiously inspired crimes.
Personally I can't be arsed with proving or disproving fascist sites - they are, by their very nature as untrustworthy as David Irving's conclusion on the Holocaust.
You support the claims, it's up to you to prove them and present your evidence, otherwise you are guilty of promoting unqualified information from a declared extremist Islamophobic site - no surprise there.
You have been shown the conclusions of your witnesses and have been able to produce one of them who attributes the crimes to being Muslim - no matter how many times you have claimed to have done.
Your repetition of your claims without showing they have makes you a moron - certainly not "infallible", which is indicative of your mental state rather than your being right.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 11:13 AM

Whoops - didn't quite finish...
....which is indicative of your mental state rather than your being right, as is your wholehearted support for information dredged up from a fascist site.
You remain the only individual to claim that people from an entire culture is implanted to make them rape young girls - such a suggestion went out of fashion when they closed down the concentration camps and the human experimentation labs - such is the enormity of YOUR disgusting accusation.
Carry on goose-stepping
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 11:23 AM

Not Godwin's Law again? :0(

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: bobad
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 11:26 AM

Keith, it proves he's wrong and exposes the untenability of his position so of course he has to deny it's veracity and the only way he can do that is to attack the site that compiled the list, not the events it catalogues - that's his usual MO when presented with facts that destroy his argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 01:36 PM

"Keith, it proves he's wrong and exposes the untenability"
How much light relief can we stand - my cup runneth over?
Hi Boo Boo
Would you like to verify anything on your site - no?
Thought not
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 02:41 PM

Jim, if you could actually identify a false entry, we would have to concede.
That is the first time you have claimed that you found one.
Why did you not mention it before?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 03:12 PM

Worth repeating IMO one of my favourite quotations:

"Elinor agreed with it all, for she did not think he
deserved the compliment of rational opposition." ― Jane Austen, Sense and Sensibility ...

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: bobad
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 03:23 PM

Good one Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 03:28 PM

Listen, you little prickeen
You have always been the first to reject information because it comes from a "Palestinian paper" or "is leftie shit" or even because it doesn't come a "real historian" - whatever that means.
Not so long ago your nodding-dog mate Mike the MacCathyite attempted to hold a 'un-British activities' - type interrogation to find out my political allegiances, no doubt in anticipation of using them as a substitute for having to answer for his support for Thatcher fascism, Islam-hatred - or whatever he needed a get-out - of -jail - free card for.
If you think you can dismiss other peoples sources out of hand when they don't suit your particular bigoted or racist agenda, we are certainly not going to accept your word on information you've sucked up from a fascist sewer site.
Nobody with an ounce common sense is either going to believe without proof a load of racist/bigoted garbage from a self-proclaimed Islamophobic web-site - and certainly, after your performances lately, nobody is going to take your word for anything, no matter how "infallible" you believe yourself to be.
You want us to believe your racist shit - prove it
If you read what other people posted you would be aware I have been saying that the majority of "facts" from your ultra right site are untraceable - as far back as it was posted I've tried to verify that they are genuine - we have no way of knowing if many of them are real or invented, and certainly not if they are sectarian crimes or ones committed for other reasons, where the perps happen to be Muslim
By the way - I'm as happy to keep this as long as you want - the more you refuse to respond to what's put in front of you and the more you repeat your moronic unproven and unacceptable statements, the better as far as I'm concerned - each time you post is another nail in yoour credibility coffin - as you can judge from the support you are getting for your "infallibility"
Keep it up - and live with the thought that one day you really are going to have to read something.
Oh, and - have a good night

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 06:45 PM

Jim, I did not accept that list without question.
I recognised some entries, and checked a few I did not recognise.
I found no false entries, and would be very surprised if you have.
I find it hard to believe.
Help me out by identifying a false entry, because you have been known to make stuff up.
What reason could you possibly have to withhold information that would make Bobad and me look silly?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 03:08 AM

"Help me out by identifying a false entry"
Keith,
I'll deal with this in two sections as you seem to have trouble coping with postings that contain more than two paragraphs - so lets get this one out of the way as quick as we can.
It's not mine, or anybody's job to disprove the vomiting of a racist site, it's the responsibility of those who believe and are prepared to circulate such garbage that it's true - you fit that bill perfectly.
Your Islamophobia has now escalated into overdrive - you seem to have lost control of yourself absolutely.
You now appear to have appointed yourself an unofficial (I assume unpaid) spokesman of a racist site dedicated to spreading race and religious hatred against Muslims.
You present their 'findings' as fact and refuse to defend their hate-filled outpourings, insisting that it is all true and it is our job to disprove the evidence you have yet to produce, and show no signs of giving us that evidence.
You have no supporters for your case; I don't really count Mike or Boo Boo - in the case of the former, too half-hearted and part-time in the latter - anybody who openly dips into extremist sites like Muslim-Watch, White Supremacy and Gatestone for their arguments is not to be taken too seriously and is certainly not a threat to anybody other than himself.
Despite your lack of support you have now declared your word on the subject of Islam to be only right but "infallible" - I think the Pope gave that up some time ago!
Get a grip laddie.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 03:37 AM

Jim, if neither of us, nor anyone else can find a false entry, it is probably mostly accurate.
Why did you claim to have found something?
I can remember many of the incidents, and I am sure you can too.

Picking at random one I cannot remember.
"1/28/2013         Turkey         Istanbul         1         0         An 85-year-old Christian woman is stabbed to death by an attacker who then carves a cross on her body."

It checks out.
http://www.economist.com/blogs/charlemagne/2013/01/turkeys-armenians

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 03:57 AM

Another.
"2/18/2013         Somalia         Alanley         1         0         A 42-year-old Christian teacher and father of four is brutally executed by al-Shabaab outside his home."

http://morningstarnews.org/2013/02/christian-shot-dead-near-kismayo-somalia/

Your turn Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 11:25 AM

Part two
You may recall that some time ago you announced that it was your opinion (nobody else's) that all make Pakistanis were culturally implanted to incline them towards having sex with underage girls.
When you were challenged you first denied the implications of what you had written, but when pressed you invented supporters by distorting and editing what they had actually said, and claimed that it was only your opinion because it was theirs also - a strange enough stance in itself.
In the intervening period you have confirmed that this remains your opinion and that you are still prepared to defend it and re - state it - as you are doing now.
You have never at any time produced evidence of any of your 'supporters' ever making such a profoundly racist statement, but it doesn't really matter.
To suggest that an entire race/culture is culturally implanted the way you have is an incredibly racist statement, whoever makes it.
It is the type of claim that filled the Nazi gas-chambers and Mengele's laboratories - then it was that the Jews were culturally and racially inferior, now, it seems, it is the Muslims occupying that position.
In today's situation, it is the type of statement which promotes Mosque burnings, 'Paki bashing', petrol through letter-boxes.... everything that makes racism in Britain today the evil that it is.
It would make miserable and dangerous the lives of every Pakistani family living in Britain – it makes every male Pakistani a potential criminal by way of their culture – the ironic thing, of course is that if you made this claim outside tthe safe haven of the internet you would be committing a crime – the incitement of race hatred.
You have now dropped your mask and are circulating propaganda directly lifted from a Muslim hate site.
I have little doubt you will continue your campaign on this forum, in which case, each time you take over a thread and fill it with your bile, I will remind you of your "implant" statement, and will continue to do so until you stop – you have just given us your recent revelation that you believe yourself to be "infallible", so I look forward to our future meetings.
Jim Carroll


Link 1
Opinion remains divided as to whether these are organised hate crimes targeting non-Muslims or just random theft.

Link 2
The killers were SUSPECTED to be members of the Islamic extremist
Two down, only a thousand to go.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 11:50 AM

"Jim, if neither of us, nor anyone else can find a false entry, it is probably mostly accurate."

From false premises anything follows.

Not enough to say you cannot find any false entries. You produce zero evidence for any entries PROVEN true.

This is YOUR assertion and it is YOUR job to supply proof.

You have relied for years on the impossibility of proving a negative, to cover the fact that you make unproven and unprovable assertions based on the bias of others.

This is the reason for your habit of demanding that others disprove your vicious, bigoted crap.

Then when challenged you back off and whine about not being responsible for repeating the views of others.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 12:35 PM

He's not doing too well so far - is he?
The very few I managed to find were similar - references to the perpetrators being Muslim, and sometimes the victims being Christian, but the vast majority of them were so vague as to be untraceable.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 12:53 PM

Don't worry. I'm a liar for watching the BBC 10.00pm News....

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 03:04 PM

Had a quick shufi through the first five items on Keith's list
1   All information from this comes from extremist web-sites
2   Police blame either terrorists or criminal gangs - no arrests, no definite suspects
3   Nothing
4   All information from extremist websites
5   Syrian rebels fighting Assad - nothing whatever to do with sectarian persecution, part of the Syrian revolt - all residents fled - no fatalities.

Wonder where Keith is - carefully selecting the attacks that were sectarian, having rejected the first five as useful, no doubt?
Though he has checked this site out
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 03:09 PM

You produce zero evidence for any entries PROVEN true.

Yes I did.
I provided corroboration for two random entries.
Jim says he has found some false ones, but has chosen not to reveal which.
Why should anyone believe him?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 03:12 PM

Don't worry. I'm a liar for watching the BBC 10.00pm News....

No.
You are a liar for inventing a crime that appeared on no news report.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 03:16 PM

You have now dropped your mask and are circulating propaganda directly lifted from a Muslim hate site.

No Jim.
You demanded I check the accuracy, so I did a couple of random checks.

Neither of us have found an error yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 03:21 PM

Had a quick shufi through the first five items on Keith's list

Date         Country         City/State         Killed         Injured         Description
9/22/2013         Pakistan         Peshawar         61         110         Two Shahid suicide bombers obliterate over sixty worshippers at a church service.
9/14/2013         Pakistan         Karachi         1         0         A Christian's throat is slit on the street after being branded an 'infidel' and blasphemer.
9/13/2013         Tanzania         Zanzibar         0         1         Muslims throw acid on a priest, badly burning him.
9/12/2013         Egypt         Sahel Selim         2         0         Two Copts are shot to death for refusing to pay Jizya to Muslims.
9/8/2013         Syria         Maaloula         3         6         Three Christians are murdered in their home, and six others taken hostage by Islamists.

I remember the church bombing.
The others, if true, seem to be Christians killed because they were Christians.
Shall I check if they are true, or will you Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 04:24 PM

IF true?? SEEM to be??

Jeez, Keith, I thought you KNEW you were 100% right all the time 'cuz everyone agreed with you.

What happened?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 05:26 PM

I am, but I did not write the list Greg.
Can you find anything wrong with it?
Neither can I or Jim so far.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 05:56 PM

Apologies for the long cut'n paste, but unless it is posted in full with appropriate links, it seems that K A of H is unable to find it. Of course he won't read this because it strains his attention span to read anything longer than a limerick (by his own oft repeated admission).

Perhaps someone will give him the salient points.

It is worth mentioning that in the Central African Republic, Muslims are the MINORITY!

Religious violence in the Central African Republic has reached a new extreme with an act of cannibalism in the capital, Bangui. The BBC's Paul Wood has heard a graphic first-person account, which some might find upsetting.

The buses throwing up clouds of red clay dust had yet to rub out the ugly bloodstain in the dirt. A Muslim man had been murdered here a few days ago, by Christians. His limbs were hacked off. Then one of the crowd ate the flesh in a public demonstration of cannibalism.

We were filming nearby when a young man in a yellow T-shirt came up to talk to me. "I am the naughty one," he said in broken French. Puzzled, I shook his hand and was trying to ease past him when I noticed the machete tucked into his skinny jeans. "I am the naughty one," he repeated.
Continue reading the main story

"Start Quote
I ate his leg, the whole thing right down to the bone - with bread. That's why people call me Mad Dog."
Ouandja Magloire

Desecration of bodies in war

With a sickening feeling, I realised I was talking to the cannibal. Camera phones had captured the crime. The pictures show a charred and dismembered body being dragged through the street by a screaming mob. A man held a severed leg and bit down into it.

The same, slightly built figure was standing in front of me. He was even wearing the same yellow T-shirt as in the video. A few minutes earlier, I had spoken to a horrified witness, Ghislein Nzoto. He said it began when the Muslim man was dragged from a bus. "People started attacking him, kicking him. They smashed a rock against his head. They kept going even after he was dead." He went on: "They set the body on fire. There were about 20 youths. They cut a whole leg off. Then one of them started to eat it. He bit into it four times and swallowed. It was raw, not burned. "This was right in front of the Burundian peacekeepers. One of the soldiers vomited. Then he chased people away with his gun."

'I swore revenge'

The cannibal's name was Ouandja Magloire - though he told me he was now known as "Mad Dog".
There was a busy market either side of the street, people hawking brightly coloured cloth, skin-whitening creams, and piles of fresh loaves. We went somewhere a bit quieter so I could ask him why he had done this awful thing.
He told me that Muslims had killed his pregnant wife, his sister-in-law, and her new baby.

He saw a man sitting on the minibus - he thought he looked Muslim so he decided to follow the bus. More and more people joined him until he was at the head of a mob. "We followed him," he said. "If he reached the intersection, the Burundians would protect him. So we told the minibus driver to stop. The driver said: 'You're right. He is a Muslim.'" He described what happened after the man was dragged off the bus: "I kicked his legs out from under him. He fell down. I stabbed his eyes. "Muslim! Muslim! Muslim! I stabbed him in the head. I poured petrol on him. I burned him. Then I ate his leg, the whole thing right down to the white bone. That's why people call me Mad Dog."

On the video, "Mad Dog" is seen happily chewing, his cheeks bulging. He waves a leg about in between mouthfuls. I returned to the question of why he had done this. "Because I am angry," he said. He had no other explanation. During our interview, he betrayed no sign of that anger, or of pride, or regret, or of any emotion at all. His tone was neutral, his eyes and face blank. The witness I'd spoken to, Ghislein Nzoto, said no-one in the busy street had tried to help the victim. "No-one at all," he said, shaking his head. "Everyone's so angry with the Muslims. No way anyone was going to intervene."

But the most disturbing thing happened the next day, he said. "Mad Dog" returned, having saved some of the dead man's flesh. He put it between two halves of a baguette and ate it, with a side of okra.
Ghislein didn't agree with Muslims being killed but it was at least something he could comprehend, he said. Like most other Christians I spoke to, he was both appalled and baffled by the act of cannibalism.
Perhaps, he agreed with me, this atrocity was simply the act of an unbalanced individual. Or it might be the result of religious hatreds.

Or - his final explanation - this had something to do with sorcery.
Many of the Christian fighters we met - the anti-balaka - believe in magic. They go into battle wearing a variety of amulets. A group of fighters at a checkpoint told me some of the amulets contained the flesh of men they had killed.
CAR cannibal: Why I ate man's leg
BBC News ‎- 4 days ago

Also in:-

· Cannibal in Central African Republic ate man's leg as 'revenge' for his family's murder

The Independent‎ - 4 days ago
· 'Mad Dog' Cannibal Hunts Muslims in Central African Republic

International Business Times UK‎ - 4 days ago

Also in The Daily Mail, Huffington Post and others.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 06:08 PM

The real point is that K A of H doesn't believe that there is any evidence of Christians persecuting Muslims.

Nor does he believe that there is any reason for persecution other than religious.

Is the above case the only one ever, or is it (much more likely) the only one sensational, because of the cannibalism, that it couldn't be swept under the carpet by Muslim hating media.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 06:54 PM

"....Muslim hating media."

That wouldn't be the one that is controlled by Jews now, would it?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 01:57 AM

I know about that incident and it has been referenced here before.
I have never denied that Christians are capable of persecution, but this is not an example.
Christians and Muslims coexisted peacefully there until recently.
It changed when Muslim militias started massacring Christians.
Now we have Christian militias and people like this man out for vengeance.
What started as persecution of Christians is now sectarian fighting.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 02:21 AM

So.... Persecution of Christians is just good old sectarianism?

You should have said so. You wouldn't have had to look such a twat if you had only stated before that there are two sides to every coin.

I wonder what your concept is of these Christians? When you hear the term of you think of arranging the flowers on the altar and organising beetle drives for the church roof fund?

I doubt if you didn't know if it were Friday or Sunday you could tell the difference. But no. You defend as a Christian rather than an onlooker every time. Then call others liars.

Pathetic really.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 03:40 AM

Musket, you made up a story of Christians chopping up Muslim schoolkids.
That does make you a liar and a nasty one.
You also made up a quote from a site that does not exist

The violence in CAR began just a few weeks ago with massacres of Christians.
Now we have reprisals and sectarian violence.
You can say they are persecuting each other if you like.

Troubadour, you just showed that it is YOU not me who is incapable of reading what is posted.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 04:08 AM

"Jim says he has found some false ones, but has chosen not to reveal which.
Why should anyone believe him?"
Because, unlike you, I deliberately make it a policy on not telling lies, not because of any particularly high moral principles, but because I see no point in taking part in discussions that are generated by false information.
I come to these discussions to say what I think I know and to learn from others - not, again like you, to win prizes "I win" - a constant quote of yours.
You have been caught out over and over again deliberately lying (then blaming someone else) selecting information that you believe to be supportive of your case and omitting that which doesn't, of deliberately doctoring statements (you carefully cut out lines from Jack Straw's argument on Muslim sex crimes before you pasted it up) - on one occasion you even posted under a false identity supporting your own argument when you were getting no support from anywhere else - you were publicly warned by the site referees for having done this.
You are the most dishonest, disreputable and fanatical poster on this forum (I nearly wrote "one of the most" but I can't think of anybody who openly tells lies on this forum - not one, you stand alone in this.
I swore I wasn't going to enter into the "true-false" black hole that arguing with you eventually ends in.
Earlier I dipped into a few references earlier and found them unreliably ambivalent, untraceable, or openly false.
I have just gone through the first five and found them exactly as I described them.
The last one in particular is interesting because it has been put up to suggest that opposition to Assad is 'Muslim Jihad terrorism' - now there's a thought to be mulled over by the citizens of Homs who were massacred.
"The others, if true, seem to be Christians killed because they were Christians."
What kind of puerile argument is that - every crime committed against a Christian, Jew, Moslem, Bush Baptist..... must be a sectarian crime - you sodding idiot.
"I am, but I did not write the list Greg.
Can you find anything wrong with it?
Neither can I or Jim so far."
You seem, on the one hand to be totally ignoring the five items you have just been given, as is your persistent practice, and on the other, denying responsibility for the blanket support you have given to an extremist racist site - as is also your persistent practice - you openly and enthusiastically supported it, now take responsibility for having done so.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 04:32 AM

And before you tell us you don't tell lies Keith - you have just done exactly that
You have just been given five items that have been shown to be either flawed or openly false, yet you still claim:
"Can you find anything wrong with it? Neither can I or Jim so far."
You appear to be a congenital liar.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 04:57 AM

Just one more thing before I go out for some fresh air, away from the stench of hatred you manage to create around you.
"The others, if true, seem to be Christians killed because they were Christians."
Would you mind confirming that you actually believe that all crimes committed against Christians are "sectarian" so we can establish the level of idiocy you appear to have reached.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 06:17 AM

Jim, one of the five I remember.
Don't you?
The suicide church bomb.
How can that not be sectarian?

In the other four cases the killing seems to be religiously motivated.
Why do you doubt it?

AND WHY WILL YOU NOT TELL US WHICH ITEMS YOU FIND FALSE????
It is hard not to conclude you are lying again.

If I lied, I would leave the forum in shame.
It is completely untrue to say that I have.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 06:45 AM

Ah, that's better!
Your depraved hatred appears to have no limits
In order to save face you appear to have turned the bloody opposition to a murderous dictator into a Jihadist war.
The article containing the facts about the village being "held hostage" describes the combatants being "rebels including some Jihadists"
All the villagers were unharmed.
Thanks to the non-intervention of the West in Syria (supported by you)fundamentalists have become influential in the opposition of Assad.
This has been exacerbated by Britain selling weapons (including chemicals) and riot control equipment to Assad to allow him to continue to slaughter his people.
There are now estimated to be one million unsettled Syrian refugees fleeing from Assad
To describe this conflict as "Jihadist" in order to save face really is as squalid as it gets
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 09:20 AM

"The problems in CAR started only a few weeks ago."





Fuck me gently

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 10:37 AM

"Jim, one of the five I remember."
Absolutely pathetic
You have ignored every single point put to you, bar one, and you pathetically claim to "remember it" - with a reputation like yours - give us credit for some intelligence.
You are what you have displayed yourself to be - a lying, self- obsessed and extremely disturbed fanatic, totally lacking in any self-respect or humanity (I believe you once described yourself as a "Christian and offered to "pray for us" - do I have that right?
It goes perfectly with your claims of infallibility - "God on Our Side" I think the man sang"
I think that just about tops and tails it really - don't you.
The only thing that remains unclear is exactly how much of the - what &80 - &90 - of respect and agreement with your ideas your good fairy has stated he has for you, remains - or is he content to remain wading in your slime pit.
Boo-Boo doesn't bear taking seriously
Many thanks for your display here - it will come in handy for future reference and reminder, no doubt
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 12:04 PM

Musket, at least you have learned one thing.
There was peaceful coexistence in CAR until the Muslim militia began the massacres.
You yourself expressed horror at one report.
Remember?

Jim, did you not know that there has been persecution of minorities like Shia and Christian in some Islamist rebel held areas in Syria?
You have learned too then.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 04:28 AM

Ok. To be Christian persecution it has to be available now on The BBC.

I know Keith is going to bristle at the insinuation here so let me make quite clear that I notice the UKIP are distancing themselves from one if their councillors.

A UKIP politician is persecuting gay people by saying the recent floods are because of the vote to accept gay marriage into law. He then seeks to persecute the vast majority of the country by saying it is a Christian country and we are wrong for turning our backs on God.

Luckily we can laugh at the preposterous fool but you know, there is a huge groundswell of stupidity agreeing with him and irresponsible lack of condemnation of such tosh by people paid to speak for religious cults.

How many steps between him and a theocracy? Which political systems feature gangs of ignorant animals roaming round with machetes to defend their flavour of delusion?

It isn't just the church roof fund and village fêtes you know....

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 06:49 AM

"Musket, at least you have learned one thing."
Tsk, tsk – your infallibility is showing again
Must get a name for you, how does "Infallibility Achie" grab you?
"Jim, did you not know that there has been persecution of minorities like Shia and Christian in some Islamist rebel held areas in Syria?"
I did indeed; where you aware that the persecution of Muslims, Christians, Jews... by Muslims, Christians, Jews.... you name it, has been taking place as far back as you can go and that it is current in Britain (amply demonstrated by your good self) as we converse.
The persecution of non-believers is the stock-in-trade of all of the major religions and has been since their inception – what's your point?
I doubt if you have or ever will learn anything from this, or anything else – you appear not to do that sort of thing.
I count six threads discussing god and Christianity running currently on this forum at the present time – a bit like Sunday morning with the Jehovah's Witnesses!
Wonder if this counts as "Christian Persecution" - please don't answer Keith (though I have no doubt you will be unable to refrain from doing so) I really wasn't addressing you.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 06:57 AM

Oh, and by the way,
Did you know that the present persecution and carnage being carried out by Assad in Syria today has been facilitated by the fact that he is able to use weapons and equipment sold to him by the Christian West (among others)?
But of course you do - you have supported it continuously throughout these discussions
What was I thinking of asking such a silly question, heavens to Murgatroid?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 07:51 AM

I did indeed; where you aware that the persecution of Muslims, Christians, Jews... by Muslims, Christians, Jews.... you name it, has been taking place as far back as you can go and that it is current in Britain (amply demonstrated by your good self) as we converse.

It is not current in Britain today.
Not the kind of persecution that involves people being murdered, tortured, places of worship and homes destroyed, and peoples driven from their ancestral homes.
Indeed our minority communities are thriving and growing.

Musket, if you mean your made up massacre, yes it would be recorded on the BBC News site if they ever covered it, and such a heinous crime would also have been taken up by the other agencies and be recorded all over the net.
The fact that it is not appear anywhere is proof that it never happened.
That the chopped up school children fed to pigs was just a fantasy of a sick mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 08:30 AM

"It is not current in Britain today."
The persecution of Muslims has been commonplace in Briatain for deacades.
Arson attacks attacks and vandalisiation on Mosques, has increased since the murder f the soldier - official.
Pakistanis in Britain have been recognised as the most discriminated against in Britain.
Racist killings are not common but they have taken place, and when they have, the police have been recognised as being "institutionally racist" in their investigation of such crimes.
You want to operate Mike's 'sliding scale' of persecution - feel free, but widespread persecution exists throughout Britain today
One in three of the British people interviewed on the subject have admitted to holding and expressing racist views
This 'passive racism' impinges on the lives of the whole immigrant population in one way or another - from discrimination in everyday living, education, personal security and comfort, right up to fear for their lives.
God knows how much this would accelerate if your "cultural implant" theory was ever taken seriously.
This pattern is repeated throughout the Christian world - France, Germany, eastern Europe, where once again extreme racism is on the rise.
Won't go into the persecution of Muslims in Israel for fear of creating another black hole.
There is still far more persecution by Christians in the world as ther is of them
There always has been - as I said, it goes with all major religions and will remain so wherever religion has secular power and influence
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 09:19 AM

Not if by persecution you mean the kind that involves people being murdered, tortured, places of worship and homes destroyed, and peoples driven from their ancestral homes.
Our Mulsim community is thriving, growing and more are welcomed here every day.

Meanwhile Christian communities worldwide are being persecuted to extinction.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 12:03 PM

Could you be kind enough to specify and define the 'sliding scale' of persecution whose invention, or possession [the possessive adjective does not make clear which], you attribute to me? I regret to being entirely ignorant of and oblivious to its very existence; but should be fascinated to learn its details.

Thank you in anticipation.


~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 01:09 PM

"Not if by persecution you mean the kind that involves people being murdered, tortured,"
It seems that you are happy to condemn fanatical Islamists for murdering in the name of their religion, but are not prepared to even consider generations of ruined lives deliberately brought on families of "every British male Pakistani" (your very words, I think) - men women, children whose lives are scared and damaged by prejudice such as yours.
I don't mean anything - I don't differentiate between persecution by nutters and persecution by bigots like yourself on entire families and communities - sorry - that's not entirely true - I certainly do cnsider one far more serious, all-embracing and long lasting than the other - guess which?
I really am not surprised that you accept one without condemnation, being the bigot you are.
Mike
Throughout these arguments you have dismissed (even sneered at) racist persecution as being not serious enough to be considered persecution ("ah diddums" - I seem to remember was one of the phrases you used.)
May I say you do a fine line in double-standards, and when you can't be bothered to sell them yourself, your quite happy to let this abomination sell them on your behalf, offering a little immoral suport when he runs out of steam.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 02:15 PM

'("ah diddums" - I seem to remember was one of the phrases you used.)'--
.,,.
Such precision on Jim's part! 'Seems to remember', does he? In relation to what, precisely? Ah, he doesn't 'seem' to remember that, does he?

Still, never mind. He's not going to get the 'compliment of rational opposition' (Jane Austen) from me. I don't waste energy trying to engage in meaningful dialogue with hysterics.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 02:18 PM

I was just wondering about that 'sliding scale' he attributed to me: but I am left none the wiser. He can let it go, tho. I'm no longer the least bit interested in what he thought he meant by it. The moment has passed.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 02:43 PM

Jim, I share your abhorrence of all forms of persecution, and of clerical abuse.
On any threads on such subjects I will join you in condemning it unreservedly.
This thread is about actual religious persecution as I have described.
I strongly believe that evil is worthy of a dedicated thread.
Why don't you?
Is it because almost the only current victims are Christians?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 02:45 PM

"Such precision on Jim's part! 'Seems to remember', does he? In relation to what, precisely?"
It was in regard to my pointing out that a soldier in the Swiss Gaurd was sexually harassed by senior clergy in the Vatican - not a world shattering event until you put it in the context of the thousands of children raped and abused by Clergy from the same stable who had charge over both the bodies and, if we are to believe the píshoges, the souls of those children
My point is, and remains that all religions pose a threat and have been known to persecute at every level when the circumstance are favourable to do so - a fact Keith has persistently ruled as "offside".
I wonder which side of the percentage of your support for him that sort of thing falls in.
"The moment has passed."
You have persistently operated a sliding scale in all this in making one type of persecution less important than another and attempting, alongside Achey the Invincible, to rule persecution as not being valid to this discussion.
You would claim you don't know what I'm referring to, wouldn't you?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 03:09 PM

Well, as you have in fact provided a civil answer, Jim, I will politely reply thank you; tho I can't quite see all the cause of your objection to the points I made. In particular, I must take up your accusation that I think some persecution worse than other, because it seems to me self-evident that some persecution IS worse than other. I don't think that the Holocaust, or Stalin's gulag s and his 1936 Moscow Trials & executions and his extermination of the kulaks, or the worst excesses of the Inquisition, are to be placed on an equivalent footing to the Irish girls prevented from having abortions, who have been adduced here, by you & others, as being 'persecuted' in tones to suggest the severity of all these persecutions are equal. You remind me of someone [Richard Bridge IIRC?] accusing me in tones of reprimand on another thread of being more hostile towards some religions than others, as if that somehow wasn't cricket.

Sorry; but I think that is just plain silly. Some religions are more reprehensible and undesirable in their effects than others; and some persecutions likewise. If that's all you mean by a 'sliding scale' then let it slide!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 04:50 PM

Sick mind? I suppose you shouldn't believe every news report. A bit strong calling a reporter you claim you can't find someone with a sick mind though.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 05:02 PM

I claim I can't find?
It is a fact I can't find it.
It is a fact that no-one can find it, including you and all your mates.
It was just a sick lie, told by a sick liar.

Of course, you could always produce something and make me look silly, but you will come up with some pathetic reason why you won't.

Everyone will then know you are not just a liar, but a fool too.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 08:43 PM

"It changed when Muslim militias started massacring Christians.
Now we have Christian militias and people like this man out for vengeance."

When the Muslim MINORITY started massacring the vastly superior number of Christians eh?

I have this bridge to sell, that you might be interested in.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 02:01 AM

Ok here goes.

Keith is a racist bigoted member of a far right organisation called UKIP. He has a quest to push Christianity as above scrutiny and as a lackey for the establishment enjoys pushing falsehoods regarding the carnage and complete waste of lives that he calls "The Great War."

Happy now?



By the way. Did you get over to Israel last week for the funeral of that terrorist Sharon?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 02:46 AM

I am not a member or even a supporter of UKIP.
That exlains why I have never made any post extolling or supporting them.
You lie, as you always do.

Troubadour, if you do not believe me, how about Reuters, or any other news agency?

Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 07:26 AM

Re CAR, Reuters yesterday.
" Djotodia, who was swept to power by mainly Muslim rebels, known as Seleka, last March.

Abuses by Seleka forces had led to the creation of Christian self-defence militia and killings that evoked memories of Rwanda's genocide 20 years ago."
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/01/11/uk-centralafrican-idUKBREA090O220140111

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 02:51 AM

Guardian troub?
"Although Djotodia officially disbanded the Seleka, he proved unable to keep them in check. They went on to carry out countless atrocities against civilians, killing, looting and razing villages. The group is largely drawn from the CAR's Muslim minority and the conflict soon became defined along sectarian faultlines."
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/10/central-african-republic-president-resignation-djotodia

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 04:25 AM

Troubadour, if you read people's posts (which you accuse me of not doing!) or just read news reports before posting you would not make yourself look so ignorant.
Guardian again.
" "We have never seen religions tensions like this in the CAR before. The CAR is not a Muslim country; it is a Christian country. We have never seen so many Muslims in the country before. They have come from other countries." Like many in the CAR, he feels it is being ignored and abandoned to its fate. "International leaders should open their eyes to what is going on. "

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/22/central-african-republic-verge-of-genocide

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 04:27 AM

" tho I can't quite see all the cause of your objection to the points I made."
Mike
A last word to you - I don't think I have anything more to say than this.
I have explained my family's early involvement with the various anti- Fascist movements - that is the upbringing I received, an abhorrence to all forms of racial and religious discrimination.
In the 1960s I began to visit Manchester regularly, it almost became my second home and for four years it was my home.
Through my involvement in the Peace Movement and my interest in music I met and became very friendly with great number of Jewish people.
My first serious girlfriend came from a family of European refugee Holocaust survivors.
This was less than twenty years after the events and personal bitterness was still very much evidence in every family I met through my friends.
They told me of their experiences 'back home' and described how they had been treated by the German authorities, in particular, how they had been stereotyped as being "impure", "greedy usurers", "child sacrificers" "a threat to the German way of life and purity".....
Their lives became intolerable, not just because of their harsh treatment, but because of the pariah status that had been brought about by the filth that was claimed of them - they had been depicted as a culturally and racially 'deformed people'.
The lucky ones saw what was coming and got out in time - many millions didn't and suffered the consequences - you know all this, I am not attempting to patronise you -- just reminding Achie the Vincible of the consequences of his behaviour, which is not a million miles different to that I had described to me.
Keith has dedicated the major part of his time to depicting Muslims pretty much the same way as the Nazis depicted the Jews.
In doing so he is drawing his information from extremist racist sites, he has claimed an entire race as being culturally perverted and potential terrorists and over the years he has defended the mass murder of innocent refugees, the use of chemical weapons, starvation tactics causing the ill health and death of children.....
He is now describing the opposition to a twentieth century monster in the process of slaughtering his people as "Jihadist conflict".
He has even suggested that it was permissible to sell that monster and others like him weapons, even proposing that he should be supplied with riot control gear to enable him to fill his torture chambers with his opponents rather than having to deal with them in public.
That's the individual you have given your ninety percent plus support to.      
You want to judge religious persecution by counting bodies, I prefer to judge all persecution by the overall and long lasting effect it has by being able to control and destroy peoples existence - not just in the ending of lives but in the drip - drip - drip ruining them
This encompasses all race hatred in all its forms, whether it be Islamic fanatics slaughtering people, clerics raping children, or even young women being forbidden control of their own bodies and lives in the long run, it can all lead to the same extermination camps if left unchecked and unnoticed.
Prejudice and discrimination against Muslims has long been a feature of life in the Christian world, even taking into account the behaviour of Muslim fanatics, Islamophobia remains a major cause of persecution and suffering in the world today.
I don't understand fanatics like Keith whose blind hatred appears to come from his own mind - nothing he has ever argued has ever showed him to be an any way concerned about human beings - all his efforts have gone to supporting regimes and governments.
You have sneered at my anti-racism in the past - substituting name-calling and label-pinning for open argument.
I don't understand Keith and his hate campaigns (he appears to be turning this "Christian persecution" thread into a companion piece to his "Muslim Persecution" epic.
He has even claimed "infallibility" for the views he is circulating (no warning bells or sinister echoes?)
You appear to be happy to join him in his efforts
If I don't understand him, I can't begin to understand you.
I don't think we have anything to say to each other, do you?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 04:49 AM

Keith has dedicated the major part of his time to depicting Muslims pretty much the same way as the Nazis depicted the Jews.
In doing so he is drawing his information from extremist racist sites, he has claimed an entire race as being culturally perverted and potential terrorists and over the years he has defended the mass murder of innocent refugees, the use of chemical weapons, starvation tactics causing the ill health and death of children.....

