BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 02:09 PM

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 02:01 PM

There are now two Labour threads. This one is utterly toxic and infested by trolls. We don't need two threads. I appeal to the moderators to shut this one down.


Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 07:48 AM

The whole point of my last two posts, Stu, is that I AM "giving it a rest," so your non-moderatorial injunction is not appreciated, thank you very much.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 02:01 PM

There are now two Labour threads. This one is utterly toxic and infested by trolls. We don't need two threads. I appeal to the moderators to shut this one down.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 01:54 PM

Uncomfortable truths eh Shaw. Tell us again why you think you're entitled to define anti-semitism for Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 01:47 PM

A concerted effort by two trolls on the same day to revive a toxic thread. Very suspicious.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 01:32 PM

Labour antisemitism has been high in the news again in the last few days.
It is a current and live issue.
You may wish it was dead, but it is not.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 10:27 AM

A dead thread. You're trolling.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 10:15 AM

Schwarz-Friesel is one of the most quoted experts on anti-Semitism in both international academic literature and the German media.

In her numerous publications she analyzes and exposes new manifestations of old anti-Semitic sentiments — disguised though they might be — employing much of the same Jew-hatred that has been shaping European discourse throughout the years, even when officially outlawed.

These analyses are evidence that recent anti-Israeli tropes demonizing the Jewish state are actually work-arounds of old anti-Semitic sentiments that have been with us for two millennia.

Zionism is being equated with racism and Israel is being called an "apartheid regime," posing the greatest danger to world peace. Such ideas have nothing to do with the reality on the ground. Instead they reflect classic anti-Semitic stereotypes that have been with us for 2,000 years and that brand Jews as murderers and an omnipresent evil force in the world.

There is a global Israelization of anti-Semitic discourse. The articulation of traditional anti-Semitic stereotypes by projecting them onto Israel is by now the most dominant manifestation of modern Jew hatred.

TOI

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 10:14 AM

Wiki,
"Holocaust Memorial Day (HMD) (27 January) is a national commemoration day in the United Kingdom dedicated to the remembrance of those who suffered in The Holocaust, under Nazi Persecution, and in subsequent genocides in Cambodia, Rwanda, Bosnia and Darfur."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 08:36 AM

I see Carroll is up to his usual - continually repeating a lie in an attempt to manufacture more anti-Jewish sentiment - he is obsessed.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 05:14 AM

" She was just ignorant of the fact that they do share Holocaust day."Whre have they ever been included or even mentioned?
Utter indecent and inhuman crap
It took Germany up to 2011 to invite a Roma as guest of honor at German'y's Holocaust Day - Britain never has, nor probably ever will
How is it possibly an insult to the Jewish people to put that right
Apartheid beyond the grave - sick-sick-sick
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 04:49 AM


It is not Antisemitic to suggest that othr victims of the Holocaust should share Holocaust Day, b#y any stretch of the imagination

No. She was just ignorant of the fact that they do share Holocaust day.
Walker had just not bothered to check that her beliefs and prejudice were just anti-Jewish propaganda.

To suggest that other victims can't is Apartheid beyond the grave and a conformation of everything that has gone wrong with Israel

It would be if it was true, but it is just lying propaganda. Holocaust Day DOES encompass all acts of genocide since WW2.

It is indecently grotesque to exclude victims from such an event

It would be, but it is not true. It is just lying anti-Jewish propaganda

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 04:34 AM

It is not Antisemitic to suggest that othr victims of the Holocaust should share Holocaust Day, b#y any stretch of the imagination
To suggest that other victims can't is Apartheid beyond the grave and a conformation of everything that has gone wrong with Israel - a dream shattered by fascistm
It is indecently grotesque to exclude victims from such an event - show me a definition that does
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 04:17 AM

If suggesting that non Jews should be remembered on Holocaust dat is now antisemitic,

They are. Walker had just not bothered to check that her beliefs and prejudice were just propaganda.


If Jackie Walker is expelled it will be wrong
She is.

nothing she said can be described as Antisemitic

That is just your opinion, and Steve's, but almost no-one in the Labour Party agrees with you. Your view of what constitutes antisemitism is suspect.
You claimed that Shah had not made antisemitic comments.
Her antisemitism was recognised by the NEC, the Party leadership, Corbyn and Shah herself, but denied by you two.

You just do not see it even when your faces are rubbed in it.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Oct 16 - 01:21 PM

If Jackie Walker is expelled it will be wrong - nothing she said can be described as Antisemitic
If suggesting that non Jews should be remembered on Holocaust dat is now antisemitic, it is proof positive that there is no longer a working definition of that term.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Oct 16 - 12:58 PM

Not true Greg.
I was the one who kept objecting to Israel being discussed.

On this thread, Jim attacked Israel on 29 Apr 16 - 06:23 AM , and in the other thread he did it on 15 Aug 16 - 02:40 AM .

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Oct 16 - 11:56 AM

Now the other thread has become devoted to Middle East politics, perhaps we can discuss the original subject here again.

Says the Professor, who derailed the thread in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Oct 16 - 10:35 AM

Now the other thread has become devoted to Middle East politics, perhaps we can discuss the original subject here again.

The latest development is that Jackie Walker, previously suspended over allegations of antisemitism but later re-admitted, has been suspended again!

BBC,
"Momentum vice-chair 'suspended by Labour' amid anti-Semitism row"

"Earlier, the TSSA union said it would "seriously reconsider" its support for Momentum if Ms Walker remained in place and the group said its steering committee would meet on Monday to seek her removal.
But a spokesman for Momentum, the left-wing grassroots organisation set up in wake of Jeremy Corbyn's 2015 election as Labour leader, said: "Members of Momentum's steering committee are seeking to remove Jackie Walker as vice-chair of the committee."

It can not be argued that this comes from anti-Corbynites. These are pro-Corbynites.
BBC again,
"Manuel Cortes, general secretary of the TSSA union, which backed Momentum and Mr Corbyn's leadership, said on Thursday he was "deeply saddened that a fellow member of our Labour and trade union family holds such anti-Semitic views" and said she should not be allowed to "remain active within our party".
"I am asking Jackie that in the interests of unity she resigns at once from our party and also as vice-chair of Momentum.
"If she doesn't, both the Labour Party and Momentum need to act to get rid of her at once.
"We would seriously need to consider our union's support for Momentum if she is still in post by this time next week." "
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37526320

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Sep 16 - 02:13 PM

The "anti-Semitism" row continues to rumble on with calls from those within the Labour Party for Jackie Walker to be expelled permanently.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Sep 16 - 01:52 AM

Steve,

Desperate post from Keith. He doesn't recognise the conspiracy against Corbyn even when it rears up and bites him on the bollock.

It has not. Nor has it bitten BBC, Guardian, Indy, Huff or any other rational commentator.
It is just a convenient conspiracy theory to explain away the hard facts.

And anyone who thinks that the Tories have ever occupied the "middle ground" is clearly as mad as a box of frogs. Unspeakable and malevolent rubbish, as ever.

" When David Cameron moved the Conservatives to the centre it caused problems with the Conservative right.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-31973051"

Does one of the Bs stand for box of frogs Steve?
Are they guilty of being "desperate" and disseminating "unspeakable and malevolent rubbish?

Of course not.
You got it wrong again, and villified and ridiculed me for getting it right again.

You would look less ridiculous if you avoided name calling and ridicule when so often you are subsequently proved wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Sep 16 - 01:38 AM

"facts such as the head of JLM being appointed by Israel" - Jim Carroll

Care to enlighten us as to how that could possibly come about?

Perhaps you could tell us what position British born Hertsmere Labour activist Jeremy Newmark has in the Israeli Government? He after all as actual elected head of the JLM and former CEO of the UK's Jewish Leadership Council, was the man who sanctioned the recruitment and appointment of Ella Rose to the newly created post of Director of the JLM.

It would appear that this "fact" of yours, like so many of your other "facts" is just pure fantasy.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Sep 16 - 02:57 PM

Still no response to facts such as the head of JLM being appointed by Israel

If it is a fact, support it with some evidence.

Still; no description of the "antisemitism" Labour has been accused of.

Shah's antisemitism has been described.
I am not in a position to know about the rest of it, but the NEC is, and it has also been referred to by numerous prominent members and officials and in Corbyn's speech today, so stop making yourself ridiculous by denying it.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Sep 16 - 01:57 PM

Still nothing other than denials
Still no response to facts such as the head of JLM being appointed by Israel
Still; no description of the "antisemitism" Labour has been accused of.
Still no numbers involved.
A trial without specified charges and unnamed accused.
Instead we have unspecified charges against unspecified people against a party that has no record by a group of politicians who are virtually all linked back to a regime that is desperately trying to offset a boycott of goods brought about because of that regime's record of Human Rights abuses and atrocities - the only ones that haven't been were opponents of and have just been thrashed by a leader who supports the rights of the Palesnians and is an outspoken opponent of the people who have instigated these charges in the first place
Think we're done here, don't you?
G'night sweethearts
Jim Carroll
"The question you have to ask yourself is, why? Why has this issue been resurrected with a vengeance, so soon after its previous outing was disposed of as a farce? Is it because of a handful of allegedly antisemitic social media postings from Labour members? Is it because of the tongue-in-cheek map posted by Naz Shah? That's not believable. The only plausible answer is, it's political. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the factual situation; instead, a few suspect cases of antisemitism – some real, some contrived – are being exploited for an ulterior political motive. As one senior Labour MP said the other day, it's transparently a smear campaign."

https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/jamie-stern-weiner-norman-finkelstein/american-jewish-scholar-behind-labour-s-antisemitism-scanda

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Sep 16 - 01:07 PM

Jim,
You refuse to address the implications of the undeniable links between the Israelis and the attack on the Labour Party.

It is eminently deniable!! No evidence or any fact has been produced.

So far almost every example of "antisemitism" in the Labour Party has been attacks on Israeli policy and behaviour - not on the Jewish people

Not true. Can you find a single such example? NO!

If there is antisemitism in the Labour party tell us what it is and how it manifests itself - so far, you have refused to do so.

I am not in a position to know, but the NEC is.
"The NEC are appalled by recent cases of anti-Semitic abuse. Anti-Semitism has no place in the Labour Party"
" The entire NEC recognises the seriousness of this issue "

The Jewish Labour Movement voted overwhelmingly against Corbyn as leader

The whole Party, apart from the recent entrants, overwhelmingly did too, so nothing exceptional there.

t's links with the Israeli regime by having a leader who was appointed by them from their own ranks have been established -

No it has not! Instead of just repeating your vacuous claims, show us the evidence. Good luck with that.

To date, no evidence of actual Antisemitsm has yet been established.

Yes it has!
"The NEC are appalled by recent cases of anti-Semitic abuse. Anti-Semitism has no place in the Labour Party"
" The entire NEC recognises the seriousness of this issue "

All cases so far have been established as being criticism of Israel, not the Jewish People

No it has not! Instead of just repeating your vacuous claims, show us the evidence. Good luck with that.

All of these statements are based on provide information,

No they are not!

whereas all yours are opinions backed up by nothing.

They are backed by quotes from numerous prominent members and officials, the entire NEC and Corbyn's speech today.
You lose.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Sep 16 - 09:59 AM

"The Jewish Labour Movement voted overwhelmingly against Corbyn as leader"

Not really surprising that is it? Considering that Corbyn counts Hamas and Hezbollah as being his "friends" along with his total inaction and total failure in exercising any leadership in curbing the excesses of the undoubtedly anti-Semitic elements amongst his supporters (Jewish Members of the Labour Party have complained about it and I have no cause to doubt them and can see no reason for them to deliberately lie about it)

"It's links with the Israeli regime by having a leader who was appointed by them from their own ranks have been established - you want to prove that she wasn't - do so."

I believe that Ella Rose is a British Citizen, who was born and raised in the UK, where she went to University. Upon graduating she got a job at the Israeli Embassy, a job she subsequently left to take up her job with the Jewish Labour Movement - now at what point in that career path was Ella Rose ever part of the "Israeli Regime"? I would like to point out that it is not uncommon at all for Foreign Embassies to employ what are known as "locally employed personnel".

"Remind me of how Theresa May set about removing obstacles when she became Prime Minister!!

HUH??? What on earth has that got to do with anything??

"To date, no evidence of actual Antisemitsm has yet been established."

Ah so the urgent and immediate recommendations to combat racism (anti-Semitism) in the Labour Party tabled by Baroness Royall were a figment of our imagination were they? What about the recommendations tabled by Labour's newest Peer Shami Chakrabarti who was awarded her peerage after how many days as a member of the Labour Party?

The BDS Campaign is deliberately directed against and affects the people of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Sep 16 - 08:29 AM

The Jewish Labour Movement voted overwhelmingly against Corbyn as leader
It's links with the Israeli regime by having a leader who was appointed by them from their own ranks have been established - you want to prove that she wasn't - do so.
Remind me of how Theresa May set about removing obstacles when she became Prime Minister!!
To date, no evidence of actual Antisemitsm has yet been established.
All cases so far have been established as being criticism of Israel, not the Jewish People - this is common sense and humanity - not Antisemitism.
All of these statements are based on provide information, whereas all yours are opinions backed up by nothing.
Put up or go talk to your mate - I'm really not interested in prolongling this time-wasting nonsense.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Sep 16 - 07:03 AM

No facts just opinions

No link between the Israeli Government and the Jewish Labour Movement

By the way the head of the JLM is it's Chairman not it's Director.

Your Link:

"Jewish Labour Movement (JLM), a leading voice in recent claims that the Labour Party has a problem with antisemitism, has published an extraordinary attack on Jewish critics of Israel, seemingly suggesting that those dissenting from support for Zionism are not actually Jewish."

You mean the same as:

The "Momentum" Movement, has mounted an extraordinary attack on critics of Jeremy Corbyn, seemingly suggesting that those dissenting from support for Jeremy Corbyn are not actually real "socialists" or Labour Party Members.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Sep 16 - 06:16 AM

"So the JLM was formed in order to combat the BDS Campaign was it?"
Read the links
No it was not.
"the embassy sees the once defunct JLM " (Jews for Justice)
It eas resurrected and a regime employee was appointed as its head.
Quote in full -again
"Jewish Labour Movement woken by Israel's kiss
A former officer at the Israeli embassy in London, Ella Rose, has been appointed as the new director of the Jewish Labour Movement. From Asa Winstanley's account it seems as though the embassy sees the once defunct JLM as its anti-BDS weapon of choice."
Jews For Justice"
If oyu can't be arsed to read the information put up and respond to it honestly, then I can't be arsed to respond to you.
Haven't you had enough humiliation?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Sep 16 - 05:51 AM

"the fact that the Israelis have revived the J.L.M. and placed one of its own supporters at its head in order to combat the boycott campaign"

What fact?

What connection between the Israeli Government and the Jewish Labour Movement?

The person currently and the person previously at the head of the JLM were both elected, nobody was "placed" anywhere.

So the JLM was formed in order to combat the BDS Campaign was it? Must have had amazing foresight if indeed that was the case the JLM being formed in 2004 while the BDS Campaign didn't form itself until 2005.

Alternatively a movement established in 2004 waits until 2016 and the retirement of it's Chairman to combat and confront an organised campaign that got underway in 2005.

Either way it is totally illogical and ridiculous.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Sep 16 - 03:58 AM

You have the fact that the Israelis have revived the J.L.M. and placed one of its own supporters at its head in order to combat the boycott campaign
You choose to ignore it.
That information came from Jews who oppose the regime, your ignoring it is proof that you are more interested in defending and extremist right-wing regime than you are defending the Jewish People.
You move on to even more unsubstantiated quotes from political infighters.
You refuse to address the implications of the undeniable links between the Israelis and the attack on the Labour Party.
So far almost every example of "antisemitism" in the Labour Party has been attacks on Israeli policy and behaviour - not on the Jewish people
THAT IS NOT ANTISEMITISM BY ANY DEFINITION - THE ISRAELIS ARE NOT THE JEWS AND THEY HAVE MADE A POINT OF ATTACKING AND DENIGRATING JEWS WHO OPPOSE THEIR POLICIES
If there is antisemitism in the Labour party tell us what it is and how it manifests itself - so far, you have refused to do so.
WHAT IS THIS SO-CALLED ANTISEMTISM IF IT EXISTS?,/font>
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Sep 16 - 02:20 AM

BBC on Centre Ground.

"Although the voters were moving leftwards, the Labour Party was seen as even further left, and it was not until 1997, when Tony Blair had abandoned the extremes of left-wing Labour policy and moved his party to the centre, that they won."

""Most voters are in the centre-ground. Most party members and most MPs are not," Dr Tom Quinn, one of John Bartle's colleagues at Essex University, told BBC Radio 4's World at One.
"When you see parties which track closely to the centre-ground like Blair's New Labour, it causes internal tensions. So there were always problems between Blair and the trade unions, and Blair and the Brown-ites. When David Cameron moved the Conservatives to the centre it caused problems with the Conservative right.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-31973051

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Sep 16 - 02:11 AM

Jim,
The Group is a political one pledged to defend Israel

Yes it is. What is wrong with that?

- which, in the present circumstances, means the present regime.

Bollocks!. Not this or any previous regime, and it has never suggested this or any were above criticism.

Steve, you must be desperate or dishonest to claim it is all a "conspiracy" and that the Guardian, BBC, Huff Post, Indy etc are all gullible dupes with no clue what is happening.
You are just making yourself ridiculous.

The Independent, 14 hours ago.
"Shadow Defence Secretary Clive Lewis denounces 'appalling anti-Semitism in Labour Party'
Loyal supporters are deserting Labour because of the issue, Mr Lewis says
Rob Merrick Deputy Political Editor @Rob_Merrick 14 hours "

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-clive-lewis-antisemitism-speech-praise-rousing-appalling-party-a7333396.html

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Sep 16 - 08:04 PM

Read tha article Keith
The Group is a political one pledged to defend Israel - which, in the present circumstances, means the present regime.
It doesn't matter anyway - in order for the leaflet to be "antisemitic" as claimed, it would have to be attacking the Jewish People - it doesn't - it attacks a group
Accusing a political or workers group criticising the Israeli Regime of being "antisemitic" would be like accusing anybody criticising say the TUC of being Anti-British The Israeli establishment is not, nor does it represent the Jewish People as a whole
This makes my point perfectly - all these claims of Antisemitism aimed at the Labour Party are traceable back to teh Israeli propaganda machine.
If you want to prove that antisemitism is a serious problem within the Labour then you are going to have tyo start coming up with examples stroger than open and obvious criticism of Israel - "produce the body or you have no case"
Jim Carroll
"Jewish Labour Movement woken by Israel's kiss
A former officer at the Israeli embassy in London, Ella Rose, has been appointed as the new director of the Jewish Labour Movement. From Asa Winstanley's account it seems as though the embassy sees the once defunct JLM as its anti-BDS weapon of choice."
Jews For Justice

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Sep 16 - 04:10 PM

Desperate post from Keith. He doesn't recognise the conspiracy against Corbyn even when it rears up and bites him on the bollock. And anyone who thinks that the Tories have ever occupied the "middle ground" is clearly as mad as a box of frogs. Unspeakable and malevolent rubbish, as ever.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Sep 16 - 01:20 PM

Jim,
It views Zionism as the national liberation movement of the Jewish people.

Can you substantiate that? And, what is wrong with being a Zionist?
They are just people whose "aim is to promote "a secure, progressive, just and successful State of Israel". Anything wrong with any of that?

Steve,
Not all "Labour Jews" (Christ on a bike) are lifelong members

Of course not!? They would just be Labour voters, now down to about 8% of Jews from 18%
As you know, I was referring to those lifelong Labour members and activates who are reporting serious antisemitism in the Party, many of whom I have quoted.

What they ALL are are ardent opponents of Jeremy Corbyn,

Most are Labour MPs, and 80% of Labour MPs are indeed ardent opponents of JC. It is not a Jewish thing. Just probability.

The issue has been thoroughly investigated and concluded, though clearly not to your or their satisfaction.

It is clearly not concluded. It is very much a live issue. look at all the articles I have linked to just from recent days, and there were many moree. Today it was on BBC World at One, and in the Guardian 7 hours ago.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/sep/27/jewish-labour-members-unified-party-faiths-views

What they want, and what YOU want, is all criticism of the actions of Israel,

It is not what I want, and I do not believe they want it.
Just another wild assertion that you will never be able to support with any single fact. Why do you do it?
Same reason you call me names. Its all you can do.

You and they are part of the pro-Israel lobby,

You said that you are pro Israel Steve!!

your bloody Tories,

Not my Tories actually. Only when they alone occupy the middle ground.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Sep 16 - 09:23 AM

Not all "Labour Jews" (Christ on a bike) are lifelong members and not all supporters of that setup, or of Labour Friends of Israel, are Jews. What they ALL are are ardent opponents of Jeremy Corbyn, a lifelong anti-racist and opponent of antisemitism, who are doing their damnedest to undermine him at every opportunity by wilfully exaggerating an issue that has been properly and honestly dealt with, naturally getting the right-wing gutter press, idiots like you and the rest of the pro-Israel lobby's lackeys to keep the fire aflame. The issue has been thoroughly investigated and concluded, though clearly not to your or their satisfaction. What they want, and what YOU want, is all criticism of the actions of Israel, nothing at all to do with true antisemitism, to be suppressed. You and they are part of the pro-Israel lobby, which sucks almost as much in this country as it does in the US for its unprincipled and undemocratic methods. Well tough luck. Bugger off and vote for Theresa May and her scummy bunch of Tory racists instead. But do yourself a favour and STOP LYING about the one party in this country that has made a genuine effort to root out antisemitism, and it certainly had less cause to do so than your bloody Tories, rotten to their racist core.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Sep 16 - 08:41 AM

JLM attacks critics of Israel
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Sep 16 - 08:10 AM

"The literature, reportedly handed out in and around the Labour Party's annual conference in Liverpool, claims the Jewish Labour Movement (JLM) "acts as a representative of Israel"."
Jim Carroll

The Jewish Labour Movement (UK), founded in 2004, is the successor organisation to Poale Zion. It is affiliated with the Labour Party in the UK as a Socialist society. It is also affiliated with the World Labour Zionist Movement, a faction within the World Zionist Organization, and has unofficial ties to the Habonim Dror Labour Zionist youth movement.
It views Zionism as the national liberation movement of the Jewish people.
Its aim is to promote "a secure, progressive, just and successful State of Israel". It is affiliated to the World Labour Zionist Movement. It campaigns against racism generally (especially the British National Party) and seeks to promote a viable peace plan to the Israel-Palestine conflict. With regards to the latter it upholds the rights of the Palestinian people to live at peace with their neighbours on the basis of a Two-state solution.[1]
In February 2016, Louise Ellman MP retired as Chair of the Movement and Hertsmere Labour activist Jeremy Newmark was elected as her successor. Newmark is a former CEO of the UK's Jewish Leadership Council and a previous spokesperson for the previous Chief Rabbi, Jonathan Sacks. Sarah Sackman and Mike Katz were elected as Vice-Chairs of JLM. Sackman stood as Labour's candidate in Finchley and Golders Green in the 2015 General Election. Katz was selected as a Labour Party Candidate for the GLA in the London Assembly election, 2016.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Sep 16 - 07:34 AM

Steve, we are not Jews.
If Labour Jews say they are experiencing antisemitism, who are we to call them all liars?
These are lifelong Labour members and activists, and this is a live current issue.
Anyway, name calling and ridicule should have no part in serious discussion and it should shame you that you need to resort to it.

I have smeared no one and resent another false accusation from you.
I have just quoted those involved.
Is the Guardian guilty of smearing?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Sep 16 - 06:42 AM

Tbose at the "sharp end" of attacks are simply being criticised for blowing up a minor issue that has already been comprehensively addressed out of all proportion for their own nefarious ends, the most significant of which is to stifle any and all criticism of Israeli policies. We can't help it if you dishonestly won't see it, and, as for name-calling, YOU are smearing the good names of hundreds of thousands of Labour members who are one hundred percent intolerant of all forms of antisemitism, the overwhelming majority, so do stop coming the victim, please.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Sep 16 - 03:34 AM

Guardian yesterday,
"Wes Streeting, the Labour MP who chairs the all-party group on British Jews, said on Monday it was wrong to suggest Labour was a "hotbed of antisemitism", but nonetheless had a problem it needed to tackle.

Streeting told BBC Radio 4's Today programme that a leaflet distributed outside the Momentum event labelled the Jewish Labour Movement "a representative of a foreign power, Israel". He said: "This isn't ambiguous. This is a classic antisemitic trope, at our conference."

Streeting said Corbyn could do more to tackle the issue: "They're not going to listen to people like me. But they do place a lot of faith and stock in Jeremy.

"And as someone who has a track record of tackling racism and discrimination, he has in the past year had a golden opportunity he hasn't yet taken up to show real leadership on this and to help navigate through some of the problems that we face in terms of antisemitism."

Another Labour MP, Luciana Berger, told Today: "There are too many examples of where my Jewish parliamentary colleagues, where my Jewish council colleagues, where Jewish members have been attacked because they are Jewish. We need to stamp it out." "
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/26/corbyn-urged-to-show-leadership-in-tackling-antisemitism-within-labour-wes-streeting-labour

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Sep 16 - 03:04 AM

Steve,
In general they do not support the current actions of the extreme right-wing regime in Israel, seeking a more inclusive and less combative way forward.

Of course not. They are lifelong Labour activists! Jews have been an integral part of the Labour Movement from its beginning.
All they are objecting to now is the antisemitism that has very recently become prevalent, along with misogyny and homophobia.

It is silly of you to pretend it is not a significant issue and to call me names and ridicule me for showing that it is. It is a live issue.

Sky News yesterday,

"By Jason Farrell, Senior Political Correspondent
Jewish MPs are outraged by the latest claims of Momentum activists that allegations of anti-Semitism within the Labour Party are exaggerated."

"National Chair of the Jewish Labour Movement, Jeremy Newmark was invited to the Momentum event and challenged the room to produce examples of a "conspiracy to silence legitimate critique of the state of Israel" within the Jewish community.

He claimed that Ms Walker's "use of an anti-Semitic myth" about the slave trade caused "hurt and pain" and led to verbal abuse of a Jewish Labour member.

He argued that there was a serious problem of abuse in the Labour Party"

"Jewish MP Luciana Berger responded to comments from the Momentum meeting, saying: "Those of us at the sharp end of abuse and attacks will be the judge of whether anti-Semitism has been exaggerated or not." "
http://news.sky.com/story/jewish-mps-angry-at-claims-that-anti-semitism-is-exaggerated-10593739

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 06:44 PM

Oh! Smeg.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 06:35 PM

OH! Bubo!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 05:02 PM

It is from something called The Institute of Palestine studies

Oh! Carroll.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 04:13 PM

The literature, reportedly handed out in and around the Labour Party's annual conference in Liverpool, claims the Jewish Labour Movement (JLM) "acts as a representative of Israel".

Well it patently is, and is is not antisemitic to say so. The organised groups of Israel supporters in Labour align themselves with the Israeli Labor Party. They are not my favourite bunches of people but they have every right to be advocates for Israel. In general they do not support the current actions of the extreme right-wing regime in Israel, seeking a more inclusive and less combative way forward. I still don't like them and regard them as wrong-headed, but, to dig up an old cliche, Labour is a broad church. Sorry, Keith, but you are clutching at straws and you are risking the safety and security of the Israeli people by constantly upping the ante. I guess that makes you rabidly antisemitic. Ironic, really, but true.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 03:58 PM

Huffington Post, 9 hours ago.

"Labour Party Conference 2016: 'Anti-Semitic, Racist' Leaflets Distributed Outside Momentum Event
It comes after a series of reports of abuse against Jews at the four-day event."
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/labour-party-conference-2016-anti-semitic-racist-leaflets-distributed-outside-momentum-event_uk_57e8c2eae4b0e81629aa08f4

East London and West Essex Guardian Series-9 hours ago

"A LABOUR MP has described controversial leaflets distributed at this week's party conference as "classic anti-Semitic trope".

The literature, reportedly handed out in and around the Labour Party's annual conference in Liverpool, claims the Jewish Labour Movement (JLM) "acts as a representative of Israel".

Like many of his Labour colleagues, MP for Ilford North Wes Streeting has expressed major concern over the leaflets and the "undeniable" issue of anti-Semitism within the party.

Speaking on BBC Radio this morning (September 26), he said: "I wouldn't want to give people the impression that the Labour Party is a hotbed of anti-Semitism, where every event you attend is full of members who have a problem with Jews – this is not the case.

"But this is a problem we have to tackle - because as a party committed to equality we should hold ourselves to higher standards."

The chairman of the All Party Parliamentary Group on British Jews added that his newly-re-elected leader Jeremy Corbyn has failed to show "real leadership" on the issue."
http://www.guardian-series.co.uk/news/14764480.Controversial_leaflets_are__classic_anti_Semitic_trope__claims_MP/?commentSort=ol

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 03:43 PM

I don't care whether you, the Beeb or the Guardian think it's a story. At least the latter two, who are obliged to actually report stuff that goes on in the world, present a balanced picture, which you signally did not in your post. As ever, extremely dishonest of you. You didn't even MENTION Jackie Walker at all. What she had to say was far more relevant and significant than the bitter rubbish spouted by your much-vaunted racist supporters of the despicable Israeli regime.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 03:36 PM

jim,
"everything that points the fingr at Israel is untrue and witness statements are inadmissible"

None of those "eye witnesses" appeared until long after the event and it has been easy to show that some of their claims are lies. There were no killings or rapes in hospitals.
You have also posted silly inventions from people who were not there at all.

The Phalange were in the camp from 18.30 on Thursday until 08.30 0n Saturday. Friday was the only whole day.

On Friday Siegel says, "a film crew from Visnews came. They did some filming, then left. Late in the afternoon, representatives of the International Committee of the Red Cross appeared; they evacuated a half-dozen critically injured children, whom they placed in other hospitals around the city. They also left us oxygen, blood and other vital and much-needed supplies. Finally, the ambassador of Norway came by."
None reported any signs of massacre, so it is unlikely that Israelis outside the camp could!

On Saturday morning The Phalange came out and ICRC, other NGOs and reporters went in. No secret movement of bodies or burials would be possible.

Steve, the BBC do not think it a non story. There was a lot of it on the Today Programme this morning.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 03:17 PM

Yes, Keith, but you utterly FAILED (a trait of yours) to even MENTION the far stronger contribution of Jackie Walker to this tired old non-debate. You must think we're stupid, Keith, but, unfortunately for you and your bigotry, some of us choose to read the link. The Labour-riddled-with-antisemitism con is burnt out. It's now just you and a few bitter anti-Corbynite "friends of Israel" (who are actually no such thing - I'm a damn sight bigger "friend of the Israeli people" than any of 'em, including you, as at least I want to keep the Israeli people out of harm's way - Jesus, have you SEEN Bibi cosying up to Trump over his apartheid wall? 😂😂😂) who keep on trying to resurrect it. Anyone with a quarter of a brain can see that Corbyn is a damn sight more opposed to all forms of discrimination and racism than any of the tawdry scumbags who you either support or keep bloody quiet about. Let's take Farage and Johnson as prime examples, shall we? My advice to you, Keith, is to give it a rest. Permanent would be good, you troll.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 01:17 PM

Nonsense Keith - everything contradicts Israel's/your version of events - the facilitating of the massacre, the burial of the bodies, the allowing the killers to escape - every singly argument is shot down in flames.
You say you are putting forward Israel's case yet here you describe anything put forward by Palestine as "all bollocks" - that sounds fair!!
I think if you pair had cut to the chase at the beginning by saying "everything that points the fingr at Israel is untrue and witness statements are inadmissible", we wouldn't have wasted all this time
I'm not prepared to waste any more - you offer nothing other than denial.
Unless you come up with some evidence between you, this is finished
Now, go wipe that egg off your face.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 01:09 PM

Continued.

Your Prof. Boyle piece is just ludicrous claims from someone who was not there.

Your Siegel piece says,
"That, I'm sure, turned out to be the mass grave."

It did not, and she saw no bodies and said nothing about graves in her original statements.

The Kahan Report is Israel's version of events, so what is your point?

Your Lamb piece is more ludicrous inventions from someone not there.

If there is anything significant in the massive Mason piece, please extract it. Was she there?

So you have still produced no evidence that contradicts Israel's version of events.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 01:00 PM

Never mind the quality feel the width eh Carroll?

Just regurgitating all that crap repeatedly doesn't alter the fact it is all mostly crap and post it again another umpteen times and it will still be crap.

Had you read the Kahan Commission Report you would know the true and verified story about the ID Card and dog tags and Franklin Lamb still didn't see a damned thing.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 12:57 PM

Jim, the only thing in your first paste job that contadicts israel's version is this.
"And in the hours and days after the massacres, many Palestinian men and boys were rounded up and trucked away, never to be seen again"

It is an obvious lie. ICRC and other NGOs, plus the world press were there and would have seen it.

You claim that the second pasting is from NY Times, but it is not.
It is from something called The Institute of Palestine studies, and is all bollocks.

The next NYTimes bit is genuine but does not contradicts Israel's version.
Extracts,
"It was impossible for a reporter who was not in the camp when the killings took place to determine with any certainty whether the Christian militiamen had acted on orders of the Israeli Army or whether they had gone on a killing spree without the knowledge of the Israeli command.

(In Jerusalem, Israeli officials deplored the slayings and said that Israeli troops had intervened, at one point with force, to prevent the Phalangists from killing more people.)"

"By late afternoon 500 to 600 men were huddled together under several tiers of the stadium awaiting questioning. The men were being provided with food and water, and anyone in need of medical attention was being treated."

"According to residents of Shatila and reporters who visited the main street of the camp Friday (day 2)evening, things were relatively calm in the area. "

"The Christian militiamen also stormed the Palestinian Akka Hospital, from which the International Committee of the Red Cross was trying to remove some of the wounded patients. Reliable Western medical sources who were at the hospital said a Palestinian nurse was repeatedly raped and shot dead by Christian militiamen, and several doctors from the hospital were taken off."
We now know these "reliable sources" were lying!

To be continued.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 04:54 AM

"Twelling"
Bit bereft of ideas if you have to highlight typos but is sums up your position perfectly
I assume you haven't quite got over 'last night's fun' yet.
"Now then J.I.M. tell us all exactly what it is that I have "denied"."
Take your pick - just about everything here and more - tell us what you've accepted other than the word of the isreali establishment
Take your pick
Jim Carroll

The survivors of Sabra and Shatila watched in mute horror, powerless to stop marauding militiamen from exterminating, mutilating, and raping their children, parents, husbands, wives, and friends. The lucky ones know where their loved ones' bodies are buried; many more, however, still have no clue about the final resting place of their dead. And in the hours and days after the massacres, many Palestinian men and boys were rounded up and trucked away, never to be seen again, most notably from a sports stadium near the refugee camps where Israeli military and intelligence officers were present. A mass grave site at the edge of the refugee camp now does double duty as a garbage dump and an occasional soccer field. Nearly 20 years after the massacre, not a single permanent memorial has been erected to commemorate the dead, not a single person--Israeli or Lebanese--has stood trial for the war crimes and crimes against humanity committed in the camps of Sabra and Shatila in September 1982. Such impunity is not only morally reprehensible and psychologically unbearable, but also politically dangerous because of the precedent it sets and the hearts and minds it poisons.
For those who covered the Sabra and Shatila massacre as journalists, no less than for those who served as medical workers in the camps' hospitals that scorching September twenty years ago, this week's televised images/archive/archive of Israeli tanks surrounding refugee camps in the West Bank and Gaza and the photographs of young men lined up, blindfolded and separated from their families as Israeli soldiers point guns at them, are chillingly familiar. Those who have witnessed massacres fear another may unfold at any minute. Those who survived the massacres are incredulous that it might happen again, but this time with the entire world witnessing the killings on prime time television. Those who have followed Ariel Sharon's biography closely--from the cold-blooded attack on the village of Qibya in 1953 that he orchestrated as leader of the notorious Unit 101, resulting in the deaths of nearly 70 innocent civilians, to his latest threats to wreak large scale destruction and collective punishment on Palestinians who have been trapped in their towns and villages under a long siege--urgently warn that Sharon must be stopped before mass graves are dug again in other refugee camps.
Laurie King-Irani
North American Coordinator
International Campaign for Justice for the Victims of Sabra and Shatila


Aftermath – persecution of refugees
Meanwhile, despite Yaron's apparent order from the morning, the pace of the killing had hardly slowed. As executions, knifings, and point-blank shootings continued, bulldozers were at work digging mass graves inside the camps—one of the largest being in full view of the IDF forward command— and, as witnessed by a Norwegian envoy, loading scoops of bodies onto trucks just outside the camp to be hauled away.2 3 A pattern had moreover emerged of executing groups and then bulldozing houses to bury the bodies under the rubble. At the same time, truckloads of Palestinian men, women, and children were seen leaving the camp—a Danish TV crew on Friday filmed groups being herded into trucks near Shatila.2 4 The bulldozing and dynamiting of houses (the "illegal structures" referred to by the Phalange to the Israelis), often with the inhabitants inside, accelerated.
Kapeliouk makes a similar point when describing Israel's provision of bulldozers to the Phalangists during the massacres. In a passage that seems eerily current in this summer of 2002, he writes,
Since the beginning of the war in June 1982, the Israelis have repeatedly used bulldozers to destroy homes and force the residents to flee. The refugee camps of south Lebanon were bombarded and then destroyed with explosives and bulldozers. In Israel, this operation was known as "the destruction of the terrorist infrastructure." The objective was to prevent the Palestinians from forming a national community in Lebanon. Therefore, it was necessary to destroy not only homes, but also Palestinian institutions such as schools, hospitals, and social service centers. In addition, the Israelis sought to deprive the Palestinian population of all males by arresting thousands of men and forcing thousands more to flee.3 3
Amnon Kapeliouk Israeli Author and Journalist

Elsewhere, one could find women with their heads blown apart and others rotting together with the garbage surrounded by flies. A Norwegian diplomat, Gunnar Flakstad, said he saw a pile of bodies being taken off in a scoop bulldozer, apparently destined for burial. In the middle of the camp, near some of the worst bodies, was a freshly dug hole covered with red dirt and patted down by a bulldozer. The site is believed to be a mass grave.
New York Times

Nearby the Israelis continued their roundup of suspected Palestinian guerrillas. Israeli troops armed with loudspeakers drove through the Sabra refugee camp and the Fakhani Palestinian quarter and ordered all men to go to the sports stadium with their identification papers for interrogation.
By late afternoon 500 to 600 men were huddled together under several tiers of the stadium awaiting questioning. The men were being provided with food and water, and anyone in need of medical attention was being treated. The wives and sisters of many of those inside stood behind a fence begging reporters, kissing them up and down the arm, if they would only go in and find out about the fate of their husbands, sons or brothers.
The Israeli commander in charge, Col. Naftali Bahiry, said the identification papers of each man would be checked to determine whether or not he was a Palestine Liberation Organization guerrilla who had been ordered to take off his uniform and stay behind in civilian clothes in violation of the withdrawal agreement. The Begin Government says there are some 2,000 such guerrillas still in the camp. Most Are Not P.L.O. Guerrillas
Colonel Bahiry conceded that most of those being detained by the Israelis after questioning were not P.L.O. guerrillas ordered to stay behind, since few of those were apparently being found. Rather they were members of the Palestinian militia, which is made up of older men or school boys and was in charge of providing law and order in the camps.
Those who belonged to the militia are known as Lebanese Palestinians - the Palestinians who have lived in Beirut since 1948 and who unlike the guerrillas did not come here to fight. The militiamen are for the most part students, workers or businessmen who fight only when called upon to protect the camps.
Asked if all the Palestinian fighters being found by the Israelis were simply local militiamen rather than guerrillas ordered to stay behind by Yasir Arafat, the P.L.O. leader, as the Begin Government claimed, Colonel Bahiry stated, ''Oh, much more than half are militiamen.''
As the Palestinian men trudged to the sports stadium for interrogation, many asked reporters if any Phalangists or Haddad men were there, as they had heard of the killings in Shatila. One woman, Badria Muhaid, said she had her father and three brothers inside the sports stadium with the Israelis, but her 15-year-old brother, Marwan, had been taken away Friday night from the Sabra refugee camp by the Phalangists working together with the Israelis. Interrogated by Haddad's Militia
Colonel Bahiry declared the Haddad men and the Phalangists had been ordered out of the area this morning -but it appears to have been a little too late for the residents of Shatila.
According to residents of Shatila and reporters who visited the main street of the camp Friday evening, things were relatively calm in the area. One young boy, who declined to identify himself, said all the men were ordered out of the camp Friday and were divided up near the sports stadium between Lebanese and Palestinians. They were interrogated by members of Major Haddad's militia, which was transported into Beirut by the Israeli Army. Some of the men, he charged, were cut across the cheek when they refused to cooperate in the interrogation.
New York Times


Amos Yaron Charged For Genocide At Sabra & Shatilla
By Professor Francis A. Boyle
30 August, 2013
26. At this same meeting, the Phalangists requested the I.D.F. to provide them with a tractor for use in the camps "to demolish illegal structures." Defendant Yaron has acknowledged in testimony under oath that at the end of the meeting it was "clear" that "the Phalangists could still enter the camps, bring in tractors and do what they wanted ….", and in fact the Phalangists continued to operate unchecked in the camps throughout the night of September 17 and the early morning hours of September 18. I.D.F. forces under the defendant Yaron's command supplied the Phalangists with a tractor from which I.D.F. markings had been removed. During the night and the following morning the Phalangists used tractors and bulldozers to pile up and bury in mass graves the bodies of hundreds of men, women, and children they had killed in the camps.
Francis Anthony Boyle is a professor of international law at the University of Illinois College of Law

"There is further evidence which indicates the extent of Israel's complicity in the massacre. The discovery in one of the camps of an Israeli sergeant's identity tag does not prove that he actually took part in the killing but it is significant that the Israeli army did not allow him to appear before the Israeli Commission of Enquiry. More importantly, the Israelis were prepared to assist their Phalangist allies in a number of different ways: they lent bulldozers so that the killers could bury some of the dead; they fired flares throughout the night of 16 September–at a rate of two a minute according to one Israeli soldier — so that the killers could see what they were doing; worst of all, they prevented civilians from fleeing and forced those who tried back into the camps." –
Mondoweiss

As we continued down the street, we—there was an area that had been part of the camp. And suddenly, there were—there was bulldozers with an Israeli—with a Hebrew letter on it, and it was going back and forth, back and forth. That, I'm sure, turned out to be the mass grave. We were—we kept on walking. Walkie-talkies. We reached the end of the camp, and we turned a corner. This was outside of the camp. They lined us up against a bullet-ridden wall, and they had their rifles ready. And we really thought this is—I mean, it was a firing squad. Suddenly, an Israeli soldier comes running down the street and halts it. I suppose the idea of gunning down foreign health workers was something that was not very appealing to the Israelis. But the fact that they could see this and stop it shows that there was—there was some communication.
Ellen Seigal (eye witness)

"The precise number of victims of the massacre may never be exactly determined. The International Committee of the Red Cross counted 1,500 at the time but by September 22 this count had risen to 2,400. On the following day 350 bodies were uncovered so that the total then ascertained had reached 2,750. Kapeliouk points out that to the number of bodies found after the massacre one should add three categories of victims:
(a) Those buried in mass graves whose number cannot be ascertained because the Lebanese authorities forbade their opening;
(b) Those who were buried under the ruins of houses; and
(c) Those who were taken alive to an unknown destination but never returned.
The precise number of victims of the massacre may never be exactly determined. The International Committee of the Red Cross counted 1,500 at the time but by September 22 this count had risen to 2,400. On the following day 350 bodies were uncovered so that the total then ascertained had reached 2,750. Kapeliouk points out that to the number of bodies found after the massacre one should add three categories of victims:
(a) Those buried in mass graves whose number cannot be ascertained because the Lebanese authorities forbade their opening;
(b) Those who were buried under the ruins of houses; and
(c) Those who were taken alive to an unknown destination but never returned.
The bodies of some of them were found by the side of the roads leading to the south. Kapeliouk asserts that the number of victims may be 3,000 to 3,500, one-quarter of whom were Lebanese, while the remainder were Palestinians."(4)

On September 16, 1982, the Israeli Defense Forces ("IDF") occupying Beirut as a result of Israel's June invasion of Lebanon permitted the Phalangists, a Lebanese Christian militia, to enter the Palestinian refugee camps of Sabra and Shatilla. From approximately 6:00 P.M. September 16 until 8:00 A.M. September 18, the Phalangists, and perhaps other militia, massacred men, women and children including Palestinians, Lebanese, Iranians, Syrians, Pakistanis and Algerians. The exact number of those killed cannot be determined-bodies having been buried in the ruins, deposited in mass graves and carried from the site in truckloads. Estimates of those massacred have ranged from roughly 300 to as many as 3000 people.
The Kahan Report

On Saturday morning, September 18, 1982 Israeli Mossad agents inside the camp actually were observed driving three of the bulldozers in a frantic attempt to assist the Christian militia in covering up evidence of the crime before the exported international media arrived on the scene. The late American journalist, Janet Lee Stevens, documented that during Sept. 18 and 19th, most of the massacre victims killed during this period were slaughtered inside the joint Israeli-Lebanese Forces "interrogation center." Janet testified that these killed were put in flatbed trucks and taken to the Golf Course, just 300 yards away, where waiting Israeli bulldozers dug pits. Other trucks drove in the direction of East Beirut. At the time of her death, seven months later, Janet was preparing her report for publication. This observer packed Janet's belongings and after some wrangling with the US Embassy staff who had arrived on the plane President Ronald Reagan sent to return Janet and the other Americans remains to the US, her two cardboard boxes of papers and research notes were onboard.
29 Years After the Massacre at Sabra Shatila Franklin Lamb    SEPTEMBER 16, 2011 by FRANKLIN LAMB
'Franklin Lamb is a former Assistant Counsel of the US House Judiciary Committee and Professor of International Law at Northwestern College of Law, Portland, Oregon.

Sabra Shatila Timeline
9 July 1982: Sharon announces that he will in a few months time help the Lebanese Phalange militia "clean out" the Palestinian refugee camps of Beirut. The Labor Party daily newspaper, Davar, reports that an Israeli liaison officer then suggests that Israelis should accompany the Phalangists in their "mopping-up" mission. His idea is rejected on the spot, on the grounds that the Phalangists can be expected to commit atrocities, so it would be unwise for the Israeli Army to be personally involved.
21 August 1982: The international community intervenes to end the siege of Beirut. Under the protection of an international force, all PLO fighters are to depart Beirut for Tunis. As this will leave undefended the Palestinian civilians in the Beirut refugee camps of Sabra and Shatila, Yasser Arafat refuses to evacuate the PLO unless the US guarantees their safety. After receiving assurances from Israel, Ronald Reagan's Mid East envoy, Ambassador Phillip Habib, guarantees that the IDF will not enter West Beirut and that Palestinian civilians there will come to no harm. He provides a written assurance to the PLO: The Governments of Lebanon and the United States will provide appropriate guarantees of the safety...of law-abiding Palestinian noncombatants left in Beirut, including the families of those who have departed...The U.S. will provide its guarantees on the basis of assurances received from the Government of Israel and the leaders of certain Lebanese groups with which it has been in contact.
23 August 1982: The Lebanese Parliament elects Israel's protégé, Bashir Gemayel, President of Lebanon. Gemayel is the sworn enemy of the Palestinians. Two months earlier, in an interview published in Le Nouvel Observateur, he declared that in the Middle East, "there is one people too many: the Palestinian people."
(Phalangist threats to massacre the Palestinian refugees in Lebanon have already been widely reported in the Israeli press. When news of Sabra and Shatila breaks, Knesset Member Amnon Rubenstein [Shinui] reports that, during a visit by Israeli parliamentarians to Israeli-occupied south Lebanon, he met members of the Phalangist Party who openly expressed their intention to massacre the Palestinians. One of them told him: "The death of one Palestinian is pollution; the death of all the Palestinians is the solution.")
1 September 1982: Bamahaneh, the IDF's official weekly newspaper, reports that [a] high-ranking Israeli officer heard the following words uttered by a Phalangist officer: 'The question we ask ourselves is: what should we start with? Rape or murder? ... If the Palestinians have any common sense, they should try to leave Beirut. You do not have any idea of the slaughter to befall the Palestinians, civilians or terrorists, who will remain in town. Their attempt to blend into the local population will be futile. The sword and gun of Christian fighters would pursue them everywhere and will exterminate them once and for all.'
1 September 1982: All PLO fighters (15,000 in all) are evacuated from Beirut. The Lebanese authorities urge the multinational protection force to remain in Beirut, to help the Lebanese Army reassert control of West Beirut. Israel intercedes with the US to have the protection force removed immediately.
10 September 1982 – Having received assurances from Ariel Sharon for the safety of Palestinians in West Beirut, multinational forces begin to withdraw from the city.
11 September 1982 – Ariel Sharon announces that 2000 "terrorists" remain in the refugee camps, and that he will have to "clean them out". U.S. Assistant Secretary of State, Nicholas Veliotes, warns that the claim that 2000 fighters remain in Sabra and Shatila is simply a pretext for Israel to seize West Beirut.
12 September 1982 – Ariel Sharon meets with president-elect Gemayel, to coordinate the "cleaning out" of the camps.
13 September 1982 - The last 850 French paratroopers and infantrymen of the Multinational Force leave Beirut, ten days prior to the expiration of their mandate. Israeli Chief of Staff Gen. Rafael Eitan confirms before the Knesset Committee on Foreign Affairs and Defense that PLO forces have evacuated the city and that: "Only a few terrorists and a small PLO office remain in Beirut." (Ha'aretz, September 15, 1982)
14 September 1982 – Bashir Gemayel is assassinated by a remote-controlled bomb at his headquarters. Ariel Sharon informs Gemayel's Phalangist militias that Israel has proof the Palestinians are responsible. (The bombing was actually carried out by Habib Chartouni, an agent of Syrian Intelligence).
14 September 1982, 6:00pm – Ariel Sharon contacts PM Begin. They decide to send the IDF into Muslim West Beirut without informing the Israeli government. (The Israeli government will not find out that its army is occupying Beirut until it finds out the following day from Voice of Israel radio broadcasts).
14 September 1982 - In an interview that Israeli newspaper Ma'ariv will publish on 16 Sept, Israeli Chief of Staff Gen. Rafael Eitan declares: We are going to mop-up West Beirut, gather all the weapons, arrest the terrorists, exactly like we did in Sidon and Tyre and in all other places in Lebanon. We will find all the terrorists and their leaders. We will destroy whatever requires destruction.
14 September 1982, 6:00pm - An officer of Lebanese Internal Security, on duty near Beirut International Airport, notes the beginning of an airlift of Israeli military equipment into the city.
Wednesday 15 September, 1982
00:30am – IDF Major General Amir Drori, commander of Israel's northern region and occupied south Lebanon, receives orders to seize all key points in West Beirut.
03:30am - Israeli Generals Eitan and Drori meet with Fadi Frem, C-in-C of the Phalangist militia and his chief of intelligence, Elie Hobeika [2]. On September 22, Ariel Sharon acknowledges to the Knesset that at this meeting "the principle of Phalangist entry into the refugee camps of Beirut was discussed." At the end of the meeting, one of the Phalangist commanders tells the Israelis: "We have been waiting for this moment, for many years."
05:00am - The Israelis occupy West Beirut, meeting little resistance, but causing great devastation. IDF troops have orders to disarm, in their advance, all Muslim and leftist militias. Colonel Zvi Elpeleg, former Israeli governor of Nabatiyyeh, comments: In Lebanese society, paradoxically, the continuous presence of armed civilians has been an element of equilibrium and mutual deterrence. The entry of Israeli troops into West Beirut has subverted the existing facts. The Israelis have disarmed thousands of citizens, including members of the Shiite movement, Amal. Most of these were simple workers or peasants who bought these weapons with their meager savings for personal defense. These people, therefore, found themselves exposed, at the mercy of the Phalangists. (Ma'ariv, September 26, 1982).
09:00am - Ariel Sharon arrives in Beirut to personally direct the IDF campaign from the Israeli HQ located on the roof of a large building at the Kuwaiti Embassy crossroads, overlooking the city and the Sabra and Shatila camps.
09:00am - The Israeli occupation of West Beirut provokes unanimous protest throughout the world. President Reagan's special envoy, Morris Draper, visits PM Begin in Jerusalem. Begin assures him that Israel's goal in West Beirut is simply to maintain order and prevent "pogroms". He does not mention that Israel intends to allow the Phalangists into the Palestinian camps.
PLO leaders are fearful for the Palestinians left behind in West Beirut, and now under Israeli occupation. They remind the world that they have signed assurances from American envoy Philip Habib guaranteeing the safety of Palestinian civilians after the departure of PLO fighters from Beirut. Farouq Qaddoumi, head of the PLO political department, declares: "We have been given a word of honor that Israel would not enter West Beirut, this promise was broken." Former Lebanese Prime Minister Sa'eb Salam, the intermediary who helped broker the "Habib Agreements", confirms that the Israeli entry into the western part of the city is a violation of the signed accords. Senior State Department officials confirm the view expressed by Sa'eb Salam.
Noon - IDF tanks surround Sabra and Shatila, and Israeli soldiers set up check-points around the camps, allowing them to control all entrances and exits. Anxiety begins to mount among the refugees, who in the past were defended by the now-departed PLO fighters. Most inhabitants lock themselves inside their homes.
Late afternoon/early evening - The IDF launches sporadic shellfire at Sabra and Shatila. Norwegian Doctor Per Maehlumshagen, an orthopaedic surgeon at Gaza Hospital situated to the west of Sabra, treats about fifteen wounded civilians. Other Palestinian wounded, generally victims of sniper fire, arrive the same evening at Akka Hospital, across the road that marks the southern edge of Shatila.
Evening - An Israeli divisional intelligence officer, providing an update briefing on the situation in the camps, reports to the Chief of Staff: "It seems there are no terrorists there, in the camp; Sabra camp is empty." (Kahan Commission Final Report, p. 24).
Thursday 16 September, 1982
08:00am - Gen. Eitan chairs a meeting at Israeli HQ, in which he describes for General Saguy (IDF director of intelligence), a high-ranking representative of the Mossad, and the head of the Shin Bet, the Phalangists' imminent operation in the camps.
Noon - IDF Gen. Drori meets with Fadi Frem, Chief of Staff of the Lebanese Forces, to ascertain whether the Phalangists are ready to enter Sabra and Shatila. Frem responds: "Yes, immediately", and is given permission to proceed.
03:00pm - Brigadier General Amos Yaron (commander of Israeli forces in Beirut) meets Frem and his intelligence chief, Elie Hobeika. Using aerial photographs furnished by the Israelis, they coordinate the details of the Phalangist entry into the camps. Yaron assures the Lebanese that his troops will supply all the necessary assistance "to mop up the terrorists in the camps."
Following the meeting, Gen. Drori calls Ariel Sharon to announce: "Our friends are marching on the camps. We have coordinated their entry." Ariel Sharon replies, "The operation of our friends is approved. Congratulations!" It is not known whether Drori informs Sharon that the Phalangist commanders have told him: ''Bones are going to be broken in the camps." (On October 31, Drori will reveal to the Commission of Inquiry that one of his officers warns him that the Phalangists might massacre the Palestinians).
04:00pm - A Phalangist unit of 150 men, assembled near the airport, begins to move. It advances to the Phalangist HQ at the Kuwaiti Embassy traffic circle. Across the road from the Phalangist HQ, the Israelis set up a command and observation post in an apartment building, which stands 200 meters from one of the massacre sites in Shatila. From the roof of this seven-story building, "it is possible to see into at least part of the Shatila camp, including those parts where piles of dead bodies were found later." (New York Times, September 26, 1982).
Late afternoon - Israeli soldiers manning roadblocks at the entrance of the Shatila camp receive an order by radio to allow the Phalangist forces into the camp at sunset.
05:00pm The Phalangists enter Sabra and Shatila refugee camps. The organized murder of the inhabitants begins immediately, in the Arsal neighborhood of Shatila, across from Israeli headquarters. The Israeli HQ building is seven storeys high and only 200 meters from the major location of the carnage. One Israeli officer says that watching from the roof is like watching "from the front row of a theater."
Evening - Phalangist militiamen murder hundreds of people in the first hours after entry. They shoot everything that moves in the alleys, then break into homes and liquidate whole families at the dinner table, or asleep in bed. In many cases, the victims are dismembered. Infants are killed by having their heads smashed against the walls of their homes. Women and girls are raped before being killed. Most of the victims on the first evening are hacked to death with knives and hatchets (most of the second day's victims will be shot at point-blank range). In some houses, the Phalangists spare the life of a single family member - killing the rest in front of him or her - so the survivor can recount what he lived through and spread terror among the Palestinians.
In the Horsh Tabet area, all 45 members of the Miqdad family are murdered. Some have their throats cut, others are disemboweled, among them a 29 year old woman named Zeinab, who is 8 months pregnant and whose foetus is placed in her arms. Her seven other children are also murdered. Another relative, Wafa Hammoud, 26 years old and in her seventh month of pregnancy, is also killed with her four children. A seven year old daughter of the Miqdad family is raped before being killed. In the same neighborhood, several other women are raped before being murdered, and their naked bodies arranged in the street in the form of a cross.
Evening - Four elderly men from Shatila form a delegation to try to stop the massacre. They are last seen heading south to the Israeli HQ, where they intend to tell the Israelis there are no fighters in the camp, and the civilians wish to surrender. They never arrive, and are found dead near the Kuwaiti Embassy several days later.
07:30pm - The Israeli Cabinet meets in Jerusalem. Cabinet members complain that the government should have been consulted before the IDF was sent into West Beirut, but they agree a draft resolution affirming that the seizure of West Beirut is necessary "in order to forestall the danger of violence, bloodshed and chaos." Defence Minister Sharon mentions in passing that Phalangist forces have entered the refugee camps "in order to clear out terrorist nests." He adds that the contact with the Phalangists is continuing and that their actions are totally coordinated with those of the Israeli Army. Only David Levy, the deputy PM, mentions the possibility that the Phalangists might massacre the Palestinians. The meeting lasts 4 hours. Most of the discussion centers on how to counter U.S. pressure for the IDF to get out of Beirut. The Cabinet devotes less than 5 minutes to the entry of the Phalangists into Sabra and Shatila.
Evening/Night - The Israeli soldiers stationed around the camps' perimeter quickly began to realize that something terrible is happening inside. Two Israeli paratroopers tell correspondent Michael Gerti: On Thursday evening, as darkness fell, Palestinian women from Shatila arrived at the post and hysterically told us that the Phalangists were shooting their children and putting the men in trucks. I reported this to my commander, but all he said was: 'It is okay, do not worry.' My order was to tell the women to go back home. However, many women, and entire families as well, ran away from the camps to the north. I went back and repeated my report over and over. Each time, however, the answer was the same: "It is okay."...It was possible to stop the massacre in Shatila, even on Thursday; had they acted on what we reported to our commander. (Ha'aretz, September 23, 1982).
Evening/Night: A Palestinian resident of Sabra approaches the first Israeli checkpoint to the west of the camp, and tells an Arabic-speaking IDF soldier named Rami what is happening: I told him about meeting a woman wounded in her arm who told me that Sa'ad Haddad's men were killing everyone. The officer asked me if we were armed. I told him that some were armed, but that they only had weapons for personal defense. He told me to announce to the whole population that they must gather these weapons and surrender them before 5 o'clock. As for the massacre, it didn't interest him at all.
Evening/Night: An Israeli nurse gives medical treatment to a wounded nine-month-old baby who has been brought to his medical post by his only-surviving relative. The baby dies. A Phalangist militiaman later sees the baby lying dead and blurts out: "Would you like to get rid of this bundle? I will throw it in the garbage." The nurse testifies that this makes him realize a real carnage is taking place, and he alerts his superiors.
Evening/Night - A militiaman boasts to Israeli soldiers manning a checkpoint: "We have already killed 250 terrorists." One of the soldiers later recalls for journalists that this made the soldiers laugh, and one of them commented: "These [Phalangists] and their exaggerations... How could they have killed 250 terrorists when we have not heard the noise of combat?". The soldier adds, "When he left, we stopped laughing and began to realize that indeed a massacre was unfolding."
10:00pm - Electric power is abruptly cut off in all of West Beirut. Israeli soldiers around the perimeter receive an order to fire illumination flares above Sabra and Shatila, starting at midnight.
11:00pm - News of the massacre begins arriving at the Israeli headquarters from forward command posts near the Shatila camp. They report casualties in the camps, including "terrorists and civilians." The commander of the Phalangist troops in the Shatila camp reports to the Israelis that, "Thus far we have liquidated 300 civilians and terrorists." This report is immediately communicated to Tel Aviv where it is conveyed to more than twenty high-ranking IDF officers.
Night - Israeli troops around the camp fire flares from all directions above Sabra and Shatila. According to one Israeli soldier, his unit fires two 81mm illuminating flares every minute for a duration of several hours. The Israeli Air Force also drops flares to light the camps. International press correspondents based in Beirut see the camps lit up at night, and ask for an explanation from Israeli military spokesmen. The spokesmen don't answer.
Overnight - Casualties pour into the Gaza and Akka Hospitals, bringing news of terrible massacres. At the same time, 1000-2000 civilians, in a state of indescribable panic, seek sanctuary in the hospitals.
Friday 17 September, 1982
01:00am - IDF radio reports from Beirut that "the IDF will not operate tonight to purge the areas of Sabra and Shatila ... It was decided to entrust the Phalange with the mission to carry out these purging operations." The report was rebroadcast at 02:00am, never to be repeated afterward.
Daybreak - Israeli officers and soldiers watch with binoculars what is happening inside the Shatila camp. They can see piles of bodies and men being lined up for execution. Soldiers from an armored unit stationed 100 meters from the camp report that they can see the execution of civilians by the militiamen. Lieutenant Avi Grabowski, deputy commander of an IDF tank company witnesses the Phalangists killing civilians, including women and children. He confronts a Phalangist about killing pregnant women. The Phalangist answers that "pregnant women will give birth to terrorists." Israeli soldiers who report Phalangist atrocities against civilians to their superiors are ordered not to interfere with what is happening in the camps and not to enter the area. When Grabowski reports to his battalion commander, he is told: "We know, it's not to our liking, and don't interfere."
05:30am - Lieutenant Colonel Moshe Hevroni, the bureau chief at IDF General Staff HQ in Tel Aviv, receives a report indicating that 300 casualties are reported in the camps. At 07:30am, he passes this information to Avi Duda'i, a personal aide to Defense Minister Sharon.
On 22 September, Sharon will inform the Knesset: Once the first rumors reached us as to what was occurring in the camps, the northern commander [General Drori] immediately took certain measures to halt the activities of the Phalangists in Shatila... [The IDF] put an end to Phalangist activity as early as Friday around noon. We eventually evacuated them from the area by Saturday noon. This is not true. Throughout Friday, fresh Phalangist troops are admitted into the camps, bringing the total number of assailants up to about 400. The rampage continues all day Friday, with the approval of the IDF (see entry for 04:30pm, below). It is not until 10:00am on Saturday that the massacre finally stops.
Morning - Upon hearing the news that the IDF has entered West Beirut, some Israelis express the fear that this new offensive might be followed by a massacre of Palestinians and the destruction of their camps. A statement from former MK Uri Avneri, appears in this morning's Israeli press, accusing Ariel Sharon of seeking to destroy the refugee camps of West Beirut under the guise of a military operation.
08:00am - Several foreign journalists try to enter the camps, after hearing alarming rumors about what is going on inside. Roy Wilkinson of Newsweek, is stopped from going in by IDF soldiers and Phalangists manning a roadblock. While Wilkinson is talking to the soldiers, a militiaman rushes to the roadblock and announces he had found "an old man." He receives orders to shoot the man. An Israeli officer named Elie explains to Wilkinson that Israeli forces have been ordered not to disturb the militias who are "mopping up the area."(Newsweek, October 4, 1982).
Morning - Additional Phalangist troops enter Shatila through the southern and western entrances. They are equipped with jeeps, trucks, and three bulldozers (at least one of which has been supplied by the IDF, after having its identification removed). The bulldozers will be used for home demolitions and for the preparation of mass graves.
Morning - Phalangist militiamen escort foreign medical personnel from the Akka Hospital, and deliver them into the care of the ICRC. The evacuated medical staff alert the press and the diplomatic corps to the grave developments in the camps.
Between 11:00am and noon - Armed militiamen arrive at Akka Hospital. They murder several of the wounded in their beds, and kill camp residents who have been seeking sanctuary at the hospital. Forty of the people sheltering in the hospital are forced into a truck, and driven away. They are never accounted for. Militiamen also murder two Palestinian doctors, Ali Othman and Sami Khatib, and an Egyptian staff member. A 19-year-old Palestinian nurse named Intisar Ismail is raped by about ten men, then killed. A Lebanese colleague can identify her mutiliated body only because he recognises a ring on her hand.
11:00am - Gen. Amos Yaron reports to Gen. Amir Drori from Israeli HQ overlooking the camps that rumors of "irregular activity" by the Phalangists in the camps are getting more and more persistent. Yaron tells the Phalangist liaison officer at Israeli HQ that the Phalangists must cease firing immediately. But he does not order them to vacate the camps, nor does he verify whether the cease-fire order is being implemented, or send IDF troops to the camp to determine what is happening.
12:00am - Gen. Drori reports to Chief of Staff Rafael Eitan in Tel Aviv that something "suspicious" is taking place in the camps. Eitan leaves Tel Aviv for Beirut, arriving at 03:30pm.
Shortly after noon - Militiamen gather about one hundred men on the main road south of Shatila. After separating Palestinians from Lebanese, they begin torturing the former by slashing their faces with knives and interrogating them.
Late morning/Early afternoon - Additional Phalangist troops gather by Beirut International Airport. The military correspondent of Israeli television, Ron Ben-Yishai, asks their commander where they are going. The commander replies: "Military mission." Ben-Yishai notes that the Phalangist convoy includes 13 tanks, half-tracks equipped with 120mm mortars, vehicles armed with heavy machineguns and many "command cars." He also observes that the soldiers combat gear, even their uniforms, have been supplied by the IDF: the Phalangists have simply replaced the inscription "Tzahal" (i.e. IDF) with the words "Lebanese Forces."
While awaiting for orders, the Phalangists are unambiguous about their mission, boasting: "We are going to kill them", and "We are going to f*ck their mothers and sisters." Eventually, the Phalangist column departs north along the airport road, and enters Shatila from the south and east.
04:30pm - Accompanied by Gen. Drori and Gen. Yaron, Gen Eitan meets Phalangist officers (including Fadi Frem) at Lebanese Forces HQ. According to the testimony of Gen. Yaron, Gen. Eitan congratulates the Phalangists on their operation. The Phalangists report that they have been "mopping up" the area. They complain that the Americans are pressuring them "to stop their operations in the camps," and appeal to the Israelis for "additional time to clean up the grounds." The two parties agree that, "All the Phalangists will leave the refugee camps on Saturday morning, the 18th of September". Until then, the Phalangists continue their "mopping up" operations.
According to the summary made by the Mossad representative at the meeting, Chief of Staff Eitan acknowledges that the Phalangists are mopping up "empty camps", i.e. empty of "terrorists". (Kahan Commission Final Report, p.37)
Throughout The Day - Access to the camp is blocked by Israeli soldiers, who repeatedly order fleeing refugees to turn back. During the afternoon, a crowd of 500 refugees sheltering in the Gaza Hospital in Sabra hear that the Phalangists are attacking the hospitals. Brandishing white flags, the crowd tries to escape the camp, but when they reach Beirut's main east-west thoroughfare, Corniche el-Mazra'a, they are stopped by Israeli soldiers. A spokesman for the group explains to the soldiers that Sa'ad Haddad's men are murdering civilians, but the soldiers order them back to the camp. When they hesitate, an Israeli tank chases them several hundred feet back toward the camps. (New York Times, September 26, 1982).
Throughout The Day - Phalangist units prepare mass graves for hundreds of the scattered corpses. Bulldozers dig one of the mass graves halfway between an Israeli position and IDF headquarters.
Throughout The Day - Eyewitnesses report that truckloads of civilians are being deported to unknown locations. A Danish TV cameraman, M. Petersen, actually films the militiamen loading men, women and children aboard such trucks on the edge of Shatila, just 400 meters from an Israeli position. Residents of the Lebanese villages of Shweifat and Hadath, south of Beirut, confirm that at noon on Friday, three large trucks and two smaller vehicles loaded with civilians pass through their area. None of the people loaded onto trucks will ever be accounted for.
08:00pm - Israeli TV correspondent Ron Ben-Yishai overhears a group of officers from a tank battalion surrounding Shatila say that a soldier and an officer from their unit has watched camp residents being lined up against the wall and summarily executed. They mentioned many "horrors," including the case of one resident who was killed with a shot to the head for refusing to follow the militiamen. The officers continue to discuss events in the camps throughout the rest of the evening. At 11:30pm, the correspondent tells them: "If you are certain of what you are describing; I will call the Minister of Defense." Ben-Yishai calls Sharon at his farm, and tells him: "Something must be done immediately to put an end to this ... IDF soldiers have witnessed executions and murders... In a few hours, the entire world press will know the news, and then we'll be in a big mess." Ben-Yishai states afterwards: "Sharon hardly spoke. We greeted each other on the Jewish New Year and hung up. My impression is that he was rather aware of the developments in the camps."
Saturday 18 September, 1982
06:00am - A group of militiamen with bullhorns call upon the surviving residents to come out of their homes and shelters, assuring them they will not be harmed. As many as 1,000 bewildered survivors - mostly elderly people, women and children - gather in Shatila's main street (Abu Hassan Salameh Street), carrying white flags and Lebanese flags. The militiamen march them at gunpoint south along the street, intermittently selecting out small groups of people who are stood up against the wall of the nearest house and shot. A bulldozer then demolishes each house to hide the bodies under the rubble. Near the camp entrance, Phalangists separate Palestinians from Lebanese citizens. Some Palestinians are taken away in small groups; often, the noise of sustained gunfire is heard, just after a group disappears from sight. Other Palestinians are forced onto trucks parked in front of the Kuwaiti Embassy, and driven away. People taken by the militiamen will never be seen again.
Between 06:00am and 07:00am - Seven Phalangist militiamen come to Gaza Hospital in the northern part of Sabra. They order the medical staff (22 doctors and nurses; mostly internationals, but also including 2 Palestinians) to gather by the entrance. The militiamen check the nationalities of the medical staff, over the objections of a Norwegian physician, Dr. Per Maehlumshagen. A Palestinian male nurse is dragged out of the line and murdered. A Palestinian colleague and a Syrian staff member are also shot. The rest of the medical team is marched down the main street of Shatila Phalangist headquarters near the Kuwaiti Embassy traffic circle. The militiamen harangue them as "Communist scum" and "people who help our enemies". Israeli HQ is located across the street from Phalangist HQ; Israeli Gen. Amos Yaron sees the mistreatment of the internationals, and orders their release.
08:00am - General Amos Yaron observes the remnants of the crowd of most elderly people, women and children, who were gathered at the camp entrance at 06:00am. He announces that the women and children may leave. The men are taken to the nearby Camille Chamoun Sports Stadium for interrogation by the Israelis, who warn them that they must "reveal terrorist hideouts" because, "If you do not tell us the truth, you know that the Phalangists and Sa'ad Haddad's men are here!". Twenty-eight dead prisoners are subsequently found in the sports stadium, their hands tied behind their backs.
Early Morning - U.S. special envoy, Morris Draper (deputy to Phillip Habib), demands of the Israeli Foreign Ministry: You must stop the massacres. They are obscene. I have an officer in the camp counting the bodies. You ought to be ashamed. The situation is rotten and terrible. They are killing children. You are in absolute control of the area and therefore responsible for that area. (Testimony of Israeli FM official Bruce Kashdan to the Kahan Commission of Inquiry; cited in the LA Times, 22 Nov 1982).
10:00am - Israeli tanks approach the main gate of Shatila. Militiamen of the Lebanese Forces get into their vehicles, evacuate the camps, and return to their bases. The camps are silent. Survivors begin to emerge, and to search through the rubble for members of their families.
10:00am - Journalist Robert Fisk and two colleagues are driving past Shatila when they notice an overwhelming smell. They enter the camp, and find dazed survivors and dead refugees in every alley. (Read part of their description). Fisk climbs onto an earthen wall to survey the scene. It shifts beneath his feet, and he realises he is not standing on a wall but on a hurriedly-covered mound of bodies. He falls, and finds himself face to face with the head of a child whose lower jaw has been hacked off. Fisk returns to his bureau to file a report on what he has seen. His editor will not allow him to use the word "massacre" to describe the actions of "our" side.
Noon - Terrorized survivors have left the camps and spread word of what has happened. American and European journalists and diplomats arrive at the camps and discover hundreds of scattered bodies and mangled limbs. A group including the French Ambassador finds a mother hugging her baby in her arms, both shot with a bullet in the head; naked women with their feet and wrists tied behind them; a baby whose head has been crushed, lying in a pool of blood with a milk-feeding bottle next to him; and the mutilated parts of a baby carefully arranged in a circle with the head neatly placed on top.
Foreign correspondents file their first reports. Their reports and pictures have a huge impact worldwide.
Morning - Lebanese Army soldiers and Red Cross rescue workers begin recovering bodies from the rubble. Recovery operations cease after a couple of days, because of the advanced decomposition of the bodies, leaving many of the demolished homes unsearched.
Journalists interview Israeli troops, who say they saw and heard nothing, or say nothing at all. The military correspondent of Ma'arivwrites: "I have never seen our soldiers so silent throughout this war... They listened to our questions, but did not answer". However, some Phalangists are happy to be interviewed. One officer tells a U.S. journalist: "We have waited for years to be able to enter the camps of West Beirut. The Israelis chose us because we are better than they at this kind of house-to-house operation." When the journalist asks him if they had taken any prisoners, he responds: "This is not the kind of operation in which prisoners are taken."
Noon - The Israeli government tries to distance itself from any responsibility in its first official statement: "We do not know anything about these alleged massacres. There is no Israeli presence in the camps themselves. We do not know what is happening in these camps."
08:00pm Voice of Israel Radio reports that "Phalangists entered the vicinity of Shatila yesterday. On their way out they reported to Israeli forces that fierce fighting took place resulting in casualties on both sides. The army intervened to put an end to the hostilities. Instead of reproaching our armed forces we should rather congratulate them for intervening, belatedly, but in a situation where they did not have to intervene, thus preventing a much larger tragedy...."
Midnight - The Israeli Foreign Ministry states that "Israel condemns the massacre", and again maintains that the IDF's only involvement was to stop the Phalangists. But international correspondents reporting to a worldwide audience raise the questions that the Israeli government studiously avoids: such as how could the Phalangists get into the camp, when all of West Beirut was under Israeli occupation, and every entrance to Sabra and Shatila guarded by an IDF checkpoint? And how could the IDF be unaware of a 40-hour massacre taking place before their eyes?
In the United States, President Reagan attributes to Israel a large share of the responsibility for the massacre. A high-ranking American official confirms that the US "would be extremely surprised if Israel was really unaware of what happened in the camps... Israeli forces evidently controlled the whole sector where the massacres occurred."
Throughout the day - In the rest of West Beirut, the IDF continues to arrest and interrogate "terrorist suspects", as if nothing had happened. It picks up 1,000 suspects and takes them for interrogation at the Sports Stadium adjoining Sabra.
Night - By nightfall, the camps are deserted. Surviving residents are too terrified to stay overnight. For the following week, they sleep in the parks and schools of West Beirut.
Sunday September 19, 1982
Morning - US diplomats in Tel Aviv reveal that Lebanese intermediaries who negotiated the evacuation of the PLO from Beirut had repeatedly expressed their fear of a Phalangist massacre of camp residents, but that US envoy Philip Habib and his deputy Morris Draper had assured them that they had a "firm and clear commitment" from representatives of the Israeli government and military that such a massacre would not occur. "Now, we feel that by trusting Israeli promises, we have abandoned the Palestinian residents of the camps to their fate," the diplomats add. Ha'aretz quotes one of the diplomats: "They [the Palestinians] have placed their confidence in us. And we placed our trust in you [Israel]. Now we realize our mistake, but it is too late."
Late Morning - One thousand Israeli demonstrators gather outside PM Begin's residence. They chant "Begin is a murderer. Beirut-Deir Yassin 1982" [3] and ''Down with Sharon, the butcher of Qibya."[4].
Throughout the day. Medical and rescue teams continue retrieving and burying corpses. The body count is inexact. Israel estimates that 700-800 people were killed. French-Israeli journalist, Amnon Kapeliouk, who compiled the first reconstruction of the massacre based on eyewitness testimony, suggests that this is a minimization of the death toll. He notes that the Lebanese authorities recorded 762 bodies buried or cremated by the Red Cross, and about 1200 bodies claimed by family members for private burial, for a total of about 2,000 dead.
Kapeliouk also notes that this number does not include those victims - he suggests in the low hundreds - bulldozed into mass graves during the assault. (The Lebanese authorities did not allow the exacavation of known or suspected mass grave sites, for fear of reigniting Lebanon's sectarian hatreds. They failed to hold a serious investigation into the massacre, for the same reason). Nor do the official figures account for those - again, possibly in the low hundreds - who remained buried under the rubble of destroyed homes after recovery efforts were abandoned due to advanced decomposition of the bodies.
The Lebanese official total also does not include those (in the high hundreds?) who were seen by multiple eyewitnesses being loaded onto trucks and driven away by the Phalangists. A few of the bodies of these missing people, apparently thrown from the trucks, were later discovered along the roads runnning south through the villages of Ouzai, Khalde, Haret el-Naimeh, and Kafr Shima. Other bodies were found on the Airport Road. But the majority were never recovered. American diplomats told the NY Times that they were feared massacred in southern Lebanon. (It is possible that some lie under the new stadium built on the ruins of Camille Chamoun Sports Stadium. And, according to the UK's Independent newspaper, some dozens are also buried near the Lebanese town of Jounieh [5]).
Kapeliouk concludes that, bearing in mind all these factors, it is probable that "between 3,000-3,500 men, women and children were massacred within 48 hours between September 16 and 18, 1982". About three-quarters of the dead were Palestinians, the remainder were Lebanese citizens. Nine of the dead were Jews, who had married Palestinians in the Mandate period, and had chosen to go into exile with them when they were expelled from their homes in Galilee in 1948.
Early Evening - Gen. Eitan holds a press conference in Beirut, and denies any responsibility for the atrocities. He blames the Phalangists and, indirectly, the Lebanese Army and the Americans.
10:00pm - In a special session of the Israeli Cabinet, PM Begin insists that suggestions of Israeli culpability are anti-Semitic, saying: "Goyim killing other goyim, and they accuse the Jews!" Begin refuses to hold a commission of inquiry, as this will be interpreted as "as an admission of guilt" in what is purely "an internal Lebanese affair." The Cabinet adopts and releases a statement absolving Israel of any responsibility; it raises again the fiction that the PLO left behind in the camps "2,000 terrorists" [6], and maintains that accusations of Israeli responsibility are a slanderous "blood libel".
Monday 20 September, 1982
Morning - Two trucks arrive at Shatila, bringing Lebanese soldiers to help with burials. Their bright green uniforms are reminiscent of the Lebanese militias'. Hundreds of panic-stricken survivors stampede northward out of the camp, believing that the militiamen have returned to finish them off.
Morning - The Israeli public and press do not believe their government's denials of involvement. Under the frontpage heading, "War Crime in Beirut", Ha'aretz's military correspondent Ze'ev Schiff reports: A war crime has been committed in the refugee camps of Beirut. The Phalangists have killed hundreds, if not more, of elderly people, women and children, exactly in the same fashion pogroms were carried out against Jews. It is not true, as claimed by official spokesmen that we didn't learn of this crime until Saturday at noon after receiving reports filed by foreign correspondents stationed in Beirut. I personally heard about it on Friday morning. I brought all my information to the attention of a senior official who took immediate action. In other words, the massacre began Thursday evening, and what I learned on Friday morning was certainly known to others before me.
Ha'aretz also publishes a statement by the Israeli Committee Against the War in Lebanon: Those who invaded Lebanon, those who ordered the Israeli Army to enter West Beirut, those who allied themselves with Phalangist murderers and helped them to enter the refugee camps - those are the ones responsible for the massacre of Palestinians. Those who disarmed the residents of West Beirut and delivered them to their enemies - they are the ones responsible for the massacre. Those who made the decision to 'establish order in Beirut,' are the ones responsible for the massacre committed by the 'guardians' they appointed. Begin, Sharon, and Eitan are fully responsible for the assassination of hundreds of elderly people, women and children.
Yosef Burg, Israel's interior minister, echoes Begin's defense, saying: "Christians killed Muslims; how are the Jews responsible?" Novelist Yitzhak Smilanski tells him ironically: We have released famished lions into the arena. They devoured the people; therefore, the lions are the guilty party who devoured the men, aren't they? Who could have foreseen, when we opened the door and let them in that these lions would devour the people?
Writing in Ha'olam Ha'ze, Yeshayahu Leibovitz (professor of Philosophy at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem) comments: The massacre was done by us. The Phalangists are our mercenaries, exactly as the Ukrainians and the Croatians and the Slovakians were the mercenaries of Hitler, who organised them as soldiers to do the work for him. Even so have we organized the assassins in Lebanon in order to murder the Palestinians.
In the same publication, Israeli novelist A. B. Yehoshua comments: What can one say? Even if I could believe that IDF soldiers who stood at a distance of 100 meters from the camps did not know what happened, then this would be the same lack of knowledge of the Germans who stood outside Buchenwald and Treblinka and did not know what was happening! We too did not want to know.
22 September 1982 - The Israeli General Command holds a meeting, in which Chief of Staff Eitan sets aside five minutes on the agenda to discuss "events in Sabra and Shatila." No one says a word.
22 September 1982 -In Shatila camp, correspondents find a Palestinian woman pacing back and forth near a mass grave which contains thirteen members of her family, including a 4 month-old baby. Finally she stops, sits on the ground, throws dirt over her head, and asks: "But where do I go now?"
23 September 1982 - A Gallup poll, based on interviews with 1700 people, shows that 60 percent of Israelis considered their government responsible, in one way or another, for the Beirut massacre. (Published in Ha'aretz, September 23, 1982).
25 September 1982 - Public protests against the government escalate in Israel, culminating in a demonstration in Tel Aviv by 400,000 people. (The largest demonstration in Israel's history).
28 September 1982 - PM Begin reverses himself, and accepts the appointment of a limited commission of inquiry. (The Kahan Commission)
16 December 1982 - The UN formally declares the Sabra and Shatila massacres "an act of genocide." As a signatory to both the Geneva Conventions and the Genocide Convention, Israel is legally bound to arrest and try any of its citizens directly or indirectly involved in the slaughter.
8 February 1983 - The Kahan Commission clears Israel of involvement in planning and carrying out the murders at Sabra and Shatila. It concludes however that Ariel Sharon bears "personal responsibility" for the killings, and recommends that he resign as Defence Minister. Sharon is forced to resign, but PM Begin retains him in the government as a Minister without Portfolio, and appoints him to two important Ministerial Committees (on Negotiations with Lebanon, and on Security).
The Commission also recommends that Gen. Yaron, who knew of the killings on the first evening they began but did nothing, should be relieved of field command for three years. Instead, PM Begin promotes him to Head of IDF Manpower and Training.
The Commission makes no recommendations about Chief of Staff Eitan, who allowed the Phalangists extra "mopping-up" time even when he knew a massacre was underway, on the grounds that he is due to retire from the IDF soon anyway.
6 February 2001 - Ariel Sharon is elected Prime Minister of Israel. He will be invited to the White House as a guest of the Bush Administration more often than any other world leader. In contrast, the Adminstration will boycott Palestinian President, Yasser Arafat.
17 June 2001 - British journalist Feargal Keane asks PM Ariel Sharon if he would apologise for the tragedy of Sabra and Shatila. Sharon replies: "Apologize for what?"
19 April 2002 - In the midst of the IDF's invasion and re-occupation of the Palestinian West Bank cities, President Bush describes PM Sharon as "A man of peace".
24 June 2002 - President Bush insists that the Palestinians must choose a new leader, on the grounds that Arafat is "tainted by terror".
Hopefully, anyone who has read this far, through the whole sordid episode of Sabra and Shatila, will have a better appreciation now of why most of the world rolls its eyes when our President lauds the Israeli PM as a "man of peace", but labels the Palestinian leader a "terrorist". Because the other 95% of the world understands that terrorism is not terrorism only when it is committed by Muslims or Arabs, and that the politically-motivated murder of about 3,000 U.S. civilians in New York and Washington DC on September 11, 2001 is a despicable act, but no more despicable than the conveniently-forgotten politically-motivated murder of about 3,000 Palestinian civilians in Sabra and Shatila on 16-18 September 1982.
Journalist Diane Mason writing as ' Lawrence of Cyberia

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 04:06 AM

Now then J.I.M. tell us all exactly what it is that I have "denied".

You have made categoric statements about the 1982 massacres in Beirut and they have been challenged. In response you, as you always do when challenged, produce reams of what you "think" is "evidence" riddled through and through with contradictory, conflicting statements to support your usual over-emotive claptrap. On investigation we find that these "eye-witnesses" you are so fond of actually saw nothing.

I also pointed out to you that in the wake of the "supposed" massacre at Jenin there were clear parallels and similarities in the "eye-witness" accounts for both Sabra-Shatila and the Jenin massacres, and we all know for certain that the Jenin massacre did not happen because with the exception of one person all those supposedly killed turned up alive and well, same as those doctors and nurses did in Beirut in 1982 that one of your "eye-witnesses" claimed she saw executed.

You have been asked to substantiate your claim that 3,500 people were killed and you have singularly failed to do so. Your story has changed so many times it is getting hard to keep up. You've got Israeli bulldozers digging mass graves in God knows how many places but no bodies subsequently found even although at one of those locations massive reconstruction work involving extensive ground works uncovered nothing - not one single body - and there should have been at least one shouldn't there J.I.M. according to another of your "eye-witnesses".

By the way J.I.M. an example of demonstrating the art of being inarticulate:

Jim Carroll - 24 Sep 16 - 10:51 AM

"I was reading it the other day when I was confirming that you were twelling lies about my "secret Graves".
No mass graves were looked for, which is the point of Fisk's artificial"

Twelling??

Fisk's artificial what?

Perhaps you should start taking more water with it, or better still engage your brain before you type anything.

Old saying Jom - "People in glass houses should not throw stones"

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 03:13 AM

"C'mon J.I.M. tell us all about the Jenin Massacre "
Why?
Nothing to do with anything here.
I've told you about Sabra-Shatila and you he#ave responded by denying everything.
You really shouldn't post so close after closing time - you are even more inarticulate than you are when sober.
Thank you for using my initials, by the way - a step in the right direction
One day at a time, as they say
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 01:52 AM

Guardian 9 hours ago,

"Head of Jewish Labour group: party is in crisis over antisemitism"

""Is there a crisis in terms of the relationship between the Jewish community and the Labour party?" Newmark asked a packed crowd at Momentum's The World Transformed, a fringe conference running in Liverpool at the same time as Labour's official annual gathering.

"The last poll on Jewish support for Labour showed it was somewhere between 7.6% and 8%," he continued. "Some of you may welcome that news. But to me that statistic is a crisis. That statistic is what needs to be addressed.

"You can mock it, you can deny it, you can misquote surveys and statistics. But at the end of the day, you're only kidding yourself."

