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England's National Musical-Instrument?

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Les in Chorlton 15 Apr 08 - 06:24 AM
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Les in Chorlton 15 Apr 08 - 08:41 AM
Effsee 15 Apr 08 - 08:58 AM
Jack Blandiver 15 Apr 08 - 09:06 AM
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The Borchester Echo 15 Apr 08 - 11:51 AM
Jack Blandiver 15 Apr 08 - 12:06 PM
Nerd 15 Apr 08 - 12:09 PM
ard mhacha 15 Apr 08 - 12:11 PM
Jack Blandiver 15 Apr 08 - 12:15 PM
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Jack Blandiver 15 Apr 08 - 12:37 PM
greg stephens 15 Apr 08 - 12:40 PM
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treewind 15 Apr 08 - 01:02 PM
Desert Dancer 15 Apr 08 - 01:40 PM
Nerd 15 Apr 08 - 02:00 PM
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John MacKenzie 15 Apr 08 - 02:18 PM
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irishenglish 15 Apr 08 - 03:49 PM
Jack Blandiver 15 Apr 08 - 03:56 PM
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GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice 15 Apr 08 - 04:00 PM
irishenglish 15 Apr 08 - 04:07 PM
Jack Blandiver 15 Apr 08 - 04:15 PM
GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice 15 Apr 08 - 04:20 PM
Ernest 15 Apr 08 - 04:21 PM
GUEST,Jon 15 Apr 08 - 04:28 PM
GUEST,The Mole catcher's unplugged Apprentice 15 Apr 08 - 04:39 PM
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Herga Kitty 15 Apr 08 - 04:45 PM
John MacKenzie 15 Apr 08 - 04:46 PM
irishenglish 15 Apr 08 - 04:47 PM
GUEST,Jon 15 Apr 08 - 04:53 PM
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GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice 15 Apr 08 - 05:00 PM
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Alan Day 15 Apr 08 - 05:34 PM
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Mr Red 16 Apr 08 - 02:10 AM
Ernest 16 Apr 08 - 02:26 AM
George Papavgeris 16 Apr 08 - 02:26 AM
Dave Hanson 16 Apr 08 - 02:40 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 Apr 08 - 03:19 AM
Georgiansilver 16 Apr 08 - 03:54 AM
treewind 16 Apr 08 - 04:12 AM
GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse 16 Apr 08 - 04:55 AM
Jack Blandiver 16 Apr 08 - 05:18 AM
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Jack Blandiver 16 Apr 08 - 06:44 AM
greg stephens 16 Apr 08 - 07:48 AM
Jack Blandiver 16 Apr 08 - 08:00 AM
glueman 16 Apr 08 - 08:04 AM
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Alan Day 16 Apr 08 - 12:00 PM
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Georgiansilver 16 Apr 08 - 12:20 PM
Jack Blandiver 16 Apr 08 - 12:31 PM
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Mr Red 16 Apr 08 - 01:52 PM
Ebbie 16 Apr 08 - 02:25 PM
GUEST,Ol' Smokey 16 Apr 08 - 02:33 PM
Jack Blandiver 16 Apr 08 - 03:28 PM
Alan Day 16 Apr 08 - 05:33 PM
Gurney 16 Apr 08 - 06:58 PM
Harmonium Hero 16 Apr 08 - 07:45 PM
GUEST,Jon 16 Apr 08 - 07:54 PM
Snuffy 17 Apr 08 - 04:09 AM
Alan Day 17 Apr 08 - 04:19 AM
Jack Blandiver 17 Apr 08 - 08:59 AM
Mr Happy 17 Apr 08 - 09:04 AM
Mr Happy 17 Apr 08 - 09:04 AM
Jack Blandiver 17 Apr 08 - 09:52 AM
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Harmonium Hero 17 Apr 08 - 10:03 AM
Jack Blandiver 17 Apr 08 - 11:20 AM
Harmonium Hero 17 Apr 08 - 12:02 PM
greg stephens 17 Apr 08 - 12:14 PM
GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse 17 Apr 08 - 02:27 PM
GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice 17 Apr 08 - 02:39 PM
GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse 17 Apr 08 - 02:56 PM
kytrad (Jean Ritchie) 17 Apr 08 - 05:35 PM
GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse 17 Apr 08 - 05:44 PM
GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice 17 Apr 08 - 05:48 PM
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GUEST,Chris P. 18 Apr 08 - 05:27 AM
GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse 18 Apr 08 - 08:15 AM
GUEST,Joe 18 Apr 08 - 08:57 AM
GUEST,glueman 18 Apr 08 - 09:07 AM
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GUEST,Chris P. 18 Apr 08 - 10:00 AM
GUEST,Joe 18 Apr 08 - 10:04 AM
GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse 18 Apr 08 - 10:15 AM
Georgiansilver 18 Apr 08 - 10:42 AM
GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse 18 Apr 08 - 10:46 AM
GUEST,Joe 18 Apr 08 - 10:55 AM
manitas_at_work 18 Apr 08 - 11:23 AM
GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse 19 Apr 08 - 05:30 AM
Harmonium Hero 19 Apr 08 - 02:52 PM
Jack Blandiver 27 Aug 08 - 02:49 PM
GUEST,Jim Martin 16 Sep 08 - 11:55 AM
GUEST,Jim Martin 16 Sep 08 - 11:56 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 16 Sep 08 - 12:15 PM
Jack Blandiver 16 Sep 08 - 03:35 PM
Jack Blandiver 16 Sep 08 - 04:25 PM
Jack Blandiver 16 Sep 08 - 05:25 PM
Roger the Skiffler 17 Sep 08 - 10:06 AM
GUEST,Jim Martin 17 Sep 08 - 10:56 AM
Jack Blandiver 17 Sep 08 - 11:41 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 17 Sep 08 - 02:23 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 17 Sep 08 - 02:44 PM
Jack Blandiver 17 Sep 08 - 03:14 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 18 Sep 08 - 06:39 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 18 Sep 08 - 07:02 AM
Fidjit 18 Sep 08 - 07:08 AM
Jack Blandiver 18 Sep 08 - 08:14 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 18 Sep 08 - 12:21 PM
Jack Blandiver 18 Sep 08 - 01:15 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 18 Sep 08 - 01:23 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 18 Sep 08 - 02:49 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 18 Sep 08 - 02:55 PM
s&r 18 Sep 08 - 04:27 PM
Spleen Cringe 18 Sep 08 - 04:40 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 18 Sep 08 - 05:03 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 18 Sep 08 - 05:23 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 18 Sep 08 - 05:36 PM
Phil Edwards 18 Sep 08 - 05:45 PM
Jack Campin 18 Sep 08 - 06:36 PM
Jack Blandiver 18 Sep 08 - 07:56 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 18 Sep 08 - 08:36 PM
Big Al Whittle 19 Sep 08 - 03:01 AM
Wolfhound person 19 Sep 08 - 04:06 AM
Jack Blandiver 19 Sep 08 - 04:27 AM
Phil Edwards 19 Sep 08 - 04:37 AM
Manitas_at_home 19 Sep 08 - 05:46 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 19 Sep 08 - 08:10 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 19 Sep 08 - 08:55 AM
Phil Edwards 19 Sep 08 - 09:27 AM
GUEST,Joe P 19 Sep 08 - 09:43 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 19 Sep 08 - 09:56 AM
GUEST,Howard Jones 19 Sep 08 - 09:58 AM
GUEST,Joe 19 Sep 08 - 10:01 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 19 Sep 08 - 12:26 PM
Phil Edwards 19 Sep 08 - 12:56 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 19 Sep 08 - 01:48 PM
GUEST,EricTheOrange 19 Sep 08 - 02:53 PM
Jack Blandiver 19 Sep 08 - 04:00 PM
Don Firth 19 Sep 08 - 07:08 PM
Jack Blandiver 20 Sep 08 - 04:14 AM
Big Al Whittle 20 Sep 08 - 06:38 AM
Tim Leaning 20 Sep 08 - 08:18 AM
Big Al Whittle 20 Sep 08 - 08:30 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 20 Sep 08 - 09:58 AM
Phil Edwards 20 Sep 08 - 01:12 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 20 Sep 08 - 01:46 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 20 Sep 08 - 03:43 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 20 Sep 08 - 03:56 PM
Jack Blandiver 21 Sep 08 - 05:36 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 21 Sep 08 - 06:38 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 21 Sep 08 - 08:42 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 21 Sep 08 - 09:37 AM
Phil Edwards 21 Sep 08 - 09:43 AM
Jack Blandiver 21 Sep 08 - 12:17 PM
Dave (Bridge) 21 Sep 08 - 02:41 PM
Fidjit 21 Sep 08 - 02:58 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 22 Sep 08 - 05:33 AM
GUEST,Working Radish 22 Sep 08 - 06:25 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 22 Sep 08 - 08:29 AM
Jack Blandiver 22 Sep 08 - 09:28 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 22 Sep 08 - 09:29 AM
GUEST,Ralphi 22 Sep 08 - 09:43 AM
Phil Edwards 22 Sep 08 - 11:16 AM
s&r 22 Sep 08 - 11:34 AM
Jack Blandiver 22 Sep 08 - 11:41 AM
GUEST 22 Sep 08 - 12:26 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 22 Sep 08 - 12:38 PM
GUEST,Ralphie 22 Sep 08 - 12:54 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 22 Sep 08 - 01:11 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 22 Sep 08 - 01:27 PM
s&r 22 Sep 08 - 01:33 PM
Don Firth 22 Sep 08 - 01:42 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 22 Sep 08 - 01:48 PM
Phil Edwards 22 Sep 08 - 02:05 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 22 Sep 08 - 02:07 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 22 Sep 08 - 02:53 PM
Jack Campin 22 Sep 08 - 03:42 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 22 Sep 08 - 03:47 PM
GUEST,Ed 22 Sep 08 - 04:25 PM
Jack Blandiver 22 Sep 08 - 05:49 PM
Phil Edwards 22 Sep 08 - 06:35 PM
TheSnail 22 Sep 08 - 07:40 PM
GUEST,caitlín 22 Sep 08 - 11:35 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 23 Sep 08 - 04:21 AM
GUEST,Curious Scot 23 Sep 08 - 04:39 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 23 Sep 08 - 05:10 AM
Jack Blandiver 23 Sep 08 - 05:37 AM
Jack Blandiver 23 Sep 08 - 05:45 AM
TheSnail 23 Sep 08 - 05:53 AM
Jack Blandiver 23 Sep 08 - 06:02 AM
Sailor Ron 23 Sep 08 - 06:14 AM
TheSnail 23 Sep 08 - 06:35 AM
GUEST,Spleen Cringe 23 Sep 08 - 07:19 AM
Jack Blandiver 23 Sep 08 - 07:53 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 23 Sep 08 - 09:30 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 23 Sep 08 - 09:45 AM
Phil Edwards 23 Sep 08 - 09:45 AM
GUEST,Joe 23 Sep 08 - 09:47 AM
Jack Blandiver 23 Sep 08 - 09:59 AM
GUEST,Curious Scot 23 Sep 08 - 10:10 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 23 Sep 08 - 11:13 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 23 Sep 08 - 12:25 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 23 Sep 08 - 12:31 PM
Sugwash 23 Sep 08 - 02:11 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 23 Sep 08 - 02:14 PM
Jack Campin 23 Sep 08 - 03:05 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 23 Sep 08 - 04:50 PM
Sugwash 23 Sep 08 - 05:50 PM
GUEST,Ralphie 24 Sep 08 - 02:25 AM
GUEST,Woody 24 Sep 08 - 03:29 AM
GUEST,banksie 24 Sep 08 - 04:18 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 24 Sep 08 - 04:30 AM
GUEST 24 Sep 08 - 04:35 AM
GUEST,Joe P at work somewhere else 24 Sep 08 - 04:42 AM
GUEST,Woody 24 Sep 08 - 06:08 AM
The Fooles Troupe 24 Sep 08 - 09:20 AM
Stu 24 Sep 08 - 09:34 AM
TheSnail 24 Sep 08 - 09:41 AM
The Fooles Troupe 24 Sep 08 - 09:44 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 24 Sep 08 - 10:19 AM
dick greenhaus 24 Sep 08 - 10:52 AM
GUEST,Woody 24 Sep 08 - 02:47 PM
GUEST,Terry 24 Sep 08 - 04:05 PM
The Fooles Troupe 24 Sep 08 - 10:17 PM
GUEST,Ralphie 24 Sep 08 - 11:25 PM
GUEST 25 Sep 08 - 04:04 AM
GUEST,a still cookieless ruth 25 Sep 08 - 04:07 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 25 Sep 08 - 04:48 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 25 Sep 08 - 04:50 AM
Oldguit 25 Sep 08 - 04:55 AM
TheSnail 25 Sep 08 - 05:01 AM
Surreysinger 25 Sep 08 - 05:09 AM
Phil Edwards 25 Sep 08 - 05:12 AM
DaveM 25 Sep 08 - 05:14 AM
GUEST,Mr Beard's Inane Apprentice 25 Sep 08 - 06:06 AM
The Fooles Troupe 25 Sep 08 - 06:24 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 25 Sep 08 - 07:00 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 25 Sep 08 - 07:45 AM
The Fooles Troupe 25 Sep 08 - 08:08 AM
The Fooles Troupe 25 Sep 08 - 08:09 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 25 Sep 08 - 08:15 AM
The Fooles Troupe 25 Sep 08 - 08:20 AM
The Sandman 25 Sep 08 - 08:27 AM
The Fooles Troupe 25 Sep 08 - 08:38 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 25 Sep 08 - 08:39 AM
The Fooles Troupe 25 Sep 08 - 08:45 AM
GUEST,Raphie 25 Sep 08 - 09:04 AM
Phil Edwards 25 Sep 08 - 09:10 AM
TheSnail 25 Sep 08 - 09:10 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 25 Sep 08 - 09:24 AM
The Fooles Troupe 25 Sep 08 - 09:50 AM
TheSnail 25 Sep 08 - 09:55 AM
The Fooles Troupe 25 Sep 08 - 10:14 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 25 Sep 08 - 10:53 AM
Surreysinger 25 Sep 08 - 11:03 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 25 Sep 08 - 11:10 AM
Surreysinger 25 Sep 08 - 11:45 AM
The Fooles Troupe 25 Sep 08 - 11:54 AM
Surreysinger 25 Sep 08 - 11:59 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 25 Sep 08 - 02:07 PM
Surreysinger 25 Sep 08 - 02:49 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 25 Sep 08 - 03:03 PM
GUEST,Ralphie 25 Sep 08 - 03:10 PM
Jack Campin 25 Sep 08 - 05:52 PM
Spleen Cringe 25 Sep 08 - 06:14 PM
Surreysinger 25 Sep 08 - 06:47 PM
The Fooles Troupe 25 Sep 08 - 07:24 PM
Spleen Cringe 25 Sep 08 - 07:39 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 26 Sep 08 - 02:28 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 26 Sep 08 - 05:54 AM
Jack Campin 26 Sep 08 - 06:06 AM
Surreysinger 26 Sep 08 - 06:54 AM
Phil Edwards 26 Sep 08 - 06:58 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 26 Sep 08 - 08:48 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 26 Sep 08 - 09:09 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 26 Sep 08 - 12:31 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 26 Sep 08 - 12:38 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 26 Sep 08 - 12:44 PM
Jack Campin 26 Sep 08 - 01:05 PM
GUEST,We Subvert Koalas 26 Sep 08 - 01:55 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 26 Sep 08 - 02:10 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 26 Sep 08 - 02:17 PM
GUEST,We Subvert Koalas 26 Sep 08 - 02:26 PM
Phil Edwards 26 Sep 08 - 05:23 PM
GUEST,We Subvert Koalas 27 Sep 08 - 06:08 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 27 Sep 08 - 09:24 AM
Phil Edwards 27 Sep 08 - 09:58 AM
Phil Edwards 27 Sep 08 - 10:31 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 27 Sep 08 - 11:33 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 27 Sep 08 - 03:00 PM
GUEST,We Subvert Koalas 27 Sep 08 - 03:28 PM
The Borchester Echo 27 Sep 08 - 04:11 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 27 Sep 08 - 04:55 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 27 Sep 08 - 05:41 PM
The Borchester Echo 28 Sep 08 - 03:59 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 28 Sep 08 - 04:34 AM
The Borchester Echo 28 Sep 08 - 04:45 AM
GUEST,We Subvert Koalas 28 Sep 08 - 05:01 AM
Jack Campin 28 Sep 08 - 06:16 AM
The Sandman 28 Sep 08 - 12:42 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 28 Sep 08 - 01:48 PM
Phil Edwards 28 Sep 08 - 03:09 PM
VirginiaTam 28 Sep 08 - 03:38 PM
The Borchester Echo 28 Sep 08 - 04:28 PM
Jack Campin 28 Sep 08 - 05:23 PM
GUEST,We Subvert Koalas 28 Sep 08 - 06:09 PM
s&r 28 Sep 08 - 06:16 PM
Tootler 28 Sep 08 - 07:05 PM
GUEST,Dad Van Frisk 29 Sep 08 - 04:39 AM
GUEST,We Subvert Koalas 29 Sep 08 - 05:01 AM
Surreysinger 29 Sep 08 - 05:44 AM
GUEST,Dad Van Frisk 29 Sep 08 - 05:59 AM
Big Al Whittle 29 Sep 08 - 06:18 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 29 Sep 08 - 06:21 AM
Oldguit 29 Sep 08 - 07:28 AM
TheSnail 29 Sep 08 - 07:38 AM
GUEST,We Subvert Koalas 29 Sep 08 - 07:57 AM
GUEST,We Subvert Koalas 29 Sep 08 - 08:13 AM
GUEST,Dad Van Fisk 29 Sep 08 - 09:04 AM
GUEST,We Subvert Koalas 29 Sep 08 - 09:27 AM
GUEST,We Subvert Koalas 29 Sep 08 - 10:17 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 29 Sep 08 - 12:57 PM
GUEST,We Subvert Koalas 29 Sep 08 - 01:58 PM
GUEST,Ralphie 29 Sep 08 - 05:25 PM
Don Firth 29 Sep 08 - 07:31 PM
Surreysinger 29 Sep 08 - 07:54 PM
GUEST,Ralphie 30 Sep 08 - 03:23 AM
TheSnail 30 Sep 08 - 03:30 AM
The Borchester Echo 30 Sep 08 - 03:37 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 30 Sep 08 - 03:55 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 30 Sep 08 - 03:58 AM
The Borchester Echo 30 Sep 08 - 04:08 AM
Ruth Archer 30 Sep 08 - 04:23 AM
GUEST,Dad Van Fisk 30 Sep 08 - 04:59 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 30 Sep 08 - 05:10 AM
Surreysinger 30 Sep 08 - 05:30 AM
Surreysinger 30 Sep 08 - 05:31 AM
Surreysinger 30 Sep 08 - 05:32 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 30 Sep 08 - 06:10 AM
Joseph P 30 Sep 08 - 06:55 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 30 Sep 08 - 07:37 AM
GUEST,Dad Van Fisk 30 Sep 08 - 10:48 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 30 Sep 08 - 12:47 PM
Ruth Archer 30 Sep 08 - 01:18 PM
Surreysinger 30 Sep 08 - 01:44 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 30 Sep 08 - 02:58 PM
Surreysinger 30 Sep 08 - 03:19 PM
Ruth Archer 30 Sep 08 - 04:30 PM
Surreysinger 30 Sep 08 - 05:13 PM
Surreysinger 30 Sep 08 - 05:14 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 01 Oct 08 - 05:41 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 01 Oct 08 - 05:43 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 01 Oct 08 - 06:16 AM
Joseph P 01 Oct 08 - 06:40 AM
TheSnail 01 Oct 08 - 06:44 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 01 Oct 08 - 07:13 AM
Derby Ram 01 Oct 08 - 07:46 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 01 Oct 08 - 07:57 AM
TheSnail 01 Oct 08 - 08:07 AM
Ruth Archer 01 Oct 08 - 09:20 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 01 Oct 08 - 09:46 AM
Will Fly 01 Oct 08 - 10:10 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 01 Oct 08 - 10:24 AM
Will Fly 01 Oct 08 - 10:32 AM
Surreysinger 01 Oct 08 - 11:14 AM
Surreysinger 01 Oct 08 - 11:16 AM
TheSnail 01 Oct 08 - 11:20 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 01 Oct 08 - 11:42 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 01 Oct 08 - 12:41 PM
Lonesome EJ 01 Oct 08 - 12:45 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 01 Oct 08 - 01:10 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 01 Oct 08 - 01:24 PM
Ruth Archer 01 Oct 08 - 01:41 PM
Don Firth 01 Oct 08 - 02:38 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 01 Oct 08 - 02:39 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 01 Oct 08 - 02:48 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 01 Oct 08 - 03:09 PM
Don Firth 01 Oct 08 - 03:15 PM
Ruth Archer 01 Oct 08 - 03:39 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 01 Oct 08 - 03:42 PM
Don Firth 01 Oct 08 - 03:54 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 01 Oct 08 - 04:29 PM
Don Firth 01 Oct 08 - 04:51 PM
GUEST,jm 01 Oct 08 - 05:22 PM
Surreysinger 01 Oct 08 - 06:49 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 02 Oct 08 - 07:28 AM
TheSnail 02 Oct 08 - 10:14 AM
Surreysinger 02 Oct 08 - 10:16 AM
Ruth Archer 02 Oct 08 - 10:43 AM
Spleen Cringe 02 Oct 08 - 10:57 AM
TheSnail 02 Oct 08 - 11:50 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 02 Oct 08 - 01:17 PM
GUEST,eliza c 02 Oct 08 - 01:26 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 02 Oct 08 - 01:30 PM
TheSnail 02 Oct 08 - 01:48 PM
Don Firth 02 Oct 08 - 01:50 PM
GUEST,Ralphie 02 Oct 08 - 01:53 PM
GUEST,Ralphie 02 Oct 08 - 02:03 PM
Phil Edwards 02 Oct 08 - 02:15 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 02 Oct 08 - 02:22 PM
Will Fly 02 Oct 08 - 02:26 PM
TheSnail 02 Oct 08 - 02:30 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 02 Oct 08 - 02:59 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 02 Oct 08 - 03:01 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 02 Oct 08 - 03:05 PM
Ruth Archer 02 Oct 08 - 03:10 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 02 Oct 08 - 03:14 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 02 Oct 08 - 03:21 PM
Surreysinger 02 Oct 08 - 03:43 PM
Ruth Archer 02 Oct 08 - 03:54 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 02 Oct 08 - 04:01 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 02 Oct 08 - 04:18 PM
The Borchester Echo 02 Oct 08 - 04:39 PM
Don Firth 02 Oct 08 - 05:06 PM
Dave (Bridge) 02 Oct 08 - 05:46 PM
GUEST,eliza c 02 Oct 08 - 05:57 PM
Ruth Archer 02 Oct 08 - 06:36 PM
Ruth Archer 02 Oct 08 - 07:00 PM
GUEST,Ralphie 03 Oct 08 - 12:32 AM
Spleen Cringe 03 Oct 08 - 04:13 AM
GUEST 03 Oct 08 - 04:43 AM
TheSnail 03 Oct 08 - 05:03 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 03 Oct 08 - 05:14 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 03 Oct 08 - 05:26 AM
Phil Edwards 03 Oct 08 - 05:37 AM
GUEST 03 Oct 08 - 05:42 AM
Surreysinger 03 Oct 08 - 05:56 AM
Phil Edwards 03 Oct 08 - 06:08 AM
Surreysinger 03 Oct 08 - 06:52 AM
TheSnail 03 Oct 08 - 07:09 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 03 Oct 08 - 07:11 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 03 Oct 08 - 07:46 AM
TheSnail 03 Oct 08 - 07:48 AM
GUEST,We Subvert Koalas 03 Oct 08 - 07:49 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 03 Oct 08 - 07:50 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 03 Oct 08 - 08:01 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 03 Oct 08 - 08:05 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 03 Oct 08 - 08:30 AM
GUEST,Howard Jones 03 Oct 08 - 08:32 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 03 Oct 08 - 08:36 AM
GUEST,eliza c 03 Oct 08 - 09:42 AM
Jack Campin 03 Oct 08 - 11:12 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 03 Oct 08 - 11:24 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 03 Oct 08 - 11:34 AM
Phil Edwards 03 Oct 08 - 11:45 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 03 Oct 08 - 12:14 PM
Don Firth 03 Oct 08 - 12:14 PM
GUEST,Ralphie 03 Oct 08 - 12:26 PM
GUEST,We Subvert Koalas 03 Oct 08 - 12:28 PM
The Borchester Echo 03 Oct 08 - 12:34 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 03 Oct 08 - 12:37 PM
GUEST,Coojeebear's Spectral Residue 03 Oct 08 - 12:48 PM
Phil Edwards 03 Oct 08 - 01:01 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 03 Oct 08 - 01:06 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 03 Oct 08 - 01:37 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 03 Oct 08 - 02:14 PM
Jack Campin 03 Oct 08 - 02:20 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 03 Oct 08 - 02:36 PM
GUEST,Ralphie 03 Oct 08 - 03:26 PM
Don Firth 03 Oct 08 - 03:26 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 03 Oct 08 - 03:48 PM
GUEST,Ralphie 03 Oct 08 - 03:52 PM
GUEST,Spleen Cringe 03 Oct 08 - 04:09 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 03 Oct 08 - 04:37 PM
Phil Edwards 03 Oct 08 - 05:46 PM
s&r 03 Oct 08 - 07:14 PM
The Borchester Echo 03 Oct 08 - 07:39 PM
Don Firth 03 Oct 08 - 08:07 PM
s&r 04 Oct 08 - 03:17 AM
Phil Edwards 04 Oct 08 - 03:48 AM
The Borchester Echo 04 Oct 08 - 04:48 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 04 Oct 08 - 04:56 AM
s&r 04 Oct 08 - 05:24 AM
s&r 04 Oct 08 - 05:37 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 04 Oct 08 - 06:07 AM
Jack Blandiver 04 Oct 08 - 06:12 AM
s&r 04 Oct 08 - 06:19 AM
Jack Blandiver 04 Oct 08 - 06:35 AM
Surreysinger 04 Oct 08 - 07:09 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 04 Oct 08 - 10:54 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 04 Oct 08 - 12:49 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 04 Oct 08 - 02:39 PM
Don Firth 04 Oct 08 - 04:38 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 04 Oct 08 - 04:45 PM
Don Firth 04 Oct 08 - 04:50 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 04 Oct 08 - 05:10 PM
Don Firth 04 Oct 08 - 06:27 PM
Phil Edwards 04 Oct 08 - 06:38 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 05 Oct 08 - 02:26 AM
Dave Hanson 05 Oct 08 - 02:51 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 05 Oct 08 - 03:10 AM
Phil Edwards 05 Oct 08 - 04:40 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 05 Oct 08 - 05:41 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 05 Oct 08 - 05:57 PM
Tootler 05 Oct 08 - 06:33 PM
s&r 05 Oct 08 - 06:56 PM
Don Firth 05 Oct 08 - 07:28 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 06 Oct 08 - 06:37 AM
s&r 06 Oct 08 - 06:52 AM
s&r 06 Oct 08 - 07:12 AM
catspaw49 06 Oct 08 - 07:33 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 06 Oct 08 - 07:46 AM
GUEST,Howard Jones 06 Oct 08 - 07:47 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 06 Oct 08 - 08:07 AM
Jack Blandiver 06 Oct 08 - 08:26 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 06 Oct 08 - 09:21 AM
GUEST,surreysinger at work 06 Oct 08 - 09:31 AM
GUEST,Dame Nellie (aka Ralphie) 06 Oct 08 - 09:48 AM
Jeri 06 Oct 08 - 10:23 AM
Dave the Gnome 06 Oct 08 - 10:33 AM
GUEST,Tom Bland 06 Oct 08 - 10:37 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 06 Oct 08 - 10:43 AM
Jeri 06 Oct 08 - 11:00 AM
TheSnail 06 Oct 08 - 11:11 AM
GUEST,Tom Bland 06 Oct 08 - 11:23 AM
Jack Blandiver 06 Oct 08 - 11:42 AM
GUEST,Howard Jones 06 Oct 08 - 12:28 PM
s&r 06 Oct 08 - 01:14 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 06 Oct 08 - 02:15 PM
Don Firth 06 Oct 08 - 02:42 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 06 Oct 08 - 02:56 PM
Ruth Archer 06 Oct 08 - 02:57 PM
Don Firth 06 Oct 08 - 04:13 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 06 Oct 08 - 05:30 PM
Ruth Archer 06 Oct 08 - 05:41 PM
GUEST,Woody 06 Oct 08 - 06:14 PM
Don Firth 06 Oct 08 - 07:09 PM
catspaw49 07 Oct 08 - 03:03 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 07 Oct 08 - 05:05 AM
Don Firth 07 Oct 08 - 01:30 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 07 Oct 08 - 02:53 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 07 Oct 08 - 02:59 PM
Don Firth 07 Oct 08 - 02:59 PM
GUEST,Howard Jones 07 Oct 08 - 03:13 PM
Jack Blandiver 07 Oct 08 - 03:19 PM
Don Firth 07 Oct 08 - 04:11 PM
John MacKenzie 07 Oct 08 - 04:29 PM
Jack Blandiver 07 Oct 08 - 04:33 PM
Ruth Archer 07 Oct 08 - 04:39 PM
Don Firth 07 Oct 08 - 04:55 PM
The Borchester Echo 07 Oct 08 - 05:07 PM
GUEST,Woody 07 Oct 08 - 05:32 PM
Don Firth 07 Oct 08 - 05:42 PM
Derby Ram 07 Oct 08 - 08:23 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 08 Oct 08 - 05:39 AM
Ruth Archer 08 Oct 08 - 05:54 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 08 Oct 08 - 06:15 AM
Jack Blandiver 08 Oct 08 - 06:18 AM
TheSnail 08 Oct 08 - 06:33 AM
Joseph P 08 Oct 08 - 06:34 AM
Ruth Archer 08 Oct 08 - 06:37 AM
GUEST,Ed 08 Oct 08 - 06:56 AM
The Borchester Echo 08 Oct 08 - 07:19 AM
Joseph P 08 Oct 08 - 07:24 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 08 Oct 08 - 12:36 PM
TheSnail 08 Oct 08 - 12:51 PM
Ruth Archer 08 Oct 08 - 12:56 PM
The Borchester Echo 08 Oct 08 - 12:58 PM
KB in Iowa 08 Oct 08 - 01:34 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 08 Oct 08 - 02:49 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 08 Oct 08 - 02:54 PM
GUEST,eliza c 08 Oct 08 - 03:50 PM
Ruth Archer 08 Oct 08 - 04:07 PM
GUEST,Ed 08 Oct 08 - 04:16 PM
Phil Edwards 08 Oct 08 - 04:40 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 08 Oct 08 - 05:25 PM
Don Firth 08 Oct 08 - 05:28 PM
GUEST,Woody 08 Oct 08 - 05:30 PM
GUEST,Smokey 08 Oct 08 - 07:46 PM
Don Firth 08 Oct 08 - 09:47 PM
Don Firth 08 Oct 08 - 10:05 PM
GUEST,Smokey 08 Oct 08 - 11:22 PM
Don Firth 08 Oct 08 - 11:58 PM
Don Firth 09 Oct 08 - 12:00 AM
GUEST,Smokey 09 Oct 08 - 12:50 AM
Don Firth 09 Oct 08 - 01:19 AM
GUEST,Smokey 09 Oct 08 - 01:45 AM
s&r 09 Oct 08 - 02:41 AM
GUEST,Woody 09 Oct 08 - 03:13 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 09 Oct 08 - 06:03 AM
Ruth Archer 09 Oct 08 - 06:21 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 09 Oct 08 - 06:36 AM
Ruth Archer 09 Oct 08 - 06:52 AM
GUEST,Woody 09 Oct 08 - 06:58 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 09 Oct 08 - 07:34 AM
Jack Blandiver 09 Oct 08 - 08:27 AM
The Fooles Troupe 09 Oct 08 - 09:24 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 09 Oct 08 - 09:42 AM
Ruth Archer 09 Oct 08 - 09:55 AM
Jack Blandiver 09 Oct 08 - 10:22 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 09 Oct 08 - 10:32 AM
Ruth Archer 09 Oct 08 - 10:52 AM
Will Fly 09 Oct 08 - 10:58 AM
Joseph P 09 Oct 08 - 10:59 AM
Ruth Archer 09 Oct 08 - 11:06 AM
Joseph P 09 Oct 08 - 11:16 AM
Paul Burke 09 Oct 08 - 11:18 AM
Sailor Ron 09 Oct 08 - 11:53 AM
Spleen Cringe 09 Oct 08 - 12:07 PM
The Borchester Echo 09 Oct 08 - 12:11 PM
The Sandman 09 Oct 08 - 12:21 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 09 Oct 08 - 01:06 PM
Jack Blandiver 09 Oct 08 - 01:22 PM
Don Firth 09 Oct 08 - 04:16 PM
Don Firth 09 Oct 08 - 04:36 PM
s&r 09 Oct 08 - 04:48 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 09 Oct 08 - 04:52 PM
GUEST,Woody 10 Oct 08 - 02:55 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 10 Oct 08 - 04:21 AM
GUEST,eliza c 10 Oct 08 - 05:06 AM
The Borchester Echo 10 Oct 08 - 05:37 AM
Will Fly 10 Oct 08 - 05:46 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 10 Oct 08 - 06:07 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 10 Oct 08 - 06:44 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 10 Oct 08 - 07:08 AM
Ruth Archer 10 Oct 08 - 07:16 AM
Jack Blandiver 10 Oct 08 - 08:32 AM
Phil Edwards 10 Oct 08 - 11:28 AM
GUEST,eliza c 10 Oct 08 - 11:51 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 10 Oct 08 - 12:15 PM
Jack Blandiver 10 Oct 08 - 12:17 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 10 Oct 08 - 01:14 PM
Jack Blandiver 10 Oct 08 - 01:53 PM
Don Firth 10 Oct 08 - 02:07 PM
Phil Edwards 10 Oct 08 - 02:16 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 10 Oct 08 - 03:19 PM
GUEST,Woody 10 Oct 08 - 03:27 PM
Don Firth 10 Oct 08 - 03:54 PM
Don Firth 10 Oct 08 - 04:47 PM
GUEST,eliza c 10 Oct 08 - 05:58 PM
Jack Campin 10 Oct 08 - 07:19 PM
TheSnail 10 Oct 08 - 08:36 PM
Surreysinger 10 Oct 08 - 09:12 PM
Don Firth 10 Oct 08 - 10:29 PM
GUEST,Smokey 10 Oct 08 - 10:35 PM
Don Firth 11 Oct 08 - 01:06 AM
Don Firth 11 Oct 08 - 01:08 AM
Jack Campin 11 Oct 08 - 02:17 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 11 Oct 08 - 06:05 AM
Jack Blandiver 11 Oct 08 - 06:18 AM
Stu 11 Oct 08 - 07:58 AM
s&r 11 Oct 08 - 08:48 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 11 Oct 08 - 11:38 AM
Don Firth 11 Oct 08 - 12:56 PM
The Borchester Echo 11 Oct 08 - 01:25 PM
GUEST,Smokey 11 Oct 08 - 02:00 PM
GUEST,Traddies Against Racism 11 Oct 08 - 02:06 PM
The Borchester Echo 11 Oct 08 - 02:21 PM
Don Firth 11 Oct 08 - 02:29 PM
GUEST,Smokey 11 Oct 08 - 02:30 PM
The Borchester Echo 11 Oct 08 - 02:47 PM
Don Firth 11 Oct 08 - 03:51 PM
GUEST,Smokey 11 Oct 08 - 03:53 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 11 Oct 08 - 04:41 PM
Jack Campin 11 Oct 08 - 05:09 PM
Don Firth 11 Oct 08 - 05:17 PM
Will Fly 11 Oct 08 - 05:49 PM
GUEST,Smokey 11 Oct 08 - 07:00 PM
Tootler 11 Oct 08 - 11:23 PM
Don Firth 12 Oct 08 - 12:20 AM
Will Fly 12 Oct 08 - 04:57 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 12 Oct 08 - 05:47 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 12 Oct 08 - 06:04 AM
GUEST 12 Oct 08 - 06:40 AM
GUEST,Woody 12 Oct 08 - 06:41 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 12 Oct 08 - 06:52 AM
Jack Campin 12 Oct 08 - 07:03 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 12 Oct 08 - 12:09 PM
Phil Edwards 12 Oct 08 - 12:37 PM
peregrina 12 Oct 08 - 01:01 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 12 Oct 08 - 01:11 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 12 Oct 08 - 01:12 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 12 Oct 08 - 01:39 PM
peregrina 12 Oct 08 - 01:39 PM
GUEST 12 Oct 08 - 01:42 PM
peregrina 12 Oct 08 - 01:54 PM
Don Firth 12 Oct 08 - 03:06 PM
GUEST,Smokey 12 Oct 08 - 04:42 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 12 Oct 08 - 05:10 PM
GUEST,Smokey 12 Oct 08 - 05:11 PM
GUEST,eliza f c 12 Oct 08 - 06:22 PM
GUEST,Woody 12 Oct 08 - 06:25 PM
GUEST,Woody 12 Oct 08 - 06:29 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 13 Oct 08 - 06:32 AM
Stu 13 Oct 08 - 06:59 AM
GUEST,baz parkes 13 Oct 08 - 07:36 AM
Jack Blandiver 13 Oct 08 - 07:50 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 13 Oct 08 - 10:05 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 13 Oct 08 - 11:11 AM
Joseph P 13 Oct 08 - 11:27 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 13 Oct 08 - 11:42 AM
Stu 13 Oct 08 - 12:01 PM
Phil Edwards 13 Oct 08 - 12:14 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 13 Oct 08 - 12:31 PM
Jack Blandiver 13 Oct 08 - 12:35 PM
Ruth Archer 13 Oct 08 - 01:20 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 13 Oct 08 - 01:34 PM
