BS: Israel Moves in.

Subject: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 03:05 PM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7809959.stm

Peacekeeping I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: bobad
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 03:13 PM

"An Israeli military spokeswoman confirmed the incursion had begun and said the objective was "to destroy the Hamas terror infrastructure in the area of operations".

"We are going to take some of the launch areas used by Hamas," Maj Avital Leibovitch told reporters."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 03:17 PM

Not peacekeeping, Folkiedave, as well you can surmise. Destroying Hamas...finally. Of course, another militant, terrorist group will take Hamas' place, until the Palestinian Arabs decide they really want peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 04:50 PM

"until the Palestinian Arabs decide they really want peace."

I don't pretend to have the answers to this dilemna, but I do recognize an inflammatory bigoted snipe when I read one.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Leadfingers
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 05:00 PM

TOO many Arabs ONLY want Israel wiped off the map !!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 05:20 PM

I think there is equal bigotry on both sides lox

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 05:28 PM

Oh, there is indeed. But the firepower and the ability to use it to destroy many people's lives and property is not so evenly distributed by any means.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 05:34 PM

There is - but on this website I respond to it when I read it expressed.

I don't infer bigotry by association with a viewpoint partially shared by a bigot.

If I did that I would have to accuse everyone on this site of being a bigot as every point of view has at some point been twisted by a bigot to justify their hatred.

So I'm not going to do that.

If I see a biggotted comment and am inclined to do so then I will point it out.

The one I referred to above contains no substance other than bigotry.

Why? because it generalizes about all arabs - rounds them up into an intellectual pen to justify their slaughter.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 05:56 PM

2 things I genuinely don't understand -in the statements on the media we are told of thousands of rockets sent by Hammas into Israel and then we are given a figure of actual Palestnian casualties -I cannot understand why it is reported this way -surely if comparisons have been to be made then report casualtiy against casualty -how many Israelis have died in these rocket attacks -why aren't we told?? Secondly, where is the support of other Arab nations for the people of Palestine?

Regardless of who is right who is wrong who started it or any other viewpoint - this slaughter has to stop now.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: MarkS
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 06:00 PM

Let us all pray for a quick end to hostilities and a peaceful resolution to the conflict.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 06:00 PM

So far, the Israelis are killing 100 Palestinians for every Israeli.
The BBC Canada does a pretty good job of reporting.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Lox
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 06:05 PM

Linda - in answer to your question,

the BBC says 4.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: gnu
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 06:09 PM

Sorry to say this for the umpteeth time.... I know many of you are tired of me saying this...

The rich subjugate the poor.

Palestine... Iraq... Afghanistan... Pakistan... Korea... Sudan... Ivory Coast... Ukraine...

I KNOW I have "left out" some MAJOR trouble spots. But, why go on?

Europe is next with the gas. When they hurt... well... lock and load.

My guess is that nuclear war will warm things up a lot. Pakistan first?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 06:14 PM

I used to be motivated to write killer op/ed pieces which were published whenever I read about something like this which made me angry. Now, I just shake my head and think of the folly of humankind and how stupid the whole thing is and, the fact that it is mostly women, mothers, who wind up the most hopeless with the most to protect while the military (i know there are women in it, too!) do their best to destroy everything. I don't give a damn what countries, what ethnicity, what religion. It is stupid and if I think too much about it, I will cry my heart out and do no good at all.

I will give thanks for peace and lend my will to that of the creator I believe in, but I will also recognise people's free will has a lot to do with it, so I will give thanks they are moved to peace, also. SO mote it be.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: skarpi
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 06:14 PM

Is this the Beginning of the Middle east war ????
How will Iran come into this ?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 06:18 PM

I fucking hope not!!!

But they are the stakes that these impotent fools need to get a rush these days I guess.

(Impotent not important)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: pdq
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 06:19 PM

Iran is already in it.

Hamas and Hezbollah are nothing but extensions of Iran's Muslim extremist government and get their money and weapons from Iran.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: gnu
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 06:45 PM

Where did my last post go? This is at least six posts in a week that went gone.

Kat... "It is stupid and if I think too much about it, I will cry my heart out..."

Yup, it is to cry.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 07:04 PM

Sixty years ago they asked the world to understand and cry for the injustice they suffered. Today they prove they are no better.

Why why has this nation above all other not learned putting people out of their homes and senseless killing of children serves no purpose.

They wonder why people dislike them. This is a sad start to another year of hell for these poor living on their own land.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 07:09 PM

You may not agree with me Lox, but my comment was not a bigoted snipe; it was an observation paraphrasing Golda Meir, "There will be peace when Palestinians love their children more than they hate Israelis" or words to close to that.

But what kind of analysis can one expect from one whose mantra is "Murder is Murder." The law distinguishes between degrees of killing, but Lox knows better.

Lox, as you don't know me, you cannot know that I have had friendly social and business relations with Palestinians in the US from the 1970s until I retired. Most were wonderful, nice, successful people. Most were Christians, but many were Muslim. It's too bad that those they left behind, especially their leadership after Israel left Gaza, did not choose to follow peaceful pursuits, rather than harass (and that is the mildest word I can use) Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 07:11 PM

John, I withdraw my comments, except for "murder is murder", until somebody says something that convinces me that it isn't so.

Good luck.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 07:15 PM

An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.

Until the people are all eyeless and toothless presumably.

Perhaps if people stopped supplying arms it might help.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 07:15 PM

Oh and in equal measure, There will be peace when Israelis love their children more than they hate Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: kendall
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 08:02 PM

This has been going on since the Jews invaded Caanan and claimed the land for themselves. How the hell are we to stop it?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Ed T
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 08:05 PM

" the firepower and the ability to use it to destroy many people's lives and property is not so evenly distributed by any means".

So, when has war, which this seems to be, ever been about matching one side's distructive power (or advantage) with the other sides?

Could it be that some Mudfolks are mixing war up with sport, where rules are set to make a match more fair and interesting for the observer/supporter.

While not pleasent, historically conflict, globally, has been and is about distruction, injury and death. One side normally has an upper hand and prevails, in one way or another...at least temporarily. Sounds callous, but war and conflict is just that.

While I always sympathize with civilians during military conflicts, they are always hit hard. At times, even their own forces use their plight for propaganda.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 08:26 PM

Golda Meir was one of the Zionists from North America and Europe that moved into the Palestinian lands. It was a mistake to ever let them move in, but nothing can be done about it these many years later. The Palestinians will never achieve self-government; the Israelis will never permit it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: skarpi
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 08:29 PM

a long time ago , the nazi killed the jews it was a sad chapter in human history , now is the jews acting like the Nazi did ???
by killing children of the palistine people ?

now notice that I am against all wars , and I know hamas has been
killing people from Isreal , killing makes a killing .

we must stop this right now , I am afraid that only way to make peace is to blow everthing up . and that will happen its only matter of time .

how low can the human race go , how low do we have to go ?
make money , be greedy , by killing others .........

its a sad world that we live in ........   
and I am a shamed for being of that race ..... that behavin .....

what about africa ... the killing , the hunger .... even we Icelanders are trying to build up the water system down there

we have Icelandic people there ABC´s children help we build up schools
tetach the children but still there are people who have to ruin it
just for money , greed and wars .... the people who manufactor weapons need to sell and politics starts wars ...........

I wonder did the US have anything to do to start the war in Balcan
, are they involved in the war in Africa ?
or are the soviet ivolved there or china ? why should they, becouse thay make weapons .....

I am just a little man , who lives in a little country
that never had any army , apart from the viking time history .
we live in peace still ? its hard for me to see little children be killed by people who either abuse them or kill them in war ....
and there is so little that I can do about it , as an Former EMT.

a reaspect for an human live .
its long gone . the meanest pretador in the world is human kind .

as I said long before here on Mudcat , it does not matter if you are african/american, Indian , asian , jewish , Budda, christian or Islam
we should all live in peace , but for century´s some world power
countrys has ropped other ´s of their treasure such as gold, oil dimands and others things, so why should people of those countrys not be angry ?? I may someday go back to school , and then I will learn about the history , and then try to understand all this better .

but enough of this .

all the best Skarpi

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 08:36 PM

Israel moves in - for the final solution?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: artbrooks
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 09:05 PM

Israel moves in for what is almost certainly another futile attempt to obtain security for its citizens, realizing that it faces universal condemnation for doing so, but also realizing that no individual, no nation and no world organization will ever be of any real assistance in this process. Some countries, like the US, will pretend to help - for cynical reasons having more to do with domestic politics than anything else - but Israel, as always, stands alone.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 09:20 PM

I don't see how this could be a good thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 12:54 AM

I am sure that we could blame either side with justification. What I can't comprehend is what Hamas would hope to gain by poking a stick into a hornets nest knowing full well what the response would be. If it is not sheer stupidity it must be suicide or sacrifice of it's people. It is a great shame that the world has allowed this conflict to continue for so many years!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 01:06 AM

War, is indeed ugly! However, when the stated goal of Hamas, Hezbolah, Iran, among others, is to wipe your country off the face of the map, what option is there? By the way, Kat, in Israel women fight along side of the men, in hopes of providing safety for their children. My prayer, is that this does not spread, or pull anyone else into it. As of a late broadcast, aired just before I came on, the Muslim terrorists have been given the 'go ahead' to take action against American 'interests', as well, around the globe.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 04:35 AM

Will the new president of America back the Jews just as every other president did ? we wait to see.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: polaitaly
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 05:42 AM

I will be happy if the new president back the Jews. I will be happier if he stops backing without questions the Israeli government.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 06:08 AM

"There will be peace when Palestinians love their children more than they hate Israelis"

I have been reflecting on this sentence.

I am curious to know if it is accurate or not.

But if it is then lets consider what it means.


When palestinians love their children more than they hate Israelis.


This is an implied threat.


1. It presupposes that conflict between Israelis and Palestinians is grounded in hatred - Note: Palestinians - not Hamas.

2. It spells out that if palestinians persist in military conflict with Israel that their children will die.


It describes a clear policy.


John - thankyou for bringing these words to my attention.

I am astounded that I had never encountered them before.



We are witnessing that policy in action.

A highly organized modern army with the most up to date technology and the financial assistance to sustain it is blowing up schools and hospitals and killing children.


Now either they aren't all that they're cracked up to be or something is wrong with Israeli policy.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 06:13 AM

Oh My God.

Look what a google search brought up ...

Hold on to your stomach

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 06:39 AM

Listening to talk radio each morning before I go to work I hear vitriolic condemnations by both sides, particularly by what I consider are fundamentalists who do not seem to tolerate the existence of the other side.

My belief is that both in Isreal and Palestine the majority of people just want to live their lives - and these are the real victims of the 'dispute'.

With regard to the futility of poking sticks in hornets' nest, surely the strategy if to provoke the hornets so that they swarm, and more people with more sticks rally against the hornets.

The world has become a more dangerous place again

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 06:41 AM

Simple answer is,Israel has no right to be in Palestine. Accept fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 07:01 AM

Where do you suggest relocating Israel to, Mexico, Isle of Wight? Israel/Palestine are not lines on a map, they are nations populated by people who seek self-identity.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 08:08 AM

for cynical reasons having more to do with domestic politics than anything else

Not to sell the products of the American arms industry then?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 08:09 AM

They are a nation dumped on the Palestinians by Britain and America since 1945, are you saying they have a right to the land ?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 08:29 AM

I'm not taking sides - but if you are giving me a history lesson, then maybe Palastina by your argument shouldn't have been imposed on Judah in 135 CE by Rome.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 08:40 AM

Current Israeli policy does look well, more than a bit Herodian.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 08:46 AM

"There will be peace when Palestinians love their children more than they hate Israelis"

I read that as an Israeli threat as well and not as a comment on Palestinian behaviour.

And I was raised in (and thankfully recovering from) White Southern Baptist Conservative household.

The thing is, the balance of resources is not equal and Israel is a bully that for all intents and purposes "is" supported by the US, whether the US wants to admit it or not. Shameful and sickening.

Wouldn't be great if the mothers would rise up en masse to make it stop. Moms around the world, beating the living shit out of their war mongering children from highest to lowest rank. Drag em off home by the ear, tsk tsk at them and stick them in a corner forever.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: number 6
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 08:51 AM

The last time the Israeli IDF was in action in the Gaza was when they were forcibly (in many cases) removing the Jewish settlements from the region.

Crazy world.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: number 6
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 08:52 AM

""There will be peace when Palestinians love their children more than they hate Israelis"

Virginia Tam ... that is a quote form Golda Meir

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 08:58 AM

Israel to Gaza....."Please stop struggling while I strangle you, or I'll cut your head off"

Gaza to Israel...."but what difference will that make?"

Israel to Gaza "all that blood looks really bad on TV!!"

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 09:03 AM

number 6 I have read the thread and I know the origin of the quote. I still think it sounds like a threat.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: number 6
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 09:07 AM

It depends on how you look at it VT ..... I think it could be rephrased to "there will be peace in our world when we start loving our children more than we hate our neigbours"

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 10:19 AM

"""There will be peace when Palestinians love their children more than they hate Israelis""


                   If they had a One-Child policy, they maybe they would love their children more.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: goatfell
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 10:41 AM

these people that are doing this, it's like hitler and the Nazi Party, the jews just want to wipe out the arabs, they believe in killing for killing sake, they don't care about the arabs that live there, the Jews aren't intrested about peace, and so are te people that support them ie some Americans.

so it's about time that the west told the Israelies to stop now or the west shout either put sankstions on Israel.

or are western leaders just cowards and allow this killing to go on, by both sides.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: number 6
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 11:20 AM

Rig .... I remember the population argument you presented about a year ago which I argued against .... well, I have to say I am somewhat convinced ... A Syrian (a medical doctor btw) friend of mine happens to believe the biggest issue with the mideast is over population ...... the old agrarian way of life has become non resourceful for the small family farmer who cannot provide for themselves ... they are now living in a state of continual unemploymnent in in urban overcrowded communities with the population ever expanding ... thus a mass attitude of frustration, evolving to hatred, fanaticism (politically / religiously) fueled on by a hope of never ending hoplessness and despair.

just thought I'd throw this into the pile.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 11:24 AM

I think it could be rephrased to "there will be peace in our world when we start loving our children more than we hate our neigbours"

Ahhh but it was not phrased that way.

In the actual quote, there is accusation and blame that Palestine is at fault. An Israeli implication that Palestine prefers hating Israel to loving it's own children.

There is nothing in that statement that encourages peace or understanding. It is a threat.

We will let you have peace when we are satisfied that you do not hate us. We will stop killing your children when we are satisfied that you do not hate us.

What proof of satisfaction? That Paelstinians move out of the land. Israelis want it and they do not want it polluted by Palestines and their different culture and oh so wrong religion.

That is all it boils down to.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: number 6
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 11:35 AM

I'm aware of Golda's quote not being phrased that way I presented VT .... I just rephrased with a more universal slant to it ... personally, I'm not pointing fingers at any side in this conflict ... I just want to see peace, the world over .... pointing fingers it not the solution ... peace can be only reached with tolerance, understanding, and humanity ... pointing fingers, bringing up the past is not a solution, it just continues the madness.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 11:44 AM

You are right Bill. I am not really taking sides either. Both are in the wrong in ways I cannot comprehend. But I do get miffed about bullies and that is what Israel looks like to me, especially with big brother US standing menacingly in the background.

Maybe it is because I am an American living in UK. When I see my native country in such uncomplimentary light, it hurts me and I feel the need to show that Americans individually are what the world perceives us collectievly to be.

Gonna shrug off that weight now. At least in this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: number 6
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 11:48 AM

Reading some of these threads ... watching the news, reading the news, all one hears are reasons of speculation, one sided solutions, politiks, religion, the official stand of the U.S. government, the official stand of the France, Iran's official stand .... all I see is finger pointing, hatred, the loss of lives and madness ..... I dunno.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: number 6
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 11:50 AM

"Gonna shrug off that weight now. At least in this thread."

good one .... me too VT

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 11:55 AM

There will be peace in the Middle East when the Israeli government loves Israeli children more than it loves subjugating other peoples and taking their land by conquest.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: goatfell
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 12:05 PM

i agree

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 12:19 PM

Interestingly, just a couple of threads away as I post, is a thread about an IRA hunger striker.

I'm not terribly pro-IRA - indeed I'm rather anti-IRA - but it moved me to wonder whether IRA-like tactics including hunger strikes might gain Gazans their freedom from Israel - gain them control of their own borders, their own infrastructure, and permit their economy to sustain them better than it is now permitted to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 12:26 PM

Why would hunger strikes help? One more dead Palestinian is of no consequence to the Israeli government.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 12:30 PM

This may not be the thread for this but gonna say it anyway. While I don't condone some IRA tactics, I fully understand why they were pressed into some of them.

Another group of people oppressed and backed into a corner by a big mucking bully.

I am always gonna go with the underdog. Cannot help it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 12:42 PM

Golda Meir was an American citizen (family from the Ukraine) who supported Zionism and became a leader in the Israeli resettlement. She moved with her husband to the Palestinian area in 1921. Periodically she returned to raise money and agitate for Zionism. In 1948 she was a signator on the Israeli declaration of independence, and later rose to be prime minister.

Always a Zionist, and supported of Israeli domination in the Palestinian region, she helped institute policies that guaranteed conflict that will continue for many years to come.

Now it is the Palestinian Muslims and Christians who need to replace their homeland of more that 1000 years. Israel will never permit the existence of a truly independent Palestinian state.

I see no hope for the Palestinians; they face dispersal to unfamiliar lands or acceptance of political and social dominance by the Israeli theocratic state.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: kendall
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 12:47 PM

How many years has mankind gone without a war being waged somewhere? How many years of peace has mankind enjoyed? Do the math. War is the natural state of being. The strong devour the weak, and it has always been so. We are not capable of governing ourselves. The only creatures on earth that engage in warfare are humans and Chimpanzees. We share 98% of our genes.Go figure.
Cynical? perhaps. Realistic? Yes.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 12:47 PM

Indeed, VT - but why did IRA terrorism and suicides work for the IRA but seem hopeless for Gazans? CarolC has come up with one answer. If one extrapolates, England failed in Ireland because it hesitated. It was not prepared to render all Irish life extinct in the face of non-compliance. On the face of it it seems that that is exactly what Israel is prepared to do in Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Fife
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 01:03 PM

England didn't fail in Ireland Richard because they hesitated. They accepted they could never defeat the Provisional Irish Republican Army, there is a big difference. That is why they asked to speak to their leaders to resolve THEIR problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 01:05 PM

I agree with that Richard and with Kendall's views
Our govt was instrumental in robbing the Palestinians and bringing the Israeli state into being, yet only 500 protested Israel's action in London today. We are worse than animals, we rationalise the murder of children, then turn our faces away.....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 01:12 PM

Q wrote "they face dispersal to unfamiliar lands"
Much of Canada was settled by refugees of some type. They have prospered here and produced generations of very valued citizens whom we would be much the worse of without. In Gaza there are still refugees living in camps after 60 years with descendants of five or more generations.
Why does the world refuse to absorb them? Would the culture of neighbouring Arab lands be that unfamiliar? I offer no excuse for Isreal but the actions of other countries refusing to help these poor souls should be viewed with contempt as well.
Enough blame and hate! It's time to find a solution and overthrowing Isreal has no potential in these peoples lifetime!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 01:19 PM

Most in North America, as in many other parts of the world, enjoy prosperity today because they displaced other peoples from lands they now enjoy, killed them with superior arms, reducing them to living in reserves....somewhat like todays refuge camps, an marginilizing their success, livlihood and culture to this very day.

"Many people love in themselves what they hate in others"
E. F. Schumacher

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 01:22 PM

"Few people can be happy unless they hate some other person, nation, or creed~   Bertrand Russell

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 01:31 PM

So, Fife, why was England unable to "defeat the Provisional Irish Republican Army" while Israel can defeat Hamas and has at least once defeated although not entirely exterminated the Hezbollah?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Amos
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 01:32 PM

I don't understand either side of this apparently two-sided conflict, which has been in play all my long life.

I can only surmise, therefore, that the two-sided picture is false, and that a third, and possibly a fourth and fifth party, are energetically and continuously involved in perpetuating the hatred.

I have known young people from Israel and SYria, each firmly raised in their cultures, who came to America and lived in complete harmony with each other.

IF the whole concepts of "racial types" and "mandatory cultural beliefs" were recognized as the horseshit they are, things might move along; but as long as some voices are perpetually using these phony categories to insist on us-versus-them, under-versus-over, us-right-them-wrong dichotomies, which are complete distortions of the ground truth involved, the tribulations will persist.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 01:40 PM

"If one extrapolates, England failed in Ireland because it hesitated. It was not prepared to render all Irish life extinct in the face of non-compliance. On the face of it it seems that that is exactly what Israel is prepared to do in Gaza."

Aye, point well made.

England had a respectable facade to maintain...

And we're still living under those utterly false cultural illusions today... While of course still participating in the same old bollox (check Blair and the plagiarised Phd. thesis fiasco!).

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Fife
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 02:19 PM

They are not there yet Richard, I imagine there is more to come !

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: artbrooks
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 02:34 PM

Folkiedave: Israel doesn't really purchase US military equipment out of its own budget. Rather, the US gives Israel an "aid package" of what amounts to credits, spendable only in the US. They cannot buy a French or Swedish jet with it, for example, even if they can get better value. Almost all military aid programs are actually ways to subsidize domestic industry.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: bubblyrat
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 02:59 PM

I guess Israel will give "their" land back to the Palestinians on the same day that America returns the land they stole,swindled,and took by brute force and terror from the original inhabitants ( I believe they were called "Red Indians" ).In the meantime, keep your eyes on Iran, and never forget that Armageddon is a real place ......in Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 03:03 PM

The Palestinians will consider themselves very lucky if Israel will simply allow them to remain on the land they currently have. Of course, the government of Israel has no intention of letting them do that.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 03:24 PM

Well CarolC, if Isreal totally withdraws to within its pre 1967 borders and agrees to remain there by treaty with the Palestinians will that resolve the problem? Would the Palestinians in turn promise
never again to launch missles at Isreal? Would the other Arab states agree to this as well? At some point in time claims of land entitlement must be forgotten, at least long after the people who lived on those lands are dead and gone. If it would bring peace I think it is time to start. However I fear that mutiual hatred will prevail.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 03:38 PM

How in the name of sanity do you reach anyone, let alone any group that has been indoctrinated into national or religious elitism?

One would think in this day and age, where so much information is available and friendships are being forged across cultures and across the globe that we would be witnessing an evolution of collective human psyche.

Will we always be barbarians?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 03:40 PM

You may be right Fife. Incidentally, does your name refer to a musical instrument and will you be joining and seeing us upstairs?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Fife
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 03:59 PM

My late father was a well known respected player, I on the otherhand try !

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 04:34 PM

Comparison with IRA is false.
The political goal of IRA was unification of the 6 northern counties with the Irish Republic.
That goal could, and can be, achieved by persuading 51% to vote for it.
The Nationalists have now become the majority population in the North.
Soon they will be the majority of voting age.
Then a united Ireland will be achieved.
All the IRA violence achieved nothing but decades of death and poverty.
It did not bring unification one day sooner.

Sinn Fein have achieved considerable electoral success since ending the violence.
They could have done that 30 years ago.
The violent fools.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 04:54 PM

Er - Keith, it was violence that removed the English from the other counties was it not? An act of armed insurrection in and around 1922 if I recollect. It was violence that got the English to talk to the IRA leaders, was it not?

Why does it work in Ireland and not the Eastern Mediterranean?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 05:04 PM

Read the White Paper of 1939, the british placed themselves at odds with Israel. To make things worse, the situation in europe demanded a new Home for the Jews, as european Jewry had nowhere to run to. While the british were making "peace" with the germans, they were declaring war against all of Israel. And even after the german intentions became apparent and britain sank into the depths of war, the british still refused to grant Jewish refugees entrance into their Homeland.

The british sided with the arabs in Israel, that were led by the mufti of Jerusalem. It is known that this leader had ties with the germans, and that he urged hitler to kill all the Jews, pleading as well with the germans and other arab leaders to help him massacre all the Jews of the middle east.

When the british sided with these people, it became apparent to everyone that they were the enemy of Israel. Therefore the Jews had to wage war against the british.

But Jews have always been a weak and divided people, since they have spread themselves across borders and have lived as minorities amongst the vast majorities. And Jews have consistently betrayed themselves, since they have sworn their loyalties to nearly every foreign land.

If all the Jews lived in one country, then at least they could defend themselves by defending that country. But the Jews have been scattered upon the face of the earth, and thus they have betrayed themselves with every ounce of their strength.

The british policy was almost as destructive as that of the nazis, but it was the germans that did the actual killing. Therefore the germans were Israel's number one enemy. Since england was fighting germany, the Jews were faced with a big dilemma.

By fighting england, they would be helping germany, but by fighting germany they would be helping the british. Yet the Jews of Israel were weak anyhow, and whatever they did they wouldn't have had much of an affect on the greater conflict. Therefore they were best off joining the british in order gain a foothold into europe so that they could rescue their people, and then defy the british so they could attempt to bring their people to Israel. And in Israel they were best suited with a policy of defiance to the british, because england had enough problems to deal with that it should have to invest too much effort in Israel. This gave Israel an advantage, because the british didn't have the strength to rule over Israel.

But the Jews are also foolishly stubborn, in that they stick to their ideals and fight for their opinions even when their thoughts have no merit. And the Jews preserve their loyalties and keep their promises even when this is treacherous to themselves and traitorous to each other. So most of the Jews in Israel and especially in America treated the british as friends and the arabs as equals. Therefore they cooperated with the british even against their own people, leaving their brothers to die and betraying their own neighbors.

Although there were some that characterized the will of Israel, and this sentiment was embodied by the Irgun and Lehi, and sometimes aided by the Haganah. During and after the war (WWII) these people fought to save their brothers in europe and return them to safety in Israel. And after the war, they fought the british, contributing greatly to the liberation of Israel.

Yet these groups were like the Maccabees of earlier days, for while they succeeded in their intentions, they have failed in their success, because the british occupation has been replaced with that of the Americans. They knew Israel had to be liberated, but they did not understand what for.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: skipy
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 05:43 PM

If your next door Neigborough kept throwing bricks into your garden injuring you family or even killing them, then you would get pissed off & after a while throw the lot back & more! This is what is happening!
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 05:56 PM

Yes skipy, and if those living in your garden on your property were doing it, you would get pissed off too.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 06:02 PM

If your neighbor took your groves and pastures and locked you into a shanty, dependent on aid agencies for bread, in frustration you would throw bricks or whatever at the 'neighbor'; the garden that was yours has been taken from you.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: artbrooks
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 06:13 PM

Guest,Alan: cut and pasting information from the Etzel/Irgun website is fine, as long as you are aware that Irgun and the Stern Gang (Lehi) perpetrated most of the atrocities (such as the King David Hotel bombing and the De'ir Yassin massacre) that are pointed to 60 years later as examples of why the Palestinians can never trust the Israelis and which were condemned at the time by both the Haganah and the World Zionist Congress.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 06:18 PM

This must be one of the tests Joe Biden was talking about.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 06:19 PM

I doubt there is a month goes by we aren't subjected to a film or programme recalling what was done against the Jews, yes they want our tears and understanding, but how can a people who suffered go out and do the same to other people ? Maybe they feel happy enough to do so knowing that America will back them, then again many feel they own America.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: bobad
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 07:05 PM

"how can a people who suffered go out and do the same to other people?"

Right guest Alan, the "Jews" launched thousands of rockets at the Nazi government of Germany, that's why they were murdered by them. If you're trying to find analogies try using appropriate ones.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 07:26 PM

In most civilised countries, a certain degree of violence is considered acceptable in one's defence. This level is usually referred to as "reasonable force", and is generally defined as force lesser than, or equal to, that to which one is responding.

I do not believe that you could make a case for responding to a slap in the face, by beating your attacker to death with a baseball bat, much less by shooting him.

This is precisely what Israel is doing.

In addition (and this does seem to have been missed by almost every commentator), Hamas, as a party, is the legitimately elected government of Palestine, and this means that Israel has initiated an undeclared WAR against a neighbouring sovereign state, using the massive military advantage gifted to them by a succession of over indulgent US governments.

There does not seem to be much strong evidence that the ruling Hamas Party is behind the rocket attacks, but rather that it is a splinter group of militants.

Maybe the way forward is for Israel and Palestine to co-operate in removing the culprits, rather that continuing the hate campaign they seem to be locked into.

A good start would be for Israel to offer the prospect of opening the border, and allowing trade, in return for co-operation in defusing the rocket threat. Gaza is nothing more than a very dangerous prison camp at the moment.

UN please note.

One last thought. For God's sake stop Tony Bloody Blair from sticking his big nose in, or this will go on for decades more.

Don T

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 07:52 PM

bobad, I imagine they will get their just rewards.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Haruo
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 08:18 PM

This morning at Fremont Baptist, my wife and I did the "Special Music"; after singing the Chinese New Year hymn "The Grace of God Unbounded Is" (MIDI), we sang Peter Yarrow's Hanukkah song "Light One Candle", dedicating it in particular to our sisters and brothers in the Gaza Baptist Church, who, as my wife put it, are having a particularly unpleasant weekend.

Haruo

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 08:43 PM

"This level is usually referred to as "reasonable force", and is generally defined as force lesser than, or equal to, that to which one is responding."

Which is where the "eye for an eye" principle came in. What Israel is doing in Gaza is in clear breach of this.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 09:01 PM

That last one (08:43 PM ) was mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: bobad
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 09:12 PM

The Israelis tried politely asking Hamas to refrain from launching missiles into Israel but that tactic turned out to not be effective.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 09:14 PM

This is not true. The Israelis are not punishing Gazans for 12 dead Israelis. They are implementing a military operation to stop further rocket launches, or more, according to whatever your preferences or speculations may be. The damage and human suffering must be weighed against the goals, stated or real, not against the number of previously killed Israelis.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 10:19 PM

Quebec has a separatist party with a goal to eventually split off from Canada and start their own nation. They don't shoot rockets into Ontario and try to kill people to try and accomplish this - as if somehow this strategy would win sympathy of intelligent people? That's the problem - we're all stupid. It appears that most of the world thinks Hamas should be allowed to send rockets into Israel anytime they want- that's perfectly fine. Somehow this strategy is Kosher for all Jew haters. What's really to worry about a few dead and terrified Jews?
There is a lot more than this than just Hamas and Gaza trouble- it is the goal of the Jihadists dream for a renewal of a complete fundamentalist Islamic Middle East- no room for Jews, weterners or other occupiers- code word for anyone except Arab Islamists. The children are being raised to grow up and become dead martyrs for their cause. This is the reality of what Israel and what Jews are facing. Complete lunacy.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 10:25 PM

Sorry bobad I was referring to the eye for an eye subject, not your comment.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 02:23 AM

Richard Bridge, no.
I do not agree with your interpretation.
This is not the place to discuss it though.

The comparisons in this thread to IRA were probably referring to the recent troubles, where the insurrection was a chosen alternative to the democratic process.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Ed T
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 06:15 AM

Just wondering:
911 had about 3,000 deaths and two buoilkdings distroyed.
Was the response in Iraq and Afganistan, and the impact on civilians proportional?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Ed T
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 06:29 AM

Sorry about the typo, meant buildings.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 06:32 AM

CarolC,

War is horrible, but even the Palestinians ( as opposed to Gazans) have said that Hamas is responsible.

"There will be peace in the Middle East when the Israeli government loves Israeli children more than it loves subjugating other peoples and taking their land by conquest. "


Yet they do love their children( - and all humans who are not trying to kill them far) more than they want land or the subjugation of others. Please see the Charter of Hamas, and the constitution of Israel. Look at how many Moslims are in Israel, and how many Jews are permitted in the Arab Moslim nations. Israel has traded land for a chance a security that Hamas has denied them.

It is Hamas and the Gazans that elected them that chose to smuggle in rockets ( that could only be used to attack the Israeli civilian population) instead of smuggling in equal mass of food and medicines.


If I spend my money on musical instruments instead of food, can I fairly blame YOU when I am hungry?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 07:23 AM

It's as well to remember that when Hamas was established in 1987 it was assisted by the Israeli government, which saw it as a way of drawing support from Al Fatah. (Here's an article from The American Conservative which deals with this - How Israel helped to create Hamas - I picked that source to avoid any kneejerk assumptions about this being a liberal twisting of the facts.)

Here's a taster:

Hamas first emerged in 1987. It was formed from various charities based in the Palestinian territories with links to the Muslim Brotherhood, the Islamist movement born in Egypt in the 1920s from which many of today's radical Islamic sects, including al-Qaeda, have sprung. Israel allowed these Islamic charities to gain strength and influence in Palestinian areas, hoping that they would counter the influence of secular Palestinian resistance movements.

Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, the spiritual leader of Hamas until his death by Israeli air strike in 2004, formed Hamas as the military wing of his group the Islamic Association, which was licensed by Israel 10 years earlier. During that period, when there was open conflict between Israeli forces and Palestinian nationalists, Israeli officials gave the nod to and even indirectly funded the establishment of Islamic societies in the West Bank and Gaza that might weaken the Palestine Liberation Organization.

Martha Kessler, a senior analyst for the CIA, has said, "[W]e saw Israel cultivate Islam as a counterweight to Palestinian nationalism." The very Islamic groups "cultivated" by Israel in the 1970s became Hamas in the 1980s, which went on to become Israel's biggest nightmare in the 1990s. It remains so today."

Of course the assumption that this was a misjudgment can be questioned. The overall effect of Hamas on Palestinian hopes has been pretty disastrous, and it seems quite possible that this longterm strategy may have been just what was intended by some of those responsible for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Ruth Bibby
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 08:15 AM

Israel claims that it is acting in the interests of its citizens and that it is just defending itself, but if that was the real motivation of the Israeli government it would stop the decades-long oppression of the Palestinian people, not make the situation even worse. That brutal oppression is what has made ordinary Palestinian people so desperate and angry that they will turn to violence and support groups like Hamas - they think that they have nothing else; they don't see any government making any real effort to challenge the Israeli government over its illegal actions.

I'm sure that if what happens to the Palestinians happened to us, some of us would be firing rockets at the country that did it too. I don't think that Iraeli and Palestinian violence are the same - the two come from very different places, have different motivatons. Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank go through horrendous things every day at the hands of the Israeli government and see no end in sight, whereas Israelis live pretty much like we do.

If the Israeli government wants to stop the violence coming from Palestine then it should stop treating the Palestinians as if they are less than human, and the Israeli government knows that. The fact that the Israeli government has the full backing of the Bush administration in this matter speaks volumes.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Haruo
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 08:18 AM

Shades of US cultivation of the Taliban as a counterweight to the Soviets, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 08:40 AM

OK, I will add to my last post that some Israelis do not live 'pretty much like we do' in that they have rockets fired at them and some of them are killed by them. I see these people as victims of the Israeli government's actions just as the Palestinians are. I do not support rocket fire at Israeli civilians, but I think that there is a good chance that there wouldn't be any rocket fire at Israeli citizens if the Israeli goverment stopped its brutal occupation/blockade of land that belongs to Palestine under international law.

My point was that most Israelis do live like we do and all Israelis have access to medical care, education, water supplies, etc., unlike Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Ruth Bibby
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 08:59 AM

Haruo, were you responding to my post? I was thinking along the lines of the "war on terror." Bush tried to justify the invasion of Iraq by framing it as a defensive action, which is also how Israel is claiming to be justified in its actions in Gaza. I don't think that that claim could be further from the truth in either situation. Israel and the US are alligned as part of the "war on terror," but in fact the military actions of both create injustice and anger and so create more terrorism, not less. Like Israel, the US is currently occupying land that it has no right, legal or otherwise, to occupy.

Oh, and that last post was mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: number 6
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 09:05 AM

"Like Israel, the US is currently occupying land that it has no right, legal or otherwise, to occupy."

do you mean Texas ???    :)


biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,GUEST 1
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 09:26 AM

"I think it could be rephrased to "there will be peace in our world when we start loving our children more than we hate our neigbours"

Phrased like that, it's quite acceptable. Problem is, Meir didn't put it like that, she made it clear that according to her everything was the fault of the Palestinians - they bring death on themselves - as a people (sounds chillingly familiar).

Guest.lox - you are on the ball with your observations about Meir's comment, but left out that it also presupposes that al the hate is on one side and there are no Israelis who hate palestinians or ever tried to run them out of their homes and farms.

And for those who defend the quote by saying "well, that's just what Meir said" - WTF? Where's the logic in that? And the REAL question is 'do you agree with her or not'? If you quote her uncritically, presumably you do.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 09:34 AM

And New Mexico, Arizona, California, The Paha Sapa, Guantanamo............

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: number 6
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 09:43 AM

... yeah the list goes on Greg F. ..... Texas, they did take by force though.

in regards to the statement ... ""I think it could be rephrased to "there will be peace in our world when we start loving our children more than we hate our neigbours"

Yup ... those are my words, not Meirs's ... I really don't give a rat's ass what she said,. What she said is meaningless, it was years ago, she's dead and gone, it's all in the past ... just like "remember the Alamo" is meaningless.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Haruo
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 10:38 AM

Actually, no, Ruth, I was working off of McGrath's post about Israel's role in the early support of Hamas as a counterforce against Arafat's and others' secular Palestinian nationalist movements.

Haruo

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 11:19 AM

Damn! Going to have to agree with DonT.

Er - Heric - WTF? You argue that it is just and proportionate for an army to invade a country and kill hundreds because an extremist minority there attack your country and hill twelve - and that this is more justified than for an army to kill hundreds out of a population from which some have killed twelve? The invasion itself justifies the killing of hundreds?

I must be missing part of your logic, I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 11:44 AM

Guest wrote: "I do not support rocket fire at Israeli civilians, but I think that there is a good chance that there wouldn't be any rocket fire at Israeli citizens if the Israeli goverment stopped its brutal occupation/blockade of land that belongs to Palestine under international law"

The Israeli's left Gaza to the Palestinians. What they got in return was regular rocket fire and Hamas rhetoric calling for Israel's complete destruction. The Gazan's need and demand supplies from Israel and then Hamas sends rockets as their thank you note. They constantly bite the hand that is required to feed them. Seems kind of counter productive don't you think?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 11:48 AM

"The Israeli's left Gaza to the Palestinians" Catch yourself on man, the Jews STOLE the bloody land in the first place, not hard to see where you come from. Go biol your head of something.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: ard mhacha
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 01:02 PM

On todays BBC News[3pm]an ex-Jewish Air Force Captain Shapiro was strong in his condemnation of the Israeli Foreign Minister.
Captain Shapiro stated that he lived close by the Gaza Strip and he was of the opinion that the Israeli over-reaction will achieve nothing, he went on to say that it would make matters worse, also he equated Israels response as a war crime.
This statement by Capt Shapiro was in direct contrast to the lady Foreign Minister who gave a near perfect impression of a nazi propaganda Minister.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: heric
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 01:17 PM

Yes, Richard, you missed the main point probably because it was too abbreviated. I never said anything was just or even proportionate – this is a problem far beyond me. I only pointed out that it is incorrect to suggest or imply, even by contrasts or opposites, that if the Israelis suffered twelve dead, they gain the right to kill "only" 1 or 12 or 24 or 36 Gazans. If you start with that premise, you'll go off on a tangent.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 01:28 PM

Sara Roy, a Senior Research Scholar at the Center for Middle Eastern Studies at Harvard University, discusses the economic reality in Gaza and the West Bank and its effect on Palestinian behavior...

http://fora.tv/2008/10/14/Sara_Roy_Beyond_Occupation

Dr. Roy explodes the myth that Israel pulling the settlers and troops out of Gaza ended Israel's imprisonment of the people of Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 01:39 PM

Sorry, Heric, but what is your point? Is it that it is not permissible to kill 300 in revenge for 12, but it is permissible to invade and that if that kills 300 then it is all right? Or to kill 300 to stop anyone killing another 12, or what?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: heric
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 01:41 PM

That what can be justified in a world with wars should be judged on the objectives and their feasibility.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Haruo
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 02:33 PM

"That what can be justified in a world with wars should be judged on the objectives and their feasibility." (heric)

That's about as straightforward a rewording of "Might Makes Right" as I've seen in a while. But it begs the question. And of course it equally and oppositely justifies whatever Hamas has done, too. And it's such an efficient way of saving on ethics. ;-(

Haruo

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: artbrooks
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 02:36 PM

Texas? No, not really. Texas defeated Mexico (which had won independence from Spain about 15 years earlier) in a revolution of its own in 1836. Many, perhaps most, of the participants on the Texian side were immigrants from the US, but many (including a number of those who died in the Alamo) were Spanish. Guantanamo? No, not at all. The US enclave at Guantanamo Bay is held under a lease - the validity of which is disputed by the current Cuban government, of course. New Mexico, Arizona and California? Yes, probably. These areas were taken by the US in the War with Mexico in 1846-1848 and ceded to the US in the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo...kinda like Quebec, eh? The Paha Sapa? No more so than any other region seized from the Indians in violation of a valid treaty.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: heric
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 02:41 PM

Yes good point on feasibility implying that might makes right but plug all your ethical arguments into objectives and human costs, not into retribution measures. When you guys have the ethics worked out I'll be glad to learn.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: JedMarum
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 02:48 PM

I join in Mark's prayer "for a quick end to hostilities and a peaceful resolution to the conflict" but I would substitute "FINAL" for the word "QUICK."

Negotiating a peace has, for the last 60 years only dragged out the fight. Better to get this thing decided. Let one side win and the other loose.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: number 6
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 03:03 PM

Texas ... well Art, when you look at it Texas was Mexican territory literally taken over by the U.S. who stratigically promoted immigration to that Mexican territory ... sure, some Mexicans died fighting along side those immigrants from the U.S. but a lot of Mexicans died fightng to retain that territory which was legally and rightfully theirs.

It's a crazy world ... but why look back.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: artbrooks
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 03:22 PM

Well, I didn't bring it up, but you really should read a little history. Texas/Tejas was an separate entity under Spanish rule, but the new Mexican government incorporated it into the next state south (Coajila) and the state capitol was moved south about 500 miles when Mexico gained its independence. Immigration from the US was encouraged, because very few Mexicans wanted to move to the far frontier. Most of the agreements with immigrants were abrogated in 1830, which is what eventually led to the Texas War of Independence. Texas was incorporated into the US about 10 years after its war with Mexico, and it was the failure of the US and Mexico to agree on its southern boundary which precipitated the Mexican-American War.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: number 6
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 03:34 PM

hey art .... after the Mexican War of Independance Tejas became part of the mew country of Mexico ... I think the guys below in that link would argue with you that Texas is actually now U.S. occupied Mexico ..

we want Tejas given back to it's rightful owners !


biLL   :)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: pdq
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 03:46 PM

artbrooks...you are correct about Texas but wrong about California.

Californians, who were mostly Americans Indians, were oppressed by the Spanish and could do little about it. When the Spanish allowed Mexico to have it's freedom in 1821, the Californians wanted nothing to do with the corrupt and incompetent Mexican government. California eventually declared independence and applied to the US for statehood.
The Texas Republic was actually refused statehood the first try and had to apply a second time.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 05:05 PM

The earliest recorded history of the area is the Bible. (No, I don't believe everything in it.) One of the earliest recorded fights over that land was the Battle of Jerhico. The Bible says that the Jews won but it seems the fight continues after thousands and thousands of years. It is time to put a desire for peace above a desire for lost land or revenge or this will never end! Even on this thread people seem to take sides on who stole the land from who. Forget the past and move forward with a different outlook or this will never end. As noted earlier in this thread the Bible names another battle there that has yet to be fought. Lets hope that never comes to pass!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 06:39 PM

Forget the past and move forward with a different outlook or this will never end.

William Fauklner put it more realistically "The past is never dead. It's not even past." And the fact that Obama is fond of that quote is perhaps a hopeful sign that he isn't wedded to a Year Zero fantasy.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 07:27 PM

It's not about the past for the Palestinians. It's about whether or not they will be allowed to remain living in the land of their ancestors, and whether or not, if they do remain their, they will be allowed to have any rights, and be allowed to live as human beings.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 08:09 PM

Well how many of us are allowed to remain living in the land of our ancestors? My own people were kicked off their land and forced to be refugees to a foreign shore 175 years ago. I don't dedicate my life to killing descendants of those who did the deed. The big problem as I see it is that neighbouring countries refuse to absorb these poor souls. To leave people in refugee camps for 60 years is a crime in its own right. Isreal will continue to exist, but it should be within its pre 1967 territory. The west bank and Gaza Strip could be aided internationally and perhaps would be if the people accepted peace. The neighbouring countries could absorb any overflow into a culture similar to their own. Every damn bannana republic in the middle east is using these people as pawns! Without education other than poisoning the minds of the people the religious leaders are grinding their own ax also. As long as people call for revenge,and revenge again, another eye for another eye, this can never end. The priority is to make it end; not right every wrong committed by both sides over thousands of years!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: JedMarum
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 08:31 PM

You nailed it Sandy.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: kendall
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 08:55 PM

If the UN suddenly took the state of Maine and gave it to, say Russia, or some other enemy, you can bet I would be pissed!And, I would never accept it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: number 6
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 09:04 PM

Yes ... right on Sandy !

"The Past is a foreign country: they do things differently there."

the opening sentence from the novel The Go Between by by L.P.Hartley

I have always liked that line and as I say, move on from the past, the future is about getting to know and understand better.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 12:08 AM

If we were currently being kicked off the land of our ancestors, I think we would all fight it. Hell, even if we were being kicked off the land our ancestors stole from the indigenous peoples (in the case of those of us who live in such places), we would fight that, too. All of us.

It's not about whether or not their ancestors got kicked out of their lands. It's about the people who are there now who are currently being kicked off their lands. And anyone who says they wouldn't fight the kind of treatment the Palestinians are receiving at the hands of the Israeli government is a liar.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 03:51 AM

Maybe in a few years time we will see television programmes, films and books called "The Diary of Anne in Gaza".

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 07:22 AM

If the UN suddenly took the state of Maine and gave it to, say Russia, or some other enemy, you can bet I would be pissed!And, I would never accept it.

Then why don't you go back to the land of your ancestors and return Maine to the Native Americans from whom it was stolen?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: number 6
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 08:19 AM

One of the tragedies in the Palestenian issue is why hasn't the international community (and yes that includes neigbouring mid-east countries) opened their immigration doors (en mass) to the Palestinians. This would certainly allow them to escape their hell hole of an existance. I do think many, many would take on such an opportunity.

I have met and worked with here in Canada (and some are currently good friends) Jordanians, Iranians, Syrians, Lebanese but I have never met any Palestinians.

Can anyone here provide any insight to this as to why?

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: number 6
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 08:39 AM

clarification ... "I do think many, many would take on such an opportunity." .... I meant Palestinians would take the opportunity to immigrate.

BTW .... in regards to this Israeli / Palestinian issue ... in recent separate discussions with a Syrian and Jordanian .. both have replied in some retrospect that the Palestinians are caught in between a rock and a hard place ... the Hamas and Israel .... both have nothing good at all to say about the Hamas ... basically they felt they are thugs, who reign way to harshly and terrorize their own people ... both implied that they understand Israel's stance on self defence but do admit that it is heavy handed in responding .... the Jordanian blames the U.S. for most of the conflict. ... just posting this to provide a non news network mid-eastern view of what the hell is going on.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Wolfgang
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 09:01 AM

The Golda Meir quote is a bit disputed and turns up in various forms, but the variants quoted here are all wrong in a vital point. If one knows Meir and history, it is very obvious she never would have phrased it that way:

Meir talks about Arabs, not Palestinians.

In her mind, there were no Palestinians as a distinct nation (ethnic group), but only Arabs living in Syria, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon (and Israel, of course). Palestinians (and Palestine) for her were only an Arab propaganda invention.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: pdq
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 10:19 AM

"Meir talks about Arabs, not Palestinians.

In her mind, there were no Palestinians as a distinct nation (ethnic group), but only Arabs living in Syria, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon (and Israel, of course). Palestinians (and Palestine) for her were only an Arab propaganda invention.

And, on that point, she was correct. After Islam was established, the Arabs sent their people into most of their known world to defeat their enemies, take their land, and spread Islam.

Spain (and much of southern Europ)e were victims, not just the Jewish people who have owned the Holy Land (aka: Palistine) for thousands of years.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardebruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 10:49 AM

"but it should be within its pre 1967 territory"

Why 1967? Because that was when the Arab nations lost the most territory?

WHy not 1948? or 1923? Or even 1921, before TransJordan was broken off as the Arab Moslim Homeland???


http://www.unitedjerusalem.com/Graphics/Maps/PartitionforTransJordan.asp


Why should Israel accept the loss of Jeruiselum, which thay had no access to before 1967 ( when under Arab control) and which the Arabs have had access to since then under Israeli control?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: kendall
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 10:59 AM

> Ham, what's your point? I had nothing to do with what others did to the natives. All I know is, I was born here and have lived here all my life, (Up until now). If you know your history, you know that the natives fought like hell to repel the invaders, as they damn well had every right to.One of my ancestors was killed by a white man while defending an Indian.

Now, some of my ancestors came from Scandinavia, others from France and still others from England. Which place should I choose to "go back to" ?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 11:52 AM

There is no reason for the world community to take in all of the Palestinians who are currently living in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem. There is no reason why they shouldn't stay right where they are and be allowed to live in freedom. What is being done to them is a crime, and it's this crime that the world community should be working to stop, not the ability of the Palestinians to continue to be Palestinians. Once the last Palestinian is gone, Israel will have successfully committed a total genocide of an entire people.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: kendall
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 12:20 PM

When a people are threatened, they will do anything they have to to avoid being wiped out. When the US government adopted a plan to eradicate the plains Indians they fought back with barbaric methods. We did the same thing in WW2 with the atom bomb, and Israel is doing it to the Arabs.

Natural selection in action. Survival of the fittest if you will.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: pdq
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 01:05 PM

Let's see...a man drags a girl into the bushes at knife point and rapes her. Total time of crime: ten minutes.

When the perp is convicted, he gets ten years in prison.

His lawyer screams that the sentence is disproportionate.

What does he expect, ten minutes in prison?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 01:22 PM

That argument about people being threatened is much more accurate when applied to the Palestinian response to their total subjugation, ethnic cleansing, and slow starvation at the hands of the Israeli government. The Palestinians have as much right to defend themselves as anyone else in the world. Except in the minds of the people who refuse to see them as human beings.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Amos
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 01:34 PM

The recent-term cease fire was repeatedly violated by the firing of literally thousands of potentially lethal rockets across the border of Israel.

Seems to me there is plenty of opprtunity for Palestine to press its case in a more articulate way than firing rockets.

Where's the campaign, the communication, the PR, the diplomacy, the negotiation?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: bobad
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 01:42 PM

"Where's the campaign, the communication, the PR, the diplomacy, the negotiation?"

Hamas Charter:

Article Thirteen:
Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine is abuse directed against part of religion. Nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its religion. Its members have been fed on that. For the sake of hoisting the banner of Allah over their homeland they fight. "Allah will be prominent, but most people do not know."

Now and then the call goes out for the convening of an international conference to look for ways of solving the (Palestinian) question. Some accept, others reject the idea, for this or other reason, with one stipulation or more for consent to convening the conference and participating in it. Knowing the parties constituting the conference, their past and present attitudes towards Moslem problems, the Islamic Resistance Movement does not consider these conferences capable of realising the demands, restoring the rights or doing justice to the oppressed. These conferences are only ways of setting the infidels in the land of the Moslems as arbitraters. When did the infidels do justice to the believers?

"But the Jews will not be pleased with thee, neither the Christians, until thou follow their religion; say, The direction of Allah is the true direction. And verily if thou follow their desires, after the knowledge which hath been given thee, thou shalt find no patron or protector against Allah." (The Cow - verse 120).

There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with. As in said in the honourable Hadith:

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 01:51 PM

Watch that video I posted a link to in my 05 Jan 09 - 01:28 PM post in this thread. Hamas resumed the rocket attacks because Israel did not end the blockade of Gaza as it had agreed to do in the terms of the cease fire. Israel is quite literally starving the Gazans to death. Starving an entire population is a deliberate targeting of civilians. The people of Gaza have a right to defend themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:11 PM

" Israel is quite literally starving the Gazans to death."

It seems to me to be a slight exageration, when Jamas has no problem bringing in arms and explosives through the tunnels from EGYPT that GAZA has control over.

I guess Hamas and the Gazans would rather kill Jewish civilians than to feed their own children.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:32 PM

"The people of Gaza have a right to defend themselves. "


But you imply that Israel DOES NOT???

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: number 6
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:33 PM

interesting point BB ...

"I guess Hamas and the Gazans would rather kill Jewish civilians than to feed their own children. "

Which brings us back to that staetment ....

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: artbrooks
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:33 PM

Gaza has 2 neighbors, Israel and Egypt. Why is "Israel quite literally starving the Gazans to death" and Egypt isn't?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:34 PM

Hamas made a specific decision that Gqzans should eat explosives, not food. THAT is what they brought in throuh the tunnels.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:36 PM

The people of Gaza are too numerous to feed by smuggling food in through tunnels. They need to be able to earn a living, and to be able to import food that they purchase with the money they earn. It is not at all an exaggeration to say that Israel is literally starving the people of Gaza to death.

Starving an entire civilian population is not a form of defense.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:37 PM

Using area mass bombardment anti-personnel rockets is a deliberate targeting of civilians.

Yet Israelis do not have the right to defend themselves, according to CarolC

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:38 PM

Watch the video I posted a link to in my 05 Jan 09 - 01:28 PM post in this thread. It explains the economics of the situation in Gaza and it shows why it is Israel that is starving the Gazans.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:38 PM

Using area mass bombardment anti-personnel rockets is NOT a form of defense, either.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:43 PM

Hamas would not be firing those rockets if Israel had honored it's obligation under the terms of the cease fire and ended the blockade of Gaza. The rockets are a defensive act in response to Israel's deliberate targeting of the civilian population of Gaza. If the Gazans had the kind of precision weaponry that would allow them to be more precise about whom they target, I'm sure they would be happy to use them against Israeli military targets. Under the circumstances, they are using what they can get.

Maybe the US should provide Hamas with smart weaponry, as we're doing for the Israelis, so Hamas can be more precise about whom their defensive weapons hit.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:44 PM

"They need to be able to earn a living, and to be able to import food that they purchase with the money they earn."

The cost of the rockets and explosives would be more than enough to feed them, if they wanted to feed themselves more than they wanted to kill Jews.

Are you saying they can bring in tons of explosives and arms, and NOT bring in an equal weight of food? Or medicines?

That they can smuggle in fighters to kill ( bith Jews and anyone who does not agree with then, like Fatah) but cannot bring in doctors?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: number 6
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:45 PM

Art ... Gaza has been under Israeli and Egyptian blockade since a violent Hamas takeover in June 2007. The tunnels have helped Hamas stay in power by relieving shortages."

palestinians / egyprions clash at border

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:47 PM

I have met and worked with here in Canada (and some are currently good friends) Jordanians, Iranians, Syrians, Lebanese but I have never met any Palestinians.

Can anyone here provide any insight to this as to why?

I'm Jewish, and I know many Palestinians in Canada, both in Toronto, where I live, and in Montreal, where I grew up and still spend much time. I just checked with a Palestinian friend I know through my Jewish-Palestinian dialogue group and she said there are 30,000+ Palestinians in Canada; mostly in major cities like Toronto, Montreal, Ottawa, Vancouver, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:48 PM

The cost of the weapons would hardly feed the civilian population of Gaza. The cost of the weapons would not even come close to providing for the basic needs of the people of Gaza. It might feed them for a very short period of time, but it would not sustain them over the long run. And since there was no legitimate reason for the blockade of Gaza during the cease fire, especially since the only people who were effected by the blockade were civilians, and since the government of Israel agreed to end the blockade under the terms of the cease fire, such a blockade was an act of war on the part of the government of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:49 PM

CarolC,

I can just as easily claim that

"A complete carpet bombing of the launch sites of the rockets are a defensive act in response to Hamas's deliberate targeting of the civilian population of Israel."


Yet please note that Israel is targeting MILITARY targets, and has NOT carpet bombed, as Hamas would have if it had the chance.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:51 PM

The blockade of Gaza preceded the takeover of Gaza by Hamas. It effectively started when the Oslo agreement took effect. Watch the video I posted a link to in my 05 Jan 09 - 01:28 PM post in this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:53 PM

I have not expressed an opinion about Israel's current bombing campaign in Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:54 PM

"there was no legitimate reason for the blockade of Gaza during the cease fire,"

The blockade was imnposed after the violent takeover of Gaza by Hamas, who proceded to launch attacks ( rockets) against Israel. The ceasefire was supposed to apply to BOTH SIDES, Carol: Please show me any time period when Hamas was NOT launching those rockets. Israel waited several days after HAMAS unilateraly declared the ceasefire over, asking that the rockets be stopped BEFORE the present series of attacks. Hamas chose to continue the rockets, and is still continuing them.

The blood of the innocent civilians on both sides are on Hamas, and their supporters.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: number 6
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 03:03 PM

Thanks for that C Ham .... having lived and worked in Toronto up until 10 years ago I never met any Palestinians here in Canada ..... I didn't realize there are that many ...... I'm sure given the opportunity many more would if they could would immigrate here ..... it would be good I'm sure ... I currently live in Saint John and there has been an influx of immigrants from the mid-east coming in, small but growing .... enough that there is now a mideast cafe. Never have encountered any hatred or strong animosity towards Israel or towards my own Jewish (part) heritage.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 03:04 PM

Watch the video I posted a link to in my 05 Jan 09 - 01:28 PM post in this thread. The blockade of Gaza was in effect long before Hamas took power in Gaza. The blockade was tightened after Hamas' takeover, but it was already in place long before that. That's one of the main reasons Hamas was elected in the first place. The people of Gaza knew from experience that Fatah would not or could not get the blockade ended, so they decided to give Hamas a try to see if they would be successful.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 03:06 PM

Hamas honored the terms of the cease fire and did not fire rockets during the period of the cease fire. After the cease fire expired, and Israel had not honored its obligation under the cease fire, Hamas started firing rockets again.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 03:11 PM

I have known several Palestinian families... I grew up across the street from one family. But they were Christian, from the Christian town of Rammallah. Of course, after they were driven out in 1948 ( when Jordan occupied the west Bank) it became a Moslim town, and the west bank was made "Juden-frei".


But that is ok- Jews can be removed,: it is only wrong to treat Moslims that way.


As I have stated, If Israel treated the Moslims anything like the Jews have been treated by the Moslim nations, there would be no Arab population at all, anywhere.

Why do 640,000 Moslim refugees have rights that 820,000 Jewish ones ( just from the Arab nations) are denied?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: artbrooks
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 03:13 PM

CarolC, I really don't have the time to watch an 1 1/2 video, and the sound quality is so poor that I can barely hear it with my PC speakers at full volume.

Please tell me, since Gaza has 2 neighbors, Israel and Egypt. Why is "Israel quite literally starving the Gazans to death" and Egypt isn't? Why can't Egypt open its border crossing and aid its fellow Arabs? Why is this the responsibility of the entity upon which the rulers of Gaza have pledged unending jihad?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Amos
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 03:14 PM

Bruce:

Which 820,000 refugees is that? When/where are you referring to?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: pdq
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 03:15 PM

...While Israel Tries to Protect Them

Israeli TV reported that minutes before the targeted killing of a Hamas terrorist in his apartment or home, all the neighbors get a phone call warning them to get out of the area. Some of the defiant ones go to the roof hoping to dissuade the IDF from firing at which point a small, harmless missile is fired to a corner of the roof. This convinces the defiant to get away. Then and only then is the hit performed.

There is no other army in the world that takes such extreme measures to protect noncombatants.

— Channel 10, Israel TV, (January 1, 2009)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 03:16 PM

"Hamas honored the terms of the cease fire and did not fire rockets during the period of the cease fire"


BULLSHIT!


"Ten Qassam rockets fired into Israel from Gaza
Central Asia News.Net
Tuesday 23rd October, 2007 (Ynet News)

Five Qassam rockets were fired at the southern town of Sderot on Tuesday evening.

One of them hit an apartment building in the city, and several people suffered from shock.

Two additional rockets landed in open areas. The Salah al-Din Brigades, the Popular Resistance Committees' military wing, claimed responsibility for firing the rockets.

In total, more than 10 rockets were launched at Israel from the Gaza Strip on Tuesday. Most of them landed in open areas. One of the rockets hit an area near a strategic facility in Ashkelon's southern industrial zone, another landed near southern kibbutzim, and the others landed near communities in the Sdot Negev regional council, not far from the town of Netivot. "




There were somethiong like 5500 to 6000 rockets launched against the civilian population since Hamas took over- many during the ceasefire that you seem to insist only applies to Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 03:17 PM

Mainstream Media Not Reporting Israel Follows International Law; Hamas Does Not

By Herb Denenberg, The Bulletin
Published: Monday, January 05, 2009

The easiest way for anyone in the media to get a scoop is to write anything that is fair and balanced and with respect for the truth on the conflict in the Middle East. That's because the mainstream media, such as The New York Times, NBC, Philadelphia Inquirer, etc., take the usual anti-Israel line, and fail to report on anything that might put Israel in a good light. So this is my scoop for today.

---

Ridiculously long non-music copy-paste deleted!
The rules apply to you and Amos, too, Bruce.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 03:22 PM

Egypt does not control the airspace and coastline of Gaza. The Israelis do that, along with controlling Gazans' ability to travel to the West Bank. Israel controls the flow of goods out of Gaza. Gaza would not need any cooperation from Egypt at all if it controlled its own air space and coastline.


The question is not which countries have Jews and which countries have Muslims. Although the above poster persistently tries to suggest that there are no Christian Palestinians remaining in Palestine, there actually are quite a few, and they are suffering just as much because of what the government of Israel is doing as the Muslims are. Palestine is not a Muslim country, and it has never been the intention of the Palestinians that it should be. That's a straw man argument that someone is putting out there to mislead people.

The Palestinians don't have any problem with Jews living in Palestine along side of the rest of the Palestinians, as long as they do it as Palestinians and not as occupiers from Israel. Alternatively, many Palestinians would be content if Israel would complete its annexation of the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem, and give everyone living within its borders equal rights of citizenship and exactly the same civil right.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 03:24 PM

Amos,

In 1948, much like when India and Pakistan were formed ( with a good deal of violence) there were about 820,00 Jews driven out of Arab Moslim lands, with what they could carry if that. THEY lost their property and goods. The Israelis asked Moslims to stay ( partially to slow the Arab League armies down) and a number did- the present Arab Moslim populatiopn of Israel shows this 9 the reason i ask about Jews in the Moslim nations). 640,000 Moslims left as refugees, and only Jordan offered then citizenship ( as the Arab Msolim palestinian Homeland) IF they reounced violent conflict against Israel. A number did so, and became Jordanian citizens. The rest were held in camps by the Arab nations and not allowed to settle as citizens.


So any discussion of the Palestnians "right of return" whould be balanced by that greater number of displace Arab Jews, THAT ISRAEL SETTLED.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 03:43 PM

"it has never been the intention of the Palestinians that it should be"

But it IS the intention of Hamas:

""The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."


http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm



It is not really difficult to find such things- like the Israel constitution, the Arab League statements from 1948 and 1967, etc. WHy do some here keep making statements that are not supported by the facts?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 03:46 PM

So what? Hamas is only a small part of the Palestinian people. Hamas would have no power whatever if the Palestinians had basic human rights.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 04:01 PM

Israel is NOT attacking the Palestinian People: It is attacking military targets in Gaza, whose government, Hamas, has been attacking Israel's civilian population with rockets.

Hamas is using its own population as human shields, in violation of the Geneva Conventions. the blood of the vast majority of those innocent civilians is upon Hamas.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 04:09 PM

CaroC, I repeat and rephrase this question:
If Isreal were to withdraw to its pre 1967 borders is Hamas prepared to live in peace with the Jewish state? Would the rest of the Middle East do likewise? Yes BB that would mean giving up control of Jerusalem but perhaps in peace that city would be open to people of all faiths. I am not a strong believer of religious dogma and wish that could be cast aside but that perhaps won't happen for many years.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beqardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 04:16 PM

DAMASCUS, Syria – France's president sought Syrian help Tuesday to bring a cease-fire in the Gaza Strip, while Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice headed to the United Nations for meetings with Arab and European leaders.

The diplomacy drive showed little gains, though, as fighting in Gaza between the militant Palestinian group Hamas and Israeli forces raged for an 11th day, with almost 600 dead.

In the middle of a whirlwind Mideast tour, French President Nicolas Sarkozy urged his hosts in Syria to pressure Hamas to help end the fighting. Syria, along with Iran, is a key backer of Hamas, and it hosts the exiled political leadership of the group and other radical Palestinian factions.

"Syria must help us to convince Hamas to choose the voice of reason and peace," Sarkozy said, adding there can be no military solution.

Syrian President Bashar Assad did not respond to Sarkozy's call, instead slamming the Israeli offensive in Gaza as an "aggression" that must halt.

Assad said he agreed with Sarkozy on the need for a quick resolution to the "humanitarian tragedy" and for a cease-fire, Israeli withdrawal and the lifting of the blockade of Gaza. He made no mention of Hamas stopping rocket attacks on Israel.

In the past, Assad refused Israeli and U.S. demands to drop support for militant groups such as Hamas and Hezbollah, saying "armed resistance" against the Israeli occupation is justified.

Sarkozy already talked with Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak, Israeli leaders and Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas during his tour. He arrived later Tuesday in Lebanon and planned to return to Egypt in the evening.

Egyptian officials also increased pressure on the Syria-based Hamas leadership to accept a cease-fire.

Egypt, which has a peace deal with Israel has sometimes played a mediator role between Israel and Hamas, wants Hamas to cooperate with international efforts to end the Gaza conflict, Egyptian officials close to the negotiations said Tuesday. They spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the talks.

Egypt's influential intelligence chief, Omar Suleiman, and a delegation of Syria-based Hamas leaders spoke in Cairo on Tuesday.

"The message Hamas is getting (from Suleiman) is that without a cease-fire the Palestinians will be in a grave danger and everything they have achieved so far will be gone," one of the Egyptian officials said.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 04:22 PM

Sandy,

When Arabs had Jeruselum,from 1948 to 1967, Jews were not allowed acces to the holy spots there.

When Israel had control, from 1867 to present, ALL faiths have access to their holy spots.



Israel has complied with the UN Ceasefire on Lebenon of 2006: The Israeli soldiers kidnapped, which the ceasefire says will be returned, have not been returned.

ALL nations were to make sure that Hezboallah would be disarmed, and no additional military supplies would be allowed into Lebenon for Hezboallah: Starting with 12,000 rockest, and firing over 4,000, Hezboallah now claims more than 30,000 missiles, to threaten the civilian Israeli population.



If you were Israel, would YOU give control of Jeruselum up? For promises that have not been kept before, nor are being kept now?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 04:24 PM

When Israel had control, from 1967 to present, ALL faiths have access to their holy spots.



Sorry, typo.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 04:32 PM

Israel: Hamas mortars prompted attack near U.N. school

Story Highlights
NEW: Hamas militants fired shells from school, Israel says

NEW: Third school damaged by artillery shell, U.N. says

NEW: Condoleezza Rice set to meet with other diplomats at U.N.

Sixth Israeli soldier dies; Israel says 130 Hamas fighters killed in ground offensive

   
GAZA CITY (CNN) -- Three artillery shells believed to have been fired by Israeli forces struck near the perimeter of a U.N. school in northern Gaza on Tuesday, killing at least 30 people and wounding 55, a U.N. official said.

The Israeli military said Hamas militants had fired mortar shells at Israeli forces, prompting return fire, according to its initial investigation.

U.N. Relief and Works Agency Director John Ging said most of the casualties were outside the school in the Jabalya refugee camp.

"It's a very built-up area, so of course it was entirely inevitable that if artillery shells landed in that area there would be a high number of casualties," he said at a U.N. briefing from Gaza City.

Palestinian sources said 44 were killed in the attack.

The Israeli military said it is checking the report. The Israeli government has barred CNN and other news from entering Gaza.

A short time later, another artillery shell struck inside a second U.N. school in Jabalya, but Ging said the boys' prep school was empty at the time.

It was the third Israeli strike affecting a U.N. school in Gaza. Three Palestinian men, all members of the same family, were killed Monday night in Gaza City by a direct hit on an elementary school, the U.N. agency said. The schools were in use as shelters for civilians fleeing the military operation. The buildings were "clearly marked" with U.N. flags, and the agency said it had given the global-positioning coordinates of all its schools to Israeli authorities.

The U.N. agency said 400 Palestinians were staying in the Asma Elementary School at the time of Monday night's airstrike.

The latest incidents came as Israeli ground forces surrounded densely populated Gaza City after at least 50 airstrikes pounded the region overnight. Watch as Israel's forces surround Gaza City »

Other airstrikes hit the homes of people linked to Hamas, the Islamic militant group that rules Gaza, including the Wadi family in Jabalya, Hamas security sources said. Eight people were killed in that strike. An overnight airstrike hit the Jabalya home of Imad Siam, one of the leaders of Hamas' military wing.

Israel claimed Tuesday to have killed 130 Hamas fighters since beginning a ground offensive at dusk Saturday. An Israeli soldier was killed Tuesday morning in northern Gaza City, the Israeli military said, bringing to six the number of Israeli forces who have died in Gaza since Israel launched its ground incursion. Learn what's behind the conflict »

As Israeli forces encircled Gaza City -- which has a population of about 400,000 -- diplomats turned up the heat for a cease-fire.

U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice briefed President-elect Barack Obama on Monday about American diplomatic efforts in the conflict, her spokesman said Tuesday.

Rice will confer Tuesday at the United Nations with officials including Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas, the State Department said. Abbas plans to present a resolution drafted by the Arab League to the U.N. Security Council. The resolution will call for Israel to stop its offensive in Gaza and for Hamas to cease firing rockets at the Jewish state.

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert on Monday told French President Nicolas Sarkozy that Israel wanted a "full solution" to the conflict, not just a cease-fire that allowed Hamas to fortify itself, Olmert spokesman Mark Regev said. "Before the last cease-fire with Hamas began, Hamas had missiles with a range of 20 kilometers," Regev said Tuesday. "By the end of the cease-fire, the range of the missiles grew to 40 kilometers. Israel does not want the next cease-fire to allow them to get missiles with a range of 60 kilometers."
A Hamas rocket penetrated farther than ever before into Israel on Tuesday, landing in the town of Gadera, about 23 miles (36 kilometers) north of the Gaza border, the Israeli military said. On Monday, a rocket hit a kindergarten in Ashdod, about 16 miles (26 kilometers) north of Gaza.

Hamas had fired 30 rockets at Israel by Tuesday afternoon, the Israeli military said. Hamas spokesman Abu Obeida has warned Israel that the militants will continue rocket attacks "for many months" and vowed to strike deeper into Israeli territory.

The humanitarian situation in Gaza has deteriorated. Hundreds of wounded people swarmed into Gaza's largest hospital.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 04:34 PM

BB as I said my hope would be that Jerusalem would be an open city to all faiths. I know that was not done in the past but if it were in the future would that bring peace? In order to negotiate anything in good faith it requires some give and take on the part of both sides. Somewhere, somehow ther must be a new beginning point!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 04:45 PM

Under Israel it has been.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 04:49 PM

Israel is targeting the civilian population of Gaza with its blockade of Gaza. That is an attack on the Palestinian people in Gaza.


___________________

All of the Middle Eastern countries as well has Hamas have said that they would accept the existence of Israel within the pre-1967 borders.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 05:03 PM

"All of the Middle Eastern countries as well has Hamas have said that they would accept the existence of Israel within the pre-1967 borders."
If they were all to bring that statement to the UN Security Council tomorrow it would put tremendous international pressure on Isreal to withdraw. Much more than shooting rockets in a fight they have little or no hope of winning

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 05:05 PM

"as well has Hamas have said that they would accept the existence of Israel "

Until Hamas repudiates its charter, your statement is an obvious falsehood.

Have you ever even read anything that disagrees with what you want to believe? Obviously you have not read the charter of Hamas, nor their official statements.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 05:09 PM

Hamas has stated that they would accept an agreement for Israel to return to the pre-1967 borders. Clearly they don't feel a need to change the charter until they see the possibility of Israel actually doing that.


I'm very glad the Mudcat moderators have a policy of deleting anonymous guest postings, and I expect that, in accordance with this policy, all postings from anonymous guests in this thread will be deleted.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 05:10 PM

The Middle Eastern countries have had a proposal to recognize Israel within the pre-1967 borders on the table for years. It's called the Saudi Proposal. I'm sure the UN is aware of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 05:24 PM

The Saudi proposal was that Israel concede its negotiating points ( Jeruselam and the "right of return" ( For Moslims- no mention of equaty for Jews) BEFORE they could sit at the negotiating table.



"I want to buy your house."

Fine. sign this agreement to give me all I want, and I will start to negotiate with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 05:26 PM

BB - I respect you, I hope you know that.


The balance has tipped way beyond what is justifiable.



There is only one statistic that matters now - 195 children dead.



I DON'T CARE WHY!!!!!!!



The time to stop is NOW!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 05:30 PM

Just waiting for Hamas to stop launching rockets. Until then, the Israeli forces will keep attacking military targets. If there are children there, ask why- and ask it of HAMAS.




Any other country would have just carpet bombed the area, killing them all.


And would have gotten a lot less flack from the world, as well.



Did you read my post of 06 Jan 09 - 03:17 PM

"Mainstream Media Not Reporting Israel Follows International Law; Hamas Does Not"

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 05:35 PM

What about our chiildren, he did this and I did that ...

... this is the argumentative logic of my daughter in the playground.

In such situations I tell both children to stop being naughty.

In this case, 195 children have been killed and it is a disgrace and may those who killed them burn in hell.

I didn't say palestinian children, I said children.


Do you see them as "different children"?


He made me do it. - doesn't wash.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 05:40 PM

But I don't feel the burn of tears till I consider those who survive but are mutilated ...

... and yet it continues ...

... is continuing ...

... and those survivirs are in pain and in fear ...

... no guarantee that you will survive the seond time - especially when hospitals and schools are legitimate targets.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Gervase
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 05:43 PM

Why is everyone feeding the bearded troll? Does anyone imagine that they will be the one to evince a damascene conversion - that their particular post will cause him to throw up his hands and cry, "I was wrong"?
This thread is in danger of turning into another WalkaboutsVerse tit for tat. Just let it drop - BB will continue to post stuff from the world as he sees it, and if sensible folk ignore it then no harm done. It's only a web site, for Pete's sake, and it's only the opinion of one man. I really wouldn't think the world's statesmen are refreshing our screens as we type, waiting for the next pearl from the selective cut'n'paste maestro.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 05:45 PM

Extract from one of my favourite columnists, Michele Hanson, in today's Guardian:

I'm on my dog walkie and I meet an acquaintance with her dog. We are both Jewish. Naturally I mention Israel, now that it is bombing the hell out of Gaza. This is not good for the Jews. First Bernie Madoff, Wall Street financier and swindler, now this. Our name will be mud. But I like this woman. She is personable, friendly, witty, bright. We often talk about our children and families. I assume she will agree with me, so I say that Israel must be mad. They must stop their attack at once, this is not going to help anyone.

But my friend does not agree. "They have to defend themselves," she says. "Hamas keep firing rockets."

"Because Israel is illegally occupying Palestine. It must get its settlements out of the West Bank ... blah, blah, blah." Why argue? I can tell I'm not going to get anywhere. How are Israel and Palestine to agree if we cannot? Clear as day to me. Clear as day the other way round to her, and apparently to the BBC, ITV, Channel 4 and most newspapers. None of them mentions the bloody settlements. I watch the news, I listen carefully, I wait for the reporters to ask the Israeli leaders, ministers and representatives, "What about the illegal settlements? When are they going to be dismantled? When can the Palestinians have their land back? What about the wall? The siege/blockade of Gaza? The democratic choice of Hamas? The death of 1,700 Palestinians in Gaza in the last three years since the Israelis 'pulled out'? When will the checkpoints be opened?" Not a peep.

"Where is Tony Blair in all this?" asks Rosemary. "Isn't he meant to be sorting it out?" Yes. He's just back from holiday and he's going to do it without talking to Hamas, and probably without making too much fuss about settlements. I would laugh, but I can't.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 05:46 PM

If there are children there, ask why- and ask it of HAMAS.

The Israeli's have just shelled a UN school killing thirty people. The UN spokesperson said the Israelis have the co-ordinates of all the UN places which are supposed to be respected.

"The Hamas were sheltering behind civilians" say the Israelis. Nothing new there.

Remarkable when they shell such places they manage to kill the women and kids and still miss the Hamas.

It is simply slaughter. Let's stop pretending it is anything else. Are the Israeli soldiers just obeying orders?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 05:52 PM

Because I've read many of his posts over many years, and communicated with him over a small number too.

I like the guy and feel very strongly that he is a good hearted intelligent sincere man.

I don't se him as any type of troll.

I do feel also that he has fortified his view of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict with piles of information which serves as a big indomitable unbreachable wall of logic.

I believe that on this issue, he has developed a siege mentality and as such is prepared, like Israel, to take on all comers without budging or flinching.

He does care about those children, but can't see them as to do so would weaken the defence in his argumental wall.

We cannot show mercy or we shall perish.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 06:02 PM

600-9.

This is just another genocide.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 06:07 PM

I see the children, and ache for their pain. I wish they were not harmed- but I hold Hamas responsible, just as I would hold a drunk bus driver responsible for the kids he might hurt if he drives irresponsibly.


But I note that there were no wails of horror when the Hamas rockets hit the Palestinian children, or the suicide bomber blew up the Israeli children's party. It seems that ONLY JEWS are hel;d reponsible, even when it is someone else's fault.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 06:20 PM

Those were also tragedies BB and my heart goes out to those children and their families.

What's more, the people who committed those murders are criminals.

But for the same reason that a stabbing in London gets less Media attention than a Gunman in Dunblaine, so there is more attention on this than on those.

This is not one incident - it is a massacre.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 06:23 PM

Sorry - the key point -

This massacre is happening now.

We aren't talking about something that happened, but something that is happening.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 06:25 PM

"I see the children, and ache for their pain."
It's just words, isn't it!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 06:27 PM

"Palestine is not a Muslim country, and it has never been the intention of the Palestinians that it should be." – So says CarolC.

In saying that she is almost correct, what she omits to mention is that that was also the founding intention of the League of Nations. Great Britain knew full well that there would be problems with that from the Arabs who lived in the Mandated territory known as Palestine as declared in 1921 – THAT Palestine consisted of Gaza; what is now known as Israel; the area now known as the West Bank and all of what is now known as Jordan.

In 1923 to avoid the foreseen problems with territories mandated for administration and oversight by France and the United Kingdom two areas were set up specifically to establish refuge for minorities, the French established the Lebanon and the British broke off 23% of the original Palestinian Mandated Territory calling this area Palestine, the remaining 77% of the original area was given to the Palestinian Arabs and called Trans-Jordan. While anyone could purchase land in the new Palestine which consisted of Gaza; what is now known as Israel and the area now known as the West Bank, only Arabs could own land in Trans-Jordan.

Now this multicultural, secular, religious-tolerant acreage did not suit the Muslims (predominantly Arabs) who lived in the new Palestine and so steps forth self aggrandized "Grand Mufti of Jerusalem" – Yasser Arafat's Uncle – He derived his power and wealth from devout Muslims and he wanted those loyal devout dupes to control the country as a means of ensuring his continued wealth – A trait that ran strong in that family going on Yasser's later performance. Hence his campaign of lies that fomented Arab violence on the Jewish citizens of Palestine from 1920 to 1947 – the acts of violence and terrorism that CarolC denies ever happened. What Carol's "Palestinians" are fighting for now is precisely what they were offered by the United Nations in 1947 and rejected out of hand. Had they accepted those terms in 1947 there would of course have been no displaced persons, there would have been no "Right of Return" issues. The other "crack-in-the-plaster" that is being conveniently papered over is that Hamas will never recognize Israel's right to peaceful co-existence, the Jewish State of Israel is an offense against the world of Islam – You cannot negotiate with people who are committed and determined to annihilate you.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 06:32 PM

but I hold Hamas responsible

I dont hold jews responsible - I hold the people who ordered this and who fired the shells responsible.

As I do for all the other shells.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 06:33 PM

""I see the children, and ache for their pain."
It's just words, isn't it! "

No Ake - its the vulnerable man in the middle of the fortress.

Excuse my arrogance, but in my view the post to which you refer is a model example.

The vulnerable man is sitting safe and in the dark surrounded by an impenetrable wall of denial on the inside, and blame on the outside.

If the drunk driver were about to drive over a cliff then the analogy would be fair, but that isn't how things are.

The drunk driver is driving towards a well equipped technologically advanced state, which, rather than try and help the children, has chosen to kill the driver and accept the loss of the children as collateral damage.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 06:35 PM

Like I said, with explanation, on the "other thread", Israel is acting like a dupe nation that has just fallen for trickery and is now less secure...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 06:38 PM

"Israel is an offense against the world of Islam – You cannot negotiate with people who are committed and determined to annihilate you."

Oh shit - well in that case maybe Israel should just nuke them - as after all - if one is alive they will make it their purpose to destroy Israel.

Your logic mate.

And if you don't think they should all be destroyed then what alternative do you see?

Talking?

Cos thats the choice.

Killing or Talking.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 06:42 PM

They're just enjoying the last bit of unquestioning loyalty tat they can hope for from the USA.

If right wing Americans don't trust "muslim" Obama then right wing Israelis sure as hell won't.

If he ain't gonna be for us then he must be against us and all that.

Not to mention that his middle name is Hussein...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 06:44 PM

Last year Bruce, 50 people died and hundreds more were injured bt Israel's hands on the West Bank.

Now tell me how many rockets were fired from the West Bank?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 06:45 PM

"Those whom the gods would destroy they first make mad" - Euripides.

Seems to apply pretty well to this situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 06:52 PM

They've *all* gone mad.

It's not 'one side or the other' any longer, just a combined collection of soldiers and leaders who have seemingly lost their humanity together.


"Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that."
Martin Luther King Jr.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: number 6
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 07:03 PM

Bravo lizzie !!

I agree .. it has gone mad ... tragic lunacy

with that I'm outta here.


biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: kendall
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 09:28 PM

Can someone tell me why it is that all we see on our news is maimed and dead children in Gaza? Why do we not see the victims of the rockets that lad in Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: robomatic
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 10:58 PM

I'm gonna start this with a shout-out to Bearded Bruce who is acquitting himself nobly in a noble and worthwhile cause, taking upon himself the slings and arrows of outraged self-righteousness on the part of many others. BB, It's twenty below zero outside and I'm reading this thread in order to get my temperature up. I appreciate what you've got to say and for the most part agree with it. It's a shame some of the folks in this thread have chosen to treat you with condescension, but buck up. They didn't say anything for the Tutsis, for the oppressed of Darfur, for the Georgians, for Baghdadi Shiites, but let a Hamas leader get killed while in the bowels of his family, all hell breaks loose. I''d rather not follow that line of thought much further, it'll get me depressed and bring down the temperature.

Without getting into the name-blame bizness, I'm duty bound to alert y'all of the usual: Some of you might not like Israel being there, but it's there, it's a real country for several generations now, and it wishes to protect its borders and citizens. It's the only democratic country in the area, (except Iraq and Afganistan for the time being). If this causes you tsores, look elsewhere for sympathy. I'm proud as hell of Israel and what it has accomplished in sixty years.

One person maintained that Hamas honored their cease-fire commitments, even when they were firing rockets indiscriminately into civilian parts of Israel, as they have been doing throughout the recent unpleasantness. This is patently untrue and simply a means of taking sides irrespective of whatEVER Hamas does. It is perhaps true that Hamas honored the truce by Hamas terms. Just as Two years ago Hamas was executing members of Fatah in the streets and publicly taking apart, literally, folks accused of being collaborators. Peace, government, justice on Hamas terms.

Israel could just be bombing Gaza into the stone age. Instead they are sending their men into harms' way. This happened in Ramallah in 2002 and there was a lot of bleating about it, without a critical view of many of the claims being made about Palestinian casualties, which proved to be overstated and phony.

A poster above only counts Palestinian alleged child casualties and defines everything based on that. They must've been a real wildman during the Rwandan massacres.

Another would be more at ease if only the Israelis were suffering more casualties. Somehow that make it more palatable to this person. I think it is disgusting. It's bad enough that any children are in harm's way, but it would do far more to justice to review WHY they are in harm's way and who put them there.

Rocket after rocket has pounded into Israeli communities for years. This is under Hamas direct oversight and is part of Hamas policy. Hamas policy is not merely one of land for Palestinians, It is juden raus. Why is it that Israel has Christian and Muslim citizens but Jews and Christians are not equals in most Arab countries? If you are accused of trying to convert a Muslim or of defaming Mohammed your life is in jeopardy. And to repeat what Bearded Bruce and a few others have said cogently and correctly, why is it that Israel must resettle displaced Jews AND displaced Arabs?

Abba Eban famously said: "The Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity." Israel marched out of Gaza pretty much unilaterally three years ago. There was opportunity with a capital "O". Is the situation we see now caused by Israel or Hamas? I see it as unequivically Hamas.

FWIW, among the crowd I work with, comments run the absolute reverse of many on this thread. It's been intimated that I'm a Palestinian lover, to which I reply, "What do you mean, I AM a Palestinian!" The whole problem is the folks who refuse to see me as one, too!"

Robomatic, proud ZIONIST, proud Palestinian

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 01:22 AM

"Israel is an offense against the world of Islam – You cannot negotiate with people who are committed and determined to annihilate you."

Oh shit - well in that case maybe Israel should just nuke them - as after all - if one is alive they will make it their purpose to destroy Israel.

Your logic mate.

And if you don't think they should all be destroyed then what alternative do you see?" - Guest lox

The alternative Guest Lox is simple - Hamas have to publicly renounce the stated aims of their Charter, they have to renounce violence - then and only then is there a basis for discussion.

With regard to the situation in Northern Ireland the following had to be done before any negotiations were in any way, shape, or form, meaningful:

- Cessation and renunciation of violence on the part of the paramilitary groups.
- Agreement to decommission weapons in a manner that could be verified by independent third parties.
- The removal from the Constitution of Eire of it statement regarding it's right to govern the six northern counties known as Ulster.

The latter being required in order to set in concrete that the decision as to who "ruled" Northern Ireland would be entirely up to the people of Northern Ireland.

The Palestinian Authority and Fatah have grasped the fact that some things on their side have to change and have come to terms with it. In the West Bank they possibly cannot be seen to deal harshly with splinter groups or fundamentalist radicals - but Israel can (Again a parallel from Northern Ireland; the PIRA informed on and colluded with the Security services to assist in eradicating the INLA).

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 04:23 AM

"Israel is an offense against the world of Islam"

No, it is the Extremist Militants within Islam itself who are an offence against Islam.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 04:56 AM

By the way, whether or not any Arabs rejected the Partition Plan to steal their land from them is totally irrelevant to whether or not Israel had a right to take land that was not given to it in the Partition plan. Under the terms of the Partition Plan, Israel did not have a right to take any land other than what was given to it in the Partition Plan.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 05:03 AM

"The alternative Guest Lox is simple - Hamas have to publicly renounce the stated aims of their Charter, they have to renounce violence - then and only then is there a basis for discussion."

Oh of course - simple.

So um ... how do we get to that point then teribus?

Do we wait?

Maybe they'll do it as a new years present?

Or Maybe we should talk?

Or maybe there should be more Killing?

Whats it to be - talking or killing?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Lox
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 05:45 AM

Here is a useful article by Avi Shlaim, a patriotic ex Israeli Army serviceman who went on to become a professor of international relations at oxford university.

Click here.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 06:17 AM

Everything that has already happened is completely irrelevant. The past is not a basis for any sort of discussion or negotiation, only the future. Until all parties draw a line, stop finger pointing and shouting "Yah-Boo" at one another, accept that what's happened can't be un-happened, and start to work out together how to prevent it happening again in the future, there is no future there.

Jaw-Jaw's what's needed, not War-War.

But don't hold your breath.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 07:10 AM

Kendall,

My overly long post ( apologies to all, esp. Joe) detailed some of the reasons. I will try to locate it an post the clickey to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 07:15 AM

http://www.thebulletin.us/articles/2009/01/05/herb_denenberg/doc4961c29b5ed1a649711765.txt



"The drunk driver is driving towards a well equipped technologically advanced state,"

No, the drunk bus driver is sideswiping cars, and running over the occasional bus stop, killing a few people each time. The police tried to shoot out the tires, and the bus crashed.

So blame the police.



Since Hamas took over Gaza, about 6000 rockets have been launced at Israeli civilians.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 07:27 AM

Under the terms of the Partition Plan, the Arab League did not have the right to attack Israel, so there woyuld have been no refugees, would there.


You can't allow that the Arab League can attack a state, and that state NOT defend itself AND obtain secure borders against the Arab League.

Not unless you declare Jews to be subhuman, and not having the rights you insist on for Moslims.

Is that the case?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 07:38 AM

"If Israel were to withdraw to its pre 1967 borders is Hamas prepared to live in peace with the Jewish state?"

How bout they do it, and then we see what happens?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 07:44 AM

Play this at full volume, day and night, to both sides, until everyone gets the message!

Send it to every Palestinian and Israeli Radio Station, TV station.

...and could someone 'out there' please ask Pete Morton to put it on his Myspace page, because this song is important, moreso if the people who are living through this hell got to hear it, because it is the ORDINARY people of the Middle East who will bring the peace, not the military or the crazy, hating extremists.


The Two Brothers by Pete Morton

"I don't care who started it, I just want to hear you play
I just want to see you smiling in the glory of the day
Israel give his ball back, stop pulling his hair
Both of you, my sons, I know it isn't fair

I don't care who started it, just stop all the noise
I can see you're two very over-tired little boys
Palestine I saw you kick him, Israel sit still
Let us get some peace now, if you will

I don't care who started it, must I ask you again?
Put aside your anger, all the sorrow and all the pain
Throw away your struggles, clear the mess up from the floor
Don't want to hear you squabbling anymore

I don't who started it, just try and get along
Every time I here I come round here, there's always something wrong
One day in the future this won't mean a thing
One day in the future, as brothers, you'll sing

I don't care who started it, I just want to hear you play
I just want to see you smiling in the glory of the day"


Pete Morton - Main Site

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 08:07 AM

Hmmm... UN claims no militants at school.

"Chris Gunness, a spokesman for the U.N. Relief and Works Agency, disputed Israel's account of the bombardment of the northern Gaza school. But he said that if anyone could clear up the remaining uncertainty, "We would like them to come forward and be part of an impartial investigation.""



CNN shows video of morter firing fron the yard of the school in question.



Impartial????

But then, the UN has yet to enforce the 2006 Lebanon Ceasefire ( except on Israel.)

Waiting on the UN demanding that Hezboallh release the two Israeli soldiers....



Stil waiting.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: kendall
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 09:35 AM

The way I read it is, Hamas is not being supported by the other Arab nations because they are extremists, and the other Arab governments are afraid of them. My suspicion is, they want to see the nut cases wiped out and they are willing to stand back and let Israel do it.

Right or wrong, as long as Israel is able to defend itself there will not be another Holocaust.

It is heart breaking to see a little child killed by an Israeli bomb, but that poor child is no deader than the Jewish ones killed by a Hamas rocket.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 09:55 AM

A fair and reasonable assessment, Kendall.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 10:16 AM

Re West Bank rockets:


http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55638


http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=51022


But shhh... As long as they kill only Jews it is ok.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 10:19 AM

CNN shows video of morter firing fron the yard of the school in question.

It is now admitted that that video is two years old.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 10:33 AM

If Hamas really wants to kill Jews why don't they confront the Israeli army in open battle? It is certainly the act of a coward to shoot from cover and then hide behind their own women and children! The poor innocent people who die by Israel's hand also leave their blood on the hands of Hamas!
Hamas is quite willing to see it's own people slaughtered in hope that it will create outrage in the Arab world. The rockets were launched against Israel to effect that response and Israel has complied. There is more than enough blame to send leaders of both sides to Hell but they are not the ones to die! It is the innocent and helpless and this must stop!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: kendall
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 01:57 PM

Their tactics are similar to ours in the revolution. The colonists had no means to stand toe to toe with the redcoats, so they had to shoot from behind trees and rocks.
When Washington put an army together they did go face to face, and even though George lost nearly every battle he still won the war. We made the same mistakes in Viet Nam that the British made in America.
Voltaire was right.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 02:44 PM

but that poor child is no deader than the Jewish ones killed by a Hamas rocket.

True enough - but there for every one of those there are several hundred Palestinian kids.

The accusation about "using civilians as shields" is pretty hollow, since there appear to be no indications whatsoever that the IDF is ever deterred from firing or bombing by the presence of civilians.

No one would accept for a moment the IDF claim from any other terrorist organisation which tried to explain that civilian fatalities were the result of the other side "using civilians as shields".

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 03:20 PM

You do not determine "righteousness" by counting the number of casualties!!!

If someone starts trouble against an obviously more powerful opponent, they may suffer out of proportion....no matter what their perceived 'cause!. In this conflict, that 'may' be one of the strategies to gain sympathy.

It makes no difference who has 'ultimate' right on their side..(does anyone think there is an 'ultimate' right anymore?)...*IF* you harass the big dog enough, it's going to try to bite you...you accept that!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: heatherblether
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 03:21 PM

Yup,the Israeli cause is covered in the blood and gore of Palestinian women and kids.

Hundreds dead and thousands seriously wounded.

Israel has now ordered the thousands residents of Raffeh in southern Gaza out of their homes by tomorrow because they intend to attack the neighbourhood probably with artillery fire and gunships but possibly with the very big bombs.

Less than helpfully, however, the Israelis have not told them where to go.

On one side is the sealed border, on another is the sea with Israeli warships lobbing shells when they see fit and to the north there are Israeli tanks and soldiers.Above them the Apache helicopters and the F16s are firing at will.

Somehow, when the mass murder is completed to Israel's satisfaction I cannot see the surviving Palestinians becoming any more "moderate "or having any faith in the western governments who armed Israel to the teeth and allowed them to the slaughter.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 03:26 PM

The video which has been presented as proof that there were people in that school firing mortars when it was targeted by the IDF yesterday was in fact made in October 2007 - at a time when the school was deserted, having been evacuated because of an Israel military operation.

See this report carried by Israel National News - UNRWA: We Don't Allow Terrorists in UN Schools

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 03:28 PM

"....I cannot see the surviving Palestinians becoming any more "moderate...."

No...I can't either, but I'd hope they got smarter about HOW to get some satisfaction in this mess...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 03:53 PM

Israel carried out 40 airstrikes Wednesday on targets including smuggling tunnels on the Gaza-Egypt border, Israel's chief army spokesman Brig. Gen. Avi Benayahu said.

An Israeli combat officer, identified as Lt. Col. Amir, said troops neutralized hundreds of explosives devices, including booby-trapped houses.

Residents said 16 houses on the border were destroyed, with Israel presumably targeting buildings shielding tunnel entrances. Hamas had about 300 smuggling tunnels in the area before the offensive, and Israel has already destroyed dozens in repeated strikes.

Fida Kishta, an area resident, said she could hear sporadic shelling from F-16 planes.

"I feel like the ground is shaking when we hear the shelling. People are terrified," Kishta said.

In the evening, an Israeli warplane dropped leaflets over the Rafah refugee camp on the Gaza-Egypt border, urging residents to flee because of planned Israel strikes. Hamas has weapons smuggling tunnels in the area, and Israel has already destroyed dozens of them in airstrikes.

"Because Hamas uses your houses to hide and smuggle military weapons, the IDF will attack the area, between the Egyptian border until the beach road," the leaflet said, according a local U.N. official.

After the leaflets were dropped, about 5,000 fled to two U.N. schools turned into temporary shelters.

Despite the army's push, Gaza militants fired 14 rockets Wednesday, including hits on the cities of Beersheba and Ashkelon.

Rocket fire has fallen off somewhat as Israeli troops tighten their hold on Gaza, taking over open areas used to launch rockets, but Gaza residents say militants are still launching from heavily populated areas.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 03:53 PM

You might hope it, but its rather more likely that some of them are going to get their satisfaction by seeking revenge against Israelis in general and Israeli sympathisers anywhere in the world.

This article in today's Guardian makes a lot of sense, it seems to me - Gaza after a Hamas rout will be an even greater threat to Israel:

"...from the rubble of Gaza, the attacks on Israel will surely resume. Hamas is too deeply rooted to disappear. New cells will arise, more filled with hatred and bent on revenge than ever. Already there are warnings of a return to suicide bombing, inside Israel and beyond. ...The great irony is that Israel may well decapitate Hamas - only to regret the passing of a Palestinian administration with sufficient stature to bring order..."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 04:49 PM

Israel has now ordered the thousands residents of Raffeh in southern Gaza out of their homes by tomorrow because they intend to attack the neighbourhood probably with artillery fire and gunships but possibly with the very big bombs.

Less than helpfully, however, the Israelis have not told them where to go.

Well they have fled to UN Schools. Makes em easier to hit by the Israelis.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: kendall
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 04:49 PM

War. The ultimate failure.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: artbrooks
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 04:58 PM

Heatherbleather, a brief glance at a map might be of value to you. Gaza is bordered on the southwest by Egypt and on the northeast, east and south by Israel. Any tanks and soldiers to the north are very damp.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 05:29 PM

"Their tactics are similar to ours in the revolution. The colonists had no means to stand toe to toe with the redcoats, so they had to shoot from behind trees and rocks."

Much though the Americans cling to this myth, those shooting from behind trees and rocks accomplished nothing, nor could they accomplish anything. What won the American Colonists their War of Independence was a conventional army allied to France who provided expertise, weapons, artillery and naval support. Another important factor in all this was complete and utter indifference - In the later stages as the war took on its global dimension, the British Government had bigger fish to fry elsewhere and basically couldn't give a rat's "you-know-what" about it's errant thirteen colonies. While Washington was losing battles and winning wars the British basicaly drove the Spanish and French from the Carribean, the French from India while bankrupting and ruining the Dutch and secured Britain's position in the Far East - Not such a bad trade-off really.

Yep CarolC what the Palestinians are demanding now was what was on offer under the UN proposal of 1947, the Jews at the time accepted that (i.e basically Israel as it now stands to more-or-less) while the Arabs did not. The Arabs opted for war and lost, odd thing about that CarolC is that that decision freely taken by the Arabs in 1947 was loaded with consequences, which unfortunately the Arabs of the region have never seemingly been able to fully accept. Israel is not going to go away, it is not going to quietly walk into the night, the Israelis are way passed that - If attacked, Israel will defend itself and it has every right to do so. Stop attacking Israel and formally acknowledge its right and the rights of its citizens to live in peace and all the violence would stop tomorrow.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 05:45 PM

The point is...Israel is very much like the USA is in regard to the Native Americans...you can argue wrongs were done, you can claim that they took Texas illegally...you can 'argue' many things...but it is HERE.
Whether Israel 'should' exist is a fascinating debate...but it does, and it has clout .. and friends with more clout. An entire policy based on ridding the MidEast of Israel, (and damn who dies in the process) in not realistic.

But...the same goes for Israel. THEY must realize that accommodation MUST be made to those who feel they have no 'real' homeland. (and something other than accommodation defined solely BY Israel!)

hopeless? Sure seems like it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: heatherblether
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 06:39 PM

To Bill
Of course Israel has clout and plenty of it.

It has one of the most sophisticated armies in the world and is a highly militarised state.

It receives huge amount of military and economic aid every year from the USA and those Apache gunships and F16 warplanes were all manufactured by the US arms industry.

Without this massive support Israel could not keep attacking its neighbours.

Why does America support Israel like it does?

Israel serves an Imperial function for the USA.It is its attack dog in one of the most important economic regions in the world.

Of course as well as serving America's interests the Israeli state has plenty of interests of its own in terms of its own expansionist ,racist and religious ideas.After all it was founded as a zionist entity and there are many Israelis at the heart of the state who are itching to get rid of the Palestinians...permanently.

But the situation is not some static one. The Palestinians have not scattered to the four corners of the globe.The Palestinian birthrate is higher than the Israeli birthrate. Israel is no longer seen as the plucky little fighter by people across the world.It is rightly seen as a brutal and savage oppressor of all its opponents whether they are Lebanese civilians fleeing their homes in car convoys or young kids being blown up in a United Nations School in Gaza.

Israel now gets its support mainly from those blood soaked old war hawks in the Pentagon and in Downing Street and in similar places .

Israel was a notable supporter of apartheid era South Africa and could always be relied on to supply some uzis to any thuggish dictator in Latin America. It has a history of thuggish and brutal behaviour that goes back to its founding when its own terrorist gangs hung British soldiers with wire until they were dead.

But things are changing.It is finding it harder and harder to win these invasions and wars.Hezbollah gave it a bloody nose in 2006 and gained massive respect in the Middle East by doing so. The respect was earned by Hezbollah not because of its religious beliefs but because it was able to take on the invaders and beat them back.

I dont know what will happen in Gaza over the coming days and weeks but it wont be decent and it will be barbaric and Israel is going to finish this latest round an international pariah...not because of its religious beliefs but because it has gleefully made war on women and children and murdered them by the hundred ...and things are changing !
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: heatherblether
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 06:55 PM

Fifteen Jewish Canadian women have today occupied the Israeli consulate in Toronto in solidarity with the Palestinian people of Gaza and as a protest against the war crimes being committed in that city by the Israeli military.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 07:19 PM

""Israel is NOT attacking the Palestinian People: It is attacking military targets in Gaza, whose government, Hamas, has been attacking Israel's civilian population with rockets.""

From the BBCs World News coverage, it would seem they're growing very short soldiers in Palestine these days.

Funny how there aren't any adult military men on show. And those wounded women sure looked fierce and dangerous.

Four hundred dead in a couple of days, and it don't seem that there are many Hamas militants among 'em.

Still you can't make an omelette without breaking a few egs, can you BB?


Hamas have been carpet bombing Israel for eight years, and they might as well have been throwing snowballs.

There's no right or wrong side in this. They are both bloody mad, and I wonder if the so-called civilised world is going to sit back like it did over Rwanda, and Darfur, and The Congo, and Uganda, and Zimbabwe, and on and on and on.

Of course, they're none of them important, because they have no purchasing power, so we can't make a profit out of them, so why bother, right?

A concerted effort by all concerned would be needed, but both sides COULD be brought to heel, but that would deprive some pretty big corporations of the money they make supplying Israel with the means to smash their neighbours.

AND THAT WOULD NEVER DO!!

I just hope the NEW president has more integrity than his chiselling, crooked predecessor. I really do.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: kendall
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 09:29 PM

I stand by what I posted.
When the redcoats marched on Concord and Lexington a confrontation took place. Shots were fired and the redcoats retreated back to Boston. They were constantly fired upon from trees and boulders by the natives. They had no tactics to counter these methods and all they could do was to march as fast as they could back to Boston.
This is no myth.
Foreign help? Baron Von Steuben, a Prussian, trained Washington's army, but he had no army to add to the mix.
Washington himself held the Continental army together during the winter at Valley Forge by his own will.

The French, as I recall, entered the war late in the game and helped to trap the British under Cornwallis at Yorktown.

As you said, Teribus, the main weapon that Washington had was the fact that the people of England did not support their government in fighting the colonists. Their supply line was impossibly long, and they didn't have enough help from the loyalists here.To King George the third, Washington was a terrorist!
Sound familiar?

Old downeast proverb,
"The smallest dog can piss on the biggest building"

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 10:20 PM

ummmmm..

"Why does America support Israel like it does?
Israel serves....etc...etc.."

This your personal opinion, I hope. Where DID you acquire the information as to why America thinks or acts as it does? Do you read all the collective minds of the administration?

For that matter, how does ANYONE get off suggesting that they know what the 'true' motives are of any side in this idiocy?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: heatherblether
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 04:41 AM

To Bill
The evidence about Israel's role on behalf of the USA is plain to see in the vast amounts of military arms and equipment it receives. It also receives record breaking amounts of economic support from Washington.

By the end of the 20th century it had received some 100 billion dollars worth of economic supplies.

In 1981 the then president of the USA Ronald Reagan broke cover and declared
" with a combat hardened military,Israel is a force in the Middle East that actually is a benefit to us. If there was not Israel with that force we'd have to supply that with our own,so that this is not just altruism on our part"
Aruri , Naseer Dishonest Broker :The US Role in Israel And Palestine, South End Press 2003

It is also clear that from the very earliest beginnings that the Zionists in pre Israel and the state of Israel itself has taken the side of Imperialism against those in the Middle East who were trying to throw out their colonial masters in for example French owned Algeria where the deeply racist "colons" were later to form the backbone of the "Front National in France.

It was the 1967 war that clinched Israel's role as America's main military asset in the Middle East. The USA pumped military equipment into Israel and as the infamous Henry Kissinger explained about the 1973 war
"The United States saved Israel from collapse at the end of the first week by our arms supply....Some have claimed it was American strategy to produce a stalemate in the 1973 war.This is absolutely wrong .What we wanted was the most massive Arab defeat possible ...we sought to break up the Arab united front">
{MERIP Report 1981

There is agreat deal more about the role of the USA in supporting Israel and its worthwhile reminding ourselves about its resupplying of weapons to Israel during the invasion of Lebanon in 2006.

You describe this conflict as "idiocy" but as far as I can see it is the result of a longterm set of policies designed to dehumanise the people of Palestine and remove them from their homeland...but of course they wont go quietly and I dont think the strategic plan is going to work.
ifor
.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 06:49 AM

"Four hundred dead in a couple of days, and it don't seem that there are many Hamas militants among 'em."


You are obviously getting figures from somewhere other than the news reports.

Pray tell how you decided on these to make up?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 07:44 AM

"Palestinians reported some two dozen airstrikes in Gaza on Thursday. One militant was killed and 10 wounded in Gaza City, while an airstrike in northern Gaza killed three members of a rocket-launching cell, Palestinian medical officials said. The attack took place about 150 yards from a hospital and wounded 12 bystanders. The Israeli army has repeatedly said militants use civilian areas for cover."

But then, rocket launchers are not military targets, are they?


"Of the 696 Palestinians killed since Dec. 27, some 350 were civilians, among them 130 children, according to Palestinian medical officials. "


"From: Don(Wyziwyg)T - PM
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 07:19 PM

Four hundred dead in a couple of days, and it don't seem that there are many Hamas militants among 'em."



The actual numbers are bad enough (NOTE I use the PALESTINIAN numbers): Why do some here feel the need to lie about them? In a perfect world, NO civilians would be killed: But them, when rockets and morters are launched from schools and mosques, the counter-fire is likely to harm those that are being used as shields. That may be why the Geneva Conventions prohibit what Hamas has been doing.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: heatherblether
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 07:57 AM

Rescuers today pulled out 12 bodies from a house smashed by shellfire.Alongside the bodies of the dead were 4 very young children too weak to stand who were waiting alongside their dead mothers.
The Red Cross has accused Israel of failing to meet its international obligations to the civilian populations which is another way of saying that war crimes are being committed in Gaza by the armed might of Israel.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 07:59 AM

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/postglobal/yossi_melman/2009/01/hamas_benefits_from_palestinia.html



Since there is no lack of justification here for Hamas, perhaps we can look at the other viewpoint...

"Israel had no choice but to defend itself. Many in the world's public opinion bash and accuse Israel of using disproportional and excessive force. This is a false accusation. It is Hamas which refuses to lay down its weapons and shows no respect for the very civilian population that it claims to represent. Hamas leaders have not shown their faces in public. They have disconnected themselves from their own people. They have stopped functioning and have cowardly taken shelters in hospitals and kindergartens, using women and children as human shields. "



"Israel is ready to stop the war immediately. Israel has no desire to reoccupy Gaza. Israel knows that it can't eliminate Hamas as a force. Israeli demands are simple, limited and modest: stop shelling Israeli towns and villages and stop smuggling into Gaza Iranian-made and supported weapons and rockets. If these two terms are met, a long and credible cease fire can be brokered within a day or two."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 08:00 AM

This commentary by Michael Coren is from today's National Post.

*****
Imperfect, but no bully

By Michael Coren

So we had it again. The world putting on its selfrighteous coat so that it could hide its naked hypocrisy. Israel bad, violent and strong; Palestinians good, peaceful and weak. Instant demonstrations outside Israeli embassies and consulates when hundreds were killed in response to years of Hamas terror, yet not even a handful of protestors outside offices belonging to Sudan, Syria or Iran, where hundreds of thousands have been slaughtered.

Of course the innocent died in the past 13 days, but in the pursuit of the guilty. As opposed to Hamas and its campaign to mass murder only the innocent. Ask why both Egypt and the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank did so little to counter Israel's actions, and may have given tacit or even active approval to the campaign. Because unlike Marxist Mary in Toronto and Jew-hating Jack in Montreal, they know the reality of the situation.

Israel left Gaza and prayed that peace would be established. Hamas launched its missiles into Israeli schools, homes and hospitals within hours. Supporters of the Palestinians argued that few Israelis were being killed so there shouldn't be complaints. Finally Israel responded. One of the reasons it took so long is that it was gathering intelligence so as to harm as few civilians as possible.
So why the lack of balance and the lies in the media? Any journalist who has worked in Israel and its neighbours in the past 20 years knows certain things that are seldom reported. Take, for example, the endearing hotel habits of the PLO. Reporters would stay at a grand venue just outside the walls of the Old City of Jerusalem. When they came to pay their bill they would be told that they had been guests of free Palestine, but they would be given a receipt in case they might want to claim something on their expense account.

It doesn't help matters that Western journalists refer to Israeli soldiers as "Shlomo." It means Solomon but is spoken with an attempt at derisory generalization rather than admiration for wisdom. Yet in some ways the Israelis deserve it: They are dreadful at the propaganda game. Israeli officials keep journalists away from their dead and dying, while Arab officials tend to lead them by the hand to the killing fields.

Never was this more acute than with the case of Samir Kuntar, the Hezbollah "militant" on top of Hassan Nasrallah's "must free" list of Israeli prisoners. In 1979, he and his gang broke into the home of the Haran family in northern Israel. They took Danny Haran and his four-year-old son Anat to the beach and bashed the boy's brains out on the rocks while his father watched. They then shot the man to death. Smadar Haran, the mother, hid in a loft with the couple's two-year-old daughter. Holding her mouth over terrified Yael's mouth in an attempt to save her, Smadar smothered her daughter to death.
No photos were given to the press and this incident is never mentioned when prisoner exchange deals are discussed. Kuntar is now a celebrated guest of the Lebanese government and revered throughout Gaza. This will not be explained as we are told by journalists based in the Middle East that Israel refuses to compromise. Remember that hardly any of these journalists have apologized for describing the battle of Jenin in 2002 as "an unprecedented Israeli massacre." It was widely implied, even stated, that there were several hundreds if not thousands of dead Palestinian civilians.

It was soon revealed that only 56 Palestinians had been killed, most of them heavily armed. Israel had lost 23 soldiers, mainly because they had cleared the town house by house in an attempt to save innocent Palestinian lives.

Something similar is occurring in Gaza. It is staggering how quickly dead Hamas soldiers and policemen are stripped of their uniforms and transformed into social workers and poets. Detailed analyses of European media in the first seven days of the current conflict have shown that Israeli spokespeople were given a fraction of time compared to Palestinian representatives. And in countries such as Spain and Britain, the contempt for the Israeli position was almost palpable. I saw the cynicism of the Arab combatants and the fellow travelling credulity of Western reporters first-hand during the Hezbollah war in 2006, when the same bodies would appear again and again in different photos.

The nuances of journalistic language say a great deal. Reporters referred last week to "Americanmade" helicopters and F16s. Actually, the modifications made to these machines by the Israelis are enormous, but surely their place of origin is irrelevant. It is yet another way of making Israel appear the bully.

Which it isn't. It's an imperfect and besieged nation that was recreated as a Jewish homeland because the very countries now condemning it for its self-defence refused for 1,500 years to treat Jews as human beings. Just six months ago, I stood yards from where Israel is now trying to smash the Hamas military machine and asked an Israeli doctor who had been forcibly removed from Gaza by her own government if she was bitter. "No, no, no," she replied. "Not bitter, only resigned. Resigned to the fact that the fashion of turning on the Jews and judging them with a unique unfairness seems to come around every generation or so." The doctor then walked away to attend the funeral of a young mother killed by a Hamas terror attack. No journalists bothered to turn up.

Michael Coren appears every weeknight on the Michael Coren Show, 8 p.m., on CTS. www.michaelcoren.com

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 08:02 AM

"But minutes after the three-hour truce was set to begin at 1 p.m., Israeli forces fired at militants in the Hamas-ruled Palestinian territory.

The strikes came after militants targeted Israeli forces "almost immediately," Israeli Defense Ministry spokesman Peter Lerner said.

Lerner had previously said Israeli forces would respond to any aggression directed at them during the scheduled pause in activities in Gaza."





So Israel broke the truce, firing on militants- who just happened to have "targeted" the IDF first, after being warned....

Sounds like there is a bias in the wording of this report.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 08:07 AM

"The Current Discussion: What's the most likely outcome of the Gaza invasion? A wider war? A Hamas defeat? Just more of the same?

Rather than make a prediction, I would like to address the rampant moral confusion regarding the Israel-Hamas war. Here is something from an email sent out by Isaac Luria of J Street, a left-wing Jewish group that claims to be pro-Israel, but also reflects a lot of thinking by journalists and well-meaning people:

Israel has a special place in my heart. I lived there last year while my wife was studying to be a rabbi. But I recognize that neither Israelis nor Palestinians have a monopoly on right or wrong. While there is nothing "right" in raining rockets on Israeli families or dispatching suicide bombers, there is nothing "right" in punishing a million and a half already-suffering Gazans for the actions of the extremists among them.

The equation of the actions of Hamas and Israel is disgusting. But take Jews and Israel out of it. Imagine terrorist group A attacking country B, where A is trying to maximize civilian casualties on both sides and B is trying to minimize civilian casualties on both sides. What sort of moral judgment would have trouble distinguishing between the two?

The Palestinian victims of this war know better. Watch this video, broadcast on Palestinian TV, no less, of a girl whose 4-year-old sister died next to her in their home. She says, "Hamas is the cause, in the first place, of all wars." Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas said he pleaded with Hamas "don't stop the ceasefire, the ceasefire must continue and not stop, in order to avoid what has happened, and if only we had avoided it." Hamas openly justifies using women and children as human shields, and is likely at this moment hiding and shooting at Israelis from hospitals and mosques.

By taking on Hamas, Israelis deserve the gratitude of decent people everywhere. More than that, by sending in troops to fight them on the ground, Israel is risking its precious soldiers to minimize Palestinian casualties. These soldiers risk becoming martyrs to human rights and the Geneva Convention because they are fighting in places where other countries, including the U.S., might have called in an artillery or air strike and been done with it. We should be proud of them and least have the decency to honor their sacrifice.

Finally, these soldiers are doing a service for humanity, not just for the Israelis. A defeat of Hamas is a defeat of it sponsor, Iran. It is no substitute for using economic, diplomatic, and - only if necessary - military means to prevent Iran, the world's primary terrorist regime, from going nuclear. But it should help concentrate minds regarding the necessity of doing so. The Israeli wars with Hamas and Hezbullah are only holding actions. The only way to give peace in the region real hope is to defeat the main source of war and terrorism, and that is the regime in Tehran."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: kendall
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 08:22 AM

I keep hearing a theory that the main reason we support Israel is because it would be political suicide to not support Israel. There is a huge Jewish voting block in this country, and in fact, there are more Jews in NYC than in Tel Aviv.

Comments?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 08:24 AM

Nearly a third of the deaths -- 30 percent -- are women and children, according to the U.N. Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs, citing statistics released Tuesday by the Palestinian Ministry of Health."

Seven Israeli soldiers and three civilians have been killed since the operation began, the Israeli military reported"


So, the Gazans have killed 30% civilians? Sounds like they have to be deliberatly targeting them, since when Israeli forces kill 30% civilians it is proof that they are....

But where are the demonstrations against Hamas, and the tear-jerking reports?

Oh, yeah, dead Jews don't matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 08:42 AM

Wow, heatherblether!!!

Just read the article in the Washington Post this morning about those civilans who were found dead in those houses...

In a rare move, the International Committee of the Red Cross is accusing Israel of "fail(ing) to meet its obligation under international humanatarian law to care for and evaculate the wounded"...

Apparentlt, the Israeli miliatry blocked ambulances from getting to theses people for ***4 days***, during which time as many of the 15 civilian corpses died with their kids and/or parents watching...

This is why I say that Israel is loosing this war... Just as the US's reputation has taken a nose-dive over Iraq, this will come back to haunt Israel...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 10:21 AM

""I keep hearing a theory that the main reason we support Israel is because it would be political suicide to not support Israel. There is a huge Jewish voting block in this country, and in fact, there are more Jews in NYC than in Tel Aviv.

Comments?""

Just one Kendall. If you are going to keep a guard dog to stop nasty neighbours trespassing, it might be clever to keep it on a leash till you have it trained to behave.

Giving it free run of the yard may be nice for the animal, but it's hell on mailmen and newspaper boys.

I can't believe that the Jewish lobby in the US is powerful enough to bring down a government. Not quite.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 10:35 AM

I give up.... some of you just simply had your side chosen before all this started, and thus interpret everything YOUR side does as **justified**.

"That mailman MUST have kicked my dog!"

"No...your dog is mean, and attacks anyone he 'thinks' is intruding in **HIS** space."

------------------------------------------------------------------------

The most telling comment so far:

"I would have joined a terrorist organization."

Ehud Barak's response to Gideon Levy, a columnist for the Ha'aretz newspaper, when Barak was asked what he would have done if he had been born a Palestinian.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: kendall
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 11:59 AM

That is not my theory. I hear it from time to time, that's all.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Riginslinger
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 12:16 PM

"I can't believe that the Jewish lobby in the US is powerful enough to bring down a government. Not quite."


             It doesn't need a lobby. Just count the number of Jews in the US Senate.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: heatherblether
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 12:40 PM

The UKs Daily Telegraph has carried a story about rescue workers in Gaza discovering a house with some 50 dead bodies inside.Apparently the extended family were ordered to gather together in the house on sunday but then the house was attacked with shellfire on monday.
There were still a a few survivors present but rescuers from the Red Crescent Society were only able to reach the scene today .The site was only 20 metres from Israeli positions and the paramedics had to flee when they fired upon by the Israelis .They had to leave some of the wounded behind.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: heric
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 01:46 PM

"I would have joined a terrorist organization."


Telling and layered. He offered it up freely for wide circulation.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 01:49 PM

Here's a link to another Daily Telegraph story today. (NB, the Daily Telegraph is very much a Conserative paper - no question of any "liberal bias" here)UN drivers killed during three-hour Gaza 'ceasefire':

Humanitarian shipments into Gaza were halted immediately after two forklift drivers died when the convoy of aid was targeted.

It came as Israel was subjected to unusually harsh criticism by two leading international agencies for orchestrating a level of violence in Gaza that has forced the collapse of essential services.

The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) said civilians were dying because access to conflict zones was impossible during offensive operations.

Both bodies accused Israel of violations of international law.

The ICRC produced a graphic account of starving children stranded for days by the corpses of their parents at one bombed building in the Zeitoun refugee camp.

It said officials from its local partner, the Palestinian Red Crescent Society, had tried to gain access to the area since it was shelled on Saturday. Soldiers in sniper positions overlooked the houses, which were isolated by a dirt berm.

Pierre Wettach, the ICRC regional director said, it was impossible for Israel to be unaware of the condition of the children when they were found during the lunchtime pause in fighting...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Woolyhead
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 01:51 PM

There is no right in these situations, but let me please point out a few facts that might make you think and that are never reported in the media, certainly I have never heard them in th UK.

When Israel left the land that is now Gaza to the people and withdrew 'Israelis' (if you want to read it as Jews), as was reported kicking & screaming in many cases, they left behind some of the most technologically advanced greenhouses in the world. What happended to them? Were they taken over & maintained & used to grow food not only for those citizens in the area, but also to export from Gaza City to bring wealth and jobs to the people of Gaza, which was the intention? No. They were destroyed completely. From this one incident what can we read? That the Palestinians have thier own technology and structure to build their own export markets or that they hate the Israelis & would simply do anything in their power to try to bring world sympathy to their own downtrodden selves? You make your own judgement on this one case alone, but there are others.

As so often happens I believe Golda Meier's comments have been taken out of context. Her attitude was this - how many people would condone sending out their own children with enough high explosives strapped to their bodies to not only kill themselves, but also to inflict as much damage to as many innocent civilians as possible? Yes women & children in the main is their aim, or why would they strike at supermarkets, family restaurants etc.

Are any of you interested in your family history & have been trying to compile family trees? If so I wonder how many of you have found whole parts of your family where the line ends with 'perished in the Holocaust' There are many of these in my family tree. I don't know exactly how many yet as I haven't had the heart to actually count them. This is not the first, nor will it probably be the last time that Jews are murdered wholesale for their beliefs. We are surely the most persecuted single group of people throughout history. Why? You go figure & come back to me with a sensible adult answer, because believe me I and I'm sure many of my fellow religionists are surely at a loss to know.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 02:16 PM

You know Bill D, if you check back on my comments you will actually find that I have chosen NO side. I have said they are both bloody mad.

What does p**s me off, is the constant assertions that Israel is doing what any country under fire WOULD do, and therefor somehow justified in a campaign of mass murder. One MIGHT even suggest that Hamas is only doing what any oppressed and stifled minority WOULD do, and with no less justification.

The truth is BOTH ARE WRONG, and since neither is going to back down voluntarily until the other is destroyed(which in practical terms means Gaza will be devastated), it behoves the rest of us to STOP supporting mayhem and bloodshed, and MAKE them sit down and negotiate.

This will never happen while the US government pats Israel on the head and looks the other way.

BB, you should look and listen to the victims of these attacks, speaking from their shattered homes. They are so much more credible than your preferred pseudo-news channels.

Like the woman on BBC News at 6pm, who had just seen her husband die, and said "They are not going after Hamas, they are killing everyone".

Also the UN reports about 18 wounded civilians left to die after being ignored by the troops.

Anyone with military experience knows you DON'T leave hostiles to your rear, so they KNEW the house was full of civilians, and failed to offer support as they should have under international law.

I suppose that too is justifiable in retaliation for rocket attacks, most of which exploded in open fields, or scared a few goats?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 02:31 PM

From this one incident what can we read? That depoends depends on whether what we read matches what actually happened.

Those greenhouses? Israel cut off the water supply to them, so that all the crops promptly died. Without water supplies greenhouses aren't of any use.   Subsequent to this happening the contents of the greenhouses, plastic sheets, pumps whatever, were taken away by Gaza people - you can call that looting or salvage according to how you want to spin the story(shades of the reporting about New Orleans after Katrina...)

See this story from an Israeli source back in 2005/ Israel shuts off water, dries Gaza greenhouses

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 02:34 PM

"Like the woman on BBC News at 6pm, who had just seen her husband die, and said "They are not going after Hamas, they are killing everyone"."


Don T,

Where are the interviews with Israelis under daily rocket attack for years?

You claim the Israelis have such a powerful military, then post statments that prove otherwise ( by your standards):

The population of Gaza is 1.5 million (1,500,000). In 12 days of attacks, thousands of bombs dropped, not to metion morters, bullets, tanks, and artillary, the IDF has killed HOW MANY? and of that less than 700, HOW MANY were civilians? LESS THAN HALF.

So trying to kill everyone gets 350 killed in all this combat.

I think this proves that the interviews are biased, and that the IDF is making every possible effort to NOT kill civilians- UNLIKE HAMAS.

All civilian casualties are to be regretted- but Hamas bears the blame.

Or don't yopu believe eyewitness reports of Palestinians?

"The Palestinian victims of this war know better. Watch this video, broadcast on Palestinian TV, no less, of a girl whose 4-year-old sister died next to her in their home. She says, "Hamas is the cause, in the first place, of all wars." Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas said he pleaded with Hamas "don't stop the ceasefire, the ceasefire must continue and not stop, in order to avoid what has happened, and if only we had avoided it." Hamas openly justifies using women and children as human shields, and is likely at this moment hiding and shooting at Israelis from hospitals and mosques."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 02:44 PM

I keep hearing a theory that the main reason we support Israel is because it would be political suicide to not support Israel. There is a huge Jewish voting block in this country, and in fact, there are more Jews in NYC than in Tel Aviv.

Comments?

There are also more Italians in NYC than in Rome.

Your comment about the "Jewish voting block" is offensive. Yeah, yeah, the Jews control the U.S. government.

The fact is there are about 6 million Jews in the United States. There are about 10 million Muslims.

If U.S. support for Israel was just about pandering to Jewish voters, it would be gone in a minute.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 02:54 PM

That's right BB. Do what you always do, and ignore pertinent factors to skew the case.

1,500,000 in Gaza, and how many square miles is that BB. Checking with google maps I make it 150 approximately. That works out at 10000 per square mile.

Not such a surprise then, that attacking over a small part of the border, the casualties are not in thousands, but then you KNEW that.

If I want to know what your opinion will be on any subject, all I have to do is look at the republican, gung ho, warmongering press outlets and there's your opinion, pre-digested.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 03:30 PM

And all I have to do is read the pro-Palestinian, anti-Jewish press to get your opinion, obviously.

You now claim the IDF is" attacking over a small part of the border,",

so why would there be any problems with supplies or medical care? How do you account for all the destruction, when YOU claim they are attacking less than a fraction of a square mile? (less than 1/10th of a square mile, I guess)

Don, you are not stupid: If the IDF was targeting civilians, there would be tens to hundreds of thousand dead by now. As usual, the IDF is risking Israeli lives to keep the number of civilian casualties as low as possible- AND Hamas is trying to increase that number to the most it can, for propaganda reasons.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 04:12 PM

" Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas said he pleaded with Hamas "don't stop the ceasefire, the ceasefire must continue and not stop, in order to avoid what has happened, and if only we had avoided it." Hamas openly justifies using women and children as human shields, and is likely at this moment hiding and shooting at Israelis from hospitals and mosques."

Not my choice of words, Juicy Brucie. Yours.

But Israel destroys the infrastructure for all occupants of Gaza, not just those firing puny rockets.

This not war. It is genocide. It is a final solution.

And if one is to speak of on the one hand Jews and on the other hand Muslims - addressing the USA of course -

A. Of which are there more in Congress and the Senate
B. Of which are there more in the Adminstration
C. Of which are there more in the media?


The 7 days war was a witty and robust put down of an oppressor of Israel. This is slaughter of the substantially defenceless, who have no homes, no infrastructure, no trade, no commerce, no way to feed themselves or even for aid to reach them. The only choice for Gazans is to struggle or die.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 04:18 PM

Pretty clearly the IDF isn't trying to kill as many civilians as possible, though it must feel that way when your family has been wiped out by them. Just as it's pretty clear that Hamas aren't trying to kill as many Israelis as possible.

However it also seems pretty clear in both cases that they aren't particularly worried about killing civilians, and they aren't trying too hard to kill as few civilians as possible either.

The two sides in this conflict have a great deal in common, taking into account their different circumstances. Ehud Barak's comment when asked what he would have done if he had been a Palestinian was an honest and revealing one: "I would have joined a terrorist organization."   And of course back in the days of the British Mandate, that is precisely what his predecessors did.

In a real sense this has to be recognised for what it is - a civil war. And they are liable to be the worst wars of all, and typically religion is seen as defining the sides.

There's no point in demonising adversaries just because the brutal and horrible things they feel driven to do are different from the brutal and horrible things your own side feels driven to do. And no point in disguising the truth that they are indeed brutal and horrible things to do.

The important thing to realise in this internecine conflict is that these actions aren't just brutal and horrible, they are also self-defeating and futile.

Those hundreds of dead children aren't some tragic price to be paid for Israel's survival, or for Palestine's freedom. The innocent dead on both sides are the very thing that most threatens Israel's survival and Palestine's freedom.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 04:21 PM

In these times of interconnected economies and interests and where perceptions can mean alot to the international community, I'd say that Israel, if it hasn't lost this war yet, is on th evrge of loosing it... Israel isn't winning the hearts and minds of goo many folks these days... The story line has blown up in it's face and right now it Israel looks as if a country being lef by very mean people and, frankly, I don't see anything now that Israel can do to reverse the selg-inflicted wounds...

It should never have tried to starve the Palestians out in the first place... The US has treated it's own indiginous people better and we all know that treatment has not been very good...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Big Mick
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 04:34 PM

With respect to both sides of this arguement, and realizing the generalist nature of my comment, it is time for an intervention. In fact it is long past time. The parties have no ability to resolve the issues, there is legitimacy to both sides, or at least they believe they have a rationale on both sides. An effective US policy would be to place ourselves between the combatants, declaring that the Palestinians have the right to a homeland, and the Israeli's have a right to the same and to exist. We should do so fully recognizing the legitimate aims of both, and the legitimate criticisms of both. I am hopeful that President Obama will use our foreign aid, diplomatic corps, and military to do just that. The causes of this are too shrouded by the mists of propaganda and time to do anything else.

You can't shoot missiles at someone, hide in churches and behind children, and expect to get sympathy. Neither can you wield an indiscrimate axe, slay innocents, and destroy their ability to live with the most basic requirements of life, and expect the world to see you as a just avenger. Enough already.

OK, I am off the "broad characterizations" soapbox and will return to the cave.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 04:36 PM

"I keep hearing a theory that the main reason we support Israel is because it would be political suicide to not support Israel. There is a huge Jewish voting block in this country, and in fact, there are more Jews in NYC than in Tel Aviv.

Comments?" - Kendall

The supposed "HUGE" Jewish voting block you speak of if all were of voting age amounts to about 2.1% of the total population. And guess what Kendall the vast majority of them have a track record of voting Democrat.

Another one of your myths.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 04:41 PM

The US has treated it's own indigenous people better

Let's not drift off into American hostory, but it is a releavnt parallel, and I think is one factor that may underlie how many Americans seem to see this tragic conflict.

I think that Bobert's comment there is a bit questionable though, looking at the period when the Native Americans were still capable of armed resistance. It'd be equally questionable to say the US treated them worse either. Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 06:31 PM

Well, McGee.... The movies are filled with Native Americans shootin' up wagon trains and white women and all that but reality is that the white people killed or imprisoned (reservations) Native Americans more in porportion to what we are seein' in Gaza...

And, Mick... You are exactly correct... Israel is incapable of stopping itself... It has spun its retionale and now it is Hell bent on taking out Hamas even if it has to kill every last Palestinian in doing it... This is no longer about Hamas... It's about genocide...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: heatherblether
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 07:14 PM

To Woolyhead
I would like to comment on a few of the points you have raised in your above posting.

Firstly the few thousands Israeli settlers who withdrew from Gaza were there in the first place as armed paramilitaries with their families.How arrogant they were.

They with the help of the Israeli army ruled a city of over a million people and made life there intolerable for the Palestinian Gazans.

The Palestinians were restricted to a handful of beaches .Water supplies were grabbed by the settlers and reduced for the Gazans.It was said that the settlerrs cattle were allowed more water than the Gazans.Roadblocks were set up on a permanent basis across Gaza making even short journeys last hours at a time.

But even more to the point it is simply not true that the Israelis left Gaza.

Even after the Settlers were withdrawn the Israelis still controlled most of the border and denied permission Gazans to enter or leave their city by land,sea or air. Its airport for example was wrecked by Israeli attacks several years ago. Vessels were denied entry to the Gazan waterfront and Palestinian fishing boats were attacked if they tried to fish off the coast. Gaza has been in an economic stranglehold for years and Israel has been pulling the noose ever tighter.

It has also launched raids and missiles against Gaza prior to the invasion causing death,injury and trauma on a massive scale .Medical aid was denied and Palestinian patients who tried to leave for urgent medical treatment were refused permission to leave. Many of these patients died.What sort of policy is that?


The Jewish people suffered the most appalling holocaust at the hands of the nazis during the war. Their suffering was caused by a nazi european ideology that was anti semitic andd savage to its core.

The Palestinian people were innocent of this dreadful crime against humanity.You know they were. They are still paying the price for a crime they did not commit as a people decades after the holocaust.

But I must say the mass murder being committed against the civilian population of Gaza who are being killed in their hundreds and maimed in their thousands reminds me of the nazi barbarism . The indiscrimiate missile and bomb attacks against schools and hospitals; the bombing of complete neighbourhoods and the callous indifference by young fighting men to the deaths of children in front of them is sick. Something is rotten in the state of Israel.

The tactic of mass bombing of civilians was introduced by the nazis at Guernica in Spain in 1936 and what we are seeing in Gaza is more of the same but with greater firepower.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: artbrooks
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 07:39 PM

I agree entirely with Big Mick - but I don't recognize his comments in Bobert's statement of agreement. This thread, like the other (parallel) one, is entirely polarized. There is no one at all here who demonstrates any interest in moving ahead rather than backwards, or in solving the problem rather than casting blame. I admit to being a historical accuracy pedant, but it really doesn't appear that anyone participating in this discussion is data-driven, nor do they check Fox News and Al Jazeera (or vice versa) before spouting whatever party line they happen to buy. Sorry folks, but I'm out of here.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: kendall
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 07:59 PM

Teribus, go back and re read what I posted. I did not say, nor did I imply that the theory about the Jewish voting block was my theory. In fact, I said just the opposite. I repeat, IT IS NOT MY THEORY.It is simply something that some people believe, just as, contrary to the evidence, many people still believe that O'Bama is a Muslim.

My own theory is simply that we support Israel because we have a connection through our beliefs. We have no such belief connection with Muslims.

I can't make it any planer than that.
Furthermore, if you still insist that what I posted about the revolution is a myth, offer some evidence to prove me wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: kendall
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 08:02 PM

C Ham, I didn't mean to leave you out. The statement that my comment was offensive is off base too. It was NOT MY comment.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 08:10 PM

"I agree entirely with Big Mick "..."There is no one at all here who demonstrates any interest in moving ahead rather than backwards"

There seems to be some inconsistency between those two statements.

I wouldn't regard either Fox News or Al Jazeera as that reliable sources of data from what I've seen of then, more especially the former.

Arguing back and forth about who is to blame in general does seem a bit pointless. Correcting what seem to us to be errors of fact has more point to it, and there are a lot of those around.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 08:15 PM

Well, people are certainly saying and also reading things in an increasingly polarized fashion, and engaging in hyperbole. But I think Mr. McGrath's contribution of 4:18 deserves commendation.



(One might disagree (or be uncertain) whether "they aren't trying too hard [hard enough] to kill as few civilians as possible," but the school incident is certainly disconcerting.)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 08:17 PM

Well, Art, what Mick said was that itr was foing to take an intervention to stop this... I agreed... It will...

Answer me this one... Who can call off the occupation of Gaza??? Hint... It ain't the Palestinians... So that leaves us with one other party: the Iaraelis... Unless, of course, you nave another party in mind that can call this thing off???

If so, who???

So, yeah... It is up to Israel to either press on or not... No other party... Mick said it would take intervention... I agreed...

Hey, I don't have an axe to grind here other than observing that it is Israel that holds the cards without intervention...

Yes, when I read the Washington Post today about the Israeli army keeping ambulances from getting to wounded civilians and the Unternation Red Cross portesting the actions I see a very bad PR situation for Israel... The kind that turns hearts and minds...

Like I said... I am not on one side or another... Just an observer who is really pissed off that the US disengaged under Bush from trying to move this very difficult situation toward somthing that resembles peace...

Because I don't walk the the Israeli story line I find being called a polorized or partisan person is personally insulting and a very desperate arguing point...

Reminds me of "You are with us or against us..."

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 08:34 PM

I keep musing over ifor's statement that there are two options: Fighting or talking. I'm beginning to suspect there are much more important options: in behavior (and restraint). Maybe lots of little things, like not shutting off water supplies to high tech greenhouses (and thousands of other little examples between these neighbors, probably), are not being attended to properly, DESPITE the talking and screaming and threats and posturing.

I'm just saying ~maybe~ and thowing it out there. This is all still very mysterious to me after a lifetime of reading it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 09:56 PM

"You know Bill D, if you check back on my comments you will actually find that I have chosen NO side. I have said they are both bloody mad."

yes Don T...I realize YOU made the point. I was overly general in my cynical sweep. OTHERS were choosing sides. Several of us tried to make the point, but it did little good.





*back to lurking*

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 02:10 AM

300 Up

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 03:01 AM

We didn't call it off but the UN just voted 14 out of 15 for the Israeli's to pull out. We (the US) abstained from voting but Condie did say that we backed the resolution & the spirit of it (Then why didn't we vote for it???). Hopefully the aid can now start flowing in. It's a shmefull act for the blanket bombing of so many innocent. Oh, now I understand why we didn't vote for such aggression to stop. When a nation bombs the innocent citizens of another nation under the guise of defeating terrorism it is actually a terrorist action they are taking on themselves. Such is the shape of the world we live in, shame. These actions were backed by hell. Thank God some one has but a hold on them.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 07:13 AM

"The tactic of mass bombing of civilians was introduced by the nazis at Guernica in Spain in 1936 and what we are seeing in Gaza is more of the same but with greater firepower."