He continued: "If you don't believe it's a statistic that needs to be addressed, the message you're sending out to my community is you don't care about that relationship and that Jews are not welcome in this party.""
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/25/head-of-jewish-labour-group-party-is-in-crisis-over-antisemitism

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Sep 16 - 02:40 PM

Also the MV Marmara.
Nurses on board claimed to have witnessed Israelis throwing bodies over, but everyone was accounted for.
If they are sensible, eye witnesses say what the militants tell them to say, but it takes time to get the stories straight.

No such witnesses came forward in the immediate aftermath, but there were plenty when Fiske returned later.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Sep 16 - 12:09 PM

C'mon J.I.M. tell us all about the Jenin Massacre - that never happened - you can turn up equally non-convincing and contradictory eue-witness accounts to that non-event.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Sep 16 - 11:51 AM

Jim, none of the stuff you have produced is evidence.
The eye witness who reported doctors from the Gaza hospital being slaughtered was lying. None were. all were accounted for.

Your "Kahan Commission Assessment" was no such thing. It is not in the report.

From your NY Times piece,
"Residents of the Shatila camp said no Israeli soldiers were directly involved in the killings. " http://www.nytimes.com/1982/09/19/world/christian-militiamen-accused-massacre-beirut-camps-us-says-toll-least-300.html?pagewanted=all

Eye witness account given to the

Given to who? Fiske?
Anyway, it did not appear until 19 years after the event! No eye witnesses reported any such nonsense to him at the time.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/another-war-on-terror-another-proxy-army-another-mysterious-massacre-and-now-after-19-years-perhaps-9255784.html

The IDF assisted in the burial of the corpses using bulldozers - confirmed by Israeli historian Benny Morris, who went on to say it was done in order to conceal the enormity of the massacre.

No he did not. He has stated that Israelis did not collude in any way, so he would not have put that in his book (which I have ordered from the library).

The ICRC buried the bodies and reported no illicit movement or burial of bodies.

Ang Swee Chai was with Siegel and saw no more than her.
She reports things that she did not witness.
She reported nurses raped and killed in another Beirut hospital, but it never happened. It was just a rumour. She reported the Jenin massacre as if it really happened.

There is nothing to contradict the Israel version, which is that of Kahan.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Sep 16 - 10:53 AM

On second thoughts, don't bother
I think I've knocked down enough of your skittles, don't you?
By-ee
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Sep 16 - 10:21 AM

"Love the way J.I.M. refuses to put dates or a time line to any of his hobby-horses."
Love the way you refuse to present evidence for your claims
Come back whn you decide to change the habit if a lifetime
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Sep 16 - 09:53 AM

Love the way J.I.M. refuses to put dates or a time line to any of his hobby-horses. While enlightening us on the politics of Lebanon he omits to tell us that from 1976 until 2005 much of the Lebanon was occupied by Syrian troops and they dictated what went on - are you seriously trying to tell us J.I.M. that the Syrians wished to protect Israel's reputation?

Trouble with all this "evidence" you keep producing J.I.M. is that it is contradictory and on investigation one discovers that the witnesses actually didn't see anything, they are repeating stories told by others. No-one was killed after 08:00hrs on the morning of 18th September 1982, and it was only after 08:00hrs on the morning of the 18th September 1982 that people were asked to go to the Sports Stadium where they were given medical attention if needed, food and water.

It was the IRCR who collected the bodies of the dead not the IDF.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Sep 16 - 07:06 AM

By the way
"and amongst a population that would delight in producing evidence"
L
"Lebanese are also quick to point fingers at the Palestinians for the cross-border attacks on northern Israel after 1969. After these raids prompted the Israelis to invade Lebanon in 1982, the situation reversed and Palestinian refugees went from being a political threat to being targets for violence by Christian right-wing militias, notably in the Sabra and Shatila camps."
From The Middle East Quarterly, The Middle East Forum "Promoting American Interests"
Because of this reasoning, the Lebanese Authorities refused permission to excavate the site immediately after the massacre and have done so ever since
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Sep 16 - 06:54 AM

"They went into the area and took away about 18 young people, while confining us – men, women and children – to the camp. I saw my brothers and some children among the men they took away. While we were walking, we saw people who had been killed with axes. Among them were doctors from Gaza hospital. They lined them up and slaughtered them; then they started shooting at us and killed a large number of people, including 18 of our neighbours' sons. While they were shooting, the whole camp was surrounded by Israeli tanks and all the diggers were Israeli. An Israeli patrol presented itself to us and asked us to go to the Sports Centre. The men went, while we women were taken to the Kuwaiti embassy. That's how we saw them loading the young people into the cars. Among those young people was my brother. They blindfolded them and they loaded my brother in the car. That's how he disappeared and I have never seen him again since." Bahija Zrein (3)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Sep 16 - 06:30 AM

You have the evidence - you choose to deny it.
You present the claims of the accused and dismiss that of eye witnesses, journalists and researchers.
To use your own nastiness - I have no idea how old you are as you choose to hide behind your anonymity. but, for the sake of justice and logic, I hope to god that you are never called for jury service.
WHERE IS YOUR EVIDENCE?
I say nothing - I have given many researched and documented statements and full articles.
WHERE ARE YOURS - YOU CONTINUE YOU MAKE UP "FACTS" AND PRODUCE NOTHING
Some more
"08:00am - General Amos Yaron observes the remnants of the crowd of most elderly people, women and children, who were gathered at the camp entrance at 06:00am. He announces that the women and children may leave. The men are taken to the nearby Camille Chamoun Sports Stadium for interrogation by the Israelis, who warn them that they must "reveal terrorist hideouts" because, "If you do not tell us the truth, you know that the Phalangists and Sa'ad Haddad's men are here!". Twenty-eight dead prisoners are subsequently found in the sports stadium, their hands tied behind their backs.
Diane Mason, journalist and researcher
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Sep 16 - 06:12 AM

"Mrs Sersawi, three months pregnant, saw her husband Hassan, 30, and her Egyptian brother-in-law Faraj el-Sayed Ahmed standing in the crowd of men. "We were told to walk up the road towards the Kuwaiti embassy ...............There were several hundred of us. When we got to the Cite Sportif,

Which one is it J.I.M. - the Kuwaiti Embassy or the Camille Chamoun Stadium? Or was the Citie Sportif the Kuwaiti Embassy? The Stadium was mined by the Palestinians? When were those mines cleared and by whom?

You don't really question much do you J.I.M.? I suppose as long as the narrative feeds your bigotry and bias you don't really give a damn.

Loren Jenkins of The Washington Post, Paul Eedle of Reuters - where are their reports of the hundreds killed in the Citie Sportif? Your account states that they were there their presence and appearance being mistaken as Shin Beth Operatives?

You've got bulldozers digging mass graves here, there and everywhere and yet no mass graves have ever been found in a city and amongst a population that would delight in producing evidence with which to confront the Israelis - but none have been found in the years since the IDF pulled out of Beirut.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Sep 16 - 05:29 AM

"Here is what the Kahan Commission found:"
That would be the enquiry set up by the Israeli Government to defend it's actios asnd those of the army
Must be true then!!
Who to believe, eh?
Jim Carroll
Eye witness account given to the
"The Lebanese Forces militia [Phalangists] had taken us from our homes and marched us up to the entrance to the camp where a large hole had been dug in the earth. The men were told to get into it. Then the militiamen shot a Palestinian. The women and children had climbed over bodies to reach this spot, but we were truly shocked by seeing this man killed in front of us and there was a roar of shouting and screams from the women. That's when we heard the Israelis on loudspeakers shouting, 'Give us the men, give us the men.' We thought, 'Thank God, they will save us.'" It was to prove a cruelly false hope.
The evidence centres on the Camille Chamoun Sports Stadium– the "Cite Sportif". Only two miles from Beirut airport, the damaged stadium was a natural holding centre for prisoners. It had been an ammunition dump for Yasser Arafat's PLO and repeatedly bombed by Israeli jets during the 1982 siege of Beirut so that its giant, smashed exterior looked like a nightmare denture. The Palestinians had earlier mined its cavernous interior, but its vast, underground storage space and athletics changing-rooms remained intact. It was a familiar landmark to all of us who lived in Beirut. At mid-morning on 18 September 1982–about the time Sana Sersawi says she was brought to the stadium–I saw hundreds of Palestinian and Lebanese prisoners, probably well over 1,000, sitting in its gloomy, dark interior, squatting in the dust, watched over by Israeli soldiers and plain-clothes Shin Beth (Israeli secret service) agents and men who I suspected were Lebanese collaborators. The men sat in silence, obviously in fear. From time to time, I noted, a few were taken away. They were put into Israeli army trucks or jeeps or Phalangist vehicles–for further "interrogation".

Nor did I doubt this. A few hundred metres away, inside the Sabra and Chatila Palestinian refugee camps, up to 600 massacre victims rotted in the sun, the stench of decomposition drifting over the prisoners and their captors alike. It was suffocatingly hot. Loren Jenkins of The Washington Post, Paul Eedle of Reuters and I had only got into the cells because the Israelis assumed–given our Western appearance–that we must have been members of Shin Beth. Many of the prisoners had their heads bowed. But Israel's Phalangist militiamen–still raging at the murder of their leader and president elect Bashir Gemayel–had been withdrawn from the camps, their slaughter over, and at least the Israeli army was now in charge. So what did these men have to fear?
Mrs Sersawi, three months pregnant, saw her husband Hassan, 30, and her Egyptian brother-in-law Faraj el-Sayed Ahmed standing in the crowd of men. "We were told to walk up the road towards the Kuwaiti embassy, the women and children in front, the men behind. We had been separated. There were Phalangist militiamen and Israeli soldiers walking alongside us. I could still see Hassan and Faraj. It was like a parade. There were several hundred of us. When we got to the Cite Sportif, the Israelis put us women in a big concrete room and the men were taken to another side of the stadium. There were a lot of men from the camp and I could no longer see my husband. The Israelis went round saying 'Sit, sit.' It was 11am. An hour later, we were told to leave. But we stood around outside amid the Israeli soldiers, waiting for our men."
Sana Sersawi waited in the bright, sweltering sun for Hassan and Faraj to emerge. "Some men came out, none of them younger than 40, and they told us to be patient, that hundreds of men were still inside. Then about 4pm, an Israeli officer came out. He was wearing dark glasses and said in Arabic: 'What are you all waiting for?' He said there was nobody left, that everyone had gone. There were Israeli trucks moving out with tarpaulin over them. We couldn't see inside. And there were jeeps and tanks and a bulldozer making a lot of noise. We stayed there as it got dark and the Israelis appeared to be leaving and we were very nervous. But then when the Israelis had moved away, we went inside. And there was no one there. Nobody. I had been only three years married. I never saw my husband again."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Sep 16 - 04:38 AM

J.I.M.'s Sports Stadium Myth:

Nobody was taken to the sports stadium during the massacre by anybody.

Events occurred as reported by the NY Times after the Phalangist Militia left the camp on the morning of the 18th September. The Camille Chamoun Stadium was used as an assembly point - no-one was killed there, and guess what J.I.M. no-one was buried there.

By the way J.I.M. another one of your "MYTHS" exploded by the Kahan Commission - None of Haddad's forces were involved in the massacre, according to testimony of IDF Liaison Officers attached to Major Haddad's forces through out the period in question Haddad's forces remained east of the Awali River.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Sep 16 - 04:24 AM

Kahan Commission analysis
Yezid Seyigh - Historian Kings College

Here is what the Kahan Commission found:

"It is impossible to determine precisely the number of persons who were slaughtered. The numbers cited in this regard are to a large degree tendentious and are not based on an exact count by persons whose reliability can be counted on. The low estimate came from sources connected with the Government of Lebanon or with the Lebanese Forces. The letter (exhibit 153) of the head of the Red Cross delegation to the Minister of Defense stated that Red Cross representatives had counted 328 bodies. This figure, however, does not include all the bodies, since it is known that a number of families buried bodies on their own initiative without reporting their actions to the Red Cross. The forces who engaged in the operation removed bodies in trucks when they left Shatilla, and it is possible that more bodies are lying under the ruins in the camps or in the graves that were dug by the assailants near the camps. The letter noted that the Red Cross also had a list of 359 persons who had disappeared in West Beirut between 18 August and 20 September, with most of the missing having disappeared from Sabra and Shatilla in mid-September. According to a document which reached us (exhibit 151), the total number of victims whose bodies were found from 18.9.82 to 30.9.82 is 460. This figure includes the dead counted by the Lebanese Red Cross, the International Red Cross, the Lebanese Civil Defense, the medical corps of the Lebanese army, and by relatives of the victims. According to this count, the 460 victims included 109 Lebanese and 328 Palestinians, along with Iranians, Syrians and members of other nationalities. According to the itemization of the bodies in this list, the great majority of the dead were males; as for women and children, there were 8 Lebanese women and 12 Lebanese children, and 7 Palestinian women and 8 Palestinian children. Reports from Palestinian sources speak of a far greater number of persons killed, sometimes even of thousands. With respect to the number of victims, it appears that we can rely neither on the numbers appearing in the document from Lebanese sources, nor on the numbers originating in Palestinian sources. A further difficulty in determining the number of victims stems from the fact that it is difficult to distinguish between victims of combat operations and victims of acts of slaughter. We cannot rule out the possibility that various reports included also victims of combat operations from the period antedating the assassination of Bashir. Taking into account the fact that Red Cross personnel counted no more that 328 bodies, it would appear that the number of victims of the massacre was not as high as a thousand, and certainly not thousands.

According to I.D.F. intelligence sources, the number of victims of the massacre is between 700 and 800 (testimony of the director of Military Intelligence, pp. 139-140). This may well be the number most closely corresponding with reality. It is impossible to determine precisely when the acts of slaughter were perpetrated; evidently they commenced shortly after the Phalangists entered the camps and went on intermittently until close to their departure.

Now oddly enough I see no mention of 1,500 bodies by the ICRC, certainly no mention of 2,750 dead.

No round up and interrogation of residents of the camp in underground holding centres at the Camille Chamoun Sports Stadium during the course of the massacre. Established beyond doubt by the Commission

Franklin Lamb actually saw nothing, again established beyond doubt by the Commission, he passed on stories told to him by others.

The Doctors, Nurses and Staff from the Gaza Hospital in west Beirut at the time they were taken to the UN Building had no idea that any massacre had taken place.

Nothing could be seen from the IDF Command Post

All the above taken from the Kahan Commission Report if you care to read it.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Sep 16 - 04:12 AM

You've had this - read it
"In his book published soon after the massacre,[77] the Israeli journalist Amnon Kapeliouk of Le Monde Diplomatique, arrived at about 2,000 bodies disposed of after the massacre from official and Red Cross sources and "very roughly" estimated 1,000 to 1,500 other victims disposed of by the Phalangists themselves to a total of 3,000–3,500."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Sep 16 - 03:52 AM

And more to ignore
Elsewhere, one could find women with their heads blown apart and others rotting together with the garbage surrounded by flies. A Norwegian diplomat, Gunnar Flakstad, said he saw a pile of bodies being taken off in a scoop bulldozer, apparently destined for burial. In the middle of the camp, near some of the worst bodies, was a freshly dug hole covered with red dirt and patted down by a bulldozer. The site is believed to be a mass grave.
New York Times

Nearby the Israelis continued their roundup of suspected Palestinian guerrillas. Israeli troops armed with loudspeakers drove through the Sabra refugee camp and the Fakhani Palestinian quarter and ordered all men to go to the sports stadium with their identification papers for interrogation.
By late afternoon 500 to 600 men were huddled together under several tiers of the stadium awaiting questioning. The men were being provided with food and water, and anyone in need of medical attention was being treated. The wives and sisters of many of those inside stood behind a fence begging reporters, kissing them up and down the arm, if they would only go in and find out about the fate of their husbands, sons or brothers.
The Israeli commander in charge, Col. Naftali Bahiry, said the identification papers of each man would be checked to determine whether or not he was a Palestine Liberation Organization guerrilla who had been ordered to take off his uniform and stay behind in civilian clothes in violation of the withdrawal agreement. The Begin Government says there are some 2,000 such guerrillas still in the camp. Most Are Not P.L.O. Guerrillas
Colonel Bahiry conceded that most of those being detained by the Israelis after questioning were not P.L.O. guerrillas ordered to stay behind, since few of those were apparently being found. Rather they were members of the Palestinian militia, which is made up of older men or school boys and was in charge of providing law and order in the camps.
Those who belonged to the militia are known as Lebanese Palestinians - the Palestinians who have lived in Beirut since 1948 and who unlike the guerrillas did not come here to fight. The militiamen are for the most part students, workers or businessmen who fight only when called upon to protect the camps.
Asked if all the Palestinian fighters being found by the Israelis were simply local militiamen rather than guerrillas ordered to stay behind by Yasir Arafat, the P.L.O. leader, as the Begin Government claimed, Colonel Bahiry stated, ''Oh, much more than half are militiamen.''
As the Palestinian men trudged to the sports stadium for interrogation, many asked reporters if any Phalangists or Haddad men were there, as they had heard of the killings in Shatila. One woman, Badria Muhaid, said she had her father and three brothers inside the sports stadium with the Israelis, but her 15-year-old brother, Marwan, had been taken away Friday night from the Sabra refugee camp by the Phalangists working together with the Israelis. Interrogated by Haddad's Militia
Colonel Bahiry declared the Haddad men and the Phalangists had been ordered out of the area this morning -but it appears to have been a little too late for the residents of Shatila.
According to residents of Shatila and reporters who visited the main street of the camp Friday evening, things were relatively calm in the area. One young boy, who declined to identify himself, said all the men were ordered out of the camp Friday and were divided up near the sports stadium between Lebanese and Palestinians. They were interrogated by members of Major Haddad's militia, which was transported into Beirut by the Israeli Army. Some of the men, he charged, were cut across the cheek when they refused to cooperate in the interrogation.
New York Times
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Sep 16 - 03:20 AM

"independent international commission subsequently asserted that the final count was 2,750."

1: What independent international commission?

2: What was their assertion based upon?

3: If their final count was 2,750. Where does your figure of 3,500 come from?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Sep 16 - 03:20 AM

"independent international commission subsequently asserted that the final count was 2,750."

1: What independent international commission?

2: What was their assertion based upon?

3: If their final count was 2,750. Where does your figure of 3,500 come from?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Sep 16 - 03:06 AM

Sigh- still no facts - ah well - push on.
"Sharon, Eitan, Drori, and military intelligence chief Yehoshua Saguy all knew what was happening by the evening of 17 September, according to their own subsequent testimony, but the massacre was allowed to continue for twelve more hours. Another 200-300 militiamen had already been allowed into Shatila by then, and the IDF also provided bulldozers which the Lebanese Forces hurriedly used to dig mass graves. The militia was finally ordered out at 8 a.m. on 18 September, by which time at least 700 refugees had died by Israeli estimate. The Lebanese military prosecutor later stated that 328 bodies had been recovered and that 991 persons were missing, but the ICRC reported 1,500 dead and an independent international commission subsequently asserted that the final count was 2,750.
Kahan Commission analysis
Yezid Seyigh - Historian Kings College.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Sep 16 - 02:48 AM

Jim Carroll - 24 Sep 16 - 10:51 AM

"That's new addition - The fasts of this were put up well over a year ago duning one of Keith's bouts of atrocity- denying put up at least a thread ago
I was reading it the other day when I was confirming that you were twelling lies about my "secret Graves".
No mass graves were looked for, which is the point of Fisk's artificial;
Do you actually have anything that resembles evidence?"

Let me see now, we have:

Sports Stadiums with "underground holding centres"
Bodies being buried inside the Sports Centre
Bodies not being buried in the Sports Centre but being transported on flatbed trucks to a Golf Course (Which J.I.M. is further than 300 yards from the Camille Chamoun Stadium)
1 Israeli bulldozers just outside the entrance to the camp
10 Israeli bulldozers inside the camp
3 Israeli bulldozers either at the Sports Stadium or at a Golf Course which lies to the South of the Stadium towards the airport.
Israeli's burying bodies to "ascertain that the true numbers will never be known" or words to that effect, which would of course logically require that the location of any such mass graves would have to be secret, yet according to J.I.M.'s eye-witnesses the Israeli's were observed doing all this a) Inside the camp, b) At the Sports Stadium and c) At the Club Libanais de Golf

See any contradictions in that lot J.I.M.?

What evidence do I have?
Well it can be summed up by lack of evidence really. If 3,500 people have been murdered then something must have been done to destroy the evidence that they have been killed. The ICRC and the Lebanese Authorities cleared the camp site after the massacre by LF militias in 1982 the number of dead is nowhere near the figure touted by J.I.M.
Now if a foreign force came into my country, my capital city and murdered 3,500 of my fellow countrymen then bundled them unceremoniously into mass graves that could be located through eye-witness accounts, then the second that foreign force had departed I would have those bodies exhumed and given decent burial, I would also invite independent observers from the UN and ICC along with the world's press to record the exhumations in order to confront and bring the perpetrators to justice. But none of that happened did it J.I.M. Can you offer up any sensible, logical reason why those bodies were never exhumed? Why no mass graves were ever looked for or even marked?

More "evidence" or more accurately more lack of evidence. One of J.I.M.'s eye-witnesses stated that she had seen bodies being buried at the Camille Chamoun Sports City Stadium which was destroyed during fighting in 1982. While not actually looking for mass graves extensive construction work was carried out on this site subsequent to the events of 1982, the complete redevelopment and reconstruction of the entire complex would have required extensive excavation and guess what J.I.M. - no bodies, let alone mass graves were uncovered. Robert Fisk in writing his book "Pity the Nation" in 1990 would not have known about that as construction work on the Camille Chamoun Site did not commence until 1997.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Sep 16 - 12:36 PM

One more time
On Saturday morning, September 18, 1982 Israeli Mossad agents inside the camp actually were observed driving three of the bulldozers in a frantic attempt to assist the Christian militia in covering up evidence of the crime before the exported international media arrived on the scene. The late American journalist, Janet Lee Stevens, documented that during Sept. 18 and 19th, most of the massacre victims killed during this period were slaughtered inside the joint Israeli-Lebanese Forces "interrogation center." Janet testified that these killed were put in flatbed trucks and taken to the Golf Course, just 300 yards away, where waiting Israeli bulldozers dug pits. Other trucks drove in the direction of East Beirut. At the time of her death, seven months later, Janet was preparing her report for publication. This observer packed Janet's belongings and after some wrangling with the US Embassy staff who had arrived on the plane President Ronald Reagan sent to return Janet and the other Americans remains to the US, her two cardboard boxes of papers and research notes were onboard.
29 Years After the Massacre at Sabra Shatila Franklin Lamb    SEPTEMBER 16, 2011 by FRANKLIN LAMB
'Franklin Lamb is a former Assistant Counsel of the US House Judiciary Committee and Professor of International Law at Northwestern College of Law, Portland, Oregon.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Sep 16 - 11:12 AM

There you go - one more time

Further north, in the Sabra section of the camp, women came up to us, crying with fear and appealing for help. Their men - sons, husbands, fathers - had been taken from their homes at the time of the massacre. A few1 had already been found at the execution walls but others were still missing. A Reuters correspondent had seen men being held under guard by Israeli troops in the ruins of the sports stadium. There were more journalists now, Lebanese newspaper photographers and diplomats. We found two Swiss delegates from the International Red Cross and told them where we had found mass graves. Swedish radio's correspondent was in the camp.
We found hundreds of the missing men in the stadium, just as the Reuters man had said. They were Lebanese for the most part — Lebanese as well as Palestinians lived in Sabra - and they were being taken away for 'interrogation' by militiamen. The whole western side of the ruined sports stadium was guarded by uniformed Israeli troops together with plain-clothes Shin Bet intelligence operatives, big, heavy-set men wearing Ray-Bans with Uzi machine-guns in their hands. There were also militia¬men there, three of whom I saw leading a frightened man away from the stadium. The Israelis let them do this. They had agreed to this procedure. The Israelis themselves explained to us that this was a search for 'terrorists'.
From 'Pity the Nation' Robert Fisk

After Sharon's army had taken West Beirut and sealed off all escapes routes from the Palestinian refugee camps, Sharon ordered the phalange in. The official order from Sharon read "for the operation in the camps the phalange should be sent in"*. Knowing that the camps were full of unarmed civilians - mainly women and children, only around 150 phalange were deployed. The testimonies of the survivors suggest that both Israeli soldiers and their mercenaries the Phalange entered the camps and participated in the massacre**.
The Israelis supervised the operation from their forward command post, a six story building overlooking the camps. From there they gave logistic support and relayed orders to the soldiers on the ground. Concerned that reports of the on-going slaughter would leak out, the soldiers were ordered to continue the killing through out the night - to facilitate this the Israelis lit up the sky with flares all night long. The idea was to kill as many Palestinians as quickly as possible, before international pressure would put a stop to the operation. Over 3000 elderly men, women and children were murdered. Next the evidence had to be buried quickly - so the Israelis send in bulldozers. Houses were packed with bodies and demolished to form mass graves. One such mass grave contained a thousand bodies.
FROM BEIRUT TO JERUSALEM
EYE-WITNESS TO SABRA-SHATILA MASSACRE
Dr.Ang Swee Chai

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Sep 16 - 10:51 AM

That's new addition - The fasts of this were put up well over a year ago duning one of Keith's bouts of atrocity- denying put up at least a thread ago
I was reading it the other day when I was confirming that you were twelling lies about my "secret Graves".
No mass graves were looked for, which is the point of Fisk's artificial;
Do you actually have anything that resembles evidence? - you've never presented any - ever.
"Once again facts and history trump ideological revisionism."
Oooooh - another troll - must be an epidemic
I know you make a point of not responding to questions, but do you see any "facts and history" here?
All I can see are yet more denials.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 24 Sep 16 - 10:33 AM

Once again facts and history trump ideological revisionism.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Sep 16 - 09:38 AM

Ah so Carroll's Israeli digging of mass Graves and building a Sports Stadium over the site to ensure that their crimes would never be uncovered becomes:

"Shahira Abu Rudeina says she was taken to the Cite Sportif where, in one of the underground "holding centres", she saw a retarded man, watched by Israeli soldiers, burying bodies in a pit."

The Cite Sportif by the way IS the Camille Chamoun Stadium the biggest in the Lebanon. It was built in 1957, destroyed in 1982 and totally remodelled and rebuilt in 1998 - no mass graves dating from 1982 were discovered during this extensive reconstruction work or in any later modifications.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Sep 16 - 03:41 AM

"Even before the slaughter inside the camps had ended, Shahira Abu Rudeina says she was taken to the Cite Sportif where, in one of the underground "holding centres", she saw a retarded man, watched by Israeli soldiers, burying bodies in a pit. Her evidence might be rejected were it not for the fact that she also expressed her gratitude for an Israeli soldier–inside the Chatila camp, against all the evidence given by the Israelis–who prevented the murder of her daughters by the Phalange.
Long after the war, the ruins of the Cite Sportif were torn down and a brand new marble stadium was built in its place, partly by the British. Pavarotti has sung there. But the testimony of what may lie beneath its foundations–and its frightful implications–might give Ariel Sharon further reason to fear an indictment.
ROBERT FISK"

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Sep 16 - 03:24 AM

"you will find gave himself the name Jom in one of his posts a"
Your clinging to a typo adds lack of imagination to your many talents
You put great store on typos, don't you - always hand when there's nothing else.
"You make your comments, ill-informed and inaccurate as they are, and expect them to be accepted without challenge."
Back to 'The At#rabs have no place in their ancient homeland - you really are an adherent to Israeli and well as home-grown fascism.
I suppose we have to put your loutish bad manners and your unpleasant insecurity down to bad upbringing and an unfulfilled life, for which, you have my sympathy, but I see no reason why we should have to put up with it here - so if you have nothing else to offer.......
O and O
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Sep 16 - 03:08 AM

Couldn't care less who it came from Carroll, your figure of 3,500 is an unverified estimate that you are presenting as being factual IT ISN'T. And in no way whatsoever has it been fully investigated and documented as you have previously claimed on this thread.

Jim Carroll - 08 Sep 16 - 08:49 AM

"It is unverifiable because the Israelis buried the bodies and built a sports stadium over the mass graves to ascertain that the exact figure would never be known."

Jim Carroll same day:

"Eye witnesses, including the American Jewish nurse, reported Israeli bulldozers clearing the site in order to dig mass graves."

Still want to disclaim ever having come out with a load of crap about mass graves and sports stadiums Jom?

Still want to disclaim wittering on about the Israelis burying bodies in a mass grave dug by bulldozers?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Sep 16 - 02:34 AM

How nice to hear from you again Andy7. Even nicer to hear that you think that this subject should be discussed seriously, even although you show absolutely no signs or have no intention of doing so. You make your comments, ill-informed and inaccurate as they are, and expect them to be accepted without challenge. So I will ask you again:

1: What is "Palestinian" Land?

2: Show me a map, any map, drawn up by Hamas/Hezbollah/Fatah/Palestinian Authority that shows the borders of the two state solution they tell the world they are fighting for.

3: Explain to us all why every other living being and every country in the world has the right of self-defence but Israel, the Israeli and Jewish people do not.

4: Tell us what land in the Mandated Territory of Palestine was "stolen". We know that Gaza was by Egypt from 1948 until 1967, we know that Judea and Samaria and East Jerusalem were by Jordan from 1848 until 1967.

The following from you - "The people living in the so-called 'occupied territories' (a judgemental term, I know) also do not have it easy." - Those people have not had, and are not having, it easy because their supposed Arab friends and allies and their own "leaders" since 1920 have chosen war and violence over peaceful co-existence. Have treated "their people" like political pawns, prisoners and livestock for their own purposes (Mainly as a cash crop to line their own pockets - they are still trying to trace Arafat's billions).

As to "name calling" and the deliberate mis-spelling of a name - well Andy7 check back if you'd care to - I have suffered that for years on this Forum without complaint and J.I.M. Carroll you will find gave himself the name Jom in one of his posts and I rather liked it. Keith A of Hertford doesn't complain when he is called "professor",

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Andy7
Date: 23 Sep 16 - 07:50 PM

It's such a pity that some posters feel the need to post anonymous personal attacks on here; because it's such an important topic, well worth discussing seriously, and in depth.

In particular, it's ridiculous to deliberately mis-spell someone's name over and over again during a serious discussion. I was going to write 'childish', but not many children that I've known would ever do that.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Sep 16 - 03:26 PM

You may add your consulting your mate over the bulldozers to your list of porkies, by the way.
Anyone involved in excavation machinery who didn't know that bulldozers can be adapted dig must be a moonlighting supply teacher
You made it up
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Sep 16 - 01:38 PM

"definitely that the IDF used bulldozers to dig mass graves in secret"
For the record
I have never claimed the bodies were buried secretly - this appears to be more of your "made up shit"
I've just checked all the threads the massacre has been mentioned - no mention of "secretly" anywhere - just that they were buried to hide the numbers - as was claimed by Benny Morris.
What have oyu been told about making things up?
It invariably blows up in your face.
If you disagree with this - prove it.
Don't ask anybody to show where you have lied again - these threads are big enough as it is.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Sep 16 - 01:02 PM

"Isn't that the line they tried after Jenin "
This didn't come from the Lebanese - it came from a respected Israeli writer, journalist, aid workers and investigators - it has never been challenged by anybody other than the accused regime, whose word appears to be sacrosanct.
Nobody has ever suggested otherwise - it is given as the reason why the exact numbers aren't known - particularly by Benny Morris - it was the object of the exerxcise.
You have anything motre to say bring something more than adende driven opinion
"Jom"
Ifr you can't be bothered to spell my name - don't bother coming back- your bullying arrogance has long ceased to amuse me
Go exercise your inferiority complex on somebody it impresses - I'm not qualified to deal with the psychological damaged
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Sep 16 - 11:51 AM

"they were removed by the Israelis and Phalangists - that is an unchallenngavbbe fact"

Isn't that the line they tried after Jenin after it became clear that nowhere near the number of people were killed? Same people same lies only with Jenin the Israelis did not leave and the truth that no massacre had occurred came out. And no Jom it is not an unchallengeable FACT for it to be a fact you'd have to know numbers, how they were transported, where they were transported to and where they were buried - As none of that is likely to have happened because of the time line and opportunity it is not surprising at all that none of these supposed "facts" of yours are known.

Opinion: "A view or judgement formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge"

Fact: "a thing that is known or proved to be true"

Your far from impartial "eye-witnesses" have stated their opinions that does not make them "facts". Far too many inconsistencies and contradictions for what they say to be considered reliable.

"Do you have a problem with "assisted in burying the bodies" and actually burying them?"

Frankly yes I do - you originally stated quite definitely that the IDF used bulldozers to dig mass graves in secret to bury the dead and hid the grave under a Sports Stadium - you had "evidence" of this from "eye-witnesses" - stick with what you originally said to do anything else casts doubt and loss of credibility on your original statement - but you haven't stuck with it have you Jom.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Sep 16 - 09:12 AM

No proof of your own, just denial, totally ignoring the evidence in hand.
The IDF assisted in the burial of the corpses using bulldozers - confirmed by Israeli historian Benny Morris, who went on to say it was done in order to conceal the enormity of the massacre.
"Tell us again how the IDF managed to bury those bodies in secret after the LF Phalangists left the camp"
No "figure" was ever confirmed - that is obe of the first accepted facts - an accurate count was made impossible due to the fact that nobody knew where the bodies were buried - they were removed by the Israelis and Phalangists - that is an unchallenngavbbe fact
Tell us again how you continue to distort what I have provided (rhetorical question, of course)
The bulldozers entered the camp before the killers left, Ellen Shapiro left the camp flanked by mobs of Phalangists - she reported seeing a bulldozer with Hebrew writing on the side as she left.
Do you have a problem with "assisted in burying the bodies" and actually burying them?
The figure of 3,500 was arrived at by an Israeli Journalist, based on his own rough count - it is the highest one provided, but as I said, it could be higher as the transitory nature of these refugee camps make it difficult to assess who is in residence and who has left.
Your persistent harping on the figures and your ignoring the fact that a far smaller number than the one given would still be a massive crime against humanity is a pretty clear indication tat you are nit-picking in order to avoid addressing the proven facts.
Do so or go away - where is your proof, where are your witness statements - where is anything other than your own twisted excuses?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Sep 16 - 06:51 AM

"It was a crime against humanity facilitated, armed and assisted by the Israeli regime."

Certainly was a crime against humanity but it was perpetrated by a Lebanese Militia. It no way was it facilitated by the IDF, in fact the LF forces were warned by the IDF to behave with circumspection, the Israeli regime as you term it had no prior knowledge of what was about to happen, and references to their "probable" and "indirect" responsibility in the subsequent inquiries revolves around what others in hindsight thought the Israelis should have been able to predict.

"The War of the camps has nothing to do with the massacre of 3,500 unarmed refugees"

No proof whatsoever that 3,500 unarmed refugees were massacred, Keith A of Hertford has already given you the numbers confirmed by the ICRC and Lebanese Authorities and it is nowhere close to your figure. I stated that it was odd that for years now you have been banging on incessantly about the massacre in Sabra-Shatila perpetrated by LF in 1982 where you say 3,500 died yet you have not said a word about, let alone condemn, the massacres of 1985/86 perpetrated by Syrian backed Muslim Militia forces where almost double that number were killed.

Tell us again how the IDF managed to bury those bodies in secret after the LF Phalangists left the camp in 1982? They were being closely watched by the world's media, an armed multi-National Force and the Lebanese Authorities.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Sep 16 - 06:20 AM

"1 Bulldozer seen at the camp entrance versus 10 bulldozers inside the camp - Which is correct?
"
Bulldozer reported as having been seen by Ellen Seigal - correct
10 bulldozers revealed to have been used confirmed by the report of the Kahan Commission in the American newspaper   given on this forum - eqally correct
One was an eye-witness report the other based later research
The number of bulldozers discovered to have been used rose as witnsses were interviewed, the first being the half-dozen reported by relief workers, who saw four.
The final figure was reached following the Kahan Commission enquiry, where the Israelis claimed only one.
Benny Morris admitted there were several and they were being used to bury the bodies.
The actual number is totally immaterial - if it had been 35, it would have been a crime against humanity, if it had been 350 it would have been a crime against humanity....
It was a crime against humanity facilitated, armed and assisted by the Israeli regime.
If you read what was put up, you would be aware of all this - it's all been provided.
I have never suggested that the IDF entered the camp - even though their presence was reported by eye witnesses, whod described pleading with Israeli soldiers to stop the killing.
I have listed everything that has been confirmed and asked for your response - nothing other than dishonest claims that they've been answered.
The War of the camps has nothing to do with the massacre of 3,500 unarmed refugees - it was a hideous crime against humanity and nobody, other than the Israeli right wing and their right wing apologists have ever denied it.
Now - where's your evidence?
"Jom"
Try again J.I.M. - not difficult.
J.I.M. Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Sep 16 - 04:54 AM

"you do precisely the same thing in your very next post."

Really Shaw? As far as I can see my very next post was addressed to points made by Andy7 who up until 22 Sep 16 - 05:00 PM had not contributed to the thread - so how could that be repetition?

Care to point out anything that I did say in that post that was inaccurate, incorrect or "stupid".

By the way here are the inconsistencies in the unverified and unproven stories that Jom believes:

3,500 death but nowhere near that number of bodies - the Palestinians attempted to tell the same lies about Jenin but got caught out

Lebanese Forces (Phalangist) personnel perpetrated the massacre IDF personnel did not enter the camp - yet 10 Israeli bulldozers were supposed to have been seen inside the camp burying the dead, who I presume would have been inside the camp - not possible if no IDF personnel entered the camp as Jom's eye-witnesses have said.

1 Bulldozer seen at the camp entrance versus 10 bulldozers inside the camp - Which is correct?

According to Jom, and the story he believes, the difference in the ICRC and Lebanese body count and the one his bias and bigotry wants to believe can be explained away by a statement that the bodies were buried in a "secret mass grave" dug by IDF bulldozers and hidden beneath a Sports Stadium - This fable is utterly ridiculous for a number of fairly obvious and logical reasons. So obvious and logical in fact that one would have to be a complete and utter moron to believe the tale in the first place - needless to say Jom swallowed it hook-line-and-sinker as soon as he read it, pausing not even for a nano-second to question the practicalities and time line that would have been required.

Also odd isn't it Shaw that Jom never mentions the 1985 War of the Camps in Lebanon where Syrian backed Shi'ite Amal Militias attacked the Palestinians in Sabra-Shatila death toll there between 3,781 and 6,787. He doesn't mention this probably because it cannot be blamed on the Israelis, but these attacks were far worse than those of 1982 in terms of scale, ferocity and duration. Strange isn't it that while all that was going on there were the Israelis digging away with their bulldozers "secretly" burying the death of the 1982 massacre and constructing a Sports Stadium - after all the damn thing wasn't finished until 1998.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Sep 16 - 03:45 AM

"Anybody who repeats something stupid over and over again is disfunctional."

"Well you do it all the time Carroll."

And, without a trace of irony, you do precisely the same thing in your very next post.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Sep 16 - 02:53 AM

You have had "hard evidence" - you have not attempted to disprove it, you have described it as "made up shit" - any moron can do that, as you have shown.
If the eye-witness accounts are "unverifiable and contradictory", you certainly have produced nothing to show that is the case.
Again, you make belligerent and unqualified abatements on what I have put up, as with everything you have claimed.
Your, 'it couldn't have happened because we don't know the numbers' sums up the level of your argument, your 'bulldozers' sank in the mud - you have persistently dodged behind Jenin which is not an issue here.
You have answered nothing - you have responded to nothing other than with insulting and belligerent bullying - all from the safety of anonymity and distance - as with all bullies, you do what you do from relative safety.
What with Keith's mindless repetition of imbecilic arguments based on 'Israel didn't do it' - full stop and your schoolyard behaviour, all you have managed to do is show yourselves up ad dysfunctional extremists.
You say I have a closed mind - what exactly have you put up to think about that isn't entirely unqualified opinion - what facts have you produced, what evidence, where have you quoted anybody - qualified or unqualified, that makes anything resembling a rebuttal of the facts?
You can dismiss the evidence and opinions of eyewitnesses out of hand - any half-wit can do that - that's what spoilt children do when they can't get their own way - over and over again.
You can't even manage my name J-I-M - suggests a nasty dose of dyslexia to me.
You want to open my mind - give me something to put in it - YOU HAVE PRODUCED NOTHING BECAUSE YOU HAVEN'T THE NOUSE TO FIND ANYTHING.
Where is your evidence?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Sep 16 - 02:50 AM

Andy7 - 22 Sep 16 - 05:00 PM

Tell us Andy7 what is "Palestinian Land"

Perhaps you could show us the borders for the Two State Solution the "Palestinians" claim they are fighting for showing the respective states of Palestine and Israel (You'll be doing very well if you can do this - because no such map exists)

This comment of yours I found rather interesting:

"Israel, since its formation, has been surrounded by enemies, which more than once have tried to wipe it off the map.

That makes aggressive Israeli policies a lot more understandable. It still does not make them right."

That first sentence is perfectly true, on this thread I have listed the occasions where all out attempts have been made to wipe Israel off the map and where the intention was to annihilate the Jewish population. As for the second sentence the only "aggressive" Israeli policies I am aware of are targeted at those who have attacked Israel and it's population, those former enemies of Israel who have reached a peace agreement with Israel have never subsequently been attacked. Israel has only ever used aggression in the face of extreme provocation (Over 15,000 missiles have been fired into Israel since 2005 - that sort of attack must be responded to). The third sentence considering what you say you realise in the first and second is rather idiotic and would appear so to anyone charged with the defence of their country - every living creature on this planet has the right to fight back and defend itself if attacked - the State of Israel and the Israeli people are no different - they are perfectly right to adopt whatever policies are required to ensure their sovereignty and security against any aggression.

"There is also the uncomfortable fact that the creation of the state of Israel was achieved largely by acquisition of land belonging to others. "

That Andy7 is a "MYTH". As well as Jews who have lived in the area for hundreds of years {Hebron now a predominantly Arab town since the Jews who had lived there for over 800 years were driven out}, resettlement of the area by Jews from Europe has been going on since the 1840s and they purchased the land they settled from the Ottoman rulers and from largely absentee landlords. In 1920 when the Mandated territory of Palestine was created by the League of Nations 77% of it was given to the Arabs of Palestine for their own exclusive use. Anyone could settle in the remaining 23% of the territory. Those boundaries and borders established in 1923 remain until today the ONLY agreed borders in the territory, this part of the original territory of Palestine included Gaza, Jerusalem and what we today call the West Bank.

"I agree that, if we are (justifiably) to criticise Israel, we should apply the same criteria to others. Israel is a democracy, with human rights legislation, that compares favourably with many other nations. They are, in some ways, a 'soft' target.

So, I wish we would criticise the human rights records of all nations, according to their current policies and actions."

As you say that you have read down through this thread you will know that that just simply does not happen here on Mudcat, or amongst the ranks of the Labour Party's new hard left - only Israel {"a democracy, with human rights legislation, that compares favourably with many other nations"} is criticised, while brutal, corrupt and repressive undemocratic states and organisations get a "free pass".

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 08:01 PM

"Anybodyt who repeats something stupid over and over again is disfunctional."

Well you do it all the time Carroll.

You have produced no "hard evidence" - you don't even know what that is. You have produced "eye-witness" accounts that are unverified and contradictory. You have provided statements describing things that could not possibly have been true {Even according to your "eye-witnesses"}. You have been asked to clarify those blatant contradictions time and again and you have been unable to do so time and again.

I do not think that I have EVER come across someone as idiotic, gullible, bigoted and closed minded as you are - you are in a class of your own.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 07:27 PM

Like I said Andy, pathetic.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 07:16 PM

You posted totally dishonestly as an anonymous Guest and as Bobad at the same time, in order to call anyone one who disagreed with your bigotry a "Jew-hater," and you pretended that you had to do it so that we would "address the issue, not attack the man." In every other forum I'm on you'd have been permanently banned for such dishonesty. I knew for months what you were up to but it was only when this forum decided that anonymous Guest posting was banned that you finally had to come out. Now if you think that mercilessly exposing your crass dishonesty and disreputable behaviour in that way was "bullying," then I'm afraid that you don't know the meaning of the term. In fact, I can't think of any worse bullying behaviour than calling people names such as "Jew-hater" from behind a wall of cowardly anonymity. The true mark of a real bully is cowardice, which is precisely what you showed, garnished, naturally, with your utter dishonesty. You have not got a single ounce of credibility here and I'm amazed that you have so little shame that you show up here at all.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 06:49 PM

Bobad is a two-faced, lying troll

This is typical of Shaw, pay it no heed. He is a renowned bully who attacks those who dare disagree with his opinions. For him and a couple of his buddies here anyone who challenges them is a troll. It's quite pathetic really but this is a forum that tolerates people like them.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 06:46 PM

Go away, liar. You understand nothing about anything. And that's the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 06:26 PM

the creation of the state of Israel was achieved largely by acquisition of land belonging to others

That is historically inaccurate and a typical anti-Semitic trope.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 06:03 PM

Bobad is a two-faced, lying troll, Andy, with a history here of dishonesty, multiple identity, abusive comments from behind a wall of anonymity and attempted deception. Anyway, enough of that. I agree with almost all you say. Actually, though, although there are stupid and misguided factions surrounding Israel who STATE that they want to wipe Israel from the map/Jews from the planet, etc., none have ever got anywhere near to trying to do it, let alone actually doing it. That isn't to say that they haven't been provoked into seriously inappropriate responses to successive Israeli regimes' disproportionate, bellicose provocation and cross-border abuses, not to speak of those land thefts you refer to. It's a bloody rotten mess all right and it's fuelled almost entirely by the unconditional support of Israel from the US, including three billion per annum in military aid. It is, however, perfectly possible to see where Fatah, Hamas and Hezbollah are coming from whilst at the same time defending the inalienable right of ordinary Israelis to have peace, prosperity and security. What a shame that the current Israeli regime thinks that that only applies to three-quarters of the Israeli people, but therein lies another tale. As for applying standards to Israel, well I for one should like to see countries such as the US, China and Saudi Arabia isolated and sanctioned for their atrocious human rights records. They all put people to death in their droves and they all hassle and undermine their neighbours in their own self-interest. Jihadi John with his public beheadings was a monster. A country which supplies much of our oil and with whom we have a massive arms trade does exactly the same thing to people, in public, hundreds of times a year. Isn't expediency a wonderful thing. But I'm not for letting Israel off for its transgressions just because other countries are "just as bad." Anyone who feels offended by that can start a thread to discuss the nastiness of any country they like. You don't let little Jimmy off for hitting the little boy at the next desk just because little Billy has been looking up girls' skirts.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 06:02 PM

I agree that they don't have it easy but that is because of the corruption, incompetence and recalcitrance of their leadership.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Andy7
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 05:53 PM

Yes, I do understand that dilemma.

If you read my original post again, you will see that I was attempting to be sympathetic towards the Israeli situation, which I realise is not easy.

But still, we should be able to criticise any state, when it violates others' rights. The people living in the so-called 'occupied territories' (a judgemental term, I know) also do not have it easy.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 05:41 PM

Judea and Samaria or what is referred to by some as the West Bank, a name given it when illegally occupied by Jordan, is not, nor has it ever been, "Palestinian" land. It is the historical heartland of the Jewish people, a place where they resided for generations until being ethnically cleansed by the Jordanians. Israel would gladly give it to the "Palestinians" for a state if the security of Israel could be assured. The experience with Gaza and the continuing PA supported terrorist activity against Jews makes it clear that the "Palestinian" leadership is incapable of providing that assurance.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Andy7
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 05:12 PM

Throughout history, land has changed hands. As I said, we have to work with the current situation.

Very difficult, though, if not impossible, to get this right!

If you stole my land a year ago, you committed a crime, and it's still my land, if I can get it back.

But if your ancestors stole the land from my ancestors 100 years ago? 1,000 years ago? 5,000 years ago?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 05:04 PM

has continued to build new settlements on Palestinian land.

Pray tell us when Judea and Samaria became "Palestinian" land.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Andy7
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 05:00 PM

I've just read through (some of) this long thread, which started as a discussion about the Labour Party under Jeremy Corbyn, and has more recently become a discussion about the alleged crimes against humanity of the state of Israel.

I believe it is fair to criticise any regime that is violating human rights. In my opinion, this includes Israel, which has continued to build new settlements on Palestinian land.

I can kind of understand Israel's thinking! In the UK, we are blessed by being surrounded by friends: northern continental Europe, Ireland and Scandinavia. In contrast, Israel, since its formation, has been surrounded by enemies, which more than once have tried to wipe it off the map.

That makes aggressive Israeli policies a lot more understandable. It still does not make them right.

There is also the uncomfortable fact that the creation of the state of Israel was achieved largely by acquisition of land belonging to others. However, we have to live in, and work with, the current situation. No one is seriously going to argue, for example, that the whole of the USA should be returned to native Americans, nor that the whole of the UK should be returned to the Celtic races.

However ... I agree that, if we are (justifiably) to criticise Israel, we should apply the same criteria to others. Israel is a democracy, with human rights legislation, that compares favourably with many other nations. They are, in some ways, a 'soft' target.

So, I wish we would criticise the human rights records of all nations, according to their current policies and actions.

Not so easy to do, though, in the real world, when we want good trade deals with economically and politically important countries such as China! For example ... best if we don't ever invite the Dalai Lama to visit in an official capacity again!   :-(

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 03:00 PM

Your "decent countries" poured burning petrol on Viet-Namese peasants for fourteen Years

Canada? New Zealand? Australia? Scandinavian and other EU states?
None supported those silly resolutions against Israel, or accused them of any war crime.

They leave that to decent, rights respecting democracies like Iran, Saudi, Syria, Egypt, Qatar, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 02:44 PM

"You have come up with a new name to call us,"
Anybodyt who repeats something stupid over and over again is disfunctional.
Israel's record is as it is
If it is unjust, on of their friends would have protested
None did
End of story
Your "decent countries" poured burning petrol on Viet-Namese peasants for fourteen Years
Sold weapons to recognised despots including Assad, who has just bombed relief convoys
Bargained with the perpetrators of the Tainament Square massacre to build a nuclear power plant
Payed homage to to the founder of a dictatorship at the same time as a journalist was being given 1,000 lashes for speaking out of turn.
Even people who behave like this refuse to speak in support of Israel's terrorism.
Game over
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 01:56 PM

Well done Jim.
You have come up with a new name to call us, but still none of your "documented evidence" that you claim to have.

From your UN link Jim.

"The U.N. Human Rights Council wrapped up its latest session in Geneva on Friday, March 27 by adopting four resolutions condemning Israel. That's four times more than any of the other 192 UN member states.

There were four resolutions on Israel. And one on North Korea — a country that is home to government policies of torture, starvation, enslavement, rape, disappearances, and murder – to name just some of its crimes against humanity.

Four resolutions on Israel. And one on Syria. Where the death toll of four years of war is 100,000 civilians, ten million people are displaced, and barrel bombs containing chemical agents like chlorine gas are back in action.


Four resolutions on Israel. And one on Iran. Where there is no rule of law, no free elections, no freedom of speech, corruption is endemic, protestors are jailed and tortured, religious minorities are persecuted, and pedophilia is state-run. At last count, in 2012 Iranian courts ordered more than 30,000 girls ages 14 and under to be "married."

And what did that one resolution on Iran say? Co-sponsored by the United States, it was labelled a "short procedural text," consisting of just three operative paragraphs that contained not a single condemnation of Iran.


The Israel resolutions, on the other hand, were full of "demands," "condemns," "expresses grave concern," and "deplores" – along with orders to "cease immediately" a long list of alleged human rights violations.

Ninety percent of states – inhabited by 6.6 billion people – got no mention at all. Countries like China, Qatar, Russia, and Saudi Arabia. For the UN, there was not one human rights violation worthy of mention by any of these human rights horror shows.

Why not? For starters, China, Qatar, Russia and Saudi Arabia are all members of the UN Human Rights Council.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 01:06 PM

"and no dcent government has ever accused him of any."
It would not be beyond reason to describe the behaviour of you pair as dysfunctional.
You have done far more damage to your ow image than I could ever dream of doing so there seems very little point in attempting to better what you have achieved.
I'll leave you to it
I'VE ALWAYS CONSIDERED THE UN TO BE FAIRLY DECENT AND FAIR
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 10:14 AM

No enquiry has ever found him guilty of any war crime

Same can be said for Henry Kissinger.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 10:05 AM

Thank you for confirming that Israel elects war criminals into public office though

No enquiry has ever found him guilty of any war crime, and no dcent government has ever accused him of any.
Only you and other enemies of Israel.

You've had enough evidence to choke a donkey

We have had no hard evidence of any Israeli involvement in the massacre or disposal of bodies.

if you have any of your own to contradict it - give it,

We have Israel's version of events, which is based on reports of reputable bodies like ICRC and staff from the hospital, which is infinitely more credible that the version you and Israel's enemies keep trying to push but which informed governments all reject.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 09:31 AM

You really don't get it, do you?
Are you so feeble minded as to think you can bully and bluster and refuse to qualify any of your claims?
Until you grasp the basics of discussion, I really do think we're finished here
You've had enough evidence to choke a donkey - if you have any of your own to contradict it - give it, otherwise, you really do have no case.
This "made up shit" comes with sources - where are yours.
Your behaviour is unacceptable - and the fact you carry on as you do, anonymously and from a distance makes it cowardly
Try it in the pub and see how far you get - you'd end up going home with your teeth in your pocket - your 'excavating equipment expert' would probably run over you with his bulldozer
My name is Jim Carroll - if you can't even get your head around that simple courtesy - what's the point
I left trying to communicate with ill brought up children and imbeciles years ago
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 08:34 AM

Thanks Jom for demonstrating Point 5 of my last post perfectly:

5: "It is a matter of documented history, not opinion, certainly not yours."

That's a bit of a joke Jom, you have consistently proved beyond all possible doubt that you have absolutely no idea what documented historical fact is.

Here is Jom at his very best presenting what he thinks are "FACTS":

"Thank you for confirming that Israel elects war criminals into public office though" - Jim Carroll

Presenting "Made-up-shit" as fact - so tell us Jom what "war criminals" have the Israelis elected to public office? I mean actual convicted war criminals, not just those who you THINK are war criminals

To do this of course you will be readily able to provide:

- Name
- Offence
- Where tried and convicted
- What sentence they received
- What public office they were elected to

Jim Carroll however knows full well that he will be unable to produce any such information as his assertion that "Israel elects war criminals into public office is just complete and utter bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 07:46 AM

Still nothing but opinions eh?
Come back when you have something but your own blustering
Thank you for confirming that Israel elects war criminals into public office though - a step in the right direction for you, I suppose!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 07:10 AM

Jim Carroll - 22 Sep 16 - 03:30 AM

1: "Still nothing but opinions - no evidence whatever to back up your claims."

Well Jom, anybody's "estimate" of anything is "nothing but an opinion" - to declare it as a fact that 3,500 people were killed you must have 3,500 bodies, so your sources have expressed their opinion and they have absolutely nothing whatsoever to back up their claims - if you doubt that then read in detail what has been stated in the links that you yourself have provided - I have merely pointed out the inconsistencies in the stories told.

2: "The exaggeration of Jenin was exposed immediately - the facts of Sabra/Shatila have been a established for decades."

No it was not, it took about 5 to 6 months for the lies about Jenin to be exposed for what they were. Compare the stories and "eye-witness" testimony about Sabra-Shatila and Jenin and there are clear similarities, they got away with the lies in the former because the ground was not in Israel, in Jenin the ground was and remained under Israeli control.

3: "Nobody has mounted a serious challenge to the events during that time other than the Israelis in the form of their own enquiry."

The ICRC and the Lebanese Authorities in Beirut established clearly {Surveys undertaken by 17 different organisations and agencies did not put the death toll at anything like the 3,500 you claim}. The Israeli Inquiry into the events at Sabra-Shatila were harder on what was perceived as being the Israeli role in what happened than any other Inquiry carried out at the time. But all detailed that at no time did any members of the IDF enter the camp - so who was driving all those bulldozers Jom? Your eye-witnesses are very shaky about that.

4: "Even the role the Americans played in covering up this massacre has been long established, by American Human Rights Groups - it's all been put up."

Simply more opinion Jom. It was the Lebanese who drew a line under any investigation in the interests of reconciliation - no American cover-up, no Israeli cover-up.

5: "It is a matter of documented history, not opinion, certainly not yours."

That's a bit of a joke Jom, you have consistently proved beyond all possible doubt that you have absolutely no idea what documented historical fact is.

6: "You seem to be so egotistic (or simply too lazy or inept) to even bother putting up real evidence; you rely entirely on strutting bullying (rather like the somewhat inadequate Wizard of Oz who hid behind a screen with a large megaphone)."

What evidence Jom, you certainly do not have any, neither do those you link to and quote. Rather weird that what you refer to as "bullying" is in fact nothing more than your attention being drawn to the glaring inconsistencies and flaws in your arguments that you simply cannot address, which is why if either myself, Keith A or bobad put up detail you cannot counter or challenge it - If we were just making things up it would be easily refuted.

7: "The New Sports stadium is yet a nother smokescreen - it has been cited as a probable site for the bodies, nothing more."

Not exactly true that is it Jom - IIRC it was YOU who stated as though it was an established fact that the numbers required to make up your mythical 3,500 body count had been buried under a sports stadium by the Israelis in "secret". I merely asked you to name the stadium and explain how on earth it could have possibly been done under the glare of media interest prevalent on the scene at the time. Your response to this was as usual, deflection, bluster and personal attack.

8: "It seems to be the only straw you have to grasp now that your bulldozers have driven off into the sunset."

Not at all Jom, and besides IIRC they were YOUR bulldozers, I merely pointed out to you that you cannot excavate a mass grave in secret in a populated urban area with that type of machine. You have yet to explain how it could be done.

9: "If you have any evidence that this massacre didn't happen"

I have never made any claim that the massacre never happened. I have said that there is no proof that 3,500 people were killed, as you have always bandied this figure about as though it were a fact - it is not, it is an estimate that differs wildly from all others conducted and verified at the time.

10: "that the Israeli role wasn't as it has been described"

You have always stated that the IDF was directly responsible - it wasn't and both Inquiries, one International and one Israeli, make that clear, the closest they come to it is a statement to the effect that the IDF must shoulder some responsibility for probably being indirectly responsible for what occurred.

11: "that Israeli didn't appoint the individual their own enquiry cited as being responsible, Prime Minister of Israel, and by doing so, giving their blessing for the massacre of 3,500 unarmed refugees, then present it."

As Minister of Defence at the time I believe that they sacked him or forced his resignation. Him then winning a subsequent democratic election and becoming Prime Minister is not connected in any way to the events that happened in 1982 in Beirut. You and your "sources" have still to prove for definite that 3,500 refugees were indeed massacred. Going on to become a head of government, or indeed a head of state after previously misdeeds is not uncommon, after all Jom one ony has to look at Eamon de Valera - directly responsible for the deaths of ~6,000 Irish Citizens and inflicting needless damage on the economy of his country they elected him to both offices without any sort qualms of conscience.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 06:47 AM

"There is the israeli version of events,"
Quite -
Since when has "we didn't do it guv" amounted to a challenge?
Nobody outside Israel has ever challenged the facts of the case.
Even Israel's own verdict is invalid as it appointed the person it found culpable Prime Minister
You do not give such a position to somebody you have found guilty of a crime unless you support that crime

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 05:33 AM

Steve
Ruth Smeeth is persecuting Corbyn, who she hates, with lies, smears, exaggerations and stage-managed histrionics.

More wild accusations that you can not substantiate Steve.
The police and the parliamentary authority do not act on lies, smears, exaggerations and stage-managed histrionics.

She is anti-Corbyn, but so are 80% of Labour MPs.

You're a solid member of the far right, remember?

No. I am a middle of the road former Labour voter, and hope to be again.

Because she's a liar who MAKES UP SHIT, she will not succeed. Obviously, you can't see it

The police and parliamentary authority can't see it either.
You wild accusations against this woman are the made up shit here Steve.

You are a troll for raising this dead issue yet again.
That would be Greg Steve.
And the Standard piece is all quotes of Smeeth. No editorial spin. It is genuine.

Jim,
Nobody has mounted a serious challenge to the events during that time other than the Israelis in the form of their own enquiry.

There is the israeli version of events, which is infinitely more credible than the wild propaganda you believe, and which all decent governments accept without question.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 03:30 AM

Still nothing but opinions - no evidence whatever to back up your claims.
The exaggeration of Jenin was exposed immediately - the facts of Sabra/Shatila have been a established for decades.
Nobody has mounted a serious challenge to the events during that time other than the Israelis in the form of their own enquiry.
Even the role the Americans played in covering up this massacre has been long established, by American Human Rights Groups - it's all been put up.
It is a matter of documented history, not opinion, certainly not yours.
You seem to be so egotistic (or simply too lazy or inept) to even bother putting up real evidence; you rely entirely on strutting bullying (rather like the somewhat inadequate Wizard of Oz who hid behind a screen with a large megaphone).
If you have anything new to add, do so.
The New Sports stadium is yet another smokescreen - it has been cited as a probable site for the bodies, nothing more.
It seems to be the only straw you have to grasp now that your bulldozers have driven off into the sunset.
If you have any evidence that this massacre didn't happen, or that the Israeli role wasn't as it has been described, or that Israeli didn't appoint the individual their own enquiry cited as being responsible, Prime Minister of Israel, and by doing so, giving their blessing for the massacre of 3,500 unarmed refugees, then present it.
So far, you have offered somewhat pathetic denials, with nothing whatever to back them up - nothing!
I really am not interested in your blustering opinions, but I would be fascinated if you produced a single scrap of evidence to back up your claims instead of your bullying and strutting bluster.
In the meantime, I'll quite happily accept your display of arrogant ignorance, after all, that's the image you seem happy to present to the world.
Carry on corporal.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 02:46 AM

Jim Carroll - 21 Sep 16 - 11:46 AM - If memory serves me correctly there were equally "convincing" stories told in the aftermath of the so-called "Jenin Massacre". The only thing that spoilt that particular attempt to smear Israel's reputation was that over the course of the following five months all those the IDF were accused of killing except for one turned up alive, safe and well. Yet Fatah apologists still yammer on about the hundreds "killed" or "murdered" by the IDF in Jenin. You are doing the same with regard to Sabra-Shatila, you are taking the highest possible body count that is always mentioned as being an unverified "estimate" then taking it as being a fact - plain truth is it is not a fact according to links you yourself have provided.

Bulldozer Jom;

Bulldozer



- Note it has a straight or slightly angled blade, it can push stuff but can't pick anything up

- Even if fitted with a scoop or a bucket, it has no means of tilting or tipping that scoop or bucket to empty it.

So back to the questions that you yourself should have asked had you been of an inquiring mind:

1: If as your "eye-witnesses" stated no Israelis entered the camps who was it operating these bulldozers?

2: As bulldozers are incapable of digging holes, who was it that dug these "secret" mass graves, when were they dug and what was used to dig them?

3: You claim, or believe claims that a "secret mass grave" exists in Beirut that contains the bodies of the majority of the 3,500 people you believe were slain. You believe that a Sports Stadium was built over this grave. The only stadium that could possibly be is the Camille Chamoun Stadium, here is some relevant information for you Jom -

"The stadium was completely demolished in the Israeli Invasion of 1982. Consequently, former Lebanese PM Rafic Hariri {1992 to 1998} initiated a project to rebuild the stadium in preparation for the 2000 AFC Asian Cup. The reconstruction received funding from the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, with a respective contribution of 20 Million and 5Million U.S. Dollars. The other 75 Million U.S. Dollars were provided by the Lebanese government. The renovation process of the bordering "Pierre Gemayel Hall" was also included in the overall project.

Designed by Laceco Architects & Engineers, the stadium spans 50,000 square meters of space with 77,000 square meters of covering roofs and seven kilometers of fences. A presidential gallery of 37 seats towers over the pitch, fenced off by bullet-proof glass. In addition to a 600 square meter parking lot was built underneath the stadium and another 20,000 square meter lot outside. The structure is capable of absorbing earthquakes up to 8.6 degree on the Richter scale. Moreover, administration offices, a complex for Lebanon's Olympic committee and various other sports federations, ultra-modern press centers, clinics to handle emergencies among players and spectators with a parking lot for ambulances and fire engines, have been built beneath the stands.

An indoors sports complex north to the stadium was built with a 3,300-strong spectator capacity for basketball, volleyball and gymnastics. This part was scheduled to be completed by 1998.

Kvarner, the contracting company, says that 25 British and 115 Lebanese engineers toiled along with 850 Lebanese and Arab workers to rebuild the sports city that was originally inaugurated by the late president Camille Chamoun in 1957.

After the reconstruction, the stadium hosted the 1997 pan Arab games where the Lebanese president Elias El Hrawi delivered an opening speech saying: "From Lebanon we say to the world; the Lebanese have returned to their heritage and unity, they have returned to build a Lebanon for heroes, youth and peace." The Lebanese PM also delivered a speech saying: "Construction won over destruction, and peace over war." Finally, the president of the Pan Arab Committee said: "This is a tournament of solidarity between the Lebanese people who have established credibility in their country and given rise to this great sporting event". "Bombs can destroy a city but can never shake the faith of believers." Additionally, the stadium was the main venue for the 1999 Arab Championship, the 2000 AFC Asian Cup, and recently the sixth Jeux de la Francophonie held from September 27 to October 3 of 2009.

In 2015, however, to serve the Lebanese team during the 2018 FIFA World Cup qualification, the stadium is once again rebuilt.

Still think that there is a "Secret Mass Grave" under this Sports Stadium - it is after all the only Sports Stadium in the vicinity of the Sabra-Shatila Camp.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Sep 16 - 04:28 PM

Ruth Smeeth is persecuting Corbyn, who she hates, with lies, smears, exaggerations and stage-managed histrionics. You know something Keith? You HATE the Labour Party. You LOVE to seek out the "liars," the "hypocrites," the "lefties," the "antisemites" and everyone else you think you can find negatives about. Yet when you think you've found someone, no matter who it is, no matter how much they lack principles, who says the slightest thing that suits your twisted and hateful agenda, you embrace them as if they've been your lifelong friend. Well Keith, she's LABOUR. Get it, Keith? She's one of your enemies. You're a solid member of the far right, remember? You can't have her. She's as nasty as everyone else in Labour to you, Keith! So why don't you just bugger off, you massive hypocrite. I repeat. Smeeth is a charlatan who is doing everything in her power to diss Corbyn. Because she's a liar who MAKES UP SHIT, she will not succeed. Obviously, you can't see it as you're politically totally blind. You have form on that score as we all know. Totally incapable of seeing two sides of any issue. You are a troll for raising this dead issue yet again. And PLEASE don't give me your bloody Evening Standard tabloid shite. I've laughed enough at you already and the corset shop is closed.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 21 Sep 16 - 03:54 PM

Not so, Bubo, but do keep up with the same old delusions.

This from Keith's link on Ruth Smeeth:

Given her previous work with Hope Against Hate, an anti-racism charity, "I initially assumed [the author] was from the far-Right. And then someone rang to inform me it was a Corbynista."

Same bigotry, different target - you're the one who's deluded. No surprise though as you identify with this group.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Sep 16 - 03:21 PM

Paste in this link.
http://www.standard.co.uk/lifestyle/london-life/ruth-smeeth-ive-never-seen-antisemitism-in-labour-like-this-its-normal-now-a3349201.html

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Sep 16 - 03:19 PM

Steve,
Ruth Smeeth is a charlatan, a liar

Can you substantiate your wild accusations?
No.
You are just running with the pack that is persecuting this woman.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Sep 16 - 01:56 PM

Not so, Bubo, but do keep up with the same old delusions. Makes it easier to ignore you.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 21 Sep 16 - 01:53 PM

Greg, alt-right/alt-left = two sides of the same coin.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Sep 16 - 01:53 PM

Same here. Evening bloody Standard anyway. Kind of glad I couldn't open it. Useless. Talk about scraping the barrel.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Sep 16 - 01:08 PM

Can't open the link, but it sounds like desperation to me
She is what she is, she consorts with and supports CORRUPT and PROMISCUOUS politicians like Netanyahu.
Would you buy a used car from this woman?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Sep 16 - 12:42 PM

Ruth Smeeth is a charlatan, a liar and an arch anti-Corbynite who is out to make trouble for him by any means, including foul. We have been over all this. You are out of order bringing this up again. You've already made yourself a laughing stock over this issue, so do yourself a favour and drop it.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Sep 16 - 12:18 PM

It does not compare to this

Correct, professor. Its infinately worse. I don't see any Labour members supporting White Supremecist groups and making jokes aboput The Holocaust.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Sep 16 - 11:46 AM

"So Jom 3,500 people were killed were they? - "
I produced evidence suggesting that was the figure - so far you have produced.... well.. denials.
You prove they weren't
The facts won't #go away by your wishing them to.
As I said, doesn't matter anyway - if it was 350 it would be mass-murder facilitated by Israel.
How did Bulldozers help bury bodies - probably the same as they did when they were photographed at Mecca removing the dead.
Or maybe the same way my old man did when he dug holes with the fitted scoop to bury the dredge from the Manchester Ship Canal.
Ten bulldozers were confirmed to have entered the site following whitewash
Didn't your boozing mate mention them - tut-tut??
These are not "my" claims - they have all been linked to reports.
You have provided nothing - and Keith continues
with his "Israel didn't do nuffin guv"
Not waving but drowning, as the poet said
Give us something solid, for cryin' out loud - the pair of you have long blown your credibility.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Sep 16 - 11:41 AM

No Greg. It does not compare to this (9 hours ago)

Ruth Smeeth: 'I've never seen anti-Semitism in Labour like this, it's normal now'

"Since then she has been called a "yid c***" (among other racial slurs), a "CIA/ MI5/Mossad informant"(see Jim's accusation of this too), a "dyke", and a "f***ing traitor". In all she's experienced more than 25,000 incidents of abuse, much of it racial. "

"And yet because of threats from her own party, Smeeth now has "security" — organised by the parliamentary authority and police. She can't give exact details but says she won't be going to Labour conference alone on Sunday. "

"I don't talk about Israel or Palestine. This [abuse] is not about anything I've said on Middle-East politics. I don't participate." She describes herself as "culturally Jewish" — her husband is Irish Catholic."
http://www.standard.co.uk/lifestyle/london-life/ruth-smeeth-ive-never-seen-antisemitism-in-labour-like-this-its-normal-now-a3349

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Sep 16 - 09:40 AM

Ya want anti-semitism, Bubo? Here's the real deal:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/21/us/politics/donald-trump-jr-skittles.html

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 16 Sep 16 - 07:30 AM

Once again facts and history trump propaganda and rhetoric.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Sep 16 - 04:52 AM

So Jom 3,500 people were killed were they? - PROVE IT ( None of the links you provided in your post Jim Carroll - 15 Sep 16 - 10:49 AM claims anything like that the only number they seem to mention was 300 for Sabra-Shatila and of course mention of the Jenin Massacre which of course we later learned never occurred)
.

Keith A has accurately given the verifiable numbers killed in addition to the most probable estimates. And HE HAS provided you with the sources to check the figures

It was sort of like the 1.5 million who were supposed to have been killed in Iraq, but of course we all know now that that was pure fantasy based on a particularly dodgy survey. IBC who did make the effort to verify details put the numbers at less than a tenth of that figure and attributed the majority of those killed as being killed by the insurgents.

You still haven't told us how a bulldozer can dig a mass grave Jom, and that IS what you said they did. None of your eye witnesses said that the Israelis entered the camps and if that is true how could they be inside the camps where all the killing was done driving bulldozers? Who was it dug the graves before the bulldozers arrived? What did they use to dig them? We know from your eye witnesses and accounts from the ICRC and the Lebanese that they did the clean up, yet for some reason best known to yourself you dismiss their accounts and their figures.

Neither have you come up with any reason why it was that in Muslim dominated Lebanon during the Syrian occupation of that country that this "secret" mass grave hidden beneath a Sports Stadium was not dug up to expose all these thousands that the IDF were supposed to have killed and buried? The obvious reason of course Jom is that no such "secret" mass grave exists and that your figure of 3,500 is a gross exaggeration and 100% propaganda.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Sep 16 - 09:27 PM

Benny Morris, in Israel's Secret Wars, stated that Israeli forces provided the bulldozers complete with link

He may have said that IDF provided equipment used to bury the massacred Palestinians, but to and under the supervision of ICRC after Phalange left. The author I quoted, and DID provide a link to, makes clear that Morris denies any involvement of Israelis in the massacre or supposed cover up.

in fact your non-link points out that the lowest figures for the massacre are those presented by Israel

No Jim.
Israel estimated 800.
" According to a document which reached us (exhibit 151), the total number of victims whose bodies were found from 18.9.82 to 30.9.82 is 460. This figure includes the dead counted by the Lebanese Red Cross,< the International Red Cross, the Lebanese Civil Defense, the medical corps of the Lebanese army, and by relatives of the victims. According to this count, the 460 victims included 109 Lebanese and 328 Palestinians, along with Iranians, Syrians and members of other nationalities. According to the itemization of the bodies in this list, the great majority of the dead were males;as for women and children, there were 8 Lebanese women and 12 Lebanese children, and 7 Palestinian women and 8 Palestinian children."

"the Red Cross also had a list of 359 persons who had disappeared in West Beirut between 18 August and 20 September, with most of the missing having disappeared from Sabra and Shatilla in mid-September."

That would give a total of 819, but there would be overlap of victims not identified, and some were not victims of the camp massacre.

your ludicrous statements about the flares.
Not ludicrous at all. The flares support Israel's version, not yours.

deliberately not linking it becase not only was it a lying claim by the accused (Israel),

I have linked. I just assumed you were aware of the Kahan Report and could read it.

You are now denying opinions gathered by Benny Morris's book

No. The problem is that neither of us has read it, but we do know that he denies any IDF collusion.
He is an historian, not a gatherer of opinions.

Change of subject.
No-one watching tonight's Question Time could ever deny that "Whither the Labour Party is a live issue!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 16 - 03:20 PM

"Benny Morris said they were there to hide the number of deaths
He did not.
One more time
"Benny Morris, in Israel's Secret Wars, stated that Israeli forces provided the bulldozers used to bury the massacred Palestinians.
complete with link
Ther are two more links to him having said the same.
You've been given the quote and the source
"Here is the easily found report of the Kahan Commission."
I've read the Kahan whitewash - in fact your non-link points out that the lowest figures for the massacre are those presented by Israel
"Sorry, but that is Israel's version of events"
Exactllt - and everything I have given contradicts Israel's version - as does the book you didn't link us to (deliberately)
No point in discussing with you pair of braindeads - you lie incessantly, you deny everything, and once again, you lie incessantly
The pair of you are a disgusting mess
You take up one thing - make stupid statements, them drop it (as you have your ludicrous statements about the flares.
Your dishonsty of attempting to produce something as fact, deliberately not linking it becase not only was it a lying claim by the accused (Israel), but the actual quote contains masses of evidence showing iIsrael to be everything I have claimed
That is lying - pure and simple.
You are now denying opinions gathered by Benny Morris's book
You mate seems to have pissed off to the pub to gather more evidence.
Might continue letting him humiliating himself tomorrow - you are just embarrassing.
It's like arguing with somebody with learning difficulties.
Christians - I've shit 'em!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Sep 16 - 02:29 PM

Benny Morris said they were there to hide the number of deaths
He did not.

Here is the easily found report of the Kahan Commission.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/kahan.html

From the same source

Maybe, but not from the actual Kahan Commission Report.

Kahan Commision report (unlinked, of course - I wonder why?) - hardly unbiased evidence

Sorry, but that is Israel's version of events and nothing you have found contradicts it.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 16 - 01:52 PM

"ICRC figures are less than Israel's!"
Your carefully unlinked statemment is just as carefully selected, hiding the fact that the bit you have carefully chosen is heavily disputed in the rest of the chapter and is no way a definitive statement
You have doctored it to make it appear fact, wnen it is actually the part of an arument
Which is, of course, why you didn't link it.
The rest of the book makes pretty interesting reading too!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 16 - 01:32 PM

Here is the exact situation over casualty numbers
C. Victims
The exact number of victims from the Sabra and Shatila massacre is not and will never be precisely known. Estimations have always varied widely between 700 to 3500. The lowest number (between 700 and 800 victims) has been produced by the IDF and was used by the Israeli Commission of inquiry, as « this may well be the number most closely corresponding to reality » (The Kahan Commisssion, 1983). The Lebanese authorities published higher figures in the middle of October 1982. According to official sources, casualties reached the number of 2 000, and are divided as follows: 762 identified corpses have been buried by the Lebanese army or the Red Cross, whereas 1200 others have been buried by families on their own initiative and registered with the Red Cross.
The Lebanese historian Bayan al-Hout (2004) conducted fieldwork between 1982 and 1984 on casualties in Sabra and Shatila. She identified 1390 cases: 906 dead and 484 "missing".
Amnon Kapeliouk, an Israeli journalist, worked on a reconstitution of the events soon after the slaughter. He based his personal inquiry upon primary sources, such as testimonies, IDF archives and declarations, press reports, evidences gathered by the Israeli Commission of inquiry, etc. and published the results of his research in 1982: Sabra and Shatila. Inquiry Into a Massacre (Sabra et Chatila: enquéte sur un massacre], which became a reference book.
In A. Kapeliouk's opinion, the number of victims reached 3 000 - 3 500. He added to the 2000 death formally listed and recognized by the Lebanese authorities three other kinds of victims:
-* Those who were buried in mass graves dug up by the assailants and whose bodies have not been brought up;
-* Those who died under the ruins of their houses;
-* The "missing" who were taken alive to unknown destinations and never returned. According to the Red Cross, the number of the "missing" reached 359 between the 18th and the 20th of September.
No estimation of the number of injured was given, but cases of mutilation are numerous.

SOURCE

From the same source
On the morning of Friday the 17th, new Phalangists' units entered the camps. At the height of the
assault, the militiamen were about 400. The killing went on all day long with its share of summary
executions, house demolitions, and looting of private goods such as money or jewellery. Corpses
were lying on the streets, abandoned under ruins or bulldozed in mass graves. Witnesses saw many
inhabitants piled up onto trucks and driven outside the camps to unknown destinations. Nobody
knows what became of them. They are the "missing" of the Sabra and Shatila massacre.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 16 - 01:07 PM

"No. Siegel said she only saw one. None were found to be burying bodies unless they were being used by ICRC."
You've had numerous statements referring to the number and what they were doing
Benny Morris saif they were there to hide the number of deaths - what's he a "self hating Jew!?
"The letter (exhibit 153) of the head of the Red Cross "
Kahan Commision report (unlinked, of course - I wonder why?) - hardly unbiased evidence
You have the estimates, including those done by an Israeli Journalist who attempted to count them
Pa-thet-ic - even by your standards
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Sep 16 - 12:44 PM

Keith has refused to respond to the actual accusations of what Israel did

I have responded to all your ludicrous accusation!
AGAIN, SAY WHAT YOU THINK I HAVE MISSED AND I WILL RESPOND!

Israel said there was one bulldozer to clear up the rubble - there were found to be ten burying bodies.

No. Siegel said she only saw one. None were found to be burying bodies unless they were being used by ICRC.

Israel's record on keeping score on how many civilians they slaughtered is abominable - go and compare their claims with the actual figures.

ICRC figures are less than Israel's!

" The letter (exhibit 153) of the head of the Red Cross delegation to the Minister of Defense stated that Red Cross representatives had counted 328 bodies. This figure, however, does not include all the bodies, since it is known that a number of families buried bodies on their own initiative without reporting their actions to the Red Cross. The forces who engaged in the operation removed bodies in trucks when they left Shatilla, and it is possible that more bodies are lying under the ruins in the camps or in the graves that were dug by the assailants near the camps. The letter noted that the Red Cross also had a list of 359 persons who had disappeared in West Beirut between 18 August and 20 September, with most of the missing having disappeared from Sabra and Shatilla in mid-September. According to a document which reached us (exhibit 151), the total number of victims whose bodies were found from 18.9.82 to 30.9.82 is 460. This figure includes the dead counted by the Lebanese Red Cross, the International Red Cross, the Lebanese Civil Defense, the medical corps of the Lebanese army, and by relatives of the victims. According to this count, the 460 victims included 109 Lebanese and 328 Palestinians, along with Iranians, Syrians and members of other nationalities. According to the itemization of the bodies in this list, the great majority of the dead were males; as for women and children, there were 8 Lebanese women and 12 Lebanese children, and 7 Palestinian women and 8 Palestinian children. Reports from Palestinian sources speak of a far greater number of persons killed, sometimes even of thousands. With respect to the number of victims, it appears that we can rely neither on the numbers appearing in the document from Lebanese sources, nor on the numbers originating in Palestinian sources. A further difficulty in determining the number of victims stems from the fact that it is difficult to distinguish between victims of combat operations and victims of acts of slaughter. We cannot rule out the possibility that various reports included also victims of combat operations from the period antedating the assassination of Bashir. Taking into account the fact that Red Cross personnel counted no more that 328 bodies, it would appear that the number of victims of the massacre was not as high as a thousand, and certainly not thousands.
According to I.D.F. intelligence sources, the number of victims of the massacre is between 700 and 800 (testimony of the director of Military Intelligence, pp. 139-140). "

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Sep 16 - 12:28 PM

""The implication is that the [Israeli Defense Forces] deliberately aided the killers," Morris writes. "This is essentially untrue." As proof, he references the Kahan Commission of Inquiry, which—he claims—comes to the conclusion that the Israeli army had been unaware that a massacre was taking place and that "when awareness finally dawned, it intervened and stopped it. "
http://nationalinterest.org/feature/what-benny-morris-gets-wrong-about-my-book-11601

The ICRC supervised the burials, and it may well be that the IDF supplied them with equipment to bury the bodies.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 16 - 12:22 PM

How about responding to what has been said about the Bulldozers - including by a prominent and respected Israeli historian, instead of trying to throw up yet another smokescreen
Keith has refused to respond to the actual accusations of what Israel did - wanna try your luck?
No
Thought not.
I concede that my "sham" evidence has been overwhelmingly proved to be just that - whoops - sorry, you have yet to put up any (except from your mate at closing time!!!)
Stop bullshitting and dogdging behind something that is not being disputed Answer the points
If my evidence is "sham" - disprove it with some of your own.
Jim Carroll

Israel said there was one bulldozer to clear up the rubble - there were found to be ten burying bodies.
Israel's record on keeping score on how many civilians they slaughtered is abominable - go and compare their claims with the actual figures.
According to the Israeli military, the official count was 700 people killed while Israeli journalist, Amnon Kapeliouk put the figure at 3,500.
"In his book published soon after the massacre,[77] the Israeli journalist Amnon Kapeliouk of Le Monde Diplomatique, arrived at about 2,000 bodies disposed of after the massacre from official and Red Cross sources and "very roughly" estimated 1,000 to 1,500 other victims disposed of by the Phalangists themselves to a total of 3,000–3,500."

Gaza 2015
"In its most recent count, the U.N. Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs reports that 2,104 Palestinians were killed in Gaza, including 1,462 civilians, among them 495 children and 253 women. Those U.N. numbers would mean that 69 percent of the total killed were civilians.
By contrast, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said this week that Israeli forces­ had killed "approximately 1,000 terrorists," which would mean that far fewer of the 2,104 Palestinian dead were civilians — roughly 52 percent.
Israeli military forces­ pride themselves on being "the most moral army in the world." The Palestinians say Israeli bombardment was frequently indiscriminate or directed at targets where the risk of civilian casualties was high.
In Israel, critics charge that the U.N. numbers are inaccurate and biased, in part because the United Nations bases its reports on numbers generated by human rights groups working in Gaza, which they say cannot be trusted."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Sep 16 - 11:52 AM

Oh dear, oh dear Jim, in a couple of those links of yours you have your sources still rabbiting on about the alleged massacre at Jenin that we all now definitely know never happened, a story founded and based on deliberate lies told by the Palestinians.

Nowhere in any of that sham "evidence" does it state that 3,500 people were killed, nowhere in any of that sham "evidence" does it state that Israelis killed anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 16 - 10:49 AM

Whoops - premature ejaculation
Start again.
"He has never said any such thing! Where do you get this shit?"
I don't suppose you intend either to withdraw this or apologise for the accusation but the quote came from here (too large to blue clickie, I suspect
https://books.google.ie/books?id=ltg-UV-ddDgC&pg=PA152&lpg=PA152&dq=Benny+Morris,+in+Israel%27s+Secret+Wars,+stated+that+Israeli+forces+provided+the+bulldozers+used+to+bury+the+massacred+Palestinians.&source=bl&ots=w1gPnpm1Rn&sig=vKmNVuVFUapjMbsLLJqVNu4ReUo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiNkYGLxpHPAhXJAcAKHfZdBa4Q6AEIGzAA#v=onepage&q=Benny%20Morris%2C%20in%20Israel's%20Secret%20Wars%2C%20stated%20that%20Israeli%20forces%20provided%20the%20bulldozers%20used%20to%20bury%20the%20massacred%20Palestinians.&f=false
The information is repeated here - also too large to clickie - that qoote was
"The Israeli writer Benny Morris alleges that the IDF provided bulldozers to bury as many dead as possible so as to lessen the grim impact of the event."
https://books.google.ie/books?id=-wwPNjSnxcYC&pg=PA644&lpg=PA644&dq=Benny+Morris+on+Sabra+Bulldozers&source=bl&ots=rqSBTI6geU&sig=VF7jO3o35b0b-HB1i9ggsDucIxY&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjw79KGxZHPAhWFLsAKHUh8AVYQ6AEIGzAA#v=onepage&q=Benny%20Morris%20on%20Sabra%20Bulldozers&f=false

And here
Benny Morris, in Israel's Secret Wars, stated that Israeli forces provided the bulldozers used to bury the massacred Palestinians.
Bulldozers

The same information is here
"They dug a big hole in the ground. I saw them filling it in today. They had a big bulldozer pushing dirt in on top of it."
Eye witness account

Ang Swee's statement
I worked in Gaza Hospital in Sabra Shatilla during the massacre trying to save the lives of a few dozen people, but outside the hospital hundreds were killed. My patients and I knew that Sharon and his officers were in control, and without them the massacre would not be possible. The residents of Sabra Shatilla could at least have escaped. Now more than 30 years later, we know that the killers were brought in by Israeli armoured cars and tanks, obeyed Israeli commands, their paths lit by Israeli military flares, and some of them also wore Israeli uniforms. The mutilated bodies of the victims were thrown into mass graves by Israeli bulldozers.
Eye Witness account

Fortunately for the physician, by about 5 P.M. Friday, an International Red Cross convoy made it to the hospital and evacuated everyone left there. The doctor said that at about 5:30 P.M., as he was leaving the facility for safety, he saw at the southern end of Shatila what he estimated to be 80 to 90 bodies. They had been mixed together with sand and were being pushed by bulldozers.
Eye witness doctor

How much more information do you want before you provide a shred of your own?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 16 - 10:11 AM

"He has never said any such thing! Where do you get this shit?"
I don't suppose you intend either to withdraw this or apologise for the accusation but the quote came from here (too large to blue clickie, I suspect
https://books.google.ie/books?id=ltg-UV-ddDgC&pg=PA152&lpg=PA152&dq=Benny+Morris,+in+Israel%27s+Secret+Wars,+stated+that+Israeli+forces+provided+the+bulldozers+used+to+bury+the+massacred+Palestinians.&source=bl&ots=w1gPnpm1Rn&sig=vKmNVuVFUapjMbsLLJqVNu4ReUo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiNkYGLxpHPAhXJAcAKHfZdBa4Q6AEIGzAA#v=onepage&q=Benny%20Morris%2C%20in%20Israel's%20Secret%20Wars%2C%20stated%20that%20Israeli%20forces%20provided%20the%20bulldozers%20used%20to%20bury%20the%20massacred%20Palestinians.&f=false
The informantion is repeated here - alos too large to clickie - that qoote was
https://books.google.ie/books?id=-wwPNjSnxcYC&pg=PA644&lpg=PA644&dq=Benny+Morris+on+Sabra+Bulldozers&source=bl&ots=rqSBTI6geU&sig=VF7jO3o35b0b-HB1i9ggsDucIxY&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjw79KGxZHPAhWFLsAKHUh8AVYQ6AEIGzAA#v=onepage&q=Benny%20Morris%20on%20Sabra%20Bulldozers&f=false

And here
Benny Morris, in Israel's Secret Wars, stated that Israeli forces provided the bulldozers used to bury the massacred Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Sep 16 - 10:03 AM

" There, the bulldozer started digging. "

HOW???