Not one word of truth in any of that.
If I were a bad person you would not have to make up such shit about me.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 04:52 AM

One always has something to say to another human being, Jim. Isn't it a bit prescriptive and extreme to despair of any dialogue between us, just because I consider your equation of any form of persecution as being as menacing to the commonweal in its potential effects, & as being ∴ of equivalent virulence as any other, to be counter·productively & hyperbolically extreme? If two people can't agree even to that extent without all dialogue being abandoned, I think it a somewhat dangerous situation. I do not think meaningful discussion is to be predicated upon such conditions.

We may also, so far as I can see, differ in our assessments as to the strengths of Keith's arguments, and his means of prosecuting them, without the imminent onset of Apocalypse Now.(Though overworked facetiousnesses about guardian-☤s, poodles, &c, tho perhaps originally faintly amusing, might not remain perpetually helpful in this particular.)

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 06:17 AM

"Not one word of truth in any of that."
Evething I have described here has been said publicly - and can be qualified by cut-'n-pastes, if that's what you wish - I have never made anything up, I don't have to.
If you actually believe the bile that you put up, you are an unbelievably sick and (if anybody took you seriously) dangerous individuation.
If you are just invoking the suffering and hatred that your opinions invariably cause just as an attempt to gain the attention you are not obviously receiving elsewhere, judging by the time you spend posting your filth, you are an extremely disturbed and sad one.
Despite the Keith v Jim jibes I will happily continue drawing attention to your extreme ultra extremism - I will be truly saddened if Mike chooses to get in the way.
Despite our differences I bear him no ill will and hold him in respect for his past contributions to folk-song
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 06:42 AM

No such thing as a Christian country if just one Muslim or rational person lives there.

Pathetic

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 08:40 AM

" if just one Muslim or rational person lives there."
I think there are a million plus (Muslims, that is) living in Britain at the present time
Religious belief is never a problem when it a personal decision, most of our friends and neighbours believe in a god - not a 'glugger' among them.
It is the churches and the crazies who cause the dissention and bloodshed, whatever brand of soap-powder they choose to promote.
Our resident crazy here doesn't seem to want to comment on the fact that for nearly a century a large part of the U.K. has been torn apart by bloody inter-religious dissension brought about by deliberate policy introduced by the British Government - "thread-drift" no doubt.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 08:46 AM

and can be qualified by cut-'n-pastes, if that's what you wish

Yes please, but you will just come up with some pathetic reason not to.

You can't argue the issues, so you try to demonize me instead.
Unfortunately for you, I have never posted a bad thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 09:23 AM

the fact that for nearly a century a large part of the U.K. has been torn apart by bloody inter-religious dissension brought about by deliberate policy introduced by the British Government - "thread-drift" no doubt

Do you mean N.Ireland??
I do not remember any religious dimension to that debate.
It was entirely political.

Also it had a vast number of threads dedicated to it, and this is the one and only thread about religious persecution.

I strongly believe that that evil is worthy of a dedicated thread.
Why don't you?
Is it because almost the only current victims are Christians?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 09:25 AM

"Apocalypse Now"
"So close your eyes, stop your ears,
Close your mouth and never dare,
And if it happens here they'll never come for you
Because they'll know you really didn't care."
"but you will just come up with some pathetic reason not to."
I'll make a start when I get time - I always try to do what I promise
You can start looking for somebody to blame for having made you say it in the first place
You can stat with "All male Pakistanis are culturally implanted, then go on to your proposal to sell Assad riot control gear - both are well-established enough not to need links.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 09:32 AM

But what I actually said was, "I do now believe" what certain eminent Pakistani people were saying about the offending.
They said it came from their culture, and we are all influenced by that.

So, that one 3year old post is the most racist thing I have ever said, AND IT IS NOT RACIST!

Good start Jim.
Now how about " he is drawing his information from extremist racist sites,"

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 10:15 AM

Been through that and established that nobody ever made such claim - doesn't matter how old it is - you continue to put it forward as your opinion - as you just have.
Seems the sale of riot equipment is going unchallenged and can be taken as read.
I had little doubt that you would continue lying to deny your apalling statements, but it's fun to watch you squirm.
Will push on - it all helps to allow you to expose yourself as the toe-rag you are - better look out some more patsies to hide behind
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 10:42 AM

nobody ever made such claim - doesn't matter how old it is - you continue to put it forward as your opinion - as you just have.

They all did claim it came from culture, and we are all influenced by our culture.
I have never, ever put it forward as my opinion.
I always said I did not know about that culture.
I just believed them, as I might a doctor's diagnosis or a weather forecast.
Not my opinion.

You can not make me out a racist over that, and you have been trying for 3 years!

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 11:03 AM

Been there - done that - doesn't matter anyway - whoever said it would be inspiring genocidal provoking racism - you are still saying it.

Your responses to the fact that Britain had been exposed as selling weapons to Assad during his murderous Homs campaign, where his snipers were deliberately targeting children-in-arms in order to kill the mother by shooting through the child.
The snipers were holding bets for cigarettes for how many 'hits' they made.
You had this pointed out to you – here are some of your excuses
Would you like me to provide links to your claiming the white phosphorous used by Israeli troops in Palestine, to be 'harmless illumination' – along with the photographs of children burnt to the bone, of course?
Best wishes, Your ever respectful
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 03:15 PM

Even liberal democracies have to deal with riots.
Non-lethal crowd control techniques are preferrable to live rounds.
If only Syria would restrict its security forces to using tear gas and water.
It would not be such a crime to supply such things, compared to what Russia and China supplies.


Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 09:21 AM

But why do you ONLY criticise Britain?
Not Russia.
Not China.
Not Syria.
Britain is hardly in the same league.
You have clearly been searching vigorously, but all you have come up with is some sniper rifles.
The only other "weapons" supplied were armour plated buses, tear gas and water cannon.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 12:21 PM

When Keith refers to CAR as a Christian country or his UKIP mate in Oxfordshire calls UK a Christian country, the statement alone is persecution.

You have to get as far as chopping up children before he starts screaming liar! too.

The mask has slipped, the brain has flipped. Carrying on humouring him by debating could be construed as cruel.

Ok. Carry on

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 03:27 PM

Musket, Keith never referred to CAR as a Christian country.
That was a CAR citizen quoted in The Guardian.

No mask. No slippage.
And no UKIP mates. UKIP is nothing to me as you know.
No Muslim kids were chopped up and fed to pigs in Nigeria, or anywhere else.
You made it up Musket.
What a sick mind you must have.

Jim, those cut/pastes do not make me a bad person.
What is your point?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 03:44 PM

"Jim, those cut/pastes do not make me a bad person."
Are you insane enough to believe that
Plenty more where they come from
Do you want me to go on?
You sneered at me and suggested I would "just come up with some pathetic reason not to."
Now I'm really beginning to enjoy myself - and I've always hated blood-sports!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 03:59 PM

Jim, our countries have non-lethal crowd/riot control equipment.
Others use live ammunition on them.
I advocate all countries have access to non-lethal kit.
You would prefer they just gun people down, as Assad was actually doing?
That is more insane.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 02:35 AM

Plenty more where they come from
Do you want me to go on?

Yes please.
Justify accusing me of "drawing his information from extremist racist sites, he has claimed an entire race as being culturally perverted and potential terrorists and over the years he has defended the mass murder of innocent refugees, the use of chemical weapons, starvation tactics causing the ill health and death of children..."

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 03:04 AM

You're claiming facts from racist sites speaks from racist sites speaks for tiself - are you mad?
You are defending your staunch support for Boo boo's gatherings from Muslim Watch - what the hell is that other than support - or is that entirely Boo-Boo's fault?
You have supported the mass murder of Palestinian refugees by removig the blame from where it belongs and trying to shift it to other Muslims - Shias - support as far as I'm concerned.
You have openly and consistently supported the Israel's blockade of Palestine which has caused, ad is still causing ill health and death among Palestinian children (after what - it mist be nearly 8 years now)
I might have added that you have defended that Israel proposed the moving of an entire group of Bedouins onto a toxic site in order to make room for Israeli settlers - your argument - a land seeping with poisons and poisoning water supplies after years of dumping rubbish on it cannot be counted as "toxic" - sort of like phosphorus dropped on schools and hospitals which burn the faces off children (photographs supplied) aren't chemical weapons.
Then there's the use of toxic chemical spray used on Bedouin farmers, poisoning crops and people....
Your inhumanity appears to have no limits.   
"I advocate all countries have access to non-lethal kit."   
I really think that just about winds it up, don't you.
Proposing supplying Assad with riot control gear to quell riots and herd the rioters into his torture chambers - says it all really
Assad isn't "all countries" - he is a murderous animal who is in the process of murdering, torturing, maiming and displacing millions of Syrians - she should be supplied with nothing - he never should heven been.
Sorry - my stomach really isn't up for this - please go away - you are doing what I have been trying to do for some time now, and making a far better job of it than I ever could.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 03:24 AM

You're claiming facts from racist sites speaks from racist sites speaks for tiself - are you mad?
You are defending your staunch support for Boo boo's gatherings from Muslim Watch - what the hell is that other than support

Completely untrue Jim, like the rest of your accusations.
When the list was posted, like you I was highly suspicious of it.
Like you, I checked its entries looking for untruths.
Like you, I was unable to find any.
Unlike you, I was honest about my findings.
You claimed to have found false entries, but would not or could not tell us which ones.
How could anyone believe that?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 03:28 AM

and can be qualified by cut-'n-pastes, if that's what you wish

Yes please.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 03:53 AM

Musket and Troubadour, Reuters on CAR, 11 hours ago.

"The landlocked nation, impoverished for all its mineral reserves, descended into chaos when mainly Muslim rebels, known as Seleka, seized power in March.

Abuses by Seleka fighters triggered revenge attacks by Christian militia known as 'anti-balaka' (anti-machete), fuelling unprecedented violence between communities that had lived side-by-side."
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/01/20/us-centralafrican-idUSBREA0J0VT20140120?feedType=RSS

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 01:37 PM

Yes.

Your point?








(Your point is to claim others reckon only Christians hurt others, which is bollocks but no more bollocks than your defence of them every time someone points out it takes two to tango.)

This is nothing to do with imaginary friends. It is ethnic conflict, it is displaced people moving in conflict, it is conflict. The religious labels are merely convenient.





Perhaps It is boorish to keep pointing out that reading in papers or seeing on the telly may or may not reflect reality, but that doesn't make the viewer / listener a liar. You don't like it when I legitimately question your politics on the back of a post you wrote, so don't call me a liar on the back of lazy research on your part.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 03:11 PM

Musket, on the 18th you challenged that sectarian violence in CAR is a recent phenomenon.

""The problems in CAR started only a few weeks ago."
Fuck me gently"

So I fucked you.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 03:37 PM

"Abuses by Seleka forces had led to the creation of Christian self-defence militia and killings that evoked memories of Rwanda's genocide 20 years ago."

I take it that the genocide being the extermination of a Muslim minority, that's OK with you.

For K A of H two wrongs make a right as long as his preferred side is winning.

The extermination of a minority cannot even in the loosest sense be described as self defence and is indefensible no matter who is winning. The Christians involved are no better than those who attacked them.

IMO, had it not been for the cannibalism, the western press would have played this down and I believe that there are many more cases we just don't hear about.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 03:48 PM

"just because I consider your equation of any form of persecution as being as menacing to the commonweal in its potential effects, & as being ∴ of equivalent virulence as any other, to be counter·productively & hyperbolically extreme?"

OK! So you believe that persecution is more, or less, reprehensible according to the degree of damage suffered.

So tell me this. At what point does it become serious enough for you to stop ignoring it and take notice?

Do you think that those who start small, if allowed to get away with it, will stop of their own accord?

Is the death of Mr Ebrahimi really of inferior import because it happened here, and not in the Middle East. I'm willing to bet he felt severely persecuted!

WHERE do YOU draw the line?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 05:46 PM

Troubadour, I do not know how I would react to the butchering with machetes of people I love, so I would not judge these people.

The cannibal had his pregnant wife, his sister, and her baby chopped up.

You have such experience Troubadour?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 08:09 PM

I do not know how I would react to the butchering with machetes of people I love

You DON'T? You're more pathetic than I thought!

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 03:46 AM

reading in papers or seeing on the telly may or may not reflect reality, but that doesn't make the viewer / listener a liar. You don't like it when I legitimately question your politics on the back of a post you wrote, so don't call me a liar on the back of lazy research on your part.

It is not lazy research.
I searched extensively.
The incident you invented was so horrific that I know I would have remembered it.
That is what aroused my suspicion.
Not one person has claimed to remember the incident, and MtheGM specifically said he also had no memory of it.

You claim BBC broadcast it, but searches on their news site reveal no trace of any such incident.
I tried several news agencies as well as broad ranging Google searches.
There is no trace of such an incident on the internet.

That means it never happened.
The inescapable conclusion is that you made up a lurid fantasy atrocity to demonize a faith community you must really hate.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 04:30 AM

I doubt I hate many members of my friends and family. I doubt I hate the chaplaincy team I am responsible for and find funds for them to do their sterling work. I doubt I hate my wife's hobby of church bell ringing and the huge circle of friends we have from that.

I doubt I am anything that you have merrily suggested over the recent past.





Not too sure about you though. The more extreme my suggestion, the more you seem to go on to fit the stereotype.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 04:39 AM

OK, but the incident you described never happened.
Why you lied is just my speculation, but you did lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 05:56 AM

Still singing 'Banks of Denial' and nothing else I see Keith.
"I advocate all countries have access to non-lethal kit."
Your suggestion that it is ok to sell Assad riot control equipment has just been put into context by the announcement that 11,000 detainees in his torture chambers and jails have been murdered or disappeared.
Well done Keith - you and he appear to be doing a good job as far as Syria is concerned - keep up the good work.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 05:59 AM

No I didn't.





Cue Monty Python sketch regarding wanting an argument and just getting contradiction....

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 06:04 AM

I do advocate that all countries should have such equipment.
Given not sold.
Why is it OK for us but not developing countries?

Plenty more where they come from
Do you want me to go on?

Yes please.
Justify accusing me of "drawing his information from extremist racist sites, he has claimed an entire race as being culturally perverted and potential terrorists and over the years he has defended the mass murder of innocent refugees, the use of chemical weapons, starvation tactics causing the ill health and death of children..."

Yes please, but you will just come up with some pathetic reason not to.
"infallible" (smug grin.)

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 06:09 AM

There comes a point in every long thread where controversy gives say to repetition gives way to ennui gives way to acute boredom gives way to just not worth even opening any more.

I hereby bow formally out of this thread,

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 06:10 AM

No argument Musket.
You deny lying.
You always do.
You say it could be found but for my ineffective searching.
You find it then.

No-one can find or remember it.
It never happened.
A lie.
No argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 06:19 AM

I refer the honourable old soak to my reply in the thread immediately below this one (as of nowish)




Don't get excited Keith, I'm talking to Michael. Shaking my head slowly doesn't scan well in a thread, so no real answer to your rather silly observations.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 03:05 PM

"I do advocate that all countries should have such equipment.
Given not sold.
Why is it OK for us but not developing countries?"
So you claim that it is ok to sell riot equipment to Assad - remembering that your comments came at the time he was massacring the citizens of Homs.
That'll d nicely thank you very much - pretty much a complete picture of your humanity
Why is it wrong to supply riot control equipment to regimes like the Syrian one?
"Your suggestion that it is ok to sell Assad riot control equipment has just been put into context by the announcement that 11,000 detainees in his torture chambers and jails have been murdered or disappeared."
Your moronic repetition of evidence of your drawing on extremist sites for your claims?
How's this for size, Blue Eyes
Jim Carroll

This is a list of targeted acts of terrorism on Christian civilians and church workers by religious Muslims since September 11th, 2001. These attacks have nothing to do with war, combat or insurgency. The victims are innocent Christians who were specifically targeted and abused solely on account of their faith by those who claim their own religion as a motive.

There may be a few anomalies on the list, as it is compiled by keyword search from our main database. Neither is this a complete account of Islamic terror attacks on Christians since much of the violence goes unreported.

(Last updated on Sunday, September 22, 2013)

Date         Country         City/State         Killed         Injured         Description
9/22/2013         Pakistan         Peshawar         61         110         Two Shahid suicide bombers obliterate over sixty worshippers at a church service.
9/14/2013         Pakistan         Karachi         1         0         A Christian's throat is slit on the street after being branded an 'infidel' and blasphemer.
9/13/2013         Tanzania         Zanzibar         0         1         Muslims throw acid on a priest, badly burning him.
9/12/2013         Egypt         Sahel Selim         2         0         Two Copts are shot to death for refusing to pay Jizya to Muslims.
9/8/2013         Syria         Maaloula         3         6         Three Christians are murdered in their home, and six others taken hostage by Islamists.
9/7/2013         Syria         Maaloula         3         0         At least three Christians are shot to death after declining an offer to embrace Islam.
9/4/2013         Syria         Maaloula         8         27         At least eight defenders are killed when Islamists storm a Christian village and shell a church.
9/4/2013         Syria         Maalula         1         0         Islamists slit the throat of a Christian for refusing to deny his faith, then taunt his fiancee.
9/3/2013         Nigeria         Gura Dabwam         3         1         Muslims gun down a devout Christian villager and his two teenage sons.
9/3/2013         Nigeria         Kunte-Kuru         6         0         A brutal assault by Muslim militia on the home of a Christian family leaves six members dead, including a 7-year-old child.
9/1/2013         Somalia         Beledweyne         1         1         A Christian woman is murdered in front of her child, in a targeted attack by Islamic radicals.
9/1/2013         Nigeria         Adu         9         3         Nine Christian villagers, including two children, are machine-gunned in their own homes by Muslim terrorists.
8/29/2013         Nigeria         Jos         5         0         Five Christians are ordered off a bus and summarily executed by Religion of Peace activists.
8/25/2013         Nigeria         Nasarawa         0         7         Thirty Muslims attack a church armed with knives and clubs.
8/18/2013         Egypt         Minya         2         0         Islamists butcher two security guards on a boat owned by Christians.
8/17/2013         Egypt         Minya         0         1         A Copt survives a brutal stabbing by Muslims while trying to put out a fire at a church.
8/17/2013         Syria         al-Hasn         15         24         Fifteen Christian villagers are reportedly massacred by Sunni terrorists.
8/17/2013         Syria         Homs         6         0         Six Christians are murdered by Sunni terrorists.
8/17/2013         Egypt         Sohag         1         0         A civilian is killed while trying to defend a church from the Muslim Brotherhood.
8/16/2013         Egypt         Alexandria         1         0         Muslim radicals pull a Christian taxi driver out of his cab and decapitate him.
8/15/2013         Egypt         Minya         2         48         Two Copts are killed and dozens more injured when Muslim Brotherhood supporters go on a church-burning rampage.
8/14/2013         Syria         Raqqa         1         0         An Italian priest is kidnapped and murdered by Islamists.
8/12/2013         Syria         Qusayr         1         0         A young Christian girl is reportedly raped, torture and murdered by Jihadis.
8/6/2013         Egypt         Ain Shams         1         0         A 10-year-old Christian girl is shot through the heart in front of her church by pro-Muslim Brotherhood activists.
8/6/2013         Syria         Jaramana         18         56         Islamists set off a powerful car bomb in a Christian suburb. At least eighteen people are slain.
8/6/2013         USA         Richmond, CA         1         0         A Muslim convert "on a mission from Allah" stabs a store clerk to death.
8/6/2013         Egypt         Souhag         1         3         Muslims attack a store owned by a Coptic family, shooting three members and kidnapping a fourth.
8/3/2013         Centrafrique         Bozoum         15         24         A baby is among at least fifteen Christian refugees massacred by the Seleka Islamic militia.
7/29/2013         Nigeria         Kano         45         15         Forty-five people lose their lives to Islamist bombers targeting Christian districts and churches.
7/27/2013         Pakistan         Okara         1         0         A Christian is beaten and executed in front of his children by Islamic gunmen.
7/15/2013         Pakistan         Quetta         1         0         Sipah-e-Sahaba terrorists kidnap and torture to death a former Sunni who converted to Shia.
7/12/2013         Egypt         Dabaaya         4         32         A Muslim bomb attacks a Christian village, burning dozens of homes and killing four Copts.
7/11/2013         Egypt         Zweid         1         0         A Christian is found beheaded several days after being kidnapped by Muslim extremists.
7/9/2013         Iraq         al-Tarmiyah         1         0         A Christian 'infidel' is kidnapped and executed by Muslim terrorists.
7/6/2013         Egypt         al-Arish         1         0         Islamic gunmen murder a Coptic priest.
7/5/2013         Egypt         Nagaa Hassan         4         4         Four Christians are brutally hacked to death by Muslim Brotherhood supporters.
7/5/2013         Pakistan         Islamabad         1         0         Islamic fundamentalists attack a local church, shooting one person to death.
7/2/2013         Nigeria         Borno         1         0         A Pentecostal pastor is gunned down by Boko Haram.
6/27/2013         Syria         Qatana         1         0         A Greek Orthodox priest is kidnapped and tortured to death by Religion of Peace proponents.
6/27/2013         Syria         Damascus         4         8         A suicide bomber detonates outside a church, killing four innocents.
6/27/2013         Syria         Idlib         2         0         Two Christians, including a priest, are reportedly kidnapped, bound and beheaded on video by Islamists.
6/25/2013         Iraq         Baghdad         0         2         Two guards are wounded when Muslims open fire on a Catholic church.
6/25/2013         Iraq         Baghdad         2         2         Islamists set off a bomb near a church, killing two people.
6/24/2013         Iraq         Baghdad         1         2         Jihadis bomb a Christian-owned store, killing a father of three.
6/23/2013         Syria         Idlib         1         0         A Catholic monk is beheaded Islamists for defending nuns.
6/18/2013         Nigeria         Bakin Rijiya         1         0         At least one resident is killed when Muslim terrorists attack a Christian village and burn four churches.
6/15/2013         Nigeria         Hwa�a         1         0         A pastor's throat is slit by Islamists upon refusal to convert.
6/11/2013         Pakistan         Sheikhupura         1         0         A Christian teen is tortured and killed on (false) suspicion of relations with a Muslim girl.
6/9/2013         Kenya         Mombasa         0         17         Islamists throw a grenade into a church during Sunday service, nearly killing a baby.
6/7/2013         Somalia         Jamaame         1         0         Islamists identify a Christian convert and publicly execute him.
6/6/2013         Bangladesh         Bolakipur         0         5         Muslim 'extremists' break in to a Catholic seminary and beat the rector and students 'with violence and brutality'.
6/2/2013         Tanzania         Geita         0         1         Religion of Peace activists enter the home of a Christian pastor and nearly hack him to death.
5/26/2013         Egypt         Cairo         1         0         Muslims abduct and kill a 6-year-old Coptic boy.
5/24/2013         Nigeria         Borno         1         0         Members of Boko Haram murder an elderly Christian woman in her home.
5/24/2013         Nigeria         Gwoza         2         0         A pastor and a church member are brutally slain by Islamist gunmen.
5/22/2013         Pakistan         Karachi         1         0         A Christian man is gunned down by two men in a targeted attack.
5/19/2013         Pakistan         Khushpur         1         3         Angry Muslims fire on a Christian village, killing a teenage student.
5/17/2013         Egypt         Alexandria         1         3         A Copt is killed during an assault by a Muslim bomb on a church.
5/15/2013         Nigeria         Maiduguri         1         0         Religion of Peace activists shoot a pastor to death in his home in front of his daughter.
5/5/2013         Nigeria         Njilan         10         0         Islamic extremists stage a Sunday morning attack on a church and a nearby cattle market, killing at least ten.
5/5/2013         Tanzania         Arusha         3         57         A 9-year-old child, a teenager and a woman bleed to death when a Muslim convert tosses a bomb into a church.
5/2/2013         Pakistan         Manghopir         2         2         Two watchmen are shot dead during an attack by the Taliban on a Belgian missionary school.
4/13/2013         Centrafrique         Bangui         1         0         A pastor is shot to death by Islamic militants at a funeral.
4/13/2013         Somalia         Buulodbarde         1         0         Islamists murder a Christian mother of five only four months after doing the same to her husband. Both were killed for leaving Islam.
4/11/2013         Egypt         Khusus         1         0         A 26-year-old Christian is doused with gasoline and set ablaze.
4/10/2013         India         Srinigar         0         9         Two children and five women are among nine Christians attacked in their home by a mob whipped into a frenzy by an imam.
4/9/2013         Nigeria         Gwoza         3         0         Islamists shoot three people in the head while they are playing cards, including a pastor's son.
4/7/2013         Egypt         Cairo         2         89         Muslim radicals attack a group of mourners leaving a church, killing one on the spot and another in subsequent clashes.
4/7/2013         Nigeria         Midlu Shalmi         14         5         Muslim radicals shoot, hack and slit the throats of fouteen Christians.
4/6/2013         Egypt         Khusus         7         17         Angry Muslims torch a church and kill seven Christians over alleged desecration.
4/4/2013         Pakistan         Manga Mandi         1         0         A 20-year-old Christian is shot in the head by Muslims calling their religion 'supreme'.
4/3/2013         Tanzania         Tunduma         2         3         Two Christians are murdered by Muslim extremists for selling non-halal meat.
4/3/2013         Pakistan         Gujranwala         0         18         Eighteen Christians are injured by a Muslim mob whipped into a frenzy by a cleric.
3/31/2013         Nigeria         Ataka         19         12         Muslim 'nomads' attack a Christian village, butchering nineteen people, including women and children.
3/28/2013         Nigeria         Barkin Ladi         9         3         Nine Christians are machine-gunned during a Muslim raid on their village.
3/26/2013         Nigeria         Riyom         36         12         Fulani 'militia' attack two Christian villages, hacking and shooting three dozen to death.
3/24/2013         USA         Ashtabula, OH         1         0         A Muslim convert walks into a church service with a Quran and guns down his Christian father while praising Allah.
3/23/2013         Somalia         Bulo Marer         0         1         A Christian convert is jailed and tortured for leaving Islam.
3/23/2013         Egypt         Cairo         0         1         Muslim Brotherhood cadres abduct a Christian and take him to a mosque for a brutal round of torture.
3/18/2013         Pakistan         Kalaswala         0         1         A Christian missionary is severely beaten by Muslim extremists.
3/18/2013         Nigeria         Kano         41         44         Over 40 Christians are blown to bits by Shahid suicide car bombers in a brutal attack.
3/17/2013         Nigeria         Torok         2         3         A Muslim fires on a Christian family, killing a baby and a 5-year-old and injuring three women.
3/14/2013         USA         Vancouver, WA         0         2         Two people suffer knife injuries when a Muslim convert attempts to stab a non-Muslim to death over religious views outside a coffee shop.
3/10/2013         Nigeria         Dakata         5         3         Five Christians are shot to death by Islamic extremists while returning home from church.
3/10/2013         Nigeria         Jama'are         7         0         Ansaru Islamists summarily execute seven 'Christian' hostages.
3/10/2013         Libya         Benghazi         1         0         A Christian arrested by Islamists for 'proselytizing' dies from 'natural causes' while being tortured.
3/9/2013         Pakistan         Lahore         0         35         A Muslim mob rampages through a Christian neighborhood, burning more than 100 homes and injuring three dozen.
3/2/2013         Tanzania         Dar Es Salaam         0         1         An Islamist attempt to hack a church bishop to death is thwarted by a guard who suffers horrific injuries.
3/2/2013         Egypt         Cairo         3         0         Three Christian brothers are machine-gunned in their home by Islamists angered over a church-building rumor.
3/2/2013         Libya         Benghazi         0         11         A priest and ten parishoners are beaten and humiliated in their own church by Muslim activists.
3/1/2013         Egypt         Kom Ombo         0         23         Muslims firebomb a church on a false rumor of a conversion.
2/24/2013         Nigeria         Fika         5         3         Islamists rampage through a Christian village, killing five people in attacks that included a church.
2/23/2013         Nigeria         Aduwan         5         11         A baby and a 13-year-old are among five innocents slain when Muslim extremists rake churches with machine-gun fire.
2/23/2013         Nigeria         Abuja         17         1         Fundamentalists storm a factory, separate Christian from Muslim workers and then murder seventeen of the former in cold blood.
2/23/2013         Egypt         Alexandria         5         0         Islamists murder four Christians and a guard outside a church.
2/22/2013         Nigeria         Kogom         10         2         Fulani Muslims hack ten Christian family members to death including five small children.
2/19/2013         Cameroon         Lake Chad         2         1         Two Christian converts are lined up and shot to death for leaving Islam.
2/18/2013         Somalia         Alanley         1         0         A 42-year-old Christian teacher and father of four is brutally executed by al-Shabaab outside his home.
2/18/2013         Netherlands         Brabant         1         0         Islamists are suspected in the murder of a Christian convert from Iran.
2/17/2013         Tanzania         Zanzibar         1         0         A priest is murdered by Muslim extremists on his way to church.
2/16/2013         Pakistan         Lahore         1         0         A 45-year-old Christian is murdered in cold blood by a Muslim arguing religion.
2/11/2013         Tanzania         Buseresere         1         0         A pastor is beheaded by a group of Muslim youth.
2/8/2013         Pakistan         Pattoki         0         3         Three Christian women are beaten and tortured by a Muslim mob in their own home.
2/7/2013         USA         Buena Vista, NJ         2         0         A Muslim targets and beheads two Christian Coptic immigrants.
2/7/2013         Kenya         Garissa         1         1         Islamists shoot two Christian pastors, killing one.
2/4/2013         Pakistan         Chaman         1         0         A Christian dies after being shot five times by Muslims angry that he would not embrace Islam.
2/1/2013         Nigeria         Samunaka         15         1         Islamists attack and burn three churches, killing at least fifteen innocents, including two children.
2/1/2013         Egypt         Alexandria         0         1         A Christian woman is stabbed on the street by Muslim hardliners.
1/28/2013         Turkey         Istanbul         1         0         An 85-year-old Christian woman is stabbed to death by an attacker who then carves a cross on her body.
1/16/2013         Nigeria         Jos         4         2         Four Christians are the victims of a Muslim drive-by.
1/16/2013         Algeria         Tigantourine         2         6         Armed Islamists attack an oil field, killing two people they identified as Christians and kidnapping over a hundred workers.
1/15/2013         Norway         Haugesund         0         2         A Muslim stabs two Christians who converted from Islam.
1/9/2013         Pakistan         Bahawalpur         1         0         Muslim stab a 19-year-old Christian to death for seeing a Muslim girl.
1/8/2013         Iraq         Mosul         1         12         A car bomb at a supermarket in a Christian area kills a medical student.
1/7/2013         Iraq         Mosul         1         0         A female Christian teacher's throat is cut by dedicated Muslims.
12/31/2012         Syria         Ras al-Ayn         1         0         A pregnant Christian woman is left widowed after her husband is beheaded by Islamic radicals and fed to dogs.
12/30/2012         Nigeria         Kyachi         15         0         Islamists invade a church service on Sunday morning, tie up fifteen worshippers and execute them. (Follows similar attack elsewhere two days earlier).
12/30/2012         Libya         Misrata         2         2         Islamists toss a hand grenade at worshippers leaving a Coptic church, killing two.
12/30/2012         Pakistan         Ittehad Chowk         1         1         Gunmen fire at two Christian brothers in a targeted attack. One later dies of injuries.
12/28/2012         Nigeria         Musari         15         0         Islamists tie up fifteen women and children inside a church, then slit their throats while shouting praises to Allah.
12/28/2012         Turkey         Samatya         1         0         An 84-year-old Christian woman is stabbed to death by a Muslim in what is called a 'racist' attack.
12/27/2012         Pakistan         Quetta         1         0         A Christian girl is shot execution style through the head.
12/26/2012         Sudan         Buram         4         0         A 70-year-old woman and two children are among four Christians killed in an Islamic bomb attack.
12/26/2012         Nigeria         Bachit         5         0         Suspected Fulani murder three villagers, including a married couple, in attacks on two Christian homes.
12/25/2012         Pakistan         Iqbal         0         12         At least a dozen Christian men, women and children s are set on with guns and iron rods by a Muslim mob outside their church.
12/25/2012         Tanzania         Zanzibar City         0         1         A Catholic priest is shot in the chest by Muslim gunmen.
12/25/2012         Nigeria         Peri         6         4         A pastor and five worshippers are slaughtered in a Religion of Peace attack on a Christmas morning church service.
12/25/2012         Nigeria         Rim         1         0         A Christian is killed in his home by Fulani gunmen in front of his family.
12/24/2012         Nigeria         Maiduguri         6         0         Six people are killed in a Christmas Eve church attack by Religion of Peace gunmen.
12/18/2012         Sudan         Eire         5         1         Two 4-year-olds and a baby are among a Christian family of five killed in an Islamic bombing.
12/8/2012         Somalia         Beledweyne         1         0         Religion of Peace activists shoot 55-year-old Christian to death for leaving Islam.
12/6/2012         Nigeria         Yankaba         2         0         Two Christian teenagers are executed by gunmen on a motorcycle yelling, 'Allah akbar'.
12/3/2012         Pakistan         Lahore         1         0         A 72-year-old female Christian charity worker is shot in the neck by suspected Islamists.
12/2/2012         Nigeria         Chibok         10         0         Religion of Peace proponents invade a Christian village in the middle of the night and massacre ten residents.
12/1/2012         Nigeria         Gamboru Ngala         2         0         Two guards die when Muslims shouting 'Allah Akbar' burn churches.
11/25/2012         Nigeria         Jaji         15         30         Two suicide bombers massacre fifteen worshippers at a Protestant church.
11/22/2012         Nigeria         Bichi         4         2         Angry Muslims riot, burn churches and kills four Christians over a rumor of blasphemy concerning a t-shirt.
11/18/2012         Nigeria         Maiduguri         1         0         An 70-year-old retired Protestant pastor is executed in cold blood by Islamic extremists.
11/17/2012         Sudan         South Kordofan         3         3         Three Christian villagers are killed in two targeted bombing attacks by the Islamic republic.
11/16/2012         Syria         Aleppo         20         60         Sunnis detonate a bomb outside an Orthodox church that leaves at least twenty dead.
11/16/2012         Somalia         Barawa         1         0         A Christian convert is beheaded for leaving the Religion of Peace.
11/16/2012         Nigeria         Maiduguri         3         0         Three Christian traders are shot to death by Boko Haram.
11/15/2012         Nigeria         Madauchi-Zonkwa         5         0         Muslim radicals are suspected in the slaughter and burning of a Christian family in their home.
11/10/2012         Nigeria         Gaidam         5         0         Five Christian iron welders are slaughtered in their own home by Boko Haram gunmen.
11/4/2012         Kenya         Garissa         1         10         One person dies from splinter injuries when Islamists toss a grenade at a church.
10/30/2012         Syria         Homs         1         0         An 84-year-old Christian is murdered by Sunnis.
10/28/2012         Syria         Jaramana         12         69         Twelve people outside a bakery in a Christian district are exterminated in a targeted bomb attack.
10/28/2012         Egypt         Cairo         0         5         Five Christians are injured by Muslims trying to block their way into church.
10/28/2012         Sudan         Delami         1         9         The Islamic Republic of Sudan aerial bombs several Christian villages, killing a 1-year-old baby.
10/28/2012         Nigeria         Kaduna         7         100         Seven worshippers are murdered when a suicide car bomber plows into a Catholic church during mass.
10/27/2012         Syria         Deir Ezzor         5         24         Terrorists set off a car bomb in front of a church, killing five innocents.
10/25/2012         Syria         Qatana         1         0         An Orthodox priest is horribly tortured and murdered by Muslim 'criminals'. His eyes were gouged out.
10/21/2012         Syria         Damascus         13         29         A bomb targeting Christians on their way to church leaves thirteen dead.
10/21/2012         Nigeria         Atagara         2         0         Two people are killed when Islamic radicals torch a church.
10/19/2012         Lebanon         Beirut         8         78         A car bomb blast in a Christian suburb leaves eight dead, including children.
10/16/2012         Indonesia         Masani         2         0         Jamaah Anshorut Tauhid murder two investigators of a church bombing by stabbing them in the neck.
10/14/2012         Nigeria         Yogbo         30         0         Thirty people are left dead when Muslims resolve a "land dispute" by massacring thirty Christian villagers, mostly women and children.
10/14/2012         Egypt         Abdelmassih         2         3         Two members of a Christian family are shot to death in their own home by a Muslim gang attempting to kidnap and convert a 24-year-old female relative.
10/14/2012         Nigeria         Maiduguri         3         0         A family of three is cut down outside their church by Islamist gunmen.
10/10/2012         Nigeria         Riyom         14         5         Three children and their mother are among over a dozen Christians are slaughtered during a Muslim raid on their village.
10/10/2012         Nigeria         Dallyam         4         4         Muslim terrorists shoot four members of a Christian