An incorrect assessment, as any person with any knowledge of what "mass bombing" means.


ifor, there ARE valid arguements you might use ( though I may differ as to their validity). Why do you feel the need to make blatent false claims (lies) to "win" your point? Is your arguement so weak that only lies can possibly support it?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 07:14 AM

"Fox News and Al Jazeera "

Actually, I do- despite claims by people who don't know me well enough to know.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 07:28 AM

from AlJazeera reports BEFORE the Israeli attacks...

Hard to argue that Israel broke the that truce, I guess.

.....................................................
UPDATED ON:
Sunday, December 21, 2008
15:24 Mecca time, 12:24 GMT
   News Middle East




Gaza rockets hit southern Israel


The Islamic Jihad group has claimed
responsibility for the attack [AFP]

Eight rockets and mortars fired from Gaza have hit towns in southern Israel, with one house being severely damaged in Sderot, Israeli rescue service workers have said.

No one was injured in the attack, which began at about 7am (0500GMT) on Sunday, two days after the official end of a truce between Israel and Hamas, which controls the Gaza Strip.

A migrant worker was wounded by shrapnel in a separate rocket attack on a Kibbutz, an Israeli farming co-operative.

The Islamic Jihad group claimed responsibility for the attacks.

Air raid launched

Ayman Mohyeldin, Al Jazeera's correspondent in the Gaza Strip, said that the Israeli military launched an air raid into Gaza, targeting a rocket firing squad.

There were no immediate reports of casualties.

More than 30 rockets were fired from Gaza into Israel on Saturday, while one Palestinian fighter was killed in an Israeli air raid.

Those respective attacks came a day after a six-month-old ceasefire between Israel and Hamas ended.

Tel Aviv has said will not take military action if the Palestinian fighters hold their fire, but it has said it will begin a dedicated military operation in Gaza if rocket fire barrages continue.

"The scenarios are clear, the plans are clear, the determination is clear, and so are the ramifications of each of the steps. A responsible government is not happy to go to war, but does not evade it," Ehud Olmert, Israel's prime minister, said in his weekly cabinet meeting on Sunday.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 07:29 AM

oh.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2008/12/2008122172946123995.html

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 07:41 AM

Washington Post


Endgame in Gaza

By Charles Krauthammer
Friday, January 9, 2009; Page A17

Israel's leaders have purposely obscured their war aims in Gaza. But there are only two possible endgames: (A) a Lebanon-like cessation of hostilities to be supervised by international observers, or (B) the disintegration of Hamas rule in Gaza.

Hard Lesson for Israel

Under tremendous international pressure -- including from an increasingly wobbly U.S. State Department -- the government of Ehud Olmert has begun hinting that it is receptive to a French-Egyptian cease-fire plan, essentially acquiescing to Endgame A.

That would be a terrible mistake.

It would fail on its own terms. It would have the same elements as the phony peace in Lebanon: an international force that abjures any meaningful use of force, an arms embargo under which arms will most assuredly flood in, and a cessation of hostilities until the terrorist side is rearmed and ready to initiate the next round of hostilities.

The U.N.-mandated disarmament of Hezbollah in Lebanon is a well-known farce. Not only have foreign forces not stopped Hezbollah's massive rearmament, their very presence makes it impossible for Israel to take any preventive military action, lest it accidentally hit a blue-helmeted Belgian crossing guard.

The "international community" is now pushing very hard for a Gaza replay of that charade. Does anyone imagine that international monitors will risk their lives to prevent weapons smuggling? To arrest terrorists? To engage in shootouts with rocket-launching teams attacking Israeli civilians across the Gaza border?

Of course not. Weapons will continue to be smuggled. Deeper and more secure fortifications will be built for the next round. Mosques, schools and hospitals will again be used for weapons storage and terrorist safe havens. Do you think French "peacekeepers" are going to raid them?

(more)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/08/AR2009010802993.html

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 08:12 AM

"A wide gap separates the reality of Israel's actions from the rhetoric of its spokesmen. It was not Hamas but the IDF that broke the ceasefire. It did so by a raid into Gaza on 4 November that killed six Hamas men."

Quote from a lengthy article by "Oxford professor of international relations Avi Shlaim (who) served in the Israeli army and has never questioned the state's legitimacy" : How Israel brought Gaza to the brink of humanitarian catastrophe Worth reading and pondering.

But it doesn't make too much sense to concentrate too much on the reasons why things have happened to the exclusion of the more significant question of what are their likely consequences. Whoever had the greater blame in the breakdown of that imperfect ceasefire the important thing is to stop the killing on both sides.

There's an often-quoted rhyme that sums up what I mean there:

Here lies the body of William Jay
Who died maintaining his right of way.
He was right, dead right, as he walked along.
But he's just as dead as if he'd been wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 08:23 AM

"the important thing is to stop the killing on both sides."

That I will agree with you on.


Please note 'BOTH'

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 09:03 AM

Oh Dear. Just catching up on news after switching off TV / computer for most of the holiday season. What a horrible mess.

My tuppence worth -

BBruce, I want to make one or two observations on your cut n' paste from Al Jazeera.

1) you will note that it was Islamic jihad and not Hamas, who broke the truce. Everyone here keeps rattling on about Hamas. Even Israel says it's 'after Hamas' - well I suppose we live in an era of brand-recognition.

2) there seems to be some confusion in the reporting: on the one hand it states Israel launched an air-strike against a rocket-launching group, no reports of any casualties. Then a line down, Israel launched an airstrike = 1 dead Palestinian

3) Tel Aviv said it wouldn't take any military action unless attacks continued (showing benevolent restraint) but a line later "in Israeli airstrikes" (isn't firing missiles / dropping bombs from planes considered a military action anymore? Then what the hell is?)

Anyway, here's another cut and paste by an Israeli guy who served in the Israeli army for a number of years but has a problem with what's going on at the moment:

"How Israel brought Gaza to the brink of humanitarian catastrophe


Oxford professor of international relations Avi Shlaim served in the
Israeli army and has never questioned the state's legitimacy. But
its merciless assault on Gaza has led him to devastating conclusions"

And here's the link:

Avi Shalim on Gaza in Guardian

Ok, that's my tuppence, I'll leave the rest to the experts

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 09:21 AM

1. Hamas did take responsibility for rocket attacks from Gaza. This was NOT the first breaking of the truce, but it is 4 days AFTER the end ( four days of Gazan missile attacks)

2. "Ayman Mohyeldin, Al Jazeera's correspondent in the Gaza Strip, said that the Israeli military launched an air raid into Gaza, targeting a rocket firing squad.

There were no immediate reports of casualties.

More than 30 rockets were fired from Gaza into Israel on Saturday, while one Palestinian fighter was killed in an Israeli air raid."

different days. The casualty was Saturday.

3. "Tel Aviv has said will not take military action if the Palestinian fighters hold their fire"

Launching rockets is NOT "holding their fire", is it????


Each of us have opinions as to the conclusions to be drawn from this conflict, and all have the right to express them. They are opinion, not fact- in ALL cases.

Facts are determined not by what people THINK, but by what they DO.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 09:37 AM

"A U.N. Security Council resolution approved Thursday night called urgently for an immediate, durable and fully respected cease-fire, leading to the full withdrawal of Israeli forces from Gaza. The U.S., Israel's closest ally and a veto-wielding member of the Security Council, abstained.

While the call is tantamount to a demand on the parties, Israel's troops won't be required to pull out of Gaza until there is a durable cease-fire. The resolution calls on U.N. member states to intensify efforts to provide guarantees in Gaza to sustain a lasting truce, including prevention of illicit trafficking in arms and ammunition."

"A Hamas spokesman said the Islamic militant group "is not interested" in the cease-fire because it was not consulted and the resolution did not meet its minimum demands."

"Osama Hamdan, a Hamas envoy to Lebanon, told the al-Arabiya satellite channel that the group "is not interested in it because it does not meet the demands of the movement."

Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri said the U.N. failed to consider the interests of the Palestinian people.

"This resolution doesn't mean that the war is over," he told the Al-Jazeera satellite television network. "We call on the Palestinian fighters to mobilize and be ready to face the offensive, and we urge the Arab masses to carry on with their angry protests."

Israel's government says any cease-fire must guarantee an end to rocket fire and arms smuggling into Gaza. During a six-month cease-fire that ended with the current operation, Hamas is thought to have used tunnels under the Egypt-Gaza border to smuggle in the medium-range rockets it is now using to hit deeper than ever inside Israel.

Hamas has said it won't accept any agreement that does not include the full opening Gaza's blockaded border crossings. Israel is unlikely to agree to that demand, as it would allow Hamas to strengthen its hold on the territory which it violently seized in June 2007.

With Israeli troops now in control of many of the open areas used by militants to launch rockets, gunman have continued shooting from inside populated neighborhoods."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090109/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 09:44 AM

UNR 1701 Lebanon Ceasefire


"Full implementation of the relevant provisions of the Taif Accords, and of resolutions 1559 (2004) and 1680 (2006), that require the disarmament of all armed groups in Lebanon, so that, pursuant to the Lebanese cabinet decision of July 27, 2006, there will be no weapons or authority in Lebanon other than that of the Lebanese state;
No foreign forces in Lebanon without the consent of its government;
No sales or supply of arms and related materiel to Lebanon except as authorized by its government;

"14. Calls upon the government of Lebanon to secure its borders and other entry points to prevent the entry in Lebanon without its consent of arms or related materiel and requests Unifil as authorised in paragraph 11 to assist the government of Lebanon at its request;

15. Decides further that all states shall take the necessary measures to prevent, by their nationals or from their territories or using their flag vessels or aircraft;


a. the sale or supply to any entity or individual in Lebanon of arms and related materiel of all types, including weapons and ammunition, military vehicles and equipment, paramilitary equipment, and spare parts for the aforementioned, whether or not originating in their territories, and;

b. the provision to any entity or individual in Lebanon of any technical training or assistance related to the provision, manufacture, maintenance or use of the items listed in subparagraph (a) above, except that these prohibitions shall not apply to arms, related material, training or assistance authorised by the government of Lebanon or by Unifil as authorised in paragraph 11; "

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 10:04 AM

Why does Hamas keep fireing rockets into Israel?

This article seems to shed some light...



"The trap that Olmert, Defense Minister Ehud Barak and Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni have created for themselves lies not just in Hamas's ability to withdraw its fighters and rockets into mosques, schools and densely populated neighborhoods, where they could probably survive weeks of bloody fighting or go underground. The larger fallacy is the persistent conceit among Israeli leaders that Hamas can somehow be wiped out by economic strangulation or force of arms.

Unlike al-Qaeda, Hamas is not merely a terrorist organization but a social and political movement with considerable support. Its ideology, however repugnant to Israel and the West, is shared by a considerable slice of the population in every Arab country from Morocco to Iraq. Because it is extremist, it thrives on war, the suffering it inflicts on Palestinians, and the anger generated by the endless, graphic and one-sided coverage of the Middle East's satellite television channels. Every day this war continues, Hamas grows politically stronger, as do its allies in other countries and its sponsor, Iran. "

"Though Israel must defend its citizens against rockets and suicide bombings, the only means of defeating Hamas are political. Palestinians, who have no history of attraction to religious fundamentalism, have to be persuaded to choose more moderate leaders, such as the secular Fatah. In the meantime, Hamas's existence must be tolerated, and it should be encouraged to channel its ambitions into politics rather than military activity. That means, yes, elections -- like those Hamas won in 2006, when it took control of the Palestinian legislature.

Those elections took place over Israel's objections, and the outcome caused the Bush administration, which had championed democracy in the Middle East, to lose its nerve. But during the relative quiet of the past six months, when Israel and Hamas observed a semi-truce, politics was beginning to work. Polls conducted by Palestinians showed that Hamas's support was falling in Gaza and the West Bank. Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian Authority president and Fatah leader, was beginning to talk about holding new elections for president and the legislature; he thought he could win both.

Egypt was working on brokering a deal between the two Palestinian parties. A split began to emerge in Hamas between leaders who wanted to make that deal and extend the peace with Israel, and Iranian-backed hard-liners who wanted to draw Israel into a fight. Israel probably could have ensured that the moderates won the argument by offering to lift its economic blockade of Gaza in exchange for a continued cease-fire. It then could have focused on negotiating a two-state settlement with Abbas and on improving life for Palestinians in the West Bank, while Hamas absorbed the blame for the unremediable misery of Gazans.

Instead, Israel took the Iranian bait and chose to fight."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 10:29 AM

You don't give a source for that interesting piece, bruce, but (thanks to Google's magic)I see it's from today's Washington Post. Hard Lesson for Israel

"Israel probably could have ensured that the moderates won the argument by offering to lift its economic blockade of Gaza in exchange for a continued cease-fire." It seems likely that there are people on both sides who would have seen that kind of deal as undesirable, and who would have been happy to do what they could to provoke the other side.

That would be consistent both with the Israeli raid into Gaza on 4th November that killed six Hamas people, and the subsequent escalation of rocket firing and formal announceent about the end of the ceasefire by Hamas.

And the coincidence of the impending new administration in Washington and the impending Israeli election would have offered a window of opportunity and a political motive for those arguing for an attack on Gaza at this time. (That date 4th November...)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 10:43 AM

All true, McGrath, but what Israeli politician could survive if they allowed the rocket attacks to continue? Israel tried for ( four?) days AFTER HAMAS had terminated the truce to get them to stop the attacks: THEN they attacked Gaza to reduce/prevent more rockets.

IMHO, it still is the choice of the hardline Hamas ( both by inciting the attacks with continued rocket fire and by hiding in the midst of civilians) to have Gazans killed in large numbers.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Lox
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 10:48 AM

BB

Israel broke the ceasefire on November the 4th.

Military targets? - I don't think so.

And before Israel broke the ceasefire, they had Gaza in a stranglehold, which according to todays BBC bulletins resulted in the deaths of around 200 palestinians who were denied access to hospital treatment when they were turned awat at checkpoints.


I really suggest people read this.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Lox
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 10:54 AM

The current Israeli administration is carrying out a policy so vile that only two responses could possibly be expected.


The first is sheer horror.

The other is blind denial.



They are both well evidenced above.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 11:01 AM

Israeli Airstrike on Gaza Threatens Truce With Hamas
Tuesday, November 04, 2008

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip — Israel launched an airstrike on Gaza early Wednesday after its troops clashed with Hamas militants who fired mortars into Israel, leaving six Palestinians dead. It was the first battle since a June truce mostly quieted violence in the volatile territory.

The Israeli army said the clashes erupted late Tuesday after its forces uncovered a tunnel in central Gaza that militants planned to use to abduct Israeli soldiers. It said a special army unit headed to the area to destroy the tunnel. One Palestinian was killed in fierce gunbattles that ensued.

Hamas then fired mortars across the Gaza border into southern Israel and Israel answered with the airstrike in the early hours of Wednesday, killing five suspected Palestinian militants, Israeli and Palestinian officials said. The army said the airstrike aimed at the mortar launchers and hit them.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 11:02 AM

Looking in from the outside there's a tendency to take decisions and events as read, as if they weren't the outcome if disagreements and horse-trading between people in the system with divergent agendae. Some trying to calm things down and avoid conflict, others seeing no alternative but to stoke things up.

"...what Israeli politician could survive if they allowed the rocket attacks to continue" - so, with an election looming, if you are one of those who want to force more reluctant colleagues to go ahead with an attack on Gaza before the new regime in Washingtin might complicate maters, you want to make sure those rockets are coming from your fellow hardliners on the other side.

Maybe I see these things more in terms of "what family could survive if a airstrike is carried out on the house they are sheltering in." But then my first memories are of the Blitz in London.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 11:05 AM

McGrath,

I think the Israeli Politicians were thinking "what family could survive if a rocket lands on the house they are sheltering in."

But again, to the point: Why is it that when Hamas shells Israelis civilians, there was not outrage or even comment, yet when Israel shells Hamas morters placed BY HAMAS amoung civilians there are cries of protest?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: heatherblether
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 11:19 AM

To Beardedbruce
GUERNICA
I have just read your comment about the mass bombing of Guernica in 1936.

I think you are wrong when you say it was not the first mass bombing.

The nazis bombed the civilian population of Guernica and some three thousands were killed.It was a war crime.It was shocking even by the barbaric standards of the time.

Picasso painted his masterpiece which now hangs in the UN building in New York and I saw on television some of the delegates hurrying past it without a glance just two days ago.

The point is that the Israeli bombing of Gaza IS comparable to Guernica.

The Israeli war leaders have gone all out to pulverise a city full of civilians and have used the full range of heavy bombs,tank shells,phospherous bombs, naval guns and missiles to terrorise and kill the residents of Gaza.The reports coming out of Gaza are horrific!

In doing so they have blown up schools and the refugees sheltering there,apartment blocks,houses universities and even hospitals.

As Gideon Levy has written today in Haaretz the Israeli newspaper those who support the invasion must also justify the slaughter.
And with several hundred children dead,pregant women blown up and thousands mutilated the war gang have much to explain.

Going back to Guernica when Colin Powell made an important war speech before the invasion of Iraq in 2003 he stood in front of Picasso's anti war masterpiece and it was only a hastily plain sheet covering the painting that prevented him from speaking in front of one of the great anti war symbols of our time.

What is happening in Gaza is a crime and those responsible must be held to account.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 11:28 AM

" think you are wrong when you say it was not the first mass bombing."


I did not say THAT- I said that Israel was NOT conducting a mass bombing of Gaza, regardless of what you say.

Think Dresden, Tokyo, etc. THOSE are mass bombings- 100,000's killed in ONE NIGHT. Gaza is a targeted, very selective bombing- In most cases the civilians killed are in the same location as valid military targets ( which are in violation of the Geneva Conventions by their locations: WHERE are the cries of outrage over THAT?). The number killed is proof to anyone with any military knowledge that the Israelis are NOT targetting civilians.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Confused
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 12:15 PM

I can't say that I've followed all this thread & I can only comment on what I've seen on the news etc., but while I understand that there have been lots of problems on both sides & lots of people think that Israel shouldn't exist for whatever reason, why is Israel being villified for trying to defend their own land? If I've read it right then it was people in Gaza who were sending rockets into Israel onto civilians first and broke the ceasfire, or am I wrong? When I've watched the news it appears to me that it's only certain targets that are being hit within Gaza, far from the wholesale destruction that some people on here are saying. Dreadful to slaughter innocent women & chidren I agree, and yes they should be given care etc. but if the people in Gaza are a fighting force why do they have to hide in people's homes, why not sort themselves out into a proper army & organise the defence of their territory? Surely if the other nations roundabout helped out then they could have a proper military force? After all if other countries like the US help Israel, then why don't countries who sympathise with the Gazans help to organise a proper military force?

The other things that I really don't understand is why are Israel allowed to get away with destroying things like fishing boats that people in Gaza own? Also is there no infrastructure of their own in Gaza? Do they need aid all the time or is it just during this crisis, because I seem to recall hearing a lot about aid for them before. Do they not have their own industries etc? Also why does the aid & medical help have to go through Israel. Isn't there a border with Egypt, or did I imagine that?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Guest Teribus
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 12:16 PM

"….the blanket bombing of so many innocent." – Barry Finn

Any idea of what "blanket bombing" is Barry? If so please provide details of any sortie flown by IDF pilots that would fit the description. After 14 days fighting in an area of high population density the toll on the civilian population stands at 0.04% of the population – Doesn't look like "blanket bombing" to me.

"The Israeli war leaders have gone all out to pulverise a city full of civilians and have used the full range of heavy bombs, tank shells, phospherous bombs, naval guns and missiles to terrorise and kill the residents of Gaza.The reports coming out of Gaza are horrific!" – Ifor

If what you state there were true, have you any idea of what that would actually look like ifor? Take a look at the town of Wesel after three days of what you describe -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wesel_1945.jpg

During World War II, Wesel became a target of the Allies particularly in its capacity as a strategic depot. On the 16, 17 and 19 February 1945, the town was attacked with impact and air-burst weapons and almost entirely destroyed.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 12:26 PM

Oh Bbruce, come on! "Selective bombings"?? Yes, selected schools, selected hospitals, selected apartment blocks. A bit like throwing a grenade into one CORNER (hence the 'selection') of a crowded room.

Civilians in the same location as valid military targets? Gaza is so tiny and cramped and overcrowded that I don't think Hamas (or any of the other militant organisations) have any choice but to operate alongside the civilian population.

And if that is a good criteria, not only are most of Israel's adult population also military or ex-military, they also live alongside numerous military bases all over Israel. That makes them legit targets also, right?

"Why is it that when Hamas shells Israelis civilians, there was not outrage or even comment, yet when Israel shells Hamas morters placed BY HAMAS amoung civilians there are cries of protest?"

Well, here's one - let it go on record that I protest the deaths caused by these rockets.

But there's also an issue of proportionality here. What if the boot was on the other foot and Palestinians were fiercely attacking Israel with helicopter gunships, bombs, tanks missiles etc., and causing thousands of civilian casualties, do you seriously think I'd be saying "oh well, they deserve it"? Do you seriously think I wouldn't be protesting against the barbaric killing of Israeli citizens?

The Palestinian rockets have murdered a handful of people - and once again, I abhor that. If one of them landed on my wife or family, I can't even begin to imagine how it would tear my life apart.
But is it justified to kill indiscriminately in response? Over the last few decades Israel has been teaching its neighbours how it expects to be treated in turn should things ever swing the other way.

But there's more to all this than just 'who started it' or numbers killed, or a war carried on by hardliners in each camp. There are root-cause issues of justice, national and social. There's the issue of illegal settlements (West Bank) and no right of return for palestinians who left or were expelled way back in the mists of time' (1940s) - or of Jews who were subjects of pogroms in the same area, for that matter - the blockade of Gaza making it, yes, into an open-air prison (i.e a place where you can't enter or leave at will, as we are all entitled to do in our own countries, issues of criminality aside), etc., etc., Unless these are tackled the bodies will continue to pile up.

It seems those taking the same line as the Israeli government and military believe that one dead Israeli is worth 100 dead palestinians, and that military force will solve all of these issues, not justice or fairness or dialogue. How much longer will these war-hawks be allowed to go on wrecking the world before people get sufficiently sick of them to do something about it?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: kendall
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 12:35 PM

Full scale bombing of civilians took place in Charleston harbor during our civil war. After the Union soldiers recaptured Fort Sumpter, General Gilmore got fed up with the rebel guns that were pounding Fort Sumpter, and he turned the big cannons of the fort on the city of Charleston. All it did was piss off the population and stiffen their resistance. That's what usually happens when one side or the other refuses to follow the rules of "Civilized" warfare.

When the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor, did we say. "Oh my, we are doomed"? or did we hit back with all we had?
When Germany bombed London, did the British knuckle under?

There are two course of action over there. 1. Negotiate. Stop the killing, and work out a deal that they can all live with.
Or, Israel can wipe out Hamas to the last man.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 01:30 PM

Hamas speaks for itself on this 2-minute video.

video clips of Hamas

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 01:30 PM

"Do you seriously think I wouldn't be protesting against the barbaric killing of Israeli citizens?"

From the past reaction here when Israeli citizens were killed, YES, I believe that you would not be protesting.

Care to show me an example from the past to the contrary?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 01:52 PM

Kendall,

see my post here of 09 Jan 09 - 07:41 AM

Look at the entire article- I would appreciate YOUR comments. Is it a fair evaluation? Should Israel trust the UN after the past efforts of that body?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 01:56 PM

Nickhere,

You state "But is it justified to kill indiscriminately in response? "

No, but I do NOT believe that the IDF is acting in that manner.



Do you believe it is wrong to target a civilian population?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 02:29 PM

Looking at past threads...


Darfur- Tribesmen killed by Arab Moslims.... no real protests

Israelis killed by Moslim terrorists........ no real comments

Palestinians killed by other Palestinians... no comments at all

Palestinians killed by Israelis............. Loud complaints, protests,and moral handwringing



NOW I understand. It is the fact that JEWS are being blamed that is important, not that innocents are being killed. Silly me.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: pdq
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 02:31 PM

"...is there no infrastructure of their own in Gaza? Do they need aid all the time or is it just during this crisis, because I seem to recall hearing a lot about aid for them before. Do they not have their own industries etc? Also why does the aid & medical help have to go through Israel. Isn't there a border with Egypt, or did I imagine that?"

Well, the goverment of Gaza is now Hamas and they want rockets, bombs and munitions more than they want food.

There is no way that a population of 1.5 million can feed itself in an area the size of Gaza. The problem is the farm land that once supported 200 thousand now sports housing for much of the 1.5 million Arabs who live there. In 1970 the birth rate in Gaza was 9 live births per adult female. Perhaps the highest in modern history. Even the worst case in recent years, Kenya, was 8 live births per female. Gazans have the philosophy of "conquest by numbers".

Yes, aid can come from Egypt as easily as it can come from Egypt, but the government does not want to deal with these militant ****urds anymore than the rest of of the civilized world does.

As far as jobs and industry, why work? They are told on a daily basis that the wealth of the Jew will be theirs when Israel is defeated. They also believe that oil revenue is the birth right of all Arabs, which they are. Yes, Gaza is 99.4% Arab. Plain old garden variety Arab.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 02:51 PM

""And all I have to do is read the pro-Palestinian, anti-Jewish press to get your opinion, obviously""

Bollocks!! Point to one post of mine stating that the palestinians are right in what they are doing.

You can't because I have repeatedly said they are not.

I have also said, and I repeat, NEITHER ARE THE ISRAELIS!!

Get this straight once and for all. Might does not make right. Never has, and never will.

As to your assertions that the IDF are putting their men at risk by trying to reduce civilian casualties, are we to assume that they advised 30 Hamas militants to shelter in a building, then shelled hem to pieces?

NO! They were civilians, many of them children.

This mayhem will never stop while Israel is encouraged by people who indulge them out of guilt feelings from having done NOTHING to stop the holocaust.

BOTH sides need to be slapped down, and made to behave.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 02:55 PM

DonT

If you make false claims about me, I am entitled to turn them back on you.

"As to your assertions that the IDF are putting their men at risk by trying to reduce civilian casualties, are we to assume that they advised 30 Hamas militants to shelter in a building, then shelled hem to pieces?" (Not militants in the report I read)

The troops that told them to get under cover in the building were infantry- 24 HOURS later the ARTILLARY hit that building. IDF is investigating ( as they should) but this is an example of WHY THE GENEVA CONVENTION states that military targets should not be placed in civilian areas. Another example of the fog of war- IF deliberate I have a lot more confidence that the IDF will punish those responsible than that ANY Hamas will be held to account for their war crimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 03:00 PM

" Don(Wyziwyg)T - PM
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 02:54 PM

...If I want to know what your opinion will be on any subject, all I have to do is look at the republican, gung ho, warmongering press outlets and there's your opinion, pre-digested."

So NO complaints, unless you think you are above the shit you dish out.


You remember- this from when you stated that Israel was only attacking much less than a square mile of Gaza (since the civilian casualties were too low to let you claim indescrimnate attacks, otherwise.)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 03:01 PM

Firing of inaccurate rockets is not a very efficient way of killing civilians. Delivering the explosives through suicide bombers, or for that matter IRA style non-suicide bombers, is a lot more efficient if that is the aim. So it seems unlikely that that is what Hamas has being doing.

And the IDF could very easily have killed far greater numbers if that was what they had been doing.

Throwing around those kind of accusations is just playing propaganda, and it provides an easy escape from the true horror of what has been and is going on. It's an accusations that doesn't have any impact.

What has been happening, on both sides, is that people are using such weapons as they have at their disposal as ways of conveying a political message to their opponents on the other side and of strengthening their position in relation to their opponents on their own side. And in this they have been coldbloodedly disreqarding the fact that their actions have caused, and are causing the deaths of innocent civilians on the other side.

The fact that there is such an enormous disparity between the death and suffering caused by the IDF actions and that caused by Hamas inevitably affects the way people respond. In one way this is wrong - there's a quote (from some great rabbi I think) about how killing one person is equivalent to killing a universe, and it's true.

But we do react to numbers - 9/11 affected us more than an assassination of a banker on a street somewhere would have. And the hecatomb in Gaza affects outsiders harder than the occasional Hamas rocket that actually killed someone rather than blowing a hole in a field. And I would seriously assert that for pretty well everyone, in this case it is not a matter of the religion or the nationality of the murdered innocents, but because of the scale of the killing. Not just in Gaza today, but over the years as well.

Incidently I'm not suggesting that the fact that the disparity between the numbers killed by the two sides should in itself be seen as indicating some kind of moral difference. If Hamas had the firepower and the delivery systems I am sure they would use this just as ruthlessly as the IDF - and if the IDF merely had the weapons of Hamas they would be using them in much the same way as Hamas has.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 03:53 PM

More or less my point McG.
Thank you.

Josef Stalin said "Kill one man, it's a tragedy. Kill a million, it's a statistic"

The killing needs to stop before one side achieves statistic status, because for me it's all a tragedy.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 06:28 PM

A piece in Haaretz this week about something Israelis and Palestinians have in common If you (or I) were Palestinian

This week I spoke with my students about the Gaza war, in the context of a class on national security. One student, who had expressed rather conservative, accepted opinions - that is opinions tending slightly to the right - succeeded in surprising me. Without any provocation on my part, he opened his heart and confessed: "If I were a young Palestinian," he said, "I'd fight the Jews fiercely, even by means of terror. Anyone who says anything different is telling you lies."

His remarks sounded familiar - I had already heard them before. Suddenly I remembered: About 10 years ago they were uttered by our defense minister, Ehud Barak. Haaretz journalist Gideon Levy had asked him then, as a candidate for prime minister, what he would do had he been born Palestinian and Barak replied frankly: "I would join a terror organization"...

The thing is - it's important that we should understand that though we can rightly repidiate terrorism as a tactic, but we should never assume that "terrorists" are that different from us, or that we have some moral superiority if we have never been in a situation where terrorism seems to make sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 07:35 PM

On the subject of human shields,

Israel has made much of Hamas' cowardice in allegedly using their children as shields.

I am not convinced of the substance of this allegation,

but if it is to be taken seriously then shouldn't at least hold fire with our scathing judgements until we have found a suitable explanation for these reports.

Israeli soldiers using Palestnians as human shields?????

During this conflict ...

and

back in July

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 07:54 PM

Terrorism is born out of a fatal & final desprate attempt at a release from an overwhelming oppression. Had slavery in the US had the means & technology to wage terror it would have done so with a vengence. There is always some truth at the birth of terrorism but from there it becomes a festering wound that sickens. If an oppressor wantst o truly eradicate terrorism it has to start with an examination of it's onw policy towards those seeking relief from them & the causes that the terrorists sprung from. As with the US we have still yet to ask ourselves why we are hated & subjected to terrorist attacks. Until we asked these questions & do something about answering those asnwers we will only continue to treat the symptoms of a disease instead to treating the causes that are making & turning us into such sick societies. How can anyone justify the actions of Israel or Hamas, we should be condeming both, both are killing the innocent. You cannot ask one to stop & not the other, both are to be condemed. But I don't believe that Israel or Hamas wants to stop both have their causes to champion & crusade & the innocent be damned. The only problem is, were I Israeli I would be ashamed to be called an Israeli, if I were Hamas I also be ashamed but I would not be ashamed to be called a Palestinian. How many of each are dying? I see very few Israeli dying, I see few Hamas dying too but I see very many Palestinians dying. That is what the US did to Iraq or tried to claim it did. We as a nation invaded a country using the excuse that we were trying to stop a group not a nation from attacking US, so we killed a nation in the process. Israel is killing a people to get to an origanisation.

Barry

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: kendall
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 08:35 PM

Ok folks, we have flogged this poor old horse near to death. It has all been said and no minds have been changed.
I think I'll just check out on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 10:27 PM

pdq: "In 1970 the birth rate in Gaza was 9 live births per adult female. Perhaps the highest in modern history. Even the worst case in recent years, Kenya, was 8 live births per female"

I think I know what you mean - i.e such a high birthrate might be seen as a bad thing to those with few resources to care for the born. But especially in recent years I have come to see the birth of any baby as a source of celebration and joy.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 11:42 PM

BBruce... I presume you looked over my threads in detail, as I haven't had time to. Not sure what qualifies as 'no real comments' to you, but I'm fairly sure that my protest about rockets / attacks on Israelis by Hamas (or whoever) above is not my first.

Since you don't live in my neck of the woods you wouldn't have seen me protesting about the Russian invasion of Georgia, as I didn't post any comments here about it (as far as I remember). But protest about it I most certainly did.

I found myself at odds with some of what you might call my 'long haired, muesli munching lefty friends' over that one. They generally seemed to have felt that Russia was defending breakaway regions from Georgian aggression. It was yet again one of those 'chicken and egg' things that infest our world, a Russian-doll of wars and historical aggression (no pun intended). Georgia, the big bully of Ossetia was being attacked by bigger bully Russia. Ossetia wanted to be part of Russia, but was part of Georgia. You could even argue it was Russia being spiteful towards the West for recognizing Kosovan independence in spite of Serbian displeasure. You could go on forever about who was right and wrong there, it was highly complex, sprang up out of nowhere and disappeared just as fast, leaving hundreds dead in its wake as these things do, before you'd even have a chance to get a handle on what it was all about.

But what I did feel was that yet again the human primate was resorting to violence to sort out its problems. So I protested, for whatever good it might do when people are determined to hurt each other.

You know, when I was a younger man, I often felt angry, ready to aggression - "kill em all! Nuke 'em!" It seemed the best way to deal with life's obstacles - from bad neighbours to truculent countries or people who didn't think the same as me. Thankfully I never killed or nuked anyone, and as I got older I began to question this worldview.

You may laugh at me for quoting this example but in such cases I often think of what Gandalf said to Merry when Merry drew his sword, ready to kill Gollum: "put your sword away, do not be so hasty to take life! Can you give it [life] as easily?" (Lord of the Rings)

There's also the example of the Aesop's fable where the wind failed by force to get the man to take off his coat, while the sun by shining warmly, did.

You have to ask yourself, what do you want? If you really want an end to this particular spot of violence in the Middle East, it will require looking outside the 'iron fist' worldview. Have Hamas and Islamic Jihad's rockets brought about a Palestinian homeland? Do you seriously believe Israeli missiles will make groups like Hamas disappear and everyone live happily together?

As I said before, there are root causes here - something has to be done about what Palestinians want in relation to a homeland. Now before you barge in and say 'but what about...?' let's remember Israelis now HAVE a homeland. I believe if you look into it carefully you'll find Hamas have moderated their position somewhat from their original 'charter' and have accepted this fact.

The two main problems are that Israel has tried to expand that homeland well beyond what was originally envisaged and to that end have taken over territories such as the West Bank which they are now settling with their own citizens regardless of the people who live there already; as part of this strategy they have strangled the economic and social life of both Gaza and the Palestinian West Bank.

Once again, before you say "but Israel was entitled to defend itself against aggression etc., and its exapnsion is part of that"

Yes, of course, it was - and is - entitled to defend itself against aggression, but that does not permit it to expand the original territory allocated either. It can defend itself effectively, crossing its borders to do so if attacked along those borders, then withdraw to within its borders. Curently it's sprawled well past the original Homeland allocated. It has to be said this seems quite intentional.

And before you say "but that's why Israeli army is in the West bank, to defend Israel from suicide bombers etc." let me state the obvious: If you want to protect your citizens from suicide bombers, you do not send them out to settle among their would-be assassins, and secondly, the occupation of the West Bank is the cause of the attacks, not the consequence.

Anyway, in short, you can't have your cake and eat it; Israel cannot occupy the lands and destroy the livelihoods of its neighbours and expect to live in peace with them at the same time. If these issues are dealt with, terrorist organisations among palestinians will dry up first to a trickle and then to nothing. Yes, there will always be a few individuals on either side who might actually go as far as carrying a life-long hatred of their neighbours. Humans are not always rational, and sadly both sides have reasons to harbour grudges. How will that be achieved? A two-state solution? A single state where (Muslim?) Palestinian arabs live as equals with Israeli (Jewish?) brethern? I don't know, and it doesn't matter as long as it works. But the sum of violence WILL decrease dramatically.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Jan 09 - 04:12 AM

"Firing of inaccurate rockets is not a very efficient way of killing civilians. Delivering the explosives through suicide bombers, or for that matter IRA style non-suicide bombers, is a lot more efficient if that is the aim. So it seems unlikely that that is what Hamas has being doing." - MGOH

Em Kevin, the Israeli's stopped Hamas and other Islamist/Palestinian Terrorist organisations from carrying out suicide bombings, car bombings and sniper attacks by building a wall and closing/closely controlling crossing points. Hamas and other groups operating without restriction within Gaza then started indiscriminately firing rockets, both home-made (Kassam's), or as supplied by Iran (Grad's), into Israel. Those rockets are deliberately directed at centres of civilian inhabitation and the intention is to kill Israeli citizens, whether they be Jew, Christian or Muslim. The fact that they, Hamas et al, haven't been outstandingly successful is not from the want of trying. Numbers of casualties in those areas have been slight because the Israeli citizens in the areas affected are blessed with the presence of responsible government and have been provided with an efficient warning system to alert the population at large and suitable shelters that are easy to access and numerous. While Israel does its best to keep civilians out of harms way, Hamas as the governing body in Gaza does exactly the opposite.

1. Officially recognise Israel's right to exist and live in peace with its neighbours.

2. Officially recognise the right to life of Israeli citizens free from attack or threat of attack.

3. Halt the launching of attacks upon Israel and its citizens

Do that and you have peace tomorrow. After 60 years it's high time somebody tried it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Jan 09 - 07:46 PM

"you'll find Hamas have moderated their position somewhat from their original 'charter' and have accepted this fact."


I have not found this to be so. i refer to the Hamas Charter, and nothing said by HAMAS has ever repudiated it. FATAH has changed it's view: Note there is no attack on or from the West Bank, under PLO control.

As for the territory, it all depends on what year you want to define borders: If you say pre-1967 war, I will ask both Why not give Israel the results of the war, and Why not use the 1923 borders that were determined when the Arab Moslim Homeland of Trandsjordan was formed. All the other nations in the region were defined then: Why should Israel be any different?

I have NO desire to kill anyone- but I have little sympathy for those who try to kill civilians deliberately, and then complain when their effort to hide their attacks behind their own civilian population does not give them the freedom to kill that they desire.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 11 Jan 09 - 08:32 PM

You may not have any disire to kill anyone BB 40% of those being killed right no are Palestinian woman & children, 70 killed & over 200 wounded over this past weekend & no Israeli's???????

Somethings wrong with these totals, a bit one sided.

It's no wonder that Jews throughout Europe are now feeling the weight of Israel's onslaught against those in the Gaza.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Jan 09 - 08:55 PM

McGrath wrote:
Incidently I'm not suggesting that the fact that the disparity between the numbers killed by the two sides should in itself be seen as indicating some kind of moral difference. If Hamas had the firepower and the delivery systems I am sure they would use this just as ruthlessly as the IDF - and if the IDF merely had the weapons of Hamas they would be using them in much the same way as Hamas has.

I think the evidence is against this. Israel already had the increased firepower and was not shelling, bombing, or targetting Palestinian civilians until goaded by unceasing attacks under the aegis of Hamas with their weapons, primitive or supplied by others, on Israeli civilians.

The Palestinians are being used as a cultural 'bullyboy'. The bully goes into a bar with a much smaller buddy who provokes a fight with the victim. Bully moves in, polishes off the target. The Palestinians are heartbreakingly miserable, but they are kept that way for a larger purpose by Fatah, Hamas, and the other Arab countries.

If the Israelis were like Hamas, there would be no Palestinians. End of story.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 11 Jan 09 - 08:55 PM

Israel's campain to wage war against the citizens of Palestine in order to have Hamas overthrown from within is not working, it is nothing more than terrorism itself & is now backfiring with Jews throughout Europe being threatened. Tit for tat is what someone said above. This will go on until the innocent civilians in both states force their own governments to stop devouring their own children. There are no excuses & since Israel holds the most power, is the most aggresive. hold the finiancial cards as well as most of the other cards of influence they should be the ones to bare the burden & make a peace offering accecptable, no matter what it takes. That's right, No Matter What It Takes. It (the ball) is & was always in their court even during the 67' Take!
As far as I'm concerned if they don't make the move they need to take now they (Israel) will now & forever have it's place in history as uqual & as oppsite as it holds a place in history prior to the ending of WWII.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Jan 09 - 09:30 PM

Every now & then, a cartoonist hits it right on the head

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Jan 09 - 09:34 PM

Barry:
What it takes according to Hamas is for Israel to cease to exist.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 11 Jan 09 - 11:13 PM

What it takes is some outside power (would that it were the UN)to force both sides to behave.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 11 Jan 09 - 11:40 PM

Ya Robo, what it'll take is for the heavens to fall,,, on the heads of both.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 11 Jan 09 - 11:54 PM

Both sides will cut there noses off to spite their faces, then the world can look & laugh at how ugly both are. You may disagree & stand for one side or the other & make excuses for both till the cows come home but if the outside world does not demand an end neither deserves to exist. Let them all become citizens of a better place. A call for the dismantling & changing of both regimes might be in line at this point. They both ahd a way out & neither wants to live, so let them die. The mid East is better for being rid of them both.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: DougR
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 12:25 AM

It seems to me that one of the major sins of Israels is not enough people died from the thousands of rockets Hamas has lobbed into it. If a like number of Israelis died from rockets, compared to those Palestinians who have died from the current conflict, would those who blame Israel for the invasion still be as condemning?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: robomatic
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 01:16 AM

Sorry, Barry, I can't develop a "kill 'em all and let God sort it out" attitude when I know that one is a democratic multi-ethnic society with freedom of speech and religion, and the other a dictatorial terrorist regime which rules by terror inside and out.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 01:50 AM

Hamas – The Elected "Government" of Gaza

Hamas deploys suicide attackers including women and children, and rigs up schools and houses with booby-trap explosives. Its leaders knew as a matter of certainty this would lead to civilian casualties if there was a ground battle. Virtually every aspect of its operations is illegal under international humanitarian law – Yet the accusation of 'war crimes' in charged and highly emotive language is reserved solely for condemnation of Israeli actions.

If the IDF had no regard for civilian lives it would never have leafleted and telephoned residents in Gaza, warning them when it was about to attack their area: after all, that also gives Hamas notice – hardly the act of an army devoted to military victory at all costs. Similarly, the IDF's unilateral commitment to a daily three-hour ceasefire to permit the evacuation (to Israel) of casualties, and for the passage of "humanitarian aid", also allows Hamas time to regroup and redeploy for future attacks.

Of course, none of these arguments can penetrate the brains of the superannuated Stalinists, vicarious jihadists and attention-seeking actors and pop stars who think it's cool to go on marches chanting, "We are all Hamas now". Even if these luvvies might not be aware that on Christmas Eve Hamas legalised crucifixion as a punishment for those who "weaken the spirit of the people", and have been shooting such political enemies in the head when they find them in hospitals conveniently injured by Israeli bombing raids, they still deserve to be dismissed as useful idiots for Hamas, who although elected to govern and look to the interests of the population of Gaza as a whole, have shown no interest in fulfilling either function.

Of course should there ever be future elections in Gaza, the world press will clamour to cover exactly how Hamas apply their new punishment for those found weakening the spirit of "the people" and on whom they exercise this punishment. Perhaps all those superannuated Stalinists, vicarious jihadists and attention-seeking actors and pop stars, who are "all Hamas now" will pop out to Gaza to lend a hand?

Many years ago now Israel swapped land for peace with Egypt and with Jordan. Both those countries in return recognised Israel's right to exist and the agreements have held. Hamas, Fatah and the PLO have broken, or voluntarily ended, cease-fire after cease-fire. As pointed out there have been no attacks from or on the West Bank, where Fatah and the PA are slowly coming to the conclusion that there is nothing to be gained in attacking Israel. Hamas must renounce the sections of its charter that call for the destruction of Israel and death to the Jews, because until that is done there is no basis for negotiation - Both sides are on record, Israel wants peace, Hamas just wants a "cease-fire", or a truce - until they are ready for the next time - That approach serves nobody, least of all the "Palestinian" people, high time they themselves realised that.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 03:23 AM

Hamas, Hezbollah and Al-Qaeda: 21st Century Nazis
Hamas, Hezbollah and Al-Qaeda are not political extensions of an ethno ideology contextualized within the framework of a religious narrative. These groups represent nothing more and nothing less than an unbridled commitment to murder, destruction and terrorism. Accordingly, the prophets and ministers of this hybrid religious/political cult preach from the canon of fear and chaos, vociferously advocating the message of religious totalitarianism. This belief system adheres to a strategic plan addressing four specific tactics:

1.        The Destruction of Israel
2.        The Death and destruction of all non believers including Christians, Jews, Hindus and all others
3.        The exploitation of women and children as tools of terror, from human shields to suicide bombers.
4.        The manipulation of media in order to justify and brand behavior, victimization.

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/samuel_rodriguez/2009/01/hamas_hezbollah_and_al_qaeda_2.html

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 04:00 AM

Hamas Charter:

Article Thirteen:
Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine is abuse directed against part of religion. Nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its religion. Its members have been fed on that. For the sake of hoisting the banner of Allah over their homeland they fight. "Allah will be prominent, but most people do not know."

Now and then the call goes out for the convening of an international conference to look for ways of solving the (Palestinian) question. Some accept, others reject the idea, for this or other reason, with one stipulation or more for consent to convening the conference and participating in it. Knowing the parties constituting the conference, their past and present attitudes towards Moslem problems, the Islamic Resistance Movement does not consider these conferences capable of realising the demands, restoring the rights or doing justice to the oppressed. These conferences are only ways of setting the infidels in the land of the Moslems as arbitraters. When did the infidels do justice to the believers?

"But the Jews will not be pleased with thee, neither the Christians, until thou follow their religion; say, The direction of Allah is the true direction. And verily if thou follow their desires, after the knowledge which hath been given thee, thou shalt find no patron or protector against Allah." (The Cow - verse 120).

There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with. As in said in the honourable Hadith:

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 01:26 PM

How come all you guys come out from under your stones at the same time?
Is aggression the best means of defence?
Don't you watch your TV?.....Children burned by white phos! who but terrorists would use such a weapon?
Hundreds of civilians slaughtered, so that Israel can continue to expand.

When the Russians invaded Georgia you all screamed blue murder!! Before you even knew the truth....that the Georgians had attacked and slaughtered hundreds of Ossetians.

You are nothing but a shower of hypocrits...worse than hypocrits, who can support the wholesale murder of women and children.

The Israelis have no scruples, despite the holocaust, or maybe because of it, the lives of the Palestinians mean nothing to them.

The whole world should feel sahame at what is happening in Gaza...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: bobad
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 01:36 PM

"who but terrorists would use such a weapon?"

International law permits the use of white phopshorus as an "obscurant" to cover troop movements and prevent enemies from using certain guided weapons, but its use is controversial as it can injure people through painful chemical burns.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 01:37 PM

That cartoon is just excellent, Bill!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 02:08 PM

Fatuous as usual, Douggie. Nice job.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 02:10 PM

" ...and then complain when their effort to hide their attacks behind their own civilian population... "

Didn't you read the links on this post?

"From: GUEST,lox
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 07:35 PM"

In which the BBC reported Israeli troops hiding behind palestinian civilians both in the current conflit and back in july.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 02:50 PM

BBruce - I don't think you can really say the PA is in charge of the West Bank in any meaningful sense. The Israeli army and Israeli colonists are the ones mainly in charge of what goes on in the West Bank, and the PA is allowed to get on with the job of pretending to be a country as long as it doesn't get in the way of anything the former two decide. The PA have probably realised that nothing is to be gained from attacking Israel, correct. But all this proves is 'might is right' and does not make the colonization of the West Bank moral or correct.

Not so long ago Hamas was trying to form part of a delegation with Fatah to negotiate a peace with Israel, including the point repeatedly mentioned, Israel's being there. By trying to involve themselves in this delegation Hamas were de facto saying they accepted the reality of the situation, whether they liked it or not ebing another matter. Israel rejected any delegation containing Hamas ensuring both sides returned to what they know best.

But in that instance it was Israel that slapped away the hand of peace (or non-war, at any rate, if peace is too strong a word).

It wouldn't really make a difference though if Hamas changed its charter, There are enough disaffected individuals out there for new organisations to spring up as old ones are deemed to have 'gone soft' (Palestinian politicians suffer from the same problems as Israeli ones, reference to further back this thread) and thus to ensure Israeli hardliners always had an excuse to bombard civilian and militant alike and make things so unpleasant that eventually people will take the advice on the leaflets dropped ("Flee! Flee for your lives!") and leave, leaving the area open to annexation again. As long as there's ONE palestinian throwing as much as a hand grenade across the border, the military guys will have all the excuse they need.

The cycle of violence will breed more violence, ensuring no end to the bloodshed. Israel built up radical Isalmist organistaions when they were useful in bringing down the PLO. Then in turn Fatah was used to undermine Hamas, and if Hamas were to change tack they'd be used in the same way. It's divide and conquer, and we've had enough experience of it here to know it when we see it.

Sort out the root issues and most of the problems will cease. 1967 Borders? 1923 borders? What about 1948 borders, even?

Israel could go back inside the Green Line, evacuate its colonies on the West Bank (they could leave the houses intact and good condition as a goodwill gesture to the Palestinians on whose land they're built).

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 03:41 PM

Israel appears also to be testing new weapons (DIME weapons). I don't know if it's true or not, thankfully not being there to find out, but here's a TV report with more details -

Israel tests new weapons

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,guest ifor
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 03:56 PM

Date: 12 Jan 09 - 02:10 AM

I think Robomatic is quite right to describe Israel as a "dictatorial terrorist regime which rules by terror inside and out".

It has been slaughtering Palestinian civilians for decades at countless half forgotten massacre sites from Deir Yassin to Qana ,from the Beirut refugee camps to Gaza.

In addition it has stolen Palestinian land,grubbed up Palestinian orchard groves and olive trees and corralled Palestinians into ever tighter parcels of land on the West Bank.

It has destroyed mosques and universities and imprisoned ,often without trial, large numbers of Palestinan men women and children.

The Israeli state has demolished tens of thousands of Palestinian houses with armoured bulldozers sometimes with the occupants either still inside or scrabbling to get out with their possessions. The Israeli military have gone on a ghastly,horrific killing spree in Gaza but for years they have been killing Palestinian with those rubber coated bullets.They have used assassination squads to shoot down "militants" and guided missiles to kill their enemies and a few other civilians at the same time.

Israel is a state that is illegally occupying land that is has no legal right to.It has settled on that land...the West Bank...armed paramilitary thugs and their families who were often born outside Israel.These armed thugs have terrorised and humiliated and attacked the Palestinians they live among with impunity.

Palestinians are kept waiting at checkpoints for considerable amounts of time..often hours .Sometimes they have no freedom of movement at all.Palestinian mothers to be have died at checkpoints waiting for medical treatment and scores of Palestinian patients were not allowed to leave Gaza even before the current slaughter .They died for want of an Israeli exit permit.

Israel is a terrorist state ,founded on the theft of an entire land from its Palestinian inhabitants.

Of course those Palestinians who fled to places like Gaza to escape the Israeli military have no right of return to their homeland under any proposal offered by Israel.

The Israeli military is slaughtering away right now but Gaza is a city of about a million and a half people.It has flattened great chunks of the city with its huge bombs and used white phospherous shells against the civilian population .There are reports emerging that the USA is chartering a vessel to move extra ammo and bombs from depots in Greece to Israel.How considerate of Washington!

But what happens when the Israelis get exhausted by the killing ,when those young men are tired of wading through the bood of babies and teenagers??

Gaza will still be there unless the Israelis plan to kill them all .And what sort of rights do the Israeli envisage Palestinians will have in the occupied territories,Jerusalem,the West Bank and Gaza? I think it will as Robomatic says more "terror inside and out". ifor

---

Someone wrote today that this is probably the only war in history where one side consists of mainly unarmed civilians who are penned in quite a small area and who are not allowed out beyond the guarded perimeter. They are told to flee by leaflets dropping from the air but there is nowhere to escape to.

Every day in this war they are being pounded by high explosives from land,sea and air. Chemical warfare is being waged via white phospherous shells fired by the Israeli military. Much of the equipment it uses is supplied either directly by the USA or under licence in Israel.Bush is an accomplice to war crimes.

The hospitals which are coping with some 4000 casualties suffering horrific injuries including limb amputations are totally overloaded.4000 casualties in such a short period of time would test the most sophisticated of hospital systems but Gaza has been starved of basic equipment ,finance and support services for years under the Israeli blockade.

Hundreds of the dead are children. Many of these children are babies and infants.

Whole family groups have be exterminated by young Israeli pilots , artillerymen and tank crews firing into one of the most densely packed cities in the world.

Gaza is a city built by refugees from other,earlier land grabs and massacres.

I don't think it is going to work out as planned by the Israelis. They can pulverise the city [they have done it before in Beirut several times : 1982 and 2006 springs to mind], they can slaughter civilians in large numbers [ Sabra and Shatilla ] but Israel is finding it harder and harder to win any war. Israel may well find itself having to control the ruins of Gaza with its million plus population seething with hatred and anger at what has been done to them. And sooner or later it will have to get out just as it had to run from Lebanese soil.

I want to know from the Zionists what rights do Palestinians have under the Israeli jackboot? Apart from the right to be blown up or starved or imprisoned without trial?? They are not going away.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 03:58 PM

Israel also requested from the US more "Bunker Buster" bombs, they were denied, thank Christ (bad pun). But isn't the havoc that they're raining down on the Palestinian people more than enough already, why would they see the need to rain more hell on a civilian population unless it's terror that they want to shower on people. Israel will never find the rest it seeks unless it's "Rest In Peace".


Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,guest Hugo
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 04:15 PM

"Haaretz the Israeli newspaper " reported today that a young Israeli reservist refused to cross into Gaza with his unit because of the killing of Palestinian civilians.
He has been sentenced to 14 days imprisonment.
Honour to his name!
Hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: DougR
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 04:16 PM

greg f: "Fatuous?" Me? Sticks and stones ...etc. etc.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 04:30 PM

Jan 12, 2009 0:35 | Updated Jan 12, 2009 12:40
Iran warns Hamas not to accept truce
By KHALED ABU TOAMEH

Iran is exerting heavy pressure on Hamas not to accept the Egyptian proposal for a cease-fire with Israel, an Egyptian government official said on Sunday.

The official told The Jerusalem Post by phone that two senior Iranian officials who visited Damascus recently warned Hamas leaders against accepting the proposal.

His remarks came as Hamas representatives met in Cairo with Egyptian Intelligence Chief Gen. Omar Suleiman and his aides to discuss ways of ending the fighting in the Gaza Strip.

The Hamas representatives reiterated their opposition to a cease-fire that did not include the reopening of all the border crossings into the Gaza Strip, Hamas spokesmen said on Sunday.

RELATED
Egypt sees progress in ceasefire talks with Hamas
The spokesmen said Hamas voiced its strong opposition to the idea of deploying an international force inside the Gaza Strip.

The Egyptian official said that the two Iranian emissaries, Ali Larijani, Speaker of the Iranian Parliament, and Said Jalili of the Iranian Intelligence Service, met in the Syrian capital with Hamas leader Khaled Mashaal and Islamic Jihad Secretary-General Ramadan Shallah.


"As soon as the Iranians heard about the Egyptian cease-fire initiative, they dispatched the two officials to Damascus on an urgent mission to warn the Palestinians against accepting it," the Egyptian government official told the Post.

"The Iranians threatened to stop weapons supplies and funding to the Palestinian factions if they agreed to a cease-fire with Israel. The Iranians want to fight Israel and the US indirectly. They are doing this through Hamas in Palestine and Hizbullah in Lebanon".

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 04:32 PM

Jan 12, 2009 12:20 | Updated Jan 12, 2009 21:44
Dichter: Hamas salaries paid at Shifa Hospital
By AMIR MIZROCH

Hamas uses Gaza's Shifa Hospital as a meeting place and even distributed salaries to their operatives there over the weekend, Public Security Minister and former Shin Bet (Israel Security Agency) head Avi Dichter said Monday morning.

Speaking on Army Radio, Dichter said, "On Saturday, January 10, which is the day salaries are distributed in Gaza, several Hamas commanders who cannot come out of their hiding places were given their salaries at their hiding places.

"But those commanders who can move around Gaza made their way to Shifa Hospital to receive their salaries."

Regarding Israeli intelligence reports that Hamas's leadership had taken refuge in the hospital, Dichter said, "Shifa Hospital has long ago ceased to be just a hospital, just as the UNRWA humanitarian and health services in Gaza long ago ceased to be just humanitarian services providing food and medical services."

"UN schools in Gaza long ago stopped being just schools," he added. "All these services and places are refuges for Hamas terrorists and commanders."

Asked why Israel was not acting against Shifa Hospital, Dichter answered that an attack on a hospital could not be carried out "for obvious reasons."

Prevention and treatment? Shin Bet head Yuval Diskin says some of the doctors in Gaza's hospitals could actually could be Hamas men in disguise.

"Shifa is in the middle of a very crowded area in Gaza, and you would have to get through half a million Gazans to get to the hospital and arrest Hamas people there. So that's not doable," he said.

Dichter pointed out that it was common knowledge in Gaza that Hamas held meetings in the hospital.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 04:35 PM

"Karam Jaber, editor of the semi-official Egyptian weekly Roz Al-Youssef magazine, said that Hamas was caught between the Syrian anvil and the Iranian hammer. The Iranians, he said, prevented Hamas from negotiating a cease-fire with Israel, while the Syrians were blackmailing and intimidating the Hamas leaders in Damascus.

"History won't forget to mention that Hamas had inflicted death and destruction on the Palestinians," he said. "We hope that Hamas has learned the lesson and realizes that it has been fighting a war on behalf of others. We hope the Hamas leaders will realize that they are fighting a destructive war on behalf of the Iranians and Syrians".

Egyptian political analyst Magdi Khalil said he shared the view of the Palestinian Authority and Egypt that Hamas was responsible for the war in the Gaza Strip. "Ever since Hamas seized control over the Gaza Strip in 2007, they turned the area into hell," he said. "They imposed restrictions on the people there and even prevented them from performing the pilgrimage to Mecca".

The analyst said that the head of the Egyptian General Intelligence Service was right when he recently described Hamas as a group of gangsters. "Hamas and its masters in Damascus and Teheran want to spread chaos in Egypt," he said. "They want to solve the problem of the Gaza Strip by handing the area over to Egypt. They want to create a homeland for the Palestinians in Sinai".

He said that Hamas was not only jeopardizing Egypt's national security, but had also destroyed the Palestinians' dream of statehood. "By endorsing the Iranian agenda, Hamas has brought the Iranians to Egypt's eastern border," he said. "Hamas has also copied Hizbullah's policy of entering into pointless adventures". "

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 04:58 PM

A good principle is not to give any credence to anything that any political spokesperson or official says. On either side.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,guest ifor
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 05:53 PM

Haaretz, the Israeli newspaper,reported today that a young army reservist has been sentenced to 14 days imprisonment after refusing to cross the border into Gaza with his unit.
He refused because of the large number of civilian casualties being inflicted by the Israeli military.
Honour to him
Ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 05:59 PM

Honour indeed.

True heroism.

Thanks ifor


In all this talk of what constitutes courage, you have found a true example.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 06:05 PM

Another thing that disturbs me about this conflict is the clinical way that death is delivered by the Israelis.
By clinical, I don't mean precise, the numbers dead children attest to that!
Clinical in the sense that death is quite meaningless to those who deliver it......a detached operation, lacking the sight and smell of burning hair, flesh and blood.
The people who operate the Predator drones might just as well be at work in a bank or supermarket, they just press the button and a half dozen people just disappear!
Maybe they have a cup of coffee in their hands or have a quick browse through the morning paper between shots.
I watch a video to day, taken in Gaza, of the clinical extermination of several cars and their occupants by predator drone.

Who do these fucking people think they are? How do they know for sure who is in the car?....and do they care?

These people are systematically murdering an elected govt...and with them, hundreds of the Gaza electorate, not including the hundreds too young to vote and many too young to walk!!

I suppose most of you will have seen the film "Saving Pt Ryan"

To me the scene which filled me with most horror was not the blood on the beaches, but the knife fight between the German and the American soldier in the burned out house. As the German began to prevail and the knife entered the Americans stomach....ever so slowly.....The German spoke softly to his adversary to calm him as the knife slid slowly towards his heart....this was realism in cinema, and the viewer of the scene was aware that no matter who had come out alive they would never be the same person again,

Death in war, if we are mad enough to wage war, should have that effect, a shattering numbing experience that will never leave the minds of any who have participated in it.....not a clinical video game, the murderous results of which can be viewed over coffee.

We see the burning and broken children, but the other senses are not involved....there should be a sense of hearing ....for the childish screams. A sense of smell for the roasted flesh...and above all else, a sense of shame, that we are too cowardly or apathetic to demand from our governments an end to this massacre.....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: pdq
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 06:18 PM

"The Iranians, he said, prevented Hamas from negotiating a cease-fire with Israel, while the Syrians were blackmailing and intimidating the Hamas leaders in Damascus."

"We hope the Hamas leaders will realize that they are fighting a destructive war on behalf of the Iranians and Syrians."

Yes, the Arabs of Gaza are acting as agents of Iran and Syria.

Those two countries will "fight to the very last man" as long as that man is not one of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 06:29 PM

What does it fucking matter!!
The Americans did the same to the South Vietnamese
All that matters is that the big world powers get together and fix this....and it can only be fixed if America wants it fixed.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: pdq
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 06:47 PM

"...big world powers get together and fix this..."

Just how can the US governnment or the Russian government, or any other superpower stop a few dozen fanatics from launching 10 or 12 missiles per day into Israel. Answer: they can't.

Either the Arabs of Gaza have to do it themselves or the instigators in Iran and Syrian must want it to stop,

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 06:49 PM

Ya' know, Ake, if you asked me a month ago if I thought that Israel had a "right to exist" I'd have said, "Sure"...

With every passing day I am less and less "sure" that Israel has a right to exist...

I mean, the Bush adminstartion's own refusal to give Israel more bunker buster bombs, which BTW I believe are nuclear, really turned my thinking...

Israel has become that neigbor who moves into a new neighborhood and goes out of its way to piss everyone off...

Sorry, but I no longer believe that this Israel has earned the right to exist...

I am terribly sorry to my many Jewish friends but this is where I find myself...

And its a sad place to be... Very sad...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 08:15 PM

"Right to the exist" has a special meaning in this context. It means a right to ensure that a particular country will always be controlled by a particular religious/ethnic community.

Now where else has an analogous "right to exist" been asserted as overriding the rights of other people belonging to a country or state?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 08:23 PM

Yes Bobert I fully agree with what you have written, when read in conjuntion with McGrath's post.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 09:27 PM

"Israel Moves in."

          I thought they were talking about the US Senate!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 09:45 PM

LOL.....:0)...Goodnight Rig.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,guest ifor
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 11:50 PM

Two Israeli arab political parties have been banned from next month's election because they are opposed to the attack on Gaza.

Israeli arabs [actually they are Palestinian by another name ] comprise some 20 % of the population of Israel and are widely regarded as second class citizens.

Their already difficult place in the theocratic state odf Israel is going to become ever more precarious as the right wing parties become more reactionary in the coming months and years.

The claim that Israel is somehow a functioning democracy looks a little hollow in the light of the banning and in the way this substantial and growing arab israeli population is treated by its political masters.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,guest ifor
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 12:13 AM

How appropriate that culture in Israel is being flattened at the same time as apartment blocks in Gaza are being pulverised.

The news has emerged that the America-Israel Foundation which supports Culture and the Arts in Israel is about to go out of business as a result of the 50 billion dollar Bernard Madoff financial scandal which has been unfolding in New York during the past month.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: DougR
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 12:22 AM

Bobert: If memory serves, Israel was awarded the right to exist by that vaunted institution so many of you look to to solve the world's problems, ...the UN in about 1947 or 48. Some in the Muslim community did not then, and never will accept the UN's declaration. The fact that some of you side with Hamas, IMO, is shameful.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 07:17 AM

"Sorry, but I no longer believe that this Israel has earned the right to exist..."

With all your DOCUMENTED false claims, Have YOU earned the right to exist???

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 07:35 AM

Actually, DougR, Israel as a concept was determined to exist as part of the treaties that ended of WW I- You know, the same treaties that gave Turkey, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Jordan ( as the Palsetinian Arab Homeland) and other nations the "right" to exist.

So, if Bobert questions the right of Israel, he is saying that the entire region is now up for grabs.

If he is just saying that Israel's actions have forfeited it's right to exist, then perhaps he should look at the actions of others in that region, from 1948 to present, and tell us who he would allow the right of existance to? Specific countries, now...

Hell, Lets look at the entire world- Who would have the right to exist by Bobert's standards?



Maybe Iceland.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 07:38 AM

If the UN declared that all right handed people would be left handed would that make it so, Dougie??? I mean, lets get real here...

Yes, I fully understand how Israel was created and can honestly say that until just recently nave always supported it's right to exist...

Does this mean I support Hamas??? No, it doesn't... It means that ***this*** Israel has lost my support and I don't see how ***this*** Israel can co-"exist" with it's neighbors... Even if Israel kills every last Hamas if ***this*** Israel continues it's policies toward Palestians another Hamas will grow in it's place...

But beyond this, I also fault the Bush administrations blanket support of thses anti-human policies... You just can't starve or bully yer neighbors and expect them to like you...

Israel needs to rethink it's positions... If not, then the folks there would be better served living somewhere else where they could get along with their neighbors... I'm sure that we here in the US would welcome a good portion of Israel's population and I'm sure that Europe would as well...

Bizarre??? Well, yeah... But no less bizarre than what we are witnessing and the sad part about it is that Israel's actions will not make it safer, but less safe...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 07:41 AM

Jan 12, 2009 8:47 | Updated Jan 12, 2009 21:41
Hamas raids aid trucks, sells supplies
By YAAKOV KATZ AND JPOST.COM STAFF

Hamas on Monday raided some 100 aid trucks that Israel had allowed into Gaza, stole their contents and sold them to the highest bidders.

Slideshow: Gaza op, Day 17 The IDF said that since terminal activity is coordinated with UNRWA and the Red Cross, Israel could do nothing to prevent such raids, Israel Radio reported.

Between 10 a.m. to 1 p.m., the army had ceased all military activity in Gaza and once again established a "humanitarian corridor" to help facilitate the transfer of the supplies.

The Kerem Shalom and Karni crossings had been opened to allow in the aid trucks.

Security officials at Kerem Shalom thwarted an attempt to smuggle electrical goods, disguised as humanitarian supplies, into Gaza. The electrical goods included computers, infra-red cameras, ovens, microwaves and other electronic equipment.

Defense Minister Ehud Barak has forbidden the entry of electronics to Gaza since the goods do not fall under the category of humanitarian aid. Some electronic equipment has been let in as per an official Palestinian request, such as equipment used to repair the damaged electrical grid in Gaza.

Meanwhile, Israel is considering establishing a field hospital in the Gaza Strip to treat Palestinian civilians wounded in fighting between the IDF and Hamas.

The plan would be to establish the field hospital outside the Gaza Strip, but the IDF is also considering the possibility of erecting the hospital inside the Palestinian territory so it will be more accessible to the Palestinian population. It would be run by the IDF Medical Corps.

Also Monday, in an effort to promote Israeli humanitarian efforts in the Gaza Strip, the Defense Ministry launched a new Web site that provides a live video feed of the Kerem Shalom cargo crossing, through which international organizations have been transferring basic foods and medical supplies to Gaza.

The footage can be viewed at: http://www.mod.gov.il/pages/general/Maavar-Kerem-Shalom.asp. Since the beginning of Operation Cast Lead, the IDF has facilitated the transfer of close to 900 trucks into the Gaza Strip with over 20,000 tons of basic foods and medical supplies.

According to an army estimate on Monday, slightly over 900 Palestinians have been killed since Operation Cast Lead began in December 2008. Based on intelligence and information obtained by the Gaza Coordination and Liaison Administration, the IDF has determined that at least 400 of those killed are known Hamas operatives. The IDF further believes that among the remaining 500, a significant number are also Hamas operatives.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 08:17 AM

Let us now look at a small modification to Bobert's statement:


Hamas needs to rethink it's positions... If not, then the folks there would be better served living somewhere else where they could get along with their neighbors... I'm sure that we here in the US would welcome a good portion of Gaza's population and I'm sure that Europe would as well...



If you think not, then please think why not: Bobert is willing to have Israeli's as neighbors, from the original comment.

I can't imagine why he would object to neihbors who launched rockets at his property...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,guest ifor
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 10:47 AM

ARE THEY HAVING US ON?
Somebody in the Israeli Defence Force must be having us all on!

The Israeli military has spent three weeks blowing up women and children and many other innocent casualties.

The shells,bombs and high velocity round have decapitated ,dismembered and crushed hundreds and thousands of totally innocent babies,infants,young children and teenagers not forgetting young mothers and the elderly. The Israelis ,of course, regard any able bodied male over the age of about 14 as fair game for the shoot.The Israeli military has also been waging chemical warfare and there are many who have suffered hideous burns from the phospherous shells and bombs.

After this mass maiming and killing, the Israelis have very kindly announced it is considering setting up a field hospital in Gaza. I am sure the survivors and the wounded will be very grateful and will make their appreciation known to the Israeli medics and their guards if and when the field hospial is set up!


Oh, and Christian Aid announced today that the Israelis have destroyed a primary health care clinic run by a coalition of christian churches in the city.Luckily, the clinic was empty because again, very kindly, the Israeli military warned the clinic staff and patients to get out in advance of the shelling.

The clinic, which included a dispensary, dealt mainly with moms and their babies and had worked to ensure that despite the economic blockade palestinian mothers would have some basic healthcare for themselves and their children.It was an EEC funded facility.

I wonder how the Israeli are going to look after the housing,health and basic survival needs of the survivors if and when they take over the city which now looks like the chechen capital of Grozny.

4000 maimed palestinians will need medical care for a very long time and it may be that the Israelis will need more than a field hospial and a couple of MASH type tents to do that job.

It is far more likely that having smashed up the city the Israeli will leave firing their missiles behind them as they pull out.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 10:53 AM

Sorry, still looking for all those posts about the horror of suicide bombers killing civilians, Darfur, Mumbai, etc from ifor and Nickhere....


Strange lack, even though the dead civilians are orders of magnitude greater.

I guess when Arab Moslims kill civilians there is no need to comment.


10 more dead civilians in Bagdad... Suicide bomber, so we can ignore them.





BTW, bunker busters are presently made with TNT and surplus 8" cannon barrels. Easy enough to find out, if one wants to know the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,guest ifor
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 11:24 AM

ANOTHER WAR CRIME
Gazan medics have reported finding the body of a 5 month baby girl who had been run over by a 70 tonne Israeli tank. There was no sign of her mother.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,GUEST HUGO
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 11:47 AM

I have just been reading an article by Israeli writer Uri Avnery which says essentially that the Israeli war leader Ehud Barack had a "socipthic disorder" and was displaying a sort of "moral insanity" in his ordering of the slaughter at Gaza.

In view of the terrible atrocities being committed by the Israeli Defence Force in the killing of hundreds and the wounding of thousands I would agree with Uri's assessment of Barack.

In addition the foreign minister is the daughter of two members of the terrorist Stern gang and although I know people can rise above their family circumstances it is clear she has learnt to hate the Paelestinians in a most racist way.

Are they all derranged?
Hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Guest Ifor
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 12:09 PM

The website "counterpunch" carries a very pertinent aand insightful article by the american jewish writer Norman Finkelstein entitled" The Facts About Hamas and the War on Gaza".
He makes a detailed argument that time and time again it is Israel ,backed up by the USA which has blocked a settlement of the Israeli/Palestine crisis.
Well worth reading.
Finkelstein is a hated figure among Zionists and was denied entry to Israel when he tried to enter the country a few months ago.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 01:09 PM

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/postglobal/carlos_alberto_montaner/2009/01/gazas_true_disproportion.html


......

Israelis are being accused of suffering too few casualties in their confrontation with the Hamas terrorists. Those who reason thus usually speak the words "disproportion" or "asymmetry" in an indignant tone. While at this writing close to a thousand Arab Palestinians have died or been wounded as a result of the bombings, the Israeli losses amount to just over a dozen.

Tel Aviv's critics -- from whom an anti-Semitic stench often rises -- do not say whether Israel should increase its quota of cadavers or if it must reduce the Arabs' quota to achieve the reasonable proportion of blood that will soothe the peculiar itch for parity that afflicts them. Nor do they specify the morally permissible number of casualties to end the rain of rockets that for years has been constantly falling on the heads of Israeli civilians.

This demand for "proportionality" can only be called surprising. Until this conflict began, history books everywhere always expressed great satisfaction and a certain chauvinistic pride when a nation's army inflicted on the enemy a large number of casualties, vis-à-vis a trifling price paid by "our boys." Israel is the only country expected to behave differently and, in fact, it does; I know of no other nation that announces where and when it will drop its bombs, thus enabling civilians to evacuate the territory. Of course, in this it behaves asymmetrically, because the Hamas terrorists, forever eager to cause the greatest damage possible, never announce when or where they will launch their rockets against Israel's civilian population.

In turn, Israel has not the slightest interest in causing casualties. All it wants is to stop Hamas' attacks the only way it can: by eliminating the terrorists and destroying their arsenals. There's no other way to deal with them. Hamas is not a political organization with which agreements can be reached, but a fanatical gang intent on wiping Israel off the map. To achieve this objective, its members are even willing to turn their own children into human bombs, just to kill the hated Jews.

Here's another very important asymmetry. The Jews build underground shelters in all houses near the border; they close the schools and hide the children at the least sign of danger; they treat the death of a single soldier as a national tragedy; they do everything possible to rescue their prisoners, and protect the civilian population from the consequences of war. In contrast, the authorities in Gaza, drunk with violence, fire their machine guns irresponsibly into the air to express joy or grief (causing numerous injuries), do not hesitate to install their headquarters or hide their guns in schools, mosques or hospitals, use human shields to protect themselves, turn to suicidal terrorists and reward the families of such "martyrs" with money.

.....

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 01:25 PM

I was minded to put that slightly differently.

Gazans can fight - and die.
Or they can stop fighting, and with no water, no imports, no exports, no infrastructure, no fishing rights, and no way out, they can starve.

They are in a non-survivable ghetto.

Not much of a choice is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,GUEST IFOR
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 02:13 PM

There are voices in Israel and amongst the wider Jewish community which have spoken out and demonstrated against the atrocities being committed by the IDF in Gaza.

Are these Jewish anti war people anti semitic or is that a convenient accusation against those who are opposed to the mass slaughter of civilians in Gaza in particular ,and the disastrous policies of the Israeli State against the Palestinians in general?

Guest Hugo above quotes the Israeli writer Uri Avnery of describing the Israeli warleader as having a "sociopathic disorder" and from the sight of those monster bombs exploding in Gaza today it must be impossible to disagree with that description.

Norman Finkelstein, whose parents were concentration camps survivors, is equally scathing about the horrors being inflicted by the Israeli leaders against the residents of Gaza.

Those huge bombs must have killed or maimed many civilians .They looked to have the power of a small nuclear bomb! Anyone who ordered their use in a overcrowded dying city must be a sick war criminal.


It is clear that a bunch of killers are now at the helm of the Israeli state . They have unleashed death and destruction on an industrial scale against the Palestinians...this after throttling the city for the past two years.

"..Israel has not the slightest interest in causing casualties" writes one supporter of Israel .

When are you going to stop excusing these psychokillers who are murdering and maiming by the hundreds in Gaza?

Some 4000 people,overwhelmingly civilian and including many children have been maimed or broken by these bombs and shells and there is the "stench" that is spreading from Gaza.... and Tel Aviv!


ifor
IFOR

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 02:28 PM

Two Israeli arab political parties have been banned from next month's election because they are opposed to the attack on Gaza.

Like most everything else Guest Ifor says, that is a lie.

According the Israel Central Elections Committee report, the Balad and United Arab List-Ta'al parties were disqualified because they specifically "call for armed conflict against Israel."

Other Arab parties that do not make such a call have not been disqualified.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 03:10 PM

When the UN recognised the existence of Israel it did not recognise the right of one set of inhabitants to exclude to another set of inhabitants who had fled as refugees in the war. It would have been impossible to recognise such a breach of human rights.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 03:25 PM

Egypt pushes Hamas to accept truce
Tuesday, January 13, 2009 2:11:50 PM
By SALAH NASRAWI

Egyptian mediators pushed the militant Palestinian Hamas group to accept a truce proposal for the embattled Gaza Strip in talks Tuesday, while the U.N. secretary-general headed to the region to join the multitrack diplomatic efforts for a cease-fire.

U.N. chief Ban Ki-moon has backed the Egyptian truce proposal to halt the fighting, now in its third week. Before leaving New York for the Egyptian capital on Tuesday, he urged Israel and Hamas to accept a U.N. cease-fire resolution and allow humanitarian aid into Gaza.

"To both sides, I say: Just stop, now," Ban told a news conference Monday. "Too many people have died." He said Hamas militants who have been firing rockets into southern Israel "must stop, they must look to the future of the Palestinian people."

The U.N. Security Council on Tuesday gave its full support to Ban after he briefed the council behind closed doors ahead of his week-long trip. All 15 members gave their strong backing to the secretary-general's diplomatic mission.

Israel's point man to the cease-fire talks, Defense Ministry official Amos Gilad, is also slated to come to Cairo Thursday, Israeli Defense Ministry officials said Tuesday. Officials had initially said Gilad would travel Wednesday, then changed the day to Thursday. Gilad had put off the trip for days, saying the time was not yet ripe.

Defense officials say that depending on what happens in Cairo, Israel will decide to move closer to a cease-fire or whether to launch a new, even tougher stage of its offensive. They spoke on condition of anonymity because they were discussing sensitive policy matters.

Ban won't be meeting Hamas officials and has no plans to go to Gaza during his trip, which will also include Jordan, Israel, the Palestinian-controlled West Bank, Turkey, Lebanon, Syria and Kuwait.

Tuesday's talks between Hamas and Egyptian officials in Cairo were the latest in intensive diplomatic efforts. In Damascus, the Turkish prime minister's top foreign policy adviser, Ahmet Davutoglu, met for the third time in two days with Hamas' exiled political leader, Khaled Mashaal, about truce proposals.

But so far, the push has yielded little public progress. A Palestinian official close to Hamas said the previous round of Egypt-Hamas talks on Sunday were "stormy."

During that session, Egypt's top mediator, intelligence chief Omar Suleiman, told Hamas to accept Egypt's truce proposal without amendments or else Hamas will be considered responsible for Israel's continuing offensive in Gaza, the Palestinian official said, speaking on condition of anonymity for discussing the closed-door talks.

http://www.mail.com/Article.aspx?articlepath=APNews\General-World-News\20090113\ML-Mideast-Diplomacy.xml&cat=world&subcat=&pageid=1

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 03:26 PM

"I know of no other nation that announces where and when it will drop its bombs, thus enabling civilians to evacuate the territory"

Yer wrong BBruce, For 30 years the IRA nearly always telephoned warnings before setting off one of their bombs.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST, guest ifor
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 03:27 PM

"Two Israeli arab political parties have been banned from next month's election because they are oppsed to the attack on Gaza".

C Ham says the statement is a lie ...but the fact is it is true.

The full story can be read on the BBC News website but essentially both Balad and the UAL ,two democratic parties have been barred from next month's elections to the Israeli Knesset.

The move to ban both these Arab parties was led by two ultra nationalist Israeli parties called the National Union and Israel Beitein.These parties certainly did not want representatives from the Israeli Arab electorate standing in the Knesset next month and charging the state of Israel with war crimes in front of the world's cameras.

Both Israeli Arab parties have called for Israel to become a proper functioning democracy with full democratic rights for all its citizens but this conflicts with the Zionist policy of a theocratic Israel.Hence the banning!

Israeli Arabs are second class citizens in Israel and their political representatives are treated with a mixture of loathing and disdain.

It is true there have been several large Israeli Arab protests against the war...protest supported by anti war Israelis and of course the warcriminals directing Israel's slaughter in Gaza would be very angry at anti war protests coming from inside Israel itself. again, hence the banning.
IFOR

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 03:43 PM

Nickhere,

That was from a posted article, not my own words,

I am glad to know that the IRA was a nation, or the duly elected government of one.


ifor, you miss the point: Calling for the destruction of the nation one is a citizen of is usually defined as "treason" and often loses one the right to be an organized political party. Since the other "Arab" parties still exist, and continue to have seats in the Knesset, you need something more to make your point.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 03:47 PM

McGrath,

When the UN recognised the existence of Israel it did not recognise the right of one set of inhabitants to drive out another set of inhabitants.

Yet that is what the Arab League attempted. Israel HAS an Arab population- Jordan does not have a Jewish population. Yet Jordan had control of the West Bank from 1948 until 1967- Please tell me where the Jewish inhabitants of the West Bank are????


Could they be amoung the 820,000 Jews from Arab nations that Israel resettled?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 03:54 PM

To beardedbruce
It might be that the Israeli Arabs simply abhor the carnage that has been unleashed in the slaughterhouse of Gaza by the Israeli military.

I know we are all here on Mudcat because of our love of folk music but over there in Gaza the folk are being maimed and murdered by the thousands.

I should have added that the leader of one of those ultra nationalist parties Avigdor Lieberman has apparently called for his government to adopt the "Japanese solution "in Gaza referring to the dropping of the Hiroshima bomb.

His party is thought to come fourth in next month's election!
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 04:02 PM

ifor,

IMHO NO-ONE likes the present carnage in Gaza, but some of us have decided that it is preferable to the constant rocket attacks upon innocent Israeli civilians ( that neither you nor the UN, nor any of those nations protesting Israel's actions ever even commented upon) for years upon end.

Israel has stated this will end when Hamas stops firing rockets, and the world prevents Hamas from rearming.

Since the UN promised ( 2006 Lebanon ceasefire terms) that Hezboallah would NOT be rearmed, and it was ( since it seems UN Ceasefires only apply to Israeli actions, not others) there has to be a serious commitment to stopping Hamas from rearming.


Yet Hamas is still firing rockets at innocent civilians- and the UN is telling them to stop.

Egypt is telling them to stop.

Jordan is telling them to stop.

Iran and Syria ( the nations that violated the 2006 UN ceasefire to rearm Hezboallah) are the only ones NOT telling them to stop.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 04:19 PM

"constant rocket attacks upon innocent Israeli civilians"

So far 10 Israeli soldiers have died along with 3 civilians killed by rocket fire.

well over 900 Palestinians have died in this latest conflit & almost 4500 wounded, most of these are women & children

Where do you get off asking for that kind of unbalanced peace & security?


"Israel has stated this will end when Hamas stops firing rockets, and the world prevents Hamas from rearming"

Bullshit! Hamas has agreed to stop if Israel will pull out of Gaza & open the border.
Israel has not agreed to anything until it has leveled Gaza!


Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 04:21 PM

Wrong, Barry.

"Tel Aviv's critics -- from whom an anti-Semitic stench often rises -- do not say whether Israel should increase its quota of cadavers or if it must reduce the Arabs' quota to achieve the reasonable proportion of blood that will soothe the peculiar itch for parity that afflicts them. Nor do they specify the morally permissible number of casualties to end the rain of rockets that for years has been constantly falling on the heads of Israeli civilians.

This demand for "proportionality" can only be called surprising. Until this conflict began, history books everywhere always expressed great satisfaction and a certain chauvinistic pride when a nation's army inflicted on the enemy a large number of casualties, vis-à-vis a trifling price paid by "our boys." Israel is the only country expected to behave differently and, in fact, it does; I know of no other nation that announces where and when it will drop its bombs, thus enabling civilians to evacuate the territory. Of course, in this it behaves asymmetrically, because the Hamas terrorists, forever eager to cause the greatest damage possible, never announce when or where they will launch their rockets against Israel's civilian population."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: DougR
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 04:26 PM

Bobert (and other Hamas sympathizers):Do you believe it is unreasonable for Israel to insist that any cease-fire agreement MUST include guarantees that Hamas MUST stop firing rockets into Israeli neighborhoods and Hamas must agree to cease importing Syrian and Iranian weapons into Gaza?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 04:37 PM

Yes Doug & what will the Israeli's stop doing & what are they willing to give up?

BB, as for stockpiling cadavers & spilling buckets of blood, Israel shows that they'll consider the limitless suppy of Palestinians they kept & had under their feet & that they are willing to eraidicate the whole population just to prove their point. Then they can have Gaza, the West Bank 7 the rest of the OT to themselves. May their seed fail in the desert sands.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 04:43 PM

As in the past, it is the Palestinians that have been asked to give & the Israeli's only to get & even then the Israeli's have not abided & have pushed for more. Again they will have more blood & will not stop. The US needs to stop it's backing & funding of Israel. Let Israel live on it's own in it's own neighborhood & see how they will then behave without their big stebrother, the US, to have their back. They might prove to then become a "good neighbor"? As it is I wouldn't want them in my backyard.


Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 06:53 PM

Listen, Dougie... Have you seen these rockets??? They were on TV last week and look like they were made by some junior high school student for his C- science experiement... I mean, they are junk... You could make a better rocket, Dougie...

So these junkers are being made in Iran??? And this is why Israel requested nuclear bunker buster bombs???

What do ya'll think we are??? Friggin' morons, 'er what???

I mean, lets get real here... This entire war is being fought between a desperate population using stone aged weapons verses a USA supplies and trained military... That's why the score is 1000-10 in favor of the Israels and of those 10, 6 were from friendly fire so the real score is 1000-4...

This isn't even a war... This is like when rich guys go to those hunt places where the game is trucked in to be shot... You know, like when Dick Cheney went out and shot and killed 70 some doves that were raised to be shot up by some rich-ass fat-ass white dude...

That is reality...

And now we are being fed alot of BS about how we should be afraid of Iran???

Give me a break...

This is like the junk that the inspectors found in Iraq... Remember the model airplane they showed us in the mad-dash-days... It was a friggin' hobby store remote... But they told US that Saddam was gonna put ant-trax in it and fly it over the US and kill everyone...

Hardy-har-har...

I'm sick of being lied to and I'm sick of Israel tonight...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 07:33 PM

Depends what you mean by "calling for the destruction of the nation one is a citizen of". It's quite common for people quite legitimately to wish for that to happen, and frequently they are successful.

The Scottish National Party in Scotland, Plaid Cymru in Wales, and the SDLP and Sinn Fein in Northern Ireland all call for a constitutional settlement in which the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland would cease to exist. It's not long since the countries Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, the German Democratic Republic and the USSR were wiped off the map.
......................

Justice is not determined by tit-for-tat. Ethnic cleansing is always criminal. Insofar as Jews were driven into exile in Israel by other countries, that was an injustice, and a peaceful settlement in the Middle East should seek to remedy it - but that does not mean that the exclusion of the exiled inhabitants of the country that is now Israel was or is legitimate.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sorcha
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 07:43 PM

Bobert, I THANK you for that post. I AGREE with you!!! The US is so scared of being seen as Anti Semitic that we won't do a damn thing to stop this horror. I am not a Christian, but I say unto you, suffer the little children.....

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 07:52 PM

I ain't anti-Semetic either, Sorch... But over the last week I have become very anti-Israel...

I think that the UN needs to renogotiate the deal that gave this land that we call Israel to European Jews... It clearly ain't workin' for anyone in the region... Heck, why not just give these folks Utah or Wyoming 'casue there ain't but a half a dozen or so folks in either of them states (lol)...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 07:57 PM

From The Independent (London) for Wednesday 14th January:

At least three Palestinians in Gaza were shot dead yesterday after Israeli soldiers fired on a group of residents leaving their homes on orders from the military and waving white flags, according to testimony taken by the Israeli human rights group B'Tselem. The testimony was rejected by the military after what it said was a preliminary investigation....

...In Gaza, Munir Shafik al-Najar told B'Tselem that members of his extended family started trying to leave their homes after the Israeli army began demolishing buildings in the area of Kuza'a, close to the Israeli border with south-eastern Gaza. Mr Najar said the Israeli soldiers were using gunfire to signify that residents should leave, but then started shooting "indiscriminately".

He testified that his relative Rawhiya had stepped out of the family-owned building, one of whose walls had been destroyed by a bulldozer, expecting her family to follow, but she was shot. The military subsequently attacked another group escaping leaving two more of his relatives dead. The military said late last night that it had found the claim to be "without foundation".

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 08:12 PM

It's bad enough that the borders have been closed off so that the civilian population cannot flee the destruction raining down on them and now they can't flee their own housing when the walls are falling in on them. This is the same Nation whose people sought international justice & asylum from the hands of the Nazi's. They are now subjecting the people of Palestine, who are forced to live in the same getto situation, to the same treatment that brought such shame to a world that couldn't believe that such eveil could exist. The world is fast turning it's back on Israel & opening their eyes towards Palestine. Israel will bring it's own hell home.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 08:30 PM

Yeah, Barry, I agree with everything you have said... Israel has lost this war in the hearts and minds of the international community...

Yeah, this may get some hardliners in Israel elected, much in the way that Bush used Iraq in the 2004 election, but this one is going to come back to haunt Israel and these hardliners...

I repeat: Israel has lost this war!!!

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 08:59 PM

BBRuce, I kinda guessed you'd pick me up on the use of the term 'nation' - I put my hands up , of course. But nations aside my point was that the Israelis aren't the only ones to warn they were going to blow something up in advance. Course this doesn't make it alright either. Looks nice, but could be done for several reasons, or mixture of same:

Looks good from PR point of view. In later years the IRA wanted to avoid civilian casualties as they look bad and don't help the cause. Blowing up property can be nearly as effective: in the 90s the IRA switched to economic targets as they realised the UK could always find plenty more cannon fodder while hurting them in the pocket really hurt them. After Canary Wharf was blown up a number of leading financial institutions threatened to quit and go elsewhere if security weren't guaranteed. And of course the UK couldn't guarantee no bomb would ever get through as no one can guarantee that except in the movies.

In Gaza motives are a bit different maybe. No point trying to hurt Gazans in the pocket, they're as poor as church mice anyway. But blow up their houses and terrorize them and they'll have to leave, as they'll have nothing to come home to - in fact, no homes to come home to. Houses can easily be rebuilt if Israel decides to move back in, more of a nuisance to get rid of the natives. Plus it's a collective punishment as all Palestinians are being held to account, for the actions of Islamic Jihad or Hamas. Ok, they voted for Hamas, but a majority of Israeli citizens voted for the hawks in Knesset. Does that justify Hamas' indiscriminate rocket attacks? There has also been a crackdown on anti-war activists (Israeli arab or Jewish alike) in recent weeks in Israel. There are some people there who just don't want the violence to stop it seems, and not only on the Hamas side.

You say Hamas are doing wrong by their citizens. I suppose the Israelis are really doing their bit to alleviate their suffering as well, mainly by putting them out of their misery. Thats's really turning things on their head - blow them to hell and blame them for their own misfortune.

I think the problem many people have with this conflict is not that they support or condone Hamas but that it's so lopsided and out of all proportion. It was also planned for months and is not just some sort of knee jerk reaction to a handful of rockets in November. Maybe the Israeli army wanted to recover its image after its defeat in Lebanon, but this is just shooting ducks in a barrel. Let them go and take on the Chinese or Russians - who at least have armies as advanced and well-equipped if much bigger. Nor will it stop the violence or rockets. It'll slow them down for a bit but it'll leave a sea of resentment and desperation that guarantee another intifada or whatever, and more heavy-handed responses from Israel (maybe that's what they want).

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 09:04 PM

BBRuce - "Since the UN promised ( 2006 Lebanon ceasefire terms) that Hezboallah would NOT be rearmed, and it was ( since it seems UN Ceasefires only apply to Israeli actions, not others)"

Erm, more like NO UN resolutions are being enforced against ANYONE (apart from Iraq)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 12:12 AM

The more the glorification of the murderous Hamas regime and their ilk, the less of a reason Israel has to go after them full steam, dressed as civilians as they are, unmindful of Geneva as they (Hamas) are, and fighting from the ranks of civilian sites as they are.

All the complaints about what Israel should or shouldn't do now doesn't do any good to solving the situation they find themselves in. I doubt that Israel has lost any friends among those who perceive it is an existential threat from a murderous regime (Hitler in rags was still Hitler, or do you shed a tear during the Bunker scene?).

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 04:11 AM

If the elected government is "the murderous Hamas regime" then it surely is an apprentice one.

Its master must be the Israeli regime next door which has murdered tens of thousands over the past few decades.

Almost all the atrocities and destruction we have seen happen in Gaza have been done by Israel in the recent or fairly recent past.

The mass bombing with shells,missiles and huge bombs? Tick! Done it before in Lebanon 2006 and 1982.

The slaughtering of defenceless refugees in their camps?Tick! Thousands murdered under the direction of that old killer Ariel Sharon in Sabra and Shatilla [Beirut ] in 1982.

The bombing of refugees in United Nations facilities ? Tick.The Israeli airforce killed almost a hundred Palestinian women and children at Qana in 2006.

The expulsion of refugees from their home? Tick ! Around 750000 Palestinians from their homes and land in the Nakba of 1948.They have never ben allowed to return .Some of these are now being terrorised in Gaza .

The destruction of Universities,clinics and hospitals?Tick!The Israeli bombing of Lebanon's infrastructure in 2006 killed and mutilated thousandsof Lebanese civilians.

The use of assassination squads on the West Bank in recent years is a reminder that the Zionists came to power having hung two British soldiers on wire hooks to remind the British to get out of Palestine. The present Foreign Minister's father was a member of the terrorist Stern Gang that did it share of the killing back in 1948.

The list goes on but Israel can accurately be described as a murderous regime that specialises in the mass murder , humiliation and intimidation of the Palestinian people.

However,as it wades through a river of gore in Gaza things are going wrong for the killing machine.

As the Jewish socialist writer Isaac Deutscher wrote about Israel warned towards the end of his life in the late 1960s
"You have become the Prussians of the Middle East.Be careful you may triumph yourself to death">
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 07:00 AM

Bobert,

"And this is why Israel requested nuclear bunker buster bombs???"


Not nuclear- stop your lies!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 07:06 AM

Ifor,

"The expulsion of refugees from their home? Tick ! Around 750000 Palestinians from their homes and land in the Nakba of 1948.They have never ben allowed to return .Some of these are now being terrorised in Gaza ."

Factual correction: 640,000 by ARAB figures. And I note you do not mention the 820,000 Arab JEWS driven from their homes?

Or the many Arab Moslims who stayed in Israel?

How many Jews are there in Arab countries?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 07:51 AM

Stop your lies, BB...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 08:13 AM

"Israel requested nuclear bunker buster bombs" Bobert lie they ARE NOT nuclear.


Modern

During Operation Desert Storm (1991) there was a need for deep penetration bomb similar to the British weapons of World War II, but none of the NATO air forces had such a weapon, though the RAF possesses several of Barnes Wallis' bombs as museum pieces. As a stop-gap, some were developed rapidly over a period of 28 days, using old 8 inch (203 mm) artillery barrels as casings. These bombs weighed over two tons but carried only 647 lb of high explosive. They were laser-guided and were designated "Guided Bomb Unit-28 (GBU-28)", and worked very effectively.

More recently the US has developed a series of custom made bombs to penetrate hardened or deeply buried structures:

Depth of Penetration Weapon Systems
Penetration of reinforced concrete: 1.8 m (6 ft) BLU-109 Penetrator GBU-10, GBU-15, GBU-24, GBU-27, AGM-130
Penetration of reinforced concrete: 3.4 m (11 ft) BLU-116 Advanced Unitary Penetrator (AUP) GBU-15, GBU-24, GBU-27, AGM-130
Penetration of reinforced concrete: 3.4 m (11 ft) BLU-118/B Thermobaric Warhead GBU-15, GBU-24, AGM-130
Penetration of reinforced concrete: more than 6 m (20 ft) BLU-113 Super Penetrator GBU-28, GBU-37


[edit] Fusing
The traditional fuse is the same as a classic armor-piercing bomb: a combination of timer and a sturdy dynamic propeller on the rear of the bomb. The fuse is armed when the bomb is released, and detonates when the propeller stops turning and the timer has expired.

Modern bunker busters may use the traditional fuse, but some also include a microphone and micro controller. The microphone listens, and the micro controller counts floors until the bomb breaks through the desired numbers of floors.


[edit] Missiles

A guided bomb strikes its target in a weapons testThe extra speed provided by a rocket motor enables greater penetration of a missile-mounted bunker buster warhead. To reach maximum penetration (Impact depth), the warhead may consist of a high density projectile only. Such a warhead carries more energy than a warhead with chemical explosives (kinetic energy of a projectile at hypervelocity).


[edit] Halts in production
The McAlester, Oklahoma production plant for the U.S. Military halted the production of 2,000 pound (900 kg) bunker buster bombs on two occasions. The first, on February 8, 2005, revealed that 17 employees who made the weapons had low blood oxygen levels because of their exposure to trinitrotoluene (TNT). Later in August, 34 workers were also found to be anemic. Production restarted on January 1, 2005 after a new ventilation system was installed, but halted again on March 2 of the same year when blood tests confirmed continued adverse effects to employee health from TNT exposure. [2]

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 08:24 AM

Let me see...

Bobert makes a fales statement.

I correct him

"Date: 13 Jan 09 - 10:53 AM

.......
BTW, bunker busters are presently made with TNT and surplus 8" cannon barrels. Easy enough to find out, if one wants to know the truth. "



Bobert repeats falsehood:

" Bobert
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 06:53 PM

.....
So these junkers are being made in Iran??? And this is why Israel requested nuclear bunker buster bombs???"




I correct Bobert a second time:

"
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 07:00 AM

Bobert,

"And this is why Israel requested nuclear bunker buster bombs???"


Not nuclear- stop your lies! "




Bobert calls me a liar:

".
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 07:51 AM

Stop your lies, BB... "





So, if one tells a lie repeatedly, but Bobert wants it to be true, it is true.

And repeating the truth makes one a liar, when Bobert disagrees with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 08:30 AM

The second bomb that was fitted with a GAM guidance kit was the 2000 kg (4500 lb) class BLU-113/B "bunker buster" penetrator warhead, which had been developed on a "crash" basis for Operation Desert Storm in 1991 (for details, see GBU-28/B Paveway III). The GAM-equipped BLU-113/B, also known as "GAM-113", was designated GBU-37/B. The first drop of a GBU-37/B from a B-2 occurred in May 1997, and it's possible that weapons of this type were operationally used in Afghanistan in 2001 (but reports are conflicting). The GBU-37/B is replaced by the GBU-28C/B, a development of the GBU-28/B laser-guided bomb with an improved warhead and additional GPS/INS guidance.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 08:35 AM

"According to official records of the League of Nations and Arab census figure 539,000 Arabs left Israel at the urging of 7 converging Arab armies so that they would not be in the way of their attack. They promised the fleeing Arabs they would return and move into the Jews' houses after the anticipated successful annihilation of the Jews.
"We know that 850,000 Jews were ejected from the Arab countries where they had lived for hundreds of years. This included successful people whose property and assets, including community assets were immediately confiscated. 750,000 penniless Jews from Arab countries fled to Israel.

"This was a virtual exchange of population. The Jewish refugees were immediately accepted by the new State of Israel. They were provided with shelter (albeit temporary tents) food and clothing.

"The Arab refugees who had migrated to various Arab nations were not similarly well received. They were regarded not as Arab brothers but as unwelcome migrants who were not to be trusted. Squalid refugee camps were set up as showpieces to induce the West's sympathy and kept that way. The UN through UNRWA (UN Relief Agency) provided assistance to the camps when the host country could not or would not. These camps became a training ground for terrorist youth to be targeted at Israel. The host country, like Syria, would provide training, weapons and explosives, but refused to absorb the Arab refugees as equal citizens. Keeping them in misery made them valuable and irreplaceable as angry front line terrorists attacking Israel as proxies for the Arab armies who lost to the Jews on the field of battle in declared wars. The Twin Pillars supporting Arab Muslim society are "Pride and Shame". Losing to the Jews on the battlefield time and again in 6 wars shattered the self perception of the Macho Man.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 08:37 AM

"Of the 62,000 Arabs who formerly lived in Haifa not more than 5,000 or 6,000 remained. Various factors influenced their decision to seek safety in flight. There is but little doubt that the most potent of the factors were the announcements made over the air by the -Higher Arab Executive, urging the Arabs to quit.. . . It was clearly intimated that those Arabs who remained in Haifa and accepted Jewish protection would be regarded as renegades."
- The London weekly Economist, October 2, 1948


"It must not be forgotten that the Arab Higher Committee encouraged the refugees' flight from their homes in Jaffa, Haifa, and Jerusalem."
- Near East Arabic Broadcasting Station, Cyprus, April 3, 1949


"This wholesale exodus was due partly to the belief of the Arabs, encouraged by the boasting of an unrealistic Arab press and the irresponsible utterances of some of the Arab leaders that it could be only a matter of some weeks before the Jews were defeated by the armies of the Arab States and the Palestinian Arabs enabled to re-enter and retake possession of their country."
- Edward Atiyah (then Secretary of the Arab League Office in London) in The Arabs (London, 1955), p. 183


"The mass evacuation, prompted partly by fear, partly by order of Arab leaders, left the Arab quarter of Haifa a ghost city...By withdrawing Arab workers their leaders hoped to paralyze Haifa.".
- Time, May 3, 1948, p. 25


The Arab exodus, initially at least, was encouraged by many Arab leaders, such as Haj Amin el Husseini, the exiled pro-Nazi Mufti of Jerusalem, and by the Arab Higher Committee for Palestine. They viewed the first wave of Arab setbacks as merely transitory. Let the Palestine Arabs flee into neighboring countries. It would serve to arouse the other Arab peoples to greater effort, and when the Arab invasion struck, the Palestinians could return to their homes and be compensated with the property of Jews driven into the sea.
- Kenneth Bilby, in New Star in the Near East (New York, 1950), pp. 30-31


I do not want to impugn anybody but only to help the refugees. The fact that there are these refugees is the direct consequence of the action of the Arab States in opposing Partition and the Jewish State. The Arab States agreed upon this policy unanimously and they must share in the solution of the problem, [Daily Telegraph, September 6, 19481
- Emil Ghoury, Secretary of the Arab Higher Committee, the official leadership of the Palestinian Arabs, in the Beirut newspaper, Daily Telegraph, September 6, 1948


The Arab States encouraged the Palestine Arabs to leave their homes temporarily in order to be out of the way of the Arab invasion armies.
- Falastin (Jordanian newspaper), February 19, 1949


We will smash the country with our guns and obliterate every place the Jews seek shelter in. The Arabs should conduct their wives and children to safe areas until the fighting has died down.
- Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri Said, quoted in Sir Am Nakbah ("The Secret Behind the Disaster") by Nimr el Hawari, Nazareth, 1952


The Secretary General of the Arab League, Azzam Pasha, assured the Arab peoples that the occupation of Palestine and of Tel Aviv would be as simple as a military promenade. . . . He pointed out that they were already on the frontiers and that all the millions the Jews had spent on land and economic development would be easy booty, for it would be a simple matter to throw Jews into the Mediterranean. . . Brotherly advice was given to the Arabs of Palestine to leave their land, homes, and property and to stay temporarily in neighboring fraternal states, lest the guns of the invading Arab armies mow them down.
- Habib Issa, Secretary General of the Arab League (Azzam Pasha's successor), in the newspaper Al Hoda, June 8, 1951


Some of the Arab leaders and their ministers in Arab capitals . . . declared that they welcomed the immigration of Palestinian Arabs into the Arab countries until they saved Palestine. Many of the Palestinian Arabs were misled by their declarations.... It was natural for those Palestinian Arabs who felt impelled to leave their country to take refuge in Arab lands . . . and to stay in such adjacent places in order to maintain contact with their country so that to return to it would be easy when, according to the promises of many of those responsible in the Arab countries (promises which were given wastefully), the time was ripe. Many were of the opinion that such an opportunity would come in the hours between sunset and sunrise.
- Arab Higher Committee, in a memorandum to the Arab League, Cairo, 1952, quoted in The Refugee in the World, by Joseph B. Schechtman, 1963


"The Arab governments told us: Get out so that we can get in. So we got out, but they did not get in."
- from the Jordan daily Ad Difaa, September 6, 1954

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 08:47 AM

sorry...

http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/app5/index.html


Is there some reason that actually checking statements BEFORE blaming others that they are wrong is frowned upon?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 08:49 AM

Looking at my 08:37 post, I see that it is possibly excessively long.


Clones, please delete it and I will repost in smaller posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 08:50 AM

"Of the 62,000 Arabs who formerly lived in Haifa not more than 5,000 or 6,000 remained. Various factors influenced their decision to seek safety in flight. There is but little doubt that the most potent of the factors were the announcements made over the air by the -Higher Arab Executive, urging the Arabs to quit.. . . It was clearly intimated that those Arabs who remained in Haifa and accepted Jewish protection would be regarded as renegades."
- The London weekly Economist, October 2, 1948


"It must not be forgotten that the Arab Higher Committee encouraged the refugees' flight from their homes in Jaffa, Haifa, and Jerusalem."
- Near East Arabic Broadcasting Station, Cyprus, April 3, 1949


"This wholesale exodus was due partly to the belief of the Arabs, encouraged by the boasting of an unrealistic Arab press and the irresponsible utterances of some of the Arab leaders that it could be only a matter of some weeks before the Jews were defeated by the armies of the Arab States and the Palestinian Arabs enabled to re-enter and retake possession of their country."
- Edward Atiyah (then Secretary of the Arab League Office in London) in The Arabs (London, 1955), p. 183

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 08:51 AM

"The mass evacuation, prompted partly by fear, partly by order of Arab leaders, left the Arab quarter of Haifa a ghost city...By withdrawing Arab workers their leaders hoped to paralyze Haifa.".
- Time, May 3, 1948, p. 25


The Arab exodus, initially at least, was encouraged by many Arab leaders, such as Haj Amin el Husseini, the exiled pro-Nazi Mufti of Jerusalem, and by the Arab Higher Committee for Palestine. They viewed the first wave of Arab setbacks as merely transitory. Let the Palestine Arabs flee into neighboring countries. It would serve to arouse the other Arab peoples to greater effort, and when the Arab invasion struck, the Palestinians could return to their homes and be compensated with the property of Jews driven into the sea.
- Kenneth Bilby, in New Star in the Near East (New York, 1950), pp. 30-31


I do not want to impugn anybody but only to help the refugees. The fact that there are these refugees is the direct consequence of the action of the Arab States in opposing Partition and the Jewish State. The Arab States agreed upon this policy unanimously and they must share in the solution of the problem, [Daily Telegraph, September 6, 19481
- Emil Ghoury, Secretary of the Arab Higher Committee, the official leadership of the Palestinian Arabs, in the Beirut newspaper, Daily Telegraph, September 6, 1948


The Arab States encouraged the Palestine Arabs to leave their homes temporarily in order to be out of the way of the Arab invasion armies.
- Falastin (Jordanian newspaper), February 19, 1949

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 08:52 AM

We will smash the country with our guns and obliterate every place the Jews seek shelter in. The Arabs should conduct their wives and children to safe areas until the fighting has died down.
- Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri Said, quoted in Sir Am Nakbah ("The Secret Behind the Disaster") by Nimr el Hawari, Nazareth, 1952


The Secretary General of the Arab League, Azzam Pasha, assured the Arab peoples that the occupation of Palestine and of Tel Aviv would be as simple as a military promenade. . . . He pointed out that they were already on the frontiers and that all the millions the Jews had spent on land and economic development would be easy booty, for it would be a simple matter to throw Jews into the Mediterranean. . . Brotherly advice was given to the Arabs of Palestine to leave their land, homes, and property and to stay temporarily in neighboring fraternal states, lest the guns of the invading Arab armies mow them down.
- Habib Issa, Secretary General of the Arab League (Azzam Pasha's successor), in the newspaper Al Hoda, June 8, 1951


Some of the Arab leaders and their ministers in Arab capitals . . . declared that they welcomed the immigration of Palestinian Arabs into the Arab countries until they saved Palestine. Many of the Palestinian Arabs were misled by their declarations.... It was natural for those Palestinian Arabs who felt impelled to leave their country to take refuge in Arab lands . . . and to stay in such adjacent places in order to maintain contact with their country so that to return to it would be easy when, according to the promises of many of those responsible in the Arab countries (promises which were given wastefully), the time was ripe. Many were of the opinion that such an opportunity would come in the hours between sunset and sunrise.
- Arab Higher Committee, in a memorandum to the Arab League, Cairo, 1952, quoted in The Refugee in the World, by Joseph B. Schechtman, 1963


"The Arab governments told us: Get out so that we can get in. So we got out, but they did not get in."
- from the Jordan daily Ad Difaa, September 6, 1954

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 10:27 AM

Well guest ifor, those Israeli Arabs, should thank their lucky stars that they did not exercise dissention in Gaza, the punishments inflicted there would have seen them thrown from the tops of high-rise buildings, or I suppose crucified if they were deemed to be "weakening the spirit of the people". By the bye they have not been banned there have been moves to bar them and the result of that appeal will not be known until Friday.

Usual emotive crap from Akenaton, historically a keeper of slaves, were they Jewish slaves? I must look that up. Ake if you are fighting a battle you fight it to win, there are no other considerations. I found it rather cynical the other night listening to a Prince of the Royal House of Saud complaining bitterly that the Israelis weren't fighting "by the rules" as they ought to - No mention at all of any obligation on the part of Hamas or the other Jihadist Groups having to do the same of course.

Now, if Israel and the IDF were indeed acting as Akenaton and others on this forum have suggested with regard to civilians, then by now there wouldn't be anybody alive in Gaza at all, the percentage of "civilians" killed still however amounts to around 0.03% of the population. Gaza has not been "flattened", there has been no "blanket bombing". Oh Akenaton there never was any confirmation of those thousands of South Ossetians killed by the Georgians was there?

And now we have a new "BOBERT FACT" used by Bobert to make his mind up about something:

"With every passing day I am less and less "sure" that Israel has a right to exist...

I mean, the Bush administration's own refusal to give Israel more bunker buster bombs, which BTW I believe are nuclear, really turned my thinking..."

There is no such thing Bobert as a "nuclear bunker busting bomb", the US did trials on the casings for them and could not get them to work, all a simple matter of record Bobert, it was all explained to Congress, who have to sign off on the US military budget and how it is spent. But I know that you will not look into that and "YOUR" nuclear bunker buster bomb will join the ranks of "the heads on sticks" and the "3000 Patriot missiles per day". Doesn't help your argument at all when it is so clearly based on lies and myth.

The bunker busters if supplied would in fact reduce the likely-hood of "civilian" casualties if used against deep bunkers and would definitely be useful in the destruction of the supply tunnels, through which Hamas chose to smuggle arms instead of food or medical supplies. Now who was it needed which most and what did the "elected government" of the Palestinians in Gaza deliver??

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: pdq
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 11:07 AM

"They promised the fleeing Arabs they would return and move into the Jews' houses after the anticipated successful annihilation of the Jews."

"...and when the Arab invasion struck, the Palestinians could return to their homes and be compensated with the property of Jews driven into the sea."

This is the "party line" that the Arabs of the West Bank and Gaza have been fed for 60+ years. Why bother getting educated, starting businesses, working hard or being responsible citizens? After all, as soon as the evil Jews are exterminated, the Arabs will move into their houses, take their diamonds and gold, and live like royalty. The fools have bought this BS for several generations.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 02:40 PM

I hate it when the NYT has something reasonable to say...


http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/14/opinion/14friedman.html


Op-Ed Columnist
Israel's Goals in Gaza?
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN
Published: January 13, 2009

I have only one question about Israel's military operation in Gaza: What is the goal? Is it the education of Hamas or the eradication of Hamas? I hope that it's the education of Hamas. Let me explain why.

I was one of the few people who argued back in 2006 that Israel actually won the war in Lebanon started by Hezbollah. You need to study that war and its aftermath to understand Gaza and how it is part of a new strategic ballgame in the Arab-Israel arena, which will demand of the Obama team a new approach.

What Hezbollah did in 2006 — in launching an unprovoked war across the U.N.-recognized Israel-Lebanon border, after Israel had unilaterally withdrawn from Lebanon — was to both upend Israel's longstanding peace strategy and to unveil a new phase in the Hezbollah-Iran war strategy against Israel.

There have always been two camps in Israel when it comes to the logic of peace, notes Gidi Grinstein, president of the Israeli think tank, the Reut Institute: One camp says that all the problems Israel faces from the Palestinians or Lebanese emanate from occupying their territories. "Therefore, the fundamental problem is staying — and the fundamental remedy is leaving," says Grinstein.

The other camp argues that Israel's Arab foes are implacably hostile and leaving would only invite more hostility. Therefore, at least when it comes to the Palestinians, Israel needs to control their territories indefinitely. Since the mid-1990s, the first camp has dominated Israeli thinking. This led to the negotiated and unilateral withdrawals from the West Bank, Lebanon and Gaza.

( more in article- I will have to give them credit for a reasonable viewpoint!)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 02:57 PM

Nickhere,

"It was also planned for months and is not just some sort of knee jerk reaction to a handful of rockets in November. "


1. Any competant military will have plans for likely actions. Even the US has them, for such things as invading Canada...

2. "a handful of rockets in November" ???? How about 6000 rockets and morter shells over two years? Probably about 25 times what Israel is using on Gaza each day (60 sorties/4 bombs max). So Israel should keep it up another 6 days, for parity??????

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 03:13 PM

Oh you little liar T.    I said "hundreds of Ossetians"

And what verification would you accept anyway?...The Russians? The Ossetians?....Even the Georgians and their mad leader have admitted to the attack.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 03:22 PM

From what I hear:

a) Thousands of rockets have been fired into Israel by Hamas
a1) However, these thousands of rockets were mostly home-made and not awfully lethal

b) The Israeli Supreme Court has ruled that journalists should be allowed into Gaza
b1) However, the Government of Israel has refused to allow journalists in

c) A third of all the 1,000+ dead are children

d) Gaza has a population of a million crammed into an area around the size of the Aran Islands

e) There are other methods of making people stop hating you than killing them

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 03:24 PM

The old threads are down, so I can't find Teribus's support for Georgia against Russian "agression".

What a hypocrit!!

The US State dept were finally forced to admit the hostilities were started by Georgia.link

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 03:55 PM

Actually,

D. The population of Gaza is about 1.5 million ( not 1 million)



300 children killed in the entire population of 1.5 million- If Israel is deliberately targeting civilians, they really need a lot more training.

The hoods in DC kill more than that a year, out of half that population.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 08:00 PM

"The bunker busters if supplied would in fact reduce the likely-hood of "civilian" casualties if used against deep bunkers and would definitely be useful in the destruction of the supply tunnels"

Not when they are dropped on houses in densely populated areas, as hsa been going on.

Yes, Gaza is being flatttened.

Not 30o children BB
Now over 1000 killed most civilians, in densly civilian populated areas. Over 5000 now wounded with no way to access medical aid & supplies (againt international law & the Geneva Conventions). !0 daed Israeli soldiers. Who do I feel for. Most are women & children!
Where is your humanity? It's so very sad that a people can turn so utterly vicious & blind towards the sufferings of another when they feel so rightious, as did the Nazi's. Israel will pay in the end, as did Germany. Yes BB, I put Israel on the same gutteral level as Nazi Germany & those that supported Germany's cruel aggression heap upon the Jews back then & is exactlly the same as Israel is now heaping upon the Palestinians

Bring in all the history you want, history does not give any excuses to commit mass murder & ethnic cleansing!

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 08:29 PM

No, Israel isn't trying to kill children. It's just not trying too hard not to kill them.

Much the same as Hamas with their rockets, but on a much much larger scale, not because Hamas is less ruthless or Israel more ruthless, but because that's how the firepower is distributed.

There really isn't too much difference between the two sides when it comes to willingness to cause suffering and death among civilians as a way of achieving political goals. Which is a definition of terrorism. Not because they are particularly wicked, it's a way of thinking grounded on historical circumstances. A self destructive way of thinking.
...............................

The suggestion that the expulsion of Jews from other countries in the Middle East retrospectively justified the forced exile of Arabs from what became Israel is pretty suspect. Turn it around, and it seems to imply that the expulsion of those Jewish populations was justified by what had happened in Israel.

More honest to recognise that both these actions were criminal - another example of how "there really isn't too much difference between the two sides when it comes to willingness to cause suffering and death among civilians as a way of achieving political goals."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 09:26 PM

First of all, BB... You obviuosly are obsessed... Like how come if I post one thing you have to post 3000 posts afterwards??? That is ibsession and you need to seek out mental health...

While y6ou are there ask them why it is you believe everything that the Bush administration **********tells********** you... You are not only obsesses but you are such a cheerleader that you wouldn't know the truth if it bit you on your obsessed ass...

What makes you the authority on what lies the Bush administration tells are woprthy of false belief... You don't have a clue about what weapons the US has or is sharing with Isreal... If you do then...

...prove it!!! If not, quit callin' folks liars....

You are nothing but a "true believer" blowhard...

******Prove****** yer assertions from here out... You ask that of me all the time... I'm askin' nothin' more of you... If you can't then quit with the liar crap and shut the fu*k up!!!

Have a nice day,

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 01:58 AM

Now this post I found quite ludicrous

From what Guest,JTT hears:

"a) Thousands of rockets have been fired into Israel by Hamas
a1) However, these thousands of rockets were mostly home-made and not awfully lethal"

Eh JTT does that observation of yours mean that these rockets are only capable of "slightly" killing a person?? Unguided or controlled, fired indiscriminately at civilian centres of population they are mean to kill Israeli civilians the fact that they have not been terribly successful is not from the want of trying.

b) The Israeli Supreme Court has ruled that journalists should be allowed into Gaza
b1) However, the Government of Israel has refused to allow journalists in

Can you give us any other instances of countries, regimes or armies engaged in military operations who take their direction from their legal systems?? Judging MSM over the past 8 years I wouldn't allow the prats in either.

c) A third of all the 1,000+ dead are children

And who deliberately put them in harms way Guest,JTT?? Who was it ended the "cease-fire"??

d) Gaza has a population of a million crammed into an area around the size of the Aran Islands

1.5 million as has been pointed out

e) There are other methods of making people stop hating you than killing them

While they are doing their best to kill you?? And have declared openly that they will never recognise your right to live a peaceful life?? It is Hamas that has to change politically before any negotiations that would lead to peace can take place.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 03:50 AM

To Teribus
I don't think the path to peace in the region will be attained by the unleashing of a river of blood and gore.The atrocities committed by the Israeli military are going to be remembered.

Secondly how will there be peace when a one state solution with all inhabitants having full democratic rights is rejected out of hand by the Israelis who see it as an end to the Zionist project?

But the Israelis have also made a two state solution unworkable because Israel has created facts on the ground in the West Bank by allowing/encouraging the settlement of around 500000 settlers ,many organised like armed paramilitaries in the occupied territories.

The land grab by the State and the settlers has been going on for years and is still going on...accompanied by shootings,arrests,demolition of houses,road blocks,lockdowns, beatings, the stealing of water supplies,grubbing up of orchards,and the building of the giant Apartheid Wall across Palestinian land.

This is no basis for any kind of solution that is acceptable.I don't think the Palestinians will accept living in a series of shrinking bantustans being ruled by their gun totin' Israeli masters and surrounded on all sides by Israeli territory . And those who are not locked into these bantustans will be imprisoned and humiliated in broken,poverty stricken Gaza, another giant prison.

I think the above is the prospect for Palestinians and the seeds for further conflict and carnage with Israel. And it is the Israeli criminal government which is responsible for the ongoing conflict.It keeps trying to bomb the Palestinians and for that matter the Lebanese into submission but it is getting harder and harder to win a military victory...and the sight of those dead and mutilated children murdered and maimed in their hundreds and thousands is long going to fuel world wide revulsion .
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,guest Hugo
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 04:07 AM

Even The Dead Are Not Safe In Gaza

Israeli bombing has destroyed the large Sheik Radwan cemetery in Gaza destroying graves and exposing the corpses of those killed during the invasion of Gaza.

Even the dead cannot be at peace from the missiles and bombs fired with impunity .
Hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 05:38 AM

Barry


"Most are women & children!"

Figures I have seen quoted from the Palestinian sources have been less than half.

Hardly most.


"on houses in densely populated areas"

Houses being used to hide the tunnels that Hamas used to smuggle in those rockets, and arms, instead of the food and medicine their civilian population supposedly is dieing for the lack of.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 05:45 AM

Bobert,

Let me 'splain something to you.

We don't have nuclear bunker busters.

Israel (probably ) has more than enough nuclear weapons to use them, if they wamnted to- the continued existance of Gaza seems to indicate they have no diesire to use them.

I explained how bunker busters are NOT nuclear, and you keep repeating the lie that they are.

I look for facts, which obviously is beyond your comprehension


" ******Prove****** yer assertions from here out... You ask that of me all the time... I'm askin' nothin' more of you."

You have NEVER given facts to support your statements- As opinions, you are entitled to them, but when you insist on declaring them "Bobert facts" and demand that we all accept them, it would be nice if they were at least physically possible.

You seem to be acting more and more like you claim Bush is, every day.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 05:52 AM

BTW, Bobert,

You are asking me to prove that the US has nOT given Israel "nuclear bunker busters"

I have shown they do not exist, but aren't you asking me to prove a negative, which YOU declared was what the UN did with UNR1441 about Iraq?

You are now saying that the Iraq war was justified, because Saddam could not prove he had not gotten WMD???????

Or is it just Jews that you make unreasonable evaluations about????

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 05:56 AM

30,000 dead civilian Kurds- We can't have Saddam actually comply with the ceasefire terms.


1,000 dead Gazans, half of whom are civilians- Israel does not have the right to exist.




Bobert, you make me sick.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 06:10 AM

The US has already reported that Israel has Bunker Busters but their request for more has been denied. (See any recent news caption)

Most of tghe dead are women & children (see any & all recent news coverage, from anywhere)



"on houses in densely populated areas"
BB
"Houses being used to hide the tunnels that Hamas used to smuggle in those rockets, and arms, instead of the food and medicine their civilian population supposedly is dieing for the lack of."

So the idea is to bomb & level every house in Gaza
They're doing a good job of it!

They (the civilians) can't house what they don't have = food & medical supplies (against the Geneva Conventions & International Law)

So is every person living in Gaza a terrorist? That would mean the Israeli's are justified in killing every man, woman & child in Gaza?
Because that's what they're doing & it doesn't seem as if they'll stop untill they suceed

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 06:53 AM

Barry,


You state:
"Most of tghe dead are women & children (see any & all recent news coverage, from anywhere)"

I find this:
"Appalled that fighting was still continuing in Gaza despite a Security Council's ceasefire resolution, senior United Nations officials said today they were horrified at the human costs amid reports that over 40 per cent of the nearly 900 Palestinians killed in the Israeli offensive, and almost half of the 3,860 wounded, were women and children. "

http://english.pravda.ru/world/asia/14-01-2009/106947-gazaunhospitals-0


Do you have anything more recent?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 07:55 AM

We don't have nuclear bunker busters??? How do you ****know**** that, BB??? There was some discussion back in '03 about building them... So, unless you have national security clearance and the defense contrator who is supplying the DoD with bunker buster bombs you don't know any more than what the governemnt wants you to know... Which is generally propaganda...

And if you are that DoD contrator with security clearance then I'm sure the DoD would be interested in why you have parked yourself here in Mudville pontificating about weaponry...

Like I said, prove that those requests back in '03 didn't produce a new and improved bunker buster...

But beyond that, do you think that Israel should have bunker busters???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 07:58 AM

Barry,

It is known that Israel has bunker busters, but it is Bobert's claim that bunker busters are nuclear that is in dispute.

Still looking for any reports that the majority ( ie, more than 50%) of the Gazan casualties are women and children.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 08:44 AM

Now that they are training their guns on the UN the casualty count of women, at least, will probably go up.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 09:03 AM

Maybe a hyphen could make things clearer.

Nuclear-bunker busters. For busting bunkers that aspire to provide some protection against nuclear weapons.
..................................................

Only 40% women and children among those killed and less than half of those wounded. That makes all the difference then.

The truth is no one can possibly have accurate figures in a situation like this. They are estimates. There are undoubtedly dead bodies lying in bombed buildings that no one has counted yet, and wounded as well.

The majority of people in Gaza are women and children, that at any rate is beyond question. Since by no means all the men killed will in any sense have been combatants, it seems pretty evident that most of those killed and injured will have been civilians - after all that is the normal pattern in modern wars. It has definitely been the case in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 09:14 AM

"Most of tghe dead are women & children (see any & all recent news coverage, from anywhere)"


"Some 1,100 Palestinians have been killed, roughly half of them civilians, according to U.N. and Palestinian medical officials."

By IBRAHIM BARZAK and AMY TEIBEL, Associated Press Writers Ibrahim Barzak And Amy Teibel, Associated Press Writers – 6 mins ago



Roughly half civilians is now mostly women and children???

Israel should be destroyed unless I prove a negative, but it was wrong to ask Iraq to prove what it had done with it's WMD programs ( previously observed by the UN)?


OK, tell me why I should consider this reasonable?????

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 09:26 AM

"Israel should be destroyed unless I prove a negative."

I don't think anyone actually said that, did they bruce? Or linked those two things.

If anything stopping the killing in Gaza is about saving Israel.
....................

Roughly half means "either a bit more than half or a bit less than half - we don't actually know". And seriously, how does it make any difference which of those statistics is the case?

When it turned out that "only" 3000 people were killed when the Twin Towers came down, rather than earlier estimates of 10,000, did that alter the horror of what had been done? If it turned out that "only" say fiver million Jews were killed in the Holocaust rather than six million, would that change anything?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 09:28 AM

Most of tghe dead are women & children (see any & all recent news coverage, from anywhere)

***

So is every person living in Gaza a terrorist? That would mean the Israeli's are justified in killing every man, woman & child in Gaza?
Because that's what they're doing & it doesn't seem as if they'll stop untill they suceed

***

I think that every lost innocent life is a tragedy. I believe that the only solution to the Middle East quagmire is the two-state solution that Hamas rejects.

But I also know that the Hamas terrorists hide behind the civilian population.

Hamas' own estimates are that a third of the Palestinian dead are innocent civilian. That amounts to 2/100ths of 1% of the Palestinians in Gaza.

If Israel's intent was to live up to Barry Finn's statements above, they're not doing a very good job.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 09:33 AM

Reports are being broadcast that the United Nations HQ in Gaza has been and partially destroyed hit by Israeli phopherous shells .
Some 700 Palestinians who had fled from their homes were sheltering in the UN facility when it was attacked.Casualties have been reported.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 09:35 AM

roughly half of them civilians, according to U.N. and Palestinian medical officials."

Another source of confusion here is that police are counted as civillians.
IDF regards and targets them as being part of Hamas military

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 09:41 AM

"Bobert - PM
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 06:49 PM

Ya' know, Ake, if you asked me a month ago if I thought that Israel had a "right to exist" I'd have said, "Sure"...

With every passing day I am less and less "sure" that Israel has a right to exist...

I mean, the Bush adminstartion's own refusal to give Israel more bunker buster bombs, which BTW I believe are nuclear, really turned my thinking...
....
Sorry, but I no longer believe that this Israel has earned the right to exist..."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,hugo
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 09:41 AM

According to the Israeli newspaper Haaretz the Al Quds hospital in Gaza is engulfed in flames after being attacked by Israeli military forces.
hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 09:52 AM

I see Barak has apologised for shelling the main UN compound in Gaza, where 700 Palestinians had been sheltering. He has described it as a "grave mistake".

Well, I suppose that is better than the reflex of making out it was a justified attack on Hamas who were using the refugees as a human shield...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 10:39 AM

Actually...


"Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said the military fired artillery shells at the U.N. compound after Hamas militants opened fire from the location. Three people were wounded.

"It is absolutely true that we were attacked from that place, but the consequences are very sad and we apologize for it," he said. "I don't think it should have happened and I'm very sorry."

A senior Israeli military officer had also said Israeli troops shelled the compound after coming under fire from Palestinian militants there — an account dismissed by a U.N. official there at the time as "nonsense.""

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 10:57 AM

So, who do you believe?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 11:10 AM

He believes whoever says what he wants to hear. ;-) And that would be the Israeli government, naturally.

All people do that. They believe whoever says what they want to hear.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 11:46 AM

Medical Aid For Palestinians, a relief charity working in Gaza, has issued a press release the main points of which are as follows:

Al Wafa and Al Wia'm hospitals in Gaza have both been attacked by the Israeli military dropping bombs.

Al quds and the European hospital have also been attacked with phospherous .

13 medical staff have been killed and 22 injured since the invasion started 20 days ago.
15 ambulances have been destroyed and 7 damaged

12 health centre have been attacked and damaged including one funded by european churches.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 12:01 PM

BOBERT FACT - US has nuclear bunker busting bombs

ACTUAL FACT :

"US drops nuclear "bunker buster" from budget"
Date 27 October 2005 by Shaoni Bhattacharya


Controversial plans to research nuclear "bunker busters" have been abandoned by the by the US in the country's 2006's budget.

The Bush administration and the Senate have agreed with the House of Representatives to scrap the funding for the Robust Nuclear Earth Penetrator (RNEP) in the 2006 Energy and Water Development Appropriations Bill.

The Pentagon will instead focus on developing a conventional deep-earth penetrating bomb, said Senator Pete Domenici, chair of the Senate subcommittee dealing with the issue.

He said the National Nuclear Security Administration had requested such a switch. "The focus will now be with the Defense Department and its research into earth-penetrating technology using conventional weaponry. The NNSA indicated that this research should evolve around more conventional weapons rather than tactical nuclear devices," he said in a statement."

Some More ACTUAL FACT:

During the "Cold War" the Soviet Union and the United States were creating bunkers buried under huge volumes of soil or reinforced concrete in order to withstand the multi-megaton thermonuclear weapons developed in the 1950s and 1960s. Bunker penetration weapons were initially designed out of this Cold War context.

The weapon was revisited in the post-Cold War for use in Afghanistan in 2001, and again during the 2003 invasion of Iraq. During the campaign in Tora Bora in particular, the United States believed that "vast underground complexes," deeply buried, were protecting opposing forces. Such complexes were not found. While a nuclear penetrator (the "Robust Nuclear Earth Penetrator", or "RNEP") was never built, the DOE was allotted budget to develop it, and tests were conducted by the Air Force Research Laboratory.

As well, it has been stated that Iran may have such deeply buried bunkers to guard its nuclear program.

The Bush administration removed its request for funding of the weapon in October 2005. Additionally, US Senator Pete Domenici announced funding for the nuclear bunker-buster has been dropped from the Department of Energy's fiscal 2006 budget at the department's request, strongly indicating that the project for the development of the RNEP seems to be in fact canceled.

Now I am willing to place a bet that Bobert will continue to witter on about the evils of this US weapon that does not exist.

To Guest ifor:
"I don't think the path to peace in the region will be attained by the unleashing of a river of blood and gore. The atrocities committed by the Israeli military are going to be remembered."

Irrespective of whether they have committed them or not as has proven to be the case in the past Guest ifor

"Secondly how will there be peace when a one state solution with all inhabitants having full democratic rights is rejected out of hand by the Israelis who see it as an end to the Zionist project?"

What Zionist project is that Guest ifor?? That second point of yours doesn't really reflect the history of the area does it?? I think that after unprovoked attack, after unprovoked attack, by Palestinian Arabs on Palestinian Jews between 1920 and 1937 (Peel Commission) it suddenly dawned on the British that there was never going to be a one state solution because the Palestinian Arabs simply refused point blank to live in a single state and peacefully co-exist with their Jewish neighbours, many of whom Guest ifor had been there for hundreds of years. Towards the end of the British Mandate period the United Nations came to exactly the same conclusion and proposed a two state solution that the Israelis accepted and the Arabs rejected. So tell me Guest ifor, if what you say is true please tell me exactly when it was that the Israelis rejected a single state solution. I take it that you can do that, or is this just another "Marxist Myth".

"But the Israelis have also made a two state solution unworkable because Israel has created facts on the ground in the West Bank by allowing/encouraging the settlement of around 500000 settlers ,many organised like armed paramilitaries in the occupied territories."

Tell me Guest ifor, there were "Israeli Settlers" in Gaza prior to the hand-over to the Palestinians in 2005. Those settlers had been there for years. The Israeli Government stated that as part of the hand-over the settlers would be removed. Where are those settlers now Guest ifor?? Are they still in Gaza? Or did Israel keep its word?? What was the Palestinian part of the deal Guest ifor?? It had something to do with a cessation of indiscriminate rocket and mortar attacks on Israeli civilians from inside Gaza didn't it?? Tell me Guest ifor, did the Palestinians keep their word?? Now according to their track record Guest ifor, if Israel states that it will return the West Bank to the Palestinians in order that a two-state solution can be implemented and that all settlers will be removed. Then oddly enough Guest ifor based upon their track record in similar circumstances I believe that the Israelis would do precisely what they said they would do.

"The land grab by the State and the settlers has been going on for years and is still going on...accompanied by shootings,arrests,demolition of houses,road blocks,lockdowns, beatings, the stealing of water supplies,grubbing up of orchards,and the building of the giant Apartheid Wall across Palestinian land."

I do love it when lefties get all emotional, you can almost see them frothing up – no mention there of the attacks on the Israeli population Guest ifor. The dangerous thing is that, according to your perspective and that of many others on this forum in relation to this conflict, no matter what Israel can do no right and expect to live and the more that that is pushed and promulgated the starker the choice becomes. If the Israelis are to be accused of doing something that they at present most certainly are not then why not say "to hell with it, if we're being accused of it lets actually do it, wipe them out. We may be hated but we will be safe". Because neither, Egypt, Jordan, Syria or Lebanon is going to go to war with Israel over the Palestinians who have repeatedly rejected ever peace offer ever made. Sad fact is Guest ifor, that none of those countries, or those "heroic freedom fighters" of Hamas, et al, give a tupenny-hapenny damn about "The Palestinians" – They never have, not for one second.

"…it is the Israeli criminal government which is responsible for the ongoing conflict."

Please correct me if I am wrong here Guest ifor but it was Hamas that is down on record as the party that ended the "cease-fire" and it was Israel that was down on record as wanting it to continue.

The responsibility for the safety of the Palestinians within Gaza rests solely with their elected "Government" and that, unfortunately for the "Palestinians", is Hamas. It is up to Hamas to protect its citizens and act in their best interests to secure their safety, in exactly the same way it is the responsibility of the elected Government of Israel to safeguard and protect its citizens. The Israeli military intervention in Gaza was brought about by attacks on Israeli centres of population by Hamas and other terrorist groups operating within Gaza with the consent of Hamas. World wide revulsion is not worth the life of a single child – Now Guest ifor tell that to Hamas.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 12:13 PM

To Teribus
You are wrong to say that it was Hamas that ended the ceasefire.

The ceasefire held up remarkably well but was doomed once Israel continued to tighten the noose around Gaza by totally controlling and throttling Gaza's land ,sea and air borders.

During the 18 months of the blockade hundreds of Gazan hospital patients in desperate need of medical treatment were denied exit from the strip and over a hundred died as a direct result.

The last straw for the Palestinians was the killing of six Hamas men inside Gaza which effectively was the start of the renewed conflict.

I am not making this up it is what is widely claimed by many outside the ranks of Israel's apologists for the slaughter that is taking place in Gaza.

All credit to those inside Israel,both Israeli and Palestinian, who have called for an end to the slaughter and have a wider perspective than the tunnel vision of those who are directing and murdering in the city.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Hugo
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 12:34 PM

Iraeli rocket fire damaged a media centre in a high rise Gaza building today.Two Abu Dhabi journalists were injured by shrapnel and two floors below the Reuters office had to be evacuated after it was damaged in the attack by an Israeli warplane.
hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 01:33 PM

Of course attacking TV stations and suchlike and killing journalists is now standard enough practice - it's happened in Iraq, and Afghanistan and of course there was the time Tony Blair bombed a TV station in Belgrade and killed 16 technicians and journalists.

Here's a site monitoring these kinds of attacks on media workers - International News Safety Institute - INSI More than 100 journalists and other media workers were killed in 2008. There's a running score chart on that site - so far the toll for 2009 is six.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 01:33 PM

Percentages are great things, aren't they? Only 0.02% or whatever of Gaza's long-suffering citizens have been blown to bits by Israeli bombs etc., Well it sounds better than over 1,000 people and 5,000 wounded anyway, I suppose. And you can do some more algebra and math until all those dead people don't look like very much really. Like Stalin is reputed to have said "the death of a million men is a statistic"

I wonder how long before someone says Jesus was betrayed by only 13.2% of his apostles?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 01:35 PM

Come to think of it, those percentages are starting to remind me of Jonathon Swift's 'Modest Proposal" (Google it)

0.02% - that's all? The Gazans can easily afford that, it's not such a lot really, what with all them Arab wimmin having loads of babies and everything.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 01:51 PM

3,000 dead on September 11 out of 300,000,000 in America.   That's 0.0001 isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 01:55 PM

Nickhere,

Too bad you didn't actually read my post instead of just reacting to it. I said that every innocent persons death is a tragedy.

The miniscule percentage was quoted in response to a particular Mudcatter's preposterous claim that Israel was killing "every man, woman and child in Gaza."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: DougR
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 02:02 PM

Barry: "What will the Israelis give up?"