Spleen Cringe 13 Oct 08 - 01:35 PM
Stu 13 Oct 08 - 01:39 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 13 Oct 08 - 01:48 PM
Ruth Archer 13 Oct 08 - 02:01 PM
Don Firth 13 Oct 08 - 02:21 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 13 Oct 08 - 02:35 PM
GUEST,Woody 13 Oct 08 - 02:56 PM
Don Firth 13 Oct 08 - 03:13 PM
Jack Blandiver 13 Oct 08 - 03:21 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 13 Oct 08 - 03:53 PM
Gervase 13 Oct 08 - 04:31 PM
s&r 13 Oct 08 - 04:56 PM
Phil Edwards 13 Oct 08 - 05:01 PM
GUEST,Woody 13 Oct 08 - 05:06 PM
Don Firth 13 Oct 08 - 05:34 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 13 Oct 08 - 05:38 PM
Ruth Archer 13 Oct 08 - 05:50 PM
Phil Edwards 13 Oct 08 - 05:54 PM
GUEST,Smokey 13 Oct 08 - 06:02 PM
Jack Blandiver 13 Oct 08 - 06:44 PM
Don Firth 13 Oct 08 - 07:13 PM
GUEST,Ralphie 13 Oct 08 - 08:03 PM
GUEST,julia 13 Oct 08 - 09:10 PM
Malcolm Douglas 13 Oct 08 - 10:13 PM
GUEST,Woody 14 Oct 08 - 03:00 AM
s&r 14 Oct 08 - 03:30 AM
Jack Blandiver 14 Oct 08 - 04:30 AM
GUEST,Woody 14 Oct 08 - 04:40 AM
TheSnail 14 Oct 08 - 04:45 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 14 Oct 08 - 05:36 AM
Jack Blandiver 14 Oct 08 - 05:41 AM
Gervase 14 Oct 08 - 05:53 AM
Jack Blandiver 14 Oct 08 - 06:00 AM
Gervase 14 Oct 08 - 06:09 AM
GUEST,Working Radish 14 Oct 08 - 06:28 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 14 Oct 08 - 06:35 AM
Jack Blandiver 14 Oct 08 - 06:41 AM
Ruth Archer 14 Oct 08 - 06:44 AM
Stu 14 Oct 08 - 06:47 AM
GUEST 14 Oct 08 - 06:58 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 14 Oct 08 - 08:50 AM
GUEST,eliza c 14 Oct 08 - 09:09 AM
Stu 14 Oct 08 - 09:38 AM
Surreysinger 14 Oct 08 - 09:53 AM
Ruth Archer 14 Oct 08 - 10:29 AM
catspaw49 14 Oct 08 - 11:02 AM
The Borchester Echo 14 Oct 08 - 11:26 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 14 Oct 08 - 11:48 AM
Jack Blandiver 14 Oct 08 - 12:40 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 14 Oct 08 - 01:01 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 14 Oct 08 - 01:14 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 14 Oct 08 - 01:23 PM
Ruth Archer 14 Oct 08 - 01:30 PM
Phil Edwards 14 Oct 08 - 01:47 PM
Will Fly 14 Oct 08 - 01:51 PM
Gervase 14 Oct 08 - 02:02 PM
Ruth Archer 14 Oct 08 - 02:16 PM
Don Firth 14 Oct 08 - 02:32 PM
The Borchester Echo 14 Oct 08 - 02:40 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 14 Oct 08 - 03:17 PM
GUEST,Smokey 14 Oct 08 - 03:21 PM
Don Firth 14 Oct 08 - 03:45 PM
Darowyn 14 Oct 08 - 03:48 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 14 Oct 08 - 03:48 PM
GUEST,Woody 14 Oct 08 - 05:30 PM
The Sandman 14 Oct 08 - 05:41 PM
Jack Campin 14 Oct 08 - 06:22 PM
GUEST,Ralphie 14 Oct 08 - 06:51 PM
Sue Allan 14 Oct 08 - 07:08 PM
GUEST,Ralphie 14 Oct 08 - 07:16 PM
Ruth Archer 14 Oct 08 - 07:51 PM
Stu 15 Oct 08 - 02:24 AM
peregrina 15 Oct 08 - 02:51 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 15 Oct 08 - 07:45 AM
Phil Edwards 15 Oct 08 - 08:02 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 15 Oct 08 - 08:45 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 15 Oct 08 - 09:00 AM
Phil Edwards 15 Oct 08 - 09:15 AM
Phil Edwards 15 Oct 08 - 09:23 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 15 Oct 08 - 10:04 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 15 Oct 08 - 12:55 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 15 Oct 08 - 01:06 PM
Phil Edwards 15 Oct 08 - 01:17 PM
GUEST,Volgadon (still awaiting straight answers) 15 Oct 08 - 01:26 PM
GUEST,Woody 15 Oct 08 - 01:45 PM
catspaw49 15 Oct 08 - 01:48 PM
Phil Edwards 15 Oct 08 - 02:09 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 15 Oct 08 - 02:48 PM
Jack Blandiver 15 Oct 08 - 03:05 PM
Phil Edwards 15 Oct 08 - 03:12 PM
GUEST,Woody 15 Oct 08 - 03:22 PM
GUEST,Woody 15 Oct 08 - 03:24 PM
Ruth Archer 15 Oct 08 - 03:45 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 15 Oct 08 - 03:47 PM
catspaw49 15 Oct 08 - 04:51 PM
Don Firth 15 Oct 08 - 05:00 PM
GUEST,Volgadon Says Answer Pip!!!! 15 Oct 08 - 05:13 PM
GUEST,Smokey 15 Oct 08 - 05:26 PM
s&r 15 Oct 08 - 06:44 PM
Tootler 15 Oct 08 - 07:09 PM
catspaw49 15 Oct 08 - 08:48 PM
Ruth Archer 16 Oct 08 - 04:02 AM
Stu 16 Oct 08 - 04:18 AM
The Borchester Echo 16 Oct 08 - 04:21 AM
Ruth Archer 16 Oct 08 - 04:22 AM
Ruth Archer 16 Oct 08 - 04:51 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 16 Oct 08 - 06:11 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 16 Oct 08 - 06:52 AM
GUEST,Woody 16 Oct 08 - 07:05 AM
Joseph P 16 Oct 08 - 07:13 AM
Ruth Archer 16 Oct 08 - 07:50 AM
TheSnail 16 Oct 08 - 08:08 AM
catspaw49 16 Oct 08 - 08:19 AM
Ruth Archer 16 Oct 08 - 08:19 AM
TheSnail 16 Oct 08 - 08:51 AM
GUEST,Working Radish 16 Oct 08 - 08:55 AM
Ruth Archer 16 Oct 08 - 09:22 AM
Stu 16 Oct 08 - 09:56 AM
Ruth Archer 16 Oct 08 - 10:13 AM
KB in Iowa 16 Oct 08 - 10:31 AM
catspaw49 16 Oct 08 - 10:39 AM
Jack Blandiver 16 Oct 08 - 11:07 AM
Jack Blandiver 16 Oct 08 - 11:19 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 16 Oct 08 - 12:14 PM
GUEST,Smokey 16 Oct 08 - 01:16 PM
KB in Iowa 16 Oct 08 - 01:25 PM
GUEST,Woody 16 Oct 08 - 01:58 PM
GUEST,Woody 16 Oct 08 - 02:02 PM
peregrina 16 Oct 08 - 02:18 PM
Phil Edwards 16 Oct 08 - 02:18 PM
peregrina 16 Oct 08 - 02:19 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 16 Oct 08 - 02:21 PM
Ruth Archer 16 Oct 08 - 02:41 PM
GUEST,Woody 16 Oct 08 - 02:42 PM
The Sandman 16 Oct 08 - 02:56 PM
Jack Blandiver 17 Oct 08 - 06:03 AM
Jack Blandiver 17 Oct 08 - 06:04 AM
Jack Blandiver 17 Oct 08 - 06:05 AM
Will Fly 17 Oct 08 - 06:07 AM
Darowyn 17 Oct 08 - 06:23 AM
Will Fly 17 Oct 08 - 06:28 AM
Jack Blandiver 17 Oct 08 - 07:01 AM
The Sandman 17 Oct 08 - 07:06 AM
Will Fly 17 Oct 08 - 07:13 AM
Will Fly 17 Oct 08 - 07:19 AM
Ruth Archer 17 Oct 08 - 08:02 AM
Jack Blandiver 17 Oct 08 - 08:22 AM
Jack Campin 17 Oct 08 - 08:54 AM
TheSnail 17 Oct 08 - 09:38 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 17 Oct 08 - 10:47 AM
GUEST,Surreysinger at work 17 Oct 08 - 11:13 AM
Ruth Archer 17 Oct 08 - 11:29 AM
The Sandman 17 Oct 08 - 12:58 PM
The Sandman 17 Oct 08 - 01:01 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 17 Oct 08 - 01:02 PM
Don Firth 17 Oct 08 - 01:45 PM
GUEST,Woody 17 Oct 08 - 02:48 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 17 Oct 08 - 02:57 PM
Phil Edwards 17 Oct 08 - 03:39 PM
GUEST,Smokey 17 Oct 08 - 08:57 PM
Don Firth 18 Oct 08 - 12:51 AM
GUEST,Smokey 18 Oct 08 - 01:51 AM
GUEST,Woody 18 Oct 08 - 04:41 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 18 Oct 08 - 07:46 AM
GUEST,Woody 18 Oct 08 - 10:25 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 18 Oct 08 - 12:26 PM
s&r 18 Oct 08 - 12:31 PM
Phil Edwards 18 Oct 08 - 03:14 PM
GUEST,Smokey 18 Oct 08 - 04:27 PM
Jack Blandiver 18 Oct 08 - 04:45 PM
Ruth Archer 18 Oct 08 - 04:55 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 18 Oct 08 - 04:58 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 18 Oct 08 - 05:07 PM
GUEST,Smokey 18 Oct 08 - 05:21 PM
melodeonboy 18 Oct 08 - 05:30 PM
GUEST,Smokey 18 Oct 08 - 05:34 PM
catspaw49 18 Oct 08 - 07:54 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 19 Oct 08 - 05:38 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 19 Oct 08 - 07:26 AM
Jack Blandiver 19 Oct 08 - 07:47 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 19 Oct 08 - 08:21 AM
Jack Blandiver 19 Oct 08 - 09:48 AM
Will Fly 19 Oct 08 - 09:52 AM
Dave Hanson 19 Oct 08 - 10:03 AM
Will Fly 19 Oct 08 - 10:07 AM
The Borchester Echo 19 Oct 08 - 12:03 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 19 Oct 08 - 12:55 PM
Phil Edwards 19 Oct 08 - 01:09 PM
Don Firth 19 Oct 08 - 01:17 PM
The Borchester Echo 19 Oct 08 - 01:26 PM
Jack Blandiver 19 Oct 08 - 02:15 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 19 Oct 08 - 02:19 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 19 Oct 08 - 04:31 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 19 Oct 08 - 04:37 PM
GUEST,Smokey 19 Oct 08 - 05:35 PM
Will Fly 19 Oct 08 - 05:55 PM
Tootler 19 Oct 08 - 06:02 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 19 Oct 08 - 06:10 PM
Phil Edwards 19 Oct 08 - 06:12 PM
Will Fly 19 Oct 08 - 06:15 PM
GUEST,Smokey 19 Oct 08 - 06:35 PM
TheSnail 19 Oct 08 - 08:57 PM
Ruth Archer 20 Oct 08 - 05:31 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 20 Oct 08 - 06:26 AM
s&r 20 Oct 08 - 06:39 AM
catspaw49 20 Oct 08 - 07:06 AM
Jack Campin 20 Oct 08 - 07:29 AM
Jack Blandiver 20 Oct 08 - 07:40 AM
Jack Blandiver 20 Oct 08 - 07:50 AM
Jack Blandiver 20 Oct 08 - 08:56 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 20 Oct 08 - 10:54 AM
Jack Campin 20 Oct 08 - 11:29 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 20 Oct 08 - 01:00 PM
s&r 20 Oct 08 - 01:09 PM
Don Firth 20 Oct 08 - 01:28 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 20 Oct 08 - 01:40 PM
Jack Blandiver 20 Oct 08 - 01:55 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 20 Oct 08 - 03:02 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 20 Oct 08 - 04:07 PM
catspaw49 20 Oct 08 - 04:18 PM
Phil Edwards 20 Oct 08 - 04:28 PM
melodeonboy 20 Oct 08 - 04:30 PM
Phil Edwards 20 Oct 08 - 04:32 PM
Tootler 20 Oct 08 - 05:39 PM
GUEST,Smokey 20 Oct 08 - 06:20 PM
Don Firth 20 Oct 08 - 08:04 PM
GUEST,Smokey 20 Oct 08 - 09:16 PM
GUEST,Woody 21 Oct 08 - 02:58 AM
Ruth Archer 21 Oct 08 - 03:48 AM
Manitas_at_home 21 Oct 08 - 05:29 AM
Jack Blandiver 21 Oct 08 - 05:53 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 21 Oct 08 - 05:55 AM
Ruth Archer 21 Oct 08 - 06:02 AM
Paul Burke 21 Oct 08 - 06:10 AM
Jack Campin 21 Oct 08 - 06:41 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 21 Oct 08 - 06:44 AM
mandotim 21 Oct 08 - 09:04 AM
Ruth Archer 21 Oct 08 - 09:10 AM
Jack Blandiver 21 Oct 08 - 10:07 AM
mandotim 21 Oct 08 - 10:36 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 21 Oct 08 - 11:02 AM
Jack Blandiver 21 Oct 08 - 11:52 AM
Jack Blandiver 21 Oct 08 - 11:53 AM
Don Firth 21 Oct 08 - 01:37 PM
GUEST,Smokey 21 Oct 08 - 02:03 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 21 Oct 08 - 02:36 PM
GUEST,Smokey 21 Oct 08 - 02:45 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 21 Oct 08 - 02:46 PM
GUEST,Smokey 21 Oct 08 - 03:06 PM
Jack Blandiver 21 Oct 08 - 03:46 PM
Don Firth 21 Oct 08 - 04:06 PM
Jack Campin 21 Oct 08 - 05:45 PM
GUEST,Smokey 21 Oct 08 - 07:52 PM
Don Firth 21 Oct 08 - 08:42 PM
GUEST,Smokey 21 Oct 08 - 08:51 PM
Don Firth 21 Oct 08 - 08:53 PM
catspaw49 21 Oct 08 - 10:39 PM
GUEST,Smokey 21 Oct 08 - 11:06 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 22 Oct 08 - 03:52 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 22 Oct 08 - 04:19 AM
Jack Blandiver 22 Oct 08 - 04:46 AM
Jack Blandiver 22 Oct 08 - 04:51 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 22 Oct 08 - 05:20 AM
Jack Campin 22 Oct 08 - 05:53 AM
Jack Blandiver 22 Oct 08 - 06:10 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 22 Oct 08 - 06:34 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 22 Oct 08 - 06:48 AM
Jack Campin 22 Oct 08 - 07:00 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 22 Oct 08 - 09:14 AM
GUEST 22 Oct 08 - 09:58 AM
Jack Blandiver 22 Oct 08 - 10:32 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 22 Oct 08 - 12:36 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 22 Oct 08 - 12:58 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 22 Oct 08 - 01:04 PM
Ruth Archer 22 Oct 08 - 01:05 PM
GUEST,Howard Jones 22 Oct 08 - 02:12 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 22 Oct 08 - 02:20 PM
s&r 22 Oct 08 - 02:22 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 22 Oct 08 - 02:28 PM
Phil Edwards 22 Oct 08 - 02:30 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 22 Oct 08 - 04:48 PM
GUEST,Woody 22 Oct 08 - 05:20 PM
Phil Edwards 22 Oct 08 - 05:25 PM
GUEST,Smokey 22 Oct 08 - 05:37 PM
Tootler 22 Oct 08 - 05:59 PM
s&r 22 Oct 08 - 06:40 PM
s&r 22 Oct 08 - 06:54 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 23 Oct 08 - 02:47 AM
Jack Blandiver 23 Oct 08 - 05:27 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 23 Oct 08 - 05:42 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 23 Oct 08 - 05:52 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 23 Oct 08 - 06:53 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 23 Oct 08 - 07:36 AM
GUEST,Howard Jones 23 Oct 08 - 07:48 AM
Jack Blandiver 23 Oct 08 - 08:05 AM
GUEST 23 Oct 08 - 08:06 AM
mandotim 23 Oct 08 - 08:13 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 23 Oct 08 - 08:28 AM
GUEST,Smokey 23 Oct 08 - 12:20 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 23 Oct 08 - 01:52 PM
GUEST,Jack Campin 23 Oct 08 - 01:53 PM
GUEST,Smokey 23 Oct 08 - 02:32 PM
s&r 23 Oct 08 - 03:45 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 23 Oct 08 - 03:46 PM
Don Firth 23 Oct 08 - 04:18 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 23 Oct 08 - 04:40 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 23 Oct 08 - 04:44 PM
Phil Edwards 23 Oct 08 - 04:57 PM
TheSnail 23 Oct 08 - 05:16 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 23 Oct 08 - 05:32 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 23 Oct 08 - 05:44 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 23 Oct 08 - 05:56 PM
mandotim 23 Oct 08 - 06:50 PM
GUEST,Smokey 23 Oct 08 - 06:51 PM
GUEST,Woody 24 Oct 08 - 05:58 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 24 Oct 08 - 06:17 AM
GUEST,Working Radish 24 Oct 08 - 08:29 AM
GUEST,Ed 24 Oct 08 - 08:41 AM
catspaw49 24 Oct 08 - 08:50 AM
GUEST,Woody 24 Oct 08 - 08:58 AM
mandotim 24 Oct 08 - 09:38 AM
Jack Blandiver 24 Oct 08 - 09:43 AM
GUEST,David Burland 24 Oct 08 - 09:58 AM
Sailor Ron 24 Oct 08 - 11:48 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 24 Oct 08 - 12:00 PM
Jack Blandiver 24 Oct 08 - 12:00 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 24 Oct 08 - 12:18 PM
s&r 24 Oct 08 - 12:30 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 24 Oct 08 - 01:22 PM
mandotim 24 Oct 08 - 01:45 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 24 Oct 08 - 01:45 PM
Don Firth 24 Oct 08 - 01:54 PM
Phil Edwards 24 Oct 08 - 02:22 PM
Jack Blandiver 24 Oct 08 - 02:33 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 24 Oct 08 - 04:18 PM
Don Firth 24 Oct 08 - 04:47 PM
mandotim 24 Oct 08 - 04:50 PM
Phil Edwards 24 Oct 08 - 04:55 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 24 Oct 08 - 05:20 PM
Phil Edwards 24 Oct 08 - 05:37 PM
s&r 24 Oct 08 - 05:56 PM
GUEST,Smokey 24 Oct 08 - 05:57 PM
s&r 24 Oct 08 - 06:00 PM
SPB-Cooperator 24 Oct 08 - 06:27 PM
GUEST,Ralphie 24 Oct 08 - 07:45 PM
Jack Blandiver 24 Oct 08 - 09:05 PM
GUEST,Smokey 24 Oct 08 - 10:10 PM
mandotim 25 Oct 08 - 04:01 AM
mandotim 25 Oct 08 - 04:41 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 25 Oct 08 - 07:47 AM
mandotim 25 Oct 08 - 08:15 AM
GUEST,Jack Campin 25 Oct 08 - 08:44 AM
Phil Edwards 25 Oct 08 - 08:52 AM
SPB-Cooperator 25 Oct 08 - 09:26 AM
GUEST,Howard Jones 25 Oct 08 - 11:36 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 25 Oct 08 - 12:49 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 25 Oct 08 - 01:00 PM
GUEST,Smokey 25 Oct 08 - 01:26 PM
mandotim 25 Oct 08 - 02:21 PM
GUEST,Smokey 25 Oct 08 - 02:22 PM
GUEST,Insane Beard 25 Oct 08 - 03:01 PM
GUEST,Smokey 25 Oct 08 - 03:19 PM
Don Firth 25 Oct 08 - 03:36 PM
GUEST 25 Oct 08 - 03:48 PM
GUEST,Smokey 25 Oct 08 - 03:50 PM
Don Firth 25 Oct 08 - 04:25 PM
GUEST,Smokey 25 Oct 08 - 04:33 PM
Don Firth 25 Oct 08 - 04:47 PM
GUEST,Smokey 25 Oct 08 - 05:35 PM
GUEST,Smokey 25 Oct 08 - 05:50 PM
GUEST 25 Oct 08 - 06:04 PM
mandotim 26 Oct 08 - 02:35 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 26 Oct 08 - 05:14 AM
GUEST,Stu sans cookie 26 Oct 08 - 05:41 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 26 Oct 08 - 09:53 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 26 Oct 08 - 02:16 PM
catspaw49 26 Oct 08 - 02:31 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 26 Oct 08 - 02:50 PM
Don Firth 26 Oct 08 - 03:06 PM
Jack Blandiver 26 Oct 08 - 05:10 PM
GUEST,Smokey 26 Oct 08 - 05:28 PM
catspaw49 26 Oct 08 - 05:36 PM
GUEST,Smokey 26 Oct 08 - 06:02 PM
Don Firth 26 Oct 08 - 06:37 PM
GUEST,Smokey 26 Oct 08 - 11:49 PM
GUEST,Smokey 27 Oct 08 - 06:51 PM
GUEST,Smokey 27 Oct 08 - 09:45 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 28 Oct 08 - 05:44 AM
TheSnail 28 Oct 08 - 05:50 AM
GUEST,Joseph P 28 Oct 08 - 06:13 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 28 Oct 08 - 07:30 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 28 Oct 08 - 11:17 AM
GUEST,Smokey 28 Oct 08 - 01:41 PM
GUEST,Stu sans cookie 28 Oct 08 - 01:49 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 28 Oct 08 - 01:59 PM
GUEST,Smokey 28 Oct 08 - 02:02 PM
Don Firth 28 Oct 08 - 02:21 PM
KB in Iowa 28 Oct 08 - 02:28 PM
GUEST,VOlgadon 28 Oct 08 - 03:15 PM
GUEST,Smokey 28 Oct 08 - 04:49 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 29 Oct 08 - 07:15 AM
Jack Blandiver 29 Oct 08 - 08:14 AM
Stu 29 Oct 08 - 08:57 AM
KB in Iowa 29 Oct 08 - 10:03 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 29 Oct 08 - 11:16 AM
GUEST,Stu sans cookie 29 Oct 08 - 12:54 PM
The Sandman 29 Oct 08 - 02:19 PM
Stu 29 Oct 08 - 02:35 PM
Phil Edwards 29 Oct 08 - 03:10 PM
Stu 29 Oct 08 - 03:22 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 29 Oct 08 - 03:41 PM
Stu 29 Oct 08 - 03:47 PM
Surreysinger 29 Oct 08 - 04:36 PM
Jack Blandiver 29 Oct 08 - 04:36 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 29 Oct 08 - 05:24 PM
Jack Blandiver 29 Oct 08 - 06:08 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 29 Oct 08 - 06:29 PM
GUEST,Smokey 29 Oct 08 - 07:33 PM
GUEST,Smokey 29 Oct 08 - 07:44 PM
Jack Campin 29 Oct 08 - 08:22 PM
GUEST,Smokey 29 Oct 08 - 11:19 PM
Stu 30 Oct 08 - 04:22 AM
GUEST,Howard Jones 30 Oct 08 - 05:25 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 30 Oct 08 - 06:10 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 30 Oct 08 - 06:40 AM
catspaw49 30 Oct 08 - 06:50 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 30 Oct 08 - 07:03 AM
Stu 30 Oct 08 - 07:11 AM
Paul Burke 30 Oct 08 - 07:44 AM
Jack Blandiver 30 Oct 08 - 07:46 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 30 Oct 08 - 12:25 PM
KB in Iowa 30 Oct 08 - 12:42 PM
GUEST,Smokey 30 Oct 08 - 02:11 PM
GUEST,Jack Campin 30 Oct 08 - 03:18 PM
KB in Iowa 30 Oct 08 - 03:25 PM
GUEST,Smokey 30 Oct 08 - 04:11 PM
KB in Iowa 30 Oct 08 - 04:14 PM
GUEST,Smokey 30 Oct 08 - 04:37 PM
catspaw49 30 Oct 08 - 10:08 PM
GUEST,Smokey 30 Oct 08 - 10:35 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 31 Oct 08 - 05:26 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 31 Oct 08 - 05:33 AM
GUEST,Ed 31 Oct 08 - 05:38 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 31 Oct 08 - 05:41 AM
Sailor Ron 31 Oct 08 - 07:44 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 31 Oct 08 - 07:52 AM
GUEST,Ed 31 Oct 08 - 07:56 AM
GUEST,Smokey 31 Oct 08 - 01:39 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 31 Oct 08 - 05:02 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 31 Oct 08 - 05:08 PM
GUEST,Smokey 31 Oct 08 - 05:50 PM
catspaw49 31 Oct 08 - 07:15 PM
GUEST,Smokey 31 Oct 08 - 07:36 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 01 Nov 08 - 06:22 AM
Stu 01 Nov 08 - 06:32 AM
catspaw49 01 Nov 08 - 06:56 AM
s&r 01 Nov 08 - 01:05 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 01 Nov 08 - 03:37 PM
MaineDog 01 Nov 08 - 04:15 PM
The Borchester Echo 01 Nov 08 - 04:30 PM
GUEST,Smokey 01 Nov 08 - 06:44 PM
GUEST,Joe P 01 Nov 08 - 07:02 PM
GUEST,Smokey 01 Nov 08 - 07:22 PM
Don Firth 01 Nov 08 - 07:24 PM
GUEST,Smokey 01 Nov 08 - 08:16 PM
GUEST,Smokey 01 Nov 08 - 09:50 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 02 Nov 08 - 04:21 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 02 Nov 08 - 05:10 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 02 Nov 08 - 06:41 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 02 Nov 08 - 08:40 AM
Stu 02 Nov 08 - 08:53 AM
Phil Edwards 02 Nov 08 - 09:46 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 02 Nov 08 - 09:52 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 02 Nov 08 - 10:14 AM
Stu 02 Nov 08 - 10:49 AM
Gervase 02 Nov 08 - 10:55 AM
Melissa 02 Nov 08 - 11:02 AM
Don Firth 02 Nov 08 - 02:07 PM
GUEST,Smokey 02 Nov 08 - 05:19 PM
Gervase 02 Nov 08 - 05:33 PM
s&r 02 Nov 08 - 05:37 PM
GUEST,Smokey 02 Nov 08 - 05:38 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 03 Nov 08 - 02:45 AM
Phil Edwards 03 Nov 08 - 03:13 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 03 Nov 08 - 03:26 AM
The Borchester Echo 03 Nov 08 - 03:35 AM
s&r 03 Nov 08 - 03:40 AM
The Borchester Echo 03 Nov 08 - 03:52 AM
Stu 03 Nov 08 - 04:15 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 03 Nov 08 - 05:59 AM
catspaw49 03 Nov 08 - 06:12 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 03 Nov 08 - 06:13 AM
s&r 03 Nov 08 - 06:21 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 03 Nov 08 - 06:22 AM
s&r 03 Nov 08 - 06:56 AM
GUEST,Woody 03 Nov 08 - 07:00 AM
s&r 03 Nov 08 - 07:01 AM
Stu 03 Nov 08 - 08:27 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 03 Nov 08 - 08:55 AM
GUEST,eliza c 03 Nov 08 - 11:32 AM
Stu 03 Nov 08 - 11:55 AM
Phil Edwards 03 Nov 08 - 12:41 PM
The Borchester Echo 03 Nov 08 - 12:51 PM
Stu 03 Nov 08 - 12:56 PM
Don Firth 03 Nov 08 - 01:02 PM
Stu 03 Nov 08 - 01:17 PM
Don Firth 03 Nov 08 - 02:21 PM
catspaw49 03 Nov 08 - 02:30 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 03 Nov 08 - 02:35 PM
GUEST,mispa 03 Nov 08 - 02:49 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 03 Nov 08 - 02:50 PM
Don Firth 03 Nov 08 - 03:00 PM
Phil Edwards 03 Nov 08 - 03:33 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 03 Nov 08 - 03:49 PM
GUEST,Smokey 03 Nov 08 - 07:40 PM
catspaw49 03 Nov 08 - 10:41 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 04 Nov 08 - 06:12 AM
GUEST,eliza c 04 Nov 08 - 06:52 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 04 Nov 08 - 07:33 AM
Phil Edwards 04 Nov 08 - 08:31 AM
KB in Iowa 04 Nov 08 - 09:53 AM
Stu 04 Nov 08 - 10:28 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 04 Nov 08 - 12:29 PM
KB in Iowa 04 Nov 08 - 12:41 PM
Stu 04 Nov 08 - 01:52 PM
GUEST,Smokey 04 Nov 08 - 01:54 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 04 Nov 08 - 02:13 PM
Don Firth 04 Nov 08 - 03:42 PM
GUEST,Smokey 04 Nov 08 - 09:52 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 05 Nov 08 - 06:39 AM
Ruth Archer 05 Nov 08 - 06:58 AM
GUEST,eliza c 05 Nov 08 - 10:13 AM
The Sandman 05 Nov 08 - 10:31 AM
Jack Campin 05 Nov 08 - 11:49 AM
Stu 05 Nov 08 - 12:38 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 05 Nov 08 - 02:00 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 05 Nov 08 - 03:08 PM
Jack Campin 05 Nov 08 - 03:24 PM
Don Firth 05 Nov 08 - 03:29 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 05 Nov 08 - 03:43 PM
Jack Blandiver 05 Nov 08 - 04:16 PM
mandotim 05 Nov 08 - 05:09 PM
s&r 05 Nov 08 - 05:17 PM
mandotim 05 Nov 08 - 05:18 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 05 Nov 08 - 05:20 PM
s&r 05 Nov 08 - 05:28 PM
Jack Blandiver 05 Nov 08 - 05:33 PM
Jack Blandiver 05 Nov 08 - 05:49 PM
Jack Blandiver 05 Nov 08 - 06:31 PM
Phil Edwards 05 Nov 08 - 07:13 PM
Phil Edwards 05 Nov 08 - 07:31 PM
GUEST,Smokey 05 Nov 08 - 10:18 PM
Stu 06 Nov 08 - 03:28 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 06 Nov 08 - 04:14 AM
Phil Edwards 06 Nov 08 - 04:49 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 06 Nov 08 - 05:00 AM
Jack Blandiver 06 Nov 08 - 05:04 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 06 Nov 08 - 05:35 AM
mandotim 06 Nov 08 - 05:56 AM
GUEST,Ed 06 Nov 08 - 06:16 AM
GUEST,Woody 06 Nov 08 - 06:32 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 06 Nov 08 - 06:37 AM
Will Fly 06 Nov 08 - 07:07 AM
mandotim 06 Nov 08 - 07:07 AM
Paul Burke 06 Nov 08 - 07:11 AM
Phil Edwards 06 Nov 08 - 07:26 AM
catspaw49 06 Nov 08 - 08:04 AM
Paul Burke 06 Nov 08 - 08:17 AM
Gervase 06 Nov 08 - 09:15 AM
KB in Iowa 06 Nov 08 - 10:41 AM
mandotim 06 Nov 08 - 10:47 AM
GUEST,eliza c 06 Nov 08 - 01:01 PM
GUEST,Smokey 06 Nov 08 - 01:36 PM
GUEST,Smokey 06 Nov 08 - 01:38 PM
Don Firth 06 Nov 08 - 02:21 PM
Phil Edwards 06 Nov 08 - 03:08 PM
Will Fly 06 Nov 08 - 03:14 PM
GUEST,Smokey 06 Nov 08 - 04:29 PM
GUEST,Woody 06 Nov 08 - 06:19 PM
Phil Edwards 07 Nov 08 - 03:58 AM
mandotim 07 Nov 08 - 04:00 AM
Paul Burke 07 Nov 08 - 04:16 AM
mandotim 07 Nov 08 - 04:27 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 07 Nov 08 - 04:36 AM
Phil Edwards 07 Nov 08 - 05:04 AM
Jack Blandiver 07 Nov 08 - 05:20 AM
Paul Burke 07 Nov 08 - 05:26 AM
Ruth Archer 07 Nov 08 - 05:59 AM
mandotim 07 Nov 08 - 06:07 AM
peregrina 07 Nov 08 - 06:12 AM
catspaw49 07 Nov 08 - 09:22 AM
Gervase 07 Nov 08 - 09:34 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 08 Nov 08 - 12:09 AM
s&r 08 Nov 08 - 04:01 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 08 Nov 08 - 03:52 PM
Don Firth 08 Nov 08 - 03:57 PM
GUEST,Smokey 08 Nov 08 - 04:18 PM
catspaw49 08 Nov 08 - 05:02 PM
Gervase 08 Nov 08 - 05:09 PM
GUEST,Smokey 08 Nov 08 - 05:14 PM
Don Firth 08 Nov 08 - 05:40 PM
mandotim 08 Nov 08 - 05:47 PM
Jack Blandiver 08 Nov 08 - 05:51 PM
GUEST,Smokey 08 Nov 08 - 05:59 PM
peregrina 08 Nov 08 - 06:16 PM
GUEST,Smokey 08 Nov 08 - 06:20 PM
peregrina 08 Nov 08 - 06:23 PM
GUEST,Smokey 08 Nov 08 - 06:28 PM
GUEST,eliza c 08 Nov 08 - 07:03 PM
Will Fly 08 Nov 08 - 07:26 PM
GUEST,Smokey 08 Nov 08 - 09:59 PM
Don Firth 08 Nov 08 - 11:59 PM
mandotim 09 Nov 08 - 03:29 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 09 Nov 08 - 04:00 AM
Will Fly 09 Nov 08 - 04:26 AM
GUEST,Woody 09 Nov 08 - 05:27 AM
Jack Blandiver 09 Nov 08 - 05:43 AM
Stu 09 Nov 08 - 05:54 AM
Stu 09 Nov 08 - 06:16 AM
Ruth Archer 09 Nov 08 - 07:18 AM
GUEST,Howard Jones 09 Nov 08 - 07:18 AM
Gervase 09 Nov 08 - 07:55 AM
mandotim 09 Nov 08 - 08:43 AM
Stu 09 Nov 08 - 09:01 AM
catspaw49 09 Nov 08 - 09:15 AM
Jeri 09 Nov 08 - 09:19 AM
catspaw49 09 Nov 08 - 09:24 AM
Stu 09 Nov 08 - 09:53 AM
Don Firth 09 Nov 08 - 02:22 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 09 Nov 08 - 02:45 PM
jimslass 09 Nov 08 - 02:49 PM
s&r 09 Nov 08 - 03:07 PM
Don Firth 09 Nov 08 - 03:14 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 09 Nov 08 - 03:46 PM
Don Firth 09 Nov 08 - 04:24 PM
Phil Edwards 09 Nov 08 - 04:37 PM
mandotim 09 Nov 08 - 04:37 PM
Don Firth 09 Nov 08 - 04:45 PM
The Sandman 09 Nov 08 - 04:46 PM
GUEST,Smokey 09 Nov 08 - 05:29 PM
Don Firth 09 Nov 08 - 05:40 PM
s&r 09 Nov 08 - 06:06 PM
GUEST,Ralphie 09 Nov 08 - 07:44 PM
GUEST,Ralphie 09 Nov 08 - 07:53 PM
Don Firth 09 Nov 08 - 07:57 PM
GUEST,Smokey 09 Nov 08 - 09:35 PM
catspaw49 09 Nov 08 - 10:22 PM
GUEST,Smokey 10 Nov 08 - 12:55 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 10 Nov 08 - 01:27 AM
Phil Edwards 10 Nov 08 - 03:17 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 10 Nov 08 - 03:29 AM
GUEST,Howard Jones 10 Nov 08 - 04:08 AM
Jack Blandiver 10 Nov 08 - 05:16 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 10 Nov 08 - 05:28 AM
GUEST 10 Nov 08 - 06:50 AM
GUEST,stigweard sans cookie 10 Nov 08 - 07:33 AM
The Sandman 10 Nov 08 - 07:53 AM
Surreysinger 10 Nov 08 - 07:59 AM
Phil Edwards 10 Nov 08 - 08:33 AM
Spleen Cringe 10 Nov 08 - 12:10 PM
GUEST,Woody 10 Nov 08 - 01:40 PM
catspaw49 10 Nov 08 - 05:12 PM
GUEST,Smokey 10 Nov 08 - 05:23 PM
GUEST,eliza c 10 Nov 08 - 06:52 PM
GUEST,Ralphie 11 Nov 08 - 03:44 AM
The Borchester Echo 11 Nov 08 - 04:21 AM
Stu 11 Nov 08 - 06:12 AM
Paul Burke 11 Nov 08 - 06:28 AM
Surreysinger 11 Nov 08 - 06:40 AM
The Borchester Echo 11 Nov 08 - 06:59 AM
Jack Blandiver 11 Nov 08 - 07:01 AM
GUEST,Working Radish 11 Nov 08 - 07:44 AM
The Sandman 11 Nov 08 - 07:49 AM
Will Fly 11 Nov 08 - 07:58 AM
GUEST,Howard Jones 11 Nov 08 - 08:31 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 11 Nov 08 - 09:02 AM
trevek 11 Nov 08 - 10:07 AM
Surreysinger 11 Nov 08 - 11:06 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 11 Nov 08 - 12:52 PM
trevek 11 Nov 08 - 01:22 PM
Surreysinger 11 Nov 08 - 02:27 PM
GUEST,Smokey 11 Nov 08 - 02:33 PM
catspaw49 11 Nov 08 - 02:51 PM
Jack Blandiver 11 Nov 08 - 02:56 PM
GUEST,Smokey 11 Nov 08 - 03:01 PM
GUEST,Smokey 11 Nov 08 - 03:03 PM
Jack Blandiver 11 Nov 08 - 03:07 PM
Gervase 11 Nov 08 - 03:08 PM
Jack Blandiver 11 Nov 08 - 03:19 PM
GUEST,Smokey 11 Nov 08 - 03:20 PM
Jack Blandiver 11 Nov 08 - 03:49 PM
The Borchester Echo 11 Nov 08 - 04:10 PM
The Borchester Echo 11 Nov 08 - 04:29 PM
Jack Blandiver 11 Nov 08 - 04:30 PM
GUEST,Ed 11 Nov 08 - 04:55 PM
Phil Edwards 11 Nov 08 - 05:17 PM
Phil Edwards 11 Nov 08 - 06:09 PM
Surreysinger 11 Nov 08 - 06:19 PM
The Borchester Echo 11 Nov 08 - 06:49 PM
The Sandman 11 Nov 08 - 06:58 PM
GUEST,Smokey 11 Nov 08 - 09:11 PM
GUEST,Poland 12 Nov 08 - 03:30 AM
GUEST 12 Nov 08 - 03:35 AM
Jack Blandiver 12 Nov 08 - 04:15 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 12 Nov 08 - 07:21 AM
Will Fly 12 Nov 08 - 07:31 AM
Jack Blandiver 12 Nov 08 - 08:21 AM
Phil Edwards 12 Nov 08 - 08:52 AM
Stu 12 Nov 08 - 09:25 AM
Surreysinger 12 Nov 08 - 10:12 AM
Surreysinger 12 Nov 08 - 10:13 AM
Paul Burke 12 Nov 08 - 10:16 AM
Jack Blandiver 12 Nov 08 - 12:11 PM
Will Fly 12 Nov 08 - 12:45 PM
Surreysinger 12 Nov 08 - 01:08 PM
Jack Blandiver 12 Nov 08 - 01:21 PM
Will Fly 12 Nov 08 - 01:45 PM
Phil Edwards 12 Nov 08 - 02:37 PM
Jack Campin 12 Nov 08 - 04:21 PM
GUEST,eliza c 12 Nov 08 - 08:27 PM
GUEST,Smokey 12 Nov 08 - 09:24 PM
Spleen Cringe 13 Nov 08 - 12:28 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 13 Nov 08 - 12:55 PM
s&r 13 Nov 08 - 01:39 PM
GUEST,Smokey 13 Nov 08 - 01:42 PM
Jack Blandiver 13 Nov 08 - 01:58 PM
Phil Edwards 13 Nov 08 - 02:00 PM
Phil Edwards 13 Nov 08 - 02:09 PM
Jack Blandiver 13 Nov 08 - 02:18 PM
Will Fly 13 Nov 08 - 02:31 PM
Don Firth 13 Nov 08 - 04:12 PM
Jack Campin 13 Nov 08 - 05:05 PM
GUEST,Smokey 13 Nov 08 - 05:09 PM
Gervase 13 Nov 08 - 05:36 PM
Jack Blandiver 13 Nov 08 - 05:49 PM
Les from Hull 13 Nov 08 - 06:25 PM
Les from Hull 13 Nov 08 - 06:26 PM
GUEST,eliza c 13 Nov 08 - 08:19 PM
Paul Burke 14 Nov 08 - 04:01 AM
GUEST,Ed 14 Nov 08 - 04:04 AM
GUEST,Ed 14 Nov 08 - 04:29 AM
GUEST,Ed 14 Nov 08 - 04:30 AM
GUEST,Ed 14 Nov 08 - 04:30 AM
Phil Edwards 14 Nov 08 - 04:44 AM
GUEST 14 Nov 08 - 04:55 AM
Surreysinger 14 Nov 08 - 06:43 AM
Stu 14 Nov 08 - 08:24 AM
Jack Campin 14 Nov 08 - 08:32 AM
GUEST,Rich 14 Nov 08 - 08:46 AM
Stu 14 Nov 08 - 10:09 AM
GUEST,Ed 14 Nov 08 - 10:42 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 14 Nov 08 - 12:57 PM
Don Firth 14 Nov 08 - 01:08 PM
s&r 14 Nov 08 - 01:50 PM
Surreysinger 14 Nov 08 - 02:25 PM
Jack Campin 14 Nov 08 - 02:46 PM
Gervase 14 Nov 08 - 02:49 PM
GUEST,Smokey 14 Nov 08 - 05:22 PM
Don Firth 14 Nov 08 - 05:36 PM
GUEST,Smokey 14 Nov 08 - 06:33 PM
SPB-Cooperator 14 Nov 08 - 07:13 PM
Dave Hanson 15 Nov 08 - 05:27 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 15 Nov 08 - 05:33 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 15 Nov 08 - 05:42 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 15 Nov 08 - 05:46 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 15 Nov 08 - 05:49 AM
GUEST,Ed 15 Nov 08 - 05:57 AM
s&r 15 Nov 08 - 06:39 AM
Dave Hanson 15 Nov 08 - 09:03 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 15 Nov 08 - 09:36 AM
The Borchester Echo 15 Nov 08 - 09:52 AM
s&r 15 Nov 08 - 11:27 AM
GUEST,Smokey 15 Nov 08 - 02:00 PM
Don Firth 15 Nov 08 - 03:28 PM
GUEST,Smokey 15 Nov 08 - 03:49 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 15 Nov 08 - 04:48 PM
Gervase 15 Nov 08 - 04:58 PM
GUEST,Smokey 15 Nov 08 - 05:05 PM
Don Firth 15 Nov 08 - 05:39 PM
Jack Campin 15 Nov 08 - 05:47 PM
s&r 15 Nov 08 - 06:44 PM
Don Firth 15 Nov 08 - 06:46 PM
Jack Blandiver 15 Nov 08 - 07:34 PM
Jack Campin 15 Nov 08 - 08:57 PM
Dave Hanson 16 Nov 08 - 02:56 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 16 Nov 08 - 09:16 AM
s&r 16 Nov 08 - 01:07 PM
s&r 16 Nov 08 - 01:12 PM
Ruth Archer 16 Nov 08 - 01:38 PM
Jack Blandiver 16 Nov 08 - 02:26 PM
Don Firth 16 Nov 08 - 03:12 PM
Ruth Archer 16 Nov 08 - 04:46 PM
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Subject: ENGLAND'S NATIONAL MUSICAL-INSTRUMENT?
From: GUEST,Walkaboutsverse
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 05:09 AM