C'mon Jim explain to us how a bulldozer digs a mass grave - you obviously believe it, simply because someone said it did - so you should be able to tell us how it is done.

A Bulldozer

An Excavator Jom - That CAN dig holes

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Sep 16 - 09:43 AM

The use of bulldozers were reported on by witnesses
The fact that they were used is not disputed.

Yes, and?

There is no evidence for Israelis burying bodies. The Phalange may well have buried or trucked some out, but not hundreds without leaving a trace.

Report of the Kahan commission enquiry Lewiston Daily Sun Nov 2nd 1982
The commission members questioned them closely on evidence that could have implied Israeli Involvement
The witnesses said they saw as many as 10 bulldozers working in the Chatilla camp as they were led out of the area Saturday morning Sept. 18. Israeli officers acknowledged allowing entry of only one bulldozer, for clearing rubble.
It was later learned that the bulldozers were being used to hide evidence of the massacre and dig mass graves.
Ms. Siegel said she saw three bulldozers, each marked with a single Hebrew letter, which could have been an Israeli army Insignia.

None of that is true except that one dozer was supplied to clear rubble.
Why not look at the actual commission report instead of the Lewiston Daily Sun?!


Benny Morris, in Israel's Secret Wars, stated that Israeli forces provided the bulldozers used to bury the massacred Palestinians.

He has never said any such thing! Where do you get this shit?

Neither of your two witness reports implicate Israelis! What is your point??

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 16 - 08:20 AM

"You are the complete and utter prat
And you are an atrocity denying idiot.
The use of bulldozers were reported on by witnesses
The fact that they were used is not disputed
You are making statements based on an (apparently) drunken conversation dahn the pub - where is your evidence?
Are you and your drinking buddy going to make similar denials about
bulldozers being used to dig mass graves in former Yugoslavia, or at Auschwits, or after the Haj disaster in Mecca (photographed)
How much evidence are you going to continue to deny and when are you going to supply some of your own?
Jim Carroll

Report of the Kahan commission enquiry Lewiston Daily Sun Nov 2nd 1982
The commission members questioned them closely on evidence that could have implied Israeli Involvement
The witnesses said they saw as many as 10 bulldozers working in the Chatilla camp as they were led out of the area Saturday morning Sept. 18. Israeli officers acknowledged allowing entry of only one bulldozer, for clearing rubble.
It was later learned that the bulldozers were being used to hide evidence of the massacre and dig mass graves.
Ms. Siegel said she saw three bulldozers, each marked with a single Hebrew letter, which could have been an Israeli army Insignia.

Benny Morris, in Israel's Secret Wars, stated that Israeli forces provided the bulldozers used to bury the massacred Palestinians.

In the 2005 Swiss-French-German-Lebanese co-produced documentary Massaker six former Lebanese Forces soldiers who participated personally in the massacre stated there was direct Israeli participation. One of them said that he saw Israeli soldiers driving bulldozers into inhabited houses inside the camp. Another said that Israeli soldiers provided the Lebanese Forces soldiers with material to dispose of the corpses lying around in the streets.
Benny Morris is Israel's leading official historian on Israeli conflict

Eye witness account given to the BBC by a British witness:
1982: Sabra and Shatila - after the atrocity
Deborah Thornton-Jackson was married to a Lebanese businessman. They lived in Beirut with their young family during the 1970s and 1980s.
In September 1982, Israel invaded Lebanon, and a Christian Lebanese militia massacred hundreds of Palestinians living in the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps.
After the atrocity, Deborah drove to a hospital in Gaza to help tend to the wounded and dying.
I spent 20 years in the Lebanon - first going out there in 1969 as an air stewardess. I later married a Christian Lebanese named Elie.
We lived in Beirut. On and off I would leave when the situation got bad, when it got too hot to handle. I would have to get the girls out, our children, back to safety.
Some of the things I experienced were traumatic. I find it very hard sometimes to recount the shocking events that took place and one in particular - the Israeli invasion in 1982. I've buried an awful lot.
The night that the Israelis actually came in and surrounded the camps, we were at our villa in East Beirut, on the Christian side.
Aircraft came over periodically during the day flying low and showing their presence with a few bombs which created a lot of smoke.
Then we heard that the Phalangists had actually gone into the camps and that the Israelis had more or less surrounded them.
There were flares in the sky which we could see that lit up the surrounding area. We knew what they were doing.
I just felt I had to go and help these people. I had a tremendous sympathy for the Palestinian people at that time, which my husband could never understand.
Children, women, animals, anything that moved - they had massacred
I had a friend who was a Palestinian doctor. He worked at Gaza Hospital which is in between the camps of Sabra and Shatila.
On the Saturday (18 September) I got in my little Renault 5 and I went own to downtown Beirut as I had known it.
I went to Gaza Hospital to see Khalid the doctor friend of mine, and see if they needed any help.
The scenes at Gaza Hospital were just horrendous. It was panic, absolute panic, there were people running everywhere.
I said: "Look I have a training of first aid, that's all. If I can help I would love to."
They said anybody was welcome that could tie a bandage or put a plaster on.
What will always stick in my memory is of a little boy that had come from the camps, and his little body had no limbs.
I can remember just holding him, holding his little body close. He was covered with blood and the life was running out of him. He was crying for his mother.
The next day, I went back. I think Elie was terribly angry with me for doing this. His opinion was to rid Beirut of the "rubbish", as he would put it, of the Palestinian people. We would have endless arguments about this.
I went into the camps with the Red Cross but too late. Nobody had been allowed in.
Bulldozers had gone in to bury bodies. They had also bulldozed buildings with people still inside, families still watching television, or having dinner.
They bulldozed these people. They massacred these people. I saw bodies, piles of bodies, heaped up, mutilated, and believe me they hadn't been shot.
It was like a scene from what I would have imagined happened in World War Two to the Jews. They had been executed.
Children, women, animals, anything that moved - they had massacred.
The Phalangists that I spoke to afterwards - they enjoyed doing what they had done.
What could I say? Were they going to listen to me? I said to them: "How can you justify what you've done?"
It was horror in there, it was horror. The stench, the massacre. They are war crimes.
But I shall certainly never forget. Of all the horrors and atrocities, and of the many things that have happened to me when I was in Beirut, nothing can come close to what I witnessed in these camps. Nothing.

Eye witness account by a woman on the scene
".. they had put the men on one side and the women on the other… The armed men ordered us to walk in front, and the men behind. We walked like this until we got to the communal grave. There, the bulldozer started digging. Among us was a man who was wearing a white nurse's shirt; they called him and filled him with bullets in front of everyone. The women started screaming. The Israelis posted in front of the Kuwaiti embassy and in front of the Rihab station requested through loudspeakers that we be handed over to them. That's how we found ourselves in their hands. They took us to the Sports Centre, and the men were supposed to walk behind us. But they took the men's shirts off and started blindfolding them. At the Sports Centre, the Israelis submitted the young people to an interrogation, and the Phalangists delivered 200 people to them. And that's how neither my husband nor my sister's husband ever came back." Sana Mahmoud Sersawi

Now - apart from your conversation dahn the pub WHERE ARE YOUR WITNESSES - WHERE IS YOUR DOCUMENTED EVIDENCE?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Sep 16 - 07:25 AM

You have produced nothing other than denials

You have produced nothing but ludicrous accusations.

Your pathetic claim of "decent nations" is imbecilic.

My claim that no decent democracy holds Israel responsible for that massacre is a straight fact that you deny but can produce no example of.

Teribus' claim had any basis, Israel would have put it forward decades ago?

They did. They held an enquiry. Nurse Siegel and other staff from the hospital testified at it and ICRC was part of it. (ICRC did the burials.)

the "decent democratic" world would be up on its feet in protest at the massive injustice being done to Gallant Little Israel by accusing them of these crimes.

No, because no-one takes such ludicrous propaganda seriously, except people like you.

You have been given a list of what Israel did to 3,500 unarmed refugees - all backed up by researched and fully accepted facts

No we have not. Just ludicrous unsubstantiated propaganda.

You refuse to respond to them

Completely untrue. My recent posts have been uncharacteristically long because I have included point by point rebuttals of all your claims.

If you think I have missed one, just let me know. I have asked you to do that so many times but you have never been able to think of one!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 16 - 06:24 AM

Piss of Keith
You have produced nothing other than denials - nothing
Your pathetic claim of "decent nations" is imbecilic.
Aren't the perpetrators of the Tianamen Square massacre involved in building Britain a nuclear power station?
Didn't the British Prime Minister pay his respects to the late patriarch of Saudi Arabia while a protester was being administered 1,000 lashes for speaking his mind?
Don't we sell weapons to human rights monsters?
What ****** planet do you live on.?
Hasn't it occurred to your equally moronic mate that if his dahn the pub mate's claim had any basis, Israel would have put it forward decades ago?
Instead - the claim comes from your little two- man(sort of) pro-Israeli propaganda Roneo duplicator machine.
Taking your own argument to its logical conclusion - if Israel is as innocent as you claim, the "decent democratic" world would be up on its feet in protest at the massive injustice being done to Gallant Little Israel by accusing them of these crimes.
Isnstead THEY ARE SILENT JUST AS THEY ARE DOING DEALS WITH THE TIANAMEN SQUARE PERPETRATORS, OR ATTENDING THE FUNERALS OF DESPOTS - OR SELLING ARMS TO MONSTERS
Britain has as shaky a reputation on human rights as has America - two massacres in the 20th century - both on a (Bloody) Sunday.
We locked up six innocent men for seventeen years, knowing they were innocent.
Thatcher described the mass murder, torture and rape of young Chilean protesters as "democracy" and described those who attempted to bring the perpetrator to justice as "running a police state".
It will ve interesting to see the outcome of the now considered enquiry into Orgreave (no question of which side you will be on there)
Your defence of mass murder is a disgrace and it is all your own work
The pair of you are putting up arguments in defence of Israel that they have not even thought of.
You have been given a list of what Israel did to 3,500 unarmed refugees - all backed up by researched and fully accepted facts
You refuse to respond to them but instead, offer your own (nobody else's) denial of the whole affair
What kind of person does that??
You want to disprove those facts - produce verified evidence - nobody denies them other than you, in many cases, not even the Israelis
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Sep 16 - 05:45 AM

The thread title is "(UK)Whither the Labour Party" Shaw and we haven't even got onto Vaz yet.

Come on Jim tell us all what you have to do to dig a Mass Grave in an urban environment with a Bulldozer - a piece of machinery that has been specifically designed to push and level NOT dig.

You are the complete and utter prat who is claiming not only that IT WAS done BUT DONE IN SECRET with the world and it's dog looking on. Yet for some reason you cannot tell us how it was done - not very good on practicalities or detail are you Carroll? Your bigotry and biased perspective overcomes reason and common sense and allows you to swallow hook-line-and-sinker any anti-Israeli line fed to you. Don't you ever question any of it, or are you just gullible?

Your eye-witness as I have stated actually witnessed very little happening.

And Shaw nobody had posted to the thread because of the questions being asked and points being raised that cast doubt on you and your pals take on things.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Sep 16 - 04:39 AM

Jim,
contradicts the official, researched (or witnessed) accounts,

There are no such " official, researched accounts" to contradict (you have found none!), and we know that false eye witnesses can be produced to say whatever they are told.

"made-up-shit
The response to that accusation should be to substantiate the shit, but you can't.

Steve, "whither the Labour Party" is very much a live issue today.
You and Jim have tried to stifle that discussion by dredging up incidents in Lebanon 34 years ago!

On Question Time with the 2 leadership contenders, Smith spoke of the "problem" of antisemitism in the Party, and claimed that most Jewish members did not regard Chakrabarti's report as adequate, and it had not treated the issue seriously.
Corbyn said he was aware of suspensions before he became leader, and had received reports of antisemitic statements and behaviour at Party events.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 16 - 03:54 AM

"Now I asked a pal of mine who operates heavy plant machinery about this and his answer prompts me to ask you yet another question that you will no doubt ignore Jom:"
Oh no - not more unsubstatiated crap
Ho many pints had you both had?
So we scrap the documented eye witness evidence on the word of two piss-artists at closing time dahn the local?
Don't think so - do you.
Might as well have dug up my old man and asked him - he drove a bulldozer all his life - he even appempted to teach me to drive one when I was a youngster!!
For crying out loud - if you have any evidence which contradicts the official, researched (or witnessed) accounts, give it.
'Couldn't have happened because we don't know ho many died' or "my mate told me...." doesn't hack it.
Your arguments have been dead in the water for decades - it happened as it is documented to have happened - end of story.
It wasn't unique - it was one of many atrocities carried out by Israel, in fact it was the most blatant and the largest.
And no - it doesn't matter that others were - and ar guilty of carrying out the same.
It was a crime against humanity facilitated and participated in by a terrorist state against a mass of unarmed civilian men, women and children The crime went unpunished and the leading perpetrator was appointed Prime Minister, tuning that crime from a military one into one perpetrated, condoned by the state, which attempted to cover it up.
All your blustering bullshit and your arrogant goosestepping doesn't alter that one iota - but it does serve to expose you and the silly little caricature of a man that you are.
I have no problem recognising "evidence", which it why I am aware that you have never produced any, you have refused to do so, it seems, on principle.
The few times you have attempted to do so, your "evidence" has crumbled to dust.
Go and ask your mates dahn the pub what they think of that - but best wait to around closing time.
Where is your documented evidence for any of this "made-up-shit of yours?
"Now I asked a pal of mine ".........
Has to be the best yet - really has made my day - better even than ' "we don't kno how many were killed'.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 16 - 08:02 PM

What I get is that you can't see when a thread has died the bloody death. I mean, no-one bothering with it for over 24 hours. There it was, languishing at the very bottom of the thread list, poised to drop out of sight, but you just couldn't resist it, could you. It isn't even a sleeping dog. It's a dead dog. Let it lie. Or a dead horse, so flog it not. Or a dead donkey, so drop it. It's boring, Woodcock. Boring. I no longer have an arse because this thread has bored it off me. Move on, old boy, move on.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Sep 16 - 07:29 PM

Labour MP Complains Of Bullying After Corbyn's Team Names 'Abusive' MPs

"An unnamed Labour MP has complained to the chief whip about bullying after Jeremy Corbyn's team issued a roll call of MPs it claims have abused the leader and his allies.

Earlier on Wednesday, the list was issued of 13 MPs that the leader's office accused of being abusive.

It included vocal backbencher Jess Phillips for telling Corbyn's ally Diane Abbott to "fuck off", MP John Woodcock for dismissing the party leader as a "fucking disaster" and former Shadow Education Secretary Tristram Hunt for describing Labour as "in the shit".

Get where I'm coming from Shaw??

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Sep 16 - 07:21 PM

Trying, or hoping to "bury" the evidence Shaw?

Taking some of the idiotic claims that you and your pals have tried to float - not really surprised - your "tell" is showing again - am I getting to you? Too many sensible questions that you and your pals cannot answer? I mean all those about secret mass graves under sports stadiums that could have been excavated about a hundred times over the past decade to totally discredit Israel but yet haven't - wonder why? Could the reason possibly be that everything that Jim is wittering on about is a complete and utter load of SH 1 T {Wouldn't be the first time would it?}

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 16 - 06:17 PM

No-one's posted to this deadly thread for over 24 hours, Woodcock. Why the hell are you bothering? No, really?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Sep 16 - 05:50 PM

Oh by the way Jom all that being taken as read how do you keep it all secret? The answer is of course you couldn't.

Which leads to far greater credence being placed on the 17 or so accounts of what happened that put the death toll at something in the order of 1,200 to 1,300 and not the 3,500 that you claim, horrendous enough but not one single person killed by anyone from the IDF - yet they are the people that you blame. Care to tell us why Jom? Anything to do with your bias and your bigotry?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Sep 16 - 05:42 PM

"She reported seeing the bulldozers on the site - the help with digging the graves is a known fact" - Jim Carroll

Now I asked a pal of mine who operates heavy plant machinery about this and his answer prompts me to ask you yet another question that you will no doubt ignore Jim:

Explain to us all how you would use a bulldozer to excavate a mass grave?

His take on the problem was as follows:

The area you would require would be massive.

You could only do it by "scuffing" the earth and that would take an eternity to transition into and out of the hole until you reach your target depth.

You would have to keep stopping and starting to clear and reposition the spoil heap. You would have to reposition all the spoil to fill in any hole.

That he said would be difficult enough in open fields - in a built up area in the centre of a city? Impossible.

That Jim is why when carrying out earthworks professional construction engineers use "Excavators" for digging holes NOT bulldozers - for a mass grave Jim you do need a hole don't you?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Sep 16 - 02:31 PM

Then Israel have admitted supplying illumination
Yes.
so the killing could continue day and night
No.

The massacre could not have happened without Israel's co-operation

What co-operation?

Israel was fully aware of what was going on and were in contact with the murderers

No evidence for that.

Israel supplied bulldozers to bury the bodies

No evidence for that.

"Firing was coming out of the camp before Phalange went in."
No reports ever suggested this

Israeli reports did.

There is no evidence for any of the rest of your claims either.

Appointing the man they found culpable of mass murder Prime minister

No-Israeli was found "culpable of mass murder."

asisting to bury the bodies

The ICRC and families did that. Israelis played no part.

Building a new stadium over the mass graves so the death toll would never be known

No evidence. Laughable.

I think we're finished here - don't you?

You are!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Sep 16 - 02:21 PM

"In the face of masses of evidence you have been given, eye witness accounts, press reports, inquiries, you say no evidence of Israel's culpability in the massacre has been produced"

1: Carroll you wouldn't recognise what actually does fall into what is acceptable as "Evidence" if it jumped up and bit you.

2: Judging by what she herself has written your Jewish "eye witness" actually saw very little, much of what she does claim would be classified as hearsay and surmise - not admissible as "evidence".

3: Press reports are notoriously inaccurate, biased and unreliable - not evidence.

4: Inquiries? Kahan Commission stated that Israel was indirectly responsible, MacBride Inquiry stated that Israel was Probably" indirectly responsible - probably infers a fair degree of what in an English Court of law would constitute "Reasonable Doubt" in any criminal action. So here we have the Israeli Inquiry into the events at Sabra-Shatila more damning than the International Inquiry. There have been no thorough investigations undertaken into the events at Sabra-Shatila, the Lebanese put a cap on them and forbade any investigations. Your figure of 3,500 dead is an unverified guestimate at best, certainly not the authenticated, verified and documented figure that you originally put forward. Your sports stadium with it's "secret" mass grave has been sitting there for anybody to examine for decades - tell us why it has not been opened and examined?

5: Keith A is perfectly correct no cast iron solid evidence of Israeli involvement has ever been produced and no rock solid irrefutable evidence has ever been offered up that shows them to be directly responsible for what happened. The UN wanted the IDF out of Beirut and out of South Lebanon, to comply with this the IDF therefore had to hand over to someone, the largest faction to had over to were the coalition of militias known as the "Lebanese Forces". When Arafat scuttled out of the Lebanon he was supposed to have taken ALL of his "fighters" with him - he didn't.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 16 - 01:27 PM

"It is evidence."#Then you lied whan yo claimed I had produced no evidence.
"it is entirely consistent with Israel's version of events. "
Then Israel have admitted supplying illumination so the killing could continue day and night
You lied
The massacre could not have happened without Israel's co-operation
You lied.
Israel was fully aware of what was going on and were in contact with the murderers
You lied
Israel supplied bulldozers to bury the bodies
You lied
"Firing was coming out of the camp before Phalange went in."
No reports ever suggested this
You lied
Your whole defence is a pack of lies, inventions and distortions.
You have been given a list of Israel's providing the transport
Providing the weapons
opening the gates
providing illumination to assist the killing
turning back victims attempting to escape the massacre
asisting to bury the bodies
providing transport to allow the killers to escape
Building a new stadium over the mass graves so the death toll would never be known
Appointing the man they found culpable of mass murder Prime minister
You have feebly attempted to excuse the illumination with nonsensical excuses - apart from that, you have ignored every other point
You claimed to have answered them all
You lied
I think we're finished here - don't you?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Sep 16 - 12:34 PM

If Ellen Seigal's eye witness statement isn't "evidence" - what is it.

It is evidence. I have it in front of me and it is entirely consistent with Israel's version of events.

If Robert Fisk's account of the massacre based on his own researches isn't "evidence" what is it.

When he entered the camp he saw nothing to implicate Israel. By his "researches" you mean talking to Palestinians months later, who like the ones from Jenin say what they are told to say.

If the report of the McBride enquiry isn't evidence - what is it?
It is evidence, but it failed to find Israel directly responsible.

You lied.

Same old mantra Jim, but you can not find a single quote to justify it, even though I keep requesting one.

You have been given an account of the massacre accepted by all other than the Israeli regime and its supporters

.... and all liberal democracies. "Accepted by all" enemies of Israel!

You continue to make pathetic claims about how the massacre was carried out and why illumination was necessary for it to continue over three nights.

TWO NIGHTS!! Were there flares on the second night? There was no third night. Look it up Jim.
Flares are needed for military operations but are quite superfluous for random murder in a crowded camp.

You have not produced one single account which contradicts those claims

Yes I have. Siegel and Fiske. I quoted both. You have produced nothing until now.

other than those made by the Israeli perpetrators

I have quoted no Israelis. You lie.

This massacre could not happened without Israel's active participation under the command of Ariel Sharon, Amos Yaron, and others. Israel prevented terrified residents from leaving, they supplied the flares to the Phalange in order to light up neighborhoods so they could find their victims, they lent a bulldozer to help bury bodies, they were in communication with the murderers, and they could see what was going on in the camps.
Ellen Seigal

That is her opinion but nothing she saw or said in her testimony supports that view.

" there was no doubt in my mind that the Israeli Defence Forces officials and soldiers, using sophisticated binoculars, could clearly see what was happening in those camps.
Ellen Seigal

Perhaps she thinks sophisticated binoculars can see through walls.
She was unable to see anything even from the roof of the hospital deep within the camp.

you claim "It does not implicate Israelis in the massacre"

Her testimony which she gave to the Kahan Commission, and her journal from the time, records nothing to implicate Israelis.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 16 - 11:54 AM

If Ellen Seigal's eye witness statement isn't "evidence" - what is it.
If Robert Fisk's account of the massacre based on his own researches isn't "evidence" what is it.
If the report of the McBride enquiry isn't evidence - what is it?
You said I had not produced evidence - I produced these and much much more
You lied.
You have been given an account of the massacre accepted by all other than the Israeli regime and its supporters - those accounts include people who were there - several Jews included.
You continue to make pathetic claims about how the massacre was carried out and why illumination was necessary for it to continue over three nights.
You have not produced one single account which contradicts those claims other than those made by the Israeli perpetrators and those directly imlpicated as active supporters. - not one - not even from your "decent, democratic nations.
It is all your own work.
"I have it in front of me. It does not implicate Israelis in the massacre"
This massacre could not happened without Israel's active participation under the command of Ariel Sharon, Amos Yaron, and others. Israel prevented terrified residents from leaving, they supplied the flares to the Phalange in order to light up neighborhoods so they could find their victims, they lent a bulldozer to help bury bodies, they were in communication with the murderers, and they could see what was going on in the camps.
Ellen Seigal
You lied
" there was no doubt in my mind that the Israeli Defence Forces officials and soldiers, using sophisticated binoculars, could clearly see what was happening in those camps.
Ellen Seigal
You lied
The Palestinians cannot get a fair hearing in Israel.
You lied
You have not only lied consistently but you have lied stupidly
All these quotes from Ellen Seigal were posted yesterday, each one points the finger directly at Israel, yet you claim "It does not implicate Israelis in the massacre"
Are you totally insane - it would appear so
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Sep 16 - 10:16 AM

I've just produced a whole bundle of them and you dontinue to deny I have

You produced only one direct quote which was no lie. ( "decent nations not condemning...")
The rest was all your inaccurate interpretations of what you claim I said but did not.
If I am such a prolific liar, why can you find no quotes?

you claim to have answered them all - you have answered none

Sorry, I thought I had.
What still needs answering?

The McBride Commission found them "probably" responsible.
"Probably" is rather inconclusive, but I do not remember them using that word. Quote please.
I recall they could only say, "directly or indirectly" responsible and Israel accepts indirect responsibility.

no independent group has ever absolved them

Of course not. That is not what they do.

- human rights groups have declared them wholly responsible

How would they know what happened?
Members of the ICRC were in the hospital on day 2, and they moved in on the morning of day 3. They do not implicate Israel in the massacre.

So you rape a woman, cut her throat and disembowel her CARRYING A ***** torch
You catch an adult and shoot him or hack him to death carrying a torch.

If it actually happened at night yes. Fighters carry torches at night and such people as these would be in roaming gangs, not individuals.
Flares do not work indoors anyway, and all those other massacres were achieved without them.

"Remind me of some you have provided because I can think of none!"
Than you are either lying or illiterate

I am neither. Why can you not find anything Jim?

You have just been given Ellen Siegal's account of the massacre - is it not evidence because she wasn't there, or maybe because she was "a self-hating Jew"

I have it in front of me. It does not implicate Israelis in the massacre. It is entirely consistent with their version of events.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 16 - 08:41 AM

"Then it should be easy for to to produce an example."
Do you see what I mean - I've just produced a whole bundle of them and you dontinue to deny I have
"In the face of masses of evidence you have been given, eye witness accounts, press reports, inquiries, you say no evidence of Israel's culpability in the massacre has been produced
That is a blatant lie."
"You have been given a short systemic list of the events of Israel's part in the massacre - you claim to have answered them all - you have answered none
That is a blatant lie."
"You distort, you deny facts, you contradict witness statements, "
"No inquiry has found Israel directly responsible, "
The McBride Commission found them "probably" responsible.
Apart from The Kahan enquiry, no independent group has ever absolved them - human rights groups have declared them wholly responsible.
"Why not? Or you could use a torch, ."
So you rape a woman, cut her throat and disembowel her CARRYING A ***** torch
You catch an adult and shoot him or hack him to death carrying a torch.
You carry out the many executions that too place with a torch in one hand anfd a gun in the other - are you completely insane?
"or do it in daylight"
How stupid can you get?
The illumination was provided so the slaughter could continue day and night.
"Remind me of some you have provided because I can think of none!"
Than you are either lying or illiterate
You have just been given Ellen Siegal's account of the massacre - is it not evidence because she wasn't there, or maybe because she was "a self-hating Jew"
You are lying and you are lying about lying - all in consecutive postings.
Please keep this up Keith - it's a perfect example of a Pro-Israeli atrocity denier.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Sep 16 - 07:13 AM

You lie consistently Keith

Then it should be easy for to to produce an example.
Let's see the very worst you can come up with.
Or, are you the liar here?

eye witness accounts, press reports, inquiries,

No inquiry has found Israel directly responsible, so there is a lie from you straight away.

Eye witness accounts implicating Israelis did not appear for a suspiciously long time, and we know that lying eye witnesses can always be found against Israel.

Only one journalist entered the camp in the immediate aftermath, and he found nothing to implicate Israelis.

Sabra Shatila was totally without public lighting - the victims were dragged from their tiny dwellings, the wonen were raped and disemboweled in the lanes, the men were butchered - all in total darkness????

Why not? Or you could use a torch, or do it in daylight.
There were no flares for all those other massacres.

"Most were killed in their homes"
Do you have any evidence of this

Robert Fiske, "But there were women lying in houses with..."

No fighters were found and a tiny number of weapons were recovered.

Firing was coming out of the camp before Phalange went in.
Fiske filmed some fighters when he went in.

You have been inundated by documented evidence

Remind me of some you have provided because I can think of none!

It takes a certain level of stupidity to lie about something that is within reach without having to change threads

Yes it does Jim. It should be very easy for you to find some of this "documented evidence" if you are not lying again.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 16 - 06:33 AM

"You have also failed to substantiate any of your ludicrous claims, or offered any evidence to challenge the Israeli version of events."
That is a total and typical lie
You have been inundated by documented evidence
It takes a certain level of stupidity to lie about something that is within reach without having to change threads
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 16 - 05:07 AM

"You keep accusing me of lying but you have yet to identify a single one."
You lie consistently Keith
In the face of masses of evidence you have been given, eye witness accounts, press reports, inquiries, you say no evidence of Israel's culpability in the massacre has been produced
That is a blatant lie.
You have been given a short systemic list of the events of Israel's part in the massacre - you claim to have answered them all - you have answered none
That is a blatant lie.
You distort, you deny facts, you contradict witness statements, you misrepresent facts, you make stupid statements like your "decent nations not condemning..." all to defend mass murder - that is dishonesty to a viral extent.
Typical example.
"You do not need flares to murder people in a crowded camp,"
Sabra Shatila was totally without public lighting - the victims were dragged from their tiny dwellings, the wonen were raped and disemboweled in the lanes, the men were butchered - all in total darkness????
You have to be joking.
That is dishonesty
Where evidence if incontrovertible, you ignore it - that is dishonest.
"Most were killed in their homes"
Do you have any evidence of this
If you don't you are making it up.
"You do need flares to identify enemy positions and fighters in the dark"
No fighters were found and a tiny number of weapons were recovered.
That is a lie.
Your lies are in order to defend an unspeakable massacre of unarmed civilians
That is inhuman.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Sep 16 - 03:59 AM

Jim,
his lying inhumanity

You keep accusing me of lying but you have yet to identify a single one.
Put up or shut up.

You have also failed to substantiate any of your ludicrous claims, or offered any evidence to challenge the Israeli version of events.

You keep on about the flares.
You do not need flares to murder people in a crowded camp, so they are irrelevant to the issue.
Most were killed in their homes where the light of flares would not penetrate anyway. Or, it could have been done in daylight.
Either way, the flares are irrelevant.

You do need flares to identify enemy positions and fighters in the dark, so the flares support Israel's version of events, not yours.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 16 - 03:27 AM

"The Kahan Commission, declared former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger, was "a great tribute to Israeli democracy"
Selection from "Top 10 Kissinger Quotes"
1. Soviet Jews: "The emigration of Jews from the Soviet Union is not an objective of American foreign policy. And if they put Jews into gas chambers in the Soviet Union, it is not an American concern. Maybe a humanitarian concern."
7. Assassination: "It is an act of insanity and national humiliation to have a law prohibiting the President from ordering assassination." (Statement at a National Security Council meeting, 1975)
9. Illegality-Unconstitutionality: "The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer." (from March 10, 1975 meeting with Turkish foreign minister Melih Esenbel in Ankara, Turkey)
A good friend of the Israeli regime, it seems
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 16 - 03:14 AM

Jewish Virtual Library
"The Jewish Virtual Library (JVL) is an online encyclopedia published by the American-Israeli Cooperative Enterprise (AICE), one of whose "principal objectives is to enhance Israel's image by publicizing novel Israeli approaches to problems Wiki
A stated aim of American Israili Cooperative Enterprise
"stop BDS[edit]
Launched in 2010, the "Stop BDS project" is an online resource for students on campus and others who wish to fight the anti-Israel Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) movement in their communities.[14]"

AICE Executive Director is foreign policy analyst Mitchell G. Bard,
Before working for the AIPAC, he was a polling analyst for the George (H.W.) Bush for President Survey Research Group during the 1988 presidential election.
In 2012, Bard attended the Israeli Presidential Conference.[5] In 2013, he was placed on the Algemeiner's list of the Top 100 People Positively Influencing Jewish Life for his work.[6]

Now whose word should we take on the massacre - an extremist right wing orgnisation dedicated to defending the Israeli regime or a Jewish nurse who was an eyewitness to the massacre, who treated the survivors at the refugee camp while the killers were still on site, who testified at the Kahan enquiry to seeing the bulldozers on site and who has dedicated her life to telling the world what happened?
Let me think!!!!
The Israeli regime has declared war on Jewish people who criticise their actions, describing them as "self-hating Jews" and has stated that all criticism is Antisemitic
Their policy is now openly Antisemitic - by definition.   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Sep 16 - 08:49 PM

So bobad, a load of copy 'n' paste from a biased source and not a word from you. Mind you, I suppose we should be grateful for that.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 12 Sep 16 - 04:36 PM

The Lebanese Christian Phalangist militia was responsible for the massacres that occurred at the two Beirut-area refugee camps on September 16-17, 1982. Israeli troops allowed the Phalangists to enter Sabra and Shatila to root out terrorist cells believed located there. It had been estimated that there may have been up to 200 armed men in the camps working out of the countless bunkers built by the PLO over the years, and stocked with generous reserves of ammunition.

When Israeli soldiers ordered the Phalangists out, they found hundreds dead (estimates range from 460 according to the Lebanese police, to 700-800 calculated by Israeli intelligence). The dead, according to the Lebanese account, included 35 women and children. The rest were men: Palestinians, Lebanese, Pakistanis, Iranians, Syrians and Algerians. The killings came on top of an estimated 95,000 deaths that had occurred during the civil war in Lebanon from 1975-1982.

The killings were perpetrated to avenge the murders of Lebanese President Bashir Gemayel and 25 of his followers, killed in a bomb attack earlier that week.

Israel had allowed the Phalange to enter the camps as part of a plan to transfer authority to the Lebanese, and accepted responsibility for that decision. The Kahan Commission of Inquiry, formed by the Israeli government in response to public outrage and grief, found that Israel was indirectly responsible for not anticipating the possibility of Phalangist violence. Israel instituted the panel's recommendations, including the dismissal of Gen. Raful Eitan, the Army Chief of Staff. Defense Minister Ariel Sharon resigned.

The Kahan Commission, declared former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger, was "a great tribute to Israeli democracy....There are very few governments in the world that one can imagine making such a public investigation of such a difficult and shameful episode."

Ironically, while 300,000 Israelis demonstrated in Israel to protest the killings, little or no reaction occurred in the Arab world. Outside the Middle East, a major international outcry against Israel erupted over the massacres. The Phalangists, who perpetrated the crime, were spared the brunt of the condemnations for it.

By contrast, few voices were raised in May 1985, when Muslim militiamen attacked the Shatila and Burj-el Barajneh Palestinian refugee camps. According to UN officials, 635 were killed and 2,500 wounded. During a two-year battle between the Syrian-backed Shiite Amal militia and the PLO, more than 2,000, including many civilians, were reportedly killed. No outcry was directed at the PLO or the Syrians and their allies over the slaughter. International reaction was also muted in October 1990 when Syrian forces overran Christian-controlled areas of Lebanon. In the eight-hour clash, 700 Christians were killed-the worst single battle of Lebanon's Civil War.

Jewish Virtual Library

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 16 - 03:53 PM

"We knew you'd see the light eventually. "
Plwease don's top him Steve - his lying inhumanity is a perfect example of the sub-human pro Israeli Regimites who pollute this planet with their denials of massacres and human rights abuses.
"The Israeli Army surrounded Sabra and Shatila and stationed troops at the exits of the area to prevent camp residents from leaving and, at the Phalangists' request,[11] fired illuminating flares at night."

Ellen Seigal - Jewish Eye-witness to the massacre - a truly "self-hating Jew"

An open letter to the survivors of the Sabra and Shatila massacre
Ellen Siegel International Campaign for Justice for the Victims of Sabra and Shatila 29 June 2003
Ellen Siegel is a registered nurse. She volunteered her expertise and services at the Gaza Hospital in Sabra Camp in Beirut in 1982, and was there during the massacre. She testified as a witness befoe the Kahan Commission of Inquiry in Jerusalem in late 1982. Ms. Siegel is the Vice-Chair of the Medical Committee of American Near East Refugee Aid, a member of the Middle East Committee of the Peace Commission of the Episcopal Diocese of Washington, and active in the Jewish peace movement. She currently works as a community mental health nurse for a non-profit organization. She wrote the following letter to her friends and fellow massacre survivors and witnesses in Beirut in the wake of Belgium's decision to weaken its universal jurisdiction (anti-atrocity) legislation in response to pressure from the US Government.

July 29, 2003
My dear friends,
I met many of you last September, on the 20th anniversary of the massacre at Sabra and Shatila. I had not been back to Beirut, or to the camps, or to Gaza Hospital, where I had worked as a nurse, since the summer of 1982.
I wanted to return, to re-trace my steps. I wanted to remember, to be there beside you, to stand in solidarity with you. Most of all, I wanted to honor and pay tribute to you and your loved ones.
I would like to share my experience with you.
My first day, at sunrise, I headed for the camps. I was dropped off at what had been the entrance to the hospital, the very spot where we nurses and doctors were told to assemble twenty years ago by the Phalangist militia. I was met and accompanied by a Palestinian woman familiar with the camps.
What had once been a place where Palestinians and Lebanese living in the camps came to have their babies, went to have operations performed, where clinics once served the medical needs of the camp inhabitants and where a huge Red Cross banner once hung, had now become an almost uninhabitable place for displaced persons.
Now, the entrance is dark, foul smelling, rat infested, and piled with trash. You need matches or a flashlight to find the steps leading to the stairway and to light the stairwell. Palestinian, Lebanese, and possibly other Arab nationals squat in this building. The well they use for water had recently been destroyed. Wires hung from ceilings and walls, hooking up electrical power. Conditions are extremely unhealthy.
I walked up to the ninth floor and looked out. I could see the entire camp; the streets, the alleyways, and the top of what had been the Israeli Forward Command Post. The last time I looked out from this spot two decades earlier, it had been at night. What I saw then were flares being shot into the air, which were used to illuminate areas of the camp. After seeing this, twenty years later, with my naked eye, there was no doubt in my mind that the Israeli Defence Forces officials and soldiers, using sophisticated binoculars, could clearly see what was happening in those camps.
I then proceeded down Sabra Street. It is much denser, more crowded than it was in 1982. I was taken to shelters were people tried to hide during those terrible days, I saw the walls that had bullet holes where mass executions occurred. The complexity of the winding alleyways and warrens in these camps makes carrying out an operation such as the massacre very difficult. It could not have happened haphazardly. Planning and coordination had to occur.
The mass grave, at the end of the main street, was being spruced up for the anniversary. A brick wall now covers the spot where a firing squad lined up the health care workers. I walked past the Kuwaiti Embassy. There is now a statue and a roundabout before you come to what had been an abandoned UN building used for interrogating us. A brick wall now covers the spot. The building used by the Israelis as their Command Post remains. Standing at that spot, you overlook the camps.
I returned to visit with you several times. I met with survivors and families of martyrs. I attended the commemoration march and walked hand in hand with you. I attended the ceremony at the gravesite. I brought roses, together we placed them on the soil. I silently recited Kaddish, the Hebrew prayer for the dead. My last visit to the grave was a few days after the formal ceremony. It was then that I saw the silent grieving of loved ones. I realized, sadly, that yet another generation of Palestinian refugees was growing up in those deplorable camps.
The Palestinian women in these camps are extraordinary. Through no fault of your own you have spent most of your adult life moving from one squalid camp to another. You once thrived in villages in mainly northern Palestine. You farmed, harvested crops, and raised livestock. You were self-supporting. Throughout this incredible ordeal of becoming a refugee you have remained strong and proud. You have not lost your dignity. I have only the greatest respect for you.
You are such patient people. You wait to return to your homeland, you wait for justice. Every once in a while there is a ray of hope, like when Belgium passed an anti-atrocity law. You thought that Ariel Sharon, Amos Yaron and others responsible for that massacre would be tried as war criminals. Some of you traveled to Belgium, many of you gave detailed accounts of those dark days twenty years ago. You pulled out large framed and yellowing photos of your loved ones - you shared memories. For a while it seemed that there would be a hearing. At last, plaintiffs/survivors would be able to tell their story before an official court. But, it seems, this is not meant to be. Due to enormous pressure on the government of Belgium, mainly from Israel and the US, justice will be eluded once again.
This massacre could not happened without Israel's active participation under the command of Ariel Sharon, Amos Yaron, and others. Israel prevented terrified residents from leaving, they supplied the flares to the Phalange in order to light up neighborhoods so they could find their victims, they lent a bulldozer to help bury bodies, they were in communication with the murderers, and they could see what was going on in the camps. The Israeli Commission of Inquiry found that Sharon bore indirect responsibility - a decision questioned by many outside of Israel's establishment. The Phalange militia carried out the actual slaughter of men, women, and children. In seeking justice, we must not ignore this fact.
The Palestinians cannot get a fair hearing in Israel. The Israeli government just announced that they were not responsible for Rachel Corrie's death. It seems the driver of a bulldozer did not see her standing there waving her arms. Rachel Corrie, a US citizen, did not get a fair hearing.
Your friends from around the world will once again try to help you. We will write letters, make phone calls, send e-mails, and write articles, op ed pieces and the like. As you sit and wait, remember that your cause is heard. I do not know how many more generations you will have to wait. Do not despair. We will continue to seek justice on your behalf.
Our thoughts are with you.
Ellen Siegel, RN
Washington, DC
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Sep 16 - 02:33 PM

"... and allowed them access into the camp, standing by and doing nothing for three days and nights"

"Two nights. Yes. Israel acknowledges that. On the third day they ordered the Phalangists out, ending the massacre."

And with this exchange, Keith, you have demolished every one of your own sick arguments. The Israelis ordered the phalangists out. Which means that the Israelis were in charge all along. We knew you'd see the light eventually. You lose!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Sep 16 - 02:10 PM

You have had the exact details of the massacre and Israel's part of it -

No. You have given a version of events without evidence.
I have given an alternate version of events, which you seem unable to challenge.

Your latest attack on the Arab people is a return to your disgusting "cultural implant claim - we await your claimed experts who told you to say it.

I just quoted two reputable sources with links. You have quoted nothing.

he Israeli army facilitated assisted covered up the massacre of 3,500 unarmed refugees -

Do not just repeat your ludicrous claims. Offer some evidence!

they provided and transport for the killers and allowed them access into the camp, standing by and doing nothing for three days and nights

Two nights. Yes. Israel acknowledges that. On the third day they ordered the Phalangists out, ending the massacre.

The army provided illumination for three nights .

Two nights. Were flares used on the second night? I have not seen the evidence for that.

The army provided illumination for three nights so the massacre could continue, uninterrupted by darkness.

You do not need flares to murder people in their homes. They only illuminate outside anyway.

DOver three days, unarmed men, women and children were slaughtered, the women were raped and then had their throats cut by their killers - those who were pregnant were disemboweled and their unborn children were ripped from their wombs.

Yes. Israel has never denied it. Nor has anyone here, so what is your point?

provided bulldozers to bury the bodies, and eventually built a sports stadium over the mass graves so the exact number of deaths could never be calculated.


Do not just repeat your ludicrous claims. Offer some evidence!

Israel's own enquiry declared Arial Defence Minister Arial Sharon personally responsible for the massacre;

Indirectly responsible yes. No-one here has denied it, so what is your point?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 12 Sep 16 - 01:55 PM

And now you're back to attacking the Arabs as a race

The man is off his meds again and ranting.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 16 - 01:22 PM

You really are a shameless individual
- pretty muuch the most dishonest and inhuman individual encountered - totally lacking in self-respect
You have had the exact details of the massacre and Israel's part of it - you refuse to respond to them yet publicly claim you have.
Your latest attack on the Arab people is a return to your disgusting "cultural implant claim - we await your claimed experts who told you to say it.
You really aren't worth responding to - the only value of doing so in the past is to allow you to humiliate yourself publicly - but you can have too much of a good thing.
A reminder of what you refuse to respond to
he Israeli army facilitated assisted covered up the massacre of 3,500 unarmed refugees - they provided and transport for the killers and allowed them access into the camp, standing by and doing nothing for three days and nights - when refugees attempted to escape they were turned back by Israeli soldiers
The army provided illumination for three nights so the massacre could continue, uninterrupted by darkness.
DOver three days, unarmed men, women and children were slaughtered, the women were raped and then had their throats cut by their killers - those who were pregnant were disemboweled and their unborn children were ripped from their wombs.
At the end of the massacre, the army supplied transport to the airport to enable the killers to escape, provided bulldozers to bury the bodies, and eventually built a sports stadium over the mass graves so the exact number of deaths could never be calculated.
Israel's own enquiry declared Arial Defence Minister Arial Sharon personally responsible for the massacre; he initially refused to resign as and the then Prime Minister, Menachim Begin refused to fire him.
He eventually reigned, yet after a period of inaction, he was appointed Prime Minister and remained in that post until ill-health forced him to quit, hereby giving Israel's official blessing for his part in the massacre.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Sep 16 - 12:29 PM

You've had them Keith - from the time of the event to the present day

Completely untrue Jim.
Your latest. "the hiding of the hiding of the bodies were gone into in detail - from official records."

A ludicrous claim that you can not substantiate, and just one of many.

You don't even have the bottle to respond to them, though you lyingly claim you have.

I said I thought I had, and asked you which I had missed so I could re-answer them.
I ask you again. Which points would you like me to answer or re-answer, or is the whole thing a Jim lie?

you have said nothing other than Israel is innocent of everything which doesn't merit a response.

Completely untrue. I have just given their version of events, as you put their enemies' version. What is your objection to having both sides put Jim?

And now you're back to attacking the Arabs as a race

I have done no such thing. I quoted aspects of their culture which explains the cycle of revenge and reprisal that often occurs between Arab folk. I assume it is correct, but I know nothing about Arab culture. Do you challenge the sources? Are they wrong? You have seen my evidence. WHERE IS YOURS?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 16 - 11:16 AM

"No denials Jim. Just requesting substantiation for your ludicrous claims."
You've had them Keith - from the time of the event to the present day
You don't even have the bottle to respond to them, though you lyingly claim you have.
"What have I said that requires evidence Jim?"
Nothing Keith - you have said nothing other than Israel is innocent of everything which doesn't merit a response.
You have had masses on evidence - you have provided none.
And now you're back to attacking the Arabs as a race - after having denied being a racist and after being provided masses of similar quotes from the Christain Bible.
Must look ot for the burning crosses on the lawn tonight.
You people really are something!!
Seig Heil - eh what!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Sep 16 - 11:01 AM

Jim,
More denial - no evidence eh Keith

No denials Jim. Just requesting substantiation for your ludicrous claims.
("the hiding of the hiding of the bodies were gone into in detail - from official records." "Ruth Smeeth attended the conference where Netunyahu racially attacked the Palestinian people." etc., etc.)
You have provided nothing.

What have I said that requires evidence Jim?
I will withdraw it at once if I can not produce the evidence.
Will you make the same offer?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Sep 16 - 10:35 AM

" but one massacre does often result in another and so on."

ARAB CONCEPT OF REVENGE
ƒ The Arab concept of revenge is a strong
cultural force.
ƒ The Old Testament's and Qur'an's passages
that advocate "an eye for an eye" dominate
Arab culture.
ƒ The conflict continues even after the
belligerents have killed each other off, because
previously uninvolved family and/or tribal
members expand the fight seeking revenge.
https://fas.org/irp/agency/army/arabculture.pdf
(page 29)

He (tribal leader) must also uphold the main facets
of tribal values, surrounding honour ('ird or sharaf), hospitality (karama),
warriorhood (shahama) and revenge (tha'ar). In addition, a shaykh has to
project an image of strength, primarily by maintaining the tribe's status in
respect to neighbouring and potentially hostile tribes around it.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/16871/arab_world_introduction_cultural_appreciation_booklet.pdf
(p22)

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 16 - 09:49 AM

Not surprising that those who blame Labour's anti-Semitism on Jews would also blame Jews for massacres carried out by others.
Nobody blames Jews for either, apart from yourself
The Israeli regime are responsible for both - not the Jewish people
Of course, those Jews who criticise the massacres are "Self Hating".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 16 - 09:34 AM

" but one massacre does often result in another and so on."
And none are justified - this is waffling bullshit which involved the massacre of 3,500 unarmed civilians facilitated by Israel
Piss or get off the pot
Jim Carrroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Sep 16 - 08:50 AM

" a massacre is a massacre, whether it occurred in Sabra Shatila, Mai Lai, Auschwitz, Bai Yar.. or wherever, and one does not negate another - it is despicable to suggest it does"|

Very true one does not negate another, but one massacre does often result in another and so on. By the way who has suggested that one massacre negates another - I certainly haven't.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Sep 16 - 08:20 AM

Raggytash - 12 Sep 16 - 07:51 AM

Guide to absolutely nothing of the sort Kipper, merely stating what happened and why those involved felt as they did and acted as they did.

There again you like Shaw, Carroll and Greg - cannot dispute the detail of the information supplied. You are all in total denial of the part "your" Palestinians have played in the train wreck they have made of their lives and the destruction that they through choice have wrought in the region.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 12 Sep 16 - 08:07 AM

Not surprising that those who blame Labour's anti-Semitism on Jews would also blame Jews for massacres carried out by others.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Sep 16 - 07:51 AM

And there you have it, the unexpurgated Woodcock Guide to World Class Tact and Diplomacy.

Drop bigger bombs, kill more of them.

Pathetic, truly sad and pathetic.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 16 - 07:38 AM

A reminder of Israel's record of WAR CRIMES AND ATROCITIES
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 16 - 06:25 AM

"Jim seems to think that the Sabra-Shatila massacre was the only one that occurred"
Nope - a massacre is a massacre, whether it occurred in Sabra Shatila, Mai Lai, Auschwitz, Bai Yar.. or wherever, and one does not negate another - it is despicable to suggest it does
You are now coming over as somewhat desperate with your continued distortions of the opinions of others -
The Israel's facilitated and assisted this massacre and appointed the man they had judged to be responsible, Prime Minister.
Says all that needs to be said really
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Sep 16 - 05:55 AM

Thanks again Keith you've saved me the trouble of informing Shaw and Jim about the Lebanese Civil War that ran from 1975 to 1990. The Civil War that was started on Nasser's orders by the Palestinian "refugees" who had just been kicked out of Jordan after their failed attempt at taking over that country. "Palestinian" refugees sent into Lebanon by Egypt, Syria and Iraq.

Jom seems to think that the Sabra-Shatila massacre was the only one that occurred - perhaps he should do a bit of reading and educate himself as to what these "Palestinians" were doing in Lebanon, you too Shaw, don't know if you ever visited that pre-civil war Lebanon, Beirut the Paris of the middle-east - I did quite a few times between 1972 and 1974 it was absolutely fantastic. Your "Palestinians" completely destroyed it and instigated a fifteen year war that cost the lives of over 250,000 people. That might be why certain sections of the Lebanese population might have been a bit "hacked off" with those who brought about all the mayhem and destruction. Just as the British got more than a little peeved at the Germans during the Second World War over things like the bombing of Coventry - What was it Churchill promised the British people and the citizens of our bombed cities - "We will pay them back 100 fold" - No idle threat - we did.

Usual crap from Jom though - tell us all how over the course of fifteen years the Israelis managed to hide and store all those dead bodies and bury them in secret under a sports stadium they built under the watchful gaze of all those people? You will not offer any explanation because such a feat would be impossible and any sentient human being knows that.

Tell us again Jom about all those "transient" refugee camps - you know the ones, those that have existed since 1948 and are still where they were created by Arabs for Arabs to this very day.

Explain to us all how Arafat having caused all the trouble in Jordan was the first to scurry over the border into Lebanon when Hussain of Jordan's Army got too much for Arafat and his "fighters" who all scurried with him leaving his "people", his "Palestinians" to pick up the tab. He and his "fighters" were also the first to run from the Beirut as well, taking with him his millions of course. Arafat, a coward, a crook and a liar. With "Leaders" like that, no wonder the "Palestinians" find themselves in the mess they are in - but make no mistake about it they have only themselves to blame.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 16 - 05:52 AM

More denial - no evidence eh Keith
A truely sickening way to start the week.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Sep 16 - 05:00 AM

Jim,
the hiding of the hiding of the bodies were gone into in detail - from official records.

What official records? Just more made up shit Jim.

"Jenin"
We even appear to have the wrong massacre here

Jenin is relevant because it shows that Israel's enemies are prepared to lie to implicate Israel in crimes, and produce "eye witnesses" to the lie.

Only Israel found itself not guilty of it's involvement in the massacre

So who found them directly responsible Jim? Anyone? No-one?

ISRAEL'S PART IN THE MASSACRE remains a fact

Yes. They acknowledge their part in it.

you both lie extensively

But, let me guess, you will not produce one single example.
Feel free to prove me wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 16 - 03:57 AM

More arrogance, more denials - no evidence and no response to the documented evidence that has been produced - in great detail.
Nothing new here
"Jenin"
We even appear to have the wrong massacre here - keep up cabin boy - or maybe the exaggerations of Jenin negate their having been one at Sabra-Shatila
Seems the Village Idiot's Day has come upon us once again.
The massacre was reported on by independent groups and was declared a crime against humanity
The fact that Billy the Bully has to ask if I know what the name of the Stadium is indicative that he hasn't bothered his arse to read back arguments.
I introduced that facts of the massacre in the first place - all the facts, including names, eye witness and official reports, world-wide reaction.... the lot - the hiding of the hiding of the bodies were gone into in detail - from official records.
Only Israel found itself not guilty of it's involvement in the massacre - and the enquiry reluctantly took place because 400,000 decent Israeli citizens demanded one.
The Israelis reacted to their own findings by appointing the man they deemed responsible by appointing him Prime Minister - a pretty fair summing up of the importance the Israeli regime attaches to human life   
ISRAEL'S PART IN THE MASSACRE remains a fact and remains unpunished.
Do you stupid pair think bullying arrogance and open lying changes those facts in any way - it certainly impresses nobody here?
You produce nothing by way of evidence, you both lie extensively in all your arguments and are persistently found to heve done so (tell us about the "unidentified" ammo again, Cap'n Pugwash)
You really are a distastefully pathetic pair
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Sep 16 - 02:18 AM

It is wicked of you to even suggest that anyone here regarded the massacre as "justified."
You should take that back now Steve.

These events happened in the context of the Lebanes civil war that had been grinding on for years.

"From 1975 to 1990, groups in competing alliances with neighboring countries fought against each other in the Lebanese Civil War. Infighting and massacres between these groups claimed several thousand victims. Examples: the Syrian-backed Karantina massacre (January 1976) by the Kataeb and its allies against Kurds, Syrians and Palestinians in the predominantly Muslim slum district of Beirut; Damour (January 1976) by the PLO against Christian Maronites, including the family and fiancée of the Lebanese Forces intelligence chief Elie Hobeika; and Tel al-Zaatar (August 1976) by Phalangists and their allies against Palestinian refugees living in a camp administered by UNRWA. The total death toll in Lebanon for the whole civil war period was around 150,000 victims"

"During the early years of the war, massacres on a large scale were perpetrated by the fighting forces against the civilian population. The Christian city of Damour was captured and destroyed by Palestinian terrorists in January 1976. The Christian residents fled the city, and the conquering forces carried out acts of slaughter that cost the lives of many Christians. In August 1976, the Christian forces captured the Tel Zaatar refugee camp in Beirut, where Palestinian terrorists had dug in, and thousands of Palestinian refugees were massacred. Each massacre brought in its wake acts of revenge of a similar nature. The number of victims of the civil war has been estimated at close to 100,000 killed, including a large number of civilians, among them women and children."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 16 - 08:28 PM

Well, Teribus, perhaps you could tell us all why the phalangists feeling so "embittered" justified the merciless slaughters they carried out in the two refugee camps. Gosh, only last week I was terribly embittered when a local landlord served me a pint of flat Doom Bar that was at least three degrees too warm, then short-changed me by 10p. I think I'll take a machete to him tomorrow...

In other words, stop trying to defend the indefensible.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Sep 16 - 01:56 AM

Thank you for responding as you did Greg - another typical example of one of your meaningless non-posts - saying nothing, addressing nothing, contributing nothing.

"Normally anything I state can be backed up by documented verified fact. Which is why in response we get idiotic meaningless tripe from you, because you cannot counter the detail."


Greg F. - 10 Sep 16 - 05:29 PM

Quod Erat Demonstrandum

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Sep 16 - 05:29 PM

Normally anything I state can be backed up by documented verified fact

Now that really IS amusing, T-Bird. What about abnormally?

But I've recently joined TRA (Turd-Wrestlers Anonymous) so will have to bow out.

Cheers.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Sep 16 - 05:11 PM

About as good as you can muster on this Forum Greg.

Normally anything I state can be backed up by documented verified fact. Which is why in response we get idiotic meaningless tripe from you, because you cannot counter the detail. From Jom it is spittle-flecked emotive froth, because he cannot counter or disprove the detail.

The Palestinians spun a yarn relating to Beirut in 1982 - none of you so far have questioned why the Christian Phalange were so embittered against the Palestinians and the PLO - you should look up what role they played in the destabilisation of the Lebanon and Beruit, you won't because of course it is all Israel's fault - you couldn't be further from the truth.The Palestinians also tried to spin the same yarn about Jenin but this time they got caught out in their lies and propaganda.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Sep 16 - 02:06 PM

Jim,
Ruth Smeeth attended the conference where Netunyahu racially attacked the Palestinian people

Firstly, Netunyahu did no such thing.
Secondly, she attended in 2007, and the speech you refer to was made at the 2003 conference.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Sep 16 - 01:15 PM

Just because they said it was so doesn't necessarily mean that that was how it was

Right back atcha, T-Bird.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Sep 16 - 01:02 PM

As you think that this is supposedly all so easy for you Jom, did you ever find out the name of that Sports Stadium?

Also could you explain how it would be possible for someone to dig a mass grave with a Bulldozer in the middle of a city, under full observation of those supposed witnesses, the Lebanese Army, the Multi-National Force (US, Italian, French and British armed forces), various NGOs and aid agencies and manage to keep it "secret".

Now similar tales were broadcast about another "massacre" as I recall - place called Jenin. How many innocent Palestinian "civilians" were the Israelis supposed to have "massacred" there Jom?

"The UN report to the Secretary General noted "Palestinians had claimed that between 400 and 500 people had been killed, fighters and civilians together. They had also claimed a number of summary executions and the transfer of corpses to an unknown place outside the city of Jenin."

Then the truth came out:

Human Rights Watch completed its report on Jenin in early May, stating "there was no massacre," but accusing the IDF of war crimes,[80] and Amnesty International's report concluded "No matter whose figures one accepts, "there was no massacre."[1] Amnesty's report specifically observed that "after the IDF temporarily withdrew from Jenin refugee camp on April 17, UNRWA set up teams to use the census lists to account for all the Palestinians (some 14,000) believed to be resident of the camp on April 3, 2002. Within five weeks all but one of the residents was accounted for."[81] A BBC report later noted, "Palestinian authorities made unsubstantiated claims of a wide-scale massacre,"[15] and a reporter for The Observer opined that what happened in Jenin was not a massacre.[82]

The war crimes allegation didn't stand up either, all that happened in an area under Israel's control.

Kinda pours doubts and completely destroys any credibility on claims by the PLO and their allies - Just because they said it was so doesn't necessarily mean that that was how it was - they are not beyond lying if they think it will be to their advantage.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Sep 16 - 12:59 PM

Jim dear, you are such a transparent old fraud.
If you had a point you thought would defeat me, you would shout it from the roof tops and post it in inch high red capitals!

The fact is that you have nothing.
We have had this debate many times before, you have come up with nothing new this time, and you know I can knock down anything you put up.

But I will give you another chance to prove that you are not just a sad, total loser.

Which point would you like to have re-answered first?
In your own time Jim dear.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Sep 16 - 09:47 AM

Is that what they do to dissidents in Israel?

There ARE no dissidents in Israel - all Israeli citizens support the right-wing government 100 per cent. Just ask Professor Bubo.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Sep 16 - 08:37 AM

"Which would you like to have re-answered first?"
Anold old and extremely dishonest ploy Keith
You have the list - you have responded to none.
If they are guilty of any one of those on the list, they are implicated in a major human rights crime - your refusal to respond is a clear indication that you know they are guilty of all of them - you really are a dishonest little man, aren't you - and not very bright, with it?
Sorry - this is far too easy - you're doing my work fror me
Have a good day now
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Sep 16 - 08:27 AM

So far, you have given us a blanket denial of every crime Israel has ever committed

No. I just put Israel's version of events, while you put the version promulgated by her enemies.
What is wrong with that?

I thought I had answered all your points Jim.
Which would you like to have re-answered first?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Sep 16 - 06:45 AM

"Jim, produce something, anything, that contradicts Israel's version of events."
Try answering the points I have put up Keith - they did all of those things unless you can prove otherwise.
So far, you have given us a blanket denial of every crime Israel has ever committed (pretty much the same with anything the British establishment has been accused of).
That is what has made you the laughing stock of this thread
"And, how many Labour members are still suspended Jim?Mus be guilty then =- lets' get a rope and find a tree.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Sep 16 - 06:37 AM

Jim, produce something, anything, that contradicts Israel's version of events.
You have taken us back over thirty years, and yet you still fail to make any case. You really have nothing on Israel at all except propaganda.

And, how many Labour members are still suspended Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Sep 16 - 05:53 AM

"Careful Keith, from the look of his posts they'll be carting him off in a straight jacket pretty soon."
Is that what they do to dissidents in Israel?
Wouldn't surprise me in the least.
So there we have it - a wheedlingly hand-wringing "Israel didn't do it" Dalek and a vitriol-spouting Antimesmite who blames the Jewish people for the crimes committed by Israel.
The Bullying Blusterer appears to have retired back under his bridge to lick his wounds
Nothing more on the series of events - which confirms that they are not disputed - not even here.
Case proven, I think.
Meanwhile - back at the ranch.
It seems Labour is pretty well off the hook - 1 possible case being taken further out of - how many members?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Sep 16 - 04:50 AM

Both of you have tried to smear her but have declined to substantiate a single accusation.
Nasty.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Sep 16 - 04:35 AM

Jim,
Robert Fisk's account contradicts it - Ellen Seigal, the eyewitness, has devoted her life to telling it as it was.

There is nothing in their original accounts that contradict Israel's version, and despite you protestations you have produced nothing either.

WHICH ONE OF YOUR "DECENT" COUNTRIES HAS EVER SUPPORTED ISRAEL'S ROLE IN THE MASSACRE - IGNORE THIS AND YOU CONFIRM THAT NO-ONE DOES

Not one held or holds Israel to be directly responsible. That is why you can find no single denunciation or imposition of sanctions from any of them.

Steve,
"He himself says he was expelled over the media reports of his antisemitim."
That's precisely what you said, Keith

Yes and it is precisely accurate. He says it was over the media reports, which were about his antisemitism, which he denies but the Party still expelled him.
I note that you have joined in the hate campaign against Ruth Smeeth.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 09 Sep 16 - 08:37 PM

Amazing how little self awareness some people have.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 16 - 08:13 PM

I don't look good in anything. I'm the sort of bloke who can make a brand-new two hundred quid pair of Levis look like I just picked them up at the Boy Scouts' jumble sale.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Sep 16 - 07:05 PM

Same old nonsensical Boo Spew.

Tedious

Boring.

Bullshit.

vide turd wrestling, above.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 09 Sep 16 - 05:48 PM

You'd look good in one too, Shaw.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 09 Sep 16 - 05:37 PM

Straitjacket, idiot. Do try to get at least something right.

Blow me!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 16 - 05:26 PM

"He himself says he was expelled over the media reports of his antisemitim."

That's precisely what you said, Keith. That he said he was antisemitic and that he was expelled over media reports of it. But he didn't, did he. He has consistently and correctly denied the accusations of antisemitism. He is a lifelong campaigner against all forms of racism and discrimination and has worked alongside Jews to fight antisemitism. You should be attacking the charlatan who unjustly accused him even though he didn't know she was a Jew, and who produced fake tears and a staged walkout. Like most of the anticorbynites she was out for trouble. And why not. After all, she is a professed supporter of the same Israeli regime which has spent months briefing against Corbyn and stoking up the dishonest campaign over Labour "antisemitism." She is a prime mover in the UK pro-Israel lobby and she opposes the boycott of Israeli goods. But no, she fits your agenda nicely and you'll fit your tissue of lies around people like her.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 16 - 05:03 PM

Straitjacket, idiot. Do try to get at least something right.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 09 Sep 16 - 04:38 PM

Careful Keith, from the look of his posts they'll be carting him off in a straight jacket pretty soon.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Sep 16 - 02:58 PM

"Jim, there is no evidence that contradicts Israel's version,"
Yes there is Keith and you have been given it
You even called the eye-wirtnesses "liars" for contradicting Israel's story 0- thereby contradicting your own statement
If there was no dispute of Israel's version - what were they "lying" about.
I have given you a list of what Israel didand asked you to provide proof that it was not true - you refuse to do so, therefore confirming it all to be true
Robert Fisk's account contradicts it - Ellen Seigal, the eyewitness, has devoted her life to telling it as it was.
The experience of an Israeli Soldier who was traumatised after witnessing the entire three days was ade into a prizewinning animated film 'Waltz with Bashir' - the MacBride commission evidence contradicts it...... history condemns it as a massacre facilitated by the Israelis
You contradict it without evidence - you deny a massacre, as I said you would
One more time
The let the killers in, they provided arms, they turned escaping refugees back into the clutches of the killers, they provided lighting for three nights, they provided bulldozers to bury the bodies, they drove the killers to the airport
That is total implication in a mass murder.
If any of the things on this list are not true - please provide liinked evidence that they are not.
If these things do not show that Israel co-operated in the mass murder of 3,500 unarnmed refugees, prove it does not
Or
WHICH ONE OF YOUR "DECENT" COUNTRIES HAS EVER SUPPORTED ISRAEL'S ROLE IN THE MASSACRE - IGNORE THIS AND YOU CONFIRM THAT NO-ONE DOES
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Sep 16 - 01:38 PM

Steve,
. You said that Wadworth admitted to antisemitism.

I did not. I will be kind and say you are mistaken not lying.

. You said that the massacres were carried out by Arab militia, clearly implying that the Palestinians in the camps were massacred by their own people.

The massacres were carried out by Arab militias, and saying that does not imply "that the Palestinians in the camps were massacred by their own people" except that they are all Arabs.

They were massacred by Lebanese Christians who had tried for years to get Palestinians, who they hated, out of Lebanon.

The Palestinians also wanted the Christians out, and had perpetrated massacres in Christian villages.

Jim, there is no evidence that contradicts Israel's version, and no liberal democracy held them responsible. They would not continue friendly relations with a state guilty of such an atrocity, so do not pretend that responsibility is accepted by anyone but Israel's enemies .
Why not quote a decent government blaming Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Sep 16 - 01:09 PM

And by the way
"Why do you assert shit like that when you know it is questioned and denied?"
Don't you know the first sign of a fascist is somebody who objects to people passing an opinnion because others disagree with is an indisputable sign of fascism - it appears that free speech doesn't register on your wavelength!!
But we know that already, don't we (please don't send me to The Tower!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Sep 16 - 12:59 PM

"No I did not."
Yes you did
"The evidence also supports Israel's version, which I have given."
Then produce it.
"Why do you assert shit like that when you know it is questioned and denied?"
Of courser it is denied - by Israel.
Even America warned Israel that they could no longer rely on their support after the last bloodbath
Produce your evidence
You have just been given a statement by an Israeli statesman linking the present regime with Fascism
A leading military man made the same comparison not so long ago.
A few years ago, ex heads of Mossad said the same.
An ex Israeli Prime Minister (Barak) has described what is happening in Israel as "fascist"
Holocause survivors and their families made the same accusation recently.
Accusations and warnings of Zionist Fascism go back to the birth of the State
Any State that places itself above criticism by accusing its critics of being "self-hating Jews" or "Antisemites" for criticising its policies, as Israel is doing, is well on the road to fascism - and that is without mentioning the massacre of non-combatant civilians.
It is most certainly not a "liberal democracy" if you don't happen to be Jewish - far from it.
Comparisons witf neighbouring states do not in any way negate Israel's behaviour
Don't you dare suggest that this accusation comes from me - you have totally ignored all the statements I have put up describing the Israeli regime of being "fascist".
I ask again - who supports Israel's role in the Sabra Shatila massacre - apart for Israel and atrocity supporters like you?
How do you explain a State that declares itself above criticism apart from a fascist one?
Any political regime which describes its critics as "SELF HATING JEWS" is a fascist one at war with its own people
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 16 - 12:13 PM

Both lies are in your post. You said that Wadworth admitted to antisemitism. He did the precise opposite. You said that the massacres were carried out by Arab militia, clearly implying that the Palestinians in the camps were massacred by their own people. Well they were not. They were massacred by Lebanese Christians who had tried for years to get Palestinians, who they hated, out of Lebanon. A lie by omission, a deliberate misrepresentation in order to blacken the reputation of Arabs, is as bad a lie as any antisemitism. You have forfeited the right to criticise anyone else for bigotry, you hateful little man.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Sep 16 - 11:45 AM

Steve,
The murders at the camps were carried out by Lebanese Christians

That would be the '82 massacre.
The "Lebanese Christians" were a militia known as Phalanges and were Arabs, as were the other militias guilty of massacres in those camps.
Where is the lie?

"He himself says he was expelled over the media reports of his antisemitim" [sic], "he himself" DENIED Smeeth's egregiously false and trumped-up charge of antisemitism.

Yes he did, but the Party decided otherwise and expelled him.
Where is the lie Steve?

Jim,
When you first came up with this ludicrous excuse, you included Turkey among "decent, democratic countries"

No I did not.

Unless you can provide evidence that none of those things I have listed happened, it is as I said -

The evidence also supports Israel's version, which I have given.
I have not invented evidence, as I have exposed you doing!

Isreal's defence for right-wing extreme behaviour - totally unquestionable

Why do you assert shit like that when you know it is questioned and denied?

When the Israeli Justice Minister claimed that any criticism of Israeli policy was "Antisemitic", Israel joined prewar Germany in it's Deutschland Uber Alles club - it is now Israel Uber Alles
That is a blatantly antisemitic statement Jim. See Chakrabarti's report.

Israel is now becoming rexcognisably a fascist State
No. It is the only liberal democracy in the region.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Sep 16 - 10:45 AM

"I am sure everyone else understands it to mean liberal Western democracies"
When you first came up with this ludicrous excuse, you included Turkey among "decent, democratic countries" until it was pointed out to you that Turkey was a fact state - indicating that what you mean by a D. D. State is anybody who supports Israel.
It is a nonsense argument - America, who is Israel's main supporter is noted for past war crimes.
Unless you can provide evidence that none of those things I have listed happened, it is as I said - Israel has been part of a massive crime against humanity and, despite you protests, you are a supporter of war crimes and atrocities - end of story.
This excuse is probably one of the most stupidly dishonest arguments you have ever put up - beats historians you have never read by miles
"Eye witnesses" frequently lie against Israel."
Who has lied - the victims - the Israeli soldiers who were traumatised at what they say - the Jewish nurse......
Isreal's defence for right-wing extreme behaviour - totally unquestionable - covered by the world media - described by Human rights organisations - Medical Organisations - Members of the United Nations - Journalists - Eye witnesses..... as possible war crimes and atrocities, has been defended by Israel and nodding dogs like you as "Antisemitic lies"
This defence has gone so far as to demand the closure of the International Criminal Court.
When the Israeli Justice Minister claimed that any criticism of Israeli policy was "Antisemitic", Israel joined prewar Germany in it's Deutschland Uber Alles club - it is now Israel Uber Alles
Israel is now becoming rexcognisably a fascist State
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Sep 16 - 10:19 AM

"Is there nothing you won't lie about?"

The simple answer is no.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 16 - 10:05 AM

The murders at the camps were carried out by Lebanese Christians under the gaze of the IDF. "Arab militias" is a completely disingenuous and wilful misrepresentation and you know it. You are trying to divert the blame for the Palestinian deaths at the camps on to their own side and away from the then Israeli regime. That is revisionism no less immoral than Holocaust denial.s

As for this:

"He himself says he was expelled over the media reports of his antisemitim" [sic], "he himself" DENIED Smeeth's egregiously false and trumped-up charge of antisemitism. Is there nothing you won't lie about?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Sep 16 - 09:15 AM

Steve, its past time you abjured turd-wrestling. Jim ditto.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Sep 16 - 09:09 AM

Steve,
You must be the only person in the world who thinks that the massacres were carried out by an "Arab militia." Absolute racist nonsense.

Arab militias Steve. An historical fact. Which of them do you doubt and I will give you chapter and verse.

I want you to tell me about a direct Labour source that says he was EXPELLED FOR ANTISEMITISM,

He himself says he was expelled over the media reports of his antisemitim.
I am sure you care as little for what I believe as I do you, but the Labour Party does not believe his protests and denials.
He is still suspended.

burble on about "decent democratic countries" as though there's some objective measure of what that's supposed to mean.

I am sure everyone else understands it to mean liberal Western democracies such as EU states, Canada, Australia, Scandinavian states, etc.
Now you understand my shorthand too.

Jim,
Tell me one country that has ever disputed Isreal's part in the Sabra Shatila massacre

See above Jim. No decent state would continue friendly relations with a state they thought guilty of such an atrocity.

She reported seeing the bulldozers on the site - the help with digging the graves is a known fact

No. She reported a single bulldozer by the camp entrance moving earth.
It is a made up lie to say "the help with digging the graves is a known fact." It is no such thing.

Human rights enquiries

Huh??

eye witness accounts have confirmed Israel's culpability

"Eye witnesses" frequently lie against Israel.
Remember the nurses on the Marmara who "saw" Israelis throwing bodies into the sea?
Remember the "witnesses" who "saw" bodies being trucked out of Jenin?
All lies

Not one reputable, independent group has absolved Israel from this massacre.
No decent democratic country holds them responsible.

You asked for proof that you support mass murder - ther - you have it AGAIN

There is no such proof. You certainly have not produced anything that challenges Israel's version of events.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Sep 16 - 07:10 AM

"It is not accepted by any decent democratic country, and certainly not documented."
Not ths again
Tell me one country that has ever disputed Isreal's part in the Sabra Shatila massacre
This is the most stupid and dishonest defence of State terrorism I have ever come across - POLITICIANS SILENCE - YOU HAVE TO BE JOKING!!
"She reported nothing about graves."
She reported seeing the bulldozers on the site - the help with digging the graves is a known fact
If the Israelis didn't bury them - who did - the killers were off the site within hours of the massacre, the refugees didn't bury them otherwise the whereabouts would have been discovered
The missing corpses is stated as a reason for there being no final figure on the massacre BECAUSE THE ISRAELIS BURIED THEM TO HIDE THEIR CRIME.
"No document or investigation has found Israel directly responsible."
The McBride Commission said they were probably guilty - Their own eport absolved themselves from major blme
Human rights enquiries and eye witness accounts have confirmed Israel's culpability
Not one reputable, independent group has absolved Israel from this massacre.
The let the killers in, they provided arms, they turned escaping refugees nback into the clutvces of the killers, they provided lighting for three nights, they provided bulldozers to bury the bodies, they drove the killers to the airport
That is total implication in a mass murder.
If any of the things on this list are not true - please provide liinked evidence that they are not.
If these things do not show that Israel co-operated in the mass murder of 3,500 unarnmed refugees, prove it does not
Your disgusting denial of this in no more than that - denial, making you an atrocity denier.
You asked for proof that you support mass murder - ther - you have it AGAIN
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 16 - 06:10 AM

And you demand objectivity from everybody else whilst continuing to burble on about "decent democratic countries" as though there's some objective measure of what that's supposed to mean. You're a joke.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 16 - 06:05 AM

You must be the only person in the world who thinks that the massacres were carried out by an "Arab militia." Absolute racist nonsense.

So Ruth Smeeth, with her fake tears and staged walkout (yes there were witnesses to that), Ruth Smeeth who is one of the leading lights in the pro-Israeli regime lobby in this country, Ruth Smeeth who campaigns to get boycotts of Israeli goods lifted, Ruth Smeeth who dearly wants Jeremy Corbyn out, called Wadworth antisemitic for remarks that made no reference whatsoever to Jews, and you believe her. Wadworth, a lifelong campaigner against all forms of racism and discrimination, who didn't know she was a Jew, on the other hand, simply must be antisemitic in order to fit your agenda, even though he's worked alongside Jews to fight antisemitism. I want you to tell me about a direct Labour source that says he was EXPELLED FOR ANTISEMITISM, your words Keith, not "because of media reports." As we all know, your idea of a "media report" is generally a shabby right-wing reinterpretation of the facts. You won't find a source because there isn't one. In other words, you're a liar.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Sep 16 - 04:48 AM

..promulgated by...

You two are being very nasty and personal. Try to be objective.
I do not deny the'82 massacre, but like all the massacres in those camps it was perpetrated by an Arab militia.

I have not told any lie. If you accuse please substantiate.
Jim has lied.

"American Jewish nurse, reported Israeli bulldozers clearing the site in order to dig mass graves."
She reported nothing about graves.

" the massacre of 3,500 unarmed civilians, fully investigated and documented."
No document or investigation has found Israel directly responsible.

They acknowledge indirect responsibility as the controlling force in Lebanon at the time, and that the danger of a revenge massacre should have been foreseen.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Sep 16 - 04:05 AM

Jim,
All documented and fully accepted except by the atrocity deniers

It is not accepted by any decent democratic country, and certainly not documented.

Steve,
Smeeth accused Wadsworth of antisemitism, and that is what all the media reports were about, and the party expelled him for it.

Keith, that your lying denial of what happened at Sabra and Shatila
I am just giving Israel's version of events, which all decent governments have accepted.
There are always two sides to a story. You give the version promulgated of Israel's enemies.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Sep 16 - 03:40 AM

Refugee camps as they are, are a stain on the Landscape
Refugees should not be housed in mud-swilling, tent-town slums for months or even years on end, and certainly not be subject to massacres as the residents of Sabra-Shatila were.
Please don't attempt to feign concern for people who, you have declared, have no right to the homeland they have been driven out of and whose decimation you have attempted to defend at the hands of the Israelis.
You and your fick friend would have to fill in application forms in order to be even considered human beings.
Keith had denigrated and undermined the rights of refugees (including those who have been forced off Traveller sites in Britain and have become Britain's own home-grown permanent refugees) and you are no different.
Here, both of you have attempted to open a long-settled debate in order to defend the perpetrators of the mass-murder of people you pretend to have concern for (don't think I've ever come across anything quite so stupid as 'it wasn't a massacre because we don't know how many were killed'.
You want to see a "stain on the landscape" - look at Calais, populated by refugees fleeing being slaughtered by despotic friends of Britain, (often by arms and equipment sold by us) in wars we have helped instigate.
If the Arab nations have done what you claim - it is exactly what we are doing now by refusing refuge to those fleeing oil wars and slavery-level poverty - also assisted by western greed.
If wartime Britons of the past had treated the fleeing Jews the way we are treating today's refugees. there would have been a few more digits added to the six million who died then.
These camps are not only "stains on the landscape" - they are living and ongoing proof of the inhumanity of the wealthy nations.
Your smug finger-pointing at third-world nations for doing what we are doing just about sums you up.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Sep 16 - 02:22 AM

To Shaw and Greg F.

In answer to your posts:

Keith A of Hertford - 08 Sep 16 - 02:59 PM

"Refugee camps a permanent stain on the landscape? Well what does that remark tell us about your sheer lack of humanity?"

It tells us much about the lack of humanity of their hosts.

Thank you Keith saved me the trouble.

The so called "Leaders" of the Arabs of Palestine, and the governments of so called "friendly" or "allied" neighbouring states have deliberately kept and held the "Palestinian" refugees in camps, in poverty and in despair to be used as they see fit as political pawns and a source of revenue from which they make millions - take a look at the personal fortunes amassed by Yasser Arafat and by Mahmoud Abbas.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Sep 16 - 02:22 AM

To Shaw and Greg F.

In answer to your posts:

Keith A of Hertford - 08 Sep 16 - 02:59 PM

"Refugee camps a permanent stain on the landscape? Well what does that remark tell us about your sheer lack of humanity?"

It tells us much about the lack of humanity of their hosts.

Thank you Keith saved me the trouble.

The so called "Leaders" of the Arabs of Palestine, and the governments of so called "friendly" or "allied" neighbouring states have deliberately kept and held the "Palestinian" refugees in camps, in poverty and in despair to be used as they see fit as political pawns and a source of revenue from which they make millions - take a look at the personal fortunes amassed by Yasser Arafat and by Mahmoud Abbas.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 08:13 PM

the most revolting, disgusting and hate-filled bile

That's our Professor!

vide 07 Sep 16 - 04:53 PM

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 07:38 PM

And I must say, Keith, that your lying denial of what happened at Sabra and Shatila is far and away the most revolting, disgusting and hate-filled bile that I've ever seen on this website by a country mile. You make me sick.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 03:58 PM

And what precisely was in those those " media reports," Keith? Can you quote me one "media report" that concluded without fear or favour that he made antisemitic remarks? No you cannot. The "full video with sound" contains nothing even remotely antisemitic. You are living in a dream world, Keith. Wadworth has spent most of his life campaigning against discrimination against minorities and is vehemently opposed to all forms of racism, including antisemitism, and has worked alongside Jews to fight prejudice. He said he didn't know that the highly-disreputable and dishonest Smeeth was Jewish. You don't believe him. Tough shit. Maybe we'll get him on the NEC then you'll have to believe him! 😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 03:32 PM

WHAT THIS PAIR ARE SUPPORTING
AND THIS
AND THIS
"Stop making idiotic ridiculous claims and exaggerated emotive assertions that do not even stand up to the most cursory examination."
And you produce evidence for uyour disgustingly inhuman denialks
Atrocity denying in the face of evidence at its very worst
The Sabra Shatila massace is a done deal - the Israeli's facilitated it, armed the killers, illuminated the killing, helped bury the bodies, and gave the killers safe passage out of the country.
All documented and fully accepted except by the atrocity deniers - and every claim backed up by produced evidence on this forum.
The response arrogant strutting denial and two people who never produce anything else.
Where is youir evideence - either of you (or don't you need eveidence again, as you have claimed in the past?
Jim Carroll
WHERE ISRAEL STANDS IN THE HUMAN RIGHTS LEAGUE

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 02:59 PM

Refugee camps a permanent stain on the landscape? Well what does that remark tell us about your sheer lack of humanity?

It tells us much about the lack of humanity of their hosts.
Those Arab countries who forced the refugees in camps to the second and third generation, denying them citizenship and employment rights.
Meanwhile Israel, on its tiny sliver of land, accepted and integrated many times more refugees than all those in the Arab's camps.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 02:55 PM

Steve,
And that's supposed to be your proof that he was expelled "for antisemitism," is it, Keith?

It is proof Steve. He said he was expelled because of "media reports" which were all about his antisemitic outbursts.
Those reports included full video with sound of the whole thing.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 02:51 PM

The Israelis facilitated it in the manner I have described - there is no question of that.

They could not facilitate what they did not know would happen.

Eye witnesses, including the American Jewish nurse, reported Israeli bulldozers clearing the site in order to dig mass graves.

No she did not.
She saw the dozer levelling ground by the camp entrance, in full view of the main road and the Kuwait Embassy.
She saw no bodies being buried.

The lighing was provided over the three nights of the massacre
Two nights Jim. The first night the nurse (Siegel) said the camp was silent. "No screaming, no cries for help, no human sound, nothing."

The second night she slept.

what the **** did they need lights for?
To identify fighter's and their positions.
You do not need flares to massacre civilians.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 01:21 PM

Tells a great deal more about his lack of inelligence.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 01:01 PM

Refugee camps a permanent stain on the landscape? Well what does that remark tell us about your sheer lack of humanity?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 12:55 PM

And that's supposed to be your proof that he was expelled "for antisemitism," is it, Keith? When are you going to learn that you will always be found out when you don't tell the truth?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 12:08 PM

Jim Carroll - 08 Sep 16 - 08:49 AM

"It is unverifiable because the Israelis buried the bodies and built a sports stadium over the mass graves to ascertain that the exact figure would never be known."

So in the middle of a military operation under the eyes of the World's Media, the Lebanese and the redeployed MNF the Israelis succeeded in transporting, storing all these bodies and then excavating a mass grave and building a Sports Stadium over the site??? What is the name of this Stadium and where is it located? The nearest to the Sabra and Shatila part of Beirut is the Camille Chamoun Stadium, the largest in the country - only thing wrong with that Jom?

The Camille Chamoun Sports City Stadium was built in 1957, it was destroyed in 1982 and rebuilt 1997 and finally reopened 1998?

By the way Jom - "to ascertain" something is "to find something out" it does not mean "to make sure".

"The transient nature of these refugee camps makes it possible that the actual figure might be higher than this."

The transient nature of these refugee camps??? Are you kidding you mug they have been a permanent stain on the landscape of the region since 1948.

Palestinian Refugee Camps

Stop making idiotic ridiculous claims and exaggerated emotive assertions that do not even stand up to the most cursory examination.

The massacre of unarmed civilians in the Shatila and Sabrs refugee camps was NEVER fully investigated and documented - FACT.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 11:11 AM

"No it was not. It was the Israeli Army that stopped it."
Now you are lying in the face of facts Keith
The Israelis facilitated it in the manner I have described - there is no question of that.
"Those things were supplied to facilitate the removal of Palestinian fighters from the camp."
Don't be completely stupid - if you are going to defend thuis atrocity, at least make an effort
The killers were transported TO the site in Israeli vehicles
The weapons weer supplied before they began the slaughter
The lighing was provided over the three nights of the massacre
The withdrawal from the site took place in broad daylight in the middle of the morning - what the **** did they need lights for?
Eye witnesses, including the American Jewish nurse, reported Israeli bulldozers clearing the site in order to dig mass graves.
Despite the seriousness of this incident, the Israeli Government refused to hold an enquiry until 400,000 thousand Israeli citizens took to the streets (the largest public protest in Israel's history) demanding one
You really are a sad excuse for a human being
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 10:39 AM

Steve,
"Mr Wadsworth today expressed regret for any offence caused to Ms Smeeth and revealed to LBC radio that he had been expelled from the party due to "media reports"."

The only media reports concerning Wadsworth at the time was his behaviour towards Smeeth.

"This is something I'm going to challenge and I'm getting a lot of Jewish support."
https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/news/76810/ruth-smeeth-heckler-expelled-labour-party

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 10:35 AM

Jim,
The massacre was carried out with the full co-operation of the Israeli Army

No it was not. It was the Israeli Army that stopped it.

but by them supplying access, transport, weapons and illumination.
Those things were supplied to facilitate the removal of Palestinian fighters from the camp.
There was no opportunity after the massacre for anyone to hide and bury bodies. The world's press and numerous NGOs were there.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 09:01 AM

You're being evasive, Keith. I have been unable to verify from any Labour source that he was denied membership "for antisemitism." Now either you know different AND CAN GIVE ME THE OFFICIAL SOURCE or you're making it up. I'm quite open-minded on this and don't mind if you can prove me wrong. You're very keen to bollock people for saying unsupportable things. So, evidence please that he was expelled "for antisemitism." And no more evasion.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 08:49 AM

"Only problem with that statement Jom is that the 3,500 number is an unverified estimate. "
It is unverifiable because the Israelis buried the bodies and built a sports stadium over the mass graves to ascertain that the exact figure would never be known.
The transient nature of these refugee camps makes it possible that the actual figure might be higher than this.
Not a problem, as far as I'm concerned, a massacre of unarmed people at this level is a crime against humanity comparable to the extermination of the Jewish people in everything other than numbers.
Why should it matter that there were ONLY 3,000 0r 2,000, 1,000 unarmed civil and massacred?
The massacre was carried out with the full co-operation of the Israeli Army - not just by them standing by and doing nothing, which would have been a crime anyway, but by them supplying access, transport, weapons and illumination.
A bit sick to suggest "but it might have been only...", but par for the course for you people and very, very reminiscent of the arguments put forward by David Irving and his ilk in order to excuse the massacre of the Jewish people by the Nazis.
I'm sure that you will continue playing your numbers game though - what else have you, other than Keith's outright denial?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 08:23 AM

Steve,
You wish to tar Wadworth with the antisemitism brush.