The Israelis will stop the bombing and retreat back to Israel. The war will be over.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 02:35 PM

3,000 dead on September 11 out of 300,000,000 in America.   That's 0.0001 isn't it?

Yes, so a claim that the Islamic terrorists who perpetrated 9/11 were killing every man, woman and child in America would be just as big a lie as the preposterous lie that Israel was killing "every man, woman and child in Gaza."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 03:02 PM

But that wouldn't have stopped it being murder on an enotmpous scale. In either case.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 04:07 PM

C.Ham you weren't the only one mentioning it

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 05:11 PM

Seems almost a shame to have David Milliband saying something intelligent.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Davey
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 05:22 PM

Of the 18 hijackers of the 9/11 atrocity none were Palestinian.I think 14 were Saudi Arabian and none were Iraqi .
Stange to say the USA did not bomb or invade Saudi Arabia ,instead it allowed the Saudi royal princes and assorted hangers on to leave the country within days of the attack on New York.
Davey

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 05:32 PM

First of all, there is no obne here who can offer any proof, one way or another, if the bunker buster bombs that are being preduced today are nuclear or not... All you folks can is report what them lieing ass governemtn has put into yer little doughboy heads... Big whup... A friggin' monkey can be taught to pull the right lever to get food so all you weapons experts give yerselve a peanut for parroting the company fight song...

But, really... Who cares???

The real issue here is that Israel has shown repeeatedly that it does not play well with its neighbors... It has a long history of not playing nice with its neighbors so, hey, in the words of Doctor Phil...

..."How's that workin' for ya, Bubba???"

Well, it ain't and that's why I have finally figured out that Israel just might not ahve a ***right*** to exist... Rights are earned, not stolen...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 05:57 PM

Not very good at answering questions is Guest ifor.

"You are wrong to say that it was Hamas that ended the ceasefire.

The ceasefire held up remarkably well but was doomed once Israel continued to tighten the noose around Gaza by totally controlling and throttling Gaza's land ,sea and air borders."

Let's see then shall we Guest ifor:

Between 2002 and November 2008, 3943 Mortar Bombs were fired into Israel plus 3702 Rockets.

Now during this cease-fire that Guest ifor stated was holding up remarkably well from 19th June to 31st December 505 Rockets plus 327 Mortar Bombs were fired into Israel from the Gaza Strip. Now can you explain exactly why those did not get a mention in your post Guest ifor??

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: DougR
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 06:18 PM

Probably, Teribus, (no pun intended) it's an "Unconvenient truth."

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: DougR
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 06:20 PM

Oops. Should have read: Because, Teribus, (no pun intended) it's "An Inconvenient Truth."

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 07:04 PM

Reply to Teribus

It must be uncomfortable and deeply shameful to be openly supporting the murderous state of Israel and its Zionist zealots at a time when the whole world is seeing Palestinian babies,children and adolescents being butchered and dismembered by that range of US supplied weapons ranging from those monster bombs to rockets and from phospherous weapons to tank shells.

The Israeli military is even blowing up corpses in the cemetery in Gaza..truly a literal case of overkill!.How appropriate for the anti Zionist and pro peace Jewish Rabbi in New York yesterday to burn his Israeli passport in protest at the mass killing of Gazan civilians.

And, as has been pointed out to the handful of frankly unsavoury Zionist apologists on Mudcat on numerous occasions, this pattern of slaughter and massacre of Palestinians by the Israeli military is nothing new.It started in 1948 and there have been genocidal outbursts at intervals since then.

A quick glance at just about any unbiased book on the conflict will uncover details of the mass murders and destruction unleashed by Israel either in Lebanon,in Gaza or on the West Bank.

A full account of the Israeli breaking of the ceasefire in Gaza can be found by referring to google and typing in"Gaza and the breakdown of the ceasefire".

It is clear that Gaza has been throttled by Israel which refused to abide by the agreement to ease the blockade.In addition it attacked Gaza killing Palestinians .It broke the ceasefire.

Why? After the bloody nose it received in Lebanon two years ago Israel was very eager to show it had the firepower to devastate its opponents and is more than ready to kill thousands of innocent civilians in order to demonstrate its military superiority. It has done it in the past and is doing so again in Gaza.

It has only been able to do this with the consent ,quiet or otherwise, of Bush and Co in America. This is Bush's parting gift to the Middle East.. a broken city and broken children. Cheers George!

But his accomplices in this terror are those Israeli warleaders who in order to win an election are prepared to blow thousands of refugees to smithereens.

And let us remember that Israel is occupying Palestinian land in Gaza and in Jerusalem and on the West Bank in defiance of international law.

Its repeated attacks on United Nations workers and facilities shows the contempt Israel has for the UN. It is truely a murderous pariah state and its actions in the slaughterhouse that is Gaza are going to have repercussions for a very long time.

In the face of these US made bombs,tanks,warships,F16s apache gunships and phospherous shells the Palestinians have one underrated weapon...justice.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 07:26 PM

That's fairly true LH, as Dylan sang "a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest"

But there's no doubt lots of people are dying there. What can be done to stop it? I don't believe that the military iron fist will do it in the long term. There must be a better way.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 07:43 PM

Yeah, ifor... You got the situation pegged... The only folks who support this insanity are folks with a dog in the race... No one else is suppotrtive...

This is beyond disgusting and repulsive... This is genocide... Israel is no better than Robert Mogambe...

I thinks it is time to pull the plug on this little failed experiement... Israel was proven it cannot co-exist with it's neigbors... It had one last chance when Hamas was elected in Gaza to show that it could swallow it's pride and show grace... Instead all we got was Israel trying to starve out the Palestianians in Gaza...

There was a reason that Hamas came into power... That reason is Israel...

No, given Israel's thumbing at UN resolutions and thumbing of international law, it's time for ther sane world to tell Israel to either fix itself or get the heck outta a region that it cannnot exist in...

There are really no other choices unless the Zionists can use a 60 year old rationale to convince the rest of the world that just nukin' the West Bank and Gaza is the right thing to do... Yeah, kind flies in the face considering what the Nazi's did but, hey, seems that this is about the only thing that will make Israel happy... But that happiness won't last... Lebenon will nikes next... Then Iran... Then Syria... Then, then...

Time for Jews to stand up agsinst insanity...

Time for non-Jews to quit cow-tieing to 60 years of guilt driven crap by the Zionists and stand up against insanity...

Time for a change...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: pdq
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 07:44 PM

"Dylan sang 'a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest' "

Actually, those are (roughly) the lyrics from a Paul Simon song.

Nickhere, you seem to have the wrong Jew.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 09:30 PM

Right! So Israel really is moving in after all.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: bobad
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 09:38 PM

Just temporarily.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 09:40 PM

Here you are Teribus.

Some Facts clearly and thouroughly displayed and examined resulting in a well supported view that Israel broke the ceasefire.

As opposed to your opinion that Hamas did.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 11:47 PM

And the rockets were, uh, well--for years.

I think Israel's response is a bit much, but NONE of you were bitching when Israel was getting hit by three rockets a day for over five years. Tell me, why IS that?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 01:51 AM

500 Up

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 03:03 AM

I don't think there is anyone posting on the Mudcat who thinks that firing those rockets into Israel was a good idea or the right thing to do.

On the other hand there clearly are some who think that actions by Israel, which at all times, including during the period of the truce, have killed far more Palestinians, have been and are the right thing to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 03:13 AM

Guest Lox, Guest ifor, can you please cut and paste where I have said that Hamas "broke" the six-month old cease-fire agreement? I think that you will find that I said that they "ended it".

Guest lox you seem to be "cherry-picking" with regard to the events of 4th November, as to the launching of 35 rockets in response to an Israeli strike that killed 6 Hamas militants. This you and those who wrote the article you linked to attempt to set this as some sort of start point in the break down of the Egyptian brokered cease-fire that came into effect on 17th June 2008 – If that is so can you come up with explanations for the following:

June 18, 2008 - More than 40 rockets and mortar shells were launched from Gaza in a violent finale towards Sderot. Several hit the town, causing some damage.

June 19, 2008 - Through Egyptian mediation Israel and Hamas agreed to a six month cease-fire on June 17th that went into effect on June 19, 2008 at 6:00 AM.

June 20, 2008 - Gilad Herman, an Israeli settler in the West Bank settlement of Yashif, unintentionally fires upon an Israeli when he launches a home-made rocket towards Palestinian West Bank. The rocket lands "meters away from a Breslov hassid who was praying in the area." No one is hurt.

June 23, 2008 - A single mortar shell was also fired from Gaza late Monday night and landed on the Israeli side of the border fence. No organization claimed responsibility for the attack.

June 24, 2008 - Three Qassam rockets fired from Gaza on Tuesday struck the Israeli border town of Sderot and its environs, causing no serious injuries but constituting the first serious breach of a five-day-old truce between Israel and Hamas. Islamic Jihad rocket exploding in the distance, breaking the 5-day truce, Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack and said it had been a response to an Israeli military raid in the West Bank city of Nablus at dawn on Tuesday, in which a senior Islamic Jihad operative Tareq Abu Ghali, 24 and another Palestinian university student Iyad Khanfar, 21 were killed. An Israeli Army spokesman said that Abu Ghali had been involved in terrorism and that he was "killed in an exchange of fire." The man killed with him was armed, the spokesman said. The rocket attack occurred hours after Olmert met President Hosni Mubarak of Egypt in the Red Sea resort of Sharm el Sheik to discuss the next steps in the tenuous Egyptian-mediated truce and the renewal of efforts to resolve the case of Gilad Shalit, an Israeli corporal held by Hamas in Gaza since June 25, 2006. Israeli Defense Ministry decided that Israel would keep the Gaza border crossings closed Thursday, except for special humanitarian cases, in response to Tuesday's Qassam rocket attacks.

June 26, 2008 - A rocket hit an open area of the industrial zone outside Sderot. There were no reports of injuries or damage, according to army sources. The Fatah-affiliated Aksa Martyrs Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack. In a text message sent to reporters, it said "the truce must include the West Bank and all sorts of aggression must stop."

On Thursday morning, Hamas accused Israel of violating the terms of the Gaza cease-fire a day after Israeli Defense Ministry decided that Israel would keep the Gaza border crossings closed Thursday, except for special humanitarian cases, in response to Tuesday's Qassam rocket attacks - "If the crossings remain closed, the truce will collapse", Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri said Thursday morning.

June 27, 2008 - Early on Friday, two mortar shells were fired at Israel from the northern Gaza Strip. One landed near Kibbutz Kfar Aza in the Sha'ar Hanegev Regional Council, and the second one hit an open area. There were no reports of injuries or damage in the latest violation of the fragile ceasefire.

Following yesterday's rocket attack by Aksa Martyrs Brigade a spokesman for the Hamas government, Taher al-Nunu, called Fatah's actions "unpatriotic". He said Hamas was considering the possibility of taking action against those perpetrating the attacks against Israel.

Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh called Friday on Palestinian factions to adhere to the Gaza Strip lull agreement with Israel. "The factions and the people accepted the lull in order to secure two interests – an end to aggression and the lifting of the siege. Therefore, we hope that everyone honors this national agreement", he said following Friday prayers.

June 28, 2008 - Mortar shells were fired at the Karni crossing. No one claims responsibility for the attacks. Israel blocks all shipments into Gaza except fuel, in response to the rocket and mortar attacks.

June 30, 2008 - A rocket falls near the town of Mefalsim. Nobody claims responsibility for the attack. In response Israel once again closes the crossings that had previously been reopened on June 29, 2008.

July 2, 2008 - There were no rocket or mortar attacks so Israel reopens the four Gaza crossings on Wednesday July 2. Since a truce began June 19, Israel has closed the passages a total of six days in retaliation for rocket attacks.

July 3, 2008 - A rocket lands in an open area north of Sderot. A previously unknown organization calling itself the "Badr Forces" claims responsibility for the attack. In response Israel temporarily closes the crossings on July 4, 2008.

July 7, 2008 - A mortar shell is fired at Israel from Gaza on Monday and lands near the Karni crossing.

July 8, 2008 - After two mortar attacks from Gaza at the Sufa crossing, one fell just inside Gaza and the other at the crossing. Israel closed all the crossing. After an Egyptian request they reopened the crossings. Hours after the crossings opened at noon, militants fired another shell into Israel, causing no casualties or damage, the Israeli military said. Israel kept the crossings open. No Palestinian group immediately claimed responsibility.

In all, 15 rockets and mortars have been fired from Gaza since the truce took effect on June 19. Israel has responded automatically by snapping shut the crossings, which have been closed about half of the time. So far the truce has not eased conditions in Gaza because of the frequent closures.

July 10, 2008 - Two Qassam rockets were fired at Israel, but caused no damage, after an unarmed Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades infiltrator was killed at the Kissufim crossing. An Israeli Army spokesman said they fired warning shots and when the man did not stop they killed him. The Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades vowed revenge and claimed responsibility for the rocket attack.

In the West Bank city of Nablus, Israeli troops continued for a fourth straight day a crackdown on institutions it links to the militant Hamas movement. On Wednesday July 10 they shot dead a Hamas member near the West Bank city of Jenin.

July 12, 2008 - A rocket lands in an open area in Sha'ar Hanegev regional council. Nobody claims responsibility for the attack.

July 13, 2008 - Two mortar shells are misfired and they land on the Gaza side of the border security fence in the Nahal Oz region. Nobody claims responsibility for the attack. Israel responds by only closing the Nahal Oz and Sufa crossings.

July 15, 2008 - A mortar hit is identified.

July 25, 2008 - A rocket misfires and lands in Gaza near the Kissufim crossing.

July 29, 2008 - Another rocket is launched from Gaza and mistakenly lands in Gaza.

July 31, 2008 - Again, a rocket misfires and lands in Gaza.

August 1-31st - In the month of August 7 rockets and 12 mortars were fired from Gaza into Israel.

September 1-30th - The month of September represented a considerable lull in the number of rocket and mortar attacks. In this month, 3 rockets and 2 mortars were fired from Gaza into Israel. They caused no injuries or deaths.

October 11th - A single rocket was launched from Gaza into Israel resulting in no injuries or deaths.

November- The Israel Security Agency reports a sharp increase in the number of high trajectory weapon attacks, including towards Ashkelon. According to the Israel Security Agency, "this was preceded by an ISA-IDF operation on the evening between November 4th and 5th". Between October 29th and November 6th 48 rockets and 21 mortars were fired from Gaza into Israel. The first of these were fired after the Israeli operation on the Gaza side of the border on the 4th of November to prevent an abduction for which Hamas had dug a tunnel, according to Israeli sources. During this operation, 7 Hamas militia were killed inside Gaza.

Now then can either lox or ifor tell me what the tunnel, dug by Hamas militants during the cease-fire, was for? Or does that issue have to be studiously, but conveniently ignored??

The Israeli Government has concluded two "Land-for-Peace" deals with two neighbouring Arab Governments, Jordan and Egypt, both have stood the test of time and are still in place today. The Israeli Government unilaterally initiated what was in effect a "land-for-peace" deal with the Palestinians when they pulled out of Gaza – it has got them nowhere. Attacks from inside Gaza continued as before.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 03:14 AM

Well, Kevin, I ain't one of 'em. That aside, my question still hasn't been answered.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 04:10 AM

To Teribus
Which part of the phrase "war crimes" don't you understand?
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 04:21 AM

My implication was that neither critics of Israel's actions nor supporters of those actions have done too much posting about those rockets, because there is no one here who needs to be convinced they are a good idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 05:03 AM

Still asking questions but refusing to answer any put to you Guest ifor:

1.        What Zionist project would a one state solution signal the end of Guest ifor??

2.        Tell me exactly when it was that the Israelis rejected a single state solution??

3.        The Israeli Government stated that as part of the hand-over the settlers would be removed. Where are those settlers now Guest ifor?? Are they still in Gaza? Or did Israel keep its word??

4.        Hamas chose to end the "cease-fire" brokered by Egypt in June 2008, Israel wanted it to continue – TRUE or FALSE ??

5.        The responsibility for the safety of the Palestinians within Gaza rests solely with their elected "Government" and that is Hamas. It is up to Hamas to protect its citizens and act in their best interests to secure their safety, in exactly the same way it is the responsibility of the elected Government of Israel to safeguard and protect Israeli citizens – TRUE or FALSE??

6.        Between 2002 and November 2008, 3943 Mortar Bombs and 3702 Rockets have been fired into Israel from Gaza. During the last cease-fire, from the 19th June to 31st December, 505 Rockets plus 327 Mortar Bombs were fired into Israel from the Gaza Strip. Now can you explain exactly why you have never mentioned those attacks, which are indiscriminately targeted at Israeli civilians in any of your posts Guest ifor??

7.        Corporal Gilad Shalit was kidnapped on July 25 by a Palestinian militant group that included members of the military wing of Hamas. The militants tunnelled inside Israeli territory and captured the soldier after a firefight that left two people dead on each side. What was the tunnel being worked on by the Hamas militants on 4th November 2008 for Guest ifor?? Why were Hamas militants digging a tunnel from Gaza into Israel during a "cease-fire" Guest ifor ??

8.        Since the end of Israeli operations in South Lebanon in 2006 Guest ifor, can you tell me how many attacks have been launched on Israel by Hezbollah from inside Lebanon??

9.        The UN partition plan of 1947, which basically details a two state solution that the "Palestinians" are supposedly fighting for now, was accepted by the Israelis and rejected by the Arabs – TRUE or FALSE??

Now to answer your question Guest ifor:

"Teribus. Which part of the phrase "war crimes" don't you understand?"

•        For a start "war crimes" is a term not a phrase
•        If the subject of war crimes is to be raised it applies in equal measure to both sides

In responding to attacks upon its civilian population I believe that the Israeli Government and the IDF have acted in a measured and proportionate manner.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 07:02 AM

If the subject of war crimes is to be raised it applies in equal measure to both sides

I don't think too many people among critics of Israel's actions would disagree with that. Both sides have been guilty of war crimes and should be held accountable.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 09:04 AM

'Jabaliya' by Ron Bankley

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 10:46 AM

Very timely, Lizzie!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,hugo
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 11:10 AM

Two Palestinian children [brother and sister ] aged 5 and 7 were killed by Israeli shellfire as they sheltered along with 700 other refugees from the shelling in a United Nations school in Gaza.
Hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 11:18 AM

The Israeli Haaretz newspaper reported today that a Palestinian doctor in Gaza, who was trained in Israel lost, three of his children when an Israeli shell destroyed his family home killing his 22 year , 18 year old and 14 year old daughters as well as a 14 year old niece.Two other of his children were injured in the attack.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 12:40 PM

A timely article by Simon Jenkins from yesterday's Guardian Indiscriminate slaughter from the air is a barbarism that must be abolished

...The tragedy in Gaza surely marks the time when the world declares air-launched bombs and long-distance shells to be illegal under the 1983 Geneva convention. They should be on a par with chemical munitions, white phosphorous, cluster bombs and delayed-action land mines. They pose a threat to non-combatants that should be intolerable even in the miserable context of war...

I am puzzled by the fact that there can be people who recognise the criminality of Hamas use of its rockets, but don't see the far more lethal Israeli use of their air-launched bombs and shells as equally criminal.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 01:07 PM

And Kevin, I am equally puzzled by the fact that there can be people who cannot recognise the simple fact that if Hamas, etc, ceased launching rockets into Israel, then there would be no lethal Israeli use of their air-launched bombs and shells against the people inside Gaza, the West Bank or in Southern Lebanon.

1. Recognise the right of the sovereign state of Israel to co-exist in peace.

2. Complete cessation of all attacks on Israel and the citizens of Israel.

3. Halting of all threats of violence against Israel and the citizens of Israel.

If all involved follow steps 1, 2 & 3 above and you will have peace in the middle east tomorrow.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 01:37 PM

None of which makes aerial bombardment, whether by ramshackle rocket fired of irresponsibly or hi-tech weaponry targeted equally irresponsibly, something to be accepted as right and proper.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: DougR
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 01:44 PM

Teribus, you nailed it.

Kevin:It is still a puzzlement to me why you and others post articles from the Guardian to support your point of view. It is without a doubt one of the most left-wing publications (next to the New York Times)in the world! Perhaps I should expect you to accept as evidence, articles criticizing Hamas in "Human Events," a right-wing publication in the U. S.

I don't think so.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 02:13 PM

The Israel leadership has had a massive success in the killing and maiming of thousands of civilians and the committing of a succession of war crimes ranging from mass murder to the collective punishment of an entire civilian population and on to the destruction of an entire city.

However,this blood soaked leadership has been very much a failure in just about everything else it has done!
Hamas is still fighting and is having some success with its sniper and anti tank fire.

Israel is now embroiled in street fighting across a 40 mile long heavily populated area and although it has signalled it wants a "ceasefire" nobody in Gaza will be holding their breath.

Gilad Shalit is still a prisoner somewhere in Gaza although it is possible he is lying under a demolished building in the city.

A new president is shortly coming to office in the USA which may yet have some effect on the Israeli warpack.

And the Palestinians still seem capable of firing their homemade rockets into Israel.

Hamas still looks to have the support of the Gazans as the funeral of one of its leaders in the city a few days ago would indicate.

The image of Israel around the world is now a shameful one!

When lawyers and politicians and ordinary people talk about phospherous shells ,megabombs, cluster bombs and artillery salvoes fired into apartment buildings it is the young soldiers of the Israeli Defence Force they will have in mind.

The IDF will be in the Hall of Shame along with those Russian soldier thugs who destroyed Grozny a decade or so ago and those US soldiers who massacred the vietnamese peasants at My Lai back in 1968.

The Israeli leadership may yet find that entering Gaza is a lot easier than leaving it.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,davey
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 02:30 PM

Israeli foreign minister Livni faced a host of hostile questions and was called a war criminal at a press conference in Washington yesterday.
Outside the building the anti war group "Code Pink" " set up a chant warning "There is a war criminal in this building!".
It is something Israeli representatives are going to have to get used to in the near future.
Davey

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 02:39 PM

The Gaurdian far-left, Doug? Hardly - slightly left-of-centre in its politics, but well towards the centre. Though in a press which is generally skewed somewhat to the right you don't have to be very far toward the left of right to count as far-left in some places. As your citing of the New York Times indicates.

As for the article it could equally well have been published elsewhere - even in the Daily Telegraph, which I often use as a source here to head-off that kind of comment. Here is a recent article in the Telegraph - Gaza doctor describes horrific child injuries : A Royal Navy surgeon who has just spent two weeks performing trauma surgery inside the Gaza Strip has spoken of the horror of seeing so many children with horrific injuries.

But where a comment piece appears isn't really the point. The point is, do people agree with Simon Jenkins' view that aerial bombardment of this kind - whoever does it, Hamas or Israel or anyone else - should join "chemical munitions, white phosphorous, cluster bombs and delayed-action land mines" as weapons the use of which should now be recognised as a war crime?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 04:10 PM

John Pilger has scrutinised the Israeli Palestinian conflict for over 40 years here is his view. Holocaust denied: the lying silence of those who know



8 Jan 2009

Writing in the New Statesman, John Pilger calls on 40 years of reporting the Middle East to describe the 'why' of Israel's bloody onslaught on the besieged people of Gaza - an attack that has little to do with Hamas or Israel's right to exist.

"When the truth is replaced by silence," the Soviet dissident Yevgeny Yevtushenko said, "the silence is a lie." It may appear the silence is broken on Gaza. The cocoons of murdered children, wrapped in green, together with boxes containing their dismembered parents and the cries of grief and rage of everyone in that death camp by the sea, can be viewed on al-Jazeera and YouTube, even glimpsed on the BBC. But Russia's incorrigible poet was not referring to the ephemeral we call news; he was asking why those who knew the why never spoke it and so denied it. Among the Anglo-American intelligentsia, this is especially striking. It is they who hold the keys to the great storehouses of knowledge: the historiographies and archives that lead us to the why.

They know that the horror now raining on Gaza has little to do with Hamas or, absurdly, "Israel's right to exist". They know the opposite to be true: that Palestine's right to exist was cancelled 61 years ago and the expulsion and, if necessary, extinction of the indigenous people was planned and executed by the founders of Israel. They know, for example, that the infamous "Plan D" resulted in the murderous de-population of 369 Palestinian towns and villages by the Haganah (Jewish army) and that massacre upon massacre of Palestinian civilians in such places as Deir Yassin, al-Dawayima, Eilaboun, Jish, Ramle and Lydda are referred to in official records as "ethnic cleansing". Arriving at a scene of this carnage, David Ben-Gurion, Israel's first prime minister, was asked by a general, Yigal Allon, "What shall we do with the Arabs?" Ben-Gurion, reported the Israeli historian Benny Morris, "made a dismissive, energetic gesture with his hand and said, 'Expel them'. The order to expel an entire population "without attention to age" was signed by Yitzhak Rabin, a future prime minister promoted by the world's most efficient propaganda as a peacemaker. The terrible irony of this was addressed only in passing, such as when the Mapan Party co-leader Meir Ya'ari noted "how easily" Israel's leaders spoke of how it was "possible and permissible to take women, children and old men and to fill the roads with them because such is the imperative of strategy … who remembers who used this means against our people during the [Second World] war... we are appalled."

Every subsequent "war" Israel has waged has had the same objective: the expulsion of the native people and the theft of more and more land. The lie of David and Goliath, of perennial victim, reached its apogee in 1967 when the propaganda became a righteous fury that claimed the Arab states had struck first. Since then, mostly Jewish truth-tellers such as Avi Schlaim, Noam Chomsky, the late Tanya Reinhart, Neve Gordon, Tom Segev, Uri Avnery, Ilan Pappe and Norman Finklestein have dispatched this and other myths and revealed a state shorn of the humane traditions of Judaism, whose unrelenting militarism is the sum of an expansionist, lawless and racist ideology called zionism. "It seems," wrote the Israeli historian Ilan Pappe on 2 January, "that even the most horrendous crimes, such as the genocide in Gaza, are treated as desperate events, unconnected to anything that happened in the past and not associated with any ideology or system... Very much as the apartheid ideology explained the oppressive policies of the South African government , this ideology – in its most consensual and simplistic variety – has allowed all the Israeli governments in the past and the present to dehumanise the Palestinians wherever they are and strive to destroy them. The means altered from period to period, from location to location, as did the narrative covering up these atrocities. But there is a clear pattern [of genocide]."

In Gaza, the enforced starvation and denial of humanitarian aid, the piracy of life-giving resources such as fuel and water, the denial of medicines and treatment, the systematic destruction of infrastructure and the killing and maiming of the civilian population, 50 per cent of whom are children, meet the international standard of the Genocide Convention. "Is it an irresponsible overstatement," asked Richard Falk, the United Nations Special Rapporteur for Human Rights in the Occupied Palestinian Territory and international law authority at Princeton University, "to associate the treatment of Palestinians with this criminalized Nazi record of collective atrocity? I think not."

In describing a "holocaust-in-the making", Falk was alluding to the Nazis' establishment of Jewish ghettos in Poland. For one month in 1943, the captive Polish Jews led by Mordechaj Anielewiz fought off the German army and the SS, but their resistance was finally crushed and the Nazis exacted their final revenge. Falk is also a Jew. Today's holocaust-in-the-making, which began with Ben-Gurion's Plan D, is in its final stages. The difference today is that it is a joint US-Israeli project. The F-16 jet fighters, the 250-pound "smart" GBU-39 bombs supplied on the eve of the attack on Gaza, having been approved by a Congress dominated by the Democratic Party, plus the annual $2.4 billion in war-making "aid", give Washington de facto control. It beggars belief that President-elect Obama was not informed. Outspoken on Russia's war in Georgia and the terrorism in Mumbai, Obama's silence on Palestine marks his approval, which is to be expected, given his obsequiousness to the Tel Aviv regime and its lobbyists during the presidential campaign and his appointment of Zionists as his secretary of state, chief of staff and principal Middle East advisers. When Aretha Franklin sings "Think", her wonderful 1960s anthem to freedom, at Obama's inauguration on 21 January, I trust someone with the brave heart of Muntadar al-Zaidi, the shoe-thrower, will shout: "Gaza!"

The asymmetry of conquest and terror is clear. Plan D is now "Operation Cast Lead", which is the unfinished "Operation Justified Vengeance". The latter was launched by Prime Minister Ariel Sharon in 2001 when, with Bush's approval, he used F-16s against Palestinian towns and villages for the first time. In the same year, the authoritative Jane's Foreign Report disclosed that the Blair government had given Israel the "green light" to attack the West Bank after it was shown Israel's secret designs for a bloodbath. It was typical of New Labour Party's enduring, cringing complicity in Palestine's agony. However, the 2001 Israeli plan, reported Jane's, needed the "trigger" of a suicide bombing which would cause "numerous deaths and injuries [because] the 'revenge' factor is crucial". This would "motivate Israeli soldiers to demolish the Palestinians". What alarmed Sharon and the author of the plan, General Shaul Mofaz, the Israeli Chief of Staff, was a secret agreement between Yasser Arafat and Hamas to ban suicide attacks. On 23 November, 2001, Israeli agents assassinated the Hamas leader, Mahmud Abu Hunud, and got their "trigger"; the suicide attacks resumed in response to his killing.

Something uncannily similar happened on 5 November last, when Israeli special forces attacked Gaza, killing six people. Once again, they got their propaganda "trigger". A ceasefire initiated and sustained by the Hamas government – which had imprisoned its violators - was shattered by the Israeli attack and home-made rockets were fired into what used to be Palestine before its Arab occupants were "cleansed". The On 23 December, Hamas offered to renew the ceasefire, but Israel's charade was such that its all-out assault on Gaza had been planned six months earlier, according to the Israeli daily Ha'aretz.

Behind this sordid game is the "Dagan Plan", named after General Meir Dagan, who served with Sharon in his bloody invasion of Lebanon in 1982. Now head of Mossad, the Israeli intelligence organisation, Dagan is the author of a "solution" that has seen the imprisonment of Palestinians behind a ghetto wall snaking across the West Bank and in Gaza, effectively a concentration camp. The establishment of a quisling government in Ramallah under Mohammed Abbas is Dagan's achievement, together with a hasbara (propaganda) campaign relayed through a mostly supine, if intimidated western media, notably in America, that says Hamas is a terrorist organisation devoted to Israel's destruction and to "blame" for the massacres and siege of its own people over two generations, long before its creation. "We have never had it so good," said the Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman Gideon Meir in 2006. "The hasbara effort is a well-oiled machine." In fact, Hamas's real threat is its example as the Arab world's only democratically elected government, drawing its popularity from its resistance to the Palestinians' oppressor and tormentor. This was demonstrated when Hamas foiled a CIA coup in 2007, an event ordained in the western media as "Hamas's seizure of power". Likewise, Hamas is never described as a government, let alone democratic. Neither is its proposal of a ten-year truce as a historic recognition of the "reality" of Israel and support for a two-state solution with just one condition: that the Israelis obey international law and end their illegal occupation beyond the 1967 borders. As every annual vote in the UN General Assembly demonstrates, 99 per cent of humanity concurs. On 4 January, the president of the General Assembly, Miguel d'Escoto, described the Israeli attack on Gaza as a "monstrosity".

When the monstrosity is done and the people of Gaza are even more stricken, the Dagan Plan foresees what Sharon called a "1948-style solution" – the destruction of all Palestinian leadership and authority followed by mass expulsions into smaller and smaller "cantonments" and perhaps finally into Jordan. This demolition of institutional and educational life in Gaza is designed to produce, wrote Karma Nabulsi, a Palestinian exile in Britain, "a Hobbesian vision of an anarchic society: truncated, violent, powerless, destroyed, cowed... Look to the Iraq of today: that is what [Sharon] had in store for us, and he has nearly achieved it."

Dr. Dahlia Wasfi is an American writer on Palestine. She has a Jewish mother and an Iraqi Muslim father. "Holocaust denial is anti-Semitic," she wrote on 31 December. "But I'm not talking about World War Two, Mahmoud Ahmedinijad (the president of Iran) or Ashkenazi Jews. What I'm referring to is the holocaust we are all witnessing and responsible for in Gaza today and in Palestine over the past 60 years... Since Arabs are Semites, US-Israeli policy doesn't get more anti-Semitic than this." She quoted Rachel Corrie, the young American who went to Palestine to defend Palestinians and was crushed by an Israeli bulldozer. "I am in the midst of a genocide," wrote Corrie, "which I am also indirectly supporting and for which my government is largely responsible."

Reading the words of both, I am struck by the use of "responsibility". Breaking the lie of silence is not an esoteric abstraction but an urgent responsibility that falls to those with the privilege of a platform. With the BBC cowed, so too is much of journalism, merely allowing vigorous debate within unmovable invisible boundaries, ever fearful of the smear of anti-Semitism. The unreported news, meanwhile, is that the death toll in Gaza is the equivalent of 18,000 dead in Britain. Imagine, if you can.

Then there are the academics, the deans and teachers and researchers. Why are they silent as they watch a university bombed and hear the Association of University Teachers in Gaza plea for help? Are British universities now, as Terry Eagleton believes, no more than "intellectual Tescos, churning out a commodity known as graduates rather than greengroceries"?

Then there are the writers. In the dark year of 1939, the Third Writers' Congress was held at Carnegie Hall in New York and the likes of Thomas Mann and Albert Einstein sent messages and spoke up to ensure the lie of silence was broken. By one account, 3,500 jammed the auditorium and a thousand were turned away. Today, this mighty voice of realism and morality is said to be obsolete; the literary review pages affect an ironic hauteur of irrelevance; false symbolism is all. As for the readers, their moral and political imagination is to be pacified, not primed. The anti-Muslim Martin Amis expressed this well in Visiting Mrs Nabokov: "The dominance of the self is not a flaw, it is an evolutionary characteristic; it is just how things are."

If that is how things are, we are diminished as a civilised society. For what happens in Gaza is the defining moment of our time, which either grants the impunity of war criminals the immunity of our silence, while we contort our own intellect and morality, or gives us the power to speak out. For the moment I prefer my own memory of Gaza: of the people's courage and resistance and their "luminous humanity", as Karma Nabulsi put it. On my last trip there, I was rewarded with a spectacle of Palestinian flags fluttering in unlikely places. It was dusk and children had done this. No one told them to do it. They made flagpoles out of sticks tied together, and a few of them climbed on to a wall and held the flag between them, some silently, others crying out. They do this every day when they know foreigners are leaving, believing the world will not forget them.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: pdq
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 04:21 PM

John Pilger considers his writings to be "journalism as an act of war". He believes he can destroy countries and people with his words. Pilger has absolutely no regard for "truth" when it gets in the way of his duties as an assassin.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 04:26 PM

I take it that you, pdq, prefer the white phosforous??

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: pdq
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 04:32 PM

That is asinine even for you. If you can't carry on a sane conversation, perhaps you could just "stuff a sock in it".

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 05:05 PM

In defence of John Pilger!
Not that he needs any but he is a reporter ,writer and documetary film maker of the highest integrity.....and consequently is a favourite enemy of the neo cons,the warmakers and the exploiters everywhere.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 05:19 PM

Does language talking about journalists as murderers step over the bounds of what is appropriatye in "a sane conversation".

Journalists don't kill people, even jouurnalists we might disagree with In fact too many of them have been killed, especially in the past year, shot down in war, or murdered for speaking out. Here is a story with a video one of those killings.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: bobad
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 05:26 PM

Palestinians Against Hamas

    Injured Fatah veterans rooting against Hamas
    PATRICK MARTIN
    January 7, 2009

    RAMALLAH, WEST BANK — When Usama Abu Nahel looks at the conflict in Gaza he feels nothing but contempt. He is one of the people who hate Hamas more than the Israelis do.

    It was 19 months ago when Mr. Abu Nahel, then 25 and a member of Fatah's al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades in Gaza, was dragged from his house by a group of Hamas militants, taken to one of their warehouses and "kneecapped." He was shot 30 times in the left leg, doctors said; then in the right leg six times.

    "As I lay on the ground in agony, they ran over me in their jeep," he recalls.

    He'd like to spit as he says this, but not in the neat room he keeps in a house for victims such as him in Ramallah.

    There are 17 men, all with stories similar to Mr. Abu Nahel's, who reside in a sprawling house on a quiet street near the entrance to this West Bank city. About 35 other men reside in other locations around town. All were members of the mainstream Fatah movement, founded by the late Yasser Arafat and led now by Palestinian Authority president Mahmoud Abbas. Each was seriously wounded in the fighting that raged between Fatah and Hamas in Gaza in June, 2007. They were brought to Ramallah for hospital and rehabilitative care. They have not been allowed back into Gaza, and their families have not been allowed to join them.

    As a group of them gather in Mr. Abu Nahel's room to watch the television coverage of the fighting in Gaza, their emotions come to the surface.

    "Hamas works for Iran. They brought us back to the Stone Age," says Mohammed Abu Zakari, 48, who lost one of his legs after a Hamas shooting in the civil conflict. He has left his wife and 12 of his 13 children behind in Gaza. His 13th child, 19-year-old Ahmed, is with him, another Hamas victim whose ankle has been reconstructed.

    "I'm happy to see them eradicated," he said, blaming Hamas for the carnage and destruction now taking place in Gaza.

    Mahmoud as-Shatat, 23, a former student leader for Fatah, agrees. "Hamas consider us infidels," he said. "They brutalized us, their own people. I have no sympathy for them.

As they say: read the whole thing.

******************************************************************************************************

Posted as a balance to those who like to find and post articles by Israelis who are opposed to Israel's actions.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 05:38 PM

Ah Guest ifor - John Pilger, that explains it, that's where you get all this crap from, that's why you can't answer any specific questions put to you.

I'd like to ask Mr. Pilger the following:

4.       Hamas chose to end the "cease-fire" brokered by Egypt in June 2008, Israel wanted it to continue – TRUE or FALSE ??

5.       The responsibility for the safety of the Palestinians within Gaza rests solely with their elected "Government" and that is Hamas. It is up to Hamas to protect its citizens and act in their best interests to secure their safety, in exactly the same way it is the responsibility of the elected Government of Israel to safeguard and protect Israeli citizens – TRUE or FALSE??

6.       Between 2002 and November 2008, 3943 Mortar Bombs and 3702 Rockets have been fired into Israel from Gaza. During the last cease-fire, from the 19th June to 31st December, 505 Rockets plus 327 Mortar Bombs were fired into Israel from the Gaza Strip. Now can you explain exactly why you have never mentioned those attacks, which are indiscriminately targeted at Israeli civilians in any of your posts Guest ifor??

7.       Corporal Gilad Shalit was kidnapped on July 25 by a Palestinian militant group that included members of the military wing of Hamas. The militants tunnelled inside Israeli territory and captured the soldier after a firefight that left two people dead on each side. What was the tunnel being worked on by the Hamas militants on 4th November 2008 for Guest ifor?? Why were Hamas militants digging a tunnel from Gaza into Israel during a "cease-fire" Guest ifor ??

8.       Since the end of Israeli operations in South Lebanon in 2006 Guest ifor, can you tell me how many attacks have been launched on Israel by Hezbollah from inside Lebanon??

9.       The UN partition plan of 1947, which basically details a two state solution that the "Palestinians" are supposedly fighting for now, was accepted by the Israelis and rejected by the Arabs – TRUE or FALSE??

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 05:40 PM

How can anyone "read the whole thing" without a link of some kind?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: bobad
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 05:45 PM

"How can anyone "read the whole thing" without a link of some kind?"

It's from the Globe and Mail - you need a subscription to read it but I'm sure you can find it somewhere on the web if you really want to.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 05:49 PM

Anyway touch wood this ceasefire is going to hold...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 05:59 PM

I have a distinguished relative who shall remain unnamed, who recently made a documentary about journalists in war zones and the risks they face.

He went to Zimbabwe and Gaza amongst other places.

He said that the risk to a journlist in Gaza from the Israelis was far and away the most extreme of all the places he visited.

And it so happenned that while they were there reporting on it, two of their guys were killed, and he blamed the Israelis for their deaths.

He told me that in the documentary they had to tone down this aspect of the story or Al- Jazeera, who are afraid of being cast as anti Israeli, would refuse to show it.

We are not talking about film students looking for kudos here, but seasoned British News journalists of over 30 years experience.

Here is a link to the film overview. blue clicky

In the light of the current independant media blackout, the documentary I refer to takes on a whole new light.

We can't let the information out can we.


Teribus - can you provide us with details of the source from which you got your list of rocket attacks or did you compose it from your imagination.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 06:12 PM

Oh by the way,

Zionist and Jewish Member of the UK parliament Gerald Kaufman has recently compared the actions of Israeli soldiers in the current conflict to Nazi soldiers in WWII.

Presumably he's an Israel hater ...


Click here and read all about it on JTA "The Global News Service of the Jewish people".

Strong words indeeed!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 06:16 PM

Some 700 Israelis are believed to have been detained by the Israeli state for protesting against the invasion of Gaza and the killing of Palestinians there.

Around 230 Israelis are thought to still be detained.

Thje world's media has barely mentioned the protest by both Israeli Jews and Israeli Arabs but there is a growing voice inside Israel which is horrified and repulsed at the slaughter in Gaza.


A reply to Teribus

The state of Israel is responsible for the ongoing conflict .....and is responsible for the slaughter,the indiscriminate slaughter and mutilation, of thousands inside one of the most densely populated cities in the world.

I am referring for example to the three sisters and their cousin who were blown up in their house today by an Israeli shell . Or the mother and child again murdered today by Israeli firepower while sheltering in a school.

Israel is illegally occupying Palestinian land and has has done so, despite rulings to get out, for decades. It is am occupying , armed force, that has consistently bullied,threatened,imprisoned and killed the Palestinian people since the very beginning. The blockade of Gaza was an ongoing affront to civilised society and the latest attack on Gaza is only a more deadly escalation of that affront.Palestinians were either going to die slowly or quickly!

Corperal Shalit is a soldier in an occupying army.He is the ONLY Israeli prisoner in the hands of the Palestinian Resistance.I feel very sorry for him .I also feel sorry for the thousands of Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails,some of whom have been routinely tortured .I hope that no prisoner of any nationality is waterboarded or tortured like those in the hands of the US military.You say he is "kidnapped" but as a soldier in an aggressive occupying army he is clearly a prisoner of war.

The invasion of Gaza and the indiscriminate Israeli bombing has put Shalit's life at more risk.He could have been released months ago as part of a prisoner exchange.

In contrast, I praise those dozens of Israeli soldiers who have refused to serve in the IDF in Gaza claiming rightly that it is a war crime to attack innocent civilians with tanks,bombers,gunships and all the other horrrible weapons of war.

A last word about John Pilger.You are obviously past saving but Mudcat readers who are not familiar with this outstanding Australian journalist's work should seek out his books and films.They are inspirational.
I saw him speak several years ago at a literature festival about the Media and War and he received a standing ovation from the 1000 strong audience.
Speak truth to power!.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 06:41 PM

Here is a YouTube clip of Gerald Kaufman's speech in the House of Commons this week about the assault on Gaza:

"My grandmother was ill in bed when the Nazis came to her home town a German soldier shot her dead in her bed. My grandmother did not die to provide cover for Israeli soldiers murdering Palestinian grandmothers in Gaza."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 06:45 PM

Here is a link to a well researched and informed program about Journalists in Gaza.

blue clicky

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Davey
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 07:05 PM

I have just had a quick look at the Shooting the messenger you tube clip referred to in Guest Lox's post .
It is shocking stuff but somehow not surprising.The Reuters office in Gaza was hit yesterday and several Abu Dhabi journalists wounded in a rocket attack by an Israeli warplane.
Davey

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 07:18 PM

Well, well, well...

The beast has apparently gorged itself and is backing away from the table with a call for a ceasefire...

A little late...

Like I've said, no matter what, "Israel has lost this war"... It could kill very last Palestinian and it won't change this reality... But then again, wars aren't won anymore on the battlefield but in the hearts and minds of the global community...

But I doubt that Israel understands this reality so when it get hungry again it will feast again and again until the world tells it to stop...

Right now, that day is either upon Israel of very near...

This experiement plainly ain't workin' and down the road the world community will have to revisit 1948...

And I hate this because of my many Jewish friends but it is what it has come to...

This ain't workin' for anyone...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 07:28 PM

But it just might tip the vote in the forthcoming election. Priorities...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 07:43 PM

Thanks pdq, of course it was Paul Simon. I'm sure Bob wished he'd said it!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 07:44 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 07:48 PM

Must have double-clicked, oops

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 08:24 PM

Bobert:

The only beast I can see in yer words is yerself. You've been goin' out o' yer way to see this from one side and yer protests that it ain't the Jews it's the Zionists is fallin' flat on its face.

Hamas is still launchin' rockits and it sounds like you've not just made yer choice, you've chosen yer side.

(yer many Jewish friends notwithstandin')

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 09:56 PM

Hey, roboz... Ya' seen any pictures of these rockets??? They look like some 8 year old made 'um in his grand=daddies wood shop... They are about as scarey as a Groucho Marx mask... Might of fact, more people in Israel are hurt by car crashes in one day then are hurt by these primitive things in one year...

But, no, we don't want the world to know that... I saw pictures of them and they are junk... If Iran gave them to the Palistians then this speaks volumes about just how scarey Iran is...

But, what the hey, lets just go off and have us a little kid killin' spree 'casue we are piised off that imprisoned Palestians are shooting off junk at us...

That is a bogus argument, roboz...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 10:17 PM

Get stung by enough bees ya can get real pissed off, Bobert.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 03:20 AM

Bobert:

You bring up two interesting points:

1) the fact that Hamas would rather bang together primitive rockets which are and have been lethal and launch them across borders into a sovereign state when that state has evacuated Gaza territory and attempted to leave 'em alone to build up an economy.

2) your ignorance of the weaponry in fact being used. You haven't seen everything being launched by Hamas. You've watched some TV and ignored years of provocation, and are launching your own knee-jerk response based on ignorance and self-righteousness.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 03:39 AM

And get stung by enough bees often enough and you can end up dead.

Still no answers to the questions posed Guest ifor, now why doesn't that surprise me.

Now what was that you had to say about Gilad Shalit:

"Corperal Shalit is a soldier in an occupying army.He is the ONLY Israeli prisoner in the hands of the Palestinian Resistance.I feel very sorry for him .I also feel sorry for the thousands of Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails,some of whom have been routinely tortured .I hope that no prisoner of any nationality is waterboarded or tortured like those in the hands of the US military.You say he is "kidnapped" but as a soldier in an aggressive occupying army he is clearly a prisoner of war."

The facts of his capture - Hamas militants had to dig a tunnel from Gaza into Israel to mount a raid in order to capture him. In the ensuing skirmish, that took place inside Israel, two Israeli soldiers and two Hamas militants died.

Question - Precisely what land was Gilad Shilat, an Israeli soldier, "occupying" at the time he was "captured"??

Answer - None he was standing on Israeli soil.

Question - Since 15th August 2005 what sections of Gaza have been occupied, "aaggressively" or otherwise by the Israeli armed forces, Israeli settlers, or anybody else?

Answer - None

Question - At the time that Gilad Shilat was kidnapped from inside Israel were IDF troops engaged inside Gaza on any military operations?

Answer - None

Question - Is Corporal Gilad Shilat being treated as a "Prisoner of War"

Answer - No he most certainly is not. No-one knows for certain whether or not he is alive. The ICRC has been given no access to him, a violation of international law. He has no direct communication with his family. International humanitarian law absolutely prohibits taking and holding a person by force in order to compel the enemy to meet certain demands, while threatening to harm or kill the person if the demands are not met. Thus Hamas holding Gilad Shalit as a hostage to their demands is a war crime (You were quite keen on those weren't you Ifor??).

Example:
"In January 2009, there were claims from Palestinian sources that Shalit had been injured by shrapnel during the Israeli attack on the Gaza Strip.

On January 11, 2009, Abu Marzuk, deputy of Hamas leader Khaled Mashaal, told the London-based Arabic daily Al-Hayat that:

"Shalit may have been wounded, and he may not have been. The subject no longer interests us. We are not interested in his well-being at all, and we are not giving him any special guard since he is as good as a cat or less"

A logical, rational conclusion would be that the contention that Corporal Shilat was part of an occupying force captured and held as a prisoner of war is frankly ludicrous. According to a leading representative of his captors "he is as good as a cat or less".

Guest lox - sources - by the ton - just Google up "Israel Rocket attacks from Gaza" - Wikipedia gives the day by day going back to 2002. Somehow I doubt whether you'll bother to read through them.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 07:59 AM

Well, think about it this way, robz... If there was the "good stuff" that Iran has that we aren't being shown and...

...the "good stuff" is provocation for asking the US for 5000 pound bunker buster bombs to add to an allready nuclear arnsenal then...

...why is it the rockets that Hamas has been firing have not actaully, killed too many folks???

Me thinks the "good stuff" may not be all that "good"...

But, no, I do not condone Hamas shooting this junk into Israel... That is rather stupid...

What I do object to are hardliner policies that seek military solutions to every friggin dispute on earth... It ain't working for anyone... Especially Israel... Israel needs to change the way it interacts with its neighbors if it has any hope of being secure...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 08:50 AM

Uh, Bobert, Israel made a peace treaty with the first neighbor willing, as soon as that neighbor was willing. And ain't been a fightin' war 'tween em since.

If you bother to see what Hamas says about THEIR neighbor, you'll see they eat, breathe, and preach hatred at a religious level. And they practice what they preach. Kinda hard to preach even handedness when the attitudes are so far apart.

glad to see yore willin' to be reasonable youre ownself, after yore nose done been rubbed in it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Riginslinger
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 08:58 AM

"Israel made a peace treaty with the first neighbor willing..."


                Only because the US agreed to pay them billions of dollars it now doesn't have. And because it doesn't have them, the US should quit paying, and quit paying Israel as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 09:01 AM

Well, there are rude people everywhere, robz... I mean, back when I lived in Wes Ginny and worked in Vir-Ginny all I heard were tasteless jokes about Wes Ginny folks...But I don't remember Wes Ginny invading Vir-Ginny...

Yeah, I'm all fir peace but we have a 60 year history now where the question of the Plaestinians has never been addressed and until it is then there ain't gonna be no peace... I don't see the Palistians as having any cards to play in the process.... They are purdy much an imprisoned population and living in some very poor conditions... Gaze and the West Bank are nuthing more that 21st century concentration camps and will remain so until those who do have cards to play will leave the politics alone long enough to stand up for what is right... Until then, we will have one Hamas after another...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 09:01 AM

To Teribus
Cp Gilad Shalit is a member of the Israeli Defence Force which has been waging economic and military war against Gaza for quite some time.And not only in Gaza .The IDF has killed quite a few Palestinians on the West Bank during the course of the ceasefire in Gaza.

It seems to me that the IDF uses its weapons to kill or maim during the course of quite minor disturbances...say while confronting stone throwing Palestinian children and teenagers.

And there are many who remember how Rachel Corrie, a human rights activist, was crushed by an armoured bulldozer while attempting to stop a Palestinian house being demolished.

The IDF has surrounded and enforced a blockade on Gaza for about two years.It has strangled the city of over one million residents [many of whom had fled from the north as refugees from Israeli forces ].
This meant that children in Gaza have become malnourished [put them on a diet said one Israeli leader ],jobs and businesses were destroyed and the whole economy of the city in near collapse.

It also meant that humanitarian and medical aid was severely curtailed.

This form of collective punishment was carried out illegally by the IDF on the orders of its political masters in Tel Aviv and with the quiet approval of Bush and his gang of criminals in Washington.
The IDF enforced this blockade with its warships,airpower and its land forces.

The Israelis broke the ceasefire whenever they saw fit.

I hope Cp Shalit gets out alive soon. But I also want to see those Palestinians prisoners released at the same time .

The longer the IDF stays in Gaza the more likely it is that another one of its troopers is captured.

Let me repeat.Hamas is holding one Israeli soldier.Israel holds many thousands of Palestinians, some without trial, and there are many well founded allegations of torture inside Israeli prisons.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 09:16 AM

I'm afraid it never does any good these days Bill. If you believe in peace on all sides, you're in the minority here.

The shooting will probably come to an end at some point, probably when the people of Gaza have been bombed, shot, and starved to extinction, and there's nobody left for the intrepid heroes of Israel to shoot at.

I can't see it going the other way.

I suppose there's an upside. It'll mean one less Prison camp in the world.

Better if they just released them though.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 10:04 AM

Still refusing to answer fairly simple questions Guest ifor, can't imagine why you find it so difficult when you post with so much indignation and feeling. You prattle on about "JUSTICE" yet deny that for there to be justice there must first be truth, truth that you, Guest lox, John Pilger and a whole rake of terrorist apologisers here on this site simply deny.

Let's look at your latest "smoke-screen":
Point 1. - "Cp Gilad Shalit is a member of the Israeli Defence Force which has been waging economic and military war against Gaza for quite some time."

The IDF or any other countries armed forces or indeed "Defence Forces" are not capable of waging economic warfare, they neither have the international, nor financial clout to do so. If memory serves me correctly a country's armed forces have to go cap in hand each year to their respective Governments to get the budget that pays them for the coming year.

Back to the truth about Cpl Gilad Shalit - he was a 19 year old soldier quietly minding his own business inside the recognised borders of his own native country, Israel, when a gang of terrorists from Gaza tunnelled into Israel and kidnapped him. At the time he was kidnapped he was not occupying any land or acting in a manner that could in any way be described as aggressive.

IDF troops and their commanders use military force in response to attacks on Israel, or to counter the threat of attacks on Israel.

Point 2. - "It seems to me that the IDF uses its weapons to kill or maim during the course of quite minor disturbances...say while confronting stone throwing Palestinian children and teenagers."

And what is it that you would suggest they do, wait until one of their number are killed before responding in kind?? Are you really that naive?? Where were you brought up - Trumpton?? Camberwick Green??

Point 3. - "The IDF has surrounded and enforced a blockade on Gaza for about two years."

Correct me if I am wrong here Guest ifor but Gaza has three land borders, one border with Israel running NW to SE at the northern end of the Gaza strip, one border with Israel running NE to SW on the eastern side of the Gaza strip and a third border with Egypt also running NW to SE at the southern end of the Gaza strip. Now I can see how the Israelis could control their side of any border crossings on two sides of Gaza, but can you please explain to us all how the Israelis control the border between Gaza and Egypt??

Point 4. - "It also meant that humanitarian and medical aid was severely curtailed."

So humanitarian and medical aid has been severely curtailed has it Guest ifor, but not supplies of Iranian Grad Rockets. Now tell me how it is possible for Hamas to smuggle in weapons, explosives and rockets, yet it seems that they are incapable of smuggling in humanitarian and medical aid, did it just slip their minds Guest ifor, after all as the "elected representatives" of the population of Gaza one would think that at some stage or other they would look to the well-being of their population and place their own and Iran's political agenda on the back-burner.

Point 6. - "The Israelis broke the ceasefire whenever they saw fit."

I am afraid that the records show that the Israelis only ever broke the cease-fire when provoked

Point 7. - "I hope Cp Shalit gets out alive soon. But I also want to see those Palestinians prisoners released at the same time."

Lets face it Guest ifor, that would be a pretty long-odds bet. My guess is that like the two IDF soldiers kidnapped in Northern Israel by Hezbollah during their raid into Israeli territory in 2006. Cpl Gilad Shalit was probably killed shortly after capture. Videos and letters are not conclusive proof of life.

But one thing that our chat about Corporal Shalit has caused me to think about.

You believe that the taking and treatment of Cpl Gilad Shalit at the hands of Hamas is legal, justifiable and completely above board. It would appear that you condone such actions and have no problem with accepting it as a legitimate Palestinian tactic in their struggle for freedom.

So I take it that were Israel to do the same you in turn would have no problem with that. I mean how could you? What is a legitimate tactic for one must surely be a legitimate tactic for the other side.

Working on that logic the Israelis could say to Hamas, "Hand over Corporal Gilad Shalit live by 18:00hrs tomorrow or we will execute every Hamas prisoner we have in custody by mid-night tomorrow." Well that would be a damn sight safer than risking IDF troops inside Gaza wouldn't it. Or how about this Guest ifor, the Israeli's just tell Hamas that for every mortar or rocket fired 'X' number of Hamas prisoners are executed starting with the most senior first. At least then innocent "palestinian" civilians would not be at risk.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 11:31 AM

(Me thinks that T-Bird oughtta be kept to the one screen at a time posting... I mean, War-and-Peace (pun intended) length post of the same ol' garbage ain't worth readin'...)

How about no more than a screen's worth of your rubish at a time, T???

I mean, quantity of rubish doesn't change it's nature...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 12:32 PM

To Teribus
I have tried to be patient with you but I have to say you are a bit lacking when it comes to the Israeli /Palestine dispute.I don't think any serving soldier in the IDF is simply minding his own business on the border with Gaza.

He is a serving member of one of the most lethal armies in the world. It is an army that is armed with the latest military killing technology by the USA and it is a military force that the world has seen use its fire to break just about every rule of law when it comes to the treatment of civilians.

The IDF is a criminal organisation waging state terror against the Palestinians and two years ago the Lebanese.It has attacked United Nations workers and facilities.It has killed ambulance crews and attacked the International Red Cross.

It has just slain hundreds of of children,young mothers and elderly people.It has terrorised over a million people in all kinds of ways.Don't give that guff about its soldiers minding their own business in some non aggressive way.It has used chemical warfare in the most disgusting and shameful way.

And it has a track record of butchery going back to Beirut in 1982 and beyond.

The Palestine Resistance have every right to self defence. The Israelis keep massacring their opponents but they seem incapable of winning the war...or the peace.

I won't comment any further on your own personal comments apart from giving my general opinion that I find your views unsavoury and disgraceful.
Ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 12:37 PM

McGrath....The article you posted by Simon Jenkins...I agree wholeheartedly, in fact, further up the thread I had posted a message in the same vein, trying to draw the attention of members to the nature of "hands off" warfare, "sanitised slaughter".

What a disgusting species we have become, I wonder if Mr Obama can CHANGE the way we treat our brothers and sisters?
You are quite correct to take Teribus to task over this issue....this has nothing to do with historic rights and wrongs, this is about inhumanity, liquidation of fellow mortals with no emotional contact.

Teribus dislikes my "emotive crap" but when we get right down to it emotion is all that keeps us in touch with our shared humanity.
All the rest, the facts, the history, the legal rights and wrongs can be spun (as Teribus does continually)to suit any argument, or excuse any hideous atrocity.....Only human emotion remains straight and true, the warmongers are determined to remove all human feeling from the act of war...to sanitise it, package it and market it.

Someday ...if they get their way, we will have the technology to remove all life from any country, leaving buildings and infrastructure untouched.
The circle will be complete, we will have become God.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 02:28 PM

Bobert, when the Wginny folk get testy w vginny folks, which one hangs its own folks as informers and teaches its kindlings to blow themseves up and that God says its a good thing?

When Pallys and Israelis are limiting themselves to tasteless jokes and casting aspersions we'll be making real progress.

But yore sense of 'murrican histroy be too limited 'cuz you is forgittin' bout bleedin' Kansas and hard luck Missouri.

you got no dog in this fight so you ain't doin' yore 'search, bro!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 03:03 PM

Guest ifor re your last post:

First para - pure personal opinion, completely lacking in the slightest semblence of objectivity. Shalit was inside Israel therefore not occupying anywhere belonging to anyone else other that Israel - tell me where exactly would you expect to find a member of the IDF - IBIZA??? As for my knowledge of the Israeli/Palestinian dispute, I'd rate it against yours any day. At least I am aware that it started damn near 30 years before you seem to think it did.

Second Para - All armies are lethal ifor, not much point in having them if they're not. But, just because your team lost, and has lost repeatedly, you perhaps over egg the pudding when you come to assessing their capabilities. This one was about three weeks wasn't it Guest ifor. The last one into Lebanon was what 33 days, a long, long time for the IDF. Take a good look at how the State of Israel functions Guest ifor and you discover a major flaw and weakness in its armed forces. Lastly on the content of this paragraph how anybody championing the cause of Hamas, et al, has the gall to witter on about treatment of civilians beggars belief.

Third Para - The IDF far from being a criminal organisation are the duly formed and official military forces of a sovereign nation state internationally recognised by the United Nations. If this is the sort of "emotive crap" that keeps you and Akenaton in touch with your humanity, you want to stop smoking whatever it is you are smoking and find some means of getting in touch with reality. Rather odd, the UN in Gaza must be rather unique, or maybe just lacking transport. I mean they f**ked-off fairly quickly when the bullets started flying in, let's see - Bosnia; Rwanda; Darfur; Iraq; Sierra Leone; Afghanistan. Maybe Hamas didn't let them leave, probably needed them there for propaganda purposes.

Fourth Para - Aw c'mon Guest ifor, credit where credit's due, they've also taken out quite a few of the opposition - around 60% of the total number of casualties were "freedom fighters". And I will bet not one single round of ammunition used is prohibited by either the Geneva Convention or any other international agreement.

Fifth para - The track record for butchery goes way way back beyond 1982, all the way back to 1920 in fact - maybe you should read up on it, instead of continually clinging to inaccurate emotive crap upon which you and Akenaton base you arguements.

Sixth Para - Reality check Guest ifor, EVERYBODY has the right to self defence, including the Israelis - In fact they happen to be rather profficient at it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 03:41 PM

Is the implication that "the duly formed and official military forces of a sovereign nation state internationally recognised by the United Nations" can never be "a criminal organisation"?

That is a rather extreme claim in the light of the record of what some military forces that would meet those criteria have done.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 04:10 PM

"EVERYBODY has the right to self defence, including the Israelis - In fact they happen to be rather profficient at it."


So,Captain Blood, you see the butchery of over 400 children,and 800 male and female civilians in Gaza as profficiency?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 04:49 PM

ake, more of the one-sided characterization of the war from you. You are applying different rules to each side of the same conflict. You don't appear to be arguing for anything with facts / logic. This is all very well but don't pretend to be an arbiter of reason.
Once again I put it to you, select a course of action for Israel after being attacked repeatedly over a period of months if not years. That the outcome displeases you is already evident, but what about the instigation?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 05:09 PM

We are talking specifically about the Israeli Defence Forces MGOH. The specific charge laid against them was the bald statement:

"The IDF is a criminal organisation waging state terror against the Palestinians and two years ago the Lebanese."

The IDF is not a "criminal organisation" and in both instances quoted above by Guest ifor - Israel was attacked first, and that Kevin is a matter of record.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 05:12 PM

As with Iraq, the outcome will not be to the advantage of America or Israel; Muslem fundamentalism will be strengthened by this attack ideology will not be altered by murder, not even the murder of children.
My last few posts have been about the tactics employed,not the rights, wrongs, or who instigated what.
In this conflict, women and children are being destroyed in large numbers.....by one side. Regardless of which side was doing the destroying, it would still be patently wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 05:25 PM

Unfortunately ake, the women and children are part and parcel, as are Hamas tactics they are being used as cannon fodder and camoflage by their own men, or more properly, exploited by the men who regard them as property. And with the powerlessness of women in that society, they will be used quite literally as breeding ground for the next generation. And it is patently wrong. And it will go on as long as they get away with it.

It is an argument I do not wish to have to make to observe that if you think the large numbers of apparently civilian dead are excessive, what if those who control the sky decided they really wanted to kill large numbers. They have the power to carpet bomb Gaza, and it is a power they are obviously not exercising. At the risk of their own people, similar to the Ramallah affair.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 05:31 PM

To Teribus,    Re Israeli Self Defence
The Israeli Defence Force is a much misnamed military machine.

Far from being a self defence force it has waged aggressive wars against its neighbouring populations since the state of Israel was founded on stolen land in 1948.Indeed it specialises in the ethnic cleansing [the Israelis called it "transfer"] of the Palestinians from their homes,farms,towns and villages.

Spare me the cod zionist apologies and the cod zionist history !

Today Egyptian doctors have reported that they are horrified at the amount and the extent of severe head injuries suffered by numerous Palestinian children at the hands of Israeli troops.The children have been hit in the head by high velocity rounds.This killing spree had nothing to do with self defence and everything to do with mass murder which is still a war crime!

And lets be clear that Israel has one of the most powerful armies in the world and it gets much of its modern state of the art weaponry including those F16 warplanes from the USA.

How encouraging it was to learn that an attempt by the US to resupply Israel with bombs last week from a US base in Greece was prevented by protests from Greek workers!

Israel is a strategic asset of the USA . According to Steven Zunes an American scholar:


"An Israel in a constant state of war-technologically sophisticated and militarily advance ,yet lacking an independent economy and dependent on the Unitedd States -is far more willing to perform tasks unacceptable to other allies than an Israel at peace with its neighbours .As former secretary of state Henry Kissinger once put it,in reference to Israel's reluctance to make peace,"Israel's obstinacy ...serves the purpose of both our countries best".

Israel is like an attack dog slobbering to get off the leash and last week it did.But it had nothing to do with self defence and everything to do with elections in Israel and the need to reassert itself against the Palestinians after the setback it suffered two years ago in the hills of Lebanon.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 05:39 PM

Who attacked first is never a simple matter in this conflict.

Every atrocity is preceded by a provocation, every provocation is preceded by an atrocity and both are always described as "responses", and some people seek to justify them on those grounds.

For innocent people slaughtered in the process it makes no difference that the people doing the killing were seeing it as a response or not. But the cycle continues and will continue.

The consequence of this latest round of slaughter will inevitably be more killings of innocent people in the future. It won't have saved Israeli civilians, it will bring about their death.

But of course it may just have saved the present Israeli administration from defeat in the oncoming elections...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 05:48 PM

I don't follow your line of reasoning robo, I don't think the Israelis are trying to kill civilians, but clearly the tactics they are using are resulting in the deaths of a very large number of women and children. This state of affairs is wrong and would be just as wrong if Hamas were inflicting similar casualties on Israeli civilians.

Regarding the "human shield" red herring, we are discussing one of the most densely populated areas in the world, it would seem impossible for police, government officials, or militia to avoid being around the populace.
All borders are sealed, as I said earlier to the Israelis they are "fish in a barrel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 06:31 PM

Wheather or not Israel is intentionally killing civilians is not known... What is known is that by killing them with the world watching is not going top bode well for Israel in the long run...

And, congrates, T-Bird... Actual less-than-a screes post!!! Ol' bobert proud of ya', Son... I knew you could do it, even if it did hurt...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 07:39 PM

ake, again you have no alternative for Israel. You allow that they are not 'trying' to kill the innocent, which is more than ifor is allowing. In fact, ifor is making the same case I am, that there is no present Hamas position for negotiation. GUEST,ifor might well be to the right of Hamas, and is certainly not to the left of Hamas.

GUEST,ifor is not seeking a return to 1967 border. GUEST,ifor is seeking a return to pre 1948 borders, in other words, GUEST,ifor is seeking the elimination of the nation of Israel. GUEST,ifor isnot prepared to make ANY accomodations whatsoever. That is not a negotiating position. It is a polemic which has not changed all the time GUEST,ifor has posted.

By the logic of GUEST,ifor, there is no negotiating to be had. For GUEST,ifor there is no argument. It is victory or death, or more properly, victory for those who are called Palestinians and death for Israel. ake, your argument assumes or presumes accomodation. You and GUEST,ifor are not arguing the same thing, and there cannot be a counter-argument that will match you and GUEST,ifor at the same time.

Let us not forget that accomodations for peace have been made. Israel occupied the Sinai Peninsula from 1967 until 1973 and then made a full withdrawel as the arranged outcome of peace negotiations. Despite the fact that Israel still holds the Golan heights, and Syria wants them back, there has been no fighting because Syria is launching no attacks on Israeli territory nor civilians. The same is true of the borders with the Jordanians. The Jordanians don't attack, don't allow their many Palestinians to attack, so there is no warfare. Only across Lebanese and Gazan borders has this occurred due to provocations and attacks.

Israel attempted numerous times to arrive at a peace settlement with its neighbors who were states and with the Palestinians, starting right after the 1967 war. Most recently a prolonged effort was made with Yasir Arafat as the leader of both the Gazans and the West Bank, the Prime Minister of Israel, and President Clinton. These negotiations did not bear fruit primarilly because of Arafat. As has been said, "The Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity."

GUEST,ifor has had everything to polemicize about, but nothing to offer, and makes a case for continued war with every post.

If you don't want peace, you won't get peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 07:55 PM

And Israel clearly doesn't want peace... It has had its opportunities and blown them... They keep preconditions out there as if preconditions are the Holy Grail... If they wnated peace they could have it.... They are the only nuclear power in the region so it's all in their hands... They don't want peace... The want contrition...

They don't understand the culture of their neighbors or they would have have peace along time ago...

That is why they perhaps don't fit in that area of the world and their residents might be better served living where folks understand them and that they make an effort to understand their neighbors...

Security at what cost???

A couple million lives???

That ain't security... That is Hell right here on Earth...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 08:10 PM

As I write this, there is relatively little violence occurring. Israel unilaterally offered a ceasefire, and since then Hamas has apparently moderated for the time being.

It is uncertain how long it will hold, right now they are talking about a week.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 08:11 PM

Why do I feel like a citizen of Los Angeles who is hearing about a gang fight and is being expected to root for either the Crips or the Bloods?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 08:45 PM

The difference is that it ain't the Crips and the Bloods, Dick... It's the Crips and the old ladies at the local garden club... I mean, Israel is jst an arm of the US military and the Palestianians, well... They ain't...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: DougR
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 10:00 PM

So, Bobert, you're saying that if the missiles Hamas has been lobbing into Israel for months were a bit more sophisticated, more lethal, then one might criticize Hamas as being bad guys. Otherwise the world should view Hamas as just playful folks who like fireworks. Is that it?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 02:19 AM

Reply to Robomatic

I have written here on Mudcat on several occasions about what is widely seen as Israel's views on negotiations.

But for you I will repeat the basics!

Firstly Israel is not interested in a viable two state solution to the conflict. It has flooded the West Bank [where there were no Jewish people in 1967 ] with around 400 000 armed Israeli settlers who now live on fortified hill top forts and towns.

These armed settlers are often the most extreme zionists walking around with their machine guns and carbines.They are well organised and keep stealing Palestinian farmland,orchards and water supplies.And of course they are attacking their neighbours in all kinds of ways.

The situation is so bad that the Palestinian farmers have been issued with video recorders by Israeli Human Rights groups so that the world can see how they are being threatened and attacked. By its own actions the Israeli state has made a two state solution almost impossible to imagine.

The alternative is a one state solution in which all people who share that land Jews, Muslims,Christians, Arabs Secularists etc] would   have full democratic and civil rights with religious freedoms guaranteed for all. This is a solution that the right wing zionists openly scoff at partly because under this solution the Palestinian refugees and their descendents would have the right to return to their own land.

The third solution seems to be one favoured by the right wing parties currently in power ,or jockeying for power, in Israel.

Israel in a state of permanent or semi permanent war always ready willing and able to flatten its neighbours and the Palestinians with its full armoury of huge bombs,chemical weapons, tank shells etc.

It wants the Palestinians out of the occupied territories and indeed would like to see the 20 % of Palestinian Israelis who are Israeli citizens out of the country as they are a reminder of the demographic timebomb ticking away.

Israel wants a series of bantustans for those who are left.Bantustans surrounded on all sides by Israeli guards,walls and barbed wire with freedeom of movement under the control of the Israelis. And all the while it continues to steal the land from the Palestinians through for example the building of that giant apartheid wall.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 08:21 AM

Well, Dougie... The rockets certainly aren't all that lethal, that much is fir sure... I mean, we hear about hundreds of these things being fired into Israel and to date we haven't heard of any more deaths from them then the deaths reported of Israeli soldiers from "friendly fire"... In other words, the Israel military seems to be more of a threat to Israel than Hamas..

But I'll stand by my styatement that Hamas shouldn't be firing this junk at anyone... That is rude...

But in comparison to what the Israeli military is doing it's not even a blip on the radar...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 08:38 AM

"It has flooded the West Bank [where there were no Jewish people in 1967 ] "

And WHY is that? There were thriving Jewish communities on the Wets bank prior to 1948. Perhaps you will tell me where they are now, and about THEIR rights.


Oh, yeah. They were Jews, and have no rights.

Bobert, you seem to ignore that every time Israel attempts peace, they are attacked. By YOUR standards, if I declare you are a racist, and a murdered, and there can never be peace between us, and attack you and your family, YO have NO RIGHT to defend yourself, since you are ( probably) physically stronger than I am.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 08:41 AM

PART III - STRATEGIES AND METHODS

The Strategy of Hamas: Palestine is an Islamic Waqf

Article Eleven

The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine has been an Islamic Waqf throughout the generations and until the Day of Resurrection, no one can renounce it or part of it, or abandon it or part of it. No Arab country nor the aggregate of all Arab countries, and no Arab King or President nor all of them in the aggregate, have that right, nor has that right any organization or the aggregate of all organizations, be they Palestinian or Arab, because Palestine is an Islamic Waqf throughout all generations and to the Day of Resurrection. Who can presume to speak for all Islamic Generations to the Day of Resurrection? This is the status [of the land] in Islamic Shari'a, and it is similar to all lands conquered by Islam by force, and made thereby Waqf lands upon their conquest, for all generations of Muslims until the Day of Resurrection. This [norm] has prevailed since the commanders of the Muslim armies completed the conquest of Syria and Iraq, and they asked the Caliph of Muslims, 'Umar Ibn al-Khattab, for his view of the conquered land, whether it should be partitioned between the troops or left in the possession of its population, or otherwise. Following discussions and consultations between the Caliph of Islam, 'Umar Ibn al-Khattab, and the Companions of the Messenger of Allah, be peace and prayer upon him, they decided that the land should remain in the hands of its owners to benefit from it and from its wealth; but the control of the land and the land itself ought to be endowed as a Waqf [in perpetuity] for all generations of Muslims until the Day of Resurrection. The ownership of the land by its owners is only one of usufruct, and this Waqf will endure as long as Heaven and earth last. Any demarche in violation of this law of Islam, with regard to Palestine, is baseless and reflects on its perpetrators.

Hamas in Palestine: Its Views on Homeland and Nationalism

Article Twelve

Hamas regards Nationalism (Wataniyya) as part and parcel of the religious faith. Nothing is loftier or deeper in Nationalism than waging Jihad against the enemy and confronting him when he sets foot on the land of the Muslims. And this becomes an individual duty binding on every Muslim man and woman; a woman must go out and fight the enemy even without her husband's authorization, and a slave without his masters' permission.

This [principle] does not exist under any other regime, and it is a truth not to be questioned. While other nationalisms consist of material, human and territorial considerations, the nationality of Hamas also carries, in addition to all those, the all important divine factors which lend to it its spirit and life; so much so that it connects with the origin of the spirit and the source of life and raises in the skies of the Homeland the Banner of the Lord, thus inexorably connecting earth with Heaven.

When Moses came and threw his baton, sorcery and sorcerers became futile.

Peaceful Solutions, [Peace] Initiatives and International Conferences

Article Thirteen

[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its faith, the movement educates its members to adhere to its principles and to raise the banner of Allah over their homeland as they fight their Jihad: "Allah is the all-powerful, but most people are not aware."

From time to time a clamoring is voiced, to hold an International Conference in search for a solution to the problem. Some accept the idea, others reject it, for one reason or another, demanding the implementation of this or that condition, as a prerequisite for agreeing to convene the Conference or for participating in it. But the Islamic Resistance Movement, which is aware of the [prospective] parties to this conference, and of their past and present positions towards the problems of the Muslims, does not believe that those conferences are capable of responding to demands, or of restoring rights or doing justice to the oppressed.

Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the nonbelievers as arbitrators in the lands of Islam. Since when did the Unbelievers do justice to the Believers?

And the Jews will not be pleased with thee, nor will the Christians, till thou follow their creed. 'Say: Lo! the guidance of Allah [himself] is the Guidance. And if you should follow their desires after the knowledge which has come unto thee, then you would have from Allah no protecting friend nor helper. Sura 2 (the Cow), verse 120

There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. The initiatives, proposals and International Conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility. The Palestinian people are too noble to have their future, their right and their destiny submitted to a vain game. As the hadith has it:

The people of Syria are Allah's whip on this land; He takes revenge by their intermediary from whoever he wished among his worshipers. The Hypocrites among them are forbidden from vanquishing the true believers, and they will die in anxiety and sorrow. (Told by Tabarani, who is traceable in ascending order of traditionaries to Muhammad, and by Ahmed whose chain of transmission is incomplete. But it is bound to be a true hadith, for both story tellers are reliable. Allah knows best.)

http://www.acpr.org.il/resources/hamascharter.html

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 10:07 AM

From todays "Guardian" - Such commitment to peace must be very reassuring for the people of Gaza:

"Israel today pulled the bulk of its forces in Gaza back towards its own border at the start of what it said would be a swift withdrawal, so long as the fragile truce holds.

After Hamas followed Israel in agreeing a ceasefire yesterday, ending three weeks of heavy fighting that left more than 1,300 Palestinians dead and much of the coastal territory in ruins, Arab nations met to begin planning the reconstruction of Gaza's devastated infrastructure and economy.

The Israeli prime minister, Ehud Olmert, said his government wanted to get forces out of Gaza "at the greatest possible speed". Israeli officials told the Associated Press the plan was to leave before Barack Obama's inauguration as US president tomorrow.

No Israeli troops or tanks could be seen along the main road between Rafah, in the south of Gaza, and the outskirts of Gaza City, to the north. The bulk of the forces were believed to have withdrawn towards Israel's border with the east of Gaza.

Israel has made it clear it remains ready to retaliate if provoked by Hamas. Seventeen rockets were fired into Israel yesterday, some of them after Hamas declared its ceasefire.

Today, Hamas's military wing vowed to begin rearming as soon as possible. "Manufacturing the holy weapons is our mission and we know how to acquire weapons," Reuters reported Abu Ubaida as telling a news conference."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 11:36 AM

"The alternative is a one state solution in which all people who share that land Jews, Muslims,Christians, Arabs Secularists etc] would   have full democratic and civil rights with religious freedoms guaranteed for all." - Guest ifor

And the above is reflected in the way Gaza was "governed" by Hamas after the Israeli withdrawal in August 2005. Amazing how many of those trainee base-jumpers who died in Gaza were members of Fatah eh Guest ifor???

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 12:52 PM

What rights do the Jews have under Palestinian rule and occupation?


Tell me again about the Jewish settlements PRIOR to 1948 on the West Bank....

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 02:33 PM

This Wikipedia page gives the total numbers for people living in West Bank settlements in 1948 as 480, with another 2,300 in East Jerusalem, and 30 in the Gaza strip.

It seems likely that in a peace deal there would be no problem in getting an agreement that people who had fled those settlements and their descendants should have the right to live in the truncated Palestinian state envisaged.

I don't know if there has been any effort to negotiate for the same right to be given to Jews from other Middle East countries who might wish to return to live there and reestablish their historic communities. That would be a very reasonable demand, in exchange for a right to return of refugees from what is now Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Stringsinger
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 02:38 PM

Here's another religious war. Innocents are being murdered on both sides.

Hamas was duly elected. That has to be faced.

Israel is overreacting and will not get the peace that they seek by these means.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 04:00 PM

Date: 19 Jan 09 - 12:25 PM

It is highly unlikely that a one state solution could happen in Israel/Palestine for a very long time although stranger things have happened in recent years including the collapse of apartheid in South Africa ,the collapse of the banking system in the USA and the fall of communism in Russia and her satellites.

In the unlikely event of a democratic state emerging those gun totin paramilitary zionists would have to obey the law just like anyone else so the stealing of land,the random shootings and the demolition of thousands of houses in occupied territories would have to cease.

However, far more likely is the scenario of the Israeli state run by increaingly reactionary and militaristic and racist politicians and generals intent on pulverising the Palestinians.

The war crimes committed by the brave young soldiers and airmen of the IDF will not be forgotten either in Gaza and the other occupied territories or in the wider world. For some strange reason, people of whatever creed or colour, become outraged when they see pictures of young children blasted to bits by huge bombs and shellfire.

Those Egyptian doctors who have started to treat the child casualties with hideous head wounds caused by high velocity bullets cannot believe the insane cruelty behind such shootings .

The Israeli leadership tries very hard to eliminate the Palestinian resistance but although it has overwhelming military superiority thanks to US, support it still cannot achieve its military objectives. Yes, it destroyed the university,schools clinics,hospitals,the cemetery, civic buildings and apartment blocks and thousands of homes. Previously it smashed up the airport,sewage pumping stations and the power plants but it hasn't broken the spirit of the Palestinians. It has not managed to free prisoner Shalit. It did not manage to prevent the firing of those small home made rockets The Egyptians have announced that no foreign troops will be stationed in Egypt and apparently only a few hundred Hamas fighters were killed [ although thousands of civilians were maimed and around a thousand slaughtered in the air and land attacks that Hitler's luftwaffe would have approved of]. All this adds up to more slaughter and civilian atrocities the next time around with probably more policing of the beleagured Palestinian Israeli civilian population inside Israel itself.

I have a question for the Mudcat Zionists which is... What rights do the Palestinians have under Israeli rule and occupation? ifor

---

Reply to Bearded Bruce
"What rights do the Jews have under Palestinian rule and occupation?2

You ask the question but there is no Palestinian state?

Poor beleagured and shattered Gaza is no state...merely an enclave which is attacked and surrounded at will by the Israeli military which has imposed a land,sea and air blockade for the past 2 years.

The West Bank is ruled under military occupation and Israel is further squeezing East Jerusalem and surrounding it with Zionist settlements.The Golan Heights belong to Syria and there is still some disputed territory that is claimed by the Lebanon.

I will say though that Israel Jews who have gone to Palestinian towns and cities to show their support for human rights and against the Apartheid Wall for example have received hospitality and friendship from the Palestinians.

And furthermore anti zionists Jews who have protested alongside exiled Palestinians and other supporters of a Free Palestine against the slaughter in Gaza have walked arm in arm with them.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 04:23 PM

http://www.unitedjerusalem.com/Graphics/Maps/PartitionforTransJordan.asp



Sorry, the Arab Moslim part of Palestine has been an independent nation since 1923- with Jews forbidden to become citizens.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 05:14 PM

OoooH Kevin, how sneaky of you.

The question was - "Tell me again about the Jewish settlements PRIOR to 1948 on the West Bank.... "

NOT - "the total numbers for people living in West Bank settlements IN 1948"

Now if a simple sailor like me can pick that up I'm sure lots of people reading this can too. Take it all the way back to 1920, take a look at Hebron in 1929, those Jews had lived in this predominantly Jewish town for over 800 years as far back as records go.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 05:17 PM

PS For Guest ifor:

The Israelis control two of the three land borders that Gza has. Can you tell us who controls the third one? You know the border between Gaza and Egypt. Why have the Egyptians closed that border Guest ifor?? Surely the Palestinians in Gaza could get everything they needed through Egypt.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 06:58 PM

Let's be fair here. A number of people rooting for Israel have made a similar point, I'll quote Robomatic simply by way of example:

"Israel attempted numerous times to arrive at a peace settlement with its neighbors who were states and with the Palestinians, starting right after the 1967 war. Most recently a prolonged effort was made with Yasir Arafat as the leader of both the Gazans and the West Bank, the Prime Minister of Israel, and President Clinton. These negotiations did not bear fruit primarilly because of Arafat. As has been said, "The Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity."

One of the most recent major opportunities for peace was the offer made in 2002 in Beruit by the 22 members of Arab League, a group representing practically every Arab country in the region including the Palestinian authority. In return Israel had simply to agree to accept - not its 1948 - but its 1967 borders (which would still have represented an expansion on the original UN-mandated Jewish Homeland). This would have resulted in 'normalization of relations' such as happened with Egypt or Jordan. Isn't this what Israel always laments that it wants? So what happened?

Israel rejected this offer because it hasn't finished its expansion plans yet, which includes all the West Bank, Jerusalem and probably in time, Gaza as well, though given the barren clump of land it consists of it's less of a priority than the West Bank.

Similarly Israel rejected an offer of peace in return for abiding by the 2004 International Court of Justice ruling that its settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem are illegal (and withdraw). True, its not a signatory but nonetheless what the court - representing international legal opinion - decided was offered as another basis for peace by Arabs.

Well unfortunately you can't have it both ways, Israel said 'no deal' and everyone went back to war, sort of. Perhaps Iran is supplying weapons to Hamas and Hizbullah, maybe Syria is tied up in something, Israel is definitely dropping bombs and so on, Hamas and / or one of the other splinter groups are firing rockets.

It is my opinion that Israel recklessly squandered those (whatever happened squillions of billions of years ago) possibly not-to-be repeated chances for real lasting peace because it is greedy for land. I'm sorry but fair is fair. You cannot lay all the blame on the Arabs for what's been going on. Indeed some people have pointed out that the Israeli townships near the border with Gaza (Ashkelon etc.,) are in fact on land owned by palestinians and not actually in Israel at all. Though this can be disputed endlessly both ways the root causes are undeniable.

Israel's goals are incompatible - it wants the land of other people by force but says it also wants peace at the same time. Indeed the one clear implication of its goals is that in fact it is Palestinian Gaza and the West Bank that will be 'wiped off the map' ceasing to be delineated as borders on the world map, but annexed as part of Israel. Pro-Israeli supporters at this NY rally admitted as much -


"Right in front of the stage, a man held a banner reading, "Islam Is A Death Cult." Rally attendees described the people of Gaza to me as a "cancer," called for Israel to "wipe them all out," insisting, "They are forcing us to kill their children in order to defend our own children." A young woman told me, "Those who die are suffering God's wrath." "They are not distinguishing between civilians and military, so why should we?" said a member of the group of messianic Orthodox Jewish Chabad-Lubavitch group that flocked to the rally"

(You'll need to register with the news provider to read the whole article which is why I pasted a short extract here)

Link:

Calls to 'wipe out' Palestinians at pro-Israel rally


Had it accepted either one of the peace deals above offered by the Arab League, Hamas would probably never have been elected to power and it's equally unlikely we'd be seeing what's going on in Gaza now.

I think another question that has been posed remains unanswered "what rights do Palestinians living under Israeli occupation have?"

Someone tried to deflect it by turning the answer into another, spurious question about what rights Israelis have living under Palestinian occupation. I'd be interested to know which Israelis are living under Palestinian 'occupation'.

If peace is ever obtained there (and by now it's in ALL our interests that that happens) it won't be done by military force, except through genocide. Never mind Hamas or Israeli war hawks. Is anyone here willing to pay that price?

I'm not.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 07:01 PM

To Teribus

As you probably know the Egyptian ruler Mubharak rules only through the support of an army of internal security forces and secret police.Torture is commonplace ! A bit like Israel in that sense.

He gets his funding from the USA and without that financial and military support he would not last a year.

He has agreed with the Israeli leadership that the border be sealed and wasn't a wonderful sight last year when Palestinian engineers opened the fence and Palestinians streamed out to buy much needed supplies.Don't you agree?

Actually, many people believe that the freedom of the Palestinian people lies through Cairo and the Israeli leadership is going to have to be careful that it doesn't step over the mark and inflame the "Egyptian street" so much that the hated Mubharak is toppled!It could yet happen!

I read in one report that Egyptian children and a few adults were injured by Israeli shrapnel flying out of Gaza and also that Israeli warplanes flew over Egypt after their bombing runs which shows two things to me
1 The spinelessness of Mubharak and
2 Some connivance with the Israelis against the Palestinians.

He hasn't done his reputation much good inside or outside Egypt!
But do also remember that Gaza has links to the rest of the occupied territories and residents have been unable to visit family and friends for years...another form of emotional torture for the Palestinians.Gaza is still an occupied territory while Israel controls , threatens and invades its land ,sea and air borders.

Today the BBC News reported that some 50000 Gazans have been made homeless because of the Israeli bombing and 400000 have no clean water.How long before typhoid ,cholera and diptheria break out?


On top of that there are thousands of seriously wounded civilians in need of ongoing medical treatment and the health care system in Gaza has been almost destroyed with hospitals,clinics and civic buildings damaged or destroyed.

Israel has waged a form of collective punishment against the residents and its main victims are the children who are malnourished and traumatised and the sick and elderly.

These are war crimes! And I hope that this Israeli leadership is held accountable for its actions in an international court of law.
It must explain how the bombing of apartment blocks and schools packed with refugees is a legitimate war tactic.

Israel is not going to easily escape these crimes....the computer is a powerful tool and there were enough journalists and cameras in Gaza to record the atrocities!

ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 07:10 PM

Well, I don't know how the figures in 1948 compare with the figures at various earlier dates - maybe they are higher, maybe they are lower. I think it'd be quite complicated to get those figures for the West Bank as such. If someone can get them together, fine.

But the actual figures aren't actually the issue. The issue is the right of exiles to return home, and that is something that shouldn't be qualified by whether they are Jews or Christians or Moslems or none of the above.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 07:33 PM

Just to remind us what we're talking about here (and this doesn't come from the Guardian, bruce, it's from The Times, which no one has ever accused of being "left-wing"): Blind and burnt: Mahmoud, 14, young victim of banned white phosphorus shelling

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 01:48 AM

"The issue is the right of exiles to return home, and that is something that shouldn't be qualified by whether they are Jews or Christians or Moslems or none of the above." - MGOH

You'll have trouble selling that to the Arabs Kevin.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 02:12 AM

There are now UN calls for investigations that Israel has commited War Crimes & Amnesty International says that it has evidence to that fact. Gaza's infastructure is in complete & total ruin, it is a wasteland, food & water is very scarce as well as medical supplies & treatment. "ONE THIRD" of the dead are children, how many of the rest were woman & how many were civilians? So now Israel pulls out, because there's nothing left worth conquering & there's nothing in Gaza now worth saving. The US says that to rebuild will cost Billions. The money won't be coming from Israel or anywhere else in this world economy of today. So Israel has laid waste to a people, a population & an area now not worth resettling.
Hitler would be amused at how the Jews he couldn't kill have turned in todays world, he would be very proud of them & how they are so much alike. Israel should design a new flag & paste SS on it as it's background. This was ethnic cleaZZing, nothing less & all done with religious zeal!

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 06:45 AM

After the ARAB control of Jeruselam from 1948 until 1967, ANY peace plan that left the city in Arab hands was not viable. WHy didn't Great Britain just surrender to Hitler in WW II? THAT would have saved a number of lives, and stopped the war, as well.


If Israel wanted to eliminate the population of Gaza, the number of dead would be in excess of a million. ANY statment that the Israeli intention was to do so had best address that fact, or be ignored as a blatant lie.



I wonder how many Georgians were killed by the Russians in the recent "disagreement ", and why noone here ever declared that Russia did not have the right to exist?
Weren't they a lot more powerful, and was not the Russian attack deemed to be "excessive" by the UN?





Oh, yeah- they are not Jews.


No need to comment about it, then. Perfectly acceptable, since the Georgians actually shelled South Osnia ( sort of like the Hamas rockets) and Russia pounded Georgia into the ground, and let the South Osnians ethnically cleanse all the Georgians from the region. THAT is acceptable.


It's when Israelis defend themselves, AFTER asking for the rockets to stop ( and getting only more rockets against civilians, with no outcry from the people wringing their hands over Israeli attacks, that the world has to step in and consider attacks on military targets ( that are illegally located in civilian areas) to be criminal. As long as they are by Israelis, anyway.


Got to keep those Jews under control, you know.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 08:29 AM

"WHy didn't Great Britain just surrender to Hitler in WW II? THAT would have saved a number of lives, and stopped the war, as well."

                I wonder what the world would be today if they had?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,HUGO
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 10:35 AM

The Stop The War Coalition has called for a big demonstaration in central London this saturday.

It will be calling for :

An end to the blockade of Gaza
The bringing to justice of the war criminals in the Israeli leadership who gave the orders for the mass murder of civilians in Gaza.
And a Free Palestine!

Hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 10:51 AM

UN chief condemns rocket attacks on Israel
AP - Tuesday, January 20, 2009 10:18:08 AM

AP U.N. chief Ban Ki-moon says Palestinian rocket attacks on southern Israel are appalling and unacceptable.

During a trip to the rocket-scarred Israeli town of Sderot, Ban said the projectiles are indiscriminate weapons, and Hamas attacks are violations of basic humanitarian law.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 01:02 PM

Negotiate with Hamas – Object Lesson

The Kidnapping of Gilad Shalit
Early on Sunday morning, 25th June 2006, Shalit was captured by Palestinian militants who attacked an Israeli army post on the Israeli side of the southern Gaza Strip border after having crossed through an underground tunnel near the Kerem Shalom border crossing. During the morning attack, two Palestinian militants as well as two IDF soldiers were killed and three others wounded, aside from Shalit, who himself suffered a broken left hand and a light shoulder wound.

Hamas Demand No. 1
Shalit's captors issued a statement on Monday, 26th June 2006, offering information on Shalit if Israel agreed to release all female Palestinian prisoners and all Palestinian prisoners under the age of 18.
Hamas Demand No. 2
On 1st July, Shalit's Palestinian captors issued another demand to the Israelis, asking them to free 1,000 Palestinian prisoners (in addition to all women and young prisoners as previously demanded) and to end Israel's incursion into Gaza (Efforts to locate and rescue Shalit).
Hamas Demand No. 3
On 3rd July, the captors issued a 24-hour ultimatum for meeting their demands, threatening unspecified consequences if Israel refused to release the prisoners as demanded (Which demand, I mean, you'd have to move quick to keep up wouldn't you?).

Hamas Offer No. 1
On 4th January 2007, Hamas offered to give Israel a videotape proving that Shalit is still alive if Israel released all Palestinian women and children from Israeli prisons. Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert rejected Hamas's proposal. Shalit's father, Noam Shalit, seemed to agree with the government's response, stating on 7 January, "I want my son back, not a video or a letter."

Hamas Demand No. 4
On 7th April 2007, It was reported that the captors of Gilad Shalit have transferred to Israel, via Egyptian mediators, a list of Palestinian prisoners they want freed. The list includes approximately 1300 names some of which are high ranking Fatah members.

Hamas Demand No. 5
On 12th August 2008, Hamas noted that they are suspending talks on Shalit's release demanding a complete lifting of the Israeli siege.

Hamas Statements relating to Gilad Shalit
Statement 1:
On 9th January 2007, Abu Mujahed, a spokesman for the captors, asserted that Shalit "has not been harmed at all," going on to say, "He is being treated in accordance with Islamic values regulating the treatment of prisoners of war."

Statement 2:
On 11th January, 2009, Abu Marzuk, Deputy Chief of the Hamas Political Ministry, told the London-based Arabic daily Al-Hayat that:
"Shalit may have been wounded, and he may not have been. The subject no longer interests us. We are not interested in his well-being at all, and we are not giving him any special guard since he is as good as a cat or less".

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 01:02 PM

Riginslinger quoted the following passage from one of BB's posts and then asked a question:

"WHy didn't Great Britain just surrender to Hitler in WW II? THAT would have saved a number of lives, and stopped the war, as well."

                I wonder what the world would be today if they had?"

I think the following covers it fairly well:

"Hitler knows that he will have to break us in this Island or lose the war. If we can stand up to him, all Europe may be free and the life of the world may move forward into broad, sunlit uplands. But if we fail, then the whole world, including the United States, including all that we have known and cared for, will sink into the abyss of a new Dark Age made more sinister, and perhaps more protracted, by the lights of perverted science." - The Rt Hon. Winston Churchill, House of Commons, 18th June, 1940.

Oh Guest HUGO, I note that the "Stop The War Coalition" only demand that alleged Israeli "war crimes" have to be investigated.

Barry Finn – UEC – Usual Emotive Crap – 4000 homes and 50,000 homeless out of a population of 1,500,000 is translated into, "Gaza's infastructure is in complete & total ruin, it is a wasteland". Hardly Baz, I am sure the damage could have been one hell of a lot worse if the IDF had been intent on the wholesale slaughter of the population of Gaza.

"So now Israel pulls out, because there's nothing left worth conquering" – I don't believe that "conquering" anything was ever on the Israeli agenda. Hopefully now the "elected Government" of the people of Gaza will have enough to occupy themselves with doing something quite unique for them – actually providing for the Palestinian people – rather than progress Iran's proxy war with Israel.

Oh and 600-Up.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 01:03 PM

BBruce - I'm not sure who your last post is addressed to, but as it contains references to 'peace plan' 'viable' and "Jerusalem' I'm assuming cautiously that it's at least partly addressed to me.

1) Something special could be worked out for Jerusalem - maybe a bit like Berlin in times gone by. Afterall three major religions all claim it with some justification as their own, so it'd be reasonabel for them to share it. The devil must really enjoy the irony of the City of God being the scene of so much conflict and suffering. Afterall it is just a few square km of land, even if it has powerful emotional attraction for above mentioned groups.

2) "If Israel wanted to.... 1 million...etc.," Even Hitler didn't kill all the Jews - there were still several million of them left after WW2. I still hold that what Hitler presided over was a genocide. You seem to overlook that the Final Solution was the last phase of a long period of attrition that began with making life as uncomfortable as possible for Jews until they felt compelled to leave (along with communists and other dissidents). Once the Nazis felt comfortable enough that they could get away with that, they kept pushing the boundaries until it ended in diabolical and wholesale slaughter. That's the way these things usually work. I don't see any big difference these days, apart from cases where 'civilization' has already broken down and we skip straight to the slaughter without any 'legal niceties' entres.

3) perhaps you missed my post on Russia / Ossetia, I did protest about that, for all the good it did. No Jews involved in either side of that dispute as far as I know.

4) I'd appreciate it if you stopped trying to insinuate that I, or anyone else who disagrees with your take on this, does so out of a basis of anti-semitism / racism. In any case you would also be implying that by rooting for the Israeli cause you are a racist and the object of your racist hate are Arabs, palestinians in particular. I take it for granted that you are not some kind of paranoid racist but someone who wants to see a peaceful solution to what's going on. Likewise, it'd be nice if you stopped assuming all other voices are anti-semitic.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 01:12 PM

+BBruce Not much speculating with 'what ifs' when it comes to history, but would millions of lives have been saved if Britain had surrendered to Hitler?

Hitler would have carried out a much larger program of genocide - he also intended to wipe out Poles and Russians as far as he could, so we'd have to balance the loss of those populations against the 60 million or so who died during the course of the war.

But the Third Reich would probably have run out of steam after a while, just how long is anyone's guess. It was a personality-led creation (based on the cult of Hitler) and it is doubtful if it would have maintained its impetus much past his demise. Even the Soviet Union which was far less based on a single personality hardly survived a century despite the huge upheaval that accompanied its arrival on the world stage. Plus the circumstances that gave rise to the Third Reich would in time have been forgotten and German's less 'patriotic' about its origins.

But in any case I'm glad Hitler was defeated when he was, we Irish were on his list of 'inferior' people too, people who couldn't be assimilated easily.

But would he world have seen any less slaughter? Over 100 million people have died in about 100 or more 'small and medium wars' (eg, not big world wars) since 1945. I don't see that armies behave any less brutally when they think they can get away with it, whatever flag flies on their sleeve. War brutalizes those who participate in it unless they are lucky enough to be so revolted by it that they turn the opposite way, as happens at times.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Hugo
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 01:17 PM

To Teribus
The reason why the Stop The War Coalition is calling for Israeli leaders to be investigated for war crimes is because the IDF has been waging war on the civilian population of Gaza.Perhaps you haven't noticed but one of the most poweful armies in the world,armed with the latest weaponry and military hardaware has been bombing,shelling and shooting innocent women and children in very large numbers.And the use of phospherous bombs in overcrowded urban areas against a civilian population is illegal.

The statistics show this to be true.Over 1300 dead ,the vast majority civilian with hundreds of children killed by bullets ,blast and shrapnel.Some 5000 terribly maimed and around a million terrorised.
In contrast the Israeli casualties have been reported as 13 dead of whom 10 are military.

The mainstream news teams are now inside Gaza in growing numbers and they are reporting terrible scenes and crimes of the shooting dead of women and children huddling in houses, more bodies being pulled out of the flattened buildings and phospherous wounds which cannot easily be treated. The Observer reported the massacre of civilians in a Gaza village of Khurrza which left over a dozen dead .This massacre is only one of many killings committed by a supposedly proffesional army.

Come on now Teribus !
What are we to do with the slaughters? Give them medals? No,let's give them a trial which is more than they give their victims...the babies,toddlers and kids killed in their
houses,playgrounds,schools and shelters.
hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 01:22 PM

BTW, for another real world-class case of army brutality you could do worse than check out how the Russian army has been acting in Chechnya. Civilians have literally had their heads blown off by soldiers who strapped dynamite to them, and the rest isn't fit to print here. So, no, I'm not accusing ONLY the Israeli army of brutality. As I said, things haven't changed much in the last 60 years all over the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 01:27 PM

""yet when Israel shells Hamas morters placed BY HAMAS amoung civilians there are cries of protest?""

And who gave you the information that Hamas had a mortar among those civilians?

The Israelis? Oh well that's OK, because THEY woudn't LIE, would they?

And of course they have excluded all the journalists who just MIGHT have given a truthful account.

BBruce, you seem to think that he who posts the most, and longest, cut 'n pastes will have truth on his side.

No mate, it don't work like that. People just get bored and stop reading your crap.

Proof needs to be produced, and I don't mean Israeli military propaganda, or Fox News.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 01:36 PM

Nickhere,

So where are the cries that Russia has no right to exist? I hear that about Israel, and you seem to state that Russia has done worse.

So what about it? This seems to me like Russia gets a pass by those here that say Israel has given up the right to exiost by it's actions.


How else should I interpret this????

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 02:39 PM

Is "Stop The War coalition" going to insist on the leadership of Hamas being tried for "war crimes" HUGO - The deliberate targeting of civilian centres of population is "illegal" and Hamas have been engaged in this activity from inside Gaza since 2002.

Or doesn't that count?

Is "Stop The War coalition" going to insist on the leadership of Hamas being tried for "war crimes" HUGO - The deliberate placing of combat troops and offensive military equipment and the conduct of military operations from within civilian centres of population is "illegal" and Hamas have been engaged in this activity from inside Gaza since 2002.

Or doesn't that count?

Is "Stop The War coalition" going to insist on the leadership of Hamas being tried for "war crimes" HUGO - Threatening prisoners lives in demand for concessions "illegal" and Hamas have been engaged in this activity with respect to the kidnap of IDF Corporal Gilad Shalit.

Or doesn't that count?

If Hamas as the elected government of the population of Gaza, determine to attack a neighbouring state, a state internationally recognised under the terms of the United Nations Charter, then they, the government of Gaza and the population of Gaza that elected them, must fully expect that that country is perfectly entitled to defend itself.

1. Stop attacking Israel and recognise its right to exist
2. Stop killing Israeli citizens and threatening to kill Israeli citizens

And there will be NO MORE KILLING. Now once the Palestinian Arabs get that into their fat heads the better for all concerned - especially them, because they seem to pick up the tab for Hamas every bloody time. The only thing proved so far is that the Palestinians must be on one hell of a slow learning curve - I note that over the past 34-35 days Hezbollah up there in southern Lebanon got the message in August 2006.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 02:55 PM

Hitler would be amused at how the Jews he couldn't kill have turned in todays world, he would be very proud of them & how they are so much alike.

No matter how one feels about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, that statement is anti-Semitic hate-mongering.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 03:33 PM

BBruce, now you're off on another tangent. Have I said Israel has no right to exist? And what does a right to exist mean? Human beings have a right to life, that I take for granted, even further than many people, as I count all the way back to conception. Do nations have a right to exist? That's an interesting philosophical question as it tries morally to equate nationhood with personhood which is altogether different. The former is a political construct of recent times, the latter a unique sentient human being which I won't even attempt to define here beyond that point or I'll get into another long ramble.

We generally accept the inviolability of sovereignty (well apart from Iraq let's say, irony intended) and that nations have a kind of civil right to pursue their course un-interfered with by outside influence or attack. In practice it rarely happens though I personally accept democratic nationhood to be a fair and just model of how things should be.

But a separate question is whether states that turn 'rogue' should be allowed to carry on their course without outside interference and whether states that are fundamentally flawed at heart should automatically have some kind of right to be whatever kind of state they wish, no matter how depraved.

By way of example we could think of Apartheid South Africa or Mugabe's Zimbabwe. The general principle has been to respect these nations' sovereignty and to apply pressure diplomatically and / or through economic sanctions. Under international laws and conventions as they stand regime-changing invasions have generally been frowned upon until the Bush camp decided literally to take the law into their own hands or disregard it altogether. The problem with this approach is obviously where do you stop? Zimbabwe would be a ripe candidate and a case could even be argued for invading Israel. But who would get to decide these things and how would we ensure it would be free of the stench of politicking and only enacted from noble humanitarianism?

No one has tried to argue that South Africa or Zimbabwe as states 'should not exist' but that's not the same as saying they should be allowed to continue as apartheid regimes or dictatorships without hindrance or comment.

I don't think anyone (and Lord help me if I'm wrong, rolling my eyes) here has suggested Israel should be 'destroyed' or the people who live there slaughtered, which seems to be what you're suggesting with your 'right to exist' phrase.

I hope this goes some way to answering your question.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 04:28 PM

"Hitler would be amused at how the Jews he couldn't kill have turned in todays world, he would be very proud of them & how they are so much alike."

C. Ham
"No matter how one feels about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, that statement is anti-Semitic hate-mongering."

You may feel that way C. Ham, I couldn't give a dam.
It's a comparsion of two acting in such a way that one can't tell one from the other. It's worst though when one has been the victim & turns out to later be the one that inflicts the same destruction on an other that was inflicted on them. I would therefore say that the people of Israel have the history to know better & it's they who should "never forget" lest they become what it was whom they saw as a monster. They are now the modern monster. Of course they are not the only monster pushing their aggenda today.

To think that anyone could give a reason or excuse to what Israel has done to the people of Palestinian is the same as giving excuse to what we (the USA) did to the Iraqi people. There is no excuse, there were other bloodless wsya of pushing one's aggenda. Of course when that aggenda is expansion & land grabbing & the oppression of a people any old excuse will do, aye????

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 05:04 PM

To Teribus
Israel is a brutal colonial occupying power which has spent the past sixty years oppressing and killing Palestinians.

Of course the Palestinians have the right to resist that military oppression and the occupying power.

In Paris in 1938 a Jewish student walked into the German embassy in Paris and shot dead a diplomat in protest at the imprisonment and murder of Jewish Germans at the hands of Hitler.His tactic may have been wrong but i would never condemn his actions !

In the war, the resistance in France and across Europe organised at enormous risk to oppose the nazi invaders.
In Vietnam, Ageria, and many other countries whole populations have resisted their colonial masters often with armed force.

In Palestinine much of this resistance has seen young children take on Israeli tanks,unarmed international observers face down enormous armoured bulldozers demolishing Palestinian houses, and Palestinian villagers and pro peace Israeli supporters getting shot by the IDF whilst protesting against that giant Apartheid Wall on Palestinian land.

Even during the current slaughter in Gaza hundreds of Palestinian Israelis and Jewish anti war Israelis were imprisoned for peacefully opposing the war in Israel.

The resistance in Gaza has every right to oppose the invaders with their killing machines.As a previous writer has said most of the killing was done by young soldiers and airmen who were far removed from their young victims...as if they were actors in some appalling video game.

Reporters in Gaza have found examples of the most appalling racist and jingoistic graffitti on walls left by the departing Israeli soldiers along with their excrement.

Of course the Palestinians have the right to resist!The Israelis have the guns,the bombs,the missiles,the chemical weapons and the tanks but they are finding it harder to win the wars and impossible to win the peace!
Free Palestine!
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 06:03 PM

Yes all well and good Guest ifor apart from the following:

If the Arabs in Gaza have the right to defend themselves when attacked then so do the Jews in Israel.

Since August 2005 no part of Gaza has been occupied.

What on earth makes you think that Hamas in Gaza is fighting for a Free Palestine??

The Jews have withstood attacks and threats of annihilation for 89 years now and have withstood them all. Between 1920 and 1936 they mistakenly put their trust in the British to protect them. Between 1936 and 1945 they learned to protect themselves, learned to rely on their own defence, and assisted the British in crushing the pro-Nazi Arab Revolt. Between 1945 and 1947 they retaliated in kind when attacked by Arabs and the British alike.

When in 1947 the UN proposed a two state solution, the Jews agreed and the Arabs rejected the offer. In the war of independence that followed the Arabs were defeated. The UN brokered a cease-fire, the terms of which the Israelis complied with and the Arabs did not. Out of the former mandated Palestine the Egyptians captured and retained Gaza and the Jordanians took the West Bank.

In 1956 they fought again and the Arabs lost again. Another UN brokered cease-fire the terms of which the Israelis complied with while the Arabs did not.

In 1967 the entire Arab world openly threatened Israel with annihilation and positioned five armies on Israel's borders having thrown the UN peace-keepers out of Sinai. Israel mounted a pre-emptive strike that knocked out the Arab Air Forces of Egypt, Jordan and Syria. Over the next six days those armies were routed and for the first time Israel invaded neighbouring territories and occupied them. When the UN brokered the cease-fire this time Israel was adamant, the only way land will be returned is through bilateral agreements whereby Israel obtains recognition and peace treaties are signed.

In 1973 the Arabs struck again, in the Sinai from Egypt and on the Golan Heights from Syria, on the Jewish Festival of Yom Kippur. The Jordanians and the Lebanese sensibly stayed out of it. After some initial reverses the IDF regained the initiative and repelled the assault. Had they wished they could have destroyed Damascus and completely annihilated the Egyptian Armies trapped in Sinai and in Egypt around Port Said. Yet another UN brokered cease-fire. This time two bilateral deals based on return of land-for-peace were reached with Egypt and with Jordan. Those deals have held good to this day. A similar deal with Syria has always been tantalisingly close, but never quite there. Talks are still going on with Turkey as the mediator.

Now the Egyptians held part of the old Palestine called Gaza, and the Jordanians held the part of the old Palestine mandate called the West Bank and instead of just giving those to the "Palestinians", the Palestinian's Arab friends shut them up in camps and kept them in poverty. Assad's Syria, Saddam Hussein's Iraq and Khomeni's Iran became the backers of the Palestinian cause and kept the pot boiling with attacks on the civilian population of Israel. However the Israelis fought back.

If the Arabs stop fighting there will be peace tomorrow

If the Israelis stop fighting they will be annihilated tomorrow

You cannot negotiate with any group that has sworn to destroy you.

Another obvious truth is this - The Palestinian Arabs need Israel and the Jews to survive, they will get absolutely nothing from any of their Arab neighbours, because those neighbours have got nothing that could sustain and make economically viable a Palestinian State - Israel on the other hand has got something to offer, but it is not going to obtained at the point of a gun or by threats of violence.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 06:06 PM

Well, well, well...

Word on the street is that President Obama is going to appoint former Maine Senator, George Mitchell, as his special envoy to the Middle East...

Ya'll remember him??? You knowm the "Mitchell Plan" which was very close to the "Saudi Proposal" that the Bush folks refused to consider as a workable framework for peace in the region??? Yep, same guy...

My, my, my...

Maybe now that the Bushites have completely screwed things up with their arrogance that Obama agrees with me that these proposals that very well would have changed this mess are still workable...

Nice to get some vindication...

Go George Mitchell!!!

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 06:21 PM

I don't know, Mitchell has some success in Ireland, didn't he?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 07:26 PM

"The issue is the right of exiles to return home, and that is something that shouldn't be qualified by whether they are Jews or Christians or Moslems or none of the above." - MGOH

You'll have trouble selling that to the Arabs Kevin.

The pity is that so far as I am aware no effort being made by Israel or anyone else to support the right of exiled Jews from historic Jewish communities elsewhere in the Middle East to have the right to return home.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 07:53 PM

""Since August 2005 no part of Gaza has been occupied.

What on earth makes you think that Hamas in Gaza is fighting for a Free Palestine??""


Correct! Since 2005 Gaza has been blockaded and starved of basic human needs.

It would possibly have been better for the people of Gaza, to have been occupied?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 12:55 AM

"Since 2005 Gaza has been blockaded and starved of basic human needs."

It most certainly has not, the only times that border crossings have been closed by Israel has been in response to attacks on Israel launched from inside the Gaza strip, i.e. territory under the control of the Palestinians.

No attacks = Open crossings = Peace and prosperity for all in the region.

Israel is not going to go away and ultimately the people who live in that region are going to have to learn to co-exist. Over the last 60 years Israel has shown and proved that that is its intent (Egypt; Jordan; Syria - all former enemies). Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Hezbollah on the other hand have no interest in peace as long as Israel exists.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 01:59 AM

"Israel is not going to go away and ultimately the people who live in that region are going to have to learn to co-exist. Over the last 60 years Israel has shown and proved that that is its intent (Egypt; Jordan; Syria - all former enemies)".

So says Teribus.
Well Israel has just stated (see NPR News) that when they're finished dealing with Hamas they will turn their attention towards Jordan. I thought that they were just done with raining hell on Jordan or was it Lebenon or was it Syria or Egypt or Saudi, (it's lists gets so long it's hard to keep track), when they turned their attention towards the Palestinians?
I get it, when they done pissing on one people they turn as the wind blows & piss on the next in line. I think pretty soon they'll have pissed on so many the the pissed off nations surrounding Israel will all turn their attention to focus on Israel, all they'll need to know is that Obama won't back Israel if they lead in a war of aggression & that might be the end of Israel. You could say that they rained hell on everyone around them & there was none left so they had to piss on themselves, they've been pissing into the wind for a while now & soon the winds of change will turn & all they'll be doing is pissing into the wind. Like a dog that shits where it eats, their stink will haunt them.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 04:28 AM

I dunno, Barry. I realize that is is now proper liberal ideology to be anti-Israeli and to extend that attitude to all Jews. The conditions of the Palestinians are certainly deplorable, and I met a number of Israelis who had anti-Palestinian attitudes that I felt were deplorable.

However, there have been atrocities on both sides, and innocent people killed on both sides. They've been fighting a dirty war for generations, and both sides have blood on their hands.

I think, however, that it's a very low blow to compare the Israeli tactics to the Holocaust of World War II. It's a dirty war, but it's certainly not "ethnic cleansing" or systematic extermination. If you visited Israel, I think you'd find that there are two sides to the issue - and BOTH sides are wrong.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 06:51 AM

It is when people like Barry Finn paint all Jews as responsible for what Israel does, or when they hold "Israelis as Jews" to a different standard than any other country, that they expose themselves as anti-Semites.

That Barry Finn's hateful statement, "Hitler would be amused at how the Jews he couldn't kill have turned in todays world, he would be very proud of them & how they are so much alike," was posted to Mudcat on the same same day we witnessed the history of Barack Obama's inspirational inauguration sickens me.

As a Jew, as someone who lost relatives in the Holocaust, I take this kind of attack very personally. It goes way beyond the pale of any kind of civilized discourse on the issue of whether Israel was right or wrong in the way it fought the war with Hamas.

I stand with the Barack Obama, not with the Barry Finns of this world.

Here is a transcript of what Barack Obama had to say about the situation Israel faced with Gaza/Hamas when he visited there in July. Less than two weeks ago, in an interview with George Stephanopolous on ABC, the incoming president stood by the statements.

I don't think any country would find it acceptable to have missiles raining down on the heads of their citizens.

The first job of any nation state is to protect its citizens. And so I can assure you that if -- I don't even care if I was a politician. If somebody was sending rockets into my house where my two daughters sleep at night, I'm going to do everything in my power to stop that. And I would expect Israelis to do the same thing.

In terms of negotiations with Hamas, it is very hard to negotiate with a group that is not representative of a nation state, does not recognize your right to exist, has consistently used terror as a weapon, and is deeply influenced by other countries. I think that Hamas leadership will have to make a decision at some point as to whether it is a serious political party seeking to represent the aspirations of the Palestinian people. And, as a consequence, willing to recognize Israel's right to exist and renounce violence as a tool to achieve its aims. Or whether it wants to continue to operate as a terrorist organization. Until that point, it's hard for Israel, I think, to negotiate with a country that -- or with a group that doesn't recognize Israel's right to exist at a country -- OK.

Thank you very much, everybody. I appreciate it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 06:54 AM

To Joe
You are wrong to claim that
"it is now proper ideology to be anti Israel and to extend that attitude to all Jews".

There are many Jewish people across the world [including in Israel ] who are opposed to the attacks on the Palestinian people.They have been warmly welcomed by those who are opposed to the oppression of Palestinians in Gaza,the West Bank and in East Jerusalem.

These Jewish anti Zionists include religious and secular Jews.

I am thinking of those young Israelis who have refused to serve in Gaza and the organisation "Jews For Justice For Palestine". Or again someone like the late Tony Cliff [ founder of the Socialist Workers Party in the UK ] who was born into a Zionist family in Palestine, but as a teenager became a staunch defender of Palestinian rights.

The root cause of the conflict has been the wholesale theft of Palestinan land and the exiling of hundreds of thousands of Palestinans and their descendents who have been barred from returning to their homeland.

As one Palestinian MK said in the Israeli Knesset [parliament ] last week ,and I paraphrase, it is galling to be told by the son of an [Israeli ] immigrant to get out of the country when my forefathers have lived on this land for many generations.

Joe, you are wrong to say that there has been no ethnic cleansing. The Palestinans call the events of 1948 "The Nakba" or the catastrophe and it came about because of the massacres or threats of massacres at places like Deir Yassin and Tantura.

Yitzhak Rabin,later prime minister of Israel, was in charge of military operations in the towns of Ramla and Lydd in July 1948 .He estimated that his troops drove around 50000 Palestinians from the area, forcing them to march to the West Bank without food or water.
The United Nations General Assembly passed a resolution calling on Israel to allow the refugees to return 60 years later they and their descendents are still waiting.

Of course there are two sides to the conflict.

But if anyone were to visit Israel they would find it very difficult to go to the West Bank or Gaza because of Israeli
lockdowns ,roadblocks etc.

The Israelis are NOT nazis or fascists and it would be a profound mistake to claim they are. It is a mistake the right wing Zionists would be quick to exploit!

However, Israel bears a remarkable resemblance to a colonial settler
society characterised by periodic genocidal outbursts aginst the Palestinians.

The nazis sought to exterminate their enemies on an industrial scale ;the Israelis seek their "transfer" [what a polite word ] from Israeli territory.

However, the Israeli leaders have commited war horrific crimes in Gaza just as their predecessors did in Beirut in 1982 and again in Lebanon two years ago. They to answer for their crimes in an international court of law.How else are their victims to receive justice?

Until the problem of the Palestinian diaspora is addressed I cannot see an end to the conflict or the carnage.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 10:43 AM

Barry

Point 1: "Israel has just stated (see NPR News) that when they're finished dealing with Hamas they will turn their attention towards Jordan."

Well just looked at NPR News/BBC News/CNN and guess what Baz – absolutely nothing about Israel turning its attention anywhere.

Point 2: - "I thought that they were just done with raining hell on Jordan or was it Lebanon or was it Syria or Egypt or Saudi, (it's lists gets so long it's hard to keep track), when they turned their attention towards the Palestinians?"

Hard to keep track is it Barry? That may well be the case if you have the attention span of a Goldfish. Now let's see what the reality of the situation is:

•        Israel has not rained hell on Jordan since 1967 – 42 years ago Barry.

•        On 12th July, 2006, Hezbollah militants purposely fired rockets at Israeli border towns as a diversion for an anti-tank missile attack on two armored Humvees patrolling the Israeli side of the border fence. Of the seven Israeli soldiers in the two jeeps, two were wounded, three were killed, and two were kidnapped and taken to Lebanon. Five more were killed in a failed Israeli rescue attempt. There then followed a 33 day campaign by Israel to rescue the two men and to push Hezbollah northwards away from the Israeli border so that Israeli towns and villages would be beyond the range of Hezbollah's Iranian supplied missiles. This was the last time Israel rained hell on Lebanon. Previously it had defeated Lebanese forces in 1949, and raided Lebanon in 1978 and 1982. After the 1982 incursion Israeli forces held South Lebanon to prevent Palestinian attacks on Israel but unilaterally withdrew in 2000.

•        Israel has not rained hell on Syria since 1973 – 36 years ago Barry.

•        Israel has never rained hell on the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia Barry.

•        Israel has not rained hell on Egypt since 1973 – 36 years ago Barry.

Now then Barry, are you prepared to look into what Israel has had to contend with since it won and declared its independence in 1948. I somehow doubt that you will, but if you did you would detail an almost continuous catalogue of direct threat and confrontation from its neighbours, who immediately after each defeat continue their aggression by supporting terrorist groups in their attacks on the Israeli civilian population.

One other thing that may come as a bit of a shock to you Barry, going all the way back the Israeli War of Independence, in their battles with the Egyptians, Jordanians, Syrians and Lebanese they have never attacked or targeted civilian centres of population. They have only ever been subject to attack by the IDF in retaliation to attacks mounted from such centres of civilian population by Palestinian Terrorist Groups – Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, Fatah Al-Aqsa Brigades, etc. Had those groups not based their attacks from those locations they would never have been attacked.

Point 3: "I get it, when they done pissing on one people they turn as the wind blows & piss on the next in line."

Read that list up above Barry?
•        Israel lives at peace with Jordan
•        Israel lives at peace with Egypt
•        Israel lives at peace with Syria and is currently engaged in covert talks to resolve their few remaining differences using Turkey as a mediator.
•        Israel lives at peace with Lebanon provided no attacks are launched on Israel from Lebanon.

Now those are ALL of what used to be called the Arab "Frontline States" and apart from Hezbollah in Lebanon, Israel has lived at peace with all of them continuously since at least 1973 (36 years Barry) So where does this continuously "pissing on people in turn" come from – Must be from your own fevered imagination, certainly not from fact.

Point 4: "I think pretty soon they'll have pissed on so many the pissed off nations surrounding Israel will all turn their attention to focus on Israel"

You mean like they did in 1967 Barry? When it was not just the Arab "Frontline States" but the entire Arab world that united to crush Israel and drive its inhabitants into the sea. You should read the rhetoric coming out of the Arab capitols at the time – but I know you won't, or if you do you will glibly dismiss it as "Jest kiddin". That accumulation of force required the unifying influence of the Pan-Arabist Movement, which no longer exists Barry. The only possible uniting force in the Arab world today is Islamic Fundamentalism and fortunately for the world at large and the region in particular the Arab states involved fully realise where the dangers in that movement ultimately lead – their own destruction.

Point 5: "…..all they'll need to know is that Obama won't back Israel if they lead in a war of aggression & that might be the end of Israel."

For that to happen Barry, Barak Obama would have to repeal the bilateral mutual defence treaty that the United States of America has had with Israel from the day that Israel declared itself to be a free independent and democratic nation. If Israel is attacked and appears to be about to go under, the United States of America will defend her – Just start thinking out the consequences for the USA and for Israel if America did not – they are far reaching and absolutely frightening.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 11:11 AM

I can't see how that comment by Barry about how Hitler would be pleased at what's been happening is anti-semitic. If someone hate Jews, they surely want other people to hate them, and that means they welcome it when they behave in a way that tends to make other people hate them.
........................

It's a dirty war, but it's certainly not "ethnic cleansing" or systematic extermination.   Not "systematic extermination" certainly - but the state of Israel as it exists today is founded on ethnic cleansing. That is why the demand for a right of return for exiled Palestinians is seen as incompatible with the right of Israel to exist.

The population of Gaza is overwhelmingly made up of people living in exile from Israel because of their ethnicity.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 11:45 AM

Regarding Obama's speech - "I'd do everything in my power to stop the attacks"

EVERYTHING?

They could try being NICE to them for a change, and trying to help them out. That's within their power, and it's worked in other situations elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 11:51 AM

McGrath,

The comment says that all Jews, not even all Israelis, all Jews, are now people Hitler would be proud of.

One would have to be very blind not to see that as viciously anti-Semitic.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 12:15 PM

Obviously the "palestinian people", and not Hamas rocket-launchers were intended in my last post. Should be obvious but thought I'd spell it out anyway just in case!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 12:39 PM

In order for the person in this thread who is being called anti-Semitic to hate Jews, that person would have to hate half of their own family.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 12:43 PM

"The comment says that all Jews, not even all Israelis, all Jews, are now people Hitler would be proud of."

But it didn't actually say that. The word "all" doesn't appear, and I can'r see any reason to assume that it is imnplied.

It is very evident indeed that there are many Jews, both in Israel and elsewhere who are opposed to and horrified by the slaughter in Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 01:22 PM

In order for the person in this thread who is being called anti-Semitic to hate Jews, that person would have to hate half of their own family.

There are lots of families where that's the case.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 02:40 PM

"It is very evident indeed that there are many Jews, both in Israel and elsewhere who are opposed to and horrified by the slaughter in Gaza."

And here is one such, Israeli novelist David Grossman, writing in Haaretz, and quoted in today's Independent (London):

"When the guns become completely silent, and the full scope of the killing and destruction becomes known, to the point where even the most self-righteous and sophisticated of the Israeli psyche's defence mechanisms are overcome, perhaps then some kind of lesson will imprint itself on our brain. Perhaps then we will finally understand how deeply and fundamentally wrong our actions in this region have been from time immemorial, how misguided, unethical, unwise and above all, responsible, time after time, for fanning the flames that consume us...

For the rest of what he wrote, and an accompanying article, use the blue clicky. (I don't think we should paste anything here that is longer than a paragraph or so, except on occasions where a link is liable to stop working, or when a publication isn't readily accessible online.)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 02:59 PM

And here is a fuller version of what David Grossman wrote, as printed in Haaretz itself. (And it's admirable that it could be printed there.)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 03:04 PM

The ban on two Arab parties from running in the Israeli election that was discussed earlier in this thread has been overturned by Israel's Supreme Court.

Here is the JTA story received today

***

Supreme Court: Arab parties can run
January 21, 2009

JERUSALEM (JTA) -- Israel's Supreme Court ruled that two Arab parties should not be disqualified from national elections.

On Wednesday, the court overturned the decision of Israel's Central Elections Committee to ban the Balad and United Arab List-Ta'al parties from the Feb. 10 elections.

The nine justices on the court's panel decided unanimously in the case of the United Arab List-Ta'al party and by a majority for Balad, according to Ynet.

The elections panel had disqualified the parties based on petitions claiming that the parties do not recognize Israel as the Jewish homeland and call for armed conflict against Israel. A 500-page appeal was filed Monday.

Subject: Desecrating the Holocaust is racism - don't do it!
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 03:36 PM

Whatever the case, I think it's better to avoid comparing anything to the wholesale extermination of Jews by Hitler during the Holocaust. Comparing Jews to Hitler is a particularly insulting and racist thing to do, and yet it has become acceptable conduct among a good number of my fellow liberals who should know better.

I think that liberal Americans are disillusioned by Israel and its conduct toward Palestinians - and rightly so. And many liberals repeatedly make the same mistake Barry made, of blaming Jews in general for the conduct of the Israeli government. Israel was founded on the highest of ideals, and I think many of us grew up in a time when we looked on Israel as a shining star of hope after the horrors of the Holocaust. But since the 1950's, Israel as a nation has used incredibly sophisticated and cruel military tactics and weaponry against people who were far inferior in strength and supplies. I haven't seen systematic extermination that somebody above claims, but it's certainly clear that Israel has persecuted Palestinians and kept them in suffering and poverty throughout the entire history of the nation of Israel. A favored Israeli tactic is to drive unarmed and innocent Palestinians from their homes, and then to destroy those homes with bulldozers - this has been done thousands of times, and it is deplorable. There have been countless incidents of killings of unarmed Palestinians by Israeli soldiers, and Israel has not brought these killings to an end. But still, I don't see evidence of systematic extermination on a scale anywhere comparable to the Holocaust.

For Jews, the Holocaust is a horrible event that is nonetheless sacred and holy. The victims of the Holocaust were totally defenseless and innocent, and were not a political power at all. Jewish people rightly look in this event as sacred, because it was the martyrdom of half of the Jewish people, men and women and children who were completely helpless and innocent. To desecrate the Holocaust by accusing Jews of doing the same thing, is as serious and senseless and outrageous a sacrilege as urinating on a Koran or raping another person's spouse or child.

To desecrate the sacred memory of those who died in the Holocaust, is the ultimate outrage that one can commit against the Jewish people, far more racist and outrageous than desecrating the Torah.

If you think the conduct of the Israeli government has been deplorable for generations, say to - and explain why. I'll most probably agree with you. However, don't resort to comparing anything to the Holocaust.

Don't say it's OK for so-and-so to desecrate the Holocaust because he/she is "half Jewish." Most likely, he or she was not raised in the Jewish tradition, and doesn't understand the seriousness of the offense.

I'm telling you this: desecrating the memory of the Holocaust is the worst act of racism you can commit against a Jew, and the conduct of Israel is no justification for your racism. Israel has done horrible things, but that does not give you justification to desecrate the Holocaust. Whatever the offense of the other party, it is never a justification for us to respond with racism. Even liberals need to know that.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 03:42 PM

This conflict has to do with a technologically advanced country that has over-reacted to a continued series of daily rocket attacks by Hamas. (The rocket attacks occurred daily for years.) Not one damned person on this or any other thread said they deplored that. You are now saying "He hit me back first." If Hamas gave a shit about the safety and security of its people, it would have halted the attacks. PLEASE, do NOT cover your hatred of Jews by making it out to be a hatred of Israel. I am making this post as a general statement. If the shoe fit . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 04:09 PM

I'd wholly agree with Joe there about misusing the Holocaust as a way of making a point, or justifying some action. That gets done too often, both by critics of Israel and supporters, as well as in other contexts.

I don't actually think that was actually what was being done there in that comment that has been described as "anti-semitic". But the fact that it elicited the assumption that it was being done is a reminder of how carefully people should tread in this area.

The same goes for unsubtantiated allegations that critics of Israel are expressing "hatred of Jews", which can fall very close to that kind of misuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 04:11 PM

And where was YOUR protest when Hamas was attacking Israel daily?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 04:24 PM

Thanks Joe.

And Peace, as per usual, you are 100% correct in what you say.

Speaking as a Jew who believes in Israel, I do not agree with much of what Israel has done historically and recently.

Speaking as a Canadian, I do not agree with much of what Canada has done historically (or recently in denying freedom of expression to English-speakers in Quebec, the province I gew up in).

I know there are many Americans who do not agree with what their country has done in many places over many years. The numbers of innocent Iraqis killed by the Americans in the past few years completely dwarfs the numbers of innocent Palestinians killed by Israelis over its entire history. Which is not to excuse the killing of any innocent people. And let us not forget that it is only innocent civilians, and not military targets, that Hamas and other Palestinian terrorist groups target.

And let us not forget that yesterday Barack Obama, an African American, moved into a house that was built by the slave labor of African Americans. I am old enough to remember when African Americans were legally segregated and denied voting rights in many parts of the United States of America.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 04:34 PM

I agree that one shouldn't hold all Jews responsible for what the government of Israel is and has been doing. The world is deeply indebted to the many thousands (possibly millions) of Jews worldwide who are working very hard to try to stop these things from being done, some of them even making the ultimate sacrifice in service to this end.

On the subject of desecrating the memory of the Holocaust, however, there are Holocaust survivors, and descendents of Holocaust survivors, who feel that it is the government of Israel that is desecrating the memory of the Holocaust by using it as moral cover for what they are doing. The video posted above from Sir Gerald Kaufman, reposted here, provides an example...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMGuYjt6CP8

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: pdq
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 05:53 PM

"...continued series of daily rocket attacks by Hamas. (The rocket attacks occurred daily for years.) Not one damned person on this or any other thread said they deplored that."

Actually, there are several of us who have made that point over and over.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 06:05 PM

Some of us also haven't expressed an opinion about Israel's most recent attack on Gaza, either.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 06:13 PM

I've said my bit about the evils of Hamas in the wrong thread, the 'Taleban blowing up schools' thread...

So I'll say this, instead, and it will hopefully bring some warmth hope and light to this thread...

The other day, I wrote to a young woman I have spoken to a few times in Myspace, Aliza Hava. Aliza is Jewish, lives in the USA but is often out in Israel, joining with her musician friends out there, both Israeli and Palestinian, working to help bring about peace.
I just wanted to let her know that I was thinking about her, and her friends. Here is her reply, with her link put in below:

"Thank you, Lizzie, for your message.

I am in Israel right now, working with Palestinians and Israelis who want peace. This week I will be going to the West Bank to play with Arab and Jewish musicians and performing in a concert to raise money for an indigenous rights organization here in the Holy Land. Please let your friends know that there is hope, that there are many people on the ground working for change. In fact, there is a huge humanitarian aid drive being run now by Israelis to send blankets and food to people in Gaza. There is an article about it here: http://www. jpost. com/servlet/Satellite?cid=12 32292897793&pagename=JPost%2FJPArt.

Your email is so deeply appreciated.

Bless you and thank you again for your encouragement and prayers.

All the best,
Aliza"

Aliza's link from above - Israelis helping Palestinians

Aliza Hava Myspace

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 06:14 PM

OK, while some a backpeddling here I'll admit thamaybe I was a bit to harsh by my comparsions to Hilter & the Nazi machine. But I was not to far off base.
I do not support the rocket fire from Hams & never did thought I can understand & if I had grown up in Gaza under the foot of the Israeli's I most likely would be firing rockets myself unless they'd had opened up a border so I could take my family & leave, which is what the govenment of Israel wants.

HJoe, I do believe it is "attempted extermination" that is being practiced by the Isralei's. How else can one explain the ruinaton of a people, thier homes, thier infrastructure, leaving them without medical facilities, supplies or treatment (against international law & the Geneva Conventions), access to clean & drinkable water & food. The destrruction of homes & shelter from the carnage. Those who weren't killed will in many cases die from a lack of resources, medical attention, injuries that have gone untreated, disease that will follow the unsanitary conditions that come with the destruction of Gaza. What do you call it, war. It's not war when a civilion population is under blockade, lockdown, restriction of goods, food & medical supplies & then is attacked by another nations military might & with the force that's uncalled for. Neither can you call it "Tit for Tat" nor pay back. It's clearly not revenge. It's the subjugation of a people for the complete control & if subjugation doesn't work annilhilation is what follows as we have seen. Is that not the same as attempting extermination?

C.Ham, Thanks for the family history & background. My father was decorated in WWII, his family was driven out of Eastern Europe. As A Jew my father who has no living relitaves left living in Europe, so neither do I, he opposed Israel's subugation of all the peoples of the Occupied Terrorities, so do I. So, I don't care where you're from or who you are, if you support what Israel has just done to Gaza you are a supporter of a government that supports & wages extermination on a weaker people & for the uunjust reasons that it is only protecting itself. Well, when you keep taking the food off my table, you prevent me form earning a living, deprive me of my basic human needs & requirements for a sustainable live you'll have to excuse me while I break you neck & try to get on with the process of living.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 06:27 PM

Joe your post was very thoughtful for the most part, but you damn Israel with faint praise when you write, "But still, I don't see evidence of systematic extermination on a scale anywhere comparable to the Holocaust."

There is no systematic extermination on any scale! Israel has attacked smuggling tunnels, and places whence rocket attacks emanated. There have been a couple of questionable targets, but those may yet have been places that Hamas was using, too.

Frankly, I think Israel left too soon. Hamas is already rebuilding and using tunnels to re-supply. This kabuki theater will encore in 12-18 months when the Israeli government tires of having rockets fired at Israeli cities. But by then Hamas will be better armed and able to inflict more 'equitable' damage on Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 06:31 PM

Once again I make the point that, so far as I can, see there is nobody posting on the Mudcat who thinks that Hamas firing those rockets has been the right thing to do. If there were, there would be every reason for those who do not believe these actions are justified to express strong disagreement with them. That would include me.

On the other hand there are a number of people people who do think that Israel's attacks on Gaza, and its imposition of a brutal blockade, have been the right thing to do.   And that means that there is every reason people who do not believe these actions are justified to express strong disagreement with them. And that includes me as well.

In both cases I believe that the violence and brutality not merely causes death and suffering to innocent people on the other side, it also endangers people on the same side, and entrenches the conflict. All it produces is more dead and maimed people and devastated lives.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 06:43 PM

re my Crips and Bloods analogy--
Bobert-
Are you saying that , in a gang situation, the little old ladies in the garden club who are attacking the other gang, however ineffectually, should get our sympathy and support? Look, massive retaliation, whether one likes it or not, is a time-honored tactic.

The only way to stop it is to have a stronger force policing both sides.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 06:54 PM

I was hoping to go to Israel in March, but the trip got cancelled - a combination of the current political situation in Israel and the economic situation in the U.S. made it so we didn't have enought people for the tour.

When I was in Israel in 1999, I was disturbed by the attitudes Israelis had about Palestinians, very similar to the racist attitudes white people had about Blacks when I was growing up in Detroit and Milwaukee. The Israelis I met were nice, decent people - but almost all of them had distressing, racist things to say about Palestinians. What I heard Israelis say about Palestinians, was almost a carbon copy of what I heard from nice white people about Blacks as a kid.

Racism is never right. The "other side" may have its faults, but the reason for those faults is never race or ethnic origin. We need to learn to never use racism as a weapon, to address issues, not race. Even if the "other side" is racist, that does not justify our own racism.

The memory of those who died in the Holocaust is sacred, and we need to always respect their sacred memory. They were innocent victoms of a horrible act. I suppose that's the worst part of warfare, especially modern warfare. Instead of attacking an opponent directly, too often the victims of war are the innocent ones. I suppose that's why rape is one of the most horrible outrages of war - the victim is almost always totally innocent and helpless. When a soldier kills another soldier, there is some justification, I suppose - but when warfare involves rape and destruction of homes and desecration of what people hold sacret, it is an outrage.