It's not difficult to find, e.g., the national instrument of, e.g., Wales or Scotland - triple-harp and highland-pipes, respectively - but I haven't been able to find that of England...although I have, however, compiled a list of "INSTRUMENTS OF (OR CLOSELY ASSOCIATED WITH) ENGLAND" (davidfranks.741.com).


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Subject: RE: ENGLAND'S NATIONAL MUSICAL-INSTRUMENT?
From: Peace
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 05:15 AM

Here ya go.


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Subject: RE: ENGLAND'S NATIONAL MUSICAL-INSTRUMENT?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 05:17 AM

If you want to think about instruments most closely associated with England....what about the word 'Brass'


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Subject: RE: ENGLAND'S NATIONAL MUSICAL-INSTRUMENT?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 05:23 AM

The English concertina, invented by Charles Wheatstone.


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Subject: RE: ENGLAND'S NATIONAL MUSICAL-INSTRUMENT?
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 05:26 AM

Thanks a lot, Peace - and so sorry for the two "e.g."s in my (not DB's) header!!
And thanks, Georgiansilver - I'll consider adding brass-instruments to my list.
But I'm still non the wiser?...it (along with many of our fine Englsih traditions) must have been pushed well under the carpet by the pro-monarchists...


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Subject: RE: ENGLAND'S NATIONAL MUSICAL-INSTRUMENT?
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 05:28 AM

Thanks, Diane...I was thinking that or the recorder/English flute...may I ask of your sources?


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Subject: RE: ENGLAND'S NATIONAL MUSICAL-INSTRUMENT?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 05:31 AM

I still maintain that it's the Stylophone - invented in 1967 by Brian Jarvis.

Walkaboutsverse - I think Georgiansilver might have a point actually; be sure to get down to Durham for the Miners' Gala this year...


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Subject: RE: ENGLAND'S NATIONAL MUSICAL-INSTRUMENT?
From: treewind
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 05:32 AM

The concertina has a claim, being the only instrument invented by an Englishman.

The instrument most commonly associated with English folk music and less with any other type of music was the Hohner pokerwork D/G melodeon for many years.

I reckon GS is on the money with his brass bands too.

Let's not forget that England has a church-based choral singing tradition that is the envy of other countries, and a bell-ringing tradition that is uniquely English, not only church bells but method ringing on handbells.

Anahata


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Subject: RE: ENGLAND'S NATIONAL MUSICAL-INSTRUMENT?
From: Peace
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 05:32 AM

Ya know, WV, that's a heck of a question. I think Diane aced it, but the recorder might be a contender. The problem is that whatever instrument it is would likely have to be harmonic to provide chord structure as background for the song. The lute WAS popular, but not so much these days. I hope you find an answer.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 05:46 AM

The fiddle. Every soldier had one in his knapsack.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 05:48 AM

Thanks, again...for those who are wondering, I'd had this discussion with Sedayne, above, and am glad I've opened it up...
Also, my two mini-encyclopedias credit Charles Wheatstone with inventing the mouth organ/harmonica, as well as the English Concertina...but on the web, sites usually say Germany..?


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 05:53 AM

Carl Uhlig invented the diatonic Anglo-German concertina in the 1830s, presumably after seeing Wheatstone's English instrument. But Wheatstone didn't patent his invention till later.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: greg stephens
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 05:58 AM

Well there is the English guitar, a different animal from the Spanish variety, with a different tuning (CEGCEG), but that has passed into history.Historically the pipes and the fiddle have been the dominant folk instrument, but that applies equally to all our neighbours.The concertina and the Northumbrian pipes are the nearest things we've got to specifically English instruments, though whether that makes them suitable to be the national instrument is another question.
Personally, I would nominate the spoons, enlivener of many a dull session when the old guy in the corner starts flailing away to the annoyance of the earnest folkies who have come to practise their polkas glumly.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 06:03 AM

"But I'm still non the wiser?...it (along with many of our fine Englsih traditions) must have been pushed well under the carpet by the pro-monarchists..."

What on earth does that sentence mean?


G


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 06:05 AM

I'd have thought the fiddle would have a fair claim. The factthat pther countries play it as well should signify - that goes for mkst instruments.

Or how about the clogs?


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 06:24 AM

The bicycle


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 06:28 AM

The hunting horn. Alternatively the Telecaster. Not English by birth but naturalised by close association with the rock of ages known as Keef and every half decent garge band since.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 06:29 AM

The dividers?


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 06:32 AM

The Man o war?


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 06:33 AM

To PMB and McGrath -
"Playing THE Fiddle?
There are many different fiddles from many different lands ? for example, the Chinese erhu fiddle, the Norwegian hardanger fiddle and, the one most in the West now play, the Italian fiddle/violin." (

To John - you don't think English culture is kept down by those wishing to keep the UK together/English nationalism down?

To Greg - I think you mean the English cittern/guitar, yes?, also on my above-mentioned list and, apparently, found in nearly every tavern and barber-shop in England during the 17th century...I've only seen Jez Lowe playing one, thus far...


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 06:37 AM

Sorry - that quote was from me at the same place as above.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 06:39 AM

No mate, I don't think anybody is keeping English culture down, apathy on the part of the majority is what has/was/is destroying it. Even then it can never be totally destroyed, merely become even more of a specialised interest than it is now.
It is after all a minority culture, and rapidly becoming even more so.

G


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 06:50 AM

Charles Wheatstone with inventing the mouth organ/harmonica, as well as the English Concertina...but on the web, sites usually say Germany..?

Wikipedia says the first harmonicas were sold in Vienna before 1824.

Looking through the site, it seems there was a bit of an explosion in free reed designs in Europe in the early 19th C. See here, although the free reed concept is a lot older.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,LTS pretending to work
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 06:57 AM

Comb and paper?

LTS


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Ernest
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 07:05 AM

Finger in the ear?

running for cover
Ernest


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 07:18 AM

I often dream about playing a cream coloured Fender Telecaster, complete with ashtray, even though I've never owned such a thing. Does this make it a Jungian Archetype or a Freudian Subliminal Phallus? Odd thing is - I can't play the guitar at all.

The free-reed concept is indeed a lot older, being invented by the Chinese & common in instruments played in the time of Confucius, being brought to Europe in 1777 by Amiot.

As for fiddles, as I pointed out in an earlier myspace correspondence with Walkaboutsverse:

When people say fiddle they're invariably referring to the violin. The word has an interesting (complex & by no means fully understood) etymology, but in terms of pragmatics & usage it would seem to derive from a verb rather than a noun - a verb which at last yields the noun violin, but it is interesting that in modern musical usage fiddle exists as both a noun and a verb.

That said, the earliest iconographical evidences would suggest the first bowed instruments were, in fact, lyres (i.e. crwth, juohikko, talharp etc.) rather than lutes (i.e. violin, viol, vielle, rebec etc.) - but no bowed lyre is ever called a fiddle!

Fiddle is an English word; it is only English speakers who would call an Erhu a Chinese Fiddle, likewise the Karandeniz Kemence a Black Sea Fiddle, or a Hardingfele a Hardanger Fiddle.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Peace
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 07:20 AM

"I often dream about playing a cream coloured Fender Telecaster, complete with ashtray, even though I've never owned such a thing."

I dream about it, too. I did own one. Traded it for a Framus acoustic back in 1964. That's how I broke my leg. I was kickin' me arse!


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 07:24 AM

When did reeds get into bagpipes?

I think a good argument can be mounted, if you excuse the pun, for the important contribution made to the collection of songs by the bicycle, although clearly not with out a bicyclist. Probably more important than those free reed instruments although he Anglo-German Concertina would would fit well with the evolution of the monarchy.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 07:24 AM

Fiddle is an English word; it is only English speakers who would call...a Hardingfele a Hardanger Fiddle.

fele = fiddle, no?


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 07:41 AM

The reeds came first; bags & bladders were added to reed-pipes & shawms to more easily facilitate circular breathing; then came drones, though not all bagpipes have them.

Fele=fiddle, yes - but then again so does violin, or so I'm told!


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Mr Red
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 07:59 AM

As an Electronic Enginner I have to vote for Mr Wheatstone.

He had a shop in Gloucester you know.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 08:25 AM

Love his bridge Mr Red


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: r.padgett
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 08:41 AM

I would have thought the most popular with folkies is the D/G Melodeon, the 'tina, and the guitar with capo

Ray


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 08:41 AM

I've got a bridge but not a concertina


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Effsee
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 08:58 AM

It's obvious...the Trumpet! 'cos they're always blowing it!


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 09:06 AM

Here's one - what's the International Musical Instrument?

I'd vote for the Jew's Harp, given its myriad ingenious & indigenous manifestations the world o'er.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Snuffy
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 09:09 AM

Posthorn


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 10:37 AM

I'm sure I posted this but t'iterweb monsters seem to have made off with it!

Raddle-drum(sp?) Alleged forerunner of the bodhran - Wasn't that an English rural thing.

Pipe and tabor? Used for Morris in 1600 as per Kemps nine daes wonder.

Or how about anything you can march into battle (or retreat!) with:-)

Little snippet about Wheatstone - I was told he invented the linkage system for the modern Stradella bass system on Piano Accordians. But someone could have been pulling my leg. Or pushing my buttons?

Cheers

Dave.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 11:04 AM

When England wants to play a tune of which she can be proud,
she needs an instrument to play that is both shrill and loud.
The concertina is no good, the fiddle is too frail
bodhran and harp are foreign, the melodeon's gone stale.
Guitars are ten a penny, the piano is too grand,
you need something that plays classic, folk, pop and brass band.
The answer is so obvious, on this I'll no more drone:
The English National Instrument is the Mobile Phone!


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 11:28 AM

Harping on mobiles, George, I came across an interesting instrument the other day that relates to Treewind's (above) English bell-ringing tradition: I was, and still am, looking for a lap-top acoustic keyboard (I do have Argos's cheapest/smallest electrical one, which I do play on my lap whist watching TV), and came across the bell lyre - a portable glockenspiel, with a lyre-shpaed frame, strapped-on by some members of marching bands.
I'd heard, Dave, that the pipe and tabor were the original Morris instruments (seen a chap playing them at The Morpeth Gathering, a couple of times) but it was/is also well used for dance music on the continent.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 11:30 AM

LOL, George - Mine plays Stranger in Paradise, which is about right living here on the Fylde coast, basking beneath the palm-trees...


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,John from Elsie`s Band
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 11:37 AM

Diane,
       Am I correct in believing that Wheatstone`s daughter had much to do with the inventing or development of the coffee percolator or caffatiere? I`m sure I saw something about it on Duff-"Whatsits" science programme.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 11:39 AM

Pipe and Taboring is pretty much universal, at least as far as planet earth is concerned, with the most developed traditions existing in France and South America.

For a little acoustic keyboard, try a melodica with a blow pipe...


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,WalkaboutVerse
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 11:48 AM

...but for accompaniment, Sedayne.
Speaking of harping - also saw the English Dital Harp at Morpeth?...


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 11:51 AM

Hi John, I don't know I wouldn't be at all surprised.
What a resourceful family!
As a sideline to inventing the most wonderful instrument, Charles made great strides in developing the telegraph, the telephone and making electricity go faster.
Would we have had an internet by now without him?
With him in charge of Virgin Media instead of Mr Branson I'm sure my broadband would run like greased lightning.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 12:06 PM

Fair point; there is a miniature Indian harmonium with a hand pump that often comes up from time to time on ebay, though they tend to get bid up pretty fast. I did a gig recently with Martin Archer who was playing one - sounded beautiful.

Note the provenance here - that this is very much an Indian adaptation of an European instrument (see Harmonium thread elsewhere).

Otherwise, those cheap Chinese 8-bass accordions are good inexpensive slightly-out-of-tune fun; I've got one myself & I've even played it in public to accompany 'The Fox Jumps Over the Parsons Gate'. A bit loud for watching the telly though, unless you've got really sympathetic neighbours. That said, when I'm watching TV I often practise muted scales on my pocket trumpet...


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Nerd
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 12:09 PM

How about the English Horn (which is neither English nor a horn)!

Fiddle is not really an exclusively English word. There's Fiedel in German and Fiddel in Danish, for example--as close as one could reasonably expect. All of these words are technically cognate with viol, violin being a diminutive form from Italian violino. I don't think it's farfetched to think of people in other languages calling the erhu an example of a Chinese viol, using whatever their cognate term might be.

I don't think the word fiddle turns up in old English, but "fiddler" does, with an "edh" in place of the double d: fi{edh}elere. The medieval Latin cognate of fiddle was vitula, and no one is sure whether the word was imported independently into all the Scandinavian and Germanic languages from medieval Latin, borrowed into several and spread to others from those, or whether there was an Old Teutonic original from which the Germanic forms derive. In any case, it is the same word with different consonant and vowel changes leading to its different pronunciations throughout Europe.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 12:11 PM

The war drum.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 12:15 PM

The English Horn, known in England as the Cor Anglais


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 12:28 PM

To Nerd - I agree, but the English horn and the rest of the oboe family have often been used by (Romantic) English composers, yes?
To Sedayne - yet another qualification: I play the piano-keys with two hands (I first played the computer keyboard using software called KB Piano, then transferred my "touch-typing technique"! to the piano keys). There are keyboard glockenspiels/celestas...but lap-top/for singarounds?...I wonder if anyone has ever hooked-up the Northumbrian bagpipe kit to a melodica...a strange harmonium, I guess..?!


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 12:37 PM

Fiddle is and anciently ubiquitous word with many derivations as can be proven, but to call an Erhu a Chinese Fiddle is to miss the point rather, though ethnomusicolists would no doubt call it a category of spike-fiddle, this is by way of taxonomy rather than naming per-se.

But then again, I've seen the Sanxian described as a Chinese Banjo, and, more absurdly, the Sheng as a Chinese Mouthorgan.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: greg stephens
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 12:40 PM

Treewind/anahata mentioned bells, good suggestion. On a slightly different tack, surely the bells must be the oldest instruments still in use? I used to live in Claughton in Lunesdale, and the bell in the tiny little church there was made in 1296. There may be older ones in England, but I haven't heard of one. That's an impressive age for an instrument in regular use. Maybe it should be the national instrument?
Actually, though, surely things like national instruments and national constitutions and national values are only for foreigners?


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 12:51 PM

The Sheng, of Chinese orchestras, with it's pipes, looks to me a lot more like a mouth/mini-organ than the harmonica.
A band of hand-held bell players (Peter Piper..!) made it onto the local news here in NE England, and they sounded great.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: treewind
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 01:02 PM

I wondered when somebody would come up with cor anglais.
The original name was cor anglé; this got corrupted to cor anglais and then innocently/ignorantly translated to English horn.

If you look at the mouthpiece end you'll soon see why it was anglé compared with its close relative the oboe which isn't.

Anahata


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 01:40 PM

Belatedly, here's Walkaboutsverse's list from the link (not obvious when clicked):

INSTRUMENTS OF (OR CLOSELY ASSOCIATED WITH) ENGLAND

Northumbrian Bagpipes (bellows blown), Leicestershire Bagpipes (mouth blown); English Concertina,

Anglo Concertina, Duet Concertina (and important developments to ? if not inventions of ? other key-

boards, such as piano and organ, have also occurred in England); Dital Harp/Harp-Lute, English Cittern;

English Flageolet, Penny Whistle, Recorder/English Flute

(Footnote: during the Athens Olympics ceremonies, the Greeks, pleasingly, presented their bouzoukis:

I wonder how-many of the above instruments - and dances - will be shown at the London Olympics..?)


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Nerd
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 02:00 PM

Anahata, that's a widespread myth about the English Horn's name. It would be plausible if anglé meant "angled" in French, but it doesn't and never has.

Another theory, by the way, is that because the cor anglais resembled the horns played by putti and other angels in renaissance art, the word was originally German "engellisches Horn", meaning "angelic horn." This is more plausible, because "engellisch" was also a fairly common alternative spelling for the adjective "englisch," "English."