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 05:59 PM

When I suggested supplying Assad with non-lethal equipment, he was shooting down demonstrators with lethal weapons and ammunition supplied by Russia and China.
I do not understand why you think lethal is preferable.

It is not acceptable to shoot our people, but it is OK for others?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 12:36 AM

And, I got that list from Mudcat, not any "extremist" or "hate" site.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 12:44 AM

No post of mine contains that list anyway.
I just referred to it as posted on Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 04:15 AM

Sorry Keith, but posting is posting. If I used the term "we" I would make it perfectly clear I was quoting, just as you usually do. So when you fail to do so, it makes it less clear whether you mean us or them when you say we.

Us being whatever you want it to mean and them being whatever you want them to mean.

You didn't perchance read Lewis Carroll books as a child did you?

Just wondering.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 05:39 AM

"And, I got that list from Mudcat, not any "extremist" or "hate" site."
That is the list you have been defending as "having checked and not finding anything wrong"
That is the list from which the five examples (all found incorrect) you put up.
Surely you're not going to blame little Boo Boo?
Nothing on selling riot equipment to Assad I see.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 06:00 AM

I have not "been defending" any list.

When the list was posted, like you I was highly suspicious of it.
Like you, I checked its entries looking for untruths.
Like you, I was unable to find any.

Unlike you, I was honest about my findings.
You claimed to have found false entries, but would not tell us which ones.

How could anyone believe that?

You accused me of "drawing his information from extremist racist sites,"
You try to discredit me with lies because you can not challenge what I actually say.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 06:06 AM

Re my advocacy that all countries should have access to non-lethal gear (given not sold).
Previous discussion.

"I stated that non-lethal is preferable to lethal.
Disagree Jim?
I also suggested that supplying non-lethal equipment, to a regime that ALREADY HAS copious quantities of lethal weapons, and willing suppliers of more, would do no harm and might do some good.

State clearly why you disagree and why it makes me an imbecile Jim?

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Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 14 Mar 12 - 07:12 AM

"Disagree Jim?"
OF COURSE I ******* DO"

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 09:59 AM

"Troubadour, I do not know how I would react to the butchering with machetes of people I love, so I would not judge these people.

The cannibal had his pregnant wife, his sister, and her baby chopped up."

Thank you K A, for stepping right into the clarts.

When a Christian kills a Muslim, you quite rightly look at the individual case to find reasons OTHER than religion which were part of what caused his action.

When Muslims attack or kill Christians, you KNOW that there is no other reason than religion.

Your double standards are horribly exposed.

And NO! I have no such experiences, and neither do you, so if that disqualifies me from having an opinion, same for YOU TOO!

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 11:23 AM

Seleka had been massacring Christians. Thousands fled their homes.

I deplore the Christians seeking revenge and carrying out reprisals for the brutal murders inflicted on them.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 11:29 AM

""I stated that non-lethal is preferable to lethal."
Imbecile sums it up
Whether or not other nations supply Assad with anything Britain should not supply any equipment to a murderous regime, especially not that which can be used to quash opposition and enable the Syrian authorities to round up the troublemakers and ship them off to their torture chambers as has obviously happened.
Assad's record on human rights has been known for at least a decade before the present troubles broke out - despite this the British Government continued supplying weapons and riot control equipment
Trading military equipment with murderous dictators not only gives them the wherewithal to murder and control the opposition - but it also gives them the kudos that comes with trading with the west.
Defectors from Assad's regime have pointed out how much he values his links with Britain - by trading, Britain has not only supported him in his terrorism, but it has retained those links, rather an breaking it as an act of opposition (which was being called for by his opponents.
Nioot forgetting, of course, that the chemicals that were sold by Britain helped him to create a stockpile of chemical weapons.
"would do no harm and might do some good."
Have go gone completely out of your ******* mind???
Yes you have been defending that list
You claimed from the beginning it was true and challenged us to disprove those claims
You produced half a dozen that you claimed proved your case (every single one flawed) and went on defending them after these flaws had been pointed out
Want me to cut-'n-paste all this or would you rather crawl up this thread and see for yourself?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 11:43 AM

We know why the Christians formed their own militia and carried out reprisals.(That is not to condone the crimes.)

I know of no reason why the Islamists made unprovoked attacks on the Christians, except that they were Christians.
None has been reported.
Do you know of any?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 11:48 AM

Yes you have been defending that list
You claimed from the beginning it was true and challenged us to disprove those claims

No. I did not accept any of it, until I made checks.

You produced half a dozen that you claimed proved your case (every single one flawed) and went on defending them after these flaws had been pointed out

No flaws have been pointed out.
I only posted two that I checked this week.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 12:54 PM

"No. I did not accept any of it, until I made checks."
So you now accept it?
"No flaws have been pointed out."
Now you are openly lying - which is fine by me
Can we have a little more on your continuing proposal to sell Assad riot control equipment please?
Jim Carroll


Date: 17 Jan 14 - 03:04 PM
Had a quick shufi through the first five items on Keith's list
1   All information from this comes from extremist web-sites
2   Police blame either terrorists or criminal gangs - no arrests, no definite suspects
3   Nothing
4   All information from extremist websites
5   Syrian rebels fighting Assad - nothing whatever to do with sectarian persecution, part of the Syrian revolt - all residents fled - no fatalities.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 12:54 PM

"No. I did not accept any of it, until I made checks."
So you now accept it?
"No flaws have been pointed out."
Now you are openly lying - which is fine by me
Can we have a little more on your continuing proposal to sell Assad riot control equipment please?
Jim Carroll


Date: 17 Jan 14 - 03:04 PM
Had a quick shufi through the first five items on Keith's list
1   All information from this comes from extremist web-sites
2   Police blame either terrorists or criminal gangs - no arrests, no definite suspects
3   Nothing
4   All information from extremist websites
5   Syrian rebels fighting Assad - nothing whatever to do with sectarian persecution, part of the Syrian revolt - all residents fled - no fatalities.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 01:09 PM

Please be going on with these while I sort the test out -you lyoing, stupid toe-rag
Jim Carroll

"All the items I checked were correct, and neither you nor anyone else was able to find one single false entry"

"I recognised some entries, and checked a few I did not recognise.
I found no false entries, and would be very surprised if you have.
I find it hard to believe.
Help me out by identifying a false entry, because you have been known to make stuff up.
What reason could you possibly have to withhold information that would make Bobad and me look silly?"

"Like you, I checked its entries looking for untruths.
Like you, I was unable to find any.
Unlike you, I was honest about my findings.
You claimed to have found false entries, but would not or could not tell us which ones.
How could anyone believe that?"

"Jim, I challenged you to identify a single incident that was not true.
All the ones I checked were, and I remembered many more.
I do not think the list was untrue, whoever published it."

"I have checked through many and also remember many of the incidents."

"Jim, I have no reasons why you should believe this list or anything else.
That is why I checked it myself.
It checks out.
Sorry, but it does, and I know you have also checked.
It hardly matters where it came from if it is true.
Neither of us can find a single fault with it, so what is your objection?"

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 02:49 PM

That is not supporting, that is checking because I had doubts.

You have not identified any incident that you think did not happen.

Re non-lethal kit.
Assad was already using his plentiful supply of guns and bullets on his people.
How could giving him non-lethal kit make things worse?
Maybe some lives might be saved.
I think all regimes, however bad, should at least have access to water squirters etc.
Guns and bullets they already have.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 03:10 PM

That is not supporting, that is checking because I had doubts."

"Jim, I have no reasons why you should believe this list or anything else.
That is why I checked it myself.
It checks out.
Sorry, but it does, and I know you have also checked.
It hardly matters where it came from if it is true.
Neither of us can find a single fault with it, so what is your objection?"

You checked it and kept supporting it - this is your quote - or is someone pulling your stunt of posting in a fake identity
I'm delighted that you are still defending supplying riot control gear to Assad - when do you reckon the next batch is due to be shipped from Britain - when the dust settles after their having sold him chemicals for his chemical weapons arsenal
Keep it coming Keith and keep on lying - as the an from Tesco said "every little helps".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 05:53 PM

I do not lie remember.
Believing non-lethal kit is better than using real guns and live rounds on people does not make me bad.

I did not support the list.
I doubted it and tested it.
It is not my fault it turned out to be true.
Neither of us could find any fault, so you support it as much as me.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jan 14 - 05:26 AM

You checked it and kept supporting it - this is your quote

No.
I doubted it.
I tested it.
I said honestly what I found.

How does that make me bad?
Justify accusing me of "drawing his information from extremist racist sites,"
I found it here!

How does my preference for non-lethal kit make me bad?

You try to discredit me because you can not debate against me.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 24 Jan 14 - 06:37 AM

Am I still allowed to be an obnoxious twat on this thread?

Oh good.



Seig Heil Keith!

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jan 14 - 07:00 AM

"I do not lie remember."
You just have - by denying that you supported an extremist thread when the evidence that you did was put in front of you - and by saying "I do not lie remember."
"IT CHECKS OUT.
SORRY, BUT IT DOES, AND I KNOW YOU HAVE ALSO CHECKED.
IT HARDLY MATTERS WHERE IT CAME FROM IF IT IS TRUE.
NEITHER OF US CAN FIND A SINGLE FAULT WITH IT, SO WHAT IS YOUR OBJECTION?"
Despite the fact that Assad used British supplied water cannons, armoured cars and tear gas to subdue the then peaceful protests to his terrorism, and in spite of his record of human rights abuses, torture, chemical warfare and mass murder, you continue to advocate that selling such equipment (or anything) to him was and is not only acceptable but desirable.
You seem to have added "Assad supporter" to your already glowing C.V.
Well done you.
I think there is more than enough evidence to charge you with being an extremely disturbed and dangerous nutter.
I'm pretty confident that even your best friends will have the good sense to think twice before they become involved with your rantings for fear of becoming contaminated by your infectious bile.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 24 Jan 14 - 07:09 AM

Just thought of what I was going to say when I started the last post.

No such thing as lethal kit. No such thing as non lethal kit. Just lethal people, and those who apologise for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jan 14 - 07:50 AM

Me an apologist for Assad?
I was the first person to start a thread deploring what he was doing, and have never stopped deploring his behaviour.

Jim, checking is not supporting.
You checked it too.
I was just honest about what we found.

So, now you have failed to make me a monster, let's discuss the issues and not me for a change.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jan 14 - 07:52 AM

That was me.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jan 14 - 09:05 AM

You have just recommended that it is permissible to be supplied with riot equipment - which - was - the end result being that to date 17,000 dissidents disappeared from or have died in his prisons and torture chambers.
Are you so insane as to not recognise the fact that if a torturer is equipped with riot control equipment he will use it to subdue dissidents, round up the ringleaders and torture and murder them?
Your lip service to opposition is totally contradicted by both the facts of what happened when he subdued opposition and your continuing insistence that there was nothing wrong with Britain supplying it - and your claim that the Assads of this world be supplied with any military or equipment to be used on their own population
This really has become like addressing an extremely disturbed and backward child
It is only worth going on with in the hope you will never be allowed to do it again
Gone!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jan 14 - 11:46 AM

I was fascinated by a letter which appeared in this morning's Irish Times which (presumably) gave the Church's view on the subject of Ne Temere, a Church ruling which set up the requirements that all mixed marriages of Catholic and non-Catholic could only take place with the Church's blessing and by agreement that any children should be brought up Catholics.
It was a practice that led to the break-up of happy marriages and the removal of children if the church deemed it necessary.
Loaded phrases like "much more posi¬tive", "in the context of the overall good of the mar¬riage", "it is not uncommon", and the excuse that 'it was all the fault of the Reformation', makes it quite clear that the Church still considers itself in full control of the lives of the faithful.
In the light of continuing revelations of decades of child abuse and the fact that Ne Temere remains on the statute books, it's fairly obvious that the Christian Church remains every bit a potential threat to our well-being as any other given the opportunity.
As I have been suggesting, any religion with a modicum of power is likely to abuse that power in order to retain its grip on peoples'   
Jim Carroll

"Mixed marriages and 'Ne Temere'
Sir, -I was moved and saddened by Helga Faiers's letter (January 20th). The church of the past has a lot to answer for.
It was a time when relations between the churches were at an all-time low. Resulting from the legacy of the nuanced reformation, the churches had gone their antagonistic and separate ways.
Now, however, when inter-church relations are warm¬er the practices around mixed marriage are much more positive.
First, the question of the baptism of any children to a mixed marriage is much nuanced.
The rights and preferences of each party must be tak¬en into account in the context of the overall good of the marriage.
Second, it is not uncommon for the minister for the non-Catholic party to be the sole officiator in his/her church with the full blessing of the Catholic authorities.
We have come a long way since the bad old days, circa 1953.-
Yours, etc
Fr EDWARD DOWNES CC, The Presbytery, Valleymount, Co Wicklow."

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jan 14 - 11:46 AM

I was fascinated by a letter which appeared in this morning's Irish Times which (presumably) gave the Church's view on the subject of Ne Temere, a Church ruling which set up the requirements that all mixed marriages of Catholic and non-Catholic could only take place with the Church's blessing and by agreement that any children should be brought up Catholics.
It was a practice that led to the break-up of happy marriages and the removal of children if the church deemed it necessary.
Loaded phrases like "much more posi¬tive", "in the context of the overall good of the mar¬riage", "it is not uncommon", and the excuse that 'it was all the fault of the Reformation', makes it quite clear that the Church still considers itself in full control of the lives of the faithful.
In the light of continuing revelations of decades of child abuse and the fact that Ne Temere remains on the statute books, it's fairly obvious that the Christian Church remains every bit a potential threat to our well-being as any other given the opportunity.
As I have been suggesting, any religion with a modicum of power is likely to abuse that power in order to retain its grip on peoples'   
Jim Carroll

"Mixed marriages and 'Ne Temere'
Sir, -I was moved and saddened by Helga Faiers's letter (January 20th). The church of the past has a lot to answer for.
It was a time when relations between the churches were at an all-time low. Resulting from the legacy of the nuanced reformation, the churches had gone their antagonistic and separate ways.
Now, however, when inter-church relations are warm¬er the practices around mixed marriage are much more positive.
First, the question of the baptism of any children to a mixed marriage is much nuanced.
The rights and preferences of each party must be tak¬en into account in the context of the overall good of the marriage.
Second, it is not uncommon for the minister for the non-Catholic party to be the sole officiator in his/her church with the full blessing of the Catholic authorities.
We have come a long way since the bad old days, circa 1953.-
Yours, etc
Fr EDWARD DOWNES CC, The Presbytery, Valleymount, Co Wicklow."

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jan 14 - 04:19 PM

It is simple Jim.
Civilised and developed countries deploy non-lethal weapons because dead protestors are unacceptable to us.
Why would you deny that to Arabs and others?

Dictators like Assad are happy to gun down their people.
Non-lethal equipment is not as good as real guns for repression.
Non-lethal can not make things any worse, and just might make them better.
See the Geneva Forum.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jan 14 - 04:31 PM

http://www.tamingwar.com/non-lethal-weapons-and-peace/

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jan 14 - 05:23 PM

Apocalypse When
The consequences of your and your friends' support of Islamophobic terrorism
From the Irish Times
Jim Carroll   


Capitalising On Fears Of Race And Religion
Lara Marlowe in Paris

The National Front is proving adept at stoking concerns over radical Islam for political gain
The jihadists who leave France to fight the regime of Bashar al Assad in Syria symbol¬ise an Islamist "fifth column" within France, perhaps the most potent of fears associated with immigration. Some of the jihadists, such as JeanDaniel and Nicolas Bons, brothers from Toulouse who died fighting in Syria last year, are Christians who converted to Islam. Their fate gives substance to French paranoia about conta¬gion by radical Islam.
Their father, Gerard Bon, has founded an association to fight the recruitment of young Frenchmen for jihad. The govern¬ment fears that jihadists will return from Syria to carry out attacks in France. So re¬turning veterans are threatened with 15 years in prison for having participated in "terrorism" ironic, since president Fran¬cois Hollande has called for Assad's down¬fall. Bons recounts how his sons told him that the prospect of years in prison dissuad¬ed them from coming home.
French intelligence says 700 French and foreigners living in France are in¬volved in the Syrian jihad; 250 as combat¬ants. On January 19th, interior minister Manuel Vails said "they represent for me the greatest danger we shall have to face in coming years".
Though the government does not break down figures between converts and the children of Arab Muslim immigrants, the latter are more numerous.

French jihadists
They include Sofiane (19), who left his fami¬ly in Roubaix last July. His mother re¬ceived a telephone call two months later saying he'd died near Aleppo. Or Brahim (17), who left for school on the morning of December 18th, then called to tell his par¬ents he was on his way to Syria. Or two 15yearolds who left Toulouse on January 6th, also bound for Syria. The government says 21French jihadists have died, and that a dozen of the hundreds who've departed for Syria are minors.
Asked about French jihadists earlier this month, Marine Le Pen, the leader of the antiimmigrant National Front (FN) re¬plied smugly: "It's hard to fight the quenel¬le and jihadists at the same time." (The quenelle is an allegedly anti-Semitic ges¬ture invented by the humorist Dieudonne,

Merab, the 23year old son of Algerian immigrants who killed seven people, including three Jewish children, in early 2012.

The FN has been anti-immigrant and anti-European since its foundation by Jean-Marie Le Pen in 1972. There have been three stages in its antiimmigrant ra¬tionale, says Prof Pascal Perrineau, one of France's leading political scientists and an expert on the rise of the FN. The first fo¬cused on unemployment, the second on crime and the most recent on Islam.
In the 1970s, when Valery Giscard d'Es taing established the policy of regroupement familial to enable the families of im¬migrant workers to join them, the FN's posters said "One million immigrants = one million jobless".
That theme continues today, while the number of unemployed has quintupled. "When a country has five million jobless, by definition, when you import immi¬grants, you're importing unemployed peo¬ple," Le Pen says.
The founders of the FN were mostly sup¬porters of L'Algerie Francaise, who op¬posed independence for Algeria in the
The message... was also that Islam threatens our cultural model; that we can never integrate a Muslim community that harbours radical Islam as surely as clouds carry storms Prof Pascal Perrineau
19541962 war.
"Since the majority of immigrants came from Algeria, Morocco and Tunisia, the hostility was in part based on resentment towards countries considered ungrateful to France, particularly Algeria," Prof Per¬rineau says. "There's an element of set¬tling historic accounts."
Young FN supporters have forgotten the war, but Marine Le Pen brought it up spontaneously with journalists, and it still weighs on the oldtimers.
Le Pen's father Jean-Marie frequently pointed out the high numbers of immi¬grants among the French prison popula¬tion. The FN's programme still calls for the expulsion of all immigrants convicted of a crime.
In his 1995 book The Crisis Vote, Prof Perrineau coined the phrase "gaucholepe nisme" to describe the shift by unem¬ployed French workers from the commu¬nist and socialist parties to the FN, on the grounds that immigrants "stole our jobs". Today, 33 per cent of French workers and was waning. Realising the impact the at¬tacks on the World Trade Center would have on the FN's fortunes, young militants drank champagne while the towers burned on September 11th, 2001. They were reprimanded, and Jean-Marie Le Pen sent condolences to George W Bush.
When fundamentalist Muslims carried out attacks in London, Paris and Madrid, the FN explicitly associated immigration with radical Islam.
"The message was, 'watch out'. Immi¬gration is not only the vector of economic competition and insecurity," Prof Per¬rineau recalls. "It was also that Islam threatens our cultural model; that we can never integrate a Muslim community that harbours radical Islam as surely as clouds carry storms."
France "can no longer assimilate new Frenchmen," says the FN programme. "Ghettos, interracial conflict, sectarian demands and politico-religious provoca¬tion are the direct consequences of mas¬sive immigration that threatens our identi¬ty and carries ever more visible Islamisation." Le Pen often lists "veils, burkas and cathedrallike mosques" as the symptoms of Islamisation, and says she's fighting to prevent France becoming a caliphate or Is¬lamic state.
Incitement to hatred
Two antiracist groups have filed lawsuits against Marine Le Pen for her December 2010 comparison of Muslims praying in French streets to the German army's occu¬pation of France during the second World War. The EU parliament has lifted her immunity as an MEP, and she may stand trial for incitement to racial hatred.
"I prefer my daughters to my cousins, my cousins to my neighbours, my neigh¬bours to strangers," Jean-Marie Le Pen said for decades, explaining his policy of "national preference". Marine's modern¬ised FN has changed the term to "national priority," but she, like her father, still con¬demns the "sucking pumps" of welfare pay¬ments and other benefits which attract im¬migrants to France.
"Whatever his race or religion, a French person must have priority of access to em¬ployment and housing," Le Pen says. "Even if I disagree with the way a lot of them acquired French nationality, I would nottry to take it away from them."
Le Pen says she would reduce legal im¬migration to France from 200,000 to
annually. All illegal immigrants would be expelled, and French law would be altered to make future legalisations im¬possible. Demonstrations by illegal immi¬grants or those who support them would be banned.
The FN would rescind the 40yearold policy of family reunification, renounce the Schengen accords on freedom of move¬ment in Europe, and reduce the maximum duration of a residence card from 10 to three years. The FN would abolishJus soli, the right of anyone born in France to citi¬zenship. Foreigners who lose their jobs would be expelled after a year's unemploy¬ment.
Jean-Marie Le Pen's prophecy of the "Le Penisation of (French) minds" seems to have come true. Polls show that three quarters of French people believe Islam is "not compatible with French values". Twothirds say there are too many foreign¬ers in France, while 59 per cent say that "in general, immigrants don't try to inte¬grate." At the same time, acceptance of the FN has grown 47 per cent say it's "a useful party".

Feverish disputes
Immigration was the backdrop to feverish political disputes in recent months: the "Leonarda affair", when the expulsion of a 15yearold Roma schoolgirl with her fami¬ly backfired on the Hollande administra¬tion; the government's climbdown after 250 experts delivered a report on integration to the prime minister which said schoolgirls should be allowed to wear head scarves and Arabic could be taught in French schools. "We're not in Britain or Canada, where women can go around in hi jab and kids can demand halal meals in schools," says Prof Perrineau. "France just doesn't work that way."
An opinion poll in October showed the FN would win 24 per cent of the vote in Eu¬ropean parliamentary elections on May 25th, two points ahead of the conservative UMP and five points ahead of the social¬ists.
France is the second most powerful country in the EU, after Germany. If the FN comes in first on May 25th, it will be a political earthquake, comparable to Jean-Marie Le Pen's qualifying for the runoff in the 2002 presidential election.
And a wave of disquiet will run through France's immigrant population

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jan 14 - 05:35 PM

So you've chosed "World Citizens of Australia Bulletin" to justify tour support for a mass murderer - would you like to tell us who they are and what their qualifications are - maybe thy're "genuine historians" - you get more and more pathetic every time you post
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jan 14 - 05:56 PM

With the greatest respect for their ideals -

http://www.worldcitizens.org.au/

Wow
A bit "Loonie left for you, but those qualifications!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jan 14 - 02:23 AM

Jim, we disagree on the benefit of non-lethal equipment over the lethal kind.
That does not make either of us a monster.

Why wont you just debate instead of constantly trying to demonize?

As soon as you start to lose you make an outrageous claim that some years old post makes me evil, as if that wins the argument for you!

It just revives years old arguments.
People plead with us to stop, but you keep doing it.

We are discussion religious persecution.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jan 14 - 03:37 AM

"some years old post"
You continue to support your "old" argument and are still claiming that it is permissible to supply the greatest torturer and butcher in the world today, still torturing and butchering, with equipment which has already assisted him in his torture and butchery.
Far from this being an "old" argument - it is what you are saying now, on this forum.
You have also claimed and defended that it wasn't wrong to sell him sniper bullets and the wherewithal to manufacture chemical weapons (admitted by the British Government under pressure and withdrawn, defended by you.
We are discussing religious persecution - you have never ceased in indulging in persecuting those who don't share your Christian views - British and Palestinian Muslims.
Your continuing behaviour has made you Mudcat's sole 'Untouchable' I am delighted that this is the case.
It has also implicated at least one of your supporters who I don't believe to be deserving of being smeared with your insanely wielded slime-brush.
I keep promising myself that I have finished here, but I have to confess I find your revolting and more and more revealing behaviour mesmerising, so I suppose I will go on while you continue to show us what a revolting individual you are.
You want it to stop?
The answer lies in your own hands - go away and stop using Mudcat as a platform for your messages of hate and intolerance.
("World Citizens of Australia Bulletin" - Jay-sus, made my day)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Jan 14 - 03:38 AM

Yes, I know I said I'd gone. So I'm back. So wotsit 2U?

Why bother, Keith? He is just going to go dragging up that post he misunderstood all those years back, & he won't stop, coz it's become an obsessive compulsion with him. Don't you recognise an OCD when you see one?

The thing is, that rational discusser of folksong, and respected contributor to its history, turns into an irrational cliché-parroting booby whenever his instamatic "I-spot-a-racist" button is pressed — unfortunately an inefficient mechanism that can't actually distingish racism from a hole in the ground. So you had really better just forget it, hadn't you, and leave him to his weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Anyhow, he enjoys it. It's his hobby. Why louse up the poor old fella's pleasure? Just leave him to it, why dontcha?

But I know you won't. You''ll rise & he'll rise & he'll rise & you'll rise [tune Lieber Augustin].

Oh wotza-use! I'm off again.

Ta-ra

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jan 14 - 04:21 AM

"that post he misunderstood"
Misunderstood - Mike?
He's confirmed that this continues to be his opinion ever since and each time, he's added to it with further revelations.
You really should be ashamed of yourself at allowing yourself to sink to his level (but maybe you were already there and we didn't notice)

You asked for 'Christian persecution – you've got it.
I watched an extremely moving interview with Philomena Lee, the woman whose experiences at the hands of the world's leading Christian church inspired the prize-winning film, 'Philomena'.
As a sixteen year old girl she became pregnant and was taken into care by a group of 'Christian' nuns in a Monaghan convent.
Her son was removed from her against her will and sold to a wealthy American family – she surreptitiously witnessed their taking the child away of the child through the upstairs window of the convent.
Fifty years later she decided to trace her son's whereabouts and approached the Sisters – The mother superior in charge of the sale was still alive and residing at the convent where the sale took place.
The Convent administrators denied all knowledge of her son's whereabouts, (despite the fact that their records contained all the details of the transaction) but agreed to help her.
After a series of attempts on Philomena's part to find her son, with no co-operation whatever from the convent, she was offered assistance by BBC television reporter Martin Sixsmith, who took traced him and took her to the U.S. to find out what had happened to him in the intervening years.
They discovered that he was an important member of staff of the then U.S. President – he had died a few years previously.
On returning to Ireland, she visited the convent, but was still refused information on the details of the sale of her son.
When leaving, they discovered that, terminally ill, he had returned to Ireland to seek out his mother, but was refused help by the nuns
At his request he was buried in the grounds with an inscription carved on his tombstone "so that my mother can find me if she ever wished to".
It transpires that they had only agreed to his burial there if he 'donated' $20,000 to the convent.
The nuns had totally covered up this information throughout her search.
It also transpires that the Catholic (Christian) church, in cahoots with the Irish Government illegally sold over 2,000 children to wealthy America families.
It seems that the Christian churches not only indulge in persecution, but they make a profit from doing so – I don't think I've heard that accusation being levelled at Islam – have you?
Will continue passing on this type of information as it comes up, or until you walk away from it
Jim Carroll

Not sure whether or not this type of "Christian Pesecution" registers on the 'persecution Richter scale' – probably not, as it's only persecution carried out by the Christian Church – not significant enough, I should imagine!

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jan 14 - 05:08 AM

Far from this being an "old" argument - it is what you are saying now, on this forum.

Only because you dredged it up from years ago and misrepresented what I said!
Stop doing it.