In the 60-year war in Palestine, these outrages have been committed continually on both sides. The people primarily responsible are the leaders, although I think that a culture of hate and racism has developed among the common people on both sides. That makes true and lasting peace almost impossible.

What will it take to bring lasting peace to Palestine? Is there any hope?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 12:46 AM

"In the 60-year war in Palestine, these outrages have been committed continually on both sides. The people primarily responsible are the leaders, although I think that a culture of hate and racism has developed among the common people on both sides. That makes true and lasting peace almost impossible."

Amen to that!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 12:48 AM

My apologies to PDQ and some others. I know you did. Heat of the moment is no excuse. Sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 07:50 AM

The following is an op-ed from today's National Post by the Honourable Irwin Cotler, law professor, noted human rights activist, former Minister of Justice of Canada, Member of Parliament (Mount Royal).

***
Beyond the fog of war

Asking yourself these 13 questions about the Israel-Hamas conflict might actually help resolve it

The Israeli-Hamas conflict, with its evocative images of human suffering, has engaged the hearts and minds of people the world over. Indeed, the death of any innocent — Israeli or Palestinian — is a tragedy, and no one can fail to be moved by the human suffering and the humanitarian crisis in Gaza.

But the immediate cessation of violence that was declared over the weekend — and that has so far held — may not endure. If we want to prevent further tragedies, it is important to go beyond the "fog of war" — to go behind the daily headlines that cloud understanding and the cliches (the "cycle of violence") that corrupt it — and ask some fundamental questions about the root causes of this war and the basis for its resolution.

1 Do you agree that Israel, like any other state, has the right to live in peace and security, free from any threats or acts of force?

2 Are you aware that Hamas has launched over 8,000 missiles, rockets and mortars from behind civilian areas, deliberately targeting and terrorizing the Israeli civilian population these last three years, constituting an armed attack prohibited by the UN Charter? Are you aware that despite a six-month truce, Hamas launched close to 3,000 armed attacks in 2008 alone?

3 Do you agree that Israel — like any other state — has an obligation to protect its citizens, and a right to selfdefence against armed attack as set forth in Article 51 of the UN Charter?

As then-U.S. secretary of state Condoleezza Rice put it to the UN Security Council, echoing the words of both U.S. President Barack Obama and German Chancellor Angela Merkel: "The situation before the current events in Gaza was clearly not sustainable. Hundreds of thousands of Israelis lived under the daily threat of rocket attack, and frankly, no country, none of our countries, would have been willing to tolerate such a circumstance."

4 Do you agree that Israel's exercise of self-defence must comport with the principles of international humanitarian law, including the principle of proportionality and the prohibition against the infliction of unnecessary suffering?

5 Do you agree that Palestinians in Gaza have the same right as Israelis to live in peace and security? Are you aware of the domestic repression by Hamas of Palestinian rights in Gaza, including converting the civilian infrastructure to a weapons depot and exploiting the civilian population as human shields, as is now being observed even in the Arab press?

6 Do you agree that the ceasefire must be durable and sustaining to protect the peace and security of both Israelis and Palestinians?

If so, then let us look deeper at what this conflict is truly about.

7 Are you aware that the border crossings — between Egypt and Gaza, and between Gaza and Israel — have been used to smuggle terrorists, weapons, munitions and contraband, when they should be open instead for the movement of people and trade, as set forth in the 2005 Israeli-Palestinian Agreement on Movement and Access?

8 Are you aware that Hamas is designated a terrorist entity by Canada, the United States and the European Union, and that UN Security Council resolutions require Palestinian governing authorities to deny safe havens to terrorists?

9 Are you aware that the Hamas charter calls for the destruction of Israel and the killing of Jews wherever they might be?

10 Are you aware that this genocidal ideology is shared not only by Hamas but also by Iran and its proxy immediately north of Israel, Hezbollah. Did you know that Iran is training, financing, supplying and instigating terrorist action by Hamas and Hezbollah to carry out this existential threat to Israel?

11 Are you aware that Hamas — not only during the present hostilities, but before them, too — has propagated a state-sanctioned culture of hate, in the mosques, in the schools, in the broadcasting system and in the summer camps and training camps, which teaches that Jews are inherently evil, a cancer, responsible for all the evils of the world, the sons of apes and pigs and the defilers of Islam?

12 Do you agree that such statements promote hatred and contempt for Jews, and constitute an obstacle to peace?
The next generation of Palestinians must be one that is capable of keeping the peace with Israel. It is in the interests of neither Israelis nor Palestinians themselves to perpetuate this false "conflict of civilizations" — and yet perpetual conflict is exactly what Hamas, by its own acknowledgment, wants, until Israel's demise.
So then, a final question:

13 Do you agree that a comprehensive and enduring ceasefire must include: the reaffirmation — as a bottom-line commitment, as President Obama has put it — of Israel's right to live in peace; the cessation of all acts of terror and violence against Israeli civilians, the casus belli of these hostilities; the withdrawal of Israel from Gaza; the establishment of an international protection and stabilization force to enforce the ceasefire and protect against smuggling and the manufacture of weapons; the deployment of a massive humanitarian undertaking to ensure assistance reaches those in need; the opening of border crossings; the initiation of a comprehensive program for the reconstruction of Gaza and the rehabilitation of its citizens; and the freeing of Palestinian society from the cynical and oppressive culture of hate and incitement fuelled by Hamas?

I close on a personal note. I write not only as a law professor and MP, but as one who has family in Israel and friends in Palestine, and who has lived and worked in the region and been engaged in the struggle for peace for more than 35 years.

The overriding truth of these past 35 years for me has always been clear and remains the same. I will stand with those who support the right of peoples in the Middle East — Israelis and Palestinians alike — to live in peace and security, free from any threats or acts of force, a cornerstone of UN principle and Canadian foreign policy; and I will oppose all those, like Hamas and its patron Iran, who seek the destruction of any people or state in violation of the UN Charter and all civilized norms.

Irwin Cotler is professor of law (on leave) at McGill University, the Opposition Critic for Human Rights and the MP for Mount Royal. He has written extensively on the Middle East.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 09:53 AM

Gazan doctor says death toll inflated


Physician at Gaza's Shifa Hospital tells Italian newspaper number of dead in Israeli offensive 'stands at no more than 500 or 600, most of them youths recruited to Hamas' ranks'. Senior Palestinian Health Ministry official denies claims, IDF estimate on 1,200 casualties in Strip remains unchanged

What really is behind the numbers reported on the number of civilian casualties in the Gaza Strip? Italian newspaper Corriere Della Sera reported Thursday that a doctor working in Gaza's Shifa Hospital claimed that Hamas has intentionally inflated the number of casualties resulting from Israel's Operation Cast Lead.

"The number of deceased stands at no more than 500 to 600. Most of them are youths between the ages of 17 to 23 who were recruited to the ranks of Hamas, who sent them to the slaughter," according to the newspaper article.

The doctor wished to remain unidentified, out of fear for his life.

A senior Palestinian Health Ministry official later denied the claims, and the Israel Defense Forces' estimate on the number of casualties in Gaza has also remained unchanged.

Despite the claims, the IDF stood behind its estimate that between 1,100 to 1,200 people were killed in the Strip during the fighting, more than two-thirds of them Hamas members.

The army initially believed that the number of civilian casualties was higher, as many Hamas men walked outside their houses dressed in civilian clothes, leaving their weapons at home.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 09:54 AM

more...


Dr. Moaiya Hassanain, who is in change of the emergency department at the Palestinian Health Ministry in Gaza, denied the figures presented by the Italian paper.

Hassanain told Ynet that the Palestinian figures were issued cautiously, without any political considerations, and that several casualties may not have been reported as their bodies are still under the rubble or have not been handed over to the rescue forces and authorized medical officials.

'Mostly armed teenagers'
A Tal al-Hawa resident told the newspaper's reporter, "Armed Hamas men sought out a good position for provoking the Israelis. There were mostly teenagers, aged 16 or 17, and armed. They couldn't do a thing against a tank or a jet. They knew they are much weaker, but they fired at our houses so that they could blame Israel for war crimes."

The reporter for the Italian newspaper also quoted reporters in the Strip who told of Hamas' exaggerated figures, "We have already said to Hamas commanders – why do you insist on inflating the number of victims?"

These same reporters mentioned that the truth that will come out is likely to be similar to what occurred in Operation Defensive Shield in Jenin. "Then, there was first talk of 1,500 deaths. But then it turned out that there were only 54, 45 of which were armed men," the Palestinian reporters told the Italian newspaper.

These new figures must be treated with caution especially in light of the fact that various official sources in the Gaza Strip, including United Nations and Red Cross officials, have reported that more than 1,300 people were killed and some 5,000 wounded during the three weeks of fighting in the coastal strip. Palestinian sources claim that three-quarters of the dead were unarmed civilians.

Hamas, while boasting on having Israeli soldiers by the dozens, a number that has proven to be exaggerated, claimed that no more than 48 of its members were killed during the Israeli offensive. According to IDF figures, Hamas lost hundreds of fighters from its ranks.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 09:54 AM

Barry,

You are way off base in your perception of what is, and has been happening, in Gaza, Israel and in the West Bank because you have only looked at it from one side and challenged little or nothing of the information that you have been given in support of your own point of view.

A cursory investigation of events and timelines clearly demonstrates that border crossings are closed in response to rocket and mortar attacks Barry not the other way about as you state in your post.

Where is it stated that the Israeli Government want the Arabs of Palestine to leave Gaza, or the West Bank for that matter? Or is that just an invention of your own Barry?? If so, all the evidence seems to be against it, Israel having withdrawn from Gaza completely in September 2005 and leaving the area to the Palestinians under their own governance. Can you also explain why when the Israelis withdrew from Gaza the Arab Bedouin population of Gaza opted to leave and go to Israel rather than remain in Gaza??

So you believe that "attempted extermination" is being practiced by the Israeli's. OK so let's challenge that belief Barry:

•        Has the Arab population in Gaza, Israel and the West bank grown since 1948?? How does that compare to the growth in the Jewish population of Israel?? The answers to those questions in turn Barry are as follows – The Arab populations have grown steadily and consistantly – The increase in the Jewish population is roughly the same as that of the Arab population but if anything slightly less. Not a very good indicator of a determined programme on the part of the Israelis at "attempted extermination" of Palestinian Arabs.

•        If as you contend Barry that the Israelis are attempting the extermination of the Palestinians, why did they not pursue this attempted extermination when they (The Israelis) had full control of Gaza and the West Bank between 1967 and 1994?? Why wait until now??

•        On 12th September, 2005 the Israeli cabinet formally declared an end to Israeli military rule in the Gaza Strip. To avoid any allegation that it was still in occupation of any part of the Gaza Strip, Israel also withdrew from the Philadelphi Route, which is a narrow strip adjacent to the Strip's border with Egypt, after Egypt's agreement to secure its side of the border. Under the Oslo Accords the Philadelphi Route was to remain under Israeli control to prevent the smuggling of materials (such as ammunition) and people across the border with Egypt. With Egypt agreeing to patrol its side of the border, it was hoped that the objective would be achieved. We now know of course that no control was maintained, the border between Egypt and Gaza remains the principal route for the smuggling of arms, explosives and rockets into Gaza.

•        The PA rule of the Gaza Strip and West Bank under leadership of Arafat suffered from serious mismanagement and corruption. Exorbitant bribes were demanded for allowing goods to pass in and out of the Gaza Strip. These bribes are still paid today to Hamas who control what passes through the tunnels from Egypt – It's their main source of income. So it is not simply down to the Israelis "blockading" Gaza, never was, and humanitarian supplies have always been allowed through Israeli check points.

•        Explain the difference between the Israeli approach to the West Bank and to Gaza if there is a concerted attempt at extermination of the Palestinians on the part of the Israelis? The main difference that I can see is that the PA and Fatah in the West Bank have made it known that they are prepared to negotiate towards a permanent peace, whereas Hamas in Gaza are only prepared to negotiate temporary cease-fires and still hold to the declared goals of their Charter – the destruction of Israel and her people.

•        Over the past four weeks Barry how many "Palestinians" were killed in the West Bank or in Southern Lebanon?? None wasn't it Barry, now I wonder why not if as you say this campaign of "attempted extermination" is in place.

•        Gaza has a population of approximately 1.4 million. After a three week campaign of "attempted extermination" as you put it the casualty figures as reported stand at 0.09% of the population killed and 0.36% of the population injured. Are the IDF and the Israeli Authorities really that inefficient when it comes to "exterminating" people Barry?? Figures were so low Barry because the Israeli response to over seven years of constant bombardment was measured, by and large careful, and proportional. Reporters allowed into Gaza have remarked on the precision of IDF strikes.

•        Ruination of homes – 4000 homes destroyed. How many of those did Hamas choose to fight over Barry?? How many of those were booby-trapped Barry?? Even with those factors ignored considering a population as large as that of Gaza the number of properties destroyed seems slight. Collateral damage has left 50,000 homeless, which is 3.56% of the total population – Hardly the ruination of a people Barry, particularly considering that nobody would have died, nobody would have had their homes destroyed, nobody would have been rendered homeless, if no-one had attacked Israel from inside the Gaza Strip in the first place. If you doubt that Barry I'll ask you again - Over the past four weeks, how many "Palestinians" were killed by Israeli forces in the West Bank or in Southern Lebanon? How many attacks were mounted on Israel from inside the West Bank or from Southern Lebanon? Answer NONE.

We will now see what Hamas in Gaza will do:

•        Rebuild Gaza and its civil infrastructure

•        Rearm

I believe that they are already on record stating the latter as their priority. As reported by CNN this morning there are signs that the people of Gaza are coming to the realisation that it has been solely the activities of Hamas that has caused their suffering – Hopefully that will be evident in the results of the next election, if Hamas decide to hold any.

This next part of your post is utterly ridiculous:

"Those who weren't killed will in many cases die from a lack of resources, medical attention, injuries that have gone untreated, disease that will follow the unsanitary conditions that come with the destruction of Gaza."

Here you are trying to tell us that a large proportion on the 1.4 million people living in Gaza are about to die in the aftermath of an armed three week incursion by the IDF in which 1300 people died. Your argument doesn't really stand up does it??

This is another instance where you defy logic, rationality and the truth:

"It's not war when a civilian population is under blockade, lockdown, restriction of goods, food & medical supplies & then is attacked by another nations military might & with the force that's uncalled for."

Why is the civilian population under blockade and "lockdown", Barry? – Because their elected representatives have chosen to launch attacks against civilian centres of population in Israel from inside Gaza. Casualties have been slight, no thanks to Hamas, because the Israeli authorities have set up an early warning system and built shelters for their citizens. These attacks have been a constant feature of life for the civilian population of southern Israel now for seven years, one third of schoolchildren of Sderot are suffering from PTSD.

OK Baz what would you have done in response to these attacks??

- Kept all the crossings open so that Hamas could rearm unhindered??

- Kept all the crossings open so that Hamas could increase its chances of slipping a suicide bomber through into Israel??

- Kept all the crossings open so that Hamas could get a car bomb through into Israel??

- Kept all the crossings open so that you present Hamas with greater opportunity to abduct and kidnap more of your citizens??

Or do you deny that any of that has taken place over the last twenty years?? I'd be interested in hearing your answer, but I don't think I'll get one that involves any original thought. Especially from someone who believes that fighting in self-defence in response to attacks on ones civilian population is "unjust" if it is practiced by Israelis but perfectly acceptable and laudable if practiced by Arabs.

IF "subjugation" and "annihilation" of the Palestinian people were the goals of the Israelis Barry, then that would have been accomplished a long, long time ago. The truth is of course that that has never EVER been the aim of the Israelis, but precisely those aims are clearly detailed in the Charter of Hamas.

Unfortunately I have to agree with John In Kansas, the cease-fire will hold until Hamas once again thinks that it has built up enough strength to attack again, resupplied by Iran. I take it Barry that you do not doubt for one second that Hamas in Gaza and Hezbollah in Lebanon are backed, financed and supplied by Iran??

When this comes and if this runs down the same track as before, once again Hamas will hide amongst the civilian population of Gaza and it will be they who'll bear the brunt and pay the price for absolutely no gain. But, you never know the next time they might have acquired some of that "Plague" weaponry that Al-Qaeda were experimenting with in Algeria, or maybe by that time Iran will have manufactured enough enriched uranium to supply Hamas with something with a bit more bang for their bucks. Perhaps that is what many on this forum would like to see for Israel, but when faced with such potential threats, made more likely by events elsewhere, "proportionality" in response goes out the window and risk assessment and survival become all.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 10:16 AM

After reading Irwin Cotler's article, above...I thought I'd best take my words out of the Taleban thread, where I put them yesterday, and put them where they belong, (with the Taleban references removed.) Prof. Cotler puts it far more eloquently, but somehow I think we'd agree on all those points he's raised. Thank you C. Ham for posting it. (with apologies for my incorrect spelling of Hamas)





>>>Hammas have chosen, deliberately to store their weapons, and to hide out, amongst their people.   What bloody cowards!

Yasser Arafat grinned his way through life, recruiting suicide bombers, and sipping supper in The White House.

Hundreds, probably thousands of Israelis have been killed during this war. They've been killed on buses just going to work, or when walking down the streets, when the cars blew up, or those who have packed themselves with bombs decided to blow themselves and everyone around them to smithereens.

You cannot reason with brain washed terrorists.   You also have to protect your own people. I may not agree with what is happening out there, but by heavens I can see why Israel has finally flipped and had enough!

Where are the leaders of Hammas when Israel targets the houses where they KNOW that weapons are being held? Are they out there apologising on their knees to their people, for being such snivelling, evil men, putting their weapons amongst their people? No, they're too damned busy deciding whose house they'll hide them in next!!! And you know why?

Because they KNOW that Israel will *have* to target those places where the weapons are held, to protect their own...and they also know that it will cause maximum horror amongst their own people and out here in the bigger world...And THAT is why they do it! Because they're inhuman b*stards who don't give a damn about anyone.

If you are honourable, then when battle occurs, you do ALL YOU CAN to ensure your own people are protected, you do NOT bloody well fill their houses with explosives, knowing the enemy will blast them to kingdom come, unless you are the most evil and emotionally empty killing machine there has ever been.

These people are murderers! They are low down unfeeling, uncaring scum...and they should be treated accordingly. They are war criminals, sick minded bigots who DARE to use their religion as an excuse for inhuman behaviour.

The Palestinian people themselves need to turn against Hammas and realise what their elected leaders are doing to them in the name of power. The Israelis need to stop, pull out and try to find another way, but I doubt there is another way, because leaders who are so willing to have their own people blown up, are not going to suddenly become the Israeli's friends...

And I hope that Yasser Arafat has finally had his murderer's smile wiped off his face, wherever his soul may now be, IF he ever had a soul, that is.<<<

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 10:34 AM

That looks very interesting BB! Any link to the article?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 10:42 AM

There's a lot of hate here directed at people on the other side of he world.

This is an appalling tragedy. It's never going to be solved by hating other people. Horrible things have been done by people on both sides in thgis conflict, most of the time by people who are probably decent enough human beings feeling they have no alternative, and justified by other people who are decent enough.

The people on the two sides in this conflict are very similar, and they have very similar motivations. It's a long drawn out civil war and they are the cruellest of all.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 10:48 AM

Nickhere,

It was on Ynet. I posted almost all of it- including the caveats and the IDF numbers.


As for your comment

"I don't think anyone (and Lord help me if I'm wrong, rolling my eyes) here has suggested Israel should be 'destroyed' or the people who live there slaughtered, which seems to be what you're suggesting with your 'right to exist' phrase. "

I do not accuse YOU- But I do point out that those who ARE stating it made no comment about the other situations that you have mentioned- ONLY Israel does not have the right they allow Russia, et al.

I use the term that others here have used:

Barry Finn
Date: 11 Jan 09 - 11:54 PM

Both sides will cut there noses off to spite their faces, then the world can look & laugh at how ugly both are. You may disagree & stand for one side or the other & make excuses for both till the cows come home but if the outside world does not demand an end neither deserves to exist.


From: Bobert
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 06:49 PM

Ya' know, Ake, if you asked me a month ago if I thought that Israel had a "right to exist" I'd have said, "Sure"...

With every passing day I am less and less "sure" that Israel has a right to exist...
Sorry, but I no longer believe that this Israel has earned the right to exist...


Sorry, but I no longer believe that this Israel has earned the right to exist...



From: Bobert
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 05:32 PM

....
..."How's that workin' for ya, Bubba???"

Well, it ain't and that's why I have finally figured out that Israel just might not ahve a ***right*** to exist... Rights are earned, not stolen...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 10:51 AM

Teribus, you speak of Hamas as a kind of ticking time bomb that will go off again soon, and I'd have to concur with you that in all probability that we haven't seen the end of it or the rockets.

But if we want to see the end of this 'phenomena' don't you think it's both reasonable and necessary to ask why Hamas manages to keep going on, keep getting new recruits and so on despite everything that's been thrown at it and Gazans in general? Iran may - or may not - be sending weapons but in any case there still needs to be willing hands to fire them at the other end.

Don't you think that it's time the root causes of such seething hatred are tackled - and it exists on both sides. No humans could do that to each other unless they were either brain dead or willing to see the other side as something less equally human.

If you want to disarm Hamas the best way is to convince the Palestinians that you're on their side, that you can and will help them rebuild their shattered lives. Convince them you're not their enemy and not out to destroy them. As you yourself say, most Israelis are highly suspicious and fearful of Hamas thanks to Hamas' well-publicised comments about Israel.

But what kind of message do you think Israelis are sending to Palestinians when they drive them out of their farms and houses and plant their own people therte instead, when they shoot rock-throwing children dead? When they allow Israeli colonists go around armed and harassing palestinians, shooting them dead occasionally? Don't you think that Gazans have relatives and friends living in the West Bank or do you think the two regions contain totally alien populations to each other? What message does it send when you drop white phosphorous, bombs etc., etc., etc., on the places where they live? Whether or not the intention was simply to kill Hamas militants (and I'm sorry to say but I simply don't believe that, it was way too gratuitous and over-the-top) what difference does that make to the people who can't escape this hell or get out of harm's way, or who are told to take safety in one building by the same people that send a bomb or missile moments later. To say the least, even assuming all this stuff about phone calls and texts is true, don't you think it kind of sends a very mixed message?


Anyone who seriously wants the people in that region to manage to get along without wiping EACH OTHER out will have to realise sooner or later that what we've seen over the last few weeks is not going to work. I think I already asked this, but what have Hamas rockets achieved? Have they brought peace and security to the region or just more hatred, fear and resentment? What makes you think Israel's bombs and missiles will bring happier times?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 10:52 AM

McGrath,

OK, I will admit I hate Hamas- for their stated intention to destroy Israel, and their repeated attacks on the civlian populations, not to mention their war crimes against the Gazan people.

I do not hate Palestinians: Those I know are decent people, and I feel that Abbas has shown that he is more intersted in peace than in causing death and destruction.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 10:55 AM

Thanks BB, I'll have a look on Ynet and see if I can find it. It'll be a chance for me to practise my Italian.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 11:02 AM

Ok, I've just tried looking for the article on Ynet and it appears I'll have to brush up on my Chinese as well as the whole page has loaded in said language. I'm not sure what I've done wrong but I daren't click on anything on that page in case I accidentally download the latest version of RAMf***er v.3 by mistake. Sorry to be a bother, but you wouldn't be able to make a blue clicky to the original article page, would you?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 11:14 AM

Thanks for the reply to my other post BB, I see some people did indeed comment negatively on the right to exist. Forgive my pedantry, but I still wonder what it actually means though. I wonder what 'not having a right to exist' would mean. Would it mean rubbing the lines off the map and / or redrawing them; Would it mean renaming a state; or would it mean killing everyone and physically destroying the state? The last sounds pretty horrible, and I'm not sure I like the first either unless there are absolutely sound sterling reasons for it. The second seems fairly pointless unless it achieves some greater good for all involved.

In Iraq's case it didn't mean rubbing the lines out - Iraq's borders are still there much as they were almost 100 years ago. But the regime has changed. Once it was a Baathist dictatorship, now it's a US muppet. Lots of Iraqis did die there too, and their country was destroyed. On the other hand Montenegro was literally 'wiped off the map' after WW1 though no one was even injured as a result. It simply disappeared off maps as it was absorbed into a makey-uppy state called Yugoslavia. 90 years later it popped up again like one of those Billy Divers or Tufted Ducks.

Just some philosophical musings.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 11:25 AM

Finkelstein on Gaza, interview on RT

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 11:36 AM

Extraordinary! When you navigate to that site from here, you see..... no video.

If you open it from another window..... you see a video!

Bloody gremlins!

here's the link, cut n' paste in your address bar:

http://www.russiatoday.com/guests/detail/2031

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: robomatic
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 11:36 AM

Joe:

Regarding your e-missive of 21 Jan 6:54 PM I hope you make it to Israel and have a good and safe trip. I've never been. I've met lots of Israelis over a long period of time, and I guess I'd mention a few things:

1) There was a period a few years back when an Israeli and a Palestinian in town (Anchorage) went into business together. It was a matter of more in common in a strange community. I don't know where it went, if it was succesful or not, but such things happen.

2) I met an American woman who'd moved to Israel, then divorced and moved back with her kids. She claimed she and many like her had gone out of her way to establish connections with Arab-Israelis, only to be spurned during one of the earlier Intifadas. She felt, rightly or wrongly, as if she'd been slapped in the face.

3) I am not disagreeing that you may have met a lot of Israelis with a 'racist' attitude, but did you meet Palestinians who were qualitatively different?

Having said that, I've also heard that there ARE racist attitudes in Israel, from one Jewish group to another.

As for your earlier e-missive, 21 January 3:36, I have been very impressed over the course of my life, that the US has taken on the issue of the Holocaust as it has. I think Americans, as our freshly sworn President has said, are a patchwork, and come from so many varied backgrounds with an assumed history of experiencing or fleeing persecution, that there is an almost instinctive reaction to line up with the perceived underdog. I know that's one of my reactions. As for the Holocaust being 'holy' (as in reaction to it, how we treat it) I share that sense, but it doesn't mean to me that it be left unexamined. Also, other American, if not human traits, are to be ignorant and to use whatever social tools may be handy to gain an advantage. By that I mean that humans are competitive, humans seek advantages, and that may mean going 'beyond the pale' in trying to get better jobs, better notice, a leg up on a suitor, anything. Some people will say things or imply things that we may find ghastly. We are all vulnerable to something, and we may all be callous as well. I had a boss who very perceptively said at a company meeting: "It is human nature to root out weakness." I had another boss who very nearly implied that one of my problems with a co-worker was that we were 'too alike'. The ONLY thing that was alike was our religion.

So not everyone who references Jews as Nazis may be believing their own words, though I agree it's a hell of an anti-semitic thing to say. They could also be powerfully or willfully ignorant, or they could be seeking an advantage and using words as a cudgel to win their point.

As to your dissatisfaction with Israeli governmental actions/ policies, I think you may be responding to current events disproportionately. I remember someone commenting on Israel versus the perception of Jews in America that: "Being stateless, Jews had a kind of freedom from responsibility, but, with a Jewish State in the world, Jews are now experiencing the kind of criticism that comes with a State taking actions to preserve itself". I'm not saying that all those actions are correct or should be perceived as 'nice'. I'm just saying that a nation acts like a nation and most definitely is not nice. Jews in America are learning that there's always going to be criticism of Israel, and some of it may be justified. It goes, double meaning intended, with the territory.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 12:58 PM

"If I were a Palestinian at the right age, I would have joined one of the terrorist organizations" - Ehud Barak, in an interview in 1998.

That's a quote which should be pondered by people who try to paint Hamas and Al Fatah as somehow intrinsically different from the IDF. Or Irgun. Or the Stern Gang.

"...a nation acts like a nation and most definitely is not nice..." And so do people engaged infighting against that nation.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 01:10 PM

Nickhere-


Iran's Ahmadinejad: 'Not Feasible' for Israel to Exist
Thursday, January 15, 2009


File: Mahmoud Ahmadinejad
CAIRO, Egypt — A top Israeli envoy delivered his country's stance on a cease-fire agreement in Gaza to Egyptian mediators trying to seal a truce on Thursday. Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad president said the fighting showed Israel's continued existence in the region is "not feasible."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 01:19 PM

He's right in that it's not feasible for Israel to continue to exist as a "Jewish state". Israel's definition of "Jewish state" requires that Israel have a permanent Jewish majority. Ethnic cleansing is required for Israel to have a Jewish majority in the area that it now controls (including the parts that are currently under military occupation), and it requires ethnic cleansing to be able to maintain a Jewish majority in the part that is not under military occupation. A state that requires ongoing ethnic cleansing in order to exist is not sustainable in the long run.

It's time for Israel to go the way of South Africa, and complete the annexation of the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem, and give all of the people living within its borders the same exact rights.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 01:20 PM

Can't find the Italian source...


http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3660423,00.html


But I would not expect the BBC to report this, anyway- they have a vested interest in the higher numbers.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 01:25 PM

CarolC,

To be fair, why don't we insist that Israel give all those living within Israel the SAME rights as that group gives the Jews in the other Arab nations??


Since Jews are not allowed in Jordan, Saudi Arabia, etc, that would solve the problem to everyone's satisfaction. ( Unless you feel that Israel should have imposed on it rules that other nations do not.)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 01:40 PM

For one thing, because unlike Israel, our tax dollars aren't the means those governments are using in order to deny equal rights to their citizens. The fact that it is our money that makes that discrimination possible in Israel gives us the responsibility to pressure Israel to change how it treats the people who are under its control.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 01:40 PM

That would indeed be a very reasonable demand for Israel to put on the table at any negotiations, and one which it would be very much in the interests of Arab nations to accept.

Similarly a reciprocal right of return for Jews exiled from other Middle Eastern and Near Eastern countries, and Palestinians exiled from Israel, would cut the ground from under extremists on both sides.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 02:01 PM

and give all of the people living within its borders the same exact rights.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 02:09 PM

OK.


So when the Saudis allow Jews and Christians into Mecca, Israel will allow Moslims into Jeruselam.


Oh, I forgot- Israel ALREADY allows Moslims and Christians into Jeruselam.


And when Jordan allows Jews to settle there, Israel should allow Moslims to settle in Israel.



Oh, I forgot- Israel ALREADY allows Moslims to settle in Israel.


And when the Arab nations settle the 640,000 Moslims who fled Israel ( instead of staying as invited) Israel will settle the 820,000 Jews that were forced out of the Arab nations.


Oh, I forgot- Israel ALREADY settled the Jews from the Arab nations.



Waiting on the Arab nations now, it seems.....

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 02:12 PM

Gaza tunnels back in business

Writer Alfred De Montesquiou, Associated Press Writer – 2 hrs 2 mins ago AP –

Palestinians work on constructing new and repairing old smuggling tunnels, damaged during the Israeli …

BBC RAFAH, Gaza Strip – Hundreds of workers toiled in southern Gaza Thursday to repair dozens of tunnels dug under tents or fake greenhouses while smugglers brought in food and fuel just days after Israel ended a barrage of bombs and missiles aimed at cutting off the supply route from Egypt.

The renewed smuggling underscored how difficult it could be for the Israeli military to meet one of the key goals of its three-week offensive: preventing Hamas militants from bringing weapons into Gaza through the porous Egyptian border.

Some 1,285 Palestinians, most of them civilians, died in the Israeli operation, launched Dec. 27 to end Hamas' rocket fire on southern Israel and to cut the group's suspected arms route from Iran.

The military said it had destroyed 60 to 70 percent of the tunnels before Israel declared a cease-fire on Saturday. The smugglers in Rafah, a southern Gaza border town where nearly all smuggling tunnels are dug, told The Associated Press that the destruction was probably even higher.

"I'd say that only one out of 10 tunnels is still intact," said Abu Rahman, a tunnel manager who asked to be identified by his nickname because of his smuggling activities.

He and other smugglers estimated there were about 1,000 tunnels functioning in Rafah before Israel's offensive. Most were dug after Israel sealed off Gaza from the outside world following Hamas' takeover in June 2007.

While some tunnels were used to bring in weapons, many were used to circumvent the Israeli blockade and get basic goods into Gaza. The tunnels, about 15 yards deep and 1.5 yards high, run several hundred yards underneath the border.

Abu Rahman's own tunnel was quite seriously damaged, and 10 workers were shoveling underground to get it working again.

"It should take about a month, we're going about as fast as we can," he said.

With so many tunnels out of service, the laws of supply and demand have driven prices up, Abu Rahman said. Sacks of goods like potato chips, clothes or cigarettes that transferred for $40 each before the offensive could now go for as much as $400, he said.

Abu Wahda, another smuggler, said he'd been lucky.

"I fixed the damage in three days, we're functional since this morning," he said, overseeing the winch that hurled a large pack of potato chips 15 yards up from his tunnel.

While both traffickers insisted they had never considered bringing weapons for Hamas, Abu Bilal, another colleague repairing his own tunnel, said he wouldn't mind doing so.

"But frankly, the resistance never asks us to," he said. "I think they've got their own tunnels and don't want to pay us," he said.

As the men spoke, hundreds of workers could been seen working near a no-man's land with Egypt, busy fixing dozens of tunnels.

The buzz of generators filled the air, and one restaurant owner who had reopened his snack bar amid the digging said he expected at least 200 patrons on Thursday.

Clamping down on Hamas' smuggling was a key Israel demand to end its offensive. It says it got guarantees from Egypt, and pledges from the U.S. and Europe, to help prevent Hamas from rearming.

"Israel had no illusions whatsoever that the Hamas would voluntarily be giving up on the tunneling," said Israeli government spokesman Mark Regev. "We do believe, however, that the new situation that has been created will prevent Hamas from successfully replenishing its stores of Iranian missiles," he said.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 02:15 PM

Israel ALREADY allows Moslims to settle in Israel.

When has that ever happened? Some of them have been allowed to stay in their homeland, but when it comes to newcomers, or returning exiles, no way.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 02:20 PM

McGrath,

1. Define HOMELAND- the Brits in 1923 established Transjordan ( 77% of Mandate Palestine ) as the Arab/Moslim Homeland, and the remainder (23%, including the entire West Bank and Gaza) as the Jewish Homeland.

2. Show me where Moslims are NOT allowed to settle in Israel, please.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 02:31 PM

The Palestinians living in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem are living under Israeli control and they have no rights whatever. And they are not all Muslim. They are also Christians. To suggest that it is simply an issue of whether or not Muslims are allowed in Jerusalem is a straw man. However, to suggest that the Palestinians who are living in those areas should be denied any rights whatever because of what the governments of countries they have nothing whatever to do with are doing, just because they are all Muslims (even though they are not), or because they are all "Arabs" is an entirely racist thing to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 02:36 PM

CarolC and McGrath

The United States remains the largest single state donor to the Palestinian Authority. We have provided $562 million in total assistance in 2008, surpassing our pledged level of $555 million. This includes $264 million in project assistance through the United States Agency for International Development (USAID) and the State Department's Bureau of International Narcotics and Law Enforcement Affairs (INL); $150 million in direct budget support - the largest single tranche for funds provided to the Palestinian Authority by a single donor country; and $148 million in contributions to the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA).
Source: U.S. Department of State

Perhaps you'd like that aid cut off too?

Additionally, the US provides monetary aid directly to
Egypt
Jordan
Lebanon
Syria

Perhaps you'd like to cut off that aid too?

And provides aid indirectly to Saudi Arabia and other nations through purchase of oil, rather than using our own resources to mitigate that need.

Perhaps you'd like to cut off that aid too?

We know how those countries and most Islamic countries, treat women citizens (they count, don't they?), and Christian citizens, but they hardly need to treat their Jews at all...there are few, if any.

McGrath, CarolC and all you others who want to fold Israel back into a greater Palestine/Israel state...ain't happening, no way, no how, except by the total annihilation of Israel. [I can see the glee] History has shown that when Jews live among Arab majorities, their rights are curtailed, and they're subject to periodic Pogroms. When Arabs control Jewish Holy Sites, Jews have no access to them. While a large chunk of Israel citizenry is Moslem, Palestine doesn't even allow a Jewish neighborhood anywhere. Gee, that sounds fair to me!

If there is allowed to exist teens of Islamic countries throughout the Middle East and Africa, surely there can be one Jewish country.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 02:37 PM

To declare that the Jewish Homeland is required to have non-Jewish citizens when the Arab Homeland actually prohibits Jews from citizenship ( with no adverse comment by most here) seems a little more racist.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 02:43 PM

I definitely think we should tie our aid to all of those places based on their providing equal rights to their citizens. If they discriminate, we should withhold our financial support.

If Israel doesn't want to incorporate those areas that are under military occupation (I include Gaza in this, even though the occupation is enforced from the other side of the prison wall), then its only other two choices are to finish the ethnic cleansing of all of the remaining indigenous people of the region, or to withdraw to the pre 67 borders, or some other mutually agreeable set of borders, and to end its interference in the Palestinians' ability to function as an independent nation. Israel is not showing a willingness to allow the latter (its rhetoric notwithstanding), so I guess ethnic cleansing is the option they've decided to go with.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 02:46 PM

I should revise my last post a bit. I think that we should tie our aid to the willingness of those countries to not discriminate against anyone based on religion or ethnic group, regardless of whether or not they are citizens.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 02:54 PM

You keep on dancing, girl!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 03:01 PM

My posting history is consistent in this regard.

Ad hominem attacks are what people resort to when they've run out of legitimate arguments. It is necessary to paint the opponent as a bad person when one is trying to legitimize reprehensible and unsupportable policies.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 03:04 PM

Robomatic -
I met a number of Palestinians in Israel, and yes, I suppose they have their prejudices against the Israelis. Again, there's a striking comparison to the semi-hidden racism I saw in Detroit and Milwaukee in the 1950's and 1950's. The Palestinians were the "servant class," and they looked on Israelis as the oppressive "ruling class."

Palestinians can be very subservient and polite in the presence of Israelis, and then seethe with anger once the Israelis have left. And yes, they sometimes say things about Israelis that are not very nice. And yes, that anger is often directed at Israelis who are NOT oppressive.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 03:06 PM

Well, in my book when one write one thing, and changes it when one get called on it in order to change one's original meaning...I call that dancing. You can call it ad hominum.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 03:08 PM

When someone realizes that they didn't frame something in the best possible way, and they know that some people will not understand what is meant without revision, it is not a dance to clarify the point. It is an ad hominem to call such a revision a dance, however.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 03:15 PM

Europe has a far far worse record than Islamic countries when it comes to oppression and persecution of Jews, culminating in the Holocaust. The notion that there is an implacable enmity between Jews and Muslims is a false one.

The hope of a future in which the artificial antagonism between the sister religions has been swept away in Muslim countries as well as in Christian countries is perfectly reasonable.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 03:17 PM

I repeat:


Waiting on the Arab nations now, it seems.....

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 03:22 PM

BeardedBruce said: Israel ALREADY allows Moslims to settle in Israel.

McGrath of Harlow replied: When has that ever happened? Some of them have been allowed to stay in their homeland, but when it comes to newcomers, or returning exiles, no way.

CarolC said: I definitely think we should tie our aid to all of those places based on their providing equal rights to their citizens.

For many years, Israel has been providing sanctuary for Palestinian gays and lesbians, both Muslim and Christian, whose sexuality puts them at serious risk of being murdered, often as honor killings by their own families.

Being an "out" lesbian or gay, or even as suspected lesbian or gay, is tatamount to a death sentence in Palestinian society.

Israel recognizes this and provides shelter to gays and lesbians.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 03:28 PM

Good job, Israel, for not discriminating against gays and lesbians. Now, if Israel will extend its non-discrimination policies to those Palestinians who are not gays and lesbians, Israel will no longer be guilty of discrimination.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 03:31 PM

I fail to see why we are waiting on the Arab nations. What the governments of the Arab countries are doing has nothing whatever to do with the Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: DannyC
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 03:34 PM

Obama and Clinton just introduced George Mitchell as a special envoy to the Mideast.

In his remarks, the President stated that the ongoing state of hopeless for the people of Gaza is intolerable.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 03:41 PM

In his remarks, the President stated that the ongoing state of hopeless for the people of Gaza is intolerable.

The Israeli leaders all say that too.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: robomatic
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 03:43 PM

Joe:

You reminded me of something else I've heard. That American Jews when visiting Palestinians are treated differently from Israelis. Palestinians think of 'Americans' in a different niche and from the folks I talked to (some time ago) they were startled and reminded their Palestinian acquaintances they were Jews the response being: "Oh, but you are Americans".

On the other hand, the first Palestinian I met, also some time ago, was when I cooked dinner for him as the guest of a family I was cooking for. I got some face time with him after dinner, and, being interested in Arabic music I was trying to get him to explain some songs but I made a point of 'dropping the hint' so he knew I was Jewish. He couldn't resist telling me the hadith of the final war between Muslims and Jews when guess who gets finished off. I knew him on a friendly basis for years after that, but I never forgot that the Palestinians not only feel displaced, but they feel like displaced masters with a destiny. Ah, the power of religion!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 03:43 PM

And by the way, I didn't make the revision in my 22 Jan 09 - 02:46 PM after being called on what I said in the previous post. There are no responses between the post that was revised and the revision (check it out). Nobody called me on anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 03:44 PM

McGrath, there is some truth in what you say. Europe's record re the Jews has been abysmal...'has been' being the operative words. The record since the end of WWII has been rather good, with few exceptions. But if the Holocaust taught us anything, Jew and non-Jew, Jews need a safe haven in the land of their origins.

There has been no time in the Islamic world where Jews have been permitted full participation, up to and including Januray 22, 2009. This is not to say that Jews were never tolerated, nor that some Jews even attained high position in the Islamic world (11th & 12th centuries)...but they have never had anything near full rights of citizenship.

In pre-Israel Palestine this was true, and in Palestinian territories it remains true. I would reiterate the history of Arab riots towards Jews in the 19th and early 20th century, but you've already read about them at the 'Cat and other places, or not.

While this may not prove implacable enmity on the part of Muslim Arabs, it comes pretty damned close.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 03:57 PM

It is incorrect to say that the Palestinian territories don't allow Jews to become citizens. The non-Jewish Palestinians don't have citizenship to any country, so they are not in a position to grant citizenship to anyone else. There are, however, Jews living in the occupied territories who are treated no differently by the Palestinians than they treat each other.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 04:10 PM

Burning tires around the neck and being thrown off buildings???

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 04:13 PM

No, living as Palestinians in Palestinian villages, some of them married to Palestinians who are not allowed to enter Israel, and having little Jewish-Palestinian babies who are not allowed to enter Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 04:26 PM

"no differently by the Palestinians than they treat each other."

I had thought that you said this, and given the Hamas takeover of Gaza, the result of wich was hundreds of dead Fatah members...


Carol, there are MILLIONS of Moslims living in Israel. You point out the few Jews, married to Palestinians, and claim that this proves Israel is wrong???

You have never addressed the many Jews removed from the West Bank and other areas under Moslim control from 1948 until 1967- THEY have the right to move back, according to you ( previous comments) So why are the settlements wrong?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 04:32 PM

"Obama said that going forward, Hamas must end rocket fire at Israel, and Israel must "complete the withdrawal of its forces from Gaza." Although those steps were taken this week, low-level violence has marred the fragile cease-fire.

Obama said his administration will support a "credible" system of ending smuggling into Gaza.

He said he's "deeply concerned" by the loss of life among both Israelis and Palestinians, and by the suffering taking place in Gaza. He said his heart goes out to civilians who are going without food, water or medical care.

He said Gaza's borders should be opened to allow aid to come in, with "appropriate monitoring." "

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 04:37 PM

Changing the subject and twisting my words isn't going to work.

There are Jews who would like to go into Gaza, but the government of Israel will not permit them to do it. There are Jews living in the West Bank and East Jerusalem and they are not being discriminated against by the Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 04:38 PM

There are Moslim Arabs living in Israel and West Jerusalem and they are not being discriminated against by the Israelis, as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 04:39 PM

And when I say the government of Israel will not permit them to go into Gaza, I am not talking about Jews who want to build apartheid settlements. I'm talking about Jews who want to live in Palestinian villages with the Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 04:42 PM

The government of Israel is discriminating against all of the non-Jewish people in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem (as well as all non-Jewish people who do not currently have Israeli citizenship, but would like to). The government of Israel has total control over the lives of the people in those areas, and yet it does not allow them to have citizenship to any country, and it does not allow them to have any rights whatever.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 04:47 PM

I disagree with your assessment. They have rights, far in excess of the rights given Jews in the Arab nations.


And far greater than they had when Jordan had control of the West Bank, from 1948 until 1967. Although ANY of the refugees that wanted to, and were willing to renounce violence against Israel were given the chance to become Jordanian ( the Arab Palestinian Homeland ) citizens. Sort of like your saying that Jews who left can go back to Arab nations, and be treated far worse than Moslims are in Israel- they had the choice, so they have no further rights ( according to you)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 04:49 PM

However, my mention of the lack of discrimination against Jews in the occupied areas is to correct something that was said by someone in a previous post who said that Jews are not being given full rights of citizenship in the Palestinian occupied areas. That was the only purpose for my making that point.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 04:50 PM

The Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem have no rights whatever, and they have no citizenship to any country.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 05:07 PM

The Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem have no rights whatever, and they have no citizenship to any country.

????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 05:10 PM

They and every aspect of their lives are entirely controlled by the government of Israel, and in particular, the Israeli military. The Palestinians living in those areas do not have any rights under Israeli military rule. Because Israel is in control of those areas, the people in them do not even have the right of nationhood, and therefore they do not have citizenship to any country, including Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 05:11 PM

?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 05:15 PM

It happens to be the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 05:42 PM

Carol is correct ...East Jerusalem,the West Bank and Gaza are not part of Israel.They are occupied territory.Occupied by a military with bristling firepower and in the case of the West Bank occupied by recently arrived armed settlers often of the most extreme kind, who have been attacking Palestinian farmers and villagers.In addition, these settlers aided by the Israeli state have been stealing farmland,grubbing up olive groves and orchards and diverting scarce water supplies from the indiginous Palestinians.

The giant Apartheid Wall has been built on occupied land and in the process has cut off villages from neighbouring farmland and separated towns from outlying villages and divided families who now live on opposite sides of the wall.

The Apartheid Wall is of course guarded by soldiers who are quite likely to beat or shoot those who try to cross it or who demonstrate against it.The injured include many brave young Israelis who have protested alongside Palestinians against this monstrosity.

During the course of the occupation of the West Bank and East Jerusalem hundreds of thousands of Palestinians including women and children have been arrested and served time in prison.Many of these have been imprisoned without trial and there are widespread, well founded , allegations of torture and ill treatment of those imprisoned by the Israeli state.
ifor
ps... BB is incorrect when he says that Moslems arabs are not being discriminated against in Israel and West Jerusalem.
Also many Palestinians are christian and they too suffer discrimination as Palestinians in the land of their birth.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 06:22 PM

Regardless of the endless and cyclical finger-pointing, I am glad that Obama has officially brought George Mitchell into this... Had Bush not poo-pooed the plans presented by Mitchell back in '02 then there would have been no Iraqmire and there might very well be a two state situation in place today...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Jts
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 06:32 PM

>>There are Moslim Arabs living in Israel and West Jerusalem and they are not being discriminated against by the Israelis, as well.<<

I believe if you research this, you will find that they are discriminated against in a number of key ways. They do not have the same voting rights as Jews. They do not have the same rights to travel. That they cannot marry whomever they want. All of this in furtherance of Israel's "right to exist" as a "Jewish state" American democracy is predicated on ALL men being equal. Israel claims to be the only true democracy in the region, but by objective definition, their democracy is highly flawed.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 06:38 PM

Those serried ranks question marks John put up there are a bit strange. What Carol said there wasn't even controversial.   

Some people may think the lack of rights for Palestinians in the occupied and subjugated territories is a bad thing that can't be helped, some people may think it's a bad thing that could be helped, and there are probably some people who think it's a good thing.

But that they do lack the ordinary rights that people in other countries expect as a matter of course cannot seriously be denied.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 07:08 PM

Nickhere where do you live?? Do you have any neighbours?? If you do can you imagine that everybody living round you wants you dead that is what 'not having a right to exist' would mean.

Now having taken that aboard, consider this, that your neighbours have banded together and decided that the only way that they can carry on living as they do is if the completely destroy you, your property and all your kith and kin.

OK Nickhere, the ball is in your court, what's your next move?? By the bye you cannot just relocate yourself, that is not an option.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 07:29 PM

T, you got balls to ask Nick where he lives. the pot calling the kettle

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 07:39 PM

I live in an area with lots of houses. Some of my neighbours are very nice, others are not. I have learned which things bristle with my not-so-nice neighbours and try my very best not to rile them on those issues, even though some of the things they do cause me a degree of nuisance.

If they do something that I really cannot live with I first try and talk to them then as a last resort would refer the matter to the police / a solicitor.

I would not dream of kicking down their front door and opening up with an AK47. This would be looked on rather badly by the world at large, plus if I was unfortunate enough to kill any of them it is certain they would want revenge and would lie in wait for me, or my wife or other members of my family, to try and return the harm I'd inflicted on them. Then I'd have a choice of raising the stakes and killing a few more of them, and they would kill a few more of me.... and I think you can see where all that leads eventually.

Another thing i would not do: if the government decided to give me a home in this neighbourhood cause I didn't have one and couldn't afford one of my own (in fact I bought my house while not all of my neighbours had to buy theirs) I would be glad of the house, move in and make it as nice as possible for myself.

I would not, once again, kick in my neighbour's front door, have a look around, and seeing that the upstairs bedroom and living room were nice and spacious announce "I'm taking these" and then phone my extended family and say "right, you can move in whenever you want".

If my neighbours objected to this, I wouldn't call a few big friends of mine to come round and sort out my 'cheeky' neighbours (who do they dare think they are anyway, telling me I can't live in their house?)

Finally, if my neighbours and I got off to a very bad start and banded up on me, yes I would barricade my house, defend myself physically to the best of my ability and within the law if they intruded into my house, refer it to the authorities.

But I still would not move any of my large family into my neighbours houses and give them a free hand to rough up my neighbours whenever they want. That would only be adding fuel to the fire.

Now that's because I want to live in peace, and get on with my neighbours and my life.

I had a few run-ins with one or two families early days, but I found ways to get around these problems peaceably without resort to violence, though I am ashamed to say that there were nights when I lay awake thinking of how I could burn their cars or do some other harm to them without getting caught. So, yes, I do understand when people are driven to violence by the apparent hopelessness of a situation (on both sides). Can you imagine what would have happened had I taken that course? I'd be living in 'Baghdad' now, unable to leave my house for a day or two safe in the knowledge it wouldn't be burned down or broken into in my absence. Nowadays we manage to get along, though we will never be friends as such, at least the situation didn't escalate into something worse from which we would ALL suffer.

The key problem with your analysis (if I may) is that it posits Israel as a country just quietly minding its own business until, out of the blue, along came an Islamic spider, and sat down....

Of course we both know that's not a very accurate picture. Sure, I know all about 1948, 5 Arab armies etc., (though the phrase is misleading, conveying as it does an image of Mongol hordes, rather than the ramshackle and small outfits the arabs fielded). But even before that there was Irgun, Stern etc., and all the tit-for-tat leading up to 1948.

Now as I said above, even if you get off to a bad start with some of your neighbours as I did it is possible to row back from total disaster (e.g Egypt, Jordan). And deep down my neighbours know I'm here to stay. Once we found a way to all extricate ourselves while saving face (this is very important, and requires some generosity of spirit) they were happy enough to leave me be, and I, them. Of course it would require me not to interfere with them either - and not to try living in their house if I was not welcome.

(and the trouble started simply because I asked them not to do things that interfered with my quality of life, such as burning their rubbish nearby and the rubber-smoke smell fill my house if I inadvertantly left the windows open. Though we fell out over this, nonetheless because neither of us escalated the issue, I did notice that they started to burn it further away and eventually stop altogether. Prayer is also useful for achieving this end, for those of you out there who are believers, BTW).


Off to say a prayer for both sides for the mo'

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 07:44 PM

Of course Gazans have rights...their leaders exercised those rights to build a wonderful Edenlike paradise. Oh, that was the dream. They exercised those rights to harass nearby Israeli towns and kidnap Israeli soldiers. Then they cried foul when Israel retaliated. Maybe Hamas doesn't have the best interests of their citizenry--oh right, they're not citizens--of the commonalty of Gazans. Maybe they'd rather fight Israel than build a country.

I notice there is little belligerency towards Israel from the Fatah controlled West Bank. I also don't see IDF troops blowing up munitions stores and tunnels there. D'ya think maybe there's a reason Gaza has become a hell hole, while the West Bank is pretty calm? Is, maybe, there an example for Hamas and Gaza on the West Bank?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 07:57 PM

Teribus, just a quick last thought; my impression (and apologies if I'm wrong here) is that you are setting out from the viewpoint that Israel's Arab neighbours, let's say the palestinians in particular, simply cannot get on with with Israel. By the same token you also seem to suggest that the base reason for this is simply because they ARE palestinian; that something that no sane person can fathom is wrong with them, and genetically they are pre-disposed to carnage and hatred. Therefore the only solution is to 'contain' or destroy them.

Ummm. I think you can't fail to see what's wrong with that line of thinking and how doomed it is to failure.

MY point is rather that if Israel stopped stepping on Palestine's corns, they'd probably find palestinians to be fairly good neighbours, even if like my own neighbours, they'll never be bosom buddies.



BBRuce - thanks for the link, had a look at that, have bookmarked site, looks interesting. will see if I can find Italiain page as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 08:06 PM

John, maybe I'm wrong, but I think in the case of Fatah, there are two factors:

1) one of the reasons for Hamas' electoral success is that they were seen as far less corrupt than Fatah by the voters. Fatah has become more of something like a secondary policeman for Israel, and its members are probably content to get the money provided they are left to vegetate in peace. Hamas by contrast was seen as being at least more honest (which also makes me highly suspicious of attempts to portray Hamas as palestinians' own worst enemy rather than the nation that dropped tonnes of bombs and missiles on them)

2) A sense of hopeless despondency prevails in the West Bank. Palestinians - like the native Americans of long ago - see there is nothing they can do to stop the colonization and expropriation of their lands and homes by Israel and Israeli colonists. If they even try throwing rocks in frustration or anger they risk being shot dead in return, and colonists meanwhile are free to harass them however they wish with little or no recourse for the victims. So what you can't do anything about, you might as well accept, though that does not make it just.

But the key thing now is, where does the world go from here? How can this problem be resolved in a way to make as many people satisfied with the solution as possible, and in a fair and just way.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 08:46 PM

Thank you, Nickhere, for sharing your real life experiences... Many here just sit in front of their little screens and regurgitate the company fight song no matter how out of key it may be...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 09:29 PM

The Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem do not have any rights. Israel can and does control where they can live, or even whether or not they can have a place to live, how they can make their living (or prevent them from making a living), whether or not they can have water or other necessary utilities, whether or not they can see their families in the other territories, or even other parts of the same territories, whether or not they can fish in their own waters, whether or not they can leave the territories and go to other countries.

Israel can and does control whether or not they can receive medical care, go to university, marry Israelis and live with them in Israel, live with spouses that are from other parts of the occupied territories, import or export goods to or from other countries, whether or not they can have the taxes they collect from their own people. If the Palestinians democratically elect a party the Israelis don't like, the Israelis can and have completely blockaded them and prevented them from being able to carry on making a living, and prevented them from being able to bring the basic necessities of life into Gaza, so they do not have the right to vote for the party of their choice.

Under Israeli military rule, Palestinians do not have the right to life. The Israeli military can and does kill them for any reason or for no reason, can does humiliate and abuse them for any reason or no reason. Settlers in the West Bank and East Jerusalem can and do do the same, and none of the people who do these things are ever punished. Settlers in the West Bank can do whatever they want to Palestinians there without ever experiencing any consequences.

Israel can and does kidnap and imprison Palestinians for no reason and without any charges being made against them, and they can and do hold them for as long as they like. The Palestinians being held in Israeli prisons have no rights to any kind of due process.

The measure of whether or not someone has any rights is whether or not someone has any legal recourse if they are not treated as if they have rights. Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem do not have any legal recourse to correct these things. There are no codified rights that protect them from these violations by the Israeli government. There is nothing they can do to change these things because they are not recognized by the Israeli government as having rights.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 09:33 PM

I should mention that the above listed denials of Palestinians' rights by Israel happen in the West Bank and East Jerusalem as well as in Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 09:46 PM

I should clarify what I said about Israel controlling Palestinians' access to water. It's not Israel's water that they control Palestinians' access to, but the Palestinians' own water that Israel controls. There are many Palestinian families who don't even have enough water even to wash and do laundry because Israel strictly controls how much water they can use from the wells they've been using for generations (and sometimes not allowing them to use the wells at all), while nearby (Jewish-only) settlements are allowed to use the water for swimming pools and watering lawns.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,JTS
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 11:38 PM

John on the Sunset Coast,

The information you are receiving seems very one sided. Gaza is little more than a refugee camp. It certainly does not have the potential of being a paradise as long as Israel keeps bombing its infrastructure with munitions paid for with our tax money.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 12:40 AM

Nothing like having a slave uprising once & a while to get the blood flowing

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 02:24 AM

Nickhere your post of 22 Jan 09 - 07:39 PM misses the point I was trying to illustrate. You wanted to know what "not having a right to exist" meant. I'll go back to my illustration - your neighbours want you dead, they want to destroy you and all trace of you in the neighbourhood. It's got damn all to do with with "burning rubbish" and petty annoyance. Now if you are capable of imagining such a situation, then that is the situation Israel has found itself in for the last 60 years and its a situation that the Jews in Palestine have lived with for 89 years.

John in Kansas has laid it out perfectly, as with most things in life it comes down to selection, a matter of choice and learning by experience. In the case of the Arabs of Palestine they have consistantly shown poor judgement in which course of action to select and in their choice of leadership. After 60 years plus, I would have thought that experience would have caused them to rethink a few things in order that they might thrive and prosper.

As it stands it reminds me of the conversation that Picton reportedly had with Wellington at Waterloo as they watched D'Erlon's attack in column approach their troops formed in line:

"They come on in the same old way, so we will just have to beat them in the same old way"

When the cease-fires were announced a few days ago in Gaza there must have been quite a feeling of deva vu on both sides, and no doubt once Hamas has replenishedtheir supply of rockets the fighting will start again - their choice and the wrong one - once again.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Martin Harwood
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 03:40 AM

I found
this book very moving. It's diaries written by teenage christian Palestinian girls from the West Bank as part of a school English language project.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,hugo
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 04:39 AM

There will a big demonstration in support of Gaza tomorrow [saturday] in central London starting outside the BBC headquarters .

The demonstration will be calling for:
1 An end of the arms trade from the UK to Israel.
2 The bringing of war criminals to trial in an international court
3 Free Palestine!
for further info about the march details go to the Stop The War website.

In another development the BBC has apparently refused to allow an appeal for humanitarian relief for Gaza by to be broadcast on its networks.
hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Hugo
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 08:19 AM

Muhammad Humus,a Palestinian Human Rights activist, was arrested at gunpoint when Israeli police burst into his East Jerusalem apartment at gunpoint terrorising him and his children in doing so.
Mohammad was accused of stirring upobjections against the recent invasion of Gaza...as if Palestinians needed any stirring up.The television images of dead and maimed civilians and children did that job.
hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 09:39 AM

Here is an information source with a focus on efforts to build non-violent resistance among Palestinians Palestine News Network Independent Palestinian News Agency

As the last post reminded us, these efforts get a pretty hard time from the Israeli authorities. Not surprisingly, because non-violence is ultimately a much more formidable force for human rights than the kind of violent resistance which generates support for the far more lethal state violence.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 11:19 AM

Teribus, hmmmm. Maybe I did miss your point. My illustration of burning rubbish was just that, an illustration of how friction can develop among neighbours. I wasn't trying to suggest the issue in the Holy Land to be simply about burning rubbish.

You hardly think that on the estate where I live we routinely open fire on each other with automatic weapons and missiles? Nonetheless friction can and does arise and can get out of hand quickly if not justly nipped in the bud. It has required me on more than one occasion to bite my tongue and stay my hand... that's the price of peace, but it's worth it. Not too many miles from where I live there is in fact an area where the neighbours literally are killing each other over an insult traded in a disco almost ten years ago. I don't have the figures to hand but I estimate there have been about 10 murders so far about that particular thing. Is it really worth all that? Some people seem eager to resort to violence but once on the tiger it's much harder to get off.

What do you think of my point, as I put it idiomatically, about things improving if Israelis stopped stepping on palestinian corns?

I think Finkelstein put it well in his interview (see link above) - when asked if he supported Israel, he answered "I do not support states, I support principles". That seems an excellent starting point.

I am loyal to my own country and I defend it and its democratic program and history in debate when and if the case arises. But if tomorrow my government passed laws that made Jews (or Muslims) into second class citizens my support would dry up in a second. That would no longer be the country I 'signed up to'. I would become one of its harshest critics. Anything else is just blind and foolish obedience.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 11:22 AM

BTW I forgot to ask you, do you agree with me that if I moved my extended family into my neighbours' houses I would only be asking for trouble? Or do you think it would be an exemplary way to ease tensions?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 11:53 AM

Teribus, further to your post above, you mention that Jews in palestine have had to live with neighbours who want them dead and have been trying to do so for the last 89 years (or words to that effect).

Isn't it true that as you and others have mentioned here numerous times, jews have been living in the area for centuries. Why is it only that this has been happening over the last 89 years? Surely if Arabs had wanted to wipe the Jews out they could have done so anytime over the last few centuries when they were far more numerically and militarily stronger.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 12:35 PM

Do the maths Nickhere, 89 years ago takes you back to 1920 when Arabs quite unprovoked started attacking and killing Jewish settlers. In that first instance those settlers had legally purchased their land 40 years previously from the Ottomans, they had displaced no-one and robbed no-one of their land.

From that point forward Nickhere the Jews were periodically attacked and killed in various riots and pogroms by Palestinian Arabs on the pretext of deliberate lies told them by their leaders. This continued up until the Great Revolt of 1936 when the Jews started to fight back but only in retaliation for Arab attacks, from that point forward in any dust up between the two the Arabs always ended up coming off second best.

As to your point about "things improving if Israelis stopped stepping on palestinian corns?" As far as Hamas and Hezbollah are concerned it wouldn't make the slightest bit of difference, they are paid to carry out Iran's bidding, particularly Hamas. Once the Arabs of Palestine inside Gaza wake up to that fact the better it will be for them. No attacks either on or from the West Bank were there Nickhere?? No corns being stepped on there.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 12:47 PM

What happened 90 years ago ( and I already knew that takes me back to the 1920s)? Are you saying the Arabs suddenly went mad and decided to attack the Jews out of the blue when they bypassed the opportunity for the previous few hundred years?

The main - and perhaps only - difference I see between the 18th and 19th centuries and 1920s is the arrival of Zionism in the area. There doesn't seem to have been any problem previously. But by 1920 Arabs had been informed that an Israeli state would be created on the spot where they happened to be living and immigrants would be arriving (and were already arriving) to live there. But this wouldn't be like previous immigration where zionists had bought land to live on, the difference would be that a country was going to be created as well, and the Arabs living there I presume were faced with the choice of putting up or getting out. The state didn't some about until 1948 as it turned out, but it was clear from 1920 forward that that was the way things were going to be.

I don't agree with the attacks on Jews in and from that period (i.e I don't condone them) but I hope you might see it wasn't a case of little miss muffet either.

As for stepping on corns, no I don't think some people will change much (either in Hamas or the Israeli military or Knesset) and will always favour violence. But recruitment and support would dry up, achieving the same aim as the militarists can only hope for, and without the bloodshed.

Maybe you missed my post on the West Bank. No corns being stepped on? Really, that statement beggars belief. The 'peace' in the West Bank is the peace of a terrorized and cowed people (the palestinians, in case you were wondering), a peace enforced by the iron fist. It is the peace enforced by the school bully whom everyone has decided it's pointless to stand up to.

But I suppose you will continue to say black, and I, white about that.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 12:49 PM

You might also remember the hand of the British in this - remember the promises they made to the Arabs in return for support against the Ottomans? War over, they changed their minds and decided to give it to someone else instead.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 01:08 PM

"As far as Hamas and Hezbollah are concerned it wouldn't make the slightest bit of difference, they are paid to carry out Iran's bidding, particularly Hamas. Once the Arabs of Palestine inside Gaza wake up to that fact the better it will be for them"

This sentence confirms my suspicions that what happened over the last few weeks in Gaza was an act of collective punishment. You couldn't have stated more clearly that all Gaza is being held to account for the actions of Hamas.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 01:41 PM

Further to above - I see a few other issues as well: Lord Balfour promising the same thing to two different peoples, and Haj Amin, a trouble maker.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 02:55 PM

""Despite the claims, the IDF stood behind its estimate that between 1,100 to 1,200 people were killed in the Strip during the fighting, more than two-thirds of them Hamas members.

The army initially believed that the number of civilian casualties was higher, as many Hamas men walked outside their houses dressed in civilian clothes, leaving their weapons at home.""


That's really interesting, BBruce.

So Israeli soldiers deliberately fired on, and killed, unarmed men in civilian clothing, unidentifiable as Hamas supporters, let alone as Hamas fighters, and then, somehow were able to identify the political allegiance of the corpses.

Even Lewis Carroll couldn't have thought up a fantasy of that calibre.

If it weren't so bloody tragic, I'd be laughing for a month.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 03:09 PM

Some interesting news from the UN...

http://inthesenewtimes.com/2009/01/23/falk-likens-gaza-to-warsaw-ghetto/

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,hugo
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 06:13 PM

The London demonstration in support of Gaza starts at 2pm tomorrow [saturday] outside the BBC s headquarters .
hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 03:17 AM

This is worth reading. It's long, but very informative. It discusses the admissions of some of Israel's top leaders that the Israeli government and military purposely target civilians, and it also discusses Israel's violations of several ceasefire agreements, and Israel's real motives for its attacks on Gaza (this last one as well as the one before), and also on Lebanon...

http://www.chomsky.info/articles/20090119.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 03:21 AM

I love these guys...

http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com/

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 03:35 AM

If you visit Israel, you'll find Israelis to be pleasant, peaceable, gracious, fun-loving people - until somebody starts talking about Palestinians. The way Israelis talk about Palestinians is distressing. Certainly, they have good reason to fear terrorism, but they class all Palestinians as potential terrorists. I suppose that's a very human reaction, but that doesn't excuse their anti-Palestinian prejudice.

And thus, the impasse.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 03:59 AM

Reminisant of "Shock & Awe" = planned & intentional!!!!

Thanks Carole but it's nothing new & nothing some/most/few of US knew anyway but Norm does have a vry nice way of putting these terms in a way that's percise, insightful & coherent.
I'm just surprised that he hasn't become a hostage himself.

I mentioned above how this whole Israeli assult was liken to "that which we should not mention" & that Gaza is not far removed from the Warsaw Getto's prior to "what should not be mentioned".

Thanks Norm, I feel vindicated.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 05:00 AM

1. "But by 1920 Arabs had been informed that an Israeli state would be created on the spot where they happened to be living and immigrants would be arriving (and were already arriving) to live there."

Who "informed" the Arabs that an Israeli "State" would be created Nickhere?? Under the terms of the Sykes-Picot Agreement and the Balfour Declaration there was NEVER any intention of setting up an Israeli State. What there was supposed to be set up was a "Jewish Homeland" which is not a State by any stretch of the imagination.

2. "You might also remember the hand of the British in this - remember the promises they made to the Arabs in return for support against the Ottomans? War over, they changed their minds and decided to give it to someone else instead."

The British were split on the issue, the Government back in Britain and the Foreign Office were in favour of a Jewish Homeland being set up in Palestine. The Army who had the task of setting up the administration of the League of Nations Mandate were solidly against it, primarily because they could see the trouble it might cause. The Jewish settlers got the rough end of this in the early days of the Mandate when they quite rightly looked to the British to "protect" them against attacks by the Arabs and got little or no protection at all.

So Nickhere promises made to the Arabs, you consider that the British changed their minds?? Funny that because history records that of the original Mandate Territory, the British sectioned off a 77% chunk of it called Trans-Jordan and decreed that no-one but Arabs could settle there or own land there. This as historic record also shows was very successfull, under the auspices of the Mandate Trans-Jordan very quickly became an autonomous self governing kingdom - funny way the British have of breaking their word Nickhere.

3. "Further to above - I see a few other issues as well: Lord Balfour promising the same thing to two different peoples, and Haj Amin, a trouble maker."

Now what happened to the remaining 23% of the Mandate Territory now called Palestine is interesting. This was an area where anybody could settle, but that did not sit well with the Arabs who for the best part of sixty years had seen Jews arrive, buy what was considered to be useless wasteland (because that is all that the Ottomans would sell them) and transform it. Tosser Arafat's Uncle having looked east to Jordan decided that he wanted the same in Palestine, he wanted the Arabs to control it with him raking in the revenue. But things did not go well because within Palestine there were two Arab "tribes" who most definitely did not get along with one another and were opposed to Haj Amin being top dog. So they went to the rulers of Jordan and concocted the plan that as a result of the turmoil caused in Palestine by Haj Amin they would help but instead of Haj Amin ending up in charge the land would become part of Jordan with the rival tribe to haj Amin's becoming sort of district governors under the King of Jordan.

As a result of the anti Jewish riots the Peel Commission of 1937 decided that it was impossible for Jews and Arabs to live peacefully together and they proposed a solution involving two separate states. This idea was taken up by the UN in 1947 as the Mandate period was coming to an end. The Jews accepted this but the Arabs rejected it. In the war that followed Jordan got what it wanted, it invaded and annexed what is now called the West Bank and Egypt did the same with Gaza. This did not trouble the Israelis because under the two state solution they were the areas that were supposed to make up the Arab State anyway. Only trouble was that neither Jordan or Egypt handed those territories over to the "Palestinian Arabs", they kept them for themselves, shut the "Palestinian Arabs" up in camps and kept them in penury because that is what suited their agendas.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 05:53 AM

""That's really interesting, BBruce.

So Israeli soldiers deliberately fired on, and killed, unarmed men in civilian clothing, unidentifiable as Hamas supporters, let alone as Hamas fighters, and then, somehow were able to identify the political allegiance of the corpses.""

You've gone strangely silent , Bearded Bruce.

No comment on the above?

No convenient cut'n paste to show that all these civilians committed suicide by running in front of Israli firearms practice.

Or can we assume that there is SOME truth in the statement that Israelis WERE indiscriminately shooting civilians, and will, if the truce is not maintained, probably do the same again?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 11:24 AM

It was the women & children that mostly when taken to be the enemy, how else would one account for their high death/body counts?

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 12:56 PM

All fair points Teribus, and I concur with your analysis here. The Jordanians for example have never been much help to Palestinians from what I can see and I agree also that the areas annexed by Egypt and Jordan were not going to be handed over to the palestinians who lived there for an independent nation either.

I think it was Robert Fisk who said trying to get a handle on the history of the region is like trying to ride two bicycles at once. I have just finished reading a rather well written book by a guy called Efraim Karsh, detailing the 1948 war and events that led up to it. As is usually the case when I read something on the region I first have to read it, then analyze it for bias. As it happens this particular book leans a lot in the favour of Israel. For example the chronology lists attacks by Arabs on Jews but doesn't mention the dynamiting by Irgun of the King David Hotel in 1946, and there are other issues with the phrasing of things and choice of vocabulary.

It's very difficult to find any balanced writing on the region, some of the propaganda from the Arab side is laughably transparent.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 01:16 PM

Hi Joe, interesting comment on Israeli attitudes towards Palestinians. Irish people had a similar experience in the UK during the 70s and 80s in particular. Emigrants to the UK may remember the (now illegal) signs in B&Bs reading "NO blacks, no dogs, no Irish" Whenever I went there I was always a bit self-conscious of my accent and how I might be perceived by people. Only very occasionally did I encounter any overt racism however. Occasionally this manifested itself as a kind of slight but tangible withdrawal from your company, a kind of closed-offness. At other times it could be bureaucratic - as in when we were asked to sign the PTA (Prevention of Terrorism Act) paper full of nosy questions about who we were and where going etc., Other nationalities were not asked to sign this. Then you'd get comments about 'The Irish Problem" (as if we were the problem. No Irish = no problem). I'd occasionally then ask if the speaker considered the North to be part of the UK or Republic, the obvious answer, part of the UK. Then, it is a BRITISH problem, correct? Naturally I wouldn't have attempted to use such 'persuasive' arguments with a bunch of skinheads from Tottenham. I was also leery of discussing politics / the North with anyone in public in the UK, in case some 'concerned citizen' overheard my less-than-compliant opinions and got it into their heads to phone the police on the basis that anything other than total unconditional support for the official line was closet 'terrorism'. I wonder if anyt other Irish mudcatters have had similar experiences?

I hadn't been to the UK since around late 1995 and the next time I went back (in 98) I found "all changed, changed utterly" (quoting Yeats). With several years of the peace process behind us I found English people almost tripping over themselves to show they were our friends. It was almost unnerving and I remember thinking "My G**, it's become sexy to be Irish!"

I should add, for the benefit of English mudcatters that I never felt any enmity or resentment towards English people (unless they were Tottenham skinheads) but did so towards Thatcher et al, who could have found a solution to much of the trouble years ago had they not been so concerned with their careers. Oh, and to the rags known as Tabloids.

(The British Tabloids have a large measure of responsibility here as for years they whipped up anti-Irish racism with their editorials, articles and cartoons. A very good book on his subject is Liz Curtis' "Nothing But the Same Old Story - the roots of anti-Irish racism" Recommended reading)

Apologies for thread drift.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 04:11 PM

Interesting article here. Apparently Olmert has been bragging about pulling Washington's strings...

http://uk.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUKTRE50C20B20090113

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 07:10 PM

Interesting article Carol, the tail wagging the dog.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 07:21 PM

Now mind that about Spurs, Nick...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: number 6
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 11:17 PM

"The way Israelis talk about Palestinians is distressing. "

...... not all Israelis Joe.

In fact you'd be surprised that quite a few have not a 'distressing' or negative view on Palestinians.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 12:01 AM

A couple of other links worth checking out...

http://bdsmovement.net/

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/wordofmouth/2009/jan/23/israel-food-boycott-palestinians-gaza

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 12:09 AM

A couple more related to the last two...

http://www.whoprofits.org/

http://www.whoprofits.org/Company%20Info.php?id=655

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 06:56 AM

Well here's an interesting take on things from the Guardian today:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/25/gaza-hamas

Now as Hamas is saying:

"Senior Hamas officials are demanding that the conditions for reconciliation should include an end to negotiations with Israel and to the peace process, a unity agreement under a banner of "resistance", and continued Hamas control of Gaza"

Hey Goatfell - "end to negotiations with Israel AND THE PEACE PROCESS" - "unity agreement under a banner of "RESISTANCE" - That is what is demanded by HAMAS, please supply equivalent Israeli statements.

On "reconstruction" they say this - "If international institutions want to do rebuilding projects in Gaza, then that is fine - but they must do it under our supervision."

Now how much "reconstruction" did Hamas supervise previously - damn all as far I can make out - They did however purchase and smuggle in loads of explosives, weapons, ammunition and rockets.

While crying out for international aid, Hamas is said to be - "Sitting on huge cash reserves, Hamas has said that it will begin distributing emergency payments of €4,000 to those who have lost homes" - I wonder what happened, and how they came to be sitting on those vast reserves of cash? Rocket supply chain break down, I mean they're not cheap. Why wasn't all this cash put to good use in a way that it directly benefited the people of Gaza about three years ago??

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 09:51 AM

Israel cannot afford to wait around until the Arab neighbors gain the ability to put an end to their country. The message to Hamas was clear - they won't wait - and the surrounding Arab neighbors have taken notice. The rhetoric and obvious propaganda verbiage on websites regarding Gaza on all sides lately is expected and pathetic as usual. The tragedy of war is heartbreaking, and war leads often to more hate. If Hamas continues on the same path, it will only lead to more war,death and destruction. If you want peace - you need to state that PEACE is your goal. The anti-Israeli world opinion doesn't seem to want to understand that HAMAS's goal quite clearly stated is Israel's complete destruction. A ceasefire for Hamas is a temporary lull in it's war(resistance)with Israel. However Israel needs to do it's best to implement peace with Palestinians who want it. More respect for each as people is needed instead of incitement for hatred. As usual - tough negotiations, compromises, and real progress on the ground only will make it happen. Maybe the new U.S. administration can move this forward. The problem is and has been lack of support for the peace process from other Arab countries especially Syria, Iran, Lebanon. The anti peace forces will constantly be trying to derail the process on all sides as usual, likely dragging this on until the next crisis.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 12:13 PM

Maybe the greatest tragedy in all this is that Israel seems to feel compelled to act in such a way as to minimise the chances of using the time it has in order to bring about a settlement which will ensure its longterm survival.

At present Israel is strong enough to do more or less as it likes. It is very much better equipped than its opponents and it can rely on whatever support it needs from the USA. Its opponents are disorganised and relatively weak - so far as the Palestinians themselves are concerned, very weak indeed.   But these are circumstances which in the course of time almost certainly will change radically.

I think it's a mistake to concentrate exclusively on issues of justice and argue back and forth about historical rights and wrongs. There is right and wrong on both sides, and there is really not all that much point in weighing out which side has more of either right or wrong.

The important thing is for a way to be found in which the cycle of violence can be halted and reversed. And the people for whom that is most important is the present majority community in Israel - because if it continues like this into the future it is hard to see how it can avoid disaster, when in the course of time the balance of forces has changed.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 12:15 PM

To Arnie
The Palestinians could get peace quickly if they accept the role that Israel allocates to them which is one of surrender,dispersal,humiliation and occupation.

There again Israel could achieve peace along the following lines:

1 The recognition that the Palestinians in exile,and their descendents have the right of return to their homeland ..a homeland from which they were dispersed by terror so many years ago.

2 The withdrawal of Israeli occupying forces from the West Bank,Gaza, the Golan Heights and East Jerusalem.These areas are not part of Israel and are being occupied in defiance of UN resolutions.

3 An end to the siege of Gaza and the Israeli military flyovers,naval blockade and economic stranglehold.

The Palestinians are unlikely to accept continued humiliation and occupation and the chopping up of any homeland into tiny bantustans surrounded by Israel in all directions...and of course the chances of the various right wing extremist leaders of Israel agreeing to points 1, 2 and 3 above are non existent.

Of course the Palestinians want peace....but they also want justice ...the justice that has been denied them for the past six decades.

Pesonally I look forward to that dreadful politician Livni being arrested for war crimes when she visits Belgium next week.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 02:03 PM

Guest ifor's view on the things that Israel has to do to get "peace:

1 The recognition that the Palestinians in exile,and their descendents have the right of return to their homeland ..a homeland from which they were dispersed by terror so many years ago.

2 The withdrawal of Israeli occupying forces from the West Bank,Gaza, the Golan Heights and East Jerusalem.These areas are not part of Israel and are being occupied in defiance of UN resolutions.

3 An end to the siege of Gaza and the Israeli military flyovers,naval blockade and economic stranglehold.

I note that according to Guest ifor the Arabs of "Palestine" have to do nothing.

Guest ifor is correct of course Israel would get "Peace" if it followed his advice. Of course the "Peace" that Israel would get would be the sort of "Peace" that normally has the words "Rest In" before it.

To Guest ifor I would encourage him to look up what the qualifications are for a so called "Palestinian" to have "right of return" - It is absolutely laughable.

As for withdrawal of forces from the territories Guest ifor mentioned. Bitter experience has taught Israel that the only way they can do that is by extracting from certain parties acknowledgement and recognition of Israel's right to exist and the right of the citizens of Israel to live their lives free from attack and the threat of violence from their neighbours - So far Guest ifor that has worked with Egypt and its worked with Jordan.

An end to the "siege" of Gaza?? Why?? So that Hamas can import longer range rockets from Iran unhindered??

"Senior Hamas officials are demanding that the conditions for reconciliation (Between Hamas, Fatah and other Palestinian Groups) should include an end to negotiations with Israel and to the peace process, a unity agreement under a banner of "resistance", and continued Hamas control of Gaza"

As long as Hamas keep coming out with statements such as those, they will deserve everything they get and that applies in equal measure to those who vote for them - all decisions, courses of action and deeds done in life have consequences - had the Arabs of Palestine accepted what the UN offered in 1947 then they would have had everything that they say they are fighting for now and just think of the numer of lives that would not have been wasted.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 02:14 PM

"all decisions, courses of action and deeds done in life have consequences "

And the consequences of many of Israel's actions up to the present are liable to be disastrous. The same of course is true on the other side. The difference is that Israel is in a position where it has more options for changing the situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 03:04 PM

To Teribus
Should the Palestinians have the right to return to their homeland it would put them on a par with Jewish people across the world who also have the right of return to the state of Israel.

The end of the siege of Gaza would be a productive move because the mass murder and maiming of thousands of children is something that people of all creeds,colours and religions abhor!
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,ARNIE
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 03:07 PM

ifor
I believe all those things Israel has to do according to you, are on the table for peace negotiations in some form when they start up again- There are serious things for the Palestinians to do too , like working on a 2 State solution living in peace and security for each state - the conditions upon Israeli land withdrawals. Hamas won't accept that premise - so future peace with Hamas and the Palestinians living in Gaza at any rate is not looking too good right now. How to begin to negotiate with a bitter enemy - on each side - that's the big challenge. But it can be done at some point through compromise and will. (I'm really afraid that Hamas and it's fundamentalist Islamist / Jihadist agenda won't ever be able to want a compromise at all - that's not what they stand for. )
ifor - It is going to take 2 peoples with demands to make PEACE. That's how it's done. No one side will get everything they want, but the end goal is living without war and utter hatred. You don't need to like your enemies, but you can make PEACE with them - It has happened in this world before & I believe it will happen some day for the Palestinians and Israelis.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,hugo
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 03:15 PM

Around a 100 people have occupied the BBCs Scotland headoffice in protest at the BBC refusal to broadcast a Disaster Emergency for the people of Gaza.

This refusal has led to huge controversy in the UK with archbishops,political leaders and charities demanding the decision be rescinded.

The Scottish non violent sit in has been organised by the Scottish Stop The War Coalition.

Its UK president,Tony Benn, went on to the news yesterday and managed to read out the address of the Emergency Appeal and give the BBC a good ticking off at the same time.
The sit in is to continue until the decision is changed and the protestors are demanding a meeting with the BBC chairman!

In Gaza 50000 have been made homeless and thousands have been wounded in the ferocity of the Israeli invasion.Large tracts of the city have been destroyed and the Israelis are still refusing to allow cement or concrete into the city.In addition several hospitals have been partially destroyed and clinics blown up across the city.

hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 03:29 PM

Israel's refusal to allow humanitarian aid and the materials needed for reconstruction efforts to enter Gaza certainly lends support to the arguments being made in this article...

http://www.countercurrents.org/pappe280108.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 03:50 PM

I recall not long ago watching the government of Israel forcing Jews out of Gaza by actually dragging them out of their houses and putting them into cages made out of freight containers with one side cut out and enclosed with chain link fence. They were hoisted up by huge cranes, put on trucks and hauled away.

This was done as a "land for peace" good will effort to promote peace.

So how have the Palestinians shown appreciation? By launching rockets from Gaza into Israel.

Do the Palestinians want peace? If so, why not make peace with Israel like Jordan and Egypt did?

Evidently they do not want peace. They want all of the Jews, whom they descended from, dead and they engineer the death of their civilians for political purposes.

Somali Pirates are morally superior to these Palestinian "freedom fighters".

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 03:56 PM

That show of forcing the settlers out of Gaza was a self-serving act on the part of the Israeli government. It produced two intended results. It created exactly the kind of sentiment expressed above (those Gazans ought to show some gratitude), and it provided the government of Israel the ability to bomb indiscriminately in Gaza without having to worry about hitting settlers.

The fact is, it was not at all necessary for the government of Israel to remove those settlers (and I submit that they knew this full well). All they had to do was to withdraw the IDF to the other side of the wall and tell the settlers they could stay, but if they did, they were on their own. But had they done that, they wouldn't now be able to use those settlers as a way of drumming up support for their policies.

By the way, the blockade of Gaza started before Hamas started firing rockets into Israel, and is, in part, the reason they started doing that.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 04:40 PM

"the consequences of many of Israel's actions up to the present are liable to be disastrous. The same of course is true on the other side. The difference is that Israel is in a position where it has more options for changing the situation." - MGOH

Really Kevin:

"Senior Hamas officials are demanding that the conditions for reconciliation (Between Hamas, Fatah and other Palestinian Groups) should include an end to negotiations with Israel and to the peace process, a unity agreement under a banner of "resistance", and continued Hamas control of Gaza"

Now exactly what part of that report, where it states "end to negotiations with Israel and to the peace process" do you have difficulty in understanding??

And you have got the unmitigated gall to say that Israel has got more options for changing the situation.

There is no situation to change Kevin, what damn well needs doing is that Hamas require a radical change in attitude - That won't happen of course because where you, and those who think as you do, believe that Hamas exists to fight for justice and promote the cause of the Palestinian people fall over is that the sole reason that Hamas exists is to promote the foreign policy aims of Iran within the middle-east region. Used to be Iraq as well but the last change of management there stopped that particular flow of income and instructions.

Oh Guest ifor, while we are discussing parity of people flitting about the place what about the 820,000 Jews and their descendants right of return to the Arab nations who robbed them and deported then in 1948 after the Arabs lost their war. You know the one where their script read that they were going to be wading in the blood of the Jews and driving the Jewish pigs into the sea.

Oh hugo, I hope the names of all those protesters are available and I hope that BBC gets the message and puts on this benefit, and all the clowns who believe the Hamas line of BS contribute to the very best of their ability and beyond. And then in about 18 to 24 months time, when absolutely nothing has been done to improve the lot of all those 50,000 homeless Palestinians and the new and improved longer range rockets are falling on Israel centres of civilian population causing the IDF once more to go into Gaza and knock seven bells out of Hamas again, all the protesters can be contacted and they can be asked if they feel if it was all worthwhile. I would be interested in hearing their answers.

"By the way, the blockade of Gaza started before Hamas started firing rockets into Israel, and is, in part, the reason they started doing that." - CarolC

Care to give the timeline on that CarolC, because I think that you are wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 05:11 PM

Israel has the option of ceasing to occupy the West Bank and to blockade the Gaza strip. Those are significant cards to be able to play, and very significant changes to the situation.

And if Israel were to start calling for a right of return to other Middle Eastern countries for Jewish exiles, as a quid pro quo for a similar right for Palestinian exiles to return to what is now Israel...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 05:18 PM

Israel never relinquished control of Gaza's borders, air space, or coastline after it removed the settlers. It continued to have complete control of these things, and while it was not a total blockade, Israel did prevent the free movement of people and goods into and out of Gaza long before Hamas was elected, which created a severe strangulation of Gaza's economy, and prevented Gazans from being able to provide for their basic needs.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 05:23 PM

"That show of forcing the settlers out of Gaza was a self-serving act on the part of the Israeli government. It produced two intended results. It created exactly the kind of sentiment expressed above (those Gazans ought to show some gratitude), and it provided the government of Israel the ability to bomb indiscriminately in Gaza without having to worry about hitting settlers."

And exactly what results are the rocket attacks intended to produce?

What provided the Palestinians the ability or more appropriately, the justification to launch rockets indiscriminately into civilian populated ares of Israel?

What results is the fighting from populated areas in Gaza intended to produce.

The fact is Israel made a move toward peace and the Palestinians regard it as a weakness, a closer position for an attack.

The Palestinians can have peace if they want it but they choose war.

If this is not so, give me an example of any gestures toward peace ever made by Palestinians. Instead they teach their kids in school from day one to hate and kill Jews. On TV they have cartoons indoctrinating them into killing and suicide bombing. Instilling them with the idea that it is honorable to die fighting an killing Jews.

And this is the Intended results of that teaching. This is what they want. This is what they choose over peace.

No average Muslim is on their side but they choose to ignore it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 05:30 PM

Another point I want to make is that Israel is now puffing up Fatah in contrast to Hamas.
Yet what did Israel do to Arafat in his headquarters in Ramallah only a year or two ago.
They surrounded his office ..more or less blew it up with him inside ,killing several of his guards and kept him in there ,a sick old man ,like a dying dog on a lead.
When he eventually died inside the ruined and surrounded wreck of a building there were many Palestinians who believed he was poisoned by the Israelis.He certainly wasn't treated with any kind of respect .
If this is how they treated the "moderate" leader no wonder Hamas wants to unite the resistance under its leadership before negotiating with the Israelis.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 05:45 PM

SawZaw, You say the Palestinians can have peace if they want it, but they choose war. It's an argument that can be leaned both ways.

It seems to me that the only way Palestinians can obtain peace is if they accept the status quo or more, i.e they accept that Israel is in occupation of the West Bank and agree to accept even further exapnsion into their territory. That whatever nominal 'authority' the Palestinian Authority might have would only be over Palestinians (and not Israeli colonists in the West Bank), that they would accept the two-tier society created by Israel in the occupied territories such as having certain roads closed to palestinians, restrictions on their movement and trade and Israel being the final arbiter of every significant decision made.

Obviously the rockets etc., would have to stop, that goes without saying. But the Israeli army would continue to have free access to the West Bank, and the colonists the right to be armed. And that's not even mentioning Gaza.

Do you think this is an acceptable basis for peace?

The occupation of the West Bank and blockade / economic squeeze on Gaza are issues that I have yet to say any supporter of Israel say are objectionable policies, or concede that they might be contributing to the problem rather than the solution.

Teribus - you mentioned that (according to you) Hamas was powered by Iraq until Iraq was taken ot of the picture, and now Iran is behind it. Therefore Hamas was first the proxy of Iraq, and then Iran. But for this to be true it would have to mean Hamas is motivated by no ideology at all - the aims and attitudes of Iraq and Iran couldn't be more different - they were at war with each other for almost 10 years as you may remember.

A far more likely and believable scenario is that Hamas is willing to accept sponsorship from anyone who's willing to help it financially or militarily. It would suggest Hamas has an independent ideology and program of its own and is the stooge of neither Iraq nor Iran.

In the 1980s the IRA accepted a few tonnes of weapons from Muammar Ghaddafi (he was pissed off at the bombing of Tripoli and saw it as a way to get back at the US and UK). By no stretch of imagination could the IRA be considered as being Islamic fundamentalists (I'm fairly sure most IRA members were either atheists or agnostics) but they were willing o accept weapons from anyone - Russians, Yanks or Libyans. Yet they had an ideology and agenda all of their own and were not 'Moscow's arm in Britain' or any such nonsense, despite the claims of the tabloids at the time.

[None of this is by way of saying either Hamas or the IRA are right in what they do, just that calling Hamas Iran's stooge doesn't hold up to scrutiny).

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 05:49 PM

"Yet to say that ...to say" should read "Yet to SEE..." obviously (above)

Looking over the last post I guess it can be summed up as

Palestinian Arabs & Christians can have peace if they accept they are a dispossessed and conquered people, that Israel is now the master of their lives and that this is not going to change.

Now, do you think Israeli Jews would accept such terms?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 05:53 PM

Israel did not make a move toward peace. Israel, in fact, committed to a strategy that Israel, itself, considers an act of war. When other countries blockaded bodies of water that Israel considered important for its survival, it waged wars and bombing raids against the countries responsible for those blockades (killing civilians in the process), calling them an act of war.

I don't agree with Hamas' tactics of firing their rockets in such a way that they can kill civilians, but by Israel's definition of an "act of war", Gazans certainly had justification for aggressively responding to Israel's economic strangulation of Gaza as the act of war that it was and is.

I don't know what they hope to accomplish by firing rockets. But I don't know what other options they have in the face of being slowly starved by Israel, either.

Background on the economic effects of Israel's strangulation of Gaza here...

http://fora.tv/2008/10/14/Sara_Roy_Beyond_Occupation

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 06:18 PM

At this point, I also think it would be useful to point out the fact that Arab does not equal Muslim, and Muslim does not equal Arab. And Palestinian does not equal Muslim, either. There are Christian Arabs, Jewish Arabs, and Muslim Arabs. There are Christian Palestinians, and Muslim Palestinians (and also Jewish Palestinians, although they now choose to call themselves Israelis). There are also secular Arabs, and secular Palestinians. The Christian and secular Palestinians have participated in the Palestinian liberation movement along side of the Muslim participants, including participating in acts of suicide bombing, which is a practice that is not confined to Muslims, by any stretch of the imagination.

It is not, and it has never been, an conflict between Muslims and Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 11:45 PM

Well they are certainly not being starved of weapons and ammunition. Wouldn't it be even easier to obtain food?

Yes but they prefer war matériel for their "freedom fighters" over food for their people so they get what they want.

They don't care if their people are starving. All they want is to kill Jews. Simple, plain, unabashedly and they don't try to hide it yet some people can't see it.

If not, please explain why they indoctrinate their children with the kill the Jews mentality?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 12:17 AM

Most of the food that has been coming in to Gaza has been brought in through the tunnels, so it's not at all correct to say that they've only been bringing in weapons. But almost a million and a half people need a tremendous amount of food every day (far, far more food is needed than the amount of weapons that Hamas has been bringing in), so it simply is not possible for them to smuggle enough food in through the tunnels to feed their people. And of course, the Israeli military has destroyed most of the tunnels, so now there is no way for them to bring food in (further evidence of genocide).

And of course, they have to rely on handouts, since they are not able to buy necessities with money they have been able to earn through their own economy (because the government of Israel has destroyed their economy), and this also poses limits on their ability to provide food for their people.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 01:18 AM

South African Politician, Ronnie Kasrils

My hero, Naomi Klein

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 08:09 AM

Carole - your use of the word Genocide for this situation is a distortion and a blatant abuse of language for purposes of spewing hate propaganda. Look around the world and tell me what Genocide is. This is a conflict with terrible consequences, but it is not a Genocide.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 10:48 AM

To Arnie
Personally I would describe the attack as unbridled violence with genocidal tendencies by a mightily armed state against women,children and many,many other unarmed civilians.
The violence was commited by young soldiers , sailors and airmen They used F16 and Apache gunships armed with the latest missiles and bombs, white phospherous chemical bombs,cluster bombs,high explosives that demolished apartment blocks , mortar rounds,field artillery,merkova tanks,armoured bulldozers, high velocity rifles and machine guns.....hundreds of children were killed by this mass firepower and many more terribly wounded.
It surely adds up to war crimes...and international attorneys have drawn up documents naming 15 senior Israeli leaders including Livni,Barack and Olmert as having a great deal to answer for!
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 12:54 PM

How about "Attempted Extermination" Arnie, is that a little less tragic??

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 01:05 PM

I think a good argument for the use of the word "genocide" is made in the link in my 25 Jan 09 - 03:29 PM post. It's not hate or propaganda if it's true, and it does appear to be true.

Attempted extermination of a people is the only possible reason for refusing to allow food and other humanitarian aid into Gaza. Attempted extermination of a people is genocide.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 01:37 PM

If food isn't able to get in to a place that isn't able to produce enough food to feed the population won't take long before it does literally become a matter of genocide. Let us all hope that it doesn't come to that.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 01:50 PM

Barry & Ifor, This was a war in which Israel engaged Hamas and other militants head on from inside civilian areas- which evidently is the only way to confront them. I'm not a military guy in any way, but when you fight a war - you generally need to win over your enemy. Tragic as this whole thing is, it is my understanding this was Hamas's planned defense tactic knowing full well that civilians would be at high risk and folks like you would be granted your chance to cry out that word GENOCIDE to gain world sympathy. I guess it all worked to Hamas's advantage? You think Israel would drop leaflets and announce civilians to get out of these areas beforehand if they were attempting Genocide or extermination? What kind of logic is that?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 02:09 PM

Here's the UN's definition of genocide...

"any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group"

Israel's refusal to allow Gazans to leave the strip prior to bombing it indiscriminately (using weapons designed to kill large numbers of people indiscriminately), and its refusal to allow the people in Gaza to have access to food, water, fuel for heat, medical aid, and the materials needed to provide themselves with shelter (after their homes were destroyed by Israel) in the middle of winter, all support the use of the word genocide. I wouldn't say that Israel has already committed genocide. But I think it is probably accurate to say that Israel is in the process of committing a gradual kind of genocide, and that it will not stop until there are no Palestinians left in Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Stringsinger
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 02:21 PM

Carol, the big deal is Hamas was duly elected. It would be like if Democrats in the US were to rise up and destroy Republicans. (Many Republicans would like to commit genocide on Liberals.)

The thing to understand about Hamas in Gaza is that it represents poor and unlettered people there. Islamic extremism can only be lessened by education, not bombs.
In this way it is different from the West Bank which is a different tribe of Islamic Palestinians, perhaps more well-heeled but no less militant.

Arab Tribalism is the big problem in understanding Islam. Israel doesn't get this. They think of a monolithic boogey-man that wants to destroy Israel and that's extremist thinking.

Genocide was Hiroshima, Nagaski. Also contemporary Iraq. The so-called terrorists are
basically a euphemism for extremist Islamists.

The US doesn't get this about Afghanistan either with their Northern Alliance war-lords being supported. It's another quagmire like Iraq and will bleed the US dry.

The point is that in enemy posing, we don't see the people. We see false conceptions.

If Israel could get that the Gazans are poverty-stricken and starving, perhaps their humanity would allow them to see through the knee-jerk AIPAC policies that Bush fomented.

It's an old worn-out solution to problems that never works. It's called waging war.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 02:45 PM

No, actually, the difference between the West Bank, and Gaza hasn't got anything to do with the kind of people found in each place, and has nothing to do with the religious affiliations or practices of the people in either place. The difference is because of the different strategies that Israel is implementing in the two places. The goal is and has always been to get rid of all of the non-Jewish indigenous people who still remain in the areas that Israel wants for itself. Gradual ethnic cleansing works in the West bank (for now), but it isn't really possible in Gaza which is a tiny strip of land already enclosed behind a wall.

In the West Bank, the areas that are available for Palestinians to live in are still much larger than in Gaza, their numbers are greater, and there are Jewish settlements scattered all around the West Bank with the remaining Palestinian areas looking like holes in Swiss cheese, making it hard to bomb indiscriminately, so just gradually wiping them out, as is being done in Gaza isn't feasable at this time. In the West Bank, the method being used for clearing out the Palestinians has more to do with making their lives impossible to continue to live there so that they will leave on their own.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 02:48 PM

By the way, it should be noted that Hamas won the election in the West Bank as well as in Gaza. The reason Hamas is only in control in Gaza and not in the West Bank, is because Fatah was stronger in the West Bank, while Hamas is stronger in Gaza. When Fatah tried to stage its coup in all of the Palestinian areas, it only succeeded in the West Bank, but not in Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Barry at the library
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 03:11 PM

Arnie, the people of Gaza are not the enemy!

This is not a war, it is an invasion of a territory populated by civilians. When criminal activity occurs within a district one does not kill anyone living within that district, one finds another workable solution.

When a hostage situation takes place you do not shoot everyone, you do what's needed to get the innocent out of the situation without killing them & then try to aprehend the criminals

Drop leaflets & then close the borders & then bomb the shelters????

When dealing with terrorism the governments waging the violence are in most cases a military arm fighting against a group that has excepted to go to the extreme because they feel that they've run out of all other options including surrender. It is the responsibility of those waging war to try to understand basis & nature of the causes that are at the root of terrorism. Like the doctor who only treats the symptoms the cure will never come about unless the root causes are addressed. The US, England, Israel & a great many other nations only want to treat the symptoms & don't care to treat the root problems, it is in their best interests, only! When a subjagated people resist oppression violently we call it terrorism, they call it resistance. Unless you completely oppress & totally control a people they will not be defeated. If those people are left any glimmer of hope they will not be shackled, they will die. We found this to be true with slavery, they will turn to a better afterlife. So Israel is either practing extermination or slavery, IMHO they are not interested in keeping slaves, because they would treat the people of Gaza worst then anmals, which they do but they would not kill them.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 03:53 PM

Barry's quote:"This is not a war, it is an invasion of a territory populated by civilians. When criminal activity occurs within a district one does not kill anyone living within that district, one finds another workable solution.When a hostage situation takes place you do not shoot everyone, you do what's needed to get the innocent out of the situation without killing them & then try to aprehend the criminals"

I guess you know first hand what the Israeli army faced there and what occurred? I think not. Like they could have just went in there and gathered up all the rocket launcher guys and left? A piece of cake. And as if they have a criminal justice system to deal with their own militants? I've heard about Hamas's justice system - ask some Fatah members about that.

Hamas is Israel's enemy and all this is a war!This is not petty criminal stuff. You call it criminal activity when Hamas continually fired rockets into Israel? I think if a country did that to the United States, no doubt you would have a different way to describe that kind of thing.   Terrible things happen in war. War is crap. Hamas's agenda is all about war - nowhere is there an expression of a possible peace process towards Israel's existence. Gazans voted them in power and it this is what has come out of it. Hopefully one day everyone will vote for peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 07:17 PM

You call it criminal activity when Hamas continually fired rockets into Israel? I think if a country did that to the United States, no doubt you would have a different way to describe that kind of thing.

In fact the UK was continually bombed (including rockets fired at Downing St.) over a long period.

We didn't go out and bomb Belfast or Dublin into smithereens.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 07:22 PM

If Hamas is your the enemy why has so many civilians, children & women died? A wage is waged against an opposing army not a population of innocents like the one waged on the Ghetto's of Warsaw! If Cauban terrorist (not the Cauban military) fired rockets at the US we would be wrong to rain destruction on the civilians of Cuba. Get your head straight. Hamas was voted in because they stood against Israeli aggression! Israel is to blame for the popularity of Hamas, in the same way that Castro was the result of Batista & his support from the US.

Yes, I call Hamas a criminal but not near the degree of the nation of Israel. Hamas is no more a wing of arm of a government than the IRA or the JDL. To try & say Israel is at war with Hamas is insane. Hamas is not an army of any nation, they are a group of extremist fighting a terrorist, rouge nation.

"Like they could have just went in there and gathered up all the rocket launcher guys and left?"

Israel didn't try to do anything but roll in guns blazing, blasting & bulldozing whatever they encountered. Hospitals, schools, shelters, home, destroying communications, food & water supplies, sanitary facilities & killing civilians in need of shelter & safety, just as the Germans did as they rolled through Poland!
Israel has kept Gaza a Ghetto & we are seeing the a repeat of the reign of hell.

You don't have to tell me war is shit & you don't have to tell me war Terrible things happen in war. War is crap.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 07:30 PM

(""That's really interesting, BBruce.

So Israeli soldiers deliberately fired on, and killed, unarmed men in civilian clothing, unidentifiable as Hamas supporters, let alone as Hamas fighters, and then, somehow were able to identify the political allegiance of the corpses.""

You've gone strangely silent , Bearded Bruce.

No comment on the above?

No convenient cut'n paste to show that all these civilians committed suicide by running in front of Israli firearms practice.

Or can we assume that there is SOME truth in the statement that Israelis WERE indiscriminately shooting civilians, and will, if the truce is not maintained, probably do the same again?)


How very strange! The above was posted in answer to a post from bearded Bruce, who, prior to this, was the forum's most vociferous supporter of Israel's actions.

Not only did Bruce decide not to respond. He disappeared from this thread entirely when faced with the fact that he had totally destroyed his own argument.

Nobody else has bothered to take up the point, so I think it is worth repeating.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 07:36 PM

If I could just interfere for a moment..............

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 07:37 PM

And as the original poster I would like to claim the 800

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 11:52 PM

"so it's not at all correct to say that they've only been bringing in weapons."
Why bring in any weapons? Especially it people are starving?

"the Israeli military has destroyed most of the tunnels"
Maybe because they are being used to smuggle weapons. Another ploy by Hamas to put civilians at risk for their political purposes.

"But almost a million and a half people need a tremendous amount of food every day"
Was there a problem before Hamas started lobbing missles into Israel?

"not able to buy necessities with money they have been able to earn through their own economy"
How come they can get weapons but not food?

They destroy their own economy.

Why were the Palestinians kicked out of Jordan? How come Jordan has no beef with Israel?

There are people in Jordan involved in manufacturing things for Companies in Israel. Why doesn't Israel wreck Jordan's economy if that ie their purpose?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 12:04 AM

"any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group"

Sounds like this fellow in this official Hamas video Published on Hamas website in February 2006:

Adham Ahmad Hujyla Abu Jandal
Prepared before Suicide attack on December 7, 2004

watch video

    "My message to the loathed Jews is that there is no god but Allah [and] we will chase you everywhere! We are a nation that drinks blood, and we know that there is no blood better than the blood of Jews. We will not leave you alone until we have quenched our thirst with your blood, and our children's thirst with your blood. We will not leave until you leave the Muslim countries..."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 01:06 AM

I'm not allowed to copy/paste from other people's posts in my posts, so I'll just have to answer the questions and hopefully it will not be too difficult to figure out which questions I am answering with which comment.

Why shouldn't they have weapons? Everyone has a right to defend him or herself. Israel has been bombing and shooting the Palestinians in Gaza (and the West Bank) since before Hamas even existed. There is no reason why the Palestinians should be the only ones who are entirely defenseless.

If Israel is going to destroy the tunnels, they have an obligation under international law to allow food to enter Gaza through other means. They are not doing this.

Yes, there was a problem before Hamas started lobbing missles into Israel. That's part of the reason Hamas started lobbing missles into Israel.

As I said before, they can only bring so much food into Gaza through the tunnels. They don't have to bring in all that much material in order to have enough weapons to do what they have been doing. But bringing enough food into Gaza to feed almost a million and a half people every day through the tunnels is not feasible.

Israel destroyed Gaza's economy by maintaining a stranglehold on Gaza's borders, air space, and coastline. People can't even fish any more because Israel won't allow fishing boats to go where the fish are.

The Palestinians were not kicked out of Jordan. They have been living in the area that is now Israel for more than a thousand years. Jordan has no beef with Israel because that country conspired with Israel to carve up the land that was supposed to go to the Palestinians and divide it with Israel. And this is what happened.

Israel can't wreck Jordan's economy because Jordan is a sovereign state with control of its own borders, unlike Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 01:07 AM

I should correct this one...

"The Palestinians were not kicked out of Jordan. They have been living in the area that is now Israel and the Palestinian occupied areas for more than a thousand years.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 02:08 AM

. . . and the Jews have been there for thousands more.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 02:23 AM

No, that's not true. The Jews from that area are essentially the same people as the non-Jews from that area. They are the most closely related genetically to each other than to any other peoples in the world. The only real difference between the Jewish Palestinians (who now call themselves Israelis), and the Christian and Muslim (and secular) Palestinians, is that at some point in their families' history, some of them became Jews, some of them became Christians, and some of them became Muslims (and some became secular). But they all come from essentially the same genetic stock who have been in that area for thousands of years.

The European Jews in Israel, on the other hand, while their ancestors did live in that region centuries ago, they did live in other parts of the world for many centuries prior to returning to the Middle East. So while the indigenous Jewish Palestinians have an uninterrupted history in that region, the European Jews do not.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,hugo
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 03:09 AM

THE MYTHS OF ZIONISM
An excellent book about zionism is by the British, Jewish and socialist writer John Rose.

His "The Myths of Zionism " [Pluto Press 2004 ] does a good job in arguing that zionism is held together by a series of myths. A package of false notions which undermines its claims on the Jewish religion and Jewish history and its justification for the   aggressive political posturing in the land of Palestine.

The book is dedicated to the late Palestinian Jew, Tony Cliff [born in 1917 as Ygael Gluckstein ], who became a revolutionary socialist and a firm supporter of a free Palestine.
hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 03:55 AM

The reviews on the book's page in Amazon give some idea of what's in the book...

http://www.amazon.com/Myths-Zionism-John-Rose/dp/0745320554

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 04:12 AM

Here's the Gaza aid appeal video that the BBC refused to air...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/video/2009/jan/26/dec-gaza-appeal

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 08:58 AM

Arguing about the reasons this situation has come about is interesting enough. But the central point, regardless of those reasons, is that, if sufficient food is not allowed to get into a territory that cannot produce this food, and people within that territory are unable to leave, this will mean people dying in large numbers.

Maintaining a blockade that prevents food getting in, and prevents people getting out, would be an act of genocide. And that does at present appear to be the policy adopted by Israel, and colluded in by other countries.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 10:44 AM

The UN is now trying to declare that the basic right to food is a "Human Right". Hummm

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 12:24 PM

It has been noted on the 'Cat that Palestinians were not kicked out of Jordan. That is only partially true. There are Palestinians in Jordan, but Palestine militants, including Y. Arafat were expelled.

The Black September Movement was formed as a direct result of Arafat was expelled from Jordan, and Palestinians were expelled and/or left on their own following attacks by the Jordanian army. This was from sovereign Jordan proper, not from the West Bank area which Jordan no longer controlled

Black September Movement (noun)
A former Palestinian terrorist organization (now merged with Fatah Revolutionary Council) that assassinated the Prime Minister of Jordan and during the 1972 Olympic Games in Munich killed 11 Israeli athletes.
WordNet® 3.0, © 2006 by Princeton Univerty.

From various Wikipedia articles:

"In the late 1960s, the Fatah faction of the PLO had set up a state within a state, inside Jordan. Increasing numbers of armed, uniformed Palestinians set up checkpoints, collected taxes, and refused to travel with Jordanian license plates on their cars. In the southern zone, bordering on Israel, they demanded and seized autonomous control, rejecting the king's authority in Jordan. The aligned Palestinian organizations carried out a series of deadly attacks against Israel, from Jordanian territory. Guerrilla raids against Israel, were mounted from bases in the West Bank, Lebanon and Jordan. King Hussein who became increasingly devoted to the promotion of peace in the region, made various peaceful attempts to re-establish his authority in Jordan, attempting a seven-point agreement with the PLO in November of 1968, along with fostering peace between Israel and Egypt."

"The Jordanian army began plans to expel the Fedayeen and PLO. On the morning of September 16, [1970] Hussein declared martial law. On September 17, the military attack began. Patton tanks from the 60th armored brigade, accompanied by armored vehicles, entered Amman from all sides, and attacked the headquarters of the Palestinian organizations."

"The number of casualties in what resembled a civil war is estimated at tens of thousands. Though Palestinian civillians[sic] were killed in far greater numbers, both sides were involved in the intentional targeting of civilians. It was a turning point for Jordanian identity, as the kingdom embarked on the program of "Jordanization" of the society that relegated Palestinians to "outsider" status."

"Toward the end of March, after a Palestinian arms warehouse was discovered in Irbid, [a city in northern Jordan cotrolled by Palestinians] the Jordanian army placed a curfew on the city, arrested some of the Palestinian activists, and expelled others. The takeover of Irbid was completed at the beginning of April. Afterward, many senior members of the Palestinian organizations, who were aware of their weakness, began to withdraw from Amman as well."

Lebanon became home to more than 110,000 Palestinian refugees from their homes in present day Israel. The large influx of Palestinians from Jordan after "Black September" caused an imbalance within Lebanese society and democratic institutions.[1][2] By 1975, they numbered more than 300,000, effectively creating an unofficial state-within-a-state in Southern Lebanon. The PLO became a powerful force and played an important role in the Lebanese Civil War."

"Arafat set about building a "state-within-the-state" [As they had tried to do in Jordan, see above] in southern Lebanon, to create a secure base area for the PLO, headquartered in the Bekaa Valley and West Beirut. Gradually the Lebanese authorities were being pushed into irrelevancy."

"Ma'an (Arabic) reports that aArafat[sic] set about building a "state-within-the-state" in southern Lebanon, to create a secure base area for the PLO, headquartered in the Bekaa Valley and West Beirut. Gradually the Lebanese authorities were being pushed into irrelevancy. A series of articles being authored by longtime Arafat aide Marwan Kanafani in Egypt's Al Ahram will say that it was Yasir Arafat himself who created the Black September organization in 1970."

There may be some redundancy in the above, but I don't want anybody to think I am manipulating meaning by not using complete sentences, or merging sentences, thereby putting my own spin on it. My comments for clarification are in [].

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,HUGO
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 12:26 PM

The Website SOCIALIST UNITY carries an article with photographs about some 15 military and political Israeli leaders ,at varying levels of seniority, who have been named as being involved in war crimes in Gaza.
The article includes short biographies of these leaders .Hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 12:37 PM

Maybe it's an insignificant point but "during the 1972 Olympic Games in Munich killed 11 Israeli athletes" probably misstates what actually happened. There was a badly botched "rescue attempt" by the German police in which the hostage athletes were killed, at least some of them by the police fire.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 12:53 PM

If true, still a distinction without a difference, McGrath. The operation was instigated by Fatah (Black September)...the guilt isa theirs.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 12:57 PM

Also, are you implying that sometimes the innocent are killed along with the guilty by a third party? Seems to me that's what happened recently in Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 01:44 PM

Some Palestinians fled to Jordan during the Nakba, but they don't come from there originally, which, I think, is what was being suggested when the question was asked about why they were kicked out of that country. There is a persistent propaganda myth still circulating that the Palestinians come originally from Jordan, and only arrived in Israel because they were kicked out of Jordan. That is what I was addressing.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 02:08 PM

If that is what you meant, you are still historically wrong. Until 1921 what is now Jordan was a part of Palestine, which was given to the Hashimis as Trans-Jordan.

The Hashimites, who came from outside Jordan, became rulers of a Palestinian peoples. So it is not entirely incorrect to think of Jordan as a Palestinian homeland. The difference, of course, is that those Palestinians who lived in Trans-Jordan in 1921 became Jordanian and their brothers, sisters and cousins remained in the remnant of Palestine.

The majority of those kicked out of Jordan in the '70s were those who crossed over from the West Bank when it was under Jordanian control.

If Jordan, an overwhelmingly Palestine population can exist, so too should an Israel be allowed to exist as an overwhelmingly Jewish country.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 02:41 PM

The area that is now Jordan was very sparsely populated prior to the establishment of the Hashemite kingdom there. The Palestinian people are an indigenous people in the area that is now Israel and the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem.

Palestinians in Jordan don't maintain their majority through ethnic cleansing of the people in Jordan who are not of Palestinian origin. In order for Israel to maintain a permanent Jewish majority, it is necessary for it to practice ethnic cleansing and possibly even genocide. That is the difference. Maintaining a Jewish majority through ethnic cleansing and/or genocide is not sustainable, and leads to a permanent state of war.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 02:43 PM

60 Minutes on the death of the two state solution (thank you 60 minutes!)...

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=4752349n

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 02:54 PM

I have to say, though, from watching that video, it looks to me like Tzipi Livni is trying to get Netanyahu elected instead of herself. Instead of saying she would forcibly remove the settlers from the West Bank, she should be saying that they can stay there if they want, but if they do, they will be living there as Palestinians under the authority of the Palestinian state, and that the settlements would no longer be subsidized by Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 03:01 PM

Sparsely populated or not Trans-Jordanians were Palestinian at the formation of that country. The outsiders were the rulers. The reason for internal peace since the '70s is that Jordan is an ethnically homogeneous country, and religiously nearly so.

"..a US Department of State International Religious Freedom Report 2006 on Jordan states that: "The Government recognizes Judaism as a religion; however there are reportedly no Jordanian citizens who are Jewish..." This is because Jews are denied 'citizenship' in Jordan, as opposed to Arabs, Muslim and Christan, who remained in Israel.

As to your other comments in your last post to me, you may believe what you will, and define as you will, but I through with playing that game.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 03:06 PM

Linguistic gymnastics aside, the Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem and the people now known as "Arab Israelis" are indigenous to those areas, and not Jordan.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 03:15 PM

By the way, I think the only game that is being played is the one in which people try to pretend that Israeli Jews can maintain a permanent majority without practicing ethnic cleansing.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 03:50 PM

"Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem and the people now known as "Arab Israelis" are indigenous to those areas, and not Jordan."

They are?! I thought Israeli Arabs were those who stayed inside Israel during and after the 1948 war and are Israel citizens. Those in the West Bank, etc. consider themselves, and are "Palestinian." Those in Jordan at that time were already Jordanian, and some who entered Jordan after 1948 have been given Jordanian citizenship...which is more than any Jew has there.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 03:56 PM

Yes, that is correct. I forgot to specify Israel in my statement. I will rephrase...

"Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem, and in Israel, the people now known as "Arab Israelis" are indigenous to those areas, and not Jordan."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 04:02 PM

"Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem, and in Israel, the people now known as "Arab Israelis" are indigenous to those areas, and not Jordan."

Well now, at least, your statement is 25% correct.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 04:05 PM

The Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem are indigenous to those areas as well as to what is now Israel. The people now known as Arab Israelis are indigenous to what is now Israel. That is 100% correct.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 04:10 PM

"The Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem are indigenous to those areas as well as to what is now Israel. The people now known as Arab Israelis are indigenous to what is now Israel. That is 100% correct."
Yes! Finally! That is not what you wrote earlier.
And, to my knowledge, nobody here has denied it.

It's like pulling teeth. ;)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 04:13 PM

I'm sure this game of trying to trip me up is very amusing, but my point was that none of the Palestinians and Arab Israelis in the areas I listed are indigenous to what is now Jordan, which was the entire point that I was trying to make. And yes, many people do try to promote the idea that they came originally from Jordan, as I think the person whose points I was responding to may have been doing.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 05:13 PM

Following today's clashes on the Gaza border the odious Israeli foreign minister Livni,regarded by many as a war criminal, has declared that Israel"will no longer show any restraint" .

If the events of the past few weeks amount to some form of restraint what with the mass killing of civilians in houses, the slaughter of hundreds of children and the maiming of thousands then Livni who comes from a family of zionist Stern gang terrorists is giving warning of more carnage to be delivered by the Israeli military.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 05:50 PM

Point of correction - Tzipi Livni's parents were active not in the Stern Gang but in the larger group Irgun - which was also classified as a terrorist organisation by the British and the American governments at the time, in the light of actions such as the blowing up of the King David hotel in Jerusalem, in which 91 people were killed. (Beats anything Hamas has ever managed to do in that line...)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 06:28 PM

I am not trying to trip you up, CarolC, I am trying to get you to say what you mean, and to be as historically accurate as possible. I know that doesn't count for much to most folks in this era of 24/7 news dished up in 30 second sound bites, and pictures with no context. But it matters to some of us.

While I know I'll never change your position, what you believe, you believe, I will comment on inaccuracy when I see it.

BTW, who promotes the idea that Palestinians 'come' from Jordan? What I read is that Jordan was carved off of Palestine...which is why some think that Jordan could be the Palestinian homeland. I know that may not seem different from what you wrote, but it is truly 180 degrees different.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 06:51 PM

The Palestine Mandate which included what is now Jordan was a completely artificial creation set up in the horsetrading around the Treaty of Versailles. To talk of it as if it had some kind of historical unity is absurd.

The area to the East of the Jordan had never been linked administatively with the area to the West, which under the Turks was made up in 1914 of three separate "sanjaks". See the map on this site - a Zionist site, as it happens, to avoid arguments about this being an anti-Zionist distortion.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 07:03 PM

Someone in this thread asked me why the Palestinians were kicked out of Jordan. They did not ask me why some Palestinians were kicked out of Jordan. When someone else in this thread used the term "the Jews", that person was severely castigated by several people because they maintain that saying "the" in front of "Jews" means that the person saying it is referring to all Jews.

When someone says "the" in front of "Palestinians", that person's words indicate that the entire group is included in the comment.

However, I have had interactions with many, many people who believe that the Palestinians originally came from Jordan and emigrated to what is now Israel and the Palestinian areas because they were kicked out of Jordan. There are many, many people who believe that there were no Palestinians in what is now Israel and the occupied Palestinian areas before the European Jews showed up.

If one is really concerned with historical accuracy, one would make an effort to correct these beliefs when they are encountered.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 02:42 PM

One at a time CC, You are prone to avoiding questions by asking another question:

"Why shouldn't they have weapons?"

The question was why would they buy weapons instead of food? Why would they spend food money on weapons and them claim they are starving?

Why do they have to smuggle food in through tunnels? Is food illegal or something?

The answer to your smoke screen question is yes, they can have weapons as long as they use them for defense and if they do not fire missiles into another country to deliberately cause themselves to be invaded like they have engineered. Then they whine a cry and suck snot to gain sympathy from idiots to make the Jews look bad.

The blockades are for weapons, not food.

The tunnels are for smuggling weapons, not food.

"When Fatah tried to stage its coup in all of the Palestinian areas, it only succeeded in the West Bank, but not in Gaza"

More evidence that Palestinians want to fight, they do not want peace.

The fighting continued into 1971, however, when King Hussein finally struck a decisive blow against the Palestinians, driving them out of their remaining bases and expelling them from the country. The Palestinian extremist group Black September was named after the month in which the Palestinians were driven out of Jordan.

Yes, they were driven out of Jordan, Jordan did make peace with Israel and Jordan is a trading partner with Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 03:48 PM

The blockades are for weapons, not food.

The tunnels are for smuggling weapons, not food.

Wrong both times, I'm afraid.

The blockade covers far more than weapons, and has reduced food supplies to a trickle, a level that is totally inadequate to meet the needs of the population of Gaza.

And arms and stuff that can be used to make arms have never been more than a relatively small part of what has been brought in through the tunnels.

>I>Food, medicine, fuel, parts for water and sanitation systems, fertiliser, plastic sheeting, phones, paper, glue, shoes and even teacups are no longer getting through in sufficient quantities or at all. According to Oxfam only 137 trucks of food were allowed into Gaza in November. This means that an average of 4.6 trucks per day entered the strip compared to an average of 123 in October this year and 564 in December 2005.

That comes from a page by the San Francisco Gray Panthers - Effects of Israeli blockade of Gaza

And note, those figures relate to a period during which the earlier ceasefire was still supposed to be in operation - a ceasefire largely based on a promise by Israel not to impose a blockade on essential supplies.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 03:49 PM

Food, medicine, fuel, parts for water and sanitation systems, fertiliser, plastic sheeting, phones, paper, glue, shoes and even teacups are no longer getting through in sufficient quantities or at all. According to Oxfam only 137 trucks of food were allowed into Gaza in November. This means that an average of 4.6 trucks per day entered the strip compared to an average of 123 in October this year and 564 in December 2005.

That comes from a page by the San Francisco Gray Panthers - Effects of Israeli blockade of Gaza

And note, those figures relate to a period during which the earlier ceasefire was still supposed to be in operation - a ceasefire largely based on a promise by Israel not to impose a blockade on essential supplies.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 04:24 PM

They don't have weapons instead of food. Even if they didn't bring in any weapons at all, they still wouldn't be able to get anywhere near enough food. Someone else has answered the rest of it very well, so I don't need to.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 04:35 PM

One thing that it seems to me ought to be blindingly obvious is that if they were only interested in keeping out weapons and not basic necessities, they would simply inspect everything coming into Gaza, confiscate any weapons, and allow food, medicines, and other necessities to enter. They are not doing this. They are preventing anything and everything from entering.

So clearly, the blockade has nothing whatever to do with weapons, and is a form of collective punishment against the people in Gaza. Which is a crime under international law, by the way, and is a deliberate targeting of civilians.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 05:01 PM

If it were just about weapons another option would be to allow stuff to come in by sea on ships. If the Israeli authorities were worried they could even specify that, for example, only ships of the Royal Navy or the US Navy would be allowed in.

And if the Israel wasn't happy with that, so what. After asll, the Berlin Blockade wasn't broken with the approval and cooperation of the Russians and East Germans.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 05:03 PM

Israel does not control the border with Egypt. Hamas's inability or reluctance to moderate and control militant factions caused Egypt to close that border.

Israel has always allowed in humanitarian aid, it even allowed set aside three hours per day in the middle of their last incursion into Gaza so that these supplies could be delivered - And we saw what happened Hamas gunmen set up road blocks and stole the provisions as they were on their way to the storage depots.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Davey
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 05:09 PM

To Teribus
Frankly you are talking through your hat! You sound like some kind of Israeli propogandaist.Keep on in that vein and you'll be telling us next that the bombing of Gaza was for the good of its reidents.C'mon man!
Davey

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 05:24 PM

The Egyptian government does what its told.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 05:47 PM

Well prove me wrong - Did the IDF set aside a fixed three hour period each day in order that humanitarian could be brought into Gaza? The answer to that question is an unqualified YES or NO.

And the world and it's dog knows that the answer to that question is YES.

Kevin Oh Wise One, who tells the Egyptian Government to do what??

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 06:00 PM

Actually, Israel does control the border with Egypt.

"Following the disengagement, Israel withdrew its forces from the southern border between Gaza and Egypt. At first, many thought that this brought an end to Israel's control of the border crossing between Gaza and Egypt, known as Rafah Crossing, which is now the only border crossing in the Gaza Strip that is not subject direct Israeli control. However, as time passed, it became clear that Israel retained the power to open and close the crossing at will, and since Hamas's takeover of the Palestinian security forces in Gaza, in June 2007, it has been almost permanently closed"

http://www.btselem.org/english/Gaza_Strip/Rafah_Crossing.asp

The people who are trying to bring humanitarian aid into Gaza at this time are saying that Israel is allowing a very small trickle to enter, but that most of the supplies are piling up at the wall outside of Gaza, and that the amount that is getting in is not anywhere near enough to prevent a humanitarian catastrophe.

http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Daily/Day/090128/2009012804.html

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 08:10 PM

Now if some powerful country with a strong navy were to decide to bring in humanitarian aid by sea, and defy the blockade, who could object to that? And who could vote against a UN Security Council vote to authorise that?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 10:25 PM

Dream on...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 01:57 AM

Write and suggest that to Ahmadinejad Kevin, that would kill two birds with one stone, Hamas would get the supplies that they themselves have prioritised ever since 2005 and they could cut out the middlemen thereby reducing the cost.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 02:05 AM

PS Kevin:

The last shipment that was supposed to come into Gaza direct was back in Tosser Arafat's glory days - The shipment was £15 million worth of arms from Iran - The Israeli Mossad and IDF intercepted that particular one at sea and prevented Arafat from getting hold of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 10:34 AM

To Teribus
Arafat was no "tosser" as you say. That is a meaningless insult to someone who in his own way tried to protect the Palestinian people from the Israeli oppressor for most of his adult life.
If we are going to toss sdjectives around...how about
the butcher Sharon
the war criminal Livni
and
the child killer Olmert
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 11:09 AM

It won't happen - but the point is, why won't it happen? If the blockade was just about arms getting in to Hamas, there would be no reason for Israel to object to the US Navy bringing in aid, and no reason for the US government to take any notice of objections.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 12:11 PM

Thanks Guest ifor, best laugh I've had all day.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 02:54 PM

So, ifor, what happened to the $300,000,000 Arafat was 'holding' for the Palestinians?

Naw, never mind . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 03:50 PM

OK CC let me simplify the questions some more.

Why do they have weapons but they do not have food?

It if were not for smuggling in weapons, why would food shipments be
hindered?

"they would simply inspect everything coming into Gaza, confiscate any weapons, and allow food, medicines, and other necessities to enter."

How can they simply inspect what comes in through Egypt? Especially through tunnels?

Why do you think Israel is in charge of inspecting or able to inspect things coming in through the Egyptian border?

"So far Egypt has kept the crossing largely shuttered, which has drawn vehement criticism in worldwide protests for not allowing in more relief supplies and doctors. Demonstrators across the Middle East have accused it of helping the Israelis crush Hamas by rendering aid passage through the borders difficult.

On Wednesday, doctors from different organizations clustered on the Egyptian side of the border in hopes of crossing over to Gaza. None received permission to enter. "We have been trying to get permissions to cross the border," says Ahmad Elwi, a surgeon and member of the Cairo-based Arab Medics Syndicate. "We came upon a call from Palestinian hospitals who asked for medics' help since they haven't been able to cope with the increasing number of the wounded."

In front of the border, trucks filled with medical supplies were lined up at the main gate. They waited for hours for Israel to stop its raid Wednesday during a temporary cease-fire to allow in humanitarian aid. When the gate opened, Egyptian police started searching each truck for about 10 minutes, making sure that only medical supplies were loaded, while getting rid of foodstuffs.

According to Khaled Atteya, the general coordinator of the Rafah crossing, foodstuffs can only be passed through the Kerem Shalom crossing, which is some 2-1/2 miles away.

"Today alone there was some 350 tons of foodstuffs crossed over the borders. This perfectly explains how the borders are open and ready to pass on aid," says Mr. Atteya.

In the meantime, the borders are closed for individuals and medics. "The situation does not allow us to send doctors now, since we can't guarantee their safety," says Atteya. The medics from the Arab Doctors Syndicate said they were aware of the security threats. "We presented a statement to the Egyptian government saying that we want to cross to Gaza on our own responsibility," says Mr. Elwi, one of 46 waiting medics.

The Arab Medics Union is headed by Abdul Moneim Abul Futtouh, a prominent Muslim Brotherhood member, Egypt's main opposition group. While the Brotherhood has been critical of the Egyptian government's policy toward Hamas, it's unknown whether the doctors' requests are being denied because of their affiliation with the Brotherhood.

Many doctors from international organizations have been waiting in Rafah for permission to cross into Gaza. None of them have been allowed except for two Norwegian medics. Negotiations with the Norwegian Embassy are ongoing to send a third medic on Thursday.

Caoimhe Butterly, an Irish activist who worked on sending aid boats from Cyprus to Gaza, has been working in Egypt to get permissions for medics.

"It is important to pressure for doctors to cross the borders to Gaza. It's a purely humanitarian issue," she says. On Tuesday, only one Norwegian doctor was allowed in Gaza by the Egyptian authorities. According to Ms. Butterly, Norway and Egypt have an agreement that allows for the passage of Norwegian doctors.

"Egypt has been saying it is reluctant to open the border area of fear of Palestinians infiltrating in Sinai. Sinai has been open before Palestinians for tens of years and they never thought of getting in," says Abdul Qadir Yassin, a Palestinian historian."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 04:38 PM

CC You are right, there is food coming through the tunnels but it is no0t mainstream supplies.

Here is BHO's statement on the US and Israel

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 04:38 PM

Dear CC. This is how Israel wrecks their economy:

"The Israeli settlers of Gush Katif built greenhouses and experimented with new forms of agriculture. These greenhouses also provided employment for many hundred Gazan Palestinians. When Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip in the Summer of 2005, these greenhouses were bought by the World Bank and given to the Palestinian people to jump-start their economy. Most of these greenhouses have now been looted or destroyed."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 05:12 PM

Once again - the water to the greenhouses was turned off by Israel after they pulled out, making them totally useless as greenhouses.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 05:53 PM

"the water to the greenhouses was turned off by Israel after they pulled out, making them totally useless as greenhouses." - MGOH

Ah but Kevin the water was turned off after the greenhouses had been demolished for their scrap value - You know haow it goes, a responsible caring Government has to have rocket launchers and all that scrap metal just standing there was near as damn it perfect for the job.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 05:57 PM

They need more than 500 truckloads of food every day. It is not possible to bring anywhere near that much food through the tunnels, even when there are many tunnels.

The water was turned off even before the greenhouses were officially turned over to the Palestinians. And only about 75 percent of all of the greenhouses were actually turned over. The rest were dismantled and moved to Israel...

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=46011

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 06:18 PM

Actually its more complicated than that - though turning off the water caused the loss of the crops that were growing, and contributed to some initial looting, things got better for a while - here is a link to an article in the New York Times in November 2005 Gaza Gets Ready for a Harvest of Produce and Promise

But Israel blocked any exports of the produce and very effectively wrecked the attempt to set up an export business to Europe which could have made an enormous difference for Gaza. This meant the greenhouses had no possibility of being run commercially - they couldn't have covered the costs of production.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 07:12 PM

"Gaza gets ready for a Harvest of Produce and Promise" - then the stupid b*****d's elected Hamas and the rockets started flying.

Bone thick, totally lacking in imagination, or insane - just about sums that up. No bloody wonder produce and promise flew out the window!!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 07:52 PM

The first violence after Israel's pullout from Gaza was committed by Israel when it killed two people in Tulkarm camp on October 23rd. Gazans responded with rockets and a suicide bombing, and after that, both sides participated in attacks on the other - missiles, artillary shellings, and closure of the border by Israel, and rockets from Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 08:29 PM

Tunnels, The lifeline for the Palestinians in Gaza. How else can you get basic human necessities like cigarettes, perfumes, fugitives snakes, lions, Kalashnikovs, rockets, explosives, fighters and funds into Gaza under the watchful eye of the evil Israelis?


"Do you have your passport?" one of the smugglers asked. Climbing out of the hole and emerging in an Egyptian border town in the dead of night was out of the question. Jail was the least I could expect if caught.

Canvas bags thumped down into the tunnel and Abu Mutassem and friends hauled them back under the heavily patrolled border into Gaza.

Only after he had climbed back up the rope and emerged from the "eye" did Abu Mutassem check his cargo: 70 short-barrelled Kalashnikov semi-automatic rifles, individually wrapped in plastic to keep out the dirt.

Each weapon would fetch $1,200 (£600) in Gaza. They had cost less than $200 from the desert Beduin community. Abu Mutassem and his men would share about $250 dollars for each gun. The profit margin on bullets was even higher. The big winner from their enterprise would be the tunnel owner or "snake head" who had put up about $50,000 to buy the house on the border.

This week Hamas closed down 35 of these tunnels. It was unclear whether this was because of a dispute with the "snake heads" or as part of the Islamic movement's commitments with Israel under a six-month ceasefire deal. Most, though, remain intact and the "military tunnels", used to bring rockets, explosives, fighters and funds into Gaza, will not be demolished.

The operators of the "commercial tunnels" plied by Abu Mutassem and his colleagues say that the market for small arms is drying up after a glut of weapons. Like any travelling salesmen, the smugglers vary their cargo to meet demand: sometimes drugs, often cigarettes, perfumes, fugitives (going rate $2,000 a trip) and, very occasionally, even African snakes or wild animals to stock a zoo.

The "snake head" typically needs only one successful crossing to turn his initial investment into profit. He is usually quick to snap up the four-wheel-drive vehicles, the phalanx of gun-toting bodyguards, the new villa and other trappings of the successful entrepreneur.

Those left underground are less fortunate. "It's the worst job in the world," said Abu Mutassem.

Three tunnellers have died in the past two weeks. In one case a tunnel collapsed after the Egyptians pumped in water. The digger was dragged out by his feet 24 hours later by a member of one of the extended tribal families that dominate the tunnel business. The tunnelling culture is so well established in Rafah that the high street barber - the Shaheeds' (Martyrs') Salon - has pictures of dead tunnellers on its walls and mirrors, alongside their shovels and other memorabilia.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 09:21 PM

So as we can see from that article, the tunnels are in no way adequate for bringing in the amount of supplies that are needed, just in terms of basic necessities for a population of more than 1.3 million. Relatively small numbers of people drag in small amounts of goods at great risk to themselves and they try to make some money on it, while more than 500 TRUCKLOADS per day are needed to keep the people of Gaza from slowly starving.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 11:21 PM

So weapons are desperately needed supplies?

"they try to make some money on it" $70,000 profit in one haul is trying to make some money at it?


As we see from the article above the Palestinians are more interested in obtaining weapons than food.

They have created their own situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 11:28 PM

There are more than 1.3 million Palestinians in Gaza. To say that "the" Palestinians are anything at all based on what a very small number of Palestinians do is not only incorrect, it's also racist. No matter what the smugglers do or did, there is/was no way to feed the people of Gaza using the tunnels. So what this means is that the government of Israel is deliberately starving the civilian population of Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 02:36 AM

"the" Palestinians are the ones who voted for and have applauded all that that very small number of Palestinians have done. If they wanted peace, and here I do mean ALL Palestinians they could have it tomorrow. Since 1920 they have consistantly shown that they do not. And CarolC if you want to get into some sort of pissing contest as who did what first, then in Palestine the Arabs started first.

Want the border crossings open - STOP ATTACKING ISRAEL - It really is that bloody simple.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 03:21 AM

Did anybody see the exit from Davos of the Turkish PM yesterday.

General concensus seems to be that the debate should have been extended and that he should have been given time to address Shimon Peres's question regarding what the Prime Minister of Turkey would have done if confronted with a barrage of 8000+ rockets and mortar bombs fired into turkish territory from a neighbouring state.

As it was the Turkish PM was not given time to respond and he stormed out of the meeting and out of Davos vowing never to return. On arrival back in Turkey he was given a heroes reception.

I bet that after a good nights sleep he woke up and called the guy who was "chairing" the debate to thank him profusely for stepping in to prevent him (the Turkish PM) from making a complete and utter C**t of himself in front of the world and proving beyond doubt that he is a hypocrit of the first water.

Why do I say that?? Because after the Turkish PM had given his answer about diplomacy, concessions and negotiation. Shimon Peres would have asked him why that did not apply to Turkey's dealings with the Kurds and with the autonomous Kurdish region of Iraq - Correct me if I am wrong but Turkey did bomb that area?? Turkey did send in troops and armour did they not??

Of course one rule for Muslims, another for Jews, how silly of me.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 03:32 AM

If anyone is trying to justify the punishment of an entire population of people because of whom they voted for, the exact same argument can be used to justify Hamas firing rockets into Israel. It's a slippery slope. The people of Israel have consistently voted for a government that has held the Palestinian people under military occupation for more than 40 years.