No. It was the Party that suspended him for antisemitism, and I am sure they had good reason.

Jim,
Here, you are appeasing the massacre of 3,500 unarmed civilians, fully investigated and documented.

No investigation held Israel directly responsible, and there is nothing "documented" that says they were.
You had to go back over thirty years, and you still have nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 08:22 AM

Does whether there were 35 or 3500 change the fact that a massacre took place.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 08:03 AM

Jim Carroll - 08 Sep 16 - 06:18 AM

"you are appeasing the massacre of 3,500 unarmed civilians, fully investigated and documented."

Only problem with that statement Jom is that the 3,500 number is an unverified estimate. No investigation into the numbers killed was ever allowed by the Lebanese Government let alone completed, therefore it would be impossible for anything related to these killings to ever be fully documented as you claim.

Source:

https://un-truth.com/tag/sabra-and-shatila

Extract:

"In terms of casualties, no census of the dead has ever been attempted {That is a bit different from what you are stating as an absolute fact isn't it Jom?}. In the days following the massacre, the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) and other relief agencies collected the bodies and disinterred the shallow graves, giving survivors the chance to identify relatives. But efforts to establish lists of the dead soon fell victim to the priority of 'national reconciliation'. Bashir Gemayel's brother Amin was elected president of the republic on 21 September (with the Muslim deputies this time participating in the vote), and the Phalange role was soon downplayed or even ignored, exclusive blame being placed on Saad Haddad's men and Israel.

"After going through the motions in October of appointing a commission of inquiry, whose findings were never released, the subject of the massacre was virtually dropped. Any effort to collect names became virtually taboo, to the point that the ICRC has never published the names it did collect, and those conducting field work on the subject had to do so with extreme discretion. Such was the climate that even death certificates became almost impossible to obtain.

"Nonetheless, there were a number of estimates in the days following the massacre. According to official Lebanese sources published in mid-October 1982, 762 bodies had been recovered in Sabra and Shatila: 212 unidentified bodies reburied in mass graves, 302 bodies identified and cremated by local rescue teams, and 248 identified and buried by the ICRC. In addition, according to the same sources, about 1,200 bodies were claimed and buried by their families.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 06:51 AM

Incidentally, I have searched the web in vain for confirmation that Wadworth was denied Labour membership for antisemitism. That's what you have clearly told this forum, Keith. Please verify that from a first-hand official Labour source.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 06:20 AM

That's a serious accusation to make, Jim. Unfortunately, it's deadly accurate.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 06:18 AM

Keith
You are the Pro Israeli equivalent of a Holocaust denier, and every argument you put up on the subject of Israel and where the Israeli regime is involved such as it's attempts to malign the Labour Party, had to be seen in that light.
Here, you are appeasing the massacre of 3,500 unarmed civilians, fully investigated and documented.
That is just about as low as any (would-be, in your case) human being can sink to.
The fact that you do so so crudely, shamelessly and consistently, makes you what you are and your behaviour gives us an insight into what the Pro-Israel mob is - appeasers of mass murder.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 06:07 AM

They were verbatim quotes, Teribus, not some reinterpretation. I'll leave you and Keith to that sort of Wheatcroftesque trickery. 😂

Ok, so nothing antisemitic in the quote I gave you then. But you both declare that he said more. So what was it he said, then? Put up or shut up. What words did he use that were antisemitic? Not someone else's body language, not no smoke without fire, not someone unconnected with the exchanges talking over someone's shoulder, not a fake flood of tears and staged storming out by a woman who is an avid supporter of the Israeli regime, boycott-opposer and prime mover in the UK pro-Israel lobby, not Pienaar allegedly walking out (are you sure he wasn't going for a lash?), not a kiss and cuddle from Shami. The words. You wish to tar Wadworth with the antisemitism brush. Antisemitism consists of using hate-WORDS. What were those words then? What do you know that we don't? You both hate the Labour Party, so isn't it odd that when it just so happens that Labour does something that appears to fit your personal agenda they suddenly become all sweetness and light and purveyors of the sword of truth? What a pair of comedians you are.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 04:59 AM

No fighters were found in the camp

Yes they were. Some are shown in Robert Fisk's video.

You put the version of events presented by Israel's enemies.
I put Israel's side of the story.
What is wrong with that?

Did any decent liberal democratic country hold Israel responsible for that massacre?
No.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 04:26 AM

"here were a few massacres in that camp, all by Arabs."
Then the Israelis didn't do what they did -
No fighters were found in the camp
This is exactly what I refer to with your re-writing history in order to get the Israelis off the hook.
You have the facts, you either deny or ignore them.
Thanks for making my point so well Keith
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 04:19 AM

Steve, Wadsworth said much more than you just quoted.
The Party suspended him for antisemitism.
Take it up with the Party not me.

Jim,
There were a few massacres in that camp, all by Arabs.

The Israeli army facilitated assisted covered up the massacre of 3,500 unarmed refugees

No. They facilitated and assisted an Arab militia to go in and take on fighters in the camp.
You need flares to do that at night.
You do not need flares to murder civilians in their homes in a crowded camp.
The massacre was in daylight.

The massacre was committed by Arabs.
The Israelis moved in and stopped it.

Israel's own enquiry declared Arial Defence Minister Arial Sharon personally responsible for the massacre;

Only indirectly responsible, in that he should have foreseen the risk of a revenge massacre.

All that stuff about bulldozers and stadia and thousands of victims is wild propaganda.
No evidence for any of it.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 02:41 AM

Steve Shaw - 07 Sep 16 - 03:45 PM

Basically a cut'n'paste of Craig Miller's blog.

Only thing about that Shaw is that that was not everything Marc Wadsworth said was it? That is only what was filmed. Please explain why the recorded reaction of the rest of the audience to what Wadsworth was saying was so marked. Please explain the reaction of the man sitting behind Ruth Smeeth' left shoulder "That's anti-Semitism at a conference about anti-Semitism", shortly after Ruth Smeeth walks out he and someone who looked like BBC News Deputy Editor John Pienaar also walk out?

Marc Wadsworth's later conversation with Corbyn where he talks about him "outing Smeeth talking to the Torygraph".

If nothing anti-Semitic was said why did Shami Chakrabarti apologise personally to Ruth Smeeth on behalf of herself and Jeremy Corbyn for what had been said and what had happened?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Sep 16 - 04:53 PM

When dealing with T-Bird, Bubo, and The Professor it may be appropriate to recall a proverb of long standing:

"He that wrestles with a turd is sure to be beshit, whether he fall over or under."

[ That is, he that contends with vile persons will get nothing but a stain by it. ]

             REF: A Compleat Collection of English Proverbs. John Ray, London, 1737



Thus, as it ever was...

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Sep 16 - 03:54 PM

Apropos of the Daily Mail, Teribus, I confess that I too resort to it, about once a fortnight. What a dreadful rag it is. I get mine free with my Waitrose card as long as I spend at least five quid (I recommend the own-label Spanish Mellow and Fruity red). My removing it from the shelf serves two noble purposes, to reveal to me the horrors of the mass-circulation tabloids and to release at least one unfortunate from getting their hands on a copy. It should be renamed the Daily Bumwipe. I could get the Guardian instead but I already have that at home. My only other option is the Times. Pass the sick bag, somebody.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Sep 16 - 03:45 PM

Right, Keith here's what Wadsworth said at the Chakrabarti report launch.

"I saw that the Telegraph handed a copy of a press release to Ruth Smeeth MP so you can see who is working hand in hand. If you look around this room, how many African Caribbean and Asian people are there? We need to get our house in order." (There's a video of him saying this on the Independent website, by the way).

Got that, Keith? Now. Here's what Smeeth said in response to that.

"I was verbally attacked by a Momentum activist and Jeremy Corbyn supporter who used traditional anti-Semitic slurs to attack me for being part of a "media conspiracy". It is beyond belief that someone could come to the launch of a report about anti-Semitism in the Labour Party and espouse such vile conspiracy theories against Jewish people."

Now what I would like you to do, Keith, is pick over what Wadsworth said and tell me precisely, no smears, generalisations or slurs now, what was antisemitic about what he said. You may wish, of course, to bear in mind that he said he didn't know she was Jewish. I actually think that makes no difference one way or the other. Come on, Keith. Which of his words were antisemitic and why do you think so?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Sep 16 - 03:34 PM

"What Israeli atrocity have I denied?"
Last word
The Israeli army facilitated assisted covered up the massacre of 3,500 unarmed refugees - they provided and transport for the killers and allowed them access into the camp, standing by and doing nothing for three days and nights - when refugees attempted to escape they were turned back by Israeli soldiers
The army provided illumination for three nights so the massacre could continue, uninterrupted by darkness.
DOver three days, unarmed men, women and children were slaughtered, the women were raped and then had their throats cut by their killers - those who were pregnant were disemboweled and their unborn children were ripped from their wombs.
At the end of the massacre, the army supplied transport to the airport to enable the killers to escape, provided bulldozers to bury the bodies, and eventually built a sports stadium over the mass graves so the exact number of deaths could never be calculated.
Israel's own enquiry declared Arial Defence Minister Arial Sharon personally responsible for the massacre; he initially refused to resign as and the then Prime Minister, Menachim Begin refused to fire him.
He eventually reigned, yet after a period of inaction, he was appointed Prime Minister and remained in that post until ill-health forced him to quit, hereby giving Israel's official blessing for his part in the massacre.
You have denied this ever since I first raised it some years ago and will almost certainly do so again, now.
That a big enough atrocity for you?
Plenty ore where that came from - we haven't touched this century yet!
Anyway - game over.
Let's clear the ring, wipe up the blood and let those who wish to continue do so.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Sep 16 - 01:44 PM

What Israeli atrocity have I denied?
There are two sides to any story.
I just give theirs.

Why have you embarked on a campaign of smears, none of which you can substantiate, against abuse victim Ruth Smeeth?

"Smeeth attended the conference, as I sated - that for me, is enough to link her with the pro Israel campaign"

So what? Like Steve she is pro-Israel.
She has family there. What is wrong with that?

"She supported Netunyahu' racist slur of the Palestinian people"

How do you know she supported it?
What was the racist slur? Quote please.

"She is also an employee of a group whose job it is to attract the elite to supporting the Israeli regime"

Details and evidence??

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Sep 16 - 12:40 PM

"I have never defended any atrocity."
Denying they happened is defending it - you really aren't claiming you don't do that, are you?
Not enough space here to give all the examples of that
We watch it on tele - you deny it seems to be the routine
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Sep 16 - 12:30 PM

Why do you always defend Israel's atrocities - without exception?

I have never defended any atrocity.
Will you quote me doing so?
You can't!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Sep 16 - 12:26 PM

Rag, I said your double standards for antisemitism and other forms of racism were antisemitic, but instead of accusing you of antisemitism I just asked you to explain it.
I have never accused anyone of antisemitism.

Jim,
So anybody can walk in off the street to a think tank conference addressed by a leading government figure

Anyone with an interest could attend. Not "off the street." That is not how conferences are organised.

"Steve is also pro Israel. "
Is he really - don't understand that one at all!!
Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 03 Sep 16 - 08:28 AM
There is absolutely nothing wrong with being pro-Israel. I'm pro-Israel myself and I've said so here many times.

I have linked her to the Israeli propaganda campaign to prevent the boycott of Israeli goods from spreading - which is what this is all about.

Of course she is against a boycott targeted at Israel. I am sure most Israelis are too!

You accuse,
"Both Ms Smeeth and Michael Foster are Pro-Israeli activists defending the war crimes of a terrorist State "

"with links to the American Security Services."

"She has been described as an anti-Palestinian racist".

You have produced nothing to support any of that shit.
She was mentioned here only because she has been a victim of vile, antisemitic abuse, and your response has been to join in with it.
Why are you doing this to her?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Sep 16 - 10:58 AM

"The Hezlyer Conference is just an annual event run by the IPS think tank."
So anybody can walk in off the street to a think tank conference addressed by a leading government figure - must remember that next time I'm passing through Westminster!!
"Steve is also pro Israel. "
Is he really - don't understand that one at all!!
"That seems to be the only thing you have against her, "
I have linked her to the Israeli propaganda campaign to prevent the boycott of Israeli goods from spreading - which is what this is all about.
If you can't see the racism in targeting
Why do you always defend Israel's atrocities - without exception?
For instance, you are probably about to tell us they don't commit any
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Sep 16 - 10:45 AM

It is obvious from this, and other posts, that your understanding of English is at variance with the rest of the people who speak the language.

However this will be clear enough for you to comprehend. You lied about calling me antisimetic and you are lying now and you will continue to lie.

Yet another failing to add to the many.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Sep 16 - 10:32 AM

The Hezlyer Conference is just an annual event run by the IPS think tank.
" IPS conducts policy research on a broad analytical scope to identify evolving issues and trends and to assess emerging risks and opportunities. Concentrating on Middle East politics and Israel's foreign affairs, IPS also invests in innovative methodologies and policy analysis focusing on political/strategic risk assessment and management."

"pro Israel nodding dog."
Steve is also pro Israel. She has family in Israel.

That seems to be the only thing you have against her, and it is nothing.
Stop persecuting her with your baseless claims.
Why are you doing it?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Sep 16 - 10:18 AM

Jim, there is no racism in the piece I linked to and you pasted.
It is a factual discourse on demographic projections which all countries do.

YOU HAVE STILL PRODUCED NOTHING TO SHOW THAT SHE AGREED WITH ANYTHING HE SAID!!!!

Yes - but the fact that she was a delegate at shoulch a high-powered conference establishes her credentials as a pro Israel nodding dog.

No it does not.

"Completely untrue. "
Yes you have and have been provided with the examples several times

Completely untrue. Not once Jim.

Rag,
"Such double standard are themselves antisemitic Rag. We are entitled to an explanation"

Such double standards are antisemitic, and I suggested you explain why you were making them.
You declined, but I still did not accuse you of being antisemitic.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Sep 16 - 07:20 AM

From the professor;

"Such double standard are themselves antisemitic Rag. We are entitled to an explanation"

So you accuse me, with no evidence, of being anti-Semitic and then you lie about accusing me. Par for the course really, lies and deceit.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Sep 16 - 06:52 AM

"Please quote him racially attacking anyone."
Have done Keith - the fact that your racism excludes that expounded by Israei statesmen is your problem.
"Did she? "
Yes - but the fact that she was a delegate at shoulch a high-powered conference establishes her credentials as a pro Israel nodding dog.
"Completely untrue. "
Yes you have and have been provided with the examples several times
I re-entered one argument when you accused people here of being "racist" - by providing examples of your own.
I assume you're not going to respond to this piece of antisemitism of your own - goood an excuse for reminding you of it
"From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 12:57 PM
Silly songs don't count, or I could post "Who Do You
Think You Are Kidding Mr Hitler" as proof to the contrary!"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Sep 16 - 06:15 AM

Jim,
Ruth Smeeth attended the conference where Netunyahu racially attacked the Palestinian people

Please quote him racially attacking anyone.

and supported that statement-

Did she? You have provided nothing to support that claim, and there was no racial attack to support anyway.

You have accused several people, including me, of Antisemitism for criticing Israel

Completely untrue.

Rag,
I'm busy making cheese, look back through your own posts professor.

I have.
You are wrong as ever.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Sep 16 - 06:10 AM

I'm busy making cheese, look back through your own posts professor.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Sep 16 - 06:09 AM

"The Party should not have reinstated Shah if she was still being investigated by the police."
The announcement that she was being investigated was announced 2 days ago
"Ruth Smeeth by posting the same baseless accusations here.
Ruth Smeeth attended the conference where Netunyahu racially attacked the Palestinian people and supported that statement- not as the daughter of Israelis but as a British Politician.
You have accused several people, including me, of Antisemitism for criticing Israel
Your concern is defending Israeli terrorism, your attitude to the Jewish People is doing the hunting.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Sep 16 - 05:54 AM

Rag,
"I have not accused anyone of it" (Anti-semitism) Oh yes you have professor. Me for one.

I have not Rag. Produce the quote in full please.

Jim,
The Party should not have reinstated Shah if she was still being investigated by the police.

And Jim, please explain why you have joined in the online persecution of Ruth Smeeth by posting the same baseless accusations here.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Sep 16 - 05:37 AM

"It is clearly you who haven't the faintest idea what antisemitism"
By Archibald Ramsey from the Red Book, written long after the Nazis had embarked on the persecution of the Jewish People. - compared, by you to the theme song from 'Dad's Army'

Onward, conscript army…you have naught to fear.
Isaac Hore-Belisha …will lead you from the rear.
Clad by Monty Burton [Jewish clothes- and uniform maker],…
fed on Lyons' pies [Jewish restaurant and tea shop chain];
Fight for Yiddish conquests …while the Briton dies.
Onward, conscript army, marching on to war.
Fight and die for Jewry… as we did before.

You must die for Poland…pay your debt of thanks
All your benefactors…international banks.
So place against the Germans…beneath the Jewish star
Onward toward the shambles…Goy cattle that you are!
"Poor, persecuted Jewry"…will finance war again.
Forward for the slaughter… for the Hebrews' gain.

Driven toward the shambles…like a flock of sheep
By lying propaganda…by their plans laid deep.
So for Israel Moses Sieff…you must fight and die
That Marks & Spencer's [department store] neon sign…
May still light up our sky.
Forward, on to Poland…10 million men shall fall,
That Judah's reign of terror…May hold us all in thrall.

From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 12:57 PM
Silly songs don't count, or I could post "Who Do You
Think You Are Kidding Mr Hitler" as proof to the contrary!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Sep 16 - 05:33 AM

"I have not accused anyone of it" (Anti-semitism) Oh yes you have professor. Me for one.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Sep 16 - 05:07 AM

If the SINGLE Labour MP to be officially investigated for promoting race hatred so far, is found guilty, she should be punished under the law, as should any individual in Britain - including foreign ministers who use terms like "piccaninnies" and editors who publish articles suggesting that that black people have lower IQs, or describing Papua Ne Guinesns as "cannibals"..........
So far, there has been one case which MIGHT be found to take further.
Let's see what happens when the Tories embark on their investigation into Islamophobia in their party - that we should all live that long!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Sep 16 - 04:24 AM

"Sod off, Keith. You haven't the faintest idea what antisemitism is."

I have not accused anyone of it.
I have just reported Labour's denunciations of it.
You two just deny it all.

E.g. Shah, whose antisemitism was recognised by the NEC, the Party leadership, Corbyn and Shah herself, but denied by you two.

It is clearly you who haven't the faintest idea what antisemitism is, and are incapable of recognising blatant examples that are obvious to everyone else!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Sep 16 - 03:58 AM

This was the Mail quote.
"Last night West Yorkshire Police said an 'investigation is ongoing', the first time it has confirmed the MP (Naz Shah)is under suspicion."
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3773718/Police-probe-MP-Naz-Shah-online-anti-Israel-rant-Labour-let-in.html#ixzz4JYQBkFDR
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

Whatever your opinion of the paper, that is not something they could get away with making up.
The quote is genuine, and other papers have run it.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Sep 16 - 03:09 AM

"Pleased that you said that Shaw - Jom does."
As you never produce anything from any newspaper, journal or book, can we assume you don't (or can't) read any anything?
That's the impression you leave.
I've really got under your skin haven't I?
Hope the sleeping pills manage to get you a decent night's sleep.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Sep 16 - 02:24 AM

Steve Shaw - 06 Sep 16 - 12:02 PM

"Finally, no sane person in the UK ever resorts to the Daily Mail."

Pleased that you said that Shaw - Jom does.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Sep 16 - 09:19 PM

Ah, bollocks, boobs, aren't free speech and democracy so bloody inconvenient! I bet that, if you lived in Israel, you'd want Harretz banned!

Now remind me. What was that you were quoting from the... DAILY MAIL...?


😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 06 Sep 16 - 08:47 PM

Last week I wrote critically about Celtic fans responsible for a pro-Palestinian flag display at a match against an Israeli team. I would have been equally critical had Rangers flown Israeli flags during a match against Palestinians.

Apart from anything else, it's atrociously bad manners.

Football is supposed to bring people together, not tear them apart, which is why Uefa bans "gestures, words, objects or any other means to transmit any message of an ideological, religious, offensive or provocative nature".

The twitter abuse from Celtic fanatics and Israel-haters was predictably vicious, and there were the usual crazy allegations against Israel from ignoramuses, anti-Zionists and anti-semites.



Bigotry feeds on ignorance when it comes to the hatred of Israel, says Ruth Dudley Edwards

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Sep 16 - 08:00 PM

Yeah, Bubo, them damm Jewish anti-semites are a real pain in the arse, ain't they???

Jesus wept( as it were)

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 06 Sep 16 - 07:12 PM

The damage is incalculable. There is sufficient evidence to suggest that in recent years, Haaretz newspaper has caused more harm to the image of Israel than the combined efforts of our adversaries.

Although he passionately denies being post-Zionist, Amos imposed his radical left-wing ideology onto the newspaper which has now been transformed into a vehicle that provides much of the anti-Israeli sentiment and even anti-Semitic lies and distortions that are a boon to our adversaries.

It is difficult to comprehend the depths to which this once highly regarded newspaper has descended.

The Jerusalem Post

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Sep 16 - 05:18 PM

Jaysus Jim, don't mention Haaretz to booboo! Dontcha know that they're unreliable Jew-haters that must be cherrypicked! Fer chrissake Jim, play safe with booboo and stick with the neutrals such as the Jewish Chronicle, the Jerusalem Post, the Campaign Against Antisemitism and the Daily Mail! 😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Sep 16 - 03:01 PM

"You need to overcome your anti-Jewish bigotry."
And you need to learn the difference between the Jewish people and ISRAELI FASCISM
IN MORE DETAIL
AND AGAIN
Jim Carrroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 06 Sep 16 - 02:30 PM

You need more reliable sources....

You need to overcome your anti-Jewish bigotry.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Sep 16 - 01:41 PM

"Sod off, Keith. You haven't the faintest idea what antisemitism is."
Don't feed the troll Steve - Uncle Tone (above) was right
It's ****** up far too may threads
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Sep 16 - 01:35 PM

Steve, it is you who refuse to recognise antisemitism that is obvious to everyone else.
Everyone else is using definitions very like those of EUMC, which you reject.

Jim, staying or going, tell us why you made all those accusations against Ruth Smeeth.

And, why you can not support any of them with a single verifiable fact?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Sep 16 - 01:09 PM

Sod off, Keith. You haven't the faintest idea what antisemitism is.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Sep 16 - 12:59 PM

Who said I'm going Keith?
I'm stopping this dialogue with someone who has no concept of truth and self-respect; that's all.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Sep 16 - 12:48 PM

Steve, are you still denying the antisemitism in Shah's comments, even though they have been recognised by the NEC, the Party leadership, Corbyn and Shah herself?

Whatever definition of antisemitism you are working to is clearly inadequate Steve.
Blatant antisemitism is invisible to you!

Jim, before you go, tell us why you are making all these accusations against Ruth Smeeth.

Then tell us why you can not support any of them with a single verifiable fact.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Sep 16 - 12:02 PM

You need more reliable sources, boobs. She said Israel, not "Israel's Jews." Israel is a country containing Jews, Arabs, Christians and none of the above. And the "Campaign Against Antisemtism" [sic] along with the Chronicle are hardly setups that anyone other than confirmed delusionals would regard as neutral, let's face it. Finally, no sane person in the UK ever resorts to the Daily Mail. You and your sources. Tsk. 😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 06 Sep 16 - 11:02 AM

British lawmaker who shared anti-Semitic Facebook posts under police investigation

(JTA) — A British lawmaker who was suspended from the Labour party for anti-Semitic comments posted on social media is being investigated by police.

Naz Shah, who was readmitted to the party in July, could be charged with inciting religious hatred, an offense punishable by up to seven years in prison, the Daily Mail reported Monday.

Shah, 42, one of nine Muslims in Parliament, was suspended in May for sharing a post on Facebook suggesting Israel's Jews should be relocated to the US and tweeting the hashtag "#IsraelApartheid" and a quote saying, "Never forget that everything Hitler did in Germany was legal." Another post called on her friends to back a poll criticizing Israel.

The posts had appeared in early August, 2014, during the Gaza war between Israel and Hamas. She later apologized for the posts.

She was one of at least 20 Labour figures who had been either suspended or kicked out of the party this spring amid intense public scrutiny over the proliferation of anti-Semitic and vitriolic anti-Israel rhetoric after the 2014 election of Jeremy Corbyn to lead the party.

The West Yorkshire Police opened an investigation into the social media posts after receiving several complaints, the Mail reported. The investigation reportedly is in its final stages. The full investigation file will be handed over to the Crown Prosecution Service within days, according to the newspaper.

A spokesman for the British non-profit organization, Campaign Against Antisemtism, told the Mail that the Labour Party still has not come to grips with the problem of anti-Semitism in the party ranks.

"If it is true that there is an ongoing police investigation into anti-Semitic hate crime allegedly committed by Naz Shah, and Labour was aware of it but decided to end her suspension before the police investigation had concluded, then this is yet further evidence of the Party's abject failure to grasp its anti-Semitism problem," he said.

JTA

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Sep 16 - 11:01 AM

" juvenile flaming threads such as this one"
Uncle Tone
Apologies - won't happen again with this feller - not worth it
Welcome back
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 06 Sep 16 - 11:00 AM

Jewish British MP under police protection following anti-Semitic death threat

September 6, 2016

(JTA) – A Jewish member of the British Parliament was put under police protection following an anti-Semitic death threat on Facebook.

The message from July repeatedly called Ruth Smeeth a "Yid" and said "the gallows would be a fine and fitting place" for the Labour Party MP to "swing from," the Jewish Chronicle reported last week. It also expressed strong support for Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn, who is in an election battle to remain in his post.

Smeeth, 37, told the British media that she holds Corbyn personally responsible for the actions of his supporters.

"I expect Jeremy to show true leadership, which means calling out individuals at times by name to say what they are doing it is unacceptable," she told the British Sun newspaper last week. "He must stand up and say enough is enough, and he has done nowhere near enough yet."

Smeeth, who represents a district in Stoke-on-Trent, the largest city in western England's Staffordshire County, reportedly has received 25,000 abusive or anti-Semitic posts. She had panic buttons and CCTV surveillance cameras installed in her home, the Chronicle reported.

Corbyn, who has called Hezbollah and Hamas "friends," has been accused of fostering an atmosphere of anti-Semitism in the Labour Party.

According to the BBC, the threat to Smeeth was issued soon after she fled the launch of Labour's report into anti-Semitism in tears after being accused by an activist of colluding with the right-wing press.

JTA

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 06 Sep 16 - 10:27 AM

From Steve: Yet oddly, Uncle, according to your posting record you rarely, if ever, went below the line as a participant (very sane of you!) Well I suppose you get the odd flame war "up there" as well, but Shirley not enough to get you to quit...😒

I confess to giving our Dick Miles a rough time, I think in response to what I saw then as a bit of pomposity, but we have since met eye-to- steely-eye, shaken hands and put it behind us.

Well, I have any road up.

Been busy elsewhere though.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Sep 16 - 09:43 AM

Jim, your first quote is of two journalists in the Irish Times.
Your second is from WRMA. Hardly reliable sources.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Sep 16 - 09:35 AM

Steve, I said that the Party did not believe Wadsworth's protestations and denials. That is why they suspended him.

I do not know the whole of the NEC.
"The NEC are appalled by recent cases of anti-Semitic abuse. "
That was a quote from a report on an NEC meeting.
"The entire NEC recognises the seriousness of this issue " was another from the same report.
http://labourlist.org/2016/05/alice-perrys-nec-report-corbyn-fighting-prejudice-and-listening-to-voters-online/

Jim, tell us why you are making all these accusations against Ruth Smeeth.

Then tell us why you can not support any of them with a single verifiable fact.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Sep 16 - 09:25 AM

Yet oddly, Uncle, according to your posting record you rarely, if ever, went below the line as a participant (very sane of you!) Well I suppose you get the odd flame war "up there" as well, but Shirley not enough to get you to quit...😒

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 06 Sep 16 - 08:55 AM

I gave up on Mudcat three years ago because of juvenile flaming threads such as this one, especially when I found myself being drawn in and upsetting folks too (Sorry Dick). I was hoping that maybe things have improved.

Oh well. I suppose it just means ignoring certain contributors. Life's too short for bickering now.

Can't we play nicely?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Sep 16 - 08:32 AM

"A July 9 story in the Israeli newspaper Haaretz reported that Netanyahu used the epithet "self-hating Jews" to describe Axelrod and Emanuel, who are viewed by the Israeli government as the driving force behind Obama's push to pressure Israel to freeze settlement activity. Only when the quote was picked up by American newspapers did Netanyahu's spokesman, Mark Regev, issue a statement denying that the prime minister had used that term"
http://www.wrmea.org/2009-november/israel-and-judaism-attempts-to-silence-critics-of-israeli-policies-as-self-hating-jews-a-failing-strategy.html
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Sep 16 - 08:10 AM

Wadsworth is a long-time campaigner against racism and all forms of discrimination. When he made his remarks HE DID NOT KNOW THAT SHE WAS A JEW.

You don't believe him, do you, Keith? You cherrypick who to believe in Labour, don't you, Keith? How many times now have you supported the "whole of the NEC" when they've supposedly expressed how appalled they are at the antisemitic this, that and the other? Do you know who is on the "whole of the NEC," Keith? Why, there are a good few people on there who you wouldn't personally trust to tell you the time, yet, when you glean that they're allegedly saying things that suit your warped agenda, they're almost saintly in their honesty and truthfulness! And if you REALLY can't see that Bibi's singling out of the largest non-Jewish section of the Israeli people as a demographic problem is blatant racism, then I'm afraid you clearly haven't a clue as to the meaning of the word. Well, we know that anyway, I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Sep 16 - 08:09 AM

"The "regime" has not done that.
Yes it has Keith and you were given proof of that - from Haaretz and from Jews throughot the world
You lied - you lied about lying - now you are denying facts
"Israel has announced a $26 million investment in an anti-BDS campaign. Accusing its non-Jewish critics of anti-Semitism and its Jewish critics of being "self-hating Jews" is a central element of this campaign."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Sep 16 - 07:37 AM

Jim,
the regime "have insulted all Jews who disagree with them as "self-hating" is made up shit Jim

it is "made up shit" Jim.
The "regime" has not done that.
There is a free press that disagrees with them all the time, and an opposition whose very purpose is to criticise the "regime."

Jim, tell us why you are making all these accusations against Ruth Smeeth.

Then tell us why you can not support any of them with a single verifiable fact.

It looks a lot like prejudice Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 06 Sep 16 - 07:31 AM

You are just running with the pack of antisemites

He's lead dog in the pack of sickos.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Sep 16 - 07:24 AM

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
"So, your assertion that the regime "have insulted all Jews who disagree with them as "self-hating" is made up shit Jim, like so many of your claims."
Somewhat stupid to lie about something you said on the same thread
Now will you piss off?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Sep 16 - 07:17 AM

"I have made no such accusation."
Oh, for Christ's sake!!!
do you wonder why nobody wants any part of you?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Sep 16 - 06:31 AM

apologise for accusing me of making pu the "Self hating Jews" statement

I have made no such accusation.

Smeeth attended the conference, as I sated - that for me, is enough to link her with the pro Israel campaign

So what? Like Steve she is pro-Israel.
She has family there. What is wrong with that?

She supported Netunyahu' racist slur of the Palestinian people

How do you know she supported it?
What was the racist slur anyway? Quote please.

She is also an employee of a group whose job it is to attract the elite to supporting the Israeli regime

Please justify that claim.

You have still not put up a shred of evidence to support one of your smears against her.
You are just running with the pack of antisemites with their campaign of hate against her as a Jew.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Sep 16 - 05:09 AM

"No you have not Jim."
Yest I have and I am not going to respond to your accusations until you begin to answer some of mine - and apologise for accusing me of making pu the "Self hating Jews" statement
Smeeth attended the conference, as I sated - that for me, is enough to link her with the pro Israel campaign
She supported Netunyahu' racist slur of the Palestinian people - which you claim is not racist.
She is also an employee of a group whose job it is to attract the elite to supporting the Israeli regime - enough evidence for me, without her support for Netunyahu's "NOT" racism.
"You have nothing on Smeeth. "
Yes it could - the group who took the action is an internal Quango, answerable to nobody but themselves.
He was not even given the right to reply - that is not how the Labour party operates - as you well know
If he, or anybody, is guilty of Antisemitism, they should be kicked out on their arses, but it has to be proved that they are.
Labour has acted impeccably throughout this affair and has gone by the book
The Tories j=have yet to even acknowledge the demand for an enquiry into Islamophobia and have appointed a racist as foreign secretary.
I know where my vote would go for a principled and responsible party
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Sep 16 - 03:47 AM

Have done Keith

No you have not Jim.
You have nothing on Smeeth. If you did you would be happy to repeat it.
Just lying smears against someone attacked for being Jewish Jim.
For shame!

Wadsworth was suspended from the Labour Party. That could not happen unless the leadership, the NEC and Corbyn believed it justified.

Netanyahu. I linked to the passage you cut and pasted.
It is about demographic trends in Israel. Nothing racist in it.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Sep 16 - 01:14 PM

It is virtually impossible to find out who makes up the 'constitutional unit' other than it was set up by the Labour 'old guard', has vehemently opposed Corbyn from day one, has attempted to block his re-election and objects to new members being allowed to join.
It seems to have no connection to the mainstream Labour Partyand in no way represent their view.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Sep 16 - 12:57 PM

"Why not tell us Jim?"
Have done Keith
Why not respond to your accusation that I made up "Self-hating Jews" and while you're at it, you might as well add Netanyahu's "non racism" - or is this something else you are going to do a runner from?
Can add as many of these as you wish each time you ask, if that's what you like.
"but the Party did not"
The Labour Party have not been given the opportunity to decide on Wadsworth's behaviour, just has Wadsworth has not been given the opportunity to state his case.
"I've now been expelled from the Labour party. I've received a letter from this very shadowy unit called the constitutional unit and they have summarily expelled me without any opportunity to give my side, just based on media reports."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Sep 16 - 12:23 PM

She attended the conference and she made her position clear - you have what she said

You have not told us what she supposedly said or who claims to have heard her.
Why not tell us Jim?

Steve,
Netanyahu's remarks about the problem of Israeli Arabs is about as racist as it gets. Trust you not to see it.

I may not be the only one. Explain the racism, and what it has to do with Smeeth anyway.

Re Marc Wadsworth, you may believe his denials and protestations, but the Party did not. He was suspended.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Sep 16 - 05:44 AM

Cross posted ungrammatically with Jim there.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Sep 16 - 05:40 AM

If I wanted to distance myself I'd tell you out loud, twat. You do not get to read anything into the fact that I had yet to refer to her. Life's too short. Netanyahu's remarks about the problem of Israeli Arabs is about as racist as it gets. Trust you not to see it.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Sep 16 - 05:35 AM

Netanyahu's "not racism"

"Demgraphy" – a study of birth, deaths and disease

Netanyahu: Israel's Arabs Are the Real Demographic Threat
Israel's growing demographic problem is not because of Palestinians, but of Israeli Arabs, Finance Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said yesterday.
Gideon Alon and Aluf Benn Dec 18, 2003 12:00 AM
Israel's growing demographic problem is not because of Palestinians, but of Israeli Arabs, Finance Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said yesterday.
Speaking at the Herzliya Conference on security, Netanyahu said Israel had already freed itself from control of almost all Palestinian Arabs. He said he could not foresee a future in which "any sane Israeli" could try to make Palestinians either Israeli citizens or "enslaved subjects." The Palestinians would under all circumstances rule themselves and administer their own affairs, he said.
"If there is a demographic problem, and there is, it is with the Israeli Arabs who will remain Israeli citizens," he said. The Declaration of Independence said Israel should be a Jewish and democratic state, but to ensure the Jewish character was not engulfed by demography, it was necessary to ensure a Jewish majority, he said.
If Israel's Arabs become well integrated and reach 35-40 percent of the population, there will no longer be a Jewish state but a bi-national one, he said. If Arabs remain at 20 percent but relations are tense and violent, this will also harm the state's democratic fabric. "Therefore a policy is needed that will balance the two."
The economy is the single most important factor that will lead to Jews immigrating to Israel, he said. "I go mad when I see that because of low taxation in Moscow, there is now a capital flow there. If we want Jews to come here, we need a flourishing and dynamic economy. If we want Israeli Arabs to integrate, we need a flourishing and dynamic economy."
He said it was necessary to improve education standards, especially for Arab citizens. Netanyahu said that the "separation fence" would also help to prevent a "demographic spillover" of Palestinians from the territories.
Reactions to the speech were not slow in coming from Arab Knesset members and others. "Netnayahu's demographic time bomb is a stink bomb and a racist one," said Ahmed Tibi (Hadash). "The day is not far off when Netnayahu and his followers will set up roadblocks at the entrance to Arab villages to tie Arab women's tubes and spray them with anti-spermicide."
Azmi Bishara, of Balad (National Democratic Alliance) said: "Describing the original residents of this land as a demographic problem would be considered racism in any normal, or even abnormal, country."
Makhoul Issam Makhoul (Hadash) said: "A leader who considers 20 percent of the population of Israel to be a demographic threat and treats them as an existential problem, is himself a racist threat to democracy, sanity, and the rule of law - and he should be disposed of immediately for the good of both peoples."
Talab a-Sana (United Arab List) said: "How would Netanyahu react if someone in the West or the U.S. said that the reproduction rate of Haredi Jews was a demographic problem? Netnayahu has double standards."
Labor whip Dalia Itzik described Netanyahu as "a serial pyromaniac." She said: "He has already lit the flames between rich and poor, and now he is trying to do the same between Jews and Arabs."
Yossi Sarid, MK (Meretz), said: "It is amazing to see how great leaders can instantly be revealed as small racists. The Palestinian problem has not yet been solved in the territories and they are already trying to create another problem with Israeli Arabs... A thousand firemen will not be enough to put out the flames one frivolous man set alight."
Haaretz
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Sep 16 - 04:57 AM

"Heard by who saying exactly what Jim?"
Finished Keith
She attended the conference and she made her position clear - you have what she said
You want to pursue it find someone else - you are really not worth spending time on any more for the reasons I have stated.
Netanyahu dismissed the entire Palestinian people with one sentence - that, for me, is racism - obviously not for you.
My point in underlining Smeeth's position is to call into question her accusations of Antisemitism - there are many others you have supported who have done and said far worse.
We all realise that Netanyahu is one of your lily-whites, militaristic thug that he is.
I certainly have no intention of entering into an argument with you on the merits of a racist, war criminal - my stomach isn't up to another bout of your atrocity denying this morning.
You refuse to respond to your own accusations when thet are proved totally false, yet, should one of your heroes be maligned, you move heaven and earth to defend them.
Do you a deal - respond to your accusations that I made up "Self-Hating Jews" and I may, just may, tell you where to find Smeeth's statement.
Otherwise, go away - I'm no longer interested in wasting time proving wrong somebody who just walks away from their mistakes and dishonesty.
You demand attention from people you treat with contempt - not acceptable on a publicdebating forum.
Expect to be treated the way you treat others
Your behaviour has long exceeded the bounds of common decency.
Ever your "Muppet" friend
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Sep 16 - 04:23 AM

Jim,
Smeeth attended the Hertzliva Conference and was heard speaking in support of Benjamin Netanyahu's, "Palestinian citizens of Israel were a "demographic threat" claim.

Heard by who saying exactly what Jim?

Here is what Netanyahu actually said. There is no racism in it.
http://www.haaretz.com/netanyahu-israel-s-arabs-are-the-real-demographic-threat-1.109045

Steve, if you want to distance yourself from Jim's accusations, please do. So far you have shown nothing but support for his shit.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 03:55 PM

"made-up shit."
Don't mind trying out new dishes, but that's taking it a bit far
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 03:44 PM

It was delicious. I'd post the recipe but Keith would say it was made-up shit.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 01:38 PM

"I dashed that off. I have to make a risotto from scratch."
Try making it from rice and whatever - scatch tends not to be very tasty - though I suppose it depends which bit you're scratching!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 01:28 PM

"If any of that shit is true, produce something "
Have you looked on the site that has all those "experts" who said that "implant" thing about Pakistani males?
Or maybe the one where all those "many" NC members said they had serious concerns about Antisemitism in the Labour Party.
Or perhaps the one that gives numbers of Antisemites, or describes how that Antisemitism manifests itself.
Or maybe it's on the one which describes how the Irish hate Britain.
It could be on any of these - or the many, many more from which you gained your information and then refused to substantiate it.
I get a bit fed up with your challenges, and then, when it's produced, you walk away from it.
Not too long ago you accused me of "inventing" the Israeli "Self-hating Jew" accusation aimed at all Jews who opposed their policies.
I gave it to you and asked for an apology - you ignored all requests and refused even to acknowledge it.
Why on earth should I bother re-posting something you have already been given, only for you to ignore it?
Life really is too short to bother with people like you.
Tell you what - Keith - you start responding to the things we put up and acknowledge them, and stop calling us "liars" and of "making up" facts, and maybe, just maybe, you will be taken seriously.
Up till then, as far as I'm concerned, I will continue putting up information to back my beliefs
You want to challenge it - fine - you want to ignore it - fine.
But don't you dare demand something that has been put up, so you can just walk away from it.
A clue, if you like
Smeeth attended the Hertzliva Conference and was heard speaking in support of Benjamin Netanyahu's, "Palestinian citizens of Israel were a "demographic threat" claim.
She later said she didn't recall doing so.
That is from memory from all the links I have put up on the matter; it is the last concession you'll get from me.
You start responding to questions and I will - I'm sure the rest of us "Muppets" and "Ignoramuses" will do the same.
A debate forum is a two-way street.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 01:18 PM

I dashed that off. I have to make a risotto from scratch.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 01:15 PM

I dashed that off. I have a risotto to make from scratch.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 12:55 PM

Ruth Smeeth is indeed an avid supporter of the Israeli regime and campaigns within an official body to get the boycott of Israeli goods lifted. I think she's severely deluded but she's entitled to her opinion. The old boy who left her floods of tears at the launch of the Chakrabarti report DID NOT KNOW THAT SHE WAS A JEW. His criticism as expressed and widely reported was absolutely nothing like a "traditional antisemitic slur." She accused him of being in Momentum (big deal anyway), which he denied. It could have been made about anyone in cahoots with the right-wing press, Jew or non-Jew. Plenty of non-Jews get involved in conspiracy theories, and HE DID NOT KNOW THAT SHE WAS A JEW. As a matter of fact he's been a prominent campIgner against racism and discrimination for decades and has condemned antisemitism. The abuse she has received online is vile. So, Keith, what should Jeremy do about it? Demand the identities of all 25000 abusers from their ISPs? Do you think they'd tell him? How do you know how many of them are really Labour members, or are you indulging in guesswork? Your Brexit friends' racist and xenophobic comments during the referendum campaign almost certainly provoked a significant increase in race attacks. Bit of a parallel there, I'd say. What are you going to do about Farage, Gove and Johnson then, Keith?   Indulge in silence and denial?

And one more thing, Keith. Twice now you have criticised "you two" for joining in attacks on her and smearing her. Well this post contains my very first mention of her, or indeed any allusion to her at all. You are a thoroughly dishonest man whose words should never be trusted.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 11:39 AM

Smeeth has been subject to vile antisemitic abuse and intimidation.
You two joined in the attacks on her with accusations that you refuse to substantiate.

"Ms Smeeth is also a pro-Israeli activist with links to the American Security Services."
"She has been described as an anti-Palestinian racist."
"Both Ms Smeeth and Michael Foster are Pro-Israeli activists defending the war crimes of a terrorist State ."

If any of that shit is true, produce something to back it up, and not just from Electronic Intifada!!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 09:42 AM

So, Booboo, you're telling us to cherrypick Haaretz in order to spot the cherrypickers. You'd be bloody hilarious if you weren't so pathetic.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 09:04 AM

By the way -Algemeiner is an extremist journal which has instigated witch-hunts against critics of Israeli policy
Quite a lot of people know that, as Michael Caine once nearly said
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 08:53 AM

While Haaretz does have some quality journalism it also has an editorial policy to give voice to a wide spectrum of opinion even when that opinion reaches the extremist nut job end of the spectrum. This is the tree which Israel haters cherry pick from and one of the reasons that it has an insignificant readership among average Israelis. The target audience for the English version is not the same as that for the Hebrew one and that is reflected in how, very often, facts are presented in ways that distort the truth of the story they are telling. See: Haaretz, Lost in Translation

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 08:24 AM

Heheh. Bobad makes scraping the bottoms of barrels look like preparing a gourmet dinner. 😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 08:15 AM

"Jeffrey Goldberg of The Atlantic on why he will stop reading Haaretz:"
So those running Haaretz are all "Self-hating Jews"?
That "Neo-conservative", Jeffry Goldberg doesn't like it is confirmation that' it's worth reading, as far as I'm concerned.
JEFFREY GOLDBERG
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 08:00 AM

Another zinger......recognize yourselves?

It's not just neo-Nazis. A wide variety of Israel-haters tokenize u [Haaretz] as the Jews in their corner.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 07:37 AM

Jeffrey Goldberg of The Atlantic on why he will stop reading Haaretz:

Look, when neo-Nazis are e-mailing me links to Haaretz op-eds declaring Israel to be evil, I'm going to take a break, sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 06:28 AM

He resorts to it when things aren't going his way, Jim. He tries it on me all the time. When he's not telling us to stick to discussing the Labour Party, he's rattling on about Israel himself all the time. He's busted. A desperado.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 06:16 AM

"If you want the full rebuttal, reopen or start another Israel thread.
This is about UK Labour Party"
If you don't want a debate on Israel's obvious links to Israel's part in attacks on the Labour Party - start another thread and clearly mark it ALL ADVERSE COMMENTS ON ISRAELI TERRORISM ARE STRICTLY FORBIDDEN
What have you been told - over and over again - about attempting to manipulate these discussions?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 06:07 AM

"None has been produced by your side."
None that you wwish to respond to, you mean
You have it - if it is not true, prove it isn't
I think everybody here must be pretty bored with your constant denials.
"You say she did, so produce it."
It has been produced - I gave up blowing noses and wiping bums decades ago.
How about actually producing some real evidence for your persistent attacks on the Labourt Party - so far, you have produced only accusations from contenders for Corbyn's position and smears Pro-Israeli activists intent on stopping the 'Boycott Israel' campaign.
You demand something that has already been presented, yet you refuse to produce anything to back up your long-running accusations against the Labour party other than crude, Pro-Israeli propaganda.
No deal Keith
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 05:41 AM

It was facts, not propaganda, and it did not come from Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 05:10 AM

Jim,
"And you two take sides against her, with lies and smears."
Youve had the information on thet one too -

None has been produced by your side.

If you have evidnece that what she is accused of is not true - PROVE IT

If she did not say such things, there can be no evidence.
You say she did, so produce it.

Steve,
You've had the truth about what really happens in Israel in Jim's link, and it can all be corroborated.

This is about Smeeth being subject to an antisemitic attack.
How does any of that propaganda from Jim about Israel relate to that?

Jim,,
Any moron can just repeat "they didn't do it"

If you want the full rebuttal, reopen or start another Israel thread.
This is about UK Labour Party

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 04:29 AM

!Same old extremist opinions from extremist sources posted by a mentally ill anti-Semite....."
Two of those "opinions" came from "Haaretz", the rest came from reputable people and organisations - all "mentally ill"!!!
Much easier to claim the world is mad rather than admit to your own inhumanity - let alone actually respond to the points made.
Official response to evictions
Haaretz
EQUALITY for the BEDOUINS
N.Y.Times
Racism is prevalent in Israel
Haaretz

Equality my arseum
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 03:10 AM

After that stupid remark you definitely lose!😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 03 Sep 16 - 06:15 PM

Same old extremist opinions from extremist sources posted by a mentally ill anti-Semite......ho, hum.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Sep 16 - 05:37 PM

I suppose it would be infra dig to tell booboo and Keith that "they lose..." 😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Sep 16 - 05:23 PM

He's not even good at this
Any moron can just repeat "they didn't do it"
you'd have thought such a dedicated fanatic should show a little more imagination
They don't make atrocity deniers like they used to
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Sep 16 - 04:08 PM

You're busted, Keith. You've had the truth about what really happens in Israel in Jim's link, and it can all be corroborated. You blindly support a stinking regime that routinely puts its own people in jeopardy, Jews and non-Jews alike. As we saw in the referendum, politicians find it easy to hoodwink their own people. That's what's happened for decades in Israel, with the disgraceful collusion of the US, among others. I support the nation of Israel, and I wish every Israeli citizen peace, security and prosperity. One fine day you may want to ditch your Islamophobic prejudices and come and join me.

And bobad, chime in by all means, but do realise that you are a total irrelevance, incapable of making a single valid point.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Sep 16 - 04:04 PM

"Can you produce anything to justify your suggestion that she was pro all those nasty things you listed?"
By the way - those "nasty things I listed" were a response to Bobad's claim of equality in Israel - nothing to do with your "witness" - if you can't bother reading what is posted, you really shouldn't be here.
They are all responses to the myth of "equality" in Israel - two of them come from the Israeli press.
I soppose they are all "lies and smears" - but my guess is that you will ignore them and go on saying Israel never did nuffin'
That seems to be what you are
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Sep 16 - 03:54 PM

"Jim, we agree there is nothing wrong with being "pro-Israel" as you accused Smeeth."
Repetition again Keith - you've had my response - if you can't live with it, feel free not to.
"And you two take sides against her, with lies and smears."
Youve had the information on thet one too - if you can't live with ir, don't.
Same old, same old Keith Isreal never dun nuffin to nobody and everything her friends did is "all lises and smears
Sighhhhhhhh
If you have evidnece that what she is accused of is not true - PROVE IT
The same goes for all your "witbnsesses" - virtually all linked directly to Israeli propaganda and those who aren't are fighting to bring Corbyn down
You really have blown it here
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Sep 16 - 01:58 PM

Same old Professor Spew. Tiresome.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Sep 16 - 01:26 PM

Jim, we agree there is nothing wrong with being "pro-Israel" as you accused Smeeth.

Can you produce anything to justify your suggestion that she was pro all those nasty things you listed?
No.
Can you justify your attempt to smear her as having made, "Islamophobic racist rantings against the Palestinian people?"
No.
Just lies and smears because she dared to object to her experience of anti-semitic abuse from her supposed Labour Party comrades.

And you two take sides against her, with lies and smears.
For shame.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Sep 16 - 12:41 PM

"They won't read your last link, Jim."
Bobad has said he refuses to read anything we put up
Open minds eh?
I suppose Haaretz comes under "Self-hating Jews"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Sep 16 - 12:38 PM

blame everything on Hamas

Or space aliens. Anti-semitic ones, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Sep 16 - 12:12 PM

They won't read your last link, Jim. Their automatic denial buttons can't stand it. Or maybe they'll read it and blame everything on Hamas.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Sep 16 - 10:50 AM

"based on equality"
"In Israel, Instead of Equal Rights, No Equality at All
Netanyahu's 'nation-state' bill undermines the notion that Israel's Arab population is entitled to collective rights, not just individual ones.
read more:
Haaretz

Freedom of religion"
"Israel's claim to be a place that guarantees freedom of religion is questionable in light of its treatment of Muslims. The fact that the state of Israel doesn't hesitate in limiting Muslim worshipers from entering their holiest place in the country cannot be viewed as a tolerant or democratic action. If Israel is to keep calling itself a democracy, it should behave as one. Israel is failing its democratic values and claims when it comes to its treatment of the minorities."
+972

"Freedom of Speech"
"I better remember what I wrote in my newspaper just over six years ago, that "the degree of abuse and outright threats now being directed at anyone ... who dares to criticize Israel ... is fast reaching McCarthyite proportions.
The attempt to force the media to obey Israel's rules is ... international"."
Robert Fisk

"freedom of assembly"
"A good example of this is the Defense Minister's recent decision to outlaw the northern branch of the Islamic Movement, which is one of the most important political and social movements within the Arab minority. The Defense Minister decided to use the emergency regulations, which have remained intact since the colonial British mandate, in order to severely violate the freedom of expression and freedom of assembly of a major part of the Arab community in Israel.
Haaretz 2016

"Equality"
Ten years after report on October 2000 riots, in which 13 were killed, the state has failed to implement antidiscrimination measures that would reestablish just relations between Jews and Arabs in Israel.
Haaretz

"Minority Rights"
"Arab citizens of Israel face entrenched discrimination in all fields of life. In recent years, the prevalent attitude of hostility and mistrust towards Arab citizens has become more pronounced, with large sections of the Israeli public viewing the Arab minority as both a fifth column and a demographic threat. There are glaring socioeconomic differences between Jewish and Arab population groups, particularly with regard to land, urban planning, housing, infrastructure, economic development, and education. Over half of the poor families in Israel are Arab families, and Arab municipalities constitute the poorest municipalities within Israel."
Association for Civil Rights in Israel

RACIAL PREJUDICE

APARTHEID in ISRAEL

Pull the other on Bobad
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Sep 16 - 09:39 AM

All my points are capable of being confirmed by neutral sources which have been trotted out ad nauseam here, bobad. Now off you go to find get more pro-Israeli regime sources to "prove" me wrong! 😂

And do take as much time as you like. You won't be missed.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Sep 16 - 09:30 AM

Same old nonsensical Boo Spew. Tedious.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 03 Sep 16 - 09:12 AM

an outfit that treats its Arab citizens as third-class, runs Gaza as a huge prison, steals the most desirable territory in order to make exclusively-Jewish settlements, regards the slaughter of children and refugees as unfortunate necessities and puts its own citizens in harm's way.

All, of course condemnable lies spouted by the usual Jew haters in order to demonize a country, the only country in the Middle East whose basic law is based on equality, freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, has arabic as an official language and has Arabs up to supreme court judges, soliders in the IDF, members of parliament including the ruling coalition, laws protecting LGBT, women's rights and the rights of minorities etc.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Sep 16 - 08:58 AM

"I do not believe you Jim."
To be quite honest Keith, I couldn't give two shits what you believe, but her statement (which she claims not to recall making), is included in the links you have been given.
Lets face it Keith - when and if you find it, you'll claim that she only said what she said because some "expert" or "historian" told her it was true.
"There is nothing wrong with being pro-Israel."
Didn't claim there was , but to be pro-Israeli regime atrocities and propaganda is a different matter- I'm totally with Steve on this.
She is an active part of the present campaign to deflect criticism from those atrocities and try to halt the 'Boycott Israel' campaign, which has now spread to attacking the Labour Party.
"The accusations of antisemitism are genuine"
Are they - did she tell you that - how do you know?
You and your mates have produced a list of people such as these, claiming them to be "large numbers of the Labour Party Executive, at one stage.
All have fallen by the wayside as part of this campaign, which you dismissed as my "conspiracy theory"
The more of them you produce and the more vehemently you support them, as you have supported every single act of right-wing state aggression, criminality and human rights abuses, the more likely they become.
That appears to be the sole aim of your sad existence.
Go and sell your shoddy goods to someone who will buy them - you've long blown your cover here.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Sep 16 - 08:28 AM

There is absolutely nothing wrong with being pro-Israel. I'm pro-Israel myself and I've said so here many times. There is plenty wrong with being pro-Israeli regime, an outfit that treats its Arab citizens as third-class, runs Gaza as a huge prison, steals the most desirable territory in order to make exclusively-Jewish settlements, regards the slaughter of children and refugees as unfortunate necessities and puts its own citizens in harm's way.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Sep 16 - 07:51 AM

As I have said, her affiliation with Israel in no way justifies threats to her, but it does put into context her accusations of antisemitism.

No it does not.
The accusations of antisemitism are genuine and as a Jew she feels them personally.

Her connection with the Pro-Israel campaign

There is nothing wrong with being pro-Israel.

her Islamophobic racist rantings against the Palestinian people

I do not believe you Jim.
Give some examples.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Sep 16 - 05:12 AM

"What activity makes her experience of antisemitism and abuse irrelevant?"
Her connection wuith the Pro-Israel campaign and her Islamophobic racist rantings against the Palestinian people (which she never denied, but said she didn't recall making) are enough to put her accusations into perspective.
She is part of the BICOM campaign making her connection with Israel a political rather than a family one.
As I have said, her affiliation with Israel in no way justifies threats to her, but it does put into context her accusations of antisemitism.
Her racist attitude towards the Palestinian people, underlines that context
A REMINDER of the fact that people like Smeeth are not the only ones to be in danger from nut-cases.
Principled ones like Corbyn are equally in the firing line from people who espouse your cause.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Sep 16 - 04:18 AM

Jim,
Ms Smeeth is also a pro-Israeli activist

Really? What activity makes her experience of antisemitism and abuse irrelevant?
Like many long serving members she is a Friend of Israel. So what? She has family there and knows like all thinking informed people that your hate filled propaganda is lies.

with links to the American Security Services.

Really? What links? Do tell us Jim where you get this shit from.

She has been described as an anti-Palestinian racist".

Really? By who?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Sep 16 - 04:03 AM

"A British Jewish Labour MP said Friday that the leader of her party must do more to tackle anti-Semitism within its ranks, a day after she was assigned special police protection due to a sinister death threat."
Wake up Bobad - that's been covered
See Ruth Smeeth's records - linked above.
The Anti terrorist squad are dealing with it as the act of a nut-case - not an example of Labour Party Antiseitism.
Both Ms Smeeth and Michael Foster are Pro-Israeli activists defending the war crimes of a terrorist State - linking this anti-Corbyn campaign to Israel's attempts to offset the Israeli goods boycott
Foster has shown himself to be a foul-mouthed bullying thug not adverse to publicly shouting down female opponents using obscene language to do so.
I can see why you admire him, but at least he does what he does using his own name, and not hiding behind a pseudonym form th safety of distance - as some people do
Takes all sorts!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 10:36 PM

A British Jewish Labour MP said Friday that the leader of her party must do more to tackle anti-Semitism within its ranks, a day after she was assigned special police protection due to a sinister death threat.

UK counter-terrorism police have launched an investigation into the supporter of Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn who threatened to hang lawmaker Ruth Smeeth.

According to The Sun newspaper, which said Thursday it has seen the Facebook message the unnamed man left for the parliamentarian, the threat concludes with the sentence: "Ruth Smeeth is British and from my perspective since treason is still a capital offence in Britain, the gallows would be a fine and fitting place for this Dyke piece of Yid s*** to swing from."

Smeeth said Friday that she received more than 20,000 abusive messages from Corbyn supporters in just 12 hours, after she criticized him for not doing enough to fight anti-Semitism.

"It's vile, it's disgusting and it's done in the name of the leader of the Labour party, which makes it even worse," the MP told the BBC.

TOI

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 07:38 PM

Same old idiotic Boo Spew.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 06:48 PM

Same old idiotic Boo Spew.

Squawk!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 06:38 PM

Same old idiotic Boo Spew.

Move along, nothing to see here....

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 06:30 PM

MM

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 06:29 PM

Do try for a minute not to be such a confounded idiot, bobad.

Squawk!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 06:01 PM

Do try for a minute not to be such a confounded idiot, bobad.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 05:52 PM

I can see why Michael Foster elicits paroxysms of loathing from the likes of you as he has you and your cadre of regressive leftists described to a tee:

Corbynism: A regressive, discredited creed dressed in 'progressive' clothes.

It is a cadre of the old far left politicians, nearly all in their 60's, who have simply dressed up the old as new. Knowing the value of the Labour brand, they are attempting to steal it from a generation of those who have served Labour and its ideals for 30 years, redressing their old offer as a new form of acceptable progressive socialism, trying to hoodwink the British public into thinking that this is the way to establish an egalitarian post-Brexit Britain.

This ultimately is not about Labour, it is not about Corbyn's anti-Israel stance: it is about the shape of British society, for theirs is the politics of absolutism.

What binds them is their political enemy. Not, of course, the governing right-wing Conservatives, who have overseen a decline in living standards for working-class people not seen for a century. The "enemy" here is the majority center-right of the Labour Party, despised as "Blairites", supposedly wedded to crony capitalism, imperialism and war.

The crime that British Jews like myself have committed is that they were some of the major funders of the Labour Party under Tony Blair. So I become a metaphysical threat to their political nirvana, a wealthy, conspiring, controller of capital with imperialist (Israel/Palestine) intentions. History tells me I have heard that before. In Britain, the Jewish community watches in wonderment and with some reasoned trepidation.

Since the 1930's, the British Left has been wary of Jews in government, business and banking; this emerges from what they see as a 'witches cauldron' of capital, wealth and the United States (whom they loath), and support for Israel. Corbyn's pro-Palestinian stance has so emboldened the worst elements on the far Left that, for the first time in my lifetime, Labour is seen as the party of the anti-Semite. Many emails to my political account now begin with the salutation: "Jewish Racist Scum".

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 05:37 PM

He is an extremist right winger

According to those like you anyone who is not a Jew hating, Islamist terrorist apologist is a right wing extremist. For your information (not that it will do any good to an entrenched ideologue such as yourself) he self describes as a centre-leftist and a is major financial contributor to the Labour party.

He is a 'Friends of Israel' activist.

Gawd, to the likes of you and your "friends of Hamas and Hezbollah" party that must be cause of extreme agitation, imagine that, someone actually advocating for those filthy Jews.....der Fuhrer must be spinning in his grave.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 12:57 PM

many others are of a different opinion.

Many others deny the Holocaust, Bubo.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 12:08 PM

"Michael Foster is a millionaire showbiz agent who, as Managing Director of Content at Carlton Communications from September 1999 to February 2001, worked alongside David Cameron, the media company's Director of Corporate Affairs.[1]"
He is an extremist right winger who openly declared his hatred for Corbyn and describes him as a Nazi
He is a 'Friends of Israel' activist.
"In April 2016, Michael Foster joined the commercially-controlled media smear campaign against Jeremy Corbyn in a Daily Mail article headlined "Ignorant, Godless, Hateful - Corbyn's contempt for Jews is a disgrace":"
MICHAEL FOSTER
The death threats to Ruth Smeeth, according to Counter-terrorism police, have been made by "a fanatic who has threatened to hang a Jewish female Labour MP from the gallows."
Ms Smeeth is also a pro-Israeli activist with links to the American Security Services.
She has been described as an anti-Palestinian racist".
RUTH SMEETH and the ISRAELI LOBBY
Earlier complaints she has made about antisemitism have been investigated and found to be false.
None of this, of course, justifies her being threatened BY A FANATIC ACCORDING TO THE ANTI-TERRORIST SQUAD but it has nothing to do with antisemitism in the Labour Party
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 10:22 AM

Ah, the joys of witness. St Bernadette, Fatima, Knock...😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 09:49 AM

Hmm.........media conspiracy....vile conspiracy theories about Jewish people......sounds like he's describing some of the posters on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 09:42 AM

Guardian yesterday,

". Smeeth told the Guardian: "I refuse to be intimidated or scared by anyone who resorts to this appalling racist and threatening abuse and they alone are responsible for their actions. But let's be clear: as leader of the official opposition and the head of my party, Jeremy Corbyn has a responsibility to lead and that means more then telling MPs to ignore abuse.

"He needs to name and shame his supporters who are perpetuating this hate and make it clear they are not welcome in our party if they have such abhorrent views."

In June the MP walked out of a press conference for the launch of an independent review into antisemitism in the Labour party that was hosted by Corbyn and its author Shami Chakrabarti. Smeeth had been accused by a Corbyn supporter of colluding with the Daily Telegraph in a row over leaflets criticising MPs opposed to his continued leadership of the party.

The MP said later: "I was verbally attacked by a Momentum activist and Jeremy Corbyn supporter who used traditional antisemitic slurs to attack me for being part of a 'media conspiracy'. It is beyond belief that someone could come to the launch of a report on antisemitism in the Labour party and espouse such vile conspiracy theories about Jewish people, which were ironically highlighted as such in Ms Chakrabarti's report, while the leader of my own party stood by and did absolutely nothing."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 08:13 AM

'The Labour leader wears a kind face in public while using authoritarian means and his Momentum bullyboys to complete the far left's hold on Labour. And Corbynistas' real enemy target? British Jews like me,' Michael Foster writes.

Jeremy Corbyn Is a Bully, Bad for Democracy, for Britain and for British Jews

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 08:11 AM

The Huffington post describes Erdogan as "an elected dictator."
That is not "uninformed" or "a lie" but a view widely held by people who know a lot more about it that you two.

The Guardian,
"The attack on the judiciary is especially worrying in the light of Recep Tayyip Erdoğan's contempt for human rights and the rule of law."
That is a description of a dictator.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 07:46 AM

Heheh. That's right, Jim.

Neither the Guardian nor the Huffington Post has declared, unlike bobad's source, that Turkey is a dictatorship. Authoritarian and centralised, definitely. Both express concern, just like me and Jim. But Turkey has elections and a parliament. Come back and tell me that Turkey is a dictatorship when they are abolished. In the meantime, stop trying to bend the truth to suit your agenda. Just for once, acknowledge a mistake and stop being so pig-headed.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 07:02 AM

"As the country slides into a dictatorship" being the operative phrase.
Turkey has largely avoided full dictatorship because of its desire to be part of the E.U.
It certainly is a nation with extremist tendencies verging on Fascism; whether it will attain that accolade remains to be seen.
Rather a turnaround here Keith.
It seems like only yesterday when you were putting forward Turkey as one of those "decent nations" who supported Israel with its silence.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 04:43 AM

Huffington Post Headline, July 20.
"Turkey's Elected Dictator"

"Even before the failed military coup, Turkey's President Erdogan governed like a dictator who had the last word on all state matters. The botched coup was nothing but, as he put it, "a gift from God" to purge what is left of Turkey's democracy and cleanse the army and judiciary in order to ensure the total subordination of all institutions to his whims.

For Erdogan, being elected was akin to being granted a license to trample and dismantle all democratic tenets to consolidate his powers and promote his Islamic agenda."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alon-benmeir/turkeys-elected-dictator_b_11093160.html

Speigel, July22,
"Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan is taking advantage of last week's failed coup to consolidate his power. As the country slides into a dictatorship, there is a lot at stake for the West. But the effects in Turkey itself promise to be far greater. By SPIEGEL Staff"
(The article you are reading originally appeared in German in issue 30/2016 (July 23rd, 2016) of DER SPIEGEL.)
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/coup-in-turkey-leads-to-erdogan-power-grab-a-1104261.html

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 04:28 AM


Let me state a bald fact to you, Keith. Turkey is not a dictatorship. Now if I were you I'd drop this. You really are making a prize twat of yourself.

I just quoted the Guardian Steve.
They must be your "prize twats."
That is certainly my impression of much that they print but I quote them out of deference to you and your friends.

Guardian, July 27.
"The Guardian view on Turkey: beware an elected dictatorship"

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Sep 16 - 08:31 PM

Not so. I've told you clearly about your source, Information you could've got for yourself, but you couldn't be arsed. The main thing here is that she betrayed her unreliability by calling Turkey a dictatorship, which it isn't. A basic error of that kind means that we can't trust anything she says. I understand from her description of her background where she's coming from. I'm very glad I didn't have to grow up in Iran. But none of that is an excuse for stating in an article the untruth that Turkey is a dictatorship.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 01 Sep 16 - 08:01 PM

your bigoted yet beloved source.

Right, everyone who holds an opinion that differs from yours is a bigot. You really are an arrogant SOB.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Sep 16 - 07:42 PM

"Widely believed" by who? Your conspiracy theory is months out of date, junked. As it stands, Turkey is still a parliamentary democracy. An over-centralised one for sure, as it has been for years. But that is not the same thing as a dictatorship. Now I know how dearly you want to hang on to every word of your bigoted yet beloved source. But, really, truth is fairly important. And the truth as things stand, as of this very day, is that Turkey is not a dictatorship. Nowhere near. Pick yourself up, dust yourself off and find something else to lie about, why don't you.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 01 Sep 16 - 07:32 PM

Your final sentence betrays the fact that Turkey is not a dictatorship.

The article was written in March of this year, the situation has changed dramatically since with Erdogan assuming dictatorial powers under a "state of emergency" diktat. It is widely believed that the coup attempt was staged on his orders so that he could give himself the new powers that were denied to him by the electorate. This is how dictators operate.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Sep 16 - 07:20 PM

You and Keith really are up shit creek without a paddle. I'm not bullying you. I'm advising both of you, for the good of your health, to acknowledge that your source was incorrect in calling Turkey a dictatorship. The whole world knows it. You don't have to like the Erdogan regime. Personally, I hate it. But the simple, obstinate, unassailable fact is that Turkey is not a dictatorship. Simple. I don't need Guardian articles telling me that it might become one. I know that already. But let's stick to dealing in facts here. Turkey is, simply put, not a dictatorship.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 01 Sep 16 - 07:18 PM

See projection, above, Bubo.

Squawk!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Sep 16 - 07:11 PM

Your final sentence betrays the fact that Turkey is not a dictatorship.


Now don't get me wrong. I don't like Erdogan. Not one little bit. But the fact is that he is not a dictator. I don't give a flying shite what your "source" says (that lackey of the Israeli regime), what Keith says or what you say. Turkey may well be run by a bunch of unpleasant people. With that I will not disagree. But Turkey is not a dictatorship. If and when Turkey ever becomes a dictatorship, I'll let you know that I agree. You see, you quoted a source that you, er, forgot to read closely enough. She included Turkey among her list of dictatorships. Now she doesn't like Islamic stuff much, as most of the rest of us don't like Islamic stuff (including me). She was directly affected by Islamic stuff in Iran. I suppose we should listen. But it seems to me that she is being taken advantage of by the Israeli regime. Look where your source was from. Hardly neutral. And she was entirely incorrect in stating that Turkey is a dictatorship. Two things from that. Because she made such a basic error, you wonder what else she says that you could rely on. Then there's you two berks, who, instead of acknowledging that she made a mistake, try to insist that she was right all along. Well the whole world knows that Turkey is not a dictatorship. Simple. Not a nice regime. Going that way in some regards, maybe. But NOT a dictatorship. Either you recognise plain facts or we know what kind of people you are. You decide.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Sep 16 - 07:10 PM

an arrogant, self-righteous bully

See projection, above, Bubo.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 01 Sep 16 - 06:55 PM

Turkey is not a dictatorship. Now if I were you I'd drop this.

That is your opinion only, many others are of a different opinion. You are coming off as an arrogant, self-righteous bully which is your usual MO. You drop it.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 01 Sep 16 - 06:47 PM

Sounds pretty much like what a dictator does.

Erdoğan is well on his way to becoming a dictator, if he isn't one already. Not long after his initial election, Erdoğan's agents embarked on a large and sinister campaign to destroy his political opponents, jailing hundreds—journalists, university rectors, military officers, aid workers—on trumped-up charges and fabricated evidence. (In 2012, I wrote about Erdoğan's campaign for the magazine.) Despite his excesses, Erdoğan remained popular as the Turkish economy rapidly grew. In 2014, having completed three terms as Prime Minister, he ran for President and won. Still, Turkish voters have refused to give him the blank check he desired, and last year turned down his effort to rewrite the Constitution to give himself vast new powers.

The New Yorker

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Sep 16 - 05:06 PM

Let me state a bald fact to you, Keith. Turkey is not a dictatorship. Now if I were you I'd drop this. You really are making a prize twat of yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Sep 16 - 03:49 PM

Steve,
She said Turkey was a dictatorship. It is not. At best she is uninformed. At worst she lied. Take your pick.

Guardian, July 27.
"The Guardian view on Turkey: beware an elected dictatorship"

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Sep 16 - 02:06 PM

all you have to do is paste this into your every post and you'll be repeating what you've been saying in your posts for years.

Take note, Bubo:


Projection (Psychological)

1) A self-defence mechanism characterised by a person attributing their own issues onto someone or something else as a form of delusion and denial.

2) A way to blame others for ones own negative thoughts by repressing them and then attributing them to someone else. Due to the sorrowful nature of delusion and denial it is very difficult for the target to be able to clarify the reality of the situation.

3) A way to transfer guilt for one's own thoughts, emotions and actions onto another as a way of not admitting your guilt to yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 01 Sep 16 - 10:06 AM

Kudos, Greg, for distilling your posting history into one succinct post - a squawk. Very clever of you as now all you have to do is paste this into your every post and you'll be repeating what you've been saying in your posts for years.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Sep 16 - 10:03 AM

She said Turkey was a dictatorship. It is not. At best she is uninformed. At worst she lied. Take your pick.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Sep 16 - 09:35 AM

Awwrk! Pieces of eight! Pieces of eight!!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 01 Sep 16 - 08:38 AM

Try quoting some Chomsky at us.

Plenty quotes by Chomsky as apologist for Pol Pot and downplaying the atrocities of the Khmer Rouge can be found in his books and magazine articles. It is interesting to note that just like our resident apologists for Islamist terrorist groups and murderous Islamic regimes he is fond of describing his detractors as "neo-Nazis and neo-Stalinists", seemingly totally unaware of the irony.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Sep 16 - 08:37 AM

Awwrk! Pieces of eight! Pieces of eight!!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Sep 16 - 05:30 AM

Steve,
She said Turkey is a dictatorship. It isn't. A lie which you are now defending.

I merely stated facts about Turkey.

Guardian,
"The Guardian view on Turkey: beware an elected dictatorship"

"Turkey is lurching towards such a state. The arrests of 6,000 people, and the sacking of 2,700 judges, are very bad signs coming from a regime which has already done its best to intimidate civil society through the harassment and persecution of journalists. A purge of the armed forces is inevitable in the wake of a failed military coup, but it was not judges who rose up against the elected government. The attack on the judiciary is especially worrying in the light of Recep Tayyip Erdoğan's contempt for human rights and the rule of law."
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/17/the-guardian-view-on-turkey-beware-an-elected-dictatorship

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Sep 16 - 05:13 AM

Steve,
There is no freedom of speech, free press or opposition parties in Gaza, and no elections.
When Hamas took over, rival politicians who did not flee in time were thrown off tall buildings.
That would discourage anyone from criticising Hamas in Gaza.

When I make an assertion or claim I can back it.
You run away when asked to back your ludicrous assertions and claims.
You claimed that pro-Israel lobbyists have a "cast iron grip" on US politics.
How do they exert that grip except their cause is a popular one, which you also denied!

What is wrong with the pro-Palestinian lobby, except that everyone knows they rely on lying propaganda?

Should a pro-Israel lobby not be allowed? Everyone else has one.
What is your point? What is your case?

You have also run away from responding to this point put to you,
"Returning to the subject of whither the Labour Party, your definition of antisemitism leaves you blind to the real examples of it we have discussed.
It is your denial of that antisemitism, recognised by everyone else, that has kept this thread alive months after it faded from the news.
You repeatedly claimed that the EUMC definitions were discredited, whereas it is yours that are shown to be invalid."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Aug 16 - 09:05 PM

Turn the record over, Keith. Everyone except you has left all that behind. She said Turkey is a dictatorship. It isn't. A lie which you are now defending. So what's new! 😂
"The people who live there dare not be critical.
That is certain death in Gaza."

Total rubbish. Prove it!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Aug 16 - 08:04 PM

Steve,

Cor, she knows more about real life in Gaza than the people who live there!

The people who live there dare not be critical.
That is certain death in Gaza.

And someone really ought to tell her that Turkey is not a dictatorship.

Not having a free and independent press or media, it is not a true democracy either.
Also, anyone who ever spoke out against the regime has been rounded up following the attempted coup.

Steve, you have made wild claims and assertions, and as usual fall silent when asked to substantiate.

How does the Israel lobby exert such influence?
What has it got that lobbyists for others, e.g. the Palestinians, have not got?
Nothing but a popular cause.

Returning to the subject of whither the Labour Party, your definition of antisemitism leaves you blind to the real examples of it we have discussed.
It is your denial of that antisemitism, recognised by everyone else, that has kept this thread alive months after it faded from the news.
You repeatedly claimed that the EUMC definitions were discredited, whereas it is yours that are invalid.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 Aug 16 - 07:27 PM

Steve, its kinda like his slander of Black Lives Matter - no facts need apply for Bubo. Spew is all.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Aug 16 - 05:57 PM

Your "sources" are a laugh a minute. Carefully chosen in order to confirm your personal bigotry. Try quoting some Chomsky at us. Go on, bobad, it's all right, honest - he's a Jew, after all! 😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Aug 16 - 05:52 PM

Ah, nothing like the bobad propaganda machine in full flow! It's all true, of course, just like it was all true when he was both bobad and the anonymous troll who told us he needed anonymity so that we'd address the issues and not attack the man. Wow, the sheer integrity of the man! 😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 31 Aug 16 - 05:50 PM

Wow, yet another neutral and objective bobad source.

Go ahead and dispute those facts and figures with your sources. I doubt if you will. It's just your usual; any source that disproves my ideology is biased, especially if the authors of that source are Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 31 Aug 16 - 05:41 PM

By 1947, Jewish holdings in "Palestine" amounted to about 463,000 acres. Approximately 45,000 of these acres were acquired from the Mandatory Government; 30,000 were bought from various churches and 387,500 were purchased from Arabs. Analyses of land purchases from 1880 to 1948 show that 73 percent of Jewish plots were purchased from large landowners, not poor fellahin.29 Those who sold land included the mayors of Gaza, Jerusalem and Jaffa. As'ad el­Shuqeiri, a Muslim religious scholar and father of PLO chairman Ahmed Shuqeiri, took Jewish money for his land. Even King Abdullah leased land to the Jews. In fact, many leaders of the Arab nationalist movement

ibid

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Aug 16 - 05:22 PM

Wow, yet another neutral and objective bobad source. You're a joke, mate. Actually, you're two jokes, as we all know. 😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 31 Aug 16 - 04:52 PM

Despite the growth in their population, the Arabs continued to assert they were being displaced. The truth is that from the beginning of World War I, part of "Palestine's" land was owned by absentee landlords who lived in Cairo, Damascus and Beirut. About 80 percent of the "Palestinian" Arabs were debt-ridden peasants, semi-nomads and Bedouins.18

Jews actually went out of their way to avoid purchasing land in areas where Arabs might be displaced. They sought land that was largely uncultivated, swampy, cheap and, most important, without tenants. In 1920, Labor Zionist leader David Ben-Gurion expressed his concern about the Arab fellahin, whom he viewed as "the most important asset of the native population." Ben-Gurion said "under no circumstances must we touch land belonging to fellahs or worked by them." He advocated helping liberate them from their oppressors. "Only if a fellah leaves his place of settlement," Ben-Gurion added, "should we offer to buy his land, at an appropriate price."19

It was only after the Jews had bought all of the available uncultivated land that they began to purchase cultivated land. Many Arabs were willing to sell because of the migration to coastal towns and because they needed money to invest in the citrus industry.20

MYTH: "Jews stole Arab land"

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 16 - 03:04 PM

"You mean just like in the 19th century westward expansion in the United States of America
No, I mean the land grabbing that stared with Israel's independence and has continued ever since
Fekin' eeejt
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 31 Aug 16 - 02:49 PM

"The Jewish people are not responsible for the land-grabbing or the massacres, or the murderous incursions.... the Israeli regime is."

More anti-Semitic tropes from the usual suspect. If it was written on paper the only good use for it would be to wipe your arse.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 31 Aug 16 - 02:45 PM

A TV event not to be missed especially by those who swallow the phony "Palestinian" narrative and outright lies perpetrated by the "Palestinian" propaganda machine.


Las Vegas, August 30 – A duo of prominent stage magicians known for their outspoken stances on political issues and for their vocal support of skepticism toward many widely-held beliefs have announced they will produce a once-off revival of their Emmy-nominated TV show arguing for skepticism of those notions, with the special episode focused on the disingenuous, distorted, and outright false claims behind the Palestinian national movement.

Penn Jillette and Raymond Teller, one of the most famous magic acts in history, issued a press release today to the effect that "Penn & Teller's 'Bulls**t!'" would come back for a special one-time, two-hour episode to examine the common misconceptions, myths, and falsehoods peddled by advocates for the Palestinian cause, aiming to demonstrate that support for such a cause keeps millions of people stateless and miserable, perpetuates violent conflict, discourages a peaceful resolution of Arab-Israeli differences, and draws precious international resources away from where they are actually needed.

"I have to say our biggest regret, in terms of the topics we took on in our show, was not devoting attention to the Palestinian cause," said Jillette, referring to the seven-year run on the Showtime cable channel that ended in 2010. "Teller and I shifted our emphasis when the run ended, but we've always had a nagging sense that we needed to go back and tackle this topic. It's a source of tremendous bulls**t, after all."

Specifically, Penn and Teller aim to shine a critical lens on the notion of Palestinian nationhood, the historicity of Palestinian claims to indigenous status, Palestinian denial of a Jewish connection to the Holy Land, the misleading application of terminology such as "occupation" and "genocide," and numerous other features of Palestinian advocacy. "We're not even going to spend a lot of time on the violence and intimidation that characterize so much of pro-Palestinian rhetoric, especially on college campuses, but that will get a mention, because it has to," explained Jillette, to nods from Teller. "Millions of people are walking around with this stupid image of Palestinians as these poor native victims of imperialism, but it's a load of bullsh**t, and the more it spreads, the farther the world gets from the possibility of resolving this conflict peacefully."

Whereas the original series episodes ran 28-30 minutes each, the special revival episode will run four times as long. "There's enough material to make it ten hours if we wanted, and we wouldn't cover the same ground at any point," noted Jillette. "But that would be overkill, so we're going to cap it at 2 hours."


Penn & Teller To Revive 'Bulls**t!' To Debunk Palestinian Claims

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Aug 16 - 11:31 AM

"The Jewish people are not responsible for the land-grabbing or the massacres, or the murderous incursions.... the Israeli regime is."

You mean just like in the 19th century westward expansion in the United States of America - "The American settlers were not responsible for the land-grabbing or the massacres, or the murderous incursions.... the American Government/regime was." Which of course is wrong, personal greed of the population and pressure of population prompted the expansion. The 1776 War of Independence was not fought over "Taxation" and "Representation" - they served as the convenient excuses - the war was fought to break the 1754 treaty that the British signed with the Native Nations that limited westward expansion - a treaty that the British honoured. The War of 1812 was another similar opportunistic land grab where at the end of hostilities the British honoured the terms of the treaty and the American Government did not, but nobody at the time could be bothered with objections - after 21 years of war Britain and Europe wanted peace.

When it comes to Palestine {That is the League of Nations Mandated Territory of 1923}, European Jews had been settling there since around 1847, there were also Jews who had been resident in the Territory for at least 800 years {Hebron was a largely Jewish city}. All land settled by the European arrivals was bought from the Ottoman rulers, who generally sold land that they thought was worthless, modern farming methods related to drainage and irrigation altered that and where land couldn't be farmed it was given over to industry. Most of the land was owned not by individuals but by the Ottoman administration - examination of maps shows this clearly - When the Mandate was established - what had been unassigned "government land" under the Ottomans became unassigned "government land" under the British Mandate Authorities. Throughout the period of the Mandate parcels of this land was sold off. The only recognised borders of Palestine are those of 1923, there are no officially recognised borders for Israel or any Two-State solution primarily because in 1947 the Arabs of Palestine refused the Two-State Solution offered by the UN. Under the terms of the 1923 Mandate anybody could settle anywhere in Palestine, only Arabs could settle in what was then called Transjordan. To settle all you required was the purchase price of the land.

The Arabs of Palestine basically found themselves in two camps, one backed by those who ruled Transjordan who wanted to take over the lot, a second group headed up by Yasser Arafat's Uncle, the self-styled Grand Mufti of Jerusalem wanted to expel the Jews, take over what they had built up and make it into his own fiefdom. He was responsible for the attacks made on the Jews of Palestine by the Arabs of Palestine from 1920 onwards.

Asked before and I will ask again: How many rockets/missiles have been fired from Gaza or the West Bank into Israel in the last month? (Think you'll find that the answer to that is NONE) Now tell me how many Israeli attacks have there been on Gaza or in the West Bank in the last month? (Think you'll find that the answer to that is also NONE) - Spot the correlation? Since May 1948 the Arabs of the region have been unable to - they still chose war over peace - and they still lose - The Israelis cannot be blamed for the intransigence of the Arabs of Palestine, or more correctly their leaders, who have deliberately kept the people they are supposed to be responsible for looking after in poverty and a state of hopelessness - charity cases to be presented to the international community on demand. Remember the Israelis took in more Jewish "refugees" than the Arabs took in Arab "refugees" big difference being that the Israelis allowed their refugees to integrate, the Arabs shut theirs up in Refugee Camps on land belonging to the self same refugees and used them as political pawns and a convenient income stream.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Aug 16 - 09:44 AM

Cor, she knows more about real life in Gaza than the people who live there! 😂😂😂 Unsupportable nonsense. And someone really ought to tell her that Turkey is not a dictatorship. Still, why would a hired lackey for the Israeli regime lets facts get in the way! 😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 31 Aug 16 - 08:42 AM

"The Western world must support Israel; the ONLY free and democratic country in the Middle East. The Western world must support groups that follow secular enlightenment values, and must openly condemn those leaders and groups that do not.

I support Israel and condemn her enemies; the enemies of humanity and freedom; the enemies such as Hamas, Fatah, Hezbollah, Islamic Republic of Iran, the dictatorship regimes of Syria and Turkey, The Arab League, including Saudi Arabia, Al Qaeda and ISIS. If we let Israel succumb to their forces, it will be a disaster for the rest of the western world.

I support Israel because it is a free and democratic state; a true Liberal state where 30% of its population is atheist, far more than the secular Ireland. In Israel you can freely change your religion or go to the ONLY nude beach in the Middle East without being harassed by police. Israelis had another successful Gay Pride Parade which took place in Tel Aviv in June and was voted BEST gay city in the world in 2011! I am sure some supporters of the Palestinian and Iranian regimes would like to tell the world when next gay pride parade under their sharia law will take place ?

That which comes out of Israel is kind, humanitarian, hopeful. This canary is a beacon of light and a breath of fresh air in an otherwise dark, suffocating, and terrorizing Middle East."

Shabnam Assadollahi: Why I support Israel!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 16 - 03:38 AM

"You really are going insane aren't you!"
I should read your own Islamophobic rants if I were you.
You are saying about Muslims exactly what the Nazis said about the Jews to give themselves an excuse to exterminate them - the only difference being the ethnicity of the victims.
You have no interest in the well-being of the Jewish People - you wouldn't have painted targets on them by equating them with Israeli State terrorism if you had.
Your support is for the policies of a regime that has been compared, by Jews and non Jews, with that of the Nazis - a policy of mass murder, of attempted ethnic cleansing, of land grabbing and mass destruction of homes, schools, hospitals..... and worst of all, a war against impoverished civilians on a massive scale.
That is not "Jewish" - not by the standards of the Jews I count among my friends.
You come onto this forum in your cowardly anonymity and accuse everyone who criticises the monotheistic policy of the Israeli regime of being "Antisemitic", yet your own attitude of blaming the Jews for the war crimes being committed by the sadistic crowd running Israel is as Antisemitic as it comes.
The Jewish people are not responsible for the land-grabbing or the massacres, or the murderous incursions.... the Israeli regime is.
If you can't recognise that describing opponents of extreme right wing policies of being either "Antisemites" or "Self-hating Jews" is evil and dangerous - you are a vicious, stupid man.
If you don't recognise that your massive rants against Muslims as a whole, against their culture, their religion, their way of life, is raw racist bigotry no different than that directed at the Jewish people - you are a very dangerous man.
Go read the hate-filled diatribes you hae trawled up from extremist sites, then compare them to the similar things that were being said about the Jewish People in 1930s Germany - there really is no difference, apart from the people they are aimed at - then it was The Jews, now it is the Muslims.
You really should be ashamed of yourself - particularly if you come from a Jewish background
When the Holocaust survivor family I knew in Manchester back in the 60s told me "Never again, not to anybody", you were exactly the type of person they had in mind.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Aug 16 - 03:38 AM

Steve, you have made wild claims and assertions, and as usual fall silent when asked to substantiate.