When you are losing an argument, claiming I am evil by misrepresenting something I said years ago, does not turn you into a winner.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jan 14 - 06:14 AM

Didn't misinterpret it - it wasn't open to misinterpretation
You have never claimed it as a "misinterpretation" - you said you only said it because somebody else told you to, and your present responses show that your opinions remain the same (ony have got a little ,ore revolting as time goes by
I will continue to bring up your past record as long as you insist on using this forum as a hate platform
I haven't even got started yet - lots more to choose from.
You appear to have mis-fired in attempting to grasp your friend's lifeline, congratulations for proving him as big a dissembler as you though.
Today's times reports that 240 people from ethnic groups have been slaughtered by Buddhists.
It also carries the accusation that the lifting of the turban ban in Britain is a sop to the Sikh population to offset the likely damage from the new revelations that the Thatcher Government was secretly involved in the Golden Temple massacre
As I said - they're all at it - Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists...
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Jan 14 - 06:49 AM

☞〠☜

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jan 14 - 06:51 AM

O - by the way - you are evil; no question
Go and take a peek at what you've written
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jan 14 - 07:12 AM

Assyrian International News Agency 16 hours ago.

"The near-annihilation of the world's most ancient communities of Christians.

The persecution of Christians throughout the Middle East, as well as the silence with which it has been met in the West, are the subject of journalist Ed West's Kindle Single "The Silence of Our Friends." The booklet is a brisk and chilling litany of horrors: Discriminatory laws, mass graves, unofficial pogroms, and exile. The persecuted are not just Coptic and Nestorian Christians who have relatively few co-communicants in the West, but Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants as well.

Throughout the Middle East the pattern is the same. Christians are murdered in mob violence or by militant groups. Their churches are bombed, their shops destroyed, and their homes looted. Laws are passed making them second-class citizens, and the majority of them eventually leave."

"And yet the Western world is largely ignorant of or untroubled by programmatic violence against Christians. Ed West, citing the French philosopher Regis Debray, distils the problem thusly: "The victims are 'too Christian' to excite the Left, and 'too foreign' to excite the Right."

Church leaders outside the Middle East are afraid to speak out, partly because they fear precipitating more violence. (Seven churches were fire-bombed in Iraq after Pope Benedict XVI quoted an ancient criticism of Islam in an academic speech in Germany.) Oddly, unlike Iran, Saudi Arabia, Israel, and Russia, the U.S. and the U.K. are the only powers acting in the Middle East that do not take any special interest in the safety of those with whom they have a historical religious affinity.

These are the lands in which Jesus' apostles and their disciples made some of the first Christian converts. In an interview, West pointed out that these communities "were Christian when our ancestors were worshipping trees and stones." Now they are in danger of imminent extinction."
http://www.aina.org/news/20140124134452.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Jan 14 - 07:45 AM

Keith ~~ You are a fool to keep on & on provoking the vicious idiot.

Jim ~~ In this particular, you are a fool tout simple.

Michael ~~ You are a fool to stay around on this arsewipe of a thread.

So -- this time really --

Goodbye, thread.

There's another thread refreshed about how someone has to be last on any thread. If any sense anywhere around, this post will be it here.

Anyone holding breath?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jan 14 - 09:09 AM

And you are a spineless fool to dip and out whenever his screaming bigotry lands him in the klarts.
If it is not "vicious" to write off a cultural group as "implanted" potential perverts then we have different understandings of the word.
If it is not "vicious" to propose arming the most oppressively vicious despot with the means of subduing his own people to continue his long-running dynistic dictatorship I am at a total loss to understand your interpretation of the word.
It is utterly stupid of him to openly lie about his own statements....
Where do you go from here
He has chosen this forum to peddle his hate - you have chosen to join him in his campaign.
You are two sides of the same coin - except he has the dubious qualification of determination while you dip in when you believe it is safe to do so and do a runner when you run out of invective.
Feel free to join in whenever you have something to contribute - otherwise butt out while you've only managed to smear yourself with some of is excrement.
The answer to ending this lies in his court - he appears to wish to continue it, driven on, no doubt by his 'last man standing' urge.
I'll be around while he and you use this forum as a cultural and race hate platform.
His choice and yours.
By the way I enjoyed your accusation of by being "an irrational cliché-parroting booby" nearly as much as I enjoyed your calling me a "Jackanapes" way back - gadzooks sir - 'loaded pistols at dawn' sorta stuff, doncha think?
Jim Carroll
Btw.
Don't suppose you'd like to comment on Keith's proposal to arm Assad with riot control equipment - or are you happy for your friend to stick his neck out on your behalf?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: bobad
Date: 25 Jan 14 - 10:06 AM

""The near-annihilation of the world's most ancient communities of Christians."

Yeah but Keith, whatabout the poor girls of Ireland who have been denied an abortion.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 25 Jan 14 - 07:15 PM

"West pointed out that these communities "were Christian when our ancestors were worshipping trees and stones." Now they are in danger of imminent extinction."

If West made that statement, he merely proved what a bloody ignorant fool he was.

The Egyptians, Greeks and Romans all had very well developed religious systems long before a few dozen Jews decided to follow a Jewish teacher who had some rather good ideas about how things ought to be done.

It wasn't until some 70 - 100 years after that Jewish teacher was executed as a dangerous subversive by the Roman authorities, that Christianity came into being.

Apart from a comparatively short period of resistance by the Romans, the history of Christianity has been one long catalogue of forcible suppression and destruction of other religions, culminating in the latter day internecine war between the various Christian sects.

All of which strongly weighs against current claims of being the most persecuted, unless of course one includes those internecine conflicts.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jan 14 - 03:40 AM

"Christianity has been one long catalogue of forcible suppression and destruction of other religions,"
Not just "other" religions - Christianity has a long, proud history of imprisoning, torturing and burning fellow-Christians for "kicking with the wrong foot".
This has continually fed internecine bloody warfare right up to the present day within the British Isles.
Any religion, by its very nature, brings with it the threat of persecution - to plead a 'special case' for any any single religion is to fuel the flames of religious persecution.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jan 14 - 04:45 AM

troubadour, I think West meant West, i.e. Europe.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 26 Jan 14 - 05:55 PM

I don't think that anyone is denying that the church has done wrong in its history, and may not be blameless now either, but in the current time , I would say that many ordinary believers in many places are being severely persecuted. there may be accounts of Christians persecuting others, but even dawkins has said that he preferred Christianity, lest something worse comes along, and that he don't know any Christian suicide bombers[ not exact quotes]

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Jan 14 - 06:00 PM

he don't know any Christian suicide bombers

Just give it time, Pete - give it time.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jan 14 - 02:15 AM

So Jim and Troubadour, you just don't care.
No compassion or pity for people in misery.

You cite History to absolve you from any such counter-revolutionary emotions.
These are among the poorest people in the world.
They have no knowledge of your History, never mind responsibility for it.

They are killed, tortured and driven from their homes, but it does not matter to you.
Nothing needs be done.
No sanctions or withholding aid to any regimes who refuse to protect their minorities.
This minority deserves its fate.
Freedom of belief?
Bourgeois bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jan 14 - 03:11 AM

"They are killed, tortured and driven from their homes, but it does not matter to you."
Piss off Keith
You have been given good advice by your Guru - I suggest you take it before you gig yourself in deeper.
Your behaviour on this thread has been a spectacular display of inhumanity and will serve as an example as such for many years to come.
Try and kick yourself of the obvious addiction of having the last word and let this disgusting thread die.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jan 14 - 03:41 AM

It is not "disgusting" to care about persecution, whoever the victim.
I am disgusted that you find it so in this case.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jan 14 - 04:27 AM

Andrew Bennet, Canada's Ambassador For Religious Freedom.
"We see that there has been an increasing targeting of Christians," said Andrew Bennett. "I think Christians throughout the Middle East are very concerned about the impact of various violent acts - either government-sponsored or sponsored by radicals - are having on their numbers, with Christians fleeing their historic countries where they've lived for the better part of 2,000 years."

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jan 14 - 04:30 AM

"It is not "disgusting" to care about persecution"
Far from caring, once again it has been necessary for members of this forum to stop you from using the fate of persecuted human beings to peddle your hatred of Muslims.
You are using the fate of persecuted Christians as a platform for your hatred, in exactly the same way as you used the murder of a soldier in London and the massacre of the people of Homs to show that all Muslims are "implanted" with something or other to make them crazed killers.
You have continued to advocate that Assad should be supplied with equipment to subdue his people and lock them away, and once again have dredged the internet until you found a tiny group on the other side of the world to (apparently) back up your argument for putting the Syrian people into the hands of a war criminal mass murderer and torturer.
The depth of your 'humanity' is such that you have sneered at and denied the persecution of by Christian churches on their own belivers and have fought tooth-and-nail to have it censored from this discussion.
You have denied the power that religion has over States by suggesting that "if we didn't like it we should move elsewhere" - or words to that effect.
You have put the fact that clerical rape victims and women who died because the religious influence over their state down to "fear of the priest" and claimed that no such influence exists, even though case after case has been put to you.
You have supported proven phony figures from an extremist site to back your hatred and have openly lied about your claimed verification of those phony figures (you ended up admitting you checked two, even though you claimed "many" and supported "all").
You denied the evidence that the first five cases on your extremist list had no verifiable connection with religious persecution, even though it was within your power to prove otherwise (you obviously checked them - who wouldn't - and found this to be the case, yet you still continued to deny the facts)
Your unbelievably hate-filled behaviour here as left us with enough evidence of your screaming psychotic hatred to keep us warm for several winters to come.
Please continue to supply it - "every little helps"
A word of comfort - your one success here is to have managed to drag someone I once believed to be a decent and intelligent human being down to your level - well done for that.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jan 14 - 04:48 AM

of your screaming psychotic hatred
peddle your hatred of Muslims.
your argument for putting the Syrian people into the hands of a war criminal mass murderer and torturer.
spectacular display of inhumanity
you use this forum as a cultural and race hate platform.
you are evil; no question

You are incapable of rationality about me Jim.
You are deranged.
You are obsessed.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jan 14 - 04:53 AM

You have supported proven phony figures from an extremist site to back your hatred and have openly lied about your claimed verification of those phony figures (you ended up admitting you checked two, even though you claimed "many" and supported "all").

I did check many, when it first appeared, but did not keep notes.
When you brought it up later I checked two more at random for you.

You denied the evidence that the first five cases on your extremist list had no verifiable connection with religious persecution, even though it was within your power to prove otherwise (you obviously checked them - who wouldn't - and found this to be the case, yet you still continued to deny the facts)

You have provided no evidence.
I do not believe that you found any fault, or you would have produced it.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jan 14 - 06:28 AM

Every display of "humanity"
you have ever shown on this forum has come with evidence of your own inhumanity
Religious persecution - you deny and attempt to stifle discussion on any form of persecution by Christians.
Your 'concern for the citizens of Homs came with a support for the sale of sniper rifle bullets, the support reiterated here) that Assad should be sold riot control gear, and the insistence that the west cannot and should not intervene in any way to stop Assad (including seizing his and his henchmen's property in the UK.
This was later followed up with the sale of chemicals capable of manufacturing weapons to Syria was "as harmless as selling toothpaste"
Your support for Israel is counter-balanced by your describing British anti-fascists as "harmless" when Jews were going into extermination ovens in their millions and the very nutters you were defending were passing out anti-Semitic tracts while at the same time attempting to put together an alternative British government should Hitler win (as they declared they hoped he would)
Homophobia - your insistence on being anti was offset by your suggestion that Britain could not afford to give immigrant Aids sufferers medical treatment.
As I said, their's a library of your humanitarian pearls of wisdom to choose from, should you continue to claim to having a streak of humanity in you.
Keep it coming
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jan 14 - 06:53 AM

None of that is true.
This is the most blatant lie, "your suggestion that Britain could not afford to give immigrant Aids sufferers medical treatment"
Completely made up.
I would never have suugested any such ridiculous thing.

This is what you do Jim.
Whenever you lose, you claim that ancient posts prove me evil, as if that turns the tables.

They do not, because I am not.
They just show that you can not support your views, and try to obfuscate instead.
Debate, don't demonize!

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jan 14 - 07:53 AM

One denial out of - how many?
Assume you accept the rest - should you wish to your comments on immigrants with aids are somewhere in the Mudcat vaults somewhere - find it yourself and then invent someone who "told me to say it - as you invariably do.
The rest - unchallenged stand as accepted.
You really aren't worth debating with, you lie, you distort, you blame your opinions on someone else, you invent "historians" to back your clams - most of all, you bring no knowledge or fresh information to he threads you dominate with your ignorance and drive into the ground
You stand totally alone other than the occasional hit-and-run you occasionally get from your Good Fairy (Boo-Boo must be a bit of a liability you have to mop up after).
All I am concerned with now is stopping your revolting slime output so the rest of us can get on with serious, compassionate discussion.
You are helping no end in this - many thanks
Carry on sliming
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jan 14 - 08:16 AM

They were all untrue, but that was a brand new one!
Completely false and made up.
Inventing historians?
Another brand new lie.

You are deranged.
Seriously.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jan 14 - 08:43 AM

Now why did I know you'd say that, even though you've reiterated some of them here on this forum for all to see - evidence of your idiocy.
Tell you what - I'll dig out your statement on Aids treatment when - and only when you present your findings on the lots of cases incuded on the extremist thread - can't say fairer than that!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jan 14 - 09:19 AM

There is no such post of mine you will ever dig out, because you just made it up.

Now, what " findings on the lots of cases incuded on the extremist thread "?
I have no idea what you mean, but I will help if I can.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jan 14 - 11:02 AM

I just worked it out Jim.
You were not referring to another thread, but to Bobad's list in this one.

I will gladly check a couple more entries.
It does not take long.
You can choose them if you like.
I take it you have still not managed to find a single false entry?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jan 14 - 11:22 AM

"but I will help if I can."
You're not "helping" me in any way - on the contrary - I've thrown you a lifeline to prove I'm a liar and you are not the evil monster everybody believes you to be.
Simple enough what I offered - show us the justification for your unqualified support for an extremist web- site remember, you claimed to have looked into "many" of them, and I'll show you your statement on medical treatment for aids sufferers - all I need to do is remember the thread it's on and search for "who is going to pay for it?" - your more-or-less exact words.   
Just to get you started, here is a link to Bobad's list, which you said you'd "no reason to doubt" and gave your unqualified support to - you said you'd checked "many of them already so you're off to a good start - so far you've come up with "I remember the church bombing - don't you?" - sum total.
19 Oct 13 - 09:53 AM
19 Oct 13 - 10:10 AM
19 Oct 13 - 10:20 AM
19 Oct 13 - 10:21 AM
19 Oct 13 - 10:23 AM
19 Oct 13 - 10:25 AM
It would be unreasonable for to to demand you prove all of them - two-thirds will do as I'm in a good mood.
To show there's no ill-will I'll dig out your defence of selling sniper bullets and chemicals to Assad, your describing British wartime fascists as being "harmless" as Jews were being exterminated in their millions.
No need to dig anything out on supplying Assad with equipment to suppress opposition and torture dissidents - we've established that you said that and have confirmed that this is still your belief
The historians whose words you've twisted to defend your World-War One jingoism case is still current and those that you used in defence of British genocidal behaviour during The Great Famine are easily got at.
I'm sure you don't want a list of "experts" who backed up your "Pakistani implant" argument - they must be burned into your brain (what there is of it) by now - and it will come up again, I'm sure.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jan 14 - 03:33 PM

There must be a thousand!
I have put up corroborating evidence for two items already.
I will do two more, and you can choose them.

How many have you found to be fake Jim?
Still none?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jan 14 - 04:05 PM

"How many have you found to be fake Jim?"
I have put the first five on the list up that have shown no conclusive evidence of religious persecution three now whatever, one admitted by the police to possible be simple robbery - one untraceable - how many have you put up - I count one which you claim to "remember"
Two out of a thousand - you must be ******* joking!!!!   
I've counted around half a dozen that could possibly religion instigated without bothering to trace them.
Nobody has ever claimed that there are no 'anti-Christian atrocities" - you have denied all forms of persecution by Christians, sneering at it, belittling it and denying it .
Now - when you produce two more you will only have only 800 odd more to make up your two thirds - don't forget - you claimed there was no doubt abot any of them.
Now go to it and stop wasting my time.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: bobad
Date: 27 Jan 14 - 05:46 PM

The Horrible state of Christians, Hindus & Zoroastrians in Islamic Pakistan. Disgraceful.

The Express Tribune

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 02:38 AM

A reminder.
Blue clickies in the original.

From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 03:37 AM

Jim, if neither of us, nor anyone else can find a false entry, it is probably mostly accurate.
Why did you claim to have found something?
I can remember many of the incidents, and I am sure you can too.

Picking at random one I cannot remember.
"1/28/2013         Turkey         Istanbul         1         0         An 85-year-old Christian woman is stabbed to death by an attacker who then carves a cross on her body."

It checks out.
http://www.economist.com/blogs/charlemagne/2013/01/turkeys-armenians
Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 03:57 AM

Another.
"2/18/2013         Somalia         Alanley         1         0         A 42-year-old Christian teacher and father of four is brutally executed by al-Shabaab outside his home."

http://morningstarnews.org/2013/02/christian-shot-dead-near-kismayo-somalia/

Your turn Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 02:43 AM

The list makes no claim about reigious persecution.
It is just a list of incidents involving the murder of Christians.
Have you found one single inaccurate entry?
Neither have I.

I will check a couple more if you like, and you can pick them for me.
Pick the most unlikely ones you can find.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 03:33 AM

"Jim, if neither of us, nor anyone else can find a false entry, it is probably mostly accurate."
You are again openly lying - I have stated several times that the firs five entries on the list are either unproven or totally false - you have only given that "you remember the attack on the church so far".
If this is how you are intending to embark on your mammoth quest of showing that two-thirds of the list are proven correct you may as well give up and take your ball home.
Stop wasting my time and go get your proof.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 03:44 AM

Jim, working full time, that would take weeks.
I have proved two and offered two more.
You claim that the first five are false?
Let's check the first two.

Date         Country         City/State         Killed         Injured         Description
9/22/2013         Pakistan         Peshawar         61         110         Two Shahid suicide bombers obliterate over sixty worshippers at a church service.
9/14/2013         Pakistan         Karachi         1         0         A Christian's throat is slit on the street after being branded an 'infidel' and blasphemer.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 03:51 AM

"Two suicide bombers blow themselves up as hundreds leave a church in Peshawar - in Pakistan's deadliest ever attack on Christians.
6:40pm UK, Sunday 22 September 2013"

http://news.sky.com/story/1144982/pakistan-suicide-bombing-at-peshawar-church

Item one confirmed exactly as presented.
I will look at number two later.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 05:51 AM

number 2
"After slicing throat of Boota Masih in front of shopkeepers and traders the killer Muhammad Arif waved his knife in air standing on dead body shouted slogans "Allah O Akber, Allah O Akber" "I have killed an infidel blasphemer" and walked away."
http://ahmadiyyatimes.blogspot.co.uk/2013/09/pakistan-christian-slaughtered-on.html

Your turn Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 06:23 AM

"Let's check the first two."
I gave you the ones I checked - top of Boo-Boo's first list
My findings on the first two were, as stated -
1   All information from this comes from extremist web-sites
2   Police blame either terrorists or criminal gangs - no arrests, no definite suspects
Rather than just lifting your claims from the titles given by the Islamic extremists, why not give us links to the events honest individual that you are!!

At this rate you should be finished by the anniversary of the end of Word War one.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 06:34 AM

Those are the first two entries on Bobad's first list, posted 19 Oct 13 - 09:53 AM

I have now shown that 4 entries are corroborated by news reports.
You have yet to produce anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 07:00 AM

No Keith - you have shown the first one to be correct - the second one as I said, was put dow as possibly being a robbery - o arrests no charges - the only other one was your "hving remembered" - now get on with it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 07:21 AM

Good job they don't allow guns on Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 07:44 AM

Justify your claim about murder 2.
Here are two more reports.
"Karachi: Pakistani Muslim man slits the throat of a Christian man in Karachi, 14 September, 2013
Shouting that he was killing "an infidel who blasphemed against Muhammad," a Muslim in Karachi slit a Christian man 's throat as police and others looked on, accused the slain man's son, George Masih. George Masih told the Morning Star News that his father, 58-year-old Boota Masih, had worked as a gold scavenger in Karachi's Liaquatabad Gold Market for 30 years, and that the Muslim who killed him also gathered gold dust from jewellers' rugs or work carpets at the market. Police informed the family that a Muslim, later identified as Muhammad Asif, had killed Boota Masih by slitting his throat with a dagger and then stabbing him multiple times. "We were told that Asif had kept shouting that my father was an infidel and had spoken derogatory words against Muhammad [Islam's prophet] as he mercilessly stabbed him. A large number of people, including four policemen and private security guards of the market, witnessed the entire scene, but no one tried to stop the killer, who walked away waving the dagger," Masih said. The family registered case No. 226/13 with the Liaquatabad Police Station, but the police were making little effort to arrest the murderer, complained the grief stricken son."
http://www.eopm.org/eopm_news2013.html


http://morningstarnews.org/2013/09/pakistani-muslim-cites-blasphemy-in-slaughter-of-christian-rival-in-business/

"
Karachi: September 17, 2013. (PCP) Boota Masih aged 50, working as Niyaria (Gold scrap collector from drain) at Liaquatabad Jewelers Market from last 40 years was brutally murdered by cutting his throat by a Muslim in broad daylight on September 14, 2013.

Boota Masih went to meet his friend in market where one Muslim named Muhammad Arif who also worked as Niyaria in same location kicked him on ground and attacked him with knife. Muhammad Arif after injuring Boota Masih with knife cut his throat with knife and killed him at spot.

After slicing throat of Boota Masih in front of shopkeepers and traders the killer Muhammad Arif waved his knife in air standing on dead body shouted slogans "Allah O Akber, Allah O Akber" "I have killed an infidel blasphemer" and walked away.

There were dozens of Muslims gathered on spot but no one stepped forward to stop killer and none tried to rescue Boota Masih."
http://www.pakistanchristianpost.com/headlinenewsd.php?hnewsid=4482

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 08:16 AM

This gets ridiculous
You have four pages of postings of claimed religious atrocities put up by Boo-Boo from an Islamophic extremist site to justify their being trustworthy - as you have claimed - as you point out, about a thousand cases which you have given your unqualified support to
There are bound to be genuine one among them just as there are bound to be many false claims -you are the only one denying religious persecution - by Christians
Give us your links when you have done them and let's see which of them is real, which one is invented, which one is untraceable and let's fight it out later
If you are going to quibble about each one as you go along we are both going to be dead and buried before you get half-way through the first one.
By the way - it's just been announced that the European Court has ruled that the State is responsible for sexual abuse carried out against her when she was 8.
Thought you might like to know that to help you on your way
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 08:29 AM

It is not true to say I gave "unqualified support."

What I actually said was "Jim, if neither of us, nor anyone else can find a false entry, it is probably mostly accurate."

All the entries I have checked have proved true.
I still have not found any false entries, AND NEITHER HAVE YOU!

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 08:35 AM

European Court has ruled that the State is responsible for sexual abuse carried out against her when she was 8.

I have no idea what this is about.
Does anyone know, or has Jim started raving?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: bobad
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 09:00 AM

"....has Jim started raving?"

Started?.....the little man is pathological, haven't you noticed?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 09:08 AM

"It is not true to say I gave "unqualified support."
Yes you dis - you said, and continue to say that there was no reason to disbelieve anything on the site and that you had examined many details and found them all to be true - that is unqualified support.
Stop wriggling - piss or get off the pot.
"Does anyone know, or has Jim started raving?"
The rape of children by Christians who have had them placed in their care.
The State disclaimed responsibility as the school was a privately run one - the European Court ruled otherwise, which has opened the floodgates to the State being held responsible for seeing justice being done in all cases of clerical rape and physical abuse in State institutions - ie - Christian Persecution
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 10:05 AM

Yes you dis - you said, and continue to say that there was no reason to disbelieve anything on the site and that you had examined many details and found them all to be true

I actually said that I was suspicious of it.
That is why I made my own checks.
My crime then, was to be honest about what I found.

What did you find Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 11:16 AM

"I actually said that I was suspicious of it."
What "you actually said" was that you had examined the thread, checked it extensively and could find nothing wrong with it - it turns out that you lied - you have not checked it and despite the fat that it comes from a blatantly racist site, you are still standing by it (and will continue to do so even if you ever get round to examining it closely, which you haven't so far).
If you have any intention of following up your support for this fascist site with real information from reliable sources - get on with it.
If you are just going to continue prevaricating, piss off and stop wasting both our times.
You appear to be having less support that you are having on WW1 site - at least there you have found support from one idiot - Colonel Blimp.
Get on with it and stop pissing about
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 11:55 AM

I did say I was "suspicious" of it.
Deny that Jim? I can soon find it.
That is why I carried out my on checks, checking a selection of items at random.
I was honest about my findings.
NOW, WHAT DID YOU FIND JIM????

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 12:02 PM

I knew bloody well that you had no intention of substantiating your blanket support for this shit-heap of a site "it doesn't matter who said it if it's true" - unquote.
Piss off and stop wasting my time you horrendous little shit
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 12:02 PM

I knew bloody well that you had no intention of substantiating your blanket support for this shit-heap of a site "it doesn't matter who said it if it's true" - unquote.
Piss off and stop wasting my time you horrendous little shit
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 12:12 PM

Jim, if neither of us, nor anyone else, can find a false entry, it is probably mostly accurate.

Have you found a single false entry yet?
Be honest please, and if you have tell me which so I can check it too.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: bobad
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 01:52 PM

Keith, you should know by now that when he starts with his name calling and attacking a site it's because he can't find fault with the information it presents - if he could he would be on it faster than a fly on shit and in big red letters too.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 02:51 PM

"it is probably mostly accurate"
Until you check how do you know, unless you automatically believe what is issued by fascist web-sites - which apparently is the case.
You claim to have checked less than a half dozen out of how many - a thousand, wasn't it.
Go away and don't come back till you've done lots and lots and lots more - and take Jimminy Cricket with you - it's him who dropped you into the klarts in the first place with his 'Bridgestone', 'White Supremist' and 'Muslim Watch sites -so watch your back.
Oh - and by the way, thank you a million times for confirming that you still accept the word of extremist sites without evidence, or even bothering to check - it all comes in handy for future use
"Every little helps"
Yi Ho Silveeer!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 08:33 PM

"Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jan 14 - 04:45 AM

troubadour, I think West meant West, i.e. Europe."

OH REALLY?

"Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jan 14 - 07:12 AM

-snip- Ed West, citing the French philosopher Regis Debray, distils the problem thusly: "The victims are 'too Christian' to excite the Left, and 'too foreign' to excite the Right."

Church leaders outside the Middle East are afraid to speak out, partly because they fear precipitating more violence. (Seven churches were fire-bombed in Iraq after Pope Benedict XVI quoted an ancient criticism of Islam in an academic speech in Germany.) Oddly, unlike Iran, Saudi Arabia, Israel, and Russia, the U.S. and the U.K. are the only powers acting in the Middle East that do not take any special interest in the safety of those with whom they have a historical religious affinity.

These are the lands in which Jesus' apostles and their disciples made some of the first Christian converts. In an interview, West pointed out that these communities "were Christian when our ancestors were worshipping trees and stones." Now they are in danger of imminent extinction." -snip-

You want to be respected as a purveyor of FACT, and you don't even bother to read the content of your own posts, FOOL?

First I ever heard about Europe being referred to as Ed West!

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 08:48 PM

"Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 02:43 AM

The list makes no claim about reigious persecution.
It is just a list of incidents involving the murder of Christians.
Have you found one single inaccurate entry?
Neither have I."

So it doesn't claim religious persecution, just victims of murder who happen to be Christians.

That is far from supporting your original claim of murder BECAUSE they were Christian, which you now seem to be denying.

Have you found any which DO support your original claim?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jan 14 - 01:00 AM

Troubadour, I was just checking the veracity of the list by sampling.
I made no interpretation, but on looking back I see that that is claimed by whoever prepared it.

I am sure West meant the West.
He is not a fool as you suggest, and it makes perfect sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jan 14 - 03:35 AM

"CHRISTIAN PERSECUTION? NO. ANNIHILATION!"http://www.wnd.com/2014/01/christian-persecution-no-annihilation/

Troubadour, you rubbished West and his work because of what you said was his error of History.
The error was yours.
He is a Westerner and he was addressing Westerners.
When he referred to "our ancestors" he clearly meant Westerners' ancestors, and that makes perfect sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jan 14 - 04:14 AM

"It is just a list of incidents involving the murder of Christians."
It is a list compiled and invented by a group dedicated to proving that Islam is an evil threat to the world and should be eliminated from the face of the earth- it's sole purpose is to espouse that cause and generate hatred towards all Muslims - go and read their "Religion of Peace?" statements.
Just as all your efforts on the "Muslim Persecution", "Homs Horror" and "Murdered Soldier" threads, it is a message of hate directed against all Muslims.
If this were not the case, compiling a list of a thousand crimes by Muslims against Christians would be as pointless as compiling lists of crimes committed by Christians, Jews, or any other belief against those of different faiths.
You have given your unqualified support to this list without a shred of evidence of its validity and without having made an effort to back up that support other than to grab hold a couple of the obvious ones to make your case - you are now refusing to make a further effort, yet you continue to support it.
I say that all groups such as Muslim Watch should be recognised as the hate mongering savages that they are and everything they claim should be treated with the deepest suspicion and rejected out-of-hand until it is proved beyond a shadow of doubt.
It should never be taken as serious argument, but as a means to further their ends of demonising all Muslims and their religion.
It is the job of this scum and their supporters (such as yourself) to prove that their claims are true, not for us who believe it to be racist shit to prove it is false - its very pedigree makes it nothing other than racist propaganda.
If you are not a member or supporter of Muslim Watch, can you explain why you are peddling their propaganda as fact without having examined it - why are you refusing to carry out any form of serious examination of a horrendous list of accusations of atrocities by Muslims against Christians?
Why are you now claiming that such a list, made up totally of claimed Muslim crimes against Christians is "not about religious persecution"?
Who sent you to this forum to persistently peddle race hatred, as you have done over the last few years.
Who is your employer - what organisation do you represent?
We really do need to know.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jan 14 - 04:39 AM

Summed up simply - as you appear to have difficulty with dealing with more than one sentence at a time.
How dare you present a claim of this size from an obvious racist Islamophobic site as true, or even probably true and demand that we disprove it?
Are all Islamophobic statements to be taken as fact until they are disproved?
What is your line on Islamophobia - for or against?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jan 14 - 04:46 AM

You repeat the lie that I gave "unqualified support."
I did no such thing.
I treated it with suspicion, taking NOTHING on trust.
I even checked the truth of some random, unlikely looking entries.

Your real objection is that I could find no false entries, and reported that honestly.
Sorry, but I do not lie Jim.

NOW TELL US HONESTLY HOW MANY UNTRUE ENTRIES YOU HAVE FOUND!
I have found none.
How about you Troubadour?
Anyone?

If none of us can find a single false entry, and only true ones, what does that suggest to you?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jan 14 - 07:02 AM

"You repeat the lie that I gave "unqualified support."
You have put it up as genuine and have said you have no reason to doubt any of it - that is unqualified support in anybody's book except your apparently
Why teh fuck should any of us run around chasing our tails disproving statements from this shower of scum, Nige Numbnuts Farage, Nick Griffin or any of the turdules whose views you appear to take as gospel - it comes from a corrupt source and can never be taken seriously until it is established as fact - the Nazi campaign to prove all Jews as being culturally and racially inferior and worthy of extermination should have told you that.
You believe this shit and want us to accept it - prove it.
I ask again - does this not come from an Islamophobic site - if it does, why should we bother our arses about it - on what grounds do you accept it without checking it - who do you work for?.
But once again - I can't thank you enough for constantly admitting that you are prepared to accept garbage such as this without even bothering to check - wonderful contribution to all these arguments.
As the song nearly said
"Stay as infallible as you are,
don't let a thing ever change you"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jan 14 - 08:11 AM

You have put it up as genuine

Also not true.
I just pointed out that none of us have been able to find any fault with it, and that is true.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jan 14 - 08:42 AM

YES YOU BLOODY WELL HAVE - IF YOU SAY YOU SEE NO REASON DO DOUBT ANY OF IT YOU IMPLY THAT IT IS ALL TRUE.
If you want us to believe any of it prove it is true otherwise admit you are prepared to accept and circulate garbage from racist sites without checking.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jan 14 - 08:42 AM

YES YOU BLOODY WELL HAVE - IF YOU SAY YOU SEE NO REASON DO DOUBT ANY OF IT YOU IMPLY THAT IT IS ALL TRUE.
If you want us to believe any of it prove it is true otherwise admit you are prepared to accept and circulate garbage from racist sites without checking.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jan 14 - 08:49 AM

That is not true either.
Your lies are becoming increasingly frantic and desperate.

I actually said, (17 Jan 14 - 03:37 AM )

Jim, if neither of us, nor anyone else can find a false entry, it is probably mostly accurate.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jan 14 - 03:02 AM

The Independent today.