So using the argument that it's ok to wage war on a civilian population because of the way they vote, that would mean that it's ok for Hamas to target civilians in Israel.

There is nothing the Palestinians can or could do to make the government of Israel stop its ethnic cleansing (and in the case of Gaza, the ongoing genocide) of their population except to leave or lay down and die on their own. Because that is the goal, and it has always been the goal, and the government of Israel has no intention of stopping until the last Palestinian and Arab Israeli is gone.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 03:47 AM

Make decisions CarolC? If so then ALL have consequences. It is those consequences that should be taken into account before making the decision. That is simple common-sense and blindingly obvious.

You vote for a bunch of clowns to govern you, who couldn't care less whether you live or die, no sorry correction, who given the right circumstances actually prefer it if you die because its better PR for them. Who then start firing rockets and mortar bombs indiscriminately at their neighbours and historically your best trading partner upon whom you rely on for daily needs. Well CarolC you don't have to be "Master-Mind" to work out that the consequences of you voting the way you have will be disasterously detrimental to your future prosperity and well being.

As I commented before what are they? Bone thick?? Totally lacking in imagination?? Insane???

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 04:26 AM

Nevertheless, that does not make what the government of Israel is doing any less of a war crime, or any less a violation of quite a few international laws as well as hundreds of UN resolutions.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 05:02 AM

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1060043.html

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 11:34 AM

The majority of Palestinians that voted for Hammas are responsible for the starvation.

Hammas is the culprit as shown in several official statements by Hamas which CC choses to ignore.


EU official: Hamas responsible for Gaza war
2009-01-2009

Special report: Palestine-Israel Conflicts

    GAZA, Jan. 26 (Xinhua) -- European Union (EU) Aid Commissioner Louis Michel held on Monday Islamic Hamas movement "overwhelmingly" responsible for the outcomes of the Israeli military offensive on Gaza.

    Michel, who toured Monday the badly damaged enclave of the Gaza Strip, told a news conference that Hamas "is overwhelmingly responsible for the war waged by Israel on the Gaza Strip."

    "Launching (homemade) rockets at civilians is a terrorist action, which has to be strongly denounced," Michel told the reporters as he toured Jabalia refugee camp in northern Gaza Strip.

    He added that as he checked out the destruction caused by the Israeli army during a 22-day military air and ground offensive, "we should also remind that in spite of all of this, Hamas is overwhelmingly responsible for the outcomes."

    It is the first senior EU official who slammed the Hamas movement, which considered the Israeli offensive as "a great victory for the Palestinians."

    "I mean here to say that Hamas is a terrorist movement and must be condemned. If we want the EU to encourage a political dialogue that achieves calm and progress, Hamas should accept two small conditions," said Michel.

    "Hamas has to recognize Israel's right of return and abandon the armed struggle which basically has terrorist dimensions," Michel added.

    However, Michel announced that the EU would donate an urgent aid of 60 million Euros for the Palestinians. He described the destruction occurred in Gaza "as horrible that is hard to be described."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 03:09 PM

It's against international law and the Geneva convention to punish civilian populations for what their elected officials do, even if they are democratically elected. It's also a war crime.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: robomatic
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 03:56 PM

Is it not against "international law and the Geneva convention to fire weapons into civilian populations with more civilian populations as cover?

And is it not actually required by legitimate governments to defend their populations against acts of war committed against their people?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 05:49 PM

It is illegal to target civilians. And both sides have been doing it. Both sides are wrong, and both sides are committing war crimes and violating international law and the Geneva Conventions when they do it. However, the government of the US and some other countries are only sanctioning Hamas for targeting civilians, while they assist the government of Israel in targeting civilians.

The people who use Hamas' behavior to justify the government of Israel's violations of international law and the Geneva Conventions are no better than Hamas themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 05:51 PM

And by the way, under international law and the Geneva Conventions, the people of Gaza and the West Bank have a right to resist Israeli occupation, while Israel, in occupying the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem is in violation of international law, the Geneva Convention, and hundreds of UN resolutions.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: robomatic
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 06:23 PM

The Israelis had unilaterally removed their settlements from Gaza, so they "de-occupied" themselves of themselves, some time ago. Before the late unpleasantness I believe Gaza was, and is, under administration of Hamas, not Israelis at the present.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 06:31 PM

"under international law and the Geneva Conventions, the people of Gaza and the West Bank have a right to resist Israeli occupation,"

And fair play to them for doing so CarolC. Unfortunately for the people of Gaza and the West Bank when they attack Israeli Forces (which, come on let's face it they do very seldom) or Israeli civilians (Which they do a lot, probably on the premise that civilians don't fight back) the Israelis have the right to defend themselves.

Now ever since 1937 when the Jews in Palestine gave up trusting the British to protect them from Arab attack and formed their own self-defence organisation, the Jews and latterly the Israelis have been a damn sight better at defending themselves than the Arabs have been at attacking them. That remains the case to this day. The people of Gaza and the West Bank have got a very simple decision to make based upon their own track record, probability and the law of diminishing returns.

We can either continue with this pipe-dream about destroying the Jews and driving them into the sea then taking over their property and businesses, or we could adopt a more pragmatic stance and start getting on with our lives, forget about the Jews and use all this money being thrown at us from every "swinging-dick" of a government in the world for our own benefit.

Unfortunately they will probably continue with more of the same that has been going on for the last 60 years, i.e. losing 100 people for every Israeli killed because they simply just suck at what they are trying to do. Those who govern the Arabs of Palestine and those who proclaim themselves allies, friends and supporters of the Arabs of Palestine couldn't give a toss about the Arabs of Palestine - That being the case can you give me one good reason why the Israelis should give a toss??

Oh on the subject of "ethnic cleansing"; "genocide" and the like could you please provide some Arab population statistics for Israel, Gaza and the West Bank from 1948 to the present day? I mean if Israel has been engaged in this wholesale slaughter of innocents as you all claim I would have thought that after such prodigious efforts over the last 60 years Palestinian Arabs would be rather thin on the ground. But somehow I don't think that they are - any reason for that?? Are they shipping "new" ones in to take the place of those who have fallen subject to all this ethnic cleansing and genocide that's been going on??

On United Nations definition and qualifications for Palestinian Arab "right of return" could you please quote precisely what the qualifications are with regard to place of birth, proof of identity, proof of residence. That might surprise some.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 06:57 PM

No, they still occupy Gaza by maintaining total control of Gaza's borders, shoreline, airspace, water, and access to other basic necessities. It's an occupation of the same sort as the Warsaw Ghetto was an occupation.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 07:01 PM

All of the above attempts to change the subject notwithstanding, Israel is in violation of international law, the Geneva Conventions, and hundreds of UN resolutions by continuing its occupation of the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem. And in targeting the civilian population of Gaza, it is also guilty of war crimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: robomatic
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 07:30 PM

I think your tendency is to assume an overall argument, using the UN as some sort of standard, incorporating the following:

1) Israel's existence is illegal
2) Israel's self-defense is illegal
3) Israel's political and media attempts to explicate its actions are illegal

This overlooks that:
1) Israel was attacked on its 1948 independence by forces from all the nations around its UN sanctioned borders.
2) Israel's territory and borders are the result of wars of self-defense and as such are as legal as any other country's borders, including the United States.
3) Israel took in Jewish refugees from Arab and Muslim lands in comparatively similar numbers to Arab refugees going the other way, only now Israel is expected to take them on as well. This is inherently unbalanced and unequal no matter who requires it, even if it is your interpretation of certain, but certainly not all, UN resolutions.
4) Every State is entitled to defensible borders, and in the case of such a miner State as Israel, this includes the Golan and the West Bank.


There are a couple of facts on the ground that are also being ignored.

1)To all intents and purposes Jordan constitutes an existing Palestinian State.

2) There was all sorts of opportunity for Arab countries to accept a peac with Israel at the 1967 borders. This was of course prior to May 1967.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 08:25 PM

The above characterization of my stance is incorrect.

1) Israel's existence is not illegal

2) Israel's self-defense is legal if it follows international laws.

I have no idea what number three is supposed to mean.

Israel was not attacked around its UN sanctioned borders in 1948. Israel was attempting to take land that had been allocated to the Palestinians, and the armies that have been accused of attacking Israel were, in reality, defending those areas from Israeli encroachment (Jordan, of course, in collusion with Israel to take and divide that land between itself and Israel, which is what was done). Almost all of the fighting took place on land that was allotted to the Palestinians by the UN and not in the area that had been allotted to Israel by the UN. And all of the land that was taken outside of the areas allotted to either side by the UN was taken by Israel from the Palestinians.

Israel's territory and borders are the internationally recognized borders (the pre-'67 borders). Israel has not officially annexed the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem, so those areas are not within its borders.

Israel is not at this time being asked to take in the people who fled from the area that is within its internationally recognized borders. It is being asked to end the occupation of lands that are outside of its internationally recognized borders.

No state has a right to take land by force. That is against international law.

Jordan is the Hashemite Kingdom. It is not a Palestinian state.

There has never been an opportunity for the Palestinians to have a state within the pre-1967 borders. What other Arab countries have chosen to do or not do is irrelevant.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 08:31 PM

I should rephrase this part...

There has never been an opportunity for the Palestinians to have a state in any of the areas that were allotted to them by the UN (The West Bank, Gaza, East Jerusalem, and the areas that were taken from them by Israel in 1948). What other Arab countries have chosen to do or not do is irrelevant.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 09:10 PM

In 1948 tourists from various Arab countries came to welcome Israel as the new kid on the block, and to assure the flourishing of Palestine. These tourists came from Jordan (30,000 of them), Iraq (about 21,000), Egypt (40,000), Syria ( about 12,000) and a few (under 4000) Lebanese. They came in their own tanks and armored vehicles, and airplanes...first class all the way.

They came, looked around, fought a bit and left in mid-1949. The Jordanians liked the Palestinian section so well (the West Bank as we call it now) that they 'held' it for Palestinians for 18 years...doing sweet nothing to help their Arab brothers build a country in the land that was supposed to be theirs. Likewise, Egypt in Gaza.

What a wonderful place Palestine might have become if those countries had taken Palestinians under their wings instead of under their boots.

So it really is relevant what other countries chose to do when they controlled the West Bank and Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 09:14 PM

Haaretz

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 09:24 PM

I won't argue that Jordan was not also as guilty of robbing the Palestinians of their state as Israel was up until 1967. But nobody tried to take from Israell any of the land that had been allocated to it by the UN. Rather, it was Israel that was trying to take, with the help of Jordan, the land that was allocated to the Palestinians by the UN. And what other Arab countries have done or not done has no relevance whatever to the question of what the Palestinians have a right to.

I should also mention that it is a violation of the Geneva Conventions for any government to transfer any part of the civilian population of their country into any area that they occupy militarily, as Israel is doing in the West Bank and East Jerusalem.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 09:42 PM

"But nobody tried to take from Israell any of the land that had been allocated to it by the UN."

True, they didn't just want any of it (Israel, that is), they wanted all of it and NO Israel. No big deal.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 09:53 PM

Nobody tried to take land from Israel that had been granted to it by the UN. Israel was trying to take all of the land that had been granted to both it, as well as the Palestinians. But nobody did anything whatever to take land that was allocated to Israel. So it is totally incorrect to say that it was Arabs who wanted all of it. The only people who tried to take all of it was Israel, and what they didn't succeed in taking then, they are still in the process of taking now.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 10:03 PM

Right. And the assorted Arab 'freedom' fighters are jus' little angels.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 10:13 PM

As per the Geneva convention:

"My message to the loathed Jews is that there is no god but Allah [and] we will chase you everywhere! We are a nation that drinks blood, and we know that there is no blood better than the blood of Jews. We will not leave you alone until we have quenched our thirst with your blood, and our children's thirst with your blood. We will not leave until you leave the Muslim countries..."

Is feeding your children the blood of your enemies approved by the Geneva convention?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 12:41 AM

Even Hamas has agreed to not oppose the establishment of a Palestinian state using the pre-1967 (internationally recognized) borders if the Palestinian people agree to it. The majority of Palestinian have indicated that they would accept a Palestinian state under those terms.

There's nothing standing in the way of it except Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 01:03 AM

"In 1948 tourists from various Arab countries came to welcome Israel as the new kid on the block, and to assure the flourishing of Palestine. These tourists came from Jordan (30,000 of them), Iraq (about 21,000), Egypt (40,000), Syria ( about 12,000) and a few (under 4000) Lebanese. They came in their own tanks and armored vehicles, and airplanes...first class all the way."

Let me be clear here...In 1948 over 100,000 assorted Arab troops from at least 5 Arab countries, invaded Israel and Palestine to assist the Palestinians in destroying the nascent country, Israel, which had been approved by, and recognized by the United Nations.

You may put whatever spin you wish on that invasion, but it occurred, and all of your posturing and dissembling does not change that fact of history. When the dust had settled, Israel had gained some territory, and lost some territory, but the net effect was that it became more contiguous and a bit larger.

None of the Arab countries signed a peace treaty with Israel in 1949; Jordan and Egypt did not give the territory they had taken from the Palestinians in 1949 back to them to create the country of Palestine. And all of your posturing and dissembling doesn't change that fact of history.

Palestine only became an imperitve (other than to Palestinians) in the Arab world after Israel entered the West Bank during the '67 war, and Palestinians wreaked havoc in Jordan and Lebanon in the 1970s. Israel is now expected to make good the Arab betrayal of Palestine. The price for that is peace and recognition from Palestinians and their leaders.

If Palestinians still want a country, and they do, perhaps it is time to stop fighting and work peacefully toward that goal.

As I said a couple of days ago, it will have to be a two state solution, and Jews in the West Bank will of needs become minority citizens in Palestine, just as Arabs are minority citizens in Israel. And Jewish access to Jewish holy places must be guaranteed.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 01:41 AM

Israel was not attacked around its UN sanctioned borders in 1948. Israel was attempting to take land that had been allocated to the Palestinians, and the armies that have been accused of attacking Israel were, in reality, defending those areas from Israeli encroachment (Jordan, of course, in collusion with Israel to take and divide that land between itself and Israel, which is what was done). Almost all of the fighting took place on land that was allotted to the Palestinians by the UN and not in the area that had been allotted to Israel by the UN. And all of the land that was taken outside of the areas allotted to either side by the UN was taken by Israel from the Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 01:47 AM

By the way, that's not spin. Almost no fighting occurred in areas that had been allotted to Israel by the UN. However, Israel had already, in the several months prior to its declaration of its independence, ethnically cleansed many thousands of Palestinians from land that had been allotted to the Palestinians by the UN. Israel was already in the process of clearing out and securing for itself, land that had been allotted to the Palestinians by the UN even before it declared its independence.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 01:56 AM

For people who would like to get involved...

http://www.jstreet.org/

http://www.jstreet.org/about/about-us

J Street is the political arm of the pro-Israel, pro-peace movement.

J Street was founded to promote meaningful American leadership to end the Arab-Israeli and Palestinian-Israel conflicts peacefully and diplomatically. We support a new direction for American policy in the Middle East and a broad public and policy debate about the U.S. role in the region.

J Street represents Americans, primarily but not exclusively Jewish, who support Israel and its desire for security as the Jewish homeland, as well as the right of the Palestinians to a sovereign state of their own - two states living side-by-side in peace and security. We believe ending the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is in the best interests of Israel, the United States, the Palestinians, and the region as a whole.

J Street supports diplomatic solutions over military ones, including in Iran; multilateral over unilateral approaches to conflict resolution; and dialogue over confrontation with a wide range of countries and actors when conflicts do arise. For more on our policy positions, click here.

J Street will advocate forcefully in the policy process, in Congress, in the media, and in the Jewish community to make sure public officials and community leaders clearly see the depth and breadth of support for our views on Middle East policy among voters and supporters in their states and districts. We seek to complement the work of existing organizations and individuals that share our agenda. In our lobbying and advocacy efforts, we will enlist individual supporters of other efforts as partners.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 03:03 AM

J-Street Facebook page

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: KEVINOAF
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 07:29 AM

and the british are worse than either side!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 09:42 AM

I thought some of you may like to see this blog, of a wonderful musician and pretty darn good person called Noa Bursie:

Noa's myspace page

From that link above, comes this:



***THE EVENING MUSE*** | DEAD SILENCE
Current mood: quiet
Category: Life

The lyrics say it all. The piece below says the rest.

WHY I SUPPORT ISRAEL January 14, 2009


I guess it would be because of the respect for life I was taught as a child - the honor of standing up for and standing by what you believe to be right - because integrity isn't something that can be bought with oil or votes - because I have a brain and an intellect that resists manipulation and the propaganda fed by a deep and pervasive hatred of Jews wherever they exist - most especially, in the State of Israel. I support Israel because I know beyond all doubt the western media, for the most part, is an entertainment industry and is as far from legitimate journalism as the ideals of justice and peace are from the ideology and doctrines of organizations like Hamas and Hizbullah.


As an African-American, and a Jew, and a woman, I have eyes and a memory. I can read. I have the ability to deduce and I have the spirit within me that informs me of a lie. All men deserve to live their lives in peace and raise their children to be free to choose all aspects of their existence without being dominated by religious doctrine, being intimidated by political agendas, or being limited or restricted because of their gender.


There is a deep lie that permeates all things in this conflict. That Israel is labeled an "apartheid" society is an abuse of the term and a tremendous affront to those whose lives were destroyed by the institution of apartheid in South Africa. While there is a wealth of evidence to soundly disprove and discredit this accusation, one need look no further than the Israeli Knesset. There are twelve Palestinian ministers currently serving terms in the Israeli parliament. Name one nation in the entire Arab world that has a Jew serving in an official governmental capacity – one. There are Palestinian PARTIES within the Israeli Knesset - Balad and UAL. (I don't ever recall history recording indigenous African representatives within the apartheid government in South Africa.) Over one and a quarter million Palestinians live and function as full citizens within Israel's borders and attend schools, universities, social and religious activities, mosques, sports events, etc. across the broad spectrum of daily activities. Not ONE Jew lives in Gaza (except the kidnapped Israeli soldier, Gilad Shalit). The Nazis called that phenomenon, Judenrein. So, who are the racists?


It saddens and disgusts me to see otherwise intelligent, caring, empathetic souls emotionally hijacked by the half-truths and prevarications of the western media coupled with the sheer propaganda of the Arab world with regard to the Israeli-Arab conflict. There were tens of thousands of acts of violent terrorism against Jews throughout the Arab Middle East before 1948 and the establishment of an independent State of Israel, before a single Arab "refugee". And something no one ever talks about - there were roughly a million Jews forcibly expelled from Arab nations in the years after Israel became a modern state.


And G-d forbid...lest we forget so very quickly...THE ARAB NATIONS OF THE MIDDLE EAST AND NORTH AFRICA WERE THE ALLIES OF ADOLF HITLER AND THE NAZI IDEOLOGY!!!! So, are we supposed to conveniently "forget" this historical reality or should we assume a radical shift within the consciousness of Islamic Arab culture with regard to anti-Semitism? Sad that humanity has such a terminally short memory. Are the Islamic Arab nations who call for Israel's destruction NO LONGER motivated by the sentiments that wed them in an unholy marriage with Hitler's 'Final Solution'? Should we consider El Hajj Amin al Husseni, the Mufti of Jerusalem, who called on Hitler to import his extermination of Jews to Palestine in the 1930s a bizzare aberration? Is the assertion by the Arab world that "Zionists" STOLE land from the Palestinians" truly the motive behind suicide bombings and other terrorists attacks from Madrid to London - NYC and Jerusalem ALL because of "stolen land"? Such loyalty and unity amongst brethren...such collective outrage...ironic that such devotion and solidarity from nations like Iraq or Egypt or Syria haven't improved the quality of life in the least for a single Palestinian over the past 60 plus years since Israel declared its independence. It would seem such a history of anti-Semitism in the Arab world would speak for itself. Sadly, voices from CNN, Fox News, The NY Times, and Al Jezzera drown out echoes from the past as well as the voice of reason.


Israel comprises an overall landmass approximately the size of New Jersey. Its length may be traveled in roughly eight hours and its breath in just over an hour from the Mediterranean to the Jordanian border. That a landmass so tiny could be the crucible for such withering, consuming hatred for a population that is outnumbered by not merely millions, but hundreds of millions is mind numbing. Consider the numbers - one uniquely Jewish national entity on a landmass that is like an island in a virtually endless expanse of sea compared to twenty-two exclusively Islamic Arab national entities where it is a capital crime for a Jew to step foot. Consider this reality then let's talk about justice and fairness, racism and apartheid. In this paradigm, the word, disproportionate is entirely applicable. The misuse of the word in Israel's war to destroy Hamas would be better applied to the condemnation of this single Jewish entity surrounded by twenty-two hostile, characteristically 'Judenrein' Islamic nations. That fact is what is appallingly "disproportionate".


Consider. Is there a single national entity whose policies and practices are above reproach and who possess the moral authority to criticize Israel, a nation that receives such a staggeringly disproportionate amount of criticism from the UN and countries FROM EVERY CORNER OF THE GLOBE? Are there humanitarian and human rights abuses within a single Islamic Arab nation being decried and voted on by the UN Security Council? Are we being inundated with images from Darfur of Islamic armies perpetrating atrocities against indigenous African peoples (some 400,000 killed, so far)? Clearly, we are not. Why not?


I support Israel because I abhor the double standard and the abject hatred thinly disguised as moral outrage currently being broadcast from around the world. I am appalled at the gloriously ignorant assertions being made by political analyists and apologists for terror and at the outpouring of anti-Semitism and attacks against Jews we are witnessing right now in Europe. This is NOT the RESULT of the Israeli war in Gaza, rather, it is a convenient excuse to vent deeply cherished, millenia old Arab and European Jew hatred. This is the true atrocity being perpetrated before our eyes. A simple and irrational hatred of Jews and their national identity by proxy is what we are witnessing in the reporting of this war.


I'm reminded of a fairly brief scene in Steven Spielberg's epic, Schindler's List. The Nazi's forced Jews from the ghettos to build more houses and this young Jewish woman, who was an engineer, told the commandant that the buildings were structurally unsound and would have to be torn down and rebuilt. This obviously intelligent, professional, skilled woman attempts to do the slave labor she has been given, and she attempts to do it with all the integrity she possesses - and the commandant orders her to be shot. But it was her response that resonates so with me. In a film replete with poignant, memorable scenes, this one stands out. I believe she tells him, "All you can do is kill me." That's power.


That is what I believe intimidates the world about the Jews – resilience, an indomitable collective spirit, perseverance in the face of insurmountable odds, the fierce and unapologetic individuality and identity. Although it is not, nor has it ever been, a "contest" - "Am Yisrael Chai" drowns out "Allahu Akbar" any day of the week both literally and as a metaphoric battle cry. An affirmation of life, even after life has ended, is more powerful than an assertion of domination and conquest. Therein are the roots that nourish the cancer of anti-Semitism in the Arab world. We rejected Mohammad and not only had the audacity to survive, we prospered. We were forcibly exiled from Arab lands and came back and prospered again – and this time in the ancestral Jewish homeland. This is the foundation upon which anti-Semitism is built, and this, moreso than any single rationale or perceived injustice, is why the world loves to hate the Jewish people. We just won't go away.


"TO SIN BY SILENCE WHEN THEY SHOULD PROTEST MAKES COWARDS OF MEN." - Abraham Lincoln DEAD SILENCE lyrics and music by noa bursie © 2005 dedicated to the memory of Tali Hatuel and her daughters, Hila 11, Hadar 9, Roni 7, and Merav 2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tali_Hatuel why are you afraid and ashamed to be right don't apologize for your beliefs in the middle of a fight perhaps it's a curse – would you rather be wrong stand up for something, damn it be decisive and strong dogma's a noble beast with a killer's reputation lean far enough right or left there's neither honor nor condemnation there is a bottom line though – an absolute truth there really are good and bad guys and not every point is moot situational ethics echo back from the abyss what a testament to our times that we have come to this there is a definitive reckoning a definitive black and white a definitive, palpable darkness in the absence of light and we are fallen… good guys on busses – bad guys on planes a conspiracy of Jews is somehow always to blame dance the inferno in a hellish refrain my cause it is godly – my mission is plain achieve the goal by any means bloody baby hitmen often don't wear military green the correct kind of politic isn't always what is seems the venom of righteous souls wells up into a scream somehow we've fallen hollow men propagandize – the cautious put up fences the reprobate embezzle from their own then cry to the world defenseless dance the inferno in a hellish refrain camera captured image lies – bloodsmear of truth remains pervert the word 'victim' and history is revised fighting rebels hide behind children – camera crews film soldiers returning fire it belies everything that is decent and sane to justify the destruction of the people and the land how far we've fallen resistance is liberation…statehood a must…occupation is apartheid grandmothers, children, babies in strollers or a bus at pizzerias, hotels, discos, supermarkets, or the mall… our silence in the face of it makes cowards of us all identify with the shahid – legitimize atrocity while the righteous sue for peace - killers dictate policy apologists and assassins play with moral equivalence and we are told to simply call it a sad cycle of violence in a world spinning wildly at a feverish pace just erase all that's human from the human race in a world spinning wildly at a feverish pace erase all that's human from the bloody human race and we are fallen…

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 09:45 AM

http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com/2009/02/israel-takes-leak-at-settlements.html

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 10:10 AM

Wow! That's a stunning smear job from Noa Bursie. I guess she's one of those people who would call her fellow Jews who support human rights for Palestinians, "self-hating Jews".

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 10:21 AM

I have read J-Street for several years years.

J-Street is NOT the the 'political arm' of a Jewish peace movement. J-Street is a political group of mostly young professional, American, liberal Jews, who advocate and promote many liberal causes they believe affect Jews, one of which is peace as the want it in the Israel Palestine area. Much, if not most, of their agenda closely follows a classic Democratic, liberal agenda here in the United states.

Please identify the group correctly.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 11:14 AM

"Wow! That's a stunning smear job from Noa Bursie. I guess she's one of those people who would call her fellow Jews who support human rights for Palestinians, "self-hating Jews". "


I am sure she wouldn't. But it would see, to me at least, that she is also supporting human rights for the Jewish people too, and surely, one of those rights must be to be allowed to live in peace.

Israel has only ever wanted to live in peace. It has never been allowed to. That is not Israel's fault, but the fault of those who have continued to wage war upon her, and her people. Perhaps that incredibly important fact has been overlooked by many, at this present time.

What we are seeing is the result of Hamas leaders. 'Leaders' who hide behind and amongst their own people, regardless of their safety, not caring if innocent women, children and indeed men too, get killed and maimed in the process. Leaders? Pah! All that matters to these religious zealots, imo, is power, and the annihilation of Israel. And they will not stop, as has was proved, yet again, only last week. They will never stop. They have been brainwashed since birth. They are little more than killing machines, who happily walk amongst the dead and broken bodies of their own people, whilst putting those who have this escaped death and destruction, in even greater danger.

Read this part again:


"...There is a deep lie that permeates all things in this conflict. That Israel is labeled an "apartheid" society is an abuse of the term and a tremendous affront to those whose lives were destroyed by the institution of apartheid in South Africa. While there is a wealth of evidence to soundly disprove and discredit this accusation, one need look no further than the Israeli Knesset. There are twelve Palestinian ministers currently serving terms in the Israeli parliament. Name one nation in the entire Arab world that has a Jew serving in an official governmental capacity – one. There are Palestinian PARTIES within the Israeli Knesset - Balad and UAL. (I don't ever recall history recording indigenous African representatives within the apartheid government in South Africa.) Over one and a quarter million Palestinians live and function as full citizens within Israel's borders and attend schools, universities, social and religious activities, mosques, sports events, etc. across the broad spectrum of daily activities. Not ONE Jew lives in Gaza (except the kidnapped Israeli soldier, Gilad Shalit). The Nazis called that phenomenon, Judenrein. So, who are the racists?....."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 11:57 AM

I didn't identify the J Street group at all. What I posted about them came from their "about" page.


What Noa Bursie is doing is spreading a lot of racist and hatemongering lies about Arabs and about people who oppose the military occupation of the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem. The one about the Arab nations supporting the Nazis, for instance. This is what the Encyclopedia Britannica has to say about it...

"The Arabs of Palestine remained largely quiescent throughout the war. Amīn al-Ḥusaynī had fled—by way of Iraq, Iran, Turkey, and Italy—to Germany, whence he broadcast appeals to his fellow Arabs to ally with the Axis powers against Britain and Zionism. Yet the mufti failed to rally Palestinian Arabs to the Axis cause. Although some supported Germany, the majority supported the Allies, and approximately 23,000 Arabs enlisted in the British forces (especially in the Arab Legion)."

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/439645/Palestine/45070/World-War-II


And she is also trying to make it look like anyone who supports human rights for Palestinians is an anti-Semite (another oft repeted hatemongering lie). Considering the fact that there are many thousands of Jews who support human rights for Palestinians (possibly millions), she must either think that Jews who do that are anti-Semites, or self-hating Jews.

There are a lot of people who believe that Israel deserves to live in peace, but that this is not what the government of Israel has in mind for Israel at this time, and that, instead, it will opt for war, as it always has, in order to increase the size of its borders, and to clear the non-Jews out of the areas that it wants for itself. I happen to be one of those. Calling me an anti-Semite because of that belief on my part is most definitely a smear, and a smear with no basis in reality. People like that use the term anti-Semite as a way of silencing dissent. That is not a legitimate use of the term anti-Semite.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 12:22 PM

I think the Government of Israel has a very hard time when rockets are being fired at their country. What are they supposed to do, just sit there and let it happen?

I don't think she's saying that at all. I think she's pointing out that in Israel there are many Palestinians, living and working alongside Jews. She doesn't seem to have any problem with that at all. She then goes on to say that this way forward is not happening in Palestine.

It's true.

I'm not trying to twist her words. I agree with much of what she has to say. What you are stating is your interpetation of her words, not her words as fact.

And tell me, if Gaza did eventually come under Israel, and Arab and Jew were working, living and loving alongside one another, as they already are in some parts of Israel, would that be a bad thing? Or is it better to have Gaza forever filled with Hamas and their utter hatred of all Jews, alongside their desire to have their own people killed and maimed, and their wish to annihilate the State of Israel?

Personally, I'd far rather see people living in peace and harmony. The Israelis are already doing this with Palestinians. Look back at my post about Aliza Hava, look at the thread on the Peace Oil products which are produced in Israel by both Arab and Jew combined.

Together is the way forward, not apart.

Until Hamas can see that, there is nothing Israel can do but continue to protect the people within her borders. To do that, she has to stop the rockets from being fired...and to do THAT, she has to target where they are coming from, and of course, the wonderful leaders of Palestine have placed their rockets all around their people.

HOW can you possibly deal with people who are not just hellbent on killing their 'enemy' but on killing their own people too?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 12:31 PM

It's also not anti-Semitic to say that Israel practices apartheid. Ronnie Kasrils, a South African politician, says that in his opinion, what Israel is doing to the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza is worse than South African apartheid...

http://www.mg.co.za/article/2007-05-21-israel-2007-worse-than-apartheid

But it is apartheid. Palestinians in the West Bank are confined to tiny bantustans that are separated one from the other by Jewish-only settlements that are guarded by the IDF, and that are accessed by Jewish-only roads, and the majority of the Palestinians' water is confiscated by the government of Israel for the use of the settlers. People in the West Bank don't even have enough water to wash themselves, while the settlers use as much water as they want to water their lawns and fill their swimming pools. People in the West Bank have to go through innumerable checkpoints just to get from their homes to their places of work, or to school, or to the doctor or the store, and they are often kept waiting there for hours and even days. Sometimes they aren't allowed through at all, and for no particular reason. Just on the whim of the guards at the checkpoints. They are often humiliated and abused by the guards, and sometimes they even die or give birth at the checkpoints because the guards won't let them through. These checkpoints don't keep Palestinians out of Israel. They are located deep inside of the West Bank.

The settlers in the West Bank regularly abuse the Palestinians and they shoot at them without suffering any consequences. They also prevent the Palestinians from being able to access their olive groves to harvest the olives, preventing the Palestinians from having their livelihood.

I think if Noa Bursie genuinely values human life, as she says she does, she would come back with an entirely different perspective on the situation if she were to ever go and spend time in the West Bank or Gaza living among the Palestinians and seeing for herself what they are experiencing.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 12:35 PM

I, personally, am not against Israel annexing Gaza and the West Bank if the non-Jewish Palestinians would be given exactly the same rights as Jews. But the government of Israel doesn't want that because if they did that, they would lose the Jewish majority in Israel.

The reason rockets are being fired into Israel from Gaza is because the government of Israel has been waging a war against the civilians of Gaza with its total blockade, not allowing any of the basic necessities of life to go in to Gaza. The people there are starving. People who value human life don't do that sort of thing to other human beings.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 12:37 PM

"if Gaza did eventually come under Israel, and Arab and Jew were working, living and loving alongside one another, as they already are in some parts of Israel, would that be a bad thing? That might well be the best way forward both for Gaza and for the West Bank, in a one-state solution.

The main opposition to that would be likely to come from people on the Israelis side.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 01:05 PM

They may so self-describe...but they are so much more than a peace movement, as a visit to their page over the past year plus would attest.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 01:10 PM

"The main opposition to that [a one state solution] would be likely to come from people on the Israelis side."

This is true. As I pointed out before, a one state solution is a Palestine state solution within a generation...two at the most. Israel commits national suicide to agree to such an arrangement, but what the hey?!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 01:35 PM

"National suicide"

Many white South Africans said that kind of thing when it came to talk about recognising non-whites as fellow citizens.

And it's also the kind of language which the BNP likes to use.

I doubt if a one-state solution will in fact emerge, but if I lived in that part of the world, whether as an Israeli or a Palestinian, that would be the one I would prefer.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 01:49 PM

The difference, McGrath, is that South African whites had never lived under Black rule, and so did not know what to expect. Nelson mandela was an exceptional leader.

Jews, on the other hand, had centuries of rule under Arab, Ottoman (Muslim) majorities, and the British Mandate in Palestine. History show this not to have been good for Jews. And so far there has been no Palestinian Mandela.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 01:59 PM

Europe has a far far worse history of persecution of Jews than Islamic countries have.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 02:03 PM

"The reason rockets are being fired into Israel from Gaza is because the government of Israel has been waging a war against the civilians of Gaza with its total blockade, not allowing any of the basic necessities of life to go in to Gaza. The people there are starving. People who value human life don't do that sort of thing to other human beings."


But Hamas are happily watching their OWN PEOPLE being killed, Carol, and THEY are the very cause of it, because they store their rockets amongst their people!

SURELY, if they had feeling for the men, women and children of Palestine, the very ones they are supposed to be caring about, they'd store their weapons as far away from civilian populations as they can manage?

They *WNAT* Israel to be hated around the world for bombing innocent civilians, whislt refusing to accept that the reason Israel so often has to do this, is because of where they, Hamas, store and fire their rockets.

HOW can you stand up for people who do that? I don't understand. How can the world refuse to demand that Hamas stop doing this. How come the Palestinian people themselves don't demand it?

ALL Israel ever wanted was to be left in peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 02:16 PM

Excepting the Holocaust, I might agree with you, McGrath. But in the ebb and flow of history, when Jews were tolerated in Europe, they were less so in Islamic lands; the converse appears to be true when Jews were not treated well in Europe.

That aside, however, I am speaking particularly and specifically about Jews in Palestine. Ironically, after the Roman destruction of Jewry in Judea (and renaming the area Palestine) the Jewish remnant never had it well in their own homeland...whether under Christian or Muslim rule. And history tells us that will happen there again under if there is single-state solution.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 02:25 PM

You can't actually get that far away from civilians in a ghetto.

But no disagreement - it would be far better if there weren't any Palestinians firing rockets at Israel. It is not a sensible or right thing to do, and it is just makes things worse (Hamas are not in fact the only people involved, a point which gets ignored). Virtually everyone agrees that.

However some people who think that believe that the same is true of Israeli bombs and shells and of the blockade on essential supplies. Others think that such Israeli actions should be supported.

It is right to try to understand why people on both sides behave the way they do. But that is not the same thing as saying that what they do is right. And that applies every bit as much to Israel as it to Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: robomatic
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 04:19 PM

Well, more rockets out of Gaza, and reportedly Israelis have dropped warning notes on folks living near known supply tunnels.

It ain't over.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 06:40 PM

Hey CarolC a simple question could you plese respond:

"on the subject of "ethnic cleansing"; "genocide" and the like could you please provide some Arab population statistics for Israel, Gaza and the West Bank from 1948 to the present day? I mean if Israel has been engaged in this wholesale slaughter of innocents as you all claim I would have thought that after such prodigious efforts over the last 60 years Palestinian Arabs would be rather thin on the ground. But somehow I don't think that they are - any reason for that??"

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 06:58 PM

Driving people into exile isn't necessarily the same thing as killing them.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: robomatic
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 07:10 PM

PRECISELY McGrath! they are alive to find new homes. Beats by a longshot being liquidated.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 07:36 PM

Kevin, CarolC, don't avoid the question!!

Please tell us all the statistics relating to the size of the palestinian population both in Israel and in Gaza and the West Bank from 1948 until today.

You have shouted it from the roof-tops that Israel has been engaged in "ethnic cleansing" and in a concentrated campaign of "genocide" so can you please explain why the population of Arab Palestinians has increased in all three areas??

If you cannot explain the population increase will you please cease and desist from claiming that there is in fact any campaign of "ethinic ceansing" or "genocide" being undertaken by the Israeli Government.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 07:57 PM

High birth rate, Teribus? Maybe Israel's adherence to "Western Culture" includes an adherence to the western fashion for having tiny families of 1, maybe 2 kids.

While cultures derided as 'traditional' continue to have high birthrates, we in the West on the other hand have slowly been breeding ourselves downwards. Priority of career over family, late start in having families, high rates of abortion and contraception have all resulted in almost zero percent birthrates in many European countries (by which I mean the number of births that exceed / replace the number of mortalities every year). The same pattern can be found in the US despite some modest growth in population there (population growth should be a lot higher).

Dunno, but it might explain some of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 08:25 PM

The Likud party opposes a two state solution. From their platform...

http://www.knesset.gov.il/elections/knesset15/elikud_m.htm

"The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river."


If Likud is elected this time around, we will know that the majority of Israelis also oppose a two state solution.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 08:35 PM

First of all, I do not stand up for Hamas. But I do understand why they do what they do, and I don't agree with anyone's assertions that what Hamas does is any worse than what the government of Israel does. Nor do I accept the assertion that what Hamas does is unprovoked. I do disagree with their methods of waging their resistance, but their resistance is legitimate.

Secondly, they cannot help but store weapons near civilians. There is no part of Gaza that is not near civilians. Gaza is the most densely populated patch of land in the world. And I don't agree that the Palestinians should not have weapons with which to defend themselves.

Hamas is more concerned with ending the Israeli occupation of the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem than they are with spreading hate toward Israel. They have said that if the Palestinians vote in a referendum for a two state solution using the pre-1967 borders (with some possibility of some land swaps), Hamas will not oppose it. The government of Israel needs to demonize Hamas because it is using them to prevent a negotiated peace settlement. The government of Israel has no intention of allowing the Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem to remain there. They intend to either remove and/or kill them all, and then annex those areas without having to risk losing their Jewish majority.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 08:37 PM

I chuckle at the notion of people accusing the Palestinians of not having a Nelson Mandela (or a Gandhi, which is another one people like to say). I think the real problem is that Israel has no Abraham Lincoln.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 08:53 PM

Someone else has answered the question of population for me. I am reminded of a story that I think was told by Woody Guthrie about some rabbits that are chased into a log by hunters or something. One of them says to the other, "What do we do now?", and the other rabbit says, "I guess we'll just have to stay here til we outnumber them."

I have not said that the government of Israel has committed genocide. I have said that they are in the process of committing genocide. Time will tell if they will finish what they have started. If Likud gets elected, I think there's a distinct possibility that they will.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 09:30 PM

"I doubt if a one-state solution will in fact emerge, but if I lived in that part of the world, whether as an Israeli or a Palestinian, that would be the one I would prefer."

Safe to say. You don't live there.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 09:33 PM

Glad I could provide a chuckle for you, CarolC. It was, however, directly responsive and on point to a statement made to me (and everyone) about Black rule in South Africa (the operative words being 'directly' and 'responsive'.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 10:12 PM

01 Feb 09 - 08:53 PM CarolC wrote:
"I have not said that the government of Israel has committed genocide."

31 Jan 09 - 03:32 AM CarolC wrote:
"There is nothing the Palestinians can or could do to make the government of Israel stop its ethnic cleansing(and in the case of Gaza, the ongoing genocide)..."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 11:01 PM

That's correct. "Committed" is in the past tense, and denotes an already accomplished genocide. "Ongoing", is in the present tense, and denotes a genocide that is still underway. There is a big difference between these two things.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 12:00 AM

CarolC, I knew that was going to be your mealy mouthed answer. What you have said is a difference without a distinction. Either Israel is committing genocide or it is not. Either Israel has committed genocide in the process of committing genocide or it has not committed genocide. Have the guts to say exactly what you mean straight out.

I don't even know what you mean by an accomplished genocide. But you'll explain in your inimitable way. Was Hitler's an accomplished genocide? Was the Turks' an accomplished genocide? Was the Hutus' (or Tutsis') an accomplished genocide? They are, after all, past tense. And if yes, doesn't that stretch the meaning of accomplished beyond recognition?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 12:48 AM

When Hitler was beginning his extermination of European Jews, he had not yet committed genocide. But he was in the process of committing genocide. I don't always have time to choose my words with utmost care, but when I use words that are as emotionally loaded as the word genocide is, I do use them with utmost care. The distinction is important because when a government is embarking on a course of genocide, it is not too late to stop it. But if we don't recognize that it is an ongoing genocide, we might not take it as seriously as we ought to and need to, and we might not do what is needed to make it stop until it is too late, as we saw for instance, in Europe during WWII.

In some parts of occupied Palestine, there is an abundance of graffiti saying things like "Arabs to the gas chambers" and "Gass the Arabs" and "Kill all Arabs", frequently accompanied by a "Star of David". Although Palestinians request that this graffiti be removed, they have found that the only way to get the government to do anything about it is to paint a swastika nearby as well. Then the graffiti comes down very quickly. This is the same kind of environment in which genocides become reality - especially when the behavior in question has the tacit approval of the government that is in control of the area.

When a government starves a civilian population, one can't really say that a genocide has been committed while relatively few numbers of people have died. However, starving a civilian population is a genocidal policy, and therefore constitutes an ongoing genocide as long as that policy is in place.

I realize, however, that it is much more emotionally satisfying to say that my words are mealy mouthed and project onto my words some other meaning than the one I intended.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 01:57 AM

"When Hitler was beginning his extermination of European Jews, he had not yet committed genocide. But he was in the process of committing genocide."

Do you work hard at making up your own syntax? As soon as Hitler and his cronies, German and Palestinian [See 'Icon of Evil'], decided on the final solution and killed the first Jew, they were both in the PROCESS and the ACT of committing genocide. And I'm not even considering the masses of Jews killed in Germany before the Final Solution was implemented. There is no…repeat…there is NO difference. You are 'choosing' your words so as to say nothing.

"When a government starves a civilian population, one can't really say that a genocide has been committed while relatively few numbers of people have died."

At what number can one say a genocide is being committed? If you believe that the Israeli government is starving Gaza with the express intent of killing as many people as possible for no other reason then they are Palestinian, then you ARE implicating Israel in genocide, whether only one Gazan dies, or hundreds of thousand die. Again you said nothing in what you wrote. Are you afraid to say what you really think? I don't think so. But I do think you choose your words so you can't, to your way of thinking, be pinned down.

If Hamas had better rockets, and were better able to use them, and were able to kill thousands of Israelis, targeting as they do primarily civilian targets, would they then be committing genocide, or would they only be killing an enemy?

And I still don't know what you mean by an 'accomplished genocide'. I can hardly wait to find out. But I guess that will have to wait until tomorrow (Monday) night.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 01:57 AM

CarolC no-one has answered my question about the Arab populations of Gaza, Israel and the West Bank. Nickhere might have thought that he was providing an answer by mentioning something about Israeli birth rates but that was not the question that was asked.

If, as you say that Israel for the last 60 years has been engaged in a concerted effort of "ethnic cleansing" and "ongoing genocide" can you please tell us all how the Arab population in Gaza, Israel itself and in the West Bank has grown at the rate that it has done since 1948?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 10:11 AM

At the point in which a deliberate strategy or policy is developed to eliminate a population through any means that involves killing, and that strategy or policy is put into practice, that is the point at which a genocide becomes "in progress". However, at that point it cannot be said that a genocide has been committed. Only that one is in the process of being committed.

I don't know how many people need to be killed in order for it to be described as a genocide that has been committed. But I don't think anyone would say that Hitler had committed genocide had he only succeeded in killing a few thousand Jews before being stopped. Nevertheless, while he was killing them, it would have been accurate to say that he was in the process of committing genocide. Remember the definition of genocide...

Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group.

Hamas is not trying to eliminate the category of people known as Jews. They are trying to remove the military occupation from their country. The government of Israel, on the other hand, has been in the process of eliminating Palestinians as a people since before Israel became a state. They have been doing it both in terms of ethnically cleansing them, as well as through a deliberate denial of their existence and history. And now, since they are deliberately denying the people in Gaza the most basic fundamentals of the ability to sustain life, they are also in the process of eliminating the Palestinians as a people through deliberate killing. That is a genocidal act even though at this point relatively few people have so far been killed.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 10:13 AM

I love this one from today's Jews sans frontieres...

http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com/2009/02/monthly-antisemitic-cartoon-rabbi-hier.html

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 11:33 AM

"But I don't think anyone would say that Hitler had committed genocide had he only succeeded in killing a few thousand Jews before being stopped." - CarolC

I would never have had you pegged as a holocaust denier Carol - 6,000,000+ cannot or could not in any way be passed off as "killing a few thousand Jews".

"The government of Israel, on the other hand, has been in the process of eliminating Palestinians as a people since before Israel became a state." - CarolC

Really CarolC?? When exactly?? If memory serves me correctly the only time the Jewish Settlers and latterly the Israelis ever fought their Arabs neighbours was immediately in response to an attack by those neighbours on them - the concept is known as self-defence.

By the bye CarolC how many Palstinians did the Israelis deliberately kill today??

Oh CarolC, Here are those population figures:

Late Ottoman Period 1851 to 1919:
- 1851 - total population 340,000 - 327,000 Arabs - 13,000 Jews
- 1919 - total population 565,000 - 500,000 Arabs - 65,000 Jews

British Mandate 1921 to 1948:
- 1922 - total population 816,000 - 723,000 Arabs - 93,000 Jews
- 1948 - total population 1,969,000 - 1,319,000 Arabs - 650,000 Jews

OK then CarolC a fierce degree of "genocide" and "ethnic cleansing" went on before Israel came into being. The Arab population has almost doubled.

Post Mandate to present:
- 1950 - total population 2,375,100 - 1,172,100 Arabs - 1,203,000 Jews
- 2005 - total population 10,414,800 - 5,139,100 Arabs - 5,275,700 Jews

In 1950 the percentage of Jews making up the total population was 50.65%

In 2005 the percentage of Jews making up the total population was 50.65%

Rather weird figures considering all that "genocide" and "ethnic cleansing".

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 12:28 PM

People who are unable to understand a hypothetical probably shouldn't be posting here. Try to understand the difference between these two statements...

"But I don't think anyone would say that Hitler had committed genocide had he only succeeded in killing a few thousand Jews before being stopped."

"But I don't think anyone would say that Hitler had committed genocide because he had only succeeded in killing a few thousand Jews before being stopped."

The first is what I actually said. The second is what a very desperate person is pretending I said.

We don't know how many Gazan's Israel has killed today. There's no way for us to know at this time how many people died today because of Israel's blockade of Gaza, which, by the way, is not in any way defensive in nature. Allowing food and other essentials to enter Gaza does not protect Israelis from anything. It is offensive in nature and is designed to eliminate a civilian population. Which is genocide.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 12:32 PM

http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2009/01/22/american-jews-oppose-israeli-policy-in-gaza/

http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2009/01/23/michael-ratner-on-gaza/

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 12:34 PM

Adolf Eichmann was a war criminal brought eventually to justice in Israel.
War crimes were also committed in Gaza by Israeli soldiers who attacked civilians and women and children in particular killing hundreds and maiming thousands.
When will these war criminals be brought to justice?

This atrocity must not be filed away and forgotten.The Palestinians in Gaza, a city of refugees,must know that the killers of their children have their day in an international court of law.

I understand that Israeli battalion commanders have been told to wear face scarves to hide their identities when facing the tv cameras because some have been identified as possible war criminals and may face arrest in Europe in years to come.

Already one Israeli war planner faced a very rough reception in north London last week when dozens of protestors branded him a war criminal and tried to arrest him at a meeting.

We can't have one law for the Mugabes of this world and no law for the child killers who did their dirty work with tanks,jet bombers and sniper fire.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 12:45 PM

The International Criminal Court is right now looking into the possibility that it may have jurisdiction over Gaza because Israel has said that it has no authority over Gaza, and the Palestinians are petitioning it to hear their case. If so, accusations against Israel of war crimes committed in Gaza will be investigated and possibly prosecuted in the ICC.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 01:16 PM

Does that also mean that accusations against Hamas of war crimes committed in Gaza will be investigated and possibly prosecuted in the ICC.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 02:50 PM

Carole makes a very good point in her above posting.

The Israeli military is an illegally occupying military force that has behaved with the utmost brutality in the occupied Gaza.

It has imposed a blockade on the city of around a million and a half people and alarming reports are filtering out of malnutrition and hunger and i am sure cholera and diptheria cannot be far behind.

Israel has waged an illegal chemical,biological and conventional war against the Gazans and God only knows what other weapons have been tested out on the flesh and blood of the children of that city.

In answer to Teribus above,the Palestinians have been resisting an occupying army and it is no crime to resist an invader.

Check out the casualty list: 14 Isaeli dead..11 of whom were soldiers...there were thousands of Palestinians maimed ,over a million terrorised and over a thousand killed.Apparently the number of actual Palestinian fighters killed in action was quite low.

Israel waged its war against civilians massacring them in their houses with bombs and tank shells,slaughtering them in UN schools,blasing their clinics and hospitals and shooting them in their dozens as they tried to flee under white flags.

I know the zionists on mudcat won't agree but there is huge anger across the world and people want to see those who planned and executed the mass murders brought to justice.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 03:05 PM

"...there is huge anger across the world and people want to see those who planned and executed the mass murders brought to justice."


Then ask Hamas to step forward and explain why they have deliberately had their people killed, by putting their weapons right deep amongst them, knowing that Israel would have to strike back and strike the place where those weapons were coming from.

You may get some interesting answers.

Or..

You may get.....absolutely nothing...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 03:15 PM

Israel has not signed on to the ICC, so it cannot try to bring any cases before that court. So my guess is that Hamas will not be tried in the ICC.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 05:50 PM

At the point in which a deliberate strategy or policy is developed to eliminate a population through any means that involves killing, and that strategy or policy is put into practice, that is the point at which a genocide becomes "in progress". However, at that point it cannot be said that a genocide has been committed. Only that one is in the process of being committed." 02 Feb 09 - 10:11 AM from CarolC

That is just about the most Orwellian statement you've ever made, especially in light of your quoting a definition of genocide later in your post.

When one cuts through the verbage, the quotation marks and the italics, what you truly have said is, "When the strategy or policy [of purposefully and systematically killing a population] is put into practice, it IS genocide." (and yes, I know you did not actually write those words, so don't tell me I put words in your mouth.)

If that is what you believe is happening, say so! Straight out! Take the kudos from those who agree with you, and the heat from those who disagree with you.

And I still don't know what you mean by an 'accomplished genocide'. I thought by now you'd have made a definition up.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 05:51 PM

Israel does not have to bring charges, anybody can.

The war crimes charges that can be laid at the door of Hamas are:

- Treatment of prisoners of war
- Deliberately endangering the civilian population by storing arms, munitions and explosives where civilians are used as human shields
- Mounting attacks from buldings containing civilians
- Deliberate indiscriminate targeting of civilian centres of population.

Very pleased to here the Israeli PM's warning of the intended use of "disproportionate" force in response to future rocket attacks from Gaza, I particularly liked the bit about "tit-for-tat" now being over - not before time.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 05:54 PM

Just a reminder since I don't do HTML, the italicized words in your post were 'has been committed'.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 06:20 PM

er Lizzie,
Gaza is a surrounded strip of land.I believe it is about 40 miles long and a couple of miles wide. It is the most densely packed place in the world. It is surrounded by barbed wire and the sea.

Its borders are controlled by Israel which has total air dominance and a navy which is shameless and ruthless in pounding ,for example ,picnicers on the beach but civilian targets in general.Its only airport was destroyed a few years ago by the Israelis.

The Palestinians have a few thousand lightly armed fighters with rifles and mortars and not much else apart from those home made rockets which are like super fireworks and which mainly land on open spaces.

Are these fighters supposed to line up on some open field to be blown up?

I remember the Americans used to say that those pesky vietcong would not fight fair with their hit and run tactics ..and the americans lost in the end.

I dont think the Palestinians can beat the might of Israel backed by the USA and the UK on their own but it is also clear that Israel simply can't pulverise the Palestinians into submission.The Palestinians under the Israeli solution either die slowly ..or they die quickly.

The Israelis for all their superiority were also unable to free Shalit presumably because they were unwilling to venture on foot deep into the heart of Gaza...That man has suffered enough! The Palestinians say they will release him after the illegal blockade is lifted and Palestinian prisoners are released simultaneously. There surely is the basis for a ceasefire or truce but it is Israeli intransigence in the pursuit of victory which is the obstacle to progress.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 06:30 PM

I'll try to simplify it for the slow learners.


Past tense:

Committed genocide


Present tense:

Committing genocide


What's the difference between these two things? When Hitler was systematically killing Jews, at what point was he committing genocide?   Was it while the killing was ongoing? Or was it only after the last Jew was killed by Hitler that what he was doing could be described as genocidal? Or was there some magic number beyond which his systematic and deliberate extermination of human beings became genocide, but not before?

Extra points for those who are capable of articulating an intelligent response without resorting to insulting language (a lot to ask for, I know).

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 06:31 PM

Is This What It's All Been About?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 06:35 PM

Yes, anybody can if they are signatories to the court. The question is, is there any signatory to the court who will bring charges against Hamas? Maybe. Then again, maybe not.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 06:41 PM

That would explain all the rhetoric about "Iranian backed Hamas" that Israel and the US media were using as their drumbeat for the last several weeks.

Israel has to work fast to destroy Iran soon because Iran's going to be having elections this summer and it doesn't look to good for Ahmadinejad to get reelected. Without Ahmadinejad as their boogey man, it will be a lot more difficult for them to make a case for bombing the shit out of Iran, especially with Obama in office.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: bobad
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 07:03 PM

"Gaza is a surrounded strip of land.I believe it is about 40 miles long and a couple of miles wide. It is the most densely packed place in the world." ifor

Let us now dispel famous myths.

"here's a useful corrective here to the lie that Gaza is the most crowded place on Earth:

    The UK politician George Galloway wrote in The Glasgow Record last month that the Gaza Strip is "the most densely populated piece of earth on the planet." Galloway wrote that 1.5 million Palestinians live there.

    Daoud Kuttab, a Palestinian journalist currently teaching at Princeton, wrote March 26 that Gaza is "one of the most densely populated places on earth, with 3,823 people per square kilometre." Kuttab's figure is in line with recent Gaza population estimates of 1.4 million.

    If Galloway's estimate of 1.5 million Gaza population is correct, this is almost 4,200 people per square kilometer. The Central Intelligence Agency projects that the Gaza population will reach 1,537,269 in July. This would bring the density to 4,270 people per square kilometer.

But this isn't even as crowded as Tel Aviv. Gaza had plenty of problems. But they are nothing - nothing - to do with population density:


    Both Singapore and Hong Kong have more than 6,000 people per square kilometer. Tel Aviv has more than 7,000 people per square kilometer. If you count the suburbs of Tel Aviv, the metropolitan area with its population of 2.3 million has a density of more than 5,000 people per square kilometer, which is considerably more crowded than the Gaza Strip as reckoned by Galloway or Kuttab or the CIA.

    Selected estimates of population density:

    Mumbai
    27,209 people/sq km
    http://www.mcgm.gov.in/

    Kolkata
    24,000 people/sq km
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolkata

    Tel Aviv
    7,445 people/sq km
    (385,000 people, 51.8 sq km)

    Hong Kong
    6,352 people/sq km
    http://www.gov.hk/en/about/abouthk/factsheets/docs/population.pdf

    Singapore
    6,252 people/sq km
    http://www.singstat.gov.sg/stats/keyind.html

    London
    5,100 people/sq km

    Tel Aviv metro area including suburbs
    5,050 people/sq km
    (2.3 million people, 453 sq km)

    Moscow
    4,900 people/sq km

    Tokyo/Yokahama
    4,750 people/sq km

    Warsaw
    4,300 people/sq km

    Gaza Strip per CIA projection
    4,270 people/sq km
    (1,537,269 population July 2008, 360 sq km)

    Gaza Strip per George Galloway
    4,167 people/sq km
    (1.5 million people, 360 sq km)

    Gaza Strip per Daoud Kuttab
    3,822 people/sq km

    The numbers for London, Tel Aviv metro area, Moscow, Tokyo/Yokohama and Warsaw are from the City Mayors site."
    http://www.citymayors.com/statistics/largest-cities-density-125.html

http://www.spectator.co.uk/stephenpollard/631851/gaza-is-not-too-crowded.thtml

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 07:14 PM

"Was it while the killing was ongoing? Or was it only after the last Jew was killed by Hitler that what he was doing could be described as genocidal?"

It WAS genocide when he killed the first Jew (and others by the way) after planning a systematic extermination. During the time he was exterminating Jews, it WAS genocide. And when the killing of Jews was ended, it Was Still genocide. Even if there might have been a day, perhaps Weinachten, during that period when not a single person was exterminated, it was still genocide. Nice try using the word 'genocidal' to try to obfuscate your point....but no cigar.

"Slow learners": is that some sort of ad hominum attack that you criticize others for?

And I still don't know what you mean by an 'accomplished genocide'. I'm beginning to think you don't either.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 07:21 PM

More on the definition of the word, genocide...

        
"It is a very specific term, referring to violent crimes committed against groups with the intent to destroy the existence of the group. Human rights, as laid out in the U.S. Bill of Rights or the 1948 United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights, concern the rights of individuals.

In 1944, a Polish-Jewish lawyer named Raphael Lemkin (1900-1959) sought to describe Nazi policies of systematic murder, including the destruction of the European Jews. He formed the word "genocide" by combining geno-, from the Greek word for race or tribe, with -cide, from the Latin word for killing. In proposing this new term, Lemkin had in mind "a coordinated plan of different actions aiming at the destruction of essential foundations of the life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves." The next year, the International Military Tribunal held at Nuremberg, Germany, charged top Nazis with "crimes against humanity." The word "genocide" was included in the indictment, but as a descriptive, not legal, term.
        

On December 9, 1948, in the shadow of the Holocaust and in no small part due to the tireless efforts of Lemkin himself, the United Nations approved the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. This convention establishes "genocide" as an international crime, which signatory nations "undertake to prevent and punish." It defines genocide as:

[G]enocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 07:22 PM

Oh, ok. I stand corrected then.

What Israel is doing to the Palestnians is genocide.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 07:27 PM

Bobad, I'm a slow learner (CarolC told me so) so let me see if I understand your last post.

Are you telling us at Mudcat, that despite the propagandist reporting re the Gaza Strip, that small area does qualify to be on David Letterman's Top Ten List of most densely populated areas (per square kilometer)? Did you also cite sources so that others can check them? Did you even revise downward the figure for Tel Aviv so that it wouldn't seem like you were exaggerating?

You know, I think even this slow learner learned something today.

Great bit of research, Bobad.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 07:48 PM

CarolC the Orwellian mealy mouth said so. Some people can dish it out...


On another note...

Hasbara online

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 08:09 PM

...that small area does qualify to be on David Letterman's Top Ten...
should read: DOES NOT

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 08:47 PM

Gee whiz, golly, I was just funning with you in my response to Bobad. I guess you didn't see the humor. It's okay.

Regarding your recent posting of definitions of Genocide" Are the Bold clauses/sentences your emphasis within the defintions? Are they found that way in a secondary source that you used? Or are they actually written that way in the original documents?

What ever the case, I obviously do not believe those portions emphasized reflect what Israel is doing in Gaza. What I believe is going on, and what some others here also agree, is that Israel is acting directly on provocations, and trying to be as accurate as possible in the targets they attack. Do they sometimes hit the wrong target? Unfortunately they probably do, sometimes. That is certainly not genocide in any of the definitions you posted.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 10:35 PM

I bolded what was written. I did not change anything.


The blockade targets civilians. When the basic necessities for life such as food, water, shelter, and medical care are withheld from a civilian population, there is no making excuses about accuracy. In such a case the civilians are being targeted. That would fall under this category...

[G]enocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 10:40 PM

I forgot to include the link with my 02 Feb 09 - 07:21 PM post...

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10007043

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 01:51 AM

Hamas War Crime:

Treatment of Prisoners - Gilat Shalit

"That man has suffered enough! The Palestinians say they will release him after the illegal blockade is lifted and Palestinian prisoners are released simultaneously." Guest ifor.

It is illegal to take hostages and demand your enemy comply with demands in exchange for that prisoners well being or release.

Other illegal actions relating to his imprisonment are that he has no direct contact with his family or with the International Committee of the Red Cross.

Nobody knows whether he is alive or dead - last word was that he meant less than a cat to his captors - case of mind over matter eh CarolC, Guest ifor, they don't mind because he doesn't matter.

This of course will most likely turn out with the return not of Gilat Shalit but with the return of the body of Gilat Shalit.

If there is one law for the goose it should be the same law for the gander. Perhaps Israel should treat their Hamas prisoners in the same manner.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 06:20 AM

The Palestinians consider Shalit to be a prisoner of war..and I think they are right to do so.

He could have been released ages ago but Israel would not release its prisoners in exchange.

By my rough and ready reckoning there are thousands of palestinians languishing in Israeli jails.They are being held illegally by an occupying power which refuses to obey UN resolutions to leave the occupied territories.

Israel has also held women and children in its prisons and the jail ,I think called Kiam, controlled by its proxies under Israeli supervision in south Lebanon was a by word for cruelty and torture.

Human Rights groups have had plenty to say about Israeli torture,mistreatment or neglect of Palestinians prisoners.
I am not even sure if the Red Cross has access to Israeli prisons.

It must be hell for Shalit in his jail and I want to see him released. I also want those nameless Palestinians held in Israeli jails to walk free at the same time.

The problem is the state of Israel has become a killing machine and is in the contol of extremists who believe they can bludgeon the palestinians into abject surrender....the release of a single Israeli prisoner is not a priority for Livni and those other blood soaked murderers.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 10:29 AM

Over the years there have been plenty of prisoner exchanges between Israel and Palestine. Usually it is on the order of 200-300 Palestinians for a couple of Israelis. Several times it has been live Palestinians for a couple of Israeli corpses (so they could receive proper Jewish burial rites).

One wonders how many of the thousands of Palestinians released have returned to the planning, leading, fighting or otherwise supporting Palestinian acts of war and terror. We know what the corpses have done, 100%!

When Israel finds the time right, prisoners will be exchanged once again.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Hugo
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 10:59 AM

To John
Unfortunately for Shalit your sentiments are the sentiments of the ruling group in Israel...and that could well mean a long period of confinement for Cplr Shalit .
You call the Palestinians actions "acts of war and terror" but I want to know how are the Palestinians supposed to defend the theft of their land,the demolishment of their homes by those giant bulldozers,the shooting of their young people with rubber bullets, the economic blockade of starving Gaza the numerous daily racist humiliations that go to make up this never ending illegal occupation by a military force?
Is there any" legal" form of Palestinian resistance to this continued illegality by this violent state?

Hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: robomatic
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 11:08 AM

If Israel is trying to commit Genocide on Palestinians, then it should be using the same technique on the polar bears. They would triple their population in a few years.

Hamas is in a state of war with Israel, does not go by any standards of warfare such as Geneva, and does not hesitate to kill their own people without benefit of a trial if they are considered a threat in any way. They have killed far more Palestinians than the Israelis, including suspected informers and sympathizers, violaters of the Hamas interpretation of Islamic law, members of Fatah, and, of course, civilians who they use as shields and cover.

Carol, your version of the history of Israel and Israeli borders is severely colored everytime you give it because you include motivations you ascribe to Israel as opposed to just staying with facts. The war of Israeli Independence was fought against Arab States which were well armed and staffed, and the Palestinians for the most part fled in obedience to broadcasts by the Mufti who wanted them safely out of the way while the Jews were dealt with. This much is fact. What isn't fact is your argument that in '48 the Jewish side was motivated by desire for more land. I think it is more likely they were motivated by survival.

That having been said, it is no crime for Israel to seek borders that insure her survival. Having absorbed a large population of displaced Jews, it is reasonable to expect Arab countries to absorb a similarly displaced ex-Palestinian population.

The one-sided viewpoint that Israel must absorb the Palestinians as well is a major obstacle to Peace. Israel is expected to retreat to former borders which were themselves determined by conflict, AS WELL AS accept in incoming population which will end its existence as a Jewish State.

If Israel is expected to accede to multiple demands, any one of which can lead to her destruction, why be surprised when she accedes to NONE of these demands?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: soulkat9
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 11:17 AM

World Peace

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 11:34 AM

Guest Hugo - I see you ignored my first two graphs as if I wrote about Shalit in a vacuum, but I expect responses like that.

As to how this unfortunate war can be ended?

Well, for starters, Hamas,, Hezbullah and Fatah can negotiate in good faith as did Egypt and Jordan, and implement any agreement decided. Israel thought Yassir Arafat was negotiating in good faith during the Oslo Accords and again during the 2000 Camp David brokered, by Bill Clinton.

But Arafat reneged on both! Another, Intifada began, perhaps with the secret blessing of Arafat.

Have you, GuestHugo, ever wondered what a wonderful country a Palestinian state might might be by now, where refugees become citizens, and where, perhaps in economic union with Israel, cities and towns flourish. Children go safely to school. Businesses prosper and jobs are available both in Palestine and in Israel.

Palestine reaps the whirlwind for Arafat's perfidy, moral weakness and greed as Palestinian leader--16 years of wars and killings. I despise his memory for what he did to Palestine, and to Israel as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 12:41 PM

Israeli airstrikes respond to medium-range rocket

Aron Heller, Associated Press Writer – 31 mins ago AP –


AP JERUSALEM – A medium-range rocket from Gaza exploded in the Israeli city of Ashkelon on Tuesday, and witnesses said Israeli warplanes responded before nighftall with airstrikes on the tunnels used by the territory's militant Hamas rulers to smuggle in weapons and supplies.

The latest fighting came as Hamas delegates met in Cairo for talks with Egyptian officials trying to mediate a long-term truce with Israel.

The Grad rocket from Gaza was the first of its kind to be fired at the city of 122,000 since informal cease-fires were declared separately by Israel and Hamas two weeks ago at the end of Israel's bruising three-week-long offensive. The rocket exploded in an open space in the middle of the city and no one was injured, police said.

The Grad is distinctive from the home-made projectiles more commonly used by Hamas and smaller militant groups, as it is manufactured abroad, has greater reach and carries a more powerful payload.

Defense Minister Ehud Barak pledged that if Hamas held its fire Israel would do likewise, while violence would be met by violence.

"If there is quiet then there will be quiet," he told reporters during a tour of northern Israel's border with Lebanon. "If it is necessary to deal another, even stronger, blow then at the right time and in the right way an additional and stronger blow will be dealt."

Residents near the Gaza-Egypt border said they received telephone messages from the Israeli military ahead of the airstrikes warning them to leave their homes ahead the airstrike. Such warnings are becoming routine.

The recorded messages, in Arabic, said people who work in tunnels, live near them or are "giving logistical help to terrorists" should evacuate the area immediately, residents said.

Israel launched its Gaza offensive on Dec. 27 to halt near-daily rocket fire from Gaza at Israel targets. Sporadic rocket and mortar fire from Gaza has continued, however, prompting tough warnings of reprisal from Israeli leaders.

More than a dozen rockets and mortar shells slammed into Israel on Sunday. The following day Israel fired a missile at a car in the town of Rafah, killing a Palestinian militant, and bombed the nearby Gaza-Egypt border, seeking to destroy tunnels that Hamas uses to smuggle in weapons and supplies.

Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni pledged to keep hitting Hamas as long rockets continue to be fired at Israel, and she ruled out negotiations with Hamas.

"Terror must be fought with force and lots of force. Therefore we will strike Hamas," she said at a security conference Monday. "If by ending the operation we have yet to achieve deterrence, we will continue until they get the message."

Continued violence could work against Livni's government in the Feb. 10 general election and bolster hard-line opposition leader Benjamin Netanyahu, who is seen as the front-runner.

Ashkelon was hit by nearly 100 rockets during the Gaza fighting. Following Tuesday's rocket attack, a local parents' union called for classes to be called off. But city officials announced that school would be open as usual.

Netanyahu later visited the site and pledged to force regime change in Gaza if he is elected.

"A government led by me will topple the Hamas government in Gaza and bring peace and security to the south (of Israel)," his office quoted him as saying.

At negotiations in Cairo, Hamas' top demand is opening of Gaza's borders with Israel and Egypt. The crossings have remained sealed to all but a trickle of supplies since Hamas seized control of Gaza in June 2007 from its rivals in another Palestinian group.

The Hamas delegation, which includes officials from its exiled leadership in Syria, also was to be briefed by the Egyptians about their separate meetings with the Israelis. Hamas and Israel do not negotiate directly.

Israel does not want any deal that gives Hamas a role in controlling Gaza border crossings out of concern that that would permit continued weapons smuggling.

Israelis feared the threat of a two-front war with Lebanon's Hezbollah militia, which held its fire during the onslaught in Gaza. But the Israeli government believes Hezbollah is planning an attack against Israel, or Israelis abroad, to mark the Feb. 12 anniversary of the killing of a senior Hezbollah commander in a car bombing the militia blames on Israel.

The Israeli National Security Agency is warning all Israelis traveling abroad to be extra vigilant for fear of murder or kidnap attempts by Hezbollah agents.

Barak said Lebanon's government, which includes Hezbollah, could also face retaliation if Israel is attacked.

"Hezbollah is not just a terror organization running around the hills but also sits at the Cabinet table in Beirut," Barak said. "Therefore the Lebanese government bears overall responsibility and any attempt to attack Israel will be met with a response."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 01:18 PM

The version of history that is being colored is the one that paints the situation as if Israel is being asked to give up something that was its in the first place and that it is being asked to absorb people who were not there in the first place.

Right now, what I am saying, is not that Israel should be asked to take in anyone who is not there now. Even though someone keeps trying to frame the situation in those terms, that is a very dishonest way to frame it. What I am calling on Israel to do is to stop ethnically cleansing people from where they are now. And it's not my coloration of the situation to say that this is what they are doing and have intended to do all along. The leaders of Israel have made it clear that this was their plan since before Israel was even a state.

It is not in the least bit legal for Israel to expand its borders for any reason whatever. It is a violation of international law, to which Israel is a signatory, for it to expand its borders. It is illegal for it to take land by force. It is illegal for it to wage a military occupation of lands outside the pre-1967 borders. It is illegal for it to transfer its own population into areas that it occupies. So yes, it is most definitely a crime for Israel to expand its borders. And no matter how many times people repeat the lie that the Palestinians left voluntarily, that will not make it true.

Those people in Gaza: where do they come from, and why are they so mad?

The above link contains a day by day account (with pictures) of the Jewish taking of Jaffa by force, and it gives accounts of Palestinians fleeing (and being driven into the sea), more than four months before Israel even declared its independence.

The old lies are just that - lies. There is too much historical evidence available for people to be able to get away with repeating the standard Israeli propaganda lies any more, and the more people persist in trying to mislead the world by telling them, the more they convince the world that nothing Israel says on any subject should be believed.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 01:29 PM

I should rephrase this part...

"The above link contains a day by day account (with pictures) of the Jewish taking of Jaffa by force, and it gives accounts of Palestinians fleeing (and being driven into the sea), during the more than four months before Israel even declared its independence."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Hugo
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 02:26 PM

I have just read that one of Israel's leading right wing politicians...Avital Lieberman was a signed up member of the Kahane party...regarded even by aggressive zionists as a dangerous and basically mad outfit of gun crazed paramilitaries.
Lieberman's group believe they will do well in the elections.
Hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 02:54 PM

GuestHugo--

In the United States (I don't know where you're from, so you may not know this), Robert Byrd is the longest serving US Senator--55 years or more. Sen. Byrd was a high ranking official--Grand Cyclops--in the Ku Klux Klan, a group that regularly harassed and lynched Negroes...which is not the 'N' word they used. The KKK, and similar groups, still harass Blacks, less often lynching (or otherwise killing them). Some feel he has been a pretty good senator, but I disagree.

So your point about Avigdor (not Avitel) Lieberman is precisely what? It appears he was a member of Kach when he first moved to Israel, but it does not appear that he had any special status in the group.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Hugo
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 06:01 PM

My point is quite simple ...the emergence of Lieberman as a major player in Israel goes some way to showing how the mainstream politics of Israel have moved to the far right in recent years.

This is the man who is out to "get" the Israeli arab parties in the Knesset and the man is likely to emerge as a more central figure in Israeli politics after the election.

However,he will have to go a long way to beat the war crimes committed by the present group of child killers .

The news emerged today that Israel used a type of shell called a "fleshette" in densely packed Gaza.

I am no expert on these things but the shell is fired by a tank and consists of thousands of 4 cm sharp darts which maim and kill when the shell strikes its targets...apparently the darts scatter at speed over a large radius and one can only imagine the damage done in a street ,market or open space. They sound like a sophisticated nail bomb designed to kill and maim...and that is precisely what they did to young kids and women.

Livni and the rest of that wargang have to be held to account for their murderous acts...because it wasn't war it was barbarous crime against a civilian population which had nowhere to run to.
Hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 06:53 PM

There will be peace when Palestine leadership wants peace. When Jordan wanted peace, it got it; when Egypt wanted peace it got it.

Whether or not Lieberman will be a major player may depend in part on what Palestinians decide what the want. Palestine makes a lot of demands, but doesn't offer much in return--a prisoner here, a few Jewish dead there. In times of war, hardliners are more apt to be elected.

They do offer Jews the possibility of living in an Islamic dominated country. That's an offer to good to pass up! Christians had that deal in Lebanon until the 1970s; it worked rather well until the incursion of Palestinians, a state within a state, into that former oasis of the Mediterranean.

Lastly, when children are no longer used as direct or indirect shields there will be no more child killing.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 07:28 PM

"There will be peace when Palestine leadership wants peace. When Jordan wanted peace, it got it; when Egypt wanted peace it got it."

Wrong!!!!

There will be peace when Israel decieds to take it's foot off the neck of Palestinians & puts their heads inside a yoke, when they have been beaten so badly that they'll come to except slavery over extermination, when Israeli will bury them in their own ground & then build their house over their graves, until then Israel will except nothing less, unless it the Palestinians retreating to the tunnels & staying there.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 07:50 PM

"There will be peace when Palestine leadership wants peace. When Jordan wanted peace, it got it; when Egypt wanted peace it got it."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 02:57 AM

Israel wasn't looking to toss the Egyptians & the Jordains off their land & move in, were they?

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 07:43 AM

An interesting viewpoint that I think has merit...


Tackling a Fallacy in Gaza

By Michael Gerson
Friday, January 30, 2009; Page A19

Israel's recent operations in Gaza began in an atmosphere of criticism, including the widespread prediction that the use of force wouldn't "solve anything." Since, in this view, a negotiated peace is the only eventual answer to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, it is a mistake for Israel to engage its enemies in an endless cycle of violence. Hamas in particular would only be strengthened.

This augury of futility was wrong. Israeli forces, responding to an intolerable provocation, inflicted lopsided casualties on Hamas, which displayed a discrediting combination of cowardice and brutality. Hamas fighters used civilians as shields instead of shielding civilians -- and some Palestinians seemed to resent it. Hamas leaders hid in the basements of hospitals while ordering public executions for Palestinian rivals, acting more like members of a criminal gang than a nationalist movement. Allies such as Iran, Syria and Hezbollah provided little practical help to Hamas, probably calculating that its rocket campaign against Israel was suicidal or at least foolishly premature. The international boycott against Hamas is holding. And the scale of missile attacks on Israeli citizens has been dramatically reduced.

"This hasn't solved the problem," retired Maj. Gen. Giora Eiland, a former Israeli national security adviser, told me. "But it has introduced a completely different cost calculation for Hamas." The launching of Hamas rockets against civilians now has a predictable price -- the essence of deterrence. The smuggling of weapons to Gaza through Egypt remains a challenge. But Hamas leaders are currently occupied, Eiland argues, "not just rebuilding buildings, but rebuilding their political standing and legitimacy." And this makes Hamas more likely to keep a cease-fire.

While Israel's military operations didn't accomplish everything, they also didn't accomplish nothing. But the "force doesn't solve anything" argument runs so deep for some that real-world outcomes matter little. Military action by Israel is always counterproductive, because Israel must eventually negotiate with its most bitter enemies. The sooner the better.

Call it the Fallacy of the Eventual Answer. It is true that the solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is two states living side by side in peace. But it is false to say that the fight against terrorists and the security of Israel have no part in achieving that goal.

Peace negotiations generally have preconditions, including the security of both parties. If Israelis are convinced that the "peace process" really means impunity for terrorists who attack them, Israel will want no part of that process. If Hamas leaders remain confident in their impunity -- convinced that their most effective strategy is to kill Israeli citizens while hiding behind their own -- they will not be in the proper mood for meaningful negotiations, either. Recent military operations have addressed some of Israel's justified fears and, perhaps, tamed some of Hamas's murderous arrogance.

According to Daniel Schueftan, a senior research fellow at the University of Haifa, Israel faces a "strategic challenge -- a civilian population that lives a few miles from terrorists -- for which we don't have a strategic solution. But we have found some operational answers. In Defensive Shield [the building of Israel's security wall], we brought down suicide bombings by 95 percent, exclusively with coercive force, not politics."

"It is a fairy tale," he says, "to say there are no answers through coercive force. The only things in life that have solutions are crossword puzzles. We have not solutions, but answers -- operational answers that reduce terror to a tolerable level. It is what we do with crime. It is what we do with terrorism."

Would peace negotiations be even a remote possibility if Israel were still besieged by suicide bombers, leaving bloodstains and bitterness at Israeli cafes? So the ugly but effective security wall actually served a purpose in peace negotiations. The same can be said of the establishment of deterrence through the Gaza offensive.

It is amazing that this argument remains an argument, especially after America's experience with the surge in Iraq. For years, military and diplomatic experts have argued that the ultimate solution is Iraqi political reconciliation rather than military force. Which was true, eventually. But the achievement of security through force, it turns out, was a precondition for the process of reconciliation to move forward. The Fallacy of the Eventual Answer actually delayed the peace.

We can try to imagine a world of diplomats without soldiers, but it would be no more peaceful than a society of therapists without policemen. Coercion is not the ultimate source of peace -- but peace is sometimes unachievable without it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 08:20 AM

Gaza: UN says Hamas seized food aid and blankets
AP - Wednesday, February 04, 2009 7:38:19 AM
By DIAA HADID

AP Hamas police in Gaza seized thousands of blankets and food parcels meant for needy residents, a U.N. spokesman said Wednesday, threatening to fracture relations between the international agency that cares for most of Gaza's residents and the territory's militant rulers.

Hamas policemen forcibly broke into an aid warehouse in Gaza City on Tuesday evening and confiscated 3,500 blankets and over 4,000 food parcels, said Christopher Gunness, a spokesman for the United Nations Relief and Works Agency.

Gunness said the incident was "absolutely unacceptable."

He said police confiscated aid meant for 500 families after U.N. officials refused to voluntarily hand it over to the Hamas-run Ministry of Social Affairs. Similar U.N. aid packages had already been distributed to 70,000 residents over the past two weeks.

Ahmad Kurd, the Hamas Minister of Social Affairs, did not deny the seizure of the aid Wednesday. He charged the U.N. was giving the aid to local groups with ties to Hamas opponents.

"UNRWA did not do what it said it would do, and began distributing its aid to groups that tie their activities to political activism," Kurd said.

Israeli officials have charged in the past that the militant group routinely confiscates aid meant for needy Gazans, but Gunness said this was the first time Hamas had seized its goods since taking control of the territory in 2007.

The U.N. agency provides food, education and health care services to more than half of Gaza's 1.4 million residents.

Hamas is under pressure to provide aid to Gazans, who are facing more hardship than ever since Israel's devastating three-week military offensive, which ended Jan. 18. The operation, aimed at halting rocket fire from the territory, killed hundreds of civilians and left thousands destitute after their homes were damaged or destroyed.

Tensions between Hamas and the U.N. could make it difficult for the international agency to continue providing desperately needed services.

Some international donors had expressed concern that funds meant to rebuild Gaza could fall into Hamas' hands, and the U.N. had been trying to assuage those concerns.

The United Nations is expected to take a leading role in rebuilding Gaza, because Israel and the international community will not deal with Hamas.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 09:10 AM

U.N. backs off claim Israel struck Gaza school

    JERUSALEM (JTA) -- The United Nations has backed off a claim that Israel struck one of its schools in Gaza.

The Jan. 6 incident, in which 43 Palestinians were killed, has been a major point of contention between Israel and the United Nations over the Gaza military operation.

The U.N. humanitarian coordinator in Jerusalem, Maxwell Gaylord, said Monday that the Israeli mortar shells landed in the street near the United Nations Relief and Works Agency school in Gaza and not inside the school, which was sheltering Palestinian refugees, Ha'aretz reported.

In the hours following the strike and ever since, the United Nations, the media and Palestinians in Gaza have accused Israel of striking the school. Israeli army officials have said previously that the two mortar shells could not have done the damage and caused the deaths that occurred near the school. Officials also have maintained that they did not target the school but fired in the direction of Hamas gunfire.

A teacher inside the school compound at the time of the airstrike told Canada's Globe and Mail newspaper last week that no one was killed inside the compound in the wake of the attack.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 09:26 AM

If Likud is elected this time around, we will know that the majority of Israelis also oppose a two state solution.

That is absolutely not true. Opinion polls in Israel consistently show that 70-80% of Israelis support a two state solution and the territorial compromise that will be needed to accomplish that.

There are 36 political parties running in this Israeli elections and the 120 seats in the Israeli Knesset are aportioned according to each party's vote totals. That is to say, a party that gets 10% of the vote will get 10% of the seats.

The latest polls show Likud as the leading party projected to win between 28 and 34 of the 120 seats.

That means Likud is drawing 23-28% of the vote.

Even CarolC should know that 23-28% of VOTERS does not constitute a majority of ISRAELIS.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 11:14 AM

Israel has just about scuppered any possibility of a just and workable two state solution by allowing, and indeed encouraging, around 400000 Zionist settlers on the illegally occupied West Bank which would have been the home of a Palestinian state if the two state solution could have been realised.

These settlers are armed to the teeth,behave like paramiltaries and their bullying of the Palestinians who live near them is a daily occurance.

They shoot,beat up and generally intimidate young and old alike.

The Israeli police and security forces usually stand by and watch and barely lift a finger to stop the settler violence and thuggery.

The situation has got so bad that Israeli human rights groups have provided the Palestinian farmers with video cameras to record the beatings and intimidation...and you can see these on the net. Its not a pretty sight seeing Settler thugs attacking homes,cars and people.

It seems to me that the two state solution has become unworkable because of the short sightedness,greed and arrogance of successive Israeli governments,always backed by the might of the USA of course.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 11:39 AM

Somewhere in this thread there was a post proclaiming that the Israelis were banning two Arab Israeli Political Parties from the forthcoming ballot and election. This little snippet was trumped as illustrating how "undemocratic" Israel was.

Where is the person who wrote that thread and why have they not retracted the accusation??

Both parties appealed the ruling under israeli law and won - both parties will take part in the election.

By way of contrast, in Gaza, opponents of Hamas just get shot.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 12:16 PM

Palestine has had at least five bites at the apple of peace, 1949, 1967, 1973--all after major fighting, with several Arab countries abetting them--and under the aegis President Clinton, and after the Israeli pullout from Gaza respectively. Palestine chose, instead, the bite from the apple of discord.

So if Palestine wants to get the foot of Israel off its neck (as you so inelegantly characterize it, Mr Finn), perhaps it should stand tall, suck it up and realize that Israel is going to remain as Israel, and recognizing the need for a true, lasting and peaceful co-existence side by side of Israel.

They do not get to dictate the terms...they must negotiate in good faith. Any agreement must allow Jews unfettered access to Jewish holy sites. It must grant citizenship to Jews living within its borders, just as Arabs who stayed in Israel are citizens of that country. Those Jews who do not want to be citizens of Palestine, must relocate back to Israel or emigrate to other countries.

When Jews say 'never again', it means more than no more holocaust. It means, too, that when when some glib demogogue wishes to blame Jews for the troubles of their country, and foments violence against Jews, there will be a place in the world, albeit very tiny, where Jews can live freely. It means that if there is a country that disallows the practice of Judaism, there is a place that Jews can go and be Jews. Israel is, and will remain, that place

History has shown that from the first century BCE (AD) to February of 2009 these things happen...over and over again. As the countries of the world fragment into tribal units, there is no reason to think the world will be any friendlier to Jews or Israel.

This is my last post on this thread. I have said everything I need to say. All of you Israel bashers are now free to roam about the cabin and do your thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 01:16 PM

I said this moning that polls indicate Likud will win 28-34 of the 120 seats in the Israeli election.

A new poll published today says 27

"The Kadima Party has also pulled closer to the leading Likud Party in advance of Israel's Feb. 10 national elections, according to the Ma'ariv/Teleseker poll released Wednesday.

The poll found that Likud is leading with 27 seats, followed by Kadima with 23 seats. Both Israel Beitanu and Labor are polling with 17 mandates.

In other results, the religious Sephardic Shas Party polled at 10 Knesset seats, the left-wing Hatnua Hahadasha-Meretz at six seats, United Torah Judaism at five seats and Arab parties Hadash and United Arab List each with four."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 08:57 PM

Just thought a few folks would want to read this article again.

"U.N. backs off claim Israel struck Gaza school

    JERUSALEM (JTA) -- The United Nations has backed off a claim that Israel struck one of its schools in Gaza.

The Jan. 6 incident, in which 43 Palestinians were killed, has been a major point of contention between Israel and the United Nations over the Gaza military operation.

The U.N. humanitarian coordinator in Jerusalem, Maxwell Gaylord, said Monday that the Israeli mortar shells landed in the street near the United Nations Relief and Works Agency school in Gaza and not inside the school, which was sheltering Palestinian refugees, Ha'aretz reported.

In the hours following the strike and ever since, the United Nations, the media and Palestinians in Gaza have accused Israel of striking the school. Israeli army officials have said previously that the two mortar shells could not have done the damage and caused the deaths that occurred near the school. Officials also have maintained that they did not target the school but fired in the direction of Hamas gunfire.

A teacher inside the school compound at the time of the airstrike told Canada's Globe and Mail newspaper last week that no one was killed inside the compound in the wake of the attack."

Thanks for posting it, C Ham.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: bobad
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 10:49 PM

"In the hours following the strike and ever since, the United Nations, the media and Palestinians in Gaza have accused Israel of striking the school."

I'd like to know who these "United Nations" people are.
It makes one wonder what their agenda is.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 06:41 AM

The UN folks in Gaza are well-minded people trying to do there best- but they see a need to support Hamas in order to get their job done. If they do NOT support the claims Hamas makes, they will lose any chance to do what good they can.

THAT is why it is essential to get information form ALL sides, and sift through for the truth- rather than accept any one report as definitive.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 01:14 PM

To Bobad
The Israeli military is covered in the blood of innocent,men women and children,They behaved like some barbaric Waffen SS unit killing and maiming thousands of civilians..... men,women and children.Many were slaughtered under white flags.
Of course the Israeli military does its best to deny responsiblity but the evidence is there to see....thousands of buildings destroyed,racist filth scrawled on walls,schools,clinics hospitals and civic offices blown up.
Now it is clear that western governments are going to try to throw a collective blanket of amnesia over the mass murder in Gaza but I don't think they will get away with it.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 08:05 PM

"The Israeli military is covered in the blood of innocent,men women and children,They behaved like some barbaric Waffen SS unit killing and maiming thousands of civilians..... men,women and children.Many were slaughtered under white flags."

You are so fulla shit. Marxism went down the tubes. Give up the lingo. It's not language; it's jingoism.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 08:07 PM

"Now it is clear that western governments are going to try to throw a collective blanket of amnesia . . . "

Uh, ifor, Hamas stole the fuckin' blankets. Or do you just read shit that denigrates Israel? Asshole.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 09:05 PM

Hams stole blanets, agreed, they are criminals

Israeli forces murdered women, children, innocent civilians, over 1100, they are exterminators!

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 11:50 PM

If the objective were extermination (gee, such loaded language) do you really think the Israelis would have screwed it up so badly? Besides, Barry, Hamas has the extermination of Israelis--JEWISH Israelis--in their fucking charter. What the hell kinda guy ARE you?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 12:15 AM

The United Nations halted aid deliveries to the besieged Gaza Strip on Thursday, citing Israeli attacks on its staff and installations hours after it said tank fire killed one of its drivers as he went to pick up a shipment.

    UN spokesman Adnan Abu Hasna said the UN coordinated the delivery with Israel, and the vehicle was marked with a UN flag and insignia when it was shot in northern Gaza. The Israeli army said it was investigating.

    "The UN is suspending its aid operations in Gaza until we can get safety and security guarantees for our staff," spokesman Chris Gunness said. "We've been coordinating with them (Israeli forces) and yet our staff continues to be hit and killed."

    UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon issued a statement saying that he "condemns the IDF firing on a United Nations aid convoy in Gaza."


Sounds terrible. Only problem is, Hamas Killed UNRWA Driver

    Hamas snipers killed a United Nations worker who was driving a supply truck into Gaza, a MDA medic said Thursday evening. The medic evacuated two wounded UN workers to Barzilai hospital in Ashkelon.

    The medic based his report on testimony from IDF soldiers, who went into Gaza to rescue the two wounded Arab workers. The workers suffered gunshot wounds.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 12:48 AM

The evidence is in on Islamist terrorism

From Melbourne to the Middle East, terrorists want to kill

February 06, 2009 Article from: The Australian

ABDUL Nacer Benbrika is morally on a different planet from the rest of us and it is about time people who think the terror threat is exaggerated realise it. Benbrika was sentenced in a Melbourne court on Tuesday to 15 years for terror offences. Six of his henchmen also went to prison. The cause of their convictions explains a great deal about the way Islamist extremists, some mad, some bad and all dangerous to know, will twist the tenets of the honoured Muslim faith into a justification of mass murder. Their example shows how terrorists, from Melbourne to the Middle East, think and act the same. And it demonstrates how enemies of Israel in the West, who explain terrorism as an inevitable response to the problems of the Palestinians, miss the point. The grim reality is that for religious zealots with murder on their mind, any excuse will do.

Anybody who believes Benbrika was a misguided man who did no harm in the end should consider the evidence against him. Despite Australia giving him a home, and an unearned social security income paid to support his seven children, he was keen to kill as many of us as he could. Certainly, he said Australians deserved to die because of the country's involvement in the war against Saddam Hussein. But he also argued Islam sanctioned death for unbelievers. That Benbrika is as incompetent as he is irrational and never launched an attack does not matter. The World Trade Centre attackers were not highly trained combatants either -- struggling to fly a plane straight. As judge Bernard Bongiorno said in court, "terrorist acts as they have been experienced in modern times are often carried out by amateurs whose principal attribute has not been skill, but rather zealous or fanatical belief".

For an example of the fanaticism Justice Bongiorno points to, it is impossible to beat Samira Ahmed Jassim, who was arrested in Iraq this week. This woman is an enemy of the emerging Iraqi democracy and expressed her political opinions by organizing 28 terrorist attacks. Her modus operandi was to arrange for women to be raped and then tell them the only way they could erase the shame was to blow themselves up, taking unbelievers, in this case ordinary Iraqis, invariably Muslims, with them. The pointless brutality of such crimes beggars belief for all but those who see mass murder as a form of worship. It is nonsensical to suggest that it serves any political purpose. Nor does the way the Hamas Government of Gaza uses suicide bombers and rocket attacks. Hamas has the despicable distinction of deploying the first female suicide bomber. That 2002 attack killed two, wounded 150 people and accomplished precisely nothing. Nor did the Hamas rocket attacks that led the Israeli army to intervene in Gaza last month. Hamas has no chance of defeating Israel in open war and there was no chance that Muslim nations would come to its assistance. But attacking Israel at every opportunity makes sense to anybody who believes in a divine directive to destroy the Jewish state.

It is time for people who believe Western decadence and the Iraq war are the cause of terror attacks to accept the obvious. While Islamic extremists sometimes dress up their motives in the language of conventional politics, they are at war with everybody who does not agree with them. The vast majority of Muslims understand this and recognise there is no place in their faith for terror of the Hamas and Benbrika kind. Opposition to sectarian conflict was one of the reasons Iraqis voted against religious candidates at last weekend's provincial elections, with Shia religious parties losing control of five of the seven provinces they previously ran. It is also time for enemies of Israel to stop blaming the Jewish state for war crimes it did not commit, presumably on the assumption that anything that makes Israel look bad helps Hamas, the ostensible ally of innocent Palestinians. Last month, UN officials in Gaza said Israeli forces had mortared a school where they knew civilians were sheltering. It made international headlines and undoubtedly encouraged Muslim anger all over the world. But it wasn't true -- and the UN knew it. There is no reasoning with Hamas terrorists and the Benbrikas of the world and no case for any argument that explains their actions as anything other than acts of evil.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 02:23 AM

Film footage of the UN school being shelled and photographs of it being hit with white phospherous (children in the compound were killed in this attack)...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmT0MjlPpRo

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 02:29 AM

1000

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 02:32 AM

Stories of one or more shells landing inside the schoolyard were inaccurate The teacher who was in the compound at the time of the shelling was adamant: "Inside [the compound] there were 12 injured, but there were no dead."

Hazem Balousha, who runs an auto-body shop across the road from the UNRWA school, was down the street, just out of range of the shrapnel, when the three shells hit. He showed a reporter where they landed: one to the right of his shop, one to the left, and one right in front. "There were only three," he said. "They were all out here on the road."

John Ging, UNRWA's operations director in Gaza, acknowledged in an interview this week that all three Israeli mortar shells landed outside the school … "I know no one was killed in the school," Mr. Ging said

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 02:37 AM

Joe the guy that pumps gas down the street says that an Israeli set fire to his pants. When asked to prove this he started pulling his own leg.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 02:42 AM

At least three UN schools were hit during those attacks. The one in the video I posted was the third. Perhaps another of the schools that were hit did not have any deaths. But in the school in the video I posted, two children were killed, and someone else had their legs blown off. Fourteen were wounded in all.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 02:49 AM

...and the video shows the damage from the shell that killed the children inside the compound.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 08:41 AM

CarolC,

Can you show any evidence that it was an Israeli shell, and not an Hamas morter shell? In the past, Hamas has claimed that the misfires form it's attacks on Israel were Isralei shelling, even when that was proven to be false.

Ditto the WP.

Or do you acept Hamas staements unverified, and only question Israeli ones???

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 10:16 AM

Hamas achieves goals!!!


"New polls Friday showed the likely winner would be hard-line Likud Party leader Benjamin Netanyahu, who says the current government ended the Gaza operation too early, without causing enough damage to the Islamic group. "


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090206/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: heatherblether
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 10:18 AM

I am amazed at the abusive and foul language being used by zionists in defence of the war crimes committed by the Israeli military in Gaza.
Get real ! The warplanes and helicopter gunships that fired their missiles and bombs onto the did in fact come from bases in Israel.

Those Israeli who stood on those hilltops a few miles outside the city were indeed cheering the explosions with gusto.Those explosions killed and maimed thousands and they are still pulling bodies out of the rubble.

Those white phospherous shells raining down on the civilian population were dropped by the Israeli military.

It was Israeli armoured bulldozers and tanks that flattened whole neighbourhoods and Israeli troops did shoot down men,women and children fleeing the carnage under the "protection" of white flags.

I know that the zionist don't like being told that the state of Israel is a state established on the ethnic cleansing of hundreds of thousands of Palestinian people and the theft of their land...but facts have a way of muscling into the discourse...and facts being awkward, take sides.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 10:54 AM

heatherblether, CarolC, Guest ifor, Guest HUGO - A couple of simple questions for you:

1. "How many people did Israeli Forces kill in Jenin when they went into the refugee camp there to halt a spate of suicide bombings?"

2. "How many people did the Palestinians claim the Israeli Forces killed in that incursion?"

For those of you who do not want to wait until hell freezes over before any of the aforementioned answers those questions the answers are given below:

Answer to Question 1 = 52 to 56 Palestinians, of whom 5-26 may have been civilians.
Answer to Question 2 = At one point 3000 then down 1300 then down to 500 and the western media, TV and particularly the "International Relief Organisations" lapped it up condemning Israel right left and centre.

But it was all a lie, all a myth. But as CarolC knows full well but refuses point blank to admit that is not the first time that Arabs have lied about Jews killing Arabs is it? You can trace that particular little idiosyncrasy all the way back to 1920/1921.

So when it comes to being sceptical about who reports what, the IDF in the past have proved a damn sight more truthful that either Hamas, Fatah or Hezbollah.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: heatherblether
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 12:23 PM

Teribus,
I am afraid your huffing and puffing will not divert attention one jot from the war crimes Israel has committed in Gaza.

By the way do consult your atlas as to the location of Jenin.The last time I looked it is in territory being illegally occupied by an Israeli army that is only too willing to shoot dead those who are protesting about a whole range of humiliations such as the pregnant woman who has to wait for hours to get to hospital or the worker who loses his job because he can't travel to work or the old farmer who sees his olive grove destroyed by some arrogant Russian Israeli driving a bulldozer.

I must say I was greatly encouraged by the protestors who stopped an Israeli army colonel giving a victory talk to zionist students in north London this week.

For a very long time to come when representatives of the Israeli state come to town they will be met with protests at the wholesale murder of children and women in Gaza.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 01:05 PM

Ah heatherblether = ifor = Guest ifor

Why not just stick to one identity please, or is it a requirement that heatherblether needs the two others so illustrate broad agreement on any given subject??

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 01:37 PM

Hamas negotiators stopped with suitcases of cash

Associated Press Writer Sarah El Deeb, Thu Feb 5

CAIRO – Hamas negotiators left Egypt without a long-term cease-fire with Israel on Thursday — but not before some members of the militant group's delegation were stopped at the Gaza border carrying millions in cash.

The delegation walked away from the cease-fire talks because of disagreements over the blockage on Gaza and border security. Talks will continue at a later date.

An Egyptian security official, speaking on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak to the media, said the group initially refused to be searched by Egyptian authorities at the Rafah border crossing. When the group relented, authorities found $7 million and 2 million euros ($2.5 million) in cash in their suitcases. Another security official, also speaking on condition of anonymity, said $9 million and 2 million euros were found. The discrepancy could not be immediately explained.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: heatherblether
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 01:49 PM

To Teribus,
Thank you for your query...but Heather is my wife and has been for a very long time.But your concern does not stop me from pointing out to you and your Israel supporting mates that mass murder was committed in Gaza and hopefully those responsible will have to face the conswequences of dropping big bombs on apartment blocks and the 20000 plus builds in Gaza killing and maiming thousands of civilians.It is a crime.
IFOR

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 02:24 PM

It wasn't a statement from Hamas that indicated it was Israeli shells and white phospherous. It was witnesses in the UN compound, including UN people who said they were Israeli weapons. I'll take their word for it over the government of Israel any day of the week.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 02:26 PM

The same UN people who are in Gaza under Hamas control, who need Hamas approval to remain?

Or the ones who stopped the food shipments because Hamas was stealing them?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 02:28 PM

Palestinian child becomes Jihad fighter in Hamas Childrens TV Video

Hamas TV continues active promotion of Shahada (martyrdom) directed at children. The new video clip, broadcast Sunday, follows the growth of a young Palestinian boy from a child into a Hamas Shahid – Martyr for Allah. The video shows the young child going to the mosque, praying and reading from the Quran, and then holding an automatic rifle together with the Quran as he envisions future participation in violent acts.

The child then matures into a Hamas fighter, is shown participating in battle against Israel, and eventually dying as a Shahid as the choir sings, "The pure blood will produce honor and glory."

This video directs Palestinian children to aspire to Shahada, reiterating a recurring music video theme of seven years that Shahada is expected of children. "Honor and glory" and "Shahada is sweet" are some of these messages specifically packaged for children on Hamas TV and Fatah controlled PA TV.

PA schoolbooks likewise promote Shahada death among children.

One example:

"O heroes... Do not talk yourselves into flight. Your enemies seek life while you seek death. These drops of blood that gush from your bodies will be transformed tomorrow into blazing red meteors that will fall down upon the heads of your enemies." [Reading and Texts Part II, Grade 8 (2002), p. 16]

The following is an excerpt from the new clip on Hamas TV:

"We have come!
Machine-gun and Quran in our hands,
[visual: see child holding machine-gun and Quran]
We've grown and so has the right,
In the eyes of the wronged,
[visual: see child turn into adult and attack Israel] …
We swore to retrieve the land,
The pure blood will produce
Honor and glory.
[visual: see him (child now turned adult) shot dead as Shahid - Martyr]

Al-Aqsa TV

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 02:32 PM

People do and say things that Hamas doesn't agree with all the time in Gaza and are not kicked out. So that little attempted whitewash won't work.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 02:35 PM

"People do and say things that Hamas doesn't agree with all the time in Gaza and are not kicked out."

Oh, like the Fatah people who just happen to fall off large buildings, or put burning tires filled with gasoline around their necks???


The UN is doing the best they can, in difficult circumstances- but they will make the public statements that Hamas request of them in order to remain and do any good that they can.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 02:38 PM

Hamas doesn't control who can and can't be in Gaza. Israel controls who can and can't be in Gaza. So, if the UN people are changing their stories to please anyone, it would be Israel they were doing if for and not Hamas.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 02:40 PM

Sorry.

Israel does NOT control who is in Gaza- Just who goes in or out of the Israeli border.

Hamas just kills people.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 02:50 PM

I'd like to see some evidence that Hamas kills all foreign aid workers who don't say what Hamas wants them to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 02:55 PM

Did ** I ** say all?????


YOU are the one claiming that Israel is targeting civilians, when all evidence is to the contrary. Show me evidence of that, and I will go look for how many aid workers dared to disagree with Hamas.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 03:55 PM

"humiliations such as the pregnant woman who has to wait for hours to get to hospital "


If the Palestinians had NOT previously used ambulances to bring armed terrorists and bombs into Israel, ambulances might be let in a little faster. But that war crime was ok, since it was not Jews doing it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 04:45 PM

"I must say I was greatly encouraged by the protestors who stopped an Israeli army colonel giving a victory talk to zionist students in north London this week."

Yes, freedom of speech is far too dangerous to allow to those one disagrees with...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 05:04 PM

The argument is being made that UN workers and civilian witnesses are lying about the source of the weapons that killed the people in the UN school compound in the video I posted, because Hamas is making them. No evidence has been presented in support of this other than that Hamas kills some people. Until proof is presented that the people in the UN school compound are lying when they say that Israel fired the weapons that hit the school because Hamas told them to, we can dismiss that claim as an attempt to whitewash an obvious war crime committed by Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 05:09 PM

By the way, nobody knows how many people were killed in Jenin. The only reports that are being used to make that determination are the number of bodies that showed up at hospitals and morgues. The number of people who were buried under buildings by IDF bulldozers remains unknown.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 07:17 PM

BBruce: "Yes, freedom of speech is far too dangerous to allow to those one disagrees with..."

Not that I have any time for the man, but isn't that what people say about David Irving (for example)?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: heatherblether
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 07:22 PM

To Bearded bruce
Those Israeli political and military who were up to their necks in the blood and gore of innocent children will have their freedom of speech in a court of international law...but until that day i am all in favour of people calling for their their arrest ...the big difference is the demonstrators in London did not use phospherous bombs or blow up apartment blocks filled with civilians.

Actually as i understand it they blocked the front door and later a busy street and one person shinned up a drainpipe to a window ledge. Of course the British police were there...not to arrest the war criminal but to drag off a few demonstrators including the window ledge man.

Which tells us a little more about the role of the police and the nature of the state. Of course the state of Israel is a hijack state ,founded on the expulsion of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians and the wholesale theft of their land.

I notice today that the Israelis hijacked a Lebanese ship on the high seas in order to prevent it carrying humanitarian supplies to Gaza.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 08:14 PM

Nickhere--

That was pretty low, your comment about David Irving. If you know anything about him, you know his writings are all available, and he is free to speak his mind in all places except the few countries--Austria and Germany and a couple of others, but not the US--where Holocaust Denial is a crime akin to incitement against Jews. If I had my druthers, those laws wouldn't exist. But those countries have their own guilt to deal with regarding the Holocaust.

While he makes himself out a victim, he has been found by a British Court to be a Holocaust Denier. This was not the government's attempt to silence him. It was the verdict to a libel suit HE filed against an American professor who had so characterized him. She had the burden of proving that he Was what she claimed, a Holocaust Denier (as opposed to in the States where he would have had to prove he wasn't).

Irving was, in essence, silenced by his own actions, hoist on his own petard, in filing the suit.

His books are still available at Amazon.com should you care to purchase any.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 01:33 PM

Iran behind attempt to funnel millions of dollars into Gaza from EgyptIran is responsible for an attempt last week to funnel millions of dollars to Hamas in the Gaza Strip by way of Egypt, the Egyptian paper Al-Ahram reported on Saturday.

The money was found in suitcases in the car of Hamas spokesman Ayman Taha. The suitcases reportedly contained $9 million along with 2 million Euros.

An Egyptian official said the money represents "only a small portion of the large amounts of money Iran has funneled to Hamas over the last week."
        Advertisement
Taha deposited the cash in a bank in the Egyptian town of El Arish last Thursday after Egyptian authorities stopped him taking it home to Gaza, police sources said. He later crossed into the Palestinian coastal strip without the money.

The money is in an account at the state-owned National Bank of Egypt in El Arish in northern Sinai in the name of an Egyptian government body, Egytpian officials said.

Taha was part of a Hamas delegation which has been in Cairo for talks with Egyptian intelligence on a long-term truce between Israel and armed Palestinian groups in Gaza.

At the Rafah border crossing between Egypt and Gaza, Egyptian border authorities let through the other five members of the Hamas team but held back Taha because of the money.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 01:56 PM

Quote from Pallestinian 8th grade text book [Reading and Texts Part II, Grade 8 (2002), p. 16]

Your enemies seek life while you seek death. These drops of blood that gush from your bodies will be transformed tomorrow into blazing red meteors that will fall down upon the heads of your enemies.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 06:38 PM

No John, it wasn't 'pretty low' or anything like it. Without making too much of a mouthful of it, BBruce was objecting to a person who was glad a staunch zionist had been prevented from giving a speech. The content of the speech would have been to excuse Israel's actions in Gaza, whitewash details about use of phosphorous shells and all the other stuff that's been talked about. Not to mention ideas that Hamas is solely responsible for what the levelling of Gaza and that the not so many Palestinians really died and so on.

Whatever your politics it would in short have been a load of propaganda. Now Bruce had a problem with this guy not being allowed to present his propaganda. Bruce has a point, I believe people should be allowed argue what they want - there are already plenty here on Mudcat doing just that. If you don't agree with them, fine, say so and say why. Don't try and shut them up (not you specifically, people generally!)

Bruce argued this was done to silence any other viewpoint except the one of the objector, hence his comment ""Yes, freedom of speech is far too dangerous to allow to those one disagrees with..." Bruce is being sarcastic here, and rightly making the point that blocking someone from presenting their views is wrong.

But Bruce, and yourself and many others then fall into the same trap: freedom of speech is ok as long as you agree with the content. It emerges if someone like Irving comes up. He just happens to be the best example I can think of. Do you know of anyone else who's gone to jail for their views in the West? Who's not allowed to present their views (however outlandish)? If you do, we can quote them as an example next time, Irving is just one of the best known.

Irving (apparently - I've never read any of his books, have no plans to either, thanks for the info about amazon, but I won't be buying them) should be free to argue the holocaust didn't happen, if that's what he thinks, without fear of jail. People who don't agree with him should be free to argue why and show how he's wrong. THAT'S how we progress forward. Instead he's been silenced in just the same way Bruce is complaining about.

But I've come to realize this is a topic full of double standards. In fact, Israel has been one of the foremost supporters of another episode of 'holocaust denial' - that of Turkey and Armenia. Turks carried ut a program of genocide in Armenia - killing over 2 million Armenians. At the time, it was the largest genocide in human history. Yet today, the official Turkish line is 'it didn't happen' 'if it did, it was an accident' 'the numbers were much smaller' 'they did it to themselves' - all the usual shit. Journalists who've tried to write about this in Turkey have been jailed, and few people would argue that Turkey doesn't have a long way to go in terms of human rights.

Surely, Israel, composed of people that had suffered in like manner, and have monuments to same all over the world, would be the first to object to Turkey's whitewash of its history? Au contraire, Israel has been Turkey's staunchest ally in all of this, objecting to any inclusion of Armenians in holocaust and genocide memorial days, as if there was only one genocide in all of history. All this because Turkey is a strong political ally of Israel. The icing on the cake came recently when Israel's government threatened to no longer support Turkey in its holocaust denail if Turkey didn't ease off on its criticism of Israeli actions in Gaza.

The double standards of this makes me want to vomit. What hope is there of genocides not occurring again and again if it is allowed to become a political football????

There are many 'crucifixion deniers' out there, such as the authors of the Holy Blood and Holy Grail who are trying to claim the crucifixion of Jesus never happened. Of course, were it true (and their thesis is shaky at best) it would mean the central tenet of Christianity - that Christ died and rose as a payment for the debt of our sins, would not be true. To me, that's far worse in some ways than arguing about 'how many died', since it goes beyond politics and humanity and messes with people's salvation. But, the world is big and not everyine shares my views. I would never dream of sending people to jail to silence them because they claimed the crucifixion didn't happen. Actually, it would just make me look suspicious, as if I had something to hide, something that wouldn't stand up to scrutiny. So I would rather let them have their say and argue it out with them, on the basis 'the truth will always out'. It is my view that people like Irving could easily been shown up to be charlatans if they were engaged with. Otherwise - we arrive at the point Bruce was making. The accusation of being (or being like) a holocaust denier - with the legal implications such an accusation carries - often raises its ugly head on these political threads, and I feel it necessary to point out that what Bruce is arguing is that all viewpoints should be listened to, even if they conflict with one's own. I just wish he, and those of a similar view - could see this applies both ways.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 06:47 PM

And for what it's worth, Germany, especially under Merkel, has been pushing hard to make 'holocaust denial' a crime throughout the EU. It seems there are some people who just can't help being totalitarian even in their defence of democracy. It reminds me of the Brazilian dictator back in the 70s who finally came around to the idea of democracy and said "I am going to open Brazil to democracy. And anyone who is against that, I will crush, I will destroy completely"....!

Ironically German'y efforts haven't been enthusiastically accepted because it would put Turkey - who has been agitating to join the EU - in an awkward position.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 06:50 PM

Sawzaw - thanks for the Hamas textbook quotes. Don't they show so very clearly the lunacy and danger of overbearing nationalism?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 06:52 PM

"By the way, nobody knows how many people were killed in Jenin. The only reports that are being used to make that determination are the number of bodies that showed up at hospitals and morgues. The number of people who were buried under buildings by IDF bulldozers remains unknown." - CarolC

In saying the above CarolC you seem to display an amazing lack of understanding of the realities of life and what measures indicate the true state of things.

Jenin was a refugee camp - Correct??

The population of a refugee camp is regulated - Correct??

So the only reports that were used to make the determination of the fatalities were the number of bodies that showed up at hospitals and morgues. What about the numbers seeking aid?? What about the numbers drawing rations?? If as the "Palestinians" contended there were 3000 killed there would be a marked reduction in those being fed wouldn't you think CarolC, after all the population of the Jenin camp was 13,000 and all of a sudden due to those beastly Israelis the population is reduced from 13,000 to 10,000, and all apart from 50 odd bodies are left to rot under rubble. Can you therefore explain why the numbers who continued to receive aid did not reflect the disappearance of 3,000 people from the population of Jenin??

I take it CarolC that in your life you have not encountered sudden and violent death in any great magnitude?? I ask because of your statement regarding - "The number of people who were buried under buildings by IDF bulldozers remains unknown."

Dead bodies stink CarolC, bodies once dead CarolC also become a really serious health risk to those who are still living, so much so CarolC that when humans get killed in war, in natural disasters, etc. Every possible effort is made to recover bodies and bury them, because if that is not done and people continue to live amongst rotting human remains then people start dying from all manner of diseases.

Sorry about that CarolC but the number of people who died in Jenin is known, it was between 53 and 56. It is known exactly because refugee camps are not run like a theme park, they are very carefully regulated as far as everyday life aspects are concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 07:02 PM

Um. Teribus, Carol wrote that bodies were BURIED under rubble / houses etc., Our local cemetery is full of dead bodies, all of whom no doubt stank for a while. But we don't smell any of them since they are.... well, buried. That's not to say that ALL the bodies buried under rubble won't be olofactor-ily noticed, but it might explain why some aren't.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 07:15 PM

Erm Nickhere, I would venture to guess that the dead bodies buried in your locale are actually "buried" as opposed to being just loosely, and hapazardly covered in the remains of a demolished building. There is a distinction of which I am sure you are aware. Stop being obtuse and please respond to points being made to counter propaganda and myth. If someone wants to yell about numbers being killed, then let them produce bodies in numbers that are verifiable. If they cannot do so then their arguement is decidedly weak.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 07:24 PM

A body buried under tonnes of rubble may be just as effectively buried as one under two or three feet of soil. Do you know for certain a body buried in such a manner can be located by smell? Or that all the bodies mentioned by Carol can be located by smell?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 08:12 PM

About the only thing I agree with you about, Nickhere, is that David Irving should be legally allowed to write and to deny the Holocaust. That doesn't mean that any private groups are obligated to invite him to speak or even to have an audience. As Hubert Humphrey said, "The right to freedom of speech doesn't mean the right to be heard." [I may be a little off on the quote, but that's the essence].

I've already noted when I wrote earlier, "If I had my druthers, those laws [holocaust denial] wouldn't exist. But those countries have their own guilt to deal with regarding the Holocaust."

Countries are not individuals who have the luxury of noting evils that have taken place in the last century. Countries have to make compromises--and they all do for reasons we might not admire--which are felt are in the current best interest of the country.

Turkey is the only country in the Middle East with which Israel has anything like normalized relations; it would be foolish of Israel to jeopardize that.

Even the US has not formally recognized the Armenian Genocide, although we've come close a couple of times. It has been, or will be introduced again by Adam Schiff (D) of California, a Jew. It will likely pass during this Congress.

Turkey will almost surely acknowledge the genocide, or something like it, sooner rather than later, so they can become part of the EU. They will make that deal when they finally realize it is in their best interest to do so.

Well, this has certainly been a lot of thread creep.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 08:33 PM

I wouldn't invite Irving to speak, or bother going to hear him speak, personally. Some people might feel inclined to go along if only to keep tabs on what he's saying and so dispute him.

I did indeed notice what you wrote about "f I had my druthers..." and I wholeheartedly admire your sentiment in the matter.

Regarding Turkey - the issue so seems to be idealism v. practicality. I know politicians have to make compromises in order to keep the boat afloat. But what price are people willing to pay in order to do this? I think it's foolish to allow Turkey to get away so easily with denying its own dark past. A spade is a spade so to speak, and if a country is allowed to call it something else, or pretend it didn't happen, for political expediency, it's only a matter of time before this policy comes home to haunt those who subscribe to it. It also leaves Israel - through the actions of its government - or zionists generally, open to charges of duplicity / double standards, which can hardly help their cause.

While the politicians have their needs, we lose sight of overarching ideals at our own peril as a species.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 09:35 PM

Hamas, Hezbollah & their Molochian Divine

Feb 06, 2009 at 08:05:27 AM PST
Elias Bejjani Canadian-Lebanese Human Rights activist, journalist and political commentator

In Arabic contemporary history, there are four disastrous, pointless, destructive, and Don Quixote wars:

In 1967 President Jamal Abdel Nasser led the Egyptians to a suicide war with Israel.

In 2003 Iraq's president Saddam Hussein's delusions of grandiose and stubbornness provided the USA with the needed pretext to invade and Liberate his country.

In 2006 Sheik Hassan Nasrallah, General Secretary for the Terrorist Shiite militia provoked Israel after his men crossed the Lebanese-Israeli border to kill and kidnap a number of Israeli soldiers. Israel responded by a massive military assault on Lebanon lasted for 30 days.

In 2008 Khaled Meshaal, the overall leader of Hamas replicated Nasrallah's uncalculated provocations and instigated a catastrophic war with Israel, Its cost to the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip was 1350 dead, more then 6000 injured and three billion dollars of loses.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 12:12 AM

Nickhere -- There is one other point I neglected in my last post in my haste to leave for dinner with Mrs. Coast.

As of December, 2008 only 20 countries in the world have formally recognized the Armenian Genocide. They are per Wikipedia:

    * Argentina (2 laws, 3 Resolutions
    * Canada (1996, 2002, 2004
    * Chile
    * Cyprus
    * France (1998, 2000, 2001, 2006)
    * Germany
    * Greece
    * Italy
    * Lithuania
    * Lebanon
    * Netherlands
    * Poland
    * Russia
    * Slovakia
    * Sweden
    * Switzerland
    * Uruguay (1965, 2004)
    * Vatican City
    * Venezuela

You will note that only a few European countries are included, but not the UK. The former Soviet republics are not included, save only Russia and Lithuania. Most of South America and all of Central America is missing. No African country recognizes the Genocide. And only one Arab and/or Islamic country (Lebanon) recognizes the Armenian Genocide.

"Israel and Denmark believe that the genocide recognition should be discussed by historians not politicians."

I think it is disingenuous of you, or anybody, to hold Israel to a standard higher than about 90% of United Nations countries, especially in light of their precarious position in the Middle East and the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 01:36 AM

About those bodies buried under rubble. If the sanitary conditions continue to decline & bodies can't be recovered & interned properly & with out the nessary medical flow of supplies with closed borders the onslaught of diease that can follow an aftermath of this sort & size will continue the "REIGN" of destruction that the Israeli's will in the future not only be noted & tried for but it will also follow & curse them. In IMHO, they have opened the doors of hell & will never find a way back to closing them before they them selves get scorched.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 12:10 PM

What happened in Hama in 1982?

Then followed several weeks of torture and mass executions of suspected rebel sympathizers, killing many thousands, known as the Hama Massacre. Estimates of casualties vary from an estimated 7000 to 35,000 people killed, including about 1000 soldiers

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 07:00 AM

CarolC

you claim that we should believe UN employees (Gaza) unless we have proof otherwise, and NOT believe Israelis unless we have proof that what they say is true(Jenin).

This is another example of you showing bigotry against Israelis.


EITHER BOTH OR NEITHER should be believed without proof.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 07:23 AM

Gaza militant dies in clash as cease-fire tarries
         
Ibrahim Barzak, Associated Press Writer – 5 mins ago AP –

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip – A Palestinian fighter died in a clash with Israeli troops and Israeli aircraft attacked two targets in Gaza on Monday as mediators tried to broker a long-term cease-fire a day before Israel holds national elections.

The militant group Islamic Jihad said in a statement that one of its fighters was killed overnight in an Israeli airstrike. The Israeli military said troops spotted an armed militant trying to cross the Gaza-Israel border late Sunday and opened fire, after which a bomb belt he was wearing detonated.

Israeli aircraft struck two militant positions in the territory early Monday, in what the military said was retaliation for rocket fire from Gaza on Sunday. No injuries were reported in the aerial attacks.

Riad Malki, foreign minister in the moderate Palestinian government based in the West Bank, charged Monday that Hamas was trying to influence the outcome of Tuesday's Israeli elections by continuing to fire rockets into southern Israel. The moderate Palestinian government is headed by President Mahmoud Abbas, a rival of Gaza's Hamas rulers.

Hamas doesn't want to see a pro-peace government elected because it would pursue a political deal with Abbas, and the Islamic militant group "wants instability in the region," Malki said during a visit to Poland.

Abbas' government is "very much worried" that the rocket attacks might "really push Israeli public opinion and the voters to vote for an anti-peace government," he told reporters in Warsaw.

...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 07:25 AM

JERUSALEM (CNN) -- Israel launched air strikes against a number of targets in Gaza Monday to retaliate against Palestinian militants who have fired a "barrage" of rockets inside the Jewish state in recent days, the military said.


Israel says its air strikes in Gaza are aimed at stopping rocket attacks into the south of the country.

The targets in Monday's air strikes included two Hamas outposts in southern and northern Gaza, the Israel Defense Forces said.

The IDF said militants fired two rockets at Israel Sunday. The recent rocket fire brings to more than 35 the number of Qassam rockets, mortars and Grad missiles that have been fired at Israel since Israel and Hamas agreed to separate cease-fires on January 21.

Rockets fired from a Grad have a longer range than the crude, home-made Qassams that Palestinian militants in Gaza fire more frequently. Militants have used Grads strike farther into Israel.

Israel and Hamas, the Islamic militant group that has ruled Gaza since 2007, declared separate, tentative cease-fires following more than three weeks of fighting in Gaza.

Israel launched the attack on Hamas in Gaza on December 27 with the stated aim of ending rocket attacks on southern Israel.

The air strikes come one day before Israelis are due to go to the polls in a national election that is expected to be dominated by the issue of security.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 08:06 AM

"But Bruce, and yourself and many others then fall into the same trap: freedom of speech is ok as long as you agree with the content."


This is false, as I have always advocated freedom of speech for all sides of issues.


"The principle of free thought is not free thought for those who agree with us but freedom for the thought we hate. "
US Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr. in United States v. Schwimmer (1929).

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: heatherblether
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 11:56 AM

The brazeness of those zionists who talk of free speech but who who condone or defend the slaughter in Gaza leaves me quite astonished!
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 12:11 PM

Nickhere--

In posting to you regarding David Irving on February 7, I quoted (actually misquoted) Hubert Humphrey. I have found the exact quote.

"The right to be heard does not include the right to be taken seriously."

So I have now created the obverse corollary to his exquisite observation, "The right to free speech does not mean the right to be heard." By that I mean no one is obligated to give a person the platform to speak, and anyone within earshot of speech has the right to leave the speaker speaking to himself.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Stringsinger
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 01:03 PM

Israel is on a path will accomplish nothing. They can't bully their way to victory because the nature of their argument is not and will not be accepted by Palestinians. The only approach they seem to take is genocide. Fortunately, their are cooler heads in Israel today who disagree with the siege of Gaza. Not all Israelis agree with the "moving in". Read Ha'aretz.

The cease-fire needs to be brokered by honest and non-partisan leaders throughout the world. The world needs to see that this violence is not in the best interest of the world community and could trigger another world war. I hope that Obama might be one of the leaders but I fear he is too closely tied with the current administration in Israel to be objective.

Instead of demonizing Hamas, they need to be seen as a violent knee-jerk reaction to an
unyielding and oppressive Israeli regime by poor Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 01:27 PM

Bruce - "The recent rocket fire brings to more than 35 the number of Qassam rockets, mortars and Grad missiles that have been fired at Israel since Israel and Hamas agreed to separate cease-fires on January 21"

Though the article opens with 'palestinian militants' the above line tends to give the impression, by naming no other group, that Hamas were responsible for the latest barrage. Israeli intelligence have actually been blaming Islamic Jihad and another group whose name escapes me at present. This is significant in that it demonstrates that even were Hamas to modify their line and 'come in from the cold' there are other groups not so inclined and probably there always will be unless certain injustices on the ground are sorted out as best as possible. Therefore we can expect the cycle of violence to continue ad nauseum.

John - thanks for the quote, I rather like it. I did mention that I wouldn't be in any rush to hear Irving, personally. Just he should feel free to speak without fear of jail, as is presently the case in some countries. I dislike that kind of 'thought totalitarianism'. I should emphasize that i would not take that freedom to speak to include actual outright racism obviously - I don't think anyone should be free to stand up and shout 'let's heng all dem dar n****rs' for example.

Thanks also for the list - I learn something new everyday. I was sorry to see my own country was not included. I will have to start doing something about that - I doubt if our politicians are even aware of it. But that'll have to change!

You say though that it's unfair to hold Israel up to a higher standard than 90% of the UN. I don't know about that. I expect ALL those countries to recognize the genocide. I would expect Israel to be especially sensitive to it, given its own history, just as in Ireland we are more empathetic (usually) with colonized countries, having had that experience ourselves. I'd find it rather annoying if ireland was to so quickly forget its past that it applauded colonization elsewhere. I would just expect Israel to recognize the Armenian genocide in the same way as those countries that already have, no less no more. It is bizarre to find they don't and makes me think that genocide-recognition might be more of a political expedient than an ideal.

I have to say that not only worries me but makes me feel sick, not to put too fine a point on it. If recognition of genocide becomes the slave of political expediency rather than an absolute ideal, then we quickly descend into the realm where this or that genocide can be justified or forgotten about for this or that special reason. In other words, there then becomes no such thing as genocide as such, rather a case-by-case basis where it can be justified if it suits current needs. History teaches us that fashions change, borders change and if there are no absolute abhorrence of these things, we can be sure they will happen again and again.

You also pointed out many African countries don't recognize it as a genocide. I don't know why that is, but here's a few possibilities:

Some of these countries may have genocides of their own to deal with (e.g Rwanda) so they might be ignoring the subject so as to avoid questions being asked in their own quarter. Some of these countries seem to be still headed by tin pot dictators or armed fighting factions who have no problem with genocide as a means to an end and so are hardly likely to care about one that happened far away years ago. Some of these countries body politic might not have even heard of the genocide in Armenia. I know that sounds hard to imagine but I (who am interested enough in world affairs to read and follow the news) didn't know anything about it until a few years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 11:29 PM

To all you genocide accusers, does this sound like Genocide?

Speech broadcast on Palestinian TV, April 20, 2007 by Dr. Ahmad Bahar of Hamas, the acting head of the Palestinian Legislative Council:

"This is Islam, that was ahead of its time with regards to human rights in the treatment of prisoners, but our people was afflicted by the cancerous lump, that is the Jews, in the heart of the Arab nation. Make us victorious over the infidels. Allah, take hold of the Jews and their allies, Allah, take hold of the Americans and their allies Allah, count them and kill them to the last one and don't leave even one."

Watch Video of this speech

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 11:34 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Alan - PM
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 11:48 AM

"The Israeli's left Gaza to the Palestinians" Catch yourself on man, the Jews STOLE the bloody land in the first place, not hard to see where you come from. Go biol your head of something.

Jews were present in Gaza from antiquity until the 1929 Palestine riots, when Arabs forced the Jews to leave Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 01:38 PM

Amnesty International: Hamas harmed Palestinians

February 11, 2009

LONDON (JTA) -- Amnesty International issued a report detailing Hamas violence against Palestinians during Israel's military operation in the Gaza Strip.

In its report, the human rights organization states that at least two dozen men were shot dead by Hamas gunmen, and many more were kneecapped or otherwise tortured during and after Israel's military operation. It also confirms media reports that some victims had been executed in hospitals where they were being treated for wounds.

Amnesty International sent a fact-finding team to the Gaza Strip once the cease-fire was in force.

Responding to the report, Hamas spokesman Fawzi Barhoum said, "Maybe some of them were killed because they were acting against the population, against the resistance."

Barhoum added that certain assassinations, like that of the Hamas interior minister, Said Siyam, could not have been carried out without intelligence provided by spies.

However, human rights organizations documented cases of execution and the torture of supporters of Fatah, the party led by Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas.

In one such incident detailed in the report, Hamas forces took in for questioning Osama Atallah, a teacher and public supporter of Fatah. The following day a local hospital called his family to say he was in critical condition. He later died.

Fatah officials said Atallah was punished "because of his public and continued criticism of the performance of the Hamas militias in Gaza." They accused Hamas of "severely torturing and then strangling" Atallah.

Hamas officially endorses the killing of collaborators, but denies allegations that it executes political rivals.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Stringsinger
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 01:56 PM

Amnesty may be correct but this does not excuse the invasion by Israel.

Hamas is an extremist group but the only representative that the Palestinian people have
at present. The other representative groups have failed.

Fatah is obsolete now because they no longer represent the Palestinian people.

It's similar to Castro's Cuba. Castro took extreme measures in the Sierra Maestra. He
was roundly criticized for it.

Was it the best way?   Probably not but Israel and Ochoa/Batista produced extreme reactions due to their brutality.


Stringsinger

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 02:48 PM

I'm sorry Stringsinger, but you're wrong. Most of the Palestinians live in the West Bank, not Gaza. There, Fatah remains in control of the Palestinian Authority.

Hamas' authority, by the way, is recognized by no government in the world execpt Iran.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 11:40 PM

"Hamas is an extremist group but the only representative that the Palestinian people have at present. The other representative groups have failed."

Hamas murderously and violently over threw Fatah in Gaza. Fatah sucessfully represents the majority of Palestinians because the majority lives in the West Bank.

Do you have any facts to present that state otherwise?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 01:09 PM

I thought Hamas won the democratic elections, fair and square, but this particular expression of democracy was unacceptable to both Israel and other so-called western governments because the Palestinians had chosen the wrong representatives to lead them. Then Fatah, the party that had lost the election mainly because most Palestinians regarded it as hopelessly corrupt, were encouraged to seize power in what amounted to a coup d'Etat. They did, ousting the democratically-elected Hamas. Hamas, undermined in the West Bank then seized power in Gaza to prevent Fatah from seizing power there too.

Whether or not you agree with Hamas' politics, how fast history has been re-written

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 01:36 PM

Nickhere:

Hamas did indeed win the Gaza election. Jimmy Carter says it was fair, and Jimmie Carter is an honorable man. People have noted that Adolf Hitler was the fairly elected Chancellor of Germany...he wasn't. His Nazi Party fomented violence and rioting such that no non-Nazi government could succeed. He was asked, as a last resort, by von Hindenbrg in hopes to bring some 'normalcy' to Germany. I see some parallels, even if the honorable Carter doesn't.

But even allowing that the elections were 100% uncoercive and fair, Hamas subsequently has made extremely poor choices vis-a-vis Israel, vis-a-vis investing as between guns and butter, and vis-a-vis Fatah/PA.

Their insistant rocketing of Israel has been, probably, the largest single factor in the rightward turn of the Israeli elections of the other day. Even Egypt is acting against Hamas.


PS: Did you get my PM?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 02:00 PM

There's no doubt that Hamas have made poor choices post-election regarding violence etc.,

I don't know what the conditions on the ground are exactly - but having been usurped by Fatah after the elections may have made Hamas jumpy and paranoid and fuelled further violence, plus being isolated by a large chunk of the world has only helped push them further to extremism.

With the swing to the right in Israel, it looks like extremism is going to set the tone even further on both sides. Hamas have contributed to that swing, but the swing will contribute to more extremism from Hamas or Islamic Jihad and so on in a cycle of upping the ante.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 02:01 PM

OOPs! Sorry, forgot to add, I did indeed get your PM, thanks, and will settle down to have a listen to that as soon as I get an half hour or hour or so with no-one knocking on the door. Will get back to you asap.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 02:52 PM

Hamas & Fatah were both seen as detrimental by the Israeli's & the US, we only backed one against the other when they were both on the scene. We played them against themselves, divide & conquer. Take one of the players out of the game & they may unify. Of course that wouldn't e allowed by the Israeli's either.

Now what would happen if the US just walked away from the nightmare?
Are we prolonging the strife, would Israel be able to stand up alone, not against the Palestinians but alone in the Mid-East.
I believe we should no longer support, fund or back Israel until they bend. Don't ask "how far"

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 03:47 PM

Hamas and Fatah have never needed Israel's or the U.S.'s help at fighting amongst themselves. They're both quite adept at killing Palestinians.

Barry Finn seems to think its the U.S. support of Israel that feeds the conflict.

Well, the Palestinian Authority (now controlled by Fatah) could not exist without U.S. support either.

And Hamas is nothing but puppets of Iran.

Thankfully, it's Barack Obama, not Barry Finn, who is president of the United States, and Hillary Clinton, not CarolC, who is secretary of state.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 03:52 PM

IMO, when Israel sees no alternative to their extermination as a country or a people, the genie will come out of the box and there will be little but ash and glass in the mid-East. This consistent horseshit from people about controlling Israel--think about it. You are bitching because Israel hit Hamas back first. Now it's a fucking problem. But it was NOT a problem when Hamas was (and still is) firing rockets into Israel. Gimme a break. Seems some folks are anti-war only when it's Israel, and not when it's Hamas. Spare us the crap.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 03:54 PM

PS

The election results in Israel are a nightmare. Got what you want, right? Now, watch out because the shit IS going to hit the fan, big time. Bloody sad day for both Israelis and its neighbours.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 04:07 PM

Yes, the Israeli election results are a nightmare. That's because of the proportional representation system (that the NDP and Greens want to bring to Canada) that makes the major parties beholden to single issue parties.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 05:07 PM

It may be too late, with the election, but...

"Hamas leaders centered its truce demands on a reopening of the tiny coastal territory's borders, which have been largely sealed by Egypt and Israel since Hamas gunmen seized control in Gaza in 2007.

Israel, in turn, insisted that any cease-fire must include an end to militants firing rockets from Gaza into southern Israel and a halt to Hamas arms smuggling."








Report: Hamas says agreement on long-term truce
      
Salah Nasrawi, Associated Press Writer – 3 mins ago

CAIRO – The deputy leader of Hamas said Thursday night that the Islamic militant group agreed to a long-term truce with Israel for the Gaza Strip, the official Egyptian news agency reported.

Moussa Abu Marzouk told MENA that Egypt's government, which has been mediating between Hamas and Israel, would announce the truce in two days after consulting with other Palestinian factions.

In Jerusalem, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert's office said the Israeli government had no comment on the report.

Earlier in the day, Egyptian and Hamas officials reported progress in truce talks, which included Hamas' strongman from Gaza, Mahmoud Zahar, and Egypt's top mediator, intelligence chief Omar Suleiman.

Egyptian diplomats have been working as go-betweens to try to arrange a truce deal between Hamas and Israel to solidify a cease-fire that ended Israel's devastating 22-day offensive in Gaza last month. Hamas and Israel refuse to negotiate directly.

Marzouk told MENA that the Egyptian-brokered deal it agreed to calls for Israel to reopen six border crossings into the Gaza Strip.

Hamas leaders centered its truce demands on a reopening of the tiny coastal territory's borders, which have been largely sealed by Egypt and Israel since Hamas gunmen seized control in Gaza in 2007.

Israel, in turn, insisted that any cease-fire must include an end to militants firing rockets from Gaza into southern Israel and a halt to Hamas arms smuggling.

In talking to MENA, Marzouk did not discuss details. But earlier Thursday he told Al-Jazeera television that Egypt had previously agreed to work with Israel to forge new arrangements for reopening Gaza's crossing into Egypt.

Marzouk said a deal for the release of a captured Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit held in Gaza would be negotiated later, according to MENA.

Egypt has been trying to broker a prisoner exchange between Israel and Hamas. Hamas is holding Shalit, who was abducted more than two years ago in a cross-border raid from Gaza into southern Israel.

Besides mediating a truce for Gaza, Egypt also is trying to bring Hamas and its Palestinian rival, President Mahmoud Abbas, into talks on reconciling and forming a unity government that can move ahead with peace negotiations with Israel. Egypt hopes to host a reconciliation conference Feb. 22.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 05:09 PM

GREAT news, BB.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 05:23 PM

As long as Hamas can deliver on it's side-

After the UN truce in Lebanon, and the failure to hold Hezboallah to the terms, ANY violations will just give the Israeli hardliners reason to hit Gaza a lot harder than this time.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 05:26 PM

Was speaking again with a buddy in the Golan. He and the people there are VERY happy about the possibility of peace. Best news I've had in days--what you posted Bruce. Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 05:36 PM

"Hamas Will Announce 18-Month Truce With Israel, AFP Reports


By Mark Schoifet

Feb. 12 (Bloomberg) -- Hamas has accepted an 18-month truce with Israel in the Gaza Strip in a deal brokered by Egypt, Agence France-Presse reported, citing the Egyptian state news agency MENA.

The deal will be announced within 48 hours, AFP said. MENA based its report on comments from Mussa Abu Marzuk, Hamas's deputy leader, according to AFP. Hamas accepted the truce in exchange for Israel's lifting of its blockade of Gaza, AFP cited the official as saying.

Last Updated: February 12, 2009 16:17 EST"

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 06:25 PM

"There's no doubt that Hamas have made poor choices post-election regarding violence etc.,"

What do you mean "poor choices" Nickhere??? No choices have been made by Hamas what they have done and the path that they have chosen is writ clear and large in their founding Charter.