How does the Israel lobby exert such influence?
What has it got that lobbyists for others, e.g. the Palestinians, have not got?
Nothing but a popular cause.

Now, your definition of antisemitism leaves you blind to the real examples of it we have discussed.
It is your denial of that antisemitism, recognised by everyone else, that has kept this thread alive months after it faded from the news.
You repeatedly claimed that the EUMC definitions were discredited, whereas it is yours that are invalid.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 30 Aug 16 - 09:59 PM

African American leaders who represent over 9 million people have rejected the anti-Israel stance of the Movement for Black Lives, which supports the BDS Movement while accusing Israel of being an apartheid state and committing genocide against the Palestinian people.

JOL

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Aug 16 - 08:12 PM

Jaysus, Greg, this thread is beyond tedious. Two clueless bigots, both yesterday's men (are they actually men??), getting more and more desperate. Ask yourself whether they're worth it. Are we mad or what! 😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Aug 16 - 07:13 PM

Bubo, you really ARE two years old! You think that saying things over and over makes them true! Still no facts presented, just your own plus Pruden's bullshit.

True to form. And now I'm done with you,asshole.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 30 Aug 16 - 05:18 PM

The Black Rights Movement is glaringly anti-Semitic, take your blinders off.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Aug 16 - 10:09 AM

Bubo, your boy Pruden is a disgusting piece of work. His opinion piece cites no facts, no evidence and is a smear on Black Lives Matter - just the sort of tactics you revel in.

From the article you reference (emphasis mine):

Black Lives Matter, in protesting the shooting of young black men by police (and in the case of one or two of the young black men, they were asking for it)

I don't know which of you is the larger sack of crap.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 30 Aug 16 - 09:19 AM

The Black Rights Movement is glaringly anti-Semitic, take your blinders off.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Aug 16 - 08:52 AM

Bubo, attempting to label the Black Lives Matter movement with antisemitism is even more disgusting that your usual vomit.

Wesley Pruden is a neo-Confederate racist, and his spew has consistently anti-Black since he first signed on with Sun Myung Moon.

Not surprising that you would have the same twisted view that he does.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 30 Aug 16 - 08:34 AM

Islamophobic rantings (particularly Bobad's. on the other Labour thread)

You really are going insane aren't you!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 30 Aug 16 - 08:27 AM

"Between 1939 and 1945," writes Joseph Telushkin in the Tablet, an online magazine, "one-third of the Jewish people in the world were murdered. That was genocide. And since Israel took control of the West Bank and Gaza in 1967 [as a result of a] war of self-defense, the Arab population in these two areas has gone from just over a million to 4 million. That is not genocide. It's a population explosion."

Facts are stubborn and persistent, but so are those who deny, manipulate and abuse them. Black Lives Matter, in protesting the shooting of young black men by police (and in the case of one or two of the young black men, they were asking for it) was a positive thing, but the movement now is trying to turn the rage against injustice to destructive rage against Israel. It's an old phenomenon. Blame the Jews: They're rich (most of them own department stores) and live the life of Riley, so why not?

Until now the Jew-baiters tried to camouflage their game, being careful to say they weren't talking about the Jews, just the Zionists, the Jews who wanted to build and protect a Jewish homeland. When a black student at Harvard tried this line on Martin Luther King, he was having none of it. "When people criticize Zionists," he told him, "they mean Jews. You're talking anti-Semitism."

Black Lives Matter and the endless war against the Jews

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Aug 16 - 04:30 AM

"How does the Israel lobby exert such influence?"
Keith - you've told us six times on this thread that "This is not about Israel"
Unless it suits you, it seems
Personally, as a non Christian, Jew or Muslim - I find Keith's and Bobad's Islamophobic rantings (particularly Bobad's. on the other Labour thread), every bit as hate-filled as anything the Nazis ever managed to come up with.
It is extreme Anti-humanity directed at Muslims rather than Jews and is just as lethal to those it is aimed at.
Israel is gradually arriving at the Nazi figures reached by the Holocaust, though it is taking longer to get there.
A curse on all hate-filled religious bigotry, no matter what denomination is used as an excuse.
Want thos facts about chemical warfare against the gazans and Bedoiuins again Keith
Plenty more where they came from.
Scumbags all
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Aug 16 - 04:11 AM

Steve,
. Quite simply, in the US the shrewd politician does not brief against Israel unless he wants to lose his influence at best or his job at worst.

How does the Israel lobby exert such influence?
What has it got that lobbyists for others, e.g. the Palestinians, have not got?
Nothing but a popular cause.

Now, your definition of antisemitism leaves you blind to the real examples of it we have discussed.
It is your denial of that antisemitism, recognised by everyone else, that has kept this thread alive months after it faded from the news.
You repeatedly claimed that the EUMC definitions were discredited, whereas it is yours that are invalid.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Aug 16 - 09:40 PM

Hear, Hear!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Aug 16 - 06:59 PM

I said nothing about AIPAC worshippers or a Jewish mafia. Do your homework. AIPAC is the main player in the US pro-Israel lobby. AIPAC contains many members who are not Jews. I call it the pro-Israel lobby because it is pro the Israeli regime. I do not call it the Jewish lobby and never have, and if you look hard enough you will find posts of mine on this board that admonish people for using that term. That is not because I'm avoiding anything. It is because pro-Israel lobby is an accurate term, whereas Jewish lobby is wide of the mark. It implies support of an ethnic group by fellow members of that group, which is incorrect on both counts. It is a political lobby, nothing to do with ethnicity. I am very pleased to be able to explain this to you, bobad. Now go and check it all out for yourself for once. As for you, Keith, the pro-Israel lobby in the US is right up there with the big corporations and the NRA in terms of undue influence on politics. Quite simply, in the US the shrewd politician does not brief against Israel unless he wants to lose his influence at best or his job at worst. Now when I say undemocratic, the electorate do not vote in the polling booths for AIPAC, the NRA or for big oil companies. Yet no politician would dare suggest banning gun ownership to save lives, putting two dollars per gallon on gas prices to pay for environmental damage or making military aid to Israel conditional on taking part in genuine peace talks with compromise to the fore. It isn't done and it can't be done. Israel never has to give one inch, and it's almost all because of the power of that lobby in the US. Get real, Keith. You'll deny yourself to death one of these days. Come into the real world.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Aug 16 - 09:44 AM

OK Steve, so tell us, if it is true, how Israel lobbyists exert "a cast iron grip" on the US when other lobbyists can just be dismissed.
That was your assertion.
Just for once, justify your claim.

Your latest assertion, that the cause is not even popular, makes it even harder to believe.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 29 Aug 16 - 08:31 AM

the pro-Israel AIPAC mafia

Where have we heard that before? Oh yeah:

Rik Little: If I can I stay away from preloaded titles like Jew. It wastes too much time arguing with idiots. I say Zionists or AIPAC worshipers.
13 hrs

David Blomstrom: The problem is that "Zionist" doesn't include Jewish bankers, the Jews who control the media, etc. A better term is actually "Jewish Mafia," but I still often use "Jews" simply because the Jewish Mafia is so big.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Aug 16 - 08:15 AM

Utter denial. Popular cause my arse. Sinister, ruthless, undemocratic. And before Booboo butts in with his Jew hater nonsense, the pro-Israel AIPAC mafia are by no means all Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Aug 16 - 05:09 AM

Greg,
Your accusation is utter bullshit,

I have made no accusation.
The accusations all came from within the Labour Party.
Does that make them, "serial bullshitters" Greg?

Steve,
Get over yourself apropos of "Labour antisemitism," Keith. A few idiots spoke ignorantly and none of them are antisemites.

Again you show yourself blind to antisemitism Steve. Your definition is clearly flawed and perverse.
Sadiq Khan could see it, but you can't.
You could not see the antisemitism in Shah's comments, but the leadership including Corbyn and the NEC could, other Parties could, and Shah herself could when her ignorance of the facts and issues was corrected.

" your lot," "one of yours," " your sorry affiliations," "You hate Labour and you hate that."

I do not hate Labour and was a Labour voter when Blair was leader.
I have no "lot" or "affiliations," so please drop the personal stuff.

You wildly asserted that the US is "in the cast iron grip of its pro-Israel lobby."
What is the nature of that cast iron grip Steve?
They are just another lobby group (though it is a popular cause).

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 28 Aug 16 - 10:22 PM

Here's one passionate leftist and liberal who won't be voting for Jeremy Corbyn and he doesn't mind telling you why: Why you shouldn't vote for Jeremy Corbyn

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Aug 16 - 05:13 PM

Lies and more lies from our resident liar in chief.

Get over yourself apropos of "Labour antisemitism," Keith. A few idiots spoke ignorantly and none of them are antisemites. The Labour Party is full of people who fight racism in all its forms, hundreds of times more of them than the few silly buggers that you're obsesses with. Hundreds of times more members of Labour Friends Of Israel. That's more than can be said for the piccaninny-lovers in your lot, not to speak of their shabby history of racism. Enoch Powell was one of yours and he'd be right with you now. Smethwick too, yeah? "If you want a nigger for a neighbour, vote Labour." Who the hell are you to preach to anyone about racism with your sorry affiliations? Move on. Everyone else has. It's over. A few idiots. We know that. No institutional antisemitism. You hate Labour and you hate that. Tough shit. You're yesterday's man on this, along with most other things you post about.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Aug 16 - 05:09 PM

Any views on the antisemitism polluting the Left of the Labor Party?

Views? Sure do. Your accusation is utter bullshit, and you are a serial bullshitter, Professor.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Aug 16 - 04:12 PM

Kinda like the women & children & innocent civilians in Gaza and the Occupied Territories, you mean?.

No. Like the huge national armies of its neighbours, armed and trained by the Soviets.
The regime in Gaza attempts atrocities against Israeli civilians from civilian occupied areas so that any retaliation inevitably kills "the women & children & innocent civilians in Gaza."

This thread is about the UK Labour Party not the Middle East.
Any views on the antisemitism polluting the Left of the Party?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Aug 16 - 02:35 PM

under constant threat of attack from its powerful surrounding neighbours

Kinda like the women & children & innocent civilians in Gaza and the Occupied Territories, you mean?.

Israel has, thru right-wing, fundamentalist intransigence & bull-headedness, had a large hand in creating the bed it currently has to lie in, Professor.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Aug 16 - 02:18 PM

It is a tiny sliver of a country that has had to exist under constant threat of attack from its powerful surrounding neighbours supported by a superpower.
For a basket case it has done pretty well so far.

Steve, if the "US that's in the cast iron grip of its pro-Israel lobby" please tell us what leverage Israel's lobbyists have that prevents them being dismissed as just another lobbying group.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Aug 16 - 12:59 PM

Israel is a basket case with or without U.S. aid, Professor.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Aug 16 - 12:38 PM

Have things to do. In haste. Bobad, you condescendingly presume to summarise the piece for me. Well let me gently point out to you that the article was comparing the situation in Israel with the situation in Crimea. That was the WHOLE POINT of the damn thing. Your "summary" didn't even mention Crimea! I mean, whose head did it really go over? 😂😂😂

Teribus, go and look it up. Likewise, Keith. What a bunch of jokers you lot are. Must dash.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Aug 16 - 12:03 PM

Nothing to do with three billion a year in military aid from a US that's in the cast iron grip of its pro-Israel lobby then.

You make my point that Israel is a basket case, dependent on US aid.
It can not buy friends and its lobbyists have no leverage over anyone, except that they tell the truth and the other side lies.

If they or their lobbyists have any other leverage over sovereign governments Steve, please tell us what it is, then we can get back to the Labour Party.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Aug 16 - 11:20 AM

by the way Shaw the only people who have ever illegally "occupied" land in Palestine were the Jordanians (East Jerusalem & the West Bank - invaded and occupied in 1948) and the Egyptians (Gaza - invaded and occupied in 1948). All were returned to the former mandate of Palestine in 1967 when Israeli forces drove out the occupying forces.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Aug 16 - 10:38 AM

Steve Shaw - 28 Aug 16 - 06:11 AM

"Every government in the world (except Israel's😂) regards the Israeli settlements as illegal under international law. They also contravene several UN resolutions, which Israel simply ignores."

Another baseless assertion from Steve Shaw.

1: "the Israeli settlements as illegal under international law"

C'mon then Shaw give us chapter and verse on what international statute or law is being broken. If you cannot then please have the integrity and honesty to admit that you cannot and then shut up about it.

2: "They also contravene several UN resolutions"

What UN Resolutions of Council are the Israelis contravening by ignoring? If you cannot detail them, or even describe them honestly then once again shut up about them.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 28 Aug 16 - 10:13 AM

Correction: that should read: the territory west of the river Jordan to the Mediterranean Sea

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 28 Aug 16 - 10:10 AM

I see the article went completely over your little head so allow me to summarize it for you:

The borders of what constitutes the state of Israel today ie. the territory east of the river Jordan to the Mediterranean Sea were established by the League of Nations in 1922 and nothing that has happened since has legally modified these frontiers.

We continue to hear the term "illegal", but "legal and illegal" has to be more that political desires and interests. It has to refer to law.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Aug 16 - 09:39 AM

Well, booboo, here's me suspecting that you didn't really understand that labyrinthine treatise on technicalities. The two situations, in human being terms, have got very little in common. For a start, almost all the citizens of Crimea would much rather be part of Russia. And you have to think that yer man may not be entirely reliable, going from his last sentence:

"In the end, as has been the case since 1948, Israel will have to rely on itself."

Very funny. Nothing to do with three billion a year in military aid from a US that's in the cast iron grip of its pro-Israel lobby then. And Keith, are you really trying to assert that AIPAC and their dodgy acolytes are all sweetness and democratic light? Come off it. Along with the big corporations they control their politicians pretty well They daren't say boo to a goose.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Aug 16 - 09:18 AM

Steve, Much as I enjoy our discussions about Israel, I am here to discuss the Labour Party.

I do query this statement of yours.
The main reason we have this facade of "friendly relations" with Israel is the disproportionate influence of the pro-Israel lobby,?

Lobbyists can be ignored.
What clout do lobbyists for Israel have over lobbyists for the Palestinians?

Is it not just that Palestinian lobbyists spout propagnanda which carries no influence with well informed Western governments, while Israel's side of the story can be substantiated?

If Israel was guilty of atrocities no-one would give their lobbyists the time of day.
Israel has no oil or strategic reserves to buy friends. The friendship of democratic governments is genuine.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 28 Aug 16 - 08:50 AM

Occupied   

Wrong:   Crimea, International Law, and the West Bank

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Aug 16 - 08:40 AM

Occupied.

You are posting nonsense every time, Keith. "Not tested in court" my arse. Name your court. Right to ignore the UN (i.e., cherrypick the policies that suit you and ignore the rest, to be more accurate) my arse. Of course, the US, Israel's big western poodle, hates the UN. It wants to be able to stick its interfering nose into affairs the world over untrammelled. Hates paying its UN dues, too, and briefs against it when it's not actually vetoing resolutions that everyone else agrees with.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 28 Aug 16 - 08:20 AM

Israeli settlements as illegal under international law.

Please tell us what is the legal status of Judea and Samaria, aka the West Bank, under international law.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Aug 16 - 08:15 AM

steve,
Every government in the world (except Israel's😂) regards the Israeli settlements as illegal under international law.

Never tested in court. Israel may well be right.

They also contravene several UN resolutions,

Only General Council resolutions, where anti-western, anti democratic states have a built in majority. Of course they should be ignored.

Absolute denialist drivel.

It is you who are in denial Steve.
You deny that Shah's comments were antisemitic.
That is contradicted by Labour's leadership including Corbyn himself and the NEC, Shah herself once her ignorance of the facts and issues was dispelled, and indeed by the other Parties.

Your definition of antisemitism is clearly inadequate and perverse, yet you expect it to receive serious consideration in this discussion!
Absolute denialist drivel!

The definition everyone else has adopted seems to be a version of the EUMC definition, and probably those exact definitions.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Aug 16 - 06:11 AM

Every government in the world (except Israel's😂) regards the Israeli settlements as illegal under international law. They also contravene several UN resolutions, which Israel simply ignores. The main reason we have this facade of "friendly relations" with Israel is the disproportionate influence of the pro-Israel lobby, notably the incredibly undemocratic one in the US, the nation which leads the world in nurturing those "friendly relations." No US politician who values his career dares brief against Israel. Bibi and Obama don't get on and Obama doesn't care for those settlements. So when Obama is visiting Israel, Bibi embarrasses him by pointedly announcing new settlements. But Obama knows that he's toast if he utters anything more that the mildest rebuke. Yep, that's how you run those "friendly relations" all right! And yes, Keith, these things have really happened!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Aug 16 - 05:23 AM

Absolute denialist drivel. Every single point you ignorantly raise in that post has been comprehensively dealt with ad nauseam, most of it done to death in this thread alone.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Aug 16 - 04:10 AM

Western media are overwhelmingly on Israel's side, twerp.

That is only true to the extent that Liberal Western Democracies are all on friendly terms with Israel.
That is because they are well informed and know that all that shit you accuse them of is just lying propanda.
If they were really guilty of atrocities, not having any valuable strategic resources, they would be shunned.

Most days for the last five years Syria has committed atrocities against civilians and children that dwarf anything Israel has even been accused of, so why always and only criticise Israel Steve?

Most countries in the region have a much worse human rights record than Israel, so why always and only criticise Israel Steve?

Why do you judge the only Jewish state by different standards than all its neighbours Steve?
By the EUMC definitions, which Labour seems to be working to, that is antisemitic.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Aug 16 - 07:54 PM

Isn't it interesting that those of us who recoil in horror at the brutality of the Holocaust, who would have Holocaust deniers thrown into jail, who support heartily the right of the people of Israel, Jews and non-Jews alike, to live in peace, prosperity and security, who condemn outright the idiots who say they want Israel wiped off the map and who detest the very idea that any state can be "Islamic," can be subjected on this forum to invective from a brainless bigot who tosses around so carelessly and inappropriately phrases such as "final solution." That isn't just bad taste. That is hate speech. I can't possibly take offence at the ramblings and snipings of a cheating, small-minded and very likely drugged idiot such as bobad, but what a shame that the mods here, who are probably ignoring this thread hoping that we'll drown in our own cesspit, allow this stuff to go unpunished, thereby dragging this forum into disrepute. And, by the way, all the points made in my first sentence apply to me, and have all been made by me at least several times, and often many times, on this forum. I dare say they all apply to everyone else here too. Disagree with a single one of them and I'll take you on.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Aug 16 - 06:23 PM

My last post was directed at Teribus.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Aug 16 - 01:16 PM

The REAL question is, what's the final solution to idiots like YOU, Bubo?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Aug 16 - 12:52 PM

And it's taken you all afternoon to come up with that denialist garbage.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 27 Aug 16 - 12:50 PM

You really are insane, aren't you?

Not nearly as insane as someone who believes that making the Jews a minority in their own country, a minority to a majority of Arab Muslims, is a solution to anything in the Middle East.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Aug 16 - 12:11 PM

Steve Shaw - 27 Aug 16 - 07:12 AM


1: "Yes they matter. I don't know where you get the idea from that I defend to the hilt what happens in Islamic states." I don't. I hate it."

Odd then that you only ever go into print to condemn Israel - Never Hamas, Fatah, Hezbollah or their supporters. Gives a very good indication of just how much you hate it doesn't it.

2: "The discrimination I have pointed to in Israel is perfectly deliberate."

Let's go through them shall we?:

The wall was built deliberately.

The road blocks are not accidental

The prisons and justice system are doing what they do by design.

The school buses don't miss the Arab towns out because the satnav maps are out of date.

Now what did I say the primary duty and responsibility of the Israeli Government was again? Oh yes, it was to ensure the safety and security of Israel and the population of Israel irrespective of race, or religion. ALL of the above were security measures brought in to protect the population of Israel and guess what Shaw - it worked.

3: "If those things happened to you you'd go mental."

Now how on earth would, or could, such things happen to me Shaw? After all I do not support those who seek the destruction of any of my neighbours.

4: "or you're defending them because you think that Arabs as a race deserve all they get, innocent or guilty. Which is it to be?

I defend the right of the Israeli Government to implement whatever measures they see fit to protect their population, as our own Government did when faced with the same situation:

We built walls to separate communities
We set up road-blocks and checkpoints
We adopted the use of internment and non-jury trials previously employed in the Irish Republic to counter a terrorist threat.
Vulnerable and precious cargoes were diverted along the safest routes.

Another anomaly Shaw, perhaps just an oversight in your haste to pour condemnation on the Israeli Government, while always failing to cast any blame whatsoever on her enemies, the Israelis are not the only ones to have built barriers, set up road-blocks and checkpoints, set up special judicial measures and used convoy systems and special routes are they? Hamas' only other neighbour, Egypt has done exactly the same along it's border with Gaza - Now why is that Shaw?

Donuel - 27 Aug 16 - 08:37 AM

"Teribus dared to put words in my mouth by decreeing I said something I did not say."

Now what words have I put into your mouth Donuel?

Donuel - 26 Aug 16 - 10:43 AM

"The current right wing Israel is far apart from that end game Steve."

Those were your words that I faithfully quoted and commented as follows:

"Be interested in hearing the rational behind that statement. As far as their track record shows, the Israelis are more than ready to talk to anyone, and when such talks have taken place the agreements reached have stood the test of time. The same however can not be said of those who make up the Palestinian Authority {Their former leader Arafat threw away the best chance they ever had in 2000}, Hamas and Hezbollah. The last two have ruled out any prospect of talks or negotiation, yet as far as you can see it Donuel it would appear that you only see the fault as being only on the side of the Israelis."

Not surprised at all that you will not address points put directly to you - propaganda indeed!!

But when it comes to truth you are rather good at apportioning blame where it doesn't belong are you. Not too shy at smearing the name of the innocent in doing so either. If memory serves me correctly you went into print on this very forum to blacken the name of John McCain, blaming him for the deck fire that occurred on the USS Forrestal in 1967. You persisted in the accusation never admitting your error even when it was pointed out to you that the rocket that caused the fire was accidentally discharged from a wing pod of a Phantom F-4B of VF-11 positioned on the aft deck, John McCain did not fly Phantoms he flew Douglas A-4 Skyhawks - So it should not come as any surprise to you at all that I regard anything you contribute with the greatest scepticism.

Liked the "Shaw being the only one courageous enough to offer a solution" - What Shaw did was to offer a recipe for disaster.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Aug 16 - 10:30 AM

You really are insane, aren't you?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 27 Aug 16 - 10:26 AM

visualize an end game to the Mideast problem

More like a final solution I'd say but it's no mystery why Shaw would support it.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Aug 16 - 10:11 AM

Teribus dared to put words in my mouth

S.O.P.

Ditto Bubo.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Aug 16 - 08:37 AM

Only Steve was courageous and rational enough to attempt to visualize an end game to the Mideast problem or as some call it "Ethniclashistan"

Teribus dared to put words in my mouth by decreeing I said something I did not say.

I can have a discussion with the propaganda of Teribus, but not with Teribus

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Aug 16 - 07:12 AM

Yes they matter. I don't know where you get the idea from that I defend to the hilt what happens in Islamic states. I don't. I hate it. But you don't get let off from stealing my apple because the other lad looks up girls' skirts. The discrimination I have pointed to in Israel is perfectly deliberate. The wall was built deliberately. The road blocks are not accidental. The prisons and justice system are doing what they do by design. The school buses don't miss the Arab towns out because the satnav maps are out of date. If those things happened to you you'd go mental. Now either you deny that these things happen (go on, look them up) or you're defending them because you think that Arabs as a race deserve all they get, innocent or guilty. Which is it to be?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Aug 16 - 06:40 AM

Steve Shaw - 27 Aug 16 - 06:20 AM

No Shaw it is high time that you grew up.

Jews in Israel are not discriminated against? Where did you get that crap from? There are reports of discrimination between different branches of the religion, but again NOT driven by Government Policy which is most certainly against any form of racism, inequality and discrimination.

Now let us all hear you complain about inequality, discrimination and racism in the countries surrounding Israel. Or don't they matter.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Aug 16 - 06:24 AM

"Unsubstantiated Shaw bullshit. Even if it were true who's side would you have them be on? The side who's expressed goal is to kill Jews like you and the party you belong to support?"

I suggest you stay clear of the drink and drugs before you post in future. Better still, why don't you take your bilious hatred elsewhere?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Aug 16 - 06:20 AM

Don't be childish. Of course there is inequality and discrimination everywhere. But, in Israel, Jewish people get their school buses to go through their towns, not around the edges. Jewish people are not held for days at road blocks. Jewish people don't have their family farms cut in half by a concrete wall. Jewish people are not trapped inside a squalid, overcrowded little enclave in their millions. Jewish people are not discriminated against in the workplace. Jewish people are not held in jails for years without charge (I mean, what kind of "democracy" is that!) Now either you think that Jewish people are better in every way than Arabs or there is deliberate discrimination. Make your mind up now. Deliberate, I said. And just because little Jimmy at the desk next to me looks up girls' skirts it doesn't mean that it's OK for me to nick your apple. Do grow up.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Aug 16 - 02:37 AM

I am sure that there are inequalities and discrimination in Israel as exist in every single country and in every single society on this planet Shaw {After all we have been discussing instances of this self same racism in the Labour Party haven't we}, whether it amounts to actual racism or ethnocentrism is open to question. But in Israel as in most other countries it is not deliberate Government policy and it is actively discouraged by Government.

Care to discuss the inequalities and the discrimination faced by minorities in the countries that border Israel? Just to get a balance.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Aug 16 - 09:39 PM

Even if it were true who's side would you have them be on?

Truth's & justice's perhaps?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 26 Aug 16 - 09:21 PM

Western media are overwhelmingly on Israel's side

Unsubstantiated Shaw bullshit. Even if it were true who's side would you have them be on? The side who's expressed goal is to kill Jews like you and the party you belong to support?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Aug 16 - 08:56 PM

Western media are overwhelmingly on Israel's side, twerp. For Christ's sake, man. As for those gross inequalities, I did invite you to look it up. In fact, I've given facts and figures in this very thread. Arabs in Israel are severely discriminated against. In terms of pay, unemployment, housing and education, they lag way behind Israeli Jews. Now either you think that's because Jews are the superior race (knowing you and your sorry ilk, I would hardly be surprised if that's what you thought), or it's because there is serious discrimination against Arabs in Israel. Now why don't you look it up if you don't believe me. I mean, why let facts get in the way of your blind anti-Arab bigotry. Go on, look it up, right now. Apart from those rather obstinate statistics that you'd rather not confront, we have all the stories about non-Jews being held up without reason at pointless road blocks, not to speak of thousands of Palestinians held for years in Israeli jails without charge or even without being told why they're being held. And that includes hundreds of women and children. Uncomfortable, eh? Go on, look it up, why don't you. You won't like what you find, but, of course, you'd far rather chicken out and pontificate about how wonderfully moral the actions of the state of Israel always are than face the facts. You've been seriously taken in, Woodcock, old fruit. It's about time you looked for the facts first instead of settling on received wisdom then finding the propaganda to fit.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Aug 16 - 07:40 PM

"The icing on that multi-layered cake is that Israel has the media on its side in every western country."

EHmmmm I don't think that that was what the Balen Report concluded Shaw, read that sentence of yours to those in the know at the BBC and you'd be laughed out of the building.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Aug 16 - 07:31 PM

Steve Shaw - 26 Aug 16 - 05:39 PM

How does these "gross inequalities between Jews and Arabs in Israel, pointing to severe discrimination against the latter" square with there being 17 out of 120 Arab Knesset Members? What about Israeli Arabs in the Cabinet? Or Israeli Arab Generals in the IDF? Or Israeli Arab Ambassadors?

The Israeli Arabs constitute almost 21% of the population of Israel so with al this discrimination and inequality I really would love to hear how all those mentioned above managed to get through the net.

Tell me Shaw who forms the political opposition in Gaza? I know they don't do elections, but are there any other political Parties in Gaza {Or did they all fly off the roofs of high-rise buildings a few years back?}

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Aug 16 - 05:41 PM

Great minds, Greg. I posted mine before reading yours. Bobad is a chap who never lets facts get in the way. Or two chaps.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Aug 16 - 05:39 PM

Several times in this thread I have described the gross inequalities between Jews and Arabs in Israel, pointing to severe discrimination against the latter. These facts are just that, facts, not my opinions. Easy to access. None so blind, bobad.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Aug 16 - 05:37 PM

That pretty much describes Israel today

You're joking, right? Or just blind?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 26 Aug 16 - 04:51 PM

"A single secular democratic state with equal rights for all regardless of ethnicity, Jews and non-Jews living side by side. No mini-enclaves of Jews or Arabs."

That pretty much describes Israel today - can't say the same for it's neighbours though.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Aug 16 - 04:49 PM

So they're all unreconstructed savages with tribal values who are best left to tear each other to pieces, Teribus. Not actual human beings. You really haven't got a clue, have you. As for Israel's talks, there have been no genuine talks ever, for the very simple reason that, thanks to the unconditional bankrolling by the US of all their military needs, Israel never has to give one inch. And no politician in the US who values his career dares brief against Israel. The icing on that multi-layered cake is that Israel has the media on its side in every western country. There are reasons for that that we don't need to go into here, but, before booboo chimes in, it has nothing to do with "Jews controlling the mass media," etc.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Aug 16 - 04:39 PM

That would have to be part of the deal, Donuel. I've visited Cyprus three times in recent years. A terribly divided island since the Turkish occupation of the north in 1973, though in that case, unlike with Israel/Palestine, current confrontations are muted. But if the two halves ever get together again there are deep-rooted recriminations to resolve. Tough. The Greek side still harbours resentments about the theft of their ancestral homes, that kind of thing, and the Turkish side feels threatened. It's sad to see such a massive army presence for such a tiny population in the north. As with Israel-Palestine, there is a mountain to climb. One side declaring that they want the other side wiped off the map is no way to go. The people in northern Cyprus are struggling. But they are just ordinary people, not devils. I saw their market stalls in Kyrenia piled high with the most amazing produce, and no-one there to buy it.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Aug 16 - 04:24 PM

Steve Shaw - 26 Aug 16 - 09:01 AM

"A single secular democratic state with equal rights for all regardless of ethnicity, Jews and non-Jews living side by side. No mini-enclaves of Jews or Arabs."

Worked out well in the Lebanon didn't it Shaw - And of course Gaza for that matter.

Donuel - 26 Aug 16 - 10:43 AM

"The current right wing Israel is far apart from that end game Steve."

Be interested in hearing the rational behind that statement. As far as their track record shows, the Israelis are more than ready to talk to anyone, and when such talks have taken place the agreements reached have stood the test of time. The same however can not be said of those who make up the Palestinian Authority {Their former leader Arafat threw away the best chance they ever had in 2000}, Hamas and Hezbollah. The last two have ruled out any prospect of talks or negotiation, yet as far as you can see it Donuel it would appear that you only see the fault as being only on the side of the Israelis.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Aug 16 - 04:11 PM

Bloody Nora, Kevin, OK. Central government garners the dough via taxation then decides how and to whom it should be channelled and in what amounts.

A ridiculous point about perspective, Woodcock. Useless. Stop struggling.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Aug 16 - 01:10 PM

Ya want REAL anti-semites Bubo? Check out these "alt-right" assholes.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/27/us/politics/alt-right-reaction.html?_r=0

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Aug 16 - 10:43 AM

The current right wing Israel is far apart from that end game Steve.
Would Palestine homes and farms be made whole again?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Aug 16 - 09:01 AM

A single secular democratic state with equal rights for all regardless of ethnicity, Jews and non-Jews living side by side. No mini-enclaves of Jews or Arabs. There is absolutely no other ultimate answer. At present, of all the nations on earth calling themselves denocracies, Israel is by easily the furthest away from that ideal. If you're an Arab in Israel, democracy ends for you the moment you leave the polling booth.

Your latest post is your most childish yet, Teribus. Sun's shining and I'm gardening, so bugger off.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Aug 16 - 08:42 AM

I have one question of both camps. It may not have an answer. You may not want to answer such a question that demands honesty and courage

.
Teribus bobad and Keith Shaw, What is your most preferred end game/solution/outcome for Israel and Palestine , whether it takes one or a thousand generations ?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 26 Aug 16 - 08:18 AM

Gaza is now the world's biggest jail

Gaza in 2016: a Hamas production.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Aug 16 - 08:02 AM

Steve Shaw - 26 Aug 16 - 05:34 AM

Shaw at his hilarious best:

1: Egypt is in a mess because it no longer pursues a policy aimed at the destruction of Israel and the annihilation of it's population.

2: Talking about "Bastions of democracy" Shaw, when were the last elections held in Gaza and in the West Bank eh? How many elections have the Israelis cancelled, postponed and dispensed with?

3: Pity your pals in Hamas, Hezbollah, Syria and Iran can't see their way to "supporting the UN ceasefire agreements".

4: What UN Resolutions? Resolution in Council or Assembly, the former are binding on member states, the others are non-binding and serve as "recommendations" - Major difference there Shaw and you are perfectly aware of that difference.

5: ."That Gaza is now the world's biggest jail" is down entirely to the people who say they are representing the population and governing the place. It most certainly is NOT the fault of the people they are attacking.

6: "Denying building materials to rebuild them" What denial of building materials Shaw? Where do you think Hamas got the concrete, cement, steel and rebar to construct their underground shelters and bunkers? Shelters and protection for the "fighters" Shaw - nothing whatsoever for the population they are supposed to be looking after.

7: White Phosphorus does not light up the sky - quite the reverse in fact - but trotting out lines like that is simply emotive claptrap.

8: Since 2005, 15,000 rockets and missiles of various types have been fired from Gaza into Israel. Under similar circumstances had that amount of ordnance had been fired into the UK, I would fully expect that our Government and our armed forces would have taken every measure at their command to eradicate the source of that bombardment and those carrying out the attacks along with anyone supporting them.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Aug 16 - 05:34 AM

The peace agreement with Egypt was a sell-out, and just look what a happy country Egypt has been ever since. Bastion of democracy, eh? Good to see you supporting the UN ceasefire agreements. Pity about all those UN resolutions, ignored by Israel, vetoed by their massive poodle the US, isn't it though? And in your defence of Israel's defending itself, you forgot to mention that Gaza is now the world's biggest jail, that Israel has a habit of bulldozing homes, denying building materials to rebuild them and lighting up the skies with white phosphorus in order to pick out schools to shell. Gosh, isn't self-defence such a loose term! Now remind me, how many children did they kill last time out in a territory they had purported to have abandoned? Oh, and those two refugee camps in Lebanon...self-defence again, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Aug 16 - 02:28 AM

Steve Shaw - 25 Aug 16 - 08:03 PM

"If comparing casualties is your game (it isn't mine either, if you must know), then any starting point shows Israel in a terrible light. I did suggest not going there but it seems you can't help it,"

But Shaw comparing casualties is very much your thing - you after all introduced the subject and requested those figures, taking 1967 as your start point {Conveniently ignoring the 47 years of conflict that preceded your selected start point} - you did write this didn't you?

Steve Shaw - 23 Aug 16 - 05:38 AM

"And let's have your comparative Israeli/"Arab" casualty figures for, say, the period since the '67 war. Don't forget to include the Gazan women and children and the massacred refugees in Lebanon, old chap."

That being the case Shaw - you can hardly castigate someone for actually providing information that you, yourself have requested.

Ratio British to German civilian casualties during the Second World War was 1:43 - that is what results from starting and waging an all out war and losing it.

Ratio Jewish/Israeli to Arab casualties since 1920 has been as follows for dead and wounded:

Deaths 1:4
Wounded 1:2

The same ratios starting at 1967

Deaths 1:10
Wounded 1:3

Israel is being constantly accused of waging an all out war against the Palestinians by your pals Shaw - the figures simply do not show that. They do however show that the "Leaders" of the "Palestinian" people particularly in Gaza must be on the slowest learning curve in human history. Tell me Shaw how many "Palestinians" were killed by the Israeli Defence Force in the last month? How many attacks and how many rockets have been fired into Israel from Gaza in the last month?. Then go back and look for the same information over whatever period you like since Israel's unilateral withdrawal from Gaza in 2005 and then see whether or not if there is a clear correlation.

Steve Shaw - 25 Aug 16 - 08:58 PM

"The only people on the planet who never have to talk are the Israeli regime. The US, with its totally unconditional military aid, makes sure that Israel never has to talk. Oh yes, they will enter talks but only on their terms. That makes it look like they're talking, but all the talks ever held have been a sham, because, put simply, Israel can do what they like."

The peace agreement signed with Egypt was no sham.

The peace agreement signed with Jordan was no sham.

The ceasefire agreements brokered by the UN have been complied with by Israel and largely ignored by Hezbollah, Hamas and Al-Fatah.

If it is talks that you say must happen, then try convincing Hamas and Hezbollah they have no intention whatsoever of talking, their aims are quite clear, you might be in denial over them but the Israeli Government is not. The primary responsibility of the democratically elected Government of Israel is to look to and provide for the safety and security of the people and state of Israel from any and all attacks - that it has done remarkably well against incredible odds since the inception of the State of Israel in 1948.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: ripov
Date: 25 Aug 16 - 09:30 PM

Just a quick dip into and out from a rather boring thread -

1. How come some people feel they are entitled to their own special brand of racism (i.e. antisemitism). Behaviour is either racist or not. Whichever race is implied is irrelevant. And making differences because of race is certainly racism.
2. Palestinians are also semites.
3. Most governments are organisations of rogues. The ones in question don't seem to be exceptions.
4, While Corbyn appears to be an honourable exception, the rest of the parliamentary labour party appear to be a bunch of backstabbing self-seekers, who no-one in their right mind would vote for.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Aug 16 - 09:23 PM

Israel can pretend to enter talks, but it's relationship with the US, predicated on the fact that no US politician who values his career can ever brief against Israel, means that it need never offer a single crumb of compromise. You really don't understand any of this, do you, cheat?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Aug 16 - 09:19 PM

Brainless burbling. Are you seriously accusing ME of cursing and spitting at G4S employees? Well let me tell you that I didn't even know about any G4S spat! Jesus Christ on a bike even Woodcock at his most ebullient must be squirming at such a laughable allusion, you bloody twit. Grow up, why don't you.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 25 Aug 16 - 09:17 PM

if Hamas want to progress they will have to talk

You're such a sap Shaw - name one Islamist terrorist group that has "talked".




'[Peace] initiatives,   and   so-called   peaceful   solutions   and

international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of

the Islamic Resistance Movement... Those conferences are no more than

a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of

Islam... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by

Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a

waste of time, an exercise in futility.' (Article 13 Covenant of Hamas.)

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 25 Aug 16 - 09:06 PM

Labour dropped the British-Danish G4S multinational security firm over its relationship with Israel following a controversial vote last year by members of its National Executive Committee. It then sought to find a replacement for the September 25 Liverpool event, in vain.

Unable to find an alternative security firm, the left-wing party went back to G4S earlier this week, only to be turned down.

Quite apart from any bitter feelings left over from the Israel-related boycott, the company told the Telegraph newspaper it refused to work with UK Labour in light a number of incidents in which members of the party (Shaw?) cursed at and spat on G4S employees.

Britain's Jewish community leaders have accused Corbyn of both encouraging anti-Semitic rhetoric with his policies on Israel and of whitewashing the hate speech problems they said this creates within Labour. The party has in recent months also faced a succession of scandals over anti-Semitism within its ranks.

TOI

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Aug 16 - 08:58 PM

So? You are under some kind of illusion that you can cut me to the quick by mentioning Hamas. Well you can't. I have no time for Hamas. I have lots of time for the people trapped. You know as well as I do that if Hamas want to progress they will have to talk. Simple as that. The IRA had to talk. The only people on the planet who never have to talk are the Israeli regime. The US, with its totally unconditional military aid, makes sure that Israel never has to talk. Oh yes, they will enter talks but only on their terms. That makes it look like they're talking, but all the talks ever held have been a sham, because, put simply, Israel can do what they like. Now you should be in bed. Both of you, you cheating pair. Don't go biting each other's arses in bed now. You might get over-excited, you know.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 25 Aug 16 - 08:13 PM

'The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and

kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the

rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind

me, come and kill him.'

Covenant of Hamas Article 7.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Aug 16 - 08:03 PM

We don't have to cherrypick starting points, Teribus. If comparing casualties is your game (it isn't mine either, if you must know), then any starting point shows Israel in a terrible light. I did suggest not going there but it seems you can't help it, then when your figures are not looking good, which they can never do, you invent all manner of tortuous "explanations."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Aug 16 - 07:30 PM

I.e., "Shall we go over all that again"

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Aug 16 - 07:29 PM

Weasel words, bobad (do look that up). The man who killed you is always the man who fired the bullet. You are the master of denial (not to speak of cowardliness, cheating and lying -shall we go,overall that again?) Here's an illustration of denial for you, written by a Jewish man as it happens (not that that should bother us). Read and learn.

They held up a stone.
I said, "Stone."
Smiling they said, "Stone."

They showed me a tree.
I said, "Tree."
Smiling they said, "Tree."

They shed a man's blood.
I said, "Blood."
Smiling they said, "Paint."

They shed a man's blood.
I said, "Blood."
Smiling they said, "Paint."

[Dannie Abse]

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 25 Aug 16 - 07:14 PM

Hamas are neither friends of mine nor of the Labour Party.

Jeremy Corbyn calling Hamas and Hezbollah "our friends" ie of the Labour Party: YouTube.

Shaw is a master at denying inconvenient truths when it suits his cause.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 25 Aug 16 - 07:06 PM

The UN says the vast majority of Palestinian deaths are civilian.

Hamas and all the other terrorist groups in Gaza fight as civilians. They also, self admittedly, use civilians as human shields. The IDF goes way beyond the norm in trying to avoid civilian deaths, it is considered to be the most moral army in the world by military experts.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Aug 16 - 06:16 PM

Arab/Israeli casualty figures since 1967 (For some reason Shaw has cherry-picked this start point):

Israeli Deaths - 7,661
Israeli Wounded - 19,334

Arab Deaths - 74,840
Arab Wounded - 59,011

That is what you asked for wasn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Aug 16 - 05:01 PM

2014.

"Between 8 July and 27 August, more than 2,100 Palestinians were killed in the Gaza Strip, along with 66 Israeli soldiers and seven civilians in Israel.
The UN says the vast majority of Palestinian deaths are civilian. But figures from previous operations over the past six years in the densely populated Gaza Strip show it is not the first time civilians have paid a heavy price." [BBC]

Just a cherrypicked snippet. It really isn't worth getting us started on this, is it, Teribus?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Aug 16 - 04:53 PM

Hamas are neither friends of mine nor of the Labour Party. My views on religion and religion-led politics are well known on this forum. I don't know how many times I've publicly disapproved of Hamas, or stated that people who declare that Israel should be wiped off the map are lunatics. So stuff your silliness where the sun don't shine, bobad. If there's any room left up there next to the bullshit therein, of course. Oops, I forgot. There are two of you, of course, both cheats. There may be more room than I thought.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Aug 16 - 01:33 PM

Source, T-Bird? Or just your arse again?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Aug 16 - 01:31 PM

You have nothing to counter them "."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Aug 16 - 01:00 PM

Here are the statistics:

Source, T-Bird?? Or just your arse again?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Aug 16 - 12:57 PM

The only person arsing about here Greg F. is you.

Here are the statistics:

Arab/Israeli casualty figures since 1967 (For some reason Shaw has cherry-picked this start point):

Israeli Deaths - 7,661
Israeli Wounded - 19,334

Arab Deaths - 74,840
Arab Wounded - 59,011

Do you want to move the goal posts Shaw?

Since 1920 the figures are as follows:

Jewish/Israeli Deaths - 24,969
Jewish/Israeli Wounded - 36,260

Arab Deaths - 91,105
Arab Wounded - 78,038

If you wish to dispute those figures Greg F. then present figures of your own. If you can't or won't then STFU about them.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 25 Aug 16 - 09:54 AM

And another misrepresentation.....

Misrepresentation Greg?

Shaw has stated publicly that he is a member of the Labour party.

Here's a link to Corbyn talking of the party's friends Hamas and Hezbollah: YouTube

You are the only one misrepresenting here. Give us something of substance for once.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Aug 16 - 09:42 AM

Of course the figures can be substantiated

Then do so and stop arseing about.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Aug 16 - 09:35 AM

Of course the figures can be substantiated Greg - But that wouldn't be good enough for you would it? So I challenged you to come up with figures of your own to cross-check with the ones I provided - then there would be no argument would there?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Aug 16 - 08:57 AM

I have already posted the figures you requested

Figures which you can't substantiate, Mr. T

And another misrepresentation from Bubo.

Different day, same shite.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 25 Aug 16 - 07:45 AM

Shaw is a member of a party that counts Hamas among it's friends.........enough said.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Aug 16 - 04:31 AM

Don't know about that Shaw, remember I have already posted the figures you requested plus the ones going back to 1920 and they were not really as disproportionate as you and your pals like to make out.

But there again you and your pals think that there is, or should be, some sort of "tit-for-tat" equivalence when it comes to war - simply put there isn't. Since 1920 the Arabs of the region have chosen armed conflict as their way of solving what they see as the Jewish problem. It is most certainly NOT the fault of the Jews of the region and latterly of Israel that they simply happen to be a damned sight better at armed conflict than their Arab antagonists - perhaps it may have had something to do with motivation, the Israelis know with absolute certainty what their fate would be should they ever lose, so they make sure that they don't.

When the Ottoman Empire was broken up there were two multi-cultural secular enclaves created where religious tolerance would be the norm - Lebanon and Palestine - to make the latter 77% of the original Palestine Mandate was hived off and given to the Arabs of the region for their sole settlement. That however wasn't good enough they wanted the lot. Lebanon has all but vanished as haven of tolerance it was supposed to be and is now an armed camp where various militias watch each other like hawks, only Israel remains as a democratic, secular, multi-faith and multi-cultural country surrounded by those who wish to destroy it.

As Greg F. doesn't seem able to produce the figures Shaw maybe you could have a go at it? And you never know maybe you could provide a link to show the Hamas Map of this Two-State Solution that they claim to be fighting for. But as both you and I know Shaw - no such map exists - and you are not honest enough to acknowledge that.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Aug 16 - 08:42 PM

Er, the figures wouldn't exactly help your case, would they, Teribus? 😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Aug 16 - 07:47 PM

Greg F. - 24 Aug 16 - 12:16 PM

Hey Greg F., see your internet research skills as still lacking as ever. C'mon sunshine give us "your" Arab/Israeli casualty figures dead/wounded for the period covering 1967 to the present day like your pal Steve Shaw requested.

Best not hold our breath though eh?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Aug 16 - 12:26 PM

Cor, bobad, if only I were a conspiracy theorist... 😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Aug 16 - 12:16 PM

Well,Bubo, That's the wonder of Anti-Social Media- in a nanosecond, cranks,assholes, morons, and idiots can spew (or rather tweet/twat) and distribute their garbage to a world-wide audience.

However, what have this current crop of assholes got to do with anti-semitism in the Labour Party?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 24 Aug 16 - 10:31 AM

London's Muslim Mayor Barraged by Anti-Semites for Opposing Jeremy Corbyn

(JTA) — London Mayor Sadiq Khan, the first Muslim mayor of a European capital city, has been bombarded with anti-Semitic messages since he said he would not support Jeremy Corbyn in the Labour Party leadership election.

Several of the messages suggested that he had been influenced by Jews, the London-based news website Jewishnews.uk reported.

The mayor "spends his time writing articles to help his masters in Tel Aviv," read one tweet.

"Who owns you @sadiqkhan?" read another, which included a photo of Khan wearing a kippah while eating matzah at a Jewish community event.

Last week, Khan threw his support behind Owen Smith, who has been a Parliament member since 2010 and is Corbyn's only challenger for the party leadership. Smith previously worked as a radio and television producer for the BBC.

Khan, a Labour member, wrote an op-ed published Saturday in The Guardian newspaper in support of Smith. He said in the London-based daily that if Corbyn remained party leader, Labour would be unlikely to win the next general election. Khan also said Corbyn "has already proved that he is unable to organize an effective team, and has failed to win the trust and respect of the British people."

In a June op-ed in The Jerusalem Post, Kahn pledged to root out anti-Semitism in London and in the Labour Party.

Some 500,000 ballots for the leadership race were sent out to party members on Monday; the results will be announced next month.

JTA

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Aug 16 - 07:23 AM

The EUMC has not existed for the last nine years. The "working definition" was OFFICIALLY ditched by its successor organisation in 2013, having NEVER been either adopted nor endorsed in any case. This is the inviolable truth of the matter that anyone can look up in five minutes. Of course, anyone can say they've "adopted" a defunct document. Christians do it all the time. You really are barking mad.

Naz Shah was put under mutually-agreed administrative supension pending investigation, then reinstated. The inviolable truth that anyone can look up in less than five minutes. Everything else is loose comment, opinion, bigging up by the pro-Israeli regime right wing (including you) and hearsay. I've seen many a box of frogs less mad than you. In the overall planetary scheme of things, Naz Shah was a storm in a teacup. Note "was." It's gone, Keith. Gone. Dead. You've nailed it to its perch to no avail. The issue has rung down the curtain and joined the choir invisible. It has ceased to be. It is an ex-issue.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Aug 16 - 03:53 AM

Parting thought,
Labour's NEC suspended Shah for her antisemitic comments, endorsed by Corbyn and Shah herself, but to you they were not antisemitic.

Perhaps Labour has adopted the EUMC definitions that you still deny.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Aug 16 - 03:13 AM

Nyah nyah nyah, Keith

I can not argue against such logic.
I do not know why you chose to bring up the subject, but understand why you are dropping it.
It was irrelevant to the case I was making.

You still deny that anrisemitism was and is a problem within the Left of the Party.
You deny Shah's antisemitic statements even though she was suspended for them, and Corbyn and Shah herself fully acknowledged that they were antisemitic.

You are incapable of recognising antisemitism when it is put in front of you.

I am offline for a few days.
Enjoy.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Aug 16 - 12:46 AM

And you Greg F. have proved conclusively that you are a idle, moronic Troll, incapable of finding anything out for yourself - "Thanks for the clarification". And CERTAINLY, no surprise, to me

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Aug 16 - 06:15 PM

Look them up for yourself as I did and post them

By which you mean to say that you pulled those "statistics" out of your arse & can't substantiate them.

Thanks for the clarification. And again, no surprise.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Aug 16 - 02:28 PM

Nyah nyah nyah, Keith. Old ground upon which you have been comprehensively destroyed over and over again. Anyone who wants the truth can easily find the facts about your definition that never made it over the line and about your unofficial quasi-quango ("advised" by pro-Israel lobby groups and hardly anyone else) that decided it was going to cling to it despite its being trashed years ago by the EU. It's all in this thread. Teribus, with his lust for facts, would never support you on this. Even he wouldn't want to make such a bloody fool of himself. A bit of googling and a couple of clicks is all it takes.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Aug 16 - 01:17 PM

While you're about that Greg F. how about posting a reference or a link to that Palestinian Authority/Hamas/Fatah/Hezbollah Map that shows the borders of this Two-State Solution they keep telling the UN they are fighting for.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Aug 16 - 01:13 PM

Greg F. - 23 Aug 16 - 11:46 AM

Arab/Israeli casualty figures - Look them up for yourself as I did and post them.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Aug 16 - 12:59 PM

Steve,
A definition that was never official,
Yes it was.
never advocated,
It certainly was.
never EU policy,

Obviously. It is definitions of antisemitism, not a policy document.

ditched in 2013,

Still there now.

drawn up by an unofficial committee that was "advised" by bodies that almost entirely comprised pro-Israel lobbyists.

More "Steve Wild Assertions that he can not substantiate with any facts.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Aug 16 - 12:29 PM

Read the article to the bottom, Teribus, instead of snatching the first few lines. The evidence is simply not good enough, is it?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Aug 16 - 11:46 AM

Arab/Israeli casualty figures since 1967

Source?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Aug 16 - 11:35 AM

"you have no proof that Hamas used human shields"

I don't need any when Hamas spokesmen themselves go on Television and admit that they do.

From Channel 4 Fact Check:

"Hamas has made no secret of advocating the use of civilians as human shields to try to face down Israeli aggression.

A senior spokesman for the group, Sami Abu Zuhri, gave an interview on Palestinian station al-Aqsa TV earlier this month."

The date was July 8, 2014 and the television channel was owned by Hamas so hardly any bias eh Shaw?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Aug 16 - 10:19 AM

Well you know me. I just LURVE to cherrypick. So how's about starting in 2000... By the way, you have no proof that Hamas used human shields, except for "they're Islamists and what more do you need..." 😂

You hope that repeating the same nonsense will make it true, Keith. Well life's not like that. A definition that was never official, never advocated, never EU policy, ditched in 2013, drawn up by an unofficial committee that was "advised" by bodies that almost entirely comprised pro-Israel lobbyists. I do know how dearly you want to cling on to it like a teddy or a comfort blanket. But it ain't real, Keith, and never was. Nurse will explain it to you later...

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Aug 16 - 10:16 AM

Arab/Israeli casualty figures since 1967

Source?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Aug 16 - 09:54 AM

Rag,
I don't show myself as anything professor because I haven't commented on it. Contrary to your belief you are not entitled to anything.

Huh?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Aug 16 - 09:51 AM

But as Shaw did ask

Arab/Israeli casualty figures since 1967 (For some reason Shaw has cherry-picked this start point):

Israeli Deaths - 7,661
Israeli Wounded - 19,334

Arab Deaths - 74,840
Arab Wounded - 59,011

Do you want to move the goal posts Shaw?

Since 1920 the figures are as follows:

Jewish/Israeli Deaths - 24,969
Jewish/Israeli Wounded - 36,260

Arab Deaths - 91,105
Arab Wounded - 78,038

Considering the number of occasions where having been offered peace the Arabs of the region have chosen war then those figures are not disproportionate at all.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Aug 16 - 09:29 AM

" let's have your comparative Israeli/"Arab" casualty figures" - Steve Shaw

In 1947 as the Great Britain's League of Nations Mandate was coming to an end, the UN offered the Jews of Palestine and the Arabs of Palestine a Two-State solution, the former were prepared to accept it, the latter refused and opted to go to war. Chose violence and you must accept the consequences - their aim at the time, clearly stated was that they were going to drive the Jews of Palestine into the sea - in short Shaw they were promising annihilation.

Chose violence as the Leaders of the Palestinian Arabs have done and attack a sovereign state then accept that they will retaliate and they may well be far better at retaliating than you are at attacking and that is what has proved to be the case over the past 68 years.

Second World War:

British Civilian Casualty figures - 67,200
German Civilian Casualty figures - 1,550,000 to 2,950,000

They seem a bit disproportionate to you Shaw? War is not a game, it is not subject to equivalence.

The Israeli's unilaterally withdrew from Gaza in 2005, since then {Having been given everything they said they wanted} over 15,000 missiles of some sort or another have been launched from Gaza and fired into Israel, indiscriminately targeting Israeli civilians. If you are fussed about civilians being killed in Gaza Shaw get Corbyn to have a word with his Hamas mates and tell them to stop all attacks on Israel and just in case they for some reason or another cannot do that then tell them that if they want to fight then have them stop hiding behind civilians when they do it.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Aug 16 - 09:17 AM

Show me where Corbyn has said "Naz Shah is antisemitic."

He said her comments were antisemitic, and she was suspended for them.

She's apologised for her stupidity and ignorance

She apologised specifically for making antisemitic statements.

Not an official EU organisation.

The EUMC definitions are adopted by the "European Parliament Working Group On Antisemitism," are published on their website today and have been for years, and have been adopted even beyond EU.
http://www.antisem.eu/projects/eumc-working-definition-of-antisemitism/

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Aug 16 - 05:38 AM

Not an official EU organisation. The advisory board consists of pro-Israel lobby groups. It is not the EUMC as you keep implying. You cling to this like a dried turd pellet to an arse hair. Turn the record over. Anyone can say they've adopted anything they like, but the TRUTH is that the EU NEVER adopted the definition and NEVER advocated that ANYONE ELSE took it up.

And I don't give a shit what the ex-prime minister thinks, the man who lets dead pigs fellate him. Show me where Corbyn has said "Naz Shah is antisemitic." You really can't wring any more out of this one, Keith. She's apologised for her stupidity and ignorance. If she thinks what she said was antisemitic I think she is wrong. I've been over her relevant remarks and shown that she said nothing that attacked Jews BECAUSE THEY ARE JEWS. It's over, Keith. Only desperadoes like you and bobad and the Daily Mail keep burbling on about it.

The thread is about what people post in it, Teribus. Only people like Keith whose arguments are going belly-up moan about thread drift below the line. And let's have your comparative Israeli/"Arab" casualty figures for, say, the period since the '67 war. Don't forget to include the Gazan women and children and the massacred refugees in Lebanon, old chap.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Aug 16 - 05:36 AM

I don't show myself as anything professor because I haven't commented on it. Contrary to your belief you are not entitled to anything.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Aug 16 - 04:16 AM

Keith will tell you that the discarded (in 2013) and discredited "working definition" of antisemitism, never advocated by the EU for adoption BY ANYONE, drawn up by an EUMC that has now been defunct for NINE YEARS

Keith will tell you that those definitions are adopted by the "European Parliament Working Group On Antisemitism," are published on their website today, and have been adopted even beyond EU.
http://www.antisem.eu/projects/eumc-working-definition-of-antisemitism/

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Aug 16 - 04:09 AM

Steve,
Naz says, under considerable pressure, that she's said something antisemitic (I heartily disagree with her, but hey ho), so she's spot on

She said it under no pressure, after she had been reinstated.
You disagree not only with her, but also the Prime Minister and Corbyn himself that IT WAS ANTISEMITIC.

You show yourself as unable to recognise antisemitism.

Rag, you stated the view that being unable to recognise racism is racist.
Do you regard antisemitism as racism, or do you still have a double standard on that?
"A different argument" you said.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Aug 16 - 02:14 AM

Greg F. - 21 Aug 16 - 01:55 PM

Good heavens Greg F. must have read the Balen Report - Lucky boy!!! Nobody else got to.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Aug 16 - 02:02 AM

"people who feel sorry for ordinary Israelis whose leaders and allies are imposing insecurity on them." - Steve Shaw

Would dearly love an explanation of that claptrap.

Would those be the same "leaders" who saw to the organisation of the defence, security, well-being and prosperity of their people in:

1920 - when they were attacked by the Arabs
1921 - when they were attacked by the Arabs
1929 - when they were attacked by the Arabs
1936 - when they were attacked by the Arabs
1948 - when they were attacked by the Arabs
1950s - when they were attacked by the Arabs
1967 - when they were attacked by the Arabs
1973 - when they were attacked by the Arabs
1980s - when they were attacked by the Arabs
1990s - when they were attacked by the Arabs
2000s - when they were attacked by the Arabs
2010s - when they were attacked by the Arabs

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Aug 16 - 01:49 AM

Steve Shaw - 19 Aug 16 - 11:29 AM

"If you deplore bullying and intimidation in the Tory party, then let's see you expend as many words on it now as you have on Labour's"

What is the subject of this thread again? And here we have somebody seemingly complaining about the amount of attention being focused on Labour. Why don't you open a similar thread on the Tory Party Shaw?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Aug 16 - 07:12 PM

To be clear, thank God for the Jews of this world that people like Keith and bobad have no power is what I meant.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Aug 16 - 07:04 PM

Greg, they also adopt definitions that fit their political agenda. Keith will tell you that the discarded (in 2013) and discredited "working definition" of antisemitism, never advocated by the EU for adoption BY ANYONE, drawn up by an EUMC that has now been defunct for NINE YEARS, pushed for fervently by an advisory board that represented almost exclusively Jewish/Israeli interests, is the one to go for. Not because he thinks it's a fair definition, but because its a definition that proscribes all criticism of the actions of the state of Israel, poor old Israel that needs Keith "to put their side of the story" contrary to all the facts at our disposal. Stuff that criticises the excesses of a state that HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HATING JEWS BECAUSE THEY ARE JEWS. Keith and booboo haven't a clue what real, vicious antisemitism is, the kind that put six million innocent people in lethal jeopardy and which those two still employ in order to continue to put ordinary Jewish people in harm's way. Thank God for the Jews of this world that they have no power or influence is all I can say. If only they knew what they are doing. Keith and bobad and their ilk are the mortal enemies of Jewish people the world over. It's bloody shocking the way they behave here, it is.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Aug 16 - 06:25 PM

Of course, when you and your pals make up your own definitions.............

Unlike you, Bubo, who make up your own "facts".

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Aug 16 - 05:28 PM

It's interesting, isn't it. If I told Keith that Naz Shah was an avid supporter of Jeremy, was an avid supporter of Hamas, was an avid supporter of Remain, was an avid supporter of boycotting Israeli goods, was an avid supporter of reinstating the rights of disabled people that the Tories have removed, was an avid supporter of ending austerity, etc. etc. (all true), he'd be calling her, variously, a liar, deluded, bigoted, antisemitic, a terrorist apologist, far left, etc. etc. Yet when she says something a little contritional, she is oh so truthful that we have to hang on her every word as gospel. Naz says, under considerable pressure, that she's said something antisemitic (I heartily disagree with her, but hey ho), so she's spot on. Dead right. Not to be argued with. But on everything else she says she's a scurrilous lying little leftie bastard. Typical of the Murdoch-driven extreme right represented by Keith and his sorry ilk that they try to have their cake, full of picked cherries, and eat it. Well you're really easy to see through, Keith. And you lied about her and you're still lying about her. Her suspension was mutually agreed pending investigation. Not for any other reason. Then she was rapidly reinstated. I know you don't like it. I know it doesn't suit your weak and flaccid case. But that's the truth. And I'll tell you another thing. I'm a member of a party that is replete with supporters of Israel. The are dozens of times more of them than there are alleged antisemites. They even have their own official lobby group within the party (nowhere near as nasty as the one in the Tory party, but I still don't much care for it). It doesn't matter to me. I understand arguments that sympathise with all the people of Israel. I'm not affiliating myself to any setup or any individual who wants Israel wiped off the map. I actually want far more for Israeli people than you do. I do not want Israeli people put in harm's way, unlike you, bobad and Bibi.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 22 Aug 16 - 04:40 PM

.....if you can find just one one post of mine that is racist or anti-Semitic

Of course, when you and your pals make up your own definitions.............

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Aug 16 - 02:25 PM

Bobad, As I've already said to the professor if you can find just one one post of mine that is racist or anti-Semitic I will not only apologise profusely but I will withdraw from any further comment on this thread.



I wish the same could be said of other contributors.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 22 Aug 16 - 01:40 PM

What about the anti-Semites, Raggy?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Aug 16 - 01:22 PM

Professor, I think you should be suspended from this forum for your abject racism, your bigotry and basically for being a very unpleasant person.

"Christian" I don't think so.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Aug 16 - 12:29 PM

You really haven't got a clue, have you? 😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Aug 16 - 12:16 PM

Sorry Keith, but your link clearly shows that she was not suspended for antisemitism.

It clearly shows that she was!
Corbyn and his aides accepted that her comments were antisemitic and she herself admitted it, so of course she had to be suspended for it.

The "investigation" was not into whether she had made antisemitic comments.
That was already established.
They just had to decide what to do with her.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Aug 16 - 09:06 AM

Sorry Keith, but your link clearly shows that she was not suspended for antisemitism. She was suspended PENDING INVESTIGATION. More later.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Aug 16 - 08:52 AM

That's OK Professor - you cannot recognise fact when it is put in front of you. So I guess you're even.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Aug 16 - 08:41 AM

Yes Rag, but Steve has shown again that he cannot recognise antisemitism when it is put in front of him.

It is his judgement on it that can be dismissed, and not those of Jews and non-Jews who have worked for the Party for most or all of their adult lives and who speak from actual experience and knowledge, unlike him.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Aug 16 - 06:28 AM

Old news that was dealt with promptly by the Labour Party, not brushed under the carpet as other party's are wont to do.

It has also been covered here .............. ad nauseam.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Aug 16 - 04:36 AM

Steve,

Give me any quote from any LABOUR OFFICIAL that she was suspended FOR ANTISEMITIC STATEMENTS.

Certainly Steve,
Guardian 27th April,
"Even after the prime minister said it was "extraordinary," that she continued to hold the Labour whip, and accused the Labour leader of failing to get to grips with antisemitisim in his party, Corbyn's aides defended Shah, saying the comments were antisemitic but the MP had "shocked herself," and did not mean what she said."
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/apr/27/naz-shah-suspended-labour-party-antisemitism-row

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 21 Aug 16 - 05:52 PM

😂 😂 😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Aug 16 - 02:21 PM

Your last two posts are unconnected in the rational mind, bobad the double agent. 😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 21 Aug 16 - 02:16 PM

Text of Law drafted by Political Committee of Arab League

    Beginning with November 28, 1947, all Jewish citizens of (Name of Arab Country) will be considered as members of the Jewish minority State of Palestine and will have to register with the authorities of the region wherein they reside, giving their names, the exact number of members in their families, their addresses, the names of their banks and the amounts of their deposits in these banks. This formality is to be accomplished within seven days.

    Beginning with (November 28, 1947), bank accounts of Jews will be frozen. These funds will be utilized in part or in full to finance the movement of resistance to Zionist ambitions in Palestine.

    Beginning with (November 28, 1947), only Jews who are subjects of foreign countries will be considered as "neutrals". These will be compelled either to return to their countries, with a minimum of delay, or be considered as Arabs and obliged to accept active service with the Arab army.

    Jews who accept active service in Arab armies or place themselves at the disposal of those armies, will be considered as "Arabs".

    Every Jew whose activities reveal that he is an active Zionist will be considered as a political prisoner and will be interned in places specifically designated for that purpose by police authorities or by the Government. His financial resources, instead of being frozen, will be confiscated.

    Any Jew who will be able to prove that his activities are anti-Zionist will be free to act as he likes, provided that he declares his readiness to join the Arab armies.

    The foregoing (para.6) does not mean that those Jews will not be submitted to paragraphs 1 and 2 of this law.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Aug 16 - 02:08 PM

The only US president who didn't think the settlements are illegal was the twat Raygun, and even he told Israel to knock it off. Of course, Israel's massive Yankee puppet won't actually do anything about it, but at least it knows, like everyone else on the planet except for Keith, bobad and the Bibi brigade, that the settlements are unjust, illegal and a major obstacle to peace.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Aug 16 - 02:06 PM

official Arab statistics

Source, Bubo?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 21 Aug 16 - 02:03 PM

According to official Arab statistics, over 989,000 Jews were forced out of their homes in Arab countries from 1948 until the early 1970's. Some 650,000 resettled in Israel, leaving behind personal property valued today at more than $990 billion. Jewish-owned real-estate left behind in Arab lands has been estimated at 120,000 square kilometers (four times the size of the State of Israel). Valued today at about 15 trillion dollars.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Aug 16 - 01:55 PM

Well, waddaya expect from those rabid antisemites at the BBC, Steve?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Aug 16 - 01:09 PM

Wiki, on the legality of Israeli settlements:

...the consensus view of the international community is that Israeli settlements are illegal and constitute a violation of international law. According to the BBC, every government in the world, except Israel, considers the settlements to be illegal.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Aug 16 - 12:54 PM

There are no illegal settlements

Yeah, right. You taking over as a speech writer for Trump, Bubo? He needs someone who can write better fiction.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Aug 16 - 12:31 PM

And try not to be stupid for a minute or two, bobad. It'll be an uphill struggle for sure, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Aug 16 - 12:29 PM

Give me any quote from any LABOUR OFFICIAL that she was suspended FOR ANTISEMITIC STATEMENTS. That's what you've just said. Not suspected antisemitic statements and not alleged antisemitic statements. So let's be having it. Not the first time you've been asked, either.

Like Ken Livingstone, I found none of her comments to be antisemitic, not even the one about "the Jews are rallying." Her own remarks in the BBC interview were:

"One of the tough conversations I had to have with myself was about, God, am I anti-Semitic?

"And I had to really question my heart of hearts. Yes, I have ignorance, yes everybody has prejudice, sub conscious biases, but does that make me anti-Semitic? And the answer was no, I do not have a hatred of Jewish people."

Her remarks were inflammatory, inexcusable, immature, stupid, mistimed and ignorant. But antisemitism means hating Jews BECAUSE THEY ARE JEWS. That does not include stating what Jews are actually doing, as long as what is being said is true, though she didn't half choose her moment badly. If I say that most Israeli Jews rally round their leaders, that is true but I can think of a million better ways of saying it. But she was speaking as a Muslim at a time when the Israeli regime were perpetrating outrages in Gaza (which you and the rest of your Islamophobic cohort don't accept, of course) against her fellow Muslims. She has backed down, apologised, grown up a bit and she has been reinstated. That is how it is. If you think it's wrong, tough. It's not your party. Take out a civil summons against her for hate speech, which is what real antisemitism is. Go on, piss or get off the pot. You want to big up a flash-in-the-pan incident whilst ignoring the far worse racism and probable criminality on your own side just because you don't like Muslims and will never hear a single word of criticism about the Israeli regime. Now just get over yourself. And the reason we are including Israel is because you and you extremist friends here WANT TO INCLUDE ANY CRITICISM AT ALL OF THE ACTIONS OF THE ISRAELI STATE AS ANTISEMITISM. That's the way the various pro-Israeli factions in the Labour Party and elsewhere want it, and your cheerleaders are the Israeli regime. So you can just drop that particular bit of dishonest bleating as well.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 21 Aug 16 - 12:12 PM

Ask the non-Jews who were kicked off good land in order to create exclusively Jewish settlements

There are no illegal settlements - unless of course one assumes that Jews should not own property or build in those areas because they are Jews. Every current Jewish "settlement" is on land owned by Jews before 1948 or purchased after 1967. Settlements that tried to set up on land that was not Jewish owned have been dismantled. We continue to hear the term "illegal", but "legal and illegal" has to be more that political desires and interests. It has to refer to law. And, frankly, law established during the illegal Jordanian occupation of the area in which jewish property was confiscated and retitied, and current PA regulations that ban sales or ownership of property by Jews is not valid.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Aug 16 - 11:27 AM

Why are you still trying to discuss Israel in a thread about Labour?
You are obsessed!

Her remark was stupid, immature and very unwise. It was not antisemitic.

That is your assertion.
Against that we have the fact that she was suspended from the Party because of her antisemitic statements until she withdrew them and apologised for them.
Also the fact that having been reinstated she acknowledged in a BBC interview that it had been antisemitic, which she said was down to her ignorance of Jewish history.

So Steve, your assertion is contradicted by the action of the Party Exec., and by Shah's own assessment of what she said.

You have failed to make your case.
There is more reason to dismiss your views on Labour antisemitism than Jews and non-Jews who have worked for the Party for most or all of their adult lives and who speak from actual experience and knowledge, unlike you.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Aug 16 - 01:29 PM

Naz Shah made a very stupid comment about ISRAEL (not about JEWS) that was based on the perceived bad behaviour of the ISRAELI REGIME. She did not make a comment about the bad behaviour of the members of the regime ARISING FROM THE FACT THAT THEY ARE JEWS. Her remark was stupid, immature and very unwise. It was not antisemitic. You clearly haven't a clue what antisemitism is. You clearly want to defend the record of successive Israeli regimes no matter how lousy that record has been. That is dishonest and it reveals that you want Israel to be treated far more favourably than anyone else. In fact, you reject all criticism. I have yet to see you accept any criticism of anything perpetrated by the state of Israel. As for democracy in Israel, you've been told before about how Palestinians in Israel are routinely discriminated against: how they are held up without reason for days at road blocks, how school buses won't go through Arab areas forcing children to walk for miles, how unemployment among non-Jews is far higher than among Jews and about how how pay levels among non-Jews are far lower. Ask the non-Jews who were kicked off good land in order to create exclusively Jewish settlements, or the hundreds of non-Jews who have been held in jail for months or years not only without charge but also without even being told why they are being held about your precious democracy. In Israel, democracy stops as soon as you leave the polling station for approximately a quarter of the population. Your deliberate blindness to all this is is a prime example of appalling bigotry.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Aug 16 - 12:32 PM

The terminology I use is "apologists for the Israeli regime."

OK, apologists for the democratically elected government of Israel.

You still have not given any reason to call them that, as opposed to being apologists for any other country, and you still have not explained why their views on antisemitism within Labour should be dismissed because of it.

You have failed to make your case.
There is more reason to dismiss your views on Labour antisemitism than Jews and non-Jews who have worked for the Party for most or all of their adult lives and who speak from actual experience and knowledge, unlike you.
I remind you that you failed to recognise the anisemitism expressed by Naz Shah

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Aug 16 - 11:24 AM

Ah, but Bubu- what about the Jews in Israel and worldwide that oppose the Israeli Government policies in Gaza, the occupied territories, in building settlements and the wall & etc -

Are these Jews therefore "anti-semites"?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 20 Aug 16 - 10:54 AM

I should have specified "regressive leftist non-Jews" as the progressive left recognize who the bad actors in the Middle East are.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Aug 16 - 10:38 AM

PS:Bubo, Jews are not a "race".

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Aug 16 - 10:37 AM

When Jews call out against the policies of the Israeli Government why then do certain folks feel curiously entitled call only non-Jews who
call out against the policies of the Israeli Government anti-semites???

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 20 Aug 16 - 10:29 AM

When Jews call out something as antisemitic, leftist non-Jews feel curiously entitled to tell Jews they're wrong, that they are exaggerating or lying or using it as a decoy tactic – and to then treat them to a long lecture on what anti-Jewish racism really is.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Aug 16 - 09:39 AM

Ah, the bad penny has turned up on cue!   Bobad, old bean, even if every one of those things was a big lie (and none of them are, of course), it STILL wouldn't constitute antisemitism, because we are NOT saying those things were done by Jews BECAUSE THEY ARE JEWS, or because that's what Jews do, or because it's in their blood. Those things were done by devious, power-mad, dishonest, racist politicians. Such people are found all over the world, Christians, Muslims, Hindus, atheists and none of the above. You wouldn't know a lie if one reared up and bit your arse. After all, you lived one for years as an anonymous, sniping coward yet still show no shame in turning up here to say stupid things.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 20 Aug 16 - 08:30 AM

killing hundreds of children in Gaza, carrying out massacres in Lebanon, stealing the best Palestinian land for settlements, building an apartheid wall that cuts Palestinians' farms in half and the Arab citizens of Israel as second-class.

Anyone who perpetuates such despicable lies about Israel in order to demonize her is an anti-Semite.........period, full stop, no ifs, ands or buts about it.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Aug 16 - 07:33 AM

treating the Arab citizens

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Aug 16 - 07:28 AM

The terminology I use is "apologists for the Israeli regime." That does not mean "Jews." That does not mean "people who oppose Hamas." That does not mean "people who defend Israel's right to exist." That does not mean "people who feel sorry for ordinary Israelis whose leaders and allies are imposing insecurity on them." It means people who seek to justify even the worst excesses of the Israeli regime, such as killing hundreds of children in Gaza, carrying out massacres in Lebanon, stealing the best Palestinian land for settlements, building an apartheid wall that cuts Palestinians' farms in half and the Arab citizens of Israel as second-class. On the few occasions I've used the term "Israel apologists" it's because I'm responding directly to equivalent terminology in your posts. I am not going to resort to pedantry every time. Life's too short. Now you know bloody well what I mean and always have, but, if you've forgotten, this post will clear it up. Now stop being so bloody dishonest. As for dismissing people's views on antisemitism, yes I do dismiss people's views that are not predicated on the proper definition, which is very simple: if you attack Jews BECAUSE THEY ARE JEWS, you are antisemitic. I dismiss views predicated on a false brand of antisemitism that says you can't criticise the actions of the Israeli state. I don't care whether you think that's antisemitic just because I don't happen to criticise everybody else in the same way at the same time. That is just childish. The aim of your preferred definition is to prevent criticism of the actions of the Israeli state. That is incredibly dishonest and yes I dismiss it out of hand. Now you don't deserve this explanation, so just clear off, will you.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Aug 16 - 03:59 AM

You liar. I repeat: the term I use is APOLOGISTS FOR THE ISRAELI REGIME.

I do not lie.
You said of them, "Because they are both Israel apologists. What's your problem?"

You still have not produced anything to justify any of those quoted being apologists for the Israeli regime anyway. Sadiq Khan? The entire NEC?

You still have not said why that would mean their views on antisemitism should be dismissed either.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Aug 16 - 02:38 PM

You liar. I repeat: the term I use is APOLOGISTS FOR THE ISRAELI REGIME. Personally, I am an Israel apologist, in the sense that I have no desire to see "Israel wiped off the map" and that I want the ordinary people of Israel, Jews and non-Jews alike, to have the peace, security and prosperity that their leaders and their misguided American allies deny them. I've said this here so many times. So why don't you just sod off with your nasty misrepresentations.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Aug 16 - 12:30 PM

Steve,
So what are YOUR personal experiences of antisemitism in Labour that make you qualified to tell me who's more informed than whom?

Well Steve, you have been a member for a few months, and the people I have been quoting have been working in the Party for most or all of their adult lives.
I do not dismiss people's views because you claim they are Israel apologists, which you refuse to justify, and which is anyway a non sequitur.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Aug 16 - 12:18 PM

Labour Bullying.
Letter in Thursday's Guardian from over a hundred Party workers.
"Intolerable attacks on Labour party staff"
"As former and retired members of Labour party staff, we object in the strongest possible terms to the way in which current party staff are being publicly attacked by some senior members and their supporters. Labour party staff are hard-working, dedicated individuals committed to the party and its objectives. They work long hours and are often required to spend weeks or even months away from home on particular campaigns. Some are on limited-term contracts with little job security. The nature of these jobs means that they are often required to implement unpopular or difficult national decisions in an organisation that is almost entirely voluntary and in which different views and opinions are strongly held.

Despite this, staff remain completely loyal to the party and to their employers, and the least they are entitled to expect is some loyalty and respect in return. To hear members of the Labour party attack their own employees is depressing; to hear talk about "clearing them out" is unacceptable; to hear such statements from the most senior level is intolerable."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Aug 16 - 11:29 AM

If you deplore bullying and intimidation in the Tory party, then let's see you expend as many words on it now as you have on Labour's (still only alleged, and only by apologists for the Israeli regime) antisemitism. Even though the report is a bit of a Tory oil-on-troubled-waters job, makes tough reading, doesn't it? Think I'd rather be in a party containing a few people who open their big gobs before engaging the brain than in a party in which there was sexual intimidation and bullying from an already-known bully boy which was ignored by the top brass and lied about by Shapps. And that's only the bits the Tory report has told us about. Speaks volumes that the lad's parents wanted nothing to do with it. Oh, then there's our racist buffoon at the foreign office, of course. And don't mention those underage gay sex parties...

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Aug 16 - 10:48 AM

an overtly liberal/left commentary outlet "


What you, Professor, fail to understanand is that what passes for much of "the left" in the U.S. is pretty much the equivalent of the more progressive "Rockefeller Republicans" of days of yore.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Aug 16 - 10:06 AM

Steve,
And you don't always quote from the "left-wing press" (who are they, anyway - certainly not the Huffington Post)

My quotes on this have been from Guardian, Labour List, Independent, Daily Mirror and the HP.
"The Huffington Post was launched on May 9, 2005 as an overtly liberal/left commentary outlet "

I deplore bullying and intimidation in Tory Party as well, and note that the person was permanently expelled from the Party, unlike any of the Labour antisemites.

The suicide's father described the report as a whitewash, but the Guardian on Thursday said,
"Read beyond the headlines, and Wednesday's report is quietly damning. "

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Aug 16 - 09:43 AM

Keith probably thinks the Murdoch press is moderately centre-left. 😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Aug 16 - 09:37 AM

the Murdoch press

We've got our own problems with that this side of the pond too, tha knows.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Aug 16 - 08:35 AM

WHAT! A Tory-commissioned report into Tory misbehaviour being described as a whitewash? NEVER! 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

..........Keith.....?   😂😂😂


(Jaysus, I've busted it again. Is the corset shop still open? 😂😂😂)

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Aug 16 - 08:20 AM

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/tatler-tory-bullying-scandal-report-grieving-father-dismisses-findings-as-whitewash/ar-BBvJDui

Hmmm tried again still wouldn't work, try copy and pasting the above

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Aug 16 - 08:05 AM

Oops - I can't get that link to work. Perhaps the Tories have spun it away! 😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Aug 16 - 07:11 AM

Tory Turmoil

I wonder what our usual suspects will have to say about this report

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Aug 16 - 05:37 AM

So what are YOUR personal experiences of antisemitism in Labour that make you qualified to tell me who's more informed than whom? Do you also think that victims should be in charge of prison sentences - after all, judges and juries only hear the stories second-hand, rather like you and me with regard to Labour's alleged antisemitism, as it happens? 😂 And you don't always quote from the "left-wing press" (who are they, anyway - certainly not the Huffington Post). All you bring to these discussions is right-wing bias, which you're perfectly entitled to do of course, and blind pro-Israeli regime bigotry. That's all OK too, but don't do it then deny that you've done it!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Aug 16 - 04:31 AM

Steve,
Keith is a typical right-winger who relishes the Tory press

I am not right wing and always quote from the Left Wing press,like the HP.

I think the opinions of Jewish members on antisemitism within the Party are based on experience of it ands much better better informed than yours, which you are never able to substantiate anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Aug 16 - 09:06 PM

Greg, Keith is a typical right-winger who relishes the Tory press and who hates the Labour Party. Like most of the far right who have been fed this demonise-Labour stuff by the Mail, the Murdoch press and the apologists for the Israeli regime (and hey, Greg, just watch how Keith is going to misquote THAT!), he's been taken in hook, line and sinker by the manipulators of the far right. In fact, he probably thinks he's one of them himself! Still, with a man who will tell you that he's really moderately centre-right and is merely putting Israel's side of the story (which means condemning all criticism of the Israeli regime as antisemitic via a document that was never adopted, whilst at the same time defending mass murder), well what can you do!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Aug 16 - 09:14 AM

Not everyone believes the "cancer of antisemitism" Has been eradicated from The Labour Party<.I>

Not "everyone" believes the earth is round, Profesor.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Aug 16 - 06:09 AM

Quite frankly, and you know it full well, the term "cancer of antisemitism" as applied to Labour is totally inappropriate. You should be ashamed of yourself for choosing that quote, as should the person who said it. In fact, he should be suspended from the party in my opinion. If he disagrees with the enquiry report there are far better ways than that of expressing his view.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Aug 16 - 03:40 AM

Not everyone believes the "cancer of antisemitism" Has been eradicated from The Labour Party

Huffington Post Monday,
"Jewish Labour members who voted overwhelmingly to nominate Owen Smith in the upcoming leadership election were motivated by Jeremy Corbyn's response to allegations of anti-Semitism in the party, a former shadow cabinet minister has said.

Lilian Greenwood blamed the current party leadership for Corbyn mustering just 4% of the vote from Jewish Labour Movement.

The JLM has been a Labour affiliated organisations since 1920 and announced the result of its ballot on who to back for party leader this morning. The group has more than 1,500 members, 58.9% of whom responded to the poll."

"Councillor Joe Goldberg, the JLM's local government officer, also said that Smith's replacement of Corbyn as leader would "eradicate" the "cancer" of anti-Semitism from Labour. "

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/jeremy-corbyn-lilian-greenwood-antisemitism_uk_57b1aeade4b01f97d8f31235

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 07:24 PM

"Your claim that it was typical Labour bullying and intimidation is no better than mine that the whole thing is jumped-up nonsense invented by embittered Blairites."

You mean apart fro the fact that the situation was so bad that the Merseyside Police said that they could not guarantee anybody's safety at CLP meetings and Labour's NEC decided to suspend Wallasey CLP? And it still remains suspended - sound like "jumped-up nonsense" to you?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 01:39 PM

And back to your attempted Wallasey smear (second attempt as my post didn't take). Nobody knows who put the brick through the window. Could have been a pissed Tory for all we know (though there aren't many Tories in Wallasey so maybe you've got me there 😂😂😂). The proceedings at the meeting that caused the trouble are still disputed. Your claim that it was typical Labour bullying and intimidation is no better than mine that the whole thing is jumped-up nonsense invented by embittered Blairites. As neither you nor I was there, why don't we give that one a rest until the facts emerge. Oh, of course, I forgot. Labour always whitewashes everything like that. Not like those spin-free Tories with their underage gay sex parties and their head-office bullying that drives people to suicide. Nah, don't believe a word of it! Canonise the Tories, demonise Labour!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 01:31 PM

Name them in that case. There was, er, Naz Shah, who made her comments years ago, before she was elected, Ken Livingstone, definitely a Labour man slightly before the three-quidders lined up... Come off it, Teribus, the bloody thing blew up almost before the three-quidders got a look-in. Name names if you know any different. Which you don't, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 12:12 PM

"Not one of the alleged antisemitism culprits was a £3 member"

And you know this how Shaw? As your pal Jom would say that statement is unqualified so it is unreliable.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 11:32 AM

Not that things were all that hot before. Shall we chat about Tower Hamlets and Mr Rahman?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 11:31 AM

"Started all the problems?" Not one of the alleged antisemitism culprits was a £3 member. Try to tell the truth for once.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 11:24 AM

Greg F. - 17 Aug 16 - 10:11 AM

Ah that explains a great deal "." - I can see plainly now that you do have tremendous problems with the English language in terms of reading it, writing it and understanding it. So great are your difficulties you don't even understand the things that you yourself have written.

"Well hundreds of thousands of people, including lots of Jews, who knows, not only didn't resign but even moved in the opposite direction." - Shaw

And with that movement came the "new" £3 members from the hard left that started causing all the problems. This has all really just kicked-off since Corbyn, "The Leader", took charge hasn't it?

Status of Wallasey Constituency Labour Party Shaw - found out yet from your pals in Labour's NEC yet?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 10:18 AM

"Another woman revealed her Jewish friends resigned the day he became leader, because they didn't believe it was "safe" for them stay. "

Well hundreds of thousands of people, including lots of Jews, who knows, not only didn't resign but even moved in the opposite direction. As for "feeling safe," how safe was it at the Tory central office when bullying and sexual assault was taking place almost under the noses of Cameron et al? Didn't seem that it was especially safe for the person who committed suicide, did it?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 10:11 AM

that you have to seek clarification from "three year olds"?

So you admit that you ARE a three-ear-old. Thanks for the confirmation.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 10:07 AM

Having so much trouble with the English language Greg F. (Or could I just call you ".") that you have to seek clarification from "three year olds"?

1: "A young Labour member told the Labour leader she would feel more comfortable going to Conservative party conference as a Labour supporter, than going to Labour conference as an Owen Smith supporter."

In this case fear of intimidation and abuse from pro-Corbyn "Momentum" supporters.

2: "Another woman revealed her Jewish friends resigned the day he became leader, because they didn't believe it was "safe" for them stay."

In this fear of abuse from anti-Semitic, Hamas and Hezbollah supporting members of "momentum".

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 10:00 AM

Greg, they have been subject to intimidation and threats.
Google the text supplied by Teribus.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 09:47 AM

they didn't believe it was "safe" for them stay.

"Safe" from WHAT, fer chrissakes???