"The war on Christianity: The religion's followers are dwindling in the land of its birth - and it's not a crisis of faith, but one of violence"

"What is beyond dispute, however, is that Christians are being deliberately killed in large numbers on account of their faith in the region where it first flourished"
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/the-war-on-christianity-the-religions-followers-are-dwindling-in-the-land-of-its-bir

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jan 14 - 03:06 AM

Link no good.
Paste in http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/the-war-on-christianity-the-religions-followers-are-dwindling-in-the-land-of-its-birth--and-its-not-a-crisis-of-faith-but-one-of-violence-9094363.html

Jim, here is a list of incidents provided on the same page.
Hardly a racist, hate site!

A sample of atrocities across these countries gives an idea of the rising tide of terror from which Christians are suffering:

µ In Egypt, many supporters of deposed President Morsi irrationally blamed Coptic Christians for his downfall, and took revenge on them. They seized control of the remote town of Delga, burning down three of the five churches there, and forced thousands of Christians to flee. They looted the 1,600-year-old monastery of the Virgin Mary and St Abraam and set fire to it. "They [the Copts] alone were set up as scapegoats and erroneously blamed for instigating the violent dispersal of pro-Morsi demonstrators," Bishop Angaelos, of the Coptic Orthodox Church in the UK, told a US Congressional hearing.

µ In Syria, as jihadists gained the upper hand over more moderate rebels, the village of Maaloula, where many still speak ancient Aramaic, the language of the Bible, was invaded by rebels who attacked churches, forcing many among the 3,000-strong population to flee. Elsewhere in the country, two archbishops were abducted by gunmen in April last year and have yet to reappear.

µ In Iraq on Christmas Day, 24 people were killed when a bomb exploded outside a church in Doura, southern Baghdad, as worshippers were leaving at the end of a service. Dozens more Christians were killed elsewhere in the country during the Christmas period. Prior to the Iraq war, there were 1.4 million Christians in the country, around 3 per cent of the population. Since then, the number has fallen to about 300,000. Raphael I Sako, the Chaldean Patriarch of Baghdad, said: "If emigration continues, God forbid, there will be no more Christians in the Middle East. [The Church] will be no more than a distant memory."

µ In Pakistan, 85 Christians were killed when two suicide bombers blew themselves up outside a historic church in the frontier city of Peshawar in September 2013. Standing in the church's courtyard and comforting the wounded, the Bishop Emeritus of Peshawar, Mano Rumalshah, commented afterwards: "It's not safe for Christians in this country. Everyone is ignoring the danger to Christians in Muslim-majority countries. The European countries don't give a damn about us."

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jan 14 - 04:40 AM

So you are now defending a racist hate site - wonderful - I couldn't have wished fro a better way to greet the day this morning.
It's hate site - don't cherry-pick bits and pieces as you always do read it's agenda - it's a fascist hate group - you moron.
But in the meantime please, please, please continue the line you have embarked on - not just supporting the filth put out by one of these hate groups, but by defending the groups themselves.
By the way - I am totally at a loss to understand the significance of your puttig up what you have - they are all part of an Islamophobic diatribe.
Even racists like yourself have paid lip-service "not all Muslms are effected by their Islamic implant - some resist" - or words to that effect - as genuine as your concern for the citizens of Homs who you advocated could reasonably be controlled by British supplied riot control gear
Today Muslim Watch - tomorrow the B.N.P - where next?
You appear to have completely flipped - you really have made my day
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jan 14 - 04:55 AM

So you are now defending a racist hate site

Of course I am not.
Just repeating the same old lie over and over does not make it true.

I do not defend any site.
I do not defend the list.
On the contrary, I treated it with suspicion, refused to accept anything except the several incidents that I remembered, and even went as far as carrying out my own checks on some unlikely ones.

What is your objection?
That I did not keep quiet that I could only find true incidents, as you did?

You all have attacked me for raising this issue as a concern.
The Guardian, The Independent and other reputable sources have done exactly the same.
Do you attack them too?
Why do you not care about the annihilation of a poor and vulnerable people?

You have plenty of compassion for Bedouin, Palestinians, clerical abuse victims, etc., but none for Christians whose sufferring exceeds all others.
Are you a bigot?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jan 14 - 06:22 AM

You are defending a racist site and lying about doing so in the space of two posting - some sort of a record, even for you.
"Hardly a racist, hate site!"
"Of course I am not."
Meanwhile - back on Planet Earth.
While I realise that persecution by Christians doesn't count on a thread entitled "Christian Persecution" to some people, this account of Christian persecution in the U.K. appeared in the Irish Times this morning
It is on the page following the one which reports that a Bishop in Northern Ireland had demanded that his name be removed from an enquiry into the behaviour on Brendan Smythe, the Church's worst child abuser.
The bishop has settled out-of-court for his part in covering up Smythe's crimes and allowing him to continue his abuse.
Thank you after all for keeping this dreadful thread open - lots more to come from the sound of things
Jim Carroll

PRIEST SAID ORPHANS IN DERRY HOME WERE 'THE PRODUCT OF AN EVIL RELATIONSHIP
Former resident was told to keep quiet about abuse allegations, inquiry hears
DAN KEENAN in Banbridge. Co Down

A priest told a former resident of a Derry residential home run by nuns that he must never re¬peat allegations of sex and other abuse.
A witness told the Historical Institutional Abuse Inquiry, which is investigating allegations of ill treatment of children at 13 care homes in Northern Ireland before 1995, the priest told him to stay silent about his claims concerning the home at Termonbacca in Derry, run by the Poor Sisters of Nazareth.
The witness, who cannot be identified, said he approached a priest later in life and told him of physical and sexual abuse he suffered.
He said the priest replied: "You must never speak about this. You and the other orphans are bastards, you are the product of an evil and Satanic relationship."
The witness said: "When a priest tells you that, that sums up how an orphan was perceived. What chance did I have?"

HOURS OF TESTIMONY
On the third day of oral hearings the inquiry heard hours of harrowing testimony from two former residents of the Termonbacca home who wished to tell their stories publicly.
The first witness, who said he was known at the home by his ID number, told of habitual beatings, of terror, loneliness and abuse. Telling the inquiry of his time at the home was "a day of freedom" he said, adding that through the inquiry he had met one of his brothers for the first time in decades.
"Looking into the eyes of my eldest brother - he threw his arms around me and we cried. They killed our family."
He said he had no idea his brothers were also at the same institution.
In later testimony, the witness confirmed that While still a young child at Termonbacca he deliberately wet the bed to pro¬tect himself from sexual abuse.
"What abuser would want to drop the hand on a child saturated in his own urine?" he said.
He referred to the institution being run by "the Taliban" such was the nuns' cruelty, but also insisted some individual nuns were very kind, as were civilian workers there.
The witness recalled that at night, a boy would start crying for his mother then another boy would also start.
"Within 60 seconds we were all crying for our mammies even though we didn't know what 'mammy' meant," he said.
Another witness cited rough treatment and fear of the Christian Brothers for deliberately failing an exam that would have got him into the grammar school. "I deliberately failed my 11-plus as I didn't want to go to the Christian Brothers," he said. "I didn't want to go there and 'get more'."

DECK SCRUBBER
Baths at Termonbacca were "horrendous" he added, saying children were dipped like sheep in a bath filled with Jeyes Fluid.
"We were scrubbed with a deck scrubber, believe it or not," he said.
Like other witnesses, he said Saturdays were spent polishing floors. The boys linked up and An image above a door at Nazareth House on Bishop Street, Derry, which was one of the homes run by the order.
polished as a team, citing a rhyme as they worked: "Rub her back, rub her back, before I put this broom across your back," he said.
Counsel Joseph Aiken later presented to the inquiry biographical details of three nuns who had worked at Termonbacca. Testimony from nuns who lived and worked in Derry is due to be heard later.
He referred the chairman to a nun's witness statement in which she talks of a happy time at the children's home. She had no recollection of physical abuse or punishment being administered.
Evidence continues today.

See; Eamonn McCann: Care 'homes' where church destroyed lives: Opinion, page

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jan 14 - 06:42 AM

"Hardly a racist, hate site!"
That was referring to The Independent, who also compiled a list.

I wish to withdraw a statement from my last post.
"You have plenty of compassion for Bedouin, Palestinians,....."

You have no compassion in you.
You shed cold crocodile tears for Bedouin Israelis, but nothing for the far worse plight of Bedouin in Egypt, who are marginalise, exiled to remote desert and denied basic employment and other rights and even citizenship.
Your "concern" is not for the Bedouin but against Israelis.

Likewise you have never expressed any concern for for the plight of Palestinian refugees incarcerated in camps with no rights for seventy years, but only for Palestinian Israelis with whom they would gladly change places.

No compassion, just a cold, hard political ideology.
If anyone like me points out flaws, in true Stalinist style you denounce me with a vicious campaign of lies and smears.

I have supported no site and did not accept the list.
I subjected it to checks against news reports.
You lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jan 14 - 07:33 AM

Give us your opinions on the site you are supporting then.
And you are once again ignoring a horrific case of abuse by a Christian church in the UK
And once again you are lying
I have always made quite clear, as has every single one of your opponents, that I neither defend nor condone religious, cultural or ethnic persecution by any religious or political group - "damn them all" remember.
You, on the other hand have used the abuse of Christians by Muslim extremists to attack "all Muslims" (that quote of yours again - told you it would come back to bite your bum - watch this space from now on)
The abuse, persecution and harassment of itinerants and Nomads is a fact of life throughout the world - especially in Britain and Ireland where I have described it as "ethnic cleansing" - I certainly do not condone it in Egypt, or anywhere else in the Muslim world -it is as I have described.
On the other hand, the fact that it is happening elsewhere is no excuse for it happening in either Britain or in Israel - both of which you have vigourously defended      
Your defence of moving Bedouins onto a toxic site to make room for Israeli settlers is an established part of Mudcat history.
As far as Britain is concerned, you deliberately opened a thread to prove that one of the most basic and well known form of persecution of Travellers in the UK and Ireland - the refusal of service to Travellers in pubs, didn't happen.
You rejected our thirty years of experience working with Travellers, a photograph Pat had taken, accounts of a court case -including a photograph. statements by reform groups like the Runnymede Trust, police reports - all an invention by me according to you.
Your sole argument - you hadn't seen a sign so they didn't exist.
Don't you ever accuse me of condoning the persecution of itinerants, or any other ethnic or racial group, you deplorable little toe-rag.
But please keep up your line of argument - it's now grown out of being referred to as "every little helps"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jan 14 - 07:45 AM

Your sole argument - you hadn't seen a sign so they didn't exist.
No.
You claimed they were "common throughout Britain."
I started a thread appealing to all Mudcat members for their experiences.
No one person reported seeing one in years.

My views on clerical abuse coincide with yours, but I will not discuss it on this thread.
There have been many threads already and you could always start a new one.
Why do you want to stop discussion of Christian persecution?
Because you are an uncaring bigot.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jan 14 - 09:47 AM

"My views on clerical abuse coincide with yours, but I will not discuss it on this thread."
You views do not coincide with mine or anybody else's in any way - you have told us that religious influence over the State not exist in Ireland or in any Christian Christian country and if we didn't like what happens we should piss off and go and live somewhere else.
This is emphasised by your attempts - to the extent of having to be threatened to be reported - of trying to stop all discussion on persecution by Christians
You are compounding that by refusing to discuss persecution by Christian Churches here
You have relegated the decades long rape of children and the ruining of their lives to not being as important as Muslim persecution (you haven't even referred to persecution by others, except to defend it (strenuously in the case if Israel) and you have plumbed the internet sewers to make your case.
You refuse to even comment on the Islamohobic site which you have given your unqualified support (suggesting that a thousand claimed incidents which you have not even examined are "probably right" - unqualified support in everybody's book apart from your twisted piece of porn apparently)      
You call me a bigot while digging yourself deeper and deeper into your own bigoted hole - keep digging
"No one person reported seeing one in years."
Except the Travellers we met at the time of the argument, the Runnymede Trust, the police, even a member of the British establishment, Sir Angus Fraser.

http://www.nls.uk/catalogues/online/cnmi/inventories/acc12091.pdf

but they, like your W.W.1. soldiers, were probably liars and the handful of Mudcatters who said they hadn't seen the signs (one had the good grace to admit that this was immaterial) proved that the signs didn't exist.
You retreated from the argument still calling me - and them liars.
You are a meglomanic nutter Keith
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jan 14 - 10:00 AM

Whoops - this one
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/0090599032000058875?journalCode=cnap20
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jan 14 - 10:24 AM

You refuse to even comment on the Islamohobic site which you have given your unqualified support
I know nothing about it Jim, and you repeat the blatant lie that I have supported any site.

and the handful of Mudcatters who said they hadn't seen the signs (one had the good grace to admit that this was immaterial) proved that the signs didn't exist.
No.
It proved beyond doubt that they were not "common throughout Britain.
The thread ran for 5 months and about 400 posts.

You retreated from the argument still calling me - and them liars.
No.
Here is my final contribution.
'NoTravellers'common UK sign?
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 11 Jan 13 - 07:02 AM

"your now totally scuppered case"

My case was that they are not common throughout Britain, and that is the case.
This thread is the evidence.
Everyone on this thread except you knows that they are not common throughout Britain.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jan 14 - 12:36 PM

"My case was that they are not common throughout Britain, and that is the case."
Thank you for confirming your total rejection of all the of researched evidence from all the experts and organisations I have named - saves me from having to dredge it up again.
"The thread ran for 5 months and about 400 posts."
As usual, around wo thirds of them posted by you.
I would guess aroung half a dozen members actually said they hadn't seen the signs - hardly confirmation of anything in the face of the mass of evidence you rejected out of hand because "I have ever seen them"
"I know nothing about it Jim, and you repeat the blatant lie that I have supported any site."
Then why do you support everything it has claimed without checking it out?
I checked out the site to find out what it was - I always do when you and Boo Boo produce evidence
You are perfectly free to do likewise and show us it is worthy of your undying devotion and trust
Keep it up Keith
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jan 14 - 03:08 PM

Not one Mudcat person had seen the signs.
There were about 40 named contributors plus some unnamed Guests.
That proves they are not "common throughout the country" as you claimed.
You were wrong and I was right as usual.

Then why do you support everything it has claimed without checking it out?
I checked out the list.
I am sure you did too.
Neither of us could find a false entry.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jan 14 - 06:36 AM

"Not one Mudcat person had seen the signs."
Er no - of those contributing to the thread, some said they hadn't, you were the only to deny their existence lying again.
A quick recap of your position and then I'll let you have your customary last word wouln't want to upset the feng shui of these threads that you insist on making your own.
You still believe that, in spite of all the statements made by those involved with Travellers, you know more than all of us/them rolled together (infallibility rules OK)
You still proclaim your disgusting suggestion that Assad should be supplied with equipment enabling him to disable his opponents, stick them in his torture chambers - then "disappear them" - 17,000 to date and counting.
You still believe "all male Pakistanis" implanted potential perverts.
You are prepared to support uncritically the claims of an extremist racist site (app 1,000) after only examining couple of them and refusingto look at the reast.
You still refuse to pay more than lip-service to long term and current persecution by the Christian Church. desperately trying to rule it "off side" on a thread entitled "Christian Persecution"
I'm sure I've missed plenty - but that'll do for now - and for future use.
Carry on - your last word is.....?
"All lies" - no doubt!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Jan 14 - 06:48 AM

Jim, I live in this country and have never seen such a sign.
They have been illegal for 48 years.
Not one of the 40+ contributors had seen one either.
That proves that they are not "common throughout Britain" as you claimed.

You were wrong and I was right as usual.

Now, the subject is religious persecution.
Please stop trying to change it.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Jan 14 - 06:54 AM

You are prepared to support uncritically the claims of an extremist racist site (app 1,000) after only examining couple of them and refusingto look at the reast.

I have examined several, and I have posted proof of four in this thread.
Two were chosen at random and two by yourself.
You have not told us how many you have checked, but neither of us, nor anyone else, has yet found a false entry.
I will check a couple more if you like, and you can choose them.
Choose a couple of really unlikely ones.

Do you have any comments on the list compiled by The Independent?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Stringsinger
Date: 31 Jan 14 - 05:54 PM

Simple problem: each religion thinks it's the only one with their god so the persecution of other outside religions is built in to their own. It's a primitive form of tribalism that takes its form in violence and warfare.

There will always be persecutions of every religion as long as their are those who cling to theirs at the expense of others.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Feb 14 - 01:29 AM

"Simple problem."
Simple question.
Do you believe in the right to freedom of belief?
Do you care that it is being denied to Christians in many lands?
Do you care that they are being persecuted to extinction by murder, torture, destruction of homes and churches, .........................

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Feb 14 - 04:46 AM

Quanta Ahmed, a female Muslim physicisan.
"Christian persecution in the Muslim World goes unremarked upon in the Muslim world. Yet Christian existence in the Middle East, the very region where Christianity first arrived to world, is today imperiled to a degree formerly unseen in its history.

The erosion of Christians in the Middle East and North Africa region daily escalates. Rabid political Islamism, which both calls for the elimination of Christians from formerly pluralistic societies and seeds a climate ripe for sectarian violence, drives the exodus of Christians from the region.

Visiting persecuted Christians in Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, it's the silence that strikes me most. British nurses hide crucifixes from view; Filipino nurses furtively read banned Christmas catalogues; Christian physicians whisper their weekend plans, referring to church services as "gatherings" at diplomatic compounds; Christian Pakistani matrons scheduling the nursing rota risk false accusations of blasphemy – charges which could result in death.

All these Christians, my colleagues and friends, live in dire peril for expressing their religious observation."

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Feb 14 - 07:59 AM

What Quanta Ahmed says makes her an Islamophobe Keith, dontcha see? And what about them poor Irish lasses denied an abortion....it's the same persecution. And what Islamophobic site did you get that from.....and blah, blah blah ad nauseam.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: bobad
Date: 01 Feb 14 - 08:03 AM

That was me making the perspicacious editorial comment above.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Feb 14 - 10:46 AM

"There were about 40 named contributors plus some unnamed Guests.
That proves they are not "common throughout the country" as you claimed.
You were wrong and I was right as usual."

40+ people from a population of 63 million?

Oh, well that proves it must be right.........NOT!

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Stringsinger
Date: 01 Feb 14 - 10:47 AM

"All these Christians, my colleagues and friends, live in dire peril for expressing their religious observation."

The same is true for Muslims living in the U.S. Even Sikhs are killed for expressing their religion and they aren't even Muslims but ignorantly mistaken for them.

Christians have a history of ramming their religion down the throats of others so any retaliation is simply "the chickens coming home to roost". I'm not saying that this is moral or right but a cause and effect engendered by religion. It's a case of "my god is bigger than your god."

Religious fanaticism, promoting wars, silencing others who don't believe they way they do, organizing shaming cults, promoting mythology, Muslim and Christian extremism are exactly the same thing, as Hindu and Muslim wars, Jewish and Muslim wars, Catholic and Jewish wars (historically), Catholic and Protestant wars, the list goes on and is accessible to all who care to see it.

The idea that Christians are somehow above atrocities delivered in their name is specious, silly, misleading, and are bullies on the school ground who when beaten by other bullies cry "uncle".

As long as religion prevails, we will see more of this whining, beating and violence.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 01 Feb 14 - 10:58 AM

"He is a Westerner and he was addressing Westerners.
When he referred to "our ancestors" he clearly meant Westerners' ancestors, and that makes perfect sense."

By the time Christianity reached England most of the ancestors to whom you refer were half Roman and others who came with the Romans. There were some Pagans, Celts etc, and there still are.

This hardly gels with the claim of Ed West, nor does it apply to the multiplicity of ancestors from other incursions.

His claim is pure blether, which is probably why you defend it so asiduously.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Feb 14 - 12:04 PM

Stringsinger.
Simple question.
Do you believe in the right to freedom of belief?
Do you care that it is being denied to Christians in many lands?
Do you care that they are being persecuted to extinction by murder, torture, destruction of homes and churches, .........................

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Feb 14 - 12:10 PM

Troubadour, Rome is in the West.
Anything else I can educate you about?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: bobad
Date: 01 Feb 14 - 12:12 PM

"The idea that Christians are somehow above atrocities delivered in their name is specious, silly, misleading, and are bullies on the school ground who when beaten by other bullies cry "uncle"."

I haven't seen anyone saying that here but thanks for the fine example of a "straw man" argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Feb 14 - 12:12 PM

And, the Celts were Pagans too.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Feb 14 - 03:46 AM

Stringsinger, are you ashamed to answer those simple questions?
Here they are again.
Do you believe in the right to freedom of belief?
Do you care that it is being denied to Christians in many lands?
Do you care that they are being persecuted to extinction by murder, torture, destruction of homes and churches, .........................

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Feb 14 - 09:24 AM

"Do you care that they are being persecuted to extinction by murder, torture, destruction of homes and churches"
About as uch as you care about Christians raping children and breaking up marriages... and all the other things indulged in by the Christian church apparently
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Feb 14 - 09:36 AM

I do care about clerical abuse, I think more than you.
I have expressed my abhorrence, and will join you again in condemning it unreservedly.
But not on this thread.

You clearly believe, wrongly, that I do not care.
By your last post then, you state that you do not care about this.

You have no compassion for Christians.
You hate them.
That is what really drives your ranting about clerical abuse, not any compassion for the victims.
Just cold, harsh ideology.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Feb 14 - 08:33 AM

You people must have hearts of stone.
These are the poorest and most vulnerable people in the world.
Such people who you would normally be vocal in support of, but because of their faith, their extermination leaves you unmoved.

You even try as hard as you can to prevent it being discussed, by constantly trying to change the subject.

Your ideology is devoid of normal human compassion.
And I am denounced, on trumped up charges, for daring to question Comrade Chairman Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Feb 14 - 06:52 AM

In an article written for L'Osservatore Romano newspaper on 10 January 2014, Baroness Warsi, Senior Minister of State at the Foreign Office and Minister for Faith, addressed the increased global threats to religious freedom. She described this as a "global crisis" and highlighted that "the UK government has elevated it to a key priority in our human rights work".
https://www.gov.uk/government/world-location-news/holy-see-christians-in-the-middle-east

Sayeed Warsi said Christians were often 'scapegoated' for events that take place thousands of miles away

Britain's most senior Muslim politician, Sayeeda Warsi, has warned that the persecution of Christians has become 'a global crisis'.

Minister for Faith Baroness Warsi described 'a rising tide' in attacks on Christians in the war-torn regions of Egypt, Iraq and Syria where they often become 'scapegoats' for events taking place thousands of miles away.

Warsi, a mother of five and the daughter of Pakistani immigrants, pointed out that Christian minorities are threatened by Muslim majorities in the very places that gave rise to Christianity.

In an open letter to L'Osservatore Romano, the official Vatican newspaper, she wrote: 'The bitterest irony of this persecution - ostracism, discrimination, abuse, forced conversion, torture and even murder - is that it is taking place in a region where Christianity has its roots.

'Sometimes these cases are examples of collective punishment: people lashing out at Christian minorities in response to events happening many miles away.


'Other times, a Christian is just a convenient 'other' - a scapegoat.'

'The threat to religious freedom, I believe, has become a global crisis.'

The number of Christians killed for their faith around the world doubled in 2013. The senior Tory said that majority Muslim communities have a duty to defend Christian minorities.

She said: 'History teaches us that we have only defeated intolerance and hatred when we have all come together, whatever the cause. The majority communities need to defend the minorities.'

The peer, who is also a Foreign and Commonwealth Office Minister of State, said that 'the government has elevated (religious discrimination against Christians and other minorities) to a key priority in the government's human rights work.'

An estimated 100 million Christians around the world suffered persecution for their faith in 2013.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Feb 14 - 01:21 PM

A Unite Nations report has just demanded that the worlds most powerful Christian Church stops protecting pedophile priests by moving them about the system and hiding their crimes
Christian persecution exposed internationally
The destroying of the lives of children is every bit as bad, if not worse than taking lives - especially when it is sanctioned by the church by indifference and inaction, and even collusion.
Hearts of stone my arseum - we couldn't egin to compete Keith, you've cornered the market on supporting depravity
http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/news/international/Scathing_U.N._report_demands_Vatican_act_against_child_sex_abuse.html?cid=3788911
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Feb 14 - 01:49 PM

The destroying of the lives of children is every bit as bad, if not worse than taking lives - especially when it is sanctioned by the church by indifference and inaction, and even collusion.

I agree Jim, but this is the wrong thread.
Why is it so important to you that discussion of religious persecution is forced off the forum?
Because you are a bigot who hates Christians?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Feb 14 - 02:56 PM

I point out the difference in your immense concern for supposedly persecuted Bedouin in Israel, who are flourishing and thriving, compared to your cold indifference to the appalling plight of these Christian people suffering persecution so severe they face annihilation.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Feb 14 - 03:05 PM

But it is not like he gives a shit about Arab children- Jim just does not like Israelis.


BEIRUT (AP) — Children in Syria have been tortured, maimed and sexually abused by President Bashar Assad's forces and recruited for combat by the rebels fighting to topple him during the country's nearly 3-year-old conflict, a new United Nations report said.

U.N. report details child abuses by Syria rebels, government troops Reuters
Russia says Syria to ship chemical arms as civilians flee bombs Reuters
Syrian govt, rebels face off _ briefly, silently Associated Press
Syrian govt: Opposition are traitors Associated Press
The report, which highlights the treatment of children in the conflict from the beginning of the uprising against Assad in March 2011 until Nov. 15, 2013, was released this week to the Security Council and was posted on the U.N. website Tuesday.

It cites U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon as saying that Syrian children have been subjected to "unspeakable suffering" during that time. Ban urged Syria's warring sides to "take, without delay, all measures to protect and uphold the rights of all children in Syria."

The uprising against Assad's rule began with largely peaceful protests in 2011 but evolved in time into a bloody civil war that has killed more than 130,000 people, according to activists. Millions of Syrians have been driven from their homes, seeking shelter in neighboring countries or in safer parts of their homeland.

The conflict has hit the country's children hard.

http://news.yahoo.com/un-report-details-impact-war-syrian-children-124314025.html

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Feb 14 - 03:33 PM

"But it is not like he gives a shit about Arab children- Jim just does not like Israelis."
Ah - a blast from the past someone who blames Jews for Israel's crimes against humanity - and there's me thinking we only had one anti-Semite on this thread - Keith!!
"Christian people suffering persecution so severe they face annihilation."
They do not face annihilation - they are as subject to religious persecution as are their own victims now and throughout history.
When will you cop on Keith - your appallingly bad display of crocodile tears has fooled nobody.
You don't give a shit about Christians - or any religion being persecuted - you wouldn't have told the Christian victims of persecution by Christians to piss off and live somewhere else if they donlt like it if you gave a fiddlers fart.
You wouldn't have refused to participate in or even tied to suppress discussion of the causes of religious if ur worried you one iota.
You wouldn't refuse to discuss child rape by Christian clerics if persecution of Christians caused you to lose a wink of sleep.
You have never once paid anything more than mealy-mouthed lip service clerical rape and you have never once condemned the Christian church for allowing it to happen or for their covering up for the culprits and suppressing evidence of their crimes - not once, not one single murmer of condemnation over all the time the subject has been raised.
On the contrary - you have persistently defended persecution by the Christian Church by denying it happens.
You are, of course, free to prove me wrong on this by producing examples of your condemnation - but you won't because there aren't any.
You are using the genuine persecution of Christians by fanatics to persecute others being far more persecuted - and over a far longer period.
You yourself have actively indulged in the persecution of Muslims by branding all of them implanted perverts
I suggest you take your horrendous bigotry somewhere else and stick it as far as it can go
"All lies" of course - goes without saying - but of course that won't stop you from doing so anyway.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Feb 14 - 03:38 PM

I admit I was wrong- Jim does not hate Israeli Arabs, Israeli Christians, Israeli Druze, or any other Israelis EXCEPT for Israeli Jews…



100 million Christians persecuted- he doesn't think this worth commenting on.

130,000 Syrians killed- No reason to complain there.

40,000 Bedouins moved into standardized housing from condemned housing- THAT is enough to demand the removal of Israel from the map!

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Feb 14 - 04:49 PM

Yup - still skulking behind six million murdered to defend Israeli atrocities
Haven't seen your face on this thread much Brucie
We've condemned all religious persecution - Keithie had defended atrocities by Christians and won't let us talk about anything but those committed by Muslim nutters
Funny old world you bigots occupy   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Feb 14 - 04:57 PM

I certainly have deplored clerical abuse and do so again now.
I expressed "abhorrence" just 2 days ago right here.

They do not face annihilation - they are as subject to religious persecution as are their own victims now and throughout history.

These poor and vulnerable people have no victims.
"Anniliation" was the description in the WND headline I put up last week.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Feb 14 - 05:26 PM

Haven't seen your face on this thread much Brucie

Baruch Hashem!

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 05 Feb 14 - 06:47 PM

"Troubadour, Rome is in the West.
Anything else I can educate you about?"

I didn't realise you had moved Turkey to the West, you clever lad. Constantinople wasn't it, when Christianity really took a hold.

Prior to that Christians were largely regarded as lion food.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Feb 14 - 06:56 PM

"It cites U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon as saying that Syrian children have been subjected to "unspeakable suffering" during that time. Ban urged Syria's warring sides to "take, without delay, all measures to protect and uphold the rights of all children in Syria."

The uprising against Assad's rule began with largely peaceful protests in 2011 but evolved in time into a bloody civil war that has killed more than 130,000 people, according to activists. Millions of Syrians have been driven from their homes, seeking shelter in neighboring countries or in safer parts of their homeland."

Thank you BB for making our point.

People (especially minorities) are being persecuted all over the world, but KA of H only wants to talk about those who are Christian, and then accuses everyone else of being heartless.

He doesn't give a damn about those Syrian children, nor does he care about any others in that conflict, unless they are Christian.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Feb 14 - 01:06 AM

Not true guest.
I even started a thread about the horror of Syria, and I was the first and almost the only one to do so.
I have also said here, repeatedly, that I would welcome discussion about any religious persecution.
The links I have put up all say that Christians are suffering far more than any other group.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Feb 14 - 03:10 AM

Troubadour, you posted this.
""West pointed out that these communities "were Christian when our ancestors were worshipping trees and stones." Now they are in danger of imminent extinction."
If West made that statement, he merely proved what a bloody ignorant fool he was."

Our Anglo-Saxon and Celtic ancestors were indeed doing that when those communities were established, so West was right and you were wrong to rubbish his whole thesis because of an ignorance of History that was YOURS not his!


Let me (and wiki) educate you again.

Anglo-Saxon paganism refers to the religious beliefs and practices followed by the Anglo-Saxons between the fifth and eighth centuries AD, during the initial period of Early Medieval England. A variant of the Germanic paganism found across much of north-western Europe, it encompassed a heterogeneous variety of disparate beliefs and cultic practices.
The pagan Anglo-Saxons worshipped at a variety of different sites across their landscape, some of which were apparently specially built temples and others that were natural geographical features such as sacred trees, hilltops or wells.

Germanic paganism refers to the theology and religious practices of the Germanic peoples from the Iron Age until their Christianization during the Medieval period.
there is evidence from later continental Europe, Anglo-Saxon England and Scandinavia that the pagans worshipped out of doors at "trees, groves, wells, stones, fences and cairns.

The Celts venerated certain trees. The Celts were animists, believing that all aspects of the natural world contained spirits, and that communication was possible with these spirits.[24]
These animistic deities were often worshiped, so places such as rocks, streams, mountains, and trees may all have had shrines or offerings devoted to a deity residing there.

Early Christianity spread from city to city in the Hellenized Roman Empire and beyond into East Africa and South Asia. Apostles traveled extensively, establishing communities in major cities and regions throughout the Empire. The original church communities were founded by apostles (see Apostolic see) and numerous other Christians soldiers, merchants, and preachers[43] in northern Africa, Asia Minor, Armenia, Arabia, Greece, and other places.[44][45][46] Over 40 were established by the year 100,[44][46] many in Asia Minor, such as the seven churches of Asia. By the end of the 1st century, Christianity had already spread to Greece and Italy, some say as far as India, serving as foundations for the expansive spread of Christianity throughout the world.

The Roman Empire began to disintegrate in the late 4th and early 5th century as invasions overwhelmed the capacity of the Empire to govern and mount a coordinated defense. Most chronologies place the end of the Western Roman empire in 476.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Feb 14 - 03:31 AM

"I certainly have deplored clerical abuse and do so again now."
No you haven't, and you aren't now - you are paying mealy-mouthed lip-service as have always done - sort of like saying that the only crime Israel ever committed is to knock over olive trees.
As I said, you are perfectly able to put up evidence that what I have said is untrue - you won't, because it doesn't exist.
And please stop your deluge of crocodile tears - Britain is having enough trouble with flooding as it is.
You have never displayed a streak of humanity in any of your postings - the only feelings you appear to have is the obsessive hatred of Muslims and your undying love for the establishment.
Now - tell us again about governments having the right to destroy communities and cultures and move people to wherever they choose in or order to make room for the real Israelis - it turns me on every time you say it!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Feb 14 - 04:26 AM

As I said, you are perfectly able to put up evidence that what I have said is untrue - you won't, because it doesn't exist

I did, and you rejected it as "mealy-mouthed lip-service" !!

the only feelings you appear to have is the obsessive hatred of Muslims
That is an evil, wicked lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Feb 14 - 05:52 AM

"I did, and you rejected it as "mealy-mouthed lip-service" !!"
It wasn't condemnation - it was what mealy-mouthed lip service I said just as above
To declare abhorrence of abuse that has been going on probably for at least a century it is not to condemn it - that's exactly what the church hierarchy have done - they helped to cover it up and some of them even participated in it - now they "abhor" it and have said so publicly (not their own part in it, mind) - that is being mealy-mouthed
You have not only refused to participate in discussion of clerical abuse and its causes, you have denied its significance 'they can always piss off and live somewhere else', and you have done your level best to see it is not discussed on a thread entitles "Christian persecution" - you have demanded to be allowed to present Christians as victims and attempted to hide their own persecution of both their own and other religions.
You've once again attempted to make this another of your Muslim-hate threads - not this ****** time boyo.
You mention your starting your Homs thread - you wept and wailed (as you do) over the fate of the citizens of Homs, defend Assad being sold the sniper bullets that were use to train the snipers and crown it by proposing he be sold riot equipment to subdue opposition, being fully aware that his opponents (an estimated 17,000 of them) have 'disappeared from his prisons and torture chambers and god knows how many are still in there receiving the treatment.
You then went from glory to glory by defending Britain's sale of chemicals to Assad which could have been used to amass the massive arsenal of weapons the world is now being asked to foot the bill for to help him get rid of them
You are one sick chick, you really are - luckily you are not bright eough to cover up that fact
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Feb 14 - 06:27 AM

"Abhorrence" is extreme condemnation Jim.