Historically, the name "english horn" first turns up in German and Austrian scores...but written in Italian as corno inglese, which can't plausibly mean either "angled" or "angelic." So anyone who posits either a French or a German etymology has a built-in challenge.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 02:04 PM

Would you like to be my secretary, DD?!...I could even give you (C) copy/paste rights!...and if you clog dance, well, we could go much further!! :-)
As for that list, given the words of wisdom here and a bit more thought, I do intend to add to it...


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,The Mole catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 02:14 PM

'The English concertina, invented by Charles Wheatstone."


In 1828, (Sir Charles)Wheatstone improved the German wind instrument, called the Mundharmonika, until it became the popular concertina, patented on June 19, 1829.

- sourced from Wikipedia

Sir Charles Wheatstone

Charlotte R


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 02:18 PM

It's called the ENGLISH concertina, and that's what it says he invented. The name sort of gives it away.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,The Mole catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 02:28 PM

I'm not going to argue with you...

here's another source for information regarding Wheatstone

Charles Wheatstone also considered the action of the 'Mundharmonika', a recently developed German mouth organ made of an arrangement of various jew's harp tongues. Undoubtedly, this early work presaged the invention of the symphonium and the concertina, in which the steel 'tongues', 'springs' or free reeds were to be set into motion, and sustained in such motion by the breath and by bellows respectively.

Sourced from Here

Charlotte R


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 03:12 PM

One things for sure - both Germany and England have been significant players in the design, development and (in the case of the recorder, e.g.) resurrection of instruments.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: irishenglish
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 03:49 PM

I would vote for concertina as the instrument I would associate most with England. Someone mentioned every soldier carrying a fiddle, but what instrument comes to mind when one thinks of the Royal Navy-concertina of course! I think fiddle, pipes (Northumbrian and Leicester, etc) and melodeon as well, but concertina would be it for me.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 03:56 PM

Mundharmonika is just a harmonica, right? Not sure what that's got to do with Jew's Harps, although the Chinese have a lovely little instrument called to Kou-Xiang (or Ho-Ho) which consists of a fan of three to five tuned Jew's Harps. See HERE for details, sound clips & ordering info! Everyone should have one, though beardies beware of snags!

Certainly some cheap anglos I've seen demolished seem to be made up of harmonica reeds, but the English concertina is a different kettle of kippers altogether - even if it is based on 2,000 year old Chinese technology!


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 04:00 PM

Speaking of the navy, is the pipe used to pipe the captain or dignitaries aboard the same or similar to the tabor-pipe used for Morris, and mentioned above?..both are played with just the left hand, yes?


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 04:00 PM

'Mundharmonika is just a harmonica, right? Not sure what that's got to do with Jew's Harps'


That would be the use of the arrangement of various jew's harp tongues used in the Mundharmonika.

Charlotte R


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: irishenglish
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 04:07 PM

The bo'sun's whistle is not similar to the pipe. I have a recreation of the whistle, and it is curved, almost like a french horn, and can really only be used to pipe warnings, as its tone is very shrill.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 04:15 PM

Charlotte - Not so much Jew's Harp tongues as free reeds; similar, but quite different! All searches for Mundharmonika come up with the instrument we variously know as harmonica, mouth-organ or moothie. If anyone can shed further light on this please do.

Walkaboutsverse - The Bosuns Whistle; a very different beast to the tabor pipe, being essentially a tiny globular vessel flute blown by means of the connecting pipe with the pitch regulated by opening & closing the hand.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 04:20 PM

I realise the difference, but all the sources I've checked seem to say the same thing about the Mundharmonika, either way the end result is the instrument I would personally nominate as England's National Instrument.

Actually all this talk about the English concertina makes me want to learn how to play...see some of these threads are quite benificial *LOL*

Charlotte R


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Ernest
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 04:21 PM

So the jaw harp is the least elaborate of free reed instruments having just 1 tongue/reed, while harmonica,sheng etc. have bigger numbers and a more elaborate frame too...

Regards
Ernest


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 04:28 PM

Maybe the Accordion page on Wikipedia will shed a little more light.

Whatever Wheatstone's base, his invention was not the first "squeezebox".

On the other hand, as far as I know, the EC fingering system is unique and invented by Weatstone. Then I suppose there are other bits, the way the reeds are set up in (at least most decent) concertinas? Even a small box?


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,The Mole catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 04:39 PM

that article seems to be mainly about the accordian, with, I might add, some unverified claims (ie no sources cited). it does however state, which I have seen cited elsewhere, that

The concertina, patented in two forms (perhaps independently): one by Carl Friedrich Uhlig, 1834 and the other by Sir Charles Wheatstone, of which examples were built after 1829, but no patent taken out until 1844.

Charlotte R


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 04:43 PM

Some Americans refer to the harmonica as the blues harp...and, apparently, some early players would dip it in their grog - I've seen Neil Young dipping one in some liquid? just before fitting it to his hands-free frame, to also play a guitar or organ or piano. For some unknown reason, I find dipping my ABS plastic tenor-recorder/English flute in water helps reduce the chances of clogging.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 04:45 PM

Who was first to invent a reed instrument that plays the same note in both directions of air travel?

Kitty


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 04:46 PM

Only one was an ENGLISH Concertina, people are comparing apples and oranges here.
Or are we saying that all music ever written belongs to the person who invented the musical scale on which they are based?
After all, you only need to change about every fourth note of a song, to copyright it in your own name as a new composition.
Anyway once again a thread has been side tracked, another thread should be started to discuss the merits and demerits of concertinas.

G


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: irishenglish
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 04:47 PM

I think we refer to the harmonica as just a harp, not a blues harp, even though it is an instrument most associated with blues, or the hands free Guthrie, Dylan, etc. style.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 04:53 PM

Who was first to invent a reed instrument that plays the same note in both directions of air travel?

I don't know but it does appear the accordion came before the concertina.

Only one was an ENGLISH Concertina, people are comparing apples and oranges here.

Not really, all free reeded and mostly bellows blown. I don't think anyone here disputes that Wheatstone invented a distinctive enough instrument to be called the English Concertina but I for one am curious to know which parts of the whole machine were his inventions.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 04:58 PM

It's the Guitar surely???

Depends on how you wish to define things, obviously, but in terms of number of players, amount of music listened too etc...

Guitar 1 Rest 0


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 05:00 PM

"people are comparing apples and oranges here"

seems I read this somewhere else when people were in disagreement.


the source of the said instrument is being discussed here, and free reed intruments do not begin and end with the English concertina. Once more, for some reason, the film A Canterbury Tale comes to mind.

'I for one am curious to know which parts of the whole machine were his inventions"

Same here, after all isn't that part of what folk music is all about, sources?

Charlotte R


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVers
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 05:03 PM

How about "English cittern 1," Ed - help kick-start the greatest muscical comeback since the recorder!


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 05:04 PM

1) It is known as both. The term "blues harp" is the older.
2) The reason (aparently) for gob-iron (the preferred term - by me anyway!) dipping was to make the wood swell and stop splinters going into your lips. It also made sure that there were no air leaks. Not to be recommended for the D/G box!


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 05:15 PM

Depends on how you wish to define things, obviously, but in terms of number of players, amount of music listened too etc...

The guitar would be the national instrument of a number of countries by that method.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Alan Day
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 05:34 PM

I agree with Diane regarding the concertina.It was lightweight portable and cheap compared with brass instruments in the mid 1850s. It was taken up by The Salvation Army and Concertina Bands became very popular playing a yearly competition at Bell Vue Manchester and Crystal Palace. it's popularity continued to The Music Halls,it became a popular instrument to take to sea,but I doubt if the salt water did the reeds any good. The Concertina is regaining it's early popularity and Workshops are pulling in large crowds.
My vote as always the Concertina.
Al


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 05:43 PM

...and the concertina really does have a beautiful timbre, Alan.
To Jon - that sounds a lot like the dreaded G-word: globalisation!


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,guy wolff
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 08:16 PM

Just to add to the list the Viol known in Italy and France as Viola de Gamba was a very very popular instrument in England and the works of Gibbons Tallis and Bird show how strong a hold this instument had on the English ear .It was still being talked about by the likes of Thomas Hardy.. The luthiers of England were famous for the best instruments of the time. All the best . Guy wolff


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Mr Red
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 02:10 AM

Mobile Phone? sort of international though they only have cell phones in North Amreica.
Mine plays Horses Brawle (in the key of GG) and La Morresque (in baldricks)
Clever, what?


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Ernest
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 02:26 AM

The guitar is so popular internationally that it is difficult to call it some country`s national instrument at all (maybe with the exception of Spain).

And the mobile phone is not a musical instrument, but an instrument of torture.

So concertina seems a good choice.

Regards
Ernest (who is neither Anglo nor Saxon btw)


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 02:26 AM

See my 15 Apr 08 - 11:04 AM post, Mr Red...


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 02:40 AM

Woody Guthrie called the harmonica a ' French harp '

eric


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 03:19 AM

Out of interest the Sally Army concertinas wer all black - Bellows and ends. The Anlo ones played alongside the brass bands were also Eflat/Bflat.

D.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 03:54 AM

In my earlier thread I suggested >>>>>>>>>If you want to think about instruments most closely associated with England....what about the word 'Brass'<<<<<<<<<< and a few took me up on it. If you are looking for a 'current' instrument as Englands National instrument then 'brass' has to be in the answer. If you want something historical that is typically British there is something of a small choice. Concertinas and melodeons are much more 'French' than English I believe. If we are seeking a 'Folk' instrument then I guess we have to go with guitar in spite of its origins....it is the most used in Folk music.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: treewind
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 04:12 AM

The guitar may be widespread as a folk instrument but there's absolutely nothing distinctively English about it. I resisted suggesting the fiddle (violin) for similar reasons - it's too international - not only all over Ireland and Scotland (which aren't England...) but with strong North and East European representation too.

BTW, humble apologies for spreading misinformation about cor anglais. I never thought of checking on the fake French.

Anahata


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 04:55 AM

I like the idea of the lute having evolved in different lands into different guitar-like instruments - the Portuguese guitar (nearly always used to accompany fado songs), the Mexican guitar (with 9 strings, I think), the balalaika of Russia, the English cittern, the mandolin of Italy, the bouzouki (which we saw in the Athens Olympics), etc...
And, as suggested above, I also like the idea of their being many a fiddle-like instrument in many different lands...but, then, I do love our world being multicultural.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 05:18 AM

Just for the record, the Jew's Harp is a class of idiophonic Linguaphone, rather than a free reed instrument, which are in any case aerophones rather than idiophones. On certain Jew's Harps (the Indian heteroglottal moorsing for example, and certain of the dan moi type idioglots) it is possible to resonate the tongue by means of the breath alone, generally on the suck, but all this gives you is one sustained tone.

Other Linguaphones are the thumb-piano (mbira, sansa, kalimba etc.) and the Fender Rhodes.

Anhow, here's the Wikipedia list of National Instruments, which makes for a fascinating read, and enlightens us as to what England's National Musical Instrument actually is!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_instrument


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 05:51 AM

Thanks - 'tis an interesting/tad controversial read; also, for what it's worth, I've just added BELLS, brass, pipe and tabor, and stylophone to "INSTRUMENTS OF (OR CLOSELY ASSOCIATED WITH) ENGLAND" (as above or here).


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 06:44 AM

Doesn't surprise me any; change ringing being a uniquely English music, however so widespread in modern times, although perhaps to many it isn't music at all, much less folk music. In any case I love the sound of the bells myself & have a personal archive of many hours of field recordings which, given the extended durations, provide the perfect accompaniment to most indoor domestic activities. How I miss the plaintive minor-third of the Evensong Bells mournfully knelling the faithful to prayer at Durham Cathedral; or the full glories of the changes which were usually just kicking off on a Thursday night when we were parking up on Palace Green for the Durham City Folk Cub sing at The Shakespeare.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Change_ringing


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: greg stephens
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 07:48 AM

Why would anyone suppose there would be a uniquely "English" instrument, as opposed to a Scottish or Irish or Welsh one? Those national borders were laid down by bunches of Normans fighting each other basically.(Wallaces, Bruces and Stewarts north of the border v Planataganets south, for example). Musicians happily got on with music, irrespective of who briefly occupied the Big House.A Roman Wall can occasionally stop a large army of Picts and Scots. But it will always be porous to an itinerant harper who pootles into the fort from one side, earns a couple of denarii singing in the canteen in the evening, and departs the following morning on the other side. Having left a little music, and picked up a litle more.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 08:00 AM

The point is, the Welsh, Scots and Irish do have National Instruments, with quite clear cultural & folkloric connections, whereas in England there is no obvious equivalent.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: glueman
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 08:04 AM

Another fan of church bells, the BBC has Bells on Sunday at 00.45 if any one is still up. Nodding off to a peal from some secluded Norman tower is the perfect end to a day. Strange how different the bells sound in say, the Christianised Balkans, where the notes are often flat.
Not folk though.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Jonny Sunshine
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 08:05 AM

I never realised England actually had an Official Musical Instrument, I can't say that a bell seems as emblematic of England as a harp is of Ireland. Then again, Ireland is apparently unique in having a musical instrument as a recognised national symbol (as opposed to having a nominal "national instrument" for the sake of having one)

Personally I think the concertina's the best candidate as folk instruments go, but given that folk music is a minority interest in England I don't think it's a symbol many would relate to.

You want something that reflects England's industrial and manufacturing innovation- "made in England"- that is part of a living musical culture shared by many, something that has shaped the sound of music in England and beyond, something so iconic that people hire non-working versions purely for visual effect...


THE MARSHALL STACK!!


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Dazbo at work
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 08:13 AM

Got to be a full set (170+ bells) of Whitechapel hand bells - only trouble is it takes 10 people to play it.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Dazbo at work
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 08:16 AM

cross posted with Jonny Sunshine. didn't the Germans class England as without music (Bach/Handl era?) but as the land of bells (or something similar)


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: RTim
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 08:25 AM

Has anyone mentioned - The Serpent?
An essential part of West Galley Music.

Tim Radford


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 10:56 AM

No, Tim - just the brass family in general...I had a look in Wiki., etc., and the serpent was invented by a Frenchman in the 16th century, to be used by military and church orchestras.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Alan Day
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 12:00 PM

Georgian Silver ,I would be interested to know the link between Concertinas and France.First time I have heard it.
Al


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 12:12 PM

My understanding is that the piano-accordion is the French version of the squeeze box...hence, when we get travel programmes, ads, etc. on France it's nearly always used for background music.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 12:20 PM

Alan Day..well spotted..I apologise for putting concertinas for what should obviously have been piano accordians......
Best wishes, Mike.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 12:31 PM

But from whither the current crop of accordion buskers ubiquitous throughout the North of England? Whole families of them in Newcastle, also in Liverpool in duos with trumpets & clarinets; and damn fine they are too... Even a couple in Cleveleys!


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 01:35 PM

Blimey - I just heard the present French Eurovision entry has caused a political stir for singing in English!


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Mr Red
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 01:52 PM

- must have been a promoted by redezvous of entrpenuers in a cul de sac. deja vu?


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 02:25 PM

Since the v in German is pronounced f, might it not imply that 'fiddle' originated in Germany?


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 02:33 PM

I nominate the Watkins Copycat. Thoroughbred English, and invented by an eccentric genius, namely Charlie Watkins.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 03:28 PM

Seconded, Ol' Smokey - in theory anyway, I had nowt but bother with mine & way too noisy for studio work, but times I've stood in awe watching Micky Jones using a Copycat to ascend into the heavens... Pure and perfect joy!


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Alan Day
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 05:33 PM

Thanks Mike not meaning to pick you up on an error,my question came out of pure interest. when I played with Rosbif there were very few concertina players over there. A few turning up now Jean Megly being one of them on his duet.
Apart from the Piano Accordion they have some truly wonderful melodion players
Al


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Gurney
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 06:58 PM

I'm not an expert, but...

I've seen the 'mouth-organ' invented by Wheatstone. It is a box blown from a central hole, with buttons on the sides, arranged like the English, about one octave.

Guest Jon, what Wheatstone invented was the fingering system, the arrangement of the instrument. As I understand it.
The small metal reeds came from China.

Dave Polshaw, my ex-Sally-Army Lachenal isn't black. It has been re-bellowed in black, but has brown-stained varnished ends. Still in the original case marked 'Salvationist Publishing & Supplies Ltd, Musical Instrument Department.' At least, I think the box and the box go together.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 07:45 PM

Herga Kitty: the Chineses sheng has reeds which work in both directions.
Re: the argument about the origins of 'fiddle'; I read somewhere years ago that it derives from the Latin 'fidicula', which was an ancient Roman stinged instrument, but not bowed. Bowed instruments seem to have originated in (if memory serves) about the ninth century. There are variants on the name fiddle - fidel, fythele, vielle, etc., and from these we get viola, vihuela, viol, violin, violone, blah, blah, blah....
Going back to the original question, the English Guitar has been mentioned more than once; WV refers to it as 'English Cittern'. It was a new type of cittern which had a short period of popularity in the 18thC, and is supposed to have survivved in the form of the 'Portuguese Guitar', which has also been mentioned. A further variant is the German Waldzither, which is virtually an English Guitar minus the fifth course. The cittern now being used in folk music is, I think, an English development. Maybe somebody can confirm.... These, however were not the first new variants on the cittern to have been invented in England. The Orpharion, invented by John Rose in the late 16thC, was a cittern tuned like a lute, to give lutenists the chance to get in on the wire-strung sound without having to learn a new instrument.
And nobody has mentioned the Humstrum. I've never heard one played, and have only seen one, in a museum in Dorset, I think. It's a true 'folk' instrument, being cobbled together from a bit of wood, a cocoa tin, some fiddle pegs and some bits if wire. It can be strummed or bowed - hence the name.
John Kelly.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 07:54 PM

Guest Jon, what Wheatstone invented was the fingering system, the arrangement of the instrument. As I understand it.
The small metal reeds came from China.


OKish but there still may be other questions like the reed plates in Wheatsones innovations??? As far as I know, good concertinas have a way different to harmonicas and accordions/melodeons.

Ti's late at night but a google has found me

this


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Snuffy
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 04:09 AM

I reckon it has to be bells, because change-ringing is so uniquely English. And it is a tradition of the common folk, unspoilt by commercialism.

And just a wild hunch, unsuppoorted by any evidence - with bells rung in almost every town and village in the land I reckon there may be more bell-ringers than guitarists, box players and sundry assorted folkies combined.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Alan Day
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 04:19 AM

Well the Humstrum sounds right for our National Instrument,cobbled together from a bit of wood, a cocoa tin,some fiddle pegs and some bits of wire. Sums up the current situation rather nicely.
Al


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 08:59 AM

I made a similar thing a couple of years back from a length of copper pipe, a mouthpiece of a Generation Bb whistle, a length of guitar string (A?), a small Egyptian tambourine (riq), a bell, and a cockleshell. You blow the whistle as an overtone flute and bow the string for a drone. Sounds pretty cool actually.

Read all about it at: Troll Pipe


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 09:04 AM

According to Wikipedia, the national instrument of England is the Bell !!!


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 09:04 AM

Sorry, forgot to include the link, here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_instruments


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 09:52 AM

Yes - we've already established that! Doesn't anyone bother to read these bloody things through first?


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 10:01 AM

...that rings a bell! :-)


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 10:03 AM

Sedayne: just had a listen to the Troll Pipe. Sounds great -better than I'd expected!
For anyone who hasn't come across the Humstrum, I'll try and describe it: It is carved from a piece of wood - the one I saw was, I think (it's decades ago), about 20" long - into a sort of broad bat shape. The narrow end was carved into a violin-type head, with four pegs. The neck continued down to the broad end, which was scooped out into a shallow convex shape, with a squared-off end. This end had a recess across it, which held the cocoa tin, at right- angles to the strings. The strings went over the tin, and were held by nails to the end of the instrument, the sting tension giving the necessary downward pressure to hold the tin in place. The tin acted as both bridge and resonator. The strings were obviously on a flat plane, so that when played with a bow, all strings sounded together. I don't know what the tuning is, or even if it's standard, but presume it would be a tonic/dominant drone, with either single or double melody stings. I think it's the nearest thing to an 'English fiddle'. The fiddle as we knw it -i.e. the violin - is not of English origin, and is very widely played as a traditional instrument. I think you could really only describe it as a traditional English instrument in terms of playing style, and I'm not convinced that there was a distinctive English style pre-Swarbrick, although I'm sure somebody will shoot me down in flames! Ireland and Scotland do have distinct styles, and so the fiddle is recognised as a traditional instrument in those societies. In Shetland, there is a tradition of fiddling which pre-dates the violin; it goes back to the Norse origins of that society, and their earlier fiddle was some form of 3-stringed (I think) nordic instrument. This was gradually superceded by the violin after Shetland became annexed to Scotland. But as there is an unbroken tradition of fiddling, there is still a distinct Shetland style. Gawd, I'm waffling 'ere.
John Kelly.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 11:20 AM

Hi John - Thanks for the kind words. BTW we were really looking forward to your Fleetwood gig the other week, but ill-health got in the way rather; great reports though, so hope to catch you next time!


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 12:02 PM

Hi Sedayne. Sorry about the ill-health. I'd just about got over some odd virus or something myself, so my voice just about lasted the night. See you next time - and bring that Troll Pipe along!
Cheers. John Kelly.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: greg stephens
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 12:14 PM

Harmonium: are you sure there is a Scottish fiddle style, and an Irish fiddle style, but no English fiddle style(pre Swarbrick)? I suggest you have a listen to various traditional fiddle recordings. You will find there are many traditional styles in Scotland, many in Ireland, and many in England. You can't of course say how many distinct styles there are, as they merge into each other. SE Scotland merges into NE England and so on. But there certainly isn't(or wasn't) one style in Scotland that lasts from Lerwick to Berwick, and one in England, which miraculously changes at the border and lasts all the way down to Dover. Folk music doesn't work like that, though radio and arts funding are trying to make it happen!"
You notice I have left Wales off the list. To the best of my knowledge there are, surprisingly, no recordings of Welsh traditional fiddling.There are many theories why this should be!


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 02:27 PM

From here, again: for centuries, English folk-music has been the repetition of relatively-simple topline melodies, for dancing &/or telling, yes?...


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 02:39 PM

You're point being what? I mean apart from a blatant ad (yet again) for your website. No I didn't bother reading. I believe the topic is the instrument, not the songs themselves.

Charlotte R


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 02:56 PM

Styles had been brought-up, Chorlotte, and it seems to me the same as above could be said for Scotland and Ireland - with the variation coming from tempo and rhythm (as well as choice of instrument!): Jigs more in Ireland, reels more in England, strasthspeys more in Scotland, yes?...


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie)
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 05:35 PM

I'm not a musical history expert. But, growing up in the sheltered mountains of Kentucky, we always thought of the lute as a very English instrument- you know, sort of proper, quiet and well-mannered. Could this feeling have been handed down in our memories,from back when we were English? (and Scottish, and Irish?)...I like that idea!


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 05:44 PM

Just recently, Kytrad, on BBC4 there was a series on our sacred music, and when a lament by Byrd for his teacher/dear friend Tallis was performed it was, indeed, accompanied by a lute - beautifully.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 05:48 PM

kytrad, on the wikipedia page for the lute it' states the the instrument is of European origin and that:

'The European lute and the Near-Eastern oud both descend from a common ancestor, with diverging evolutionary paths'

-sourced from Wikipedia

Some Further Lute History

From what I've seen so far, the lute definitely isn't English

Charlotte R


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 04:20 AM

We agree!, here, Charlotte and, from above -

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 04:55 AM

"I like the idea of the lute having evolved in different lands into different guitar-like instruments - the Portuguese guitar (nearly always used to accompany fado songs), the Mexican guitar (with 9 strings, I think), the balalaika of Russia, the English cittern, the mandolin of Italy, the bouzouki (which we saw in the Athens Olympics), etc...
And, as suggested above, I also like the idea of their being many a fiddle-like instrument in many different lands...but, then, I do love our world being multicultural."


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Chris P.
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 05:27 AM

OMG, what an exasperating and pointless discussion. Why should we want to represent several centuries of our varied and eclectic musical traditions by a single instrument, which, for some reason I cannot fathom, has to have been invented in situ? Most kids who start to play an instrument now buy a guitar. 70 years ago it may have been the harmonica, 200yrs ago it was undoubtedly the fiddle, and 400yrs ago probably the Jews Harp. All these were international phenomena, covering Ireland and Scotland too. Why do we have to draw national boundaries round them? And why do we assume that English fiddle music was somehow less competent, varied and interesting than anyone else's? There are vanishingly few recordings of English fiddle music upon which to base that presumption.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 08:15 AM

"Why...?" Chris P. - because, as I've said, whilst nationalism with conquest IS bad, nationalism with eco-travel and fair-trade (via the UN) is good for humanity...when people lose their own culture, society suffers, etc.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 08:57 AM

riiiight ... Walkaboutsverse, your perception of cultures is somewhat odd to say the least. I totally agree that we should keep in touch with our local roots, but not to the point where cultural overlap should be limited to observation! there are no geographical cultural boundaries and culture is NOT defined by national identity.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 09:07 AM

'culture is NOT defined by national identity.'

You got that right. Anyway, is English music pictish, Saxon, regency rural, romantic Victorian? That way lies dead ends or propaganda.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 09:22 AM

"riiight", Joe? - I think I'm Left-wing, and that questioning economic-immigration/emigration (as a growing number in England, e.g., are doing) plus loving the world being multicultural, is actually a Left- NOT Right-wing attitude/policy.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 09:53 AM

For a start, the left vs right thing is a complete over simplification of the world. There are so many different types of cultural groups, national identity plays a part but is not a definitive factor in what makes a culture and what divides different cultures. A 'culture' can consist of anything that draws a group of people together, whether it be a spiritual belief, a type of music, a career, a drug, sex, political leaning, anything that plays a significant part in people's lives.

In the past, geographical boundaries were more significant in the impact on cultural groups, but this does not mean that cultural influence stopped dead at international borders.

With regard to the topic, it is interesting to discuss which instruments are linked with which nations, but I believe that no single instrument could represent the English nation and its rich and varied past (and present!)


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 09:58 AM

Walkaboutsverse, Sounds to me that what you are wanting is some sort of Soviet Russian precisely defined view of cultural/folkloric national identity then? You don't sound very Left-wing to me.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Chris P.
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 10:00 AM

Sorry, that was me.
Chris.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 10:04 AM

and the post previosu to that was me!


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 10:15 AM

"I believe that no single instrument could represent the English nation and its rich and varied past (and present!)" - here we do agree, Joe (I think?!)...I genuinely did not know England's national musical-instrument, but did refer, at the very top, to my list of "INSTRUMENTS OF (OR CLOSELY ASSOCIATED WITH) ENGLAND"...to which I've added BELLS and a couple of others, via this discussion.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 10:42 AM

Still say that it has to be 'Brass'


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 10:46 AM

That's on the new list...and mind if I call you GeorgianBRASS, from now on?!


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 10:55 AM

I wouldnt say Brass can be linked with the English national culture as a whole - the tradition, as I understand it is linked strongly to the mining communities of the North which is a culture of its own which happens to be in England.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 11:23 AM

There are plenty of brass bands outside mining communities. In my youth one of the top bands was the GUS Footwear Band, then there were the CWS Band (a tobacco factory), Black Dyke Mills, Fairey Aviation and the Brighouse and Rastrick band was a temperance band. There are also Silver Bands which are brass bands that can afford more Duraglit. We had one in Bethnal Green (not in the North at all).
Oh, and then there's the Sally Ann..

Here's a link: http://www.harrogateband.org/ibew.htm


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 05:30 AM

A couple of years ago, there was a period "reality" TV series where a group of historians lived on a farm - as of the 17th century. And, on one episode, a period musician made a visit with, from memory, a crumhorn, pipe a tabor, mouth-blown Leistershire bagpipes, and an English cittern with 5 times 2 wire strings - plucked with a (plucked?!) feather-plectrum. So my hunch is that they were used, a lot apparently, in barber-shops and taverns, to accompany songs with just the top-line melody with, perhaps, some embellishment of it. But, if for centuries E. trads were sung unaccompanied, what were these songs?...early "barber-shop songs"?..folk-come-art songs?...and who is performing them now?...


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 02:52 PM

Greg Stephens: I said there were Irish and Scottish styles (plural, -I wasn't meaning one of each, and that I wasn't convinced that there was an English style pre-Swarby. OK, I'm open to being convinced on this point. Re-reading the comment after your 'shooting me down in flames', as I predicted somebody would, I see how my use of the phrase 'an English style' was a bit misleading.
Were the English ever renowned for their playing of a particular instrument? The Irish harpers of the middle ages were. (And incidentally, regarding the harp, the ancient Egyptian (and other) harps did not have the front pillar. The 'triangular' harp - i.e. having the soundbox, wrest plank and front pillar - is reckoned to be a celtic - possibly Irish - development, just as the Highland pipes are a Scottish development.) England may be known for its Brass Band tradition, and for its Change-ringing, but that doesn't necessarily mean that individual brass players or bell ringers are particularay virtuosic. This does not necessarily rule out these traditions as being representative, of course. I was just ruminating. (All right - waffling).
John Kelly.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 02:49 PM

Just been revelling in Julie Driscoll, Brian Auger and the Trinity's uniquely Engish take on Wheel's On Fire prior to Batman on BBC4, and noticed, as I suppose I never have before, that the whole thing is drenches & dripping in delicious Mellotron. Well, if we're including the Stylophone (at my insistence I might add!) then the Mellotron has got to be in there too.

What would English music be without it? Wheel's On Fire notwithstanding, there's - The Moody Blues Nights in White Satin, King Crimson's Epitaph, Joy Division's Closer album, Matching Mole's eponymous first album and - countless, countless others, exploiting this uniquely sounding & most English sounding of all English musical instruments making some of the most uniquely English of all English Music, like - er - Hero & Heroine by Strawbs anyone?

That last one's the closest I think of a Mellotron in a folkish context by the way, but I'm not so well up on such things so if anyone's got any other examples, hoik 'em on.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 11:55 AM

Bagpipes (early 16th century):

http://www.goodbagpipes.co.uk/englishindex.htm


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 11:56 AM

http://www.goodbagpipes.co.uk/englishindex.htm


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 12:15 PM

Thanks, Jim - I'd heard of all but the last two double-pipes on your list.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 03:35 PM

As with the Leicestershire Bagpipes, all these bagpipes are Julian Acre's innovations based on various iconographical evidences and, as such, they are entirely non-traditional & hypothetical - but bloody excellent modern (Scottish?) bagpipes all the same.

In this respect I am presently working on The English (or Luttrell) Hurdy-Gurdy based on the hitherto called impossible hurdy-gurdy found in the margins of The Luttrell Psalter.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 04:25 PM

The Hexham Abbey Double Bagpipes


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 05:25 PM

Julian Acre? That should be Julian Goodacre of course!


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 10:06 AM

I'm sure many Englsih toddlers were playing on the linoleum as soon as they could crawl...


RtS
(I'll get me romper suit)


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 10:56 AM

'Insane Beard' - I understand that Julian Goodacre's bagpipes are innovations, but the evidence is there that bagpipes were around in England at least 500 years ago.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 11:41 AM

the evidence is there that bagpipes were around in England at least 500 years ago.

I think you'll find they were around a lot earlier than that, Jim - hence my link to the Hexham Abbey double bagpiper which is 500 years old at least. There's bagpipers in The Luttrell Psalter, from 700 years ago, and earlier ones too. However, as to what sort of bagpipes they might have been, or what sort of music was being played on them, no one can say with any degree of certainty - which doesn't stop us making a few educated guesses and even having a bash at reconstruction.

My objection is to the Goodacre Leicestershire Bagpipe being included in a list of National and Indigenous Musical Instruments when it was only invented some 20 years ago. Likewise the other Goodacre innovations, however so based on whatever ancient iconography, they remain entirely hypothetical, but no less valid as the fine modern instruments they undoubtedly are.

One might draw a map of a Bagpipe Nation - one that stretches from North Africa to Scotland, and all points between & often beyond; one that transcends national boundaries, and one that flies in the face of any notion of Nationalism, despite the role that certain species of bagpipes have to that cause in certain countries. Bagpipes are essentially a migratory species; in the Morpeth Chantry Bagpipe Museum in Northumberland, there is a set of Indian bagpipes lovingly carved from ivory; and one hears of Indian classical musicians adopting the regimental Highland Pipes on which to play ragas.

I applaud Julian Goodacre's instruments, and I've got my eye on a set or two myself, but in the cause of a love of music, and humanity, and most certainly not the nationalist cause that began this thread.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 02:23 PM

The electric guitar.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 02:44 PM

"One might draw a map of a Bagpipe Nation - one that stretches from North Africa to Scotland, and all points between & often beyond; one that transcends national boundaries, and one that flies in the face of any notion of Nationalism, despite the role that certain species of bagpipes have to that cause in certain countries. Bagpipes are essentially a migratory species; in the Morpeth Chantry Bagpipe Museum in Northumberland, there is a set of Indian bagpipes lovingly carved from ivory" (IB)...they do have a map at that good museum, which shows the various bagpipes of the world, WITHIN their nation of origin.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 03:14 PM

So what is the nation of origin of the bagpipe, WAV? And should we perhaps send them all back there?