It has been the Palestinian people who have made poor choices in electing the tossers to provide them with some form of Goverment which of course they NEVER will.

&0 years down the track!! - Slow learning curve, or what??

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 08:21 PM

Teribus, maybe you should ask John on the Sunset Coast, who wrote "Hamas subsequently has made extremely poor choices vis-a-vis Israel" or just simply read his post instead.

As for electing tossers, looks the Israeli electorate has been taking its lead from Hamas, so that puts both of them on a slow learning curve.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Emma B
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 08:27 PM

I don't feel 'at ease' posting to mudcat anymore but may I please plead with people who post on this thread to listen to some of the first independent journalists reports to emerge from Gaza

Assignment
The BBC's Middle East Editor Jeremy Bowen travels to Gaza, to ask where the recent conflict leaves the region's future.

this is on the World Service at this moment - please listen on the listen again facility

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 08:32 PM

"Israel, in turn, insisted that any cease-fire must include an end to militants firing rockets from Gaza into southern Israel and a halt to Hamas arms smuggling."

Yeah, like that's gonna happen. 2 weeks tops.

All of these deals are Hamas wants X; Hamas wants Y; Hamas wants Z.
Israel give Hamas X, Y & Z. What does Hamas give Israel...a stronger Hamas.

If Hamas wants peace, let them rewrite their charter recognizing the the right of Israel to exist, and let them begin normal international relations with Israel. Anything else is BullShit.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Emma B
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 09:28 PM

A closed mind is a closed mind - if you have a mind to listen to an independent journalist's report from Gaza this is the link (I hope!)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediaselector/check/worldservice/meta/tx/assignment?nbram=1&nbwm=1&size=au&lang=en-ws&bgc=003399&ls=p14&ls=3539

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Emma B
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 09:42 PM

I provided a quick blue clicky link to the BBC World Service report from Gaza but it was immediately deleted - better luck this time

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 10:25 PM

Closed mind? I think not. Historical analysis. I predicted the last cease fire would last 2 months, I think. It lasted 8 or 10 days.

Hamas and Hezbullah (not currently involved) typically uses ceasefires to re-arm and prepare for the next round of attacking Israel. Why would I expect this one to be any different? More importantly, why would Israel? In 18 months Hamas can get really strong...assuming the cease fire lasted that long.

As the saying goes, "Fool me once, your bad; fool me twice, my bad." Israel has let itself be fooled too many times.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 12:01 AM

"but may I please plead with people who post on this thread to listen to some of the first independent journalists reports to emerge from Gaza"

Would these be the same journalists who protested so loudly about Hamas rocket attacks into Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 12:55 AM

"Israel says no more

February 12, 2009

Article from: The Australian

HAMAS, the terrorist organisation that masquerades as the Government of Gaza, was the deciding factor in Israel's election yesterday. A majority of people who went to the polls voted for parties who want to take Hamas on. Likud, the party of former prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu, came a close second with 27 seats being surprisingly, if marginally, outperformed by Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni's Kadima party with 28. But with the support of religious and nationalist parties, Mr Netanyahu has a good chance of a majority in the 120-member parliament.

The result is a rebuff for Kadima, the party founded by former prime minister Ariel Sharon for the express purpose of securing a mandate for his unilateral withdrawal from Gaza in 2005. Certainly other factors were involved. Kadima was damaged by corruption scandals last year involving its leader, outgoing Prime Minister Ehud Olmert. Nor is Ms Lipni an advocate of peace at any price, backing last month's intervention in Gaza. But she is marked by two years of stop- start peace talks in her time as foreign minister and by the way the evacuation of Gaza did not stop Hamas rocket attacks against Israel. And so, 16 years on since the 1993 Oslo accords established the basis for a two-state solution, Israelis have had enough of a negotiating process in which extremists on the other side take whatever concessions are on offer and then use terrorism to extract more. The recent Gaza incursion signalled that Israelis feel abandoned by the West since Middle East peace went off the US agenda in the past couple of years and that they have decided to look after themselves. This election result reinforces the message.

Inevitably, enemies of the Jewish state, including some Australians, will argue the election is another example of Israeli aggression. Hamas has already condemned Israelis for voting for extremists. This is a bit rich coming from an organisation whose official position is that Israel should not exist. But the way Hamas will receive a sympathetic hearing reflects the assumption that the democratically elected Government of Israel is guilty of war crimes, most recently in Gaza, for defending its citizens against terrorist attack. In withdrawing from the enclave, Israel went a long way to giving Hamas what it said it wanted, but the attacks did not stop.

Even if Hamas had agreed to negotiate a permanent peace -- not a half-baked ceasefire -- after last month's Israeli incursion into Gaza, Ms Livni would have been able to argue that there was a reason to keep talking. But by continuing to lob the occasional rocket across the border and encouraging its international allies to condemn Israel, Hamas helped many voters make up their minds. Whoever finally forms the next government, it is clear appeasement is off the Israeli agenda. The choice is now with Hamas. Like the Fatah Government of the West Bank, Hamas can accept reality and deal with Israel. The resulting peace is not perfect but it does mean people on the West Bank have some semblance of normal life. Alternatively, Hamas can keep on sniping from within the almost entirely built-up area of Gaza and blaming the Israelis for the civilian casualties when they shoot back. The absence of support for Hamas from Muslim states in the Middle East, excepting the extremist Government of Iran, demonstrates what governments all over the region think Hamas should do. But whatever it decides, it now knows what will happen next time it starts a fight across the frontier."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 01:31 AM

Guest Emma B, now would that be the same BBC News Service that even as we post away here on Mudcat is spending hundreds of thousands of pounds trying its best to suppress a report that states quite clearly that its reporting of the Palestine/Israeli conflict is totally biased against Israel??

According to the latest round in court, thankfully they are losing. The man who has taken then to court has stated that he is prepared to take it as far as the Freedom Of Information Act can go. The tough choice for the BBC is of course that the more they fight it the guiltier they look.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 11:00 AM

I thought the BBC was one of the stations that refused to broadcast the Palestine Emergency appeal?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 11:58 AM

"A closed mind is a closed mind"

This is why I have a 'closed mind' in relation to the so-called cease fires.

From Jerusalem Post today:
"IAF aircraft struck in the Gaza Strip town of Khan Yunis Friday afternoon, Palestinian medical officials said,AFTER [emphasis mine] two Kassam rockets were earlier fired at southern Israel."

You may read the entire article at jpost.com, or a similar one at haaretz.com

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 12:07 PM

You're right Nickhere it didn't broadcast the appeal to deflect from the charges of bias, didn't work though I believe that they are going to have to issue the report eventually.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 06:49 PM

There was another station that didn't broadcast it either, so maybe the charges of bias have been levelled at more than one station?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 08:30 PM

Don't know about charges of bias Nickhere.

With regard to the BBC, the report actually exists, the investigative stuff has all been done, according to the internal report there is no doubt whatsoever that the BBC has found that the BBC's news coverage of the Palestine/Israel conflict is decidedly biased against the Israeli's.

The current court case is related to release of that report so that its findings can be made known to the public in general.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 10:19 AM

The bloodthirsty (by their own proclaimed policy) Palestinians can't get along with each other. So how can anyone make peace with them?

Watch the Video

Activists seek 'Gaza abuses' probe Aljazeera.net Feb 8

On Sunday, Randa Siniora of the Independent Commission for Human Rights, said "There is a state of vigilantism and chaos, lawlessness in the Gaza Strip right now," "Extrajudicial killings have increased during the Israeli aggression."

Separately on Sunday, the Gaza-based Palestinian Center for Human Rights called for an investigation into the death of a man beaten in the custody of security forces loyal to the Hamas movement.

Jamil Shakoura died in a Gaza hospital after receiving a number wounds to his head while detained, the group said. He was not believed to be affiliated to any political group and it was not clear why the security forces were investigating him.

Human rights groups say that at least three people have died while in detention since Hamas seized full control of the Gaza Strip in June 2007 after pushing out security forces loyal to Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian president and head of Fatah.

Khalil Abu Shammala, a human rights monitor, told Al Jazeera that dozens of Fatah members were shot and tortured as Israeli forces bombarded the Gaza Strip for 22 days. "I don't ignore that there were some mistakes made my members of Hamas, but I think that is not a policy adopted by the leadership here"

Naem Atallah told Al Jazeera that he found the body of his son Osama, a Fatah supporter, at Gaza's Shifa hospital after he was taken away from the family home by 10 masked men."I asked them who are you? They answered that they are from the internal security. I asked how do I know you are from internal security and one showed me his ID card," he said.

Osama, a teacher and father of five children, had been strangled, suffered blunt force trauma to his head and been shot in the shoulder. Another Fatah supporter, who asked to remain anonymous for fear of reprisals, said that that he had been shot in the leg three times by Hamas loyalists.

"They shot me because I am Fatah," he told Al Jazeera. "There were 15 guys with hoods over their heads. Three of them asked me to stand against the wall and asked me my name. Three started shooting."

Hamas officials have said that they have several investigations under way into the claims of extrajudicial beatings, torture and killings. "All our investigations are open to everyone," Ihab al-Ghusain, a spokesman for the Hamas interior ministry, told Al Jazeera. "Nobody is allowed to kill anyone, beat anyone, arrest anyone."

However, all of Al Jazeera's attempts to arrange to view the files on the ongoing investigations went unanswered. Relations between Hamas and Abbas's Fatah have been strained since 2007, but Ghazi Hamad, a senior Hamas official, denied that the movement's leaders are encouraging a policy of targeting rival Palestinians."I think it's a shame for Palestinians to arrest each other or torture each other; its very shameful so we have to stop it."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 07:02 PM

Well done Israel - No truce until Gilat Shalit walks across the crossing point of his chosing from Gaza to Israel.

I would actually add the proviso that after a given date - to be determined a number of Hamas captives held by Israel will be executed up until the time that the captive Israeli soldier is released.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 02:42 AM

American Lawyers Guild's report on their investigative trip to Gaza...


What We Found in Gaza
Strong Indications of Violations of the Laws of War, U.S. Law, and War Crimes Found in the Gaza Strip

NLG Delegation

GAZA CITY - "We are a delegation of 8 American lawyers, members of the National Lawyers Guild in the United States, who have come here to the Gaza Strip to assess the effects of the recent attacks on the people, and to determine what, if any, violations of international law occurred and whether U.S. domestic law has been violated as a consequence. We have spent the last five days interviewing communities particularly impacted by the recent Israeli offensive, including medical personnel, humanitarian aid workers and United Nations representatives. In particular, the delegation examined three issues: 1) targeting of civilians and civilian infrastructure; 2) illegal use of weapons and 3) blocking of medical and humanitarian assistance to civilians.

Targeting of Civilians and Civilian Infrastructure

Much of the debate surrounding Israel's aerial and ground offensive against Gaza has centered on whether or not Israel observed principles of proportionality and distinction. The debate suggests that Israel targeted Hamas i.e., its military installations, its leaders, and its militants, and in the process of its discrete military exercise it inadvertently killed Palestinian civilians. While we have found evidence that Palestinian civilians were victims of excessive force and collateral damage, we have also found troubling instances of Palestinian civilians being targets themselves.

The delegation recorded numerous accounts of Israeli soldiers shooting civilians, including women, children, and the elderly, in the head, chest, and stomach. Another common narrative described Israeli forces rounding civilians into a single location i.e., homes, schools which Israeli tanks or warplanes then shelled. Israeli forces continued to shoot at civilians fleeing the targeted structures.

We spoke to Khaled Abed Rabbo, who witnessed an Israeli soldier execute his 2-year-old and 7-year-old daughters, and critically injure a third daughter, Samar, 4-years old, on a sunny afternoon outside his home. Two other Israeli soldiers were standing nearby eating chips and chocolates at the time on January 7, 2009. Abed Rabbo recounts standing in front of the Israeli soldiers with his mother, wife and daughters for 5 - 7 minutes before one of the soldiers opened fire on his family.

We spoke to Ibtisam al-Sammouni, 31, and a resident of Zaytoun neighborhood in Gaza City. On January 4th, the Israeli army forced approximately 110 of Zaytoun's residents into Ibtisam's home. At approximately 7 am on January 5th, the Israeli military launched two tank shells at the house without warning killing two of Ibtisam's children: Rizka, 14 and Faris, 12. When the survivors attempted to flee Israeli forces shot at them. Her son Abdullah, 7, was injured in the shelling and remained in the home among his deceased siblings for four days before Israeli forces permitted medical personnel into Zaytoun to rescue them. After medical personnel removed the injured persons, an Israeli war plane destroyed the house and it crumbled over the lifeless bodies. The dead remained beneath the rubble for 17 days before the Israeli Army permitted medical personnel to remove their bodies for burial.

We spoke to the family of Rouhiya al-Najjar, 47, who lived in Khoza'a, Khan Younis. Israeli forces ordered her neighborhoods residents to march to the city center. Rouhiya led 20 women out of her home and into the alley. They all carried white scarves. Upon entering the alley, an Israeli sniper shot Rouhiya in her left temple killing her instantly. Israeli forces prevented medical personnel from reaching her body for twelve hours. These are only some of the accounts that we've collected.

Israeli forces also destroyed numerous buildings throughout the Gaza Strip during the recent incursion. Guild delegates viewed the remains of hundreds of demolished homes and businesses - in addition to the remains of the American School in Gaza, damaged medical centers, and the charred innards of UNRWA warehouses. While in situations of armed conflict, collateral damage and mistakes can occur, the circumstances surrounding the cases that the delegation investigated indicate deliberate targeting rather than collateral damage or mistake. Specifically:

The American School at Gaza, which was hit with two F-16 missiles on January 3, 2009, killing the watch guard on duty. According to Ribhi Salem, the school's director, the Israelis gave no warnings. Mr. Salem stated that the school had come to an agreement with resistance groups not to use school grounds and there had never been resistance activity on the property."


More here...

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/02/08-0

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: DougR
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 07:32 PM

And the American Lawyer's Guild has no dog in that race, right?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 11:20 PM

Just because they're lawyers doesn't mean they have any interest in what happened in Gaza other than a desire to uncover the truth. A lot of lawyers contribute their services for free to causes that they consider important, like for instance, the cause of human rights.

However, they're not the only ones who are finding these things when they investigate. There are humanitarian organizations from all over the world who are going into Gaza and conducting investigations about what was done there, and they're finding the same things. The group in the link I posted are laywers. Other groups are not.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 12:39 AM

"American Lawyers Guild's report on their investigative trip to Gaza..." Ahhhhhhhh make that National Lawyers Guild:

Mumia Abu-Jamal is Vice President of the National Lawyers Guild
He was born Wesley Cook on April 24, 1954 and is an American who was convicted and sentenced to death for the 1981 murder of police officer Daniel Faulkner. Prior to his arrest he was a Black Panther Party activist, cab driver, and journalist. Since his conviction, his case has received international attention and he has become a controversial cultural icon. Supporters and opponents disagree on the appropriateness of the death penalty, whether he is guilty, or whether he received a fair trial During his imprisonment he has published several books and other commentaries, notably Live from Death Row. As of 2008, his legal appeals are still unsettled and he is a prisoner at State Correctional Institution Greene near Waynesburg, Pennsylvania.

NLG and the Weather Underground

Leonard Boudin, a paid agent of the Castro government since 1960, and his partner Victor Rabinowitz, were identified as members of the Communist Party, U.S.A. In addition to working for the Cuban government, Leonard Boudin is the father of Weather Underground Organization (WUO) leader Kathy Boudin. [Kathy Boudin went to prison for her involvement in an October 20, 1981, armed terrorist assault that left Nyack, New York Police Sgt. Edward O'Grady, Patrolman Waverly Brown and Brinks guard Peter Paige dead.]Starting in the early 1960s, Kathy Boudin attended receptions and functions with her parents at the Cuban Mission to the United Nations in New York. In 1965 she studied for a year in the Soviet Union, was paid 75 rubles a month by the Soviet government and, according to her resume, taught school on a Soviet collective farm. Boudin s stay in the Soviet Union was not part of any student exchange program. During this period it has been reported that the CIA intercepted correspondence between Boudin and her father in which he made arrangements for her to participate in one of the Communist World Youth Festivals.

Following the March 1970 explosion of a New York townhouse which killed three Weathermen who were constructing an anti-personnel bomb, Kathy Boudin disappeared. It was reported at the time that she and Cathy Platt Wilkerson were provided with false identification documents by the Cuban U.N. Mission with which they fled the United States for Czechoslovakia. The declassified FBI report on foreign contacts of the Weather Underground Organization produced by the FBI s Chicago Field Office reported that OnFebruary 10, 1976, a source in a position to possess such information advised that Leonard Boudin...had indicated to a friend that Kathie [sic] was presently in Cuba.

Dana H. Biberman, born February 24, 1951, is a veteran of the Columbia University SDS chapter. Biberman s sister, Nancy, was also a veteran of the Columbia University SDS. In 1968 Dana Biberman joined the NLG national office staff where she remained for some four years, organizing mass defense of demonstrators and support work for the Panther 21 and doing NLG organizational work.

During 1974 and 1975 she played an active role in the formation of the WUO s overt arm, the Prairie Fire Organizing Committee (PFOC). The FBIreport states that in March 1975 Biberman traveled to Cuba as a member of the Venceremos Brigade (VB) 8th contingent. Internal PFOC documents circulated in 1976, summing up the group s accomplishments during the previous year, noting that two PFOC members had been sent to Cuba with the Venceremos Brigade.

Biberman was an active member of the New York PFOC chapter, and its successor, the May 19th Communist Organization (M-19 CO). The M-19 CO can be characterized as the Weather Underground Organization s own incipient Communist party. With Judith Clark and Eve Rosahn, Biberman was a member of the Committee for the Suit Against Government Misconduct, a PFOC-controlled group set up to publicize a damage suit by 10 WUO associates against the United States, FBI and present and former government officials.

Kenneth Cloke, born May 18, 1941, was an active member of SDS in the mid-1960s. According to the FBI report, Cloke has directly been involved with the WUO since its submergence into the underground. It is noted that the section of the FBI report on Cloke s WUO activities notes that Cloke had been seen in contact with Bernardine Dohrn in the summer of 1971, when WUO fugitives were living in apartments in Venice, California. The report also contains two pages of additional material on Cloke s work with the WUO which has been deleted as too secret to be released. In 1967, while CPUSA veteran Victor Rabinowitz served as the NLG national president, Ken Cloke was hired as NLG national executive secretary at the same time Bernardine Dohrn was hired as national student organizer.

Also in 1967 Cloke joined the National Council of the NECLC, controlled by veteran CPUSA activists and lawyers including Victor Rabinowitz and Leonard Boudin. Cloke, and many other NLG activists with ties to the Weather Underground Organization, Black Liberation Army and Cuba,remain on the NECLC Executive Committee and National Council.

Dennis D. Cunningham, an NLG activist who has held office not only in the Chicago chapter, but has been regional vice president, had been active with the Chicago chapter of the WUO s Prairie Fire Organizing Committee since early 1975. Cunningham s WUO membership, and others, is readily verifiable in the Senate Internal Security Subcommittee report, The Weather Underground, published in 1975. Cunningham was a member of the People s Law Office, a Chicago group of NLG lawyers and legal workers, most of whom were members of the Weather Underground s PFOC, or WUO/PFOC fronts such as the New Movement in Solidarity with Puerto Rican Independence (NMSPRI), through which the WUO provides support to its terrorist comrades in the FALN and the FALN s overt political arm, the Movimiento de Liberacion Nacional(MLN).

Among the past and current members of the People s Law Office were attorneys Michael E. Deutsch, an active PFOC member; G. Flint Taylor and Jonathan C. Moore, lawyers for violence-oriented radical plaintiffs suing the Chicago Police Department for having monitored their activities.

Michael E. Deutsch, born May 9, 1945, a member of the Chicago PFOC chapter. The FBI s report on Weather Underground foreign contacts noted that NLG activists Dennis Cunningham and Jeff Haas hosted at least four meetings in their apartments to organize logistical support to WUO fugitives during the period January 7-10, 1971.

The FBI s material on Deutsch s foreign activities is deleted on national security grounds. Deutsch traveled to Cuba as part of the first official NLG delegation in the summer of 1972. According to Guild Notes (Vol. I, No. 3,Sept-Oct 1972), the NLG delegation also included Karen Jo Koonan of Los Angeles, closely associated with the WUO leadership; and Margaret Burnham, the step-daughter of the late CPUSA Political Committee member Hyman Lumer. Burnham went on to become a Municipal court judge inBoston, and an official of the National Alliance Against Racist and Political Repression (NAARPR), a CPUSA front directed at the prisoner-organizing and civil rights movements.

Bernardine Dohrn was hired by the NLG as National Student Organizer in 1967. While still an NLG representative she traveled to Budapest, Hungary in September 1968 to meet with representatives of North Vietnam and the Vietcong terrorists. In July 1969 Dohrn and other SDS Weatherman leaders traveled to Cuba for more meetings with the Vietnamese Communists. New Left Notes (August 29, 1969) provided an eight-page special supplement describing what took place and stating that the Vietcong wanted the Weathermen to organize violent protests in the United States against support of South Vietnam.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 01:15 AM

From the National Lawyers Guild "about" page. They've been very successful in the past in advocating for social justice on many levels. And as I said, there are many other humanitarian organizations who are seeing and reporting the same kinds of things as this organization, so it's not their word against that of everyone else.


Mission

The National Lawyers Guild is an association dedicated to the need for basic change in the structure of our political and economic system. We seek to unite the lawyers, law students, legal workers and jailhouse lawyers of America in an organization that shall function as an effective political and social force in the service of the people, to the end that human rights shall be regarded as more sacred than property interests.

Our aim is to bring together all those who recognize the importance of safeguarding and extending the rights of workers, women, farmers, people with disabilities and people of color, upon whom the welfare of the entire nation depends; who seek actively to eliminate racism; who work to maintain and protect our civil rights and liberties in the face of persistent attacks upon them; and who look upon the law as an instrument for the protection of the people, rather than for their repression.

History

Founded in 1937 the National Lawyers Guild was the nation's first racially integrated bar association. The first Guild lawyers supported President Roosevelt's New Deal, assisted the emerging industrial labor movement, and opposed the racial segregation policies of the American Bar Association and the larger society. During its 65 year history, the NLG has been an important part of the American people's struggle for real democracy, for economic and social justice, and against oppression and discrimination based on race, ethnicity, immigration status, class, gender or sexual orientation. Consistent with its commitment to ensuring fairness and equality for all people, law students, non-lawyer legal workers and inmate legal experts are full members. The Guild elected its first African-American president in the early 1950s and its first female president in the 1960s. The first legal worker president was elected in 1996.

In the 1930s, NLG lawyers helped organize the United Auto Workers (UAW), the Congress of Industrial Organizations (CIO) and supported the New Deal in the face of determined ABA opposition. In the 1940s, Guild lawyers fought against fascists in the Spanish Civil War and WW II, and helped prosecute Nazis at Nuremburg. Guild lawyers fought racial discrimination in cases such as Hansberry v. Lee, the case that struck down segregationist Jim Crow laws in Chicago and entered our culture as Lorraine Hansberry's "A Raisin in the Sun". The Guild was one of the non-governmental organizations (NGOs) selected by the U.S. Government to officially represent the American people at the founding of the U.N. in 1945.

In the late 1940s and 50s, Guild members founded the first national plaintiffs personal injury bar association that became the American Trial Lawyers Association (ATLA), and pioneered the storefront law offices for low-income clients that became the model for the community-based offices of the Legal Services Corporation. During the "McCarthy era", Guild members represented the Hollywood Ten, the Rosenbergs, and thousands of victims of the anti-communist hysteria. Unlike all other national civil liberties groups and bar associations, the Guild refused to require "loyalty oaths" of its members and the NLG was unjustly labeled "subversive" by the government. The Justice Department admitted the charges were baseless after ten years of federal litigation.

In the 1960s, the Guild set up offices in the South and organized thousands of volunteer lawyers and law students to provide legal support for the Civil Rights Movement long before the federal government was involved. Guild members represented the families of murdered civil rights activists Schwerner, Chaney and Goodman, who were assassinated by local law enforcement members of the Ku Klux Klan. Guild-initiated lawsuits brought the Kennedy Justice Department directly into the Civil Rights struggle in Mississippi and challenged the seating of the all-white Mississippi delegation at the 1964 Democratic Convention. Guild lawyers defended thousands of civil rights activists who were arrested for exercising basic rights and established new federal constitutional protections in ground-breaking Supreme Court cases such as: Dombrowski v. Pfister, which enjoined thousands of racially-motivated state court criminal prosecutions; Goldberg v. Kelly, the case that established the concept of "entitlementsf" to social benefits which require Due Process protections; and, Monell v. Dept. of Public Services, which held municipalities liable for brutal police employees.

More here...

http://nlg.org/aboutus/history.php

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 01:27 AM

"Since the sentence, new claims contradicting the trial evidence have surfaced.

Eighteen years after the slaying, Arnold Beverly claimed that, "wearing a green (camouflage) army jacket", he had run across the street and shot Daniel Faulkner as part of a contract killing because Faulkner was interfering with graft and payoff to corrupt police.[41] Private investigator George Newman claimed in 2001 that Chobert had recanted his testimony.[42] Cynthia White either died in 1992 or disappeared,[43] and it was subsequently alleged that she falsified her testimony.[44] Kenneth Pate, a stepbrother of Priscilla Durham who was imprisoned with Abu-Jamal on other charges, has since claimed that Durham admitted to not hearing the hospital confession.[45] The hospital doctors have claimed that Abu-Jamal was not capable of making such a dramatic bedside confession at that time.[7]"...

...In 2001, he received the biannual Lübeck Erich Mühsam Prize, awarded by Frank-Thomas Gaulin of Kunsthaus Lübeck, for special commitment to human rights.[94] In October 2002, he was conferred honorary membership of the Berlin-based Association of Those Persecuted by the Nazi Regime – Federation of Antifascists and Antifascist Groups (VVN-BdA).[95]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mumia_Abu-Jamal

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 02:39 AM

What kind of justice did Daniel Faulkner get from the vice president of the NLG, Mumia Abu-Jamal?

Faulkner was murdered, shot in the back 4 times and once in the face, by Mumia Abu-Jamal for trying to arrest his brother. He was convicted twice in a court of law and he is in prison and claiming injustice like a murdering Palestinian.

Daniel J. Faulkner was a police officer in the American city of Philadelphia who was shot and killed in the line of duty by Mumia Abu-Jamal. The slaying was the culmination of a traffic stop in downtown Philadelphia, not initially involving Abu-Jamal, which escalated into an exchange of gunfire in which Abu-Jamal was himself shot and wounded by officer Faulkner.

On December 9, 1981, between three thirty and four o'clock in the morning, Philadelphia Police Officer Daniel Faulkner stopped the driver of a light blue Volkswagen at the corner of Thirteenth Street and Locust Street for driving the wrong way down a one-way street.

Officer Faulkner had the driver exit the vehicle.

As Officer Faulkner was speaking with the driver, the driver struck Officer Faulkner in the face. Officer Faulkner struck the driver back and attempted to take him into custody. As Officer Faulkner was attempting to subdue the driver, the driver's brother came running from a parking lot across the street from the spot where Officer Faulkner had the driver of the Volkswagen.

While Officer Faulkner's back was turned, the brother of the driver, Mumia Abu-Jamal, opened fire, striking Officer Faulkner in the back four times. Officer Faulkner fell to the ground, but was able to turn around, reach for his own firearm, and fire at Abu-Jamal, striking him in the chest. Abu-Jamal, now standing over Officer Faulkner, fired four shots at close range. One shot struck Officer Faulkner between the eyes and entered his brain.

The suspect attempted to flee but fell to the ground several feet from where he had just shot Officer Faulkner. When back-up officers arrived they found Officer Faulkner mortally wounded and the suspect, murder weapon in hand, laying several feet away.

made a traffic stop of a Volkswagen driven by William Cook, Abu-Jamal's brother, on Locust Street between 12th and 13th Streets, in Philadelphia. Officer Faulkner radioed for backup assistance, and both men exited their vehicles. A struggle ensued, and Officer Faulkner tried to secure Cook's hands behind his back. At that moment, Abu-Jamal, who was in a parking lot on the opposite side of the street, ran toward Officer Faulkner and Cook. As he approached, Abu-Jamal shot Officer Faulkner in the back. As Officer Faulkner fell to the ground, he was able to turn around, reach for his own firearm, and fire at Abu-Jamal, striking him in the chest. Abu-Jamal, now standing over Officer Faulkner, fired four shots at close range. One shot struck Officer Faulkner between the eyes and entered his brain.

Abu-Jamal collapsed nearby and was taken into custody by responding police officers. Daniel Faulkner was pronounced dead the same night. Abu-Jamal was charged with murder in the first degree and convicted of that charge in 1982.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 03:25 AM

"Since the sentence, new claims contradicting the trial evidence have surfaced.

Eighteen years after the slaying, Arnold Beverly claimed that, "wearing a green (camouflage) army jacket", he had run across the street and shot Daniel Faulkner as part of a contract killing because Faulkner was interfering with graft and payoff to corrupt police.[41] Private investigator George Newman claimed in 2001 that Chobert had recanted his testimony.[42] Cynthia White either died in 1992 or disappeared,[43] and it was subsequently alleged that she falsified her testimony.[44] Kenneth Pate, a stepbrother of Priscilla Durham who was imprisoned with Abu-Jamal on other charges, has since claimed that Durham admitted to not hearing the hospital confession.[45] The hospital doctors have claimed that Abu-Jamal was not capable of making such a dramatic bedside confession at that time.[7]".

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 04:03 AM

I am not bothered about starting an argument about the who's, what's and wherefore's of the NLG.

Surely the point is - "Is what they wrote true?"

They name names so it is not unsupported - and from what people say on here and other reports much of it seems to be supported from elsewhere.

Now in the UK you can shoot someone - have the gun that did it - loads of witnesses and still no-one is charged with doing it.

Surely things are better in Gaza?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 10:05 AM

Claims, allegations, conspiracies, Yes that is what truth is all about isn't it? The grassy knoll, non existant airliners. What someone wrote in a book written with a profit motive. What another prisoner said.

Jury trial do not even enter the picture do they? Even when two trial produced the same results.

How about the other criminal members of NLG?

Kathy Boudin went to prison for her involvement in an October 20, 1981, armed terrorist assault that left Nyack, New York Police Sgt. Edward O'Grady, Patrolman Waverly Brown and Brinks guard Peter Paige dead.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 11:10 AM

"...In 2001, he received the biannual Lübeck Erich Mühsam Prize, awarded by Frank-Thomas Gaulin of Kunsthaus Lübeck, for special commitment to human rights.[94] In October 2002, he was conferred honorary membership of the Berlin-based Association of Those Persecuted by the Nazi Regime – Federation of Antifascists and Antifascist Groups (VVN-BdA).[95]"

Boy, I know I for one am really impressed by the citation of those groups! [voice oozes with contempt] Where can I join up? [twinkle in eyes]

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 12:33 PM

"Eighteen years after the slaying, Arnold Beverly claimed that, "wearing a green (camouflage) army jacket", he had run across the street and shot Daniel Faulkner as part of a contract killing because Faulkner was interfering with graft and payoff to corrupt police"

Abu-Jamal decided not to use Beverly because Abu-Jamal was "far too honorable to propagate a lie upon which to build a case for his freedom.

"Cynthia White either died in 1992 or disappeared, and it was subsequently alleged that she falsified her testimony."

Cynthia White, a prostitute, claimed to see a man emerge from a nearby parking lot and shoot Faulkner.

"Kenneth Pate, a stepbrother of Priscilla Durham who was imprisoned with Abu-Jamal on other charges"

Abu-Jamal's brother, William Cook, did not testify or make any statement until 2001 when he claimed that he had not seen who had shot Faulkner.

In his version of events, detailed in a sworn statement almost 20 years afterwards, Abu-Jamal claimed that he was sitting in his cab across the street when he heard shouting, then saw a police vehicle, then heard the sound of gunshots. Upon seeing his brother appearing disoriented across the street, Abu-Jamal ran to him from the parking lot and was shot by a police officer. The statement includes no mention of the gun that was found nearby him at the crime scene nor the corresponding firearms shoulder holster he was found to be wearing at the time of his arrest.

He continues to write a Saturday weekly column for the German language Marxist newspaper "junge Welt".

In October 2002, he was conferred honorary membership of the Berlin-based Association of Those Persecuted by the Nazi Regime – Federation of Antifascists and Antifascist Groups (VVN-BdA).

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 01:28 PM

Facts about Mumia's 1982 trial:

* The policeman was killed with a 44 caliber gun. Abu-Jamal's gun which he was licensed to carry as a night-time taxi driver, was a 38 caliber.

* The police never tested Abu-Jamal's gun to see if it had been recently fired. They never tested his hands to see if he had fired a gun. They have never shown Abu-Jamal 's gun to be the fatal weapon.

* No police officers present at Abu-Jamal's arrest claimed to have heard Jamal's "confession" until two months after it allegedly occurred. This was right after Abu-Jamal had filed police brutality charges.

* Abu-Jamal's doctor said that Abu-Jamal, who was unconscious, said nothing. He reported that a nurse found police with loaded guns pointed at Mumia as he lay unconscious in his hospital bed.

* William Singletary, a Vietnam veteran and local businessman, saw the whole incident and has testified that Abu-Jamal was not the shooter. However, the police forced him to change his story and intimidated him into leaving Philadelphia.

* Other key witnesses, such as Veronica Jones -- who now testifies in support of Abu-Jamal, were harassed into giving false testimony. Two prosecution witnesses were given special favors, including exemption from criminal prosecution, for their testimony.

Elements in an unfair trial:

* The Judge, Albert Sabo, sentenced more people to death than any other sitting judge in the US.

* The public defender didn't interview a single witness in preparation for the trial, and didn't have funds for defending a capital case.

* The prosecutor removed 11 qualified African Americans from the jury. He also argued for the death penalty because of Mumia's membership in the Black Panther Party, a practice later condemned as unconstitutional by the US Supreme Court.

* The racial bias of Philadelphia's courts has resulted in 120 people on death row, all but 13 non-white.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 05:32 PM

As for your talking points propaganda from freemumia.org Could that website possibly be biased?

"* The policeman was killed with a 44 caliber gun. Abu-Jamal's gun which he was licensed to carry as a night-time taxi driver, was a 38 caliber."Jamal's own ballistics expert, George Fassnacht, conceded in his 1995 PCRA testimony that the fatal bullet was not .44 caliber, and that it was most "likely" a .38. Although the D.A.'s officer offered in open court to let Jamal's attorneys test the fatal bullet, they refused this offer, and have never offered any alternative test results to counter the above evidence.

---

"* The police never tested Abu-Jamal's gun to see if it had been recently fired. They never tested his hands to see if he had fired a gun. They have never shown Abu-Jamal 's gun to be the fatal weapon." Mumia hands were not tested due to the FACT the test would be compromised because of the struggle with the police officer.
Attorney Anthony Jackson asked Anthony Paul if the general rifling characteristics etched of the bullet removed from Officer Faulkner's brain matched the pattern found in the barrel of Jamal's gun. Mr. Paul states that they clearly do match Jamal's gun.
"The general characteristics being part of the eight lands and grooves and a right hand direction of twist, you have a part of that [bullet] still exposed with sufficient quantity to be able to say that a firearm rifled with eight lands and grooves with a right hand direction of twist discharged that projectile."

---

* No police officers present at Abu-Jamal's arrest claimed to have heard Jamal's "confession" until two months after it allegedly occurred. This was right after Abu-Jamal had filed police brutality charges. Abu-Jamal's doctor said that Abu-Jamal, who was unconscious, said nothing. He reported that a nurse found police with loaded guns pointed at Mumia as he lay unconscious in his hospital bed.The confession occurred outside, in front of the automatic doors to the Emergency Room, a considerable time before the doctor saw him. By then he was nearly comatose. The nice man violently struggled with the police and refused treatment and a court order has to be obtained which took hours.
The confession was heard by a hospital security guard and reported by her the next day. Officers Gary Bell and Gary Wakshul each stated that they failed to write about the confession in their reports because they were emotionally devastated after seeing their friend and partner with a fatal hole in his head. They did not even remember what they had written in their reports immediately after the shooting.
Priscilla Durham, a black person, stated that she had no idea who Mumia Abu-Jamal was when he made his statements as he lay on the ground, outside the Emergency Room doors.
"At this time I didn't know [who he was]... all I did was hear him say, I shot the mother fucker and I hope the mother fucker dies."

---

* William Singletary, a Vietnam veteran and local businessman, saw the whole incident and has testified that Abu-Jamal was not the shooter. However, the police forced him to change his story and intimidated him into leaving Philadelphia. William Singletary testified. The only witness put forward by the defense who has claimed in court to have seen someone other than Abu-Jamal kill Officer Faulkner. Singletary insisted that Abu-Jamal wore a "safari suit like the Arabs wear" at the crime scene. He stated that he observed a police helicopter "circling overhead" that escaped the notice of everyone else in the area. the Philadelphia police department did not own a hellicopter.

---

Other key witnesses, such as Veronica Jones -- who now testifies in support of Abu-Jamal, were harassed into giving false testimony. Two prosecution witnesses were given special favors, including exemption from criminal prosecution, for their testimony. At the 1996 hearing, Ms. Jones repeatedly appeared quite confused as to whom she had spoken to about anything in 1982. She stated that a factor contributing to her confused state in 1996 was her heavy drug use throughout the 1980's.
In addition to her alleged conversation with Cynthia White, Ms. Jones, who in 1982 had been arrested on an armed robbery charge, now claims that she too was visited by police officers while awaiting trial. She alleges that these officers offered her a deal similar to the one allegedly provided for Ms. White, and that they threatened to go hard on her in regards to her pending armed robbery charge, if she didn't cooperate with them. Ms. Jones recollection regarding the facts of her own alleged meeting with police in 1982 is very unclear. While testifying in 1996, she was unable to remember what the specifics of this alleged deal were and she failed to remember how the deal was to benefit her, beyond being given a break on her pending felony case. Further, Jones couldn't remember the names of the officers that allegedly visited her or when the visit occurred.* The Judge, Albert Sabo, sentenced more people to death than any other sitting judge in the US. This claim has never been proven since no such statistics are collected, nor have they ever been collected in the United States.

---

* The public defender didn't interview a single witness in preparation for the trial, and didn't have funds for defending a capital case.>tt> The Judge initially agreed to Abu-Jamal's request to represent himself, with criminal defense attorney Anthony Jackson acting as his legal advisor. Thus Jamal should have done the interviewing. During the first day of the trial this decision was reversed and Jackson was ordered to resume acting as Abu-Jamal's sole advocate by reason of what the judge deemed to be intentionally disruptive actions on Abu-Jamal's part.

---

* The prosecutor removed 11 qualified African Americans from the jury. He also argued for the death penalty because of Mumia's membership in the Black Panther Party, a practice later condemned as unconstitutional by the US Supreme Court. Jamal represented himself throughout the jury selection process, and personally participated in the selection of each and every juror. He used his peremptory challenges (each side gets 20 of these, each of which allows them to reject one potential juror at their discretion) to remove an unknown number of white potential jurors -- although, at the time, no one thought to accuse Jamal of rejecting white people because of their race.

---

* The racial bias of Philadelphia's courts has resulted in 120 people on death row, all but 13 non-white. There are currently 231 prisoners on Death Row in Pennsylvania. Of the 231 Death Row prisoners, 141 are black, 70 are white, 18 are Latino and 2 are Asian.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 07:07 PM

I guess the Free Mumia site could be about as biased as the Justice for Daniel Faulkner site that is quoted in the post above.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 09:20 PM

From Amnesty International...

The prosecution of Mumia Abu-Jamal was built upon three pillars: the testimony of eyewitnesses; ballistics evidence; and an alleged confession by the accused. After a thorough study of original trial documents, Amnesty International has determined that the veracity of each of these three pillars is in sufficient doubt to make a new trail essential.

Key concerns

            -The three prosecution eyewitnesses substantively altered their description of what they saw between their original statements to police and their trial testimony.
            -The witnesses were confused and unclear about the height of the shooter, what clothes he was wearing, in which hand he held the gun, and whether he ran away from the scene.
            -The alleged confession, reportedly crucial to the jury's decision and sentencing, was first reported more than two months after the shooting.
            -The alleged confession directly contradicted the contemporaneous notes of one of the alleged witnesses to the confession (a police officer) that "the negro male made no comments." This evidence was not put before the jury.
            -There is also evidence that witnesses were offered inducements to alter their testimony in favour of the prosecution's version of events. This evidence was not put before the jury.
            -Lack of adequate ballistic tests to determine whether Abu-Jamal's gun had recently been fired. It was not determined, for instance, whether there was residue on his hands from firing a gun.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/AMR51/020/2000/en/dom-AMR510202000en.html


This video does an excellent job of debunking all of the points in the Justice for Faulkner account (by the way, they never tested Jamal's gun to determine whether or not it had been fired, and the police expert testified that he couldn't match the bullet to Jamal's gun)...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2537462601888502694



More accounts from humanitarian organizations about what was done in Gaza...

B'Tselem

International Federation for Human Rights

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/news/amnesty-international-team-talks-gaza-survivors-20090121

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/news/israeli-soldiers-leave-gaza-homes-devastated-condition-20090123

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/news/israeli-army-used-flechettes-against-gaza-civilians-20090127

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 09:34 PM

Except that one must read both sides and figure out for them selves which Facts are more plausable.

The cop was shot with a .38. It did belong to Mumia. The guy that sold it to him was found. He had a receipt for the gun signed by Mumia. the serial # matched. Balistics were checked and the bullet frags matched. He was wearing a holster for it.

Instead some people read the talking points "facts" and that is all they want to know. Case closed for them. Even Michael Moore said he did it.

Faulkners wife:

    As I pumped gas, a young man, a white kid who looked college age, pulled up behind me. He was wearing a T-shirt that read 'Free Mumia Abu-Jamal,' and it immediately caught my eye.

    I walked up and asked him where he got the T-shirt. He said he was a student at U.C.L.A. and they had recently held a rally for Abu-Jamal. I asked him if he knew anything about the case in which Abu-Jamal was involved.

    He said, "Well, I know that this guy was a Black Panther who was railroaded. Someone else shot a police officer and he was framed for it." I cringed when he went on with the usual recitation of misinformation being spun by the Abu-Jamal defenders: a peaceful black activist, a social dissident, hostile white police force, F.B.I. surveillance, conned eyewitness accounts, phony ballistics, etc.

    I heard him out and offered to provide him with the actual facts of the case. He politely declined my offer. Before I left, I suggested that when he wore a political statement on his chest he would be well served if he knew his facts, because you never know when you might run into the widow of the officer. I left him in stunned silence.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 09:35 PM

Another peaceful Muslim:

BUFFALO 'BEHEADING'

February 14, 2009

An upstate TV exec who set up a channel promoting Muslims as peace-loving people was stressed about his failing business in the days before he allegedly chopped off his estranged wife's head, a friend of the couple said today.

An order of protection barring Muzzammil Hassan, 44, from the couple's upstate home had been taken out by his wife, Aasiya, 37, less than a week before she died.

The couple was in the process of divorcing after bouts of domestic violence, her lawyer told the Buffalo News.

Hassan, who founded Bridges TV in 2004 to counter anti-Islam stereotypes following 9/11, turned himself in to cops Thursday in the Buffalo suburb of Orchard Park. Police later found his beheaded wife in the TV studios.

He was charged with murder.

"He was worried about the station's future," said Dr. Khalid Qazi, a friend of the couple and president of the Muslim Public Affairs Council of Western New York, who last spoke to the Hassans a week ago.

"He was stressed, but this has left me absolutely shocked. I still cannot believe it."

Police have still not found the weapon used in the killing, an officer said today.

Bridges TV was set up with $10 million in backing from more than 50 investors. Two years ago, Hassan told Arab News magazine he needed another $5 million and was reaching out to supporters in Saudi Arabia.

Hassan, a father of four who moved to the United States from Pakistan 25 years ago, worked as a banker in Buffalo before quitting to start up the station.

The family home was empty today. A police note stuck to the door five hours before Aasiya's body was found asked her to contact cops.

Nobody at the Orchard Park Police Department today could explain why officers wanted to speak to her.

Qazi said the killings went against the teachings of Islam and damaged the image of Muslims that Hassan worked to promote.

"Domestic violence is despicable, and Islam condones it in no way whatever," he said.

Murders are being committed in the US every day by people of all faiths."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 09:59 PM

Italy Is Roiled by Murder of a Pakistani Woman and Other Violence Involving Immigrants

BRESCIA, Italy, Aug. 23 — A series of unrelated killings here this month has pushed this elegant city to the center of a national debate on the challenges of immigration and cultural integration.
Skip to next paragraph
Filippo Venezia/European Pressphoto Agency

Bushra Bakum, whose husband is accused of slitting their daughter's throat, told reporters, "She was simply a daughter who did not obey."

The Brescia killings have ignited a national debate on immigration.

The trigger was the gruesome killing on Aug. 11 of Hina Saleem, a 20-year-old woman whose family moved here from Pakistan and who was found buried, with her throat slit, in the garden of her family home in a small town about 12 miles north of Brescia.

The tragedy ballooned into a cause célèbre after media reports alleged that Ms. Saleem had been killed because her traditionalist Muslim father objected to her Western lifestyle. She smoked and wore revealing, low-slung jeans like many young women. News reports said she had been living with an Italian man. Her body was found after her boyfriend reported her missing.

Her father and uncle have been arrested in the case. [A brother-in-law turned himself in on Thursday, and an unidentified fourth man, also of Pakistani descent, was arrested Friday and accused in the case, the ANSA news agency reported.]

"She was always happy," said Multani Gurmail, her boss at the Antica India restaurant, where she had worked as a waitress. "I knew she had some problems. I didn't realize how bad they were."

The killing, and a series of other unrelated slayings involving immigrants that followed, has stirred anti-immigrant statements from some residents and groups. It also has prompted front-page debate about what can happen when conservative beliefs collide with the mores of more permissive societies, and has highlighted the generation gap between parents who have immigrated to Italy from countries with conservative social and religious traditions and their Westernized children.

Muslim leaders, who have condemned the killing, say they resent accusations that Ms. Saleem was murdered as a result of her family's religious beliefs.

"For us, murder is a sin, not only a crime," said Mahmood Tariq, the director of the Muhammadiah Islamic Cultural Association in Brescia. "This is an exceptional case," he added, describing the murder as a question of tension between members of the Saleem family. "Cases like this happen in all societies."

On Thursday, Ms. Saleem's mother, Bushra Bakum, dismissed notions that religion had played a role in the killing. She told reporters that Ms. Saleem had been a constant worry to her parents.

"She stayed out without explanation, we never knew where she was and with whom, she was simply a daughter who did not obey," Ms. Bakum said. She also said she would not forgive her husband. "It's his fault and no one else's."]

A few days after Ms. Saleem's body was found, a young Italian woman was found dead in a Brescia church. A Sri Lankan immigrant who assisted the priest has been arrested in the case.

On Aug. 21, an immigrant from Morocco was arrested and charged with killing a notable painter here, and this week a Pakistani man was knifed to death during what appears to have been a robbery. It is still unclear whether the assailants were immigrants.

The result has been a round of anti-immigrant talk. A lawmaker from the anti-immigration Northern League, Angelo Alessandri, told ANSA that immigration to Italy should be limited to people who "are socially, culturally and religiously compatible with our way of life and legislation." Some residents of this wealthy provincial capital east of Milan, in one of Italy's most industrialized areas, have been venting their anger to the news media.

"The mayor tells us we have to live with them, but the immigrants don't reciprocate, and this isn't their city," said Gloria Gatta, the owner of a cafe on the Via San Faustino, a street lined with shops catering to the neighborhood's growing African and Asian population.

Things in Brescia have gotten so bad, she said, that "people are afraid to go out after dark."

Comments like these prompted the mayor's office to issue a statement addressing the recent deaths and pledging increased security measures.

Citing Ms. Saleem's case, the statement said the city would work to ensure that women's rights were respected "against any tribal or fundamentalist point of view."

The anger has Brescia's residents of Pakistani descent worried.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 10:04 PM

Hamas moves in

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 10:14 PM

"Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant.

The Qur'an should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on earth"

Omar Ahmed, Chairman of the Board of the Council of American Islamic Relations

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 10:23 PM

Baby Beheaded in Saudi Supermarket

An Enraged Uncle Beheaded an 15-Month-Old Baby in Front of Mother

ABC News

Saudi Arabians recoiled this week at the news that a man allegedly decapitated a 15-month-old baby before his mother's eyes inside a crowded Riyadh supermarket.

"It was shocking for everyone. No one can believe it happened. … It was very depressing," said Samar Fatany, a journalist and women's rights activist in Riyadh.

On Sunday morning a 25-year-old Syrian man beheaded his nephew at Al-Marhaba supermarket, Arab News reported. The man reportedly killed the child after an argument with his sister and brother-in-law.

"It happened so quickly. Before people could intervene, the man had cut more than half way through the child's neck," said Abu Muhammad, a grandfather in his mid-60s, told Arab News.

"He was doing it to get back at his brother-in-law who was always threatening to take the child away from his sister," said Fatany, a contributor to the Arab News.

Some onlookers reportedly fainted at the sight of the body. The accused man was taken into custody and is expected to face the death penalty.

"There were plenty of witnesses, the facts of the case are clear, the evidence is abundant," said Christoph Wilcke, of Human Right's Watch, and an expert on Saudi Arabian law

Wilcke adds, however, that under Saudi law, even if a judge ruled for the death penalty the victim's family could choose to pardon the killer -- perhaps more of a possibility in this case because the alleged killer and victim are related.

If it turns out the the man snapped as the result of mental illness he could also be eligible for a pardon, though Wilcke says that is uncommon.

"I've never heard the insanity defense work in this Saudi Arabia. The concept of mental capacity exists, I just can't think of a real case where it applied," Wilcke said.

This is the latest in a handful of criminal justice cases in Saudi Arabia that have grabbed Western attention in the last year.

In December 2008 a Saudi Arabian rape victim was charged with jail time and 200 lashes after being found in a car with a man to whom she was not related - a verdict that prompted international outrage from Human Rights Watch and other foreign observers, including the White House and U.S. presidential contenders Sen. Hilary Clinton and Sen. Barack Obama. The woman, known anonymously in the Saudi press as "Qatif Girl" was eventually released from jail and later pardoned by Saudi King Abdullah.

Fawza Falih, a Saudi woman, is currently awaiting execution after being found guilty of witchcraft in 2005. Dozens of Saudi men were arrested last month for allegedly flirting with women in front of a shopping mall in Mecca. In January, a woman was arrested after having a Starbucks coffee with a male business colleague.

"For a whole two days everybody was depressed and too shocked for words. It is not something you hear of every day here. It is not something accepted or part of the culture," said Fatany.

As the decapitation case moves forward, Saudi Arabians are left recovering from the shock.

The grandfather of a 15-month-old baby allegedly decapitated by his uncle stands in shock at his. The grandfather of a 15-month-old baby allegedly decapitated by his uncle stands in shock at his grandson's death. The uncle, a 25-year-old Syrian allegedly beheaded the toddler after an argument with his sister and brother-in-law inside a crowded Riyadh supermarket.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 10:29 PM

Hey, Sawzaw, I think we get it already!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 10:31 PM

The police expert who testified about the bullet said he couldn't match the bullet to Jamal's gun. Jamal's gun was never tested to determine whether or not it had been fired. Two of the witnesses the prosecution relied on said their testimony had been coerced. The witness who saw all of it, including who shot Officer Faulkner, was not allowed to give his version of events in court. There is no case against Mumia Abu Jamal.


All of which is entirely irrelevant to the veracity of the report from the National Lawyers Guild, which is supported by reports and testimony from numerous other humanitarian organizations.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 10:33 PM

Yeah, somebody is starting to look like they're trying to convince us that all Muslims should be eliminated. I can see how that person might be starting to make their own side in the argument look bad.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 10:57 PM

Peaceful Islam

The message is coming from Muslims that all other religions should be eliminated.

That is if you read what they are saying and take it for face value.

But you have a unique talent for blaming yourself for what they are saying.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 11:03 PM

Islamic Jihad Video of Beheaded Israeli in Gaza Emerges

A video from Palestinian Islamic Jihad of a beheaded Israeli is being distributed on the internet. The video shows a crowd of Palestinians in Gaza, including children, shouting "Allahu akhbar!" (God is great) as a terrorist as a terrorist takes the head out of a bag and holds it up for the cheering crowd. Jihadi music plays in the background and the crowd is visibly ecstatic.

Visual evidence suggest that the victim may have been killed first, and then beheaded later.

This should serve as a reminder that beheading those deemed 'infidels' and 'apostates' has a long tradition in Islamic culture and in Palestine.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 11:37 PM

NLG member attorney Lynne Stewart was charged with transmitting terrorist communications from prison for Omar Abdel-Rahman, her former client and mastermind of the 1993 World Trade Center bombings.

Stewart was ultimately convicted of the charges and sentenced to 28 months in federal prison.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 12:03 AM

There are over a billion Muslims in the world. If they all felt that all other religions should be eliminated, they would have killed a hell of a lot more people than they have by now. However, that has nothing whatever to do with the situation in occupied Palestine, which has Christians as well as Muslims (and also Jews) living there.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 01:37 AM

Someone painting every Muslim with that same general brush again. I do wish this kind of painting would confine itself to the trash bin where it belongs.

Bary

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 02:04 AM

"There are over a billion Muslims in the world. If they all felt that all other religions should be eliminated, they would have killed a hell of a lot more people than they have by now. However, that has nothing whatever to do with the situation in occupied Palestine, which has Christians as well as Muslims (and also Jews) living there."

Let's take the first bit:

"There are over a billion Muslims in the world. If they all felt that all other religions should be eliminated, they would have killed a hell of a lot more people than they have by now."

Now I remember somebody saying something similar to that regarding the charge that the Israeli's were guilty of "Genocide" - If the Israeli forces were following a deliberate policy of genocide then they would have killed a far larger number of citizens in Gaza than the 0,04% that they have. Now for some reason that cut no-ice with CarolC.

The second bit:

"However, that has nothing whatever to do with the situation in occupied Palestine, which has Christians as well as Muslims (and also Jews) living there."

Well there might be a bare modicum of multi-culturalism in the West Bank CarolC, but the Palestinian Arabs and Hamas have chased all the others, bar the most stubborn, out of Gaza. Hell even the Bedouin Arabs decided to quit and leave when the Isrealis pulled out. Doubt that then take a look at the demographics of:

- Israel
- West Bank
- Gaza

Then tell me which is the most tolerant, multi-cultural society.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 05:08 AM

There are still Christians in Gaza, and even Jews. Hamas hasn't chased anyone out.


On the subject of genocide, the Israeli government knows that it can't get rid of them all at once without experiencing a huge backlash and losing all of their support in Western countries, including the US. It knows that it has to do things more gradually so it can have plausible deniability. As it is, because of its recent actions in Gaza, it has lost a lot of support, and the movement to free the Palestinians has gained an enormous amount of momentum that is continuing to build, as we can see by the numerous universities that are divesting from the Israeli occupation of Palestine. Israel really shot itself in the foot with this last one, and it is losing support fast.

Hampshire College was the first school to divest from apartheid South Africa, and it has just divested from the Israeli occupation of Palestine. The situation is very close to reaching the tipping point if it hasn't already. I read somewhere that it took many years for the situation in South Africa to reach the tipping point, but that when it did, the change happened very quickly. People are paying a lot more attention now, and they aren't buying the hasbara propaganda anywhere near as much as they used to.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 06:44 AM

CarolC,

You state: "There are still Christians in Gaza, and even Jews. Hamas hasn't chased anyone out."

This ius a false statement. Thay did chase out many Fatah supporters.

You can reasonably say ONLY "There are still Christians in Gaza, and even Jews. Hamas hasn't chased EVERYONE out."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 08:21 AM

We were talking about religious groups (which can be verified by looking at the relevant posts), not political groups. Hamas hasn't chased out any religious groups.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 08:24 AM

So you claim there are as many "other" religion's people in Gaza now as before Hamas took over???

I doubt that.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 08:26 AM

I should correct this one -

Hampshire College was the first US school to divest from apartheid South Africa...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 08:27 AM

They haven't chased any groups out.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 08:29 AM

And Israel has not chased ANY groups of Moslims out, since there is still a Moslim population in Israel- far greater than the Jewish population of Gaza.

So no more comments about Israel driving the Moslims out, ok?

Or do you still apply different rules to Jews than Moslims????

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 08:29 AM

However, if anyone is making any assertions that Hamas has chased out any individuals of the groups in question (Christians and Jews) since taking power, just because the individuals in question were Christians and Jews, I would like to see the evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 08:30 AM

However, if anyone is making any assertions that Israel has chased out any individuals of the groups in question (Moslims) since taking power, just because the individuals in question were Moslims, I would like to see the evidence.

Please.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 08:30 AM

I never said that Israel had chased out all of the Muslims from Palestine. Although that is it's goal.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 08:31 AM

LOL!!!!!!!


I never said Israel chased anyone out because they were Muslims, either. They have chased out a hell of a lot of Arabs, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 08:37 AM

And stop saying I've said things that I've never said. Either get my words right, or don't try to repeat them.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 09:13 AM

I asked CarolC to look at the demographics - of course she didn't. But none-the-less here they are:

Take a look at the demographics by ethnic group of:

- Israel (Arab 19.4%; Jewish 76.0%; Other 4.6%)

- West Bank (Arab 83% - Includes 8% Christian Arabs; Jewish 17% - all of whom are Israeli citizens)

- Gaza (Arab 99.4%; Jewish 0%; Christian 0.6%)

Then tell me which is the most tolerant, multi-cultural society.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 04:17 PM

There's Jews in both the West Bank and Gaza who are not there as settlers. But they don't get counted because the government of Israel finds them to be an embarrassment.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 04:33 PM

Perhaps you can correct the figures then CarolC.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 04:42 PM

I don't think anyone is keeping track of how many are in either place. In the case of Gaza, the number probably fluctuates all the time, because they are involved there as solidarity activists. The West Bank also has a lot of solidarity activists, but there are Jews living there permanently as Palestinians (not as Israeli settlers) as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 04:50 PM

That's handy you can make up the numbers and quote them entirely to suit your purpose. Apart from one thing CarolC, I thought that you said that Gaza was under seige, and that the crossings were closed and controlled by the Israelis?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 06:21 PM

"that has nothing whatever to do with the situation in occupied Palestine,"

It has everything to do with the situation in Occupied Palestine.

If you listen and read what they say and quit trying to apply your amateur psychology and conspiracy theories to spin it some other way, They do obviously do not want want peace. They believe to sign any kind of agreement with their enemys is a defeat. They want the Jews dead, all of them and they want the whole area, not just a piece of it and they do not mind dying in the process. They teach this to their children so it will continue forever. If they do not have any Jews to kill, they kill each other.

If this is not so they would have signed a peace agreement and they would have peace it they stick to the agreement. Jordan did, Egypt did. Neither one of those countries will let in the Palestinians.

They have no qualms about dying or killing for their religion which is why I have been presenting it to you but it seems to bounce off like bullets off of superman.

It is right there as plain as day for anybody that does not have impaired comprehension to see.

You are just a pawn used by groups like NLG which was created and populated by communists.

Keep bitching, keep marching and protesting but the situation will never change as long and gullible wimps and crybabies back them up.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 07:15 PM

Nevertheless, they are there, and they are reporting on their experiences from those places. So their existence cannot be denied.


Hamas has said that if the Palestinian people would vote in a referendum for a two state solution using the internationally recognized borders of Israel and Palestine, they, Hamas, would not stand in the way. The conspiracy theorists in this case are the ones who, like the above poster, are advocating for killing all of the Muslims in the world, because in their fevered imagining, all Muslims want to kill all non-Muslims.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 07:15 PM

And yes, Israel does control all of the border crossings.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 07:32 PM

Isreal controls everything... It is a control freek nation... It thinks that will make it more secure... Fools gold...

But I was heartened to see so many moderate Isrealis vote against the right wing warmongers... I think that with the election of Obama alot of folks in alot of countries think that there is hope in negotiated peace...

Just say no to warmongers!!!

Yeah, I know that just the thought of peacefull negotiations egts the usual warmongers here wringing their hands because there is nothin' that get's their harmnones going like a murder of of large numbers of people who the warmongers misguidedly think are the bad guys...

When will they ever learn, when will they ever learn...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 07:39 PM

"Yeah, I know that just the thought of peacefull[sic] negotiations egts[sic] the usual warmongers here wringing their hands because there is nothin' that get's their harmnones[sic] going like a murder of of large numbers of people who the warmongers misguidedly think are the bad guys..."


You are referring, of course, to those warmongers whose Charter and essence for being want to destroy Israel by any means possible.
Indeed, When WILL THEY ever learn?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 07:48 PM

You are speaking as someone who hasn't spent one's life as a Palestianian, John...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 08:00 PM

True. I've never spent my life as a Frenchman, or a Pole, or a Tahitian. So your point is......? There is no point.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 08:49 PM

No, John, there is a point...

I was an anti-war organizer in the 60's... What that meant was also getting alot of attention from the FBI... I had a couple dudes who followed me and my friends everyday (that's 24/7" for about 3 years... Oh yeah, I knew them and they knew me... We actually had several conversations... They took pictures of me... Lots of them...

What this taught me is how it feels to have your every move observed and noted...

Now, I think of the Palestianians and I am able to apply those experiences over 3 or so years that happened to me and tried to relate to just what it must be like to live in Gaza or the West Bank...

I do know that I lived thru 3 or so years of it but it effects me to this very day... I am still paranoid of cops... Now, if I were to apply what I feel about cops from 3 or so years of being observed then I have a mere glimpse of what it must be like to be a Palestianian...

But just a mere glimpse...

It's easy for folks who have always been part of the secured in-crowd to say "What's the point" until it's your turn to be in the fishbowl...

There was amovie that came out a few years back about such a situation... And this very successfull guy founf himself the enemy and had to survive... In the end he jumped off a roof thinking that he was going to escape by killing himself... But it was all this big game... Yeah, the name of the movie was "The Game"... and so this guy jumps off the roof from 17 stories up and lands in a net and there are all his friends applauding him...

I can see how folks get to where they get...

I think it very narrow minded for folks who live in safety to try to put themselves in the heads of folks who would find that safety so absolutely foriegn...

That is the point...

It's been better stated: Don't judege a man until you have walked in his shoes...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 09:30 PM

Well, Bobert, if that is your point, I can only assume you have never lived as a Jewish Israeli...especially one who survived Bergin-Belsen or Auswitch. You have never lived as a Palestinian Jew under pograms instigated by al-Husseini, or the Intifad instigated of that I'm sure.

Your own comment to me applies, as well, to you.

I don't judge Palestinians because they're Palestinian. I judge them by what their organizations do and say, and how they're being led. When Palestinian charters no longer call for the destuction of Jews and the country of Israel; when their schools no longer teach hatred of Israel and Jews; when they are no longer kidnapping and bombing Israelis and Jews; when they sign a binding Peace Treaty (not a phony truce) then I will judge them by those deeds.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 09:58 PM

The only warmongers in this particular situation are the Palestinians.

If I were to walk in their shoes I would act differently and make peace.

If I were to walk in the shoes of a serial killer, I would stop killing people.

I wish the hell I could walk in in the shoes of the Palestinians so I could change things.

Just because someone abhors the way extremists try to use victimization to get their way and excuse their killing, does not mean they are in favor of having a war going on all the time as if it brings some sort of satisfaction. People suffering and dying never has made me happy. Million dollar bombs being dropped while kids have to go to a cold run down school and use 10 year old obsolete books does not make me happy.

It would please me if I could wake up tomorrow and I heard that a peace deal had been struck between Israel and the Palestinians over might and all of the bloodshed had ended.

The money spent on these wars should be spent on schools and education and such, any thing but war. The loss of life is an abomination.

Are the accused "warmongers" here with we on this?

The conduct of the Palestinians deserves the warmonger designation. That is what they say. That is what they write. That is what they do. That is what they teach their children and I believe them.

Their only mention of peace is in connection with this glorious time in the future when all of the Jews are dead and Islam dominates the world.

Do any of the "warmongers" here wish that the Palestinians be wiped out? Do they wish that Islam or any other religion but their own cease and everyone be converted to their religion?

If so you can truly call them warmongers.

If I thought I could make a difference in the peace process, I would go there and shovel shit 20 hours a day 7 days a week to end it. I know I could do nothing other than become a martyr which is an extremist's mistaken idea of making a difference.

The only positive thing Carter ever did was to get Egypt and Israel to make peace and I applaud him for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 10:08 PM

Oh, John, and if you have lived thru Auswitch, then my apologies... But my guess is that you didn't... Nor, my guess, is that you have lived in any of those other scenerios...

It's easy to pick something out of history books... Its quite another to be part of that history...

I expected more from you here...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 10:19 PM

The only way the Palestinians could make peace with the Israeli government would be for them to just lay down and die, or to vanish into thin air. As long as they remain where they are, regardless of what they do or don't do, they will be the target of Israeli aggression.

The majority of deaths and injuries to Palestinians by the IDF in the West Bank in the last year were people who were engaging in peaceful protests. If the government of Israel was so keen on making peace with the Palestinians, they would encourage non-violent resistance rather than killing people who are engaging in it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 10:57 PM

Well as it turns out, neither you nor I have lived those respective scenarios. And as it turns out my degree is in History...with an emphasis on the Near East.

But I did not get all of my information from history books, which you snidely think is inappropriate.

I have known and worked with Israelis who fought in the war for Israeli independence as teen-agers. I have friends my age and older who did live through and survive (obviously) the camps. One even was a Polish Catholic. I have known and worked with Palestinian Christians who did not feel safe remaining in a Muslim Palestine. I have known and worked with Lebanese Christians who told of being stopped by Palestinians who had taken over the the southern part of that once beautiful country, much as Hezbullah has today, setting up a state within a state.

Your credentials as an anti-war activist/organizer don't make your comments about the Middle East any more nor less important to me than if you were a journeyman machinist.

As to your comment about making judgements on things and places and people that I,ve never met or been. That's pure BS. You, I, everybody at Mudcat...everybody period...so makes judgements all the time.

You have never been President of the United States...but you criticize (or laud as the case may be) the actions of presidents. I do the same thing. I don't sing or write music, but I judge the works of those who do. I have made judgements about the Israel/Palestine situation which indicated that the Israel has to make concessions.

I maintain is that the Jews have the right to have a Jewish country the same way Muslims have Islamic nations; that Israel has as much right to exist as every other country that has been established since the end of World War II.

Any belief that doesn't recognize that is wrong-headed, and perhaps even worse. Nobody said the Russia should not exist even as it took all of eastern Europe. Nobody said Britain should not exist because it as a colonial power. Nobody says the United States shouldn't exist despite it supposed bullying in the world.

Only Israel! Only Israel! Only Israel is supposed to go away as a nation! That's what a one state solution will achieve, even as intifadas and rockets won't. I would think even you would find that strange thinking, Bobert and CarolC and ifor, et.al.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 10:59 PM

"like the above poster, are advocating for killing all of the Muslims in the world"

Where in the hell is this coming from? Do you suffer from some reading handicap? Please stop saying I've said things that I've never said. Either get my words right, or don't try to repeat them.

"And yes, Israel does control all of the border crossings."

And yes, Canada, Mexico, the USA, just about any country I can think of controls all of their border crossings.

"Hamas has said that if the Palestinian people would vote in a referendum for a two state solution using the internationally recognized borders of Israel and Palestine,"

Where is this statement and what borders exactly are they talking about?

Here are highlights of the 1988 Hamas charter:

    "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).

    "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 11:18 PM

Hamas MP Fathi Hammad Jan 12, 2009:

We Used Women and Children as Human Shields

Watch Video

Fathi Hammad: "[The enemies of Allah] do not know that the Palestinian people has developed its [methods] of death and death-seeking.

For the Palestinian people, death has become an industry, at which women excel, and so do all the people living on this land.

The elderly excel at this, and so do the mujahideen and the children.

This is why they have formed human shields of the women, the children, the elderly, and the mujahideen, in order to challenge the Zionist bombing machine.

It is as if they were saying to the Zionist enemy: "We desire death like you desire life."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 11:38 PM

I have no problem with the two state solution myself, as long as it uses the internationally recognized borders, and isn't just bantustans masquerading as a "state". But the majority of Israelis don't want the two state solution...

http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/view/32819/israelis_clearly_oppose_two_state_solution/

"A majority of Israli adults oppose the formation of a Palestinian state neighbouring their own country, according to a poll by Maagar Mochot released by Channel 2. 51 per cent of respondents are against the establishment of an independent Palestinian state in Judea and Samaria, while 32 per cent support it."


So in the absence of the two state solution, the only other options are to fully annex the West Bank and Gaza and make the residents of those places Israeli citizens, or to get rid of the Palestinians living in those places. If Israel doesn't adopt one of the first two choices pretty soon, we will know that it has chosen the third option.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 11:58 PM

Israel not only controls its own border crossings, it also controls the border between Gaza and Egypt, Gaza's coastline and air space, and the West Bank's border with Jordan and the West Bank's air space. However, I was just responding to someone else's implication that Israel does not control the border crossings into Gaza.

If people are going to challenge things I say in response to other people, they ought to also read what I was responding to so they'll know why I'm saying it.

Hamas has said that if the Palestinians decide in a referendum that they will accept a state in the internationally recognized borders (that would be the Green Line), they will not try to stop it. They have said this many times.

http://www.counterpunch.org/loewenstein06122006.html

II. Hamas accepts a two-state solution. When asked by Newsweek-Washington Post correspondent Lally Weymouth on 26 February 2006 what agreements Hamas was prepared to honor, the new Hamas Prime Minister, Ismail Haniyeh answered, "the ones that will guarantee the establishment of a Palestinian State with Jerusalem as its capital with 1967 borders." Weymouth went on, "Will you recognize Israel?" to which Haniyeh responded, "If Israel declares that it will give the Palestinian people a state and give them back all their rights then we are ready to recognize them." (5) This view encapsulates the Hamas demand for reciprocity.

In an interview with CNN's Wolf Blitzer four days after the PLC elections, the new Hamas Foreign Minister, Mahmoud Zahar (considered the party's hard-liner) remarked, "We can accept to establish our independent state on the area occupied [in] 1967." Like Haniyeh and other Hamas members, Zahar insists that once such a state is established a long-term truce "lasting as long as 10, 20 or 100 years" will ensue ending the state of armed conflict between Israelis and Palestinians. (6)

Hamas government spokesman Ghazi Hamad commented to reporters on 10 May 2006, "Yes, we accept an independent state in the Palestinian territories occupied by Israel in the 1967 Middle East War. This attitude is not new and it is declared in the government's platform." (7)

In an effort to clarify the Hamas position on Abbas' call for a referendum, Hamas parliamentary speaker Aziz Duweik explained that it had nothing to do with a lack of support for the two-state settlement. "Everybody in Hamas says ëYes' to the two-state solution," he said. "The problem comes from the fact that the Israelis so far [have not said they] accept the 1967 bordersÖbetween the two states."(8)

Other leaders are just as explicit. "Hamas is clear in terms of the historical solution and an interim solution. We are ready for both: the borders of 1967, a state, elections, and agreement after 10-15 years of building trust," commented Usama Hamdan, the Hamas Chief Representative in Lebanon. (9) Notable here is that his remarks were made in 2003 well before the Hamas victory of January 2006. Indeed, it should be pointed out that most of the on-the-record comments to this effect were made prior to these elections.

Additional Hamas spokespersons who have made explicit reference to acceptance of an independent Palestinian state on the 1967 lands include Sheikh Ahmad Haj Ali, a Muslim Brotherhood leader and Hamas legislative candidate currently imprisoned in Israel (interviewed in July 2005); Muhammad Ghazal, Hamas spokesperson also currently in an Israeli jail (Sept. 2005); Hasan Yousef, West Bank political leader (August 2005); and the Hamas Electoral Manifesto Article 5:1 which calls for "adherence to the goal of defeating the [1967] occupation and establishing an independent Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital." (10)

In 1989, Hamas spiritual leader Sheikh Ahmad Yassin (assassinated by Israel in March 2004) stated, "I do not want to destroy IsraelÖ. We want to negotiate with Israel so the Palestinian people inside and outside Palestine can live in Palestine. Then the problem will cease to exist." (11)

The hard-line Hamas leader, Abdel Aziz Rantisi, assassinated by Israel in April 2004 commented in 2002 that, "[T]he Intifada is about forcing Israel's withdrawal to the 1967 borders." This "doesn't mean the Arab-Israeli conflict will be over," but rather that the armed resistance to Israel would end." (12)

In a 2004 report published by the highly regarded International Crisis Group, "During the 1987-1993 uprising, Hamas leaders proposed various formulas for Israeli withdrawal to the June 4th 1967 borders, to be reciprocated with a decades'-long truce (hudna)." That same report notes that, "In a March 1988 meeting with Israeli Foreign Minister Shimon Peres, and then with Defense Minister Rabin in June 1989, Hamas leader (now FM) Mahmud Zahar explicitly proposed an Israeli withdrawal to the 1967 boundaries, to be followed by a negotiated permanent settlement." The offer was refused. (13)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 12:44 AM

I see by your dual posting of this article, that you and Hamas are living in the past. The 1967 train has left the station. Those borders were the 1949 ending borders which could have been the Palestinian state, as we've discusssed many times. Any border solution will be very close, but it will not be congruent to 1949/67, because Israel will not give up Jerusalem, certainly not in whole.

And some people has a name. And he did not challenge things you said as a response to someone else, but as an example of the things you and others have been spouting for years. Oh, that people was me!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 12:59 AM

Palestians start them young

Very young

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 01:07 AM

http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/view/32819/israelis_clearly_oppose_two_state_solution/


What percentage of the Palestinians oppose a two state solution?

http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/view/31970

The majority of people in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip are against the creation of a Palestinian state neighbouring Israel, according to a poll by An-Najah National University. 54.3 per cent of respondents oppose the so-called two-state solution

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 01:14 AM

LOOK at the recent election results. The Israelis started out much more liberal (as in left-leaning). They have been driven to the right over the years. It will take more than empty promises from Hamas and Hexbollah and whatever organization pops up tomorrow. Face facts: Israel is NOT going away. Histrionics do not mean shit. Not now and not ever again.

Bobert, as to you expecting more from John: FAWK! I expected more from you. You have yet to see that Israel's neighbours have created this situation. You see Israel attacking anyone who is not attacking them first? This is SSDD--pissin' into the wind. IFOR and crew are old and tired Marxists. Didn't work before and it ain't working now.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 01:33 AM

Camp David 2000

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak offered:

    * Israeli redeployment from 95% of the West Bank and 100% of the Gaza Strip
    * The creation of a Palestinian state in the areas of Israeli withdrawal
    * The removal of isolated settlements and transfer of the land to Palestinian control
    * Other Israeli land exchanged for West Bank settlements remaining under Israeli control
    * Palestinian control over East Jerusalem, including most of the Old City
    * "Religious Sovereignty" over the Temple Mount, replacing Israeli sovereignty in effect since 1967

In return Arafat had to declare the "end of conflict" and agree that no further claims on Israel could be made in the future. Despite the considerable concessions by Israel, Arafat chose not to negotiate, not to make a counter-offer but to just walk out.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 02:27 AM

No, that people wasn't the person who thinks it was him. I am not allowed to mention people by name, so I can't say who it was. But it wasn't the one who is claiming it was him. It was someone else.

However, the issue of the borders is a negotiating point. But the fact that Hamas has said numerous times that it is willing to accept the existance of Israel at all (even if it's within the Green Line) proves that those who say Hamas aren't willing to accept the state of Israel at all are not telling the truth.

Israel hasn't moved to the right. All of the major political parties in Israel have always had essentially the same agenda with regard to Israel's borders and the Palestinians. That agenda is and has always been to remove them in order to solve their "demographic problem", and for Israel's lebensraum, or to "acquire our space" as Moshe Dayan put it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 02:32 AM

Wow, these hasbara people never give up with the lies.

Barak did not actually offer anything. He gave no final status offers. The land that he said he would consider possibly letting the Palestinians keep looked like this...

http://www.imemc.org/article/52185

And what little land the Palestinians would actually be allowed to use would be divided into tiny little bantustans that they would not be able to move freely from one to the other. He also did not offer to end the military occupation of Palestine. He did not offer to let the Palestinians have independence from Israeli control.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 02:34 AM

And by the way, Arafat wanted the negotiations to continue when Barack withdrew from them so he could focus on his campaign to stay in office.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: heatherblether
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 04:22 AM

Carole
is correct....time and time again it has been Israel that has scuppered any chance of a lasting and just solution in the disputed land.
The possibility of a two state solution is now practically nil because of the growing number of illegal zionist settlements on the occupied West Bank.
For some in Palestine it is driving the one man one vote solution to the fore.
Mmmm one man one vote?...it is the basis of democratic life in the West and could be overdue for a try out in the disputed lands of Israel and the occupied territories.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 07:48 AM

See, John, that's where yoou have it wrong... You don't have to have lived thru a concentartion camp experience to have empathy for those who did...

Empathy is the first step toward peace... Until one side tries to understand what it is like to be the other side there will be no progress... Right now Isreal's actions say loud and clear, "Undertand us" but don't how the ability to reciprocate...

As lonf as is stands on this selfish, me-me position there will be no peace... Getting beyond selfish, me0me-ness is the cornerstone of diplomacy... Isreal, like the US, is stuck in 21st century with a 20th century mindset...

In the words of Dr. Phil, "How's it workin' for ya'???"

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 10:23 AM

Bobert, stop with the amateur psycho-shit. Stop quoting platitudes. Stop referencing a catch phrase from a TV star who seemingly can't live his life the way he tells others to live theirs. And don't tell me what a wonderful person you are, and how bad I am by inference. I am neither impressed nor intimidated by that type of posting.

When you have something substantive to add to the discussion, get back to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 11:46 AM

"Arafat wanted the negotiations to continue when Barack withdrew"

Ass backwards.

What was Arafat's counter offer?

Exactly what did Arafat have to say but no?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 11:49 AM

Just say no to warmongers!!!

NO

Just say no to dope!!!

NO

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 11:56 AM

"Someone painting every Muslim with that same general brush again. I do wish this kind of painting would confine itself to the trash bin where it belongs.

Bary"

You are hereby invited to present anything you want to the contrary and I will not condemn it to the trash bin.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: heatherblether
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 12:03 PM

THIS IS ZIONISM!
The website ...Lenins tomb...is currently showing a video of armed Israeli troops attacking Palestinian men and women and young international observers in the illegally occupied territories.It is absolutely disgusting .
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 12:24 PM

"Don't judege a man until you have walked in his shoes..."


"Bill Gates... He's no hero... He is a thug"

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 12:59 PM

"the internationally recognized borders"

The LAST SET OF INTERNATIONALLY RECOGNIZED BORDERS was the 1923 set of Palestine, the Jewish homeland, and TransJordan, the Moslim homeland. NO BORDERS after that point have ever been accepted by the Arab nations.

http://www.unitedjerusalem.com/Graphics/Maps/PartitionforTransJordan.asp

So when do the "Palestinians" leave the West Bank and Gaza???

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 01:06 PM

"From the National Lawyers Guild "about" page. They've been very successful in the past in advocating for social justice on many levels. And as I said, there are many other humanitarian organizations who are seeing and reporting the same kinds of things as this organization, so it's not their word against that of everyone else."

Does their about page mention anything about them being communists?

According to Chip Berlet, a paralegal member of the NLG:

    In the 1950s the National Lawyers Guild refused to purge its members who were members of the Communist Party. Today there are Guild members who are cadres in a variety of communist groups along with a majority of unaffiliated members. As a paralegal investigator, I joined the Guild in the 1970s. I found an example of an organization that tried hard to incorporate the participation of cadres within a democratic structure. The cacophony at some meetings makes Star Wars seem like a minimalist film. I have chaired committee meetings with debates featuring cadres from Leninist, Trotskyist, Stalinist, and Maoist groups, along with Marxists, anarchists, libertarians, and progressive independents—interacting with a preponderance of reluctant Democrats.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 01:26 PM

Lynn Stewart, convicted lawyer for NLG

"The Pentagon was a better target. The people in the towers never knew what hit them. They had no idea that they could ever be a target for somebody's wrath, just by virtue of being American.

They took it personally. And actually, it wasn't a personal thing. As for civilian deaths in general, I'm pretty inured to the notion that in a war or in an armed struggle, people die.

They're in the wrong place, they're in a nightclub in Israel, they're at a stock market in London, they're in the Algerian outback -- whatever it is, people die."

She mentions Hiroshima and Dresden. "So I have a lot of trouble figuring out why that is wrong, especially when people are sort of placed in a position of having no other way."

So be consoled, widows and orphans of 9/11, like the Mafia hit men say, "it is not personal"


Here is a guy that never knew what hit him

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 03:02 PM

I recently had the opportunity to visit the Erez crossing where the first site that greeted me was a brand new medical center, which had been opened at the start of the unilateral ceasefire between Hamas and Israel in mid-January. Israel's Magen David Adom ambulance service, in cooperation with the Israeli Department of Health, opened the center to treat wounded Gazans, with the Israeli government investing millions of dollars into its construction.

The new Israeli medical center can handle 30 patients per hour and is staffed by paramedics and doctors who specialize in emergency medicine, pediatrics, trauma, gynecology, orthopedics, and other fields. It is equipped with state of the art laboratories, X-ray machines, and a pharmacy.

"The only problem," said Shlomo Tzaban, a manager at the Erez Crossing, "is that the medical center stands empty. No one is using it because Hamas discourages Palestinians from seeking treatment at Israeli hospitals."

Before entering Erez, Palestinians must first pass through a checkpoint on the Gaza side. Hamas controls that point on the Gaza end and therefore has complete authority on Palestinians seeking to enter Israel. Subsequently, there has been a dramatic decrease in the number of Palestinians seeking medical treatment in Israel - down to 80-90% - says Tzaban.

"Everyone in Gaza lives under Hamas control," explains Tzaban. "Hamas uses terror and fear to rule the Palestinian people." Tzaban uses the judicial system in Gaza as an example.

On December 26 2008, the Hamas parliament sanctioned that Palestinian courts were to condemn offenders according to violent punitive measures under Islamic Sharia laws. Hamas punishments for Palestinian offenders include whipping, severing hands (for stealing,) crucifixion and hanging.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 03:31 PM

Protester

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 12:16 AM

Gaza violence spirals as Hamas takes control

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 12:34 AM

T"he website ...Lenins tomb...is currently showing a video of armed Israeli troops attacking Palestinian men and women and young international observers in the illegally occupied territories.It is absolutely disgusting .
ifor"

Looks like stuff that wuld have been put there to push a book by a crap writer. Nice try, ifor.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: heatherblether
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 03:33 AM

To Peace
I certainly don't expect the apologists for mass murder in Gaza to be convinced by a homemade video showing a short incident in the occupation of the West Bank.

However, there will be many across the world who will see the video and others like it and will be disgusted by what they see.

I should have added that some of the young observers in the video are Israelis who are appalled by the violent and illegal policies of the Israeli state.
Ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 04:06 AM

Here's one for your trash bin Saw'z

James Baldwin, in a letter to his nephew wrote;

"This innocent country set you down in a ghetto in which, in fact, it intended that you should perish. Let me spell out precisely what I mean by that, for the heart of the matter is here, and the root of my dispute with my country. You were born where you were born, and faced the future that you faced because you were _____ and for no other reason. The limits of your ambition were, thus, expected to be set forever. You were born into a society which spelled out with brutal clarity, and in as many ways as possible, that you were a worthless human being. You were not expected to aspire to excellence: you were expected to make peace with mediocrity. Wherever you have turned, James, in your short time on this earth, you have been told where you could go and what you could do (and how you could do it) and where you could do it and whom you could marry."

He later goes on to say;

"I said that it was intended that you should perish in the ghetto, perish by never being allowed to go behind the white man's definitions, by never being allowed to spell your proper name. You have, and many of us have, defeated this intention; and, by a terrible law, a terrible paradox, those innocents who believed that your imprisonment made them safe are losing their grasp of reality."

Instead of James Baldwin speaking of a Black person growing up in America he could very well had written the same letter to a Palestinian growing up in the Ghetto of Gaza under the yoke of Israel
& "that the country is celebrating one hundred years of freedom one hundred years too soon."

Like Warsaw, Gaza is a Ghetto, make no mistake about it but in this ghetto of Gaza the neighborhood is a far more dangerous place to survive in. It is not a gas to live & die there!

If you'd like to read the whole letter, it is here MY DUNGEON SHOOK : LETTER TO MY NEPHEW ON THE ONE HUNDREDTH ANNIVERSARY OF THE EMANICIPATION

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 11:10 AM

"Instead of James Baldwin speaking of a Black person growing up in America he could very well had written the same letter to a Palestinian growing up in the Ghetto of Gaza under the yoke of Israel" - Barry Finn

"The Ghetto of Gaza" was created by the Egyptians and perpetuated by the Palestinian Authority and enforced by Hamas. The only yoke that the people of Gaza suffer under Barry is that of Hamas.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 12:40 PM

"Like Warsaw, Gaza is a Ghetto, make no mistake about it but in this ghetto of Gaza the neighborhood is a far more dangerous place to survive in."

Barry,

I think you need to look at the history of the Warsaw Ghetto. In spite of your fraudulant claims, Israel has not lined up troops and marched across Gaza, killing every living thing.

Youyr comparison is like saying the arrest of a person for drunk driving is equivilent to the Pol Pot Cambodian genocide.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 01:48 PM

ifor: Until such time as you and your friends declare that there are two wrong sides in this, I have little to say to you. But I owe Seymour an apology. I said that Seymour was a second-rate propaganda writer (his writing is pretty damned good). I have reconsidered: he is a first-rate propaganda writer.

Explain Entebbe. Explain the Achille Lauro. Explain TWA flight 837. Explain why you and your organization give tacit support to that kinda shit. And today you give support to the same kinda shit when you give Hamas (and similar organizations) your encouraging words. If it was simply a matter of bigotry I would let it go. But it seems to be hatred on the part of you and your organization.

Your crew overlooks those examples. Just a bunch of the boys getting together on Saturday night.

It would take little to brain wash you guys and gals. IMO, a light rinse would do.

Now, in short but heart-felt words, fuck you.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 02:50 PM

BB
"I think you need to look at the history of the Warsaw Ghetto. In spite of your fraudulant claims, Israel has not lined up troops and marched across Gaza, killing every living thing"

About 1300 just a couple of weeks ago!

Gaza voted in Hamas, not Israel.


Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 02:51 PM

Rockets. Remember the rockets?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 03:22 PM

Being aimed ( mostly) at Jews, they don't matter.




0.04% vs 100% Barry.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 03:27 PM

When the Palestinians accept the last set of internationally accepted borders (1923), and move out of the West Bank into Jordan ( the Arab Moslim Homeland), there will be peace in the region.

Any violence until then is due entirely to the refusal of the Palestinian Moslims to abide by those borders.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 11:06 PM

Hamas honeymoon ends with torture

The Guardian 26 Aug 2007

With both legs badly bruised from a vicious beating, Shaher Abu Oda can only move around with a painful shuffle. In the town of Beit Hanoun, on Palestine's Gaza strip, however, he is just one of many young men bearing limps, plaster casts, and stitches - the black and blue aftermath of an unprecedented crackdown on dissent by the strip's new rulers, the Islamist group Hamas.

Its officials snatched Mr Abu Oda off the streets two weeks ago as he was trying to find his younger brother Miqbil, himself badly beaten after club-wielding Hamas policemen broke up a wedding party. The revellers' crime had been to sing a few songs associated with the Fatah party, the rival Palestinian faction which Hamas ousted from the Gaza Strip two months ago. "They threw me in a room," said Mr Abu Oda. "From 11.30 to 3.30 in the morning, they came in every 15 minutes and beat me with sticks, fists, kicks, and a black leather crop."

As many as 50 people are thought to have been arrested in Gaza's Beit Hanoun district around the night of the wedding, and similar sweeps have taken place elsewhere in Gaza since then. The detentions and beatings appear to mark the end of a relative honeymoon period for Hamas, which seized control of Gaza after five days of battle in June.

The early days of the group's reign saw aggressive crackdowns on drug dealers, theft, and violent clans, as well as the freeing of BBC journalist Alan Johnston from the clutches of a criminal faction aligned to al-Qaeda. Such moves led to calls for Britain and Europe to open formal dialogue with Hamas, despite its commitment to the destruction of the state of Israel.

Now though, human rights groups and ordinary Gazans say Hamas is committing exactly the same crimes as its Fatah predecessors, whose corruption and brutality were one of the main reasons why support for Hamas grew. "We are receiving reports of political detentions every day," said Mahmoud Abu Rahma, of the Gaza City-based Al Mezan Centre for Human Rights. "Hamas is conducting wide sweeps and interrogations to collect information. The interrogations include harsh treatment, and in many cases, torture and beatings."

At a protest in Gaza City on Friday, Hamas gunmen broke up a demonstration by Fatah loyalists by firing on the crowd and smashing journalists' cameras. Similar treatment is often meted out in the opposite direction in the Fatah-controlled West Bank, where dozens, if not hundreds, of Hamas activists have been jailed - but since Hamas has long portrayed itself to the Palestinians as an upright alternative to decades of corrupt Fatah rule, such behaviour rankles all the more.

"Fatah arrested and tortured people too," said a senior official from the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, an independent political faction. "But during Fatah's rule we could give our opinions, and say anything we wanted about the Fatah leadership. Today people are afraid of saying anything about Hamas."

At least two detainees have died in Hamas custody since July 11. In the most recent case, Waleed Abu Dalfa, 45, was arrested on suspicion of collaborating with Israel. Thirty masked militants from Hamas' armed wing, the Ezzedine al-Qassam Brigades, arrested him and his two brothers in the night. Seven days later his dead body was dumped at a Gaza City hospital. The doctor on duty reported "bruises on the hands and the legs, haematomas in the legs and signs of stranglehold on the neck."

While the Hamas crackdown has focused on its long-standing nemesis Fatah, other factions have not escaped their wrath. On August 13, Hamas broke up a peaceful protest rally that included a number of different Palestinian political groups, beating protesters with sticks and confiscating cameras from journalists. Newspapers have been banned, critical television talk shows have been pulled from the air, and a new Hamas decree prohibits demonstrations and even outdoor weddings without approval.

Even Islamic Jihad, a fellow militant group traditionally close to Hamas, has begun to turn against Gaza's new rulers. Hamas attacked an Islamic Jihad wedding on August 1, killing three people, and wounding at least eight. In an unusual public rebuke, Islamic Jihad issued a statement calling on Hamas to stop political arrests, release political prisoners, and to stop curtailing freedom of speech.

Hamas founder Mahmoud Zahar is untroubled by the rumblings of dissent: "Life is much better in Gaza than before," he said, insisting that the justice system, police, and internal security forces were undergoing total overhauls. "I don't deny there are some violations but this is not a policy. It's personal excesses … sometimes they resort to violence when they shouldn't, but it is not a policy."

He also accused Fatah activists of fomenting discord, but warned: "But we are watching their every move."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 11:25 PM

Hamas spokesman, Tahar Al-Nunu said on 31 October that no journalist can continue working without obtaining a new press card from the information ministry. Hamas took control of the Gaza Strip on 14 June 2007, six months after its legislative election victory. Since then the Islamist party has regularly obstructed the work of some journalists. Media viewed as close to Fatah have suffered attacks. Arrests and closures of media have become the daily lot of journalists not aligned with Hamas.

“Since dissolving the journalists’ union last month, Hamas is now trying to impose official measures which could lead to serious restrictions,â€쳌 Reporters Without Borders said. “A press card is above all a tool which should facilitate media work and the coverage of official events. The Hamas decision however appears to have been prompted by political considerationsâ€쳌.

Since June 2007, the press freedom organisation has recorded at least nine assaults and 21 arrests of journalists by members of Hamas armed wing, the Executive Force.

The Hamas announcement of a ban on journalists working who are not accredited by the information ministry, under the control of the Islamist party, prompted a wave of protest within media and professional organisations on the Gaza Strip. Many of them refused to comply with the order and only Hamas-affiliated media have accepted it.

Hamas police on 6 November searched the home of Hisham Saqalah, of the online newsletter al-Rassed al-I’lami seizing his computer, his archives, mobile phone and scores of CDs. The journalist had been warned that a complaint had been made against him but not the identity of the plaintiff or their motives.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 11:50 PM

Promising Freedom, Hamas Pressures Journalists

New York Times Sept. 4, 2007

GAZA CITY, â€" During the first Fatah protest rally at Friday Prayer here late last month, a number of Palestinian journalists trying to cover the event were beaten by the Hamas police force. Some journalists were arrested and their cameras seized, prompting complaints from the Gaza branch of the Palestinian Journalists Syndicate.
    The next night, at about 10 p.m., Hamas police officers entered Sakher Abu El Oun’s courtyard, preparing to arrest him. Mr. Abu El Oun, a reporter for Agence France-Presse and head of the union here, telephoned a colleague.
    "I called one journalist who sent out an SMS," he said, referring to a text message, "and within minutes, about 70 journalists and some human rights activists came to my house and prevented them from taking me away. My kids were crying. It was a very ugly picture."
    The police told him, he said, "that they had instructions to arrest me, I had refused, and I would be responsible" for any consequences.Hamas seems confused about how to quash Fatah protests and simultaneously deal with the news media. Trying to nurture a reputation for honesty and legal behavior since they conquered Gaza in bloody fighting in June, Hamas’s leaders promise journalists freedom of action while the police intimidate them.
    One result is a kind of self-censorship, local journalists say, that goes beyond what they traditionally practiced under Fatah, which also tried to pressure, manipulate or own the Palestinian press.
    Mr. Abu El Oun, 42, is a good case in point. The immediate crisis for him ended when a Hamas government spokesman, Taher el-Nounou, a former journalist, arrived at his house with a message from the former Hamas prime minister, Ismail Haniya, telling the police to leave.
    Later, speaking for the union, Mr. Abu El Oun talked about the broader problems journalists were facing. "We are asking for the freedom to cover the protests," he said. "They can prevent the demonstrations, but not the right of journalists to cover them. We are under self-censorship because we don’t know what is allowed, what isn’t. There is no clear policy. All the journalists are worried, scared."
    He has since been asked by his employer not to speak to journalists.One Hamas leader, Mahmoud Zahar, called Mr. Abu El Oun "one bad guy" in an interview and accused him of "presenting himself as a Fatah leader," in part because of his role in what was a Fatah-dominated union. But in 2001, Mr. Abu El Oun was badly beaten with an iron bar by members of the Fatah-dominated Preventive Security Force and nearly died. He underwent significant reconstructive surgery but returned to work.
    Palestinian journalists describe a confusing situation, in which Hamas, as a fundamentally religious organization new to politics and used to obedience, is putting undue pressure on the news media, especially with regard to the use of television images and photographs. Hamas is in a fierce political struggle with Fatah, and both factions are using the media at their command â€" the official Palestinian television and radio by Fatah, which also has its own outlets and newspapers, and Hamas’s newspapers, radio and sophisticated television channel, Al Aksa, which is modeled on Al Minar, which is run by Hezbollah.
    Each accuses the other of being infidels and in the service of outsiders â€" Fatah says Hamas serves Iran; Hamas says Fatah serves Israel and America. In addition to children’s shows urging war against Israel and the Israeli occupation, praising martyrdom and attacking Jews, Hamas television runs a news scroll underneath devoted entirely to Hamas-flavored news. The official Palestinian Authority television, hard to see now in Gaza, is only a little more balanced.
    Fatah in the West Bank has closed Hamas-affiliated media outlets and charities and prevented Hamas-supported newspapers from circulating or Hamas television from broadcasting. Equipment has been confiscated or destroyed, and six Hamas journalists have been arrested, Mr. Nounou said, and 12 more beaten. But here in Gaza, Hamas has done the same to Fatah and the Palestinian Authority-controlled media. At least eight outlets were closed, including three newspapers, and many Fatah journalists have fled.
    Ahmad Odeh, of Maan news agency, said: "This government came into power by a coup, and in Ramallah, there is an emergency government that rules by decree. There’s no democracy on either side. What do you expect?"
    Local reporters, including those working for international news agencies, have been pressured, as they used to be pressured under Fatah, but now with a degree more menace. Yet Hamas leaders say they are committed to freedom of speech, while demanding that journalists report "objectively."
    After the first Fatah rally, Mr. Nounou, the government spokesman, said in an interview that the police were ordered to leave journalists alone unless they engaged in the protest themselves. A few days later, Hamas said it would no longer work with the Palestinian journalists union that Mr. Abu El Oun leads because it was supposedly pro-Fatah, dissolved it and threatened to prosecute its leaders.
    Similarly, Hamas at first said the prayer protests were fine if peaceful, but then decided to ban them, causing further clashes. As some protesters were beaten, some more journalists were beaten and arrested, too, before being released. One policeman told reporters, according to The Associated Press, "If a single shot is on TV, you know what will happen," then drew a finger across his throat.
    Mr. Zahar said, "There have been mistakes, but they are decreasing." Mr. Nounou has been an important mediator between police and journalists and has usually secured their release. "We follow every complaint," he said. "We respect freedom of expression and even allow Fatah here to hold press conferences and demonstrations, which Hamas cannot in the West Bank."
    Under Fatah, "the rules were essentially clear," said another local journalist working for a different news agency. "Don’t attack Yasir Arafat or Muhammad Dahlan or Rashid Abu Shbak," all prominent Fatah figures, "and don’t touch the issue of corruption. That was basically all. Now, of course, it’s Abbas and a few other figures."
    But Hamas, he said, "isn’t used to criticism and doesn’t like it." While Fatah is essentially a broad, secular movement and disorganized, "Hamas is less accepting of advice or criticism, and it’s less experienced and open to the world."
    Since June, he said, Gaza is under a kind of military rule, and everyone is wary.
"People aren’t sure what the boundaries are, and Hamas tries to reassure them, but people feel a little afraid," he said. "Self-censorship is more devastating than censorship laws. And the self-censorship, especially for journalists, is more depressing and complicated than before."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 02:00 AM

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/ips.html

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 08:12 AM

John on Sunset Coast- 18 Feb.09, 10:23

Who appointed you see're of all truth???

I might be an amatuer in yer little narrow minded view but I called the consequences in Iraq some 7 years ago...

And my observations on the Isreali/Palestrianian conflict is not at all out of mainstream thinking of peace advocates...

Just not the thinking that perpetuates the conflict...

You post is representative of that thinking... It is very George Bushish... Very dogmatic and very self centered...

You are a very angry person...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 10:30 AM

Bobert -- having a stream of consciousness moment are we?

I might be an amatuer in yer little narrow minded view but I called the consequences in Iraq some 7 years ago...   OFF POINT

And my observations on the Isreali/Palestrianian conflict is not at all out of mainstream thinking of peace advocates... NOT SOMETHING TO BE BRAGGED ABOUT IN THIS INSTANCE

Just not the thinking that perpetuates the conflict... JUST THE THINKING THAT ELIMINATES ISRAEL AS A NATION

You are a very angry person...PERHAPS, WHEN I READ SOME OF THE BULLSHIT HERE

Have a nice day.

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 11:29 AM

I must be havin' a better one than you, John, cause my blood pressure is a steady 110/70 and SCREAMING doesn't really appeal to me as a way to communicate...

Way too much SCREAMING going on in the Middle East and in the words of Doctor Phil, "How;s that workin' for ya'???"

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 01:45 PM

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=56368&contrassID=2&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 02:03 PM

I wasn't screaming...I was just differentiating my post from yours.

I do know that all caps is a screaming convention...but I don't do hotmail with italics or color or that sort of thing, but you interpret anyway you want to.

Keep on quoting charlatans...that really impresses me!!!! But I've told you that already.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 11:17 PM

Why in the world would you think that Carole's quoting charlatans John??? When so many of near 1300 dead were an awfully high percentage of children. Some one killed the children & the next thing I can hear you say it was done at the hands of the people of Gaza & that they themselves were responsible for the deaths of their own children.
When children, women & innocents of any other community get killed in these high numbers by a military force there's usually blood to be paid but here in the shadow of Israel it's somehow the victum whose at fault. Yes the people of Palestine are the victums, they may be wearing suductive clothing which has the blind thinking it's ok if they get raped & murdered, that they had asked for it & had it coming but there is not excuse for murder, even if they were asking for it, as the Israeli's would have the world believe, when it is Israel that's the wolve hidden in the skin of sheep. Thery are no better than dogs.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 11:49 PM

I think the charlatan being referred to in this case is probably Dr. Phil.

(Thanks, though :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 03:32 AM

You're right Carole, thanks for redirecting me. I thought it was John quoting his usual Rush job

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 05:40 PM

"Al-Qaeda founder launches fierce attack on Osama bin Laden
One of al-Qaeda's founding leaders, Dr Fadl, has begun an ideological revolt against Osama bin Laden, blaming him for "every drop" of blood spilt in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Sayyid Imam al-Sharif: The terrorist attacks on September 11 were both immoral and counterproductive, he writes
Sayyid Imam al-Sharif, who goes by the nom de guerre Dr Fadl, helped bin Laden create al-Qaeda and then led an Islamist insurgency in Egypt in the 1990s.

But in a book written from inside an Egyptian prison, he has launched a frontal attack on al-Qaeda's ideology and the personal failings of bin Laden and particularly his Egyptian deputy, Ayman al-Zawahiri.

Twenty years ago, Dr Fadl became al-Qaeda's intellectual figurehead with a crucial book setting out the rationale for global jihad against the West.

Today, however, he believes the murder of innocent people is both contrary to Islam and a strategic error. "Every drop of blood that was shed or is being shed in Afghanistan and Iraq is the responsibility of bin Laden and Zawahiri and their followers," writes Dr Fadl."

Maybe the assholes in Hamas and Hezbollah could learn from this.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 05:40 PM

PS That ain't the whole article. I coulddn't make a link to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 05:52 PM

What the hey...

..1200...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 06:46 PM

I don't often find myself wanting to amplify the words of Fareed Zakaria, but in this case, I'll make an exception...

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/postglobal/fareed_zakaria/2009/02/israels_existential_dilemma.html

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 06:14 PM

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/feb/23/military-aid-israel-amnesty

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 06:23 PM

'The human rights group said that those arming both sides in the conflict "will have been well aware of a pattern of repeated misuse of weapons by both parties and must therefore take responsibility for the violations perpetrated".'

Even if the US does withdraw weapons aid, will Iran?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 06:32 PM

The report said that Hamas is getting its weapons (some of which are Iranian made, and also Russian and Chinese made) on the black market, not from Iran.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 07:08 PM

I read that also. Thing is, Israel ends up with no way to defend itself against people who want to exterminate the Jews in that country. So I don't think Israel will go for it--nor will the US admin.

I DO know I wish the killing on both sides would stop.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 10:20 PM

Israel currently has more than enough weapons with which to defend itself. It doesn't need any more from the US taxpayers. Israel is also perfectly capable of producing its own weapons without handouts from the US taxpayers.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 12:18 AM

OK. Have a nice day.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 12:21 AM

"I called the consequences in Iraq some 7 years ago."

Bobert 20 Jul 07

    Anyone else notice that every day the Bushites push back the date that ***The Surge*** will work???

    Seems like it's been moved back twice this week from Septmeber to next summer??? At that rate, give the Bushites another week an' it will be sometime in the next century...

    Face it folks... The surge ain't gonna work... This is a civil war we are now in the middle of... We ain't gonna win this one... Might of fact, this is alike rootin' for the home team late in the 4th quarter and down by 4 touchdowns... Yeah, I think we can all relate... Yeah, we hope that we just get one more touchdown but understand that the game is lost...

    Iraq is lost...

    The folks sayin', "Oh geeze, we just can't afford to loose" won't change this very simple truth...

    Iraq is lost...

    Better just dig in, bite the bullet and make the most of it...

    So I would think the question at hand isn't about whether or not the war can be won but what to do now...

    That involves a major paradyme switch...

    There are things that a militarially defeated US can do... Lot's of them... BUt they can't do them until they give up this false hope that **the surge*** will bring victory, or stability... That won't happen...

    Bobert

Obammer on the surge: "It's succeeded beyond our wildest dreams."

Andrea Mitchell: "clearly, the surge has worked, and not only in terms of security. There is some level of political reconciliation. The Sunnis rejoined the government"

Peter Mansoor - How The Surge Worked - Washingtonpost.com
The arrival of additional U.S. forces signaled renewed resolve. Sunni tribal leaders, having glimpsed the dismal future in store for their people under a regime controlled by al-Qaeda in Iraq and fearful of abandonment, were ready to throw in their lot with the coalition. The surge did not create the first of the tribal "awakenings," but it was the catalyst for their expansion and eventual success. The tribal revolt took off after the arrival of reinforcements and as U.S. and Iraqi units fought to make the Iraqi people secure.

New York Times: The surge, clearly, has worked.

Bartle Bull: How we’ve won the war in Iraq - Times Online

Michael Yon: "we’ve won the war in Iraq and all that remains is clean-up"

Bobert enjoys living in the past, denying the present and boasting about his non existent facts.

I am still waiting for him to get back to me about that M16 that he swears Rumsfeld gave to Saddam, the bad gas that the US sold him to gas the Kurds with, the booty he got from the US for doing so and the source of these "facts" but he hightailed it out of that thread real quick like, rather than answer. A real drive-by stink bomb toss.

"Heck, the US even provided the bad gas that was used against the Kurds... Even rewarded Saddam ****afterwards**** with all kinds of booty, including a gold plated M-16 rifle..."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: robomatic
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 11:55 AM

A hopeful development, if it is not mere window dressing:

"Hamas, which runs Gaza, said it had nothing to do with the attacks and would act against those responsible."

I heard it on the BBC

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 01:33 PM

I hope Robomatic is right on this, but I'm not so sure....

Last update - 16:02 12/03/2009                           
Hamas condemns Gaza rocket strikes on Israel
By The Associated Press

"Gaza's Hamas rulers issued rare criticism Thursday of Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel from the strip, saying now is the wrong time for such attacks."

The implication of that statement is there is a right time to attack Israel...when Hamas is ready to do so.

I note that today Israel has agreed to exchange 450 Palesinian prisoners for one kidnapped IDF soldier. Another victory for Hamas!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: robomatic
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 02:29 PM

JotSC

Maybe one IDF soldier is the equivalent of 500? Maybe Israel's getting a deal!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 02:34 PM

All depends whether he is alive

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Mar 09 - 08:40 AM

Hamas not budging in Israel, Fatah talks
         
Karin Laub, Associated Press Writer – 2 hrs 1 min ago

Reuters KHAN YOUNIS, Gaza Strip – An opening of Gaza's blockaded borders, access to billions of dollars in foreign aid, a popularity boost — Hamas would have much to gain by working out a prisoner swap with Israel and a power-sharing arrangement with its West Bank rivals.

Instead, Gaza's Islamic militant rulers have been clinging to their demands and displaying a stubbornness that would seem irrational considering the enormous stakes.

But Hamas apparently believes that time is on its side and that its adversaries — Israel, moderate Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas and the West — will eventually fold, analysts say.

"They are not acting like people who are negotiating from a position of weakness," said Robert Blecher, an analyst with the International Crisis Group think tank.

Egypt has been mediating parallel sets of talks involving Hamas — with Israel on exchanging a captured Israeli soldier, Gilad Schalit, for hundreds of Palestinian prisoners, and with Abbas' Fatah movement on a transitional government that would pave the way for new elections.

Hamas wants Israel to release 450 prisoners with lengthy terms for Schalit, and resists demands by Abbas that the unity government commit to the Palestine Liberation Organization program, including its recognition of Israel.

In both cases, Hamas is refusing to make concessions that could lead to a lifting of the Gaza closure, imposed by Israel and Egypt after Hamas' violent takeover there in 2007.

"Hamas is sticking to its demands," spokesman Ayman Taha said after the failure of the prisoner talks Tuesday, even adding a threat that Hamas would try to capture more Israeli soldiers. On Wednesday, Hamas' military wing said it might harden demands in future talks.

Such swagger comes, in part, from surviving the border blockade and Israel's recent military offensive in Gaza, which served to emphasize how hard it would be to bring Hamas down.

Ending Gaza's isolation has become more urgent since the war — reconstruction requires open borders and huge sums in foreign aid, already promised by donor countries. But Hamas seems in no hurry.

In the final stage of negotiations over prisoners this weekend, outgoing Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert offered to free 320 prisoners of the 450 Hamas was demanding.

Compromise on the prisoners might be seen in Gaza as inadequate compensation for the hardship that befell the territory after Hamas-allied militants captured Schalit in a cross-border raid in 2006. Israel closed Gaza's borders, bombed Gaza's only power station and unleashed military strikes that killed hundreds.

Hamas is also under pressure from the families of prisoners not to leave any lifers behind.

"Getting the prisoners out is more important than open borders," 70-year-old Khadije Salameh said Tuesday, flanked in her living room in the town of Khan Younis by the gold-framed posters of her imprisoned sons Hassan and Akram.

Hassan Salameh is among the 11 prisoners Israel says it will never free. Arrested in 1995, he is serving 48 life terms for masterminding several suicide bombings that killed dozens of Israelis.

The release of the 11 names and Olmert's pledge not to lift the blockade without Schalit will tie the hands of his designated successor, hard-line Likud leader Benjamin Netanyahu. Hamas could have a tough time getting a better deal from Netanyahu.

The deadlock complicates the international community's plans for Gaza reconstruction.

"We are not able to bring anything in for rebuilding Gaza until the case of the Israeli soldier Schalit is resolved, and that's what the Israelis are telling us," Karen Abu Zayd, who runs the major U.N. aid agency in Gaza, said Tuesday.

Donor countries are ready to give billions of dollars to fix the war damage, including repairing or rebuilding 15,000 homes, but can't do so without open borders and won't give the money to Hamas.

The purpose of the Palestinian unity talks is to form an interim government made up of both rival factions until new elections are held by January 2010.

Such an arrangement would let funds start flowing, but would force Hamas to soften its opposition to Israel. And Hamas can't afford to compromise on its principles, especially with the possibility of elections in less than a year, said Hani Basoos, a Gaza analyst now based in Europe.

Hamas is committed to Israel's destruction, in contrast to Fatah, which seeks a Palestinian state alongside Israel. An implicit recognition of Israel would also undercut Hamas' main argument in any election campaign that Fatah's 16 years of peace talks with Israel have been a waste of time.

Hamas has shown that its stubbornness is not a negotiating tactic, Basoos said.

"If they wanted to compromise, they would have done it last year or the year before," he said. "It is a waiting game."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 18 Mar 09 - 01:03 PM

"They are not acting like people who are negotiating from a position of weakness,"

That's statement that says exactlly how Israel would want the situation to be!

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Mar 09 - 06:53 AM

Terrorists raising funds for the assassination of leaders

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Mar 09 - 11:20 AM

Palestinian reconciliation talks break up, no deal
         

Salah Nasrawi, Associated Press Writer – 46 mins ago

AFP CAIRO – Egyptian-mediated talks between the rival Palestinian groups Hamas and Fatah broke up Thursday, without a deal on a national unity government, participants said.

The break-up of the talks came just two days after negotiations in Cairo between Hamas and Israel over a prisoner swap ran aground.

The deadlock in both negotiating tracks raises questions about plans by the international community to rebuild parts of Gaza, devastated in Israel's recent military offensive against Hamas. Gaza's borders have been virtually sealed since Hamas seized the territory by force in June 2007, and international aid groups have said reconstruction of the war damage is impossible without open borders.

However, reconstruction plans hinged on the success of parallel negotiations — on a Palestinian unity deal and on the release of Israeli soldier Gilad Schalit, held in Gaza, for hundreds of Palestinian prisoners.

Without progress on either front, Gaza's borders will likely remain closed.

In the unity talks, Hamas and its moderate Fatah rivals were trying to agree on the terms of a joint coalition for an interim unity government that would set the stage for elections by January.

The key sticking point was the program of the new government. Another unresolved issue is to what extent Hamas would abide by past accords with Israel.

Fatah negotiators said the new government must commit to the program of the PLO, which recognized Israel in 1993. Hamas refuses to recognize Israel, and only wants the new government to "respect" the PLO commitments. Earlier this week, Egyptian envoys sounded out U.S. and European diplomats about whether they would be willing to accept something less than a commitment to the PLO agreements.

After the break-up Thursday, Hamas official Fawzi Barhoum reiterated that his group will not agree to "commit" to the accords or recognize Israel.

Samir Ghosheh, a negotiator for a tiny PLO faction, said Egyptian mediators told the Palestinian representatives on Thursday to pack their bags. The Egyptian hosts did not set a date for a new round, he said. Negotiations had begun last week.

"Personally, I don't think there will be a resumption of talks unless there are clear indications that the problems will be solved," said Ghosheh.

However, Fatah's Azzam al-Ahmed said the talks will continue after an Arab summit at the end of March.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 19 Mar 09 - 12:56 PM

An interesting link about Israeli soldiers giving some pretty worrying testimony about their own officers.


Click here


Note, this is testimony coming from Israeli jews, being reported on the BBC.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Mar 09 - 04:51 PM

If one tenth of that is true then the Israeli Armed Forces and Government have to prosecute the guilty to the full extent of the law in as clear and transparent a manner as possible. If permissable under Israeli Military Codes of Justice the worst offenders should be executed by firing squad, like Admiral Byng - in order to encourage the others never to act in such a manner ever again.

They must also address the vital importance of teaching their conscript soldiers what are, and what are not, lawful commands. They must drill that same instruction into the very souls of their officer cadets in order that such things never occur again. It is quite simple:

"Thou shalt not do murder"

As for the roles in this played by the Rabbi's as reported, clear instructions must be given to Commanding Officers and passed to the troops of the Israeli Defence Force under their command if it ever occurs again - Shoot the Rabbi on the spot.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 08:00 AM

Report from Financial Times, via the Irish Times.
Prosecuting ranking soldiers for their behaviour in war without holding the officers or the Government to account is equivilent to blaming the camp guards for the Holocaust - whatever happened to 'The Buck Stops Here'?
Jim Carroll

Israeli soldiers admit Gaza abuses
Criminal inquiry ordered in wake of soldiers' testimony
TOBIAS BUCK in Jerusalem
ISRAELI SOLDIERS have provided the most damning indictment yet of the army's conduct during the recent Gaza war, claiming they committed serious abuses against civilians, including the shooting of unarmed women and children.
One incident, in which a Gaza woman was killed by Israeli sharpshooters, was described as "coldblooded murder" by a soldier who served in the conflict. In response to a string of testimonies compiled by an army training school, published in the media yesterday, Israel's military advocate general has ordered a criminal investigation.
The revelations are likely to further undermine Israel's image, already dented by the war in January. Palestinian and international human rights groups, have long claimed that Israeli forces operating in the Gaza Strip committed grave violations against the civilian population. More than 1, 400 Palestinians were killed during Israel's three-week assault on the Hamas-controlled strip.
Claims of war crimes, as well as the mounting international effort to prosecute Israeli officials and soldiers for alleged violations, have met angry denials from the government and army.
Speaking on the night Israel ended its offensive, prime minister Ehud Olmert applauded the army for its "great sensitivity in exercising its force", adding that few countries would have behaved with such restraint.
That claim has been undermined by the testimony of Israel's soldiers. In a 35-page eyewitness report compiled by the head of a military preparation programme, soldiers reported cases in which troops shot civilians and vandalised homes. Several said there was a general disregard for the safety of civilians.
"I felt there was a lot of thirst for blood, " one soldier is quoted as saying. "This is the beauty of Gaza. You see a person walking down a street or path; he does not have to be with a weapon. You just have to see him with something, and you shoot him. " Another soldier said: "The atmosphere in general - how should I say this? - the life of the Palestinians is much less important than the life of our soldiers. " One officer described the behaviour of soldiers occupying a Palestinian house, highlighting abuses including "writing sentences on the walls like 'Death to the Arabs', taking family pictures and spitting on them, burning everything that reminds us of the family.
"Talking about the IDF being a 'moral army' - that's not the case in the field. " - [Financial Times)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 08:23 AM

From CNN:

Israeli military to probe Gaza campaign allegations

Story Highlights
Claims made by Israeli graduates of a pre-military course at an Israeli college

First reported in the Israeli newspaper Haaretz on Thursday

Case refers to Israel's recent military campaign in Gaza

One soldier claims an elderly woman was shot on orders of a commander

   
JERUSALEM (CNN) -- The Israeli military plans to investigate claims by Israeli soldiers that Palestinian civilians were killed and Palestinian property intentionally destroyed during Israel's recent 22-day offensive in the Gaza Strip.

Many Palestinian civilians were killed after being caught up in the 22-day conflict in Gaza.

The claims were made by Israeli soldiers who were graduates of a pre-military course at an Israeli college. They were first reported in the Israeli newspaper Haaretz on Thursday.

At a gathering at the college following the Gaza operation, the newspaper reported, soldiers gave testimony that ran counter to persistent claims by the military that "Israeli troops observed a high level of moral behavior during the operation."

The testimony was taken down by the head of the college's pre-military program, Danny Zamir. He told Haaretz that he did not know what the soldiers were going to say and that what they heard "shocked us."

According to Haaretz, Zamir passed on the testimony to the Israel Defense Forces chief of staff, saying he "feared a serious moral failure in the IDF."

Contacted by CNN, Zamir said he would not comment to the foreign press on the matter and that the full testimony would be appearing in Haaretz newspaper. Portions of the testimony appeared in the Thursday edition of Haaretz and more is expected in coming days.

In one account, a squad leader from a brigade serving in Gaza described an incident in which he said an elderly Palestinian woman was shot and killed at the orders of a company commander.

According to the testimony, the squad leader protested the rules of engagement, which he said allowed soldiers to fire on Palestinian homes without giving residents a warning. After the rules were changed, his soldiers complained that "we should kill everyone there [in the center of Gaza]. Everyone there is a terrorist."

According to Haaretz, the squad leader went on to testify that, "You do not get the impression from the officers that there is any logic to it, but they won't say anything. To write 'death to the Arabs' on the walls, to take family pictures and spit on them, just because you can. I think this is the main thing: To understand how much the IDF has fallen in the realm of ethics, really. It's what I'll remember the most."

In a statement released Thursday, the Israeli military spokesman's office said Gen. Avichai Mendelblit, the Israeli military's advocate general, had ordered an immediate investigation be opened that will "examine" what was said by the soldiers.

Israeli Defense minister Ehud Barak told Army Radio Thursday that "Israel has the most moral army in the world" and that the testimonies will be checked carefully.

In addition, a coalition of nine Israeli human rights groups called on Israeli Attorney General Menachem Mazuz to reconsider his refusal to establish an independent investigative body to examine the military's actions during the Gaza campaign, known as "Operation Cast Lead."

The groups -- The Association for Civil Rights in Israel, Bimkom, B'tselem, Gisha, Hamoked, The Public Committee Against Torture, Yesh Din, Physicians for Human Rights, Rabbis for Human Rights, Adalah, and Itach - Women Lawyers for Social Justice -- said accounts by Palestinians raise the possibility that acts by the military were worse than previously suspected.


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Every case should be looked at, and if illegal acts were commited the responsible parties should be held accountable.







Now, waiting on the investigation of Hamas war crimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 08:43 AM

Rights group names 1,417 Gaza war dead

AP - Thursday, March 19, 2009 3:16:08 PM
By KARIN LAUB

The final tally of Palestinians killed in Israel's recent war on Gaza's Hamas rulers is 1,417, including 926 civilians, according to a Palestinian human rights groups that published the names, ages and other information about the dead on its Web site Thursday.

Israel disputed the findings by the Palestinian Center for Human Rights (PCHR), saying it believes the majority of the dead were combatants or legitimate targets, but offered no evidence. An Israeli think tank said its analysis of the PCHR's data suggests the number of civilians is lower than the rights group claims.

Israel waged a three-week war in Gaza, ending with a unilateral cease-fire Jan. 18, in an attempt to weaken the Islamic militant Hamas and halt persistent rocket fire from Gaza on Israeli border towns.

After a week of air strikes, Israeli tanks and ground forces entered the territory, flattening several neighborhoods and industrial areas near the border. Some 15,000 houses and hundreds of businesses were destroyed or damaged, according to independent assessments.

Human rights groups have accused Israel of using excessive force, noting that heavy civilian casualties were inevitable in densely populated Gaza. Israel said Hamas militants intentionally operated from residential areas in order to use civilians as human shields.

The PCHR said in a statement that the large number of civilians among the dead is proof that Israeli troops "used excessive and random force through the entire period of aggression, violating the principle of distinction (between combatants and civilians)."

Israeli government spokesman Mark Regev rejected the allegation. "Israel, during the military campaign, made every possible effort to target enemy combatants only," he said.

The PCHR said its list, including determining the number of civilians, is based on thorough research. It said among the dead were 926 civilians, including 313 minors under the age of 18 and 116 women. The group counted 236 combatants and 255 members of the Hamas security forces.

Of the security forces, 240 were killed on Dec. 27, the first day of the war, when Israeli aircraft unleashed massive strikes on Hamas security compounds, the report said.

During the war, the group's field workers were deployed at seven Gaza hospitals, recording names and other information about the dead as the bodies were brought in, said the group's deputy director, Jabr Wishah. After the war, researchers checked all those initially listed as civilians, interviewing their family members and neighbors and collecting ID numbers, medical records and death certificates, he said.

Researcher Mohammed Ghannam said he would sometimes change a classification after a follow-up visit.

For example, the Dughmush family in Gaza City insisted Hamdan Dughmush, 19, was watching clashes between Hamas gunmen and Israeli soldiers when he was killed near his home.

However, neighbors told Ghannam that Dughmush was planting a roadside bomb, and the researcher said he moved the young man from the "civilian" to the "combatant" column.

In another case, a 16-year-old initially listed as a civilian because of his age was later labeled a combatant because of circumstantial evidence, Ghannam said.

In a reverse example, one member of the Hamas military wing was listed as a civilian because he was killed at home, along with 21 other members of the family, when an Israeli airstrike flattened the building on Jan. 6, the researcher said.

Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak said after the war that more than 700 Hamas members were among the dead and Israel had their names. However, Israel has not released its own list of Palestinians killed, and hasn't said when it would do so. It remains unclear how the military, without access to Gaza, would compile a thorough list.

Still, Regev said that "the overwhelming majority of casualties were Hamas operatives and others who were, under international law, legitimate targets."

Also Thursday, the International Policy Institute for Counter-Terrorism, an Israeli think tank, presented its own analysis of the PCHR data, based on preliminary lists, not the final one published Thursday.

Researchers Yael Shahar and Don Radlauer said they did not dispute the final tally, since they have no access to Gaza, but they believe the number of dead combatants is higher.

They said they found 314 confirmed combatants -- 78 more than PCHR listed. Their figure is based on checking the PCHR's list against those claimed as dead fighters on Web sites of militant groups.

The researchers also classified 518 of the dead as unknown, arguing that not enough information is available to put them in either category. They noted that about 80 percent in the group of unknowns were men, including many in their 20s.

This gender and age distribution refutes allegations that Israeli forces targeted Palestinians randomly, the researchers said. "We are being accused of not aiming, of indiscriminate attacks, and the demographics clearly contradict that," said Radlauer.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 03:26 PM

"the testimonies will be checked carefully"

I hope that isn't a coded way of indicating that the whistleblowers are going to be leaned on.

Pretty clearly the Israeli Government and the IDF should be the last people to be in charge of any investigations into these allegations.

But pretty evidently they are going to be in charge - as always happens in this kind of situation, no matter which country is involved. Which means that even if the allegations were in fact exaggerated or false no one will believe any finding to that effect.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 05:00 PM

"Dead Palestinian babies and bombed mosques - IDF fashion 2009"

A nightmarish story - for example "A sharpshooter's T-shirt from the Givati Brigade's Shaked battalion shows a pregnant Palestinian woman with a bull's-eye superimposed on her belly, with the slogan, in English, '1 shot, 2 kills.'

The only good thing about it is that the story was published by the Israeli paper Haaretz. "For the sake of even just ten good people, I will not destroy the city..."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 09 - 03:37 AM

Reported war crimes and abuses by Israelis have been investigated in the past - by Israel - they were overwhelmingly judged to be unfounded.
Now there's a surprise!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 21 Mar 09 - 05:58 AM

jim,

And the reported war crimes by Hamas have been investigated... when???

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 09 - 08:56 AM

Meaning one autricity justifies another Bruce?
There is a call out to investigate ALL war crimes and abuses in Palestine by an independant body - can't fault that - can you?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Diggory Venn
Date: 21 Mar 09 - 11:49 AM

'There is a call out to investigate ALL war crimes and abuses in Palestine by an independant body'

That can only be good. Independent bodies investigated such claims of 'war crimes' and autrocities (sic) before; they were judged by these to be unfounded (see Jenin, and others).

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Mar 09 - 05:51 PM

"they were judged by these to be unfounded (see Jenin, and others).

That is somewhat of a distortion of the findings of the various independent inquiries held into what happened at Jenin - See here - with links to various other inquiries, including the United Nations report, which had some difficulties in getting access to information.

The UN Secretary General in the introduction to the report: "The report was written without a visit to Jenin or the other Palestinian cities in question and it therefore relies completely on available resources and information...

...The Under-Secretary-General for Political Affairs wrote to the Permanent Representative of Israel and the Permanent Observer of Palestine to the United Nations requesting them to submit information but only the latter did so."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 12:49 AM

"Meaning one autricity justifies another Bruce?"

NO.

But it seems that Israel at least investigates, while Hamas rewards.


"There is a call out to investigate ALL war crimes and abuses in Palestine by an independant body - can't fault that - can you?"

No, that would be a good thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 01:43 AM

Israel seems to only investigate after they've been caught with their dants down & are embrassed by exposure. They should allow the UN investagator to go in & do their own independant investagation & I got just the man for the job, Blix!

Or else we invade

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Gervase
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 04:21 AM

From Haaretz. Boys will be boys, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 06:47 AM

"No, that would be a good thing."
Then join us in condemning ALL abuses, outrages and massacres instead of hiding behind "He hit me as well sir!!!"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Emma B
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 07:58 AM

A reminder that today is World Water Day

On the occasion of 2009 World Day for Water the ICRC call on governments to ensure safe water and decent sanitation for civilians in conflict zones. In many conflicts, disease kills more civilians than bullets

"The Centre on Housing Rights and Evictions has released a report entitled Hostage to Politics: The impact of sanctions and the blockade on the human right to water and sanitation in Gaza. The report is available at www.cohre.org.

The report shows that sanctions imposed on the Gaza administration by both Israel and western states and Israel's closure of Gaza's border crossings has left more than 250,000 people without adequate water supply and the restrictions on fuel may leave 1.5 million people without water and sewage services.

The report shows that financial sanctions imposed on the Gaza administration have caused the near collapse of basic service provision in the water and waste-water sectors.

The blockade has prevented the entry of essential materials required to operate and maintain water and sewage services as well as the entry of chemicals and filters necessary for water purification, putting the people of Gaza's health at risk.

The sanctions imposed on the Gaza administration by both Israel and western states and Israel's closure of Gaza's border crossings have caused a humanitarian crisis which includes the widespread denial of economic, social and cultural rights."

EMWIS* report 2008

*EMWIS is an initiative of the Euro-Mediterranean Partnership. It provides a strategic tool for exchanging information and knowledge in the water sector between and within the Euro Mediterranean partnership countries
All the countries involved in the Euro-Mediterranean Partnership are concerned:
The 27 EU member states
The 10 Mediterranean Partner Countries (Algeria, Egypt, Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, Morocco, Palestine, Syria, Tunisia and Turkey

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 09:25 AM

Comment by Israeli sniper re that T-Shirt:-


""I mean it's not like someone is gonna go and shoot a pregnant woman.""


Yeah, RIGHT!!

Gives a whole new slant on the high moral tone of the IDF, doesn't it, and not out of some Hamas propaganda publication, but straight from the horse's arse.


And incidentally BB, while we're watching the Israelis wriggle, with regard to your earlier comment about Hamas war crimes, tell me how many Israeli civilians were slaughtered during that campaign?


Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 02:31 PM

"Israel investigates" the same way the British government investigated after Bloody Sunday... Or the Americans when they shot down an Iranian airliner and killed hundreds.

I'm sure Hamas are quite as capable of doing a similar "investigation" into the stuff their lads have been doing, and producing a similar whitewash.

You can't sit in the judge's seat when you are standing in the dock.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 08:38 AM

"You can't sit in the judge's seat when you are standing in the dock."

A fairly convincing confirmation of this statement from the Irish Times letter column this morning
Jim Carroll

Israeli killings of civilians
Madam, - Nadav Cohen of the Israeli Embassy (March 14th) is being disingenuous or economical with the truth when he writes that the bombing of a UN compound in Qana in 1996 was a "tragic accidental killing" and that Hizbullah was using the civilians as human shields.
On the day of the bombing, April 18th, there were several hundred civilians - mostly women, children and old people from surrounding towns and villages -taking refuge in the compound, which was a long-established headquarters for the UN's observer force Unifil.
The bombing of the compound by Israeli artillery resulted in the deaths of 106 civilians and serious injuries to scores more, as well as four Fijian peacekeepers. Israel immediately claimed the attack was "accidental" and "an unfortunate mistake", blaming Hizbullah for using the compound as a shield, just as Mr Cohen claims.
The UN secretary general at the
time, Boutros Boutros Ghali, immediately commissioned a report carried out by Maj Gen Von Kappen. The report documented clearly, despite repeated Israeli denials, the presence of one remotely piloted vehicle (a drone) and two Israeli helicopters in the immediate area before, during and after the bombing. The report concluded: "It is unlikely that the shelling of the United Nations compound was the result of gross technical and/or procedural errors. "
Human Rights Watch concluded, in its investigation: "The decision of those who planned the attack to choose a mix of high-explosive artillery shells that included deadly anti-personnel shells designed to maximize injuries on the ground violated a key principle of international humanitarian law". And Amnesty International reported: "The IDF intentionally targeted the UN compound".
-Yours, etc,
TOMAS McBRIDE, Letterkenny, Co Donegal.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 03:57 PM


Gaza war crimes investigation - Civilians, medics and investigators talk to the Guardian about allegations of war crimes during Israel's 23-day campaign in Gaza

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 20 Apr 09 - 01:32 PM

Report: Hamas killed, maimed dozens of opponents
         

Karin Laub, Associated Press Writer – Mon Apr 20, 9:58 am ET

RAMALLAH, West Bank – Hamas directed gunmen to eliminate political opponents and suspected collaborators under the cover of Israel's military offensive in Gaza, killing 32 people and wounding dozens in such attacks since December, an international human rights group said Monday.

The New York-based Human Rights Watch urged Gaza's Hamas rulers to halt what it described as a pattern of arbitrary arrests, torture and summary executions by the Islamic militant group.

Human Rights Watch portrayed the attacks as the worst outbreak of internal violence since Hamas violently seized control of Gaza in June 2007 and expelled rivals in the more moderate Fatah movement of Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, who now controls only the West Bank.

Such practices are aimed, in part, at quashing dissent in Gaza and make a mockery of Hamas' claim it upholds the law, the group said.

During the war, "Hamas authorities ... took extraordinary steps to control, intimidate, punish and at times eliminate their internal political rivals as well as persons suspected of collaborating with Israel," the report said.

Eighteen Palestinians were killed by Hamas-linked gunmen during the three-week war, which ended Jan. 18, and 14 others were killed afterward, the report said. In addition, 49 Gazans were shot in the legs by masked gunmen between Dec. 28 and Jan. 31, and 73 had their arms or legs broken, the report said, citing a rights group linked to Abbas.

Hamas spokesman Fawzi Barhoum dismissed the Human Rights Watch report as unbalanced. He said Hamas was willing to investigate any complaints, and denied the group is going after political opponents.

He said suspected collaborators with Israel who fled Gaza's central prison after it was destroyed in Israeli bombing raids in December were killed by relatives of people they had harmed, not by security forces.

Other international and Palestinian human rights organizations have provided similar accounts of shootings and beatings. Fatah has also said 14 of its members in Gaza were killed by Hamas during the Israeli offensive and that more than 160 were shot in the arms or legs or beaten.

Human Rights Watch said repressive measures are also on the rise in the Abbas-controlled West Bank.

Abbas' security forces have been cracking down on Hamas in the West Bank since the militants seized Gaza. Hamas detainees in West Bank prisons have complained of mistreatment, including beatings and being tied up in painful positions. In January and February, one detainee died in custody, and 31 complained of mistreatment, Human Rights Watch said.

The report about the Gaza abuses is based on interviews with witnesses and victims, as well as reports by Palestinian human rights groups, Human Rights Watch said.

It reviewed killings and shootings since Dec. 27, when Israel launched its Gaza offensive, meant to weaken Hamas and halt rocket attacks from Gaza on Israel.

Many of the assailants were members of Hamas' security forces, while others were masked men with suspected ties to Hamas or other militant groups, said Fred Abrahams, a researcher for Human Rights Watch.

"Hamas is the undisputed political and security leader of Gaza, so even if there were gunmen from other groups (involved in attacks), they are operating with the approval of Hamas," he said.

Hamas has begun investigations into four deaths, dismissing and detaining members of the security forces involved in two killings, said Bill Van Esveld, another Human Rights Watch researcher.

"What we have not seen is accountability for (the killing of) collaborators and Fatah guys getting shot in the legs," he said.

In a recent case under investigation, gunmen wearing headbands of Hamas' military wing, Izzedine al-Qassam, reportedly opened fire Thursday on three cousins loyal to Abbas' Fatah movement in the Gaza town of Jebaliya.

The three men were each hit by several bullets in the legs and remain hospitalized, the Gaza-based Palestinian Center for Human Rights said.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 20 Apr 09 - 02:53 PM

The "cut & paste" was to long to bother with

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Apr 09 - 02:56 PM

Not Just A Slogan On A T-shirt


Some selections...

"[T]wo-thirds of the 621 children killed at checkpoints, in the street, on the way to school, in their homes, died from small arms fire, directed in over half of cases to the head, neck and chest - the sniper's wound".

- Dr Derek Summerfield, reporting on the results of a four-year field study in the occupied Palestinian Territories for the British Medical Journal. (cite)

Photo: T-shirt printed for members of an IDF elite unit who had completed sniper training, reads "The smaller they are - The harder it is!".
Source: Dead Palestinian babies and bombed mosques - IDF fashion 2009 (Ha'aretz); via Mondoweiss.

"The Smaller They Are, The Harder It Is!" [Quote]


Sixteen-year-old Asma Mughayer (back row, left, in this family photo from the Sydney Morning Herald) and her thirteen-year-old brother, Ahmed (front row, left) were shot dead while hanging out laundry on the roof of their home in Rafah, on the morning that the IDF launched a major attack ("Operation Rainbow") on the Tel al-Sultan refugee camp where they lived, on 18 May 2004.

The IDF said of their deaths: "A preliminary investigation indicates they were killed by a bomb intended to be used against soldiers. It was set outside a building by Palestinians to hit an Israeli vehicle". But the Mughayer family said that the children had not been killed by a bomb, but shot by an Israeli sniper, operating out of a neighboring building.

An Australian journalist visited the Mughayer house, and found no signs of an explosion there, though he did find bullet holes on the roof, made by bullets which seemed to have been fired from the neighboring building. He visited the neighboring building, and found that its occupants had been held prisoner by an Israeli sniper team that had operated out of their house on the morning that Asma and Ahmed were killed, and left behind MRE wrappers and ammunition boxes (labelled in Hebrew) .

Mughayer2 British journalists who examined the children's bodies at the morgue (AP Photo - Kevin Frayer) found no signs of injuries except for a single bullet hole through the head.

After the British and Australian journalists published their findings, the IDF announced it would hold an internal investigation into the death of the Mughayer siblings. But six months later, while world attention was distracted by a new, large-scale invasion of the Gaza Strip refugee camps, the IDF quietly dropped its investigation.

The following year, some of the soldiers who took part in Operation Rainbow gave their testimonies to the Breaking the Silence exhibition. They testified that they had killed innocent Palestinian civilians, under orders from their superiors to kill any Palestinian they encountered, armed or not. They were concerned, in retrospect, that they were guilty of carrying out illegal orders, and one of them knew what had happened in the specific case of Asma and Ahmed Mughayer, who the IDF assured us were blown up by a Palestinian bomb:

According to Rafi, an officer in the Shaldag, an elite unit connected to the air force, the whole mission was about revenge. "The commanders said kill as many people as possible," he said.

He and his men were ordered to shoot anyone who appeared to be touching the ground, as if they might be placing a roadside bomb, or anyone seen on a roof or a balcony, as if they might be observing Israeli forces for military reasons, regardless of whether they were armed.

Asma Moghayyer, 16, and her brother Ahmed, 13, were shot as they went to collect clothes from a rooftop washing line. The Israeli army insisted the children had been blown up by a roadside bomb. However, journalists visiting the morgue saw only single bullet wounds to the head.

The truth, said Rafi, was that they were shot by an Israeli soldier following clear orders to shoot anyone on a roof regardless of their role in the conflict.