You have not only refused to participate in discussion of clerical abuse and its causes, you have denied its significance

Completely untrue.
I only refused to participate on this, the one and only thread about religious persecution.
You only want to turn this into another clerical abuse thread because you do not want persecution discussed.

you wept and wailed (as you do) over the fate of the citizens of Homs,

True. Sorry. It is compassion. You would not understand.

defend Assad being sold the sniper bullets

Not true.
I was against the arming of Assad, the overwhelming majority of which came from your old mates Russia, China and Iran so you had to make an issue out of the non-issue of Britain.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Feb 14 - 04:04 AM

I will not post any more reports to show that the subject of this thread is a real issue and that caring about it does not make me a bigot, racist etc.
Last one.

"WASHINGTON, Feb. 11, 2014 /Standard Newswire/ -- The largely underreported assaults on the religious freedoms of Christians around the globe were the topic of a congressional hearing Tuesday chaired by U.S. Rep. Chris Smith (NJ-04), Chairman of the House congressional panel that oversees global human rights issues.

"This subcommittee has and will continue to highlight the suffering of religious minorities around the globe, be they Ahmadi Muslims in Pakistan, Ba'hai in Iran, Buddhists in occupied Tibet, Yazidis in Iraq or the Muslim Royhinga people in Burma," Smith said. "Christians, however, remain the most persecuted religious group the world over, and thus deserve the special attention that today's hearing will give them. As one of today's witnesses, the distinguished journalist John Allen has written: 'Christians today indisputably are the most persecuted religious body on the planet, and too often their martyrs suffer in silence.'"
http://www.standardnewswire.com/news/621089002.html

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket once more into the britches
Date: 13 Feb 14 - 06:19 AM

Christian persecution.

A rather harrowing account of it in the papers at present.

People calling themselves Christians murdering and raping Muslim communities in CAR.

There again Keith can't find accounts of things happening in Africa.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Feb 14 - 06:48 AM

I am well aware of it and it is monstrous.
We have discussed here what led to it.
They had coexisted peacefully for decades.

I could not find the atrocity in Nigeria that you posted about because it never happened.
You made it up, which was a very sick thing to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 13 Feb 14 - 12:26 PM

Wow.

So.. None of the ones you lick your bloody chops over peacefully existed before?

So.. If I or anyone else repeats something we read or hear on the news, we are doing sick things if you don't know about it?

Have you tried seeing a doctor? Psychiatric referrals aren't that difficult you know. Although, only ask if you are genuine. Don't bother if you are just a nasty person who loves smearing others. There is no hope for those people. They usually find comfort by joining far right groups instead.

Prat.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Feb 14 - 12:39 PM

Musket, I fully accept that in CAR now there is persecution of Muslims by Christians.
I always acknowledged that Christians were capable of it, it is just that this is the first current example that has emerged.
It follows massacres of Christians there where previously there had been peaceful coexistence.

You did not hear that made up atrocity on BBC radio as you claimed.
Others, including me, would have heard and remembered it.
The report would still be on the BBC news site, and others would have picked it up.

It is not reported by any news agency.
It never happened.
A sick lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 04:05 AM

I said I would not do it again, but this changed my mind.
It is as horrific as the massacre made up by Musket, but it is sadly all too true.

Former Prime Minister Gordon Brown yesterday,

"When courageous Malala Yousafzai was shot, 5 million men, women and children signed petitions calling for every girl in Pakistan to have the chance to go school.

But this week the world remained silent when 40 schoolchildren were shot and then burnt to death in a school in north east Nigeria. The incident was nothing less than a massacre of the innocents.

This latest attack, perpetrated by Boko Haram, brings the number of people murdered in the last month by the terrorist group to 300. Many were children targeted simply for going to school.

President Jonathan called the attack "a callous and senseless murder by deranged terrorists and fanatics who have clearly lost all human morality and descended to bestiality." US Secretary of State John Kerry has condemned "unspeakable acts of terror." Malala herself has spoken out for Nigerian children murdered when they are at school.

But so far there has been scant global reaction."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/gordon-brown/a-senseless-massacre-of-i_b_4866860.html

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 04:19 AM

A list of massacres in Nigeria.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_Nigeria

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 06:55 PM

dangerous to attend church, dangerous to attend school. it is hard to see what bakas hopes for. I suppose a fearful, impoverished country that they can control.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Apr 15 - 04:07 AM

Anti-Christian bigots may use offensive posts to get this thread closed.
Please delete the posts instead.

This year is the centenary of the genocide of Armenians, a Christian minority in Turkey.
It started in April.

The head of the Anglican Church will today decry the persecution and murder of Christians now.

On Friday, the Vatican spoke,

BBC,

Pope Francis has condemned the "complicit silence" about the killing of Christians during a Good Friday service in Rome.

Among the cross bearers were Syrian and Iraqi refugees, and Nigerians who had escaped Boko Haram persecution.

The service came a day after almost 150 people were killed in an al-Shabab attack on a Kenyan university.
"We still see today our persecuted brothers, decapitated and crucified for their faith in you [Jesus], before our eyes and often with our complicit silence," Pope Francis said, presiding over the ceremony at the Colosseum.

In St Peter's Basilica, the Pope prayed prostrated on the floor
Earlier, he condemned the attack in Kenya, where Christians were singled out and shot, as an act of "senseless brutality".
In another Good Friday ceremony, Pope Francis listened as the Vatican's official preacher Raniero Cantalamessa denounced the "disturbing indifference of world institutions in the face of all this killing of Christians".
He too mentioned the Kenya attack, as well as the beheading of 22 Egyptian Coptic Christians by Islamic State (IS) militants in Libya in February.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 05 Apr 15 - 04:35 AM

What an extraordinary way of starting a post? Who are these bigots Keith? Any chance of providing a link to where they post? Religious bigotry is usually by religious bigots if memory serves me well.

On the subject of church leaders cashing in on terror to make them look important, I notice the following;

Religious leaders inspire terrorists to do their wicked deeds by saying they will be martyrs. Interestingly, both the Pope and the Archbishop of Canterbury are calling the victims of religious terrorists martyrs, which is no better than the other religious leaders inspiring terrorists.

Nobody died for their religion in any of the recent attacks. They died for the religion of the criminals who killed them. To call them Christian martyrs is as obscene as using their relatives and friends grief as an advert for silencing critics, or persecution as they wrongly and disturbingly call comment from rational people.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Apr 15 - 05:44 AM

"the Pope and the Archbishop of Canterbury are calling the victims of religious terrorists martyrs, which is no better than the other religious leaders inspiring terrorists."
.,,.

To reply in moderate terms, this is a matter of opinion, & I consider your opinion here entirely mistaken, Musket. It is, for a start, self-evidently hyperbolical and overstated; and also inaccurate: in several instances, as I read it, each member of a group was asked to identify his religion: those replying Muslim were left alone, but the Christians affirmed that that was what they were, despite it being obvious that the stinking mob asking the question was going to kill them for their answer. Is that not martyrdom in your book? If not, how would you define it?

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 05 Apr 15 - 06:03 AM

For starters you are referring to one or two of the atrocities mentioned by church leaders. Bombs don't discriminate and neither do most of the gunmen.. For a second, I very much doubt that anybody felt their answer was going to make them a martyr, (get nurse to read the definition of martyr to you) and thirdly, for irresponsible church leaders to call them martyrs makes perverse sense to the terrorists and from their warped perspective, justifies and exacerbates their idea of a holy war, or jihad as it is referred.

As I said, nobody died for their beliefs, they died for the belief of the blokes with the guns.

Meanwhile, it is being hijacked as we type by churches using it as an excuse to say that criticising the church is persecution.

Pathetic, abhorrent and disgusting.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 15 - 06:32 AM

"Anti-Christian bigots may use offensive posts to get this thread closed."
I hope this stateent puts the kiss of death on this thread
This sort of antagonism is obviously designed to provoke a hostile response
Can the forum fairies please put a stop to this troll
Happy Easter all!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Apr 15 - 08:20 AM

The "nurse" joke might have subsumed a certain wit once, but has IMO got somewhat tedious.

You gain another credit towards your degree in the Miss·The·Point Tripos,, Whichever·Popgun·Is·On·Today.

Happy Easter

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 05 Apr 15 - 08:59 AM

I doubt I did miss any point.

Condemning violence is commendable and expected. After all, Church leaders impress lots of people, but the inference that it is holy death is just plain sick. It is a being in the wrong place at the wrong time death. The religion of the murderer is the factor, not the religion of the victim.

There is a huge difference between persecuting someone for what they are and persecuting them for what they aren't.

Those people died for not being Muslims. The Anglican church persecuted gays for being gay. An assertive versus passive argument.

When the shopping mall murders took place, people were asked if they were Muslim and tested in their knowledge. Welby piped up that some of the dead were killed for being Christian when even he had to later admit that they were killed for not being Muslim. A huge difference..

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Apr 15 - 09:22 AM

Christians are being hunted to extinction in the Middle East.

It will be of little comfort to them as they watch their loved ones killed and wait for their death that they are being killed for not being Muslim, and not because they are Christians.

They die for their faith.
By definition they are martyrs.
Sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 15 - 09:22 AM

This thread was started and now reopened by somebody who told us that those living under persecution BY the Christian church was free to go and live else where.
Says everything that needs to be said, as far as I'm concerned.
All this religious fundamentalism, whatever particular denomination, is a threat to anybody it effects.
Too much communion wine parhaps?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,#
Date: 05 Apr 15 - 10:23 AM

"Christian Persecution"

I am not in favour of it!

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Apr 15 - 10:43 AM

So, at the last it has come to this.


"Those people died for not being Muslims. The Anglican church persecuted gays for being gay".........a disgusting attempt to equate the brutal murder of Christians for not being Muslim and opposition to marriage rights for a tiny sexual minority.

"liberalism in a nutshell"    This is what is behind all the opposition to Christianity on this forum.
I'm an atheist, but many of my friends and neighbours are Christians as far as I know they are all good a decent people, they do no harm to themselves or others, their beliefs are no business of any other.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 05 Apr 15 - 10:44 AM

Neither am I. Although two things to bear in mind.

There is a lot of persecution of people who aren't the flavour of Islam the murderers tend to be. This is seen as persecuting people for being Christians, where it is for not being Muslim.

There is a lot of resentment and hatred towards the West by those pissed off with historical imperialism and latter day being fucked over. It morphs as comparing religions. The West is wrongly seen as Christian whereas it is secular other than the likes of Cameron trying to get the God vote. He obviously doesn't notice the polls his sort usually worship.

So much for Keith's assertion

They did not die for their faith. If thinking so gives you a warm fuzzy feeling when in your pew, your empathy is misplaced. They died for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. It isn't their faith but the perceived link between their faith and the West that terrorists are exploiting.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,#
Date: 05 Apr 15 - 10:54 AM

"It isn't their faith but the perceived link between their faith and the West that terrorists are exploiting."

Bingo.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 15 - 11:13 AM

"The Anglican church persecuted gays for being gay"
The Christian church stood by for decades, probably centuries, while their clergymen raped children - when that abuse became public knowledge, they moved the offending persecutor to places where they could persecute without hindrance.
The hierarchy of the church in question still refuse access to the documented information regarding that persecution.
"Christian" extremists, egged on by fanatical clergymen, encouraged inter-religious fighting which led to the deaths of many thousands of people in Northern Ireland.
No religion is any more trustworthy than another when it comes to religious persecution.
Do not trivialise the result of religious persecution by one sect in order to excuse that of another.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 05 Apr 15 - 11:15 AM

I'm surprised you aren't religious Akenaton. You are certainly stupid enough and bigoted enough, judging by your post above.

I was talking of Christian lobbying in Uganda, USA, Russia etc, and even here, to make being gay an offence. The church funded lobby in Uganda even wanted to make it a capital offence. Pastors, priests and Imans line up to persecute gay people, to the point of killing them in countries where superstition reins supreme.

Nobody gives a flying Fuck about your weird irrational views on who has the right to be married and who isn't. In your neck of the woods, SNP fought hard for equality in marriage and their voters are proud of their resolve. Everybody has the right, except Church of England vicars, who are being persecuted by a law pushed by their own church.

Complicated thing this persecution lark. Good job the vast majority are irreligious in The UK although as you clearly demonstrate, religions don't have the monopoly on hating others do they?

Anyone got a bucket?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Apr 15 - 11:24 AM

Oh I know very well the twisted point you were trying to make Musket 1,2, or 3.

I need no excuses from you.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 15 - 12:27 PM

"I need no excuses from you."
It would be interesting to get a response on persecution by the Christian Church of other religions - don't suppose there's one forthcoming though
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 05 Apr 15 - 12:33 PM

My irrational stalker gets more weird by the post. Keep this up and I will be able to stab a good guess at when he forgets to take his medication.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Apr 15 - 12:43 PM

Can we move the discussion along for a change of pace to the "War On Christmas" or any of the numerous other fundagelical "Christian"[sic] idiocies?

How about The Rupture? 'scuse me - Rapture.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Apr 15 - 01:08 PM

Jim, the Pope did pray for persecution victims other than Christians, but please allow Christians to speak out against the many massacres of their fellow Christians.

Why does any mention of those massacres make you people so angry?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Apr 15 - 01:08 PM

Christians are being hunted to extinction

And long overdue, too, Keith - the chickens coming home to roost - if only in just retribution for the untold millions that "Christians"[sic] have exterminated over the last 2000+ years in the name of their faith.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Apr 15 - 01:35 PM

Greg, last time you made a comment like that and were challenged on it, you said you did not mean it.

Christians are being hunted to extinction
And long overdue, too, Keith

Please Greg, so we know where you are coming from, please tell us if you are just joking with us or if you really mean that.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,#
Date: 05 Apr 15 - 01:36 PM

Fact is that Muslims are no better than Christians in the massacre department.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 15 - 01:36 PM

"Jim, the Pope did pray for persecution victims"
Which Pope in particular - up to the present one, they supported the persecution with their silence and their manipulation
A bit late now, doncha think (and still no access to the archives or reparation in full for the Magdalene!!)
"please allow Christians to speak out against the many massacres of their fellow Christians." Nobody is stopping them - just pointoing out tat they have all been at it at one time or another - ask the Muslim victims of Christian persecution in former Yugoslavia.
"Why does any mention of those massacres make you people so angry?"
It doesn't - using them to continue sectarian warfare is what does the trick
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Apr 15 - 01:41 PM

ask the Muslim victims of Christian persecution in former Yugoslavia

It was Western forces, including the British Army, who put a stop to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Apr 15 - 01:41 PM

Are you disputing the fact that "Chrstians"[sic] have exterminated untold millions in the name of their faith, Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Apr 15 - 01:47 PM

Greg, yes.
I have answered your question, so please answer mine.


Jim,

Subject: BS: British Army at it again
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 01 Mar 07 - 06:00 AM

Hundreds of British troops have had to be sent home from Bosnia.
They and other EU forces are no longer needed to keep the peace and rebuild.
The Muslim people NATO moved in to protect are now secure.
And not a drop of oil in the place.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 15 - 02:09 PM

"Hundreds of British troops have had to be sent home from Bosnia."
Where does this condemn the fact that the Massacres by Christians massacring Muslims?
All religious persecution is evil ignoring, excusing or even supporting any form of religious persecution while making a special case for another is equally evil
Let's here it for religious persecution of any kind instead of when the biter gets bitten
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Apr 15 - 02:29 PM

Jim, we did not just condemn it, we acted to stop it by putting our own people in harms way.

Musket,
As I said, nobody died for their beliefs, they died for the belief of the blokes with the guns.
They died for the religion of the criminals who killed them.

After Charlie Hebdo, you said that the killers' religion was not relevant.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 05 Apr 15 - 03:12 PM

If your hobby is so clever,why feel the need to misquote?

Face it. Nobody died because they are Christians, they died because they aren't Muslim.

Your "we are in it together" martyr syndrome just allows you to perpetuate the hate these criminals feel and turn it into some Armageddon fallacy.

Fight the good fight. Onward Christian soldiers. The inane smile isn't so obvious when you come across real believers is it?

You may as well shout that some had the same hairstyle as you. It is sickening that Christians are putting up the myth that their hobby is under threat. They killed normal people too you prat.

It isn't Islam that is perverted, it is religion. The sooner the idiots in government realise they are a minority and can be disenfranchised without losing too many votes, the better.

Religion is a force for bad shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 15 - 03:21 PM

"Jim, we did not just condemn it, we acted to stop it"
Yiu are deliberately avoiding the point
By "we" I assume you don't mean Christians - not interested what the British Government does - she only obeys her masters voice.
Th massacres in former Yugoslavia were carried out by Christians slaughtering Muslims - doesn't come any more complicated than that.
Lets see if we can't clear a few things up.
All sectarian persecution is evil no matter who does what to whom
A bunch of religious fanatics who go around slaughtering people is no more or less evil than a bunch of clergymen who rape children or inciting murderous sectarian hatred.   
How am I doing so far?
Any church who condones or actively supports such behaviour is inherently evil and unfit to hold public office,
Any problems with that?.
All the major religions have been guilty of such behaviour to one extent or another in the relatively recent past.
There - yes or no, simple as that?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 05 Apr 15 - 03:39 PM

The "we" in his case here includes the vast majority of soldiers who believe in beer, sex, wanking and football.

Also includes many soldiers who are from other faiths. In fact, Christians are less represented in the army than in the street.

Can you be clear who you mean when you say "we" Keith? You use "we" to mean God botherer in this thread so clarity when you mean "British soldier of multiple or usually non religion "

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 15 - 03:56 PM

By the way - The United Nations sent troops to Bosnia - Britain was only one of 41 other nations who went as part of the United Nations Protective Force, the others being Argentina, Australia, Bangladesh, Belgium, Brazil, Canada, Colombia, Czech Republic, Denmark, Egypt, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Ghana, India, Indonesia, Ireland, Italy, Jordan, Kenya, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malaysia, Nepal, Netherlands, New Zealand, Nigeria, Norway, Pakistan, Poland, Portugal, the Russian Federation, Slovak Republic, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Tunisia, Turkey, Ukraine, the United Kingdom and the United States.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Apr 15 - 05:16 PM

Q: Are you disputing the fact that "Chrstians"[sic] have exterminated untold millions...

A: Greg, yes. I have answered your question...

Wrong answer, Keith; in your own favorite, childish phrase, you lose.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 03:27 AM

It seems we are to get no response from Keith so, as expected, persecution is only persecution when it is done by Muslims and not too them - no surprises then!
Rather interesting phenomenon when scrolling down this now unmanageable thread, due to its size.
It invariably get's stuck on the massive list of Muslim atrocities supplied by Booboo - all lifted from the extremist 'Muslim Watch' site, which appears to sum up the Islamophobic nature of many of these arguments.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 03:42 AM

By Keith's logic, I reckon I was being religiously persecuted when I ran out of "Cuprinol" shed paint yesterday and bloody B&Q was shut. Didn't half soak the bugger up.

Oh and matting for my hanging baskets.

Guess where I am going shortly.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 05:36 AM

Britain's contribution to protecting Muslim people in Bosnia.

Peacekeeping efforts in Bosnia, between 1992 and 1995. In 1994, there were 2,450 British soldiers serving with the UN Protection Force, a contribution second only to that of the French.
4. Stabilisation in Bosnia, between the end of the war in 1995 and 2002. Britain had several hundred troops deployed in Bosnia to ensure there was no return to the conflict which had raged for three years.

Kosovo 1999. The RAF deployed Tornados as part of a 78-day bombing campaign to halt the ethnic cleansing of Albanian Muslims. By April 26, they had carried out around 350 attack sorties, about 10 per cent of the overall attack effort by that stage.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 05:46 AM

So Jim, of course persecution is bad whoever the victim.

The persecution of Christians and the massacres are being largely ignored.
No international forces are being deployed to save them, as happened for the Muslims in Bosnia and CAR.
The Pope called it silent complicity.

That is why I raised it again here.
Why does it make you angry?

Greg, I did answer your question.
You did not say that it had to comply with your prejudices.
So, were you being serious when you said the massacres are "long overdue, too, Keith ?"

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 06:35 AM

"So Jim, of course persecution is bad whoever the victim."
I asked specific questions - you refuse o respond
One more time
By "we" I assume you don't mean Christians - not interested what the British Government does - she only obeys her masters voice.
Th massacres in former Yugoslavia were carried out by Christians slaughtering Muslims - doesn't come any more complicated than that.
Lets see if we can't clear a few things up.
All sectarian persecution is evil no matter who does what to whom
A bunch of religious fanatics who go around slaughtering people is no more or less evil than a bunch of clergymen who rape children or inciting murderous sectarian hatred.   
How am I doing so far?
Any church who condones or actively supports such behaviour is inherently evil and unfit to hold public office,
Any problems with that?.
All the major religions have been guilty of such behaviour to one extent or another in the relatively recent past.
There - yes or no, simple as that?
Please respond to all points - are not Christians and guilty as Muslim extremists in carrying ou sectarian atrocities, especially as Nigerian Christians are now killing Muslims who fled Boko Harem attacks
They are, in fact, as bad as one another.
Let's see if you are in agreement with that one.
"Why does it make you angry?"
The only thing that makes me angry is your hypocrisy - all sectarian extremism is unacceptable - why only condemn only one side? - let's here it for the Nigerian Muslims being slaughtered by Christians
Nobody challenged Britain's role in Bosnia - they responded as a member of the U.N. as did many other countries - certainly not on humanitarian grounds, as you suggested.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: BrendanB
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 06:42 AM

Greg F states that persecution of Christians is overdue. That is a vile statement. Any decent human being would condemn persecution, regardless of victims or perpetrators.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 06:59 AM

Jim, please state plainly questions you want me to answer.
let's here it for the Nigerian Muslims being slaughtered by Christians
What Muslims slaughtered by Christians?
The slaughtering is done by Boko Haram and it is Christians they single out.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 07:06 AM

Guardian this year,
(Boko Haram) killed more than 10,000 people last year alone, according to the Washington-based Council on Foreign Relations. More than a million people are displaced inside Nigeria and hundreds of thousands have fled across its borders into Chad and Cameroon.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 07:24 AM

"Jim, please state plainly questions you want me to answer."
Oh, fr crying out loud!!
These problems are ones of religion as a whole, not one particular religion
Advocating for one while refusing to acknowledge the other is taking sides - which is exactly what you are doing
Christians are just as likely to carry out atrocities as are members of any other religion - see Nigeria
Yes or no?
Jim Carroll.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 07:46 AM

Christians are just as likely to carry out atrocities as are members of any other religion - see Nigeria

In theory of course, but it is not what we see.
Christians are being massacred all over the Middle East and many parts of Africa.

Where are there Muslims massacred by Christians Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 08:20 AM

There we have it - Northern Ireland, Nigeria, former Yugoslavia, atrocities carried out at the behest of the Christian Church - no atrocities
What I said unless it's Muslims doing it it ain't an atrocity.
"The slaughtering is done by Boko Haram and it is Christians they single out"
News reports today describe Christians murdering Muslims who fled Bokum Harem - deny it or condemn it.
You are a hypocrite and your hypocrisy makes you and every other hypocrite part of the problem.
Until religious bodies are forcibly forbidden to play any role other than spiritual (and that under the strictest supervision) these conflicts will continue and people will continue to die and kill in the name of their particular deity.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 09:19 AM

People are being slaughtered. The religion of those slaughtering is the key, not the assumed religion or none of the victims. Church leaders obscenely jump on the stories to make people feel guilty about pushing religious nonsense to the fringes of society.

I hope Welby is good at praying. Calling victims martyrs is beyond contempt and gives comfort to the criminals doing the killing.

Sick puppies. (By the way, it seems a number of vicars and others in the church agree with me according to some reports.)

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 09:30 AM

A brief review for the benefit of Brendan et. al.:

sar·casm
/sär,kazəm/

noun: sarcasm; plural noun: sarcasms

The use of irony to mock or convey contempt.
    "his voice, hardened by sarcasm, could not hide his resentment"
    synonyms: derision, mockery, ridicule, scorn, sneering, scoffing;

i·ro·ny
/īrənē/

noun: irony

The expression of one's meaning by using language that normally signifies the opposite, typically for humorous or emphatic effect.
    ""Don't go overboard with the gratitude," he rejoined with heavy irony"
    synonyms: sarcasm, causticity, cynicism, mockery, satire, sardonicism

sar·don·ic
sär/dänik/

adjective: sardonic

    grimly mocking or cynical.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 09:56 AM

News reports today describe Christians murdering Muslims who fled Bokum Harem - deny it or condemn it.

Please show us Jim.
I would certainly condemn such murders.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: BrendanB
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 11:00 AM

Greg F, delighted that you know how to use a dictionary. Doesn't change my view of what you said or the insight it gives into your character.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 11:15 AM

I am wed a full apology for your assertion that I was lying – I don't expect one – you don't do that sort of thing
I do expect an acknowledgement that Christians are just as likely to carry out sectarian murder as any other religious group
Going on the squirming that has taken place so far, I don't expect that either
Jim Carroll

From today's Times
CHRISTIANS TAKE REVENGE AS BOKOA HAREM IS DRIVEN OUT
Sectarian fury sweeps through a Nigerian town cleared of jihadists. Jerome Starkey reports from Michika
The oldest scars were smooth and dark, diagonal stripes across the right side of Ismail Ahmed's back, beneath an open sore. The fresher wounds were still pink.
Mr Ahmed had been arrested by the Nigerian army on suspicion of helping Boko Haram, but the tears he shed were for his brother, Umaru, who the soldiers had shot dead, he said.
The men had been hiding in the mountains outside Gulak, northeast¬ern Adamawa state, when in February the army advanced with vigilantes to recapture the town from Boko Haram.
"The vigilantes said we should come down and nothing would happen to us," Mr Ahmed said. "I went back. I stayed in my house for three weeks. Then the soldiers came and blindfolded me and took me to their base."
He spent four days in a military pris¬on, where he was flogged, and eight days in a police cell, in the state capital Yola, before he was released without charge last week.
His brother, a farmer, had been hid¬ing in another village and had waited longer to come down. His family did not learn that he was dead until a neigh¬bour called last week.
"They said he was trying to get home when he met the soldiers who took him away and killed him," Mr Ahmed said.
Nigeria's armed forces, with help from neighbouring Chad, Niger and Cameroon, have recorded a series of victories in recent months, retaking ground from the insurgents after years of routs and humiliating inertia.
Yet many Muslims who were
displaced by the fighting are afraid to go home for fear of harassment from the military or reprisals from their Christian neighbours, who bore the brunt of Boko Haram's savagery.
Saleh Jibril, who fled to a refugee camp in Yola, said that a friend had found his wife floating in a river with herhandstiedbehindher back after she tried to hike through the mostly Christ¬ian district of Michika, about 20 miles south of their home in Gulak, in March.
Salihi Ateequ, a member of the Adamawa state Muslim Council, said his sister, Hinidiyatu Tijjani, also went back to Michika soon after it was liberated, to check on their mother who had stayed behind.
"She spent four days in Michika, but as she was coming back she was ambushed,'' Mr Ateequ said.
She was carrying a baby on her back, and both of them were hacked to death with cutlasses.
"The Christians in Michika believe the Muslims invited Boko Haram to come and kill them," Mr Ateequ added. "So now it's vengeance and every Muslim is a target."
The tensions in Michika predate Boko Haram. The town already had wo market days, one on Saturday for Christians and one on Sunday for Muslims. It also had two rival water companies, selling plastic sachets of drinking water. GBM [God Bless Michka] Water was launched in 2012, resi¬dents said, because Christians refused to drink, or were unable to buy, the Muslim-owned Kaigama brand.
The road to Michika district was scarred with burnt-out shops and churches when The Times visited last week. School buildings were partially collapsed and the central mosque had been bombed by aircraft during the Nigerian advance. At least four major bridges had been destroyed and a Boko Haram tank, emblazoned with the insurgents' black logo, sat where it been abandoned.
At a church in Bazza the insurgents decapitated a life-size, fibreglass statue of St Peter and burnt the parish records office.
In Michika they had painted over shop signs and notices, as if the very words were an affront to their mission to prohibit western education. Arabic words were scrawled on the walls and a bank appeared to have been looted.
"The shops are all closed. Even if you have money, there is nothing to buy," said Cosmas Tizhe, a university lecturer.
Most of the people left there were either women or vigilantes. Local offi¬cials said that women returned before their husbands because they were less likely to be killed by Boko Haram and less likely to be suspected by the army.
"In the villages, almost all of the houses are burnt," Peter Salihu Gogura, Michika's commissioner for housing and urban development, said. "If the government comes in to rebuild these houses, definitely we can have peace, but if the government doesn't act, we will have problems."
Mr Gogura, who has both Muslim and Christian names, said the indige¬nous Christian Higgi tribe had a proud history of coexisting with the migrant Muslim traders, but he warned that Boko Haram had strained relations to breaking point.
"When somebody goes home and sees his house has been razed and he has nothing to eat and nowhere to lay his head, it's not easy. My fear is that as human beings, if you go home to nothing, and you know the people who caused this, you may not see eye to eye with them," he said.
For Umaru's widows, the decision not to go back was easy. "There is nothing for us to go back to," said Hawa, 39. But Mr Ahmed said he had no choice.
"I have to get back to prepare the fields," he said. "All we can do is pray to God to join our minds."

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 12:04 PM

Jim, I did not accuse you of lying.
I asked to see the reports you referred to.

You have provided only one, which was not available to me because I do not subscribe to The Times.

It reports three murders, none of them seen by the journalist.
If they are true, I unreservedly condemn them as strongly as each of the ten thousand Christians murdered in Nigeria just last year.

Thankfully, no reports of any massacres by Christians such as those inflicted on Christians in so many places.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 12:19 PM

Come, now, Brendan - just consider for a moment the amount of bad karma "Christians"[sic] have accumulated over two millenia. I also seem to recall something the "Christian"[sic] deity communicated in Galatianz VI : "Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." Do you doubt the word of God?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 01:25 PM

Professor, instead of qualifying your response why not just condemn the killing of Muslims by Christians.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 01:34 PM

"Jim, I did not accuse you of lying."
You implied I was
"It reports three murders, none of them seen by the journalist."
So the journalists were lying?
"the ten thousand Christians murdered in Nigeria just last year."
Can you prove ten thousand Christians were murdered last year - did the journalists count them?
You are a very bigoted individual?
These murders are religiously based whether they be Christian, Muslim, or those carried out by the Israelis, allegedly on behalf of the Jewish people.
It is no particular religion that is to blame, it is the power and authority that Churchmen take upon themselves - no religion is better than another in this matter and it is despicable to count heads to say they are.
All religions will continue to be a danger while they are allowed to dabble in politics.
This is an example of British Christianity for you - I don't suppose it registers on your sectarian Richter scale
Jim Carroll

WASHINGTON, June 3, 2014 — Some Muslims in Northern Ireland have announced plans to leave the country to avoid anti-Islamic violence. The announcement comes after an attack on a Muslim family in the city of Belfast, when crazed rioters broke into their home and assaulted them.