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 06:39 AM

I don't know IB, but I do know that you yourself just referred to "Indian bagpipes"...surely it's a good thing that there are now different pipes/earthy sounds from different nations..?


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 07:02 AM

I think he meant bagpipes made in India. There isn't THAT much difference between different pipes, regionally. The most significant differences are in pumps versus lungs.
Pipes are very popular among Arabs, both in in the Levant and Egypt. Pipes were used traditionally until the end of the 18th century, when they nearly died out. British influence brought in the Scottish greatpipes, which are now an integral part of village weddings in Egypt. I remember going to Nazareth for the Christmas parade as a child and hearing the Arab pipe bands playing local tunes and Christmas songs. Later, when I was in the army, I heard an Arab practising one late at night, not far from the base.
Primitive pipes, often made from sheep bladders, are still in use among Kurds, or were, until just recently.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Fidjit
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 07:08 AM

Cannons

The ones of war

Seem as if I can still hear them roaring.

Been popular all of my lifetime so far.

Chas

PS. But being also electrically connected (Whoops! Touch of sparks there)my vote also goes for Wheatstone,s concertina.

C.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 08:14 AM

I don't know IB, but I do know that you yourself just referred to "Indian bagpipes"...surely it's a good thing that there are now different pipes/earthy sounds from different nations..?

Just one nation, WAV - the Bagpipe Nation as I say, which stretches from North Africa to Scotland and all points in between & often beyond. Culturally diverse, but unified with respect to this particular innovation which originated, as with so many things, in the Arabic world with the reed-pipes and shawms that by some other route of organological evolution became the orchestral clarinet and oboe respectively. The shawms & pipes still exist in diverse & innumerable variations (please note this with respect to the last line of #96 of your poems) pretty much unchanged; my brother brings me idioglottal cane reed-pipes made and sold by children on the streets of Damascus. Part of the traditional way of playing them is circular breathing, which at some point 2000 years ago suggested the use of a bag.

How this then manifests itself into the various types of bagpipe is largely a matter of applied technology with respect to the cultural software of where such things at last fetch up. In Northumbria for example, where the aristocratic French Musette (itself derived, supposedly, from folk prototypes in Brittany) was adopted by certain the native musicians to become the Northumbrian Smallpipe, which further interfaces with the Highland Pipe to create the various Border hybrids, cauld-winds & half-longs we know today.

Different pipes & earthy sounds indeed, but inside the drones of the Scottish babpipe is the same idioglottal cane reed that could be found in Ancient Egyptian reed pipes 4000 years ago; which is identical to that being made by kids on the streets of Damascus today, with or without the bag, or balloon, or bladder, which in many cases is optional.

The facts are there to be enjoyed, WAV - studied & pondered over not to be bent out of shape to fit your cranky nationalistic conclusions.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 12:21 PM

Re: "cranky nationalistic conclusions" (IB)...as I've said here, and ad infinitum on mudcat, nationalism with conquest IS bad; but nationalism with eco-travel and fair-trade, via a stonger UN, is good for humanity.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 01:15 PM

So you say, WAV - and so you keep saying, yes, indeed, ad infinitum, along with all your other specious nonsensical and racist rhetoric no doubt in the rather fascistic hope that if you say something often enough it will eventually become true. True for you maybe, but not true for me or anyone else for that matter - so why bother? Just enjoy the music and enough of the bollocks ideology already.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 01:23 PM

You haven't <> (sorry, have no idea how to do italics) HOW nationalism with eco-travel and fair-trade is good for humanity.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 02:49 PM

IB - these days, you reduce almost anything I post to "racist rheroric", probably partly in hope that others will follow suit: there IS a difference between racism and questioning immigration/the kind of nationalism and regulationism I advocate/caring about one's own culture. Also, there's what we want and the tactics we are prepared to use...please mind yours.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 02:55 PM

You haven't explained HOW nationalism with eco-travel and fair-trade is good for humanity.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: s&r
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 04:27 PM

For me WAV the part of your rhetoric that smacks of racism is your bizarre belief in a purity of some imaginary English nation of some fifty years or so ago. Or perhaps even longer ago when buxom wenches served pints of English ale in flagons to the tune of the local barber playing he cittern (because of course serving ale is OK: serving tennis balls is not)

Stu


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 04:40 PM

Ooops, sweaty fingers. Should rally stop reading WAV's nonsense threads - I only do it to read the other people who join in.

Volgadon, you want < i > without the gaps at the start of the sentence and < / i > without the gaps at the end. Had to add the gaps or it would have been:

Volgadon, you want without the gaps at the start of the sentence and without the gaps at the end. Had to add the gaps or it would have been:

Which would have been neither arse nor feather nor hole in the ground.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 05:03 PM

SC - although it clearly wasn't for me, thanks: I've learned something this day.
Stu, apart from your ad nauseum use of the R-word, I quite like that "buxom" picture you paint.
Also for Volgadon - links are just: click on the "Make a link" link, then type in or copy/paste the full (with http://www.) URL to the top space, and the letters you wish as a link in the space below.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 05:23 PM

Links are just what?
I wasn't asking for help with links, but with italics.
Now, do answer. HOW is nationalism with eco-travel and fair-trade good for humanity.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 05:36 PM

Sorry, I thought I'd seen you struggle with links on another thread...but, either way, we're both apples with both links and italics now. "Now, do answer. HOW is nationalism with eco-travel and fair-trade good for humanity" (Volgadon)...good for humanity as alternatives to imperialism and economic/capitalist immigration/emigration...as ways of reducing the rotten inequality in the world and keeping it nice and multicultural, plus more peaceful, etc.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 05:45 PM

This thread is no longer about England's national musical instrument. In fact it's no longer about music, and should either stop or move below the line.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 06:36 PM

: Were the English ever renowned for their playing of a particular instrument?

Some were. Nicolson was the world's superstar on the flute in his time. John Bull was probably the best keyboard player of his time. Dowland was one of Europe's best lutenists.

> There isn't THAT much difference between different pipes, regionally.
> The most significant differences are in pumps versus lungs.

Nope. The choice of mouth or bellows power doesn't affect the sound, technique or design much. There are two basically different designs of bagpipe, which diverged very early on. Probably the older one is the type with two equal or very similar chanters and no drones, like the Black Sea tulum, Dalmatian bagpipe or North African mezaoued. The other type has one chanter and at least one drone, like the Scottish Highland pipe, Northumbrian pipes or Bulgarian gaida. The double-chanter one is for the most part geographically south of the single-chanter one. No culture has traditionally used both types.

There is one place where they converge, the Cornish pipe that Julian Goodacre has reconstructed - it's a twin-bore chanter but made as large as a typical single-chanter pipe.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 07:56 PM

IB - these days, you reduce almost anything I post to "racist rheroric", probably partly in hope that others will follow suit: there IS a difference between racism and questioning immigration/the kind of nationalism and regulationism I advocate/caring about one's own culture. Also, there's what we want and the tactics we are prepared to use...please mind yours.

Unlike you, WAV, my tactics do not involve the promotion & publication of an ideology with has been proven beyond any shadow of a doubt to amount to a retarded racist diatribe. I am not trying garner support here - people can, and people do, figure it out for themselves. There is no difference between racism and questioning immigration whilst simultaneously advocating nationalism and caring for one's own culture as a highly selective and grossly distorted version of same according to your racially exclusive maxims on what may, or may not, constitute Englishness. That you believe this Englishness is under threat as the consequence of immigration is but further proof of your racism; also, that you believe England was a more English place 50 years ago.

And what position are you in to advocate anything? Get things in perspective here, WAV; the most any of us can ever do is to simply get on with our lives in the hope that by doing so we might enable others to do likewise. Too many grand schemes, WAV - too many big notions which bypass any sort reality I'm familiar with. I don't know how you've managed it, but you've got your head stuck up your arse and in the clouds at the same time - your life's work indeed.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 08:36 PM

"good for humanity as alternatives to imperialism and economic/capitalist immigration/emigration...as ways of reducing the rotten inequality in the world and keeping it nice and multicultural, plus more peaceful, etc."

BUT HOW????? Please specify. The devil is the details.
Have you ever considered a carreer in the Communist party? They love slogans.


": Were the English ever renowned for their playing of a particular instrument?

Some were. Nicolson was the world's superstar on the flute in his time. John Bull was probably the best keyboard player of his time. Dowland was one of Europe's best lutenists."

Eric Clapton and Jimmy Page on electric guitar spring to mind (as do dozens upon dozens of others).....


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 03:01 AM

what the hell IS all this about?

Of course we haven't get a national instrument. Otherwise we'd all know about it.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Wolfhound person
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 04:06 AM

"In Northumbria for example, where the aristocratic French Musette (itself derived, supposedly, from folk prototypes in Brittany) was adopted by certain the native musicians to become the Northumbrian Smallpipe," (IB)

No, sorry. The likelihood is that hummelschen (a small quiet bagpipe)played in the low countries in the C16/17 were brought back by mercenary soldiers, and became the basic nsp. These were then developed over 200 years (with nods in the direction of the musette and lots over other influences) to become modern nsp.

They're not a national instrument. They're a regional one. I don't think there is a national one.

Paws


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 04:27 AM

Thanks, Paws - I appreciate the picture is always going to be more complicated than otherwise assumed, but, whatever the case, indigenous they certainly aren't.

And, for both Paws ad WLD - England's National Musical instrument is The Bell; not sure what sort of bell - cow-bell, door-bell, bicycle bell, church bell, ships bell, Lloyd's bell, dinner bell, desk bell, school bell, death bell, cat bell, falcon bell, Morris bell...

I'm off. Life's too short.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 04:37 AM

hummelschen (a small quiet bagpipe)

Whatever happened to that? Gone the way of the small quiet accordion, I suppose, along with the thunder of the contra-bass tabor and the mighty roar of the battle-flute. Eheu.

cow-bell, door-bell, bicycle bell, church bell, ships bell, Lloyd's bell, dinner bell, desk bell, school bell, death bell, cat bell, falcon bell, Morris bell...

I've probably quoted this before, but John Hegley's lines on Englishness sum it up quite nicely:

I like bells in church towers
And bells below the knee
I like Morris dancing
And I like Morrissey


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 05:46 AM

In the 17th Century the cornett (the treble version of the serpent)was considered to be the English speciality.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 08:10 AM

"And what position are you in to advocate anything?" (IB)...4 techinical certificates in manufacturing; a BA in Humanities, majoring in athropology; about 40 countries on a shoestring, etc....which led me to question all the exaggerated deregulation/laissez faire of the 90s onward, and promote REGULATIONISM in financial markets, immigration/emigration, club-football, etc. Yes - REGULATIONISM - a word suddenly in the headlines...and, of all the ISMS, the best way forward for humanity, along with the kind of nationalism I've defined on Mudcat and here.
But, if you just can't listen to me, here's William Shakespeare, from Measure for Measure: "Liberty, as surfeit, is the father of much fast."


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 08:55 AM

Maybe like the other WAV thread re 5000 Morris dancers, This one should be sent below the line.
Indeed probably all threads started by WAV should suffer the same fate.
A decision for the moderators, methinks


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 09:27 AM

IB: when I'm watching TV I often practise muted scales on my pocket trumpet

Never heard it called that before...

Ralphie - to be fair, there has been some good & knowledgeable discussion on this thread. However, WAV has posted five comments in the last 24 hours, none of which had any reference to music. Unless the thread gets back on track (perhaps by other posters ignoring WAV's endless provocations), I'd say it's heading for BS-land.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Joe P
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 09:43 AM

How about REGULATION of provocative posts on mudcat, such as those promoting racist immigration policies and cultural segregation?

Either that or we should regulate the folk music of today, all this creativity is just not on.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 09:56 AM

And what position are you in to advocate anything?" (IB)...4 techinical certificates in manufacturing; a BA in Humanities, majoring in athropology; about 40 countries on a shoestring, etc....which led me to question all the exaggerated deregulation/laissez faire of the 90s onward, and promote REGULATIONISM in financial markets, immigration/emigration, club-football, etc. Yes - REGULATIONISM - a word suddenly in the headlines...and, of all the ISMS, the best way forward for humanity, along with the kind of nationalism I've defined on Mudcat and here.
But, if you just can't listen to me, here's William Shakespeare, from Measure for Measure: "Liberty, as surfeit, is the father of much fast."

Please explain in greater detail what you mean by regulationism. Redefine nationalism, how you see it, please.
As someone with a degree, you oght to know that debate is only possible when terms have been defined.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 09:58 AM

WAV, I think we can concede that you may be qualified to pontificate on manufacturing, anthropology and possibly backpacking. Having tried to read your poetry and listen to your music, it is painfully obvious that you are unqualified to pontificate on either.

As for your other views, if you are not prepared to debate or justify them (constantly repeating them or referencing your poetry is not sufficient) then you shouldn't expect us to take them seriously. It is your repeated failure to enter into debate, despite having academic qualifications which should have equipped you to do so, that disqualifies you.

It is good that you, as a fairly recent migrant, should be so keen to rediscover your roots. However your perceptions of the country and culture you have returned to are so mistaken as to be comical. I am reminded of the sketch in Goodness Gracious Me of the the Indian family who try too hard to be British.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 10:01 AM

If ye regulates everything, then who regulates the regulators? Who sets the rules?

The solution to worldwide famine? More food! See, its easy to come out with such ideas.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 12:26 PM

To Pip, Ralphie, etc. - this is surely a case of damned if I do/damned if I don't answer all manner of questions.
E.g:

And what position are you in to advocate anything?" (IB)..."4 techinical certificates in manufacturing; a BA in Humanities, majoring in athropology; about 40 countries on a shoestring, etc....which led me to question all the exaggerated deregulation/laissez faire of the 90s onward, and promote REGULATIONISM in financial markets, immigration/emigration, club-football, etc. Yes - REGULATIONISM - a word suddenly in the headlines...and, of all the ISMS, the best way forward for humanity, along with the kind of nationalism I've defined on Mudcat and here.
But, if you just can't listen to me, here's William Shakespeare, from Measure for Measure: "Liberty, as surfeit, is the father of much fast." (me)

"Please explain in greater detail what you mean by regulationism. Redefine nationalism, how you see it, please.
As someone with a degree, you oght to know that debate is only possible when terms have been defined." (Volgadon)...

By regultionism I mean accepting that humans will always be competitive, and having stong regulations to make that competition as fair as possible - with safety nets (from here).

And I mean nationalism WITHOUT imperialism and WITH eco-travel and fair-trade between nations, via a stronger UN (also from here).


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 12:56 PM

To Pip, Ralphie, etc. - this is surely a case of damned if I do/damned if I don't answer all manner of questions.

No, it's a case of damned if you insist on going on at great length about your weird and uninteresting political views ON A MUSIC THREAD. The correct response to your questioners - and that's 'correct' purely in terms of Mudcat etiquette - would be "This is a music thread, but I'll be happy to answer any specific questions about my weird and uninteresting political views on the thread I've just started below the line."


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 01:48 PM

WAV, what sort of regulations, what sort of safety nets. DETAILS, please.

"And I mean nationalism WITHOUT imperialism and WITH eco-travel and fair-trade between nations, via a stronger UN"

You must have repeated that nigh on one hundred times. DEFINE nationalism, please.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,EricTheOrange
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 02:53 PM

Oh my gawd -- not again!!!!!!!!!!!! No wonder the aussies sent him back!


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 04:00 PM

By regultionism I mean accepting that humans will always be competitive, and having stong regulations to make that competition as fair as possible - with safety nets

And who's going to do the regulating, WAV? Not a human being surely, given that human competitiveness is the problem. So, here's my suggestion* - how about we create a race of pan-dimensional intergalactic all-powerful ultra-mega super robot-droids whose sole purpose is the policing of humanity least we ever get out of hand? That would be a sure way to keep that competition fair, to make sure no one stepped out of line or ever acted in least bit human again for fear of being zapped into nothingness with a ZX-4000 Super-Zarg Disintegrational Disrupterositter Beam.

Well - makes about as much sense as the drivel you spout, WAV - for all your swimming medals, eco-tourism, degrees, cycling proficiency certificates, merit awards and whatever fucking chufty badges you think qualifies you to evacuate your bowels on subjects you know absolutely nothing about.   

Meanwhile, for some real Traditional English Pop Music of the highest order, we're setting in for a night of ROXY MUSIC on BBC4.

* Admittedly this idea is derived, in part, from the plot of The Day the Earth Stood Still - but that's as much a part of my Cultural Heritage and Own Good Culture as anything else; those dark November nights we'd go Cob-a-Coaling, up the ladder, down the wall, guising round the dirty back lanes and no matter how well we were doing we'd always be back home in time for Star Trek...


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 07:08 PM

Well, okay, but I don't want any robots or pointy-eared Vulcans living next door to me!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 04:14 AM

It's those Whinging Poms you've got to watch out for...


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 06:38 AM

would a union jack on a nose flute settle the matter at this stage?


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 08:18 AM

Maybe that is the answer to the british Empire.
No instrument or culture of your own so why not go out and steal someone elses?


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 08:30 AM

whatever, you do - don't steal anybody's nose flute who seems to have a heavy cold. Not even in the name of the Queen.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 09:58 AM

"Oh my gawd -- not again!!!!!!!!!!!! No wonder the aussies sent him back!" (Eric)...no, definitely of my own free will.

"By regultionism I mean accepting that humans will always be competitive, and having stong regulations to make that competition as fair as possible - with safety nets" (me, above)...
"And who's going to do the regulating, WAV? Not a human being surely, given that human competitiveness is the problem. So, here's my suggestion* - how about we create a race of pan-dimensional intergalactic all-powerful ultra-mega super robot-droids whose sole purpose is the policing of humanity least we ever get out of hand? That would be a sure way to keep that competition fair, to make sure no one stepped out of line or ever acted in least bit human again for fear of being zapped into nothingness with a ZX-4000 Super-Zarg Disintegrational Disrupterositter Beam" (IB)...the UN.

And to a-bit-harsh Pip: we do get back to instruments now and again - check our Weelittledrummer, e.g.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 01:12 PM

Sorry, wrong again. I repeat, the correct response to your questioners - and that's 'correct' purely in terms of Mudcat etiquette - would be "This is a music thread, but I'll be happy to answer any specific questions about my weird and uninteresting political views on the thread I've just started below the line." Either that or ignore the question and post something about music instead (I'd say you're halfway there).


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 01:46 PM

..."Jerusalem" which was just sung at the Twickenham charity rugby game, goes down to B below middle-C in the "Hymns Ancient and Modern"/"English Hymnal" version; hence, a tenor English flute player must transpose to a key other than D...and I think F is best..?


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 03:43 PM

Oh, a collection of bickering nations, each with their own self-interest at stake?
"And who's going to do the regulating, WAV? Not a human being surely, given that human competitiveness is the problem. So, here's my suggestion* - how about we create a race of pan-dimensional intergalactic all-powerful ultra-mega super robot-droids whose sole purpose is the policing of humanity least we ever get out of hand? That would be a sure way to keep that competition fair, to make sure no one stepped out of line or ever acted in least bit human again for fear of being zapped into nothingness with a ZX-4000 Super-Zarg Disintegrational Disrupterositter Beam" (IB)

...the UN."


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 03:56 PM

Sorry Pip (makes me think of Dickens); yes, Volgadon, "GLOBAL REGULATIONISM" (see this week's WEEKLY WALKABOUT in the BS section), including fair-trade - via the UN, the nations within the UN, and local/county councils within nations.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 05:36 AM

"GLOBAL REGULATIONISM" (see this week's WEEKLY WALKABOUT in the BS section), including fair-trade - via the UN, the nations within the UN, and local/county councils within nations.

I think WAV's setting himself up for world presidency here; a nice multi-cultural world it'll be too, with all the nations ethnically cleansed and sorted and everyone put back where they belong and given strict instructions on what instruments they may or may not play and what songs they may or may not sing. And anyone who doesn't fit, or is just naturally recalcitrant to such a mind-numbing regime... well there'll be a special train for those no doubt; it'll have to be a bloody big one, and I'll be the first on it because I'm sure I'd rather be dead than live in such a world. Then WAV gets the third of his three-wishes - a smaller population!

We were out and about in Newcastle yesterday; first stop, the City Surplus Stores, an Asian-owned friendly family business which has clothed Tyneside's alternative scene for thirty years and more; second stop, the Laing Art Gallery to visit some dear old friends (though Isabella is away on her travels) and for a customary whinge about modern art. Afterwards, we tucked into Subways beneath the dribbling statue of Old Father Tyne nearby the monolith that commemorates the visit of President Jimmy Carter in May 1977 - the same month I saw The Damned supporting T Rex at the City Hall. Then it was off to visit some more old friends in The Museum of Antiquities only to find they've closed it down and are relocating the collection to the Great North Museum, that was once The Hancock. Things change, move on, and it's always the first time for someone. In Windows, I played a Chieftain D whistle (£130) that was so loud it hurt my ears; I also had a go on a Mexican guitarron - a fretless acoustic bass which sounded lovely. Also in Windows, I bought a banjo capo so as I might play my old fiddle in the manner of a kemence. Outside in the Central Arcade we applauded a couple of young lads who were busking pop songs with acoustic guitars to the beat of the Djembe player who was drumming up a storm 100 yards away on Gray's Monument. We stood in the crowds to watch the Native American couple busking in costume in Northumberland Street (dream catchers on the the PA - nice touch!) and further down a raggy delegation of Hare Krishnas had a nice groove going on outside of Marks & Spensers.

Newcastle-upon-Tyne - The Toon - business very much as usual. I didn't see any Morris Dancers, Folk Singers (though I did sing The Leg of the Mallard to the Civic Centre ducks) or any other evidence of WAV-type ersatz volkishness. I did see a lot of happy Geordies though, of all colours and ethnicities, and students, and freshers; and no indication of anyone losing their culture nor yet of society suffering as a result.

Let's just consider that again shall we?

"GLOBAL REGULATIONISM" (see this week's WEEKLY WALKABOUT in the BS section), including fair-trade - via the UN, the nations within the UN, and local/county councils within nations.

And he has the neck to say he's not racist. WAV - you're a disgrace to humanity.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 06:38 AM

Here is an interesting statement by a Maxim Goryachev, who may or may not be the same social activisit I know, need to check, but it's food for thought.

I don't like salo (pig lard, the national Ukrainian delicacy), I don't wear an embroidered shirt and don't know the words to the Ukrainian national anthem.

I haven't swam across the Dnepr and can't dance the hopak (best known of all Ukrainian dances, with lots of jumping). There is no copy of "Kobzar" (a poem by Taras Shevchenko, one of the foremost nationalists) on my desk and the walls are not lined with rushnyks (ritual, embroiedered towels). My blood is red, not blue and yellow.
The three most important words I said in Russian. Am I Ukrainian?

I'm a dedicated fan of "Dynamo" (footie club), a fan of Klichko and Klochkova (the former a boxer, the latter, a swimmer).

I saw this land from the window of a Boeing, but I returned. I don't need neon cities and silicone women. I don't want to live there where the streets are nameless and the people have no patronymics.
I'll remain here. Here the fires which swept the land have barely gone out and the names of our forefathers are still visible on the memorial plaques (I.E. WW2 wasn't too far back).
Here girls read in the subway and write verses in the margins of textbooks. On the money here are poets, not presidents.
Here people have a good sense of humour and smile openly, sincerely.
I'm Ukrainian.

I love the narrow streets of Lvov and the avenues in Kharkov. Easy-going Odessa, business-like Donetsk and the legendary Poltava, they have all become dear to me.

I don't trust patriots on podiums, I believe in the man in the trenches.
I believe in this land- I trust this air, these mountains, these people, who keep their word.
I love the sound my feet make against the tiles on Khreshatik st (the central street of Kiev), the creaking of the snow in the Carpathians and the rustling of the waves in the Crimea.
I will never forget the lullabies I've heard, or the kisses I received on Andreevsky st.

And what is more, I frequently dream about the vast blue skies and sunflower fields. My son will be born here. I'm Ukrainian!


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 08:42 AM

"I also had a go on a Mexican guitarron - a fretless acoustic bass which sounded lovely. Also in Windows, I bought a banjo capo so as I might play my old fiddle in the manner of a kemence." (IB)...haven't been for a few weeks, do they stock English citterns now?

So you were happy to get a taste of all those other musical genres, in a city of England, without any "Morris Dancers, Folk Singers" (IB)...as I say, you are an extreme pro-immigrationist, and a lot of tradies, including me, would be bothered by the lack of English culture you describe, as would many foreign tourists, scraping through the haystack to try and find a needle of the English culture they intended to get a taste of.

However, "customary whinge about modern art." (IB)...we'd agree on that one!


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 09:37 AM

Ummm, WAV, for most tourists, English culture seems to riding on a double-decker and poking faces at the sentries at Buckingham Palace.....
They don't really go searching for English culture, let alone your perception of it. Now, do find me a refference to there being morris dancers in city streets on a daily basis?


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 09:43 AM

Please, please, please, please, take it somewhere else. This thread is currently getting far more prominence than it deserves - and giving WAV's political opinions far more prominence than they deserve. Mods?


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 12:17 PM

haven't been for a few weeks, do they stock English citterns now?

No such thing as an English Cittern, WAV - at least not with the sort of continuous provenance you dream of; it's a reinvented beast along the lines of the Irish Bouzouki. Like the English Flute, it exists only in your fevered imagination.

So you were happy to get a taste of all those other musical genres, in a city of England, without any "Morris Dancers, Folk Singers" (IB)

Of course I was happy! These were all people out there, doing stuff for the love of it and very much a part of the very English cosmopolitan cultural ambience of this very cosmopolitan English city - my home town indeed, from which I now live some 130 miles distant. I was there with my wife, and my son and daughter - 21 & 27 respectively - who both still live there, and who both, though brought up in very folkie household, are avid fans of hip-hop and have no time for folk music in any shape or form! How cool's that? And, as proud as I am of them, I am proud too to be a Geordie, and never prouder than I was yesterday, soaking it all in and stocking up with Gregg's stotties and all. We also went along Stowell Street, aka China Town, the supermarkets & restaurants & buffets of which have been an integral aspect of the cultural landscape of Newcastle since my childhood - long before you fetched up with your grubby evil notions of Ersatz Englishness; likewise the Asian shops on the West Road, where back in the early 1980s we lived on Fazal's superlative samosas whilst freely mixing experimental industrial noise and Traditional English Folk Song, lazing summer days to the music of Billy Pigg or seeking out the wonders to be had on Thursday nights at The Bridge Folk Club.   

as I say, you are an extreme pro-immigrationist, and a lot of tradies, including me, would be bothered by the lack of English culture you describe,

How dare call yourself a Traddy or yet use the word to justify your racist bullshit? I am more of an English Traddy that you'll ever be, WAV - in the English Traddy stakes I could whip your sorry Aussie arse all around England and back again. You are a man who by his own proud boast has only 17 E Trads in his repertoire, and most of them sourced from an American website. Moreover, you have an expressed intention of never learning any more. What sort of Traddy is that? There are some 70 E trads in the PBOEFS; when I was fifteen I made a point of learning them all. I have been singing E trads for over thirty-three years and have forgotton more songs than you'll ever know. I'm still trying to research and learn 5 new songs at any one time; and, furthermore, I am still learning what it means to be a Traddy.

One thing I do know however, is that with the territory of being a true English Traddy goes an understanding of just what place Traditional English Folk Song, Dance and Folklore has within English Culture as a whole - that it's very much a revived minority hobbyist passion with no actual traditional currency whatsoever. For my feelings on this, please read my polemical blog The Liege, the Lief and the Traditional English Folk Song over at my Myspace page. Heavens, man - you seem to be labouring under the illusion that by learning 17 E trads you have become a Traditional English Folk Singer. In this respect I fear, you are, at best, at the beginning of a very long & fruitful journey (in which case I wish you God Speed) or, at worst, utterly & hopelessly deluded (in which case, sir, I bid you Good Riddance).

as would many foreign tourists, scraping through the haystack to try and find a needle of the English culture they intended to get a taste of.

Any tourist would find plenty of English Culture in Newcastle or any English town or city they visited; it's there at every turn. But if they wanted Trad. E. Folk Song, Dance (etc.) they'd have to adopt a more specialist approach for a more specialised taste, lurking as it does on the fringes and in the shadowy places which are its natural habitats. They'd find out about Joe Crane's first Saturday Come-All-Ye at The Cumberland Arms, and they'd be sure to find it thriving too, as the whole folk scene is; indeed doing rather better now than it ever has in any point since the revival began. But please note: it's just a revival, WAV - a minority hobby that in no way shape or form constitutes English Culture. And remember - only 0.028% of the English population are Morris Dancers, and most of them probably do Line Dancing too. I wonder what the percentage is for singers of E trads, unaccompanied or otherwise?

However, "customary whinge about modern art." (IB)...we'd agree on that one!

Don't be so sure, WAV - as well as being an extreme pro-immigrationist and extreme English Traddy, I am also an extreme modernist in respect of political philosophy, humanism and art. I whinge about modern art because it cow-tows to the simpering vacuities of the post-modern whilst maintaining its status as comfortable corporate gew-gaw on the cultural mantelpiece of the mediocre. That said, I liked Claire Morgan's Gone With the Wind exhibit at the Laing and would strongly recommend a visit next time you're passing.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Dave (Bridge)
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 02:41 PM

Wish you hadn't mentioned Joe Crane's Cum all ye. We don't want it spoilt


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Fidjit
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 02:58 PM

Pip Radish

I agree.

Perhaps it's time to get out my English National Musical Instrument suggestion and prove the point.

Chas










































Perhaps i


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 05:33 AM

Pip and Fidgit - we ARE discussing/arguing ON-THREAD a fair bit of the time here, so, if you don't like it, simply don't click on it, rather than whinging to the Mods.

IB - we agree on the stotties but "my son and daughter - 21 & 27 respectively - who both still live there, and who both, though brought up in very folkie household, are avid fans of hip-hop and have no time for folk music in any shape or form! How cool's that?"...as ice.
"I am still learning what it means to be a Traddy." (IB)...we agree on that too.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Working Radish
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 06:25 AM

Really? The last comment about the ostensible topic of this thread was 34 comments and three days ago. The fact that you seem entirely untroubled by this drift away from musical topics, WAV - and, in fact, seem to welcome it - makes me wonder, again, about your motives in posting here.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 08:29 AM

Rubbish, Radish...try, e.g., a handful of posts to IB's mention/questioning of the English cittern.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 09:28 AM

IB - we agree on the stotties but "my son and daughter - 21 & 27 respectively - who both still live there, and who both, though brought up in very folkie household, are avid fans of hip-hop and have no time for folk music in any shape or form! How cool's that?"...as ice.

My children are native born English people, WAV; and like all native born English people, they have the free will to choose what Englishness means to them. They too know more about Traditional English Folk Music than you ever will, but - and get this - they simply don't like it. And why the hell should they like it? It's not as if it was ever part of the wider cultural context of working-class Tyneside in which they grew up. It's just a remnant of something old, songs now sung by middle-aged middle-class enthusiasts in the museum of their own imaginings. A good place to be for some of us perhaps, but for most people it's complete and utter nonsense.

Culture is not the absolute commodity you seem to think it is - it's not something you can buy your way into, or yet wish yourself a part or even a practitioner of. Culture is that which life is lived by - in terms of experience, expression, communication, community and celebration - and, as such, it is the default reality of everything we are. As one who supposedly majored in anthropology, you really should understand this; just as you should also understand that what you have there isn't culture at all, English or otherwise, rather the misbegotten spoils of an Obsessive Compulsive Disorder for which I really do hope you eventually get the help you so obviously need.

"I am still learning what it means to be a Traddy." (IB)...we agree on that too.

I don't think we do agree on it though, WAV - because learning is the key to life; it's an ongoing process that begins at birth and only comes to an end when we die. Sadly, and very disappointingly, you've made it your Life's Work to be the single exception to this most glorious human rule. You're the poet who no longer writes poetry, the folk singer who no longer learns songs, the traveller who no longer travels; the hapless idealogue who assumes that all the nonsensical crap he wrote years ago is still somehow relevant, even unto himself. You reached the terminus of your life long ago; copyright 2003; at which point you stopped dead, whilst the world kept on moving, transfiguring itself with each new glorious dawn.