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 09:45 AM

Apologies all I forgot this one - Labour Party Youth Conference - due to the number of "unpleasant" and "unacceptable incidents" this too is now subject to an NEC Investigation - yer man appears to be doing well with his investigations just a pity the culprits aren't being named, shamed and expelled.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 09:41 AM

"Jeremy Corbyn was this morning confronted by two female Labour members who said they no longer feel "safe" in the party.

A young Labour member told the Labour leader she would feel more comfortable going to Conservative party conference as a Labour supporter, than going to Labour conference as an Owen Smith supporter.

Another woman revealed her Jewish friends resigned the day he became leader, because they didn't believe it was "safe" for them stay.

It came during a heated debate between the Labour leader and his leadership rival Mr Smith, who launched a fresh attack on Mr Corbyn for failing to crack down on anti-Semitic and misogynistic abuse within the Labour Party."

Now who are they "apologists" for Shaw?

Tell me Shaw Has the Wallasey Constituency Labour Party been suspended by Labour's NEC or hasn't it? The answer in case of the usual evasion from Shaw is that yes it has. Why it has been suspended is because of complaints of homophobic abuse and intimidation.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 08:56 AM

Steve,
I did not talk about "Israel apologists"

Yes you did!
You said of them, "Because they are both Israel apologists. What's your problem?"

the EUMC does not exist

The European Parliamentary Working Group on Antisemitism DOES.

the working definition was trashed years ago,

No. It was adopted by The European Parliamentary Working Group on Antisemitism, and can be seen on their website (as you know).

Or did you dig around to find whichever apologists you could for the Israeli regime

No. I never considered Israel to be relevant to a thread about Labour Party!
I quoted many prominent Labour worthies, including Sadiq Khan and the entire NEC who can not be described as apologists for anyone!

Can you find me one who thinks that Labour is riddled with antisemitism

No, and no-one claimed it was.
Just that it had a serious problem with antisemitism, requiring 50 suspensions, two Party inquiries and a Parliamentary inquiry.

we, the NEC, are appalled at thIs rampant Labour antisemitism?

I gave you a quote saying they were appalled by recent incidents of it within the Party.

Or were they appalled, or deeply concerned, that these allegations had arisen

No. The were appalled by recent incidents of antisemitism within the Party.

Or do you think that the NEC were judge, jury and executioner,

Well, they made that judgements that recent incidents of antisemitism within the party were appalling.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 08:24 AM

Do feel free to expand on that puzzling addendum to the discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 07:29 AM

Was it "Labour Worthies" who suspended Wallasey CLP? And that is not the only one is it?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 05:11 AM

"I quoted many Labour worthies appalled by Labour antisemitism."

Did you really now? Or did you dig around to find whichever apologists you could for the Israeli regime (of whom there are many in the Labour Party, unfortunately) who expressed concern at the allegations or who had a crack at individual alleged culprits? Can you find me one who thinks that Labour is riddled with antisemitism in order to justify your new mini-slogan "Labour antisemitism?" Can you give me a quote to the effect that "we, the NEC, are appalled at thIs rampant Labour antisemitism?" Or were they appalled, or deeply concerned, that these allegations had arisen and were determined to investigate them? Or do you think that the NEC were judge, jury and executioner, just like you, even before an enquiry was held?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 04:08 AM

All you did in your 06.10pm post was repeat the same old lies. I did not talk about "Israel apologists" and I do not assert that anyone of whatever persuasion is not entitled to express an opinion. What's more, the EUMC does not exist and the working definition was trashed years ago, points repeatedly made to you. No good keep asking people to address your points when you routinely ignore them when they do.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 03:43 AM

Why? Identify something I have said that is wrong, if you can!
Pick my worst blooper, why don't you?
Good luck with that Greg, or just stick to gratuitous, personal attack as you can manage that.
Any bullying school kid can.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 09:13 PM

Take that nap, Professor, it'll do you good.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 08:29 PM

What you say is rubbish, Professor, and attempting to respond to it, as such, is an excercise in futility

No-one will be convinced by that pathetic excuse Greg.
If you could challenge what I say, you would.
The FACT is that you can't, so you resort to personal attack (which REALLY IS an exercise in futility), and weak and unbelievable excuses such as you have just given.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 08:24 PM

No need to keep digging Rag.
You have buried yourself!

DESIblitz | UK's Award Winning British Asian Web Magazine.
Are they racists Rag?

"Six Asian Women MPs elected in UK"
http://www.desiblitz.com/content/six-asian-women-mps-elected-in-uk

Many were born in UK not Asia, e.g. Maryam Khan, Labour.
It is not racist to describe them as Asian, born in Asia or not.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 08:16 PM

having no answer to what I actually say.

What you say is rubbish, Professor, and attempting to respond to it, as such, is an excercise in futility.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 07:11 PM

From the professor

"Yes she is. You originally claimed it made me racist to describe her as Pakistani"

I don't think I've ever made such a statement.

I don't think I've ever described you as a racist in relation to Alibhai-Brown.


In relation to Sadiq Khan, oh yes, definitely a racist, no question about that.

However keep digging.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 06:51 PM

No need to worry about me Greg, I am just fine thanks.
I notice that you also resort to the personal, having no answer to what I actually say.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 06:33 PM

I think the Professor needs a nap - he's getting cranky & is likely to throw a temper tantrum, or threaten to hold his breath 'til he turns blue.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 06:20 PM

Rag,
I don't give a toss what Alibhai-Brown says she is. She is not part of this

Yes she is. You originally claimed it made me racist to describe her as Pakistani.
How stupid it made you look when I showed that she described herself as Pakistani!!
You are just desperate to smear me because you can not argue against me.

You stated, clearly, unequivocally that Sadiq Khan is a Pakistani, he is not a Pakistani he was born in London.

The only reason you mentioned his supposed race was merely because of his colour, there is no other possible reason to mention it.

There is to a non-racist. It is only YOU RAG who keeps bringing up skin colour, like a racist!
He is a British Pakistani. A Pakistani mayor of Britain's Capital City!
They are both of Pakistani heritage, grew up within Pakistani culture, and are proud of both.

Who are you to deny them that, and why do you keep on about skin colour like a racist?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 06:10 PM

Steve,
That's right, Teribus. But that isn't what Keith said, was it. He simply called him a Pakistani mayor, remember?

Yes, in the context of proving Jim wrong that London is a racist city.
He is a British Pakistani, as is Alibhai-Brown who refers to herself as Pakistani.
Alibhai-Brown describes herself as Pakistani, and she was born in Uganda!
They are both of Pakistani heritage, grew up within Pakistani culture, and are proud of both.
Who are you to deny them that?

The two people you non-randomly plucked out to make some long-lost point or other are indeed the kind of apologists for the Israeli regime

I quoted many Labour worthies appalled by Labour antisemitism.
Sadiq Khan for instance, and the "entire NEC." "Israel apologists?"

You asserted that two were "Israel apologists, but as usual you did not substantiate it.
If they were, why does that debar them from having views on Labour antisemitism, as you also assert.

your discredited wider definition of antisemitism.

You mean the definition provided by the European Parliament Working Group on Antisemitism, which still appears on its website and which has been adopted even beyond EU.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 11:28 AM

I don't give a toss what Alibhai-Brown says she is. She is not part of this. If she wants people to tell people she is from Planet Zog I really don't care.

You stated, clearly, unequivocally that Sadiq Khan is a Pakistani, he is not a Pakistani he was born in London.

By stating, as you did, that the Mayor of London was a Pakistani you were indicating for all to see your innate racism, as you have done so previously.

The only reason you mentioned his supposed race was merely because of his colour, there is no other possible reason to mention it.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 11:21 AM

"Steve, you made two assertions.
That two prominent Labour worthies were "apologists for Israel" and that that debarred them from having any credible view on antisemitism.

Will you for once substantiate your wild assertions, as repeatedly asked."

The two people you non-randomly plucked out to make some long-lost point or other are indeed the kind of apologists for the Israeli regime (note the wording, please, and note how your quote in speech marks is different - a typical piece of dishonesty) that adhere to your discredited wider definition of antisemitism. Not a wild assertion. Bleedin' obvious to all but you. Secondly, nowhere have I said that anyone of any persuasion is debarred from commenting, whether they're Jews, not Jews, Labour, Tory or even you. Finally, once you've decided in that festering and puerile brainbox of yours that my assertions are "wild," well there isn't much point in my trying to counter your decision, is there? Well I just have done, of course. I must be mad. Now off you go and try to think up some more silly games. You're nothing if not bloody entertaining.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 11:06 AM

"..his ethnicity is Asian British Pakistani."

That's right, Teribus. But that isn't what Keith said, was it. He simply called him a Pakistani mayor, remember?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 11:00 AM

Alibhai-Brown describes herself as Pakistani, and she was born in Uganda!
They are both of Pakistani heritage, grew up within Pakistani culture, and are proud of both.

Who are you to deny them that, and why do you keep on about skin colour like a racist?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 10:50 AM

He is NOT Pakistani, can you not understand that someone born in London is NOT Pakistani.

Sheeesh !!

I was going to say stop digging but you are incapable of stopping, so carry on professor it only serves to compound your racist views.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 10:45 AM

Rag,
the only reason he could have come to that conclusion was the colour of the mans skin

Only to someone obsessed with skin colour.
I never considered it.
You alone have mentioned it, and repeatedly.

he describes himself as a LONDONER

He is a Londoner.
We are all many things.
The context was that Jim claimed London was a deeply racist city, so I pointed out that they had just elected a Pakistani Mayor.
He is a British Pakistani, as is Alibhai-Brown who refers to herself as Pakistani.

Now, you posted that failing to recognise a racist statement indicates racism, but if it is an antisemitic statement, "that is a different argument."
Why are you refusing to explain how such double standards are not antisemitic?

Steve, you made two assertions.
That two prominent Labour worthies were "apologists for Israel" and that that debarred them from having any credible view on antisemitism.

Will you for once substantiate your wild assertions, as repeatedly asked.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 10:41 AM

My point Raggy, whether you like it or not, or whether you agree with it or not, is that Sadiq Khan as far as the demographics that describe the population of London go is not listed as a "Londoner" - the population of London are all Londoners FFS - his ethnicity is Asian British Pakistani.

Were something happen to Mayor Khan and the Police had to search for him he would be described as an IC4 Male (IC = Identification Code: 4 = Asian). Officers would not be sent looking for a "Londoner".

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 08:22 AM

And your point is?

The professor said the Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan, was a Pakistani, the only reason he could have come to that conclusion was the colour of the mans skin as Sadiq Khan describes himself as a Londoner.

It was a clear case of racism, judging a man merely by his appearance.

It was racism when he first posted it and it is still racism now. The only difference is he's managed to embroil you into the discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 08:07 AM

Now oddly enough the only people on this forum who would come out with "pink giraffes" & "cherry red blue whales" would be the likes of Jim Carroll and yourself Raggy - after all you have come out with equally idiotic statements.

London Demographics

Now it may come as a great shock to most but the ethnic categories listed are fairly standard throughout the world for demographic surveys in multi-cultural societies and cities and guess what Neither myself or Keith A of Hertford played any part in the creation of those categories. Perhaps Raggy you should write to those who undertake these surveys and tell them that they are "racist".

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 06:47 AM

Colonel Richard Kemp (Fmr Commander of British Armed Forces, Afghanistan) speaks to J-TV's Alan Mendoza about the morality of the IDF, the rising tide of anti-Israel sentiment in the West and his explanations for this phenomenon.

YouTube

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 05:15 AM

Oh my word how original.

As expected you have come to defend to indefensible.

Like I posted yesterday if the professor said that all giraffes were pink and blue whales were cherry red you would blindly support him.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 04:56 AM

If you were running for the office of mayor of London against the son of a billionaire who went to Eton I dare say that touting your Tooting birthplace would be a good start in a city that is normally considered to be a Labour stronghold.

If Sadiq Khan was to be "pigeonholed" by anyone doing a demographic survey of London's population he would be described in the category - Asian British: Pakistani - to describe him thus is not "racist" it is merely accurate ....... just saying like.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 04:00 AM

"Khan is a member of the british Pakistani community, so he is a Pakistani Mayor"

As you can't seem to grasp professor Sadiq Khan is NOT Pakistani, he describes himself as a LONDONER which he has every right to do as that is where he was born, in TOOTING. He describes his wife and children as Londoners.

The only person to my knowledge who says he is Pakistani is yourself. Do you know whether he has even visited Pakistan. (oh, allowing for Teribus, because he is sure to back you up)

To refer to someone as Pakistani when they were born in London is racist, he is NOT Pakistani he is a Londoner.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 03:39 AM

Ah, he's digging again.

Carry On Professor !!!!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 03:04 AM

steve,
And it's fine to call black babies piccaninnies.

No. It is considered racist in USA and has become un-PC here.
Elsewhere it seems to be OK.

Ih ave never defended anyone's racism and I challenge and defy you Steve to show that I have.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 02:58 AM

Rag,
..... "culturally implanted Asians" who be a good one ......... the "Pakistani" mayor would be a good follow up .....

I made no claim about anyone's culture.
I just said that I believed what all those people from that culture were saying.
Khan is a member of the british Pakistani community, so he is a Pakistani Mayor.

No racism in that Rag.

Now, will you explain your double standards for antisemitism and other forms of racism. Why is it "a different argument?"

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 15 Aug 16 - 08:08 PM

I love you too Greg.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Aug 16 - 07:59 PM

Same old BooSpew. Predictable & Boring.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 15 Aug 16 - 07:24 PM

Farage and Netanyahu, two of the biggest racists on the planet

They can't hold a candle to Corbyn though.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 15 Aug 16 - 07:12 PM

There are probably be others if I cared to look, or more importantly, if I thought you were worth the effort.

As it is I don't and you aren't.


For someone who says he's not worth the effort you certainly put an inordinate amount of time and ad hominem posts into him............just sayin'.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Aug 16 - 07:12 PM

And it's fine to call black babies piccaninnies. Don't forget that one, Raggytash. Oh, and his defence of scum such as Farage and Netanyahu, two of the biggest racists on the planet. Always worth a mention.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 Aug 16 - 05:56 PM

Dear professor ............. where to start ......... "culturally implanted Asians" who be a good one ......... the "Pakistani" mayor would be a good follow up ..........



There are probably be others if I cared to look, or more importantly, if I thought you were worth the effort.


As it is I don't and you aren't.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Aug 16 - 05:36 PM

But Greg F. if you can't even answer the questions put to you by three year olds, how on earth do you think you'd cope with adults?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Aug 16 - 04:55 PM

Greg F. has gone a bit quiet hasn't he - maybe he's looking for the Hamas map

Not at all, T-Bird. I'm just tired of playing with three-year-olds. Rather spend my time with adults.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 Aug 16 - 03:59 PM

Cherri, if the professor posted that all giraffes are pink and that blue whales were cherry red you would support him.

It could be that both of you grew up and behaved like adults.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Aug 16 - 12:55 PM

Ah now come along Ragged:

Steve Shaw - 08 Aug 16 - 07:08 PM

"Now let's see. You make an accusation ............. The onus is squarely on your shoulders to prove your claim, not on us to disprove what you say. You started it, so let's see you seeing this through."

Of course you are not going to "see anything through" are you Raggy?

Greg F. has gone a bit quiet hasn't he - maybe he's looking for the Hamas map that shows what they would recognise as the State of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Aug 16 - 12:47 PM

Rag,

The same applies if you can find ONE antisemitic statement from me.

You psted that failing to recognise a racist statement indicates racism, but if it is an antisemitic statement, "that is a different argument."

Such double standards would appear to be antisemitic.
If you meant something different, please explain as I have repeatedly asked you to do.


Furthermore if you can find ONE racist statement from me in all the years I have been on this site I will buy you a pint.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Aug 16 - 12:43 PM

Rag, you posted something that appears to be antisemitic.
If it is not, tell us why.
We are entitled to such an explanation, and will draw our own conclusions if none is forthcoming.

That is not just me, but everyone who read what you posted.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 Aug 16 - 12:43 PM

Furthermore if you can find ONE racist statement from me in all the years I have been on this site I will buy you a pint.

The same applies if you can find ONE antisemitic statement from me.

That should keep you busy.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 Aug 16 - 12:35 PM

You are ENTITLED to fuck all.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Aug 16 - 11:26 AM

Ah so you have read it Greg F., you've obviously just incapable of understanding what it says.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Aug 16 - 11:14 AM

Rag,
remember the person who said that the mayor of London was a Pakistani merely because of his skin colour.

No I don't, because no-one has.
Like Alibhai-Brown he was born into that community.
Had he been white and adopted it would be the same.
No-one mentioned "skin colour" EXCEPT YOU RAG!
You have a racist's obsession with it.

Now, will you PLEASE explain why failing to recognise a racist statement indicates racism, but if it is an antisemitic statement, "that is a different argument."

Such double standard are themselves antisemitic Rag.
We are entitled to an explanation.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Aug 16 - 10:32 AM

Yup, I've read it T-zer. Perhaps you could show ME.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Aug 16 - 10:00 AM

Greg F. - 15 Aug 16 - 09:11 AM

I take it that you haven't read the Hamas Charter then Greg F.

Or perhaps if you believe the "We are fighting for a Two-State solution" bullshit you could show me what Hamas see as the borders of this Two-State solution.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 Aug 16 - 09:26 AM

Only one racist on this thread .............


.... remember the person who said that the mayor of London was a Pakistani merely because of his skin colour.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Aug 16 - 09:11 AM

Hamas' goal is the genocide of Jews

Wrong. AND it doesn't answer the question.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 14 Aug 16 - 09:50 PM

the Irgun weren't terrorists like your favorite nemesis Hamas

Irgun's goal was a Jewish state, Hamas' goal is the genocide of Jews.............try again.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Aug 16 - 09:28 PM

Israel's fight for liberation

So Bubo, the Irgun weren't terrorists like your favorite nemesis Hamas, then?

Interesting. And revealing - right back atcha.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 14 Aug 16 - 09:18 PM

Nine million murdered in the Russian revolution vs. questionably a couple hundred in Israel's fight for liberation - no difference there, eh Greg, just another of your false equivalencies to try and smear the Jews. Keep it up, you give yourself away.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Aug 16 - 08:14 PM

Re the King David Hotel, a warning was sent which was ignored.

Those folks were dead just the same, Bubo.

The other one I know nothing about and can't be arsed to look it up.

Of course you don't and of course you can't! It would contradict your usual line of bullshit, and you can't have that, can you?

Jackass.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 14 Aug 16 - 07:06 PM

Re the King David Hotel, a warning was sent which was ignored. The other one I know nothing about and can't be arsed to look it up.

What I do know is that you and your ilk are big supporters of wars of liberation except when when those fighting for their liberation are Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Aug 16 - 06:48 PM

the Bolshevik thugs who murdered my wife's grandparents

Were they anything like the Irgun thugs that bombed the King David Hotel in Jerusalem where 91 people of various nationalities were killed and who carried out the Deir Yassin massacre where at least 107 Palestinians were killed?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Aug 16 - 06:32 PM

"Back to the hall the Urchin ran;

Took in a darkling nook his post,

And grinn'd, and mutter'd, "Lost! lost! lost!"

Sir Walter Scott, "The Lay of the Last Minstrel" - roughly where Labour is now.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 14 Aug 16 - 05:20 PM

Hmm, shades of the Bolshevik thugs who murdered my wife's grandparents:

A brand of politics alien to this country, defined and delivered by a divisive, aggressive holier-than-thou cadre of hard-Left socialists with no real policies to speak of, no defined social and economic objectives, just a call for the committed to take this journey with them down the Yellow Brick Road.

In the midst of this, something is rotten. You are either with them, or you are labelled as being against them and so excluded, briefed against, often threatened and intimidated.

If you are like me, a Jewish donor to Labour, you are smeared as a Blairite conspirator, plotting to falsely use the accusation of anti-Semitism to damage the Left.

It matters not whether you are Angela Eagle with a brick through a window, Stella Creasy with a mob outside her constituency office, or Labour general secretary Iain McNicol with a letter threatening court action unless he secured victory for Corbyn at an NEC vote.

Corbyn and his leadership team have no respect for others and worse, no respect for the rule of law.

They clearly have no moral compass, and in Corbyn they have a leader who wants to abolish the House of Lords yet is happy to confer and defend the granting of a peerage on Shami Chakrabarti, whose detailed report into anti-Semitism in the Labour Party was anything but independent.

.................................................................................................................................................

Oppose them as a Jewish donor and the riposte from Seumas Milne, Corbyn's mouthpiece, is that you are part of a Blairite, Right-wing 'conspiracy' (the ancient racist rhetoric is that Jews don't act alone, the malevolent Jew always conspires) to destabilise the democratically and legitimately elected leader.




'Why I despise Jeremy Corbyn and his Nazi stormtroopers'   By Michael Foster, Labour Party donor and former parliamentary candidate.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Aug 16 - 03:46 PM

Racism and antisemitism are not "petty" Rag, except to a racist.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 Aug 16 - 01:36 PM

No professor, I will not engage in your puerile pettiness. I could suggest that you grow up


............... fat chance of that.



The moving writes and then moves on.............


But carry on being a racist ..........

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Aug 16 - 11:36 AM

You'd do well to consider this quote.

You'd do well to answer the question put to you, but you can't.


Rag, will you PLEASE explain why failing to recognise a racist statement indicates racism, but if it is an antisemitic statement, "that is a different argument."

Such double standard are themselves antisemitic Rag.
We are entitled to an explanation.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Aug 16 - 08:49 AM

You really have the mentality of a seven year

Overly generous, that.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 Aug 16 - 08:03 AM

You really have the mentality of a seven year old don't you. I don't CARE about winning or losing it's not what it is all about.

"When the one great scorer comes to mark against your name he writes not if you won or lost but how you played the game"

You'd do well to consider this quote.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Aug 16 - 07:22 AM

If you could answer, you would.
Your pathetic excuses for not answering fool no-one.
You lose.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 Aug 16 - 04:27 AM

Not playing your silly little games professor.

Stick to something you do well ............... like being a racist.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Aug 16 - 04:21 AM

"Jim, the real, true reason that you won't justify your description "Pro Israeli activists" in the context of lifelong, Labour members is that you can't."
No Keith - the reason is because I have nothing to say to you Three Stooges - a thug, a dishonest moron and an out-of-control troll.
What's the point?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Aug 16 - 04:15 AM

Steve,
Because they are both Israel apologists. What's your problem?

Repeating an assertion is not the same as justifying it, and calling me silly names does not cut it either.
Can you for once justify your assertion.

Rag,
Will you PLEASE explain why it was not antisemitic for you to say that failing to recognise antisemitism does not make you racist, but failing to recognise any other racism does.

Jim, the real, true reason that you won't justify your description "Pro Israeli activists" in the context of lifelong, Labour members is that you can't.

You and Steve would like to say that their views on antisemitism should be dismissed because they are Jews. You dare not do that so you say their views on antisemitism should be dismissed because they are "Pro-Israeli" or "Israeli apologists."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Aug 16 - 01:28 AM

Jim Carroll - 13 Aug 16 - 07:22 PM

"Not confirming anything"

Well you never have in the past Jom, so why start now. Why change the habits of a lifetime.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 07:22 PM

Not confirming anything for liars anymore Keith
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 06:58 PM

So, our resident Jew haters, in desperation, try a new tactic - smear those who call them out by calling them anti-Semites......doh! Must be another Jewish conspiracy that's making them look stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 06:16 PM

Because they are both Israel apologists. What's your problem? Now why don't you just sod off, you racist and antisemite?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 04:01 PM

Jim,
Could you PLEASE clarify what you mean by "Pro Israeli activists" in the context of lifelong, Labour members?

Steve,
You quoted two Israel apologists

Could you PLEASE explain why you so described a Labour MP and Peer.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 02:07 PM

Great, more BooSpew.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 01:47 PM

One of Labor's remarkable generation of Jewish class warriors – along with the likes of Herschel Lewis Austin, Maurice Edelman and Ian Mikardo – in the 1930s Shinwell was in the vanguard of those fighting fascism. And never known to have let an anti-Semitic slur go unchallenged, in one House of Commons debate he famously slapped a Conservative MP, who'd told him to 'Go back to Poland'.

In the inter-war years the Left was a magnet for Jewish progressives and, post-1945, every Labor government and Shadow Cabinet included a clutch of eminent Jews as members or senior advisers.

From the premierships of Clement Attlee to Gordon Brown – via Harold Wilson, Jim Callaghan and Tony Blair – Jews played key roles in shaping Britain's destiny. And, though Labor had its fair share of closet Antisemites, the least murmur of it was ruthless quashed.

Shamefully, today's leadership is a feeble shadow of its honorable past, the party's ranks now swelled by bigots, whose voguish anti-Zionism has morphed into vicious Jew-bashing.

Many believe the responsibility for this lies with Labor's 'accidental' leader, Jeremy Corbyn, an old-time, ultra-Leftist, fervent supporter of the Palestinian cause, self-proclaimed 'friend' of Hezbollah and Hamas, and associate of Holocaust deniers, like Paul Eisen.

Luciana's battle with UKLabor's Jew-haters

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 12:09 PM

"Yet another multi-coloured spittle-flecked rant from Jom."
You have no intention of changing your behaviour -you still remain the squalid little man you have presented to Mudcat for far too long.
As far as I am concerned, this is finished, and, as far as I am concerned, I hope your infestation of this forum is finished too.
Your behaviour towards humanity in general is contemptible and your behaviour here is unbelievable - you obviously totally lack any self control.
It's flattering of you to suggest I have "pals" - I never thought of them as anybody other than people with a half-decent outlook who I find myself agreeing on most things.
You of course, have your little duo - a venom spitting troll and somebody who is incapable of separating truth form fiction, yet is very quick to accuse other of the same - an admirable Ménage à trois - may god bless all who sail in her
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 12:02 PM

I have been out of the country for a fortnight with almost no Internet access. What strikes me most is that a great deal of "Whither Labour" material has been in the news from court arguments to head to head debates, yet despite constant posts this thread has not progressed at all.

I anticipate a few brickbats being thrown at me but thereafter the same posts just continuing to recur with slightly different insults and phrasing.   It is not a pretty sight.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 11:49 AM

Yet another multi-coloured spittle-flecked rant from Jom.

Good luck with giving me examples of me doing my own country down Jom - I still live in it, where was it you scrambled off to? Miltown Malbay, Co Clare wasn't it?

I deplore what successive self-serving groups of professional politicians and Trades Unionists have done to the country of my birth. Corbyn is an absolute disgrace and is thankfully unelectable - nothing more than a shoddy wrecker, who having spent his time in politics as the darling "rebel" of the left, now finds himself bitterly complaining about those who quite sensibly have rebelled against his leadership, or should I say total lack of it.

Come on Jim just give us the name of one single soldier who suffered summary execution during the First World War - Glad to see that you admitted that no check was carried out with regard to your source of the scurrilous lie that soldiers were subjected to such arbitrary justice as "summary execution" - Didn't happen, not once - Remember the famous words of Steve Shaw, Jom - you claimed that such executions were carried out, provide substantive evidence that they did (Look up what "substantive" and "evidence" mean - to date you've demonstrated that you haven't the foggiest notion on either).

If as you believe that I have never supplied links or sources then it should have been extremely easy for you to counter or disprove points I have made - but you haven't been able to do so once, neither have your pals, now why is that Jom if everything I state is so wrong. You could always provide an example but you'd struggle with that wouldn't you?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 10:20 AM

"You couldn't tell us anything, Regiment or branch of service, l"
You have already been told this.
We were there to record Tommy Kenny's experiences for his family - nothing more.
They graciously allowed us to retain a copy for ourselves.
They have Tommy's service record and they were fully aware of his service history, that was not pert of our brief.
The full interview is retained by us and is archived with our collection in the places it is housed.
Singer, Len Graham was given a copy of it for a War project he was doing - he suggested we do something further with it - not our brief
We have never published it as evidence for anything, I pass on information we were given for the interest of others - it is what we (John Faulkner, Sandra Kerr, grandson,Colin Kenny and I, were told.
That it doesn't fit with your jingoist Empire Loyalism is your problem, not mine.
Tat you choose to denigrate and insult a veteran of World War One is par for your particularly nasty course - your hatred for the ordinary British people and their achievements is well    known and palpable.
The diary extracts are nothing whatever to do with us - I found them on line, cut and pasted them and linked to them.
You want to call the grandson of yet another "lying" World War One veteran, I can't stop you but I can only wonder what kind of scumbag behaves like this towards people who served their country in that shitty, ill-conceived and inhumanely conducted war.
That you choose to do so doesn't surprise me in the least - that appears to be the level at which you operate.
There has to be a point where this gratuitous insulting behaviour - by both of you, is stopped.
Teribus permanently insults and takls down to people who disagree with him, Bobad hurls vituperative accusations of "antisemitism" at anybody who criticises Israel.
Neither provide reliable evidence for their claims or accusations.
Bobad dredges openly Islamophobic and racist sites for his information, and when it is challenged - more hysterical accusations of antisemitism.
Teribus NEVER PROVIDES PROOF TO HIS ARGUMENTS AND NEVER LINKS TO REAL INFORMATION - ALL WE ARE GIVEN IS ARROGANTLY DELIVERED UNQUALIFIED OPINIONS AND ABUSE IF WE DON'T ACCEPT THEM AT FACE VALUE
This behaviour is little short of this site being hacked by an extremist organisation - there has to be a cut-off point.
That these people want to peddle there extremist line - fine, let them conduct themselves in a reasonable manner, put their arguments reasonably and, if people don'tr accept them, move on
THIS TROLLING HAS TO STOP
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 09:23 AM

" we published the material - we would have checked as we always do" - Jim Carroll

"Checked as you always do" Jom?

You couldn't tell us anything, Regiment or branch of service, location and not a single name. Now then Jom if I had witnessed the "summary execution" of one of my friends in the circumstances described:

1: I would most certainly be able to name the person who had been shot.

2: The person who killed him would be dead within seconds of him doing the deed.

What establishment am I defending? What I am doing is exposing scurrilous lies and challenging idiotic "myths" that seek to blacken the names of the servicemen who volunteered and fought for what they obviously believed in.

Now then Jom if you did check, and if you did read that diary (Or did the grandson just read a single entry from it? - If so how could you check it as you usually do, what form did your checks take? - My take on it is that in both cases you checked damn all)

Rallies, threats of physical harm? Look within the Labour Party and to "Momentum" for those tactics today Jom. Ask Angela Eagle why the Police advised her against holding meetings or constituency surgeries in Wallasey - Bullying, intimidation, threats of violence and homophobic insults against Angela Eagle has resulted in the suspension by Labour of the Wallasey Constituency Labour Party, one man in Scotland was arrested for making death threats against her. What has Der Fuehrer done about it Jom?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 08:04 AM

your postings have now taken on the nature of stalking

Ah, ha, ha.

If you disagree with me you're a troll.

If you prove me wrong with facts you're a stalker.

Poor, poor pitiful me.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 07:48 AM

"Your whole story about summary executions is a MYTH - IT NEVER HAPPENED
Prove it"
He we published the material - we would have checked as we always do
You are sill defending establishment shit by calling those who oppose it "Liars" making you the fascist you are.
You link nothing, yo prove nothing - you just continue to make things up and have the arrogance to think people will just believe you
Arguing with you is like having your door kicked in by the Gestapo
Your arrogant bullying is enough to put your arguments where they belong
Go and hold a rally somewhere - I seem to remember the weather is good in Nuremberg this time of year
Go away, you thuggish creep - your postings have now taken on the nature of stalking
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 07:47 AM

Jim,
Exactly Keith

Exactly what?
What do you mean by "Pro Israeli activists?"
We are talking about prominent, lifelong, respected Labour members.

Ireland has not - you introduced it as an excuse for British fascism.
No. There is no excuse for Fascism but there are small groups in all countries including Ireland.

There were far more fascists in the wartime establishment, all influential in their way,

Not in Britain. Fascists were interned during the war.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 07:18 AM

Jim Carroll - 13 Aug 16 - 04:04 AM

1: "Point is though Jom - you believe it."

"Point is - I have no reason not to believe it."

Just as when it comes to allegations of racism, intimidation, misogyny existing within the Labour Party under Corbyn I have every reason to believe it. The difference of course being while your beliefs are based on second hand reports of overheard conversations in pubs with nobody identified and nothing corroborated, mine are based upon the findings of not one but two reports, the numerous recommendations and actions, all backed up by concerns voiced by what appears to be an ever increasing number of named sources from within the Labour Party.

I also have every reason to believe in the shot integrity of the second of those reports mentioned above, and in my belief in there having been a cover-up, whitewash and pay-off. The one carried out by Shami Chakrabarti who went from non-party member, independent human rights lawyer to Labour Peer in just 14 weeks after having been given the job. Where you are prepared to accept unsubstantiated rumour, I am not. I also am not a great believer in coincidences.

2: Your whole story about summary executions is a MYTH - IT NEVER HAPPENED - Not one single instance of it ever having happened and believe me if it had it would have been recorded by someone, it would have been talked about. The allegedly "executed" men would have had friends, those who carried out these alleged "executions" would have been identifiable and every single detail would be etched into the memories of any witness. Every single British Soldier executed during the First World War is named, none were subject to summary execution.

Tell me Jom what happened to your tales about men being shot if they didn't get out of their trenches quickly enough?

Your Tommy Kenny Story - "That story was recorded during a three-day session made by me, John Faulkner and Sandra Kerr in 1969 and is lodged in The British Library, with the rest of our collection."

Ever heard the expression "Shit in - Shit out"? You didn't bother to make even the most rudimentary checks on anything the man told you.

3: The "summary executions" argument came from an item posted on the internet by the grandson of a WW1 veteran; it was based on an extract from his grandfather's diary which claimed that there were summary executions taking place during WW1 carried out by specially assigned groups of military police.
Unlike your refusal to provide backing to your claims, I posted the item and gave the link.
My only claim was that, as a similar incident was used during a serial entitled 'The Village', set during W.W.1., the practice was not isolated to the diary extract.

Yet this veteran could not give a name, was he the one doing the shooting perhaps? You gave the link to what? The story of the grandson and the diary entry? That proves absolutely nothing. The IWM has thousands of diaries written by soldiers and guess what Jom, not one single instance of "summary executions" in the British Army. In the records of the Judge Advocates Department there are no mention of "summary executions". In Regimental Records and histories there are no instances of "Summary Executions" having ever taken place.

Not a single soldier in the British Army was executed in the United Kingdom during the First World Was and just because it was shown on a Television Programme does not constitute evidence that it ever happened in real life.

4: "Wrong Shells" Kitchener built the Army and the munitions supply chain that defeated the Germans, David Lloyd George stepped in to take the credit after Kitchener had done the spade work.

5: "I forgot nothing - I posted the link."

Ah you mean just as Keith A did with the "Wheatcroft debacle" that Shaw is always rabbiting on about?

6: The argument was about that antisemitism among establishment figures during the war

What establishment figures? What positions did they hold? In what way did their anti-Semitism manifest itself? You provided details of the names in the "Red Book" numbering some 250 people, all known to the intelligence and security services, in a population of over 47 million. None of those names were in any position of power or influence. Ever come across the concept of perspective Jom?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 07:18 AM

"- many you have given are from the same source.""
Exactly Keith
My point is that Isral is part of this discussion and Bobad's examples prove that - try to keep up..
"Agreed, but what has that to do with me or this discussion?"
You called me deranged - I gave you an example of your own
Try to keep up.
"You raised the issue of a tiny group within British politics who were pro Nazi."
We are discussing the British Labour party being accused of Antisemitism, which has been expanded to Antisemitism in general
You rant about not discussing Israel on the one hand yet discuss Ireland on the other - one has Israel has reverence to the topic _ Ireland has not - you introduced it as an excuse for British fascism.
I have no objection to discussing anything - you are the one who tries to block discussion - not me.
" of a tiny group within British politics"
There were far more fascists in the wartime establishment, all influential in their way, from monarchs to Newspaper proprietors - that you have been able to prove are in the Labour Party - hasn't stopped your crusade.
Jim Carrol

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 07:17 AM

You keep trying to engage me in an anti-Semitism debate don't you. When will you realise I am not playing ball with that.

Your racism however is clear for all to read, you cannot change the things you have posted can you.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 06:54 AM

jim, what do you mean by, "Every exaple Bobad has given is from Pro Israeli activists - many you have given are from the same source."

"Deranged" is fanatically denying atrocities that have been reported from relable sources and have been made accessible to us via the media - you again

Agreed, but what has that to do with me or this discussion?

what the **** are you doing discussing Ireland

You raised the issue of a tiny group within British politics who were pro Nazi.
I responded that every country had such groups and gave Ireland as an example. Now let us all return to the subject.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 06:48 AM

No Rag.
You either did not read the discussion that led up to my post, or you are just desperately trying to catch me out with something.
The latter I think.

Now what was the racist comment I supposedly made and denied?

You never did explain why failing to recognise a racist comment made you a racist, unless the comment was antisemitic racism because that is "a different argument."
That appears to be antisemitic Rag.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 06:46 AM

"That is just a deranged conspiracy theory."
Every exaple Bobad has given is from Pro Israeli activists - many you have given are from the same source
Doesn't matter anyway - if we believe there is a connection we are entitled to argue that - any attempt to stop this is suppression of free speech - a habt of yours whenever teh arguments get uncomfortable.
"Deranged" is fanatically denying atrocities that have been reported from relable sources and have been made accessible to us via the media - you again
"The FACT is that IRA supported Nazism and hoped for a Nazi victory, but Irish people did not."
You've just been whingeing about discussing Israel - what the **** are you doing discussing Ireland if we can't discuss Israel?
You are insane!!
I'm happy that Ireland came up as it's exposed Bodad's racism towards the Irish.
Will you7 stop trying to stipulate threads - if you do it again , I'll pull up the dozens of examples of your having done so in the past (when I've finished with your racism and serial lying, that is)
You morons never learn.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 06:20 AM

A quick backtrack from the professor. I didn't mean that I meant something else. A bit like posting racist comments and then denying they were racist eh professor.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 05:50 AM

Jim,

Israel is vital to this discussion because it is a widely-held opinion that the accusations of Antisemitism originated from her attempts to block the Boycott of her goods.

No it is not.
That is just a deranged conspiracy theory.
The accusations of antisemitism all came from respected Labour members, not from Mossad secret agents!

Rag,
"The Irish Republicans had no influence on the Irish people"
Classic, absolutely bloody classic.

What do you challenge in that statement?
The FACT is that IRA supported Nazism and hoped for a Nazi victory, but Irish people did not.
Just twenty years after the supposed depredations of the Tans, they flocked in their tens of thousands to fight for Britain.
Those Republicans demonstrably had no influence on the people. Almost none chose to fight for Hitler.

The professor said republicans, not the IRA. The republicans were many and varied and even he should know that.

Silly. The discussion arose from the History Ireland article about IRA support for Nazism and "cleansing" Europe of Jews. The context was clear to evryone except you apparently.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 05:25 AM

I think everybody here must be fed up with your right wing ranting defence of the State by now and your denigrating British workers, and soldiers and attempting to smear anybody who dares to critics them or disagree with you.
If you have any really evidence of anything you claim and can present it in an articulate and half decent manner, do so
If not - I suggest you just retire and lick your wounds
You are a disgrace and you have nothing to contribute to any decent discussion forum
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 05:06 AM

"Really Jom?? Then name one, just one."
Don't be stupid - the names were posted at the front for the men
Tommy's story is in the BM and on our shelves
I suppose we are going to have a repeat performance of your 'Lying British Tommies in order to preserve the good mane of the establishment'

You have two stories from different sources, one recorded and archived, the other put up on line, which you deliberately joined into one to prove me a liar.
You have denied both - calling me a liar and calling the man who posted his grandfather's diary entry.
Both you have dismissed as lies because they don't suit your flag-wagging obsession.
You are now creating a smoke-screen in order to beat a hasty retreat from your stupid machinations.
All Woodenpecker squirming.
you have never really forgiven me for exposing your Kitchener crap - go
screw yourself you fascist Anglophobe -
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 04:21 AM

"If a push came, they were taken out of confinement, placed in the front line and, if they survived, were later executed, as originally decided.

Their names were posted up announcing their execution - end of story"

Really Jom?? Then name one, just one.

The first part of that is forbidden under the terms of the Army Act - a man under punishment cannot bear arms.

Just more Jim Carroll "Made-Up-Shit"

Raggy - taken in the context of the discussion, the Irish Republicans being referred to were the members of the IRA doing in the late 1930s what their forebears had done in 1914 - they colluded with the Germans.

I see that that highly organised and extremely efficient political machine known as the Labour Party is still demonstrating what can be achieved under the direction of "The Leader" (That's "Der Fuehrer" in German isn't it?). Apparently they just cannot get round to deciding who is eligible to vote in their forthcoming "leadership" election. All change the "numpties" who coughed up £25 for the privilege have now all been told they cannot vote after having been told earlier in the week that they could. Were I one of them I'd ask for my money back.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 04:04 AM

"Point is though Jom - you believe it."
Point is - I have no reason not to believe it.
"I see your Tommy Kenny story has changed yet again"
No it has not, my Tommy Kenny story is as it was at the beginning
The point here is yu are (deliberately no doubt) confusing two different arguments abut two different incidents.
Tommy Kenny told us of how men fighting on the front "walked away from the noise", were picked up as deserters, tried, sentenced to death and locked away awaiting execution.
If a push came, they were taken out of confinement, placed in the front line and, if they survived, were later executed, as originally decided.
Their names were posted up announcing their execution - end of story
Nothing to do with summary executions whatever.
That story was recorded during a three-day session made by me, John Faulkner and Sandra Kerr in 1969 and is lodged in The British Library, with the rest of our collection.
The "summary executions" argument came from an item posted on the internet by the grandson of a WW1 veteran; it was based on an extract from his grandfather's diary which claimed that there were summary executions taking place during WW1 carried out by specially assigned groups of military police.
Unlike your refusal to provide backing to your claims, I posted the item and gave the link.
My only claim was that, as a similar incident was used during a serial entitled 'The Village', set during W.W.1., the practice was not isolated to the diary extract.
You, of course, described both of these incidents as made up by me (as you do) and appewar not to have deliberately combined them into one to once again discredit the "lying soldiers" who fought in WW1, in order to defend 'Wrong-Shells' Kitchener and his murderous cronies.
"You forgot the bit about the massive amount of information and intelligence being gathered by British Intelligence via ENIGMAW
I forgot nothing - I posted the link.
The argument was about that antisemitism among establishment figures during the war - not the actual ignorance and understandable disbelief that existed at the time.
What all those articles show was the ambivalence shown towards the Jewish refugees by the authorities at the time and the fact that it remains a bone of contention among Jews up to today.
I've argued the same about the Catholic Church and 'Hitler's Pope' who traded Jewish lives for Catholic ones in Italy.
I don't 'make up' anything - I put them up because the ring true - you never give any documented background to any of your claims.
You have never been able to give a false posting I have made or a changed story, unless it was changed on the basis of fresh information supplied during the discussion - not likely with you pair as you don't do that sort of thing.
Now - I suggest you go and check exactly what I have written and if you find any anomolies, you bring them back with links, so I can check.
In the meantime - given the postings on the well-established antisemitism within the ranks of the British 'Great and Good' how about explaining why the 'whingeing Yids' story is in any way implausible and why you are making such a strenuous effort to defend British Fascism.
Then, when you have a few minutes, you might let us have that information on the "serious problem of antisemitism" in the Labour Party - what it is, who are the culprits - where we vcan go to find all about it from the now-leaked' "suppressed report".
Take your time - I've got all day.
"Anglophile" - someone wo hates the British people, like describing them lazy scroungers and spongers - you can throw in describing British industry as "crap" and agreeing to its destruction!!
The British people are great - the people who appoint racists to high office and the scum who support them are the problem.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 04:03 AM

The professor said republicans, not the IRA. The republicans were many and varied and even he should know that.

You can dissemble and prevaricate as much as you wish, as is your want, in your vain attempts to defend the indefensible.

I will remind you of what he typed because it is brilliant

"The Irish Republicans had no influence on the Irish people"

Classic.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 02:30 AM

Jim Carroll - 12 Aug 16 - 07:43 PM

"It was an oberheard conversion if you read what was written.
I also said it might have been aaan apocryphal story,"

Point is though Jom - you believe it.

But there again you are prone to believing fairy-stories especially if they are Anglophobic in nature. "Raised on songs and stories" eh? I prefer logical, reasoned and substantiated fact and actual history.

I see your Tommy Kenny story has changed yet again, now you got the myth about summary executions of British soldiers in their trenches by special squads of military policemen from "reading" his diaries, before you heard them directly from the man himself while you were recording him relate his experiences.

Jim Carroll - 12 Aug 16 - 08:10 PM - A couple of points about this contribution of yours Jom:

1: How exactly was Great Britain going to go about saving the Jews of Europe in 1943?

2: Your "cut-n-paste" why did you not put that in the context it was presented in the article you linked to? You forgot the bit about the massive amount of information and intelligence being gathered by British Intelligence via ENIGMA - "In fact, from 1942 on there were no references in the SS and Police decrypts to gassing. Underscoring a seeming disbelief in the reports, mention of German concentration camps in any connection became increasingly scant as the war progressed."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 01:52 AM

Well Raggy think what you like, but as far as debate goes, on any thread where you have attempted to challenge what I have stated this "uneducated" man has run circles round you time and time again.

Raggytash - 12 Aug 16 - 04:56 PM - example of your deliberate tactic of wilfully misunderstanding what has been said or meant. By Irish Republicans Keith A was obviously referring to the militant IRA membership. Now Raggy as you appear to put your opinions forward and present yourself as a keen "expert" who is knowledgeable on all matters related to Irish History, perhaps you can tell us all when it was that being a member of the IRA was illegal in Ireland and then tell us when it became an offence in the United Kingdom (The date for the latter will astonish you). Eamon de Valera was one of the prime movers when it came to "creating" the IRA yet in the 1930s he executed them, interned them without trial, and on the occasions were IRA members were tried they were tried before non-Jury courts. Militant Irish Republicans had very little influence in Ireland in the run up to, and during, the Second World War because the Irish Government of the time deliberately and rigourously suppressed them as their activities if left unchecked could have compromised Irish neutrality and dragged Ireland into the war and any prospect of that absolutely terrified de Valera.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 16 - 08:10 PM

"Eleanor Rathbone
Feminist Eleanor Rathbone, elected to parliament as an independent MP in 1929, had long campaigned against injustice. During the 1930s she was one of very few MPs, along with Churchill, who spoke out against the antisemitic policies of the Nazis. She was also violently against appeasement.
During the war, as news of the Holocaust was revealed, Rathbone demanded that the British government take action. During 1943, in answer to a lack of response from the British government she set up 'The National Committee for the Rescue from Nazi Terror'. Despite the organisation's campaigns the government refused to act to save the Jews of Europe.."
http://www.theholocaustexplained.org/ks4/how-did-the-world-respond/how-did-britain-respond/did-britain-do-enough-to-help-the-jews/#.V65g4fkrLIV

"A "massively-detailed" but "little read" study of Britain's wartime intelligence published in 1981, British Intelligence in the Second World War, strongly bolsters the notion that the British did not associate what appeared to be random shootings of Jews with a policy of mass murder. In fact, from 1942 on there were no references in the SS and Police decrypts to gassing. Underscoring a seeming disbelief in the reports, mention of German concentration camps in any connection became increasingly scant as the war progressed. The British did, however, "carefully log" the return of prisoners -- presumably from work details -- to Auschwitz, Buchenwald, Dachau and seven other camps.22"
A logic of disbelief

Reluctance to accept Holocaust refugees
Thanks for the opportunity to put this up, by the way
Do you want any more?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 16 - 07:43 PM

" It grew from "one Tory Minister" to "some Tory politicians""
It was an oberheard conversion if you read what was written.
I also said it might have been aaan apocryphal story, but the existent of an active group of Fascists within the upper echelons of the British establishment alongside the fact that the story was common throughout various parts of Britain among people who were living at the time made it quite likely it was true - a far cry from your "it must be true" "fellers in a pub".
I have no idea of the circumstances - it was a common from people who were around
I am fascinated by the effort you are putting into defending State fascism - but not in the least surprised.   
"In the Second World War, Britain was not willing to attempt to rescue the Jews of Europe in any meaningful way. It was not only imperial Realpolitikthat made the British close the gates of Palestine. We know that officials in the Colonial and Foreign offices and people in the administration in Palestine were far from immune to antisemitic sentiment while supporting an Arab state after the 1939 White Paper.
"During the war the British government was obsessed by the fear that their fight against Hitler could be construed as a war on behalf of the Jews. To avoid 'fighting a Jewish war' became a kind of alibi for the British authorities to do almost nothing for the Jews. Britain's solemn commitment to create a Jewish National Home in Palestine was in fact betrayed in the hour of greatest need for European Jewry. This is a serious stain on the British record, which until then had many positive sides."
Jerusalem Centre for Public Affairs
You really are totally unaware of the picture of
thea right-wing moron you are painting of yourself - which makes me delighted to have implicated both of you in all this.
Any word on Labour Party Antisemitism yet (rhetorical question again)
Goosestep on
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Aug 16 - 04:56 PM

From the professor:

"The Irish Republicans had no influence on the Irish people"

Classic, absolutely bloody classic.

Well worth remembering that wonderful contribution ! !

Well done professor you keep coming up with them ! ! !

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Aug 16 - 04:51 PM

I realise that you are not an educated man Teri but I would have supposed even someone of your limited intelligence could perceive what an oxymoron is when you saw one.

I, perhaps, am being a little generous in giving you the credence to understanding what an oxymoron actually is.

Ah well, that's the problem of dealing with the such people.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Aug 16 - 04:04 PM

You originally stated,

"When the news of the extermination of the Jews reached Britain one Tory Minister described it "the invention of whingeing Yids"."

Change 1: It grew from "one Tory Minister" to "some Tory politicians"

Change 2: That you were told this in three separate cities

Yet out of all this gabbing about anti-semitic Tory Ministers there are no direct quotes and nobody can identify the source of this alleged comment.

The population of the United Kingdom in 1939 was ~47 million and so far you have the Red Book crowd of ~250 people who had prior to the commencement of hostilities had voiced support for Hitler. Lord Rothermere the newspaper owner you keep harping on about died in 1940 and handed over the newspaper to his son in 1932.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 16 - 01:20 PM

"Jim, there were Fascist supporters in every country."
And I have no doubt you would defend them all if you were called upon to do so
Wonder how many moronic defence is that Keith - he did it sir, so it must be ok if I do it
Don't be a prick all your life.
"The Irish Republicans had no influence on the Irish people"
Sorry - what planet are we on now?
Who on earth suggested they did - forgotten your meds again?
"Those few Tories had no influence here."
So - they would have done if Germany had won the war - as it possibly could have.
This argument has no place here
You trivialised the persecution, later to turn into extermination, of the Jewish People by comparing offensive Antisemitism to the theme song of a sit-com - you apparently don't rate such stuff as important - which I already had guessed.
You lied about having done so - fine again - it's what we've come to expect from you.
World War Two is extremely relevent, for it provides us with a perfect example of the consequence of your 'Dad's Army' trivialisation.
Israel is vital to this discussion because it is a widely-held opinion that the accusations of Antisemitism originated from her attempts to block the Boycott of her goods.
I do hope you're not going to drift into your "Thread-drift" mode again - you've been warned about that on numerous occasions "
This really would never have happened if you hadn't called somebody a liar and a racist.
You are both, and if you do it again I'll dredge up some more of your lies and racism.
Now why not bite the bullet and put your mask back on and pretend it awas all a bad dream!!
You are an incredibly stupid little man to provoke these incidents
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Aug 16 - 12:52 PM

Jim, there were Fascist supporters in every country.
The Irish Republicans had no influence on the Irish people. Very few fought for Hitler but tens of thousands crossed to Britain and joined up.
Those few Tories had no influence here. The government chose to go to war against Hitler and the people supported them.

Now, we were discussing Labour's problems until you dredged up WW2 having already dredged up Israel and much else as you always do when losing an argument.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 16 - 12:42 PM

" well it must have been three pubs if the latest version of your story is to be believed -"
are you actually going to prove I have in any way altered what I originally said or do you intend to continue to display your inferiority by lying in your teeth?
Just curious
I ask again, why are you so keen to disprove this story (and humiliate yourself at the same time) when the existence of pro - Nazis in Westminster is proven fact - is the 'good name' of a couple of establishment fascists really worth all the puff and bluster.
"But like the scurrilous story of the summary executions your little class-warrior mentality"
You were directly linked to that particular "scurrilous little story" - bur as always, you know better.
It came from a diary entry of one of those "lying" Tommies and was put up by his grandson.
Couldn't have been true - didn't fit in your claim of all those magnificent leaders (like 'Wrong-Shell' Kitchener) who sent a generation of young men to their deaths.
Your inferiority - like Pinocchio's nose, continues to grow each time you post.
You've moved on from being a pompous blow-hard to joining the other pair of trolls under their bridge
Your 'arguments' are little more than vituperative hate mail now - but please continue to "huff and to puff' and see what house you can blow down between you.
BUT PLEASE FEEL FREE TO KEEP IT UP
How about that evidence of Labour antisemitism - you know, numbers and examples - any joy yet?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Aug 16 - 12:24 PM

"So there you go - the last "blatant, organized anti-Semitic incident in modern Irish history" took place under British rule."

And the 1904 Limerick Pogram, was organised and fomented by Fr John Creagh and his parishioners, NOTHING whatsoever to do with British Rule, more to do with mob rule under the direction of the Church. The RIC did their utmost to protect lives and property.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Aug 16 - 11:57 AM

"I have never said it "must be true" - says Jom

Ah Jom, so are you saying that somebody (A bloke in a Pub - well it must have been three pubs if the latest version of your story is to be believed - three different blokes? Or have you got a "Stalker"?) told you the tale and that you do not necessarily believe it? In which case why mention it at all if you think it false? Passing on information you know, or believe, to be false - isn't that lying?

But like the scurrilous story of the summary executions your little class-warrior mentality and rabid anglophobia jumped at the lie and you swallowed it "hook-line-and-sinker" just like you swallowed this fable about "your" Tory Minister (The one nobody could name), that then changed to Tory Politicians (Oddly enough none of them could be named or identified either).

Raggytash - 12 Aug 16 - 10:46 AM

Good heavens Raggy, being "picky" again, your trouble is that you have no sense of scope and absolutely no imagination at all. Do you really mean to tell me that under no circumstances at all could it be possible for the situation described to ever happen? (I'll give you a hint Raggy - it was how the British gained their Empire)

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 16 - 11:42 AM

For your information - ftom the
From the TIMES of ISRAEL
"The Limerick community dissipated after the so-called Limerick Pogrom in 1904, essentially an anti-Jewish economic boycott rather than a physical attack. It was the only blatant, organized anti-Semitic incident in modern Irish history."
So there you go - the last "blatant, organized anti-Semitic incident in modern Irish history" took place under British rule.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 16 - 11:30 AM

How on earth does the IRA's attitude excuse your lying antisemitic behaviour here - who the **** supports the IRA?
Do you really believe everybody who lives in Ireland is an IRA supporter?
Bet you have every bit as much evidence as you have for your "brainwashed Irish children" claim.
"The Irish as Nazi supporters and haters of Jews."
Anti-Irish as wel as Antisemitic my little kapo friend
ice to see your loyalty in joining up with somebody who trivialises the Holocaust though - that's real dedication to the cause!!
Bottom-of-the-barrel time folks - all else has run into a blank wall.
For your info - in general, Ireland is one of the mostw welcome countries towards strangers that I've ever been in - beats London's record hands down.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Aug 16 - 10:46 AM

"putting Irish people out of work but also exploiting those that they employed"

So which was it, putting people out of work or employing them.


Bit of an oxymoron that not surprisingly.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 12 Aug 16 - 10:08 AM

The Irish as Nazi supporters and haters of Jews.........nah!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Aug 16 - 10:02 AM

Oh dear god not "The Professor And Ireland Show" repeated YET AGAIN?

Will no one free us from this turbulent jackass?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Aug 16 - 09:57 AM

War News, the IRA's main publication, became increasingly pro-Nazi in tone, even claiming active IRA involvement in the German bombing of British cities. But more chillingly it began to ape anti-Semitic arguments. Satisfaction was expressed that the 'cleansing fire' of the German armies was driving the Jews from Europe. British war minister Hore Belisha was described as a 'wealthy Jew' only interested in 'profits'. War News condemned the arrival in Ireland of 'so-called Jewish refugees', along with unspecified numbers of 'Albanian, Abyssinian, Mongolian [and] Tartars'. These new arrivals were not only supposedly putting Irish people out of work but also exploiting those that they employed. Belfast was said to be increasingly in the 'hands of international Jewry' because of this influx. 'The Jews', War News warned, were 'like the English, when they are strong they bully and rule.' In Dublin de Valera's government was also dominated by 'Jews and Freemasons' who were becoming the 'new owners of Ireland'. Fianna Fáil TD Robert Briscoe was singled out for attack.
http://www.historyireland.com/20th-century-contemporary-history/oh-heres-to-adolph-hitler-the-ira-and-the-nazis/

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Aug 16 - 09:52 AM

Jim, here is another silly antisemitic song for you, as you consider them historically relevant.
It was sung by Irish Republicans during WW2.

In an article in History Ireland, Brian Hanley of Queen's University quotes a poetic tribute to Hitler from the Sinn Fein publication War News.
'Oh here's to Adolf Hitler,

Who made the Britons squeal,

Sure before the fight is ended
They will dance an Irish reel.'

As Hanley notes, in July 1940 the IRA leadership issued a statement outlining its position on the war. The statement made it clear that if "German forces should land in Ireland, they will land. . . as friends and liberators of the Irish people".

Apologists for the republican pro-Nazi line suggest that they were simply following a time-honoured strategy of "England's difficulty being Ireland's opportunity".
But it is clear that some of the republicans embraced Nazi ideology as well.

The Third Reich was praised as the "energising force" of European politics and the "guardian" of national freedom.

War News condemned the arrival in Ireland of "so-called Jewish refugees". "The Jews," the paper warned, were "like the English, when they are strong they bully and rule."
http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/jig-heil-the-freeborn-irish-who-saluted-the-fhrer-26631832.html

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 16 - 09:02 AM

Meant to ask yu.
What aspect of your charming personality makes you anything other than inferior
'Bout time you got a grip, don't you think?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 16 - 08:21 AM

"Superiors Jom? "
You - and I was referring to everybody - your behaviour makes you inferior to everybody here with the exception of your little clique - with them, neck and neck, I'd say.
"Are you insane"
Nope - but you are incredibly stupid to pointedly ignore what I said in publica and then blatantly misrepresent it,
I said it was a story I heard from a young age which was repeated to be at varios stages of my life in three cities in Britain -
I have never said it "must be true" - another spectacular display of your dishonesty.
I said that given the fact that it is a widespread one and given the fact that there is plenty of evidence that the Nazis had support from the upper echelons in wartime Britain, it was quite likely - no more.
I asked you why you dismiss it out of hand - you prefer to lie and bullshit rather than answer.
Politicians, members of The House of Lords, sections of Royalty, press Barons, industrialists.... all expressed support for the Nazis - would you like me to re-present Lord Rothermere's glowing praise of Hitler and his actions so you can ignore them all over again?
No - thought not.
Your stupidity and ongoing public dishonesty underlines just where you stand in all this - certainly not the brightest button on the steward's uniform.
Are people singing Antisemitic songs today - no idea - you seenm to move in those circles - not me.
Both inquiries into the Labour Party came to nothing - nothing was found - those who made the c charges in the first place now have leaked reports - no details, no numbers - nothing.
It would have been irresponsible to ignore those accusations in the first place - that's why enquiries were held.
he Tory Party ha been accused of Islamophobia - nothing - hardly surprising from a party that appoints an unqualified braindead who publicly spouts racism as FOREIGN SECRETARY
" Just because you say so means absolutely nothing"
You have just been pesented with examples of it, so your denials mean absolutely nothing
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Aug 16 - 08:12 AM

Jim,
"That you tried to pass it off as a genuine quote "
You are lying again Keith - I told exactly how I came across it and have nver altered that

Not true Jim.
You originally stated,
"When the news of the extermination of the Jews reached Britain one Tory Minister described it "the invention of whingeing Yids"."

no reference to you haveing been told that by some bloke.
Just a statement of fact that was no such thing.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Aug 16 - 07:57 AM

Raggytash - 12 Aug 16 - 07:45 AM

"Care to tell us just what the Conservative or UKip Parties have done within their own parties."

And whoever it is that you want to respond to that question would be able to answer that authoritatively how? Or are you just preparing the ground for another of your "fisking" expeditions.

Have the Conservative Party or UKIP had people resign due to concerns over the safety of members participation in meetings and rallies?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Aug 16 - 07:56 AM

Steve,
I have quoted a number of high profile Labour members, Jews and non-Jews, who are unhappy about Labour antisemitism and Chakrabarti.
You dismissed two ( and Jim several more) because they were "Israel apologists" but you seem unable to justify that claim.

I think that the views of Jews on antisemitism should always be taken seriously, and I am not aware of any who disgree with those referred to.

Clearly, you can't either!

Try looking back at his Wheatcroft debacle,

Yes please! You falsely accused me of misquoting.

or his deliberate misquotes and partial quotes in this thread,

No examples of which you will produce because it is bollocks.

or his lies about the EUMC working document.

Lies? I just quoted it and linked to it.
Just google, "The European Parliament Working Group on Antisemitism."
You will see that it still stands and as you have been shown their definitions of antisemitism have been accepted far beyond EU.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Aug 16 - 07:45 AM

Care to tell us just what the Conservative or UKip Parties have done within their own parties.










Wait for denial that such things happen within those two bodies.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Aug 16 - 07:45 AM

Steve Shaw - 12 Aug 16 - 04:54 AM

"Teribus old chum, Keith's dishonesty has been revealed many times."

No it has not. Just because you say so means absolutely nothing

"Try looking back at his Wheatcroft debacle"

The "Wheatcroft debacle" as you term it can be cleared up in your next post.

Cut and Paste Keith A of Hertford's first reference to Wheatcroft and his article. Then point out what he got wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Aug 16 - 07:30 AM

Superiors Jom?

"A story I heard from somebody" - "Somebody told me" - So it must be true - Are you insane??? - Do you actually EVER check anything?

It was the same with your "summary execution" bullshit, where as holes were blown in your little myth you changed your story, digging yourself in deeper with every change and twist. You couldn't give any detail in that case and you can't give any now.

There is not a single fact that either myself, Keith A or bobad has offered up that you can dispute.

Tell me Jom, as you are emphasising the importance of obscenely anti-Semitic songs, which group in what political party are singing that song's modern day equivalent? As you will most definitely not address this point, I will provide the answers - the group are the hard-left in Momentum and they are all paid up members of the Labour Party - evidence of this? It was just one of the instances that prompted the resignation of Alex Chalmers and caused Labour's NEC to launch her investigation into anti-Semitism within the OULC, findings from that Inquiry led to an additional inquiry with a much wider remit and Shami Chakrabarti was charged with leading that second Inquiry - Had there been "no problem" as you suggest, none of that would ever have happened.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 12 Aug 16 - 07:29 AM

"Israel apologists,"

There's nothing to apologize for a country defending it's citizens against those who would annihilate them, unless it's a Jewish country it seems.

As the old saying goes: "The Germans will never forgive the Jews for Auschwitz."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 16 - 05:57 AM

"That you tried to pass it off as a genuine quote "
You are lying again Keith - I told exactly how I came across it and have nver altered that
I said it was something I had been told when I was young.
The facts of British Fascism make it not only possible but quite likely"
Despite the war, Antisemitism was still rife in Britain - things began to change when news of the Holocaust was accepted.
"believe that except some bloke in a pub told you!"
Lying agaon - it was a story current in my family, later confirmed when I moved to Manchester, and again in London
Whay are you defending this Antisemitism Keith?
The fact of the story is only part of the argument anyway
YOU CAOMPARED THAT OBSCENELY ANTISEMITIC SONNG TO THE THEME SONG OF DAD'S ARMY - WHICH, FOR ME, CONFIRMS YOUR OWN ATTITUDE TOWARDS ANTISEMITISM
You lied then, and you continue to lie - show where I said I heard this story in a pub - you are really the pits
Why did you lie and deny you ever said it - you even claimed I made it up.
not true. Produce a quote why don't you?!
"Because I made no such claim Jim."
You have constantly first denied making your obscenely racist statement then reverting to your fictional "prominent people" which are invented anyway, so , lies in themselves.
You have also claimd to have produced their statements implicating the entire Pakistani population - another string of lies.
You never have and have persistently refused to produce any such people
Never call anybody on this forum a liar again - not with your track record.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Aug 16 - 04:54 AM

Well I have a big surprise for you, Keith. With very few exceptions I haven't a CLUE who in Labour is a Jew or who isn't a Jew. You have deliberately singled out two Jews who are against Chakrabarti, so that when anyone here dares to disagree with them you can do your big antisemitism thing. Well singling out Jews in order to make them targets like that is antisemitism. You are one of the two worst antisemites on this forum. And,Teribus old chum, Keith's dishonesty has been revealed many times. Try looking back at his Wheatcroft debacle, or his deliberate misquotes and partial quotes in this thread, or his lies about the EUMC working document.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Aug 16 - 04:46 AM

Jim,
"Which is how I first herd it - the fact that I was unable to trace it was immaterial"
Which is true - what's your point?

That you tried to pass it off as a genuine quote when you had no reason to believe that except some bloke in a pub told you!
Even you are not that gullible Jim.
I doubt there was any such bloke. You made it all up, as you so often do.

"You were unable to find any such report because it was never reported."
Fuckof andf stop calling me a liar - how do you know it wasn't reported?

Because if such an outrageous statement from a politician had really been reported, there would be many references to it.
The fact there are none proves it never happened.

Keith is an inveterate liar - get him to explain why he lied about the Antisemitic Song argument being "made up"

I have never said it was made up, so that is, erm...., a lie Jim.

Or maybe you can get him to explain why he had denied his "Pakistani implant" claim

Because I made no such claim Jim.
I said I believed it because prominent people from within the community were saying that it came from the culture.
I admitted knowing nothing about that and thus unable to form an opinion or make any claim about it.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Aug 16 - 04:30 AM

Steve,

You quoted two Israel apologists because they were Jews. You pinned that on them deliberately in an attempt to derail the conversation. Well I could have made your point for you by naming Israel apologists who are not Jews. How many do you want me to name?

I quoted them because they were both Labour MPs (one now a peer).
Their views count even if they are Jews as well.
Their views on antisemitism would still count even if they were "Israel apologists," an accusation that you can not justify anyway.

How many Labour Jews can you name who think Chakrabarti was fair?
My guess in none, but over to you.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 16 - 04:20 AM

Why do you always talk down to your superiors?
Why do you always sound like a pompous Victorian schoolteacher?
Why do you never say anything of importance?
Why do you always make claims without evidence and refuse to supply it when requested?
Why do you strut and bully instead of putting your arguments as if you believed them yourself instead of hoping to bully them across.
Why do you act as minder to Keith as if he was a mental deficient on a day out (rhetorical question)
Keith is an inveterate liar - get him to explain why he lied about the Antisemitic Song argument being "made up"
Or maybe you can get him to explain why he had denied his "Pakistani implant" claim about a dozen times, each time, when being presented with it, reverting to another lie, "I only said it because somebody told me it was true
You want proof of your bullying, pomposity and bullshit - happy to oblige
On the other hand, if you want to prove that the Labour Party is Antisemitic and what form that Antisemitism has been displayed.
Otherwise, I agree entirely with Mac - you have failed to substantiate your claims - about anything, rather, you have presented us with a spectacular display of hypocrisy, dishonesty and infantile belligerence.
Unless you have any evidence for your arguments, it is time this thread was switched off - it's only purpose it to allow you to humiliate yourselves even further - don't think that's possible, do you?.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Aug 16 - 02:09 AM

Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 11 Aug 16 - 06:10 PM

"Yes Keith. Keith the archetypal liar, Keith the archetypal antisemite. You are a disgrace to this forum."

The only problems you have with that statement there Shaw is that having been repeatedly asked throughout all the threads where you and your pals have been hunting and mobbing this particular member, to provide examples and instances of him being a "liar", etc, etc. You have never once been able to come up with one single example. As far as I am aware not once has Keith A been censured for his behaviour on this forum, whereas you and your pals have been publicly on numerous occasions - it is you who are the disgrace.

Now in the light of your remarks quoted above may I remind you of something else you said not that long ago:

Steve Shaw - 08 Aug 16 - 07:08 PM

"Now let's see. You make an accusation ............. The onus is squarely on your shoulders to prove your claim, not on us to disprove what you say. You started it, so let's see you seeing this through."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Aug 16 - 08:02 PM

More like time that Bubo was switched off.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Aug 16 - 07:09 PM

Isn't it time this thread was switched off?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Aug 16 - 07:05 PM

Bubo: How many times have you posted absolute hateful bigoted bullshit?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 11 Aug 16 - 06:36 PM

You are a disgrace to this forum.

How many times has Keith been threatened with suspension?

How many times has Shaw been threatened with suspension?

QED

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Aug 16 - 06:10 PM

Yes Keith. Keith the archetypal liar, Keith the archetypal antisemite. You are a disgrace to this forum.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Aug 16 - 06:00 PM

Yep, Gaza sure looks like the world's largest open air prison

Absolutely, Bubo! Thanks for finally admitting it.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 16 - 05:23 PM

I warn you Keith - if you ever call me a liar again I will do my best to have you removed from this Forum
You have been caught out over and over again lying and distorting _ I never have.
I don't lie - you really don't have to when you are arguing with no-nothing morons
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 11 Aug 16 - 05:16 PM

Yep, Gaza sure looks like the world's largest open air prison.........lol, lol, lol!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Aug 16 - 05:11 PM

Hamas produced video of Gaza - the hashtag reads thank you Hamas:

And that has to do with the actual conditions the poor bastards live under courtesy of the Israeli Government HOW exactly?

Oh, sorry, my bad - forgot no facts need apply in Bubo Land..

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 16 - 05:05 PM

"Which is how I first herd it - the fact that I was unable to trace it was immaterial"
Which is true - what's your point?
"It is material that no-one ever said it and your "quote" was made up shit."
You actually said it was implausible whence the difference?
"Reprted by who Jim?"
Been hrre dio=ne that, please tryy to keep up
Do you want a list?
"You were unable to find any such report because it was never reported."
Fuckof andf stop calling me a liar - how do you know it wasn't reported?
Where the dozen or so people who have related it over my lifetime all telling lies?
If you7 call ,y a liar again, I'll proceed to pit together the list of lies you have told - I'll probably start with the one you told abot never having dismissed the song as a joke.
Why is this so important to you Keith -   why is is illogical - what are you hiding that you feing it so important to deny it?
What a bunch olf loyal Klansmen you are between you
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 11 Aug 16 - 05:01 PM

Review the ACTUAL conditions and regulations they live under in Gaza and the occupied territories.

Hamas produced video of Gaza - the hashtag reads thank you Hamas: YouTube

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Aug 16 - 04:23 PM

You quoted two Israel apologists because they were Jews. You pinned that on them deliberately in an attempt to derail the conversation. Well I could have made your point for you by naming Israel apologists who are not Jews. How many do you want me to name? You named two who were Jews in order to exploit them for your silly game. That makes you the archetypal antisemite.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Aug 16 - 04:05 PM

Israel cares more about the Palestinians that the Palestinian leaders care about them

That's the most laughable piece of bullshit I've heard in many years. Review the ACTUAL conditions and regulations they live under in Gaza and the occupied territories.

Oh yeah, Bubo I forgot. Apologies. No facts need apply.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Aug 16 - 03:58 PM

Jim,
"No. You gave it as an actual quote."
Which is how I first herd it - the fact that I was unable to trace it was immaterial

It is material that no-one ever said it and your "quote" was made up shit.

You attempted to deny or at least play down the role of some of the British 'Great and Good' who actually supported Hitler and the Nazis.

Some? How many?
Britain went to war with Hitler, and stood alone against his seemingly unstoppable war machine. They did not have to.
It was a choice that everyone knew would have a terrible cost, and it did.

I did not - I put it down to a reportedly overheard conversation in Westminster.

Reprted by who Jim?
You were unable to find any such report because it was never reported.
It was made up propaganda.

Steve,
I referred to Israel regime apologists.

Who happened to be Jews, and you have yet to substantiate you claim that they are apologists for anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 16 - 03:32 PM

Whoops - missed the links:
Didn't want yuo to think I was making it up:
Aggression
Gun Owenership
There - save all the time and money of having to visit the Psych, doesn't it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 16 - 03:20 PM

" Do you know what "hearsay" is?"
I know what it is when it is repeated over a number of decades by different people in different cities- probably right.
Out of curiosity, why is is so important to you to defend something that was fairly common among the British 'great and good' and might have been said by any of them at any time?
We know they were about at the time - stretching up to the British monarch -
BRITISH FASCISM
Why on earth should it have not happened?
Don't get me wrong - I have no objection to your doing so - far from it - it is confirmation of what a nasty little right-armed saluter you really are, so please keep defending your friends..
Are you aware that no evidence is needed to prove such things of such people - you have the information about the Right Club - or was that just nasty, made up shit.
You know what Doc Freud said about people whi constantly talk down to people - that it's usually a sign that they can't geyt one up when required
Why not try Viagra - it might halp your problem , though it will rob us of a great deal of amusement

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 11 Aug 16 - 03:12 PM

Bibi is 100% correct. Israel cares more about the Palestinians that the Palestinian leaders care about them.

The Prime Minister of Israel
4 hrs ·

I'm going to say something now that some of you will not believe. But I'm going to say it anyway because it's true.

I, the Prime Minister of Israel, care more about Palestinians than their own leaders do.
Israel cares more about Palestinians than their own leaders do.

That sounds incredible, right?

But consider the following:
A few days ago, the world learned that Hamas, the terrorist organization that rules Gaza, stole millions of dollars from humanitarian organizations like World Vision and the United Nations.

Innocent and impoverished Palestinians were denied vital aid supplied from nations around the world.
Hamas used this stolen money to build a war machine to murder Jews.

I want you to think about that. Let that sink in.

Hamas stole critical support for Palestinian children so that they could kill our children.

So I ask you—who cares more about Palestinians?

Israel, that facilitates the entry of humanitarian aid into Gaza, every single day?
Or Hamas, that robs Palestinian children of that very same aid?

Israel, that treats wounded Palestinians from Gaza in its hospitals?
Or Hamas that prevents injured Palestinians from getting help?

Imagine, just imagine, where we might all be if Palestinian leaders cared as much about helping their own people as they did about hurting our people. The Palestinian people deserve better.

And today, I express my deepest sympathy with innocent Palestinians and those well-meaning nations who generously donated money to help them.

The cynicism and cruelty of Hamas is hurting all of us.
It's hurting peace.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Aug 16 - 03:03 PM

Oh yes, Teribus, we are plenty aware of that, don't you worry. Speaking of which, where is YOUR evidence that Chakrabarti accepted a peerage IN EXCHANGE FOR a whitewash, that isn't hearsay, puttting two and two and two together to make five, she's a red and what more do you need, "it's bleeding obvious when you think about it," etc. etc? What's sauce for the...oh, never mind...

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Aug 16 - 01:11 PM

"I did not - I put it down to a reportedly overheard conversation in Westminster."

Jom those are your words, and not so long ago on this thread you were rabbiting on about Justice and Legal Systems and the like. A question for you, well a couple really:

1: Do you know what "hearsay" is? Do you know what it means?

2: Are you also aware that it does not constitute evidence in any way, shape, or form.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Aug 16 - 01:06 PM

"...but yes they were Jews so their views on Labour antisemitism do not count."

"But yes?" Do not pretend that you are agreeing with something I said. I referred to Israel regime apologists. If you want to pin "Jew" on them, fire away, but bear in mind that that's precisely what Adolf's goons did in the runup to Kristallnacht. There are plenty of Israel apologists who are not Jews. You have just branded yourself an antisemite. Thanks for saving the rest of us from the trouble.


"By "apologists" you presumably mean they supported Israel's right to exist. I thought you did too Steve."

Oh, isn't the world so black and white, Keith. Don't forget that act of contrition next Sunday, you hateful little man.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 16 - 12:57 PM

The more you dissemble the more you reveal of yourself, so do keep it up, it's accumulating.
My offer still stands - even doubled
I will make as large a donation as you care to name if you can give me one example of my never attacking The Jewish People - one will do
A failure to do this makers you the trollish liar that you are.
You are living proof of the risk the Israel regime have put the Jewish People to in blaming them for Israeli atrocities - poncing of the dead of Auschwitz
It's little wonder that you don't have the spine to even mention Keith's atrociious trivialising of extreme Antsemitism
As I said - the Kapo mentality
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Aug 16 - 11:14 AM

the more you reveal of yourself, so do keep it up, it's accumulating.

Yes, Bubo, but enough has already accumulated for us to know what a piece of work you really are! No need to accumulate more. Case proven.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 16 - 11:08 AM

"Really? I thought what is being discussed here is Labour's hell bent rush to destruction at the hands of, and on the watch of, the one the faithful of "Momentum" call "The Leader"
Been skulking under the stairs - we're discussing the plot to discredit the Labour Party on the basis of no evidence to date
You come across any examples otr numbers yet - no - thought not.
"Labour's hell bent rush to destruction at the hands of, and on the watch of, the one the faithful of "Momentum" call "The Leader"
Wrong again, we're looking at an attempted right wing coup in the Labour party not unsimilar to what is happening in the rest of Europe.
I'm really not surprised that you have chosen your side, fascist that you are.
Corbyn my be inexperienced, but he reflects what the Labour Party should stand for - right politics is fucking up the entire planet at the present time - aant you with your 'itinerant wok force' - you lazy British workers and "crap manufacturing industry" gives us an pretty good example of why   
I have no idea what type of leader he would turn out to be, any more than you have but at least he doesn't present the 'Death's Head Danny Tebbit' future that you and yours offers.
Its a bit ludicrous to tak about a Tory support takling about a party being - it wasn't a Labour leader that was forced to resign after Brexit - nor have they appointed a racist, braindead, unqualified foreign spokesman or created a situation of increasing economic crisis, rising unemployment and the upheaval facing British people working abroad.
The entire parliamentary system has been destabalised -so gloating about what's happening to the Labour Party seems somewhat ludicrous.
"That you first put down to ONE politician, who you could not identify,"
I did not - I put it down to a reportedly overheard conversation in Westminster.
Stop making things up and pay attention
I explained exactly where I got the story - that I was unable to provide the source is immaterial (unless you, like Keith, would like to show it was "illogical")   
What I did provide was names of people in responsible positions whose actions made the story credible - likely even.
Britain had an active Antisemitic Fascist movement working during World War Two to prepare a provisional government for the day "Herr Hitler came to power".
Now why on earth should comments such as I have described have been made
It's not how many people who supported admired Hitler that presented the threat - it's who they were and what position in society they held - kings, nobility, politicians., newspaper proprietors, giants of industry - they were the people capable of doing the damage.
Had Germany won and your lot managed to take over - wonder wheer they would have erected their gas chambers!!
Mudcat seems to have acquired a comfy little Kabal of Klansmen to defend the good name of the British right - do you think the others carry weapons, as you have boasted doing?
Must drop my sisters a line reminding them to lock the front door at night.
You goose - steppers really are something
Go- on, show us your gun again!!
"The British public have been told of numerous members of the Labour Party who have made anti-Semitic comments a"
No they haven't - nobody has "told the British people" any such thing
No specific Antisemitism ahs been identified - not even from the leaked enquiry, no numbers are forthcoming, no description of what from that "antisemitism" takes.
An accusation, instigated by the millions of pounds worth propaganda campaign
LATEST
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 11 Aug 16 - 10:04 AM

Spineless little Jew-hating creep

The more you dissemble the more you reveal of yourself, so do keep it up, it's accumulating.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Aug 16 - 09:57 AM

"Israel is solely to blame for what we are discussing here"

Really? I thought what is being discussed here is Labour's hell bent rush to destruction at the hands of, and on the watch of, the one the faithful of "Momentum" call "The Leader".

As for the origin of the comment "lie invented by whingeing Yids?" That you first put down to ONE politician, who you could not identify, or provide evidence that the comment was ever made.

You have now changed that Jom to numerous politicians you were "told" about. Yet you still cannot name one. This you believe wholeheartedly, and you think everyone else should too.

The British public have been told of numerous members of the Labour Party who have made anti-Semitic comments and about rewards offered and accepted for covering it all up - making the problem go away - Quite a number of people believe that and oddly enough they have far greater justification for believing that than you have believing what you do Jom.

Don't you find it funny that in the 1930s roughly 250 people to varying degrees admired Hitler and the Nazis out of a population of how many millions? And these people who you refer to as the "great and the good" sang anti-Semitic songs. Well Jom advance the clock 75 years and we find that it is now a section of the Labour Party singing anti-Semitic songs - "trickledown effect"??

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 16 - 09:51 AM

"Just spotted one."
Then get away from that mirror
Spineless little Jew-hating creep
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 11 Aug 16 - 08:53 AM

Just spotted one.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 16 - 08:49 AM

Incdently Bubblyrat
"How to spot a Jew hater"
Is editorial from the right wing Toronto Sun - a tabloid bumwipe to the Right of our own bum-wipe Sun - a supporter of exteme right-wing politics in Britain and America - just the place to go for evenness and accuracy - once you get past the page three dolly-bird.
Your extremist tendencies are showing again
"antisemitism" uses - Brooklyn
CRITICISM of ISRAEL
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 16 - 08:21 AM

condemning Israel exclusively, obsessively and selectively is.
Nobody is, but at the present time Israel is solely to blame for what we are discussing here
We may as well bring up the atrocities committed by the US in Vietnam.
We are not discussing atrocities in general - we ar discussing the Gaza Massacres and war crimes, the stealing of Palestinian land, the creation of a Apartheid Stae and the ethnic cleansing of Palaesinians

HOW TO SPOT AN APPEASER OF ANTISEMITISM
Present him with this, ask him to condemn it as antisemitism and recieve no reply.   
"Land of dope and Jewry,
Land that once was free,
All the Jew boys praise thee
While they plunder thee.

Poorer still and poorer
Grow the trueborn sons,
Faster still and faster
They're sent to feed the guns.

Land of Jewish finance,
Fooled by Jewish lies,
In press and books and movies
While our birthright dies.

Longer still and longer
Is the rope they get
But, by the God of battles
T'will serve to hang them yet."
You are a Holocaust denier - I thought tthat was Antisemitic!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Aug 16 - 07:39 AM

condemning Israel exclusively, obsessively and selectively is.

Actually, Bubo, that would be antiisraelic.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 11 Aug 16 - 06:56 AM

Israel isn't the only country on Earth, and certainly not the only one in the Mideast, that has ever violated the human rights of its minorities, and sometimes, even majorities.

Condemning that isn't Jew hatred.

On the other hand, condemning Israel exclusively, obsessively and selectively is.

How to spot a Jew hater

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 16 - 04:24 AM

"Because neither song has any historical significance, though the Dad's Army one reflects most closely how Brits felt at the time."
Apoloogist crap Keith
If songs like this had no significance, then neither did anything that happened in Europe in the thirties and forties.
They were part for the history of who was doing what to who
It is now illegal in Germany to deny that the Holocaust didn't happen.
It should be equally illegal to deny that prominent people i Britain supported those event - which was precisely what you attempted to do.
As usual, your interest wasn't then and still isn't in what happened to the Jewish People, but to defend the British right wing establishment.
You attempted to deny or at least play down the role of some of the British 'Great and Good' who actually supported Hitler and the Nazis.
These people and what they did were part of what happened - our history, just as musc as was the appeasement of Hitler, That no attempts to stop the rise of Hitler were ever undertaken, the fact that a British Monarch and his lady where friends of "Herr Hitler", that he taught the Royal children to give the Nazi salute......
ALL A PART OF BRITISH HISTORY
To deny or play down any of this is equivalent to denying that the Holocaust happened.
"No. You gave it as an actual quote."
Which is how I first herd it - the fact that I was unable to trace it was immaterial
What is very material is that you went to great lengths to deny it, claiming that it was "illogical" - please tell me that you still hold that view - PLEASE!!
You were given the facts of British fascism yet you still claimed that that statement could not have been made.
Wht should people like those wow wrote:
"Land of dope and Jewry,
Land that once was free,
All the Jew boys praise thee
While they plunder thee."
should not have claimed the Holocaust to have been a "lie invented by whingeing Yids?"
You are a truely evil little man.
"No. I was showing that the inference is widely held"
No it is not.
Despite the fact that the Israelis now have the contents of the enquiry in full, not one statement implicating The Labour Party in serious Antisemitism - not one.
All the quotes given so far have been criticism of Israeli war crimes - which is not Antisemitism.
Some critics may have adopted the same policy of blaming the Jewish People, but so have the Israelis, so have you and certainly, so has Bobad - making you all Antisemites.
You, with your appeasement of British fascism, most certainly are anyway.
A REMINDER of WHAT YOU SUPPORT
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Aug 16 - 03:43 AM

Steve,

Are those two examples of prominent apologists for the Israeli regime supposed to be evidence that Chakrabarti accepted a peerage IN RETURN FOR A WHITEWASH,

No. I was showing that the inference is widely held, especially by Labour Jews whose opinion is highly relevant.

prominent apologists for the Israeli regime
Can you for once justify that assertion?

Jim,
"It was a silly song, and disgustingly antisemitic."
Then why did you compare it to the theme song from 'Dad's Army'

Because neither song has any historical significance, though the Dad's Army one reflects most closely how Brits felt at the time.

I recalled having been told as a young man of British politicians describing reports of Auschwitz as "lies by whingeing Yids".   
You objected strenuously saying I had made it up -

No. You gave it as an actual quote.
You were forced to concede that it was not. It was made up.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Aug 16 - 06:36 AM

"It was a silly song, and disgustingly antisemitic."
Then why did you compare it to the theme song from 'Dad's Army'
"I never said it was harmless,"
Then why did you compare it to the theme song from 'Dad's Army' We went to "war against Herr Hitler and stood alone aginst him at great and terrible."
Diversive bullshit.
Can I remind you of how that argument started.
I recalled having been told as a young man of British politicians describing reports of Auschwitz as "lies by whingeing Yids".   
You objected strenuously saying I had made it up - you insisted that such an idea was "illogical"
Despite having been presented with the behaviour of some British politicians, you continued to defend your "illogical" argument.
You have never had any interest in the welfare of the Jewish People - your only interest is to defend the interests of right wing extremism - here and in Israel.
Inn this particular case, that included defending virulent Antisemitic fascism by extremely dangerous British Fascists art a time when, as you say "we went to war against Herr Hitler and stood alone against him at great and terrible cost".
I like the "Herr" - by the way - not often you see him referred to as Mr.
And before you use it as an excuse - mine was a direct quote from British Fascists - yours was your own chosen description.
Jay-sus - is the mask really slipping when you're put to it??
"you presumably mean they supported Israel's right to exist."
More made up Keith shit
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Aug 16 - 05:32 AM

....cost

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Aug 16 - 05:32 AM

Steve,
two examples of prominent apologists for the Israeli regime

They were lifelong Labour people, but yes they were Jews so their views on Labour antisemitism do not count.
By "apologists" you presumably mean they supported Israel's right to exist. I thought you did too Steve.

Jim,
Are you really defending this ****** song
No.