READ ALSO: Random acts of kindness by Muslim faithful too often ignored

The home invasion came after remarks from Belfast based Pastor James McConnell, who said in a sermon "The God we worship and serve this evening is not Allah. The Muslim god-Allah-is a heathen deity. Allah is a cruel deity. Allah is a demon deity." He later added that Islam is "a doctrine spawned in hell." Hospitalization was required for at least one of the victims.
A second attack occurred only hours later, also resulting in injuries. Victims told the Northern Ireland News Letter "The victim's friend, who had been cleaning up the broken glass outside the house after an attack earlier that day, said those involved in the attack had called the pair 'dirty Arabs' and 'Paki b******s.'"
The term "Paki" is viewed as a racial slur in Europe , particularly when directed at individuals of Pakistani descent (or of a similar appearance to those who come from Pakistan). The News Letter reports a young woman and a middle aged man have been arrested in connection with the attacks.
READ ALSO: Malaysia accused of shocking human rights violations, abuses against Shiite minority
Pastor Paul Burns of Adullam Christian Fellowship Church in Belfast agreed, telling the Belfast Telegraph "When Pastor McConnell is talking about it as a direct teaching of Satan – it is."
The Christian News Network reports "Following McConnell's May 18th sermon, the Police Service of Northern Ireland investigated the preacher for allegations of hate crime. Northern Ireland's Deputy First Minister Martin McGuinness described the preacher's comments as 'hate mongering' and said the anti-Muslim statements 'must be condemned in the strongest possible terms.'"
McGuinness told the Daily Mirror "Coming in the wake of recent spate of disgraceful racist attacks against families in parts of Belfast and elsewhere, such inflammatory comments only serve to fuel hatred … [It is] essential that there is a full and thorough investigation of these comments and their potential to generate further racist attacks."
The First Minister of Northern Ireland, Peter Robinson, has also thrown his support behind Pastor McConnell. According to the BBC "[Robinson] went on to say that he would not trust Muslims either."
The remarks by the Pastor and First Minister have been met with strong criticism from the Christian community. Presbyterian Reverend Dr. Rob Craig spoke out against the remarks to the BBC, stating "They are not consistent with the Gospel of Christ and the love of God. I would be deeply offended if someone were to brand either all Presbyterians or all Christians with some extreme act by someone who claimed to do it in the name of Christ. I want to treat my neighbor as I would want to be treated myself."
"As Christians, it is our duty to spread the love of God across Ireland to those whom we meet and with whom we come into contact, irrespective of nationality, race or creed, and be gracious in doing so," said a spokesperson for another Church to the Belfast Telegraph. "I would reject any generalized view of Muslim people," he continued. "I do not view Islam as a monolithic religion but as taking different expressions and possessing within itself a variety of theological traditions."
"I believe that the Church of Ireland is right to engage in constructive dialogue with other religions. To do so is not to endorse other religious beliefs but is to recognize those of other faiths who are willing to join in such an effort will do so in the right spirit," said Canon Ian Ellis, editor of The Church of Ireland Gazette.
Facing a police investigation over instigating a hate crime, Pastor McConnell has attempted to backpedal by apologizing to the victims of the attack and offering to pay for the damages caused by the home invasion. It is unknown if the offer to pay for the attack counts as a legal admission of guilt in Northern Ireland. First Minister Robinson has also backed away from his remarks. Critics describe the apologies and changes in demeanor as "insincere."
"I'm regretting what happened to me. The friends told me yesterday 'we were right what we told you before, not to go [to Northern Ireland],'" said Muhammad Asif Khattak, a victim of the attack, to BBC.
BBC reports that hate crimes in the country are up 30% from last year, but successful investigations into attacks has plummeted to 20%.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 02:06 PM

Raggy, Yes I condemn the killing of Muslims by Christians, again.

Jim, the journalist may have been lied to.
The story has not been picked up by any other news source.

The figure of ten thousand came from The Guardian quoting The Council on Foreign Relations.
Boko Haram kills Christians not Muslims.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 02:35 PM

"I condemn the killing of Muslims by Christians, again."
You have trivialised it by casting doubt on it and by suggesting there were only three - no comment on those who are not able to return to their homes for fear of being murdered.
You have yet to comment on the Christian who is responsible for creating hatred o Muslims in Northern Ireland.
Yoy have never commented on the sectarian inspired bloodbath in Northern Ireland egged on by fanatical clergymen - i fact you have described their hate-marches on the 'Glorious Twelfth as "harmless days out".
To have never recognised the 100,000 Muslims slaughtered by Christins in Bosnia (not to mention the torture, mass rapes and concentration camps) as Christian atrocities - instead, you continue to claim there have been no massacres carried out by Christians.
"Thankfully, no reports of any massacres by Christians such as those inflicted on Christians in so many places."
You are a hypocrite.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: BrendanB
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 02:42 PM

Greg F, interested to see that you have abandoned your attempt to justify your comment as sarcasm. Also interested to see that you feel that a quote from Galatianz (sic), a      specifically Christian writing which you appear to loathe, somehow justifies your remark.
You have every right to despise Christianity and Christians and I would defend your right to express that. I would not defend your right to suggest that anyone, of whatever creed or persuasion, somehow deserves to be persecuted.
It seems to me that you made a flip, thoughtless remark that you realise is unacceptable and that is something that we all do on occasion; or you actually meant it. Can't see another alternative. If it's the former withdraw it, if it's the latter at least have the courage to say so - you would like to see Christians slaughtered. Islamic State, Boko Haram and Al Shabaab have made a very promising start.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 02:48 PM

You know Jim that's the second time KAOH has been named as a hypocrite in the last four hours by people on two separate threads.

Now KAOH is a great believer in consensus as he may admit he is one


............... but I doubt it.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 02:59 PM

Greg F, interested to see that you have abandoned your attempt to justify your comment as sarcasm

I have? News to me. Apparently YOU need to learn how to use a dictionary.

you made a flip, thoughtless remark that you realise is unacceptable

I realize no such thing. I think, in the circumstances, it is considerably more acceptable that the mindless maundering and whingeing about "Christian Persecution".

at least have the courage to say so - you would like to see Christians slaughtered.

The only one who has said that they would "like to see Christians slaughtered" is yourself, above.

Now, about that "as you sow, so shall you reap" business- do you doubt the word of God? Remember, too, that all this tsoris is part of "God's Plan", to which "Christians"[sic] are supposed to meekly submit. So why the outrage at Muslims? Shouldn't you be outraged at the Christian God?

Or would you prefer to discuss "The War On Christmas"?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 02:59 PM

You see, the reason Keith is questioned in general by so many people on here is exemplified in this discussion with Jim regarding an article in the Times.

Keith is incapable of believing what people type unless they can give some link or other.

Highly insulting. He is still calling two Muskets liars based in his inability to find corroboration. Far easier to call people liars.

Fucking fascinating...

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 03:06 PM

"but I doubt it."
Me too
Christins massacred 100,000 Muslims in Bosnia, 8,000 in Srebrenica alone
- "no massacres by Christians"
He reopened this thread to invite us to mourn a massacre that took place a century ago
Double standard hypocrisy or what - and yet it is we he described as bigots
What is this feller on - must find out who his dealer is!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: olddude
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 03:14 PM

What a hate filled place mudcat has become. Good luck ya need it cause I have more important stuff to do. like anything fucking disgrace

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 03:41 PM

Well said Dan. Vicious, ideologically driven morons.
Determined to kill Christianity, simply because they see it wrongly as "conservative"

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 03:51 PM

"You know Jim that's the second time KAOH has been named as a hypocrite in the last four hours by people on two separate threads."

That says more about the people doing the name calling than Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 03:58 PM

Determined to kill Christianity,

You finally have left reality completely behind, haven't you Ake?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 04:02 PM

That says more about the people doing the name calling than Keith.

Even when the people doing the "name calling" are entirely correct in their designation?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 04:06 PM

"Determined to kill Christianity,"
Nope just determined to stop them killing non Christians and raping children
Everyone is entitled to believe what they wish, they are not entitled to take or make miserable the lives of others who do not share those beliefs - whatever that is
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: BrendanB
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 04:07 PM

'Apparently YOU need to learn how to use a dictionary'.

Really, what evidence do you have for that?

You believe that advocating the slaughter of Christians is better than complaining and whinging about Christian persecution. You really do hate Christians don't you?

'The only one who said that they would like to see Christians is you, above'. Err, pardon? I assume that you can read, although the evidence is to the contrary.

Appending (sic) to a quoted word indicates that the original word is erroneous in some way. The word you wanted to use is Galatians, not Galatianz. The word I wanted to use was Christians, and that is the word I used. Hope this has been of help.

I always enjoy reading other people tell me what I believe, they are invariably wrong.

You're a bit of a plonker really.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 04:12 PM

You really do hate Christians don't you?

Christians? Not at all. "Christians"[sic]? you bet. Also assholes.

I always enjoy reading other people tell me what I believe, they are invariably wrong.

But then its perfectly OK when you do exactly the same thing to others? Who's the plonker now?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Peter from seven stars link
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 04:53 PM

I was wondering how Greg arrived at the idea that Christians have killed millions. Or maybe that was his being sarcastic and ironic. It certainly is ironic, since atheist dictators and gvt have been responsible for more murders in the last century, than in the whole history of the church. And I expect that would be true even if you count the crusades and any other war the church might have endorsed.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: BrendanB
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 05:22 PM

"Christians" (sic)

I really have no idea what you are talking about.

Please indicate where I have told you what you believe. I have extrapolated from statements that you have made but gone no further than is reasonable.

Pete, Greg has arrived at the idea that Christians have killed millions because over the centuries they almost certainly have. Try reading a couple of descriptions of the sack of Jerusalem by the crusaders for starters.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 06:35 PM

Pete, Greg has arrived at the idea that Christians have killed millions because over the centuries they almost certainly have.

Brendan, thank you. Sincerely. No joke. (But delete the "almost")

"Christians"(sic). I really have no idea what you are talking about.

Weel, let me refer you to your own elucidation, to whit: "Appending (sic) to a quoted word indicates that the original word is erroneous..."

I.e., there are plenty of folks - perhaps the majority of said folks - who claim to be ""Christians" who wouldn't recognize the teachings of Christ were they to rear up on their hind legs and bite them on the ass. Hence "Christians"[sic].

Please indicate where I have told you what you believe

Quote: "You believe that advocating the slaughter of Christians ..."

Q.E.D.

Oh, and picking on the typo re: Galacians as if it was something of importance is pretty silly as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 07 Apr 15 - 02:37 AM

I love how Christians make assertions and dismiss normal people as hating them yet start it in the first place.

I suppose it is the martry complex. A bit like train spotters ticking off trains they have observed.

If I hated Christians I'd be a sad bugger all round. But there again, most Christians I know don't make absurd claims on debate forums and then whinge when reality pops round for a chat.

If you don't want your delusion analysed for you, don't get on the couch.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Apr 15 - 03:13 AM

What are these people on?
This thread was started originally to show what an evil religion Islam is in its persecution of the poor Christian.
When it was pointed out that all religions are guilty and capable of persecution, the immediate response was "thread drift" - they only want to talk about crimes against Christians and refuse to discuss those perpetrated in the name of Christianity.
Now it's "you hate Christians" and were "determined to kill Christianity"
It is not Christianity or Christians Islam, Judaism.... that are the problem, it is the way that those various beliefs are used and abused by fanatics and, in many cases, by the Churches themselves.
Believe what you want; it would be wrong for anybody to try and prevent your doing so, but do not allow those who organise those beliefs to affect and threaten our lives as they have in the past and as they are doing now.
If you don't believe that 100,000 Muslims were killed by Christians in Bosnia, deny it and show it it not true.
This from one of the leaers, Radovan Karadzic
The West will be grateful to us some day because we decided to defend Christian values and culture".
If you say that fanatical Christian churchmen played no part in the slaughter that took place in Northern Ireland and that the conflict had nothing to do with an artificially partitioned country divided on religious grounds, say so and prove it is not the case.
All these people are saying here is, "my religion is innocent of any crimes and theirs is guilty" - which is what all religious conflict is all about.
Answer the points.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Apr 15 - 03:47 AM

I'd say Jim gave a very balanced assessment of the whole issue: "it is the way that those various beliefs are used and abused by fanatics and, in many cases, by the Churches themselves."

I wish this thread had been closed when the discussion died last year. Has anything new been said this year?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Apr 15 - 04:10 AM

Jim,
To have never recognised the 100,000 Muslims slaughtered by Christins in Bosnia (not to mention the torture, mass rapes and concentration camps) as Christian atrocities - instead, you continue to claim there have been no massacres carried out by Christians.

Of course I recognise those events.
I started a thread to mark the British Army's work in defending the Muslims of Bosnia.

It is not true that this thread was "started originally to show what an evil religion Islam is in its persecution of the poor Christian."

Islam is not an evil religion.
I started the thread because the issue of Christian persecution was said to be under reported and recognised.
The Pope this Easter called it "silent complicity."

I am trying in a small way to break that silence.
I am sorry it makes some people angry.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: BrendanB
Date: 07 Apr 15 - 04:14 AM

Point taken Joe.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Apr 15 - 04:16 AM

Me too Joe, but boys will be boys.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Apr 15 - 05:40 AM

" started the thread because the issue of Christian persecution was said to be under reported and recognised."
The persecution certainly is not under=reported or unrecognised, what is is the persecution by the Christian church, and you have persistently tried to get this removed from this discussion.
If you believe the two are unrelated, please show us why.
"I am trying in a small way to break that silence"
No silence - people have said all religious persecution is wrong - you have defended religious persecution by denying its existence and by attempting to remove it from this and other discussions as "thread drift"
You have yet to condemn persecution by the Christian Church without qualification - last chance saloon - do so now.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 07 Apr 15 - 06:03 AM

Nothing new since christianity as we know it was invented, about the same time as Islam... The mind control and belonging was a reaction to the first rise of Islam if most honest theologian historians are to be believed. Even the eminent ones writing recently 😎

Jim has it on the button here. If you post on a thread, you are inviting debate. Asserting gets assertive challenge. Reasoned debate for a reason doesn't.

This thread was started to perpetuate Islamophobia, and in the name of a co superstition, which makes it all the more galling. Most people I know who belong to faiths of one sort or another do not assert it as some ultimate truth, even though privately they may feel that way. Most people get on with their comfort blanket, it is the insecure ones who reach out to ridicule rational people, as they want to feel safe in numbers. As I said, on a positive note, it could be that his position shames him on the intellectual level, whilst most boutique christians are far more well balanced and see their faith in a similar way to my faith in Sheffield Wednesday.

Whatever, the idea that a majority of people in The UK still believe in a God, when we are all decently educated, even allowing for the varied competence level of teachers, is an absurdity that doesn't need challenge, it just needs you to walk round with your eyes open.

This thread and others started by The Rt Rev Acheson to push his hobby and provoke reaction are sadly at the "point and laugh" level.

Always happy to oblige. Although I accept both sides of this thread must dismay genuine christians who don't get much choice in who they find themselves associated with. (Far too many MPs are fellow Sheffield Wednesday fans but woe betide the idea I share their take on life.)

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Apr 15 - 06:19 AM

By the way Keith
Youve at no time raised the question of Bosbia in terms of it being an atrocity carried out against Muslims by Christians.
On the contrary, you brought it up as a humane act on te part of us Brits to save the Bosnian people - religion wa nemev mentioned nd your point was a dishonest one anyway
The Brits involved themselves in the U.N. peacekeeping force at the behest of the U.N. - no altruism or humanity intended "we acted to stop it by putting our own people in harms way" my arseum!!
Jim Carrtoll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: BrendanB
Date: 07 Apr 15 - 08:05 AM

Musket, just for information - Islam began in the middle of the 7th century, Christianity began round about 30 AD. So probably not at the same time then. (Unless of course you think that Elizabeth II was queen round about the time of the Peasants' Revolt. Joke, joke! Please don't climb out of your pram!)

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,#
Date: 07 Apr 15 - 09:42 AM

"Has anything new been said this year?"

Little new has been said in the past four years.

SSDD

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Apr 15 - 10:30 AM

Jim, of course I recognise that Christians massacred Muslims in Bosnia.
Deplorable.
Britain sent a major force to support the UN defend them.
Small cheer?

You have yet to condemn persecution by the Christian Church without qualification
Which Christian church is guilty Jim?

you have defended religious persecution by denying its existence and by attempting to remove it from this and other discussions as "thread drift"
I have not.

Britain's contribution to protecting Muslim people in Bosnia.

Peacekeeping efforts in Bosnia, between 1992 and 1995. In 1994, there were 2,450 British soldiers serving with the UN Protection Force, a contribution second only to that of the French.

Stabilisation in Bosnia, between the end of the war in 1995 and 2002. Britain had several hundred troops deployed in Bosnia to ensure there was no return to the conflict which had raged for three years.

Kosovo 1999. The RAF deployed Tornados as part of a 78-day bombing campaign to halt the ethnic cleansing of Albanian Muslims. By April 26, they had carried out around 350 attack sorties, about 10 per cent of the overall attack effort by that stage.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 07 Apr 15 - 10:52 AM

Brendon. . Read what I put. "The mind control and belonging" was a reaction to competition in southern Europe, according to a relative who studied theology to D Phil (Oxon) and is now a common or garden vicar. (We do have the occasional chewing of fat over a bottle and I quite enjoy it.)

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: BrendanB
Date: 07 Apr 15 - 12:30 PM

That will teach me to read posts more carefully.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Apr 15 - 12:35 PM

Musket,
Whatever, the idea that a majority of people in The UK still believe in a God, when we are all decently educated,

It has no relevance to this thread, but the National Census and independent surveys and polls prove that atheists are a minority here, as in every other country.

This is being discussed on a less serious thread than this one, and I will reply to any more stuff there.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Apr 15 - 12:46 PM

Which thread is that, Keith? I seem to have missed it.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Apr 15 - 01:25 PM

Michael, I meant the discussion about how many atheists, which is on the Jeremy Clarkson thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Apr 15 - 02:35 PM

Is there a difference between people who say they are Christians, a large number, and people who are actually Christians in as much as they attend a Christian service on a regular basis.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 07 Apr 15 - 02:59 PM

What's an atheist?

How do you know how many people activity reject theism?

Mind you. Thank-you for accepting you have been talking bollocks. Less serious threads certainly are the best place for your nonsense and fairy tales.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Apr 15 - 03:08 PM

"Which Christian church is guilty Jim?"
Does it matter
The Catholic Church has overseen the persistent rape of children by clergymen for decades - they continue to to hide the evidence so the victims cag get some sort of closure - you are fully aware of this.
Protestant Churchmen in Ireland were active in ascertaining that Catholics did not achieve full civil rights there - preachers such as Ian Paisley were renowned as rabble-rousers urging violence against the "Papist Antichrists" The actual denominations of those involved in the Bosnian massacres is immaterial - they were fighting for Christianity and they said so.
"I have not."
What???
You demandede on numerous occasions when I brought up the fact that Christians were equally capable of persecution, that this thread was about Christians being persecuted
"Obviously there is no hope of you actually addressing the issues of this thread Jim.
You just rake up groundless smears against me as a person.
That is your only reason for posting here."
Want more?
You really shoudn't tell lies on the same thread as the incriminating statements
Still no coonxwmnation of Christian acts of persecution and mass-murder
The Muslims must have the monopoly
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Apr 15 - 04:13 PM

...who are actually Christians in as much as they attend a Christian service on a regular basis.

"Actually Christians?"

"Christians"[sic] Goin' to church on a regular basis don't make 'em Christians.

Church-going "Christians"[sic] historically made and currently make up the membership of the Ku Klux Klan.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Apr 15 - 04:19 PM

An interesting perspective on the persecution of women by many world religions:

""The truth is that male religious leaders have had - and still have - an option to interpret holy teachings either to exalt or subjugate women. They have, for their own selfish ends, overwhelmingly chosen the latter. Their continuing choice provides the foundation or justification for much of the pervasive persecution and abuse of women throughout the world. This is in clear violation not just of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights but also the teachings of Jesus Christ, the Apostle Paul, Moses and the prophets, Muhammad, and founders of other great religions - all of whom have called for proper and equitable treatment of all the children of God. It is time we had the courage to challenge these views.""



Jimmy Carter from 2009 

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Apr 15 - 04:30 PM

You've had your chance to prove you are not a hypocrite Keith - you blew it.
Christians are capable of committing atrocities in the name of their religion as any other religious group - they certainly have done so in the recent past.
The problem under discussion here is oe of religious extremism - no religion is exempt from blame
Game, set and match - to adopt your own objectives in taking part in these discussions
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Apr 15 - 04:50 AM

Jim,
You demandede on numerous occasions when I brought up the fact that Christians were equally capable of persecution, that this thread was about Christians being persecuted

No. I just did not think clerical abuse was relevant to a discussion on persecution.

Christians are capable of committing atrocities in the name of their religion as any other religious group - they certainly have done so in the recent past.

I absolutely accept that, and I have said so before.

Still no coonxwmnation of Christian acts of persecution and mass-murder

I do and have condemn them, but are there any happening now for us to condemn?
There are all too many examples of Christians being massacred and forced out.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Apr 15 - 09:05 AM

"No. I just did not think clerical abuse was relevant to a discussion on persecution"
Yess you did - it's one of yor stock defences when you run out of excuses
"I absolutely accept that, and I have said so before"
Lip-service and evasion - you have refused to acknowledge even one and have said on numerous occasions that yo have never found evidence of one, even when you have #been given it.
That remains your position
Try again for a straight answer - are not what happened in Northern Ireland examples of major atrocites and persecution carried out by Christians in the name of their religion - a simple yes or no will suffice at this stage?
"but are there any happening now for us to condemn?"
You've been given the case of Nigeria - you first questioned that it was happening, then you trivaialised it because there were not enough dead (being driven from their homes doesn't count apparently!!) and now you've moved on.
"here are all too many examples of Christians"
There are too many examples of Palestinians being massacred and forced out -not Christians so unworthy of comment (other than to support and defend what is happening)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,#
Date: 08 Apr 15 - 09:13 AM

You people can't decide who to blame. One day it's the Christians, next day it's the Muslims and next day it's the Jews. Looks like it depends on who's convenient for the argument. Anyone had a good look at the arms dealers and their role in your various hatreds?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Apr 15 - 10:30 AM

Blame for what?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 08 Apr 15 - 10:33 AM

Any chance of buying a smaller paintbrush #?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 08 Apr 15 - 10:37 AM

Personally I blame anyone. Pagan, christian, muslim, jew, buddist, Baha'i or any other faith if they kill, repress or harm other people they are at fault. If they do it in the name of that faith they are doubly at fault.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Apr 15 - 10:42 AM

said on numerous occasions that yo have never found evidence of one,
I have never said such a ridiculous thing.

Re NI, of course there was sectarian killing, but the armed struggle was about who ruled the place.
It is not a good example of religious persecution.

You've been given the case of Nigeria - you first questioned that it was happening, then you trivaialised it because there were not enough dead (being driven from their homes doesn't count apparently!!) and now you've moved on.

Ten thousand Christians killed there last year.
You have found one journalist who has been told there were three killings by Christians.
If they are not true, it would be surprising if there were no reprisal and revenge attacks.
Individual human tragedies, and utterly despicable, but sadly not surprising.

There are too many examples of Palestinians being massacred and forced out

Excellent point Jim.
Compare the vast number of Mudcat posts about them to the very few about Christians massacred that approach genocide in many places.

Still no posts about the Palestinian refugees being massacred in Yarmouk.
Is it because you can not even try to blame Jews?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Apr 15 - 10:44 AM

I blame it on the boogie.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Apr 15 - 11:07 AM

"I have never said such a ridiculous thing."
Yes you have - you're at it again
"Re NI, of course there was sectarian killing, but the armed struggle was about who ruled the place."
The armed struggle was in opposition to the fact that Ireland had been partitioned in order to create a Protestant state - obvious to anybody anybody who has watched an Orange March.
See - you're at it yet again - you're given an example of religion based atrocities and you deny them, leaving what? - that the Muslims are the only religious terrorists.
I'm happy to go along with this for as long as you deny Christian atrocities - the longer you do, the more of a hypocrite you show yourself to be.
Please keep it up - you do make our lives so much easier.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,#
Date: 08 Apr 15 - 11:11 AM

"Any chance of buying a smaller paintbrush #?"

Then it'll take forever to paint the bigger picture. Besides, I'm learning from you guys.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Apr 15 - 12:18 PM

Jim, I am not "at" anything.
I really have never said what you accuse me of.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Apr 15 - 12:33 PM

You are denying what you have said and you are attempting to de-Christianise the Irish Troubles in order to avoid acknowledging that all religions, including Christianity, can and have committed atrocities.
You have never once acknowledged that fact, which is fine by me - it underlines your 'the Muslims done it" philosophy,
As I said, the longer you do it, the more odfa hypocrite you appear.
Keep up the good work.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Apr 15 - 01:36 PM

Surely the "Irish Troubles" were Republicans against Unionists?
The original United Irish movement was largely secular.

The people being massacred in their thousands by IS and Boko Harim are being murdered because the worship the wrong god.
Present day Christians do not use these methods to annihilate other religions.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Apr 15 - 01:39 PM

Jim,
in order to avoid acknowledging that all religions, including Christianity, can and have committed atrocities.

BUT I DO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT!

I keep acknowledging it and you keep ignoring it and pretending I have not.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 08 Apr 15 - 01:48 PM

I think the problem is Professor is that you always qualify your statements.

For example

"Re NI, of course there was sectarian killing, but the armed struggle was about who ruled the place. It is not a good example of religious persecution"

"I do and have condemn them, but are there any happening now for us to condemn? There are all too many examples of Christians being massacred and forced out"

You invariably qualify your replies which leads the rest of contributors to consider they are less than valid. Just give a straight condemnation, no if's no maybe's and perhaps you just may be taken seriously.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Apr 15 - 02:53 PM

"Surely the "Irish Troubles" were Republicans against Unionists?"
As I said - it was a war against an Ireland which was partitioned on religious grounds - what on earth do you think the Orange Lodges and the "Papish Antichrists" are all about?
The United Irishmen were nationalists trying to throw out the Brits; when the Empire couldn't hang on any longer, they partitioned the country making sure that the Protestants dominated the Six Counties
Originally, the plan was to partition the nine counties of Ulster, but, as the would have given the Catolics a majority, they dropped the three awkward ones
Go read a book
Bokum Harem is a fanatical break--off from the Muslim religion.
You' like Keith, have chosen to ignore the atrocities carried out by Christians - they have proved both ready and willing to kill in the name of their beliefs, just as yout friend, Anders Bering was (do I have that wrong - he is a Christian, s is Radovan Karadzic, Jim Jones, Timothy McVeigh
It is religion as a whole that is the problem, not any particular religion.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Apr 15 - 03:27 PM

If Bokum Harem is a fanatical offshoot, which I may be prepared to accept, what is IS?

When a number of fanatical offshoots of the same religion spring up and combine as a Caliphate, surely questions require to be asked?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Apr 15 - 03:27 PM

"Present day Christians do not use these methods to annihilate other religions."

Was the actions of the mainly orthodox christian Serbs against peoples of muslim religion really that long ago?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Apr 15 - 03:39 PM

"I keep acknowledging it and you keep ignoring it and pretending I have not."
You have not - you have qualified or cast doubt on every single case of Christian persecution raised.
Try again, Bosnia and Northern Ireland are basically no different in essence to what is happening in the world - is that right? I don't need a condemnation - we all do that - I want a confirmation that all churches are equally guilty and capable of persecution - simple as that.
We all condemn religious or any form persecution, be it in the name of Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Muslims.... whoever - everybody but you, that is
You are the only one to have actively condoned and denied proven persecution.
Maybe I should qualify what I mean about "religion".
Personally practiced religion is fine with me - I don't partake, but many of my family and friends do - all my neighbours, in fact.
It is important to many of them and, when they take the everyday teachings of their religion seriously, it makes for good people.
The problem lies with the Churches who attain temporal power and abuse it - fascist Spain, Portugal, Chile and various other parts of Central and South America....
Popes have blessed bombs going to Abyssinia and have turned their backs when Italian Jews were being herded into concentration camps.
The Church of England fully backed and benefited from the rape of the world, which we now refer to as 'The British Empire'.
Pinochet carried out his atrocities with the blessing of the Chilean Church
King Leopold massacred 10 million Belgian Congolese in pursuit of rubber - the church stayed silent.
Apartheid South Africa had the support of the Dutch Reform Church.
I believe religion to be a problem, but I am being unfair to claim that it is to blame for atrocities and persecution - that is down to some churches and some fanatics - and they can "kick with any foot" as they used to say in Liverpool (and probably still do)
Jim Carrolj

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Apr 15 - 03:58 PM

"fanatical offshoot"

They are Muslims who adhere to and implement a literal interpretation of Islam as do many in Islamic countries particularly those who govern by Sharia law.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Apr 15 - 04:38 PM

surely questions require to be asked?

What questions?

Muslims who adhere to and implement a literal interpretation of Islam as do many in Islamic countries particularly those who govern by Sharia law.

As indeed there are "Christians"[sic] who adhere to a literal interpretation of "Christianity"[sic] and who are applying this literal interpretation to governing "Christian Countries"[sic] like the U. S. of A.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Apr 15 - 05:34 PM

How many Christians judicially executed in USA for converting to Islam, Greg?

Just asking...

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Apr 15 - 05:35 PM

Ed,
Was the actions of the mainly orthodox christian Serbs against peoples of muslim religion really that long ago?

Last century.
Western forces, mainly British and French, moved in to save the Muslim people.

Who will save the Christians today?

Jim,
"I keep acknowledging it and you keep ignoring it and pretending I have not."
You have not - you have qualified or cast doubt on every single case of Christian persecution raised.

Not true.
I again acknowledge, WITHOUT QUALIFICATION OR RESERVATION, that all religions, including Christianity, can and have committed atrocities.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Apr 15 - 05:44 PM

It is not just me saying this is an issue.
I have quoted world leaders, the Pope and Canterbury.

9pm BBC2 next Wednesday.
"Kill The Christians"
"...hundreds of thousands of Christians are fleeing Islamic extremists..
is in danger of disappearing in large parts of its ancient heartland..."

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Apr 15 - 05:47 PM

Good heavens MGM.Lion you are surely not expecting any answer to that are you? Hope you're not holding your breath

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 08 Apr 15 - 05:51 PM

Professor you really are astonishing.In your last post you stated:

"I again acknowledge, WITHOUT QUALIFICATION OR RESERVATION, that all religions, including Christianity, can and have committed atrocities"

and YET in the SAME post you manage to infer that the Bosnian War (1992-1995)didn't really count because it was "Last Century"

You truly are a buffoon.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Apr 15 - 06:00 PM

How many Christians judicially executed in USA for converting to Islam, Greg?

Well, Lyin', just give the "Christian"[sic] fundagelicals a chance - that's what they're working towards, even if they're not quite there yet. There's always hope, as long as Ron Paul, Huckabee, Cruz and Rubio are in the running.

And by perverting Christ'e teachings, they're every bit as reprehensible as those that are perverting the teachings of Mohammad.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 08 Apr 15 - 06:06 PM

OK MGM I'll answer, none that I know of.

That doesn't prove that Christians (and other religions) are innocent of crimes.

Just last month Archbishop Tomasi stated that the Vatican would support the use of violence against IS forces.

Surely a church should not be suggesting such things.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 08 Apr 15 - 06:10 PM

Yeah Terribulus. Let's all get a stiffy because a confused old fool has asked an irrelevant question!

Gee McWhizz! Those normal people can't answer so we bigots must be right after all!

Pathetic fool.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Apr 15 - 06:23 PM

"Western forces, mainly British and French, moved in to save the Muslim people."

Save the muslim people from the serbian christians. Btw,is it reasonable to believe that all British, French, and other western forces are christians.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Apr 15 - 07:07 PM

perverting the teachings of Mohammad

Rather than the teachings of Mohammed being perverted they are, in fact, being implemented as written in the Qur'an and Sunnah by those who espouse a literal interpretation of those works. Most Christian sects have long ago accepted the allegorical nature of the Bible. Of course there are small pockets of believers who promote literal interpretation of selective parts of the Bible but these are outliers whose beliefs are not endorsed by the mainstream Churches.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Apr 15 - 01:44 AM

Raggytash -- No-one claimed any such thing. Just that idiot-Greg specifically named the USA, for no reason that I can see, as equivalent to the Muslim-Beheademall-Lands. --- 8 April 0438 pm; with idiot response to my question at 0600 to effect that "maybe not, but I bet they would if they could". Pathetic!

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Apr 15 - 01:51 AM

Well, whichever, Musktwat - 08 Apr 15 - 06:10 PM from contributions and exchanges on this forum I would say that that "confused old fool" as you ignorantly and unnecessarily describe him has shown himself to be better educated, more literate, more rational and certainly more mannerly than the three of you lumped together.

In the context of the thread and remarks made by GregF the question was far from irrelevant:

"How many Christians judicially executed in USA for converting to Islam, Greg?"

The answer to the question Musktwat is NONE, which of course any FOOL would know but as you seem to like dishing out that particular label and accuse people of being fools shall we have a look at GregF's reply?

"Well, Lyin', just give the "Christian"[sic] fundagelicals a chance - that's what they're working towards, even if they're not quite there yet."

Ah so GregF condemns on the strength of what may happen, albeit however unlikely, at some time in the indeterminate future and everybody must accept that as representing the situation "here and now".

Don't know about you Musktwats but I'd say that it was GregF that was showing himself to be the confused pathetic fool. But that is the trouble with bigots and fascists like yourselves and GregF - brook no contradictions to what your version of "normal" (And there is only YOUR version of "Normal" isn't there Musktwat?) is and what your version of the "Party Line" is.

Also odd that you scatter labels and accusations around like confetti, yet whenever called to produce any evidence to support your claims you fall completely silent on detail and launch into personal attack, distortion and distraction.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 09 Apr 15 - 03:27 AM

Cor! You don't say? None have been executed for being Muslim... Well well you live and learn. Thanks for settling that one Terribulus. Mind you, not sure who said there had been. Straw men being your modus operandi.

Of course, plenty executed for being black and / or poor, which is the same thing from the perspective of the innocent person feeling the drug enter their body.