You've set yourself against humanity - in your thinking, your ideas, your dogma, your rhetoric; you've walled yourself in behind your own entrenched philosophy convinced that you've stumbled on an absolute truth. Truth is the very last thing it is; it doesn't even bear scrutiny on any level before people see it for the bilious racist totalitarian sexist misanthropic evil it actually is. You do this in the name of Traditional Music, you even do it in the name of Christianity, but at its heart is a big black devilish hole sucking the life from everything you claim to so love and cherish.

The solution is a simple one; de-clutter! Delete the lot and wake up to reality. Come out and play, join us in the real world before it really is too late.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 09:29 AM

Pip.

Isn't it obvious why WAV posts here???
By baiting the rest of us, he's hoping to be accepted.
A stranger in a foreign land, type of thing.
What he hasn't realised is that his way of getting to know us "foreigners" (for that is what we are in fact as far as he is concerned), will only alienate us.
What he has singularly failed to understand is that, if you beat us over the head with a stick, we will bite back.
As the rest of you well know, we all basically rub along reasonably well here in the UK. The occasional disagreement, but nothing that isn't normally dealt with with a shrug and a joke.
But a sustained attack from an interloper (For that is he) will provoke, at first, mild rebukes and mild jokes, and if the provoking continues (as is happening at the moment), downright ridicule, ending in very great anger....(we seem to be approaching that stage now).
Who wins? Well, certainly not WAV, that's for sure!
His agenda? Who really knows.
As a self-publicist (viz,) the interminable plugging of his, at first laughable, but with closer examination, subversive Website, at every opportunity, he is without equal. But ultimately pointless.
IMHO opinion his Poetry? is on a sub McGonagel level.
Seems to me, he is an Ex Pat, lost in the land of his forefathers, tryng to find where he fits after all those years down under, and failing with little self-respect left. Very sad.

So WAV, just stop trying. We are not impressed.

Hate to do comparisons, but, consider Martyn Whyndham-Read (a good friend, sorry Martyn to drag you into this)

Similar story.
Born in the UK.
Spent many years in Aus.
Came back, a talented singer, and musician, bringing his twist on Australian culture and it's links to its UKs origins.
(Check out his 2 double cds Songlinks 1 UK/Aus and Songlinks 2 UK/US)
All done with a gentle humour and a great deal of respect.

Maybe WAV, you should check these out, before we send you to Coventry.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ralphi
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 09:43 AM

NOTE TO MR BEARD (INSANE OF THIS PARISH)

You have been found guilty of referring to WAVs website as a link in your previous post, found guilty as charged (Shut up, I'm the judge here!), and have been sentenced to life imprisonment listening to some wonderful English (sic) Cittern, and English (sic) Recorder music, at a level only normally found at a Motorhead gig (you know them. That American Pop combo!),
Whilst watching (English) Woman with enourmous veined arms, Sumo Wrestling......with a dog. (English Setter obviously)
Second thoughts you can't have the last bit, you might enjoy it!!


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 11:16 AM

Culture is that which life is lived by - in terms of experience, expression, communication, community and celebration - and, as such, it is the default reality of everything we are.

True wit is nature to advantage dressed:
What oft was thought, but ne'er so well expressed. (A. Pope)

Nice one, IB.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: s&r
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 11:34 AM

Neither discussion nor argument WAV. Think of Mudcat as a group of (mostly)kindly and (almost always) knowledgeable professors with a wish to correct a learner in the fields of their expertise

Stu


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 11:41 AM

In my defence, M'lud, let me say this - that the body of work in question is often referred to as such by its author, with the html link being very much part of the typographical rendering. To this end, I confess that I did toy with rendering it thus Life's Work, or even Life's Work, but when it comes to pure vileness there is no image I know of that can possibly convey the full horror of the actual work in question.

In any case, I snickeringly accept the sentence in the knowledge that no such English Citterns or English Flutes are presently extant, but will happily accept Gentle Giant who did similar things with a full consort of wooden recorders at volumes often surpassing even that of Motorhead. Yes - Gentle Giant playing one of those confounded American Genres best heard in - where was it again - Atlanta?


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 12:26 PM

Having sat through half of a Motorhead concert ... great stuff (but dire effects on the hearing ... being deaf for half a day did little for my equilibrium) my mind boggles at the thought of recorders played at volumes exceeding Motorhead's own .... now I could understand it if you had said bombardes .... but then they aren't English are they??


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 12:38 PM

IB - realistically, your lyrics and voice (which I quite like) are E. trad, but your accompaniment is not, and you delight in the fact that elements of foreign cultures are practised much more here now than our own English ones...so, if you are a trady, you're a strange one.

"Hate to do comparisons, but, consider Martyn Whyndham-Read (a good friend, sorry Martyn to drag you into this)
Similar story.
Born in the UK.
Spent many years in Aus.
Came back, a talented singer, and musician, bringing his twist on Australian culture and it's links to its UKs origins.
(Check out his 2 double cds Songlinks 1 UK/Aus and Songlinks 2 UK/US)
All done with a gentle humour and a great deal of respect.
Maybe WAV, you should check these out, before we send you to Coventry." (Ralphie)...there is a slight chance I may one day live in Coventry, as it's WITHIN the borders of England but, unlike MW-R, I will never live in France (although I've enjoyed a VISIT there), and, as an English repat, I only practise/perform English (no-longer Australian) material. (And this is NOT nearly as radical as you make out if you remember/realise that, not so long ago, many folk-clubs in England had a pefrorm-your-own-culture policy.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 12:54 PM

Ah Mr Beard.
I have consulted with the Bench.
And we have (on your appraisal) to commute your sentence, to a medley of ...

Gentle Giant.
National Health.
Gilgamesh.
Hugh Hopper.
Matching Mole.
Caravan.
Hatfield and the North.
And, The Oevre of Kevin Coyne.....

Would that be acceptable (In a very English way!!)??


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 01:11 PM

"IB - realistically, your lyrics and voice (which I quite like) are E. trad, but your accompaniment is not, and you delight in the fact that elements of foreign cultures are practised much more here now than our own English ones...so, if you are a trady, you're a strange one."

RALPH VAUGHN-WILLIAMS. He took English folk tunes and added accompaniement which was NOT E. trad in any way shape or form.

Not only that, but your use of recorder is NOT E. trad either, WAV.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 01:27 PM

RVW, Volgadon, collected/recorded E. trad tunes and added harmonies for his New English Hymnal.
The recorder/English flute was probably rarely used by folkies here until the turn of the 20th century - but it is one of the "instruments of (or closely associated with) England" (opening post, above or here) and, thus, could be called a traditional English instrument...it's certainly been played in this land for a long time; and, at the Rothbury TRADITIONAL Music Festival, there is a competition for whistles AND recorders.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: s&r
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 01:33 PM

Would that be Irish whistles?

Stu


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 01:42 PM

For your information:
The English guitar (or guittar) was a small cittern that was fashionable between 1750 and 1790, most notably in the British Isles, closely related to other citterns that were being made in western Europe at the time (such as the instrument the French called the guitarre allemande) but with several particular specifications introduced by the English luthiers. The English cittern was brought by the English to Portugal, possibly circa 1750, through the trading activity held between the two countries at the time. This fact is observed by António da Silva Leite in 1786, who remarks in his method for the instrument the following: "The guitar, of which they say has its origins in Great-Britain..."; "Of the guitars from England, Mr. Simpson is the best maker.". The local luthiers then proceed to imitate and copy the foreign instruments. Eventually, the instrument was subject to modifications and improvements through the years and it remained popular in Portugal long after the fad died in the remaining European countries. By as early as 1820 the English already referred to it as the "Portuguese guitar".
More HERE. Scroll down.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 01:48 PM

Aha, so traddies back in the day would perform their songs with a full orchestra using innovative arrangements which were quite modern for RVW's period?

I don't see how a symphony orchestra is any more trad than a guitar or eastern fiddle.

I see that the Rothbury TRADITIONAL Music Festival also has a competition for highland bagpipes, I guess those are E. trad instruments too.

Find me one shred of evidence that any traddy or folkie before the revival ever used a recorder to play E. trad.
Without that evidence, it is nothing more than WISHFUL THINKING to call it an E. trad instrument. The kemance is just as valid.
Especially when we consider that kemances are a purely folk instrument, whereas recorders were used for POP and ART music. What is more, the earliest depiction is found in MACEDONIA.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 02:05 PM

your lyrics and voice (which I quite like) are E. trad, but your accompaniment is not, and you delight in the fact that elements of foreign cultures are practised much more here now than our own English ones...so, if you are a trady, you're a strange one.

There's your error in a nutshell, WAV. IB may delight in eating Big Macs on Cecil Sharp's grave while listening to Britney Spears for all I care - what makes him a 'traddie' is that he learns and performs traditional material. Judge him - and yourself - on musical grounds and you may, perhaps, feel slightly less entitled to pass judgment.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 02:07 PM

"Aha, so traddies back in the day would perform their songs with a full orchestra using innovative arrangements which were quite modern for RVW's period?" (Volgadon in a dizzy spell?)...please read my last post again and note RVW collected and THEN harmonised TUNES (as in top-line melodies only).
And it was mainly Germans and English who brought the recorder back as a folk and student instrument early in the 20th century...and now we have both German and English fingering/holes.

"Would that be Irish whistles?" (Stu - also on a dizzy spell?)...Irish music is sometimes played on an ENGLISH whistle...which evolved from the English flageolet in England.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 02:53 PM

WAV, RE RVW, I tried to post, but the cat is allergic to the youtube links I had. Go to youtube, type in 'English folksong suite', 'fantasia on greensleeves' and 'five variations on Dives and Lazarus', that should be enough to start from.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 03:42 PM

: Find me one shred of evidence that any traddy or folkie before the revival ever
: used a recorder to play E. trad.

Look at English recorder tutors from the mid-18th century (e.g. Rutherford). They all include a mixture of Scottish, English and Irish folk tunes (but usually more Scottish than anything else). As well as Handel, Arne and the like.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 03:47 PM

Alright, Jack, valid point.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 04:25 PM

GUEST,Volgadon posts:

Alright, Jack, valid point

That's very gracious of Volgadon, and herein lies the problem: WAV will never admit that he's wrong. I fear that he's delusional. I hope that doesn't turn nasty.

Ed


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 05:49 PM

Alright, Jack, valid point

Or perhaps not... After all, these 18th century recorder tutors were aimed at bourgeois hobbyists - hardly the traditional folk musicians whose rustic repertoires were greedily plundered out of long standing fashionably for same. A crucial difference perhaps? Also - the recorder is in no way, shape or form a folk instrument - it's a dynamic classical flute developed for chromaticism and virtuosity reaching its apotheosis as a solo orchestral instrument of the high Baroque. Requiring a relatively simple embouchure made the recorder ideal as a parlour novelty, but is that really folk music? I would say perhaps not, no matter what tunes they were playing out of their tutor books; folk music is, after all, more than dots in a tutor book. I would further argue that because the recorder died out when it was superseded by the transverse flute, a fair case can be made against it ever being considered as anything else other than the early chromatic classical flute it undoubtedly is.

When the recorder was revived it was not as a folk instrument. I think this misconception is in part due it finding its way into education as a primer for proper woodwind instruments (entirely due it being easy to cheaply mass produce in Bakelite (Dolomite?) and latterly plastic) thus effectively ruining the experience of music making for millions of school children. Not so much a musical instrument, as an instrument of torture - a further case against the recorder as folk instrument!


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 06:35 PM

thus effectively ruining the experience of music making for millions of school children

I dunno, it definitely got me started. I still remember the realisation that this thing will play whatever tune I tell it to, not just the ones I've been taught to play!: a feeling of limitless possibilities opening up, like few other experiences before or since. Yes, it was a mass-produced plastic recorder, and no, I didn't make a particularly beautiful sound with it (especially since the first tune I worked out was God Save the Queen) - but it opened the door.

Still naff all to do with the jolly old Eng. trad., of course.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: TheSnail
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 07:40 PM

Insane Beard

it's a dynamic classical flute developed for chromaticism and virtuosity reaching its apotheosis as a solo orchestral instrument of the high Baroque.

Bit like the violin then.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,caitlín
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 11:35 PM

> the recorder is in no way, shape or form a folk instrument - it's a dynamic classical flute developed for chromaticism and virtuosity reaching its apotheosis as a solo orchestral instrument of the high Baroque.

People in England (and everywhere else) were playing and dancing to recorders, informally and recreationally, for centuries. Look at the iconography for a start. This instrument goes back to long before they had such concepts as "classical".

> virtuosity

just means you're flash at playing your instrument, not that it has to be a concert stage performance. It can just as easily be done in the tavern yard.

> chromaticism

Because you can cross-finger it and get sharps & flats, it can't be a folk instrument?   

> Requiring a relatively simple embouchure made the recorder ideal as a parlour novelty, but is that really folk music?

Because it's easier to blow notes out of, it can't be a folk instrument?

> because the recorder died out when it was superseded by the transverse flute, a fair case can be made against it ever being considered as anything else other than the early chromatic classical flute it undoubtedly is.

Because it was eventually displaced by the transverse flute, this somehow invalidates its prior existence? Recorders were in use for hundreds of years, for a variety of purposes, before they died out. How does the eventual ascendancy of the German flute nullify that past history?

> no matter what tunes they were playing out of their tutor books; folk music is, after all, more than dots in a tutor book.

Yes - and where do you suppose the books got those tunes from???   From the folks playing them, dancing to them, singing them - some on fipple flutes. If that's not folk music, what is?


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 04:21 AM

...and, along with the violin, the redorder/English flute is still one of the best chromatic instruments for mimicking the human voice, including folk singing, so using one for an intro to an English folk song can't be a bad thing to attempt (one of my own attempts, "The Water is Wide," is here); and neither can using one to accompany English dances. Further, due to the polymer technology that IB referred to, it's now one of the least expensive instruments.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Curious Scot
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 04:39 AM

The Water is Wide is Scottish


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 05:10 AM

Hi Curious Scot.
Exactly!
Hoist by his own petard, methinks.

This thread started in a fairly interesting way with a discussion on the history and origins of various instruments.
Apart from the Concertina family, which can be reliably traced to Charles Wheatstone. (I'm guessing here, but I'm sure he was well aware of the Chinese developments of Free Reed Instruments, and just adapted ancient technology to fit in with what could best be achieved in the early 19th Century)

As for the other instruments, the jury has to be out as to origins.
We could argue forever, to what end?

No, what this thread is really about, is WAVs theory of Monoculturalism.....(again)

With great trepidation I finally plucked up courage to visit WAVs MySpace page and sampled some of his recordings.
Just to say that it confirmed all my worst fears.

So, is this a first? A thread hi-jacked by its originator?
With a link to his own websites in every post, one has to come to the conclusion that this thread is the work of a delusional fantasist.
The rest of us got sucked in by its title.
Time to let it die now, please.
WAV. (No reply required, or indeed wanted)

Keep practicing. but, I'd leave it a few years before posting your recordings for the world to hear.
Also, you obviously didn't understand my reference to "being sent to Coventry"
Like others here. you've had your fun. I'm out of here.
(I'll read, but not post, and would advise all like minded people to do the same. The alternative.....well!)


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 05:37 AM

Bit like the violin then.

No, nothing like the violin, which did find its way into folk music, where it found itself a fine home as the fiddle; the recorder, alas, did not.

People in England (and everywhere else) were playing and dancing to recorders, informally and recreationally, for centuries. Look at the iconography for a start. This instrument goes back to long before they had such concepts as "classical".

I think the instrument we're looking at here is the whistle flute, not the recorder which is a different beast altogether. Also most of that iconography is biased towards art music, or else a fanciful depiction of an unlikely folkish Arcadia in which aesthetic considerations outweigh those of ethnomusicology.

just means you're flash at playing your instrument, not that it has to be a concert stage performance. It can just as easily be done in the tavern yard.

The virtuosity I was referring to was that demanded of by the composers of the Baroque - Marcello, Telemann, Vivaldi etc., who were writing increasingly demanding scores for the instrument. See Here & elsewhere. I'm not talking about competent folkish musicianship, rather a technical virtuosity only possible in the various traditions of professional art music. It was for this that the recorder was developed.

Because you can cross-finger it and get sharps & flats, it can't be a folk instrument?   

I'm not saying it can't be, just that it isn't and never was. Latter day exceptions exist of course, such as celebrated Northumbrian Piper Neil Smith who plays as charmingly & as dexterously on his recorder as he does on his pipes, and Terry Wincott of the Amazing Blondel who gives us a flavour of how the recorder might have sounded had it ever been adopted as a folk instrument. Other examples abound, including our very own Walkaboutsverse who wields his plastic tenor in a manner that is most un-virtuosic, but hardly traditional, however so idiosyncratic such an approach might be (and however so philosophically loaded on the part of said practitioner). Otherwise, as a true traditional instrument of true traditional folk music, the recorder is nowhere to be found.

Because it's easier to blow notes out of, it can't be a folk instrument?

The fipple is not the issue here, a feature it has with other flutes and whistles, which are folk instruments, but which aren't recorders. My argument was that because it was easy to blow (unlike a clarinet, oboe or transverse flute) it was the ideal thing for the aristocratic dilettantes, just as it proved the ideal thing for school children before they graduated to a proper woodwind instrument.

Because it was eventually displaced by the transverse flute, this somehow invalidates its prior existence? Recorders were in use for hundreds of years, for a variety of purposes, before they died out. How does the eventual ascendancy of the German flute nullify that past history?

Things do die; in the case of the recorder it was killed off by the transverse flute. If it did have an autonomous existence as a folk instrument, it would have lived on, as other instruments did, but the recorder did not. The recorder was an instrument of art music from the medieval (at a stretch), through the Renaissance to the Baroque. It's 20th century revival by Dolmetsch (et al) was also as an instrument of art music, specifically for the recreation of sophisticated early music, not folk.

Yes - and where do you suppose the books got those tunes from???   From the folks playing them, dancing to them, singing them - some on fipple flutes. If that's not folk music, what is?

Again - fipple flutes are not recorders (though recorders are, of course, fipple flutes - an important distinction). The music might have come from folk traditions, as was the fashion, no doubt because along with the notion of faux-rusticity, such tunes were a lot less demanding for the aristocratic amateur dilettante than, say, a Marcello Sonata. As I said these 18th century recorder tutors were aimed at bourgeois hobbyists - hardly the traditional folk musicians whose rustic repertoires were greedily plundered out of long standing fashionably for same. Whatever the source of the tunes, the social context of the tune books is about as non-folk as you could wish to get, as, indeed, is the recorder.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 05:45 AM

PS - See here for an example of an orchestral instrument existing autonomously in a true folk context. Now what's what I call folk music!


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: TheSnail
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 05:53 AM

developed for chromaticism and virtuosity reaching its apotheosis as a solo orchestral instrument of the high Baroque.

Nothing like the violin? Hmmmm.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 06:02 AM

Well, the violin didn't reach its apotheosis in the orchestra of the high Baroque anyway, neither did it ever die out; it thrives today in every corner of the world in most every conceivable genre of music with distinct repertoires to match - everything from classical Indian Ragas to Bluegrass to Jazz to... everything basically. So, nothing like the recorder at all.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Sailor Ron
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 06:14 AM

Without going into the 'ancient history' of English folk instruments, I would state that the traditional instument for English folk song is none. With very few exceptions, as far as I am aware,traditional singers sang unaccompanied. So England's National Musical-Instrument, as far as folk song goes is the voice! If 'folk song' is to accompanied does it matter then with what instrument? To my mind it does not;electric guitar, banjo,cello,concertina, church organ,Black Sea fiddle, aye and recorder are all as valid,or invalid depending on your personal view.My own view is, its not the instrument, but how it is used that matters.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: TheSnail
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 06:35 AM

NOTHING like the violin?

The violin wasn't developed for chromaticism and virtuosity? It's never been a solo orchestral instrument?

Don't take me too seriously, IB. I'm just amazed by the knots people tie themselves into and the tosh they talk in the totally unnecessary task of proving WAV wrong. He must be delighted at all the attention he receives.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 07:19 AM

Ron said:"My own view is, its not the instrument, but how it is used that matters"

Absolutely, Ron - agree with you 100%... mind you, I can think of a couple of excellent uses for the recorder!


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 07:53 AM

I'm just amazed by the knots people tie themselves into

It's you that's tying the knots here, TheSnail - thus obfuscating a point that was simple enough - i.e. that, whatever other points of commonality the two instruments may or may not have, the violin became a folk instrument whereas the recorder did not. What the recorder is now of course is a different issue altogether, other instruments likewise; as SailorRon says above, all as valid,or invalid depending on your personal view... its not the instrument, but how it is used that matters.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 09:30 AM

"We could argue forever, to what end?" (Ralphie)...awareness...a very well known and respected English folkie, Martin Carthy, dared to say, on the BBC, "English don't know who they are any more."
"WAVs theory of Monoculturalism" (Ralphie)...ridiculous...I love our WORLD being multicultural.
Curious Scot - I've seen "The Water is Wide" given English origin in a few places, and, in Wiki., as you say, Scottish. Certainly, there is now a Scottish and an English version.

"Other examples abound, including our very own Walkaboutsverse who wields his plastic tenor in a manner that is most un-virtuosic, but hardly traditional," (IB)...whatever the quality, I play and then sing just the TUNE, which IS traditional...Baroque playing, however, certainly would involve much more ornamentation.
And, once more, at The Rothbury Traditional Music Festival, they have a competition for whistles AND recorders.
"Bit like the violin then." (IB perhaps in a rush)...I said in terms of their capabilities of mimicking the human voice.

Speaking of which, Sailor Ron, I agree with you in part - but you forgot all about the accompaniment of English folk dances.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 09:45 AM

Mea Maxima Culpa.
I know I shouldn't, but........
I Quote....WAV

"I play and sing, just the tune"

Don't make me laugh.

I have listened to your recordings.
You can't play to save your life.
You can't sing in any recognisible key known to man.
If your recordings are supposed to represent quintessential Englishness, I'm off to Australia.
WAV....JUST GO AWAY.
And learn some humility.

Spaw, when you read this. Please don't go to WAVs MySpace page.
I would worry for your health.

PS FYI WAV MWR lives in England, and is very welcome.
You live in England, and I don't think the same can be said for you.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 09:45 AM

"WAVs theory of Monoculturalism" (Ralphie)...ridiculous...I love our WORLD being multicultural.

You love the WORLD being multicultural, you just want our COUNTRY to be monocultural. Correct?


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 09:47 AM

'Speaking of which, Sailor Ron, I agree with you in part - but you forgot all about the accompaniment of English folk dances. ' as a response to:

'I would state that the traditional instument for English folk song is none. '

Analyse the sentence, notice the word 'song', playing a tune to accompany dance is a different matter altogether. Sometimes I doubt your academic credentials.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 09:59 AM

"Bit like the violin then." (IB perhaps in a rush)

That was actually TheSnail, WAV. Otherwise, I've said all I intend to say on these threads - life really is too short to be wasting time on an arrogant attention-seeking racist buffoon who has neither the humility to listen nor yet the nous to learn.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYlA4q1IcB0

Meanwhile, if anyone wants to discuss any of the matters above, please PM me - I won't be looking in here again.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Curious Scot
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 10:10 AM

Try reading your wiki again wav. - It says - It is doubtful that the ballad is English, although it is popularly considered so. The oldest lyrics which exist show the song to be of Scottish origin.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 11:13 AM

"And, once more, at The Rothbury Traditional Music Festival, they have a competition for whistles AND recorders."

They also include one for highland bagpipes, so I assume that is E. trad as well.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 12:25 PM

"'Speaking of which, Sailor Ron, I agree with you in part - but you forgot all about the accompaniment of English folk dances. ' as a response to:
'I would state that the traditional instument for English folk song is none. '
Analyse the sentence, notice the word 'song', playing a tune to accompany dance is a different matter altogether. Sometimes I doubt your academic credentials." (Joe)...what's the title of the thread we are on, Joe?

Volgadon - I do like the Scottish Highland Pipes but disagree with Rothbury, ENGLAND, on that one.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 12:31 PM

But you are saying that if they have an competition for a certain instrument, said instrument is part of the tradition. Merely following your own logic.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Sugwash
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 02:11 PM

Let's adopt the banjo as England's national instrument. That will give those of other countries a coherent focus for their dislike of the English. I post as a proud Englishman and unapologetic banjo player.

There is a distinct English style of banjo playing, Rob Murch is an admirable proponent of it.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 02:14 PM

Logically, Volgadon, the Rothbury Trad. Mus. Fest. board see both as trad. instruments - as do I...whether there should be a Scottish pipes comp within the borders of England is another matter.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 03:05 PM

Going back a bit to Insane Beard's comments about the recorder as a folk instrument. There is something in that position, but it suffers from the problem that it was mainly the bourgeoisie that documented what they were doing with them. Here are a few data points outwith the world of the English diarist.

- The recorder is listed in a chronicle of the reign of Mary Queen of Scots as one of the instruments played by a drunken rabble outside her window; she detested the whole lot of them (and in her customary Red Queen style, subsequently created a law imposing the death penalty for street festivities). Somehow I doubt they were playing Sermisy and Binchois.

- The Georgian salamuri is a type of recorder, and as far as we know it has always been used as both a folk and art music instrument.

- One of the oldest recorders extant is from a time and place which has no known art music: Rhodes under the Knighta of St John, around 1500. I noticed this thing a few years ago in a museum there (nobody before me had spotted the octaving thumbhole). It's rather crudely made from an animal bone, about the same proportions as my Susato G sopranino. (I told Anthony Rowland-Jones about it and he wrote a note in a recorder magazine; I left it to others to argue with the rather unhelpful museum about getting it properly measured and photographed). The Knights' sphere of influence extended from Portugal to Scotland to Egypt to the Caucasus, so this instrument could have come from anywhere in Europe, but it sure doesn't *look* like an art music instrument (no decoration at all, no sign of lathe work) and we know of no art music it could have played. What does that leave?

- Several different sizes of recorder are mentioned in the adverts at the back of one of the Gows' Scottish music collections of the early 19th century; you could buy them from the Gow & Shepherd shop. As far as I know, this is the last mention of it in print in Britain before the revival nearly 100 years later. You couldn't buy printed music for them at that point, so what would people have played on them? Not much option but music like that in the Gows' books, surely.

- The Scottish recorder manuscripts of the early 18th century seem not to be the work of the leisured elite, but of working musicians. They were *really serious* about getting these tunes right, John Dow in particular. These manuscripts are much like those the Village Music Project has documented. Not the sort of thing an illiterate ploughman could have produced, but quite likely made by a player he danced to. (Probably the recorder was a second instrument, though. Thomson seems to have been a trumpeter, and Dow focuses on very complex versions of song tunes for listening rather than dances, the dances would probably have been played on the fiddle).


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 04:50 PM

"Logically, Volgadon, the Rothbury Trad. Mus. Fest. board see both as trad. instruments - as do I...whether there should be a Scottish pipes comp within the borders of England is another matter."

Actually, logicaly, I think that they see them as SIMILAR instruments which can play the same sort of music, so why not.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Sugwash
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 05:50 PM

Oops, Rob Murch is an exponent of the English banjo style.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 02:25 AM

WAV
Just so that I understand.
Please define this wierd term for me.
I haven't come across it before.

E Trad.

(That should shut you up)


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 03:29 AM

From: GUEST,Joe
...Sometimes I doubt your academic credentials.


Glad to see I'm not the only one that doubts the veracity of WAVs qualifications. If he does have a BA he must have forgotten pretty much all that he learned.

From what I've seen most of the things he says about himself don't fully stand up to scrutiny...

e.g.
He goes on about English culture but he's culturally Australian

He pontificates about music but from his recordings & opinions he hardly qualifies for the title 'amateur'.

He goes on about his 'technical certificates' but they turn out to be of no significance unless you work in a factory.Using his standards I've got 12 "technical certificates". Does that make me an academic or highly qualified - no it does not.


...Presumably in time we'll find out that "BA" stands for "burger arrangement".


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,banksie
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 04:18 AM

Sugwash wrote: Let's adopt the banjo as England's national instrument.

Well, there is a history. There were several English companies making banjos in the 19th century - Windsor was just one popular make.

My mother used to play in a banjo band in the early 20th century, playing dance tunes such as Polkas and Jigs, so it wasn't `art' music. I still have some of the sheet music, published by John Alvey Turner (Turner's Banjo Budget series). Titles include The Fusilade Polka for two banjos(by Harry Nicholls) , and the Skipping Rope Dance (another Polka, by Herbert Ellis). And I still have her banjo, though I'm damned if I can play it as well as she did, even late in life. One more thing to practice, I guess :-)


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 04:30 AM

Thanks for those details, Jack.
Ralphie - "WAV
Just so that I understand.
Please define this wierd term for me.
I haven't come across it before.

E Trad.

(That should shut you up)"...not from answering:
E. for English; Trad. for traditional...used mainly to describe English traditional SONGS.

Woody - apart from the remnants of my Australian accent, I'm culturally English: my repertoire is English; I play the recorder/English flute; I keep fit with Lawn tennis; my staple is pottages; I've read widely from the canon of English verse; I grow hedera helix; and I think I know England's geography, history, etc., quite well. (Also, as said, I did Australianise during my 26 years there - but not that much: occasionally people there would note my English background, and they certainly would nowadays, if and when I make a VISIT to Aus.).
The formal courses I've mentioned (only when defending strong criticism of my character/abilities) are true; and a Bachelor of Arts Degree is meant to be relevant to lots of occupations (human resources, supervision, etc.), rather than just the arrangement of burgers.
Also, "no significance unless you work in a factory." (Woody)...one of the four is actually an Advanced Certificate in Manufacturing Technology (= a HNC, HR people here have told me), but some of its production-management modules were taken by people in other fields, such as from airlines.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 04:35 AM

But practicing what you think is English culture does not make you culturally English.

And I have a Silver Swimming Certificate, a lot of Olympians probably earned this prestigious award at some point in their career.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Joe P at work somewhere else
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 04:42 AM

Sorry that was me, it seems that despite my various qualifications and experience working with a wide range of IT packages, as well as my Key Skills qualification(!) I forgot to put my name.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 06:08 AM

From: WalkaboutsVerse
Woody - apart from the remnants of my Australian accent, I'm culturally English


Hee hee hee. All together now - "Oh no you're not!" You're a fake. Delusional.


Regarding the BA. A degree is supposed to develop you're skills in study, analysis and reasoned argument. I see no evidence that you've achieved anything there given that your postings tend toward the unreasoned, ignorant and simplistic.

Regarding the anthropology bit... well surely the bedrock of Anthropology is the attempt to understand humanity objectively (as far as is possible) without imposing your own subjective prejudices and preconceptions. You've come to England, but rather than using your "qualification" to help you understand the culture, you've come with a set of preconceived ideas and prejudices that bear no relation to the reality, and then you seek to impose them on others. If you did ever attend Anthropology classes you must have slept through them.


Back to the original subject. As another poster said, if we had an English national instrument, we'd know about it. If we don't know about it, it's hardly a national instrument.

There is however one instrument which can be found in most English musical genres over a period of hundreds of years, as at home in modern English Folk, Classical, Jazz, Pop, Rock as it was in 18th century dance music. It's called the fiddle, but it's not specifically English.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 09:20 AM

You've ALL got it wrong!

England's National Musical-Instrument:


TA DA!


from the 50/60s to today - Transistor radio, morphing to Walkman, then CD Walkman, now iPod and Blackberry...


:-P


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Stu
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 09:34 AM

BA = Bugger All


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: TheSnail
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 09:41 AM

On the banks of red roses my love and I sat down
And I took out my iPod to play my love a tune....

Hmmm. Not sure that the symbolism works.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 09:44 AM

"Hmmm. Not sure that the symbolism works."

Oh, yes, it will, just make sure you pack fresh batteries with the condoms...


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 10:19 AM

Are you calling me a woody Englishman, Woody?! And as for, yawn, "If you did ever attend Anthropology classes you must have slept through them." (W)...and somehow got mostly distinctions for my essays! It was actually IB (above) who found that Wiki has England's nat. inst. as the bell, and quite a few agreed on that (above). Also, curiousity killed/muddied the cat, but are you the Woody I've seen/heard on the NE folk scene once or twice?


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 10:52 AM

The shakey egg.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 02:47 PM

From: WalkaboutsVerse

and somehow got mostly distinctions for my essays!


You say that, but then you say a lot of things that are patently untrue. Judging by what and how you write, you're being economical with the truth.


It was actually IB (above) who found that Wiki has England's nat. inst. as the bell

Yep the streets round here are packed with kids playing their bells all day and all night. How could I have missed it?


are you the Woody I've seen/heard on the NE folk scene once or twice?

How should I know?


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Terry
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 04:05 PM

and somehow got mostly distinctions for my essays!