Rafi says that his overriding impression of the operation was "chaos" and the "indiscriminate use of force". "Gaza was considered a playground for sharpshooters."

-- Israeli Soldiers Tell of Indiscriminate Killings by Army and a Culture of Impunity by Conal Urquhart; 6 Sept 2005.


Photo: T-shirt printed for members of an IDF elite unit who had completed sniper training, reads "The smaller they are - The harder it is!".

Source: Dead Palestinian babies and bombed mosques - IDF fashion 2009 (Ha'aretz); via Mondoweiss.

"The Smaller They Are, The Harder It Is!" [3]


Till we confirm the kill
"Another paediatrician and another baker
Got a bullet in the face from a paratroopers unit
All day we search houses and kill children"

- Extract from a song of an Israeli paratroopers' unit that participated in Operation Calm Waters in Nablus, beginning of 2004.

On 16 September 2005, the Israeli newspaper Yediot Ahronot published an interview with the commander of the IDF paratroopers unit that came up with that song. "Commander R" described the extraordinarily permissive open-fire rules under which his unit operated when they were based in Nablus, which on some nights mandated the killing of any Palestinian who happened to be seen on the street:
"My team killed six innocent people, or probably innocent," says "R", a commander in an elite paratroopers' unit. "We would joke about it and give them code names: the baker, the woman, the child, the old man, the drummer. Some of them by mistake, but as I see it, they were simply executed on illegal orders.

"There were many nights on which we received orders that whoever we see on the street between two and four in the morning is sentenced to death [dino mavet]. Those were the exact words..."

"The Baker, whose death provided such a source of amusement for the Israeli soldiers who killed him was a 25-year-old Palestinian named Ala Adin Masud Adawiya. He was walking to his job at the a-Silawi Bakery in Nablus at about 3:00am on 18 December 2003 when he was shot once by an IDF sniper, then eight more times from close range as he lay wounded on the ground by IDF soldiers who arrived on the scene in a Jeep to "confirm the kill". Adawiya was shot because, unbeknown to him, he was walking to work on one of the nights when soldier R's paratroop unit had received orders that whoever we see on the street between two and four in the morning is sentenced to death...

Of the six codenames Commander R's unit assigned to the people they killed, "The Baker" is the easiest to identify, and the circumstances of his death are easiest to reconstruct, largely because the unusual brutality of his death attracted the attention of human rights groups and international journalists. He was killed in an IDF operation called Calm Waters, which ran from 16 December 2003 to 6 January 2004, the purpose of which was ostensibly to capture one wanted man, Naif Sharekh. Nineteen Palestinians were killed in the course of the operation, fifteen of them (including Adawiya) were unarmed civilians, six of them were children. There were indications that two of the dead (again, including Adawiya) had been killed execution style when they were already wounded, and this is what prompted journalists and civil rights groups to investigate the deaths. It is because of their involvement that we know much more about the death of Ala Adawiya than we do about most Palestinians killed by the IDF.

In addition to that of the paratrooper R, who was involved with the sniper team that fired the first shot, eyewitness testimony is available from a second IDF soldier who watched the killing from the house opposite the sniper's nest; also from a 50-year-old Palestinian woman, As'ad Hanun, who lived in the house in front of which Ala Adawiya was killed; and from Adnan Soso, the ambulance driver who was summoned after the first shot was fired. These last three witnesses all saw the "confirmation of kill" procedure carried out.

The incident began when the IDF sniper team used the "worm procedure" to tunnel their way undetected to the house they intended to use as their sniper position. This is the trail they left behind the through neighboring houses when they left the following morning:

Soldier R testifies:
The next man was the baker. We entered the Old City in Nablus, and as usual the open-fire regulations were that every man walking on the street at night is sentenced to death...

That night we took over a house in an excellent position, and about four in the morning the sharpshooters' position identified a man walking with a bag. I saw him on Jami'at al-Kabir Street with the bag in his hand. I went down to report, and the sniper, a friend of mine, was on duty. I reported to the commander who reports to the company commander. The order was "take him down." And so a man fell, 70 metres from his house.

That shot wounded Ala Adawiya in the chest, and woke As'ad Hanun, who called an ambulance. The ambulance arrived within three minutes, at which point Adawiya was still conscious, sitting up, and calling out that he was hurt. A jeep drew up from the nearby IDF command post, and stopped a few metres from where Ala Adawiya was sitting. Over the course of the next several minutes, the soldiers inside fired 8-10 individual shots at Adawiya, then dropped two grenades on the body, to ensure he was dead.

Having checked the contents of Adawiya's bag, which was found to contain nothing more dangerous than some floured-dusted clothing and pita bread, the soldiers permitted Adnan Soso to remove the body to Rafidia Hospital. Upon arrival, it was examined by Dr Samir Abu Zarour, who reported that Ala Adawiya had been shot between eight and 10 times, including twice in the face and once in the testicles, and had a series of fragmentation wounds in his legs.

Ala Adawiya's only crime was that he was a Palestinian whose job required him to arrive at work very early in the morning, and on the way to that job he happened to unknowingly cross the path of an IDF unit under orders to kill anyone they saw. But Soldier R said in conclusion: This thing was never investigated. The regiment commander cheers us up. 'Listen guys, don't be demoralised. This man wasn't just walking around innocently.' Of course he didn't have any substantive information - 'Be assured that anyone walking round the Casbah at that hour is no friend of Zion. He probably had a terrorist agenda, and you performed a good job'...

Further information on the killing of Ala Adawiya is available here.

Photo: T-shirt printed for members of the IDF's Haruv Battalion, reads: "We Won't Chill Till We Confirm The Kill".

Source (via Mondoweiss): Dead Palestinian babies and bombed mosques - IDF fashion 2009 (Ha'aretz):

"We Won't Chill Till We Confirm The Kill" [3]


No one deluded himself that the Palestinian Ministry of Culture, which takes up five of the eight floors of a new building in the center of El Bireh, would be spared the fate of other Palestinian Authority offices in Ramallah and other cities - that is, the nearly total destruction of its contents and particularly its high-tech equipment.

After all, Israel Defense Forces troops were deployed in the building for about a month...

On the evening of Wednesday, May 1, when the siege on Arafat's headquarters was lifted and the armored vehicles and the tanks had rumbled out, the executives and officials of the ministry who had rushed to the site did not expect to find the building the way they had left it.

Employees of the local radio and television station, Amwaj, also hastened to the scene, as did the employees of the local television channel, Istiqlal, which take up three stories of the building.

But what awaited them was beyond all their fears, and also shocked representatives and cultural attaches of foreign consulates, who toured the site the next day.

In other offices, all the high-tech and electronic equipment had been wrecked or had vanished - computers, photocopiers, cameras, scanners, hard disks, editing equipment worth thousands of dollars, television sets. The broadcast antenna on top of the building was destroyed.

Telephone sets vanished. A collection of Palestinian art objects (mostly hand embroideries) disappeared. Perhaps it was buried under the piles of documents and furniture, perhaps it had been spirited away. Furniture was dragged from place to place, broken by soldiers, piled up. Gas stoves for heating were overturned and thrown on heaps of scattered papers, discarded books, broken diskettes and discs and smashed windowpanes.

In the department for the encouragement of children's art, the soldiers had dirtied all the walls with gouache paints they found there and destroyed the children's paintings that hung there.

In every room of the various departments - literature, film, culture for children and youth books, discs, pamphlets and documents were piled up, soiled with urine and excrement.

There are two toilets on every floor, but the soldiers urinated and defecated everywhere else in the building, in several rooms of which they had lived for about a month. They did their business on the floors, in emptied flowerpots, even in drawers they had pulled out of desks.

They defecated into plastic bags, and these were scattered in several places. Some of them had burst. Someone even managed to defecate into a photocopier.

The soldiers urinated into empty mineral water bottles. These were scattered by the dozen in all the rooms of the building, in cardboard boxes, among the piles of rubbish and rubble, on desks, under desks, next to the furniture the solders had smashed, among the children's books that had been thrown down.

Some of the bottles had opened and the yellow liquid had spilled and left its stain. It was especially difficult to enter two floors of the building because of the pungent stench of feces and urine. Soiled toilet paper was also scattered everywhere.

In some of the rooms, not far from the heaps of feces and the toilet paper, remains of rotting food were scattered. In one corner, in the room in which someone had defecated into a drawer, full cartons of fruits and vegetables had been left behind. The toilets were left overflowing with bottles filled with urine, feces and toilet paper.

Relative to other places, the soldiers did not leave behind them many sayings scrawled on the walls.

Here and there was the candelabrum symbols of Israel, stars of David, praises for the Jerusalem Betar soccer team.

Someone had forgotten to take his dog tag with him. His name is recorded in the newspaper's editorial offices.

Now the Palestinian Ministry of Culture is considering leaving the building the way it is. A memorial.

-- Someone even managed to defecate into the photocopier, by Amira Hass; Ha'aretz, 6 May 2002. (h/t Angry Arab)

"If You Believe It Can Be Fixed, Then Believe It Can Be Destroyed!" [3]


A mother and son, both American citizens, were savagely beaten last week by Israeli security at the Israeli entry point from Jordan: Allenby Bridge. The victims were 47 year old Tina Hannouneh and her 17 year old son...

Hannouneh, who was born in the West Bank, moved to Arizona in 1986, where she now works as banker. She and her son Michael had come to Palestine, on a holiday, to visit friends and family. The incident occurred because 17 year old Michael, who suffers form a chronic heart condition, was listening to his i-pod.

Tina Hannouneh1

Tina underwent surgery last week in Beit Jala. Afterwards, she spoke to PNN about her ordeal:

"We were entering through security when a guy dressed as a civilian approached Michael. He grabbed Michael's neck with his right hand and reached for the i-pod with his left hand, shouting `give me that' in Arabic."

Michael, who has spent most of his life in the US, does not speak or understand Arabic. He was unaware that the man choking him was a security officer, and refused to give him the mp3 player. Hannouneh added, "The security officer was not wearing a uniform. My son couldn't have recognized him as army or police. He payed $400 for that i-pod, he's not just going to give it to anybody."

Confused and bewildered about what was happening, Michael held on to his i-pod. It was then that the officer became violent. Hannouneh explained that "the guy punched him, dropped him to the ground, and started banging his head against on the floor." She continued, "He shouted in Arabic `you can't say no to a police officer.'"

After trying to protect her son, the officer turned on Hannouneh. She commented, "As hard as he could he hit my face. I fell to the floor and hit my head on the metal bar in the security fence. I have two stitches and my nose is really smashed. My shirt and my pants were covered in blood".

Tina Hannouneh2

The terrorized family's ordeal only came to an end when other officials realized they were American. Like all Palestinians, Hannouneh and her son were victims of institutional racism at the heart of the Israeli security service. Hannouneh told PNN, "They did this to me because of the color of my skin, because I'm Palestinian". She continued, "I can't even travel through the checkpoint and complain to the US Consulate in Jerusalem because I am Palestinian. It's humiliating".

Adi Dagan, from Machsom Watch, an Israeli human rights organization that monitors checkpoints, told PNN: "To them she is just a Palestinian. Palestinians are without protection. In 2004 we documented 100 complaints of violence and we only received about 10 responses, sometimes soldiers are punished, but often nothing happens. This is what ordinary Palestinians go through everyday."

-- American family brutally assaulted at Israeli checkpoint; PNN, 17 Jul 06. (via After Downing Street).

"Let Every Arab Mother Know That Her Son's Fate Is In My Hands!" [3]


New widower Shukri al-Makadama lies on the floor of his brother's house, lighting cigarette after cigarette. His neck is encased in plaster, due to a possible fractured vertebra caused by a wall falling on top of him. He mourns his dead wife and moans in pain.

Staring at the ceiling, he quietly describes - in fluent Hebrew, from all the years he worked in Tel Aviv - the events of that terrible night when the Israel Defense Forces destroyed his house and his world, and killed his wife - Noha al-Makadama, a mother of 10, who was in her ninth month of pregnancy.

Late one night last week, the army came to demolish the house of the family of teenage terrorist Sami Abdel Salam, who was shot dead on February 9 after he and several others started shooting at IDF soldiers in the El Bureij refugee camp in Gaza. In the process, they also demolished the homes of seven other families - without warning and while the residents were inside. Before she lost consciousness, Noha, who was due to give birth any day, managed to shout to her husband to protect the children and to hand him the small purse that held the money she was saving for a washing machine. He shows us the blue purse, still full of coins.

Noha was buried alive under the rubble of her house last Monday, and her unborn child died with her. Brigadier General Gadi Shemani, the Gaza division commander, said the next day that the IDF has "no evidence" of the woman's death and thereby exempted himself and his soldiers from any responsibility for the despicable killing. Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz said something similar and just as outrageous at the cabinet meeting. So, as a service to the defense minister and the division commander, the full story of the killing of Noha al-Makadama and her unborn child, crushed to death when their home was demolished by the IDF, is hereby presented�

-- 'Save the children, Shukri!', by Gideon Levy; Ha'aretz, 12 Mar 2003.


My army killed a woman in her ninth month of pregnancy. I know that, her husband knows that, her brother knows that, her kids know that, the hospital team at Dir-El- Balakh knows that, those who dug her grave and covered it know that.

Only my army does not know. Brigadier General Gadi Shamani, the man in charge of the Gaza Strip, notified us publicly that "evidence was not found" for the Palestinian claim.

"Evidence was not found..." What a perfect bureaucratic phrasing. An under-clerk in the customs office would not have phrased it better. Probably Reduction Form AC/6416, for the sum of 1 FCP (Fetus Carrying Palestinian) was not filled out properly.

Following, Mister Brigadier General, please find enclosed the evidence: The name of the buried was Nuha Al-Makadma, and she was 33 at the time of her death. Nuha, RIP, was buried alive in her house, in front of her husband and children.

You could easily identify the house; this is the ruin next to the other ruin that your soldiers demolished deliberately. Her husband's name, by the way, is Shukri, and for an unknown reason he has been very sad lately. Perhaps because he saw his wife's body at the hospital, namely - found the evidence to account for the fact that she is dead. The fetus in her womb died with her (attached Enemy-Fetus Termination form in three copies).

A dead fetus is a very unpleasant thing from the explanatory aspect. Therefore, Mister Brigadier General, it is worthwhile for you to quickly find evidence that Nuha's womb was indeed a munitions cache, in which a potential Sha'hid was hidden, caught attached with his navel to a bleeding cord. There is no doubt that the majority of the Israeli people will eagerly buy the evidence brought forth. They are good at that.

-- Evidence Hereby Submitted, by B. Michael; Yediot Ahronot, 7 March 2003. (link)


Photo: A sharpshooter's T-shirt printed for members of the Shaked Battalion of the IDF's Givati Infantry Brigade. The design depicts a pregnant Palestinian woman with a bull's-eye superimposed on her belly, with the slogan, in English, "1 shot, 2 kills.".

Source: Dead Palestinian babies and bombed mosques - IDF fashion 2009 (Ha'aretz); via Mondoweiss.

"One Shot - Two Kills" [1]


Aviv: "I am squad commander of a company that is still in training, from the Givati Brigade. We went into a neighborhood in the southern part of Gaza City. Altogether, this is a special experience. In the course of the training, you wait for the day you will go into Gaza, and in the end it isn't really like they say it is. It's more like, you come, you take over a house, you kick the tenants out and you move in. We stayed in a house for something like a week.

"Toward the end of the operation there was a plan to go into a very densely populated area inside Gaza City itself. In the briefings they started to talk to us about orders for opening fire inside the city, because as you know they used a huge amount of firepower and killed a huge number of people along the way, so that we wouldn't get hurt and they wouldn't fire on us.

"At first the specified action was to go into a house. We were supposed to go in with an armored personnel carrier called an Achzarit [literally, Cruel] to burst through the lower door, to start shooting inside and then ... I call this murder ... in effect, we were supposed to go up floor by floor, and any person we identified - we were supposed to shoot. I initially asked myself: Where is the logic in this?

"From above they said it was permissible, because anyone who remained in the sector and inside Gaza City was in effect condemned, a terrorist, because they hadn't fled. I didn't really understand: On the one hand they don't really have anywhere to flee to, but on the other hand they're telling us they hadn't fled so it's their fault ... This also scared me a bit. I tried to exert some influence, insofar as is possible from within my subordinate position, to change this. In the end the specification involved going into a house, operating megaphones and telling [the tenants]: 'Come on, everyone get out, you have five minutes, leave the house, anyone who doesn't get out gets killed.'

"I went to our soldiers and said, 'The order has changed. We go into the house, they have five minutes to escape, we check each person who goes out individually to see that he has no weapons, and then we start going into the house floor by floor to clean it out ... This means going into the house, opening fire at everything that moves , throwing a grenade, all those things. And then there was a very annoying moment. One of my soldiers came to me and asked, 'Why?' I said, 'What isn't clear? We don't want to kill innocent civilians.' He goes, 'Yeah? Anyone who's in there is a terrorist, that's a known fact.' I said, 'Do you think the people there will really run away? No one will run away.' He says, 'That's clear,' and then his buddies join in: 'We need to murder any person who's in there. Yeah, any person who's in Gaza is a terrorist,' and all the other things that they stuff our heads with, in the media.

"And then I try to explain to the guy that not everyone who is in there is a terrorist, and that after he kills, say, three children and four mothers, we'll go upstairs and kill another 20 or so people. And in the end it turns out that [there are] eight floors times five apartments on a floor - something like a minimum of 40 or 50 families that you murder. I tried to explain why we had to let them leave, and only then go into the houses. It didn't really help. This is really frustrating, to see that they understand that inside Gaza you are allowed to do anything you want, to break down doors of houses for no reason other than it's cool.

"You do not get the impression from the officers that there is any logic to it, but they won't say anything. To write 'death to the Arabs' on the walls, to take family pictures and spit on them, just because you can. I think this is the main thing in understanding how much the IDF has fallen in the realm of ethics, really. It's what I'll remember the most."

"One of our officers, a company commander, saw someone coming on some road, a woman, an old woman. She was walking along pretty far away, but close enough so you could take out someone you saw there. If she were suspicious, not suspicious - I don't know. In the end, he sent people up to the roof, to take her out with their weapons. From the description of this story, I simply felt it was murder in cold blood."

Zamir: "I don't understand. Why did he shoot her?"

Aviv: "That's what is so nice, supposedly, about Gaza: You see a person on a road, walking along a path. He doesn't have to be with a weapon, you don't have to identify him with anything and you can just shoot him. With us it was an old woman, on whom I didn't see any weapon. The order was to take the person out, that woman, the moment you see her."

...

Ram: "What I do remember in particular at the beginning is the feeling of almost a religious mission. My sergeant is a student at a hesder yeshiva [a program that combines religious study and military service]. Before we went in, he assembled the whole platoon and led the prayer for those going into battle. A brigade rabbi was there, who afterward came into Gaza and went around patting us on the shoulder and encouraging us, and praying with people. And also when we were inside they sent in those booklets, full of Psalms, a ton of Psalms. I think that at least in the house I was in for a week, we could have filled a room with the Psalms they sent us, and other booklets like that.

"There was a huge gap between what the Education Corps sent out and what the IDF rabbinate sent out. The Education Corps published a pamphlet for commanders - something about the history of Israel's fighting in Gaza from 1948 to the present. The rabbinate brought in a lot of booklets and articles, and ... their message was very clear: We are the Jewish people, we came to this land by a miracle, God brought us back to this land and now we need to fight to expel the gentiles who are interfering with our conquest of this holy land. This was the main message, and the whole sense many soldiers had in this operation was of a religious war. From my position as a commander and 'explainer,' I attempted to talk about the politics - the streams in Palestinian society, about how not everyone who is in Gaza is Hamas, and not every inhabitant wants to vanquish us. I wanted to explain to the soldiers that this war is not a war for the sanctification of the holy name, but rather one to stop the Qassams."

    -- Shooting and Crying by Amos Harel; Ha'aretz, 20 Mar 2009 (Israeli soldiers who served in the Israeli attack on Gaza, Dec 2008-Jan 2009 discuss their experiences).

Photo: T-shirt printed in January 2009 for members of the "Night Predators" demolitions platoon from Battalion 13 of the IDF's Golani Brigade. T-shirt depicts a devil detonating a charge that destroys a mosque. An inscription above it says, "Only God forgives."

Source: Dead Palestinian babies and bombed mosques - IDF fashion 2009 (Ha'aretz); via Mondoweiss.

"Only God Forgives"

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Apr 09 - 03:19 PM

This part right here...

"The rabbinate brought in a lot of booklets and articles, and ... their message was very clear: We are the Jewish people, we came to this land by a miracle, God brought us back to this land and now we need to fight to expel the gentiles who are interfering with our conquest of this holy land"


That makes it genocide.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 20 Apr 09 - 03:22 PM

Hitler was a master at editing, picking and choosing. Lovely to see the tradition being carried on in the name of 'whatever the fuck' is on the table at any given time.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Apr 09 - 09:22 PM

I would say that the tradition is being carried on by the people who are committing genocide today, and that would be the government of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Apr 09 - 09:43 PM

Anyway, since we doing the Hitler comparisons, let's try this one on for size. I'm speaking out against genocide. That makes me the opposite of Hitler. The person who is trying to silence me using slimy smear tactics is trying to silence people who speak out against genocide, and that's the one (between the two of us) who is carrying on Hitler's work.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Apr 09 - 05:24 AM

The palestinian population is exploding.
Something like half the people are under 25.
How does that equate to a genocide?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 21 Apr 09 - 05:47 AM

You speak about genocide yet ignore the Hamas charter. You are an artisan of duplicity. No more--no less.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 21 Apr 09 - 08:03 AM

She's not merely an artisan of duplicity. She does Mahmoud Ahmadinejad proud with her complete solidarity with his vision.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Apr 09 - 01:50 PM

Hamas's Bloody Hands

By Richard Cohen
Tuesday, April 21, 2009

Some residents of Gaza were taken from their homes and shot in the legs or feet. Some were brutally beaten, and some were simply murdered, sometimes after hideous torture. If you are expecting -- based on everything that has happened -- that the awful Israelis did this, guess again. It was Hamas, the authentic and genuine government of Gaza. Well, no one's perfect.

The information about the shootings is taken from a report issued yesterday by Human Rights Watch. It says that "Hamas security forces or masked gunmen believed to be with Hamas" executed 18 people, most of whom were accused of collaborating with Israel, sparing the expense and bother of a trial. Others were shot, maimed or beaten, not for allegedly collaborating with the enemy -- or, as is often the case, having a house or woman that a snitch covets -- but for belonging to the opposition political party, Fatah.

Many of these murders and assaults took place during Israel's recent pummeling of Gaza. Yet, as Human Rights Watch goes to some pains to document, at no time did Hamas's security forces lose control of Gaza, so the murders and maimings were not a consequence of chaos but of government policy. Whatever the case, the murders, shootings and beatings continued even after the hostilities ended. Since then, at least 14 more people have been executed extrajudicially, which is to say murdered. Some were also tortured.

You can only imagine what would happen if Israel dealt with its internal political enemies or dissenters in such a fashion. Last month, for instance, Israel got a heap of criticism and abuse when it was reported in the Israeli media that some Gaza civilians had been unjustifiably shot by Israeli soldiers. The report was widely cited, not just for its shocking allegations but also because it was supposedly indicative of the sort of place Israel has become. The government said the allegations were based on hearsay. We shall see.

No doubt the Human Rights Watch report will be ignored or dismissed in the greater cause of demonizing Israel. This has been the trend of late. No doubt, too, some will excuse Hamas's criminality as the inevitable result of Israeli actions -- the Officer Krupke School of Behavior made famous by the singing gang members of "West Side Story." But as much as some would like to criticize Israel -- and I have done so myself -- they still have a minimal obligation to acknowledge the difference in core values between Israel and its enemies.

This does not mean that Israel is above criticism. After all, it has made life unbearable for some Palestinians, supported illegal settlements in the West Bank, been too harsh in squeezing Gaza, and, maybe most important, it ought to get out of the West Bank -- for reasons of justice and for its own sake. Still, it remains unimaginable that Israel would murder its domestic critics or silence dissent with the occasional kneecapping. These are the tactics of thugs.

Read the Hamas charter. It is not some uplifting cry of a downtrodden people seeking its freedom but a repellent anti-Semitic screed. It sees the Jews behind every major world event since the storming of the Bastille: "They were behind the French revolution, the communist revolution and most of the revolutions we heard and hear about, here and there. With their money they formed secret societies, such as Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, the Lions . . . for the purpose of sabotaging societies and achieving Zionist interests." The Rotary? The Lions? Why not Welcome Wagon?

When Israelis talk of the practical difficulties of pulling out of the West Bank, they mean the likelihood that Hamas will oust Fatah and launch rockets into Israel. They are both concerned and appalled by a Hamas charter that, in part, reads like it could have been written by Hitler. Withdrawal is necessary and right, but it cannot be done naively and without the participation of the United States. It's going to take American peacekeepers. It is that simple. No Israeli can trust Hamas to keep the peace.

Human Rights Watch is to be commended. It does not have one standard for Israel and another for Hamas, Hezbollah or the other despotic regimes of the Arab world. That is more than can be said, though, for critics who vilify Israel, romanticize Hamas and clearly have never had the inexpressible pleasure of living in a place where a chance remark can get your legs riddled with lead. Say what you will, but that place could never be Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Apr 09 - 02:01 PM

Genocide, from what I have been told by one of the advocates for Israel in this forum, doesn't require that vast numbers of people have already been killed. It's genocide as soon as the first person is killed, if the killing is for the purpose of doing what is defined in the United Nations thus...

[G]enocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.


Under the UN's definition (endorsed by the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, what the Israeli government is doing to the Palestinians is genocide.

Now, on the subject of Hamas and its charter... the hypocrites are the smear mongers on this thread who fail to mention that not only is the US not refusing to talk with Israel because of its genocide against the Palestinians, it is actively supporting it, and even providing it with the weapons it is using to carry out that genocide and also sending US taxpayer money to help finance the apartheid settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem.

Whereas, the US and many Western governments have not only refused to talk with Hamas, they are even preventing the people of Gaza from being able to get basic necessities of life through their support of Israel's blockade of Gaza.

So the hypocrites (and the racist hate mongers) are the people who support Israel's genocide of the Palestinians (the above posters who are using smear tactics to try to silence me, for instance), and the ones who support the blockade of Gaza and the isolation of Hamas, even despite the fact that Hamas is responsible for a fraction of the number of Israeli civilians killed as compared to the number of Palestinian civilians Israel has killed.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Apr 09 - 02:06 PM

And I would point out that I would be perfectly happy if the US government would just deal with both sides (both of whom people have accused of genocide) equally. This definitely cannot be said of the racist hate mongers in this thread who think that only Hamas should be held responsible for their crimes against humanity, but the Israeli government should be supported in theirs.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 21 Apr 09 - 03:02 PM

When I read the following, I had to wonder if it was CarolC writing on Mudcat Cafe.

"The victorious powers [of the world wars] call themselves the conquerors of the world, while ignoring or down-treading the rights of other nations by the imposition of oppressive laws and international arrangements. Following World War Two, they resorted to making an entire nation homeless on the pretext of Jewish suffering. They sent migrants from Europe, the United States and other parts of the world in order to establish a totally racist government in the occupied Palestine. In compensation for the dire consequences of racism in Europe, they helped bring to power the most cruel and repressive, racist regime in Palestine. It is all the more regrettable that a number of Western governments and the United States have committed themselves to defending those racist perpetrators of genocide, whilst the awakened consciences and free-minded people of the world condemn aggression, brutality and the bombardment of civilians of Gaza. Today, the human community is facing a kind of racism which has tarnished the image of humanity. In the beginning of the third millennium, the word Zionism personifies racism, that falsely resorts to religion and abuses religious sentiments to hide hatred. Efforts must be made to put an end to the abuse by Zionists and their supporters of political and international means. Governments must be encouraged and supported in the fight aimed at eradicating this barbaric racism and moving towards reforming the current international mechanisms."

But no, it was just Mahmoud Ahmadinejad spewing hate yesterday at the Un Durban Review Conference in Geneva.

Thankfully, my country has a Prime Minister (Stephen Harper) and Opposition Leader (Michael Ignatieff) and the United States has a President (Barack Obama) who recognize this hatred for what it is and don't let the Mahmoud Ahmadinejads, or George Galloways, or CarolCs of this world make our policy.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 22 Apr 09 - 04:16 AM

"This definitely cannot be said of the racist hate mongers in this thread who think that only Hamas should be held responsible for their crimes against humanity, but the Israeli government should be supported in theirs."

In a word, horseshit. You clearly demonstrated time and time again that the racist here is you. Backing up now changes nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Apr 09 - 11:01 AM

People who are trying to defend the indefensible have to resort to smear tactics, because that's all they have to work with.

On the subject of Ahmadinejad, I disagree with his Holocaust denial. And I condemn it. But everything else he said happens to be true. The Holocaust denial part of it is probably racist. The rest is not.

The people who are attempting to smear me because some of what I say coincides with some of what Ahmadinejad says are doing so because they have to try to divert attention away from their own racist and supremacist philosophies and actions. That's the only tactic available to them because they have absolutely no legitimate or moral ground to stand on.

Until such people call for Israel to be treated in the same way as Hamas (and all of the Palestinians), their racism and supremacism is obvious to anyone who does not share that racism and supremacism.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Apr 09 - 11:36 AM

"I was struck by Dr. Gilbert's tone and manner. He spoke to the audience by walking up and down the aisle, looking at people directly and inviting them into his story. He was upfront about his politics and sympathies - against all killing of civilians, in solidarity with the oppressed (the Palestinians) and sympathetic to all who resist military occupation (be they Israeli or Palestinian). Occupation is the disease, said the doctor, and until it is ended, the patients (Palestinian and Israeli) will not achieve a healthy life.

Dr. Gilbert warned of the graphic nature of some of his photos, but explained that to understand the crisis in Gaza one must look at the realities. The most graphic, he explained were not necessarily the bloody stumps and ripped apart bodies (although I had a hard time looking at those), but the sorrowful, vacant look in some of the eyes of the children, the utter grief in the eyes of a mother, the look of submission in the eyes of an old man. One photo of a Palestinian farmer who lost a hand in an explosion from a missile, was upsetting, not because he lost his hand (which thankfully wasn't shown in the photo) but because of his look of utter loss. 'What will become of my life now,' said the farmer to Dr. Gilbert. 'All I ever wanted was to farm my land. I am not political, nor care about the different factions. I just wanted to provide for my family. How can I do that now?'

Dr. Gilbert wove facts and figures into his narratives about patients' lives and experiences during the three week assault. At one point in his presentation he stopped speaking and played a soundtrack he recorded of the night sounds of Gaza. For five minutes we in the audience listened quietly to the sound of the humming drones, distant explosions, rocket and machine gunfire. Imagine these sounds 24 hours a day, every day of the week, said Dr. Gilbert as he moved onto the next group of slides.

Photos of Shifa hospital, the epicenter of trauma treatment in the heart of Gaza City. Windows shattered and covered with paper. Cold hallways where relatives huddled outside operation rooms. Operating rooms that were used simultaneously for multiple operations so that supplies and electricity could be shared. A chest operation alongside a leg amputation on two patients. Doctors working on 3 hours of sleep a day. Female volunteer nurse helpers who showed up to lend a hand and stayed for weeks. All functioning with the constant sounds of sirens, shelling, explosions. Dr. Gilbert's stories began to merge into one overwhelming picture of unending horror. But also, his photographs conveyed an amazing story of Palestinian resilience in face of so much death and destruction.

Dr. Gilbert gave the audience a reprieve from his stories by playing a lullaby, sung by a Palestinian singer to her children. Again, the audience sat still, some with tears rolling down their cheeks, as the photos of Palestinians in Gaza continued on the screen.

When he finally finished speaking (he spoke for two hours), the audience clapped and a few asked questions. I felt as if the audience was shell shocked. As if we were for the first time understanding a bit of the horror that is life in Gaza. The images, the sounds, the stories all bringing to life what we had witnessed (and protested) from afar a few months ago. I watched as after the talk, person after person (most of them Arab) went up to Dr. Gilbert to shake his hand, to thank him for his service, to tell him how good it feels to hear the truth from an eyewitness. One Palestinian-American girl, perhaps eight years old, stood in front of me and told the doctor, 'You have given me hope, Dr. Gilbert. Because now I know we can make a difference. I don't have to just sit at home and cry and be sad about what is happening in my country. I can go there and help the people, be a doctor like you who saves lives.' Dr. Gilbert gave her a pin that had two flags - Norwegian and Palestinian flags intertwined - and told her he hopes to see her in a free Palestine some day."

http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2009/04/chicago-audience-shell-shocked-by-doctors-presentation-of-gaza-under-attack.html

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Apr 09 - 11:46 AM

After shooting one Palestinian demonstrator, Israeli soldiers call out, 'Do you want more gas?'

"This is a fuller video than the short, shocking video we posted last night depicting the killing of Bassem Ibrahim Abu Ramah yesterday at the weekly protest of the confiscatory wall in the West Bank village of Bil'in. The video shows plainly that the demonstrators were not violent. Here is a rough translation of the words on the video, supplied by an anonymous friend:

The demonstrators are telling the soldiers in Hebrew that there are children and Israelis present and they are asking them not to shoot. Bassem is shouting "listen, wait a minute, wait a minute" before he falls to the ground. The soldiers then fire another round of tear gas as the demonstrators yell that he is injured and needs an ambulance.

In the longer video, as [Mohammed] Khatib is arguing with the soldier, I can't make out all of it because they're talking over each other, but you can clearly hear the soldier say, "do you want more gas?" They can see someone is on the ground and bleeding and because they know it's a Palestinian, they don't care.

And the soldier is telling Khatib "Are you going to shut up?" as Khatib pleads with him to stop shooting. The Israeli who's next to Bassem right after the shooting is just saying, there's an injured man, bring an ambulance quickly. He asks Bassem where he was hit. The demonstrators also repeat throughout, this is a non-violent demonstration. The soldiers merely respond with teargas."


New York Times quotes Israeli military's false account of Bil'in killing despite video evidence


http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2009/04/30yearold-palestinian-resident-of-bilin-killed-in-weekly-nonviolent-protest-against-the-wall.html

The ISM notes that Abu Rahmeh is the 18th Palestinian killed by the Israel military while protesting the Wall. Here is a list. Although such a needless death is a tragedy at any age, please note how young some of those killed have been:

February 26th, 2004:
Muhammad Fadel Hashem Rian, age 25 and Zakaria Mahmoud 'Eid Salem, age 28
Shot dead during a demonstration against the wall in Biddu.

February 26th, 2004:
Abdal Rahman Abu 'Eid, age 17
Died of a heart attack after teargas projectiles were shot into his home during a demonstration against the wall in Biddu.

February 26th, 2004:
Muhammad Da'ud Saleh Badwan, age 21
Shot during a demonstration against the wall in Biddu. Muhammad died of his wounds on March 3rd 2004.

April 16th, 2004:
Hussein Mahmoud 'Awad 'Alian, age 17
Shot dead during a demonstration against the wall in Betunya.

April 18th, 2004:
Diaa' A-Din 'Abd al-Karim Ibrahim Abu 'Eid, age 23
Shot dead during a demonstration against the wall in Biddu.

April 18th, 2004:
Islam Hashem Rizik Zhahran, age 14
Shot during a demonstration against the wall in Deir Abu Mash�al. Islam died of his wounds April 28th.

February 15th, 2005:
'Alaa' Muhammad 'Abd a-Rahman Khalil, age 14
Shot dead while throwing stones at an Israeli vehicle driven by private security guards near the wall in Betunya.

May 4th, 2005:
Jamal Jaber Ibrahim 'Asi, age 15 and U'dai Mufid Mahmoud 'Asi, age 14
Shot dead during a demonstration against the wall in Beit Liqya.

February 2nd, 2007:
Taha Muhammad Subhi al-Quljawi, age 16
Shot dead when he and two friends tried to cut the razor wire portion of the wall in the Qalandiya Refugee Camp. He was wounded in the thigh and died from loss of blood after remaining a long time in the field without being treated.

March 28th, 2007:
Muhammad Elias Mahmoud 'Aweideh, age 15
Shot dead during a demonstration against the wall in Um a-Sharayet - Samiramis.

March 2nd, 2008:
Mahmoud Muhammad Ahmad Masalmeh, age 15
Shot when trying to cut the razor wire portion of the wall in Beit Awwa.

July 29th, 2008:
Ahmed Husan Youssef Mousa, age 10
Killed while he and several friends tried to remove coils of razor wire from land belonging to the village.

July 30th, 2008:
Youssef Ahmed Younes Amirah, age 17
Shot in the head with rubber coated bullets during a demonstration against the wall in Ni'lin. Youssef died of his wounds August 4th 2008.

December 28th, 2009:
Arafat Khawaja, age 22
Shot in the back with live ammunition in Ni'lin during a demonstration against Israel�s assault on Gaza.

December 28th, 2009:
Mohammad Khawaja, age 20:
Shot in the head with live ammunition during a demonstration in Ni'lin against Israel's assault on Gaza. Mohammad died in the hospital on December 31st 2009.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 22 Apr 09 - 12:10 PM

Blah, blah, blah.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Apr 09 - 12:16 PM

Smears and taunts is all they've got.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 22 Apr 09 - 12:21 PM

I salute the Queen of Cut and Paste. If you can't beat 'em with brains, baffle them with bullshit.

When is the last time you disagreed with the Hamas Charter?
When is the last time you wrote to Hamas asking them to stop the rockets? Suicide bombings?
When is the last time you perceived Jews to be human?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 22 Apr 09 - 12:22 PM

"This definitely cannot be said of the racist hate mongers in this thread who think that only Hamas should be held responsible for their crimes against humanity, but the Israeli government should be supported in theirs."

When is the last time you realized that if you sling this kind of shit around that some of it would land back in your lap?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 22 Apr 09 - 12:29 PM

Hamas delegation in Egypt ahead of unity talks
3 days ago

EL-ARISH, Egypt (AFP) — A delegation of Hamas officials from Gaza arrived in Egypt through the Rafah border crossing on Sunday, a border official said, a week before Palestinian unity talks were to resume in Cairo.

The delegation was led by Salah Bardawil, one of the Islamist movement's leaders in the Gaza Strip.

Hamas and its secular rival Fatah, led by Palestinian Authority president Mahmud Abbas, have been bitterly divided after Hamas seized control of Gaza in a week of deadly factional fighting in June 2007.

Egyptian efforts to reconcile them have been unsuccessful so far because of disagreements on the composition and obligations of a Palestinian unity government.

Hamas and Fatah adjourned their last round of meetings in early April, with Fatah saying it wished to discuss new proposals by Egyptian mediators with the leadership.

The main stumbling block is the obligations of a unity government. Hamas, which wants to replace Israel with an Islamic Palestinian state, says it will not commit to existing agreements between Israel and the Palestinian Authority.

The Middle East Quartet -- Russia, the United States, United Nations and European Union -- has made dealing with Hamas conditional on its recognition of Israel and commitment to past Palestinian-Israeli accords.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 22 Apr 09 - 12:32 PM

I will go get more cut and paste for you. Back soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 22 Apr 09 - 12:34 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThhunhZ6kEk

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 22 Apr 09 - 12:56 PM

Tell me about the peaceful people you support. Just tell me.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 22 Apr 09 - 01:03 PM

Let us know when you've written to Al Jazeera and complained about their coverage and the programs they air.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: bobad
Date: 22 Apr 09 - 01:17 PM

Iranian Atomic Slip of Tongue...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ileZKRVI-2M

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 22 Apr 09 - 02:21 PM

OOOOOOOPS

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: michaelr
Date: 22 Apr 09 - 03:25 PM

I would like to pose a simple question, and I would like Peace, beardedbruce, Barry Finn, McGrath of Harlow, and CarolC to answer it. Please answer yes or no only.

Q: Is the life of an Israeli civilian worth more than that of a Palestinian civilian?

Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 22 Apr 09 - 03:44 PM

Lives are lives. Period. And you know that, Michael--at least I hope you do.

Now, I have a question or two back to you.

What do you think of the Hamas Charter?

Have YOU ever written to Hamas protesting their violent actions? I have written to Israel protesting theirs.

Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Apr 09 - 03:55 PM

Human lives are of equal value- as are the Fatah lives ended by Hamas, and the Darfur lives, and the Cambodians, and the Armenians.


How many Jews are there in the Arab nations?
How many Arabs in the Jewish nation?

Tell me again about genocide- where are the Jews that before 1948 lived in the West Bank???? ( ruled from 1948 to 1967 by Jordan- and tell me about the Palestinian state that was created... Oh, I forgot, there was none, since Jordan itself was supposed to be the Moslim (Arab) Palestinan Homeland portion of Mandate Palestine, as Israel was supposed to be the Jewish Homeland

Why were Jews forbidden to settle east of the Jordan, in the Transjordan 77% of the Mandate Palestine?

How many times have the Arabs, in part or whole, declared thay would destroy the Jews? Lets just look at 1948 and later...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 22 Apr 09 - 07:55 PM

Rights group: Hamas kills, tortures foes

WASHINGTON (JTA) -- Hamas systematically killed and tortured its opponents, Human Rights Watch reported.

The watchdog reported this week that the terrorist group had killed 32 opponents and maimed dozens of others during and after its recent war with Israel in the Gaza Strip.

"The spate of attacks began during Israel's military operation, from December 27, 2008 to January 18, 2009, including the summary execution of 18 men in Gaza, most of them suspected collaborators with Israel," the report said. "It has continued in the three months since, with 14 more killings, at least four of them of people in detention."

Human Rights Watch rejected explanations from Hamas officials that such crimes were the exception and that some of those responsible faced charges.

"The systematic nature of many of the executions and attacks, and the fact that killings have continued after the Israeli offensive, undercut these assertions," the rights group said.

Israel launched a military operation in late December after Hamas broke a cease-fire with a massive intensification of rocket attacks on southern Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 22 Apr 09 - 08:17 PM



She condemns Ahmadinejad's Holocaust denial but agrees with everything else he says. Since Ahmadinejad wasn't denying the Holocaust in the speech this week that I quoted, we must conclude that she agrees with everything else that Ahmadinejad has said.

I sure hope that she has never in her life had sexual relations outside the bounds of marriage. If she has, she, in agreeing with Ahmadinejad, beleives she should be executed by a male member of her family. I hope there are no gay people in her family, because she believes, in agreeing with Ahmadinejad, that they should be put to death.

Let us hope the world prevents Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons so that Ahmadinejad cannot carry out his threats to wipe Israel, all Zionists and Jews off the face of the earth.

And let us, for God's sake, pray that she never comes into possession of a weapon of mass destruction.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Apr 09 - 12:15 AM

I have never not disagreed with the Hamas charter. But Hamas is the only actor in this scenario (between the government of Israel and Hamas) who is being punished, despite the fact that Hamas' crimes against humanity pale in comparison to those of the government of Israel.

And clearly, the person who is accusing me of not seeing Jews as human beings is the one who doesn't see them as human beings, because that person is not willing to acknowledge the existence of the many who don't agree with that person's racist attitudes towards Palestinians, and who are working very hard and making tremendous sacrifices to help the Palestinians gain their independence. Like the ones who are responsible for many of the links that I've provided in this thread, for instance.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Apr 09 - 12:18 AM

The life of an Israeli civilian is worth exactly the same as the life of a Palestinian civilian, and each of them is worth exactly the same as all other civilians everywhere in the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Apr 09 - 12:19 AM

The idea that it is necessary for me to protest Al Jazeera is rather absurd. Which population is Al Jazeera holding under a brutal and racist military occupation, armed and funded by my tax dollars?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Apr 09 - 12:28 AM

On the subject of Jews who fled "Arab" countries, this from an Iraqi (Arab) Jew...

"I write this article for the same reason I wrote my book: to tell the American people, and especially the American Jews, that Jews from Islamic lands did not emigrate willingly to Israel; that, to force them to leave, Jews killed Jews; and that, to buy time to confiscate ever more Arab lands, Jews on numerous occasions rejected genuine peace initiatives from their Arab neighbors."

http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache:M1nyWwzuqz8J:www.ameu.org/uploads/vol31_issue2_1998.pdf+Naeim+Giladi&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Apr 09 - 12:32 AM

South Africans discuss their trip to Palestine, and say the Israeli military occupation of Palestine is much, much worse than South African Apartheid

"Lunch is in a hotel in the city, and Madlala-Routledge speaks. "It is hard for me to describe what I am feeling. What I see here is worse than what we experienced. But I am encouraged to find that there are courageous people here. We want to support you in your struggle, by every possible means. There are quite a few Jews in our delegation, and we are very proud that they are the ones who brought us here. They are demonstrating their commitment to support you. In our country we were able to unite all the forces behind one struggle, and there were courageous whites, including Jews, who joined the struggle. I hope we will see more Israeli Jews joining your struggle."

She was deputy defense minister from 1999 to 2004; in 1987 she served time in prison. Later, I asked her in what ways the situation here is worse than apartheid. "The absolute control of people's lives, the lack of freedom of movement, the army presence everywhere, the total separation and the extensive destruction we saw."

Madlala-Routledge thinks that the struggle against the occupation is not succeeding here because of U.S. support for Israel - not the case with apartheid, which international sanctions helped destroy. Here, the racist ideology is also reinforced by religion, which was not the case in South Africa. "Talk about the 'promised land' and the 'chosen people' adds a religious dimension to racism which we did not have."

Equally harsh are the remarks of the editor-in-chief of the Sunday Times of South Africa, Mondli Makhanya, 38. "When you observe from afar you know that things are bad, but you do not know how bad. Nothing can prepare you for the evil we have seen here. In a certain sense, it is worse, worse, worse than everything we endured. The level of the apartheid, the racism and the brutality are worse than the worst period of apartheid.

"The apartheid regime viewed the blacks as inferior; I do not think the Israelis see the Palestinians as human beings at all. How can a human brain engineer this total separation, the separate roads, the checkpoints? What we went through was terrible, terrible, terrible - and yet there is no comparison. Here it is more terrible. We also knew that it would end one day; here there is no end in sight. The end of the tunnel is blacker than black."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Apr 09 - 01:07 AM

Lots of links from and/or about Jews who are working very hard for Palestinians' freedom in this thread, too

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 23 Apr 09 - 03:29 AM

That is much too dramatic. Hamas is a governemnt organization. So is the Likud. You have never NOT? Spare me.

Either it's wrong or it's right. Tell me when you told Hamas/AlJazeera they are wrong. From that point we can talk. Until then, we have NO common ground. Capiche?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Apr 09 - 04:08 AM

I have said that I don't agree with Hamas on many occasions here in the Mudcat, and I have even condemned their killing of civilians many times. If someone who is only looking to smear me rather than actually read what I have to say can't be arsed to pay attention when I do that, that's their problem and says far more about them than about me. I have never written to Hamas (and I can't imagine how I would do that) and I have also never written to the government of Israel. I have, however, condemned the actions of both Hamas, as well as the government of Israel here in the Mudcat. However, writing to either of them will obviously have no effect whatever. This is because the people who need to be written to are the people in the US government who approve the funding of Israel's war machine and its colonialist settlements with US taxpayer dollars.

I will ask again, however, what population is Al Jazeera holding under a brutal and racist military occupation, and I will add, what population is Al Jazeera committing genocide against? I don't protest the racist Israeli propaganda organs, either. That's because they don't have any power over anyone, any more than Al Jazeera has.

But all of this is beside the point. The point is that Israel holds all the power, and its crimes against humanity are vastly more immense than those of Hamas. We are punishing, not only Hamas, but also all of the civilians in Gaza. We are not only not punishing the government (or any of the civilians) of Israel, we (me, my government, and my fellow US taxpayers) are supporting the government of Israel in what it is doing to the Palestinians.

So it is not an outside entity that I am protesting against. It is my own country, and its involvement in and support of Israel's genocide, apartheid, ethnic cleansing, and military occupation of the Palestinians that I am protesting against. Not only do I have a right to do this, I have a responsibility to do it. Unlike me, the person repeatedly trying to smear me in this thread has the luxury of living in a country that is not directly responsible for what the government of Israel does, so that person can sit back with their popcorn and enjoy the show while thousands of Palestinian children get killed and/or maimed by the government of Israel.

The person who has been haranguing me in this thread wrote a letter to the government of Israel (I bet that made a big difference), and has spent the rest of their time trying to shut up people who are working to get the government of the US to stop supporting Israel's crimes against the Palestinians and against humanity. Nice work.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Apr 09 - 04:19 AM

And, to put it another way, there is no reason for me to protest US government support of Hamas, because it isn't getting any and there is no reason for me to protest Hamas not being held responsible for its killing of civilians, because it is already being punished for that.

When was the last time the racist who consistently follows me around using smear tactics on me wrote the members of the US government demanding that the government of Israel also be punished, and to demand that the US government stop supporting and arming it?

Never? That's what I thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Apr 09 - 07:14 PM

Almost forgot. On the subject of Ahmadinejad's speech (the original version of which could be said to contain Holocaust denial, and which was only changed at the last minute), I agree with all of the rest of what I have read so far (I haven't had a chance to read the whole thing yet). I agree with his characterizations of the imperial West, and what he has said about Israel's behavior.

On the subject of everything else he has ever said, I have not read what he has to say about whether or not he embraces the strict form of Islam that he has been characterized as embracing in a post above, so I am not in a position to form an opinion. I definitely am not in agreement with hardline beliefs about Islam, but its not my place to decide for the Iranians what sort of Islam they should practice, or whether or not to have a secular government. I support the moderates in that country, but I don't have a vote there. The Iranians, on the other hand, do have a vote there, in free and open elections. And they will decide.

However, Iran is not a danger to me in any way shape or form, not even if it gets nuclear weapons. The only fear I have about Iran is that the government of Israel will do something profoundly stupid and attack that country. An attack on Iran will not, according to most experts, prevent Iran from getting a nuclear weapon eventually, and attacking them will result in a hell of a lot of pain, suffering, and death.

If we want Iran to consider not arming itself with nuclear weapons, one thing that might help would be for the government of Israel to stop threatening it (which it has been doing for many years). Israel doesn't want there to be any major powers besides itself in the Middle East, and this agenda, along with the wars that Israel starts and the instability it creates in many countries in order to enforce this agenda, is the thing that causes me the most concern. However, I've read that Lieberman has announced that Iran is no longer the major threat to Israel, and he has shifted his focus (like Obama), to Afghanistan, and Pakistan. So my guess is that either Israel is going to fall in line behind Obama's program, or they're just pretending to do so and they're going to wage a surprise attack on Iran when nobody's paying much attention. I certainly hope the latter does not happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Apr 09 - 07:17 PM

Of course, another way to persuade Iran to give up any nuclear weapon ambitions would be for Israel to get rid of its nuclear weapons.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Apr 09 - 07:20 PM

Oh, yeah. One more thing. Ahmadinejad has never threatened to wipe Israel or all Zionists or Jews off the face of the earth.

That is a lie that is being promoted to give Israel an excuse to attack Iran first, but he never, never, never said that.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 23 Apr 09 - 09:01 PM

The Iranians, on the other hand, do have a vote there, in free and open elections. And they will decide.

Oh, yeah. One more thing. Ahmadinejad has never threatened to wipe Israel or all Zionists or Jews off the face of the earth.

That is a lie that is being promoted to give Israel an excuse to attack Iran first, but he never, never, never said that.

Does anyone think she actually believes the things she says. Does she really think Iran has "free and open elections"?

Does she actually believe Ahmadinejad has never threatened to wipe Israel and Jews off the map?

Ahmadinejad threatens Israel with annihilation

Another link

And another one.

We could go on and on posting hundreds of links to articles in reputable publications on the threats made by her hero Ahmadinejad.

Then again, maybe I'm wrong, and Bracak Obama is wrong, and Hilary Clinton is wrong, and Stephen Harper is wrong, and Gordon Brown is wrong, and Tony Blair is wrong and CarolC is right.

Hell, even Ahmadinejad is wrong because he's repeated his threats many times.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Apr 09 - 09:14 PM

That's not a threat. It's a prediction. One has to really torture and distort his words to make them mean that he is threatening Israel with annihilation.

What he is saying there, and what he has consistently said, is that Israel is rotting from the inside out, and eventually it will collapse of own weight just like the Soviet Union did. And I think he has a very good point.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Apr 09 - 09:15 PM

I should clarify that. He is specifically referring to what he calls the "Zionist regime in Israel". And this is what he has consistently said.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Apr 09 - 09:22 PM

Also, Iran's elections are free and open, and moderates do get elected. It is not a particularly controversial thing to say that.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: bobad
Date: 23 Apr 09 - 10:49 PM

RAFSANJANI SAYS MUSLIMS SHOULD USE NUCLEAR WEAPON AGAINST ISRAEL

TEHRAN 14 Dec. (IPS) One of Iran’s most influential ruling cleric called Friday on the Muslim states to use nuclear weapon against Israel, assuring them that while such an attack would annihilate Israel, it would cost them "damages only".

"Jews shall expect to be once again scattered and wandering around the globe the day when this appendix is extracted from the region and the Muslim world", Mr. Hashemi-Rafsanjani warned, blaming on the United States and Britain the "creation of the fabricated entity" in the heart of Arab and Muslim world.

Observing that despite the fact that Israel is believed to have more than one hundred atomic warheads and the necessary technology to transport them to the very heart of Iran and elsewhere, but no Israeli official nor any newspaper have ever raised the slightest possibility of an atomic threat, "even in defence of their very existence", Mr. Salamatian wondered the reasons behind Mr. Hashemi-Rafsanjani’s declaration, which he said should be taken seriously "considering the rank of the man who pronounced it".

http://www.iran-press-service.com/articles_2001/dec_2001/rafsanjani_nuke_threats_141201.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Apr 09 - 01:04 AM

That web page clearly is not a media organ of the Iranian government, or even the Iranian press. The website itself is located in France, according to the IP number.

So who made that page? When I google text from the page, I find a lot of anti-Iran, anti-Muslim hate sites, and the comments sections of blogs, but nothing else. I don't see any reason why we should accept that page as actually coming from, or containing any actual quotes from any members of the Iranian government.

I think it's probably a page that has been fabricated specifically for the purpose of it being used in precisely the manner it has been in the post above. To help spread hatred of Iranians, and to create a pretext and soften people in the West up for an attack on Iran, and not only that, one that was fabricated back in 2002 or before.

I found this in the Council on Foreign Relations website...


Iranian Expert Banuazizi: Rafsanjani Only Presidential Hopeful Who Can End U.S. Nuclear Standoff

Authors:         
Bernard Gwertzman, Consulting Editor
Ali Banuazizi

May 11, 2005

Ali Banuazizi, an expert on Iranian politics, says that of the various candidates for the next presidential election in Iran on June 17, only former President Ali Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani has a chance of ending the standoff with Washington over Iran�s nuclear program. Rafsanjani, he says, has held every position of authority in the Islamic Republic, and therefore �has the credibility, much like Nixon did vis-a-vis China, to cross that bridge.�

Rafsanjani, who is considered a pragmatic politician...

http://www.cfr.org/publication.html?id=8099


Here are some recent articles about Rafsanjani in some actual news sites...


In the Iranian press (lots of criticism, but no talk of a nuclear attack on Israel) -

http://www.tehrantimes.com/index_View.asp?code=180820


And elsewhere -

"'Using the language of threat, and unfriendly rhetoric will not help resolve the problems. Iran is truly ready to settle issues through negotiations without preconditions and within the framework of international law,' Rafsanjani told French ambassador Bernard Poletti in a meeting on Sunday."

http://www.payvand.com/news/09/jan/1168.html


Spreading lies is vicious, and also murderous, if people end up getting killed because of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: bobad
Date: 24 Apr 09 - 12:15 PM

Qods Day Speech (Jerusalem Day)

Chairman of Expediency Council Akbar Hashemi-Rafsanjani

December 14, 2001, Friday

Voice of the Islamic Republic of Iran, Tehran, in Persian 1130 gmt 14 Dec 01
Translated by BBC Worldwide Monitoring

"If one day ... Of course, that is very important. If one day, the Islamic world is also equipped with weapons like those that Israel possesses now, then the imperialists' strategy will reach a standstill because the use of even one nuclear bomb inside Israel will destroy everything. However, it will only harm the Islamic world. It is not irrational to contemplate such an eventuality."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Apr 09 - 12:23 PM

Again, when I Google a quote from that text, the only sites that come up are ones with a political axe to grind. Not a single legitimate news outlet comes up.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: bobad
Date: 24 Apr 09 - 12:27 PM

Voice of the Islamic Republic of Iran, Tehran, in Persian 1130 gmt 14 Dec 01
Translated by BBC Worldwide Monitoring

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Apr 09 - 01:08 PM

And yet, when I google a quote from the text, the BBC does not come up, nor does any other legitimate news outlet.

Look, anyone can create a headline like that. That doesn't make it real.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 24 Apr 09 - 01:48 PM

CarolC--You are much more computer literate than I. You are able to find some of the most obscure information to cut and paste in support of your arguments. However, as you have not been able to find the source of Bobad's posts, please let me help you. It took me fewer than 10 minutes to find the comments cited.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/iran/2001/011214-text.html

It is in the third paragraph of the section headed, "US-British support for Israel."

Good reading.
JotSC

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 24 Apr 09 - 02:51 PM

There are none so blind . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Apr 09 - 03:18 PM

None so blind indeed. The Jews of Iran don't share the thirst for Iranian blood of the commentators in the above posts...


An American rabbi reports on her visits to the 'oldest ongoing Jewish community in the world:' Iran

Roger Cohen's recent editorial in the New York Times about Iranian Jews continues to reverberate. Below is a reflection by Rabbi Lynn Gottlieb (pictured below). Rabbi Gottlieb led a delegation to Iran last April and visited again in December. A Middle East Program Associate with the American Friends Service Committee in San Francisco, she will be visiting Iran again this August.

Rabbi-Lynn-Gottlieb Reading Roger Cohen's piece in the NY Times confirmed my own experience in Iran. I have had the pleasure of meeting the ancient community of Jews from Esfahan, Shiraz and Teheran on two separate occasions. I attended services in each of the cities, met with the official representatives of the community twice in Shiraz and Teheran and had several private conversations in hotel lobbies and private homes for hours on end, with youth and elders. I was also surprised at the depth of study of Jewish sources by Muslim scholars at Mofid University who quoted Maimonides, Rashi and Torah with ease and were anxious to learn more. As in any culture there is a diversity of attitudes. The condition of Jews is really no different than the condition of others who are in the 'reformist' camp. There is a need for interfaith civilian diplomacy so that those relationships can be explored and nurtured.

The Jewish community of Iran has been present in their society for nearly 3000 years. They object to the attitude by non Iranian western Jews that we want to save them, or educate them, or in any way interfere with their cultural and religious life. Before we make assumptions about what they need or who they are, it would be well to acknowledge that they are the oldest ongoing community of Jews in the world continuously associated with one place. They are not Jews of exile. They are deeply rooted in the land of Cyrus. They can visit the graves of Esther and Mordecai, Daniel and Habbakuk. They possess a Torah that is over 1200 years old. The Jews of Esfahan have their own language! The Jews of Iran are deeply proud of their own heritage, even though they, like other Iranians, may struggle with the limitations imposed by the Islamic Republic on freedom of expression.

The second delegation I led to Iran in December 2008 composed of 10 Jewish participants and four non-Jewish participants, included two rabbis, a rabbinic student, and six other members who identify as 'religious' Jews. During our visit to Yusef Abad, the largest of approximately 22 synagogues in Tehran, I was invited to speak from the bimah (for the second time). Like the first time, people clapped and shouted in appreciation for our visit. When I identified the members of our delegation and asked them to stand, and pointed out that Sarah Bassem was also studying to be a rabbi, the congregation cheered again. Many people came up to me and began asking me 'rabbinic' questions, regardless of my gender.

Obviously, there are limitations on life for non-Muslims. There are limitations on life for minorities in the States as well. Still, the Jewish community is extremely proud of its heritage, and views the Iranian American Jewish community as somewhat lost. They point to the increase in divorce and inter-marriage as an example of the impact of assimilation which they do not feel in Iran.

The idea of Israel attacking Iran is an anathema to the Jews of Iran. Certainly, it would endanger them. We should cease and desist all bellicose language that threatens military action toward Iran immediately. For those of us in the Jewish community who have had the pleasure to visit the Jews of Iran, we understand the preciousness of that community. Any actions taken by Israel that would put the Jews of Iran in danger is a travesty.

Finally, I look forward to my next visit which will occur this coming August. I pray that the gates will remain open, and I will have the profound pleasure of deepening my experience with this ancient and honorable community.

http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2009/02/a-rabbis-reflection-on-iran.html

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Apr 09 - 03:21 PM

Global Security dot Org is not a legitimate news outlet.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 24 Apr 09 - 04:00 PM

"Global Security dot Org is not a legitimate news outlet."

From which one is, I suppose, to infer they are making-up the whole translation of the speech? Are they more suspect in culling information than, say, CarolC, if someone desired to use her as a cite from a paste here at Mudcat? Are they less of a news outlet than, perhaps, the Huffington Post or Little green Footballs?

They sourced the the material--who gave the speech, when, why, and the origin of the translation--and they indicated the additions of sub-headings not in the original speech. I would think that is pretty open and aboveboard. And perhaps worth a read.

"Little wheels spin and spin...", B. Sainte-Marie

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Apr 09 - 05:01 PM

They could be passing it along from the people who did make it up. It's not like such things haven't happened many, many times in the history of the hasbara narrative. People with an interest in preventing the emergence of or eliminating the existence of any major powers in the Middle East besides Israel have been making up stuff like this for a very long time. Unless I see that speech from a source that doesn't have an obvious axe to grind on this subject, I am disinclined to believe that it is legitimate.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Apr 09 - 05:02 PM

Hell, even the major news outlets, which have a very clear bias in favor of anything the government of Israel wants, aren't putting their names on that one. That tells me a lot.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: michaelr
Date: 24 Apr 09 - 06:53 PM

In support of CarolC, I asked a simple question.

Q: Is the life of an Israeli civilian worth more than that of a Palestinian civilian?

Not unexpectedly, nobody answered "yes", because in doing so they would have branded themselves racists.

"Human lives are of equal value" appears to be the consensus. Given that, does it not then follow that these human lives should be treated and protected equally? The government of Israel and the Western powers are clearly not dealing equitably with the Palestinian people. Ahmedinejad is correct in pointing this out.

The origins of the state of Israel are another case in point. It should be remembered that anti-semitism was not invented by Nazi Germany, but had been a paradigm throughout Europe for centuries. Britain and the other WWII victors involved decided cynically that "we'll dump the Jews (who we don't want) on the Arabs (who we don't care about)". This was clearly racist, and Ahmedinejad is correct in pointing it out. Whatever you think of the man, it is intellectually dishonest to demonize him in the way I've seen here.

I don't support Hamas. I support the right of the Palestinian people to peace and self-determination.

Peace is not only the absence of war, but the presence of justice.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 24 Apr 09 - 08:08 PM

"I am disinclined to believe that it is legitimate."

Of course you are...it doesn't fit your point of view.



"Little wheels spin and spin...", B. Sainte-Marie

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Apr 09 - 08:43 PM

CarolC writted:
Date: 23 Apr 09 - 09:22 PM

"Also, Iran's elections are free and open, and moderates do get elected. It is not a particularly controversial thing to say that"

Iranian elections are subject to nominees not getting certified due to a clique of religious officials who are not elected.
"All candidates have to be approved by the Guardian Council."

Not unlike Soviet Elections where the ruling clique determined who could be- well, the ruling clique.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Apr 09 - 09:33 PM

Not only does it not fit my point of view, it doesn't seem to fit the point of view of anyone other than a small group of people with a rather large political agenda.


On the subject of Iranian elections... since the Guardian Council do approve moderate candidates, the people in Iran do have a choice between moderates and right-wingers.

The people of Iran want Western countries to leave them alone and let them correct the problems in that country themselves. They don't want our interference. They have said this many times. They have said that they can take care of what needs to be done, but not if the US and other Western countries (and Israel) keep interfering. They have said many times that when other countries interfere, that strengthens the hard-liners in Iran rather than weakening them. This is, of course, exactly what the government of Israel wants, because the government of Israel uses the presence of right-wingers in power in Iran as an justification for attacking that country.

The government of Israel does not want Iran to correct its problems - what they want is for Iran to be destroyed as a viable entity just as was done to Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Apr 09 - 10:34 PM

However. Having said all of that, I will consider accepting that speech as legitimate if the people who are trying to convince me it is will accept the reality of the quotes contained in this website...

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Famous-Zionist-Quotes/Story637.html

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 24 Apr 09 - 10:38 PM

"the reality of the quotes contained in this website...

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Famous-Zionist-Quotes/Story637.html "


"the only sites that come up are ones with a political axe to grind. Not a single legitimate news outlet comes up."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: michaelr
Date: 24 Apr 09 - 10:45 PM

Anyone care to address my post?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Apr 09 - 11:23 PM

Just as I thought. Some people are willing to accept information that comes from websites with a political axe to grind that coincides with their own particular political axe, but if someone else posts something from a website with a political axe they don't happen to like, they refuse to accept it.

What's good for the goose, as they say...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Apr 09 - 11:25 PM

I wouldn't hold my breath on getting that question answered.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 24 Apr 09 - 11:48 PM

"Global Security dot Org is not a legitimate news outlet."
Well, maybe they are untrustworthy rat bastards, so how about this source with the 'complete transcript' of Rafsanjani's speech. By the way, I'm not enthralled with citing them, but I believe you've used them a time or two over the years.


http://www.wwan.cn/documents/ga/docs/56/a56790.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Apr 09 - 11:57 PM

LOL!!!!

That is a letter from the Permanent Representative of Israel to the United Nations (an employee of the government of Israel) that he or she addressed to the Secretary General.

There can be no more biased source than that.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 12:05 AM

Here's an interesting quote from that Palestine Remembered site...


During the course of the 1948 war, reports of WAR CRIMES perpetrated by the Israeli soldiers reached the Israeli Cabinet. Such atrocities shocked Aharon Cizling, and during a Cabinet meeting he said:

    "I've received a letter on the subject. I must say that I have known what things have been like for some time and I have raised the issue several times already here. However after reading this letter I couldn't sleep last night. I felt the things that were going on were hurting my soul, the soul of my family and all of us here. I could not imagine where we came from and to where are we going. . . . I often disagree when the term Nazi was applied to the British. I wouldn't like to use the term, even though the British committed Nazi crimes. But now Jews too have behaved like Nazis and my entire being has been shaken. . . . Obviously we have to conceal these actions from the public, and I agree that we should not even reveal that we're investigating them. But they must be investigated. . . ." (1949, The First Israelis, p. 26)

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Famous-Zionist-Quotes/Story697.html

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 12:21 AM

"Not unexpectedly, nobody answered "yes", because in doing so they would have branded themselves racists."

That is solipsist bs. Michael. I answered your question, but I'm maybe too old to get sucked into Socrates and his 'answer my question in the way I want you to answer it' crap. Nice try but no banana.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: michaelr
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 12:22 AM

I wouldn't hold my breath on getting that question answered.
Not even by you, Carol? You're breaking my heart now.

I'm on your side, you know.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 12:38 AM

Heh. I figured that I had already answered that question in any number of posts of mine right here in this thread.

Of course they should all be treated and protected equally.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 01:16 AM

Here's another interesting quote from the Palestine Remembered site...


A month after the Nazi pogrom against Germany's Jews, famously known as Kristallnacht, Ben-Gurion provided an interesting mathematical formula for saving German Jewish kids. He stated in December 1938:

    "If I knew it was possible to save all [Jewish] children of Germany by their transfer to England and only half of them by transferring them to Eretz-Yisrael, I would choose the latter----because we are faced not only with the accounting of these [Jewish] children but also with the historical accounting of the Jewish People." (Righteous Victims, p. 162)

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Famous-Zionist-Quotes/Story696.html

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 02:40 AM

It's hard not to notice that Israel has just found itself not guilty of targeting Palestinian civilians during it's recent 'adventure' in Gaza, despite Israeli soldiers' statements to the contrary - now there's a surprise!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 04:54 AM

Michaelr requested that someone address his post of - 24 Apr 09 - 06:53 PM

1.        "Human lives are of equal value" appears to be the consensus. Given that, does it not then follow that these human lives should be treated and protected equally? The government of Israel and the Western powers are clearly not dealing equitably with the Palestinian people. Ahmedinejad is correct in pointing this out."

Agreed human lives should be treated and protected equally. Can you now tell us michaelr how Hamas Charter squares with that concept? You didn't mention it in your post but I am sure it was foremost in your mind when you wrote your condemnation of the Government of Israel and the Western Powers. Can you provide us with a quote from the Hamas Charter whereby Israelis Arab or Jew will be treated and protected equally? Tell me does the United Nations recognize the Palestinian Authority or Hamas? They cannot recognize Hamas under the terms of their Charter as long as Hamas calls for the destruction of a recognized member state (Israel) so it is not just a matter of the Western Powers is it michaelr, even although it is from the EU that the Palestinians receive the lions share of their international aid.

2.        "The origins of the state of Israel are another case in point. It should be remembered that anti-semitism was not invented by Nazi Germany, but had been a paradigm throughout Europe for centuries. Britain and the other WWII victors involved decided cynically that "we'll dump the Jews (who we don't want) on the Arabs (who we don't care about)". This was clearly racist, and Ahmedinejad is correct in pointing it out. Whatever you think of the man, it is intellectually dishonest to demonize him in the way I've seen here."

Much of what you state above is irrelevant twaddle. The bare facts of the matter with regard to the origins of the State of Israel (May 1948) are that the UN proposed a Plan involving a two-state solution in 1947 as the old League of Nations Mandate for Palestine was ending. The Jews of Palestine accepted that proposal; the Arabs of Palestine rejected it. Had they accepted as their Jewish neighbours did there would have been no displaced persons Jew or Arab, therefore no "Right of Return" question to resolve. The Palestinian Arabs would have in terms of territory far more than they say they are willing to settle for now.

I particularly liked your "Britain and the other WWII victors involved decided cynically that "we'll dump the Jews (who we don't want) on the Arabs (who we don't care about)". Perhaps you could give us figures for the great Jewish exodus from the United Kingdom post 1945 michaelr? Quite the contrary to what you suggest, it was the express desire of European Jews themselves that they migrate to the newly formed Israel after the Second World War, understandable considering their treatment at the hands of the Germans and lack of protection afforded them by what they, at the time, saw as being their native Governments and fellow countrymen. As to the British not caring about "the Arabs", we didn't care enough about them to the degree that within five years of the start of the Palestine Mandate Britain had handed over 77% of it to "the Arabs" for their exclusive settlement which by 1926 they ruled as an autonomous state within the mandate. Of the remaining 23% of the Mandate this was open to settlement by all.

Therefore michaelr if Ahmedinejad based his remarks on what you have laid out, then the man is clearly a racist and deserves all the approbation heaped upon him and the regime that he represents. We are of course talking of the regime that backs Hezbollah and Hamas both terrorist organizations who for years have been guilty of maintaining the Palestinian people in poverty and despair despite the millions upon millions that have been donated in aid to ease their suffering.

3.        "I don't support Hamas. I support the right of the Palestinian people to peace and self-determination.

Very commendable of you not to support Hamas michaelr, neither do I, and while I likewise support the right of the Palestinian people to peace and self-determination I also support the right of the people of Israel to peace and self-determination. Interesting to see that you apparently do not, as they don't merit a mention in your post.


CarolC, 24 Apr 09 - 09:33 PM.

"On the subject of Iranian elections... since the Guardian Council do approve moderate candidates, the people in Iran do have a choice between moderates and right-wingers."

If memory serves me correctly CarolC in a democracy anyone wishing to stand for political office is free to do so. They do not have to present themselves for a selection process in front of a committee of 12 non-elected people who adjudicate as to the "suitability" of candidates. Your words quoted above are "weasely" in the extreme and you damn well know it, were the same system enforced in the USA you'd be up in arms about it.

"The government of Israel does not want Iran to correct its problems - what they want is for Iran to be destroyed as a viable entity just as was done to Iraq."

Now then CarolC I have sources for quotes from the Iranian President stating that Israel should be wiped off the map – can you please provide any source where the Israeli Prime Minister or president has made similar statements about Iran?

Jim Carroll, 25 Apr 09 - 02:40 AM

"It's hard not to notice that Israel has just found itself not guilty of targeting Palestinian civilians during it's recent 'adventure' in Gaza, despite Israeli soldiers' statements to the contrary - now there's a surprise!!!"

Bit like the "Indian rope trick" Jim, everybody can tell you what it is and swears that it exists but no-one has ever actually seen it done. The "Israeli soldier's statements" you seem to put such faith in were all thoroughly investigated and guess what Jim? None of them actually saw what they stated, they had heard it from somebody who knew somebody who had seen it, and hear-say is no evidence at all – is it??

By the bye Jim had those Israeli soldiers said that such incidents definitely had not happened would you have accepted it?? Something tells me that you would not.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 06:24 AM

Terribus,
The soldiers' statements included at length observations on how they regarded and were trained to regard Palastinians - "Less than animals" as one so eloquently put it, pretty much the same as the Nazis were trained to regard the Jews.
Their statements also included their own behaviour towards the Gazans - perhaps they were somewhere else while they were shooting civilians (not forgetting, shitting in their cooking utensils).
Of course - it's all a leftie plot anyway!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 11:04 AM

If, in a democracy, anyone who wishes to stand for election is free to do so, then Israel is not a democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 11:06 AM

By the way, there are no quotes anywhere (not accurate translations, anyway) of the president of Iran stating that Israel should be wiped off the map. This is because he never said that.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: bobad
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 11:48 AM

Commentary on this semantic legerdemain is available here; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad_and_Israel.

In essence the subtleties of meaning vary with translation, a clever way of threatening by insinuation just as some posters who implicate by insinuation then challenge those who challenge them to show where they said that which is being challenged.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 12:05 PM

Direct translation here. The only semantic ledgerdemain is coming from those who are trying to twist his words to mean something that they clearly do not...


http://www.antiwar.com/orig/norouzi.php?articleid=11025

Across the world, a dangerous rumor has spread that could have catastrophic implications. According to legend, Iran's president has threatened to destroy Israel, or, to quote the misquote, "Israel must be wiped off the map." Contrary to popular belief, this statement was never made.

On Tuesday, October 25th, 2005 at the Ministry of Interior conference hall in Tehran, newly elected Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad delivered a speech at a program, reportedly attended by thousands, titled "The World Without Zionism." Large posters surrounding him displayed this title prominently in English, obviously for the benefit of the international press. Below the poster's title was a slick graphic depicting an hour glass containing planet Earth at its top. Two small round orbs representing the United States and Israel are shown falling through the hour glass' narrow neck and crashing to the bottom.

Before we get to the infamous remark, it's important to note that the "quote" in question was itself a quote – they are the words of the late Ayatollah Khomenei, the father of the Islamic Revolution. Although he quoted Khomeini to affirm his own position on Zionism, the actual words belong to Khomeini and not Ahmadinejad. Thus, Ahmadinejad has essentially been credited (or blamed) for a quote that is not only unoriginal, but represents a viewpoint already in place well before he ever took office.

The Actual Quote:

So what did Ahmadinejad actually say? To quote his exact words in Farsi:

"Imam ghoft een rezhim-e ishghalgar-e qods bayad az safheh-ye ruzgar mahv shavad."

That passage will mean nothing to most people, but one word might ring a bell: rezhim-e. It is the word "regime." pronounced just like the English word with an extra "eh" sound at the end. Ahmadinejad did not refer to Israel the country or Israel the land mass, but the Israeli regime. This is a vastly significant distinction, as one cannot wipe a regime off the map. Ahmadinejad does not even refer to Israel by name, he instead uses the specific phrase "rezhim-e ishghalgar-e qods" (regime occupying Jerusalem).

So this raises the question.. what exactly did he want "wiped from the map"? The answer is: nothing. That's because the word "map" was never used. The Persian word for map, "nagsheh" is not contained anywhere in his original Farsi quote, or, for that matter, anywhere in his entire speech. Nor was the western phrase "wipe out" ever said. Yet we are led to believe that Iran's president threatened to "wipe Israel off the map." despite never having uttered the words "map." "wipe out" or even "Israel."

The Proof:

The full quote translated directly to English:

"The Imam said this regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time."

Word by word translation:

Imam (Khomeini) ghoft (said) een (this) rezhim-e (regime) ishghalgar-e (occupying) qods (Jerusalem) bayad (must) az safheh-ye ruzgar (from page of time) mahv shavad (vanish from).

Here is the full transcript of the speech in Farsi, archived on Ahmadinejad's web site

The Speech and Context:

While the false "wiped off the map" extract has been repeated infinitely without verification, Ahmadinejad's actual speech itself has been almost entirely ignored. Given the importance placed on the "map" comment, it would be sensible to present his words in their full context to get a fuller understanding of his position. In fact, by looking at the entire speech, there is a clear, logical trajectory leading up to his call for a "world without Zionism." One may disagree with his reasoning, but critical appraisals are infeasible without first knowing what that reasoning is.

In his speech, Ahmadinejad declares that Zionism is the West's apparatus of political oppression against Muslims. He says the "Zionist regime" was imposed on the Islamic world as a strategic bridgehead to ensure domination of the region and its assets. Palestine, he insists, is the frontline of the Islamic world's struggle with American hegemony, and its fate will have repercussions for the entire Middle East.

Ahmadinejad acknowledges that the removal of America's powerful grip on the region via the Zionists may seem unimaginable to some, but reminds the audience that, as Khomeini predicted, other seemingly invincible empires have disappeared and now only exist in history books. He then proceeds to list three such regimes that have collapsed, crumbled or vanished, all within the last 30 years:

(1) The Shah of Iran – the U.S. installed monarch

(2) The Soviet Union

(3) Iran's former arch-enemy, Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein

In the first and third examples, Ahmadinejad prefaces their mention with Khomeini's own words foretelling that individual regime's demise. He concludes by referring to Khomeini's unfulfilled wish: "The Imam said this regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time. This statement is very wise." This is the passage that has been isolated, twisted and distorted so famously. By measure of comparison, Ahmadinejad would seem to be calling for regime change, not war.


Also relevant is this quote from Iran's supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei...

"We have no problem with the world. We are not a threat whatsoever to the world, and the world knows it. We will never start a war. We have no intention of going to war with any state."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: bobad
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 12:15 PM

"despite never having uttered the words "map." "wipe out" or even "Israel."

It seems that translators who work for the president's office and the foreign ministry disagree with that.

"All official translations of Mr. Ahmadinejad's statement, including a description of it on his website, refer to wiping Israel away. Sohrab Mahdavi, one of Iran’s most prominent translators, and Siamak Namazi, managing director of a Tehran consulting firm, who is bilingual, both say “wipe off” or “wipe away” is more accurate than "vanish" because the Persian verb is active and transitive."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 12:37 PM

Their disagreement is whether the term "wipe" (away or off) is used as opposed to "vanish". There is no dispute about the fact that what is predicted to be wiped or to vanish is not Israel, or Jews, but the political "regime in Jerusalem", which are entirely different things.

And there is no dispute from the Iranian translators about Ahmadinejad's meaning - that he is predicting that it will happen, rather than threatening to make it happen.

It is quite obvious to anyone who isn't trying to spread lies about Iran for the purpose of drumming up support for an attack on that country, that Ahmadinejad is saying that the "regime" (government) of Israel is going to cease to exist at some point in the future, without any help from Iran, and that he, Ahmadinejad, sees that as a good thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 12:44 PM

Wait up!! When you lot have stopped dancing on the head of a pin square away what the President of Iran said with the declared aim of Hamas as written in their Charter clearly states. Hamas is backed by Iran YES or NO.

By the bye CarolC can you tell me how many Jewish members of any legislatitive council ther are in the the 22 Arab countries in the world. I know for certain that there are freely elected Arab members of the Israeli Parliament.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: robomatic
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 12:52 PM

Carol, it is quite definite that there are all sorts of quotes that can be found and excised and held up for comment. You are cherry-picking your quotes, your situations, and overlooking the forest for the trees. And this is a tactic. A rather obvious one that loses traction with overuse, as you are clearly doing with your self-successive posts.

What is obvious about the Israeli forest is that it contains many Arab trees. What is obvious about the Arab forest is that it contains NO Jewish trees. And you are trying to blame the JEWS for this!

BTW, The Iranian forest has a dungeon in it with a freshly imprisoned Iranian-American journalist sequestered there on trumped-up charges. Ahmedinajad wrote a letter suggesting that when she appeal she be allowed to defend herself (!!!!!!!!!!!)

As for the Iranian Guardian council they approve only those candidates that they approve. This assures them of an unopposed domination of the Iranian people. I suspect the Iranian people do not like that and would be aghast at your portrayal of their 'free elections'. (FREE? You get arrested for NOT voting?)

The operating rule of HELL is that which is not prohibited is mandatory !

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 12:55 PM

Lady who cut my hair a few days back was kind enough to tell me about herself. I asked where she was from. She said, "Persia." She follows the Baha'i belief. Said that it was brutal in her home country for people who were not Muslim. So much for freedom in Iran.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 12:55 PM

We are discussing Iran (a Persian country), not Arab countries. In Iran, as was observed above, candidates must be approved by a council that represents the revolutionary regime. In Israel no party can stand for election that hasn't been approved by the government. For instance, a candidate belonging to a party that calls Palestinian right of return is not allowed to stand for office.

There is no meaningful difference between these two things.


The Hamas charter doesn't recognize Israel. Hamas has said that they don't recognize Israel because Israel will not declare its borders. I think that's perfectly reasonable. However, Hamas has also said that they will not try to stop a two-state resolution to the problem if the Palestinians vote for that in a referendum.

The government of Israel has never recognized a Palestinian state, either.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 01:03 PM

I have been accused of cherry picking my quotes. I would suggest that this is precisely what those who are arguing the other side are doing. For instance, they are completely ignoring anything members of the Iranian government are saying that doesn't support their view of Iran and their desire to wage war against that country.


I never said they have freedom in Iran. I said they have free and open elections, and I said that the people in Iran want to sort out their problems themselves without the interference of Western governments. I think they have more of a right to decide that than Iranians living in other countries, since the ones living in other countries don't have to live with the consequences of that interference. The ones still in Iran do have to live with those consequences.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 01:05 PM

I didn't blame Jews for the absence of Jews in Arab countries. An Arab Jew, however, has laid the blame, not on "the Jews", but on those Jews who formed the Zionist movement during the formation of the state of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 01:09 PM

I think it is also obvious that those who support the government of Israel overlook the forest for the trees. For instance, we have, above, someone who thinks that only a direct quote from the prime minister of Israel can suffice to show what Israel's actual agenda is, rather than looking at the large body of quotes from many members of the Israeli government over the course of Israel's history, and also Israel's actual track record of what it and the individual members of its government have done. It's true, this is a tactic, and those who support the government of Israel are masters at it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 01:14 PM

June 6, 2004

Claims that reforms in Iran have put an end to torture are simply false. More than ever, journalists, intellectuals and activists are afraid to voice opinions critical of the government.

Sarah Leah Whitson, Executive Director of Human Rights Watch's Middle East and North Africa Division

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 01:16 PM

April 5, 2009

(CBS) Much of the attention on Iran over the last few years has focused on its mysterious nuclear program. Another mystery that has received far less attention is torture in Iran's prisons.

It's a story the Iranian government doesn't want you to hear; a story a man risked his life to tell. His name is Ahmad Batebi, and quite by accident he became one of the most famous dissidents in Iran.

He says he endured years of torture in an Iranian prison, after his picture appeared on the cover of The Economist magazine. He escaped from Iran last year, and told CNN's Anderson Cooper how he did it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 01:19 PM

And the people in Iran have said many times that interference from Western countries, strengthens, rather than weakens the hard-liners in the regime.

The motives of people who are using the rights of Iranians as an excuse to attack Iran are very transparent. They won't listen to what the Iranians themselves say about what they want, but rather, they think they are entitled to override the desires if the people of Iran and impose their own agenda on the people of that country. This has nothing whatever to do with the rights of the Iranians, and everything to do with a desire to establish and enforce Israeli hegemony in the Middle East.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 01:19 PM

And now,

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 01:20 PM

Smears and taunts is all they've got.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 01:20 PM

Good advice.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 01:27 PM

. . . and cut and paste, lest we forget.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 01:33 PM

Some interesting commentary on the walkout at the Geneva Conference on racism.


"The 23 countries that walked out of the Geneva Conference during Ahmadinejad's speech are: Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Cyprus, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden and the UK.

The 27 EU members are the above plus Germany, Italy, the Netherlands and Poland, which had already decided not to send delegates at all. The other 5 countries which had already decided not to send delegates at all are Australia, Canada, Israel, New Zealand and the US.

So the formula for the bloc claiming that Ahmadinejad is 'racist' is: EU, plus Israel, plus the surviving 'Anglo-Saxon' or 'English-speaking' — i.e., white colonial — states: Australia & New Zealand, the USA & Canada. It seems then that this bloc is no more nor less than the white, western colonialist and imperialist nations, with Israel acting as their convenor, and that to be opposed to white, western colonialism and imperialism is the real definition of 'racism' in their eyes."

http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2009/04/mohammad-of-vancouver-on-the-antiahmadinejad-bloc-.html


And also...

What credibility is there in Geneva's all-white boycott?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 01:33 PM

Smears and taunts...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 01:35 PM

My, oh my.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 01:38 PM

Damn. There's the trouble. He's a closet Christian . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: robomatic
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 01:42 PM

Hey, we're all weekend posting. I appreciate ya'll's prompt responses. Hope you're having some good weather as we are! I'm at my usual South Anchortown coffee hangout. It's soon going to be too warm for me to bear being indoors and I'm going out and rake the volcanic ash out of my still sleeping lawn (along with last year's leaves, I'msolazy). So I'll be posting just a little more staccato like. I appreciate that people are arguing a bit more than mere abusing, just wanted to register my caffeinated well-being to you ALL.

Fondly,

robo

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 01:47 PM

Latte? PLEASE say no . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 01:49 PM

No comment.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 02:05 PM

I think I would add, about those who resort to smears and taunts in discussions like these, that while those tactics do nothing to actually further their arguments, I guess I can understand the appeal of that approach and the masturbatory sort of pleasure it obviously gives them.


It's a bit on the warm side here today (sunny and 82 F), so I've been coming in for breaks every now and then. As the shade takes more of the yard, I'll be taking fewer breaks.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 02:10 PM

Stop being so repetative. Make it taunts and smears for a change.

Now, back to coffee . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: robomatic
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 02:19 PM

No latte, can't afford paying an extra two bucks for an ounce of froth. (They put whipped cream on top for nothin'!)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 02:50 PM

Two bucks for that? Sheesh . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: number 6
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 03:01 PM

Beautiful weather here in Saint John too .... was up and out early this mornning ... stopped into Tim's and paid a $1.29 for a medium coffee ( 4 milks and 1 sugar) ... and I didn't leave a tip !

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 03:14 PM

LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: robomatic
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 03:20 PM

I shouldn't be giving this out, but at Kaladi's in Anchorage, it's only 1.25 for a double shot of espresso, and as I said above, call it a 'con pane' and they put the whipped cream on top for nothin' extra. Now that Costco does not carry bulk nutmeg, the cheap S O B's don't either, but they do make a good cup and they're friendly.

time to go out, now, my unlimited love to y'all (quoting Barry White from The Simpsons)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 03:25 PM

Man, nutmeg. Best spaghetti I ever had was with a good tomato sauce and then grate fresh nutmeg on it, add some hot peppers and WOW.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 01 May 09 - 05:09 AM

Carol,

The guardian article you posted on the subject of all the white countries walking out of an anti racism conference is very illuminating, and at the very least demonstrates an embarrassingly contemptable attitude by white europe towards the rest of the nations involved, regardless of the matter of Ahmedinejads views on Israel.

All the other non white, non Iranian and non Israeli countries must have felt really valued when all the important issues they wished to talk about were rendered meaningless in the blink of an eye.

And all the money that was spent hosting the event, presumably provided by taxpayers went the same way as the issues.

I'd love to know if the walk ouit was staged before or after the dinner.


Interesting how Europe acted en masse like that. Why were they so afraid of listening to someone express his political views.

Could it be blackmail? Surely not ...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 01 May 09 - 03:38 PM

According to what I've read, it was all planned and staged beforehand.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 01 May 09 - 04:26 PM

According to what I've read, it was all planned and staged beforehand.

The walkout was planned before the speech because Iranian officials distributed the text of Ahmedinejad's hatemongering speech well in advance.

CarolC, of course, is on the record as saying agreeing with his hatemongering in that speech (save for his Holocaust denials, which, BTW, he didn't do in that speech).

And just as most western countries either boycotted the conference or walked out in the face of Ahmedinejad's hatemongering, I'm walking out of a thread filled with her Ahmedinejadisms.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 01 May 09 - 04:59 PM

It wasn't a hatemongering speech at all. The hatemongers are the ones who are supporting the policies he was criticizing in that speech.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 01 May 09 - 05:02 PM

Latte anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 01 May 09 - 05:03 PM

The hatemongers are also the White/European supremacists who think that the White folks get to dictate policy to the rest of the world, like the ones who are spreading hate towards Iran so they can whip people up into a frenzy of hate to support their military aggression and hegemonic ambitions.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 01 May 09 - 05:19 PM

'Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad did not win friends among the Palestinian delegation at the United Nation's anti-racism conference in Geneva last week, even though he championed their cause on its opening day.

"He [Ahmadinejad] made from it a show and used it as an election campaign for his country," said Khraishi. [Palestinian rep.]

Although Ahmadinejad spoke of the "Zionist crimes of aggression, carnage and other brutalities" against the civilians in Gaza, the overall thrust of his speech, which called for the eradication of Zionism, did not fit within the goals and aims of the Palestinian delegation in Geneva. '


From the Jerusalem Post

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 01 May 09 - 05:31 PM

Ahmadinejad's no saint. But he's not the devil people are trying to make him out to be, either.

And by the way, the Palestinians were completely shut out of that conference, and were prevented from being able to present anything they had to say, while Israel was very well represented, and took every opportunity to promote its agenda. So Ahmadinejad, flawed as he was, was the only person who actually spoke on behalf of the Palestinians at that event.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 01 May 09 - 05:35 PM

From his speech.

"My presence in this conference indicates my respect for this important issue, and the essential issue of human rights and support for nations' rights against the evil phenomenon of racism and cooperation with you, the thinkers."

******************************************************

For those who support Ahmadinejad

Rights groups challenge Iran leader at racism meet
Apr 19, 2009

GENEVA (AFP) — Human rights groups on Sunday challenged President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad to eliminate severe discrimination in Iran, ahead of his arrival at a UN conference against racism and intolerance in Geneva.

The International Federation of Human Rights (FIDH), the Baha'i International Community (BIC) and the Iranian League for Human Rights (LDDHI) said Ahmadinejad must tackle discrimination against religious and ethnic minorities, women, and halt incitement to hatred.

"By coming to the Durban Review Conference, President Ahmadinejad signals a commitment to the conference's goals of eliminating all forms of discrimination and intolerance," said Diane Ala'i, the BIC's representative at the UN in Geneva.

"His first move on returning home, then, should be to address the severe discrimination and persecution that have flourished under his tenure," she added.

Ahmadinejad is the most prominent head of state scheduled to address the opening of the UN review conference on Monday, which is being boycotted by the United States, Israel, Canada, Australia and the Netherlands.

His virulent anti-Israel statements and comments casting doubt on the Holocaust have prompted fears that his speech could overshadow the primary aim of the conference, to take stock of racial discrimination, xenophobia and intolerance around the world.

The rights groups said religious discrimination was widespread in Iran, notably affecting Baha'is, Christians, Jews, Sufis, Sunni Muslims, and other minorities, through arbitrary arrests, intimidation and harassment.

They also accused Iranian government-controlled media of fomenting hatred against Bahai's, and warned that repression against activists belonging to ethnic minorities including the Kurds was "rising dramatically".

"Human rights have sharply deteriorated in Iran under the presidency of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. Discrimination against ethnic and religious minorities, as well as against women, are of grave concern," said Karim Lahidji of LDDHI.

The human rights groups called on governments taking part in the conference, as well as the media, to hold Ahmadinejad accountable for violations in Iran.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: robomatic
Date: 01 May 09 - 05:43 PM

The attempts to paint Israel into a corner are not helpful to the Palestinians in any case:

1) If you believe that Israel is earnest in its attempts at peace, then it's inaccurate, wrong and hurtful to the overall process to boycott Israel or portray her as a racist State.

2) If you believe that Israel is an outlaw state with an apartheid agenda towards the Palestinians than boycotting and demonstrating conveys the message to the Israelis that they have nothing to lose and if anything should accelerate this 'supposed' agenda.

The negotiations between the Israelis and the Palestinians that occurred toward the end of Clinton's second term were the last really direct contacts and Arafat simply blew off some real progress. Life has gone from hell to worse for the Palestinians and they and their leaders have been the major part of why.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 01 May 09 - 05:51 PM

A fair assessment could be presented as follows

Pot (Iranian administration) <--> Kettle (Israeli administration)

Or vice versa.

Both are arguably identifiable as governments that at worst have a racist approach to faces that don't fit - and at best as turning a blind eye towards such attitudes against minorities in their respective constituencies, which makes them complicit.

So such criticism is indeed rich coming from Ahmedinejad, but it is not inaccurate.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 01 May 09 - 06:09 PM

Whether or not Israel feels backed into a corner is irrelevant. As the Israeli soldiers in the Breaking the Silence organization have said, the only way to make any change in the behavior of the government of Israel towards the Palestinians is to change the perceptions of the voters in the US, because it is we who are bankrolling Israel's activities.

Arafat didn't blow anything off. He was still at the negotiating table after the Israelis left it.


Ahmadinejad's human rights record is no worse than those of the US and Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 01 May 09 - 06:12 PM

Because she says it, it is so.

Latte anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 01 May 09 - 06:23 PM

"Ahmadinejad's human rights record is no worse than those of the US and Israel."

And because it is no worse it is ok? Leopards/spots.

With your usual cherry-picking, you neglect to mention the human rights record of the terrorist organizations that 'support' the Palestinians. I'm sure it was just a minor oversight . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 01 May 09 - 06:27 PM

No, it's not ok. But it's not an excuse for us in the West to not do any better.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 01 May 09 - 06:30 PM

Someone suggested it is?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 01 May 09 - 06:30 PM

By the way, the cherry pickers who are defending the Israeli government also don't mention the many terrorists who populate that government, either. If Western countries didn't support the terrorists in that government, there wouldn't even be a state of Israel today.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 01 May 09 - 06:32 PM

Most definitely people are suggesting it is. They're saying that because of Ahmadinejad, all of the White countries had to boycott the racism conference. And by doing that, they are avoiding having the finger pointed at them as well, where it also belongs.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 01 May 09 - 06:32 PM

More of your hate. You use that as an excuse NOT to talk about the wrongs of terrorist activity against Israel. That shit don't fly, ma'am.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 01 May 09 - 08:10 PM

Hardly. If Israel and the other Western countries really gave a shit about what Ahmadinejad had to say, they wouldn't have guaranteed that he would have center stage in order to say it. They wouldn't have guaranteed that he would be the only head of state at the conference, thereby giving him the podium according to the protocols of those kinds of conferences. They did that in order to give them yet another excuse to whip up hatred towards Iran in an effort to create justifications for military aggression against that country.

On the other hand, I don't consider people defending themselves against occupation to be terrorist activity. And neither does international law. So what the governments of Israel and the US are calling terrorism is not terrorism under international law. I always condemn the killing of civilians, but what Hamas does is not terrorism according to international law, nor Hezbollah, for that matter.

The only hate being spouted on this thread is coming from the people who are helping the government of Israel with its apartheid, ethnic cleansing, and genocide against the Palestinians and its planned military attack on Iran, by trying to silence those who speak out against those things.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 01 May 09 - 08:21 PM

...and, as I said before, the very people who are always going on about terrorism against Israel are the first to try to shut people up when they try to talk about the terrorism that has been committed by the government of Israel and those who became the government of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 01 May 09 - 11:28 PM

Some excellent commentary on the Durban conference.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 02 May 09 - 05:45 AM

"I always condemn the killing of civilians, but what Hamas does is not terrorism according to international law, nor Hezbollah, for that matter." - CarolC

Bloody odd therefore that both organisations are listed and recognised by many countries and by the UN as being terrorist organisations.

And no CarolC you do not "always" condemn the killing of civilians specifically if they are Jewish/Israeli civilians killed by anybody purportedly championing the "Palestinian cause". To your mind the indescriminate rocket attacks on Israeli civilians are fully justified - thankfully everybody with more than a single brain-cell bimbling about in their heads know that they are not.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 02 May 09 - 10:19 AM

My record here in the Mudcat shows that I have always condemned the tactics used by Hamas and anyone else when they target people indiscriminately. It's right there for anyone to look up. Even right here in this thread.

However, while I condemn the use of rockets that don't discriminate between civilians and military, I nevertheless, don't condemn their right to fight occupation and genocide.

International law recognizes the right of everyone to resist occupation. So the countries that list Hamas and Hezbollah as terrorist organizations are doing so in contravention of international law.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 03 May 09 - 08:13 AM

Can you quote us this "International Law" that you seem to put so much faith in CarolC??

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 03 May 09 - 08:37 AM

Carol and Teribus,

This may help.

Right to self determination and implied right to resistance

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 03 May 09 - 12:47 PM

According to this, from the UN, it is Israel that is practicing terrorism, and it specifically recognizes what the Palestinians are doing as legitimate resistance...

http://www.i-p-o.org/GDT.HTM

"...we mention the ongoing struggle of the Palestinian people for their homeland in the face of Israeli and United States military and paramilitary policies throughout the entire eastern Mediterranean region...

...As repeatedly recognized by the United Nations General Assembly, peoples who are fighting against colonial domination and alien occupation and against racist regimes in the exercise of their right of self-determination have the right to use force to accomplish their objectives within the framework of international humanitarian law."


The UN recognizes such fighters as having the same legitimacy as any country's military, and it says they should be treated no differently than the military personnel of any government.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 03 May 09 - 05:03 PM

"The UN recognizes such fighters as having the same legitimacy as any country's military, and it says they should be treated no differently than the military personnel of any government."

I agree. It then means that 'soldiers' who kill civilians willingly deserve to be tried for that crime. That should apply to the Palestians, Hezbollah and Hamas, et.al., and NOT just Israel.

Nice to see there is at least SOME agreement.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 03 May 09 - 06:17 PM

Currently, the ONLY people who are NOT being punished for their violations of international law are the Israelis. Which has pretty much been my point all along. NOBODY has suggested that only Israel should be punished. At least I have never said that. However, I have yet to see anyone who has been making the kinds of arguments that we see in the above post call for the government of Israel to be sanctioned in any way for their many violations of international law, and any time people call for sanctioning of any sort against the government of Israel, people like the above poster respond with hostility.

So let's see who the hypocrites are. Show of hands... who thinks that the government of Israel should face the exact same consequences as groups like Hamas and Hezbollah for violations of international law? I say they should all be held to the exact same standard. Anyone else?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 03 May 09 - 06:20 PM

And of course, the first thing that would need to be done would be for Israel to be forced to end its illegal occupation of the West Bank, Gaza, East Jerusalem, and the Golan Heights, and to end the blockade of Gaza, all of which are in violation of international law.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 03 May 09 - 10:50 PM

Bullshit, above poster. Your absolute hatred of things Jewish and Israel in particular show you to be the hypocrite here.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 03 May 09 - 11:18 PM

When did you write to Hamas and request they stop the rocket attacks that caused the invasion a few months back? Or will the reply be, "They were just defending themselves." Keriste, talk about crap.

You want to use terms like that with me, they'll be coming back to you in spades. You have said you stand for human rights. Yeah, but not Jewish human rights, huh? You are beyond hypocritical. Start with two-faced and disingenuous and go from there.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 03 May 09 - 11:57 PM

Just as I thought. I note that the above poster is not willing to hold Israel to the same standards as those with whom Israel is in conflict.

As I've said before, Hamas is already being punished, along with the civilian population of Gaza, by the government of my own country. While Israel is not only not being punished, it is being actively supported by my government and my tax dollars. When was the last time the above poster has written to the government of the US to demand that Israel be held to the same standards as the Palestinians?

Never? Just as I thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 04 May 09 - 12:37 AM

Nice try, above poster.

Did you ever write to Hamas when they sent 7000 rockets into Israel over a five to six year period? Or YOUR government?

I thought not.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 04 May 09 - 12:41 AM

And by the way, it was Israel that began violating the ceasefire, the first day it went into effect (and seven times total in the first week), when it started shooting at farmers in Gaza who were trying to get to their land...

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3560972,00.html

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 04 May 09 - 12:43 AM

Writing to Hamas accomplishes nothing. I've never written to the government of Israel, either.

I have however, written to my own government and demanded that the Palestinians and Israelis be held to the same standard.

How many times has the poster with the ironic screen name demanded that both peoples be held to the same standard?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 04 May 09 - 12:50 AM

Why didn't you protest the rocket attacks, huh? WHY?

You, btw, have NO idea to whom I have or haven't written. While you were complaining that Israel was being heavy handed in Lebanon, I was writing back and forth with a Ministry in Israel telling THEM that. You did nothing. Yippee for you. SSDD with you, lady. You hate Israel and you sure seem not to give a shit when Israelis get killed. Maybe you're a great person, but you just don't seem that way.

As for my name on Mudcat, fuck you, Carol. It hasn't worked. Your own OCD with regard to terrorist groups--have you ever posted that you hate it when Israeli kids get blown up in suicide attacks?

The name I choose to use is not really your business. You want peace, it's easy. Stop slinging shit at me and I'll stop slinging it back.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 04 May 09 - 12:55 AM

This your play book?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 04 May 09 - 12:59 AM

Popped a boil there, did we?


Yes, it's true. While I was complaining here in the Mudcat that Israel was committing war crimes in Lebanon, I did not write to the Israeli government to complain about it. Nor did I write to Hezbollah about their rockets. I have never complained to any members of either side of the conflicts.

I did, however, condemn the killing of civilians by Hezbollah at the time, and I have condemned the killing of civilians by Hamas on many occasions, along with the killing of civilians by Israel.

I have stated that I demand that both sides be held to the same standards, including at least a few times right here in this thread.

The fact that the poster with the ironic screen name is refusing to demand that they both be held to the same standard shows that the only one between the two of us who is consumed with hate is the poster with the ironic screen name.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 04 May 09 - 01:00 AM

Yes, that's right. I hate Israel so much that I have devised the ultimate punishment for it. My evil scheme is to force them to be held to the same standard as everyone else!


Muahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 04 May 09 - 01:03 AM

( ...that'll show them!)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 May 09 - 05:43 AM

'One World' by Chris de Burgh

"I can feel it in my blood, I can hear it in my footsteps,
I can see it all around, that everywhere connections
Are breaking away, and people know that something must change, must change;

There are better men than I, who with courage and conviction
Are patrolling the lines, waking up the sleepers who will not decide,
And do not think there's anything wrong;

But we are all living here in this beautiful world, sharing
Sunrises every day, we may have different lives, but for all of us,
Here we will stay;

We're living in one world, sleeping in one world, dreaming
In one world, and no-one's going anywhere,
We're living in one world, working in one world, breathing in one world,
We're just the same as anyone;

I believe there is a God, but it doesn't mean that my God is greater
Than yours, it only means we all have the right to believe, 'cos nobody
Knows it for sure, for sure; if there's a Heaven or Hell, or a sweet Paradise,
Or a place where we all meet again, 'cos with minimal change
Everyone here is the same;

We're living in one world, sleeping in one world, dreaming
In one world, and no-one's going anywhere,
We're living in one world, working in one world, breathing in
One world, we're just the same as anyone,
We're living in one world, sleeping in one world, dreaming in one world,
And no-one's going anywhere;
We're living in one world, working in one world, breathing in one world,
We're just the same as anyone;

Listen to the voice of millions calling me and you,
Take good care of everywhere 'cos this is my home too,
Laughing in one world, crying in one world, hoping in one world,
Praying in one world, trying in one world, this is my home too,
One world, one world, one world, one world,
One world, one world, one world"

One World - The Video

Palestine and Israel are both wrong.   

No-one has the right any longer to wage war on anyone else.

What the fook are they fighting for anyway? A strip of land? "No-one *owns* the land that people walk upon" in the first place, for Godsake!

Until people begin to see themselves as 'people' and not as Israelis or Palestinians, we ain't going to get anywhere.

Israel has been beaten up for decades by bullies and thugs who want to see the country and her people annihilated. All she ever wanted was to live in peace, to be left alone in her own place, to grow and prosper and to have a peaceful place to raise her children, after the terrible things that happened in WWII. But others had other ideas.

Yasser Arafat did such terrible damage to his country, to the people of his country and to Israel, feeding the fires of hate behind his false smile, creating the suicide bombers whilst dining out at The White House....

The Palestinian adults who to this day still train children to kill, carry that on, breeding the next generation of haters, ensuring that the poor brain-washed children grow to carry on the fight..and the hate.

Hamas and Hezbollah in their bloodthirsty quest to annhilate Israel have added to it all in buckeloads.

There are people on both sides of this hell who know that they are all the same and they're doing all they can to spread that message, but until that message has been heard, and understood, by the armies of both sides, and they've put down their guns, refused to fire the rockets, this hell will continue.

It's time to put the flowers back into the guns...

WHY, as a species, the *same* species, are we so divided, so intent on killing our own?

I have never understood it, nor will I...ever. We are ALL the same. The Palestinian mother cries the same tears as the Israeli mother, both weep for children who will never grow up, who have their lives taken away or blown apart by adults of their own species, in the name of...*what*?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: bobad
Date: 04 May 09 - 07:33 AM

The "play book" referenced by Peace.......it's all so familiar.........where have I heard it before, word for word......hmmm?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 04 May 09 - 09:07 AM

CarolC
"while Israel was very well represented, and took every opportunity to promote its agenda."

"Ahmadinejad is the most prominent head of state scheduled to address the opening of the UN review conference on Monday, which is being boycotted by the United States, Israel, Canada, Australia and the Netherlands."



CarolC
"They're saying that because of Ahmadinejad, all of the White countries had to boycott the racism conference. And by doing that, they are avoiding having the finger pointed at them as well, where it also belongs."

So, Israel, with only the non-white countries represented, was "very well represented, and took every opportunity to promote its agenda"


Make up your mind, CaorlC. You can't claim both, and expect to be taken seriously.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 04 May 09 - 09:11 AM

CarolC:
"but what Hamas does is not terrorism according to international law, nor Hezbollah, for that matter."


According to international law, the intentional targeting of civilians(which is defined as terrorism) , and the random rocket firings( which is defined as terrorism) are both war crimes. Glad to know that such actions are OK.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 04 May 09 - 10:09 AM

1400

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 04 May 09 - 11:21 AM

Israel has been the aggressor in all but one of the wars it has participated in, and it currently is waging an illegal occupation of land that it has no right to under international law. Israel, after its creation, and the leaders of Israel prior to its creation, have committed numerous acts of terrorism since before its creation. Israel has not been beaten up by anyone for decades, but rather, it has been beating up a hell of a lot of other people for decades. It started its existence with an act of genocide and ethnic cleansing (even prior to having declared itself a state), and it has continued this genocide and ethnic cleansing to this very day. While Israel has suffered terrorist attacks against it, it is not the primary victim in the Middle East. It is the world's only remaining white supremacist colonial enterprise.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 04 May 09 - 11:30 AM

I find it interesting that the playbook referenced previously doesn't actually dispute the validity of any of the charges people are making against Israel. It only tries to smear people who say them. This is a standard hasbara practice that is designed to A. silence dissent, B. to use McCarthy era style tactics to punish and destroy the lives of people who criticize Israel, and C. to shift the focus away from Israel's behavior to the behavior of others.

These tactics have been very successful over the years, but they are becoming much less so now that more and more people can see right through them, and now understand that Palestinians are human beings, too, with the same rights as everyone else, and that standing up for those rights is not an act of hatred against anyone.

The reason Israel needs hasbara type tactics is because it is trying to defend the indefensible, and therefore it has no legitimate arguments. The only argument it has is to demonize those who criticize it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 04 May 09 - 11:39 AM

Israel was extremely well represented at Durban II by the hasbara brigades, who dominated and monopolized much of the conference. The Palestinians weren't even allowed to have any side events at that conference, and were not allowed to present any of their issues for discussion, so they were not represented at all.

If the intentional targeting of civilians (the practice of which is extremely well documented as being done by Israel) is defined as terrorism, then Israel is a terrorist state (as has already been shown in the document from the UN that I posted earlier).

Everyone who commits such acts is guilty of war crimes and should be brought before an international court. (This includes Hamas, Hezbollah, and the government of Israel.)

I see that I am still the only one in this discussion who thinks that everyone should be held to the same standards. Rather than answering my question asking who, besides me, thinks everyone should be held to the same standards, everyone has decided instead to either demonize me, or demonize the people Israel is victimizing.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 04 May 09 - 01:41 PM

On the issue of Hamas rockets being fired into Israel,

the reason why this is not a hot topic on this thread is that everyone agrees that it is wrong.

This is how that discussion has gone - is the use of rockets to target civilians wrong? yes.

Does anyone support the use of rockets by hamas against Israeli civilians? No.

Ok ... so anymore points of view on that subject?

Nope ...

So we all agree then ...

So that conversation is over.

Because nobody disagrees...

So that is why noone is saying anything about it ...

Because everyone has said everything and there are no issues outstanding amongst members of this forum on that topic ...

right ...

... so whats left on the agenda ... ?

Aha - looks like there is still a multitude of different opinions on the subject of Israeli policy.

There are some people who support it and some who disagree with it.

And they still disagree and are still discussing it.

So it hasn't finished.

So thats why it is still being discussed.

So thats why everyone is on about Israeli Government policy and not on about Hamas policy.

Cos its still a live conversation.

Well I'm glad I cleared that up for myself.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 04 May 09 - 01:48 PM

@04 May 09 - 01:41 PM...

Precisely

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 04 May 09 - 01:57 PM

I believe wholeheartedly that everyone should be judged by the same set of standards.

I would wholeheartedly condemn the Government of the USA if it were to give actual or tacit support to Hamas policies of aggression against civilians in Israel.

I wholeheartedly condemn the Government of the USA for giving actual support to Israeli government policies of agression against palestinian civilians in Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 May 09 - 02:30 PM

Lox and CarolC,

Two definitive posts. Lox expressed what I have been striving to formulate, better than I was able to manage.
A number of us have been slagged for NOT opposing the Hamas rockets when in fact we HAD, REPEATEDLY.

Carol, Same standards for all? YES, YES, YES! I wonder how many times it will need to be said before the ISRAELI apologists concur?

Oh, and to whom it may concern, a point of FACT. There is NO SUCH THING as a Jewish Nation.

The NATION is ISRAEL, which happens to be inhabited by a large proportion of Jewish citizens, of MANY different original Nationalities.

JUDAISM is a religious faith, and I think that the founding fathers of that faith would object rather strongly to being linked with the actions of the ISRAELI government, especially as they were part and parcel of the original population of PALESTINE, in which Jews, Arabs, and even to some extent Romans co-existed in a mainly peaceful way.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 04 May 09 - 04:11 PM

I concur with Don, Lox & Carole C.

My hope in Obama was that he would no longer support the US policy of backing & supporting Israel, he has not stood against the powers that be in this matter. Without peace between Israel & Palestine there will never be a settled Middle East.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 May 09 - 04:29 PM

"I see that I am still the only one in this discussion who thinks that everyone should be held to the same standards. Rather than answering my question asking who, besides me, thinks everyone should be held to the same standards, everyone has decided instead to either demonize me, or demonize the people Israel is victimizing. "


So, are you saying that Israel should have the same standards as Hezbollah then?

Are you saying that Israel should keep their rockets and explosives in the houses of innocent civilians and not give a shite when they get blown up, simply move any remaining ammunition to other houses where the next lot of people will be maimed and killed, all in the name of their Belief?

Are you saying that Israel should train its children to hate and kill, make child soldiers of them, train them to kill and get them to want to annihilate anyone they're programmed to?

Are you saying that the Israelis should send in suicide bombers to blow up Palestinian buses?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 04 May 09 - 05:21 PM

Lizzie you misunderstand.

Everyone should be judged according to the same standards.

Everyone should be accountable to the same set of standards.

Everyone should be expected to adhere to the same standards.

Everyone has the right to be treated according to the same standards.


This is not a partisan point of view, it is an ideological point of view.


It applies to ... everyone.


The debate has reached a point where all contributors have the choice to declare whether they agree to the principle of equal standards for all or not.

Carol is clearly not saying any of the things above that you have asked.

Only you have thought of those things.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 May 09 - 05:25 PM

"If the intentional targeting of civilians (the practice of which is extremely well documented as being done by Israel) is defined as terrorism, then Israel is a terrorist state (as has already been shown in the document from the UN that I posted earlier)."

'Scuse me??????

Are you talking about Israel targetting the rockets being fired at them from the houses of innocent civilians, because that's where the total bastards who call themselves Hezbollah have stored their weapons? And are you talking about the fact they stored them there knowing that Israel would have to bomb the houses to stop the rockets being fired, and therefore would undoubtedly end up killing the innocents, thus facing condemnation from some prats around the world who refuse to understand that the cowardly shites who stored the weapons there in the first place are the ones who should be put up against a wall and shot for helping to kill their own people?

We need to be clear about these things, you know.

Hamas and Hezbollah are without shame, without conscience, without guilt. All that matters is their sick and twisted beliefs and to hell with their own people.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 May 09 - 05:31 PM

""Are you saying that Israel should train its children to hate and kill, make child soldiers of them, train them to kill and get them to want to annihilate anyone they're programmed to?""

THEY ALREADY DO. THEY CALL IT THE ISRAEL DEFENCE FORCE!!

You know damn well Lizzie that we mean the exact opposite. You know that we advocate that the Israelis should be made to stop killing Palestinians, AND VICE VERSA.

At the moment all efforts are directed toward hamstringing the Palestinians, so the Israelis won't have to get out of breath chasing them down and killing them.

For Christ's sake, you don't even have to take OUR word for what the IDF are doing. Their own soldiers are coming forward and reporting the war crimes they have seen. Numbers of Germans were hanged after WW2, for the self same actions.

Sure Hamas is guilty too, but that cannot justify the illegal response, yet the US, and, UK governments continue to condemn Hamas, while selling arms to Israel.

That makes US just as guilty as them, and I don't want my government doing that IN MY NAME.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 May 09 - 05:33 PM

"Only you have thought of those things. "

Well, it's a good job *someone's* thought of them, lox! :0)

Yeesh!

Hamas and Hezbollah, it seems to me, have the standards of Cowardly, Unfeeling, Uncaring, Vindictive Bastards.

but hey, what do I know, eh?

"Everyone should be accountable to the same set of standards."

Exactly, and no way has Israel ever stored weapons amongst its people, nor blown up buses of innocent folk...nor..nor..nor....

Geez! If you're hit enough, by enough bullies, then eventually you start to fight back with a vengeance and sadly, so it seems to me, that's what Israel is now doing.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 04 May 09 - 05:38 PM

"You know damn well Lizzie that we mean the exact opposite. You know that we advocate that the Israelis should be made to stop killing Palestinians, AND VICE VERSA."

Never saw that posted before. But, who's the 'we' you mention, Don?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 04 May 09 - 05:41 PM

Indeed some Israelis are coming forth, as well they should. However, I won't hold my fucking breath waiting for Hezbollah or Hamas or any other of those assholes to come forth. Will YOU, Don?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 04 May 09 - 05:57 PM

ok

So we agree on two points.

1. Hezbollah and Hamas have no right to target Israeli civilians.

2. Everyone should be accountable to the same set of standards.


So what remains to be discussed?


well the only discussion left is that concerning the Israeli governments policy in Gaza.


Do they have the right to target civilians?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 04 May 09 - 05:58 PM

Of course not, Lox.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 04 May 09 - 06:01 PM

Nor do the sides have any right putting weapons in civilian areas--which we bloody well KNOW has been done by Israel's enemies. Weapons in mosques, schools, hospitals. So maybe that should be discussed, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 May 09 - 06:05 PM

"THEY ALREADY DO. THEY CALL IT THE ISRAEL DEFENCE FORCE!!

You know damn well Lizzie that we mean the exact opposite. You know that we advocate that the Israelis should be made to stop killing Palestinians, AND VICE VERSA."


The Israel Defence Force is, I think you'll find, not about young children. Nor is it about suicide bombers or martyrdom.

The IDF


I'm talking about Palestinian children of 9/10 and upwards who are taught that to be a martyr is everything. Take a look on youtube, there are loads of videos out there, loads of information about the child suicide bombers too.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 04 May 09 - 06:16 PM

Peace,

Again it is a short discussion.

Who thinks that Hamas are justified putting weapons in hospitals schools etc?

anyone?

no?

ok - so we're all agreed on that one too.

That was a quick discussion.


Back to the one where there are opposing views to be discussed ...

... who agrees with Israeli government policy in Gaza.

I don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 04 May 09 - 06:22 PM

Neither do I, Lox.

Now, try asking the pro-Hamas group their feelings. You will receive back garbled horseshit from what'serface and two thousand cut and pastes. Friggin' spare me.

I want s-f-b to actually, just once, condemn someone other than Israel. You see any hope of that ever happening? I think not. She spews hatred. And that's her contribution.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 04 May 09 - 06:25 PM

"Who thinks that Hamas are justified putting weapons in hospitals schools etc?

anyone?

no?"

Read her posts, Lox. Save the rhetoric, OK?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 May 09 - 06:29 PM

""I'm talking about Palestinian children of 9/10 and upwards who are taught that to be a martyr is everything. Take a look on youtube, there are loads of videos out there, loads of information about the child suicide bombers too.""


Don't be so naive Lizzie.

You don't need to put 9-10 year olds in danger when you have an overwhelming military superiority. You can leave them at home while you do your killing of women and children on somebody else's land.

If, however, you are on the side with home made rockets and obsolete sixty year old Russian rifles, giving 9 year old Yussef some firearms training and an AK47 may just keep him alive.

What do you think Momma and Poppa Israeli are teaching their kids about muslims.

Israeli kids learn to handle arms very young, and, well indoctrinated into the mindset of the defense force, they are ready to join in the "defence" of the promised land almost as soon as they are taller than the firearm that is always handy on any Israeli farm.

It's just a pity that Israel's "defence" invariably takes place outside the borders of that country. It is somehow always the case that the "aggressively retreating" neighbour gets beaten up by the "defensively advancing" guardians of Israeli sovereignty.

It is also a pity that the Western powers have so far failed to offer the IDF free spectacles, that they might be better able to distinguish armed men from children, and pregnant women.

Hezbollah and Hamas tactics ARE despicable, but I repeat, THAT DOES NOT JUSTIFY WAR CRIMES BY ISRAELIS.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 04 May 09 - 06:30 PM

No it does not, Don. However, it would be refreshing to see you say that now and then.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 04 May 09 - 06:35 PM

And you just did. Thank you, Don.

Lox, will there be a similar statement from you? With no apologetics for Hamas, Hezbollah, etc?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 04 May 09 - 07:18 PM

Peace, whats your problem?

Are you deliberately ignoring what I'm saying?

Ok - I'll say it again.

but in a new extra clear way.

I condemn Hamas and Hezbollah for using tactics that kill civilians and put the lives of civilians at risk.

So once again it is as clear as it can be that that point is not at issue.

I also Condemn the Israeli government and army for denying civilians in Gaza the freedom to trade with the outside world, the right to urgent medical attention and the freedom to make use of the few natural resources they have, and for responding to the crimes of hamas by murdering and maiming thousands of civilians including children and the old.

I believe that the Israeli governments stranglehold on basic paestinian human rights in Gaza has created the conditions under which violence has erupted and I am nauseated at the Israeli governments grossly disproportionate reaction to that violence.

That is my opinion.

Unlike my opinion on the subject of Hamas and Hezbollah, my view on Israeli government policy in Gaza doesn't represent the unanimous feeling of members of this website.

There are many who disagree with me.

Hence, we have alternative viewpoints to examine and discuss.

A discussion involving contrasting points of view is in my opinion infinitely more interesting than one where everyone has already formed the same conclusion.

I don't see any evidence of Carol defending the tactics of Hamas or Hezbollah.

I do see repeated condemnations of their tactics by her.

I don't see evidence of Hatred.

I do see serious differences of opinion between you and her.

But I don't infer anything about your character or hers from those differences.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 04 May 09 - 07:20 PM

Mischaracterizing what I said does not constitute an argument. It is a straw man. I didn't say that Israel and Hamas should have the same standards (although, personally, I can't see much difference between them). I said that the rest of the world should hold them to the same standard. I realize this might be a tricky difference for some people to understand, but it is, nevertheless, a very big one.

Israel may not keep their armaments in the houses of civilians, but they do like to use innocent civilians as target practice. This is documented fact. And they are doing it in the name of their belief, as I have shown in the link I posted about what the government Rabbis have been telling the soldiers. So I don't see a whole lot of difference there.

Israel does train its children to hate and kill, and they require them to become soldiers before they're old enough to have formed any kind of maturity and judgement and they train them to kill and get them to want to annihilate anyone they're programmed to. And they don't allow any conscientious objectors. So I don't see a hell of a lot of difference there.

Israelis don't need suicide bombers to blow up buses. They have drones that drop huge missiles on Palestinian apartment houses. Apparently Israelis don't like to be inconvenienced when they go about their business of slaughtering innocents.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 04 May 09 - 07:20 PM

Good, Lox. So let's you and I sign off, OK?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 04 May 09 - 07:22 PM

You minimize what you say all by yourself, lady.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 04 May 09 - 07:23 PM

When I say that Israel intentionally targets civilians, I am talking about the large percentage of civilians killed (many of them children), who were killed by a single sniper's bullet, for no reason other than because some pimply kid thought it would be fun, and because the Israeli government has incredibly loose rules of engagement. I have already posted the documentation for this right here in this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 04 May 09 - 07:29 PM

I don't know who this "pro-Hamas" group is that has been mentioned. Nobody on this thread has expressed a pro-Hamas stance. I have even said that I think Hamas should be brought before an international court for war crimes. I haven't seen any of the hasbara people on this thread being willing to hold Israel to that same standard, even though it has been very well documented that Israel has committed numerous war crimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 May 09 - 10:32 PM

The conflict in the Middle East makes it more clear with everyday that passes that capital is everything. The side that can buy the most sophisticated weapons will win, and when it's over, they will write the history.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: number 6
Date: 04 May 09 - 11:06 PM

War in itself is a crime against humanity.

The side that wins in a war does write history Rig ... and because of that they can never be accountable for the war crimes they themselves have committed.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 May 09 - 11:41 PM

Well, biLL, we agree again!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 04 May 09 - 11:56 PM

Maybe that will change.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 04 May 09 - 11:58 PM

(Not the part about war itself being a crime against humanity, but the other part.) At least that's what I've been working toward for a long time.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 05 May 09 - 12:51 AM

"I didn't say that Israel and Hamas should have the same standards (although, personally, I can't see much difference between them). I said that the rest of the world should hold them to the same standard. I realize this might be a tricky difference for some people to understand, but it is, nevertheless, a very big one." – CarolC

Now in all the to-ing and fro-ing on Hamas and Israeli actions CarolC is perfectly correct in what she says above. What is stated here on this forum doesn't amount to much. The plain fact of the matter is that the rest of the world does not hold the opposing sides in this conflict to the same standard openly and transparently. In discussion of this aspect that is where things get slightly skewed, whereas there is much approbation piled on Israel, the US and the UK, there is none piled on Iran, the old Iraq of Saddam Hussein, Libya in former years and Syria for their unwavering support for terrorist organizations intent on murdering Israeli citizens. There again Israel finds itself at a disadvantage in this as it is a recognized country with an elected government and a member state of the United Nations and is thus very easy to be held accountable. The President of Israel is an internationally known figure as are the Prime Minister, Defence Minister, etc, right the way down the line. Now go and examine the "other side" and everything becomes slightly murky and traceability and accountability goes straight out of the window. It is very difficult to hold secret organizations to account in the same manner as you can hold a democratically elected government to account

Lox also made some points and asked some questions:

"So we agree on two points.

1. Hezbollah and Hamas have no right to target Israeli civilians.

2. Everyone should be accountable to the same set of standards.


So what remains to be discussed?


well the only discussion left is that concerning the Israeli governments policy in Gaza.


Do they have the right to target civilians?"

On point 1 above Lox let's hear massed calls for Hamas to revise its Charter which still to this day calls for the destruction of Israel and the killing of all Jews in what it sees in "Palestine". If the Sheeba Farms is the only bone of contention left between Hezbollah and the Israelis (Hezbollah only fight Israel while Israel occupies Lebanese territory according to Hezbollah) then let's hear calls for that problem to be resolved by discussion, unfortunately the fly in the ointment here is of course that Syria also claim that small lump of land, but I cannot see Hezbollah fighting Syria over it, can you??

On point 2 I totally agree.

The point remaining, the Israeli Governments policy in Gaza, so what is the Israeli Governments policy in Gaza? Were Hamas to stop launching attacks from Gaza by themselves and others based in Gaza the border crossings would be opened. If Hamas and Palestine Authority officially recognize the right of Israel to exist and the rights of the citizens of Israel to live their lives in peace free from threat of attack then Palestinians would stop being targeted and killed. Only trouble is that this approach has never been attempted has it?? Because both sides have not been held accountable to the same standard.

Lox also asks the question: "Do they have the right to target civilians?" The "they" isn't defined, it could refer to the Israeli Government? Or the Israeli Armed Forces? Judging from what went before I take it to mean the Israeli Government. Well the situation facing the Israeli Government isn't as simple as that is it Lox. A fairer, more honest question, would be couched in the following terms if as you say everybody should be held to the same standards; "Does the Israeli Government have the right to target civilians while its own civilians are under attack from firing positions located illegally within centres of civilian population?"

And the answer to that question is yes they do have the right to self defence before all other considerations.

"I also Condemn the Israeli government and army for denying civilians in Gaza the freedom to trade with the outside world," – See above for the political moves that would guarantee the opening of those crossings, another important factor would be that the import of weapons and munitions by Hamas for attacks on Israel would have to stop.


"I also Condemn the Israeli government and army for denying civilians in Gaza the right to urgent medical attention" – The Israelis have never completely shut off medical or humanitarian supplies from Gaza to say that they have is a myth. During the last incursion it was Hamas who prevented Palestinians from accessing medical facilities set up by the Israelis.

"I believe that the Israeli governments stranglehold on basic palestinian human rights in Gaza has created the conditions under which violence has erupted and I am nauseated at the Israeli governments grossly disproportionate reaction to that violence.

That is my opinion."

The people who have always exercised a stranglehold on basic human rights of the "Palestinian" people (Please note Palestinian human rights are no different from anybody else's, even basic Israeli human rights) have been their political overlords who for 60 years have kept the Palestinian people in poverty and despair. Had those "leaders" accepted the UN two state solution offered in 1947 none of this would ever have happened and there would have been no displaced persons and the "Palestinians" would have more than they say they are fighting for now.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 05 May 09 - 01:03 AM

Approbation and actual sanctions and punishments are two entirely different things. Approbation in the absence of sanctions and punishments are pretty meaningless. Israel may receive some approbation (but never from any Western governments), but it has not been sanctioned or punished in any way, and is, in fact, receiving many billions of dollars of support for its war crimes from people like me who pay taxes in the US. Iran, Iraq under Saddam (and Saddam himself, who was hanged for war crimes), Libya, and Syria, have all been sanctioned and/or punished in various ways. The reason so many people are criticizing Israel so much is precisely because it is allowed to get away with so much without being sanctioned or punished in any way, and because this gives it the ability to do whatever the hell it wants with impunity, and with the backing of the largest military and weapons industry in the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 May 09 - 05:02 AM

"Don't be so naive Lizzie.

You don't need to put 9-10 year olds in danger when you have an overwhelming military superiority. You can leave them at home while you do your killing of women and children on somebody else's land."


The Israeli's built themselves a strong army to PROTECT their new country, hell, they needed to. I doubt they thought that all these decades down the line, they'd still be needing such an army, but such is that hatred against the Jewish people out there, that sadly, an army is still needed.

Don, take a look at the Youtube videos if you don't believe me. Read about the child suicide bombers, read how the Israeli Army was told to never fire into children and how Hamas and Hezbollah used the children to hide behind.

Read a book called 'Not Without My Daughter' and focus on the hatred the author found towards America, in Iran. Read how her own daughter was forced (by her Iranian father who'd kidnapped her) to go to a school where a special room was in place, with a US flag painted on the floor, and the little children had to spit on it every single day.

I do NOT believe that Israel brings its children up to hate. So many of the young Israelis want this all to stop. They no longer want war, they no longer want to see anyone killed or maimed, on either side...

I do believe that there are some Israeli soldiers, as there are in all armies, who've completely lost the plot though, who have become so de-sensitised that nothing makes any sense to them anymore. It's no excuse though.

The so called 'leaders' on both sides of this appalling situation need to be taken far out into the desert and left there...leaving the people of both sides to live their lives peacefully.


Warning: The film below is deeply distressing at times.

An Aid Worker talking about the use of Palestinian children as soldiers and suicide bombers

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 05 May 09 - 05:37 AM

Teribus,

I agree with you about Iran and I accept that the possible solutions to the problems of the middle east are contentious.

But Carols point remains very clear, unaffected, and unchallenged, that Israel is the only country involved in the conflict that has not had to face diplomatic consequences for its actions, with the result that it effectively has a mandate to behave how it pleases.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 05 May 09 - 11:37 AM

There are just as many young Palestinians (and not so young Palestinians) who want it to stop, too. Because the consequences suffered by the Palestinians are far, far greater (by orders of magnitude) than those suffered by the Israelis.

There are just as many YouTube videos showing Israeli hatred of Palestinians. Israeli soldiers regularly shoot at children. Israeli soldiers use Palestinian children as human shields. Israelis went and picnicked near the border with the Gaza strip while Gazans (women, children, old people, non-combatant men, along with Hamas fighters) were being bombed to smithereens, and they celebrated what they were watching, saying they wanted to see it with their own eyes. Young Israeli soldiers left piles of excrement in many of the places they occupied in Gaza during the incursion, and left graffiti on the walls saying "Death to all Arabs".

To only see the problems with the Palestinians and to ignore the same things done by Israelis, and to use this to suggest that Palestinians are inherently worse than Israelis is a manifestation of the same racism that characterizes Israeli treatment of the Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 05 May 09 - 11:59 AM

"that Israel is the only country involved in the conflict that has not had to face diplomatic consequences for its actions, with the result that it effectively has a mandate to behave how it pleases."

Diplomatic consequences, sanctions, embargoes you name it Israel and the west have had to put up with them from Arab nations. I have been in Norway when they have boycotted all Israeli produce at the behest of the leader of one of the political parties there. Where were you in 1973 when the Arabs used the oil weapon after having once again tried to drive the Jews into the sea and failed. Fortunately for us the Arabs need the oil consuming nations of the west just as much as we need them and their attempt to break us economically failed as well.

By all means give peace a chance but it is not Israel that has a constitution that demands the death of every Arab in Palestine. hamas has to change dramatically before it finds itself acceptable in the civilised world - Do that and all else follows.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 May 09 - 12:38 PM

"By all means give peace a chance but it is not Israel that has a constitution that demands the death of every Arab in Palestine. hamas has to change dramatically before it finds itself acceptable in the civilised world - Do that and all else follows. "


ABSOLUTELY spot on!

Carol?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 05 May 09 - 12:47 PM

The large military and economic powers in the world have not placed any sanctions on Israel, but they have placed all kinds of sanctions on Iran, Iraq (including invading and occupying that country), Libya, and Syria (and Hamas), while at least some of them have provided Israel with enormous amounts of assistance. And the US has been using its veto in the UN to block all help for the Palestinians.

It doesn't matter what Hamas' charter says, and what the government of Israel doesn't say. It's not necessary for the government of Israel to publish its intentions for all the world to see in order for it to carry out its agenda of removing all Palestinians from Palestine. What they do is what matters, and Israel has been committing genocide and ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians (including actually driving them into the sea) for decades, while Hamas hasn't got the ability to do anything of the sort.

There is no reason whatever for the countries of the West to not hold both sides to the exact same standards, and not doing so is a product of White supremacist colonialist attitudes on the part of the rich and powerful countries of the West.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 May 09 - 01:28 PM

"It doesn't matter what Hamas' charter says, and what the government of Israel doesn't say."



Actually, it does matter.

It matters so much, that you'd not believe HOW MUCH it matters.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 May 09 - 06:01 PM

""No it does not, Don. However, it would be refreshing to see you say that now and then.""

Better do a bit more reading then Bruce. This IS at least the tenth time I have said NEITHER SIDE IS MORALLY RIGHT.

I am STILL waiting for ONE Israeli apologist to admit that the IDF have done anything immoral, unethical, or criminal.

That is why this debate continues.

Hamas is wrong to fire rockets into Israel. Of that there is no doubt.

But, try to make the point that it is wrong for IDF soldiers to blow away two children on a roof, who were taking in washing, and a dozen or more posts will surely follow ranting about Hamas rockets.


Nobody wants to address the fact that heavily armed troops were afraid that the kids might harm them by throwing clothes pegs, SO THEY SHOT 'EM!!

Reported initially by an Israeli soldier who witnessed the event, and was sufficiently appalled to blow the whistle.

And that's just one case.

When this is over, would you like to place your bets on which side WILL be condemned for its crimes, and which side WILL not even be asked to account for the actions of its so-called DEFENCE force?

A CLUE!.............Western governments won't even ask the Israelis the question. That's why we are loathed by virtually the whole population of the Middle East region, with the single exception of.......YEP! You've guessed it, ISRAEL.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 May 09 - 06:13 PM

""Now go and examine the "other side" and everything becomes slightly murky and traceability and accountability goes straight out of the window. It is very difficult to hold secret organizations to account in the same manner as you can hold a democratically elected government to account""

Last I heard, Hamas WAS the elected, and recognised government of Palestine.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 05 May 09 - 06:47 PM

Anyone done a count of how many wars presently involve Islamic countries--that is, countries with Islamic leadership?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 05 May 09 - 06:49 PM

Hamas IS the elected government, as you say, Don. NOW, go read their Charter.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 05 May 09 - 06:57 PM

As a PS--since I have stopped reading ANYthing what'serface has to say, I hope that any (and I mean ANY) soldiers from which ever side of this or any other conflict face severe punishment for intentionally killing civilians. That also extends to kids carrying guns. The bullet doesn't care who pulled the trigger.

I would love to know how many 'soldiers' from Hamas or Hezbollah have been tried and found guilty for killing civilians. I'd bet it's one helluvalot fewer than than have been tried by Israel or the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 05 May 09 - 07:12 PM

Mosab Hassan Yousef

Lots of interesting stuff about this guy.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 05 May 09 - 08:16 PM

Actions are more important than words. Hamas has said they are willing to abide by a decision of the Palestinian people if they vote for a two state solution. Their actions in this regard are far more important than their words.

The government of Israel has long said that they support a two state solution, but their actions show that they are not willing to agree to such a solution. And now, of course, their words also show that they aren't willing to agree to it.

It doesn't matter what Hamas says or what Israel doesn't say if their actions are different than their words. What matters is what they do. Not what they say or don't say.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 05 May 09 - 08:21 PM

Very few Israeli soldiers have been tried for their crimes, and even fewer of them have been punished.

Hamas actually did punish people who fired rockets into Israel during the cease fire last year.

But I wouldn't expect a racist like the poster with the ironic screen name to know anything about what any Palestinians do except for the hasbara propaganda they rely on to help them spread their racist message. (I like this thing about the poster with the ironic screen name not reading my posts. It's so liberating.)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 05 May 09 - 08:23 PM

And now, to make this a musical thread, this, from Leonard Cohen...

QUESTIONS FOR SHOMRIM:


Written by Leonard Cohen   
Monday, 12 November 2007


And will my people build a new Dachau
And call it love,
Security,
Jewish culture
For dark-eyed children
Burning in the stars
Will all our songs screech
Like the maddened eagles of the night
Until Yiddish, Arabic, Hebrew, and Vietnamese
Are a thin thread of blood clawing up the side of
Unspeaking steel chambers
I know you, Chaverim
The lost young summer nights of our childhood
We spent on street corners looking for life
In our scanty drops of Marx and Borochov.
You taught me the Italian Symphony

And the New World
And gave a skit about blowing up Arab children.
You taught me many songs
But none so sad
As napalm falling slowly in the dark
You were our singing heroes in '48
Do you dare ask yourselves what you are now
We, you and I, were lovers once
As only wild nights of wrestling in golden snow
Can make one love
We hiked by moonlight
And you asked me to lead the Internationale
And now my son must die
For he's an Arab
And my mother, too, for she's a Jew
And you and I
Can only cry and wonder
Must Jewish people
Build our Dachaus, too?

-- Leonard Cohen, poem from 1970's

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 05 May 09 - 08:28 PM

'"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).'

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 05 May 09 - 08:29 PM

That is from the Hamas Charter--commentary thereon.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 05 May 09 - 08:34 PM

I see the poster with the ironic screen name has decided to read my posts after all.