Ed. I personally wouldn't assume all British, French etc troops are Christian. Mainly on the basis if you add the Muslims. Sikhs etc and the vast majority of soldiers who aren't anything in religious terms, there aren't many Christians in the armed forces. Fewer still who would carry out humanitarian acts in a religiously judgemental manner.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 09 Apr 15 - 03:33 AM

Teribus in your last post you stated

" Also odd that you scatter labels and accusations around like confetti, yet whenever called to produce any evidence to support your claims you fall completely silent on detail and launch into personal attack, distortion and distraction"

I find this strange when the remainder of your post was doing exactly the same to Greg and to Musket.

Pot .... Kettle .......Black ......have any resonance with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Apr 15 - 03:42 AM

Teribus, Keith, and M, win again.....Jim has deserted and Team Musket have walked out with their hands up.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Apr 15 - 04:00 AM

Really Raggy?

Well you tell me what GregF was saying in his reply to MGM.Lion's question?

Have any Christians in America been executed for converting to the Muslim faith? (The specific question asked by MGM.Lion) The answer is NO The First Amendment guarantees religious freedom and is one of the pillars on which the Constitution of the United States of America is based:

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances." - Source: Legal Information Institutue, Cornell University Law School - far right enough website for you Musktwats?

So in replying to MGM.Lion's question and stating the following:

"Well, Lyin', just give the "Christian"[sic] fundagelicals a chance - that's what they're working towards, even if they're not quite there yet." - GregF

He is, is he not - condemning on the strength of what may happen, albeit however unlikely, at some time in the indeterminate future and everybody must accept that as representing the situation "here and now". If you disagree with that I'd dearly like to hear your reasoning.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Apr 15 - 04:28 AM

Musketwat - 09 Apr 15 - 03:27 AM

Cor! You don't say? None have been executed for being Muslim... Well well you live and learn. Thanks for settling that one Terribulus. Mind you, not sure who said there had been.

Correct Musktwat nobody did say that they had, but just to point you in the right direction a specific question was asked of GregF at 08 Apr 15 - 05:34 PM

"How many Christians judicially executed in USA for converting to Islam, Greg?

Just asking...

≈M≈:"

In asking the question I think MGM.Lion is drawing GregF's attention to the crime under Sharia Law of Apostasy [Noun: the abandonment or renunciation of a religious or political belief or principle.] - punishable by Death in Afghanistan, Brunei, Mauritania, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, the United Arab Emirates, and Yemen. Oh and I suppose in the newly established IS Caliphate, the "Beheademall Land" as described by MGM.Lion, that straddles the Syria/Iraqi border.

Now I believe that I have shown the fallacy on which GregF's response is based but on the other hand the Musktwats have accused me of many things and yet not once, even after having been specifically asked to do so, have they been able to come up with any substantive evidence to back up those accusations. So no Raggy - "Pot .... Kettle .......Black ......" does not have any resonance with me.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Apr 15 - 04:30 AM

BBC,

Kill the Christians
This World

Christianity is facing the greatest threat to its existence in the very place where it was born. Jane Corbin travels across the Middle East to some of the holiest places in Christendom and finds that hundreds of thousands of Christians are fleeing Islamic extremists, conflict and persecution. From the Nineveh plains in Iraq to the ancient city of Maaloula in Syria, Kill the Christians reveals the story of how the religion that shaped Western culture and history is in danger of disappearing in large parts of its ancient heartland.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b05rcr7n

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Apr 15 - 04:51 AM

Ed, those were secular armies of secular nations.
No claim was made about them being Christian.
The point I made was that strong international forces moved in to defend those Muslims from their Christian persecutors.
Who will now save the Christians?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Apr 15 - 06:48 AM

So Teribus you are not "launch(ing) into personal attack, distortion and distraction.

Fun smell round here ............. ah that's it bullshit, lets see you called them both fools, Greg a confused pathetic fool, and both of them bigots and facists to say nothing of referring to Musket as Musktwat.

I'll say it again Pot... Kettle ...Black

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Apr 15 - 07:18 AM

From the "I'll say it again" I take it that anonymous GUEST this time is Raggy.

Now go and read through the thread and find out who it was that referred to someone as a "confused old fool" (HINT Musket - 08 Apr 15 - 06:10 PM) - now then Raggy did you pull him up on it?? - Not on your life would you dare do that would you Raggy?

The Musktwat thing? I think that you will find that that came along as a result of the Musktwats calling anyone they disagreed with TWATS on this forum - They used it so they can hardly complain about it being turned back on them - fair enough? If not too bad I won't lose any sleep over it.

Call Musktwat, GregF, el al "fascists" and "bigots" of course I do because they are "fascists" and "bigots". It would appear that in your mind it is perfectly alright for them to dish it out while you grin on like a hyena from the sidelines, but a completely different kettle of fish when they demonstrate that they cannot take their own medicine - talking of kettles and fish - You may not be a "fascist", or a "bigots". You are just a "kipper" - two-faced and just plain gutless.

Now then Raggy tell me where I have distorted or distracted, looking back over my posts to this thread I seem to have been rather dogged in trying to get this forum's "fascists" to admit that they accuse without evidence then run for cover.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 09 Apr 15 - 07:37 AM

Teribus, once again you distort what is written. You condemned them both and did exactly the same thing as you accused them of.

So I'll reiterate it again (third time lucky perhaps) Pot, Kettle, Black.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Apr 15 - 07:59 AM

Ah but Raggy I provided both proof and reasoning for my arguments, they after having been asked repeatedly to do exactly the same thing have failed to do so - repeatedly

Now as you and dave the Gnome are only acting as tag team members while the Musktwats and a confused pathetic old fool like GregF are resting and trying their best to find a come-back - I'll just leave you to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 09 Apr 15 - 08:16 AM

Teribus, you say that you have proved proof and reasoning to support your arguments.

Your opening statement was : " Well, whichever, Musktwat - 08 Apr 15 - 06:10 PM from contributions and exchanges on this forum I would say that that "confused old fool" as you ignorantly and unnecessarily describe him has shown himself to be better educated, more literate, more rational and certainly more mannerly than the three of you lumped together"

Opinion .. yes, proof....can't see any, reasoning ....... no none of that either. Now MGM might be a lovely fellow but I do not know him and can offer no opinion.

Need I go on to the bit were your criticise them for being abusive and continue to be abusive yourself. You can condemn them if you wish but NOT if you are then guilty of the same offense.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Apr 15 - 08:26 AM

Oh but Raggy if they are personally and gratuitously abusive to those who do not deserve such treatment [e.g. MGM.Lion<7i>] then deserve to be paid back in kind - if they want to dish it out, then they had best be prepared to receive it. One way to halt it is for them to cease and desist. Also Raggy if they accuse anybody of doing something then they had best provide some evidence to back up the accusation and should that accused person be me then I will prod and goad them until they squeal and run, or alternatively come up with the said evidence, but both you and I know that that is never going to happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Apr 15 - 08:26 AM

Call Musktwat, GregF, el al "fascists" and "bigots" of course I do...You are just a "kipper" - two-faced and just plain gutless.

I can't speak for anyone else but myself, but it's a fair bet that most people reading your justifications for your name-calling would see this and cringe. One day you may learn that you don't win debates by dint of sheer aggression. And please don't bleat that you're not the only person who calls people names. We know that. It's the way that you continually defend your right to do it, as here, that stinks. Your assumption seems to be that you know you're always right, all the time, about everything. You should reflect on the fact that, aside from the occasional anonymous guest, the only people here who think that, apart from your good self, are Akenaton and Keith. You must feel very proud.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Apr 15 - 08:42 AM

Raggytash, you COULD go back and check the veracity of Teribus's statement....." from contributions and exchanges on this forum I would say that that "confused old fool" as you ignorantly and unnecessarily describe him has shown himself to be better educated, more literate, more rational and certainly more mannerly than the three of you lumped together"

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 09 Apr 15 - 08:55 AM

Akenaton,

You know very well that is NOT the point I am arguing. The point I am making is that Teribus cannot slate people as being abusive and then be abusive himself.

If they are wrong then so is he. You know it, Teribus knows it and I know it.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,#
Date: 09 Apr 15 - 08:58 AM

"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination, from authorities who have not themselves examined the questions at issue but have taken them at second-hand from other non-examiners, whose opinions about them were not worth a brass farthing."        

Mark Twain

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Apr 15 - 09:52 AM

Now as you and dave the Gnome are only acting as tag team members

Err, Teribus, as my only contribution to this thread has been

From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Apr 15 - 10:44 AM

I blame it on the boogie.

How am I part of any 'tag team'? You seem to be confused. I suspect it is all the spleen that is being vented...

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Apr 15 - 10:25 AM

BTW, ake, I did notice when I looked at that post that someone was called a "confused pathetic old fool". But it may not have been quite as you remember. I would advise you visit the post dated 09 Apr 15 - 07:59 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Apr 15 - 10:32 AM

It would appear that a post of mine has gone missing, which is strange as it only called Steve Shaw's attention to the fact that if he is going to quote me then quote the whole thing in context, as what was stated in the original post still stands why remove the other?

So here is the full quote again (It was aimed at Raggytash):

"Call Musktwat, GregF, el al "fascists" and "bigots" of course I do because they are "fascists" and "bigots". It would appear that in your mind it is perfectly alright for them to dish it out while you grin on like a hyena from the sidelines, but a completely different kettle of fish when they demonstrate that they cannot take their own medicine - talking of kettles and fish - You may not be a "fascist", or a "bigots". You are just a "kipper" - two-faced and just plain gutless."

And yes there does seem to be a Tag Team thing going on and Akenaton, myself and Keith A of Hertford have noted it. When the Musktwats, GregF have succeeded in making complete and utter fools of themselves then in jump Dave the Gnome; Raggytash and Good Ol' Steve Shaw.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Apr 15 - 10:42 AM

GUEST,Dave the Gnome - 09 Apr 15 - 10:25 AM

BTW, ake, I did notice when I looked at that post that someone was called a "confused pathetic old fool". But it may not have been quite as you remember. I would advise you visit the post dated 09 Apr 15 - 07:59 AM

And I would advise you, Dave the Gnome, to go a bit further back to:

Musket - PM
Date: 08 Apr 15 - 06:10 PM

Yeah Terribulus. Let's all get a stiffy because a confused old fool has asked an irrelevant question!

But don't worry Dave your "socialist" double standards and your "Trade Unionist" one law for the goose another for the gander is well known and plainly displayed for all to see.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Apr 15 - 10:45 AM

When the Musktwats, GregF have succeeded in making complete and utter fools of themselves then in jump Dave the Gnome; Raggytash and Good Ol' Steve Shaw.

I repeat. My only contribution to this thread has been

From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Apr 15 - 10:44 AM

I blame it on the boogie.

Hardly jumping in with anything considering it followed a few 'I blame it on' remarks. Not even got any idea who they were from now but the comment is hardly in support of anyone is it.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 09 Apr 15 - 10:46 AM

I never called anyone a confused pathetic old fool. confused old fool, but not pathetic.

If he were pathetic I would have not bothered because nobody is influenced by pathetic people.

But Michael does have moments of lucidity in some matters so it was important to point out he was a) old (you can allow for the older they get the less acceptable their rants) b) confused (his silly question had fuck all to do with the debate and c) fool (self explanatory.)

Talking of pathetic people. Akenhateon! What is this thing that Terribulus, Pte Acheson etc have won and why is Musket running off somewhere?

Don't bother. It will be irrational anyway.

(This Musket did run off today, to buy a new bouzouki. Another Musket is in India on behalf of the Scottish government and the third is in Canada getting the spring ski in. We fly out next week hopefully, although won't meet up. The three of us will be in Inveraray next month though. McMusket & his better half stage good parties.)

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Apr 15 - 10:52 AM

And I would advise you, Dave the Gnome, to go a bit further back

Why on earth would I want to do that? It's bad enough having to read the shite pertaining to my own posts without having to read the shite pertaining to anyone else's!

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Apr 15 - 11:44 AM

Once again --

""Elinor ... did not think he deserved the compliment of rational opposition." ― Jane Austen, Sense and Sensibility ...

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Apr 15 - 12:55 PM

I was quite careful with the context as it happens, good ol' Billy Boy. What I left out, and what you put back in, doesn't make the slightest difference to my point, demonstrated in the quote, that you present childish, schoolyard justifications for your own name-calling whilst condemning others for theirs. You really do think you're right all the time, don't you? Incidentally, if you want to get all persnickety about the accuracy of quotes, how come you were so quiet when your mate Keith was misquoting Mr Wheatcroft all over the show? Remember...?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Apr 15 - 01:43 PM

MM

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,#
Date: 09 Apr 15 - 01:46 PM

MMI

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Apr 15 - 02:39 PM

I did not misquote Wheatcroft.
I did not need to as he was supporting my view of WW1 and not the old discredited beliefs you people still cling to.

I quoted the relevant passage verbatim, and a link was provided so it could be seen in its origina intended context.

What you people picked up on was that I did not always quote in full subsequently.
No deception there.

It is not as if I faked up quotes and attributed them to historians whose real views were diametrically opposite.
Raggy and Musket both did that, and none of you people objected at all.
You post endlessly about a partial quote after a full one is given, but ignore real deliberate lies intended to deceive the forum.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Apr 15 - 02:46 PM

No one has yet commented on the BBC making a programme about the subject of this thread entitled "Kill The Christians."

You said it was wrong for me to start this thread, and that it proves me to be an Islamophobe.

That same criticism must then apply to the BBC, yet no outcry here or in the real world about their bigotry and racism.

It shows you were all wrong to object to this discussion being started and reopened.

Right Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Apr 15 - 04:31 PM

You appear to be eternally confused between a partial quote and a misquote. A partial quote is when you leave a bit out. A misquote is when you claim that the quotee said something he didn't. Which is what you did. Hope this helps.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Apr 15 - 05:02 PM

Yes, except I didn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Apr 15 - 05:23 PM

Well, Steve,

Kieth appears, from the abundant evidence he's posted here, to be operating at about Piaget's Preoperational, Toddlerhood (18-24 months) through early childhood (age 7) Stage.

No point in trying to engage him at a more advanced level.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Apr 15 - 05:33 PM

Dunno, Greg. He appears to have memory loss and severe confusion. Isn't that more of an old age thang?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Apr 15 - 05:35 PM

The more I think about it, the more I think it is a left brain / right brain type of issue. I fully understand what Steve says. I understand most of Musket says, although some of it goes over my head. I have met Raggy and we are definitely on the same wavelength.

Keith - I just do not know why you cannot see how you annoy people so much and why you come across, to me, as a devious liar. I am sure you are a nice guy and genuinely believe you are telling nothing but the truth. It is not your fault, it is mine. Just in the same way that I do not appreciate Jazz and Opera, I do not understand or like you. You probably think the same about me and, from various comments, you obviously do not understand what I am trying to put across. I doubt we will ever be friends but I am happy to call a truce.

You believe in god. I say I don't know. You believe in statistics. I trained for a while as a statistician and, again, will always doubt them. Your faith in these things is far greater than mine and I am sure it makes you content while I am more cynical and rely instead on self made happiness. Wouldn't life be boring if we were all the same.

I won't say good luck in your efforts because I don't believe you deserve it but I will say I wish you good health and peace.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Apr 15 - 02:55 AM

".Jim has deserted and Team Musket have walked out with their hands up."
Nope - I have been unable to open this thread since Wednesday - extremely frustrating.
Nice to see you have added to the "I won" mob, though
'the "kill Christians" statement makes no difference whatever, if anything, it underlines the point that all religious killings are evil, whoever they are carried out by.
You have chosen either to ignore or deny any extremism on the part of Christians and have denied that it takes place   
You people are the only ones ever to have supported sectarian terrorism in any shape or form - Keith vehemently, when it comes to that carried out by te Israeli regime in the name of the Jewish people (massacres of refugees, bombardment of hospitals, use of chemical and fragment weapons, starving an entire population onto submission - all ok by him).
He and you refuse to acknowledge any similar behaviour by your particular flavour-of-the-month (Bosnia, Northern Ireland - no comment).
All slaughter, sectarian or otherwise, is unacceptably ever - by Isis, Boko Harem, By Israeli's in the name of Judaism, Bosnian Christians killing 100,000 Muslims, Nigerian Christians killing and driving out returning Muslim refugees....... all are acts of evil, whether they are carried out by religious fanatics in the name of their religion or for military or economic advantage using religion as an excuse.
All of the main religious groups are capable of such acts and in the case of some of them, it is still happening (and this includes Christians   
I is just as evil and hypocritical to take sides, either by defending those acts or by excusing and ignoring them.
You people have chosen your side - it's them, not us, and you continue to refuse to acknowledge that it is all religious groups who step outside their religious remit who are the problem, not any one religion in particular.
God save us all from bigots and religious fanatics such as yourselves.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 10 Apr 15 - 03:25 AM

Let's get this right..

The BBC schedule some forthcoming entertainment and as a result, Keith reckons everyone is wrong.

And to think Dave reckons some of my posts go over his head. I'm 6'4 but Keith's post didn't even create a breeze on my slap head....

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Apr 15 - 03:33 AM

GUEST,Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 09 Apr 15 - 10:52 AM

And I would advise you, Dave the Gnome, to go a bit further back - (Teribus)

Why on earth would I want to do that?

Possibly to get to the truth of the matter, but no worries Dave, I provided the details of the post by Musktwat which shows who gratuitously started flinging names about. Besides for you to have gone back yourself and checked would have required a bit of honesty and integrity and all too plainly you have demonstrated on numerous occasions you possess neither - no bloody wonder it is so easy to accept that you were "active in the Trades Union movement".

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 10 Apr 15 - 03:41 AM

"I provided the details of the post by Musktwat which shows who gratuitously started flinging names about"

Hmmm just this thread then, not previous threads and it's still OK for you to use abuse but not anyone else.

I neither know nor care who started the name calling and abuse and I really don't have the time to trawl back through years of posts to find out.

What I do know is that if you want it to stop continuing to abuse people yourself is not the way forward.

Double standards seem to be at play.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Apr 15 - 04:04 AM

Of course all persecution is bad.
This thread highlights the current suffering of Christians because it is exceptional.
You people said that was Islamophobic.
It is not.
Ancient Christian communities are being driven to extinction within a single generation.
As the Pope said, to remain silent is to be complicit.

That is why the BBC is putting out a prime time programme about Christian persecution, and why I am raising it here.

Either everything you accuse me of applies to the BBC, or else you were all wrong to make those accusation.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Apr 15 - 04:42 AM

Teribus, you selective C&P says I posted "Why on earth would I want to do that?" when the full post is

Why on earth would I want to do that? It's bad enough having to read the shite pertaining to my own posts without having to read the shite pertaining to anyone else's!

If you look at the full quote anyone can see that the qualifier makes a huge difference. Still, my post of 09 Apr 15 - 05:35 PM to Keith applies equally to you. Apart from, in your case, I think it is your fault.

Carry on posting spite and bile by all means. I believe getting rid of your frustrations in a harmless manner is good for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Apr 15 - 04:43 AM

" course all persecution is bad."
Then admit that it is a relgious one and not one of any specific religion - as a Christian (supposedly) you should have the courage to take on the sins committed by your Church - that should be the responsibility of all who decalre themselves Christian.
Instead, you have defended and denied the atrocities committed by both your own Church and those committed in the name of Judiaism.
Yoursis not a religious stance, it is a political one
"Ancient Christian communities" have been responsible for some of the worst crimes in history - your own Church (if you are, as you claim, Church of England, came into being so a debauched pox-riddled English King could get his leg over - which led to thousands upon thousands of non-conformists suffering torture and horrific death - is that a heritage you feel is worth protecting?
People whi are massacred and persecuted are not Christians or Catholics or Pertestants or Jews or Muslims.... - THEY ARE PEOPLE, and defending and lamenting one group while excusing, and eve siding with the persecution and massacre of others is an evil act
How dare you demand sympathy for your particular religious sect after the efforts you have made in supporting the persecution of others by a terrorist state?
It is little wonder that religion is in the sharp decline that it is if you are representative of what it has to offer.
The BBC reports the news - you use that news as a platform for your bigotry and hatred - your comparison is pathertic.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Apr 15 - 04:54 AM

Amusing, Dave, that Billy Boy misrepresents using partial quotes whilst accusing me of doing the same thing. As with the name-calling, he seems to think that any behaviour of his, no matter how outrageous, is OK - because it's him.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Apr 15 - 05:02 AM

C'est la vie as they say in Scunthorpe.

(Hope this isn't deleted because of THAT word)

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Apr 15 - 05:03 AM

Instead, you have defended and denied the atrocities committed by both your own Church and those committed in the name of Judiaism.

You lie about me Jim, as you always do when you lose an argument.
I have never, ever done either of those things and if it is not a lie (and a particularly nasty one) produce an example.

Ancient Christian communities" have been responsible for some of the worst crimes in history

They deserve to die then.
No.
These are some of the poorest, most deprived people in the world and they have never persecuted anyone, and have not committed the worst crimes in history or any crimes at all.

You clearly hate these people, and hate them because of their belief.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Apr 15 - 06:49 AM

How ****** dare you - they are ny family, my friends and neighbours - I grew up surrounded by Catholics and I live them on a daily basis
Many of them are "real Christians" - not the squalid plastic substitutes you represent.
Masny of them are far more condemnatory than I am of the Church because they and their children have suffered at the hands of Clerical abusers.
Lose an argument - what argument - you haven't put one up.
You have refused to respond to what I have said and you hide behind your newly assume#d piety to once again defend atrocities.
The poorest and most deprived people in the world are the ones still being exploited by the remnants of Empire in places like Pakistan and India - Marks ad Sparks and Primark are among those who continue to grow wealth on that exploitation.
Once again you make a case for poverty-stricken Christians, ignoring the Muslims and other religions being exploited and terrorised by "The Free West"
Exploited and terrorised people are people, it doesn't matter what religion they are.
One thing is certain, those in trouble because of religious terrorism will receive no welcome in Britain whan they find themselves forced to flee fighting that has been caused largely by the self-interested protectionism of the West, who carefully chose which despots to support and which to oppose.
Nobody deserves to die and you are welcome to present one example ofanybody ever suggesting such a thing on this forum
You are the most vociferous of the tiny handful of individuals who have ever supported state terrorism and mass murder.
Christians like you - I've never met one and I hope I never do
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 10 Apr 15 - 07:24 AM

Even better. Because of the entertainment listing, everything anybody ever said about Keith apparently applies to The BBC.

Serves 'em right for commissioning Blackadder 😂😂😂

By the way. No Musket has ever name-called anyone. Our policy (15.5 rev3 review 4/16) is to respond in kind with interest at extortionate rates. Bigots pay double.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Apr 15 - 07:27 AM

Once again you make a case for poverty-stricken Christians, ignoring the Muslims and other religions being exploited and terrorised

No.
I started a thread about the Muslims suffering in Syria when no-one else wanted to discuss it.
Your only contribution was to use it to attack Britain.

I have highlighted the plight of the Palestinians in the refugee camp near Damascus which no-one else wants to talk about. (I do not mean just the brief reference I made to Yarmouk here.)

I started this thread because the persecution of Christians has reached catastrophic levels in so many places.
To remain silent is to be complicit.
To deny it is worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Apr 15 - 08:17 AM

" started a thread about the Muslims suffering in Syria when no-one else wanted to discuss it."
Nobody has ever declined to discuss it
What we eanted to do is to put in i context of all religions persecution and have consistently pointed out that it is not exclusive to Muslim extremists - this doesn't suit your hate-agenda and you have persistently attempted to confine it to Christians being the victims.
You have never been prepared to discuss it as religious persecution and you never will as you are incapable of accepting that your own claimed religion is historically the greatest persecutor the world has ever experienced
You one took a thread entitled 'Muslim Persecution' and virually single-handedly made it an attack on Muslims (link you to it if you wish).
All religions persecute, given the opportunity - it is their very nature
Accept it or you are a bigot - which we are all aware of anyway.
Take your insults and your bigotry elsewhere if you are incapable of honesty
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Apr 15 - 10:30 AM

Many things go over my head, Musket. It comes with being a Gnome. Very little slips under the radar though :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 10 Apr 15 - 11:23 AM

I'll bear that in mind, Co messiah emeritus with gnomish attributes....

Talking of low... Interesting set of articles recently in many periodicals pointing out that the high number of Christian slaughter needs analysing in the light of two aspects:

Many of those slaughtered are labelled as Christians. You cannot tally the Muslim factor of the oppressors on the same level as the victims being Christians. After all, if they attacked our village (3,400 people) the press would call us Christians yet 30 seem to be practicing and another seven or so turn up at Easter.

The other aspect is that it is being associated with the West that is the important bit. Terrorists on a jihad mission seem to think that normal people care about religion in the same way they do,whereas most people couldn't give a rats arse over here, so oppression and murdering easy targets in Syria, Nigeria etc, they think we would be upset as "brothers" are slaughtered in the same way a few Muslim kids here think along those lines.

Nobody told them it is sadly about the third news story in on a good day, and happening to foreigners. If they think they will provoke a backlash on the basis of us and them, they have been listening to too many irresponsible church leaders doing their dirty work for them by calling innocent bystanders in the wrong place at the wrong time, martyrs.

Religion is an issue, and the response of church leaders, identifying with one side on the supposition the West in general is into "us and them" is fucking disgraceful.

Yeah, let's talk about religious persecution Keith. You'd have normal people classed as on one side of an irrelevant problem, whereas the awful stance of Welby and other apologists for terror just fan the flames, and they know it.

Martyrs... No. Dead people. Live with it. They can't so do it for them from the comfort of your judgemental armchair.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Apr 15 - 01:52 PM

" started a thread about the Muslims suffering in Syria when no-one else wanted to discuss it."
Nobody has ever declined to discuss it

It was not discussed here at all until I started the thread after many months of slaughter.

What you say about the Muslim Persecution thread is a lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 10 Apr 15 - 03:21 PM

Sitting comfortably fuckwit?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Apr 15 - 03:28 PM

Keith - you have no interest in "discussing" anything that you can't use as a platform for your own prejudices.
You started the disgusting "Hom's Horror" thread telling us how terrible it was all those people being shot down - until you were informed that the bullets used by the snipers may have come from Britain, as did some of the armoured cars and riot control equipment - then you flipped and the thread became a damage limitation exercise in order to defend Britain's good name
You even went as far as to suggest that it would be fine to sell Assad equipment if it was only for "riot control) - IE to suppress Syria's Arab Spring protesters, which was what they were then.
Yo took a similar stance when Assad started using chemicals on his people - bad, until it was found that Britain sold him chemicals which could have been used in their manufacture - another damage control exercise.
As far as you seem to be concerned, we should discuss these things on your 'crocodile tears' level and make sure the world knows it is the Muslims at it again.
Here, we have the same situation - lament the poor Christians being slaughtered but please don't mention the slaughtering by Christians and other religious bodies - up on your chair, skirts hoisted up and loud shrieks of "thread drift".
Unless we are able to discuss these subjects in context and point the finger, these discussions become nothing more than pointless handkerchief wringing exercises.
Feel free so say what you wish on these topics, but I do with you would stop trying to censor and manipulate what others have to say - you must have been arned about this at least a dozen times.
Something to get your teeth into - the greatest threat of religious persecution over the last century in Western Europe has come from Christian Churches persecuting Christians, including children in their care, "fallen" girls, pregnant women and homosexuals.
Don't suppose you'd care to comment on that - other than to deny it!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Apr 15 - 03:51 PM

Jim,
.You started the disgusting "Hom's Horror" thread telling us how terrible it was all those people being shot down

Yes I did and it was.
Where were you?
Trying to find ways to blame the West when the slaughter was being done using Russian, Chinese and Iranian weapons.
We do not make ammunition for those things.

I reopened the thread several times but no-one was interested in massacres for which Israel could not be blamed.
One other person started one other thread with the same result.

Once again you try to demonise me by misrepresenting posts from years ago instead of addressing the issues.
This is what you always do when you can not support your agenda.

Me reopening this thread,
Anti-Christian bigots may use offensive posts to get this thread closed.
Please delete the posts instead.

Musket today,
Sitting comfortably fuckwit?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Apr 15 - 05:15 PM

Yes Keith, it seems strange that these people are allowed to use obscenities and curse other members in almost every thread, without any attempt to seriously discuss the issues.

I simply couldn't be bothered with that sort of behaviour, and I'm sure if I did I would soon receive a PM from admin telling me to stop it or be permanently removed from the forum. It's not as if it's one isolated case.
I think "Team Musket" should be banned until it learns how to behave itself in debate.....then it may be possible that we all learn something from our participation here.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 11 Apr 15 - 02:56 AM

Musket would have to be posting "criminal communication" which isn't the case.

However, Akenaton's homophobic trades against gay people is. Add the recent claiming Obama is only where he is because of a need for a token black and similar comments about Clinton the token woman and his claim that equality and opportunities in the army being a liberal plot look tame. At least he is leaving travellers and English people residing in Scotland alone whilst he spins on his circle of bigotry.

You really are a simple old fool with a nasty streak aren't you?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 15 - 03:00 AM

The West, or anybody who gave support to Assad, was to blame - anybody.
Britait did what they did - sold armoured cars, ammunition and riot control equipment to a murderous dictator who they knew to have a record of suppression, torture and murder - at a time when Assad's snipers were using mothers carrying children in arms as target practice, you sneered at the sales as "a few sniper rifles" - very Christian and compassionate, I'm sure!!
When he was discovered to have been sold chemicals capable of manufacturing the weapons he was found using on the Syrian population, your response was "he said he was only using it for peaceful purposes" - Christian trust and understanding, I take it?
Nobody supported the sale of weapons and equipment to murderous regime by anybody - you supported its sale by Britain.
The failure of the UN and later, of the Western Powers, to intervene in the war crimes and atrocities committed by Assad on his people, gave impetus for Isis to take advantage to step in and become the threat is now is - the West fully shares the blame for that rise to power.
Britain allows and encourages the sale weapons to mass murderers, terrorist states and feudal dictators, knowing full well their reputations - that is immoral.
I deplore all sales of weapons to anybody, by anybody - it is an abomination.
When it is done on my behalf it is my duty, as a British citizen, to make my disapproval known - not to defend it on the basis that others do it, as you do.
Wonder what happened to the "Thou Shalt Not Kill" part of the Christian creed - unprofitable an inconvenient to some Christians, it would appear, along with "suffer the little children"
A Christian - you must be joking!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Apr 15 - 05:36 AM

Semantic point on a common misunderstanding:   When Jesus said, as rendered in the AV translation of Luke 18, "Suffer little children to come unto me and forbid them not", the word was used in the old sense of "suffer", meaning "allow"*; nothing to do with "suffering" in the sense of undergoing pain or trouble or other disagreeable experience. All Jesus meant was that people shouldn't try to stop children from approaching him and listening to what he had to tell them; it does not mean that they should be made to undergo anything unpleasant.

A much misunderstood passage which I think it worth elucidating.

≈M≈

*A usage that survived in common use till early C19: cf the poor but dignified Miss Bates in Jane Austen's Emma, when she thinks the apothecary Mr Perry might offer to treat her niece without charge, "But this cannot be suffered, you know. Mr Perry has a family to maintain and is not to be giving away his time."

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Apr 15 - 05:56 AM

I still use the word in that old sense quite frequently. It's us northerners, tha knows. With our dosts, thees and thous too.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Apr 15 - 06:18 AM

I find that of great interest, Steve. I don't think it would still be common linguistic currency here in the effete south! Further drift, re thous & thees &c: My late first wife Valerie came from the Forest of Dean, a Gloucestershire enclave which had bits of surviving dialect of its own in her childhood: she remembered old neighbours who would still say "thee bist" for "you are".

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 15 - 06:40 AM

"the word was used in the old sense of "suffer", meaning "allow"*"
Aware of this Mike - my point being that it doesn't leave a great deal of room for the destruction of hospitals and medical centres housing children, or the use of white phosphorus ("harmless illumination") which burned children s faces to the bone when it was showered down on them in Gaza, both of which this particular 'Christian' has supported on various occasions.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 11 Apr 15 - 09:20 AM

It would appear that many priests and a number of vicars misunderstood the old meaning of 'suffer"

And there was me thinking they abused children for the fun of it..

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Apr 15 - 10:06 AM

both of which this particular 'Christian' has supported on various occasions.
Lie.
(for the record.)

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Apr 15 - 10:12 AM

You were in denial about the white phosphorus, Keith, and you simply didn't have it in you to say that the IDF should not have used white phosphorus in Gaza. You made up stuff about its not being used as a weapon or something, as I recall. Perhaps you'd condemn its use in so many words if IS used it, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Apr 15 - 10:14 AM

white phosphorus ("harmless illumination")

Faked quote, for the record.

Why do you do it Jim?
Lie about things I did not say years ago.
Why can you never just address the current issues?

Because although you want to, you can't.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Apr 15 - 10:17 AM

But you were in denial about it, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Apr 15 - 10:18 AM

Keith, and you simply didn't have it in you to say that the IDF should not have used white phosphorus in Gaza.

I DID say they should not have used it in Gaza.
I said I deplored it.

Why no comments from you about barrel bombs and chemical weapons targeted at civilians in Syria for years now.
Why do none of you people speak out against the abominations there that dwarf anything that ever happened in Gaza?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Apr 15 - 10:23 AM

Why do none of you people speak out against the abominations there that dwarf anything that ever happened in Gaza?

There's no secret to the answer to that question.