WAV, is there any chance you could upload these essays to somewhere on the 'net? (There are loads of hosting places)

Lots of us would really like to read them, I'm sure.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 10:17 PM

"the streets round here are packed with kids playing their bells all day and all night"

Didn't you have a typo or two there?

The streets round here are packed with kids playing (with) their balls all day and all night...

:-P


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 11:25 PM

"Lots of us would really like to read them"

GUEST Terry.
WAV doesn't do irony. He really doesn't get it.
QED. WAV is not English!


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 04:04 AM

I hope IB is still looking in. I really want to go for a drink with him sometime. So long as it's not feckin' mead. Mind you, mead is as scarce in the pubs round here as are bells in the streets, citterns in barber shops and 'pottage of the day.'

Newcastle sounds great. I'm going up soon for the first time. It sounds like a wonderfully vibrant city. I look forward to looking in on the folk degree and spending time with some great English singers and musicians who, like IB, have forgotten more than WAV will ever know about the English tradition.

Btw, wavey davey: Martin Carthy also said that the only harm you can do to a folk song is not to sing it. Given his participation in projects like the Imagined Village, I'd guess his vision of England, and of what is acceptable to do with English music, is a lot closer to IB's than to yours, and if I know the Carthys, no member of the family would want their words hijacked and misinterpreted to support the sort of xenophobia you espouse. Eliza has told you as much herself, and I don't think her dad would feel any differently.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,a still cookieless ruth
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 04:07 AM

guest above: me.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 04:48 AM

Message to the Snail.

"And I took out my IPod for to play my love a tune"

Brilliant!
(Should be added to the Bright but Dim Knight thread)


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 04:50 AM

Sorry.
That should read "The Nice but Dim Knight"

As for WAV waxing lyrical re Concertinas.
I play the McCann Duet. If I only played the tune, what exactly would my left hand be doing?

(McCann Duet.....look it up)


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Oldguit
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 04:55 AM

I don't know if this has been mentioned before, if so, apologies.

How about "spoons" I don't know if they are played anywhere else.

Oldguit Arr


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: TheSnail
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 05:01 AM

If I only played the tune, what exactly would my left hand be doing?

Playing with your iPod?


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Surreysinger
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 05:09 AM

"I play the McCann Duet. If I only played the tune, what exactly would my left hand be doing?"

Waving ? Making obscure* gestures ? Being musically redundant ??

*spelling mistake ??

"(McCann Duet.....look it up)"

Here you go!

And just in case WAV should come back on your spelling of the name,Ralphie, perhaps it should be pointed out by a nerd like me that for years the name was spelled the way you do, whereas in recent years the more recognised spelling adopted is the one in the article - which it is now known is the way the revered Professor Maccann spelled his name. A rose by any other name, and all that ... still a great instrument however you spell it. Not England's National musical instrument ... but I suppose actually an English instrument (unless Maccann proves to have been Polish, Scottish or Irish ????)


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 05:12 AM

Indeed. But then, looking back at WAV's list...

INSTRUMENTS OF (OR CLOSELY ASSOCIATED WITH) ENGLAND

Northumbrian Bagpipes (bellows blown), Leicestershire Bagpipes (mouth blown); English Concertina, Anglo Concertina, Duet Concertina (and important developments to ? if not inventions of ? other keyboards, such as piano and organ, have also occurred in England); Dital Harp/Harp-Lute, English Cittern; English Flageolet, Penny Whistle, Recorder/English Flute


...they're all chordal instruments apart from the whistles. Apparently 'English traditional' means what he says it does, except when it doesn't.

But we already know it's impossible to argue with this guy. A reminder for anyone still tempted...

WAV: [the recorder]'s certainly been played in this land for a long time; and, at the Rothbury TRADITIONAL Music Festival, there is a competition for whistles AND recorders.

Volgadon: I see that the Rothbury TRADITIONAL Music Festival also has a competition for highland bagpipes

WAV: Volgadon - I do like the Scottish Highland Pipes but disagree with Rothbury, ENGLAND, on that one.

It's all evidence for WAV's argument - unless the evidence doesn't support him, in which case he's right and the evidence is wrong.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: DaveM
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 05:14 AM

I nominate the Hohner Pokerwork as Englands national instrument.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Mr Beard's Inane Apprentice
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 06:06 AM

I hope IB is still looking in. I really want to go for a drink with him sometime.

Hi Ruth - I've been instructed to keep an eye on pertinent developments as and when they occur & am assured that a drink would be well in order. IB and the missus are often over in Newcastle, generally on the first Saturday, thus coinciding family visits with a trip to Joe Crane's Come-All-Ye at The Cumberland Arms in Byker - one of the finest sings in the North East, in one of the last remaining traditional pubs wherein singers young and old gladly celebrate in the traditional manner, accompanied, unaccompanied, or otherwise. And we're assured it's a WAV free zone on account of that particular personage preferring to listen to folk radio (whatever the hell that might be) than actually partake of a living, breathing singaround - so no fears there Dave (Bridge). Good beer, no mead, and the only sign of daft Davey is his pathetic promotional poster on the noticeboard bearing his Jack-boot stamp on the face of human freedom directing you to his FREE WEBSITE which openly promotes racial hatred and intolerance with such slogans as:

English culture is taking a hammering and, when people lose their own culture, society suffers.

And talking openly promoting racial hatred and intolerance (or is it just a case of puerile attention seeking at this stage? Either way it garners no sympathy in this camp), we have the following little piece of total(itarian) crap:

whether there should be a Scottish pipes comp within the borders of England is another matter.

Ominous stuff! No doubt WAV has plans to sort out that little aberration once his Glorious World Reich Dictatorship is in order (sorry, a stronger UN with greater powers of regulation) and all nations are ethnically & culturally cleansed of such noxious pollutants.

And for those caught up in the recorder hullabaloo a while back, our thanks to Jack Campin for his fascinating information, none of which, of course, supports WAVs insane idea of the recorder as a Traditional English Folk Flute. But as Pip points out a little way above unless the evidence doesn't support him, in which case he's right and the evidence is wrong.

To close, here's a picture taken by IB whilst out and about in Liverpool yesterday. These are young traditional English folk dancing their traditional English folk dance. Well, as traditional as Morris anyway, certainly as far as these guys are concerned.   

Liverpool Dancers, 24th September 2008


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 06:24 AM

"I play the McCann Duet. If I only played the tune, what exactly would my left hand be doing?"

I dread to think...


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 07:00 AM

You're still calling me a woody Englishman, Woody, and, as for my essays, I've kept those papers in a folder, Terry, but, frankly, have other things to do before thinking about typing them onto the web; e.g, I'm still working out the tunes, using my tenor English-flute and keys, to my 17 "Chants from Walkabouts"; incidentally, for a while I was asking folks about "Finale" software to help with this but, although slow compared with some of the folkies I've met, I'm okay now - via mimicking my singing.
Then Ralphie went further than Woody - "WAV is not English!", even after my response to this matter, above.
Oldguit - for what it's worth, I think I'll add "spoons" to the list on my site, which has already changed slightly, due to this this discussion, from what Pip took the liberty of posting here at - Date: 25 Sep 08 - 05:12 AM. And to Pip - you forgot that folk is not the only English genre (how about our hymns and composer music) and/or didn't READ the titles properly, which don't have the word "traditional" in them; indeed, on the up-to-date list, you'll find the stylophone...
But not the Hohner Pokerwork, DaveM - the melodeon being of Viennese origin; although, like the Italian fiddle/violin, played a lot in England nowadays.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 07:45 AM

Hello Surrey(pedant)Singer.

I reserve my right (as an Englishman) to alter peoples names as often as I like, so there!
It's called the "Folk Tradition"

Back to your practising, wench.

To all others, what I do with my left hand is my own affair.
At least it's done behind closed doors with the curtains shut and the lights off.

What WAV does with his left hand, doesn't bear thinking about.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 08:08 AM

"What WAV does with his left hand, doesn't bear thinking about."

He calls it 'English Folk Traditional Music'...


"But not the Hohner Pokerwork, DaveM - the melodeon being of Viennese origin; although, like the Italian fiddle/violin, played a lot in England nowadays."

Ah So! WAV, being of English Origin, could never be called an "Aussie" while he was here, so he was forced to go back home...

In joyful strains then let us sing, "Advance Australia fair!"


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 08:09 AM

300!


:-P


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 08:15 AM

Look here Mr Troupe.

Our Australian friends had to suffer WAV for many years.
As he was born in the UK, we have to take our turn.
Lets call it, "Care in the Uncomformity."
It's a heavy burden I know, but, who are we to reject the rejected.

Let he who is without discernable talent, write the first poem.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 08:20 AM

"Let he who is without discernable talent, write the first poem."

I thought that was what... oh, sorry....


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 08:27 AM

I nominate the Pink Oboe.
an instrument that would suit our revered believer in solo melody,It requires a lot of wind,much jaw,and can play top line melody,and is an excellent instrument for those that wish to play solo[without chords].


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 08:38 AM

Ah Ha! Now we finally know just WHO is Pink Oboe


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 08:39 AM

Captain.
I doubt that our American friends would recognise the Peter Cook reference.
Far less our friend WAV, who was inexplicably out of the country at the time!


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 08:45 AM

Not Peter Cook - but Spike Milligan...

For this episode, Sellars was ill, and they needed 4 other actors to do his voices...


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Raphie
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 09:04 AM

Sorry to correct you Mr Troupe.

Twas Peter Cooke in his spoof summing up of the Jeremy Thorpe trial.
"That self confessed player of the Pink Oboe"
Followed by the marvellous line...
"Members of the Jury, you will now retire, (as I should have done some years ago) and carefully consider your verdict of.......Not Guilty.

It's alright though. Old Age comes to us all eventually!!

Salut! Ralphie


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 09:10 AM

You're both right - 'troupe was referring to an episode of THEGS, as the clicky will reveal.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: TheSnail
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 09:10 AM

Peter Cook


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 09:24 AM

Mr Snail

Thank You for the link. Haven't seen it in years.
Made my day. Required viewing methinks.
And I almost got the quotes right!
Does anyone think that WAV will get it?
Probably not. Ho Hum.
Answers on a postcard....


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 09:50 AM

The Spy or Who is Pink Oboe
Series 9, Episode 11
First broadcast on January 12, 1959.
Script by Spike Milligan.

Peter Cook Pinched it...


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: TheSnail
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 09:55 AM

Foolestroupe

Peter Cook Pinched it...

An English joke passed down in the oral tradition.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 10:14 AM

HE SAID THE "T" WORD!


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 10:53 AM

How about "spoons" I don't know if they are played anywhere else.

Russia.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Surreysinger
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 11:03 AM

Captain, far be it from me to descend to the depths which this conversation (diatribe?) now seems to have gloriously plumbed(particularly since it seems to have dragged me away from the practice that I have been condemned to in my role, apparently, as a wench ... what ???) ... what guarantee would there be that the instrument you have offered up for consideration (hmmm..I know I'm going to regret injudicious use of the English language there ... but hey!!) is generically English ?????

And Ralphie ... varlet (??) I was never suggesting that you were using an incorrect spelling of the name (though it apparently is) ... merely that when you took the instrument in question up within the mists of unrecorded time, when dragons flew the earth, and an Englishman's home was his castle, that was the way it was spelled, whereas pedants other than myself have now determined that EVERYBODY had it wrong for years. How it's spelled makes no difference to its position in the rankings of instruments of supreme quality and/or Englishness..... OK, I know, back to my practising ......


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 11:10 AM

Wench. (SS)

Why muse upon spellings?

What does it gain you?

Back to your practising.
Otherwise, You'll end up like WAV. And you wouldn't want that, would you?


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Surreysinger
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 11:45 AM

Hmmmmm......... could there be any doubt about that last ???

Musing upon spellings can sometimes be an interesting pastime .. but probably not as interesting as practising. After all, I've got to get to grips with playing the thing with two hands, haven't I?? (No rude comments, please - in my case I'm probably waving and not quite drowning - sorry to Sylvia Plath for the misquote)

What does musing upon spelling gain me ??
An occasional argument or interesting debate on the vagaries of the English language, maybe.

All of which, of course, is vastly off topic...


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 11:54 AM

"All of which, of course, is vastly off topic..."

With WAVs threads, no one is quite sure, IMHO, just what IS off topic, or on, for that matter either...


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Surreysinger
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 11:59 AM

I bow my head in humble acknowledgement of the truth in that statement .. after all, I am but a wench, and know my place ... hah!!!


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 02:07 PM

On keyboards (and the English flute, of course), WAV plays just the tune/top-line melody WITH BOTH HANDS.
Ralphie - you were almost the first one to say: "Welcome home WAV!", or suchlike.
Surreysinger - "Englishness" (you, above) or "Anglicises" (me, below)...

Poem 228 of 230: REPATRIATING

I only sunbathe in winter -
    Behind closed glass;
I may need extra quilts at night -
    Warm or sleepless;
But most of my other ways spell -
    Anglicises.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Surreysinger
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 02:49 PM

To which the only response is "Eh??". Sorry WAV - your meaning, and the allusion to my reference to the country of origin of the Duet concertina, are lost on me. The nice thing about the English language when used properly is that one can at least understand it ... even poetry like that of Gerard Manley Hopkins with its sprung metre and inversion of words ,which I found rather hard going when studying it at university the first time round, but now rather relish. Regrettably that little bit of doggerel above loses any sense or accurate meaning with your incorrect use of the last word ... now had you used the word "anglicising" or "anglicisation" you might have been in with a very very slim chance (exceedingly slim). But sadly I think William McGonagall (if that's the way it's spelled) would probably win hands down in a contest on the grounds of being intelligible.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 03:03 PM

...I forgot the ? and you put two.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 03:10 PM

Re WAVs Repatriating.

"I only sunbathe in winter"
Whatever floats your boat.
"Behind close glass"
Probably a good idea.
"I may need extra quilts at night"
"Warm or sleepless"
Is that the quilts or yourself that is warm or sleepless?
"But most of my other ways spell....Anglicises"
Tried to make sense but now,I feel that I've lost the will to live.
Anglicisies? What planet are you on?


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 05:52 PM

: waving and not quite drowning - sorry to Sylvia Plath for the misquote)

You mean Stevie Smith.

> the English flute

How common.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 06:14 PM

Nobody heard him, the dead man,
But still he lay moaning:
I was much further out than you thought
And not waving but drowning.

Poor chap, he always loved larking
And now he's dead
It must have been too cold for him his heart gave way,
They said.

Oh, no no no, it was too cold always
(Still the dead one lay moaning)
I was much too far out all my life
And not waving but drowning.

Here's a link to Stevie Smith reading it in 1965.

Now, WAV that's poetry.

Incidently, Vic Chesnutt put this to music rather nicely. He's American, so no oubt he should have chosen a poem from his own good culture. I'm rather glad he didn't...


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Surreysinger
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 06:47 PM

Yes that certainly is poetry, and exceedingly memorable poetry ... the image in those last two lines has stuck in my brain since I first read them many years ago ... even if I did muddle myself up ... why did I think it was Sylvia Plath ? Sorry to Stevie Smith now ! I'm not sure, though, that I'd actually want to hear that to music .. it doesn't strike me as a poem that actually _needs_ any addition, being fairly stark in outline and content.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 07:24 PM

I thought you meant the Aussie Group Not Drowning, Waving ...


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 07:39 PM

You're absolutely right, of course, SS. I wouldn't have chosen to hear it set to music... when I accidently did, I was hugely gratified that Vic, bless him, had done a rather good job.

Couldn't find him on t'internet doing this song, but here he is doing 'Strange Language' .. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ps8-dXpJFoE


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 02:28 AM

Here is more evidence in support of the banjo being one of Engalnd's national instruments, or at least one closely associated with it.
From Kipling's Cholera Camp.

Our Chaplain's got a banjo, an' a skinny mule 'e rides,
An' the stuff 'e says an' sings us, Lord, it makes us split our sides!
With 'is black coat-tails a-bobbin' to Ta-ra-ra Boom-der-ay!
'E's the proper kind o' padre for ten deaths a day.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 05:54 AM

Ralphie - "Anglicises" not your "Anglicisies"...did you check a dictionary before asking "which planet are you on?"...you may have found a kind of concertina there also.
And I wonder what would happen if Pip put his "feet" into the poem posted by SP..?


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 06:06 AM

And from rather before that, the description of Harris playing the banjo in Jerome K. Jerome's "Three Men in a Boat".


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Surreysinger
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 06:54 AM

>>Ralphie - "Anglicises" not your "Anglicisies"...

Oh dear WAV .... I think all of us had probably realised that Ralphie had had a difficulty with his digital interface there .. more haste less speed when one finger typing ?


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 06:58 AM

The difference is that 'Not waving but drowning' has a strong and immediately recognisable rhythmic pattern - and it doesn't claim to be in a regular metre.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 08:48 AM

No problem with reading and or writing, SS.
More a problem with lack of intelligence as far as WAV is concerned.
(Omigod, He's a Christian as well.....Be very afraid.. 7th day adventist maybe?)


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 09:09 AM

One Finger Typing?
Is that the same as One Finger playing?
Admit it WAV.
You have no talent, either as a musician, or a poet.
As an embodiment of all things quintessentially English.
You have failed.
Godbye.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 12:31 PM

Pardon the poetry, Ralphie, but, C. of E., actually - although I don't accept the Anglican, Roman Catholic, nor any other such imperialistic movement...

Poem 219 of 230: FURTHER ANTI-IMPERIALISM

Let each Christian nation have its own Church -
Equal, before God, with the others' Search.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Back to the thread, do like the sound of the organ, too.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 12:38 PM

I don't think you go to church over matters of the soul as much as because you think it's a national institution.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 12:44 PM

I also think that you refuse to include the guitar and banjo on your list because you hold very strong prejudices against the USA, even though you've allowed other German instruments on there, just not guitar.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 01:05 PM

I dunno. England has a long tradition of elevating simple failures to the status of Heroic Failures.

Perhaps we should just consider WAV as the Eddie the Eagle of poetry, the Captain Bligh of song, or the Scott of the Antarctic of political argument.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,We Subvert Koalas
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 01:55 PM

Let each Christian nation have its own Church -
Equal, before God, with the others' Search.


Holy Deja Vu! The last time you quoted this drivel (see here - 9th Feruary 2008, 7.48am) I asked you: What about the non-Christian nations? And the non-Christian minorities living in the otherwise secular UK if it comes to that!

To which, in your wisdom, you answered:

Most people, We Subvert Koalas, in the world now, including me, are happy that the WORLD is multicultural...but whether each country should be multicultural is another matter. Sadly, events of the last decade have dramatically shown that trying to have a multiple number of cultures/faiths living under the one state law will always be problomatic

So, WAV - Given the nature of Jesuist teaching, how can you be both a Christian and an unrepentant believer in (and promoter of) such overtly racist bullshit?


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 02:10 PM

Volgadon - the guitar is Spanish; the banjo African/American.
That's the questioning of immigration/emigration, WSK (and why?), NOT racism, thus your remark is false and defamatory.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 02:17 PM

And your beloved cittern is German. Neither does your recorder originate in England.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,We Subvert Koalas
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 02:26 PM

No, WAV - that's racism, no matter much you wrap it up in your banal euphemisms, the fact is you question immigration on grounds of culture (another banal euphemism; for which read ethnicity) and identify culture in terms of a racially exclusive bunch of risible clichés. Call it what you want, WAV - you are a racist, as is obvious to anyone who reads though these threads.

I ask you again, in respect of your poem:

1) What about the non-Christian nations? And the non-Christian minorities living in the otherwise secular UK if it comes to that!

2) Given the nature of Jesuist teaching, how can you be both a Christian and an unrepentant believer in (and promoter of) such overtly racist bullshit?


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 05:23 PM

No, WAV, it's the questioning of having multiple cultures in a single country, on the grounds that a homogeneous culture is a really important value - more important than individual freedom of movement, for one thing.

When I say someone has racist views, I don't mean that they aggressively dislike people of other cultures or that they wish other countries would abandon their cultural traditions. I mean that they believe that a person's cultural background is a really important fact about that person, and that people from different cultural backgrounds should be kept apart. In short, believing that countries ought to be monocultural (as you clearly do, although you're too mealy-mouthed to say so outright) is racist. So this "how dare you call me a racist?" act isn't ever going to persuade me - or, I think, most other people here.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,We Subvert Koalas
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 06:08 AM

That WAV does aggressively dislike people of other other cultures and ethnicities is evident in every word he writes, right down to his euphemistic I love the WORLD being multi-cultural, for which read: I hate England being multi-racial and we should send them back to where they came from.

Remember, according to WAV, England was a more English place 50 years ago and, as a result English culture is taking a hammering and, when people lose their own culture, society suffers.

It doesn't get any more racist than that.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 09:24 AM

No - racism is where someone says, e.g., "they are ALL like that" or "I don't mind immigrants from there but not that part of the world", which I have never done. And I've heard people say they don't want to travel to some country as they don't like the people - again, that is certainly NOT well-travelled me. And why "Subvert Koalas"?...because they take eucalyptus?!


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 09:58 AM

No - racism is where someone says, e.g., "they are ALL like that"

You've said this many times before, and it's still not true. To put it another way, your definition of racism is a lot narrower than the one that's currently in use (here in England).

If you don't want people to call you a racist, you need to avoid doing and saying things which those people believe are racist, not just things that you personally believe are racist.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 10:31 AM

Incidentally, your opening shot in this thread

It's not difficult to find, e.g., the national instrument of, e.g., Wales or Scotland - triple-harp and highland-pipes, respectively

is a statement of quite staggering ignorance. (There's no continuous tradition of triple-harp making or playing in Wales - and there's a lot more to Scotland than the Highlands.) You know next to nothing, WAV, and yet you insist on not learning.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 11:33 AM

National instrument of Wales?
Clwth perhaps?
National Instrument of Whales?
Plankton?

And WAV. just to correct your post (fictional)

"I don't mind immigrants from there, but, not part of the world"
Agreed you didn't say that, it doesn't even make sense.

But

You would probably say

"I don't mind immigrants from there, but, not part of MY world"
Yes?


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 03:00 PM

Immigration/emigration the world over is, of course, regulated - I'm saying it should be more strongly regulated.

"Incidentally, your opening shot in this thread" (Pip)

"It's not difficult to find, e.g., the national instrument of, e.g., Wales or Scotland - triple-harp and highland-pipes, respectively" (me)

"is a statement of quite staggering ignorance. (There's no continuous tradition of triple-harp making or playing in Wales - and there's a lot more to Scotland than the Highlands.) You know next to nothing, WAV, and yet you insist on not learning." (Pip)...perhaps some Scots and Welsh may post as to who is showing "staggering ingnorance" (Pip) here...


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,We Subvert Koalas
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 03:28 PM

No - racism is where someone says, e.g., "they are ALL like that" or "I don't mind immigrants from there but not that part of the world", which I have never done.

No, WAV - of course you haven't, because you're very careful to wrap everything up in banal rhetorical euphemisms which are your stock-in-trade, and of which the above is a classic example. This has been shown, time and time again, to be, in effect, a convenient semantic loophole through which you try to squirm like the vile worm you are. However, squirm as you might, your narrow cultural remit for the English is one that constantly laments that we are not, indeed, ALL like that you would wish us to be.

If you apply such noxious risible stereotyping to your own culture, how on earth must you view others?


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 04:11 PM

According to illustrations and literature, the crwth appears to have been played widely across Europe, not just Wales. It's mentioned in Chaucer and players were designated by the surname Crowther in England and MacWhirter in Scotland. The crwth was probably most common in Finland and the Swedish-speaking coastal bit of Estonia where there is a substantial body of surviving music for the instrument. The "modern" Welsh crwth (which isn't really much like the traditional ancient lyre-like one) dates only to the late C16 or early C17 and was pretty much wiped out by two factors: the rise of rampant Welsh protestantism and the growth in popularity of that Italian import, the violin, by the end of C18. Revival crwths are built mainly by West country English luthiers. Ah, cultural diversity . . .


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 04:55 PM

"Squirm" (We Subvert Koalas)...I've asked twice now for you to explain your name - no answer being the stern reply. Drop the two of us somewhere in Africa or Asia and you'd probably find that I'd get on as well or better with the locals, frankly - it's the act of immigration/emigration itself that I keep questioning.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 05:41 PM

Wav, you might like to know that highland bagpipes only became a symbol of Scotland during the few years before Queen Vic's reign, when the fad was for all things Highland, an overly romantic pereception of the Scotland that never was, a Scotland full of kilted wildmen (wearing their clan tartan, naturally) with big claymores and bagpipes.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 03:59 AM

Oh well, were we to bring the even more ubiquitous origins of pipes into it we'd be here all day. They're no more exclusively "Scottish" than tins of shortbread. Again, they're mentioned by Chaucer and were widespread throughout Europe, North Africa, the Gulf and the Caucasus region. British colonialism took them to the furthest reaches of the former empire. Highland pipes (and tartan) became popular, and romanticised, in the Victorian era as a reaction to the ban on them and the Gaelic language imposed after Culloden being lifted.

Volgadon's post above reminds me of Brian McNeill's No gods and precious few heroes:

"Are you sitting in your council house dreaming of your clan?
Waiting for the Jacobites to come and free the land?
Try going down the broo with your claymore in your hand
And count all the princes in the queue."


Every time WAV opens his mouth his foot becomes further embedded. Enough. Go away and learn something before even thinking about coming back.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 04:34 AM

Minor note, bagpipes being banned is a myth.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 04:45 AM

Minor? Well maybe if you have enough add-on accidentals. Otherwise pipe intonation is "approximate", to say the least.
I'm sure I've said this before, but all my knowledge of Scottish history comes from the John Prebble trilogy, which I read at the behest of June Tabor. Any inaccuracies are therefore her fault!.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,We Subvert Koalas
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 05:01 AM

Yet another banal racist euphemism, WAV.

For: Drop the two of us somewhere in Africa or Asia and you'd probably find that I'd get on as well or better with the locals, frankly - it's the act of immigration/emigration itself that I keep questioning

Read: Whilst as an eco-tourist I have happily patronised the natives of Africa and Asia I am frankly appalled that African and Asian immigrants live in England, bringing their culture and spirituality with them. As I have said in verse, English culture is TAKING A HAMMERING, and when people lose their culture, society suffers.

As for the name, go figure, as they say, and as others indeed have. And when you've worked it out, answer the questions I've asked of you, specifically this: Given the nature of Jesuist teaching, how can you be both a Christian and an unrepentant believer in (and promoter of) such overtly racist bullshit?

The bottom line here, WAV, is that if you weren't a racist, none of this would be an issue at all. With a pure heart you'd be out there getting on with your life. As Woody said on the 5000 Morris Dancers thread Maybe you should get off your arse - stop moaning, watching TV & posting bollocks on Mudcat - and go out and learn something about the country you live in.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 06:16 AM

Gaelic was never banned either, and certainly suffered no suppression of any kind as a result of Culloden - it *was* later discouraged by the education system, but that didn't become an issue until after 1872.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 12:42 PM

it's the act of immigration/emigration itself that I keep questioning,quote Walkabout Verse.
so wav ,you would prevent me from moving to Ireland.
well WAV,presumably you should not have been allowed to emigrate to Australia,and to emigrate back
Immigration to England is controlled,so what is it you want?if we were to say that all people who have emigrated should not be allowed back then that excludes you.
why should you be given preference?,since you deserted your motherland.,are you now drawing unemployment benefit and draining the motherlands resources?,you were many years absent from England[presumably not paying taxes],but paying tax in australia,or were you claiming unemployment benefit in Australia.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 01:48 PM

On the contrary, Diane, you need to get clear in your mind about pipes and one of the variety of them, Highland pipes, before posting.
I was 3, CB, and I've stressed FROM NOW ON. And, in case you don't catch much news or programmes like the "Andrew Marr Show" this morning, more-and-more mainstream politicians (after all the pro-immigrationism of the Blair years) ARE openly questioning immigration and the multicultural state. Also, because I am actively trying to get back into manufacturing work and have little in the bank, yes I am receiving Job Seekers Allowance; everything I've done on the folk and poetry scene, thus far, is as an amateur.
To We Subvert Koalas (and we still don't know why) via Woody: I've learned quite a lot about my country both at home and while out-and-about - see the many such poems here.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 03:09 PM

more-and-more mainstream politicians (after all the pro-immigrationism of the Blair years) ARE openly questioning immigration and the multicultural state

I don't think you've thought this through. If I believe your views are racist (as I do), would they cease to be racist, or cease to be worth combatting, when adopted by mainstream politicians? On the contrary - they'd remain racist and combatting them would become even more important. (But not on-topic for Mudcat, at least not above the line.)

Diane, you need to get clear in your mind about pipes and one of the variety of them, Highland pipes, before posting

WAV, Diane was trying to help you. You really seem determined not to learn anything you don't already know.

Enough: I'm dropping this thread from Tracer and not coming back. I'm not going to waste any more time with you, and I advise other Catters to do likewise.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 03:38 PM

There is a lovely little Bagpipe museum in Morpeth somewhere between Alnwick and Newcastle. Where I learned of the varieties of pipes than I wanted to know and subsequently forgot more than I learned. (Don't ask me how... it is a gift).
So which came first the Northumbrian Small Pipes or the Highland pipes. If it was the North Umbrian pipes shouldn't pipes be considered more an instrument of England than of Scotland? Or do the border disputes complicate this?


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 04:28 PM

Ah yes, Mr Radish, I meant to give up after invoking Cicero and/or St Augustine but came back with just a little extremely basic musical information in the hope of sending WAV off in quest for knowledge and enlightenment. Waste of time, obviously. Thought I'd point out the bleedin' obvious: that crwths are not exclusively Welsh any more than leeks and daffodils are and that the origins of pipes are as far from being exclusively Caledonian as oats and fried Mars bars are wholly tartan-clad.

The first time somebody wondered if they could get a tune out of a disembowelled goat sure as hell didn't happen in Inverness, It would have occurred many, many centuries (if not millennia) earlier in the Middle East, the Far East or North / sub-Saharan Africa where human development was infinitely more advanced than on these islands. I know WAV doesn't like this obvious logic, but . . . tough.

To revert to the original question, I cannot for the life of me see why England needs a "national" instrument. Smacks of particularly nasty chauvinism to me. I did nowever give an answer far too many column miles above that the only (chromatic) instrument wholly invented in England was the English concertina, an irrelevant fact in musical terms as it can and is (in common with many another) used to perform music from many another culture. This is what musicians do, WAV. It's one of the ways in which art, and international understanding, grows. But that is anathema to you, isn't it?


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 05:23 PM

: So which came first the Northumbrian Small Pipes or the Highland pipes.

There are many books about the history of bagpipes. Hugh Cheape's might be a good start.

Highland pipes are older, evolved from an English pipe sometime before 1500 and taking their final form (with the bass drone) around 1750. Northumbrian pipes were developed in the late 18th century, based on smallpipes from both sides of the Border. The uilleann pipes were developed in the same place at the same time by the same makers, elaborating on the pastoral pipe, which was also found both sides of the Border. Neither the smallpipe nor the pastoral pipe was descended from the Highland pipe. The bellows was a French idea, adapted to all three types of pipe though it didn't catch on in a big way for Highland types (when so applied the result is known as a Border pipe).

The oldest pipes whose existence we know of from Scotland (and England) weren't like any of these; they were a common pan-European type best known these days in the early music scene. See Pete Stewart's book "The Day it Dawes" for a description and a repertoire. They were the least national instrument you could imagine, varying litle from Portugal to Bulgaria.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,We Subvert Koalas
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 06:09 PM

Granma McAlatia in her younger days (third from right).


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: s&r
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 06:16 PM

I'm pleased to see they're not playing tennis

Stu


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Tootler
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 07:05 PM

What a right bunch of idiots you all are.

Whether WAV is serious or is just on a windup, he is succeeding in the latter big time and you all fall for it.

The ONLY way to deal with WAV's ridiculous and inane postings is to ignore them. If no one else posted to any thread started by him, they would die the natural death they deserve.

I am away on a week's holiday tomorrow and I have more than a sneaking suspicion that by the time I come back this thread will still be going and have over 500 postings by that time because you all can't resist trying to have the last word.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Dad Van Frisk
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 04:39 AM

Can we have another link to Granma McAlatia in her younger days please, WSK? It's a bit of a grey Monday here at work this morning and after a sunny lovely weekend falling in love with my girlfriend's aunt in Formby I could do with some cheering up.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,We Subvert Koalas
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 05:01 AM

Anything to oblige, DVF! In fact, we have just the thing...

Granma McAlatia, Formby Point, 1921


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Surreysinger
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 05:44 AM

"What a right bunch of idiots you all are."
Tootler ... had you only just realised this?? I'm still trying to work out what relevance photos of Granma McAlatia have to anything, but have decided that it's not worth the effort !!