As I said, it doesn't matter what the charter says if they agree to abide by the will of the Palestinian people if they vote for a two state solution. And they said they would. That's the only thing that really matters.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 05 May 09 - 08:36 PM

By the way, Hamas was not elected by a majority of Palestinian voters. Fatah had run two factions of its party in that election, so the votes were split three ways and not two ways. Hamas got less than fifty percent of the vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 05 May 09 - 09:13 PM

Mosab Hassan Yousef, 30, said that his decision to abandon his Muslim faith and denounce his father's organisation [Hamas] had exposed his family to persecution in his home town of Ramallah and endangered his own life.

But despite the cost, Mr Yousef told The Daily Telegraph that he is convinced that speaking out about the problems of Islam and the "evil" he witnessed back home would help to address the "messed-up situation" in the Middle East and one day bring about peace and enable him to return.

"I'm not afraid of them, especially as I know that I'm doing the right thing, and I don't see them as my enemies," he said. "I do think about this a lot. But what are they going to do? Are they going to kill me?

"If they want to kill me, let them do it. I'm not going to stop anyone. It's going to be my freedom.

"My soul's going to be free of my body, not flesh any more."

Mr Yousef, who is known as Joseph by friends at the Barabbas Road church in San Diego, California, arrived in America 18 months ago but only recently made "the biggest decision of my life" to go public with his conversion to draw attention to how the Palestinian leadership is "misleading" and exploiting its people.

"Palestinians look really ugly in front of everybody in the world and they are very, very good people ... they are misled, and their picture is very dark because of this leadership.

"They need some help, they need people to stop lying to them, and lying to the world."

Mr Yousef was raised as a Muslim by his politically powerful family. His father, Hassan Yousef, a highly respected sheikh born in the West Bank town of al-Ghaniya near Ramallah, is a founding member of Hamas, whose military wing has instigated dozens of suicide bombings and other attacks against Israel since it was formed in 1987.

Hamas now governs the Gaza strip after ousting the more moderate Palestinian Authority led by Mahmoud Abbas, whose administration now only controls the West Bank.

Mr Yousef said that the decision to leave the home he loves and his family including five brothers and two sisters had made life hard for them.

"They are definitely suffering because of what I've done," he said. "They are not a regular family, they are a very famous family, and Muslims around the world praise my family, praise my father. So when I came with a step like this, it was impossible to think about, it was crazy.

"I knew from the beginning my family would face an impossible situation. It wasn't their choice but they have had to carry it with me. It's difficult for my mother, she's crying all day long. Every time I talk to her, she's crying."

His mother, Salsabin, told The Daily Telegraph that she and her children were "in daily contact with Mosab" but she declined to comment further on his new life.

Mr Yousef said that his father, who has spent more than a decade in Israeli jails for his involvement with Hamas, was in prison when he "got the worst news in his life" - that his son had become a Christian and left Ramallah. "But at the same time he sent me a message of love.

"Everybody is asking him to disown me. You understand if he disowns me he will give terrorists a chance to kill me. "He loves me as a son and he believes that what I've done was something I believed in, but at the same time it's very difficult for him to understand and he won't be able to understand."

Many saw him as heir apparent to his father, who retains great influence both within Hamas and in Palestinian society, winning election to the Palestinian Legislative Council in January 2006 from his prison cell.

But Mr Yousef said that his questioning of Islam and Hamas began early. His father, a pragmatist who has even suggested Hamas would be willing to talk to Israel under certain conditions, would often accept his concerns, such as the targeting of civilians.

Mr Yousef said that his doubts about Islam and Hamas crystallised when he realised not all Hamas leaders were like his father, a moderate who he describes as "open-minded, very humble and honest".

Mr Yousef said that he was appalled by the brutality of the movement, including the suicide bombers seeking glory through jihad.

"Hamas, they are using civilians' lives, they are using children, they are using the suffering of people every day to achieve their goals. And this is what I hate," he said.

It was after a chance encounter nine years ago with a British missionary that Mr Yousef began exploring Christianity.

He found it "exciting", he said, and began secretly studying the Bible, struck by the central tenet "love your enemies".

Nevertheless he does not advocate the "collapse of Islam", but rather for people to acknowledge that after 1,400 years "it's not working any more".

He said: "It's not taking them anywhere. It's making them look ugly."

He hopes that Muslims will begin to question their religion and "fix it" by rejecting the parts that call for "killing others, cutting hands, cutting legs, torturing people and asking for destruction of entire civilisations".

He said that after he converted to Christianity, he decided he had to escape and "live my life away from violence because I couldn't coexist with that situation as a Christian."

"I was thinking, what is my responsibility now? To see people dying every day or to stand up and say, this is wrong, this is right and be strong about this? So I had to make this move."

He plans to write a memoir about his "transformation" that he hopes will inspire others and to found an international organisation to educate young people about Islam and preach a message of "forgiveness", the only way he thinks "the endless circle of violence" between Israelis and Palestinians can be broken.

"I know this take a longer time, but this is the right way to do it, to build a new generation, a new generation who understand how to forgive, how to love."

It is a vision his new church shares. In a posting on the Barabbas Road website entitled "Joseph's story", the most unlikely member of the congregation is described as "a miracle" who left a society steeped in "brutal and bloody warfare" and instead "turned to Jesus".

"He is most certainly the face of things to come; an Ambassador to those oppressed by Islam. He is passionate about liberating his brothers and sisters from the darkness of a false religion, and living the truth that Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Light."

Back in the West Bank, however, many are distressed about his move.

"It is upsetting not only to his community and to his family but to all Muslims," said Abdel-Jaber Fuqaha, an Islamist parliamentarian and friend of the family who described Mr Yousef as "a straightforward, observant Muslim".

"But the worst impact is on his family, and his father. This is a thing that is more unique to our Middle Eastern culture. It is the most difficult thing, to convert from one religion to another."

He suggested that Mr Yousef may have been pressured into conversion in exchange for financial help or permission to stay in the US, given his background - allegations Mr Yousef rejects.

"I didn't come to Christianity for money, I came to Christianity because this is the way we can live a better life," he said.

"I love my people. They have the right to live like any other nation on Earth. But at the same time, I want to help them [get] on the right track."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 05 May 09 - 09:42 PM

By the way, the government of Israel and the IDF leadership should be brought before an international court for war crimes, too, and not just the individual soldiers who commit them. The government and the IDF are responsible for creating the rules of engagement that allow these war crimes to be committed, and they don't do anything to stop them from happening. And we're not just talking about a few bad apples. These kinds of things are not an aberration - they are the norm.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST
Date: 05 May 09 - 11:58 PM

"By the way, the Hamas and the Hezbollah leadership should be brought before an international court for war crimes, too, and not just the individual soldiers who commit them. These organizations are responsible for creating the rules of engagement that allow these war crimes to be committed, and they don't do anything to stop them from happening. And we're not just talking about a few bad apples. These kinds of things are not an aberration - they are the norm."

Reads well two ways, huh?

Peace

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 May 09 - 12:19 AM

I have already said that I think Hamas should be brought before an international court for war crimes, so it won't work trying to get me in an argument about that.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 06 May 09 - 12:22 AM

So why don't you ever rant about Hamas?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 06 May 09 - 12:22 AM

Hamas as the Government of the area of Gaza is not universally recognised as the Government of the Palestinian people. It has, like the Taleban in Afghanistan before, been recognised by one or two countries, that being done to yank America's chain more than anything else. While the Taleban were never elected Hamas was and the reason given for not recognising them is their Charter which demands the destruction of a fully recognised member state of the United Nations (i.e. Israel) and the annihilation of her people. That by the bye Don is where the MORAL Right of the matter comes into play.

Take a good look at what the Palestinian Arabs say they are fighting for, what they seek as a solution. Note that this grouping does not include Hamas all they will ever promise Israel is a cycle of truce and conflict. You will discover Don that as a two state solution it amounts to less than they were offered by the UN in 1947.

Sixty-two years of needless conflict Don, a path elected by choice by the Arabs of Palestine, another facet of this problem where MORAL Right comes into play. Ultimately is must end, and while we all recognise this truth and chatter about who should do what, for the combatants the perspective is somewhat different, they are literally fighting for their very existence and if they cannot make peace then one side will die, and the Jews will not just quietly walk into the night again.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 May 09 - 12:23 AM

Let me rephrase...

I have already said that Hamas and Hezbollah should be brought before an international court for war crimes, so it won't work trying to get me in an argument about that. I await the above poster's statement that the government of Israel should be brought before an international court for war crimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 May 09 - 12:24 AM

Well, not the above poster, but the GUEST.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 May 09 - 12:27 AM

I don't rant about Hamas because, as another poster in this thread has said, when I condemn war crimes committed by Hamas, NOBODY DISAGREES WITH ME.

My criticisms of Israel are in response to the many justifications I see here in the Mudcat for Israel's continued subjugation, genocide, and ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 May 09 - 12:31 AM

And my posts on this subject are also for the purpose of correcting the propaganda, lies, distortions, and hatemongering that I see in such abundance here in the Mudcat on the subject of the Palestinians, Arabs, and Muslims.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 06 May 09 - 01:08 AM

I think the people in the Israeli government who ordered the deaths of civilians should be brought to trial for the crimes they ordered committed--the day after Hamas, Hezbollah and other leaders of 'these types of groups' are brought to trial for their crimes. Safe thing to say because we all know that THAT will never happen. This does not include the deaths of people who were in areas that hid weapons. That would be on Hamas' or Hezbollah's hook. They seem to like doing that. And you seem to like losing the plot along with your cool.

Do you really think you have corrected anything? Really? I know for fact you have driven a few Jewish Mudcatters away, but other than that, what do you think you have accomplished?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 May 09 - 01:34 AM

Well, I think a non-racist stance would be to say that both the government of Israel as well as Hamas and Hezbollah should all be prosecuted at the same time. But I don't expect the above poster to ever take such a stance.


Why should some Jewish Mudcatters' preferences take precedence over the preferences of other posters? Think of how hostile the environment here in the Mudcat is for Palestinians, Arabs, and Muslims. It's too bad that those people felt they had to leave, but that's not a good reason to allow lies and hatemongering to flourish here without being challenged.

What I try to accomplish here is to present the truth. People who can't handle that are the ones with the problem. That should not be a reason to silence people who are fighting for the rights of an oppressed people.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 06 May 09 - 01:42 AM

You're one of the most malevolent racists on Mudcat fer krisake. I said it the way I did because you know damned well NO ONE from Hamas or Hezbollah will EVER be prosecuted for war crimes. You think Israel doesn't know that?

SSDD.

Latte anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 May 09 - 01:45 AM

We were talking about our own opinions about who should be prosecuted. I would expect Hamas and Hezbollah to be prosecuted before I would ever expect anyone in the government of Israel to be prosecuted.

However, being the only one between the two of us who is not a racist, my opinion is that everyone should be held to the same standard, unlike the above poster who believes that some people are entitled to more rights than others.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 06 May 09 - 02:21 AM

Have just one and stay up allllll night.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 May 09 - 03:49 AM

"As I said, it doesn't matter what the charter says if they agree to abide by the will of the Palestinian people if they vote for a two state solution. And they said they would. That's the only thing that really matters. "

Oh, for heaven's sake!

So, let's go down this road then, shall we.

If the British Government brought out a charter saying that they'd not rest until all Muslims had been obliterated from the face of the earth, you're saying it wouldn't matter? It wouldn't matter, so long as they abided by what most of the British people wanted?

There would be an international outcry, as well you know.

Think on this.

A new Hamas Charter stating that their one aim is to find peace with Israel, to live with them as neighbours, to grow with them, to see each other as equals, to lay down the weapons, to breed peace where once they bred hate, and to apologise with every breath in their body for the hate and racism they've poured out over the Israeli people, would go an awful long way to bringing peace in the Middle East forever, particularly if that charter was taken up by others.

If you raise your children on hatred, then all you will get is a hateful world. There are many in the Islamic world who want that to happen, who encourage it to happen. There is much wrong with the Islamic world, the way they treat women, the way they treat each other, the way they regard non-islamic countries....and the sooner the rest of the world has the courage to stand up and say it out loud, rather than pussyfooting around in an effort to avoid being called racist, when it's the other way round entirely, the better the whole world will become.

Many Israelis are speaking out against what's happening, I would hope that many Palestinians are too. It's all complete madness, but when you have country run by people like Hamas who have an outlook like they do, well...you ain't gonna have peace, that's for sure.

Think on this...

Let's pretend I live next to door to you. On my bedroom wall I have the words, "I am going to obliterate you from this earth and I'll not rest until I've done it!" and you know those words are there because I've shown them to everyone, put it in the paper, been on TV, the whole caboodle...how would you feel?

Would you feel happy about that, purely because if anyone asked me, I'd say "Oh yes, but those are only WORDS. Heyyyyy...I'm really a fun-loving, all round, peace loving, humanity loving kind of gal, who's willing to comply with whatever anyone wants!"...and then, I go back to my homemade charter and write a few more words of hatred and annihilation about you...tapping on your wall each night, just to remind you that I was there..

YEESH!!

WORDS don't matter???????

Of COURSE they ********* do!!

Those words are read, known about, held close to the hearts of many Palestinians...and they're **abided** by as well.

Get real!!

Until the snivelling cowardly b*stards who run Hamas decide to re-write their charter, then nothing will change!

There is a huge amount that's wrong in the Islamic world, a huge amount. There is also much wrong in the non-islamic world too. ALL of it needs to be discussed openly.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 06 May 09 - 03:54 AM

"While the Taleban were never elected Hamas was and the reason given for not recognising them is their Charter which demands the destruction of a fully recognised member state of the United Nations (i.e. Israel) and the annihilation of her people. That by the bye Don is where the MORAL Right of the matter comes into play."

What makes you think Teribass that Israel's intent isn't the same????
Christ, by their actions it is identical to the words of Hamas & Hezbollah. All should be tried in the world court for 'Crimes Against Humanity' & Isreal should have an added charge of "Attempted Genocide" put against them with the US in the same court because of our backing of them. They have all gone way beyond, except that the Israeli population has not suffer any all attcak that could be considered attempted "Genocide" even if some have verbly professed that disire where as Israel has not 'officially' verbally stated this but by their actions this is exactlly what they are attempting. And they that suffered this same fate just a few short generations ago. "LEST THEY FORGET"
Shame to them & their their supporters

As for the training of children. I was one of those children who was being cultivated for & by the US. And you think it's just these backwards, two bit, third world nations that train kids for war & hate. The school I attened is still enrolling & has a history going back better than 200 yrs. http://www.vfmac.edu/camp/index.html

When I was 13-14 I was sent to this military training school to keep me out of trouble. Great, all I needed at the time was the ruduments of hand to hand combat training & the knowledge & trianing in firearms. I was being taught while at school the military use of a 305 enfielf sniper rifle & the field stripping of automatic weapons, one in peticular, a 50 cal. machine gun, target practice with a 22. I attended Valley Forge Military Acadamy at Valley Forge, Pa, right here in the US. They take kids in starting at the ages of 6 for their summer camp program & starting in prep school at the grade of 7 for thier program (that's what I was enrolled in).
At the time the Russians & the Chinesse were our emeny's that were to be focused on.

They taught me well. When they taught me just enough I escaped. I was later caught in downtown Phily & brought back. The two fellows I escaped with were also caught. The first to get caught never made it past the high fences we had to climb in the darkness before the alam & spotlights came on. He was put into hot & cold running showers dressed in a just what a sailor would call as the top only only of their foul weather gear. By the time myself & the other escapee got caught it was by the city Police. We couldn't be treated in the same fashion. We were shamed & I preferred to be drummed out, the other guys stayed. I believe they both died as young junkies.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 06 May 09 - 03:58 AM

Wow, I can't believe I haven't thought of that part of my life in yrs, I can't even remember how long. I don't think I've ever told my even my wife or kids either. I'll have to check with them & let them know if they don't.

Of course I may try & forget about this every time I remember it & only think I haven't thought of this in such a long time

Funny, the mind is a tricky thing to try to not use

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 May 09 - 04:12 AM

""By all means give peace a chance but it is not Israel that has a constitution that demands the death of every Arab in Palestine. hamas has to change dramatically before it finds itself acceptable in the civilised world - Do that and all else follows.""

So peace in the schoolyard can only be countenanced when the VICTIM lies down and allows the BULLY to kick him, at which point the BULLY will magnanimously withdraw to the accolade of all his supporters, while the VICTIM crawls off to the doctor's surgery for treatment.

VERY EQUITABLE! And I bet the Israelis would love it.

Well I supervised a playground with 300 kids for over fifteen years, and my take on ending a playground fight is this. YOU GRAB BOTH OF THEM, PULL THEM APART, AND SEND BOTH OF THEM TO THE HEADMASTER FOR PUNISHMENT!!!

That is how it should be dealt with, and by so doing you deprive the BULLY of the status he would gain among other thugs, by being allowed to claim a WIN.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 May 09 - 04:27 AM

""Sixty-two years of needless conflict Don, a path elected by choice by the Arabs of Palestine, another facet of this problem where MORAL Right comes into play.""

NO! 62 years of needless conflict Teribus, a path elected mainly by the British government when they took over a sovereign state, and introduced many thousands of foreigners, without so much as a by-your-leave, and to add insult to injury, put the newcomers in control.

You would scream loud and long if that happened in YOUR country, as would I.

The State of Israel is the living expression of the shame of those who did nothing to prevent, or alleviate the suffering inflicted on the Jews. That does not alter the fact that those Jews were rightly citizens of various European countries, while the muslims who are so unpopular here were and are rightfully citizens of Palestine.


I don't really feel particularly surprised that the Palestinians are less than overjoyed at being summarily dispossessed of half their country, and the more fertile, productive, half at that.

It seems that Richard the Lionheart's crusades are still in progress

Don T..

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 06 May 09 - 04:31 AM

I'm The Bully
(words & music by Barry Finn)

CHORUS:
I'm the bully, you're my victim
I need the practice, you need the pain
I'm the bully, you're my victim
I've got the passion to drive you insane

Oh how I love to, stalk the weakling
And the outcast and the lame
I'm on prowl for someone different
Some unfit prey to be my game

Chorus

A shove on the stairs, when none are watching
A whisper of terror that none will hear
I can eyeball you at a hundred paces,
And strike with fear year after year

Chorus

I'll hound you from the crowed schoolyards
I'll pursue you in the public parks
You'll have no friends & no companions
You'll be a wretch with a broken heart

Chorus

You can cry for help & beg for mercy
And tell the world just what I've done
You can pull a knife or pull the trigger
You're on my turf, in the end I've won.

Chorus

The only way you'll ever beat me
Is to know the coward beasts for who they are
Stand up and ignore and expose me
Trapped in my den caged behind bars


Copyright 2000

Guess who's the bully & guess who the victim?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Riginslinger
Date: 06 May 09 - 06:52 AM

"It seems that Richard the Lionheart's crusades are still in progress..."

             They are in fact. If we could only get rid of religion, none of this would be happening.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 May 09 - 09:11 AM

CarolC:
"And they said they would. That's the only thing that really matters."

CarolC:
"Actions are more important than words. "




WORDS: " Hamas has said they are willing to abide by a decision of the Palestinian people if they vote for a two state solution. Their actions in this regard are far more important than their words."

I agree with CarolC. Their words are nowhere near as important as their actions.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 May 09 - 09:20 AM

And my posts on this subject are also for the purpose of correcting the propaganda, lies, distortions, and hatemongering that I see in such abundance here in the Mudcat on the subject of the Israelis and Jews.

What about the ARAB PALESTINIAN Homeland of TransJordan, established in 1923 of the 77% of the Mandate Palestine forbidden to Jewish settlement against Mandate law)? What about the 820,000 Arab Jews (versus the 640,000 Arab Moslim Palestinians) driven from their homes?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 May 09 - 09:44 AM

"I don't really feel particularly surprised that the Palestinians are less than overjoyed at being summarily dispossessed of half their country, and the more fertile, productive, half at that."


Not true- the West bank is the more fertile portion, and that does not include the 77% of the Mandate Palestine territory reserved esclusively for the Moslims as THEIR homeland in 1923.

"a path elected mainly by the British government when they took over a sovereign state, and introduced many thousands of foreigners, without so much as a by-your-leave, and to add insult to injury, put the newcomers in control."

Look at the Jewish population of Palestine under the Ottomans: Does the territory of Israel reflect even that percentage of the Mandate Palestine total territory?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 06 May 09 - 11:38 AM

"NO! 62 years of needless conflict Teribus, a path elected mainly by the British government when they took over a sovereign state, and introduced many thousands of foreigners, without so much as a by-your-leave, and to add insult to injury, put the newcomers in control." - Don

OK Don can you tell me what sovereign state the British Government took over and did this to?? If you are talking about Palestine then Don I would advise you to go away and do a bit of reading because if you are talking about Palestine you are talking out your arse.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 May 09 - 11:54 AM

This is a question of indigenous people being subjected to genocide, ethnic cleansing, and subjugation at the hands of a foreign occupying power. This was even the case back when Britain was telling the Palestinians what to do. The Palestinians have every right to hate the powers that occupy and commit genocide and ethnic cleansing on them. They are not in any way obligated to submit to anything that is imposed on them by any occupying power, neither the British prior to the establishment of the state of Israel, nor the Israelis.

It is the responsibility of the aggressors (in this case Israel) to show the people they have victimized and oppressed for more than sixty years that they are willing to change. Hamas has a right to not submit to Israeli subjugation. When Israel shows by its actions, that it is willing to let the Palestinians remain in their place of origin, and undo the more than sixty decades of showing them through their actions that they intend to wipe the Palestinians off the face of the map, that is when I would expect Hamas to change its charter. Not before.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 May 09 - 12:04 PM

Shit, did the Jews under the Roman occupation love the Romans, or did they hate them? How about in Egypt? Did the Jews living in Egypt under the Pharaoh not hate their oppressors? Hell, many Jews still hate the Roman and Egyptian empires to this very day! How do Jews feel about the Tzars and the Cossacks? How about the Poles?

This is what I am talking about when I say that people who expect the Palestinians to behave differently than they are willing to behave themselves are racists. They see the world as belonging to them and everyone else just has to suck it up.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 May 09 - 12:15 PM

Here's another example of Israel holding itself to a different standard than everyone else (and Israel being held to a different standard by the Western powers, and fuck what all of those racially inferior brown skinned people want or need)...

http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2009/05/egypt-offmessage-on-iranian-nukes.html#more


Egypt insists on talking about Israeli nukes

Bruce Wolman writes:

Speakers at the AIPAC policy conference regularly said that some Arab nations are on the same page with Israel in considering the Iranian nuclear program the biggest threat to regional stability, but the Egyptian Foreign Ministry articulated a different message yesterday.

According to the Jerusalem Post, Ministry spokesman Hossam Zaki said that Western policies aimed at "pressuring Iran to give up its nuclear program will fail because they disregard Israeli nuclear capabilities." More critically, Egypt called the Israeli nukes "the first and greatest threat to security in the region."

Needless to say, Israel did not take the statement kindly. Yigal Palmor, an Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman rejected the Egyptian characterization, adding

    If he can quote at least one occasion in which Israel has threatened any of its neighbors with the alleged nuclear weapon, then his statements would gain him credibility. Unless he produces evidence to support his claims, these kinds of remarks are completely out of line.

Does Israel really want us to go there? According to globalsecurity.org, hardly a disarmament web site:

    The total Israeli nuclear stockpile consists of several hundred weapons of various types, including boosted fission and enhanced radiation weapons ("neutron bombs"), as well as nuclear artillery shells. Strategically, Israel uses its long-range missiles and nuclear-capable aircraft (and, some say, submarines with nuclear-armed cruise missiles) to deter both conventional and unconventional attacks, or to launch "the Samson Option", an all-out attack against an adversary should defenses fail and population centers be threatened. In addition, despite Israel's insistence that it "will not be the first to introduce nuclear weapons into the Middle East," these systems represent an effective preemptive strike force. At the same time, Israel deploys tactical systems designed to rapidly reduce an invading force. Following the 1973 war, Israel fielded at least three batteries of atomic-capable self-propelled 175mm cannons equipped with a total of no less than 108 warheads, and placed atomic land mines in the Golan Heights during the early 1980s.

    Nuclear weapons need not be detonated to be used as weapons. Early in the 1973 war, Israel went on a nuclear alert, partly in the knowledge that it would be detected by the United States and the Soviet Union. The Soviets, Israel assumed, would restrain their Arab allies while the Americans would speed up resupply efforts. While the USSR did inform Egypt that Israel had armed three nuclear weapons, the extent to which Israel's nuclear alert affected the timing of Washington's subsequent decision to rearm Israel is not clear.

Since the intelligence services of Israel's neighbors can search online just as easily as we can, a reasonable conclusion for them to draw is that Israel's ideas about tactical nuclear weapons in the region represent a real threat.

Zaki announced that Egypt "sought to realize the aims of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty to guarantee the security of all states, whereas possession of nuclear weapons by some countries disrupted the balance of power and encouraged other nations to address this imbalance by seeking to acquire nuclear weapons."

At the AIPAC conference an optimistic Jane Harman "hopefully" pointed out the conflicts Egypt was having with Hezbollah and Iran. But only a few hours earlier Egypt had "called on the international community to justify and indiscriminately apply the Non-Proliferation Treaty that requires states to comply with its provisions, and asked it to refrain from the adoption of double standards in pressuring states to abandon their programs."

An Egyptian official directly told the Jerusalem Post that Egypt preferred Israel to pursue diplomacy rather than a military option in confronting Iran's nuclear program.

And lest anyone regard the Foreign Ministry briefing as pro forma, the Egyptian daily Al-Ahram reported on Sunday that President Hosni Mubarak told Philippine President Gloria Macapagal-Arroyo in a meeting that "Egypt opposed any proliferation in the region and that efforts aimed at shedding light on the Iranian nuclear program must be accompanied by parallel efforts to deal with the Israeli program."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 May 09 - 12:52 PM

so, CarolC, you will hold Israel to a treaty it did not sign or benefit from ( the MPT) but allow Iran to violate it after having signed and gotten the benefits????


Israel developed it's nuclear weapons BEFORE the NPT- If anything, Israel should be listed as one of the nuclear powers, which under the NPT have the right to keep their weapons ( although encouraged to reduce the number).

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 May 09 - 01:02 PM

I would expect Israel to sign it, and then uphold it. For Israel and the Western powers to expect other countries in the Middle East to not have nuclear weapons, while supporting Israel's possession of them, rather than applying equal pressure to Israel to sign the treaty and eliminate their weapons, is a double standard, and is racist.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 09 - 02:04 PM

From yesterdays Irish Times:
A new low - or leftie propaganda?
Jim Carroll

GAZA PATIENTS BEING INTERROGATED SAY MEDICS
RORY MCCARTHY
in Jerusalem

AN ISRAELI medical human rights group said yesterday that an increasing number of Palestinian patients from Gaza were being interrogated by Israeli security services before being allowed to leave the strip for treatment.
Physicians for Human Rights-Israel said at least 438 patients had been summoned for interrogation by the Shabak, the Israeli general security service, at the Erez crossing out of Gaza between January 2008 and March this year.
It took evidence from several patients and found they were "forced to provide information as a precondition to exit Gaza for medical care".
The group said the ratio of applicants being interrogated rose from 1.45 per cent in January last year to 17 per cent in January this year.
Their research also suggested the number of interrogations increased sharply from the begin¬ning of this year, after Israel's three-week war in Gaza.
One unnamed patient, who had been referred for orthopaedic treatment to a hospital in east Jeru¬salem, told the group that, as he was trying to leave Gaza, he was asked to give information on the people in his neighbourhood and was asked if he knew any Hamas members.
When he refused to give any information, he said his interro¬gator replied: "I understand that you don't want to answer me and that you don't want to work with us, so go back to Gaza."
Another patient, who was trying to reach a hospital in east Jerusalem, said he was asked: "If you tell me which meubers of your family belong to the Hamas and which to the Islamic Jihad, I'll let you leave Gaza or the hospital." When he refused, he was told he would be sent back to Gaza.
The group said that patients were photographed by the security services holding a card with their name and identity card number on it, sometimes by coercion.
Others described being insulted during the questioning and being locked up at the crossing, some¬times for several hours without explanation.
Physicians for Human Rights said it took on average six to eight hours for each patient to cross. The group said it believed the Israeli security services were vio¬lating international laws on torture and coercion.
"PHR-Israel reiterates its claim that the way in which the GSS [general security servicc| is exploiting patients' medical condi¬tions by exerting pressure on them, be it overt or hidden, constitutes coercion prohibited under the fourth Geneva convention," it said.
"The exacerbation of the situa¬tion is the outcome of failure of i public bodies in Israel to take effec¬tive steps to restrain the GSS."
It was to present its findings to the UN Committee Against Torture in Geneva.
Mark Regev, a spokesman for the Israeli government, rejected the allegations.        
He said: "The idea that there is ! a conditionality that people who come into Israel for medical treat¬ment must provide intelligence co-operation is simply untrue."
Mr Regev said 13,000 Palestinians from Gaza were allowed into Israel last year for medical treatment and said they had to go through "legitimate" security checks.- (Guardian service)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 06 May 09 - 03:36 PM

"YOU GRAB BOTH OF THEM, PULL THEM APART, AND SEND BOTH OF THEM TO THE HEADMASTER FOR PUNISHMENT!!!"

Absolutely. When's the last time anyone from Hamas or Hezbollah were grabbed and taken to the headmaster? Seems a certain lady wants only Israelis taken there.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 06 May 09 - 03:54 PM

The Latest from / about Hamas - for whatever it's worth

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 06 May 09 - 03:55 PM

Now Barry Finn takes something I said that is factual and can be easily verified:

"While the Taleban were never elected Hamas was and the reason given for not recognizing them is their Charter which demands the destruction of a fully recognized member state of the United Nations (i.e. Israel) and the annihilation of her people. That by the bye Don is where the MORAL Right of the matter comes into play."

i.e. Hamas' Charter does undeniably call for the destruction of Israel and the annihilation of her people and that is why Hamas as a government is not recognized by the UN and the majority of the nations of the world. And he replaces that with his own highly subjective opinion and attempts to present it as being of equal weight:

"What makes you think Teribass that Israel's intent isn't the same????
Christ, by their actions it is identical to the words of Hamas & Hezbollah."

Well then Baz it doesn't work that way does it because everything must stand up to critical analysis. Shall we take a run through it then?? To make it easy we'll skip the first twenty odd years of the Palestinian Mandate Period where the Jews were repeatedly attacked dispossessed and murdered by Palestinian Arabs, attacks that CarolC conveniently denies ever happened. Unfortunately for CarolC they did and they are extremely well documented. Let's take the events of last Christmas, the last Israeli incursion into Gaza.

OK Baz your contention is that Israel demands the destruction of Gaza and the West Bank and the annihilation of the Palestinians, but this is not written anywhere or spoken of – Rather unfortunate for your case that, because the Hamas declaration is there for everybody to read and there are loads of "You Tube" clips of Arab "leaders" spouting about killing Jews and destroying Israel.

Anyway Baz back to the Israelis. The question must be asked have they got the kit to do the job? And the answer to that Baz is a resounding yes, they have all the tools they need and more.

Have they got the necessary training and ability Baz to destroy Gaza and the West Bank and annihilate the people? Once again, I'd have to say yes.

So come on Baz, how did this well equipped, well trained, capable killing machine that is the IDF perform in Gaza over Christmas then. From the 27th December 2008 until the 21st January 2009 they killed between 1285 and 1117 people.

The population of Gaza at the start Baza was around 1,400,000 people. So for 26 days the most powerful army, navy and air force in the region pummelled the Palestinian enclave of Gaza and succeeded in killing 0.09% of the population they have sworn to annihilate. Almost a whole of 0.1% Barry!!!! Were they having a series of off-days?? Feeling liverish?? Not quite "into it" at that time of the year?? I mean come on Barry f**ckin' ell 26 days going at it hammer and tongs F-16's, laser guided bombs, white phosphorus, tanks and heavy artillery, throwing the whole bloody "ish" at it and all they can succeed in annihilating is not even 0.1% of the population – Not too good for your argument is it, they should have done a lot better than that shouldn't they?? Apart from which the West Bank wasn't even touched!!!

Of course Barry this lack of performance could be put down to one of two other possible reasons considering how good the IDF is:

1.        The Palestinians in Gaza are all World "Hide-And-Seek" Champions and the IDF unfortunately attacked during a practice session

OR

2.        There is no desire whatsoever on the part of the Israel Government, the Israeli Defence Force, or the Israeli people, to annihilate anybody.

Now being a logical sort of person and going through all that I'll put my money on the latter explanation being the truth. Now come on Baza you convince me otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 06 May 09 - 04:04 PM

The Hamas offer (linked to by Nickhere) pretty much describes why Israel will see NO reason to seek peace. Hell, "The Protocols" were discredited by scholars a century ago. Anti-Jews still quote it today.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 06 May 09 - 04:13 PM

Sorry Teribus, but that sounds like it could be applied both ways. I have heard a lot about the 8,000 rockets fired by various militant groups (including Hamas) into Israel from Gaza. It has been proposed that this is proof of their so-called intent to 'wipe Israel off the map'. Yet the casualties in all those rocket attacks were literally a handful of Israelis.

So, were they too playing hide and seek? I gather they were huddling terrified in bomb shelters most of that time, which no person should have to do in this day and age. Or perhaps the militants have 'no desire to annihilate anyone'?

A lot has been said (including by you) about why both these things are bad and wrong, and I agree with you. But do you not have the humanity to apply the same standards to Israel's neighbours? If more Palestinians weren't killed it was probably because they too, were huddled terrified wherever they could find shelter. Yet around one a half thousand died over a short period which is one and a half thousand too many.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 06 May 09 - 04:16 PM

Yes Peace, but it seems significant to me also that Hamas will accept a return to 1967 borders. This to me indicates their position is not as extreme as might be thought, and that Hamas have a bargaining point.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 May 09 - 04:30 PM

"applying equal pressure to Israel to sign the treaty and eliminate their weapons"


Sorry, those powers that HAVE nuclear weapons WHEN THEY SIGN are NOT required to eliminate them.


So, you are insistying that Israel do MORE than any other nation????

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 06 May 09 - 04:35 PM

"I have heard a lot about the 8,000 rockets fired by various militant groups (including Hamas) into Israel from Gaza. It has been proposed that this is proof of their so-called intent to 'wipe Israel off the map'. Yet the casualties in all those rocket attacks were literally a handful of Israelis.

So, were they too playing hide and seek? I gather they were huddling terrified in bomb shelters most of that time, which no person should have to do in this day and age. Or perhaps the militants have 'no desire to annihilate anyone'?" - Nickhere

The lack of Israeli casualties is incidental what must be taken into account fully is the intent of those firing the rockets. In so doing remember that the rockets are indiscriminately targeted at Israeli civilian centres of population.

Yes when the rockets are fired the Israelis in the towns targeted would be huddled in bomb shelters. The observation towers, the battle-field projectile detection radar, warning systems and the shelters were provided for the populations of those towns by the Israeli Government. What measures have Hamas taken to protect its citizens Nick?? I mean they do know that the Israelis will fire back at locations from where rocket attacks are launched against its citizens, that's self defence.

The declared intent on the part of Hamas to destroy Israel and annihilate its population is plainly written for all to see in black and white. They themselves do not deny it, why those who espouse the cause of the Palestinians cannot accept this fact I do not know.

That declaration contained within the Hamas Charter is wrong, totally unacceptable and cannot be defended by anyone, therefore Hamas must change it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 May 09 - 04:37 PM

Nick,

"it seems significant to me also that Hamas will accept a return to 1967 borders"

What about the 1923 borders, when the ARAB MOSLIM homeland was carved off Mandate Palestine, taking 77% of the entire mandate territory, and Jews were prohibited from living there?? How many times do the Arabs need to be given "their own country"?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 May 09 - 04:39 PM

oh, 1500.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 May 09 - 05:20 PM

Hamas Charter

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 06 May 09 - 05:36 PM

"Absolutely. When's the last time anyone from Hamas or Hezbollah were grabbed and taken to the headmaster? Seems a certain lady wants only Israelis taken there."

Peace,

Your opinion is as valid as anyone elses.

But compare your assertion above to these quotes from carols posts.

"the government of Israel as well as Hamas and Hezbollah should all be prosecuted at the same time"

"I have already said that Hamas and Hezbollah should be brought before an international court for war crimes"

and

"Nobody on this thread has expressed a pro-Hamas stance. I have even said that I think Hamas should be brought before an international court for war crimes."

And if you keep looking back you'll find the same approach repeated again and again.

There is nobody on this site who thinks Hamas or Hezbollah policy is acceptable.

So there is no discussion happening.

There are different views on Israeli policy.

So thats why that discussion is still alive.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 06 May 09 - 06:07 PM

Teribus, compare like with like. Give Hamas some of the billions given to Israel each year, end the blockade of Gaza, weapons embargoes etc., and I'm sure Hamas would be able to provide far more adequate defence for Gazans than they do. As it is their militants daily risk their lives tunneling across borders and smuggling to get small arms to sustain their efforts. I'm not condoning what they do (nor do I condone what the Israeli Army do) but you are not talking about a level playing pitch here. Maybe Hamas could ask all Gazans to leave Gaza while they conduct their war? Israel would be delighted!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 06 May 09 - 06:08 PM

But of course... where would they go, except into the sea?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 06 May 09 - 06:34 PM

I was just reading a couple of excellent articles about the recent play by Caryl Churchill and was struck by this paragraph from an article in the Wall Street Journal by Bret Stephens:

But logic is not the issue here, nor, really, are the facts: Try arguing either with someone determined to ignore them. The issue is about taboo -- a word easy to mock until you realize it often upholds what is best in society. Racism has become taboo in American society, and that's a very good thing. Anti-Semitism used to be taboo, but that's been eroded by an obsessive criticism of Israel that seems to borrow freely from the classic anti-Semitic repertoire ("tell her they're filth") while adopting the brilliant trick of treating Jewish victimization as a moral ideal from which modern Israel has sadly deviated.

Boy, does that sound like someone familiar.

The whole article by Bret Stephens.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 06 May 09 - 06:38 PM

The other excellent article I was referring to is from The Independent, a British newspaper.

From the Independent.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 06 May 09 - 07:10 PM

If racism has become taboo, then too, would be anti-semitism, as it is merely a form of racism.

But many forms of racism still persist in the US and elsewhere, it's just the focus of racism has shifted. Once upon a time when it was black people who were margianlised and disenfranchised by white people, those same white people felt threatened that the fellow humans they oppressed would rise up against them. Thus they held racist nations about a 'black threat' or attempted to justify their ongoing immoral behaviour toward their fellow human on various spurious racist theories.

Then for various reasons and slowly over time, the oppression and marginalisation stopped (though many would argue not completely) and black people were absorbed into mainstream 'white' society (i.e the Cosbys rather than Black Panthers) and it became uncool to be racist towards black people.

Then there was the cold war and the Russians were the baddies, and ok, so there were no pogroms against Russo-American shopkeepers etc., There was no long tradition of it unlike against black people.

The cold war ended and the main 'threat' remained from Islamic fundamentalists / or the middle east in general (I'm over-simplifying here, and can't include the reasons for that 'threat' as the scope is too large, but suffice to say it wasn't like Arabs just went mad one day and just decided to go bad)

Then Arabs became the bad guys and especially after Sept 11th it became -if not actually ok - then at least not taboo to express racist attitudes towards Arabs (or Muslims in a wider sense). You don't have to look even too far away from here to see that.

So yes, there has always and probably will always be racism. There were always be people who feel there are other races of people in the world not quite as good - or much worse - than their own 'race'. And, in the end of the day, what is 'race'? Are we not all people? Humans? Germaine Greer, though I find fault with much of what she says, wrote in "The Female Eunuch" that if aliens were to invade we would suddenly find we had much more in common with those people some of us now hold in distaste (her actual words were a lot more biting) than with the life-form from Planet X. Maybe an alien invasion would do us some good!

When I was younger I often criticised the Soviet regime to my friends -at least those who felt communist Russia to be way superior to the decadent West. While they had some good points, I asked them what about suppression of the press, free speech (on that note: )
the suppression of religious freedom in service of the atheist state, the gulags, etc., we are all familiar with the failings of the Soviet Regime and I doubt anyone here would stick up for it. But neither would anyone say I was 'anti-Russian' or that I hated the Russian people. I think any normal, sane person in full possession of all their faculties would see that criticising the actions and foreign policy of the Soviet State was not an expression of hatred towards the Russian people or a desire to see them all gone from Earth.

No doubt there are some people unable to distinguish between the Soviet State, and the cheerleaders who supported its policies, and the Russian people at large. I have had dealings with many Russian people and I found them to be just like my own people - a mix of good and bad (in my judgement), a truism which hardly needs saying.

But such people are not going to respond to rational argument anyway.

Likewise, I find it tiresome in the extreme when it is suggested that criticism of the State of Israel and its actions or those of its supporters is tantamount to anti-semitism (as seems to be the case above). It also implies that all Jews around the world are complicit in the immoral actions carried out by the Israeli State (as opposed to the moral ones, which no doubt occur too). How in hell are all Jews around the world complicit in the immoral actions of the Israeli State? Just because they are Jewish? Even the ones that disagree with the actions of the Israeli State? Surely that's a racist viewpoint too?

If you disagree with me, you are simply revealing that you're an anti-Irish / pro-British-imperialist racist who probably wishes that we were all killed off during the potato famine and that we are not fit for self-government. That means I don't have to listen to you and you are probably a very disturbed person. Now that's a handy argument that should win them all. If you also happen to be Irish, it's because you hate your own race in addition to the points above.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 06 May 09 - 07:15 PM

I hope the irony / sarcasm in the last paragraph was obvious. Just in case it's not, it was.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 06 May 09 - 07:32 PM

For me the key paragraph in Stephens article was

"In other words, if you're prepared to manipulate history as dishonestly as our vile little "play" about black America does, then it's easy to draw a damning moral. And if you're clever enough to cast the indictment as a story about some blacks or some Jews, or as one of generational decadence, then you might also acquit yourself of charges of racism or anti-Semitism, since you can point to a few Jews or blacks worthy of your considered respect"

This represents the point where Stephens shifted the argument from being a criticism of Israel / the Israeli State (as I understood Ms.Churchill's play to be, from his description of it) to a more familiar old accusation of anti-semitism.

In other words, Stephens leaves us with a stark choice: either admit we are racists or else shut up and let the Israeli Authorities get on with making life hell for Palestinians without comment.

Nice one, Stephens.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 06 May 09 - 08:30 PM

"Yes Peace, but it seems significant to me also that Hamas will accept a return to 1967 borders. This to me indicates their position is not as extreme as might be thought, and that Hamas have a bargaining point."

Read again that post, Nickhere. Yes, they will accept a return to the '67 borders, but they will NOT agree to a lasting peace--at least the tenor of the article you linked to indicates they would like 30 years, maybe, and no rewrite of the Hamas Charter. That would tell any Israeli government that it's a tactic to rebuild arms supplies and effect a trained army and THEN goodbye Israel.

Please know I am talking about Islam, not Muslims. The vast majority of Muslims on this planet are peaceful people. Toss a few Imams who are loony into the mix, and then go back and look at the invasions of North Africa and Spain. Nope. When religion is used in this manner, I have no use for the bastards. When a Holy book can be twisted so that its believers think it's good to go cut of heads and kill 'unbelievers' and shit like that, they lose any sympathy from me. Much as did the Christians back in the various Crusades (about a dozen of them). That isn't religion. It's insanity, and I ain't buying into it. My neighbour can practise (or not) any faith he/she wants. But when my neighbour begins to tell me I'm worthless because I don't believe as he does, he can go fuck himself. That is a gross MISuse of religion, and I see too much of that in today's world.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 06 May 09 - 08:34 PM

"But of course... where would they [Palestinians] go, except into the sea?"

Israel's neighbours have been trying to do exactly that to Israelis since 1947.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: robomatic
Date: 06 May 09 - 08:41 PM

They could go where a whole bunch of Palestinians have gone: Jordan, which is basically a Palestinian State in situ.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 06 May 09 - 08:44 PM

Lox,

Sorry. But she wants a pissing contest with me and now she's got it.

The fundamental question is one of whether Hamas/Hezbollah will ever prosecute its own members the same way Israel is expected to prosecute itself.

I don't really give a shit about the constant cut and paste histrionics as to whether Israel has a right to exist. My own country voted that it did. Period. Israel exists. I know Israelis would love peace. Where will they find it? I am tired of the anti-Jewish/Israeli bias I see so much of on this site. So fuck it. I will not try to reason with her or anyone else who presents those views. PERIOD.

So maybe you could tell me: who will prosecute the Hamas/Hezbollah leadership? Who? And why would you expect honour from Israel when its enemies have so little of it? Where are the moderate voices from either side? A voice that doesn't say, "We want peace, and as soon as Israel doesn't exist we will have it." !!!!????

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 May 09 - 11:53 PM

Hamas is already being shaken and taken to the headmaster. They have been bombed by Israel, subjected to targeted assasinations, kidnapped and jailed by the Israeli government, the Western powers tried to conduct a coup against Hamas in Gaza, the Gaza strip has been completely blockaded, and the Western powers have completely excluded them from any discussions or negotiations.

In the meantime, absolutely nothing whatever has been done to the war criminals in Israel, except to give them more money and more power.

It seems that a certain poster with the ironic screen name only wants those sub-human brown skinned people in Gaza to be taken to the headmaster, while his lily-white European friends a allowed to do whatever they want.

And since, of the two of us, I am the only one who has said that they should all be tried at the same time (brought before the headmaster), it appears that this poster is trying to divert attention away from his own white supremacist racism by telling lies about me. Not a very effective approach, I think, since other people can read what I've said for themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 07 May 09 - 12:04 AM

It wasn't the Jews who were being dispossessed during the period when European Zionists started colonizing Palestine. It was the indigenous people (including indigenous Jews) who were being dispossessed by the European Zionists. And this was the source of the conflict. I have not ever denied that any Jews were killed by indigenous non-Jews. Some were. But the aggressors were the Europeans who were working to get the indigenous people marginalized and dispossessed of their homes and livelihoods, and to deny them sovereignty and their right to self-determination. It was always their purpose to take over as much of that region as they could, and to remove anyone who was not Jewish. This is extremely well documented in the writings of the early Zionists.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 07 May 09 - 12:08 AM

I think everyone should eliminate their nuclear weapons. So when I say that Israel should eliminate theirs, I am holding them to exactly the same standard as I am holding everyone else.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 07 May 09 - 12:13 AM

On the subject of bomb shelters, only Jewish Israelis have bomb shelters that they can go to. The government of Israel provides bomb shelters for Jews, but not for Arab Israelis. Which is very convenient for the government of Israel, since it likes to hold up the numbers of Arab Israelis killed in rocket attacks and say, "look, they're killing Arabs".

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 07 May 09 - 12:16 AM

SSDD

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 07 May 09 - 12:35 AM

Some more commentary on Caryl Churchill's, 7 Jewish Children...

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1239710762124&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull


From the Jerusalem Post:

After reading a lot of the pro and (mainly) con about Seven Jewish Children - a play for Gaza, I prepared to write a column saying that while it took an excessively critical view of Israel, it was not anti-Semitic, and that there was a big difference between the two.

Being a responsible journalist, I then set aside 10 minutes to actually read the play, and I found that not only isn't it anti-Semitic, it isn't excessively critical of Israel, either. As far as I'm concerned, it's just critical enough - which is to say very, very critical. More precisely, this short play by Britain's Caryl Churchill expresses moral outrage at Israel - which is what I felt during the war in Gaza, and what lots of other Jews and gentiles who want the best for this country felt as well.

I don't know what Churchill thinks would be best for this country, or for the Jewish people, and I don't know if I'd agree with her if I knew. But what she seems to be saying in this play is that the trauma to the Jews during the Holocaust has, over the years, been twisted into the aggression of the Jews in today's Israel. She's saying that while Jews saw Israel as a sanctuary after the Holocaust, the building of this sanctuary also meant the displacement of a lot of natives, specifically Beduin. She's saying the Six Day War turned us into conquerors, made us callous toward the Palestinians, and that our callousness reached a shocking new extreme during our onslaught in Gaza.

She's saying Jewish victimhood has not been redemptive; that instead, it's fueled Israel's victimization of Palestinians and been used as an excuse for it. She doesn't portray Palestinians as pacifists, noting, in the words of her characters, that they're known to "set off bombs in cafes," that they include "Hamas fighters" and that "they're attacking with rockets." But her view in the play is that Israel exaggerates the Palestinian threat out of all proportion and gives many, many times better than it gets.

Seven Jewish Children says this country has become hysterical with fear and aggression, that the more hell we inflict on innocent Palestinians, the more desperate we are to deny any wrongdoing and the more medals we pin on our chests.

Churchill wrote the play in January, while the war was going on. It was a harsh portrayal of this nation, but, in my opinion, a true one.

The play's spirit isn't filled with hatred; it's filled with moral outrage. There's a difference. You don't have to be an anti-Semite or even an anti-Zionist to be morally outraged at our treatment of Palestinians, especially during Operation Cast Lead.

The charge has been made that the play compares Israelis to Nazis. I never thought that for one moment while reading it, rereading it or watching a staging of it on YouTube. The American journalist James Kirchick wrote that by the end of the play, the Jewish child being raised in Israel is a "Baruch-Goldstein-in-training."

Not at all. None of the characters is a murderer or a proponent of murder. None is a sadist. What all of them are is callous about what Israel is doing to the Palestinians, and by turns worried or defiant about how to justify it. No Nazis here, no Baruch Goldsteins, but rather people who've suffered too much and caused too much suffering, and who have become severely coarsened in the process. Read the "worst" monologue, the climactic one:

"Tell her, tell her about the army, tell her to be proud of the army. Tell her about the family of dead girls, tell her the names, why not, tell her the whole world knows why shouldn't she know? tell her there's dead babies, did she see babies? tell her she's got nothing to be ashamed of. Tell her they did it to themselves. Tell her they want their children killed to make people feel sorry for them, tell them I don't feel sorry for them, tell her not to be sorry for them, tell her we're the ones to be sorry for, tell her they can't talk suffering to us. Tell her we're the iron fist now, tell her it's the fog of war, tell her I laughed when I saw the dead policemen, tell her they're animals living in rubble now, tell her I wouldn't care if we wiped them out, the world would hate us is the only thing, tell her I don't care if the world hates us, tell her we're better haters, tell her we're chosen people, tell her I look at one of their children covered in blood and what do I feel? tell her all I feel is happy it's not her."

I heard comments similar to these from some of my relatives during the war. Going back through the 24 years I've lived here, I've heard comments like these from relatives, neighbors, fellow soldiers - I've heard it and read it all over the place. I've heard it from Diaspora Jews too.

Who are we kidding? Does that monologue represent the voice of every Israeli and "pro-Israeli" Diaspora Jew? Of course not. But is it an authentic voice, a view of Palestinians held by many, many Jews here and abroad even if they don't express it publicly? Has that voice not gotten louder? And when push comes to shove with the Palestinians, as it did in Operation Cast Lead, does Seven Jewish Children not echo the inner (and often outer) voice of Israel at war?

I think it does. And I agree - it's an awful echo to hear.


More commentary here...

http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com/2009/04/7-jewish-children-play-for-gaza.html

http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com/2009/04/guardian-hosts-7-jewish-children-so.html

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 07 May 09 - 12:42 AM

The poster with the ironic screen name has either misunderstood me or is intentionally distorting what I have said.

I don't think either Israel, or Hamas or Hezbollah should police themselves with regard to the war crimes they have committed. No entity who has committed war crimes should be the one to police itself. People who commit war crimes can't be trusted to police themselves.

I have repeatedly said they should be brought before an international court for war crimes. As should the government of the United States, for its war crimes. And it should be a completely impartial international court and not one where some countries have more influence than others.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 07 May 09 - 12:45 AM

I have a bet for $5.00 that you'll post at least seven in a row. Count the last two. Goooooooo. I need the fin.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 07 May 09 - 12:58 AM

None of my posts have been concerned with the question of whether or not Israel has a right to exist. They are concerned with whether or not Israel has a right to expand, to wage an illegal military occupation of land outside its internationally recognized borders, to commit genocide and ethnic cleansing, to wage wars of aggression against other countries, and to discriminate against members of its own population, WITH MY TAX MONEY.

Trying to characterize my posts as being about whether or not Israel has a right to exist is a standard hasbara smear tactic that is used for the purpose of silencing dissent. These tactics have been very successful in the past, but they insult the intelligence of most readers, and for this reason, and because of their overuse for so many years, they are quickly losing their effectiveness.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 07 May 09 - 12:59 AM

They might have been had not someone deep in his cups posted in between some of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 07 May 09 - 01:02 AM

CarolC, your post of 07 May 09 - 12:04 AM. Please give me examples of instances where Jews dispossessed Arabs in the area formerly known as Palestine between the years 1850 and 1947. The post I refer is a classic example of the ignorance and denial you are in about this period of this areas history.

CarolC, your post of 07 May 09 - 12:13 AM. Please give sources and proof regarding the bomb shelters only being for Jewish Israelis. I find this rather difficult to imagine having seen those shelters down in the south of Israel. They are rather similar to large sections of concrete drain pipes with blast walls protecting the open ends. You couldn't "prevent anybody getting into them if you tried. The warning times only allow you to run into these things before the rocket or mortar lands and explodes, there is no time to check anything. Warning times are so short these shelters are all over the place.

Nickhere, no group of so called refugees has been given more in aid than the Palestinians. All the Palestinian "leadership" has ever done has been to squander it to keep themselves in power.

Since 1947 the people of Palestine both Jew and Arab have been like two people arguing over something. First they are given the opportunity to share it, the Jews accept the Arabs reject the proposal so they decide to cut a pack of cards for it. The Arabs lose, so they say best of three, they lose again and suggest best of five, they lose again and demand best of seven. They lose yet again and now want to accept a lesser share than they originally turned down. If you elect to decide something by force of arms then losing has its consequences, that has been constant throughout the history of the human race, the Arabs of Palestine elected to fight and they lost. It is high time that they accepted that fact and lived with it, because if they do not and adhere to the Charter of Hamas, they will surely die and it will be by their own chosing.

Level playing fields do not enter the equation Nickhere, in 1948 the newly created Jewish State of Israel was given aid, the Palestinian Arabs were given aid, the playing field was fairly level. The Jews did something constructive with theirs, the Arabs funded pipe-dreams with theirs and allowed themselves to be used as political pawns in the game known as the "Cold War". As time went by this continued and "playing field" got distorted as happens when one side acts sensibly and other continues to pursue the impossible.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 07 May 09 - 01:13 AM

During the Ottoman period peasants had leases on farms and homes that they and their families occupied and worked for hundreds of years. When the European Jews showed up, they conducted back room deals with absentee landlords to take those homes and farms away from the families who had been living in them for all those many years.

The bomb shelters are built in Jewish neighborhoods and not in Arab neighborhoods. It doesn't matter if a bomb shelter in a Jewish neighborhood would allow an Arab in it (and I think it's an open question whether or not it would), if the bomb is falling in an Arab neighborhood. This problem extends far beyond the question of bomb shelters, though. The government of Israel also discriminates against Arab Israelis in the delivery (or lack thereof) of all public utilities and infrastructure.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28489020/

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 07 May 09 - 02:09 AM

"I don't really give a shit about the constant cut and paste histrionics as to whether Israel has a right to exist. My own country voted that it did. Period. Israel exists."

Good words from that poster!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 07 May 09 - 02:16 AM

Regarding "WITH MY TAX MONEY".

If I reimburse you, will you kindly stfu? Your share is likely in the area of $50. Complain about the health care system for a change. (Are there Jewish doctors in the US? If so, forget I said that.)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 07 May 09 - 02:38 AM

Good night, Ralph.

Sam

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 07 May 09 - 02:57 AM

I'll still be complicit, and I will still have the blood of innocent Palestinian children on my hands, regardless of whether or not my money is reimbursed, because it's my money that has enabled the government of Israel to do what it's been doing. So instead of reimbursing me, I would suggest waging a campaign to end US taxpayer money being given to the government of Israel. Once the government of Israel can no longer to afford to do what it's been doing to the Palestinians (because the US taxpayers are no longer providing them with the means to do it), I will be happy to shut up about it. Although I would still counter any racism I see being expressed towards Palestinians, Muslims, and Arabs (as I also do when I encounter racism being expressed towards other groups, including Jews).

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 07 May 09 - 03:16 AM

I would also continue to speak out when my government enables the government of Israel to do what it's been doing to the Palestinians (and also its neighbors) in other ways as well, like for instance through its use of its UN veto. So I guess the only way to shut me up is to persuade the government of Israel to give up its hegemonic and imperialist ambitions altogether.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 May 09 - 10:55 AM

Are the Jews using Israel for a staging area to take over the world?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 07 May 09 - 11:11 AM

No, I don't think so.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,C. Ham
Date: 07 May 09 - 11:14 AM

Are the Jews using Israel for a staging area to take over the world?

Absoloutely. We already control the U.S. government, the Canadian government, the European Union, NATO, etc.

The only thing we're having trouble with is the United Nations and Mudcat Cafe. That'll come though.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 07 May 09 - 11:22 AM

"During the Ottoman period peasants had leases on farms and homes that they and their families occupied and worked for hundreds of years. When the European Jews showed up, they conducted back room deals with absentee landlords to take those homes and farms away from the families who had been living in them for all those many years." - CarolC

I now know what the C stands for - CRAP

The Ottomans only ever sold the Jewish immigrants useless land. I believe I've given you examples dating back to the 1870's before. Detailing land and what the Jews accomplished with that land through drainage and hard work.

Even given your example above - the absentee landlords selling land and property which lets face it those landlords owned to someone prepared to pay the asking price - It would appear that if the peasants from the Ottoman period have got a beef with anyone it would be the landlord who has sold the property not the person that has bought it. But Oh wait!! The absentee landlord was probably a Turk or an Arab whereas the person who purchased the property perfectly legally was a Jew - Must be the Jews fault - Your logic smacks of racism and bigotry.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 07 May 09 - 11:22 AM

While I think that comment was made in jest, I think it's also important to point out that as with Muslims, there is no monolithic entity of Jewishness. Take a look at the people in the links I've been providing. The vast majority of them are Jewish, and they are fighting just as hard for the rights of Palestinians and for an end to Israeli aggression as I am, and some of them are fighting a lot harder, and making huge sacrifices.

For Jews, the consequences for doing this kind of work often includes being ostracized from family and the Jewish community, which can be an incredibly painful thing. In the Mondoweiss blog, one of the owners and contributers, Philip Weiss, was blacklisted for doing this work, and his successful career as an investigative journalist has been effectively ended.

These people deserve our gratitude and not our contempt, even if it's only in jest.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 07 May 09 - 11:26 AM

The Mudcat Cafe is anything but kosher.

Too much conflict between those with an hasidic wit (arf arf) and those who do nothing but swine ...

... besides - the dominant fait here is the church of the flying pig ...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 07 May 09 - 11:26 AM

I should have used the term "alienated" rather than ostracized in my last post.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 07 May 09 - 11:32 AM

Calling me names doesn't change the facts. What the peasants (fellahin) experienced was that strangers from Europe were suddenly showing up and taking their homes and farms. This is a fact, and is a big part of the reason for the conflict. That was their experience and no amount of legalese type of arguing will ever change that, and trying to sweep it under the rug by obscuring it under a pile of legalese language, while at the same time denying the existence of these people, not only smacks of racism and bigotry, it is actually quite racist and bigoted.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 May 09 - 12:39 PM

"Absoloutely. We already control the U.S. government, the Canadian government, the European Union, NATO, etc.
The only thing we're having trouble with is the United Nations and Mudcat Cafe. That'll come though."


                I suppose anything is possible, once the media is thoroughly under control.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 07 May 09 - 01:09 PM

This is why it's not going to happen...

At the AIPAC Policy Conference

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 07 May 09 - 02:07 PM

Carol you wouldn't know a fact if it jumped up and bit you.

"What the peasants (fellahin) experienced was that strangers from Europe were suddenly showing up and taking their homes and farms. This is a fact, and is a big part of the reason for the conflict."

No Carol what the fellahin experienced and witnessed was that strangers given useless land by the Ottomans made that land productive, either by turning it to agriculture or by transforming it into communities that prospered through trade and industry. No Arabs were thrown out of their homes and farms, in fact quite the reverse was the case in 1920; 1921; 1929; 1936 - 1939 & again in 1947 but in that year the Jews started to fight back having been offered a nation by the UN they accepted the UN's 1947 plan and the State of Israel came into being in May 1948 when the old League of Nations Mandate expired.

Now the Arabs want to turn the clock back to 1947, but they still will not offer the State of Israel peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 May 09 - 02:33 PM

But T, don't you know that Jews are not allowed to fight back when attacked?


BTW, why is it no-one addresses the fact that Ramallah, which is now the seat of the (Moslim) Plaestinian government was a Christian town back in 1948, when my (past) neighbors were driven out of the West Bank ( for being Christian)?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 May 09 - 04:32 PM

"For Jews, the consequences for doing this kind of work often includes being ostracized from family and the Jewish community, which can be an incredibly painful thing."

And for Moslim Palestinians who work for the rights of the Israelis the consequences are torture and death.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 May 09 - 05:41 PM

Frankly, it doesn't sound like a very pleasant place!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 May 09 - 05:42 PM

"After the partition, Transjordan remained part of the Palestine Mandate and its legal system applied to all residents, both East and West of the Jordan River, who all carried Palestine Mandate passports. Palestine Mandate currency was the legal tender in Transjordan as well as the area West of the river. This was the consistent situation until 1946, 24 years later, when Britain completed the action by unilaterally granting Transjordan its independence. Thus the British subverted the purpose of the Palestine Mandate, partitioned Palestine and created an independent Palestine-Arab state with no regard for the rights and needs of the Jewish population.

According to Sir Alec Kirkbride, the British representative in the area, Transjordan was:

... intended to serve as a reserve of land for use in the resettlement of Arabs once the National Home for the Jews in Palestine, which [Britain was] pledged to support, became an accomplished fact. There was no intention at that stage of forming the territory east of the River Jordan into an independent Arab state.
In 1925, the British added 60,000 sq. km. of desert to eastern Transjordan forming an "arm" of land to connect Transjordan with Iraq and to cut Syria off from the Arabian Peninsula. The British continued to favor exclusive Arab development east of the Jordan River by enacting restrictive regulations against the Jews, even when Arab leaders sought Jewish involvement in the development of Transjordan."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 May 09 - 05:48 PM

From the 1922 Mandate:

"ART. 6.
The Administration of Palestine ... shall facilitate Jewish immigration under suitable conditions and shall encourage, in co-operation with the Jewish agency referred to in Article 4, close settlement by Jews on the land, including State lands and waste lands not required for public purposes. "


So who is being displaced???

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 07 May 09 - 06:05 PM

Muslims who fight for the "right" of Israelis to commit genocide on the Palestinians and wage a brutal military occupation of their land, yes, just as Jewish resistance fighters (notice how we call them "resistance fighters" rather than terrorists) did to collaborators during World War II.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 07 May 09 - 06:32 PM

Makes a guy want to puke.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 07 May 09 - 06:58 PM

Clearly I'm not the one in this discussion who wouldn't know a fact if it jumped up and bit me.

The land was far from useless, since it included much fertile land as well as grazing land, and it was the homes and livelihoods of hundreds of thousands of fellahin.

Blaming the Victims


When the European Jews started colonizing Palestine, they adopted the approach of removing the felahin from the land they had lived on and farmed (and/or grazed) for hundreds of years, and after dispossessing them of their homes and livelihoods, they also completely squeezed them out of being able to make a living in other ways.


http://tmh.floonet.net/articles/halbrook.html

In the latter part of the nineteenth century, while title to land traditionally held by Arab peasants was being transferred to Arab and Turkish landlords, another force emerged which was to have the most significant influence on the distribution of land, namely, the Zionist movement which began to support immigration of Jews to Palestine. While reliable statistics do not exist, it has been estimated that Palestine in the second half of the nineteenth century consisted of a population of more or less a half million, of which some 80% were Muslims, 10% Christians, and 5 to 1% Jews. In 1882 Jews owned 22,500 dunums of land out of the 26,323,000 dunums which were to make up Mandate Palestine, i.e., .09% of the land. By 1900 there were 50,000 Jews in Palestine, mostly in Jerusalem and Jaffa, although twenty-two settlements existed by then, and Jews owned 218,000 dunums, or .8% of the land.6

The increase in Jewish ownership was largely prompted by the founding of the Palestine Jewish Colonization Association (PICA) by Baron Edmond de Rothschild, the "Father of the Yishuv" (the Jewish settlement in Palestine) who for decades was to be the largest Jewish landowner in Palestine and Transjordan. Rothschild "bought land from the feudal Effendis, sometimes by bribing the Ottoman administration, and drove the fellahin off the land."7 Some of the same fellaheen were hired to work the land they once cultivated as their own.

A different approach was taken by Zionists of a more purist position than the classic colonialist policy held by Rothschild. "When we occupy the land...we must expropriate gently the private property on the estates assigned to us," wrote Zionism's founder Theodor Herzl. "We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any employment in our own countries."8 In 1907 the World Zionist Organization incorporated the Keren Kayemeth Leisrael (Jewish National Fund), which was dedicated to purchasing land exclusively for Jews and refusing employment to displaced Arabs. Beginning a year later with the building of a suburb outside Jaffa which came to be known as Tel Aviv, Keren Kayemeth was destined to be the major landowner in Palestine.

During the last years of Turkish rule in Palestine, the lands seized from Arab peasants by Arab absentee landlords were in turn being sold to Zionist settlers whose policy increasingly was to deny employment to Arabs. Only 144 Arab landlords owned a total of 3,130,000 dunums in Palestine—in the Jezreel Valley alone the Sursuk family of Beirut and Egypt held title to 230,000 dunums—and "the great majority of land bought by Jews in the period of Turkish rule, and later under the British Mandate,... was acquired from proprietors of large estates."9 By 1914 Jewish ownership of land amounted to 418,000 dunums or about 1.6% of Palestine, and Jews constituted 84,660 (12%) out of a population of 689,275.10

"His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people," wrote British Foreign Secretary Lord Balfour to Lord Lionel Rothschild in November 1917, adding that "nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine," i.e., the overwhelming majority of the population consisting of Moslem and Christian Arabs. Palestine was a land without a people and for a people without a land according to Zionist leader Israel Zangwill, who wrote in 1919:

The power in every country...always resides in the landowning classes. Yet over 30,000 Arab landlords and some 600,000 fellahin are to continue in possession of the bulk of the Holy Land.... [To remedy this situation] measures of race redistribution...will be carried out in Palestine as elsewhere. Thus the Arabs would gradually be settled in the new and vast Arabian Kingdom.... Only with a Jewish majority...can Israel enter upon the task of building up that model state....11

Before October 1920 Jews held 650,000 dunums and land sales quickly increased under the British Mandate. The first significant Keren Kayemeth purchase of seven Arab villages was a factor in the 1921 Arab uprising which led Britain to enact the Transfer of Land Ordinance (1921), whereby the landlord was required to see that tenants uprooted by sales retain land elsewhere. Landlords evaded the ordinance simply by evicting tenants before sale. Comparable acts to protect cultivators passed in the following two decades were also evaded, increasing the number of landless Arabs.12 In any case, the first real census of Palestine, taken in 1922, indicated that Jews numbered 83,794 out of a total population of 757,182. Thus Jews, about three-quarters of whom lived in the Jerusalem-Jaffa area and about two-thirds of whom were European immigrants, constituted 11% of the population.13 Estimates respecting distribution of land indicate that in the same year, excluding freehold fellaheen, three million dunums of the land of Palestine were held by only 120 Arab families.14 By 1927 Jewish land holdings more than doubled from the start of the war to 865,000 dunums— still only 3.3% of Palestine.

A year after the 1929 revolt in which fellaheen and especially bedouin played a major role, the Simpson Report estimated that about 30% of Arab villagers were landless. Unlike the Jews, who had favorable, long-term leases, Arab tenants held land on a yearly basis, terminable at the landlord's will. The economic condition of the fellah was desperate, for scarce capital, heavy debts, rising rent, overtaxation, and high interest were crushing this class. One study showed the average fellah family in possession of about seventy-five dunums, while double that amount would have been required for a decent standard of living.15 Peasants borrowed at 30% interest or more, or sold their land, in order to pay the tithe (which might be a fourth of a fellah's income) and other taxes, debts, and subsistence expenses. Cultivators without land were required to give the landlord whose land they worked about half the produce. The fellaheen were literally bankrupt㬼% of the families in one subdistrict had execution proceedings pending against them, a family's whole crop could be attached for taxes, and imprisonment for debt was extensive. The condition of the fellah was hardly better than under the Turks.16

While the Jewish Agency pressed its claim to all lands owned by the government, considerable areas over which the government had de jure claims had been occupied and cultivated by Arabs for very many years. Not only were areas available for Jewish settlement "negligible," but already Jewish settlements were interfering with the rights of grazing and cultivation of bedouin, the majority of whom wandered in Beersheba as in ancient times. Fellaheen who were evicted from their lands in the countryside, on emigrating to the cities, found that the Histadrut (Jewish Labor Federation) excluded them from employment in Jewish industry and commerce, resulting in serious unemployment.17

Zionist policies faced Arabs with discrimination based on race, religion, or national origin at every turn: Kibush Hakarka (Conquest of the Land) took the Arab tenant's land, Kibush Ha'avoda (Conquest of Labor) prevented the hiring of Arabs as employees, and T'ozteret Ha'aretz (Produce of the Land) imposed a boycott of Arab produced commodities.18 The Constitution of the Jewish Agency (1929), Art. HI, declared: "Land is to be acquired as Jewish property... [and] held as the inalienable property of the Jewish people. The Agency shall promote agricultural colonisation based on Jewish labour, and in all works or undertakings carried out or furthered by the Agency, it shall be deemed to be a matter of principle that Jewish labour shall be employed...." The Keren Kayemeth lease contained the restrictive covenant based on race that the holding shall never be held by any but a Jew and that only Jewish labor could be employed in connection with cultivation of the holding. Jewish lessees who hired or attempted to sell rights to Arabs were to have their own leases terminated.19

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 07 May 09 - 06:59 PM

Latte again . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 07 May 09 - 06:59 PM

Here's some more from the last link...

The census of 1931 revealed an Arab population (including Moslems, Christians, Druses, etc.) of 861,200 and a Jewish population of 174,600, i.e., 17%. The same estimate of 66,553 bedouin as suggested in 1922 was used, as if no population increase ever occurred among this sector of the Arab population.20 While the doubling of the Jewish population (which was about half European) since the previous census was due primarily to immigration, the increase in the Arab population resulted from natural causes. With further Jewish immigration and land purchases in the thirties, foreclosures by absentee holders of legal title who often resided in Damascus, Beirut, Cairo, and Kuwait dispossessed an ever increasing number of fellaheen. The sale by the Lebanese Sursuk tax farmer family of 240,000 dunums alone displaced almost 9,000 persons.21

By the end of 1936, the PICA, Keren Kayemeth, and Palestine Land Development Company—all Zionist organizations—held title to land as indicated in Table 1. As the former director of Keren Kayemeth commented: "If we add up all these figures, we shall find that no less than 90.6 per cent of all acquisitions were of land which formerly belonged to large landowners, while from fellaheen only 9.4 per cent was purchased."22 While it is not known how many Arab tenants were thereby evicted, in 1936 Jewish landownership amounted to 1,231,000 dunums. It is not surprising that when Arab workers and peasants, sparked by al-Qassam's guerrilla offensive in the countryside, rose up in armed struggle and engaged in general strikes during 1936-39, the feudal elements led by al-Husseini favored a compromise with the British, who, aided by the Zionists, crushed the revolt.

"There is no room for both peoples together in this country," reflected Joseph Weitz in 1940. Head of the Jewish Agency's Colonization Department and in charge of land acquisitions, Weitz continued that "there is no other way but to transfer the Arabs from here to the neighboring countries; to transfer all of them: not one village, not one tribe should be left... ."23

A Survey of Palestine, prepared for the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry in the mid forties, described the continuing dispossession of the fellaheen in the same manner as had the Simpson Report. Legal fictions regarding title rather than traditional rights based on possession continued to insure land transactions between large Arab and Zionist landowners. "The Ottoman land registry records... still constitute the basis of a large number of claims to real rights in Palestine." Yet Arab agriculturists worked "state" lands to the extent that "it cannot be assumed that Government is in possession of extensive tracts of land which are lying idle." In 1944 the Jewish population, determined to be 553,600 (32%) out of 1,739,624 (including the never increasing nomads), held 1,731,300 dunums. "This total area of Jewish land represents 6.6% of the total area of Palestine."24

A smaller official estimate for Jewish landholdings at the end of 1944 set the figure at 1,491,699 dunums as compared to 12,766,524 dunums owned by Arabs and 1,491,690 dunums of public land. This excludes the 10,573,100 dunums composing Beersheba, which bedouin freely inhabited; traditionally basing their rights on use and not on title conferred by what they perceived as outside forces, the bedouin always had their land underestimated because their method of crop rotation involved leaving land fallow for a couple of years, while assessors included only land in current use. In any case, 85% of cultivatable lands were held by Arabs, 13% by Jews, and 3% by the public.25 The proportion of Jewish to non-Jewish landownership is presented in Map 1.

From 1922 until 1945, an estimated 96% of Moslem population growth was due to natural increase, while 72% of Jewish population growth was attributed to migratory increase. While two-thirds of the Jews lived in Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, Haifa, and Jaffa, 70% of Moslems resided in villages, although the latter percentage still indicated a trend toward urbanization. The last official Mandate Government population estimates found 589,341 Jews (31%) out of 1,908,775 persons at the end of March 1947.27 By the end of that year Jews owned 1,734,000 dunums or 6.6% of Palestine, having bought 57% of this land from large Arab landowners, 16% from government, churches, and foreign companies, and 27% from fellaheen.28 Graph 1 and Table 2 summarize the growth of Jewish population and landowner-ship respectively.

The United Nations Partition Resolution of November 1947 provided for a Jewish state of about 57% of Palestine although Jewish landowner-ship was only about 10% of the proposed state. The gerrymandering plan included 498,000 Jews and 497,000 Arabs within the state. Yet for the Zionist leadership, this was too little land and too many Arabs. It was not only the Irgun of Menachem Begin and Moshe Dayan, whose organization exploded bombs in Arab population centers, that desired the new state to consist of the whole of Mandate Palestine or more and to be arabenrein. An expansionist who foresaw an Israel extending from the Nile to the Euphrates, David Ben-Gurion never intended to abide by the U.N. boundaries, and in his state "there was no place for Arabs." Ben-Gurion wanted to attack Arab population centers.

Ben-Gurion remained skeptical about any possibility of coexistence with the Arabs. The fewer there were living within the frontiers of the new Jewish state, the better he would like it. He did not actually say this, but his position was clear—a major offensive against the Arabs would not only break up their attacks but would also greatly reduce the percentage of Arabs in the population of the new state. While this might be called racialism, the whole Zionist movement actually was based on the principle of a purely Jewish community in Palestine.29

On April 9, 1948, 254 unarmed men, women, and children at Deir Yassin, an Arab village west of Jerusalem, were massacred by Zionist terrorists.30 Most of the mutilated bodies were thrown down a well, while others were scattered about the village. While the attack was spearheaded by Begin's Irgun Zvai Leumi and the frankly fascist Stern gang, the commander of the Haganah approved the attack, although Ben-Gurion's party attempted to exculpate itself from blame. According to Begin, the attackers used "large numbers of hand-grenades," and the civilians "suffered inevitable casualties." Deir Yassin was "the first Arab village to be captured by Jewish forces," leading the Arabs to expect genocide at the hands of the Zionists.

Panic overwhelmed the Arabs of Eretz Israel.... Arabs throughout the country, induced to believe wild tales [sic] of "Irgun butchery," were seized with limitless panic and started to flee for their lives. This mass flight soon developed into a maddened, uncontrollable stampede.31

In Jerusalem, Zionist soldiers paraded a few bloodstained Deir Yassin survivors through the streets, and in Haifa Zionist loudspeakers warned the Arabs of more Deir Yassins. "All the Jewish forces proceeded to advance through Haifa like a knife through butter. The Arabs began fleeing in panic, shouting: ÔDeir Yassin!'"32 Sixty thousand Arabs fled Haifa, and almost all of Jaffa's Arab population of a hundred thousand evaporated. Almost 900 villages and five million dunums of land were abandoned as some three-quarters of a million Arabs fled Jewish, Arab, and British armies alike. "The greater part of the agricultural land was in the hands of these villagers."33

In mid May 1948, when Israel proclaimed its existence as a state, Jews were still less than one-third of the population of Palestine. Jewish land-ownership, as a result of the expulsion of the Arabs, jumped from nearly 7% of Palestine to 79%; thus it was military force, rather than a half century of land purchases (largely from Arab absentee landowners), that was the primary method by which the land of Palestine became the land of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 07 May 09 - 07:02 PM

But with extra sugar.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 07 May 09 - 07:06 PM

So as we can see, there was an official policy of ethnic cleansing by the European Jews against the indigenous people right from the beginning.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 07 May 09 - 07:08 PM

But decaf for you . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 07 May 09 - 07:34 PM

If there is to be peace in the world,
There must be peace in the nations.
If there is to be peace in the nations,
There must be peace in the cities.
If there is to be peace in the cities,
There must be peace between neighbors.
If there is to be peace between neighbors,
There must be peace in the home.
If there is to be peace in the home,
There must be peace in the heart.
Lao Tzu

Have some decaf!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 07 May 09 - 07:39 PM

No, I think I'll continue fighting for the rights of Palestinians, thanks. Others can sit back and sip their lattes while an entire people is being destroyed (with US taxpayer money), but I find that I'm not able to do that.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 07 May 09 - 07:44 PM

Thought it would help you swallow or spit out some of the hatred you spew. I figured a glass of liquid feces wouldn't help, because it would be what you're trying to get rid of in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 07 May 09 - 07:49 PM

Those kinds of hasbara smear tactic simply don't work any more. Most people are too intelligent to fall for that sort of thing, and now that they've witnessed the kind of hate campaign being waged by the poster with the ironic screen name, they know where the hate is really coming from, and in this thread, it ain't the people who are fighting for Palestinian rights. This is why the movement for Palestinian rights is growing exponentially. People can see where the hate is coming from.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 07 May 09 - 07:50 PM

And yet more . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 07 May 09 - 07:55 PM

On the other hand, I think the above poster is also a troll.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 07 May 09 - 07:57 PM

. . . and more

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 07 May 09 - 08:33 PM

If someone thinks they can silence me by following me around and making personal attacks on me and generally harassing me, they're mistaken.


Here's some more background on collaborators...

http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/1189/8911013.html

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 07 May 09 - 08:34 PM

Just no end in sight . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 07 May 09 - 08:44 PM

"From Nationalist Battle
To Religious Conflict:
New 12th Grade Palestinian schoolbooks
present a world without Israel"

The curricula is two years old.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 07 May 09 - 08:45 PM

Defend Ezra Nawi

"Nawi is an Arab-Jewish gay Ta'ayush activist threatened with jail for peacefully obstructing the criminal demolition of a Palestinian shack. He is picked upon because Israeli authorities feel particularly threatened by acts of solidarity with Palestinians coming from people of working class, non-Ashkenazi background (as was the case with Tali Fahima). His sexual orientation makes him also particularly vulnerable.

The solidarity campaign for Ezra Nawi asks:

    To support Ezra, please write a letter or email to the Israeli embassy in your country, and send us a copy to [e-mail]

    Also please consider donating to help defray the legal costs and to support his human rights activities. (http://www.supportezra.net/ )

More about Nawi here and here. We need more people like Nawi, and the place to start is to defend the ones we have. Start now!"

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 07 May 09 - 08:59 PM

Source: Hamas, Gaza militants agree to halt rockets firing on Israel


"www.chinaview.cn 2009-05-06 14:06:50      Print

Special Report: Palestine-Israel Conflicts         

    GAZA, May 6 (Xinhua) -- Islamic Hamas movement and Gaza militant groups had secretly agreed to halt homemade rockets, firing from the Gaza Strip at Israel, a senior well-informed source told Xinhua late Tuesday.

    The source, which spoke in condition of anonymity, revealed that a meeting was secretly held in Gaza city, and was attended by leaders of Hamas and Islamic Jihad movements as well as leaders of other minor militant groups.

    "It was agreed during the meeting to avoid the Israeli provocations and not to carry out actions by the Palestinian factions and armed groups that bring back a violent Israeli reaction," said the source.

    Earlier on Tuesday, the local Palestinian media quoted eyewitnesses as saying that they saw Hamas militants searching into cars in northern Gaza Strip and looking for rockets that other militants fire at Israel.

    Hamas has no comment on the report, however, the spokesman of Hamas government in Gaza Taher el-Noono said the deployment of Hamas police "is just a kind of propaganda," aimed at harming the image of his government.

    The reports on the deployment of Hamas police came after Hamas politburo chief Khaled Mashaal, who is based in Damascus, said that his movement decided to halt the rocket attacks on Israel for the time being.

    Mashaal's remarks were made following reports that Egypt had convoyed an Israeli letter to Hamas warning them of a possible military operation in the territory if the rockets continued to be fired."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Lox
Date: 07 May 09 - 09:03 PM

Hey peace,

I get it that you don't like Carol, but your interruptions are spoiling what for me is a pretty interesting and informative debate.

I like to see you as one of my Mudcat friends. The way you're posting is making me feel pretty uncomfortable.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Lox
Date: 07 May 09 - 09:09 PM

Hey peace,

Thanks for that last post. I hadn't seen it when I last posted.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 07 May 09 - 09:09 PM

Israeli textbooks and maps wipe the Palestinians off of the map

Isreal wipes the Palestinians off the map

Some Palestinian maps are fairer than Israeli ones

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 07 May 09 - 09:15 PM

SYRIAN FOREIGN minister Walid Muallem insisted yesterday that there was no need to amend proposals in a 2002 joint Arab peace plan providing for full normalisation of relations with Israel in exchange for its full withdrawal from Arab territories occupied in 1967, and a "just" solution to the Palestinian refugee problem.

He was reflecting concern in some Arab capitals at reports that the Palestinian Authority, Egypt and Jordan were seeking to modify the plan.

Following consultations with Egyptian president Hosni Mubarak and Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas, Jordan's King Abdullah recently sounded out President Barack Obama on the shape of a comprehensive plan for resolving the Arab-Israel conflict. Mr Abbas said on Wednesday that this plan would be presented to Mr Obama during meetings later this month.

The plan would set out goodwill gestures to Israel in exchange for Israeli movement on issues important to the Palestinians.

The tripartite plan is meant to demonstrate Arab unity and flexibility at a time when Israeli prime minister Binyamin Netanyahu refuses to contemplate creation of a Palestinian state next to Israel.

However, any changes in the broader Arab proposal, reaffirmed by the Arab summit at the end of March, would require acquiescence of all 22 member states of the Arab League which, at present, insists on acceptance of the unamended 2002 proposal.

In addition to Syria, Qatar and Lebanon are likely to reject any softening of the full-withdrawal-for-peace formula and the stance on refugees. Modifications would also be condemned by Hamas, which rules Gaza.

Quartet envoy Tony Blair said the Obama administration was developing a strategy of its own which would have the backing of the EU, Russia and the UN, the other three members of the group.

The strategy will be finalised and presented after Mr Obama's consultations with the Palestinian, Egyptian and Israeli leaders. Mr Obama seeks to launch simultaneous negotiations on the Palestinian-Israeli and Syrian-Israeli tracks with the aim of reaching a comprehensive Arab-Israeli deal.

Meanwhile, Mr Abbas is threatening to appoint a new Palestinian government if Fatah and Hamas do not reach an agreement on a unity coalition during the next round of talks convening in Cairo on May 16th. This would deepen the rift between Hamas and Fatah in the West Bank and weaken the Arab side in negotiations


From the on-line Irish Times

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 May 09 - 06:39 AM

""Look at the Jewish population of Palestine under the Ottomans: Does the territory of Israel reflect even that percentage of the Mandate Palestine total territory?""

They were native to that land at that time. The current state of Israel is composed mainly of European origin immigrant families.

Once again may I remind you that Judaism is a religious faith encompassing virtually every Nationality on earth.

Israel is the country under discussion, and it is far from representing even a large minority of the worlds Jews.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Riginslinger
Date: 08 May 09 - 07:23 AM

It looks like European Jews moving to Israel cause the same kinds of problems as Mexicans moving into California. I wonder when war is going to break out there?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 May 09 - 08:32 AM

" 5 to 1% Jews. In 1882 Jews owned 22,500 dunums of land out of the 26,323,000 dunums which were to make up Mandate Palestine, i.e., .09% of the land. By 1900 there were 50,000 Jews in Palestine, mostly in Jerusalem and Jaffa, although twenty-two settlements existed by then, and Jews owned 218,000 dunums, or .8% of the land."

So, it was OK for the Jews to not own land???? How nice of you to allow that.



" it is far from representing even a large minority of the worlds Jews"

The worldwide Jewish population is 13.3 million Jews. Jewish population growth worldwide is close to zero percent. From 2000 to 2001 it rose 0.3%, compared to worldwide population growth of 1.4%.

      In 2001, 8.3 million Jews lived in the Diaspora and 4.9 million lived in Israel. Just about half of the world's Jews reside in the Americas, with about 46 percent in North America.   (top)

      Approximately 37% of worldwide Jewry lives in Israel. Israel's Jewish population rose by 1.6% the past year, while the Diaspora population dropped by 0.5%.

      Europe, including the Asian territories of the Russian Republic and Turkey, accounts for about 12 percent of the total. Fewer than 2 percent of the world's Jews live in Africa and Oceania.

      Metropolitan Tel Aviv, with 2.5 million Jews, is the world's largest Jewish city. It is followed by New York, with 1.9 million, Haifa 655,000, Los Angeles 621,000, Jerusalem 570,000, and southeast Florida 514,000.

      In 2001, 8 countries had a Jewish population of 100,000 or more; another 5 countries had 50,000 or more. There is not a single Diaspora country where Jews amounted to 2.5 percent of the total population. Only 3 Diaspora countries had more than 1 percent. Gibraltar (24.0 per 1000), United States (20.1), Canada (11.9), France (8.8), Uruguay (6.7), Argentina (5.3), Hungary (5.2), and Australia (5.1)[1] had the highest ratios.

So, 37% is not a large minority? That is about the percentage of Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza ( including Jordan, the Mandate Palestine ARAB homeland. And THEY seem to speak for ALL palestinians with no problem

Jordan:Population: 6,198,677 (July 2008 est.)
West Bank:2,407,681 [1] population in the West Bank, excluding Israeli settlers.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: bobad
Date: 08 May 09 - 10:15 AM

When Hatemongering is Common Currency

Itamar Marcus and Barbara Crook

Ottawa Citizen, April 24, 2009 (online edition), April 27, 2009 (print edition)

The world reacted with outrage at the speech by Iranian President Ahmadinejad at the Durban Review Conference on Racism in Geneva. European countries stormed out of his talk and released an array of statements condemning his words.

But the real problem is not that an Ahmadinejad exists, or that he proudly and vociferously spews hatred against Jews and blames Zionism for the world's evils. The problem is that his views are anything but unique in the Muslim world.

Tragically, it seems that Western leaders are using Ahmadinejad as their radical Islamic whipping boy in order to content themselves that they are doing all they can to fight growing radical Islamic racism, its calls for a world without Israel and genocide of Jews, and its espousal of Holocaust denial.

In reality, the strong media and government reactions to Ahmadinejad's hate promotion serve only to highlight their hypocrisy in ignoring the same ideology when it's expressed by Arab leaders who have succeeded in making the Western world's list of "good guys."

Saudi King Abdullah - whom President George W. Bush kissed and to whom President Barack Obama bowed earlier this month -- has blamed Israel for terror attacks in Saudi Arabia: "We can be certain that Zionism is behind everything ... I don't say 100 percent, but 95 percent." [Saudi 1 Television, May 2, 2004]

Grade 9 children in Saudi Arabia are taught that "the hour [of judgment] will not come until the Muslims fight the Jews and kill them, until the Jew hides behind rocks and trees, until the rocks or the trees say, 'O Muslim! O servant of God! There is a Jew behind me. Come and kill him!"

Earlier this year, the head of the Department of Islamic Studies at Saud University pronounced that "Jews are the enemies of Allah." Dr. Walid Al-Rashudi also prayed for the extermination of all Jews: "Kill them one by one and don't leave even one." [Al-Aqsa (Hamas) TV, Jan. 12, 2009.

It is the very existence of the Jews, not their actions or even their Zionism, that fuels the rhetoric of many Islamic political and religious leaders.

"If the Jews left Palestine to us, would we start loving them? Of course not. . . . They are enemies not because they occupied Palestine. They would have been enemies even if they did not occupy a thing," said Egyptian cleric Muhammad Hussein Ya'qoub.

". . . You must believe that we will fight, defeat, and annihilate them, until not a single Jew remains on the face of the Earth." [Al-Rahma TV (Egypt), Jan. 17, 2009]

Is this any different from Ahmadinejad's calls for a world without Israel?

And look at Palestinian Authority leader Mahmoud Abbas, depicted by the West as a moderate to whom Israel is supposed to offer statehood. But the TV channel directly controlled by Abbas's office regularly runs educational programs to teach Palestinian adults and children alike that there is no state called Israel, and that all Israel's land is actually "occupied Palestine."

Palestinian children are taught that Israeli cities throughout the entire country - from Haifa in the North, to Jaffa (part of Tel Aviv), to Eilat in the south, are all actually Palestinian cities. Videos feature songs about a "Palestine" that erases Israel and a future when the Israeli cities Jaffa and Haifa will be "liberated."

Hamas, which has convinced many Western leaders and journalists that it spends more time building schools than bombing civilians, broadcast a sermon earlier this month depicting the Jews as enemies of humanity, inherently evil, seeking to rule the world and a dangerous threat to Muslims.

"The time will come, by Allah's will, when their property will be destroyed and their children will be exterminated, and no Jew or Zionist will be left on the face of this earth." [Hamas (Al-Aqsa) TV, April 3, 2009]

boy actor Why is Ahmadinejad's Holocaust denial so passionately denounced when Palestinian Holocaust denial is so utterly ignored? Hamas TV broadcast a special documentary last year, explaining that the Holocaust was a Zionist scheme to rid the world of elderly and handicapped, and to gain world sympathy. Fatah's PA TV broadcast a children's program that said explicitly that Israel burned Palestinians in ovens.


So why is Abbas presented as a peace partner, Egypt as a peace broker and Abdullah as a friend of the West? Why does the world not react with outrage to calls for "extermination" of Jews from anyone other than Ahmadinejad?

If the West is serious about peace, then all hatred must be condemned. And we must recognize that the real enemies of peace are not only the Ahmadinejads of the world, but the "friends" who have mastered the doublespeak of calling for peace in English while inciting hatred in Arabic.

PMW director Itamar Marcus was in Geneva during the UN Durban II conference and counter-conferences last week, and writes about how ordinary people can be convinced to participate in genocide.


Palestinian Media Watch

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: bobad
Date: 08 May 09 - 10:17 AM

Mahmoud Abbas: "I do not accept
the Jewish State, call it what you will"

by Itamar Marcus and Barbara Crook

Palestinian Authority president and Fatah chairman Mahmoud Abbas stated unequivocally Monday that he does not accept the Jewish state.

"I say this clearly: I do not accept the Jewish State, call it what you will," he said at a preliminary conference of the Palestinian Youth Parliament in Ramallah.

At the end of the conference, Abbas was presented with a large framed map of "Palestine," covering the entire area of Israel.

The photo of the map being held aloft by a smiling Abbas was featured in a prominent front-page position in both PA daily newspapers. Note that the word "Palestine" appears on the map in English.

The widespread condemnation of Iranian President Ahmadinejad's speech attacking Israel and Zionists at the UN's "Durban II" conference in Geneva made headlines around the world. But Western leaders and media seem reluctant to take the next step: Recognizing that the Iranian leader's views are not an isolated phenomenon, but are widespread in the Muslim world.

Palestinian Media Watch

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 08 May 09 - 11:39 AM

Was it ok for Jews to not own land? What the hell is that supposed to mean? The point is that the people who had been living on and farming that land for centuries were being forced into homelessness and being deprived of their livelihoods by a deliberate program that was being forced on them by the newly arrived European Jews, and this caused a backlash resulting in riots and uprisings. The act of aggression was the intentional program of displacement that the European Jews were implementing that they state themselves was for the purpose of committing ethnic cleansing, and for the removal of all Arabs from Palestine. The uprisings and riots were a response to that act of aggression.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 08 May 09 - 11:53 AM

"The world" did not act with outrage at Ahmadinejad's speech. Most of the world enthusiastically applauded that speech. Only the White Western countries (mostly imperialist, mostly colonizers) acted with outrage. Everyone else (all of the brown-skinned countries) thought what he said was very accurate (the Holocaust denial part was not included in the speech he actually gave).

However, I do think it's pretty revealing that some people believe that the White part of the world constitutes "the world". How convenient to have completely eliminated all of the brown-skinned people of the world with the touch of a keyboard. And how typical of those who support colonialist enterprises in the brown-skinned part of the world.

Abbas does recognize Israel. But he does not recognize it as a Jewish state. He recognizes it as a state of all of its citizens.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 08 May 09 - 11:58 AM

By the way, Abbas is no friend of the Palestinians. He is Washington and Israel's stooge. He works for them. He's only talking tough now because Israel's foolish behavior, and his complicity in it, has made him incredibly unpopular with his people.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 08 May 09 - 01:28 PM

It's not I who doesn't approve of him. It's the majority of Palestinians who don't approve of him. It's their call.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 08 May 09 - 01:40 PM

Israeli "Death to Arabs" Facebook group

"Journalist Dimi Reider came across this Israeli Facebook group called 'Death to Arabs'. Take a look

The messages posted on the group's homepage are calling for the killing of Arabs and Leftists. There is a debate amongst the group members, on whether all Arabs should be killed, or only some, while the rest should be deported. The photos uploaded to the group show the late racist Rabbi Meir Kahana and a small Meretz demonstration.

The important thing here is not that there are some several hundred racists in Israel, who wish to see the Arabs gone. We always had those - Kahana followers, transfer supporters, etc. The thing is that these people are not just scribbling graffiti in the dark anymore. They are registered to a public group, with their name and their picture, where all their friends can see them (for those of you who don't use Facebook - when someone joins a group on the site, all his friends get notified. In this case, they will all see some sort of statues line, declaring that 'X has joined the group "Death to Arabs'"). The people on this group don't think that they need to hide. They don't think that there is anything wrong with racism, hate-talk or incitement. In fact, they are rather proud of it."

The group looks as though it is five months old. It currently has 2,165 members. It seems that most of them are minors - your normal Israeli teens. Soon they will join the army.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 May 09 - 02:02 PM

The Hamas 'Peace' Gambit
By Charles Krauthammer
Friday, May 8, 2009

"Apart from the time restriction (a truce that lapses after 10 years) and the refusal to accept Israel's existence, Mr. Meshal's terms approximate the Arab League peace plan . . ."

-- Hamas peace plan, as explained by the New York Times



"Apart from that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?"

-- Tom Lehrer, satirist



The Times conducted a five-hour interview with Hamas leader Khaled Meshal at his Damascus headquarters. Mirabile dictu, they're offering a peace plan with a two-state solution. Except. The offer is not a peace but a truce that expires after 10 years. Meaning that after Israel has fatally weakened itself by settling millions of hostile Arab refugees in its midst, and after a decade of Hamas arming itself within a Palestinian state that narrows Israel to eight miles wide -- Hamas restarts the war against a country it remains pledged to eradicate.

There is a phrase for such a peace: the peace of the grave.

Westerners may be stupid, but Hamas is not. It sees the new American administration making overtures to Iran and Syria. It sees Europe, led by Britain, beginning to accept Hezbollah. It sees itself as next in line. And it knows what to do. Yasser Arafat wrote the playbook.

With the 1993 Oslo accords, he showed what can be achieved with a fake peace treaty with Israel -- universal diplomatic recognition, billions of dollars of aid, and control of Gaza and the West Bank, which Arafat turned into an armed camp. In return for a signature, he created in the Palestinian territories the capacity to carry on the war against Israel that the Arab states had begun in 1948 but had given up after the bloody hell of the 1973 Yom Kippur War.

Meshal sees the opportunity. Not only is the Obama administration reaching out to its erstwhile enemies in the region, but it begins its term by wagging an angry finger at Israel over the Netanyahu government's ostensible refusal to accept a two-state solution.

Of all the phony fights to pick with Israel. No Israeli government would turn down a two-state solution in which the Palestinians accepted territorial compromise and genuine peace with a Jewish state. (And any government that did would be voted out in a day.) Netanyahu's own defense minister, Ehud Barak, offered precisely such a deal in 2000. He even offered to divide Jerusalem and expel every Jew from every settlement remaining in the new Palestine.

The Palestinian response (for those who have forgotten) was: No. And no counteroffer. Instead, nine weeks later, Arafat unleashed a savage terror war that killed 1,000 Israelis.

Netanyahu is reluctant to agree to a Palestinian state before he knows what kind of state it will be. That elementary prudence should be shared by anyone who's been sentient the last three years. The Palestinians already have a state, an independent territory with not an Israeli settler or soldier living on it. It's called Gaza. And what is it? A terror base, Islamist in nature, Iranian-allied, militant and aggressive, that has fired more than 10,000 rockets and mortar rounds at Israeli civilians.

If this is what a West Bank state is going to be, it would be madness for Israel or America or Jordan or Egypt or any other moderate Arab country to accept such a two-state solution. Which is why Netanyahu insists that the Palestinian Authority first build institutions -- social, economic and military -- to anchor a state that could actually carry out its responsibilities to keep the peace.

Apart from being reasonable, Netanyahu's two-state skepticism is beside the point. His predecessor, Ehud Olmert, worshiped at the shrine of a two-state solution. He made endless offers of a two-state peace to the Palestinian Authority -- and got nowhere.

Why? Because the Palestinians -- going back to the U.N. partition resolution of 1947 -- have never accepted the idea of living side by side with a Jewish state. Those like Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, who might want to entertain such a solution, have no authority to do it. And those like Hamas's Meshal, who have authority, have no intention of ever doing it.

Meshal's gambit to dress up perpetual war as a two-state peace is yet another iteration of the Palestinian rejectionist tragedy. In its previous incarnation, Arafat lulled Israel and the Clinton administration with talk of peace while he methodically prepared his people for war.

Arafat waited seven years to tear up his phony peace. Meshal's innovation? Ten -- then blood.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 08 May 09 - 02:12 PM

Territorial concessions? The map in the link shows the territorial concessions Israel expects the Palestinians to make and it shows the reality that they are living with now. The water is used to show this reality in stark terms, since their freedom of movement is just as hampered as it would be if they were surrounded by water filled with enemy battleships...

http://strangemaps.wordpress.com/2009/03/30/270-palestines-island-paradise-now-with-a-word-from-its-creator/

Note that only the light green areas are supposed to be under full Palestinian control under the Oslo treaty (even though they are, in reality, not at all under full Palestinian control).

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 May 09 - 02:16 PM

"are supposed to be under full Palestinian control under the Oslo treaty (even though they are, in reality, not at all under full Palestinian control). "



And you claim the Palestinians have met their obligations of the Oslo accords???

If not, why should the Israelis?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 08 May 09 - 02:21 PM

The Israelis never did comply with Oslo. Never once. The Palestinians did comply with Oslo for a couple of years. However, that's not the point. The point is that the Palestinians have already lost most of what they ever had. The only people who have never made any concessions are the Israelis, who have only taken what belonged to others, and never, ever conceded a thing. Israel is in no position, under international law, to expect the Palestinians to make further territorial concessions.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 May 09 - 02:23 PM

"The Palestinians did comply with Oslo for a couple of years. "

Oh??



Care to mention what part of their obligations they complied with??

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 08 May 09 - 02:24 PM

There were no killings of Israelis by the PA for about two years after Oslo was signed, and they policed their own people on behalf of Israel during that time.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 08 May 09 - 02:25 PM

I should have said, no killings by the PLO.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 May 09 - 02:25 PM

"The only people who have never made any concessions are the Israelis, who have only taken what belonged to others, and never, ever conceded a thing."


Sorry, territroy occupied in defending against attack can be held until a PEACE treaty is signed. Since the Palestinians have no desire for peace, and have never signed such a treaty, why should Israle give up ANY of the occupied territory?

But in fact, Israel HAS- Gaza and the West Bank. so your statement " never, ever conceded a thing." is not true.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 08 May 09 - 02:29 PM

The Palestinians have most definitely signed such a treaty.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 08 May 09 - 02:29 PM

Gaza and the West Bank were never theirs to concede.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 May 09 - 02:30 PM

"After eleven rounds of talks in the summer of 1993, the Israelis and Palestinians reached a provisional agreement on partial autonomy in the occupied territories. This so-called "Declaration of Principles on Interim Self-Government Arrangements" (DOP) was not a regular peace treaty. It was an agreement that set out specific steps to reach a permanent solution to the conflict and established a five-year timetable over which to complete them.

The accords reached at Oslo set forth a process by which Israel would transfer portions of the West Bank and Gaza Strip to the control of a new body, the Palestinian Authority, which would be elected by the Palestinian people. The authority would guarantee Israel's security by fighting terrorism. This would enable the parties to build enough trust and confidence to proceed with negotiations on the "final status" that was to occur in 1999. Many of the most controversial issues between the two sides, including the future of Jerusalem, were left for the final status talks. The accord set up a joint Israeli-Palestinian economic cooperation committee to carry out economic development programs in the West Bank and Gaza, critical to the success of Palestinian autonomy.

On 13 September 1993, the DOP was formally signed. United States President Bill Clinton hosted the official signing ceremony. Israeli Foreign Minister Shimon Peres and PLO official Abou Abbas signed the accords, granting self-government to Palestinians in the Israeli-occupied Gaza Strip and West Bank, while Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin and PLO Chairman Yasir Arafat shook hands, a historic gesture. Clinton's statement that "Today marks a shining moment of hope for the people of the Middle East; indeed, of the entire world" captured the monumental nature of the event.

In September 1995, the Oslo Accords were followed up with an interim agreement (Oslo II), which expanded Palestinian self-rule by the withdrawal of the Israeli military from six large West Bank cities. The Israeli Army was replaced by Palestinian police forces, and elections for a Palestinian Counsel were held in 1996, during which Yasir Arafat was elected.
"

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 08 May 09 - 02:30 PM

*Gaza and the West Bank were never the Israelis to concede.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 08 May 09 - 02:34 PM

Israel is in violation of international law. It is illegal under international law for a country to colonize land that it has occupied by force. It is illegal for a country to move its own citizens into such occupied territory. It is required of such and occupying country, to protect the civilians of those areas, and to ensure their safety and viability. Israel is in violation of international law on all of those counts. And it is also in violation of UN resolutions requiring it to end its occupation of those areas.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 May 09 - 02:35 PM

But with Oslo, haven't the Palestinians agreed to end the violence, limit guns to police, and allow free access to holy places, amend their covenant, etc...?

On the Palestinian police force:
"As a Palestinian police officer, I will not hesitate to give my gun to anyone who approaches me and tells me he is going to commit an attack against the army or the settlers. I will even kiss the gun before and after the operation."

- a P.L.O. recruit from Ramallah for the Palestinian police (Iton Yerushalayim, 10 December 1993)


On the right of Jews to visit holy places in Judea, Samaria and Gaza:
"We expect the Israelis to give us back these holy places... We believe in freedom of religion. But Jews won't have rights there because these are our places."

- Hasan Tahboub, head of the P.L.O.-backed Supreme Muslim Council (The Jerusalem Report, 16 December 1993)


On the continuation of the intifada:
"Reteach the enemy the lesson of the intifada."

- from a leaflet distributed in Ramallah by Fatah, Yasser Arafat's faction of the P.L.O. (Iton Yerushalayim, 10 December 1993)

"The intifada will continue, as will the carrying of weapons in the territories and outside of them."

- Farouk Qaddumi, head of the P.L.O.'s Political Department, in a speech at a ceremony marking the closing of the P.L.O.'s radio station in Algiers (Yediot Aharonot, 10 August 1994)


On the ultimate goals:
"Our enemy is a lowly enemy. The Palestinian people know there is a state that was established through coercion and it must be destroyed. This is the Palestinian way."

- Farouk Qaddumi, head of the P.L.O.'s Political Department, in a speech at a ceremony marking the closing of the P.L.O.'s radio station in Algiers (Reuters, 10 August 1994; Yediot Aharonot, 10 August 1994)

They will fight for Allah, and they will kill and be killed, and this is a solemn oath. . . . Our blood is cheap compared with the cause which has brought us together and which at moments separated us, but shortly we will meet again in heaven. . . . Palestine is our land and Jerusalem is our capital.

- Yasser Arafat, from Arafat and the Uses of Terror, by Jonathan Torop, Commentary Magazine -- May 1997

"We will fight until a Palestinian state is established."

- Yasser Arafat, Chairman of the P.L.O., in a letter congratulating Saddam Hussein on Iraqi Independence Day (Yediot Aharonot, 24 July 1994)


"No Palestinian will ever be extradited to Israel. A decision has been made to this effect, and it is inconceivable to think that such a thing would ever happen."
- PA "moderate" Hanan Ashwari, confirming the PA's intention to violate a key Oslo obligation (Voice of Palestine, quoted by Arutz 7, Aug 14, 1997)


Still Waiting for PA Compliance
...the Israeli cabinet agreed on its expectations of the Palestinian Authority, prerequisites for a further Israeli withdrawal from areas of Judea-Samaria.The PA reacted by accusing Israel of "new tricks"--a line parroted by some media commentators--and that Israel was making it impossible for the PA to comply. But all of the obligations were agreed upon and signed into accords years ago. In return for these undertakings, the PA has achieved a mini-state, with control over major cities and scores of villages in Judea-Samaria and Gaza. The obligations Israel is insisting the PA meet, include:

* The revision of the PLO Covenant, most of whose 33 clauses contain references to Israel's destruction or call for violence against Israel
As early as September 1993, Arafat wrote in a letter to the late Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin that: "The PLO affirms that those articles of the Palestinian Covenant which deny Israel's right to exist, and the provisions of the Covenant which are inconsistent with the commitments of this letter are now inoperative and no longer valid. Consequently, the PLO undertakes to submit to the Palestinian National Council for formal approval the necessary changes in regard to the Palestinian Covenant." In return for that undertaking, Rabin recognised the PLO and agreed to negotiate with it.

In April 1996, the PNC voted for a six-month deadline for a legal panel to draft a new charter for the PLO. However, the deadline passed, with no panel ever having convened.

Last February, a month after documents attached to the Hebron Protocol obligated the PA to "complete the process of revising the Palestinian National Charter", the PA chief negotiator Abu Mazen said there was no need to amend the Covenant as the required changes had already been made.

However, the allegedly amended Covenant has never been published or made available, and is generally believed not to exist.

Israel wants the PNC's legal committee to "issue a statement specifying which articles have been annulled in accordance with the April 1996 PNC decision. Then, the PNC itself must reconvene and pass a new resolution affirming the statement by its legal committee concerning which specific articles in the Covenant have been changed."

* Reduce the size of the PA police force.

Israel accuses the PA of deploying nearly 36,000 policemen in areas under its jurisdiction, exceeding the limit prescribed by the Oslo accords by more than 50 per cent (other sources, including a PA human rights group, has put the true figure at closer to 85,000). Moreover, the PA has failed to give Israel a complete list of all police recruits for review and approval.

* Restrict official PA activities to areas under PA control

Israel has repeatedly demanded that the PA stop operating in Jerusalem. It wants an end to the activities in the capital of all PA officials, including those on the Temple Mount carried out by the PA's "Minister for Religious Affairs" Hassan Tahboub and Islamic Mufti Ikrama Sabri. It has repeated its call for Faisal Husseini's "Ministry for Jerusalem Affairs" to stop its activities at Orient House, the eastern Jerusalem building dubbed the "unofficial PLO HQ" in the city, and for an end to PA security services' operations in Jerusalem.

* The obligation to fight terror and prevent violence

Israel focused in January on three specific areas where the PA had failed to honour its commitments:

Preventing incitement and hostile propaganda. The government presented more than 80 statements made by PA officials and PA media in the past year "which constitute incitement to violence and hostile propaganda against Israel they have praised Hamas terrorists, threatened Israel with war, and accused Israel of injecting Palestinians with the AIDS virus, poisoning Palestinian food products and threatening to destroy the Al-Aksa mosque."

Israel said it expected officials to stop engaging in and encouraging incitement against Israel. "PA employees, preachers in mosques and others who incite to violence against Israel must be dismissed from their posts, prosecuted and punished. The PA must also end incitement to violence against Israel in the official Palestinian media (including radio and television).

"The PA should undertake a comprehensive public education campaign regarding the rejection of violence and terror and normalisation with Israel."

Transfer of terror suspects to Israel. The government named 34 individuals Israel has asked be handed over to face trial, including PA Police Chief Ghazi Jabali, wanted for instructing PA policemen to ambush and fire at Israelis; suspected killers of Israeli civilians; and suspected masterminds of bombings which cost scores of lives. To date, the repeated extradition requests have been ignored.

Confiscation of illegal firearms. Israel wants the PA "to systematically confiscate all illegal weapons and punish those illegally bearing arms. The PA must also act to prevent the smuggling of weapons into Palestinian-controlled areas by all elements, including by senior Palestinian officials and VIPs. PA officials caught smuggling weapons must be removed from their posts. Any weapons and explosives in PA possession or in Palestinian-controlled areas which violate the terms of the accord must be transferred to Israel."

- from the Canadian Friends of the International Christian Embassy in Jerusalem

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 08 May 09 - 02:37 PM

And by the way, the UN and the international community recognize Israel's pre-1967 borders. Those are the legal borders of Israel. If the Palestinians use force to defend their land, that is not an act of aggression, so it cannot be said that the Palestinians don't want peace. Israel is the belligerent who is occupying another peoples' land, and colonizing it so it is Israel who is violating the peace. By the standard used above, that would entitle the Palestinians to forcibly occupy Israel until it was willing to agree to live in peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 08 May 09 - 02:44 PM

Nevertheless, despite the attempt to divert the point I was making away from the point I was making (Oslo being an attempt to change the subject), the Palestinians are under no obligation to give up any more of their land. Israel hasn't got any right to expect them to give up any more of their land. The Palestinians have already given up most of their land as it is. Israel has no right to expect them to give up any more of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 May 09 - 02:50 PM

"The Palestinians have already given up most of their land as it is"

False statement.

Of Mandate Palestine, the area that is presently in Arab hands exceeds 75%. Including the West Bank and Gaza, it includes above 90% of the Mandate territory.

So, "MOST" is a slight exageration, even for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 May 09 - 02:52 PM

"it cannot be said that the Palestinians don't want peace."

It can , because they have repeatedly demonstrated BY THEIR ACTIONS that they do not want a peaceful solution as long as Israel exists.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 May 09 - 02:52 PM

1600

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 08 May 09 - 02:55 PM

If we're going to go by Mandate Palestine, then Israel has no right to exist whatever. Because according to the Mandate, the Jews were forbidden to establish a Jewish state in the area that they were allowed to regard as their home.

Violence in defense of their lands is not a violation of the peace. Until Israel ends the occupation, the Palestinians, under international law, have a right to defend their territory.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: bobad
Date: 08 May 09 - 03:32 PM

Hamas to kids:
Death is honor and victory

by Itamar Marcus and Barbara Crook, Apr. 3, 2009

Hamas continues its compelling message to children that death, not life, is the prime value. The following lyrics have been appearing regularly in a song on the children's program Tomorrow's Pioneers on Hamas TV: "Teach the children that death is honor and victory. Through death, we seek to bring the dawn and the day." [Al-Aqsa TV (Hamas), March 20, 2009]

While the words are being sung, a young girl throws darts shaped like missiles at a target shaped like the Star of David, promoting another repeating Hamas message - violence against Israel. When the target is hit and the Star of David falls, the young girl raises her hands in victory.

CLICK TO VIEW VIDEO

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: bobad
Date: 08 May 09 - 03:38 PM

Hamas Blood Libel: Jews drink Muslim blood
by Itamar Marcus and Barbara Crook, Apr. 5, 2009

Jews drink the blood of Muslims and believe that God wants Jews to hate Muslims, according to a Hamas TV skit. Performed before a live audience at the Islamic University in Gaza, the segment features actors playing a father and son, in traditional Hasidic Jewish garb, discussing their God mandated hatred of Muslims.

The skit opens as the father instructs: "We Jews hate the Muslims, we want to kill the Muslims, we Jews want to drink the blood of Muslims." It is later explained that Jews wash their hands before prayer, not with water, but with Muslims´ blood: "We have to wash our hands with the blood of Muslims."

Blood libels were a tragic part of Jewish history, as Jews were accused of using the blood of non-Jews for ritual purposes, especially the baking of Matzah for Passover. Blood libels created deep hatred and were an effective trigger for numerous pogroms and the murder of thousands. The Hamas accusation that Jews drink Muslim blood comes the week before Passover, the anniversary of many horrific blood libels.

Following is the full Transcript:

Father: "We Jews hate the Muslims, we love killing the Muslims. We Jews love to drink the blood of Muslims and Arabs.
[Turns to the audience:] Are you Arabs? Are you Muslims?
I hate you! Yes, I hate you, to please the Lord.

To please the Lord…"
...
Father: "Shimon, look, my son, I want to teach you a few things. You have to hate the Muslims."
Son: "I don't like them, I hate them."
Father: "You have to drink the Muslims' blood.
…
I repeat: You have to hate the Muslims."

Son: "I hate the Muslims."

Father: "You have to drink the Muslims' blood."
...
Father: "You have to stand next to me and pray, my son."
Son: "One moment and I'm coming."
Father: "Where are you going, my son?"
Son: "To wash [with water]."
Father: "To do WHAT?"
Son: "To wash before prayer."
Father: "Muslims do this, not us!
...
We have to wash our hands with the blood of Muslims."

CLICK TO VIEW VIDEO

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Lox
Date: 08 May 09 - 04:42 PM

"The skit"

So its a skit?

Ok - in a highly charged political context art often proliferates and flourishes where other things don't.

Being art, it usually isn't literal, but often makes a point via various mediums, ranging from satire and black humour to metaphor and caricature.

I don't speak Arabic so I don't know how the language is being used and I have no knowledge of Palestinian theatrical traditions.

So I would be hasty to make any kind of judgements about the "skit" described.

It is also illuminating to observe the comments underneath. There are none confirming or denying the accuracy of the translations.

But all of the above is really totally unimportant compared to the following.

When I checked out the websource for the video, palwatch.org, I found a brand new site under construction.

I also note that it is in fact .org.il

so it is a new israeli site dedicated to "watching palestinians".

Basically it is built by Israelis with an already formed clear Bias against palestinians, who have "translated" Arabic for a website frequented (if the comments on the youtube vid are any indication) by Israelis who already hold palestinians in contempt.

mmm hmmm

The last one of these that I commented on was MEMRI, a website whose accuracy and impartiality have been seriously contested and whose reliablity as providers of source material makes wikipedia look authoritative.


These videos do not serve as evidence of anything other than the stubborn determination of the poster to use whatever spurious support he can find for ...

... well what for ...

... what was the point ...

... an implication that palestinians are loonies, thickos and liars?


Which brings me to my next point.

I've noticed that in a few recent posts, some posters have ceased to refer to Hamas, but have chosen instead to refer to palestinians as a whole.

I also noticed that those who have a problem with the Israeli administration have consistently referred to that administration and its defence force and not generalized about Israelis or Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Riginslinger
Date: 08 May 09 - 10:14 PM

Here's the larger problem:

http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_4671.shtml


http://www.etherzone.com/2009/raim042209.shtml

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 09 May 09 - 04:42 PM

This is very interesting. I've just been reading some things coming from Israeli historians who are saying that there never was a Jewish exile from what is now Israel and occupied Palestine. They're saying it's common knowledge among historians in Israel that the myth of exile was fabricated by anti-Semitic Christians to show Jews that they had earned God's punishment. They're saying that the Jewish religion has, at times in its past, gone though periods of proselytizing and that most Jews today do not have any ancestral connections to Israel and occupied Palestine. And they also are saying that there were migrations out of the Middle East long before the question of the Romans came up that were by choice and not because of expulsion.

I had thought that perhaps these ideas were possibly coming from sources that might be questionable, but now it appears that Israeli historians seem to find it rather insulting for anyone to suggest that they didn't know about this all along.

Two books on the subject are When and How Was the Jewish People Invented? by Shlomo Sand, and The Myth of the Jewish Exile from the Land of Israel: A Demonstration of Irenic Scholarship by Yisrael Yuval.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 09 May 09 - 04:48 PM

Inventing an invention

By Israel Bartal

Review of Sands' book here.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 09 May 09 - 05:08 PM

Commentary on The Myth of the Jewish Exile from the Land of Israel: A Demonstration of Irenic Scholarship by Yisrael Yuval, here...

The Magnes Zionist

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 09 May 09 - 05:22 PM

LOL

I wonder if the person who provided a link to Israel Bartal's review of Sands' book actually bothered to read the review. Bartal is one of the people who are taking issue with Sands' assertion that the historians in Israel didn't know about the information in Sands' book all along. Bartal maintains that Israeli historians have always known what Sands writes about in his book.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 09 May 09 - 05:35 PM

Yes, I did read the review. Now you go read it again. My interest is academic honesty--something you seem not to care about. You cherry pick. I have always found it strange that you have never posted anything that even suggests Israelis have rights. So, imo, your interest is not anything to do with fairness. Ist is to do with the destruction of Israel.

You are so filled with haterd for Israel that you prove yourself to be what you are. A petty person. I will have no further interaction with you. It's like trying to reason with a disease. Have this and any other Israelbashing thread you want. When you attract the Stormfront folks you will have succeeded. A pox on you, Ms Carol Cunningham Dale. I hope your hatred consumes you.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 09 May 09 - 05:38 PM

If I had a nickle for every time the above poster told me they would have nothing further to do with me...

Please carry out the threat this time.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 09 May 09 - 05:45 PM

However, let's discuss the rights of Israelis. What rights do they have? Do they have the right to commit genocide and ethnic cleansing? No. They don't have that right. Do they have the right to dispossess an entire people and to completely thwart a peoples' right to self determination? No, they do not have that right.

Do they deserve the same rights as anyone else who is accused of committing these things? Yes, they do have those rights.

They have a right not to be subjected to collective punishment, so any Israelis who are not complicit in the above listed crimes have a right to be left alone.

Israelis have as much right to live where they are now as I have to live where I am now. But they don't have any more right to discriminate against the indigenous people of that region than I have to commit acts of discrimination against Native Americans.

Israelis have the same exact rights as anyone else... no more, no less.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 09 May 09 - 06:07 PM

And by the way, I did mention the main complaint that academics have with Sand' book when I said this in my original post on the subject...

it appears that Israeli historians seem to find it rather insulting for anyone to suggest that they didn't know about this all along

So the accusation that I've been cherry picking and that I don't care about academic honesty is as lame as all of the other smears and attacks coming from that poster.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: robomatic
Date: 09 May 09 - 08:10 PM

When folks make a claim of a legal right that transends warfare, they are trying to conjure some legal rights on the one hand, and to ignore the practical results of warfare on the other. The United Nations put together some border partitions in 1948 which were adjusted by a conflict initiated by bordering Arab states. In 1967 this happened again. The fact that someone recognizes Israel's 1967 borders now is much less significant than if they'd recognized 'em before, well, 1967. And why 'Palestinians' should have definite borders when Israelis do not is basically unfair. If Israel's borders are not recognized and are not secure, then why should anyone else's be?

The basic unfairness going on is that the basic concept of Israelis is they are the Palestinians, not the descendants of, for want of a better word, squatters. They regard themselves as the 'indigenous'. This attitude existed long before the modern state of Israel.

As for the assumption but actual accusation that this is a white versus non-white issue, that is a calumny brought in by various folks to make this a racial issue. There are plenty of black and brown Jews in Israel. (Come to think of it, there are plenty of all shades of Arabs in Israel). Where one sees some major racism are places like Sudan and Somalia where Arabs are treating blacks in ways that no one should treat animals.

The inhabitants of Gaza and the West Bank have been maintained there not so much by their desire to reclaim lost lands, but the lack of the surrounding Arab States to offer them new places to settle and maintain whatever constitutes their 'culture' that might distinguish it from any other culture. This is the nature of the 'genocide'. They are being maintained as a suffering multitude precisely with the aim of a genocide on the residents of the State of Israel. This is pretty obvious when you consider that the Arab 'Palestinian' way of life has been deterred by where they live, not how they live. If Israel gave way for the occupation of Israeli lands by these folks (most of whom were not born there) the genocide that would occur would be of the Jewish way of life there, and perhaps a great deal of the Jews there as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 09 May 09 - 09:11 PM

It's not possible to credibly claim that the Arabs in surrounding countries started a conflict that had already been underway in the form of the ethnic cleansing of hundreds of thousands non-Jewish Palestinians by Jews, using terrorism and outright massacres, and taking over Arab cities and villages for several months before Israel declared its independence. I know people like to try to make it look like the conflict started after Israel declared its independence, but that has been thoroughly disproven.

So the reality is that the Jews who became the government of the state of Israel were the ones who started the warfare during the months leading up to Israel's declaring its independence, and any territory it took during that time was taken in violation of the very United Nations initiative cited by the above poster. People can't both point to the UN borders and legitimately claim a right to violate them at the same time. It is illegal under international law for Israel to acquire territory by force, so it is illegal for Israel to transfer members of its own population into any territory outside of the pre-'67 borders. However, it is true that the pre-'67 borders are internationally recognized, and this is why so many people are saying that Israel needs to pull back to the pre-'67 borders, rather than to the borders outlined by the Partition plan.

The Jews who had been living in the area that is now Israel and occupied Palestine uninterrupted since biblical times are definitely indigenous to the area. Those are Mizrahim. The European Jews have no claim on that area whatever based on area of origin, and the Sephardim have some claim, by virtue of having been there for a while, but it is not as great as the claim that the indigenous Mizrahim, and the non-Jewish Palestinians have on the area.

The non-Jewish Palestinians (along with those Mizrahim whose families never left the area) are not squatters, their families having live in that area and having farmed it for thousands of years.

If people are going to point to the Jews of color who live in Israel as evidence of a lack of racism on the part of Israeli Jews of European origin, they are being very dishonest. The Jews of color in Israel are terribly discriminated against, and they were brought there to do the kinds of work that the European Jews didn't want to do, but that they didn't want non-Jews to be doing, either. So it most definitely is a racial matter, and a matter of European supremacism.

The Palestinians in the occupied areas definitely have a strong connection to the land they have lived on and farmed for thousands of years. It's true that some of the Palestinians who are now in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem were not born in those places. This is because they were born in the area that is now Israel.

By the way, these attempts to deny the real history of the Palestinians is also form of racism and it is cultural genocide. And it is a practice that has been entirely discredited.

I was reading a news item the other day that describes how one of the docents at the Israeli Holocaust Museum was fired because he pointed out to visitors, as they were exiting a building where it opens out to the peaceful scene overlooking the area, that the site of the destroyed Arab village of Deir Yasin, where the first massacre of the Nakba took place (several months before Israel declared its independence), could be seen from where they were standing there in the Holocaust Museum.

Really, hasbara fictions, like those posted in an above post, no longer have the power to mislead and brainwash people. There's just too much proof out there that entirely discredits he entire hasbara narrative.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Riginslinger
Date: 10 May 09 - 04:01 PM

This is an endless question. Recorded history doesn't go back far enough to determine who was there first.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 May 09 - 07:39 AM

If we're going to go by Mandate Palestine, then Jordan, the Palestinian Arab Homeland, has no right to exist whatever.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 May 09 - 07:44 AM

"It's not possible to credibly claim that the Arabs in surrounding countries started a conflict that had already been underway in the form of the ethnic cleansing of hundreds of thousands non-Jewish Palestinians by Jews, using terrorism and outright massacres, and taking over Arab cities and villages for several months before Israel declared its independence. I know people like to try to make it look like the conflict started after Israel declared its independence, but that has been thoroughly disproven"

No, it started in 1923 or so, as has been pointed out repeatedly.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 May 09 - 08:18 AM

Assuming you're right, Bruce, and I concede you know a lot more about it than I do, we can't change anything that has taken place in the past. What is the best course of action going forward?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 11 May 09 - 11:19 AM

And Jordan is not the Palestinian national homeland today, either (it is the Hashemite Kingdom), just as it wasn't under the mandate. Under the mandate, Palestine was the Palestinian national homeland. Under the mandate, what is now Jordan was a region of Mandate Palestine, called Transjordan.

_____________________________


If we're going back to the real origin of the conflict, rather than referring just to the start of the conflict that was being referred to in the post I was responding to - the war that involved Arab armies from other countries fighting in Palestine - then the start would be when the European Jews started displacing Palestinians from their homes and livelihoods and boycotting their labor.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 May 09 - 11:30 AM

" just as it wasn't under the mandate. Under the mandate, Palestine was the Palestinian national homeland. Under the mandate, what is now Jordan was a region of Mandate Palestine, called Transjordan."


So it was part of the mandate that it was not part of???


Transjordan was the ARAB MOSLIM HOMELAND portion ( 77%) of the Mandate Palestine territory. Palestine was the JEWISH HOMELAND portion.


"How did the Arab territory of Transjordan come into being?
The 1922 White Paper (also called the Churchill White Paper) was the first official manifesto interpreting the Balfour Declaration. It was issued on June 3, 1922, after investigation of the 1921 disturbances. Although the White Paper stated that the Balfour Declaration could not be amended and that the Jews were in Palestine by right, it partitioned the area of the Mandate by excluding the area east of the Jordan River from Jewish settlement. That land, 76% of the original Palestine Mandate land, was renamed Transjordan and was given to the Emir Abdullah by the British.

...
After the partition, Transjordan remained part of the Palestine Mandate and its legal system applied to all residents, both East and West of the Jordan River, who all carried Palestine Mandate passports. Palestine Mandate currency was the legal tender in Transjordan as well as the area West of the river. This was the consistent situation until 1946, 24 years later, when Britain completed the action by unilaterally granting Transjordan its independence. Thus the British subverted the purpose of the Palestine Mandate, partitioned Palestine and created an independent Palestine-Arab state with no regard for the rights and needs of the Jewish population.

According to Sir Alec Kirkbride, the British representative in the area, Transjordan was:

... intended to serve as a reserve of land for use in the resettlement of Arabs once the National Home for the Jews in Palestine, which [Britain was] pledged to support, became an accomplished fact. There was no intention at that stage of forming the territory east of the River Jordan into an independent Arab state.
In 1925, the British added 60,000 sq. km. of desert to eastern Transjordan forming an "arm" of land to connect Transjordan with Iraq and to cut Syria off from the Arabian Peninsula. The British continued to favor exclusive Arab development east of the Jordan River by enacting restrictive regulations against the Jews, even when Arab leaders sought Jewish involvement in the development of Transjordan.
"





NOTE:"Transjordan was:... intended to serve as a reserve of land for use in the resettlement of Arabs once the National Home for the Jews in Palestine, which [Britain was] pledged to support, became an accomplished fact."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 11 May 09 - 11:40 AM

The Palestine part of the mandate was the Palestinian national homeland. The part of Mandate Palestine what was called "Transjordan" was (and is) the Hashemite Kingdom, not the Palestinian national homeland.

I think Winston Churchill trumps Sir Alec Kirkbride. Churchill said that the Jews may find a home in Palestine, but that the indigenous non-Jewish Arabs of that area also retained a right to live there, and that the Jews were forbidden from creating a Jewish state or attempting to rule over the non-Jewish Palestinians in the area they were allowed to regard as their home.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: SINSULL
Date: 12 May 09 - 04:21 PM

Riginslinger asked: "What is the best course of action going forward?"
Can anyone here answer that?
Hundreds of posts for years now of "I'm right." "No. I'm right."

Any suggested solutions?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 12 May 09 - 05:02 PM

I've answered that question many times. Israel should withdraw from all land it is illegally occupying (all lands it took in 1967), and leave the Palestinians alone to establish their country in peace. Short of that, Israel should annex all of the lands it took in 1967 and give all of the people living within its borders citizenship and equal rights.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Wolfgang
Date: 13 May 09 - 11:05 AM

from resolution 242 (UNSC):

...the establishment of a just and lasting peace in the Middle East which should include the application of both the following principles:      
   
    (i) Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;

    (ii) Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force....

This is a demand for all parties involved, in particular part (ii).

CarolC's answer to Sinsull's question only addresses Israel which in my mind is not a way to peace. All parties have to say goodbye to a number of dearly held ideas. Israel has to say goodbye to the idea of a greater Israel (minor exchanges of land should not play a big role) and will have to withdraw from Golan and (nearly) all of the Westbank.
The surrounding Arab states (of the whole region) will have to acknowledge the right of Israel to exist. The Palestinians will have to do the same (acknowledge the existence of Israel at that place and in addition will have to say goodbye to the idea of a right to return (in exchange for monetary compensation).

Israel will have no right to interfere in any way with the new Palestinian state and that state will have to do all it can to make it impossible (as far as that goes) for its citizens to attack Israel in any way.

The last paragraph will take several years to implement after an accord. For these few years the sovereignty of Palestine will be slightly restricted (surveillance not by Israel, but by the UN or, better, neighbours in the name of the UN: Arab and Turkey in which both partners have trust)

One sided demands as are in abundance in this thread will never lead to peace.

Israel then (1967) accepted the resolution, most Arab states and the Palestinians rejected it. As long as both sides insist that the other side first implements what is most difficult for them and then perhaps the other part of the agreement may follow (or not) there will be no solution. If I was the Israeli prime minister, I would not give up the control of the Westbank or most of the settlements there without being sure (as sure as one can be; pacts always may be broken) that (ii) will be acknowledged at the same time. If I was a leader of the Palestinians I would not give Israel the feeling they can be safe from attacks without being given a trustworthy assurance of an interference free Palestinian state.

Until the time of an agreement settling all of the open questions or at least most of them one-sided demands are just propaganda and nothing else. Some people may swallow it.

"You first give me what I want/need most and then we'll see" is doomed to fail.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: bobad
Date: 13 May 09 - 11:24 AM

Seems reasonable to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 13 May 09 - 10:17 PM

The Palestinians and the surrounding Arab states have already acknowledged Israel's right to exist. Quite a few times, actually.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 13 May 09 - 10:20 PM

Also, it there would be a foreign involvement in Palestinian sovereignty for the first few years, it should include protection from any aggression on the part of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 13 May 09 - 10:25 PM

The resolution was accepted by Egypt, Jordan, and Israel from the outset, but was initially rejected by Syria. Only after the October War of 1973 did Syria accept the resolution, while all the Arab states (except Libya) accepted its principles at the Fez Arab summit conference in 1982. The most consistent rejection of Resolution 242 came from the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO), which from its inception in 1964 refused a peaceful settlement with Israel. After 1974, however, as the PLO moved toward the idea of a negotiated settlement with Israel, it increasingly based its objections to Resolution 242 on the fact that it dealt with the Palestinians as refugees, rather than as a people with national rights. Finally, in 1988, the PLO formally accepted Resolution 242 as the basis for a Middle East settlement, thereby meeting one of the conditions posed by the United States for opening contacts with it."

http://israelipalestinian.procon.org/viewanswers.asp?questionID=000473

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 May 09 - 07:20 AM

"The Palestinians ... have already acknowledged Israel's right to exist"

False statement. Hamas does NOT acknowledge it. You can't make it true by repearting it, when it is not true.

Or are you saying Hamas is NOT Palestinian, and NOT the legitiment goverment of Gaza? If so, Israel can wipe out Gaza without hurting Palewstinians, by your logic.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: SINSULL
Date: 14 May 09 - 11:57 AM

SIGH
So let's not find a solution; let's drag up every event for the past thousand years to prove we are right, you are wrong and (THIS IS CRITICAL) war is not only inevitable but you started it.

Neither side is totally at fault; neither side is totally innocent; neither side is really interested in peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 14 May 09 - 12:04 PM

There's absolutely nothing false about my statement. The Palestinian government has on many occasions recognized Israel's right to exist. At the time they did that, the government of Israel wanted nothing to do with Resolution 242. The government of Israel still wants nothing to do with Resolution 242.

Hamas is not internationally recognized as the legitimate government and representative of the Palestinians - Fatah is. Fatah under Abbas recognizes Israel's right to exist, which means that the internationally recognized government and representative of the Palestinians recognizes Israel's right to exists, and supports Resolution 242.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 14 May 09 - 12:07 PM

I would say that what the Palestinian side is interested in is freedom.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 May 09 - 06:53 PM

""I would say that what the Palestinian side is interested in is freedom.""

While I agree that NEITHER side is right, or can claim the moral high ground, in respect of HOW they pursue their objective, I also have to agree that Palestine is the side looking for freedom from the continual, and lethal, interference by what is supposed to be an Israeli "Defence" Force.

While we are looking at the history of this situation it's worth remarking that the Israelis' should be able to understand, and sympathise with, the Palestinian viewpoint.

After all, in 1948 the Israelis were murdering British troops in pursuit of the same goal.

The Irgun Zwai Leumi, an Israeli terrorist organisation, which included Menachim Begin (later to be leader of the Israeli government) among its members, was pinning down the tent flaps of British soldiers, pouring petrol over them, and roasting the occupants, or alternatively tossing in a couple of grenades, and shooting anyone trying to escape.

One member of my group of friends at school lost his father in this way.

A pity indeed that they DON'T realise that they are repeating history, but in reverse. In both cases they highlight the contempt they have for the rights of others, while always demanding that others respect their rights.

Small wonder they are hated.

Don T.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Aug 09 - 08:58 AM

Rights group: Hamas may have committed war crimes
         

Diaa Hadid, Associated Press Writer – Thu Aug 6, 5:52 am ET

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip – A prominent human rights group said there is "strong evidence" that Gaza's Hamas rulers committed war crimes by allowing militants to fire rockets from the territory, killing civilians in Israel, in a report released Thursday.

The 31-page report by the New York-based Human Rights Watch focuses on Hamas's actions in connection with Israel's three-week offensive in Gaza that ended in late January. Human Rights Watch, as well as other groups, have previously produced reports accusing Israel of committing war crimes during the offensive designed to stop Palestinian rocket fire.

"Hamas rocket attacks targeting Israeli civilians are unlawful and unjustifiable, and amount to war crimes," said Iain Levine of Human Rights Watch. But the report stopped short of clearly stating that Hamas militants were guilty of war crimes, with officials saying only a court could make that accusation.

More than 1,100 Palestinians were killed during the offensive. Palestinians said most were civilians, but Israel disputed that.

Three Israeli civilians were killed by rocket fire and 10 soldiers were also killed during the conflict that saw Israeli warplanes, tanks and artillery smashing Palestinian government buildings, and destroying and damaging thousands of apartments, schools and factories.

Hamas militants fired hundreds of rockets at southern Israeli towns, forcing thousands of civilians to hide in shelters or to flee. Many of those rockets were fired from crowded Palestinian neighborhoods.

Bill Van Esveld of Human Rights Watch said the intent of armed groups to harm civilians, and not numbers of people killed, determined whether they committed war crimes.

Van Esveld said the Islamic militant group, which is committed to Israel's destruction, violated international war rules by allowing fighters to launch rockets that either "deliberately or indiscriminately" targeted civilian areas. Hamas also violated rules of war by allowing militants to fire from populated Gaza areas, endangering the lives of civilians, by making them vulnerable to return Israeli fire, he said.

Van Esveld said in the specific cases where three Israeli civilians were killed by rocket fire there was "strong evidence" Hamas militants committed war crimes.

One Israeli civilian, Beber Vaknin, 58, was killed while in his backyard, about six miles (10 kilometers) from Gaza. Hani al-Mahdi, an Israel construction worker, was killed at a building site. Irit Sheetrit, a mother of four, was killed as she drove home.

Hamas took responsibility for each of the attacks on its Web site.

"It's clear evidence of intent to commit war crimes," Van Esveld said. He said other cases needed more investigation.

Hamas spokesman Ismail Ridwan said the report was "biased."

"Hamas did not use human shields and did not fire rockets from residential areas. Hamas does not target civilians," Ridwan said.

Israeli government spokesman Mark Regev referred queries for comment on the report to a 160-page Israeli document on the Gaza offensive released last week. It contains 20 pages of documentation of Hamas practices, including rocket attacks, and Israel's response.

The Israeli NGO Monitor, which critiques groups such as Human Rights Watch, criticized it for waiting for six months before issuing its report critical of Hamas though it contained "no new information." Gerald Steinberg, director of NGO Monitor, noted that the group already released two reports critical of Israel. "The fact that it (Hamas) is only now on their agenda exposes their biased priorities," he said.

Since fighting subsided in January, Hamas militants have held back from firing rockets, respecting an unwritten truce with Israel.

Hamas is already considered a terrorist organization by most of the international community.

Thousands of rockets fired by Palestinian militants in Gaza have killed 24 Israelis since 2001, according to Israeli police figures.