Your disgustingly antisemitic comment was that it was a harmless "silly" song

It was a silly song, and disgustingly antisemitic.
I never said it was harmless, but that little clique of antisemites had no influence.
We went to war against Herr Hitler and stood alone aginst him at great and terrible.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Aug 16 - 05:07 AM

"Jim, one anti-semite wrote a silly song for his antisemitic friends, "
Are you really defending this ****** song by a bunch of British fascist who went on to attempt to form a provisional Government for when "Herr Hitler won the war"
"The song was never published or sung in public."
So what - does that make Antisemitism from members of the Government, the House of Lords, The Press.
Your disgustingly antisemitic comment was that it was a harmless "silly" song - considering what was to follow, that is an obscene statement to make, and considering what would have happened had Hitler won the war, it is dismissing genocide.
You are fully aware of this, which is why you lied about having said it "Not true. Produce a quote why don't you?!"
I really think you're finished here, don't you Keith?
You really do disgust me.
"How can we when Chakrabarti refused to make them public in her whitewash report."
The report is now in the hands of those in whose interest it would be to release the details of Labour's "Antisemitism" - none is forthcoming so I really must be very, very, Antisemitic, don't you think????
As Bobad's link pointed out, it amounts to criticism of Israel, which makes the civilised world "antisemitic"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Aug 16 - 04:54 AM

Are those two examples of prominent apologists for the Israeli regime supposed to be evidence that Chakrabarti accepted a peerage IN RETURN FOR A WHITEWASH, Keith, or do they merely represent the fact that you enjoy nothing more than flogging dead horses? Wouldn't you have thought that, by now, had there been any truth in the allegation, the gutter press would have gone to town on it? Or maybe your mate Rupert fancies the arse off of Shami so is laying off... 😂😂😂

There are no Jew-hating bigots in this thread, bobad, but I'll tell you this much: there won't be many Jews, in Israel or anywhere else, who would want you for a friend, especially if they heard about how you hid behind a cheating second identity in order to call people Jew haters leaving "bobad" unscathed. They simply wouldn't feel safe. You are the archetypal antisemite. A Hamas secret agent couldn't be doing a better job than you.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Aug 16 - 04:22 AM

Jim, one anti-semite wrote a silly song for his antisemitic friends, on the eve of this country taking on the might of the Third Reich expecting nothing but deaths and crushing defeat.
The song was never published or sung in public.

"Well your honour - we think they're guilty but we're not going to tell you who they are or what they've done."

How can we when Chakrabarti refused to make them public in her whitewash reeport.
We do know that 50 people were suspended from the party, and that the "entire NEC was appalled" just by "recent incidents" of antisemitism.

The problem was serious enough to require two labour Party inquiries and a Parliamentary one yet to report.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Aug 16 - 03:51 AM

"ZFUK is not the only organization voicing harsh criticism of Labour's handling of antisemitism in the party."
And once again we have confirmation that this campaign is linked directly to Israel's attempts to offset criticism of it's murderous and predatory behavior.
Bobad's linked article is taken from statements from The Zionist Federation of the U.K. whose self stated aims are...
"The ZF celebrates Israel and challenges our enemies. As the UK affiliate of the World Zionist Organisation, originally founded as the Zionist Organisation at the initiative of Theodor Herzl, The ZF stands up for Israel in all forums, both nationally and internationally. From the media, to civil society, to the political establishment, The ZF is proud to support the noble cause of Zionism."
It really cannot get more plainly stated than that - the "Antisemitism" that Labour is being accused off are not attacks on The Jewish People, but on criticism of Israel - it actually says so in the article - anybody who criticises Israel automatically becomes an Antisemite..
I've asked Bobad is that is is position - with his usual display of courage he refuses to answer,
I was brought up in a household that totally supported the cause of the State of Israel.
The obvious rise in Nazisim in Germany inspired my father, a pacifist Catholic, to volunteer to fight in Spain to attempt to stop the rise of fascism - he fought alongside Jewish Refugees who had fled Germany and recognised the Nazi threat to the Jewish People.
He was wounded, captured and hospitalised, and in San Sebastain Prison he befriended German Jewish members of the Ernst Thälmann Brigade.
When my father died, our house was filled with people I had never met, including some of the Jews who had fought alongside him in Spain, some of whom had gone on to become Jewish Freedom Fighters for the new State of Israel.
Throughout my entire political life I have associated with and befriended left wing Jews who thought, as I do, that this rotten world desperately needs improvement - now "self-hating" Jews all, to the scum who have destroyed the dream of a Jewish Homeland by adopting the same policies as were used to send six million of them to the extermination camps.
To Bobad - I am an Antisemite, because I oppose these people.
Fine by me.
I'm happy to put beliefs against anybody's who doesn't have the courage and the principle to condemn the describing of this song, written on the eve of the extermination of six million Jews, as "a silly song as harmless as the theme song of 'Dad's Army', 'Who Do You Think You're Kidding Mr Hitler":

Land of dope and Jewry,
Land that once was free,
All the Jew boys praise thee
While they plunder thee.

Poorer still and poorer
Grow the trueborn sons,
Faster still and faster
They're sent to feed the guns.

Land of Jewish finance,
Fooled by Jewish lies,
In press and books and movies
While our birthright dies.

Longer still and longer
Is the rope they get
But, by the God of battles
T'will serve to hang them yet.

Please feel free to call me an "Antisemite" for as long as the fanct takes you Bobad - personally, I'm at a loss to find a word which describes your behaviour.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 09 Aug 16 - 08:31 PM

"The more stories like this emerge, and the greater the suspicion that the current Labour leadership is unwilling or unable to tackle or even recognize what contemporary antisemitism looks like, the greater the perception will become that, as it stands, the party is a toxic environment for Jews."

ZFUK is not the only organization voicing harsh criticism of Labour's handling of antisemitism in the party.

Jonathan Sacerdoti, director of communications at the Campaign Against Antisemitism, said in a statement that Labour's "constant stream of controversy and scandal…further erodes the trust of all reasonable Britons in the party itself."

"Weak cover stories, half excuses, support from and for extremists, power and honor being handed to those covering up antisemitism, and now money being donated by terrorist sympathizers and supporters; there can be no question that this is being misread or spun by a specific interest group," he said.

Antisemitic Fringe in Labour Emboldened by Rise of Jeremy Corbyn

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Aug 16 - 05:14 PM

"I want to see Corbyn elected asaleader of the labour party."
Me too Dick
He may lack experience but he's streets ahead as far as honesty and principles are concerned.
I might even decide to vote againif he stays.
Do these people really feel it acceptable that you can accuse a Party in this way and refuse to describe what they are accusing it of
I really do find this unbelievably
No wonder the Irish hate them - whoops - forgot - they wouldn't tell us how they did that either
Memo to myself - must resist using the word tosser
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Aug 16 - 04:54 PM

I want to see Corbyn elected asaleader of the labour party.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Aug 16 - 04:46 PM

Just goes to show you eh Greg
Somebody actiually belitles the suffering of the Jewish People - no problem
Somebody criticises the extreme right wing Israeli Regime - tooy thrown ot of th pram
His ancestors really bust be proud of thiis defender of the faith
Sheesh - what a friggin' team of right-wing tossers!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Aug 16 - 03:00 PM

Keep up with the anti-Semitic tropes Carroll

Yup Bubo- just like those thouusands of Jewish Israeli citizens who oppose the atrocious policies of the Israeli Government.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Aug 16 - 02:57 PM

"Keep up with the anti-Semitic tropes Carroll, "
You're the Antisemit Bobad
What do you think of Keith's "silly" song - do you think it's as harmless as the Dad's Army theme considering what was happening to the Jewish People at the time
I don't expect youto answer this - defending the Jewish people isn't your thing, is it?
Your dishonest spinelessness is a wonderful example of Israeli bhaviour.
Now, if it were about the Israeli regime, that would be different.
"He said he will resign if Corbyn is re-elected leader."
Hopefully he'll take a bunch of right-wingers with him.
'bout time the Labour Party remembered why it was created.
Any word on numbers or examples yet fellers - no - thought not
Beee-zaaaar!
"Well your honour - we think they're guilty but we're not going to tell you who they are or what they've done."
Pity the days of silent film are over - this would make a great Mudkat Kops scenario.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Aug 16 - 02:19 PM

Gillian Merron, who is now the chief executive of the Board of Deputies of British Jews, suggested that Shami Chakrabarti's antisemitism inquiry within the Labour Party was "something of a whitewash".

Merron represented Lincoln as Labour MP from 1997 to the 2010 general election

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Aug 16 - 02:14 PM

Parry Mitchell, a Jewish member of the House of Lords and a former frontbencher under Ed Miliband, said anti-Semitism in Labour had been "permitted to fester" under Mr Corbyn.

In a letter to The Times this morning, Lord Mitchell said the inquiry led by Shami Chakrabarti, which concluded the party was not "over-run" by anti-Semitism, was an "insipid whitewash".

He said he will resign if Corbyn is re-elected leader.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: MikeL2
Date: 09 Aug 16 - 02:13 PM

Hi
The Party's over....it's time to call it a day..!!!

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 09 Aug 16 - 02:02 PM

Keep up with the anti-Semitic tropes Carroll, they show you to the world for the Jew hating bigot that you are.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Aug 16 - 01:49 PM

"Either of you EVER had an original thought of your own?" - Raggy {"Just saying like"}

Judging by the respective input to this thread and considering some others I'd say both of us have given the subject a great deal more attention and thought than you (Or "say nothin'" Greg F.) have Raggy.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Aug 16 - 12:44 PM

Either of you EVER had an original thought of your own?

Correction: Either of you EVER had a thought, period?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Aug 16 - 12:28 PM

"Worked out well for all those folks in Gaza didn't it Raggy? "
Thanks to Israeli genocidal terrorism, do you mean?
Just saying, like!
"And when did the Israeli throw people off high-rise buildings Greg F"
And when did Hamas adopt a policy of ethnic cleansing and facilitate the massacre of 3,500 unarmed rafugees
How long do you want to go on with this - plenty more examples.?
USE of WHITE PHOSPHORUS
U.S. COVER UP
ISRAELI WAR CRIMES HAARETZ
ETHNIC CLEANSING HAARETZ
ISRAELI WAR CRIMES
Want any more?
Jim Carroll



Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Aug 16 - 12:22 PM

Oh how very original of the professor and his sidekick to use an expression someone else used.

Either of you EVER had an original thought of your own?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Aug 16 - 11:54 AM


(a)continues: for under the wing of Islam followers of all religions can coexist in safety and security where their lives, possessions and rights are concerned.

Christians are disappearing from the whole Middle East through persecution, likewise Yazidis from Syria, and there are regular massacres of Christians in Pakistan.
Then there are the killings of one kind of Muslim by other kinds.
Just saying like.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Aug 16 - 11:30 AM

No, just bomb the buildings out of existence.

Just saying like.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Aug 16 - 11:05 AM

And when did the Israeli throw people off high-rise buildings Greg F.?

Hamas did that to members of Fatah they rounded up in Gaza in 2007. I must say you guys and Hamas have got a very strange idea of what constitutes safety and security of those under Hamas governance. On the subject of governance and respect of the rights of the population in general - When was the last time elections were held in Gaza Greg F.?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Aug 16 - 10:47 AM

Worked out well for all those folks in Gaza

That the folks the Israeli Gov't annihilated, T?,

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Aug 16 - 10:44 AM

Raggytash - 09 Aug 16 - 10:25 AM

(a)continues: for under the wing of Islam followers of all religions can coexist in safety and security where their lives, possessions and rights are concerned.

"Just saying like." - Says Raggy

That certainly worked out well for all those folks of different religions and political affiliations in Gaza - the latter coexisted magnificently in safety and security up until the point Hamas launched them off the roofs of high-rise buildings - Just saying like

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Aug 16 - 10:33 AM

Raggytash - 09 Aug 16 - 10:25 AM

(a)continues: for under the wing of Islam followers of all religions can coexist in safety and security where their lives, possessions and rights are concerned.

"Just saying like." - says Raggy

Worked out well for all those folks in Gaza didn't it Raggy? - Just saying like......

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Stu
Date: 09 Aug 16 - 10:31 AM

I wish you lot would get a room.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Aug 16 - 10:27 AM

Bit surprised you have the nerve to show your face again here after your having been exposed as a hypocrite and an apologist for Antisemitism
You want to prove there's a problem with Antisemitism in the Labour party, tell us what it is, who's involved and how many.
The idea of putting a Party with no history of antisemitism or bigotry on trial and refusing to specify what those charges are and who you are accusing is bloody obscene.
Even Stalin wenbt to the trouble of trumping up charges and providing some sort of evidence
You are a pair of extremist half-wits - and you are an apologist for antisemitism, so your reasons for behaving the way you do is to push your ow nextremist agenda
who are these antisemites - what have they said that makes them antisemitic - how many of them are there?   
Answer that you you may hAve a CASE - THIS IS GETTING BLOODY RIDICULOUS - A TRAIL WITHOUT SPECIFYING THE CHARGES AND REFUSING TO NAME THE ACCUSED - WHAT EXTREMIST WORLD DO YOU LIVE IN?
"Chakrabarti's Report ensures the latter."
No it doesn't until some solid evidence proves there to be a problem with Antisemitism in the Labour Party the verdict of the survey stands
You have produced no evidence, neither has anybody else.
"Charmingly put as ever Jom."
Don't thik you have any grounds for complaint about how to address people =- you are an ill-mannered thug - I took my cue from you.
"Does support for Hamas count as legitimate protest against the Israeli Government?"
Support for the Palestinian People does not count - unfortunately, as things Stand in the Middle East, Hamas is the only opposition the Palestinians have against Israeli terrorism so, no, of course it does not count.
Ironically, Hamas has not acted in any way different from all resistance movements involved in National Liberation - including the Jewish Freedom Fighters who fought for the State of Israel.
Israel is carrying out a war of ethnic cleansing to create a monotheist State - what rules of warfare do you suggest the Palestinians adopt to stop that from happening.
And no - I am not a Hamas supporter, but I see the peresent alternative to them unthinkable as things stand
Had the U.S. not protected Israel with their vetoes, Israel would have stood trial for atrocities long ago.
"Does singing "Rockets over Tel Aviv" count"
(Won't take advantage of the amusing typo - as you would)
No more than using chemical or anti-personnel weapons, or facilitation the massacre of 3,500 unarmed refugees..... or all the other atrocities carried out against a civilian and largely unarmed Third World people "counts" - but shit happens in war.
Show thaty these things never happened and you might have a case - I suppose you could take Keith's line and just deny them
Aren't you one of the people who claimed that the Arabs have no right to Palestine - cae proven, I think - another supporter of the Israeli regime taking a pop at Labour - a pattern well established, I think
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Aug 16 - 10:25 AM

(a)continues: for under the wing of Islam followers of all religions can coexist in safety and security where their lives, possessions and rights are concerned.

Just saying like.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Aug 16 - 09:19 AM

Jim Carroll - 09 Aug 16 - 06:13 AM

Usual mixture of bluster and denial I see Jom.

1: "If the Labour Party is to survive, this has to either be proven with evidence and numbers or walked away from."

Chakrabarti's Report ensures the latter. Despite howls of protest from rather a large number of people within the Labour Party and from groups representing the Jewish Community in the UK.

2: "Make your case - give us numbers or examples - show us there is evidence of Antisemitism or stick your accusations up your fascist holes."

Charmingly put as ever Jom.

We know the numbers last reported it was 50 suspensions - because of the recommendations detailed in Chakrabarti's Report nothing more will ever be heard of the names or the details related to why these people have been suspended - That Jom is as effective a "cover-up" as anyone could wish for. And the Labour Party far from dealing with this with complete transparency they've made it as opaque and obscured as they possibly could have {Remembering of course that Baroness Royall's Report would never, ever have been put into the public domain by Labour's NEC had it not first been leaked}

Examples we had 5 complete with names and examples of the remarks that were made.

Does support for Hamas count as legitimate protest against the Israeli Government? That is the Hamas, whose founding Charter states:

(a) Strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine. (Article 6)(That explodes any "myth" about seeking any Two-State Solution)
(b) There is no negotiated settlement possible. Jihad is the only answer. (Article 13)
(c) Calls for action "by the people as a single body" against "a vicious enemy which acts in a way similar to Nazism, making no differentiation between man and woman, between children and old people. (Article 20) ("no differentiation between man and woman, between children and old people" - Does that sound like the Israeli Government they are talking about?)
(d) Conspiracy charges against Israel and the whole of the Jewish people: "Israel, Judaism and Jews".[Article 28)

Does singing "Rockets over Tel Aviv" count as legitimate protest against the Israeli Government?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Aug 16 - 07:54 AM

Jim,
the Israeli regime are insisting that all criticisms of its policy - even by Jews, is Anrtisemi

More tosh from Jim!
They have a free press and media that constantly criticises government policy.
They have an Opposition, whose JOB it is to challenge and criticise government policy.

No Antisemitism, other than criticism of Israel was found

Yes it was, but Chakrabarti chose not to detail it or name the guilty.
We have plenty of examples though, and they have been detailed here.

Steve,
NOT EVIDENCE THAT SHE ACCEPTED A PEERAGE IN RETURN FOR A WHITEWASH.

Yes it is. Not proof but evidence certainly.
There can be no proof that a peerage was awarded for donations or whitewashes, so it is nauseatingly disengenuous of you to demand it.
I am sure you believe the former without proof, so why demand it for the latter?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Aug 16 - 06:13 AM

"Jom old son I don't really think that you have been following this at all have you?"
Didn't think for a minute you could manage to avoid the three Bs
Get a grip and answer the questions, you arrogant half-wit
An insignificant amount - all relatet to criticism of criticism of Israel - hardly surprising, since the Israeli regime are insisting that all criticisms of its policy - even by Jews, is Anrtisemitic.
No Antisemitism, other than criticism of Israel was found - if it was, what was it and how many were involved - if that's all there was, as the Israelis have made any definition of Antisemitism unusable, so there isn't even a case to answer on that
It is little wonder that the case has been closed on this nonsense.
Labour is in the midst of a leadership attempted coup in which the Blairite New Labour right wing have leapt on this Israel-instigated claim as if it was a 49 bus.
If the Labour Party is to survive, this has to either be proven with evidence and numbers or walked away from.
You bunch of hypocrites have made quite clear that Antisemitism isn't the issue here - one of the most vociferous of your number is a blatant antisemitsm appeaser.
It is about taking a pop at the Labour Party
None of you care a toss for the Jewish People, you don't give two flying ***** abut bigotry or racism, otherwise you would be up in arms aboit Tory racism and bigotry -
THis is all about your hatred of anything that challenges the establishment
Make your case - give us numbers or examples - show us there is evidence of Antisemitism or stick your accusations up your fascist holes.
And please try to come to terms with the fact that you are neither knowlegable or bright enough to talk down to anybody here - if there was a pecking order, you'd be standing in a queue outside the farmyard waiting for your application top be considered
You really are a nasty little squalid - it's little wonder you only have the supporters you do here
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Aug 16 - 05:26 AM

Well a couple of things (again). First, okay, there has been a distinct lack of spin (refreshing) but a considerable amount of naivity (bloody annoying) over the timing of the enquiry apropos of Chakrabarti's membership and peerage. They really should have seen the flak coming. However, all the dark talk in the world about how these things can't just be coincidences, etc., is NOT EVIDENCE THAT SHE ACCEPTED A PEERAGE IN RETURN FOR A WHITEWASH. Next, the facts of the matter. We KNOW what remarks by Livingstone, Shah and others led to this furore. We KNOW what Chakrabarti said about those remarks and other ignorant and inappropriate comments. She reached a conclusion that there were matters to be addressed but that Labour is not overrun by antisemitism. Which it bloody isn't. So where's the whitewash? Do you actually know the substance of any other remarks that haven't been made public or are you just inventing stuff in your mind to demonise Labour as much as you can?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Aug 16 - 04:48 AM

"You want to prove there to be Antisemitism in the Labour Party - you need to identify what it is, who is involved and how many - basic justice on which our judicial system rests."

Both Royall and Chakrabarti found evidence of anti-Semitism and a culture of tolerance to anti-Semitism within the Labour Party - both mitigated that by stating that as yet it was not "institutionalised" throughout the Labour Party - but 11 recommendations were put forward by Royall and others by Chakrabarti that required "immediate and sustained action" {Royall's words} to prevent anti-Semitism becoming "institutionalised" throughout the Party. You from the outset have never acknowledged that fact.

I do not need to identify whether or not there is anti-Semitism within the Labour Party two inquiries commissioned by Labour's NEC have found that anti-Semitism does exist inside the Labour Party.

I do not have to identify names and numbers, Royall and Chakrabarti already know them, we do know that 50 members were suspended pending investigation and now because of Chakrabarti's report we will never know the results it now all goes quiet - a classic "cover-up".

What Royall and Chakrabarti carried out were internally commissioned inquiries - not a trial so our system of justice does not come into it.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Aug 16 - 04:32 AM

To prove something has been covered up requires that you show what has been covered up"

Jom old son I don't really think that you have been following this at all have you?

1: Royall Report 11 recommendations + 7 additional suggested recommendations for the Chakrabarti Inquiry that Royall was shut out of (You cannot obviously influence anyone by offering them a peerage if they already have one can you?)

2: Three of the seven suggested additional recommendations are ignored and Chakrabarti's recommendation basically shuts off any further investigation that would delve into the situation that prevailed prior to her report being submitted. So conveniently for Labour's NEC any calls for any investigation that would expose any wrong doing they can sit back and ignore.

Any suggestion why within the extremely short timespan that Shami Chakrabarti was a member of the Labour Party, "The Leader", decided to do a U-turn on his declared decision not to make any nominations to the Lords and reward the new-comer, who just coincidently was investigating abuse within the Labour Party involving "Momentum" with a peerage - his one and only nomination lobbied for as soon as Cameron announced his resignation.

If that set of circumstances were applied to the Conservative Party you would be screaming "cover-up" and "whitewash" from the rooftops. Unfortunately it is the Labour Party that Corbyn has chosen to destroy that are in the firing line and most complaints are coming from within the Party and that Jom is an undeniable fact.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Aug 16 - 03:56 AM

" I am not the only person who thinks this whole thing stinks, not by a long shot."
What the **** does that mean?
Your, or anybody's "thinking" that somebody is guilty of anything means nothing - proving it is what matters.
To prove something has been covered up requires that you show what has been covered up - you refuse to do so with your bizarre statement that it is not necessary to do so.
Yours and you Antisemitic mates' double standards are unbelievable
One party had been condemned by you for something that had been found not to exist while you fully accept and even defend proven racism in appointing a strutting loud-mouthed racist lout Foreign Secretary.
The Labour Party was accused of Antisemitism, immediately held an enquiry and found there to be none of any significance.
The Tory Party is accused by Islamic community leaders of Islamophobia - it does nothing - and you refuse to comet on that fact.
You accuse The Labour Party of using the honours system to cover something you will not specify, yet you refuse to acknowledge the well-known ongoing corruption in the use of the honours system as a method of fundraising and profiteering.
Bit of a tendency apparent here, don't you think?
You want to prove there to be Antisemitism in the Labour Party - you need to identify what it is, who is involved and how many - basic justice on which our judicial system rests.
The only thing that is definite here is that, as |I said from the begnning - the whole affair is traceable back to Israel's proagands machinations to prevent the Goods Boycott campaign from gaining further ground - Keith's and Bobad's 'witnesses' are examples of that.
Now - let's see if you are capable o dealing with that without your usual three B's - bullshit, bullying and bluster - and let's try it without the pomposity this time.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Aug 16 - 01:50 AM

Steve Shaw - 08 Aug 16 - 07:08 PM

"Now let's see. You make an accusation ............. The onus is squarely on your shoulders to prove your claim, not on us to disprove what you say. You started it, so let's see you seeing this through."

Remember those words Shaw, they are yours and they are, without any shadow of a doubt, going to come back and bite you and your pals.

As to the honesty, the impartiality and the integrity of the Report in question and the subsequent award of a peerage - far from being a deliberate and well orchestrated anti-Labour or pro-Israeli smear campaign, the first cries of foul came from within the Labour Party itself.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Aug 16 - 01:37 AM

Greg F. - 08 Aug 16 - 09:23 PM

Not so Greg F. - I am not the only person who thinks this whole thing stinks, not by a long shot.

Chakrabarti's report was supposed to be "independent" - it clearly would have been so and beyond question had she remained politically neutral - yet for some reason just over two weeks after having been given the task she feels she has to join the Labour Party.

Corbyn stated that he would never appoint anyone to the House of Lords. He has only ever lobbied for and put forward one nomination - Shami Chakrabarti - a staunch, loyal and valued member of the Labour Party who had given invaluable service for all of 14 weeks - Of course it was entirely coincidental and totally immaterial that she just happened to be investigating the Labour Party for racist behaviour at the time.

Chakrabarti accepted the honour, the timing of which could not have been worse, in doing so she shot the integrity of her report and herself to shreds. She did that Greg F. not me, not Keith A, not Akenaton or bobad, She did that and rather a large number of people, in politics, in various action groups and in the media think that. Maybe that is why there was so much chatter about it.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Aug 16 - 09:23 PM

I do not think that it would be beyond the bounds of probability that your jury would conclude that there had been a pay off for a "whitewash".

Only if said jury was made up of individuals with your mental prowess, T-Bird.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Aug 16 - 07:45 PM

" In a court of law that would be thrown out among laughter and derision from judge and jury."

As no actual crime has been committed that would be a civil court Shaw, where no such absolutes as "beyond" reasonable doubt apply, cases are judged on probability and taking into account the events and the time line I do not think that it would be beyond the bounds of probability that your jury would conclude that there had been a pay off for a "whitewash".

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Aug 16 - 07:08 PM

Now let's see. You make an accusation that this woman has accepted a peerage IN RETURN FOR A WHITEWASH. Then you tell us not to be silly because the accusation is unprovable. So why are you making an unprovable accusation? In a court of law that would be thrown out among laughter and derision from judge and jury. The point here is that the accusation did not exist until anti-Labour and (more particularly) pro-Israeli factions made it. The onus is squarely on your shoulders to prove your claim, not on us to disprove what you say. You started it, so let's see you seeing this through. Timelines, coincidences, putting two and two together to make five and character assassinations, not to speak of insinuations about the innate corruptness of the left, are not evidence. The fact that you won't back down on this scurrilous and unsupportable smear against someone whose politics don't suit you speaks volumes about your dishonesty and lack of integrity, qualities that she has in spades but which have evaded you completely.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Aug 16 - 05:54 PM

In The Navy

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Aug 16 - 03:41 PM

Nope, I recall, even if you don't, that you told me I couldn't read a compass or navigate, that you had done all these things, sailed tall ships, been in the navy and that you KNEW Cork was on the East coast of Ireland.

You went very quite when I first attached the map I have included today, Can't quite think why.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 16 - 03:34 PM

Can't wait to see what Bobad has to say about all this, but maybe he believes Antisemitic songs are a bit of fun if they're written by Tories!!
JimCarroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 16 - 02:39 PM

Looking for a "prominent person" so you can claim you were only saying it was a bit of harmless fun because somebody told you to Keith?
Now - anout all these Antisemites in the Labour Party - who are they and what are they saying?
Your mate seems to have fecked off again
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 16 - 02:02 PM

"No. That has never been given as the reason for any peerage."
Of couse it hasn't - you don't think these pricks tell us what they get up to
You have the link
"No need to, unless you think that "the entire NEC" were lying! "
No they weren't - yo are by deliberately distorting what they actually said
Where has anybody proved a "serious" problem
All your own work Keith
No justify your claim bey describing it - or at least, lining to a description of it
No?
Thought not.
"Not true.
Produce a quote why don't you?!"
Have just done just that - you are a liar and have been proven to be one - again.
"Demanded by who? Just you Jim?"
Youve been given it half a dozen times - here's another
DEMAND FOR ENQUIRY INTO ISLAMOPHOBIA
Maybe it doesn't count if it's made by "implanted" perverts
"Utter bollocks."
Of course it's utter bollocks tomake such an ourageously racist claimn - whyu do it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 16 - 01:39 PM

Jim,
Peerages have long been recognised as a way of rewarding donations
No. That has never been given as the reason for any peerage.
It is just quietly understood that is the reason, as with whitewashing.

"Serious enough to "appal" the "entire NEC" just with "recent incidents!"
You've said this already and still haven't provided any examples of it.

No need to, unless you think that "the entire NEC" were lying!

Yur dismissed them as a bunch of harmless cranks and, when presented with some of the Antisemitic filthy that was being published in their 'Journal' you dismissed it an unimportant and claimed it was as "harmless" as the theme song from Dad;s Army

Not true.
Produce a quote why don't you?!

a demanded enquiry into Islamophobia

Demanded by who? Just you Jim?

And you have stated quiute clearly that myou8 believe all male Pakistanis in Britain to have been culturally inplanted implanted with    a tendency to rape underage girls

I never have or would state such nonsense

this is sill your view"We are all implanted to some extent by our culture "

It is my view, and an obvious truth.

The implication of this is that the Muslim culture produces perverts

Utter bollocks.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 16 - 01:28 PM

A reminder of what you were describing as "silly "– the song was written at the time the Jews were beginning to learn the lessons of Nazism.
You arean Antisemitc shitbag Keith
Jim Carroll

BS: Ireland-What happened? thread
Hymn 1939
Land of dope and Jewry,
Land that once was free,
All the Jew boys praise thee
While they plunder thee.

Poorer still and poorer
Grow the trueborn sons,
Faster still and faster
They're sent to feed the guns.

Land of Jewish finance,
Fooled by Jewish lies,
In press and books and movies
While our birthright dies.

Longer still and longer
Is the rope they get
But, by the God of battles
T'will serve to hang them yet.

Your response.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 12:57 PM
Silly songs don't count, or I could post "Who Do You Think You Are Kidding Mr Hitler" as proof to the contrary!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 16 - 12:59 PM

"You have a racists obsession with skin colour, but are oblivious to blatant antisemitism if from hard left Labour"
And you have stated quiute clearly that myou8 believe all male Pakistanis in Britain to have been culturally inplanted implanted with    a tendency to rape underage girls - and you've just confirmed that this is sill your view"We are all implanted to some extent by our culture "
The implication of this is that the Muslim culture produces perverts
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 16 - 12:43 PM

Your link sttes it can not offer proof.
A feckin' sight more proof that your claim of Antisemitism in the Labour party
Peerages have long been recognised as a way of rewarding donations
"Serious enough to "appal" the "entire NEC" just with "recent incidents!"
You've said this already and still haven't provided any examples of it.
The Labour Party carried out an enquiry and no serious problem was found - you are now attempting on the one hand to undermine that enquiry while on the other, putting forward your misinterpretation of what the NEC said - the NEC accepted that there was no problem - if there is - name it and shame it or stand as the liar you are.
"Yes please! I did not know you had made one up."
Just put it up Keith
We were discussing the Fascist 'Right Club' - made up of Tory Politicians, Peers of the realm, including the Duke of Wellington and industrialists, press barons and other prominent figures who were attempting to form a provisional government at a time when the war was in the balance and Jews were being herded into extermination camps.
Yur dismissed them as a bunch of harmless cranks and, when presented with some of the Antisemitic filthy that was being published in their 'Journal' you dismissed it an unimportant and claimed it was as "harmless" as the theme song from Dad;s Army
It seems, your line hasn't changed here much - Tory Antisemitism isn't worth bothering about but it's worth while inventing Labour Antisemitism
You are a racist, an apologist for Government racism, and a an enthusiastic supporter of the appointment of a racist Foreign Secretary.
The fact that neither of you will explain why the Governmewnt won't hold a demanded enquiry into Islamophobia, makes all of these transparent.
Now take your accusations of "racism" and stick them where they beloing, you squalid little man
RACIST JOHNSON
"Old ground Jom and your arguments were ripped to shreds then"
No they weren't - you did a runner on all of them - how could they be "ripped to shreds" when you refuse to provide proof to anything you claim
Who the ****'s goung to believe an arrogant biggoted flag-waggger who sti;; yearns for the Empire
Dreamm on
Now - you were going to tell us all about this Labour Paty Antisemitism - what is it - how many people practice it - who says they do - what evidence do they provide
I knew I should have wor that bullshitproof shirt
Jim Carroll
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Aug 16 - 11:56 AM

Goalpost changing Ragged? Nope just reopen the thread and quote in full the post where I originally referred to Cork as an East Coast Port - I think that it was perfectly clear what I meant, and so I suppose do you as you seem so reluctant to do that.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Aug 16 - 11:53 AM

Despite desperate attempts by Jom & Raggy to divert attention away from Labour's problems over anti-Semitism - it still rumbles on with Chakrabarti being accused of deliberately ignoring evidence placed before her and another story of two of Corbyn's main supporters making anti-Semitic remarks.

As for their Leadership election they still haven't even decided upon who can actually vote in it. Apparently the High Court has just announced that all the mugs they conned into parting with £25 now can vote.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 16 - 11:46 AM

Jim,
Life Peerages for donationins

Your link sttes it can not offer proof.
It describes a statistical algorithm that could not prove any peerage was for a donation or a whitewash report.
Steve was being nauseatingly disingenuous in demanding proof.

What there is no evidence of is a serious problem of Antisemmitism in te Labiour Party -

Serious enough to "appal" the "entire NEC" just with "recent incidents!"

Perhaps it's time to remind you of your past support for British Antisemitism?

Yes please! I did not know you had made one up.

"Racist" rag has never described the entire British male Pakistani population as culturally implanted racists (sic) of children

I am relieved to hear it. Nor have I

Rag has not defended blatant racism from the foreign Secretary -

Good. Neither have I. He would have to resign anyway if he had been blatantly racist, but that is made up too.

Rag hasn't defended Antisemitic filth broadcast by British peers and industrialists as "no more important than the theme song of Dad's Army

Good for him. Nor has anyone else.

Rag,
You said that a Londoner was a Pakistani merely because you saw the colour of his skin.

No. Merely because like Alibhai Brown he was born into that heritage and brought up in that culture.
YOU are the only one who has repeatedly linked it to skin colour.
You have a racists obsession with skin colour, but are oblivious to blatant antisemitism if from hard left Labour.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Aug 16 - 11:38 AM

You said that a Londoner was a Pakistani merely because you saw the colour of his skin.

Full stop. No if's, no but's, no maybe's.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Aug 16 - 11:37 AM

Moving the goalposts are we Teri. You stated repeatedly that Cork was on the East coast.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Aug 16 - 11:27 AM

To Raggy and to Jom - reopen the threads - you were getting slaughtered on them before I dare say the same will happen again.

Old ground Jom and your arguments were ripped to shreds then.

Thanks for the link though - it wasn't quite as scathing of Kitchener as I think you took it to be. Jim and Gerry missed out some quite amazing and highly significant factors though.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 16 - 11:26 AM

Rag,
Yasmin Alibhai-Brown, who was born in Uganda, is an adult she can describe herself as she chooses.

Yes, and the fact that she does even though a British citizen and not born in Pakistan is proof that it is not racist to thus describe someone of that heritage, so drop the silly name calling.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Aug 16 - 11:14 AM

Already said reopen the thread and we can discuss it in the context originally stated. No mistake on my part, the Port of Cork served the eastern side of Ireland, links to the South and to the west of Cork were extremely poor. IIRC correctly the point being made was to do with distribution of food and the lack of deep water ports with all their requisite facilities in the South and West of Ireland. You as usual missed the point completely and roared off on one of your pedantic "Fisking" expeditions.

By the Bye here's a Map for you (Although I fear that you are too dense to realise the significance of it!!):

Severity of Famine - Look at Cork


Population Increased in Cork

The first of those maps showed how the effects of the famine were mitigated round Cork - that demonstrates how extensive distribution infrastructure was. Compare that to the South and to the West.

The population of Cork, Dublin and Belfast grew during the famine years as people cleared off the land in the worst affected areas and moved to where they could get food, work or transportation. The reduction in the size of the population in Ireland between 1845 and 1851 was due to three things in decreasing order of magnitude:

1: Emigration
2: Disease (For which at the time there were no cures)
3: Starvation - the least factor by far.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 16 - 11:11 AM

"There are some who have a problem with a Jewish national state though."
Not on this forum there isn't
If there are, point them out, otherwise, once again you have been proved a lying troll
"And what mistake have I not admitted and apologised for oh ragged one?"
This'll do for a start - lots more where that came from - like democratic Britain in the early 1800s, well off Liverpool, Ireland being tricked into rebellion by foreigners, the peace loving Loyalists, A War to end all Wars....
Difficult to know where to start really!!
You might try explaining why, if there is so much Antisemitism in the Labour Party, nobody, inside or out, has ever put a description or a figure on it?
There - I knew I should have worn my bullshit proof vest!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Aug 16 - 10:33 AM

The one I raised again this morning, you know the location of Cork, you've referred to it today, I've given you the map.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 08 Aug 16 - 10:24 AM

but with equal vigour support the Palestinian right to national self-determination.

Has anyone here said that they don't support a Palestinian national state?

There are some who have a problem with a Jewish national state though.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Aug 16 - 09:32 AM

Raggytash - 08 Aug 16 - 08:46 AM

And what mistake have I not admitted and apologised for oh ragged one?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Aug 16 - 09:10 AM

Also from T-Bird's link, Bubo:

... the words of Nelson Mandela: "As a movement we recognise the legitimacy of Palestinian nationalism just as we recognise the legitimacy of Zionism as a Jewish nationalism. We insist on the right of the state of Israel to exist within secure borders, but with equal vigour support the Palestinian right to national self-determination."

Obviously a Hamas-supporting antisemite was Mr. Mandela.

We don't pretend for a second that there are no problems in Israel-Palestine. We don't ignore the imperfections of Israeli society. We don't overlook the tragedy of conflict.

Obviously the Baroness & friends are also clearly antisemitic. How dare they criticise Israel!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Aug 16 - 08:46 AM

You made a statement Terriblossom, you stated quite clearly:

"if I make a mistake I do not only admit it but that I also apologise for my error."

I have merely pointed out that it is not the case. You may prevaricate and tergiversate much as you wish.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Aug 16 - 08:17 AM

As was your non-response to what was stated and to the challenge offered for you to re-open the thread in question.

For Raggy who earlier questioned my knowledge and education I previously received the following message:

"Hi Teribus, Firstly I know this may be a bit of a shock to you, so apologises for that.

You are obviously interested in the subject and far more knowledgeable than some others on this forum.

Having said that he continued on the same subject after repeatedly proclaiming his own lack of knowledge to tell myself and others that we were all wrong and that he knew better.

By the way Raggy I will direct you to the Thread on Easter Week and the term Field General Court Martial which I disputed and admitted I was in error offering apologies to both Joe Offer and yourself.

Not wishing to acknowledge that and appear to be out of step with Shaw you'd rather show precisely the lack of honesty and integrity that has been shown by the Labour Party under Corbyn over the last seven months - Well done Raggy - you reassure me with practically every post of yours that "Leopards do not change their spots".

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 08 Aug 16 - 07:51 AM

From Teribus' link:

Lastly – but most distressingly – we observe with horror what Mr Chalmers describes in his note of resignation: "members of the Executive throwing around the term 'Zio' (a term for Jews usually confined to websites run by the Ku Klux Klan)"; senior members expressing "solidarity" with Hamas; claims that "most accusations of anti-Semitism are just the Zionists crying wolf" and the fact that "a large proportion of both OULC and the student left in Oxford more generally have some kind of problem with Jews".

Rather reminiscent of our resident Labour apologists, isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Aug 16 - 06:31 AM

There you go Steve a clear example of Teriblunders version of:

"if I make a mistake I do not only admit it but that I also apologise for my error."

Wasn't it magnificent !!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Aug 16 - 06:29 AM

Open Letter to OULC

I know Shaw wouldn't do anything about it, so there it is for all to read.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Aug 16 - 06:21 AM

Steve Shaw - 07 Aug 16 - 05:21 PM

The report was spot on. There were ignorant attitudes and there were remarks made that were unwise. Making remarks about Israel and the Nazis in the same breath is not appropriate. All matters that must be addressed, but the party is not overrun by antisemitism. That is no whitewash. You wouldn't have been satisfied unless every member of the party had been named by her as a rabid antisemite. To you and your ilk, anything less is a whitewash. Sorry, but you are not entitled to make accusations that you can't support. Think all the evil thoughts about her you like, but you have NO EVIDENCE THAT SHE ACCEPTED A PEERAGE IN RETURN FOR A WHITEWASH. To make that accusation without evidence makes you a nasty little shit.

1: The report was spot on

If the report was spot on Shaw so were the reasons that not one but two investigations were commissioned by Labour's NEC the first occasioned by leading members of the Oxford University Labour Club resigning because they felt that they could no longer participate and attend meetings in safety - This Inquiry was conducted by Baroness Royall, she too found that anti-Semitism was not institutionalised but she did state that there were serious concerns that required immediate and sustained action. She also found that this was not only a problem for the University Labour Club but that the same situation existed throughout the Labour party to varying degrees. That is what gave rise to the Inquiry entrusted to Shami Chakrabarti.

Royall's recommendations included seven additional points that she suggested Chakrabarti's inquiry should adopt. Three of the seven were ignored making the key difference between the reports is that Chakrabarti offers amnesty to antisemites while Royall recommended robust vetting and expulsion if prior bad acts are found. The submission of the Chakrabarti Report, by it's own recommendation, acts as a "shut-off", a watershed if you like, as the NEC will not investigate any incident that predates the date of submission of the report.

Now does anyone want time line for all of this?

15th February, 2016 - The letter to the OULC following the resignation of Alex Chalmers as co-Chair.

18th February, 2016 - Minister for Universities calls for an Inquiry into the allegations of anti-Semitism

February 2016 - Baroness Royall appointed to conduct an Inquiry into anti-Semitism within Oxford University Labour Club

27th April, 2016 - Naz Shah suspended by the Labour Party for anti-semitic comments

28th April 2016 - Ken Livingston suspended by the Labour Party

29th April, 2016 - Shami Chakrabarti appointed to conduct a wider inquiry into anti-Semitism within the Labour Party.

16th May 2016 - Shami Chakrabarti joins the Labour Party.

17th May 2016 - Baroness Royall's recommendations and conclusions are made public the actual report is suppressed by Labour's NEC

23rd June 2016 - EU Referendum

24th June 2016 - David Cameron resigns, shortly thereafter his resignation honours list is compiled. Jeremy Corbyn has a member of his staff contact No 10 to get Shami Chakrabarti's name added to the list.

30th June 2016 - Shami Chakrabarti submits her Report

27th July 2016 - Shami Chakrabarti appears on Newsnight

4th August 2016 - Shami Chakrabarti receives peerage as Jeremy Corbyn's sole nomination in David Cameron's resignation honours list, having been a member of the Labour Party for roughly fourteen weeks.

Now what do you think she had done to deserve that unique honour Shaw?

Showed unswerving and unfailing loyalty to him "Momentum" rather frighteningly refer to as "The Leader"?

For delivering the Report "The Leader" required?

Shami Chakrabarti appeared on national television and was asked a question:

Kirsty Wark: Is there a peerage in the offing? It has been discussed a Labour peerage might be in the offing for you?

Shami Chakrabarti: I don't know Kirsty, are you going to take one?

KW: I haven't been offered one, have you?

SC: Many times

Her last offer came from Tony Blair and Gordon Brown - she turned them down. But on that Newnight programme Chakrabarti lied, because on the 27th July she would have had to have already been offered the peerage and accepted the honour if it was announced on the 4th August.

Stinks to high heaven Shaw and "guilty" or "innocent" neither the Labour Party, "The Leader", Labour's NEC or Shami Chakrabarti have come out of this very well, their timing and judgement has been terrible and as a result of being the opposite of transparent their integrity is in tatters.

2: "There were ignorant attitudes and there were remarks made that were unwise. Making remarks about Israel and the Nazis in the same breath is not appropriate. All matters that must be addressed, but the party is not overrun by anti-Semitism."

Not yet Shaw, not yet.

Oh and before you launch into another diatribe about how this was all some figment of the imaginations of Teribus, Akenaton, Keith A of Hertford and bobad, I would suggest that you read that letter sent to the OULC on the 15th February 2016 that kicked all this off and pay particular attention to those who signed it.

While Baroness Royall stated that anti-semtism was not institutionalised within the OULC and in Labour she did say that there was a "culture of anti-semtism" - care to enlighten me as to what the difference is?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 16 - 05:43 AM

"he word is not an insult, except to racists Rag."
"Racist" rag has never described the entire British male Pakistani population as culturally implanted racists of children as you have
Rag has not defended blatant racism from the foreign Secretary - as you have
Rag hasn't defended Antisemitic filth broadcast by British peers and industrialists as "no more important than the theme song of Dad's Army - as you have
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 16 - 05:35 AM

"NO EVIDENCE THAT ANYONE ACCEPTED A PEERAGE IN RETURN FOR A DONATION"
Life Peerages for donationins
What there is no evidence of is a serious problem of Antisemmitism in te Labiour Party - you have produced none, neither has anybody else
Perhaps it's time to remind you of your past support for British Antisemitism?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Aug 16 - 05:17 AM

Because Sadiq Khan was born in London.

Yasmin Alibhai-Brown, who was born in Uganda, is an adult she can describe herself as she chooses.

It is your racism that describes Sadiq Khan as a Pakistani.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 16 - 05:10 AM

Rag, if it is right to describe Alibhai Brown as Pakistani, as does does herself, why not Khan too?
The word is not an insult, except to racists Rag.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Aug 16 - 05:07 AM

The context doesn't reposition a city Teri.

Have a look on the map I provided and then come back and tell us   again that "if I make a mistake I do not only admit it but that I also apologise for my error."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Aug 16 - 05:02 AM

You said that Sadiq Khan was a Pakinstani.

He was born and raised in Tooting, South London. He describes himself first and foremost as a London.

That is just a very clear example (yet again) of your racism.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Aug 16 - 04:36 AM

Raggytash - 08 Aug 16 - 03:07 AM

Now then Raggy - Give the context in which I said that Cork was an east coast port. It was something to do with the "Famine" and connected with the existing infrastructure of the time and the means and the ability to transport food to where it was needed.

If you wish to discuss this further Raggy I'd be delighted to do so - you could re-open the thread. But somehow I don't think that you will.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 16 - 04:34 AM

You have a racist obsesssion with skin colour Rag.
Skin colour is irrelevant in this.
I described Alibhai Brown as Pakistani because she is of that heritage and grew up within that culture, and because that is how she describes herself.

How can you call her racist for so describing herself, but not antisemitism so blatant that it "appalled" the "entire" National Executive Committee of the Labour Party?

"Different argument" again Rag?
It is antisemitic to have such double standards.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Aug 16 - 03:59 AM

Blatant racism .............. calling a man who was born in Tooting Pakistani merely because of the colour of his skin.

Now that's BLATANT racism.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 16 - 03:51 AM

Steve, everyone knows that peerages are awarded to party donors, but there is NO EVIDENCE THAT ANYONE ACCEPTED A PEERAGE IN RETURN FOR A DONATION, so it is always wrong to make that inference, right Steve?

Or are you once again employing different criteria where antisemitism is involved?

What form could proof for either take? Only confession.

You claim to see racism in the most trivial of cases.
You claimed it racists to describe Alibhai Brown as Pakistani.
Perhaps in your ignorance you consider the word an insult.
It is not, and it is how she chooses to describe herself so it can not be racist.

However, when faced with blatant racism but in the form of antisemitism, you claim not to see it, perhaps because those guilty are politically your friends.
In your politics the end always justifies the means, right Steve?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Aug 16 - 03:07 AM

From Teri "Well now Shaw perhaps you should ask your pal Raggy about that and also ask Joe Offer - they will tell you that contrary to your "belief" that if I make a mistake I do not only admit it but that I also apologise for my error. "

Perhaps you would like to reiterate that Cork is on the East coast of Ireland.

http://www.mapsofworld.com/lat_long/ireland-lat-long.html

Here's a map to help you.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Aug 16 - 11:29 PM

Quite. All lefties are totally corrupt. They always obtain money by deception and never declare it. If they detect even the faintest whiff of a possible peerage in the air they immediately promise a whitewash report. Bastards to a man, eh?

"Oh sure, we believe that". Well when reds are suspected of dodgy dealing, you don't need evidence. Ask Keith. All cooked-up suspicions automatically confirmed. Say no more. Bloody commies. What more do you need to know?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 07 Aug 16 - 08:40 PM

Uh oh!

UK's Labour Party leader Jeremy Corbyn faced criticism for an undeclared donation of £10,000 (NIS 50,000) for his successful 2015 leadership campaign raised by a pro-Hamas group.

According to documents obtained by the Observer, a Palestinian group held a fundraising dinner for Corbyn at which it raised £10,000. However this donation from Friends of Al-Aqsa was never declared to the Electoral Commission.

Corbyn's campaign claimed that the donation was not reported because the check bounced, according to the report Sunday. When asked what happened to the money that had been raised, a spokesman said: "I'm told a second check may have been sent but this was not received by the campaign." He added, "There is nothing dodgy going on." [Oh sure, we believe that]

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Aug 16 - 05:21 PM

The report was spot on. There were ignorant attitudes and there were remarks made that were unwise. Making remarks about Israel and the Nazis in the same breath is not appropriate. All matters that must be addressed, but the party is not overrun by antisemitism. That is no whitewash. You wouldn't have been satisfied unless every member of the party had been named by her as a rabid antisemite. To you and your ilk, anything less is a whitewash. Sorry, but you are not entitled to make accusations that you can't support. Think all the evil thoughts about her you like, but you have NO EVIDENCE THAT SHE ACCEPTED A PEERAGE IN RETURN FOR A WHITEWASH. To make that accusation without evidence makes you a nasty little shit. You adopted the same scurrilous and dishonest approach over Wheatcroft and the long-defunct working definition, not to speak of your clear distaste for Pakistanis, which has cropped up more than once. Next time you go to church, if they'll actually let you in, don't forget to say the act of contrition. Ugh. Disgusting little man.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 16 - 04:48 PM

"You are being nauseatingly disingenuous.!"
Proof that there is Antisemitism - no evidence whatever
Bit like all those Irish people who were brainwashed to hate the British, yet you could give no example of hatred.
If it doesn't fit, make it up with you Keith
Stupid little fanatic
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 16 - 04:20 PM

Steve,

And I am still waiting for you to justify your accusation with evidence that Chakrabarti accepted a peerage IN RETURN FOR A WHITEWASH.

You are being nauseatingly disingenuous.
What form would acceptable proof take Steve?
Obviously only a confession, and that is obviously never going to happen.

The FACT is that Chakrabarti produced a report that surprised everyone by playing down the antisemitism that had led to 50 suspensions from the party, and then it emerged, to her obvious embarrassment and shame, that she had received a massive payoff.

It stinks.

It is not just us that is saying that.
It is senior Labour people and everyone who speaks for the Jewish community.
You are on the wrong side of this debate.
You are supporting racial hatred.

Can you quote one single Jew in the whole world who does not believe that a section of Labour is rife with antisemitism and that the Chakrabarti report is a whitewash?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Aug 16 - 04:00 PM

So apologise then! 😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Aug 16 - 03:58 PM

"'I said pro-Israel regime bigots.'

That is what you call us because we dare to give Israel's side of the debate.
You don't want to consider anything but the other side."

I'm fed up of saying that I want the same for both "sides," peace, security and prosperity, and that I feel sorry for ordinary Israelis because of the way their bellicose regime works against those goals and puts them in harm's way. So you can shove your bloody lies about my "not wanting to consider anything but the other side" where the sun don't shine.

And I am still waiting for you to justify your accusation with evidence that Chakrabarti accepted a peerage IN RETURN FOR A WHITEWASH. Until you do (which, actually, you can't), you are a smearing, lying bigot.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Aug 16 - 03:57 PM

Steve Shaw - 07 Aug 16 - 03:44 PM

Well now Shaw perhaps you should ask your pal Raggy about that and also ask Joe Offer - they will tell you that contrary to your "belief" that if I make a mistake I do not only admit it but that I also apologise for my error.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Aug 16 - 03:44 PM

My arse, Teribus. You misread that quote and mouthed off accordingly. Blatantly obvious, old bean. Some of us manage to say "oops" when we make a booboo. Seems that your pride won't allow you to do it.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Aug 16 - 03:11 PM

Thicko ?

Go on terri, tell us all about your education .....................


...................................................


.....................................................


Hmmm Thought so you don't have any do you.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Aug 16 - 09:35 AM

Corbyn's Credibility With U.K. Jews Can't Get Much Lower

Nor can yours, Bubo, with anyone even marginally sentient.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Aug 16 - 09:31 AM

Nearly everyone here is deep in the weeds growing among the industrial waste dumps.

Now you are literally discussing the 'Jewish Question'?

I think divide and conquer is at play here.

The exception to the mob mentality are Jim , Steve and other notables.

Notice how a only a few thugs/goons here can cause such an immune response with viral hate.

There are diseases that can cause our own immune response to kill ourselves.

I will not respond or inquire about specific political identities but only comment in a generalized perspective;

Who is doing the dividing and to what ends?

Both sides have thier martyrs. They all advanced some ideas that started to succeed or fail. There are not many that run a complete course.

If the world proceeded logicly in a linear direction progress would be lightening fast, but it does not.

We and the world proceed irrationally gaining advantage where there is a niche for life.

Take care not to poison yourselves with known historic toxic ideas.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 16 - 09:20 AM

"Corbyn's credibility with Jews…."
Written by Dave Rich of the Community Security Trust
he CST claims to be 'a Jewish neighbourhood watch with a little bit added'.
This 'little bit added' is the surveillance and harassment of members of the Jewish community itself, especially those on the Left, who take issue with the political positions expressed by the self -proclaimed leaders of the community. As victims of their harassment, we have seen neither sophistication nor intelligence displayed by the officers of the CST and its forerunner, the Community Security Organisation (CSO).
Many Jews resent the bullying style of the CST at Jewish events in mainstream public venues. Members of the Jewish Socialists' Group and other organisations have even been prevented from entering a range of 'public' events policed by the CSO/CST. These have included a Holocaust commemoration, meetings about Nazi war crimes and an Israeli film festival. The victims have been condemned as 'security risks', despite offering to leave bags and personal effects with security personnel. Many of those excluded have been told they are 'on file'. On what basis they are on file and who verifies that the[SIC] information is impossible to find out[6].
People
"Back-peddling Raggy - not in the least thicko."
Were thinking of erecting a monument to the arguments you have abandoned or the points you have refused to respond to
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Aug 16 - 08:05 AM

Raggytash - 07 Aug 16 - 04:06 AM

Back-peddling Raggy - not in the least thicko.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 07 Aug 16 - 07:51 AM

The Labour party is working hard to give the impression it doesn't really care about anti-Semitism. Shami Chakrabarti's peerage is a sell-out of U.K. Jews' concerns about anti-Jewish attitudes within the party, an act of stunning hypocrisy and a failure of principles.

Corbyn's Credibility With U.K. Jews Can't Get Much Lower

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 16 - 06:10 AM

""Gillian Merron, a former Labour minister" - plays an active part as a blogger on behalf of Israel in the Jewish Chronicle (yet another link to Israeli propaganda)
She was found guilty of cheating on Parlaimentary expenses following the enquiries
Wonder if she sells used cars?
"That is what you call us because we dare to give Israel's side of the debate."
You give only Israel's view and deny any criticism of Israeli actions or policy - you are an appeaser of State terrorism
Interesting that you should say you dare - does Israel have critics then?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 16 - 04:29 AM

The Independent,

"Gillian Merron, a former Labour minister who is now chief executive of the Board of Deputies of British Jews, said the independence of Labour's inquiry was now seriously in question. "It looks like the award of a peerage for the delivery of a report which was seen as a whitewash and a disappointment to many in the Jewish community," she said. "There is a real question here about the integrity of this appointment." "

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Aug 16 - 04:06 AM

Hasty bit of back pedalling from Terri now that he has reread Steve's post.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 16 - 03:57 AM

Steve,
I said pro-Israel regime bigots.

That is what you call us because we dare to give Israel's side of the debate.
You don't want to consider anything but the other side.

This Channel puts both sides, which is anathema to closed minded bigots.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 16 - 03:16 AM

"You are a dinosaur Carroll, trapped sometime in the 1960s/1970s "
And you, Woodencock, are a fascist trapped in 1930s Germany - unfortunately some hangers-on like your good self still infesting the planet.
No answers though, just the old usual infantile insults - now there's a surprise!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Aug 16 - 11:10 PM

Steve Shaw - 06 Aug 16 - 04:04 PM

Sense of humour failure Shaw?

Not surprised that Raggy leapt in as he always does - everything seems to fly over him at about 40,000ft.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Aug 16 - 11:06 PM

"The same thing happened on Newsnight.
Is Kirsty Wark an "attack dog" too?

Kirsty Wark: Is there a peerage in the offing? It has been discussed a Labour peerage might be in the offing for you?
Shami Chakrabarti: I don't know Kirsty, are you going to take one?"

That was broadcast on or about 27th July, 2016. In which case Ms Chakrabarti was lying in her reply because by that date there was no - "I don't know Kirsty" about it - Shami Chakrabarti had already accepted by that date.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Aug 16 - 10:58 PM

Jim Carroll - 06 Aug 16 - 12:03 PM

You are a dinosaur Carroll, trapped sometime in the 1960s/1970s - fortunately the world has changed and moved on - only you have refused to move with it.

Corbyn is the same.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Aug 16 - 06:44 PM

I didn't even know whether the bugger was a Jew

Don't matter, Steve- he'll spew out the expected idiocy just in case!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Aug 16 - 05:12 PM

He called me a Jew-hater again even though I didn't even know whether the bugger was a Jew or not!!! 😂😂😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Aug 16 - 04:38 PM

For Jew haters anyone who is pro Israel is automatically a bigot.

Same old spew, Bubo - rather like the morons to whom anyone who critices the governmment of Israel is an antisemite???

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Aug 16 - 04:15 PM

Apologies Steve,

Sadly I had to cater to the lowest common denominator, which is normally Teribus.

The lack of a decent education is so apparent there.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Aug 16 - 04:04 PM

You twit, Teribus. It was Diane James rising through the ranks, not Putin. I copied and pasted a Tory. They speak your lingo, so you should have been able to understand it. Oi, Raggytash, it weren't me wot left out that comma - it were Cameron' s former speech- writer! 😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 16 - 03:22 PM

"For Jew haters anyone who is pro Israel is automatically a bigot."
The only Jew hater here is you Bobad - nobody else blames them for Israel's terrorism
"Name one who actually said "it doesn't stink.""
No Keith - you give us a list of who has.
Dianne Abbott has suggested that it an attack on women to suggest that her appointment was rigged
All of which is beside the point
Unless it can be shown that there was a cobever -up and you right wingers can be explicit about what that cover up entailed - you have no riht tio suggest there was
What is being covered up - who are these hordes of Antisemites you have been banging on aqbout.
What is the nature of the antisemitism they have been indulging in
You have not offered on single example of "serious" antisemitism - not one.
This spoke about widespread concern, you only produced two names of people who suggested there was a proi=blem - both incvolved Israeli propaganda organisations.
As usual - you invented it.
Labour was accused of antisemmitism - they looked into the matter immediately and found there wasn't a problem
Even so, in the light of Israel claiming all criticism being Antisemitic, a series of recommendations were made regarding taking care of that particular part of the problem
In my opinion, they should have told the Israelis to go stuff themselves - they are a terrorist state attempting to avoid a boycott brought about by their open acts of State terrorism.   
Only Antisemites like Bobad blame the Jewish People for Israeli crimes.
Your supposed concern for Antisemitism and racism is a load of bollocks anyway - none of you three morons have ever told us why the Tories have never mheld an enquiry into islamophobia and you've all broken your necks to defend our racist Foreign Secretary.
Now - descibe all thes antisemitism and their behaviour - how many are there of these hordes - if their Antisemites is so serious - why are you unable to describe it?
Far from being concerned about racism and bigotry, you are a prime example of both Mudcat's resident cup-holder, in fact.
While we're at it - do you have any vies on Cameron's resignation honours list - or is perceived Labour dishonesty the only thing taht concerns you (rhetorical question, of course?)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Aug 16 - 03:13 PM

Fine words butter no parsnips, Keith. The man was out to get Chakrabarti. Let's just see how that channel pans out then, shall we? They sound like they have exactly your philosophy apropos of pro-Israel, and we know how that stinks. You say Chakrabarti was easy on Labour. You know what the remarks were and so do I. I think she was right on the money, criticising precisely how and what she should have. I heard unwise and ignorant remarks. I heard no antisemitism. If you did, it was only because you've adopted a useless, over-broad definition. Tough. Your definition puts Jewish people in harm's way. That is antisemitic. One more thing. I asked you for EVIDENCE that Chakrabarti accepted a peerage IN RETURN FOR A WHITEWASH. You have produced a lot of surmise, a lot of jumping to unjustified conclusions and have demonstrated a lynch-mob mentality. Bloody good job you don't work in the justice system. As a person of proven integrity she drops hot shit on disreputable people like you.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Aug 16 - 02:53 PM

Not so, Bobad. Watch the interview. The man is an attack-dog. And I don't even know whether he's a Jew or not. I didn't say Jews. I said pro-Israel regime bigots. Do try to focus.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 06 Aug 16 - 02:33 PM

that bunch of pro-Israel regime bigots

For Jew haters anyone who is pro Israel is automatically a bigot.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 16 - 02:21 PM

Jim,
As many ther Labour members and MPs said, it doesn't.

Really?
Name one who actually said "it doesn't stink."

Steve,
Watch the interview, which was carried out by an attack-dog. And don't give me that independent-from-Israel rubbish. Just watch some of their output.

The same thing happened on Newsnight.
Is Kirsty Wark an "attack dog" too?

Kirsty Wark: Is there a peerage in the offing? It has been discussed a Labour peerage might be in the offing for you?
Shami Chakrabarti: I don't know Kirsty, are you going to take one?

"J-TV" .. that bunch of pro-Israel regime bigots

Will you for once justify your latest wild assertion?
I doubt it, but a first time for everything!

"Zanzer was keen to point out that the channel was independent from the state of Israel and "will not necessarily be pro- or anti-Israel; we'll let the public hear the Israeli perspective and it'll be up to the viewers to decide whether they're right".

The channel's Israeli bureau chief, CNN and ABC News veteran Jordana Miller, was also adamant that JN1 will not become a "propaganda station", saying "there's nothing about this network that will exclude, diminish or cut off the Palestinian narrative when it comes to the conflict here"."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 16 - 02:06 PM

Steve,
DOES NOT MEAN THAT SHE ACCEPTED THE PEERAGE IN RETURN FOR A WHITEWASH.

You mean we should all trust that she would have been so easy on Labour had she not been bribed with a peerage?
Bollocks.
You can not be considered independent if you are accepting payoffs from one side.
All credibility is destroyed.
As one Labour MP said, "It stinks."
As another prominent Labour MP, Keith Vaz, the British Parliament's longest-serving Asian MP and member of the Privy Council said,
"'We were told that this was an independent inquiry and if it transpires that Shami Chakrabarti was offered her peerage before she was appointed or during the time she was appointed to conduct that inquiry then we needed to have been told,' Mr Vaz told Sky News."

OK Steve.
It is not just us but many within Labour who can not stomach this devious and corrupt state of affairs.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 16 - 01:52 PM

Jim,
You'e accused me of being a racist becaue I criticise Britain, you've just attempted to implicate Steve with being a racist

No, I have accused no-one of racism, so stop trying to make this debate about me again you sad, obsessed man.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 16 - 12:03 PM

"Forgive my reluctance to believe that, but the reason"
Do not call me a liar - my attitude really is none of your business.
All those years of Tory misrule, as you put it, were enough to make anybody realise that parliamentary democracy was and basically remains a total sham.
"Have I described the "British people lazy scroungers and British industry as crap not worth preserving"?"
You know bloody well you have, just as you have described British industry as crap and not worth preserving.
If a country is unable to provide full employment, it has to create a welfare system to cater for those unable to find work - that is accepted by all civilised states.
It doesn't encourage "lazy scroungers trapped within" any system - a society unable to cater for the population as a whole does that.
Your/Tebbit's "get on your bike" theory, which you still refuse to discuss the implications of, has the effect of destroying families and, as rents and accommodation prices are tied into where employment is, is bound to create an unstable population of itinerant workers with no fixed accommodation.   
"As to British Industry being crap - what ALL OF IT??"
Virtually all the major industries, certainly the ones necessary to create a long-term stable economy.   
Britain had industries that not only produced top-class products, but were long term and were potentially able to create the stability necessary to weather crises beyond the control of national governments - Thatcher and other Tory administrations systematically destroyed those leaving Britain with no industrial base steel, coal, light industries, shipping, textiles..... the pride of the Industrial revolution, all gone to suit the bank accounts of the privileged few
MEETING OUR MAKERS
"I will let you run on blanket generalisations"
You can't resist being pompous, no matter how hard you try!
I do wish you'd come to terms with your own intellectual shortcomings - there are very few people here you are in a position to talk down to - your are little more than a know-nothing blow-hard similar to all those pub bores who try to impress us with their wide experience and deep knowledge.
That is the reason you bully and bluster the way you do.
Wise up to yourself
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Aug 16 - 11:32 AM

Ukip and the Tory right are the same beast. Two cheeks of the same arse. You are definitely of the Tory-right persuasion going by everything you say. You are in Ukip's camp and you put yourself there.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Aug 16 - 11:28 AM

Having accepted the nomination and having (according to you, and big deal anyway) been sworn to secrecy DOES NOT MEAN THAT SHE ACCEPTED THE PEERAGE IN RETURN FOR A WHITEWASH. That is what you accused her of and that is what you can't support with evidence. Refusing to answer an impertinent question is not evidence. Watch the interview, which was carried out by an attack-dog. And don't give me that independent-from-Israel rubbish. Just watch some of their output.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Aug 16 - 09:53 AM

So you did mean to say that you hadn't voted for them since before Blair became leader. Forgive my reluctance to believe that, but the reason I somehow doubt it is that going by what you write there is absolutely no way on this Earth that you would have failed to vote Labour in the 1997 election after all those years of "Tory misrule" - you wouldn't have been able to resist the temptation to assist in the removal of a Tory Government.

Have I described the "British people lazy scroungers and British industry as crap not worth preserving"?

I think my condemnation was of successive British Government who have created a welfare system that encourages people to become lazy scroungers and trapped within a system that was only ever envisioned as providing a temporary safety net. As to British Industry being crap - what ALL OF IT?? I will let you run on blanket generalisations, I prefer to deal in specifics and fact. The bits that were crap have gone to the wall, the bits of those bits that were good still survive and thrive.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Aug 16 - 09:30 AM

Grow up Terri.

Some hope, for a lying sack of dirt.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 16 - 08:28 AM

"You mean you actually voted for Blair Jom??? "
Read what I said - no I did not vote for Blair.
It had become obvios where the Labout=r party was heading leng before him
What's your point anyway, and what the ****'s it got to do with you?
You really are a nosy little squalid.
"Well as your pals and "eggers-on"
I have no pals or "eggers on" on this forum - I have never b=needed egging on by anybody - unlike you, who appears to take your inspiration from schoolyard bullies and closing time thugs
Narsty little man
I respect people who are in The Labour Party to win it back for the people who made it, but that's as far as it goes
"we already know you to be a racist, a bigot and an Anglophobe"
No you don't - but we know you to be a self-declared fascist.
Waste of time my asking you to provide anything resembling proof of my racism or bigotry - thugs like you don't do that sort of thing
As for my Anglophobia - you are the one who describes British people lazy scroungers and British industry as crap not worth preserving.
Having you head stuck up the arse of the establishment doesn't in any way show love of country, though it is an indication of your fascism.
You really are incapable of behaving like a human being, aren't you
Having your head stuck up the arse of the establishment and your own arse at the same time is a sight to behold
Any word on your tent- towns yet?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Aug 16 - 08:04 AM

SHOCK !! HORROR !!! Steve Shaw missed out on a comma. Hold the front page !!

Grow up Terri.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Aug 16 - 08:01 AM

"not a word from the unholy trinity of right-wingers here criticising Ukip's scumbag racism. Oops, sorry, I forgot: you're all in their camp, of course. Silly me! 😂😂😂"

"In-their-camp" since when Steve?? You and your pals Jom & Raggy keep telling me I'm Tory through and through - do make your minds up.

Chakrabarti on being asked a perfectly simple question could easily have answered "No" without violating confidentiality, however she did not - perhaps as a lawyer she realised the position that that might have put her in if later facts came out to reveal that it turned out to be untrue.

Steve Shaw - 06 Aug 16 - 05:45 AM

Amazing what you learn reading the threads on this Forum. For example, did Putin really rise - "stealthily through the ranks of a party riven by rivalries and alcohol-fuelled rows" - So a career path very similar to that of Boris Yeltsin then.

The contenders for leadership of UKIP are:
Diane James: a former wrestler: an MEP who wrote a book celebrating golliwogs: and a councillor seeking a ban on Muslim schools.

They sound a varied selection of individuals. As an avowed atheist I would have thought that you would be opposed to Faith based education of any description.

I see that Birrell got this bit right:

"Now his forces focus on fresh ambitions – to become a permanent political fixture by exploiting the disruption of consensus, disenchantment with Westminster and disintegration of Labour."

Isn't Corbyn doing a great job.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Aug 16 - 07:38 AM

Don't think I've ever mentioned whether I am a member of any political party Terri, yet alone declared I am a member of the Labour Party. If you can prove otherwise I would be very surprised.

In the meantime perhaps you could restrict your post to the truth.



Though I doubt that and will not hold my breath.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Aug 16 - 07:23 AM

"I'm not a member of the Labour Party - as things stand at present, I don't even support their policies - I haven't voted for them since Blair and his cronies turned the party into a shadow Tory Party, so why should I have any regard for such guidelines?"

You mean you actually voted for Blair Jom??? Or maybe you meant to say that you hadn't voted for them since before Blair, but I somehow doubt it. As to why you might take heed of such guidelines? Well as your pals and "eggers-on" on this Forum are declared members of the Labour Party it would save them the embarrassment of having to correct your racist views Jom. No need to bother about us, we already know you to be a racist, a bigot and an Anglophobe on top of being a complete and utter idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 16 - 06:42 AM

"That is enough to undermine its credibility,"
Only if its findings have peen prove incorrect, and they have not.
This is merely changing focus from one failed line of attack to another.
Before any judgement can me bade of the report it has to be proven beyond any doubt that there is a serious problem of Antisemitism in the Labour Party, that has been found to have been not the case and until that changes the report stands.
As a Labour MP said, "it stinks."
As many ther Labour members and MPs said, it doesn't.
"You sad, obsessed man."
You nasty little serial racist.
"But I have, repeatedly!"
You lie - you never have.
You'e accused me of being a racist becaue I criticise Britain, you've just attempted to implicate Steve with being a racist
You have produced a couple of statements that suggest there is a link between the criminality of less than one thousand Muslim men (described as "testosterone fizzing young people" by one of your star witnesses.
Your statement accuses the entire male Pakistani population of being inclined to rape children because of their implanted culture.
You have never produced anybody who has ever suggested that, though I have no doubt that, if you dredge some of the most extreme racist sites, you will turn up something there that coincides with your claim, I'm sure.
We most certainly are NOT implanted by our culture - that reduces all to the level of unthinking automatons without a free will - which is how you described Pakistanis.
We accept or reject aspects off what we experience for a whole number of reasons - it's what makes us individuals rather than cloned cack-animals.
You are a very stupid, very unpleasant individual - you lack tolerance, you lack humanity, honesty and you lack morals in any shape or form - your raison d'être appears to be to win something
Do not call anybody a racist again and do not call me a liar again after all the lies you've told, particularly recently.
I'm "sad and obsessed" - I suggest you examine your own sad obsessions - you might start by counting the number of times you've claimed to have won something.
For the sake of honest discussion on this forum I suggest you and Teribus and Bobad get your shirt together and clean up your act - between you, you are the unacceptable face of humanity.

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 16 - 06:19 AM

Steve,
"J-TV" .. that bunch of pro-Israel regime bigots

Will you for once justify your latest wild assertion?
I doubt it, but a first time for everything!

"Zanzer was keen to point out that the channel was independent from the state of Israel and "will not necessarily be pro- or anti-Israel; we'll let the public hear the Israeli perspective and it'll be up to the viewers to decide whether they're right".

The channel's Israeli bureau chief, CNN and ABC News veteran Jordana Miller, was also adamant that JN1 will not become a "propaganda station", saying "there's nothing about this network that will exclude, diminish or cut off the Palestinian narrative when it comes to the conflict here"."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 16 - 06:10 AM

Steve,

By the way, the "J-TV" that Teribus refers to is a YouTube channel calling itself the Global Jewish Channel. You can watch Shami quite properly "evading" the question

Having accepted the nomination, she was sworn to secrecy.
Otherwise she could just have answered no.
It happened on Newsnight too.

She accepted the peerage before or during her inquiry, which as Streeting quite properly said, "stinks."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 16 - 06:02 AM

Steve,
Makes Labour's "serious antisemitism problem" pale into insignificance, doesn't it? But not a word from the unholy trinity of right-wingers here criticising Ukip's scumbag racism.

Not criticising or defending.
I hate racism in any form in any party.
You still deny that any antisemitic statemnets have been made by Labour.
hence this debate.

You accused her of taking the peerage IN RETURN FOR A WHITEWASH REPORT.   In return for it, Keith. Prove it

It is proven that she was offered and accepted a peerage before or during the writing of her report.
That is enough to undermine its credibility, and it is not just us saying that.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Aug 16 - 05:57 AM

By the way, the "J-TV" that Teribus refers to is a YouTube channel calling itself the Global Jewish Channel. You can watch Shami quite properly "evading" the question. Christ only knows why she agreed to appear with that bunch of pro-Israel regime bigots in the first place was my reaction.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Aug 16 - 05:45 AM

This is Cameron's ex-speech writer, Ian Birrell, in yesterday's Guardian, writing about Ukip.

Three members of the executive committee resigned in protest and there is dark talk of a split, with the insurance millionaire Arron Banks talking of purchasing another party. The new favourite is Diane James, an admirer of Vladimir Putin who has risen stealthily through the ranks of a party riven by rivalries and alcohol-fuelled rows. Among those she faces are a former wrestler, an MEP who wrote a book celebrating golliwogs and a councillor seeking a ban on Muslim schools.
As ever with fringe groups, the savagery of the infighting seems out of all proportion to size. Indeed, the party appears pointless once Brexit is implemented. The recent referendum result led Nigel Farage to stand down, saying that his political ambition was achieved. Now his forces focus on fresh ambitions – to become a permanent political fixture by exploiting the disruption of consensus, disenchantment with Westminster and disintegration of Labour.
None of the candidates jostling for position possess the cheeky chappie charm of Farage. Matthew Richardson, the party secretary, last year said they were standing up for "hundreds and thousands of bigots". Yet aided and abetted by fellow travellers in other parties, Ukip first spooked David Cameron into holding a referendum, then spooked a majority of voters into backing its cause.

Makes Labour's "serious antisemitism problem" pale into insignificance, doesn't it? But not a word from the unholy trinity of right-wingers here criticising Ukip's scumbag racism. Oops, sorry, I forgot: you're all in their camp, of course. Silly me! 😂😂😂 We probably won't need an enquiry, of course, as Ukip seems likely to self-immolate. Good riddance too if it happens.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Aug 16 - 05:30 AM

"She must have been offered it before the report" - bollocks. Not evidence. That proves absolutely nothing. Thrown out of court. You accused her of taking the peerage IN RETURN FOR A WHITEWASH REPORT.   In return for it, Keith. Prove it. Put up or shut up. And Teribus, dear chap, has it not occurred to you that dignified people routinely refuse to answer insulting and uncalled-for questions? You wouldn't do it and I wouldn't do it. If someone came up to you and said "Hey, Bill, are you a child molester?" Would you dignify the questioner with an answer? I bloody wouldn't. I'd tell him to bugger off in no uncertain terms and so would you. Now if you have solid evidence that she accepted a peerage IN RETURN FOR a whitewash, let's be having it. It is a very serious accusation, and it might not have occurred to you that had there been any truth in it at all it would be the scandal of the year. Instead, it's not even a nine-day wonder, and only that because of the hysterical bleatings of a few pro-Israel bigots who are actually very close to breaking the law by making unfounded and unsupportable accusations against her.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 16 - 04:28 AM

Steve,
Keith said he has the evidence but he can't produce it.

The secret was out within 3 weeks of the report (see my video link).
I was referring to the peerage offer myself a few days after that, weeks before it was announced, so it was leaked.

As T said, she must have been offered it before she produced her report.
As a Labour MP said, "it stinks."

Jim,
Call anybody a racist again and 'pouff' - up it will come.

I never have, but you have been dredging up that old stuff for years, and unless Mudcat finally stops you, you will continue trying to make threads about me instead of the issue.
You sad, obsessed man.

The fact that you have never produced anybody who you claim made a claim about implanted Pakistanis,

But I have, repeatedly!
We are all implanted to some extent by our culture, and I quoted many people who said the culture led to the offending.
I know nothing about that culture myself and made no claim about it myself.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 16 - 03:33 AM

"I have, every time you dredge it up."
Good - then we're both happy and will continue to be for the forseeable future.
The fact that you have never produced anybody who you claim made a claim about implanted Pakistanis, nor will you ever do so, proves it to be your statement alone.
Call anybody a racist again and 'pouff' - up it will come.
I've got very tired with you and your thuggish mate deliberately wrecking these threads with your dishonest stonewalling, your constant desire to "win", your extreme inhumanity, your hypocrisy and your insulting behaviour - both of you.
"4. Labour members should resist the use of Hitler, Nazi and Holocaust metaphors, distortions and comparisons in debates about Israel-Palestine in particular."
I'm not a member of the Labour Party - as things stand at present, I don't even support their policies - I haven't voted for them since Blair and his cronies turned the party into a shadow Tory Party, so why should I have any regard for such guidelines?
This comparison is now being made worldwide by Jews and non Jews, inside and outside of Israel, including by members of the Israeli establishment
General Golan
Holocaust survivors
Holocaust survivors petition
The definition of Antisemitism has always included the clause that it is forbidden to blame the Jewish People for the actions of the Israeli Government, yet the Israelis, by claiming that it is Antisemitic to criticise Israeli policy, are doing exactly this - equating their policies with the wishes of the Jews.
This makes any definition totally invalid.
"You really are a mental case, aren't you.....sick, sick, sick!"
No - it is you, by blaming the Jewish people for the atrocities carried out by Israel, who are sick - it is you who is the right wing extremist and it is you who denigrates the Palestinian people with cut-'n-pastes from fascist sites and supports the mass murder of civilians, refugees, women and children, and the destruction of their homes, schools and hospitals, the use of chemical and anti-personnel weapons, the massacre of 3,500 unarmed refugees........ who are as sick as the sickest parrot
GENOCIDE
Your defence of Israel is, by definition Antisemitic, so don't tell me I am sick
Your torrent of vitriolic abuse underlines exactly what you are.
You want to make a case for Israel, do so with genuine evidence, not long lists put together by fanatical Islamophobic organisations.
You want a decent argument - stop using Antisemitic arguments - you are no better than and little different from the BNP trolls that pop up from time to time on this site.
Nobody here has ever at any time on this forum accused the Jewish People of anything other than people like you.
You claim I am an extremist left-winger - do you have any evidence of this - course you haven't - people like you don't need evidence to make their insulting accusations.
Now - produce some proof or crawl back under your bridge
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Aug 16 - 01:35 AM

Steve Shaw - 05 Aug 16 - 05:56 PM

"Sorry, but if you are going to make an accusation (or, in your cases, a smear) ................................................ you must produce the evidence."

Good heavens Shaw, that is a bit of a turn round - you and your pals have been casting accusations and allegations around about people on this forum for years as a routine debating tactic and proudly declaring that no evidence or substantiation was required or would be forthcoming - A yes but I forgot - One sauce for the Goose another for the Gander, that hypocritical stance is regarded as being perfectly acceptable to you and your pals.

Chakrabarti was asked the question point blank in a TV interview:

"Oliver Anisfeld, J-TV's Founder said: "Many have criticised Chakrabarti's report into anti-Semitism in the Labour Party as simply written to provide cover for Jeremy Corbyn and his own troubling record of liaisons with known Jew haters.

"Chakrabarti's refusal to deny that she was offered a peerage raises certain questions - all she had to do was say 'no', assuming she hadn't, but she was uncomfortable and evasive. Viewers can draw their own conclusions."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 05 Aug 16 - 10:43 PM

British Jewish Community in Uproar After Controversial Author of 'Whitewash' Antisemitism Inquiry 'Rewarded' With Prestigious Parliamentary Position

The Algemeiner

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Aug 16 - 07:07 PM

Shit, Greg, how could I not realise that. Damn. Bugger. Well hit me on the bottom with the Woman's Weekly. By the way, which bobad did you mean? The "man" known as bobad, or the wimp who posed as an anonymous Guest, bleating about the need to address the issue, not the man, whilst calling us Jew-haters? That bobad? 😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Aug 16 - 06:41 PM

Bubo can't demonstrate that up is up, fer chrissakes, Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Aug 16 - 06:03 PM

Well, bobad, all I'm getting is a hysterical slogan and a kind offer to subscribe to Haaretz. I'd much sooner buy beer. 😂😂😂

By the way, can you demonstrate that the "Jewish community" is feeling "sold out" by Labour?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Aug 16 - 05:56 PM

Sorry, but if you are going to make an accusation (or, in your cases, a smear) that she was PROMISED A PEERAGE IN RETURN FOR A WHITEWASH you must produce the evidence. All I'm hearing from you lot is surmise and conjecture. No smoke without fire, etc., put two and two together and make a hundred and two, but with not a single scrap of substantiation. It's amazing how you lot will defend Boris, Pinochet and Farage who are all bang to rights yet attack a woman who has demonstrated the highest level of integrity in public service for decades, simply because she didn't hang, draw and quarter a few idiots who needed to watch their mouths but who are clearly not antisemitic. Now bloody well piss or get off the pot. Keith said he has the evidence but he can't produce it. You lot are backing him up. What in Christ's name does that say about you? Evidence, please, or just knock it off. The woman in question has a damn sight more integrity than any of you lot could muster in a million years.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Aug 16 - 05:54 PM

You really are a mental case, aren't you.

Asshole, heal thyself. Eyes, beams, motes & etc.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 05 Aug 16 - 05:34 PM

The peerage Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn gave to Shami Chakrabarti, head of the party's latest inquiry into its own anti-Semitism, is an act of stunning hypocrisy and failure of principles, U.K. Jews be damned.

The Labour Party's Cynical Sell-out of the Jewish Community on anti-Semitism

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Aug 16 - 05:28 PM

Suggest that all you "lefties" who reckon that there is nothing untoward about Shami Chakrabarti's peerage, or the timing of it should take a look at the process particularly the timing of it.

Keith A sais the following:

"If she was offered a peerage before the report came out, then it is perfectly reasonable to assume it was intended to influence it."

The process takes quite some time and those so honoured are never taken by surprise when it is announced publicly because they have been forewarned and told of the honour and sworn to secrecy. This is done to avoid the embarrassment that could arise if anyone actually refused the honour. The Chakrabarti Report was dated 30th June, 2016 - A mere five weeks ago, the process would have been started a bit further back than that.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Aug 16 - 05:26 PM

Steve, you said (italics not working again)
"By the way, you alleged that Chakrabarti was promised a peerage in return for a whitewash."

If she was offered a peerage before the report came out, then it is perfectly reasonable to assume it was intended to influence it.

That is why Streeting said it "stinks" and it "undermines" the "remaining credibilty" of her report.

Her interviewer must have known well before about the offer or he would not have raised the issue.
She refused to answer, so she obviously was aware of it too and realised how bad it looked.

Perfectly reasonable my arse. You have failed to produce the evidence that your claim required. Talk about extrapolations and made-up shite. That is a smear. You accuse other people of "smearing" you when the accusations are accurate, then you smear Chakrabarti on completely tenuous grounds. Jesus, you'd have been a great judge for Senator McCarthy, or during the Red Scares. You have about one thousandth of the integrity of Shami Chakrabarti, if that, so it's high time you shut your big gob about her. Next to you, she's a shining star of integrity beside a pile of ordure. Had it been true that she accepted the promise of a peerage in return for producing a whitewash, and that that had been leaked as you claimed, it would have provided the scandal of scandals. But it hasn't. It's produced a few wankers like you and the Tory press trying to make hay, and it's got nowhere. What's your next move? Are you sure that Jeremy doesn't eat babies? This is right up there with your Wheatcroft moment and your spurious claim about the EUMC non-document. You are a disreputable desperado of the worst kind.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Aug 16 - 05:00 PM

"you still haven't responded to the Tory's failure to respond to the calls for an enquiry into racism and Islamophobia - Labour managed it without any trouble"

What calls for an inquiry into racism and Islamophobia?

Labour managed it without any trouble

Labour managed it without any trouble because they contrived to hush it up. While Labour might be rather good at that, the Tories seem to have their act together for a far greater degree when it comes to electing a new leader.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Aug 16 - 04:54 PM

"Whose new rule guidelines?"

Those recommended to Labour's NEC by our new member of the House of Lords Jom.

Key Recommendation No.4 from her Report (But of course you would have known that Jom wouldn't you if you had read it)

"4. Labour members should resist the use of Hitler, Nazi and Holocaust metaphors, distortions and comparisons in debates about Israel-Palestine in particular."

You were drawing such comparisons weren't you Jom - you naughty little "socialist" you - maybe if you apologise they will let you come back and play after you've stood in the corner for the amazingly short time required.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 05 Aug 16 - 03:41 PM

You are an extremist of the type that instigated the murder of six million Jews, along with the mentally ill, Gypsies, left wingers and those considered unfit for society - only this time your target is Arabs rather than Jews.

You really are a mental case, aren't you.....sick, sick, sick!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Aug 16 - 03:34 PM

The fact you referred to Sadiq Khan as the PAKISTANI Mayor of London speaks volumes about your RACISM.

Sadiq Khan was born and raised in London, he describes himself as a Londoner, he is a Londoner and therefore British.

Your referral to his background has everything to do with your RACISM.

You will keep digging because that is what you do. You obviously do not have the wit or intelligence to comprehend that all you type compounds the fact that you are a RACIST. If you want to continue to make it clear that you are a RACIST that that's fine by me.

Please keep digging.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 16 - 03:00 PM

Jim,
"Prove otherwise
Jim Carroll"

I have, every time you dredge it up.
I am happy to go on exposing you dishonesty every time you do it.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 16 - 02:57 PM

Steve, you said (italics not working again)
"By the way, you alleged that Chakrabarti was promised a peerage in return for a whitewash."

If she was offered a peerage before the report came out, then it is perfectly reasonable to assume it was intended to influence it.

That is why Streeting said it "stinks" and it "undermines" the "remaining credibilty" of her report.

Her interviewer must have known well before about the offer or he would not have raised the issue.
She refused to answer, so she obviously was aware of it too and realised how bad it looked.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKutU_BF2Mw

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 16 - 02:50 PM

"You have been trying for over 5 years Jim."
No Keuith - I have being doing so for five years, and will continue to do so for as long as I find it necessary.
I'm ashamed to say I now get some degree of pleasure in watcching you squirm and try to lie your way out of your horrendous statement by blaming somebody else than refusing to reproduce what they say.
Yoy suggested Steve was a racist - he isn't, but you are.
You accuse me of making things up - I don't, you do.
You have no self respect and you continue your dishonest behaviour so the next best thing is to allow you to humiliate yourself further by lying publicly and refusing to produce what you claim somebody said.
No public figure has ever tried to implicate the entire British Pakistani population of having underage sex with children because of their culture - you have.
Steve is not a racist - you are.
Prove otherwise
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 16 - 02:34 PM

I wll remind you of your vicious attack on the Pakistani people

You have been trying for over 5 years Jim.
It will never happen because your accusations are bollocks.