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Dad Van Frisk
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 05:59 AM

Thanks for that, WSK! That's certainly brought the sun out - as without the office window then so in my pining heart!

Formby Point (he sighs!) - we used to have a caravan there until it was buried; current estimates of erosion are pretty severe, around 13 feet a year - you can see trees sticking out the sand, so quite a dynamic landscape. Before she left for Medjugorje, my girlfriend wrote this poem:


Bone-white hand clutching from
dry dune sand.

Kids, I said; Art, he said.
We pondered
which and in the age we
live where such
schemes are vague and on new
clothes we must
now gaze but - Sea, she said,

the woman
who told us of change and
caravans,
and other days, buried
days, happy
days, right here, beneath our
feet, which shift
now, awkward here, above,
for the thoughts
of what is lost, there, below.

(Formby Point, Sefton, July 2006)


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 06:18 AM

'romantic pereception of the Scotland that never was, a Scotland full of kilted wildmen (wearing their clan tartan, naturally) with big claymores and bagpipes.'

I think it sounds quite fun.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 06:21 AM

JC, DE, and TM - as with the recorder's origin, we'll never know where bags were first attached to pipes...but it's great, yes?, that we now have all these different varieties in different nations (as a map at the good WHOLESOME Morpeth museum, you mentioned TM, shows).


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Oldguit
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 07:28 AM

At risk of calming troubled waters, I thought I'd get back on topic.

When I were a lad back in Sarf London, I was always rooting for a fine pair of instruments that surely should be adopted as England's faves, if not most traditional, Namely:

The Pink Oboe (as previously mentioned) along with the Squeeze Box (as in, Mamma's got one, Pappa plays it all night long)

They were made for each other.

Oldguit Arr


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: TheSnail
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 07:38 AM

As I remember it, "Mamma's got a brand new bag." which suggests that she'd had her pipes refurbished allowing her to do her finger exercises on Pappa's chanter.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,We Subvert Koalas
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 07:57 AM

More about bagpipe history Here and bagpipe technique Here.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,We Subvert Koalas
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 08:13 AM

Oh, and DVF - anything to oblige! The WSF archives are replete which such wholesome beauties, and it's so nice to read some real poetry on these WAV-type threads. What's your girlfriend doing in Medjugorje? We take a keen interest in the BVM's astute messages therefrom, the latest being:

Dear children! May your life, anew, be a decision for peace. Be joyful carriers of peace and do not forget that you live in a time of grace, in which God gives you great graces through my presence. Do not close yourselves, little children, but make good use of this time and seek the gift of peace and love for your life so that you may become witnesses to others. I bless you with my motherly blessing. Thank you for having responded to my call.

(September 25, 2008)

Meanwhile - Rusty Bagpipe anyone?


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Dad Van Fisk
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 09:04 AM

Medjugorje! We were in Bosnia-Herzegovina on holiday in the summer of 2006, and, having lately read Randall Sullivan's The Miracle Detective, we were both keen to visit the village where my girlfriend experienced what can only be called a religious reawakening. A Bosnian Roman Catholic by birth, she'd lapsed as teenager when she'd moved to England (aged fourteen) with her aunt at the onset of the troubles. I met her some ten years later as a vague sort of eco-folky-pagan, but after her experience in Medjugorje, all that went out the window and within a month she astonished us all when she announced she was moving back out there. We do get the occasional postcard, assuring us of her continuing affections, but, as I hinted above, her departure has brought myself and her aunt (who is six years older than my girlfriend and six years younger than myself and bears more than a passing resemblance to the young Granma McAlatia...) onto the brink of an old fashioned sort of romance - bagpipes, rusty or otherwise, notwithstanding!

On that note, I play a set of very unrusty Goodacre Leicestershire Bagpipes in an amateur early music group where we play works by Walther von der Vogelweide once a month in each other's front rooms. I also play Moeck Renaissance alto and tenor recorders and a Moeck Baroque oboe, but only ever privately on account of my nervous constitution.   

Dad Van Fisk

PS - I remember there being a Northumbrian bagpipe museum in Newcastle-upon-Tyne, in a castle near the old Bridge Hotel where I used to go to the folk club in the seventies. I couldn't find it last time I visited, so do I gather correctly that it's moved to Morpeth?


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,We Subvert Koalas
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 09:27 AM

Oh, Granma McAlatia,
in your girlish tones of sepia,
Onychoheterotopia
is your only flaw.

But on account of my myopia
such irrelevant minutiae,
(likewise your macroprosopia)
Is why I gaze in awe!


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,We Subvert Koalas
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 10:17 AM

Regarding one of the above linked sites, we find this image HERE, described thus:

The very earliest depiction of an object that might be a bagpipe is a terra cotta figure currently residing in Berlin's "Staatliche Museum." (See photo below) This much-discussed object is generally considered to be the earliest depiction of any sort of bagpipe. It is Hellenistic, probably (it is said) from Alexandria, and dates, supposedly, to the first century BC. It is controversial, and enigmatic. Is that a bellows under the "piper's" right foot or is it a time-keeping device? Is that a mouth-blown pan-pipe he's holding in his left hand, while, perhaps, the bag is providing air to a drone lying in his lap? Or is there a connection between the bag and the "pan-pipe" affair, which might operate like a Chinese Sheng (sounding a given pipe when a fingerhole is closed)? Might there be a bellows under the cloak on the figure's right side? All of these possibilities have been raised and argued.

This is very odd scholarship indeed, as the instrument depicted beneath the arm is unambiguously a friction drum latterly known as a rommelpot, and not any sort of bagpipe at all. Thus the ancient terracotta is a simple depiction of a one man band of pan-pipe and rommelpot.

We feel it is our public duty to point this sort of thing out, not just in the clarification of such wanton academic buffoonery (of which such examples are legion) but also with a view to getting back on thread, as they say. However, in respect of DVF's romantic angst, we can't resist another picture of Granma McAlatia relaxing at Formby Point in 1921. What a gal!


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 12:57 PM

Yes, DVF, it's now at the Chantry in Morpeth; and, piping down, WSK, here's the newly amended list, as mentioned above...

INSTRUMENTS OF (OR CLOSELY ASSOCIATED WITH) ENGLAND
Northumbrian Bagpipes (bellows blown), Leicestershire Bagpipes (mouth blown); English Concertina, Anglo Concertina, Duet Concertina (and important developments to ? if not inventions of ? other key-boards, such as piano and organ, have also occurred in England); Dital Harp/Harp-Lute, English Cittern; English Flageolet, Penny Whistle, Recorder/English Flute, Pipe and Tabor (old Morris accompaniment, the Stylophone (a recent one), Brass, Bells (to some, England's national instrument), as well as Spoons (from here).


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,We Subvert Koalas
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 01:58 PM

Northumbrian Bagpipes (bellows blown) - Developed from German / French prototypes

Leicestershire Bagpipes (mouth blown) - Modern invention by Julian Goodacre based on ancient iconography.

English Concertina, Anglo Concertina, Duet Concertina - Victorian inventions based on ancient Chinese free reed technology

(and important developments to ? if not inventions of ? other key-boards, such as piano and organ, have also occurred in England) - likewise pop music, Indian & Chinese cuisine, etc. etc

Dital Harp/Harp-Lute - short-lived Victorian parlour novelty for short-lived Victorian parlour ladies.

English Cittern - Barbershop novelty, long since defunct as far as it ever existed at all; used as a name for modern mandola and bouzouki type instruments from 1960s onwards.

English Flageolet - European invention developed with respect to parlour / chamber musics. Most defuinately not precursor of penny whistle, no matter what it says on WIKI - a misconception owing to Generation calling their modern 6-hole whistle-flutes flageolets.

Penny Whistle - Internationally & historically ubiquitous 6-hole whistle-flute made with tin by Clarke in the mid 19th century & later developed by Dave Shaw in the late 20th. About as English as the penis.

Recorder/English Flute - see discussion above, Jack Campin et al.

Pipe and Tabor (old Morris accompaniment) - derived from medieval European traditions extant in French (Basque) traditions, Mexico etc. Also associated, iconographically, in England with dancing bears.

the Stylophone (a recent one) - commercial toy, circa 1960s, kitsch value, revived in early 21st century.

Brass - international instruments developed from ancient Egyptian, Greek, Roman, Oriental, Australasian & European instruments; also Medieval slide technology (surviving in trombone) replaced with piston & rotary valves invented in Europe early 1800s.

Bells (to some, England's national instrument) - But nevertheless found throughout the world with the most ancient examples being in the far east.

as well as Spoons - a variety of clapper percussion, likewise bones etc. - likewise internationally ubiquitous.

So - nothing here to support WAV's nationalist & monocultural ideals. On the contrary, all would indicate aeons of cross-cultural pollinations consequent on continuous historical immigrations & emigrations. Manifestations of a world in transience and long may it continue to be so! In fact, given the above, I'd be hard pushed to think of an instrument that wasn't OF (OR CLOSELY ASSOCIATED WITH) ENGLAND.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 05:25 PM

Jolly Good.
But, can someone please define the term "English" for me.
I'm abit confused.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 07:31 PM

Putting some back-spin on the cue-ball?

Just trying to be helpful. . . .

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Surreysinger
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 07:54 PM

OK ,Ralphie ... you wanted it, so here it is....
definitions of the word English

Should keep you occupied for a little while, methinks!! ENJOY ....


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 03:23 AM

Thanks Don.
We Brits know all about the cue ball definition.
So much so that we never refer to it.
It's so ingrained in our psyche, something that we are told about at a very early age.
A bit like potty training.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: TheSnail
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 03:30 AM

Here ya go, Ralphie - English.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 03:37 AM

The French refer to custard as crème anglaise. In fact, they call a lot of things they don't like English (c.f. Dick's thread on how to be offensive to the English in Ireland). When a guest at a relative's house as a child, I was told to make the custard during dinner preparations. It went down not at all well because I hadn't added sugar. Sugar? Why should I? I never put sugar in anything. If being English involves sweetening things, I am not English. However, I was never asked to help in the house again. Silver linings and fluffy things in the sky . . .


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 03:55 AM

This thread has become so surreal that I'm thinking of entering it for the Turner prize!
Come on WAV, Keep up!


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 03:58 AM

Thanks Snail.
But I play the Duet......THE KING of tinas!
Regards Ralphie


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 04:08 AM

It's not strictly true that I'd never add sugar to anything. Sometimes a curry needs a little, and that's the English national dish, innit?
NOT WAV's assertion that it's stotty cake and chips although Andy Turner wrote a very nice English tune called The Stotty Cake Polka.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 04:23 AM

I play yellowfin - the King of Tunas.

(It's better than my melodeon playing.)


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Dad Van Fisk
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 04:59 AM

It's raining today
and I'm just about to forget the train window girl
That wonderful day we met
She smiles through the smoke from my cigarette
It's raining today
But once there was summer and you
And dark little rooms
And sleep in late afternoons
Those moments descend on my windowpane

I've hung around here too long
Listenin' to the old landlady's hard-luck stories
You out of me me out of you
We go like lovers
To replace the empty space
Repeat our dreams to someone new

It's raining today
And I watch the cellophane streets
No hang-ups for me
'Cause hang-ups need company
The street corner girl's a cold trembling leaf
It's raining today
It's raining today


(Noel Engel, aka Scott Walker)


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 05:10 AM

Thanks for that Mr Fisk.
We'll just have to wait for Mr WAVs view as to whether it's real poetry or not!
My breath is bated, awaiting confirmationion from his WAV-ness.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Surreysinger
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 05:30 AM

Ralphie ... the KING of tinas .... should that be QUEEN... how can you call an instrument a tina and then ascribe it masculine gender?? Go for MONARCH .... ok... yeah...back to practice wench, I know!!!


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Surreysinger
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 05:31 AM

And that's 400, I reckon!!


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Surreysinger
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 05:32 AM

In my haste I forgot to say... LOL at Ruth's interjection ... not a musical instrument I ever aspired to I have to say ... but is it English???


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 06:10 AM

"To We Subvert Koalas (and we still don't know why) via Woody: I've learned quite a lot about my country both at home and while out-and-about - see the many such poems here."

SO HAVE I, Wav. Doesn't make me English!!!!!!!

"'romantic pereception of the Scotland that never was, a Scotland full of kilted wildmen (wearing their clan tartan, naturally) with big claymores and bagpipes.'

I think it sounds quite fun. "

Fun, yes, real, no.

"The oldest pipes whose existence we know of from Scotland (and England) weren't like any of these; they were a common pan-European type best known these days in the early music scene."

Which remain in use in parts of Poland and the Balkans.

"INSTRUMENTS OF (OR CLOSELY ASSOCIATED WITH) ENGLAND
Northumbrian Bagpipes (bellows blown), Leicestershire Bagpipes (mouth blown); English Concertina, Anglo Concertina, Duet Concertina (and important developments to ? if not inventions of ? other key-boards, such as piano and organ, have also occurred in England); Dital Harp/Harp-Lute, English Cittern; English Flageolet, Penny Whistle, Recorder/English Flute, Pipe and Tabor (old Morris accompaniment, the Stylophone (a recent one), Brass, Bells (to some, England's national instrument), as well as Spoons (from here)."

Still no guitar and banjo? Nasty prejudice rears it's ugly head.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Joseph P
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 06:55 AM

I think my Hohner Pokerwork sounds mighty nice accompanying morris dance (others may disagree!), cant say we use a pipe and tabor anymore. Shame? No. Melodeon & fiddle are much better.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 07:37 AM

"To We Subvert Koalas (and we still don't know why)"

The answer should be obvious. He is part of the cell that recruited Blinky Bill, possibly even his handler.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Dad Van Fisk
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 10:48 AM

Northumbrian Bagpipes (bellows blown), Leicestershire Bagpipes (mouth blown)

Obviously on Planet Walkaboutsverse these instruments are equal in terms of cultural and historical significance. But if he'd bothered to do any research he'd find out that, as WSK says, the latter is a modern invention by Julian Goodacre, and a bloody good bagpipe it is too - see here. Please note, WAV - the Leicestershire is available as both in mouth blown AND bellows blown designs. The one I play is bellows blown, and is ideal for mostly European early and folk music, and even singing, though not many bagpipers sing with their instruments, even those of bellows blown instruments. Every English county once had its own bagpipe - for the Lyra-Viol there was given a bagpipe tuning and melodies alluding to the Lancashire Bagpipes, which are also mentioned in connection with the Preston Guild pageantry of the early 18th century, and as late as 1722 mention is made of a very merry wedding in Preston where there played seven bagpipers!


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 12:47 PM

One that I thought may have been noted in its absence (or perhaps it was way back - B.A.) is the harmonica/mouth organ - I have two mini encyclopedias and both say Wheatstone invented it, as well as the concertina; however, all the websites I've checked say Germany.
...and, like a koala after a good dose of eucalyptus, I, frankly, have been a tad slow to fathom that WSK may be ex-Insane Beard/ex-etc.?..


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 01:18 PM

I used to know a bloke called Tina.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Surreysinger
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 01:44 PM

Now I'm intrigued ... what was his name derived from - or was he just confused?

Mind you, there are other examples I suppose ... Shirley Crabtree (otherwise known as Big Daddy in wrestling circles in the 60s and 70s), Marion Morrison (John Wayne... am I right in that one??) ... and the conductor of the choir I sang with for many years is named Hilary ......

Ok, Ruth ... I stand to be corrected ... strangely Ralphie hasn't made any observation on the matter at all... I await some verbal castigation in trepidation, whilst trying to practice the tina (with both hands) in a fearless manner!!!


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 02:58 PM

"I like the idea of the lute having evolved in different lands into different guitar-like instruments - the Portuguese guitar (nearly always used to accompany fado songs), the Mexican guitar (with 9 strings, I think), the balalaika of Russia, the English cittern, the mandolin of Italy, the bouzouki (which we saw in the Athens Olympics), etc...
And, as suggested above, I also like the idea of their being many a fiddle-like instrument in many different lands...but, then, I do love our world being multicultural."

Wav, the balalaika is derived from primitive stringed instruments of Central Asia, not from the lute. The bouzouki too.
Do your research.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Surreysinger
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 03:19 PM

"Wav, .....Do your research"
Therein lies our problem ?


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 04:30 PM

I don't think he was confused - he seemed quite certain that he wanted to wear frocks and sing country and western songs.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Surreysinger
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 05:13 PM

Aha ... I see!!! :-)


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Surreysinger
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 05:14 PM

Sounds a bit like Tina C ... it isn't,I suppose?


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 05:41 AM

...while we are on names, Ruth Archer, I have a bone to pick: given that you've tolk us it's a nickname, why not just put Ruth R., e.g., such that the real Ruth Archers, found in search engines etc., have no chance of being bothered by some of the Rubish you come up with?


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 05:43 AM

R for Rubbish, i.e.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 06:16 AM

WAV.
I think you need to lie down and have a little nap.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Joseph P
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 06:40 AM

Some of us don't google Ruth Archer in a stalker-esque manner, or do we? (da-de-da-de-da-de-daa- da-de-da-de-daaa-daaa....)

Rubbish with a capital R? Must be special, mind you when it comes to rubbish, what about the racist crap that you publish, and what about your constant blabbering on about what our good tradition is. You have NO IDEA what makes up the cultures that exist in the geographical area that is England, let alone what would make the 'situation' better.

For those of us (such as myself) who do take an active part in continuing an unbroken and evolving tradition, your views are nothing but damaging. Ruth, on the other hand, seems to be taking an active part in developing and promoting folk music in England.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 06:44 AM

It seems that the fictional Ruth Archer is rather more famous than our very own real one.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 07:13 AM

WAV
When you have achieved what Ruth has achieved, then, start casting stones.
Are you the festival director for next years Sidmouth Festival?.... No, You're not.
So, shut up, and get a job.

Your biggest problem is that she might book some "foreign acts"
God Forfend such a heinous scenario....
The very thought that Englands Premier Festival might play host to those "Dusky Heathens"

Even if they are Scandinavian!!


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Derby Ram
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 07:46 AM

I'm clearly a bit late with this thread - but surely The Concertina being the only English invented chromatic musical instrument - and I'm with Diane here - there is only one contender - and there are arguably more players now than there have ever been - it's popularity is definitely on the up. What more qualification are they looking for?

Nothing to debate as far as I'm concerned....:-)


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 07:57 AM

Agreed Mr Ram.
But....does any of this really matter?
Ralphie


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 08:07 AM

I play the English concertina because it suits me to do so. I enjoy making music with it. I admire the playing of those who are for more expert than me. I do NOT play it in order to enhance my feeling of national pride or express my patriotism.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 09:20 AM

I like it that WAV is concerned that the "real" Ruth Archer might have her good character besmirched by being confused with me...Oooooh Noooooo!!!! But it sounds like WAV isn't actually aware that Ruth is a fictional character, and it's just possible that he doesn't even have a peripheral awareness of God's Own Radio Drama.

And he calls himself English!


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 09:46 AM

And I dare say that radio drama is a far greater part of people's own good culture than morris dancing and tennis.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Will Fly
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 10:10 AM

Morris dancing AND tennis - at the same time? Sounds fab to me. Would they wear tennis kit or morris kit, do you think? A rapper outfit wouldn't even need rackets. Or should that be raquets?

Well...it's no dafter than anything else in this thread...


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 10:24 AM

Ooh yes, tennis-playing morris dancers. Lovely idea, are they holding stotties and mead in the other hand and is it by the shade of a willow tree?


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Will Fly
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 10:32 AM

Sounds good to me - and they'll be wearing clogs.

Sorry - must dash - off to video myself playing through the chords of "The Glory Of Love", with the sound turned off. Just demonstrating the notes and fingering silently, you understand.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Surreysinger
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 11:14 AM

"Ooh yes, tennis-playing morris dancers"
Would that be 5000 of them ... are we back on track for the topic again ... no nay never......


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Surreysinger
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 11:16 AM

"Just demonstrating the notes and fingering silently, you understand. "
Which instrument would that be on?? Concertina ? Recorder? Mongolian noseflute??


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 11:20 AM

Pink oboe?


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 11:42 AM

Sousaphone?


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 12:41 PM

To Ruth Archer and Joseph P!: let me put it another way - if one prefers to use a web nickname (and I've nothing against that) why use someone else's real name? One of the very few using a real name here is Don Firth, but I think that IS his...Don?
And the sousaphone is American, Volgadon.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 12:45 PM

The Melon Whistle?


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 01:10 PM

And the recorder is of Continental origin, the cittern is German, the tabor possibly comes from North Africa via Spain, and the violin/fiddle is Italian.
The sousaphone and the tuba were widely used in trad jazz, which was very popular for many decades in Britain, and which your parents probably grew up listening to. It's probably as English as morris dancing.
To repeat-

Recorder- Continental Europe.
Cittern- German.
Fiddle- Italian.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 01:24 PM

"To Ruth Archer and Joseph P!: let me put it another way - if one prefers to use a web nickname (and I've nothing against that) why use someone else's real name?"

Just the same as if someone chose the nickname Jim Bergerac or Victor Meldrew.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 01:41 PM

WAV, I'll repeat this slowly: Ruth Archer is a FICTIONAL CHARACTER. If there are real Ruth Archers in the world, no doubt they've had their characters blackened far more comprehensively by the Ambridge Dairymaid herself and her adulterous meanderings with the cowman.

Anyweey, Deeeeeeyvid, I still think you're a reeeeeeeycist. OOOOOOOH NOOOOOO!!!


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 02:38 PM

Correct, WAV.

The name on my birth certificate is Donald Richard Firth. My father's grandfather came from Scotland (actually, Orkney) and my mother's parents came from Sweden. I sign legal documents with my full name, but Don Firth is the name my friends and acquaintances know me by, the name I am known by as a singer, and the by-line I use for my writing.

I am willing to take the blame when and if I mess up, but when I do something dazzlingly brilliant, I want full credit. Therefore, I use my real name.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 02:39 PM

"Anyweey, Deeeeeeyvid, I still think you're a reeeeeeeycist. OOOOOOOH NOOOOOO!!!" (Ruth Archer)...is the one behind this nickname, and the poster of such rubbish, really the director of Sidmouth Festival, as Ralphie said here Date: 01 Oct 08 - 07:13 AM?
And Volgadon - I repeat, the sousaphone IS an American instrument, that I happen to like, for what it's worth.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 02:48 PM

And Wav - I repeat, the fiddle IS an Italian instrument, that I happen to like, for what it's worth.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 03:09 PM

And so said I, Volgadon - you even argue when we agree! If it's on the list here Date: 29 Sep 08 - 12:57 PM or here, I'll eat my English flute.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 03:15 PM

The Sousaphone is a "wearable" helicon or "Saxhorn" (a brass instrument very popular in central and eastern Europe) originally patented in Paris in 1845 by Adolph Sax. John Philip Sousa asked the C. G. Conn company to design a helicon or tuba that would be easier to hold and to march with.

So it's an American variation of a European instrument. To categorize the Sousaphone as an "American instrument" is rather like categorizing Lord Randal or Barbara Allen as "American ballads" because variants of them have been collected in the southern mountains in the United States. Both of these ballads came to the U. S. because they were carried here in the heads of immigrants from the British Isles, where they originated?as far as we know; variants of Lord Randal have been found all over continental Europe and the Scandinavian countries.

No, most things that exist today, both cultural and technological, are the result of evolution, which involves the mixing of cultures and the resultant cross-fertilization. Biologists have long since recognized the value of biological diversity and "hybrid vitality." Anthropologists also recognize a similar process in the meeting and blending of cultures. "Pure" strains, both biological and cultural, tend to weaken and fade away.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 03:39 PM

Noooo, Deeeyvid - I'm a character in an everyday story of countryfolk - as any good Englishman (and especially Northumbrian)well knooooooows.

Anyweeey, there's only one poster of rubbish on this forum, Deeeeyvid - and it's not the Prudhoe Pixie.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 03:42 PM

In that case you are an idiot. The fiddle is VERY closely associated with England.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 03:54 PM

". . . having enjoyed the guitar being played in an English style. . . ."   [from WAV's website]

WAV, I have been studying the guitar, its history and its various techniques, I have been playing the instrument since the early 1950s, and I have taught the guitar in both private lessons (classical and folk) and in classes (folk) since the late 1950s.   My life has been inextricably linked with the guitar all these years. I recognize that there are a few distinct regional styles of playing, such as flamenco in Andalusia, Mexican folk styles (making use of some flamenco techniques such as free use of the rasgueado), alternating bass or "finger-picking" styles that developed in the southern U. S. along with blues styles, and, of course, various jazz and pop styles. But I can't recall every hearing any style of guitar playing that I could identify as an "English style."

Can you direct me to any guitarists who play specifically "English style," or any CDs where I may hear this style?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 04:29 PM

If someone were to say English style, I would immediately think of Davey Graham, Martin Carthy, Jansch and Renbourne and Nic Jones, who were all heavily influenced by American styles too.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 04:51 PM

Hmm. Having listened to a selection of the aforementioned on YouTube, I can't say that I hear anything beyond what sounds like each individual's variations on what are generally considered to be American folk guitar styles. Apparently heavily influenced, as you say, Volgandon.

"English style?" Hard to recognize anything that would distinctly characterize it as such.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,jm
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 05:22 PM

I think you'll find a lot of people on this thread are more well known than you suspect David... You are well out of your depth here amongst several members of the efdss national council, at least one major festival artistic director, at least one noted collector, many professional performers including a very big name indeed, and other posters who have spent entire lifetimes working at the coalface of traditional music. And that's just the people I know...

Listen to us all - everyone here has more knowledge about this than you and they (mostly) being polite and patient in the face of your refusal to listen. As Eliza suggested, learn more - wikipedia and "a programme you saw once" are not accurate sources, just as "pottages and lawn tennis" doesn't count as participating in English culture. Your pronouncements are mostly hilarious if not for the fact that there's so much conviction behind them. Go out and get involved - not lecture, or decide how things should be done based on the fact you'd prefer the world to nice a neat and tidy, or decide you already know enough from a single summers travelling to last a lifetime - but FIND OUT MORE.

Jim (go on... Work out which Jim...)


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Surreysinger
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 06:49 PM

"here amongst several members of the efdss national council, at least one major festival artistic director, at least one noted collector, many professional performers including a very big name indeed, and other posters who have spent entire lifetimes working at the coalface of traditional music."

And some of them, of course, fit into more than one of those categories.

"go on... Work out which Jim"
Now I'm curious .... and speculating ... do any of us get a Mars bar if we get it right ... chuckle.

As to using real names or nicknames ... that's a matter of choice WAV, David or whatever you choose to be. Some of us, like Ralphie or Don choose to use their real names. Others like to use nicknames .. I only really use one because that's how I started on here some years ago ... but I think you'll find that over time most of us who are regulars have got to know who everybody else is in the real world, so even if we're posting under nickname/pseudonym/whatever you wish to call it, it isn't actually an anonymous posting as such. As to considering that Ruth could be maligning a REAL person, please don't tell me that you're one of those people who would have sent a wreath to the studios when one of the characters in the radio series died ... you wouldn't would you ????
(I personally am concerned in case any real Granma McAlatias are feeling maligned, or come to that any Koala Subverters....)

I see from your Myspace and website that you have been interested in traditional music since 2004(and I have to echo Ralphie in being surprised at the use of the term E Trad - never seen it used by anyone else ever before ... and hope never to see it again, as we already have too many problems in the use of definitions). Interest and enthusiasm are laudable, but with so little experience, and faced with a veritable army of people on here who know so much more than you, you really have been and are digging a very very large hole for yourself. As Jim said, you really should go and FIND OUT MORE before arguing the toss with people who in many cases have vast experience and knowledge at their fingertips.

And yes, just in case it wasn't clear to you one of the people you've been having a go at IS the newly appointed Artistic Director of the Sidmouth Folk Week. And most of us are well aware of that, whether she chooses to use her given name, or her Mudcat name...

Oh well, despite the hour back to practice on the duet,Monarch /King of the tinas ... possibly with both hands ... maybe just the left....definitely not in an English manner ... might confuse myself...

Surreysinger
(aka Irene Shettle who is hopefully not maligning any other Surreysingers ...)


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 07:28 AM

Maybe Wav would have included the banjo on his list if it were known as the English banjo, or the Anjo.


Volgadon, who may or may not be maligning two rivers, as well as anyone called Don.....


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: TheSnail
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 10:14 AM

You are well out of your depth here amongst several members of the efdss national council, at least one major festival artistic director, at least one noted collector, many professional performers including a very big name indeed, and other posters who have spent entire lifetimes working at the coalface of traditional music.

You'd think they had better things to do with their time than argue the toss with WAV.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Surreysinger
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 10:16 AM

Hmm ... I thought that was a mix of VOLtarol and MoGADON ... a painkiller that puts you to sleep ... is that relevant to this thread ?


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 10:43 AM

Snail, the only reason I do is because of the racism, which he hitches wholesale to the cart of English traditions, before peddling his wares to anyone who will take them (or be too polite to say no...)

it's important that people who see his bizarre polemics posted here, there and everywhere know that they do NOT represent the views of the majority of the English folk fraternity.

I'm not English, of course.

Anyway, everyone takes coffee breaks! :)


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 10:57 AM

If it's the Jim I think it is, can I congratulate you on the Adam Ant song? It even won over my folk-averse partner... Now there's a man who was an English institution! (Adam, not Mrs Cringe).

Ridicule is nothing to be scared of... probably quite pertinent to this thread.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: TheSnail
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 11:50 AM

Somehow, Ruth, I don't think you're going to change WAVs mind about anything and he doesn't seem to be gathering much support.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 01:17 PM

"and I have to echo Ralphie in being surprised at the use of the term E Trad - never seen it used by anyone else ever before" (Surreysinger)...so, maybe my 4 years has been relatively intense, having eventually found folk music following a major in anthroplogy...could it be that I was indeed trained in what to look for? I was also fortunate to quickly come across a tape called "Voices", which had several good unaccompanied E trads (English traditional songs) on it.
But which him is "Jim", nor how much can a koala bear, I know not, frankly..?
"And yes, just in case it wasn't clear to you one of the people you've been having a go at IS the newly appointed Artistic Director of the Sidmouth Folk Week. And most of us are well aware of that, whether she chooses to use her given name, or her Mudcat name...Oh well, despite the hour back to practice on the duet,Monarch /King of the tinas ... possibly with both hands ... maybe just the left....definitely not in an English manner ... might confuse myself..."...it's all in great hands then!
"the only reason I do is because of the racism" (Ruth)...false and defamatory, again - I love the world being multicultural; you hate anyone questioning immigration.
"Somehow, Ruth, I don't think you're going to change WAVs mind about anything and he doesn't seem to be gathering much support." (The Snail)...yes my views are still radical but, if you do keep up-to-date somehow, Snail, you'd know that things have moved at least a tad more my way just lately.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,eliza c
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 01:26 PM

Here I go again, because I can't help myself...eyup j(i)m...you too eh...
David, I've spent twenty years in the research and promotion of English traditional music, and one of the things I have always had to contend with, in frustration and fury, is peoples' assertions that anyone interested in such things could only be a weirdo and/or a borderline racist/nationalist.
There have often been very good discussions on this messageboard about English traditional music despite the fact that it was not set up as a folky board, and I have often learned a lot just by lurking.
Not any more. You have hijacked this subject here and made it a laughing stock once again. Spoons for God's sake????!!!! Thanks a frigging bunch. Ignorant, ignorant man. Rubbish indeed.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 01:30 PM

Wav, you love the world being sorted into neat, tidy little boxes labelled French Culture, Russian Culture, Indian Culture, and so on. Woe be us if they were ever to mix, let along touch ENGLISH culture.

Wav, you havce done nothing whatsoever with anthropology. You only covered the basics, the general idea. You keep belitlling research for a masters, really a shame that you never did any, because you might have learned how to study an issue IN DEPTH.

Wav, I've been listening to folk songs since the age of three. Twenty one years later I am still learning, and I am sure that there are those here who would say the same even after 50 years.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: TheSnail
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 01:48 PM

if you do keep up-to-date somehow, Snail

What? You mean actually read your doggerel? AAAAARRRRRRGH!


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 01:50 PM

Monsieur Mollusk, I believe the point that Ruth is making is summed up in the adage that silence in the face of nonsense, particularly malevolent nonsense, implies agreement. Someone should speak out in opposition, even if there is no hope that the author of the nonsense will be persuaded to change his thinking.

And I most definitely agree with GUEST, jim, that WAV is in way over his head when, with his four years of acquaintance with folk music, he is arrogant enough to try to lecture people who have spent their entire lives deeply involved in folk music as a profession and a serious study, some of whom are knowledgeable and talented performers who have been entertaining and educating audiences for many decades.

WAV is rather like a very green cabin boy on his first sea voyage who, having read a few Horatio Hornblower novels and rowed a small skiff on a pond, acts toward a thoroughly experienced crew of crusty ol