You dredge it all up several times a year, whenever you are losing and argument however irrelevant to the subject, as here you sad man.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 16 - 01:49 PM

"You have a racist's obsession with skin colour."
I have decided that if you ever erfer to anybodya as a ra=cist again I wll remind you of your vicious attack on the Pakistani people
You have been warned
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 16 - 01:31 PM

"Oh dear Jom, if you were in the Labour Party that remark would get you expelled as a racist according to their new rules and guidelines." Whose new rule guidelines?
The Israelis have torn up any guidelines by declaring all criticism Antisemitic and by declaring all Jewish Critics "self hating" which means their definition of Jewish is an extreme right wing political one rather than an Ethno/cultural one - "Israel uber alles".
No political state has a right to make such a definition and under those circumstance, there can be no acceptable definition.
Israel has in fact declared war on large sections of the Jewish People including Israeli citizens - that is not acceptable.
Now - how about trying to respond to that without the contempt and vitriolic bile that you usually use to disguise the fact that you are at a loss for a half-decent answer!!
And you still haven't responded to the Tory's failure to respond to the calls for an enquiry into racism and Islamophobia - Labour managed it without any trouble
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Aug 16 - 01:06 PM

Jim Carroll - 05 Aug 16 - 10:51 AM

"I put you in the caterogory of people who Israelis including ex leaders of Mossad and high ranking military leaders have described as pursuing and supporting policies comparable with those of the Nazis."

Oh dear Jom, if you were in the Labour Party that remark would get you expelled as a racist according to their new rules and guidelines.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Aug 16 - 12:41 PM

By the way, you alleged that Chakrabarti was promised a peerage in return for a whitewash. That this was leaked out. I asked you for evidence of that. I note that you haven't responded. I feel another Wheatcroft episode coming on. Or were you only "speaking generally" again? 😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Aug 16 - 12:35 PM

Round and round and round we go! Back to the good old EUMC definition that was never an official definition, which was pushed hard for by pro-Israel lobby groups and which has been defunct for years. All dealt with, dead and buried in this thread months ago. There was nothing antisemitic in what Ken Livingstone said. He spoke accurately but with execrable timing. No hatred of Jews because they are Jews. Focus, Keith. Antisemitism is all about Jews because they are Jews. It is not about politics or about a country's rulers. Like any large organisation, Labour has an issue with people speaking unwisely or ignorantly. It's just that Labour has had to address it, which it now has. Plenty of rotten apples in the setups you support, don't you worry about that, but they're safe as long as there are no enquiries, aren't they, you hypocrite? You damn well know as well as I do that Ken Livingstone is not antisemitic. Just get real for once, will you. And address your own racism while you're at it. Pakistani mayor, eh? Piccaninnies? Got anything on Maoris, aborigines, redskins or Eskimos while you're at it?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 16 - 12:27 PM

Rag,
Merely because the man has darker skin you immediately describe him as a Pakistani.

You have a racist's obsession with skin colour.
That is not where anyone's heritage comes from!

It comes from being born or adopted into a family of that heritage and growing up within that culture, like both Khan and Yasmin Alibhai Brown.

That is why she describes herself as "Pakistani," though she was not born in Pakistan, is a British citizen and is married to an English man.
Does that make her a racist, silly boys?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 16 - 11:48 AM

Steve,
So, Keith, tell me what they said that I've dismissed.

That Labour has a long standing problem with antisemitism, something you have denied.
You still refuse to recognise the antisemitism in the hateful statements that have led to expulsions and two inquiries.

First, you're obsessed with it.

No, but I always challenge any racism.

Second, you can't define it.

Yes I can. I use the same definitions as the European Parliament Working Group on Antisemitism.
You can find it here,
http://www.antisem.eu/projects/eumc-working-definition-of-antisemitism/

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 16 - 11:15 AM

Lord George Osborne - I rest my case
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Aug 16 - 11:06 AM

Just say "Lord George Osborne" and rest your case, Jim! 😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 16 - 11:01 AM

Nowhere in this argument has any of the Tory flag waggers responded to the fact that the Tories have been accused of Islamophobia and racism, they have yet to even consider enquiring into it, let alone deal with it.
Labour did so immediately and found no problem - the flag waggers continue to wag their flags claiming Labour Antisemitism
Agenda or what?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Aug 16 - 10:58 AM

Ad hominem stupidity is your stock in trade, both as bobad and as the anonymous Guest-coward. It's rich coming from you, is that.

So, Keith, tell me what they said that I've dismissed. As it happens, you have a far greater problem with antisemitism. First, you're obsessed with it. Second, you can't define it. You find someone who said something about Israel that you don't like then build your definition around what they said. Wacky. And I'll tell you summat else. You've shown your racist credentials loud and proud this week, yet you protest and deny it. Wouldn't you have thought you could have been slightly cleverer than to call Sadiq Khan a Pakistani mayor? Clumsy, was it - or yet another example of your innate racism coming out?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 16 - 10:51 AM

" I put you and and your ilk in the former category"
And I put you in the caterogory of people who Israelis including ex leaders of Mossad and high ranking military leaders have described as pursuing and supporting policies comparable with those of the Nazis.
So there uyou go
You are an extremist of the type that instigated the murder of six million Jews, along with the mentally ill, Gypsies, left wingers and those considered unfit for society - only this time your target is Arabs rather than Jews.
If it's alright with you, I'll go with the holocaust survivor mother of an ex-girlfriend who told me "never again - not to anybody".
People like you have betrayed that pledge
The fact that you are not ashamed of that fact makes you what you are.
You and everyone like you are a disgrace - more-so because you slink behind the six million dead to justify your extremism
Your words spoken from another mouth
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 05 Aug 16 - 10:44 AM

They were fighting people like you with the kapo mentality, who licked the hand that was exterminating them

This statement is hysterical - in both meanings of the word.

I note you become more and more frantic to the point of hysterical delusion in your attempt to smear those who challenge your dearly held ideological dogma - you really should take a few deep breaths and calm you mind before posting such ad hominem stupidity.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 05 Aug 16 - 10:34 AM

The Left movement was established by emigre Jews fleeing the 19th century pogroms,

There is a difference between regressive leftists and progressive leftists. I put you and and your ilk in the former category.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 05 Aug 16 - 10:28 AM

Chomsky should stick to linguistics where he has some credibility.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 16 - 10:19 AM

"There you go Steve."
Can't open your link - but the Statement comes from Owen Smith, who is Corbyn's opponent in the laft v right battle for the Labour Leadership
All grist to the political mill
"You have been buried."
Nope - you're the one still up to your neck in claims that British racism of the result of being mirepresented by those who hate Britain
Another claim you and your wannabe-militaristic mate have done a runner from
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Aug 16 - 09:56 AM

It's there for all to see professor

Keep digging, there's a good chap :-)

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Aug 16 - 09:54 AM

Certainly not Greg F.

Right, then, T-Bird - whine all you want, but your total failure to supply any evidence does prove conclusively that you are, indeed, a lying piece of dirt.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 16 - 09:49 AM

Rag,
Keep digging.

No need.
You have been buried.

Now, will you explain your own apparent antisemitism Rag.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 16 - 09:46 AM

From the Labour leadership debate reported in Guardian,

"Labour has been too slow to admit that the party has a problem with antisemitism – something it should be ashamed of, Smith says. "How has this happened?" he asks Corbyn.

Corbyn says many of the cases pre-date his leadership and wants Labour to be inclusive. "
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/aug/04/labour-leadership-debate-jeremy-corbyn-and-owen-smith-in-cardiff-live?page=
There you go Steve.
They both acknowledge that Labour has a long standing "problem with antisemitism."

Why would anyone dismiss what they say and listen to you?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 16 - 09:44 AM

"Maybe among leftist extremists of the regressive persuasion"
So all those who respect Chomsky are " leftist extremists of the regressive persuasion"
Is suppose they are according to extremist right wing Zionists
A reminder that it was the right who condemned six pillion Jews (and regressive left wing extremists) to the gas chambers - you choose your company, I'll choose mine.
The Left movement was established by emigre Jews fleeing the 19th century pogroms, fighting alongside dissefected workers throughout Europe to establish a better world
They were fighting people like you with the kapo mentality, who licked the hand that was exterminating them
Your ancestors must be very proud of you
As they say - you can't choose your relatives, but you can choose your friends.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Aug 16 - 09:43 AM

We don't have to try at all.

To describe a man who was born and raised in Tooting as a Pakistani is all the evidence needed. Merely because the man has darker skin you immediately describe him as a Pakistani.

As he describes himself he is first and foremost he is a Londoner.

I have said it clearly before and I will say it again you are a racist but thanks for the superb confirmation.

Keeping digging !!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 16 - 09:32 AM

Steve,
"Pakistani mayor" is a disgrace. Sadiq Khan is a British citizen,
Oh dear.
Rag,
Classic racism.
A PAKISTANI Mayor ?

What a pair of numpties.
You tried the same smear a few months ago when I referred to Yasmin Alibhai-Brown as Pakistani because she is a British citizen and not born in Pakistan.

How stupid you both looked when I pointed out that she describes herself as Pakistani. It is not necessary to always add "heritage."

If I was was really a racist, you would not have to try so hard to get something on me.
Steve would not have to dredge up a five and a half year old thread and then blatantly lie about it, as he did yesterday.

If only you had a case you could defend in discussion you would not have to resort to lies and smears about me as a person.

Stick to the debate instead of resorting to lying personal attacks, you sad numpties.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 05 Aug 16 - 09:14 AM

it would be the same highly respected Jewish intellectual

Maybe among leftist extremists of the regressive persuasion. In reality he is living proof of the Horseshoe Theory

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 16 - 09:06 AM

"Would this be the same Khmer Rouge apologist Chomsky who claimed that refugees from the Cambodian genocide were "unreliable""
No - it would be the same highly respected Jewish intellectual who has been a long term victim of Israeli propaganda by such organisations as 'The Anti-defamation League'
You forgot to mention the 'respect' in which the ADL is held outside the propaganda circles

"Chomsky is one of the most cited scholars in human history, and has influenced a wide array of academic fields. He is widely recognized as a paradigm shifter who helped spark a major revolution in the human sciences, contributing to the development of a new cognitivistic framework for the study of language and the mind. In addition to his continued scholarly research, he remains a leading critic of U.S. foreign policy, neoliberalism and contemporary state capitalism, the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, and mainstream news media. His ideas in these areas have proved highly significant within the anti-capitalist and anti-imperialist movements, but have also drawn criticism, with some accusing Chomsky of anti-Americanism and alleging that he is sympathetic to terrorism and genocide denial."

"Academic achievements, awards, and honors
In 1970, Chomsky was named one of the "makers of the twentieth century" by The London Times.[163] In early 1969, he delivered the John Locke Lectures at Oxford University; in January 1971, the Bertrand Russell Memorial Lecture at the University of Cambridge, titled "Problems of Knowledge and Freedom"; in 1972, the Nehru Memorial Lecture in New Delhi;[270] in 1975, the Whidden Lectures at McMaster University, titled "Reflections on Language";[111] in 1977, the Huizinga Lecture in Leiden, titled "Intellectuals and the State"; in 1978, the Woodbridge Lectures at Columbia University; in 1979, the Kant Lectures at Stanford University;[270] in 1988, the Massey Lectures at the University of Toronto, titled "Necessary Illusions: Thought Control in Democratic Societies"; in 1997, The Davie Memorial Lecture on Academic Freedom in Cape Town;[271] in 2011, the Rickman Godlee Lecture at University College, London;[272] and many others.[270]
Chomsky has received honorary degrees from many colleges and universities around the world, including from the following:"
Both from his Wiki entry
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 05 Aug 16 - 08:49 AM

Noam Chomsky accuses them....

Would this be the same Khmer Rouge apologist Chomsky who claimed that refugees from the Cambodian genocide were "unreliable" and that "massacre reports were false" ?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 16 - 08:30 AM

"People living in glass houses comes to mind:"
Tour report comes from the Anti-defamation Leage which is nearly as notorious as you for describing all criticism of Israel as "antisemitic"
"The Anti-Defamation League has drawn both criticism and controversy over its priorities. Noam Chomsky accuses them of "having lost entirely its focus on civil rights issues in order to become solely an advocate for Israeli policy". Journalist Mark Arax has criticized the organization's failure to recognize the Armenian Genocide "out of gratitude for Turkey being Israel's one and only Muslim ally".[5] The Washington Post has noted that the ADL has repeatedly accused Israeli policy critic Norman Finkelstein of being a "Holocaust denier" and that "these charges have proved baseless."[6]"
You really scrape the bottom of the barrel for your quotes, don't you?
In my experience, Ireland is notable for its toleration of all religions and races nowadays, certainly since the church has lost its grip.
The one exception is it's disturbing attitude towards Travellers, an attitude shared by Britain and at least one prominent participant in this discussion
By the way, I was born in Britain and lived their pp to 18 years ago.
The Lawrence family's experience of the racist experience of the police was not uncommon and it led to the police declaring themselves "institutionally racist".
You choose to ignore the percentages and put up one man as proof of what exactly
What I have describes is as I described - the experiences of many.
RACISM IN BRITAIN
If you mean by "hate Filled" - yes, I hate you racists - if you are referring to the British people, I most certainly do not
British people are as much victims of the use of racism by the right in Britain as are resident foreigners.
Shortage of work, substandard and overcrowded housing, attacks on "our way of life" - all par for the course by scum like Ukip - the racist nature of the Brexit campaign is fairly typical of that useage.
Before that there was Powell and his "rivers of blood" - even to revealing for the Tories, so they kicked him out as an embarrassment.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Aug 16 - 08:24 AM

Leaked out, was it then? Evidence, please.

I don't care what the NEC or the Chief Rabbi or anyone else says because I can THINK FOR MYSELF. I know what those five said and I know they were idiots but not antisemitic. No-one in the NEC has said that such-and-such is an antisemite. I've repeatedly asked you for quotes to that effect and you've repeatedly failed to come up with any. It's all just your deluded interpretation based on a definition off antisemitism that suits your agenda. As for Shami Chakrabarti, I'm now repeatedly asking you for any dirt on her from her past that you have. You can't, because there isn't any. Prove that she was promised a peerage in return for a whitewash. You can't because that is not what happened. What she said in her critical report is in perfect harmony with what we know the accused people said: there were ignorant comments made, there is an issue that must be addressed but the party is not overrun by antisemitism. Of course it isn't, you clod. Now when you have a minute, perhaps you could address the blatant and farcical cronyism shown by Cameron in his resignation honours. Go on, prove that you're not a bigot and a hypocrite. It'll be bloody hard work.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Aug 16 - 07:58 AM

I am pretty certain that Jim is not responsible for anti-Semitism in 20% of the Irish population, even if that figure were to be correct.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 05 Aug 16 - 07:47 AM

As I said London is the most racist city I have ever lived in

People living in glass houses comes to mind: One in five Irish express anti-Semitic attitudes

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Aug 16 - 07:42 AM

He describes his wife and himself as being Londoners first and foremost. Not Asian first and foremost, not of Pakistani Heritage first and foremost but Londoners.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 16 - 07:24 AM

How was my quote selective?
After the election campaign, about everyone in UK already knows, "I was born in London and have lived here all my life. My wife's a Londoner too and we're raising our two daughters here. " just as we all know his Dad is was a bus driver.
I was interested in is opinion of London to compare with Jim's prejudiced and hate-filled statement, "London is the mostr racist city I have ever lived in - ask anybody whose been stopped and searched, or you might try Stephen Lawrence's parents."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 16 - 07:24 AM

"Got what Keith exactly Keith?"
Mind your own business - I'll decide whether I' talking to the organ grinder r the monkey?
Children should be seen and not heard
"That your demented, prejudiced view of London is not shared by Khan,"
Can't speak about Khan - don't know his background
My customers had petrol and dogshit put through letter boxes, had their propertied dauded with racist abuse and worried themselves sick about sending their kids to school.
The black kids in families I worked for were regularly stopped and searched by a police force who were reluctantly forced to admith themselves as being "institutionally recist" following the murder of Stephen Lawrence - a decade later they were again forced top admit that little had changed in that period.
I experienced anti-Irish prejudice regularly to the extent that one customer told me "we have Irish neighbors so we check under our car every morning before we drive off".
I regularly hear talk of "dirty Pakis" often from work mates who otherwise, were kind tolerant people.
Workign with Travellers was like being in a war zone, what with local prejudice and police corruption in demanding bribes to let them drink after hours or stay longer on unofficial sites
All this is well documented and acknowledged, by the Travellers and their support groups, which included legal people.
As I pointed out - one their of those asked in a survey a few years ago openly admitted themselves to be racist - all documented again
May not on the privileged Planet Zog where you appear to be a resident.
Bristish racism is a long established legacy of Empire.
"Huh? What over-representation"
Huh - what business is that of yours - I was taking to the monkey - you're forgetting you place again.
"I think you have just made that up Jim."
No - your problem is you never think
Look up the reference on Wiki - you insulting half-wit, part of the quote in in inverted commas m- I leave the "making up to you and Keith.
"In 2011 a number of articles appeared in the British newspaper the Jewish Chronicle that sought to question the work and functioning of the CST. Dr Gilbert Kahn, of Kean University in the USA, took the view that British Jewry did not need a CST because British Jews paid taxes to the state for their physical protection and could therefore depend on the police. On 15 April the JC's resident columnist, Professor Geoffrey Alderman, argued against the CST on the grounds that its leadership and funding were neither transparent nor ACCOUNTABLE. Alderman returned to the subject on 10 June, when he speculated that his doubts about the CST and its work were more widely shared.[6][7]
In May 2014, it was revealed that the chief executive of the CST is the highest paid of all charity leaders within the British Jewish community, earning between £170,000-£190,000 per annum.[8]"
Full quote
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Aug 16 - 06:54 AM

Selective cut and pastes again from the professor. His quote comes from the "My Story" page on Sadiq Khan website.

The whole sentence reads:

"I was born in London and have lived here all my life. My wife's a Londoner too and we're raising our two daughters here. Our family story is one of how London helped us succeed"

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 16 - 06:46 AM

Steve,

The five names you named have not had the badge of antisemitism pinned on them except by apologists of the Israeli regime.

That is the Labour NEC and senior members!

digging up tabloid articles or polemic from the Jewish Chronicle
Tabloids?? I dug up 2 from the Guardian and one from ITV.

from the Jewish Chronicle and the Chief Rabbi?

I have posed nothing from the Jewish Chronicle, but I do think that Jews have a right to be heard on issues of antisemitism.
Presumably you don't!

Have any of you got the slightest shred of evidence that she was offered a peerage in advance in return for a bland report?

Yes. It had leaked out that she was promised one at the time. Plenty of references to that. Why else would she join the Party so soon after being appointed as an "independent" chair, which itself was disreputable.

tell us when her integrity has ever taken even the slightest knock.
See previous answer.

I should think that this disgraceful remark is verging on the actionable.

What about Labour MP Wes Streeting's remark, " let's not pretend that a Labour peerage in these circumstances doesn't stink."

Perhaps he is not a Jew so it is OK.

Jim,
Got what Keith exactly Keith?

That your demented, prejudiced view of London is not shared by Khan, or anyone else in the world.
He said, "Our family story is one of how London has helped us succeed."

It's been revealed this morning that six million adults, one in fourteen of the British population, have suffered physical, mental or sexual abuse as children - you'd have to work hard to beat that over-representation

Huh? What over-representation?

The Jewish(sic) Security trust has been described by The Jewish Chronicle as an unnecessary, self serving organisation.

I think you have just made that up Jim.
"The CST provides security advice and training for Jewish schools, synagogues and communal organisations and gives assistance to those bodies that are affected by antisemitism. The CST also assists and supports individual members of the Jewish community who have been affected by antisemitism and antisemitic incidents. It advises and represents the Jewish community on matters of antisemitism, terrorism and security and works with police, government and international bodies. All this work is provided at no charge.

The CST has recorded antisemitic incidents in the UK since 1994 and publishes an annual Antisemitic Incidents Report. The CST also published Terrorist Incidents against Jewish Communities and Israeli Citizens Abroad 1968-2010, a definitive report of terrorist attacks against Jewish communities around the world.

The CST provides security advice and training for Jewish schools, synagogues and communal organisations and gives assistance to those bodies that are affected by antisemitism. The CST also assists and supports individual members of the Jewish community who have been affected by antisemitism and antisemitic incidents. It advises and represents the Jewish community on matters of antisemitism, terrorism and security and works with police, government and international bodies. All this work is provided at no charge.

The CST has recorded antisemitic incidents in the UK since 1994 and publishes an annual Antisemitic Incidents Report. The CST also published Terrorist Incidents against Jewish Communities and Israeli Citizens Abroad 1968-2010, a definitive report of terrorist attacks against Jewish communities around the world.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Aug 16 - 06:20 AM

"Pakistani mayor" is a disgrace. Sadiq Khan is a British citizen, born in London into a British Pakistani family. It takes just a little effort to get it right and stop being a racist, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 16 - 06:15 AM

"Got that Jim?"
Got what Keith exactly Keith?
Because one individual rises to the top doesn't mean there are not many millions who suffer racial abuse on a daily basis
It is indicated by surveys that one third of the British population hold and have expressed racist views.
I know the commonplace nature of racism in London from working there for thirty years and encountering examples of it on an almost daily basis
Got that Keith
By the ay - regarding your Paistani implant and over-representation claim
It's been revealed this morning that six million adults, one in fourteen of the British population, have suffered physical, mental or sexual abuse as children - you'd have to work hard to beat that over-representation
Ethnic diversity does not mean that racism isn;'t rampant - in fact, the number of non Brits living in Britain is the red rag that you people need to stir it up.
"Kitchener's resignation "
Kitchener was forced to tender his resignation on the basis of his blundering which caused the death of countless numbers of servicemen - which I corrected you on.
"What "racist" attack on Obama?"
Been there - done that - he even apologised for his Alf Garnett like slip.
You know this and your Dalek-like repetition of the question makes you the airhead flag-wagger you are
"The Labour leader has broken a pledge not to nominate people for peerages by handing the lawyer and human rights campaigner a seat in the Lords."
Wouldn't go there after the fiasco of Cameron's honours list, if I were you.
"Her appointment drew fury from Jewish leaders, with the Community Security Trust"
The Jewish Security trust has been described by The Jewish Chronicle as an unnecessary, self serving organisation.
"In May 2014, it was revealed that the chief executive of the CST is the highest paid of all charity leaders within the British Jewish community, earning between £170,000-£190,000 per annum
Now why not gop away and learn some manners and come back when you have overcome your appalling upbringing - you arrogant know-nothing
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Aug 16 - 06:11 AM

"Marie van der Zyl, vice president of the Board of Deputies of British Jews, said it was "beyond disappointing" that Ms Chakrabarti had been offered and accepted the title.

"This 'whitewash for peerages' is a scandal that surely raises serious questions about the integrity of Ms Chakrabarti, her inquiry and the Labour leadership," she said."

I should think that this disgraceful remark is verging on the actionable.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Aug 16 - 06:04 AM

Please tell us, Teribus, who on this forum has said that Boris should be "barred from public office." Join Keith's mind-reading club...

The five names you named have not had the badge of antisemitism pinned on them except by apologists of the Israeli regime. None of them made a remark directed at Jews because they are Jews, which isn't to say they weren't being idiots. Why don't you stop digging dirt and look at what they actually said and THINK FOR YOURSELF instead of digging up tabloid articles or polemic from the Jewish Chronicle and the Chief Rabbi? You make up your own definition to fit the "accused" then you smear away. Not exactly honest.

As for Shami, well let's see. Have any of you got the slightest shred of evidence that she was offered a peerage in advance in return for a bland report? Any at all? Time to put up or shut up. Your lynch mob mentality is getting tiresome. "Oh, it's bleeding obvious innit, who needs more?" is as close as you intellectual giants have got so far. It's true that Labour's spin machine is in the junkyard. Wonder what you'd be saying if we brought Alastair Campbell and Peter Mandelson back? 😂😂😂. You could start by closely examining Shami's long and distinguished career in public service and tell us when her integrity has ever taken even the slightest knock. Now there's a job for you. A bit harder, you'll find, than making cheap smears.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 16 - 05:43 AM

Pakistani heritage, being son of parents born in Pakistan.
He says, "Our family story is one of how London has helped us succeed."
Got that Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Aug 16 - 04:28 AM

" London has a staunchly Labour voting electorate, and has just elected a Pakistani Mayor, so you are talking bollocks as usual"

Classic racism.

A PAKISTANI Mayor ?

Do you mean Sadiq Khan, the one born in Tooting, South London.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 16 - 04:27 AM

Guardian today,
"Labour's deputy leader, Tom Watson, has criticised his party's decision to nominate the human rights and civil liberties campaigner Shami Chakrabarti for a peerage, saying it was "a mistake" and that he had not been consulted.

"The timing is not great for the Labour party," Watson told BBC Radio 4's Today programme following Jeremy Corbyn's decision to put Chakrabarti forward, a move that has attracted condemnation from other Labour MPs.

"I wasn't aware, I wasn't consulted whether Shami was going in. I didn't know that we'd provided citations for this particular round, and I do think it's a mistake," Watson said."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 16 - 04:24 AM

Guardian on Chakrabarti peerage,

"a number of Labour MPs criticised the party leader's decision to nominate her, given the row over cronyism engulfing David Cameron and No 10.

Wes Streeting, Labour MP for Ilford North, said: "With just one Lords appointment, Corbyn has undermined criticism of Cameron's list and the remaining credibility of his antisemitism inquiry."

Tom Watson, the Labour deputy leader, is understood not to have been consulted about the choice and believes the party should be boycotting the whole system."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 16 - 04:18 AM

ITV today, about Chakrabarti being rewarded by Corbyn with a peerage,

"Shami Chakrabarti, former Liberty chief, faced questions about her independence during the inquiry after she revealed that she had become a member of the Labour party.

Ephraim Mirvis(Chief Rabbi) said in a statement on Twitter: "Shami Chakrabarti has a proud record of public service, but in accepting this peerage, the credibility of her report lies in tatters and the Labour Party's stated intention, to unequivocally tackle anti-Semitism, remains woefully unrealised."

"Labour MPs also expressed concern over the appointment.

Wes Streeting, MP for Ilford North, said: "Shami Chakrabarti will bring great experience to Lords. But let's not pretend that a Labour peerage in these circumstances doesn't stink.""

"Marie van der Zyl, vice president of the Board of Deputies of British Jews, said it was "beyond disappointing" that Ms Chakrabarti had been offered and accepted the title.

"This 'whitewash for peerages' is a scandal that surely raises serious questions about the integrity of Ms Chakrabarti, her inquiry and the Labour leadership," she said."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 16 - 04:10 AM

Jim,
As I said London is the most racist city I have ever lived in
Johnson is a racist

London is one of the most ethnically diverse cities on Earth. In 2007 there were over 300 languages spoken in it and more than 50 non-indigenous communities with a population of more than 10,000.
White British are actually a minority in London.
London has a staunchly Labour voting electorate, and has just elected a Pakistani Mayor, so you are talking bollocks as usual.
London would never elect anyone, let alone a Tory, if they believed he was racist.
No-one believes that shit.

Steve,

No-one has named names, no-one has declared that any individual is antisemitic and you allege big cover-ups

Labour has not named names, but we know who some of the 50 are.
It has been declared that all those people made antisemitic outbursts.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Aug 16 - 04:06 AM

See the bill's been paid - Jeremy Corbyn has put Shami Chakrabarti into the House of Lords:

"Shami Chakrabarti has been given a peerage by Jeremy Corbyn weeks after her report on anti-Semitism in Labour was condemned as a 'whitewash'.

The Labour leader has broken a pledge not to nominate people for peerages by handing the lawyer and human rights campaigner a seat in the Lords.

Her appointment drew fury from Jewish leaders, with the Community Security Trust, an anti-Semitism charity, saying it was a 'shameless kick in the teeth for all who put hope in her now wholly compromised inquiry.'

Key words for the gang of "usual suspects" on this forum:

'whitewash'; 'broken pledge'; 'wholly compromised inquiry'

Jim Carroll - 05 Aug 16 - 02:44 AM

Back for more punishment:

"Johnson is a serial racist - his racist attack on Obama happened in 2009"

What "racist" attack on Obama?

That idiotic "myth" has been well and truly exploded, even Barack Obama himself said it was not "racist" and he most certainly was not offended by Boris Johnson reporting what someone else had offered up as a possible explanation why a certain bust had been moved in the White House.

Trouble is Jim you only ever read what you want to see, you pay no attention to the text of anything you read.

Examples:

Kitchener's resignation - (Which I corrected you on)
The wrong sized shells (Your original claim - which both Keith A and myself corrected you on)
Boris Johnson wrote that Blacks have lower IQ's - Truth was he wrote no such thing (Which I corrected you on)
"Racist" attack on Barack Obama. (Which I corrected you on)

Loads more Jom - I might even start a thread on Jom's "myths", lies and "Made-Up-Shit".

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 16 - 03:50 AM

By the way
"some think he made "racist" remarks 14 years ago and apologised for them 10 years ago"
If he apologised for them 10 years ago he must have said them 14 years (sic) ago so there's no "some people think" about anything - he said what he said making him what he is.
You really are inarticulate in your desperation to appease racism, aren't you?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 16 - 02:44 AM

"Are you being deliberately obtuse Shaw, or are you just incapable of comprehension?"
No need to ask whether you are being your arrogant fascist self!
What have you been told about speaking down to people from your hole in the ground
Johnson is a serial racist - his racist attack on Obama happened in 2009 -, not 14 years ago- maths seems to be another of your mental black holes.
Yes - it is obvious why Johnson was appointed to the post - to clear the way for Theresa May's election as PM.
Why else would a knuckles-along-the-ground racist, sexist, semi-articulate moron be appointed to such a position?   
It's fascinating to watch a couple of Empire Loyalist flag waggers running around like a couple of blue-arsed cockroaches, on the one had desperately defending the appointment of a racist foreign secretary while, at the same time still claiming institution racism in the Labour Party long after the rest of the world have walked away from it - even The Jewish Chronicle.
Still silent on the Tories total failure to carry out an investigation into Islamophobia!!!!
Back to the kitchen, Kitchener.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Aug 16 - 02:44 AM

Steve Shaw - 04 Aug 16 - 04:46 PM

"I don't, but we do know a few names of those Labour people guilty of antisemitic outbursts."

No-one has named names

Roughly 50 Labour Party members were suspended, we do not know the names of all of them but we know the following 10%:

Naz Shah
Shah Hussain
Salim Mullah
Ilyas Aziz
Ken Livingston

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Aug 16 - 02:24 AM

Greg F. - 04 Aug 16 - 06:02 PM

Certainly not Greg F. - but your responses have perfectly proved what I have always known about you, and those like you on this forum - you are all bloody good kids when it comes to dishing it out, but you squeal like stuck pigs the instant that you feel you are on the receiving end.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Aug 16 - 02:13 AM

Steve Shaw - 04 Aug 16 - 04:13 PM

"Come off it. You are saying quite clearly that Labour's woes are worse because they are current and that Boris's woes are less important because they were a while ago. What a completely ludicrous argument, even for you."

Are you being deliberately obtuse Shaw, or are you just incapable of comprehension?

What I am have been demonstrating is that as far as some are concerned for a Labour MP who has in the past, by her own admission, made racist remarks a simple apology is enough to wipe the slate clean and allows her to resume her career in politics with her reputation unblemished. Different thing entirely for those same people on this forum however if the politician happens to be from the Conservative Party he must be barred from holding any Office because some think he made "racist" remarks 14 years ago and apologised for them 10 years ago. If you cannot see the difference in the treatment being handed out in those two cases Shaw then you are beyond all hope.

Back on the subject of the thread, there was a very good reason why Theresa May appointed Boris Johnson Foreign Secretary and it has obviously escaped the notice of the likes of you, Raggy and Jom. Boris Johnson led the Brexit "Leave" campaign in the UK - As the UK's Foreign Secretary, after the UK's Prime Minister, he, Boris Johnson will be the UK's main representative in the EU Council of Ministers until the time we come to actually leave.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Aug 16 - 08:43 PM

Yes, his recent rather respectable links haven't exactly helped Keith, have they? Fancy coming over to the dark side, bobad? We're all fluffy bunnies, you know! 😈🐇🐇🐇

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Aug 16 - 08:32 PM

Laugh's on you, Bubo.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 04 Aug 16 - 06:38 PM

Heh, heh!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Aug 16 - 06:02 PM

I know Greg F. but don't worry you'll get used to it

So, T-Bird, you're ADMITTING that you're a lying piece of dirt?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Aug 16 - 04:46 PM

"I don't, but we do know a few names of those Labour people guilty of antisemitic outbursts."

No-one has named names, no-one has declared that any individual is antisemitic and you allege big cover-ups (do you actually know what "cover-up" means, Keith? It means that you don't know the facts because THEY HAVE BEEN HIDDEN FROM YOU), yet Keith The Superior Being, Keith the Judge, Jury and Executioner, knows things that no-one else knows! Let's face it, you alleged Christian. You are in breach of the Word of the Lord. Judge not, lest YOU be judged. Not only that, you are judging according to arbitrary criteria drawn up by you and your fellow travellers on the far right and from the ranks of the apologists for the Israeli regime. You know damn well that, in their heart of hearts, not ONE of the people in Labour who you brand as antisemitic "hates Jews because they are Jews." You have a very dishonest political agenda, which is to blacken the Labour Party, which you hate, at all costs. This is your thread and all that is contained in the thread title and in your opening post. You are the most dishonest person I've ever come across, and that's a tough call considering who your pathetic allies are in this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Aug 16 - 04:13 PM

Come off it. You are saying quite clearly that Labour's woes are worse because they are current and that Boris's woes are less important because they were a while ago. What a completely ludicrous argument, even for you.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Aug 16 - 04:01 PM

Steve Shaw - 04 Aug 16 - 03:54 PM

"Current?" What has that got to do with it?

Everything and you would know that had you read the recommendations put forward by Shami Chakrabarti.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Aug 16 - 03:56 PM

Greg F. - 04 Aug 16 - 03:01 PM

"So Bubo & T-Bird: - stll no facts or substantion, just lying accusations, insults and bullshit."

I know Greg F. but don't worry you'll get used to it - myself, bobad, akenaton and Keith A have been having to put up with it for years now.... 😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Aug 16 - 03:54 PM

"Current?" What has that got to do with it? If "current" trumps "historic," we'd still be watching Jim'll Fix It repeats on children's telly! 😂😂😂 As for Tory cover-ups, well watch this bloody space!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 16 - 03:22 PM

"Did he Jom?"
Yes he did Adolph
None of your ramblings show otherwise - especially as onec againn, you didn't link anything.
Back to your looking after the General
"No-one ever claimed that."
You claimed a serious problem then you went on to claiming a cover up
Sounds pretty "institution" to me if the institution is "covering it up"
It now transpiring that they were "covering up" the fact that there was no major problem and what little was discovered was not worth a mention in the Jewish Chronicle artificial - now why do yuo think they "covered that up"?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Aug 16 - 03:01 PM

From: bobad - PM
Date: 04 Aug 16 - 01:32 PM
You beat me to it.

From: Teribus - PM
Date: 04 Aug 16 - 01:23 PM
No Greg F. miniature mind.

So Bubo & T-Bird: - stll no facts or substantion, just lying accusations, insults and bullshit.

As always, no surprises there!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Aug 16 - 02:48 PM

"He described Obama's supposed dislike of Britain as being because his father was from Kenya"

Did he Jom?

Here is the BBC's take on it:

"A Churchill bust lent to President George Bush by Tony Blair was removed from the Oval Office along with other art lent to the Bush presidency after Mr Obama's 2009 inauguration "as is common practice at the end of every presidency", the White House said at the time.

A separate bust of Britain's wartime leader, that has been in the White House since the early 1960s, remains on display.

Mr Johnson said in his article: "No-one was sure whether the president had himself been involved in the decision", adding: "Some said it was a snub to Britain. Some said it was a symbol of the part-Kenyan president's ancestral dislike of the British Empire - of which Churchill had been such a fervent defender."

"SOME SAID" - Boris Johnson is merely reported possible reasons GIVEN BY OTHERS to explain the removal of the bust from the Oval Office. At no time at all did Boris Johnson say that HE THOUGH OR BELIEVED that.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 04 Aug 16 - 02:42 PM

Keep digging professor Racist.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 16 - 02:06 PM

"Rubbish. London has a staunchly Labour"
Over the last fifteen years the percentage turnout in the General election had been 60 to seventy percent - no indication of the racist views of the people who vote.
Boris Johnson can't be a racist because he was elected as Mayor - what another incredibly stupid argument
So was Ken Livingstone.
As I said London is the most racist city I have ever lived in
Johnson is a racist
He described Obama's supposed dislike of Britain as being because his father was from Kenya - racist racial stereotyping, as editor, he accepted an article claiming black people have lower I.Qs, racist appeasement, and he referred to Piccaninnys with watermelon smiles - use of an accepted racist term percieved as such since as far as the 1960 in Britain.
The crass argument that this is only by Americans is a stupid one by our resident Walter Mitty as Johnson chose American imagery to make his racist insult - WATERMELON SMILE - is a deliberate racist stereotype.
"Great news - The report that Labour tried to suppress has been revealed!"
Great news - it doesn't reveal any serious Antisemitism either in examples nor in numbers.
So seroious did the Jewish Chronicle consider it that they didn';t bother to publish any incidents - serious or otherwise and they referred to only "some" - not tens hundreds, thousands... just some, which has been the point peole have been making.
The bit Keith left out was Royall's comment:
"The report that Labour tried to suppress has been revealed!"
Wonder why?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 16 - 01:46 PM

in the case of Boris Johnson 14 years in order to make their case.

And then fail to make it!

Neither report claims institutional antisemitism,

No-one ever claimed that.

neither report claims concerted or deliberate antisemitism

Yes they do.

and neither report NAMES NAMES.

You approve of that?
I don't, but we do know a few names of those Labour people guilty of antisemitic outbursts.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Aug 16 - 01:33 PM

Steve Shaw - 04 Aug 16 - 12:00 PM

"Which is precisely what has happened apropos of "antisemitism" in the Labour Party"

Apart from the fact that Labour's anti-Semitism row is current and involves a deliberate "cover-up" on the part of the NEC. While to show that the Conservative Party is just as bad if not worse the usual suspects here and those in the Labour Party have to go back in one case 31 years and in the case of Boris Johnson 14 years in order to make their case.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 04 Aug 16 - 01:32 PM

You beat me to it.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Aug 16 - 01:23 PM

Greg F. - 04 Aug 16 - 12:54 PM

No Greg F. miniature mind.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Aug 16 - 01:11 PM

Oops, my 12.09 post was aimed at the wrong person. Apologies for that. Clearly I was referring to Teribus's overt allegiances.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Aug 16 - 01:06 PM

Well, Keith, so what's new? 😂 She said:

... it was "not clear" if incidents were deliberately anti-Semitic, and there was "no value in pursuing disciplinary cases" against students who could simply benefit from training.

However, she warned: "There should be no doubt that any more complaints may lead to further disciplinary action."

I'd say a well-deserved slap on the wrist, wouldn't you, Keith? Neither report claims institutional antisemitism, neither report claims concerted or deliberate antisemitism and neither report NAMES NAMES. Bit of tabloid non-news sensationalism bigged up by the Jewish Chronicle, eh, Keith? Well who'd have thought it! 😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Aug 16 - 12:54 PM

Make that "time" and "hone". miniature keyboard.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Aug 16 - 12:53 PM

Greg, are you saying that you do not support or defend Hamas?

No, professor, I'm saying that T-bird's lying claim that I "support Hamas" is complete bullshit. Timwe to home your English language comprehension skills.

Now, as for the rest of your drivel, as I've said before, I'm not going to play your childish games.

Time for your nap.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Aug 16 - 12:48 PM

"WE" are waiting Greg F. ?? That the "royal" we?

No, T-Bird, that's a first-person, plural personal pronoun (nominative case).

RE-read 03 Aug 16 - 08:49 AM this time for comprehansion.

So you have nothing to substantiate your original,lying, bullshit claim. No surprise there.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 16 - 12:37 PM

"There is too often a real, sometimes perceived, culture of intolerance where Jews are concerned and there are clear incidents of antisemitism"
http://www.savelabourparty.com/labour-probe-finds-anti-semitism-at-oxford-university-left-jewish-members-intimidated/

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 16 - 12:20 PM

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/report-labour-tried-keep-secret-8551170

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 16 - 12:14 PM

Great News.
The report that Labour tried to suppress has been revealed!

Daily Mirror,
"In the full 13-page report, leaked to the Jewish Chronicle, she wrote: "It is clear to me from the weight of witnessed allegations received that there have been some incidents of antisemitic behaviour and that it is appropriate for the disciplinary procedures of our party to be invoked."

"Her introduction, also not released, added: "I was dismayed and ashamed that the ancient virus of anti-Semitism had infected our party." "

"Baroness Royall's report expressed "regret" that incidents were not reported at the time because of a "lack of an effective complaints procedure".

And it said: "Some Jewish members do not feel comfortable attending the meetings, let alone participating." "

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Aug 16 - 12:09 PM

Go on Greg, tell 'im. After all, he throws his toys out the pram every time someone attacks his beloved Maggie, and we now know that he's Augusto's numero uno fan! Don't you just love a man who's so open!

Of course, we could just tell him that we support and defend the ordinary people of both Palestine and Israel, wishing them peace, security and prosperity, and lament the fact that they've both got stinking rotten regimes... I'm reminded of all those inane interviewers in the 1980s who used to bray at Gerry Adams to get him to "condemn the IRA." The world is so black and white, isn't it, Teribus? 😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Aug 16 - 12:00 PM

...it would appear that the remarks were only "racist" and "offensive" to those who sought to gain political capital by portraying them as being "racist" and "offensive".

Which is precisely what has happened apropos of "antisemitism" in the Labour Party, in that case the whole thing blown out of proportion by right-wing and pro-Israel factions both inside and outside the Labour Party in order to gain political capital.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Aug 16 - 11:47 AM

The remarks would have been racist and offensive if someone had thought so when they first appeared in print, They didn't though did they? The remarks were dragged up as part of Ken Livingston's attempt to smear Boris Johnson in the election to the position of Mayor of London years later so it would appear that the remarks were only "racist" and "offensive" to those who sought to gain political capital by portraying them as being "racist" and "offensive".

Funny isn't it that the person who complained out Boris being "racist" and "offensive" proved to be not beyond being racist and offensive himself to the extent that by being so he was suspended from the Labour Party as he had brought that political party into disrepute.

By the way who is in denial about what? The plain truth is that Labour's NEC ordered an inquiry into anti-Semitism and found the resulting report too embarrassing to allow its contents to be made public - so they buried it.

It would appear that for you and your pals it is perfectly OK for someone in the Labour Party, who is a self-confessed racist, to get off the hook by making an apology - but a Conservative who made remarks in 2002 that were belatedly deemed by some to be "racist" and "offensive" and for which that person apologised for any offence caused about ten years ago now should not be eligible for any post in Government, That Raggy, is what I call bare-faced hypocrisy.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 16 - 11:44 AM

Greg, are you saying that you do not support or defend Hamas?
Will you say that now?

Why have you never once criticised Hamas?
You criticise Israel all the time.
Why do you treat them so differently?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 16 - 11:41 AM

Rag,
Johnson apologised for using the term, why would he do that if it wasn't racist and offensive.

He only apologised for any offence, as politicians always do.

He acknowledge the word was racist

He did not! You are making shit up Rag.
He denied any racism.

Keep digging.

No need.
You have been buried.
You have produced nothing to show that the P word is racist outside USA, because you can't.

Now, will you explain your own apparent antisemitism Rag.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 04 Aug 16 - 10:32 AM

Why do you type "racist" and "offensive" instead of racist and offensive.

Someone else in denial perhaps.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 04 Aug 16 - 10:19 AM

"And he apologised for that and for any offence caused. Now while it appears to be enough for Labour MPs to escape censure for causing offence and making "racist" remarks by apologising - that is not acceptable if you happen to be a Conservative ("One sauce for the Goose another for the Gander" - So much for "equality eh Raggy)"

Tell your mate who is in denial over this.

PS It's not "racist" it's racist.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Aug 16 - 10:10 AM

Raggytash - 04 Aug 16 - 09:32 AM

As I said earlier Teri, as Editor Johnson was ultimately responsible for articles printed in the Spectator.

He allowed a racist and offensive article to be printed so he must carry the can.

And he apologised for that and for any offence caused. Now while it appears to be enough for Labour MPs to escape censure for causing offence and making "racist" remarks by apologising - that is not acceptable if you happen to be a Conservative ("One sauce for the Goose another for the Gander" - So much for "equality eh Raggy).

"As to the other article it matter not one jot that it was about the Queen or the Commonwealth. Johnson used a word that was racist and offensive.

He issued an apology for the use of the word. FULL STOP. No if's, no but's, no maybe's. He acknowledge the word was racist and offensive."

Well that is not really true is it Raggy:

1: Written in 2002 nobody objected to the article at the time - that would come years later.

2: He did apologise for any offence caused but in making that apology he did state that what had been written had been taken out of context and that in content and in context what he had written was neither "racist" or "offensive".

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Aug 16 - 09:58 AM

Well, Keith-the-prosecutor-judge-and-jury-man who stated that Naz Shah was antisemitic, would you kindly note that even Haaretz only refers to "accusations of antisemitism" and "reported antisemitism" and does not pin the badge on anyone, as you have unjustifiably done (I also note with amusement that MPs are now "lawmakers" according to Haaretz, twice, but we'll let that pass). Anyway, cheers to bobad for producing material that should help Keith to moderate his tone, not for the first time either! 😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Aug 16 - 09:35 AM

"WE" are waiting Greg F. ??

That the "royal" we?

What is it that you are waiting for? Answers to specific questions? Substantiation of something said?

If so Greg F. I would like to remind you and your pals that you have got quite a back-log of your own to clear first - I'll wait for that to be done first.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 04 Aug 16 - 09:32 AM

As I said earlier Teri, as Editor Johnson was ultimately responsible for articles printed in the Spectator.

He allowed a racist and offensive article to be printed so he must carry the can.

As to the other article it matter not one jot that it was about the Queen or the Commonwealth. Johnson used a word that was racist and offensive.

He issued an apology for the use of the word. FULL STOP. No if's, no but's, no maybe's. He acknowledge the word was racist and offensive.

It would seem there are two people who do not recognise this truth.

However I am enjoying watching the professor dig a deeper and deeper hole.

Carry on professor !! Keep digging !!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 04 Aug 16 - 09:22 AM

From Haaretz today:

REUTERS - The number of anti-Semitic incidents in Britain rose by 11 percent in the first six months of the year reflecting a worrying trend of intolerance across the country, a Jewish advisory body said on Thursday.

The Community Security Trust, which advises Britain's estimated 260,000 Jews on security matters, recorded 557 incidents from January until June, the second highest number for the first period of a year since it started collecting figures in 1984.

The year-on-year rise comes at a time when politicians and police have warned about growing levels of hate crimes since Britons voted to leave the European Union on June 23, with Muslims and Eastern Europeans particularly targeted, although the CST said it had not seen a spike after the referendum.

It also follows accusations of anti-Semitism against figures in the opposition Labour Party.

"This rise in reported anti-Semitism comes at a time when division, intolerance and prejudice appear to be deepening within our society," said CST Chief Executive David Delew.

"Reversing this worrying trend requires real leadership from all political parties, and for the social media companies to take their share of the responsibility."

In its report, the CST said the average monthly number of hate incidents directed at the Jewish community was now almost double that recorded in 2011-13.

Social media was the medium for almost a quarter of all incidents and had become an "essential tool" for campaigns of anti-Semitic harassment aimed at Jewish public figures and politicians.

One Labour Jewish lawmaker, Luciana Berger, reported in April she had received thousands of online abusive messages including threats to rape her.

The CST said most of the occurrences took place in April, May and June when anti-Semitism was in the news with Berger's disclosure and Labour launching an inquiry into whether the party had a problem in its ranks ranging from a former London Mayor to Oxford University students.

"The message should go out to everyone that we will not stand for anti-Semitism. Perpetrators of hate crimes against Jews will be caught and prosecuted and the bystanders must be educated," said lawmaker John Mann, chairman of the All-Party Parliamentary Group Against Antisemitism.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Aug 16 - 09:22 AM

Raggytash - 04 Aug 16 - 04:51 AM

You are drawing attention to two completely different things.

The IQ thing was something that someone else wrote that appeared in the Spectator while Boris Johnson was it's Editor.

The other instance which when put in context referred to the Queen, the Commonwealth and children waving flags was written by Boris Johnson and he penned that in 2002. As Keith A states no-one objected to it at that time, and it was only dragged to smear Johnson in the London Mayoral election by Ken Livingston - where the electorate of London were so incensed by Johnsons "racist" remarks that they elected him not once but twice.

There is a thread above the line about a Ewan MacColl cartoon that has appeared in Private Eye - There is a link to it showing the cartoon. Those who are minded enough to, could quite easily claim the cartoon to be "racist" and offensive pandering as it appears to, to racial stereotypes. Certainly more "racist" than anything Boris Johnson has said.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 04 Aug 16 - 09:14 AM

Yet more denial professor.

Johnson apologised for using the term, why would he do that if it wasn't racist and offensive.

However keep digging, each time you express your support for the use of the word it merely shouts out I AM A RACIST !

As I say please keep digging, it's very amusing.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 16 - 09:10 AM

Rag,
Keep digging.

No need.
You have been buried.
You have produced nothing to show that the P word is racist outside USA, because you can't.

Now, will you explain your own apparent antisemitism Rag.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Aug 16 - 08:34 AM

RE: 03 Aug 16 - 08:49 AM

We're still waiting, T-Bird.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 04 Aug 16 - 07:13 AM

1. Denial again.

2. The Editor of a publication is ultimately responsible for the content.

However

Keep digging.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 16 - 07:06 AM

So what?
Ihe first link had already been discussed and does not establish any racism at all, so what is your point?
The second link was about something else altogether that Johnson did not even write!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 04 Aug 16 - 06:47 AM

Have you forgotten already, you really are confused.

"Your link 1 does not have that headline and is not about the P word"

Keep digging

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 16 - 06:38 AM

Rag, you gave the heading "link 1" followed by a blue clickie with URL.
I see now that both were blue clickies.
Neither of them challenges anything I have said, so what is your point?

Jim,
Sys much for the soft underbelly of Little England, doesn't it?
London is the mostr racist city I have ever lived in -

Rubbish. London has a staunchly Labour supporting electorate.
They only made an exception for Johnson.
They would not have if they believed any of that shit.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 16 - 05:48 AM

"Or elect him mayor of London twice?"
Sys much for the soft underbelly of Little England, doesn't it?
London is the mostr racist city I have ever lived in - ask anybody whose been stopped and searched, or you might try Stephen Lawrence's parents.
I can still remember phoning up about a job when I first moved there and being asked what colour I was.
You make Holocuast deniers look like L-Drivers.
There was controversy about Powell's racist invective and there still is.
post:
POWELL'S HATE INVECTIVE
You seen to have moved on from suggesting that Powell did not say what he said to defending his language
Powell was saying much that the Tories agreed with at the time - what they sacked him for was the way he said it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 04 Aug 16 - 05:23 AM

Try again professor, Yesterday at 10.46AM

The link that says Link 1.

Keep digging.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 16 - 05:17 AM

Rag, My word you are confused.
Your link 1 does not have that headline and is not about the P word.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 16 - 05:14 AM

Jim,
the last thing any decent government should do is appoint anybody with his record into a senior position -

Or elect him mayor of London twice?
If anyone believed all that shit, they would not have elected him Mayor of London twice.

There was never any doubt Powell used the invective he did - I watched his ***** diatribe

So did I. There was much controversy about Powell's message, but none at all about his language. There was no controversy about the P word.
That is why you can only quote that spurious Wiki page.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 04 Aug 16 - 05:13 AM

My word you are confused, a link to a headline that states:

"Johnson's Picanninies Apology"

Really about something else?

Keep digging.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 16 - 05:07 AM

Are you a bit confused Rag?

Yesterday I posted:
"Rag, Your link 1. is about something Johnson did not write.
It is dated 2008, and refers to something published years earlier than that"

That was correct. it was published years earlier and it was not written by him.

Today I posted:
"He only used the word once, back in 2003, and no-one thought it wrong at the time"

That is also correct, but refers to the P word. Your link was about something else.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 16 - 05:02 AM

Jim,
you have claimed something which is horrendously racist

No I have not.
My only claim was that there was an over-representation, and that was and is true.

Steve, you have chosen to join Jim's smear campaign with lies of your own.

Your lie, " You ignored the glaringly-obvious fact that 99% of that community were not involved "

The truth is that I acknowledged many times in that 2011 thread that only a tiny minority were involved. Your smear is a blatant lie.

Your lie, "The whole tenor of your posts about the child abuse in Rochdale was to focus on the British Asian community. You were obsessed with it "

The truth is that I ignored the issue for days, posting about the original subject instead. My first post on the subject was to defend the victims when someone blamed them for their own abuse.

Your lie, "you called on out-of-context remarks by various witnesses and investigators to confirm your prejudice"

The truth is that I quoted in context, providing links to the original sources so the quotes could be seen in their original context.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 04 Aug 16 - 04:51 AM

Are you a bit confused professor

Yesterday you posted:
"Rag, Your link 1. is about something Johnson did not write.
It is dated 2008, and refers to something published years earlier than that"

Today you posted:
"He only used the word once, back in 2003, and no-one thought it wrong at the time"

Keep digging.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 16 - 04:50 AM

THE HAAVARA AGREEMENT
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 16 - 04:40 AM

"And no government has, because there is no cloud."
Not to a racist there isn't Keith
Johnson has hit the headlines by being accused of racism on numerous occasions - even if there had been an excuse for what he said, the last thing any decent government should do is appoint anybody with his record into a senior position - it is totally unprecedented.
It was an obvious deal done between him and Ms Mayfly to secure the PMs position.
A Brexit shambles - the man is a buffoon anyway
Your quote from Wiki is worthless.
Again, only to a racist
"This article needs additional citations for verification.""
There was never any doubt Powell used the invective he did - I watched his ***** diatribe
"Yes Jim, but only in USA.
**** rubbish Keith - and if you were not set on winning competitions you'd admit it.
Your performance here has been pathetic
If your malignant racism wasn't so damaging to so many innocent people, one could almost feel sorry for you.
That doesn't include your thuggish mate - he deserves all the humiliation he gets
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 16 - 04:28 AM

Rag,
Different argument professor,

According to you, yes.
You said that failing to recognise other forms of racism make you an "abject racist," but failing to recognise antisemitism does not.

It is a "different argument."
That is blatant antisemitism Rag.
You are revealed as an abject antisemite.
You should explain yourself or withdraw.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 16 - 04:25 AM

Jim,
No decent government would ever appoint anybody with such a cloud handing over him into such a senior position

And no government has, because there is no cloud.
He only used the word once, back in 2003, and no-one thought it wrong at the time.
In 2008. Livingstone dredged it up in a failed attempt to smear his rival for Mayor of London.
Boris was elected twice even though London was solidly Labour before and since.
NO-ONE BELIEVED HE WAS RACIST!

Your quote from Wiki is worthless.
There was much controversy about Powell's message, but none at all about his language. The "controversial" assertion is not supported.
Wiki noted, "This article needs additional citations for verification."

every sentient human being knows it is regarded as a racist insult and has been for a long time

Yes Jim, but only in USA.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 16 - 02:36 AM

"That the man that accuses Boris Johnson of being a racist? "
No-one had to accuse Johnson of being a racist - his own words make that unnecessary - and his appointment has smeared the entire administration with the same brush.
No decent government would ever appoint anybody with such a cloud handing over him into such a senior position - it would have been unthinkable.
Brexit really has brought British politics out into the opem.
Thought I'd dig out a theme tune for you Cap'n!
To be played in times of stress
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Aug 16 - 01:59 AM

Raggy,

Thanks for those links, but they have already been posted twice before so nothing new there.

I see the name Ken Livingston mentioned in them. Is that the same Ken Livingston who is currently suspended from the Labour Party?

The same Ken Livingston who said in the 2012 London Mayoral Elections:

"Livingstone stood for the Labour candidacy as 2012 Mayoral candidate. His campaign attracted criticism when he joked that the election was "a simple choice between good and evil",[296] and when he was accused of anti-semitism by Jewish Labour supporters for suggesting that being largely wealthy, the Jewish community would not vote for him. He denied making the comments, but nevertheless apologised.[297][298][299]"

The same Ken Livingston:

"In April 2016, Livingstone commented publicly on the suspension of Labour MP Naz Shah; she had been removed from the party after it was revealed that she had made comments on Facebook suggesting that Israeli Jews should be relocated to the United States.[314] Livingstone stated that Shah's postings, which were made before she became an MP at the 2015 general election, were "completely over the top" and "rude",[315] although he did not deem them antisemitic.[316] He asserted that there is a "well-orchestrated campaign by the Israel lobby to smear anybody who criticises Israeli policy as antisemitic",[317] and also stated that Adolf Hitler "was supporting Zionism before he went mad and ended up killing six million Jews".[315]

He defended his claims by reference to Lenni Brenner's Zionism in the Age of the Dictators,[318] and many commentators suggested that Livingstone was referring to the Haavara Agreement between Nazi Germany and the Zionist Federation of Germany.[319][320][321][322] Livingstone's statements were criticised by historians,[323][324] among them Roger Moorhouse, who said that they were historically inaccurate.[325] However political scientist Norman Finkelstein said that whilst "Livingstone maybe wasn't precise enough, and lacked nuance", his comments did reflect an initial ambivalence on the part of Hitler towards Zionism and other Jewish territorialist projects before the Nazi adoption of the Final Solution, though he conceded Livingstone may have made the remark simply to "bait" critics of Naz Shah.[326] Livingstone also became involved in a public argument on the subject with the Labour MP John Mann.[327]

Livingstone was subsequently suspended from Labour Party membership "for bringing the party into disrepute".[328] Over 20 Labour MPs called for Livingstone's suspension, while Jon Lansman, founder of the pro-Corbyn Momentum group, called for Livingstone to leave politics altogether,[328] and Khan called for his expulsion from the party.[318] In a subsequent interview, Livingstone expressed regret both for mentioning Hitler and for offending Jews but added that "I'm not going to apologise for telling the truth."[329][330] Corbyn announced that the decision to expel Livingstone would be made by a National Executive Committee internal inquiry, whilst Livingstone insisted that he would be exonerated on the basis of Brenner's book, saying "how can the truth be an offence?"[331] Following this controversy, Livingstone has questioned whether or not he has Jewish ancestry on his mother's side stating that Greville Janner used to speculate whether or not he was Jewish because "my grandmother's name was Zona."[332]

Livingstone was sacked in Spring 2016 by LBC. He was quoted by The Daily Telegraph as saying this was because of his comments about Hitler.[333] With the former Conservative minister David Mellor, Livingstone had co-hosted a Saturday morning current affairs programme on LBC for 8 years.[333]

That the man that accuses Boris Johnson of being a racist? If so you'd have to admire his brass-necked hypocrisy.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Aug 16 - 05:00 PM

"No-one really believed he was racist, or he would not have beaten Livingstone to become twice Mayor of the otherwise solidly Labour London.
It was all smear tactics, and it failed miserably"

"No-one?" Well I believe that hundreds of thousands voted against Boris. Are you a mind-reader? Maybe you mean "no-one important," i.e. "no-one who isn't at least as right-wing as me." I should also remind you that four million people voted for the overtly-racist UKIP. Racism doesn't necessarily seem to put a certain type of person off...

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Aug 16 - 04:44 PM

The whole tenor of your posts about the child abuse in Rochdale was to focus on the British Asian community. You were obsessed with it and you called on out-of-context remarks by various witnesses and investigators to confirm your prejudice. Always appeals to authority, never what Keith thinks. You ignored the glaringly-obvious fact that 99% of that community were not involved and would have been no less revolted by it as you and I were. But on and on and on you went. Your modus operandi. You've done it here again with Labour's alleged antisemitism. It wouldn't be half so bad if you were honest enough to focus equally on other abuses, such as the serial mistreatment of Palestinians by the Israeli regime and the weak-kneed complicity of successive US administrations under pressure from the undemocratic pro-Israel lobby. You're a very sad little man. The M60 was a real bastard this morning but I got past Birmingham quite speedily. There are people in that area who I like to shoot by as fast as possible and I don't mean Lenny Henry.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Aug 16 - 03:24 PM

Keep digging

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Aug 16 - 03:17 PM

"So can you find anything to support your silly assertion?"
Don't get out of that easy - you have claimed something which is horrendously racist - you claim others told you to say it - you lied whi the **** wants to discuss anything with a serial liar?
If it's a smear - give your quotes - it really doesn't get more simple than that.
AS far as "picanninny ids concerned - every sentient human being knows it is regarded as a racist insult and has been for a long time
"Controversial usage[edit]
"The term was controversially used ("wide-grinning picaninnies") by the British Conservative politician Enoch Powell in his "Rivers of Blood" speech on 20 April 1968. In 1987, Governor Evan Mecham of Arizona defended the use of the word, claiming: "As I was a boy growing up, blacks themselves referred to their children as pickaninnies. That was never intended to be an ethnic slur to anybody."[14] Before becoming the Mayor of London, Boris Johnson wrote that "the Queen has come to love the Commonwealth, partly because it supplies her with regular cheering crowds of flag-waving piccaninnies." He later apologised for the article. [15][16]"
Your defence of this term confirms your racism
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 16 - 01:30 PM

Rag,
Your link 1. is about something Johnson did not write.
It is dated 2008, and refers to something published years earlier than that.
It was dredged up by Livingstone to try and smear Johnson who was standing against him for Mayor.

No-one really believed he was racist, or he would not have beaten Livingstone to become twice Mayor of the otherwise solidly Labour London.
It was all smear tactics, and it failed miserably.
Like you boys.

Jim,
(italics not working)"No it has not. That is why you can find nothing to back your silly assertion."
Yes it is Keith and you damn well know it (end italics)

So can you find anything to support your silly assertion?
No.
Come back when you can.
Good luck with that Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 16 - 01:18 PM

Jim,
Such a statement as your is profoundly racist -

Hardly.
My statement was just that I believed all those prominent members of that community.
How is that racist?

You resort to trying to smear me every time you lose an argument.
That statement is five years old you have tried to misrepresent it as racist several times a year every year since.

Other Mudcatters have asked you to stop, but you have nothing else, you sad man.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Aug 16 - 11:18 AM

"No it has not. That is why you can find nothing to back your silly assertion."
Yes it is Keith and you damn well know it
Johnson was castigated for its use and he aplogised for using it
What the hell is it with you people are you insane?
"I have done over and over again since "]
You are lying Keith and you've proved that yourself
The only thing you've ever been able to dredge up is claims of "over-representation.
Such a statement as your is profoundly racist - anybody making it would at least have been dismissed from any position they held and they would be liable for prosecution.
No modern culture encourages the rape of children - none
Once again you have proved yourself totally shameless
If you have produced it - link to it.
I really think were''re done here for the time being - don't you?
How can you live with yourself?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Aug 16 - 10:46 AM

Link 1

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/mayor/boris-says-sorry-over-blacks-have-lower-iqs-article-in-the-spectator-6630340.html

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Aug 16 - 10:43 AM

Hmmmm .......... your delusions, not of great deal of help there. My knowledge of psychology is limited to the first year of my degree when it was one of the options that I took.

That you cannot or, more to the point will not, understand the written word is obvious to all. That you lie to yourself and believe it to be the truth is obvious to all. That you are in complete denial is obvious to all. My advice would be to seek medical help.

In the meantime ......... Keep digging.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 16 - 10:32 AM

How can not comprehend that Powell was castigated for using the term in 19168,

If he was, show us.
You can't because he was not.

how can you not comprehend that Johnson apologised also for using the word.

He did not acknowledge or accept that it was racist. He denied that it was.
He apologised for any offence is all.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 16 - 10:29 AM

Rag,
Different argument professor,

According to you, yes.
You said that failing to recognise other forms of racism make you an "abject racist," but not failing to recognise antisemitism.
It is a "different argument."

That is blatant antisemitism Rag.
You are revealed as an abject antisemite.
You should explain yourself or withdraw.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Aug 16 - 10:28 AM

" No it has not. That is why you can find nothing to back your silly assertion"

How can not comprehend that Powell was castigated for using the term in 19168, how can you not comprehend that Johnson apologised also for using the word.

Did these things not happened, is the rest of the country living in a dream world, are the newspapers and websites which report these occurances lying.

Or perchance you are a racist who is trying desperately to crawl away from the things you have written here.

The moving finger writes.........

Keep digging.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 16 - 10:21 AM

Jim,
It has been "thought of" as a racist term since Powell used it in the sixcties

No it has not. That is why you can find nothing to back your silly assertion.

Johnson also described Obama's heritage racially,

Everyone's heritage is "racial," silly.


You are lying when you claime any public figure has said it - prove you are not

I have done over and over again since 2011, yet you still dredge it all up again whenever you lose an argument.
Do you deny that prominent members of that community ascribe the offending to their culture?
No. You can't.
Do you deny that we are all influenced to some extent by the culture we are all implanted with.
No. You can't.
Did I make any claim about it anyway?
No. I just said I believed them. Why would anyone not?

Now please, stop trying to smear me as a person just because you are losing another argument.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Aug 16 - 09:48 AM

Any sign of that direct quote yet Keith or are we just going to have to take your word for it (not) yet again
Jeeze - you Christians!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Aug 16 - 08:52 AM

So you would walk up to a stranger with a child who happened to be black and say "lovely picanninny" to them would you?

He would, absolutely, and likely has done.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Aug 16 - 08:49 AM

Greg F. ... defends and supports the likes of Assad in Syria and Hamas in Gaza.

Right, then, you lying piece of dirt: show us all exactly when and where I have done so.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Aug 16 - 08:25 AM

"If you mean this forum, you have not seen it."
Piccanninny is a racist term - it is recognised as a racist term - Johnson was accused of using iot as a racist term - you and your thuggish mate are defending it
"No. He used it once in 2003, and no-one thought anything of it."
It has been "thought of" as a racist term since Powell used it in the sixcties
lapse of memory or lies on your part, or what?
Johnson also described Obama's heritage racially, giving it as a reason why people with such heritage hated Britain - you have kept somewhat silent that one.
"Here it is again,"
That is not a quote - itr is once again, your distortion of what people have actually said
Please provide a quote of anybody claiming that the entire male Pakistani population is inclined to underage sex because of their "implanted" "and we are all influenced (implanted) by our culture."(now a word used by you and not responded to)
You are lying when you claime any public figure has said it - prove you are not - simply done if you are not lying
Your knuckles-along-the-ground mate seems to have done his usual runner from his "get on your bike" theory of turning workers into itinerants.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Aug 16 - 08:02 AM

Complete denial yet again, yet more dishonesty and furthermore absolutely no evidence to support such a claim.



Keep digging.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 16 - 08:02 AM

Jim,
I never thought I'd see anybody defending the use of racist terms outside of racist organisations

If you mean this forum, you have not seen it.

Extensive use has been made of this racial slur by the U.K. foreign secretary Boris Johnson,

No. He used it once in 2003, and no-one thought anything of it.

Keityh - any word on those people describing All male Pakinstanis and being culturally implanted to rape children yet - no - thought not.

Yes, I replied earlier.
Here it is again,

if you calaim that anybody has ever described the entire male population as being implanted culturally implanted to rape cildren produce it now.

Nobody has, including me.
The offending has been ascribed to the culture, and we are all influenced (implanted) by our culture.
I always acknowledged that the offenders were a tiny minority of the community, but it is a fact that a majority of the offenders are from that community.
I have no opinion on that culture because I know nothing about it.

Now, stop trying to smear me as a person just because you are losing another argument.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 16 - 07:56 AM

If it were not so there would have been no need to Boris Johnson to apologise,

He only apologised for any offence caused, though it caused none at the time (2003)
He did not acknowledge or accept that the word is racist.

if it were not so Enoch Powell would not have been castigated for using the word.

He was not castigated for using the word.
The word has no derogatory connotations where our black communities originated.
If they are not offended by it, why should anyone else be.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Aug 16 - 07:50 AM

I never thought I'd see anybody defending the use of racist terms outside of racist organisations - but who knows, maybe you have a track record on that too - you certainly have the leanings.
"Extensive use has been made of this racial slur by the U.K. foreign secretary Boris Johnson, one of many comments he has made which have a strong racial undercurrent."
" Raggy is an undaunted supporter of the "left""
The "left" were being shipped of to the extermination camps by your people. along with the Jewish People
Your prod deceleration of being "right" along with your hatred of anybody who opposes the State and the bankers confirms your fascism - nothing on your plan for workers itinerency yet, I see
Keityh - any word on those people describing All male Pakinstanis and being culturally implanted to rape children yet - no - thought not.
Taklk about rats in a corner!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Aug 16 - 07:12 AM

Ever more tenuous Teri, The term is racist within the UK (and the USA)

If it were not so there would have been no need to Boris Johnson to apologise, if it were not so Enoch Powell would not have been castigated for using the word.

I had presumed you had slightly more integrity than the professor, at least when you have made a error you stop going on about it, perhaps I was mistaken.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Aug 16 - 07:12 AM

Keith A of Hertford - 03 Aug 16 - 06:31 AM

"So Rag, when you said what you said, it only applied to one specific supposed racism.
Why does it not apply to any and all racism Rag?"

Ah Keith you forget Raggy is an undaunted supporter of the "left" who firmly believes that as "Some animals are more equal than others" it is perfectly acceptable in his world that there should be - "One sauce for the Goose and another for the Gander".

His hypocrisy knows no bounds.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Stu
Date: 03 Aug 16 - 07:12 AM

"The word "piccanninnie" is in commonplace usage in a number of cultures in the Commonwealth of Nations that is a fact.

So you would walk up to a stranger with a child who happened to be black and say "lovely picanninny" to them would you?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Aug 16 - 06:59 AM

Steve Shaw - 03 Aug 16 - 04:45 AM

I would suggest that you read Chakrabarti's Report and her recommendations. Then read the eleven recommendations that Baroness Royall made plus the seven additional recommendations she advised Shami Chakrabarti to address. Regarding those, Shami Chakrabarti did exactly the opposite of what Baroness Royall recommended. Those concerned a time limit in which any complaint can be made whereas Royall suggested that there should be no time limit and the second that subsequent to her Report being submitted Chakrabarti states that no retrospective investigations will be undertaken. But then of course Shaw you would have known all that had you read any of it.

Simple question that requires only a yes or no answer:

1: Is it racist to state the fact that someone's father happens to be Kenyan? Personally I would say no it is not.

2: Like it or not, it doesn't matter a jot. The word "piccanninnie" is in commonplace usage in a number of cultures in the Commonwealth of Nations that is a fact. It's use in those cultures is not racially slanted in any way shape or form, so stop pretending or trying to convince us that it is. You talk about context - In Boris Johnson's case he was talking about the "Head of the Commonwealth", her love of that Commonwealth, and the fact that on official visits the streets are normally lined with small children ("Piccanninnies" as their own parents would describe them) waving flags in greeting. Is it racist to describe that? No it is not.

To get back on track do you deny that Labour's NEC read Baroness Royall's Report and decided that it was in the Labour Party's best interest that the British public should not know the contents of that report into anti-Semitism at Oxford University Labour Club and within the larger arena of the Labour Party itself?

As with everything about the Labour Party at present I think that certain things are being done to protect Jeremy Corbyn from censure.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Aug 16 - 06:50 AM

Different argument professor, what is under discussion here is YOUR racism, YOUR continued defence of racism and come to think of it YOUR dishonesty to attempting to manipulate something I typed.

Keep digging.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 16 - 06:31 AM

So Rag, when you said what you said, it only applied to one specific supposed racism.
Why does it not apply to any and all racism Rag?
What was so special about that one word, which I have showed you has only recently become non-PC here.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 16 - 06:27 AM

Jim,
that's why the press is full of Johnson's having used it as being racist
But it isn't, and it is 13 years since he used it.

Back to the subject.
Please discuss word meanings somewhere else.

Angela Eagle quoted in Guardian yesterday,

Eagle said on Tuesday: "The 17 whistleblowers who wrote to the Labour party with eyewitness testimony of homophobic language and actions, threats of violence and other behaviour unbecoming of Labour members did so because they want the same as we all should– for the Labour party to be a safe welcoming campaigning environment, free of bigotry and bullying.

"That is why I am so saddened and disappointed that Labour party constituency officers are seeking to challenge in public the private testimony of whistleblowers. If this was happening in a workplace, the unions – for which I worked for many years – Jeremy, myself, the whole Labour movement would be aghast ...

"Jeremy keeps telling us that he is standing for a kinder, gentler politics, but that is rendered meaningless when he fails to protect people who have witnessed bigotry and intimidation from having their anonymous testimony challenged in public.

"For weeks now, Jeremy has sat back silently as this has gone on. This is precisely the kind of behaviour that has led to the Labour party finding itself in crisis.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Aug 16 - 06:27 AM

Hey Great !! New games guy !!

SPOT THE DIFFERENCE

1. What the professor said I said:" Rag, You said that if someone could not recognise racism, they are an "abject racist."

2. What I actually said: "If you do not recognise the term "piccannines" as being racist (which even Bobad accepts) you are an abject racist."

Keep digging.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Aug 16 - 06:20 AM

"I would appear to be a damn sight better at "investigating" things than you."
More megalomania - if you "investigate!"things" why do you never disclose where your ideas come from - client confidentiality?
"Your are at fault."
Neither - we both know that "picaninniny" is and offenbsive racist term - that's why the press is full of Johnson's having used it as being racist
Maybe their "memory or honesty"
is at fault.
You really are stupidly obvious in your racism.
"Nobody has, including me."
And you are incredibly stupid to continue denying what you have said on line, have had put up in front of you dozens of times and continue to argue for
Truely beyond belief.
You have been asked to put up examples of others saying similar - you continue to refuse to do so and will not do so at any future date - point conclusively made I think
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 16 - 06:17 AM

Rag, it is only in USA that it has long been considered racist.
That is not true of UK or anywhere else.

" Rag, You said that if someone could not recognise racism, they are an "abject racist."
I said that did I, care to point out just where I said that

You stated,
"If you do not recognise the term "piccannines" as being racist (which even Bobad accepts) you are an abject racist."

Does your ruling not apply to all racist terms and statements?
Jim and Steve refuse to recognise Shah's bile as racist, so by your ruling they are "abject racists."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Aug 16 - 05:41 AM

Teri, You and I both know that in the UK (and the US according to Bobad) it is considered a racist term.

We are talking about it's use in the UK nowhere else.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Aug 16 - 05:36 AM

" Rag, You said that if someone could not recognise racism, they are an "abject racist."

I said that did I, care to point out just where I said that, or perchance you are trying to put words in my mouth.

Keep digging.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Aug 16 - 05:29 AM

"Grow up Teri, you haven't heard this word in years never mind in constant daily usage."

Well that is true Raggy - it has been years since I have been to the Caribbean, North Western Territories of Australia, the Far East, Polynesia or Melanesia. But the strange thing is Raggy the fact that I have not been in those places does not in any way at all alter the fact that in those places recently, many of whom are parts of the Commonwealth, the word is in normal daily usage and it is not regarded as racist or derogatory.

To paraphrase Will - Thankfully "There are more things in heaven and earth, Raggy, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy>"

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Stu
Date: 03 Aug 16 - 05:02 AM

"I would appear to be a damn sight better at "investigating" things than you."

I'm not claiming to be the great investigator, that was you m'lud. I remember Obama's ill-conceived comments on putting Britain to the back of the queue and it got my gander up a bit as it a) Seemed like bullying and b) it was obvious it would rile up folk and drive more to the leave side of the argument.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Aug 16 - 04:51 AM

"Irrelevant "
Why - if a term is used as a racist epithet, and has long been outlawed, why should it be acceptable for it to be used by politicians - are they above the rest of us - oh, forgot, of course they are to fascists.
"Elsewhere in the world it most certainly is not the case,"
So we have a Foreign secretary who speaks for the rest of the world - must say, I've never come across that one - Jay-sus!!!!!
That's news to me Jom"
I used our diplomatic Duke as an example of a British establishment figure who constantly embarrasses Britain (my Britain - not your enlist one) with his racial insensitivity - I have no idea whether he used that particular racist term - "slitty eyed", "lazy Indian workers", spear chuckers" are more par for his course.
Please do not be stupid, and don't take us for such
A racist term by a used by a British politician is a racist term - Johnson at least had the nouse to apologise for letting the mask slip - you are beyond a joke.
"It is racist to state the fact that Barack Obama's father was Kenyan"
No, of course it isn't, Johnson used it as one when he claimed that Obama had an "ancestral dislike of the UK", using his Kenyan ancestry to make the point - that is racist and it was recognised to be so.
It's the old usual - that foreigners aren't like us, they can never become one of us because it is in their genes to hate us.
Just about wipes out the entire population of present-day America - just what we want in a Foreign Secretary.
"Of course not Jom your biased mind was already unalterably made up - Not in the least surprised at that, nothing new there}"
Comes a little rich from someone who has been harping on General Kitchener for about a year now and just watched his boat sink.
I acknowledged my mistake and apologised - you have neither the good grace to accept that people do such things, nor the balls to do similar for your list of "made-up-crap when it is pointed out to you.
Comes with being a superior being, eh-what?
"Now that last sentence is closing in on the nub of this discussion about the Labour anti-Semitism row in which there are three parts."
Why do you always manage to sound like a latter-day Mr Quelch?
You are a pompous buffoon - the only entertaining aspect to your contributions is your self-projected image of a blimpish gun-nut, wannabe military veteran who wants to be taken seriously by bullying his opinions to the world - a wonderful caricature of a congenital all-round failure.
You're metier appears to be a crowded barroom around closing time, trying to impress the local yokels.
So what have we got – it isn't racist to use words that are used elsewhere – it's ok to use the ancestry of people to stereotype them and the world has missed what you know about the Labour Party
You really are a sad joke, and a dim one at that.
As I said, if you have any evidence of any form of racial or cultural wrongdoing in the Labour party, please produce it and show what the rest of the world appears to have missed about any of these things
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 16 - 04:49 AM

Steve,
How typical of you to assume that you are 100% right in your assumed, arbitrary definition of antisemitism

Not just me Steve. The Labour Nec and leadership and Shah herself were quite clear that her statements were antisemitic, but you are still unable to recognise it.

Rag,
You said that if someone could not recognise racism, they are an "abject racist."
Steve and Jim are unable to recognise Shah's racist statements.
Do you now retract that claim?
Do the rest of you think he is right?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Aug 16 - 04:45 AM

Rubbish, Teribus. The report focuses on antisemitism. There is no "effective statute of limitations" on any other type of past transgressions that are not to do with antisemitism, even if you're right, which I very much doubt.

As for remarks about piccaninnies and Kenyan background, etc., stop being so disingenuous. You know very well that when remarks of that nature are made, context and nuance are everything, both aspects you have deliberately excised from your defences. Do you think it's OK for us to call black people niggers if we hear them or their parents calling themselves it? I've heard it hundreds of times in the East End schools I worked in and I told the culprits that it was totally unacceptable, which it is.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Aug 16 - 04:31 AM

Naz Shah's silly remark was about Israel, not the Jews. How typical of you to assume that you are 100% right in your assumed, arbitrary definition of antisemitism and that those who disagree with you are 100% wrong. Still, that's people of religion for you. You are also being extremely judgemental in your unqualified reference to her as being antisemitic. There's been no judge and jury and only right-wing apologists for thre Israeli regime say that. You do not have the monopoly on the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Aug 16 - 04:02 AM

Detract What professor. I have said before I have never mentioned Shah in any way shape or form.

As I have never mentioned Shah I cannot detract from what I said can I.

However keep digging.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 16 - 03:51 AM

Returning to the subject, we now have many more examples of the antisemitism within Labour that led to 50 suspensions and two inquiries.
None of you have commented even though you have been demanding examples from the start.

You also all failed to recognise that Shah's hateful remarks were antisemitic, and Rag has made the case that failing to recognise racism makes you "abject racists."
Is he right?
Do you retract Rag?

Drop the diversions and respond to the debating points put to you.
Is the problem that you can't??

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 16 - 03:44 AM

Jim, Macmillan dictionary gives US and UK usage.
I do not accept all those unsupported assertions you make about the usage.
Your memory or honesty are at fault.
Rag, McGrath has been here for about twenty years and is about the most respected contributor on Mudcat.
This thread is not about etymology, so please drop it or start a thread.

Jim,
if you calaim that anybody has ever described the entire male population as being implanted culturally implanted to rape cildren produce it now.

Nobody has, including me.
The offending has been ascribed to the culture, and we are all influenced (implanted) by our culture.
I always acknowledged that the offenders were a tiny minority of the community, but it is a fact that a majority of the offenders are from that community.
I have no opinion on that culture because I know nothing about it.

Now, stop trying to smear me as a person just because you are losing another argument.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Aug 16 - 03:38 AM

"constant daily usage" What !!

Grow up Teri, you haven't heard this word in years never mind in constant daily usage. Once again a pathetic attempt to defend the indefensible in this case the professors racism.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Aug 16 - 03:36 AM

bobad - 02 Aug 16 - 05:14 PM

"It isn't news that there are groups of Jews that are opposed to some of their government's policies just as there are those in the US and other democracies. That they exist is one of the things that make Israel, a free, democratic and inclusive country, a beacon of light in a region of countries ruled by oppressive despots."

Very true bobad, but you have to realise that while Greg F. gnashes his teeth at the likes of GWB and Donald Trump - he defends and supports the likes of Assad in Syria and Hamas in Gaza. I would just like to point out to Greg F. that while Israel does hold elections and respect the results of those elections Hamas does not and that the Hamas method for dealing with those who politically oppose them is to launch them off the roofs of multi-storey buildings.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Aug 16 - 03:19 AM

Jim Carroll - 02 Aug 16 - 12:55 PM

"It appears I wrongly attributed the "lower IQ remark to Johnson - aploogies.

Having said that, as far as his position as Foreign Secretary is concerned, it makes no difference whatever. {Of course not Jom your biased mind was already unalterably made up - Not in the least surprised at that, nothing new there}

It is a reflection on the the Government of the Day to appoint someone to such a position whose reputation is tainted by association with racist remarks."

Now that last sentence is closing in on the nub of this discussion about the Labour anti-Semitism row in which there are three parts.

1: Baroness Royall's inquiry into the Oxford University Labour Club

2: Shami Chakrabarti's investigation

3: The decision by Labour's NEC to make public Chakrabarti's Report but keep Baroness Royall's report secret.

The actions recommended by Shami Chakrabarti's report effectively put a "statute of limitations" on any prior transgressions of anyone in the Labour Party (What a pity Boris Johnson wasn't a "socialist" eh Jom because under these new Labour rules the matter would not have been looked into and he would have been allowed to carry on as normal). So we have all of these completely anonymous slightly or moderately anti-Semitic young Labour "hopefuls" at Oxford University preparing themselves for careers in politics and nobody has got the foggiest notion of who they are or what they did. They must have done something Jom otherwise there would have been no urgent recommendations that required immediate and sustained action. But because of Chakrabarti's recommendations and the NEC's decision it would appear that the Labour Party of the future (If indeed it has any future at all) may appoint to important positions goodness knows how many candidates whose reputations have been tainted by racist behaviour or association with racist behviour.

Piccanniny is a deeply racist term and has been for the best part of my lifetime - no matter how our Royal racist Duke of Edinburgh, who is known fro his racist gaffes, refers to the "colonials"

Oh Dear, Jom's grabbed hold of the wrong end of the stick again, as usual.

Taking the first part of that:

"Piccanniny is a deeply racist term and has been for the best part of my lifetime"

Irrelevant, you were brought up in the UK and you now live in Ireland where what you say above is undoubtedly the case. Elsewhere in the world it most certainly is not the case, the word means a small child (That is any child of any origin) and is in constant daily usage. Boris Johnson, wrote a line about the Queen and the Commonwealth, as stated previously there is nothing racist at all in him referring to "flag waving piccanninnies" as that is how they would be referred to by their own parents.

Now the second bit:

"no matter how our Royal racist Duke of Edinburgh, who is known fro his racist gaffes, refers to the "colonials"

The Duke of Edinburgh has referred to "colonials" as piccanninnies? That's news to me Jom, any more details on that? Or is this just more Jim Carroll "Made-up-shit"?

"The number one Piccanninny who belongs to the Queen" was how Prince Charles was referred to on an official visit to Papua New Guinea. He was so amused by it that he used the phrase to introduce himself to people who spoke the native language for the entire trip.

"Pickaninny (also picaninny or piccaninny or pickinniny) is a term in English which refers to a racist and derogatory caricature of dark-skinned children of African descent - it has long been associated with slavery."

Whereas elsewhere in the world it is in common everyday usage and it refers to a small child.

It is immaterial that Obama accepted it with good grace - it is a racist term and should not be one associated with a British Foreign secretary"

It is racist to state the fact that Barack Obama's father was Kenyan? Dying to hear your further explanation of that.

It is racist to make the observation and comment on the fact that you think someone is "ancestrally anti-British"?

Don't think so in either case Jom, they are merely statements of fact as one person sees it. You do it all the time, the only difference is that Boris did explain why he held the views he did by providing examples of how Barack Obama could be described as being "ancestrally anti-British" (I would imagine that, considering the history of the country, quite a few Americans are).

As far as I am aware Boris Johnson has made no "gaffes" so far in his capacity as Foreign Secretary - but early days yet as you say - let's see if he can surpass Labour's late great Lord George Brown in the "total embarrassment-stakes" in the post of Foreign Secretary shall we?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 07:38 PM

"Yes, but only in USA."
Piccaninny has been used as a term of abuse at least since the Notting Hill Riots - it actually features as a racist epithet in a Giles cartoon depicting a white rioter being escorted into a hospital by a black doctor in 1958 - it caused controversy then.
It was used as a term of racist abuse in the 1970 during the rise in football violence in the 1970s.
Objections to its featured strongly in the objections to The Black and White Minstrel Show in the late 1970s.
Strong objections to the term were raised in Parliament and in the Press when it was used in Enoch Powell's 'Rivers of Blood speech in 1968
It continued to be used by cretins like Jim Davidson and Bernard Manning, but it was finally generally disappeared from usage in the media some time in the early 80s, through it was occasionally used in dramas to shock.
It is a racist term and has been recognised as such for half a century.
The MacMillan dictionary describes it:
"pickaninny noun
'offensive' a black child. This word is sometimes used by older white people but most people consider it offensive"
It has long been an offensive racist word, anybody who uses it or supports its usage is a racist - we have a racist Foreign Secretary
End of story.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 06:35 PM

No Greg, those links don't cut it by a country mile. Dare I say it again more made-up-shit™.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 06:03 PM

BTW Greg, I'm still waiting for your source to the claim that thousands of Israelis of the Jewish faith are opposed to the "atrocities" committed by their government.

vide 02 Aug 16 - 11:59 AM , et al.

Assuming you are able to read.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 05:14 PM

It isn't news that there are groups of Jews that are opposed to some of their government's policies just as there are those in the US and other democracies. That they exist is one of the things that make Israel, a free, democratic and inclusive country, a beacon of light in a region of countries ruled by oppressive despots.

BTW Greg, I'm still waiting for your source to the claim that thousands of Israelis of the Jewish faith are opposed to the "atrocities" committed by their government.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 03:33 PM

Checked out a few of your links Greg and all I see are anti Israel hate sites

Yup, Bubo- especially the majority of them a that are maintained and/or supported by persons of the Jewish faith and/or Israeli citizens. Anti-semites every last one.

You really are an ignorant, despicable piece of work. Perhaps you can get a positiion on The Trumpshit's Cabinet - you'd be a natural.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 03:06 PM

Talk about scraping the barrel !

Quoting another poster (McGarth of Harlow)on this forum is not exactly referring to experts, not even up to the low standards of your usual cut an pastes.

With all due respect to McGarth, he is in all likelihood a really decent man I've never met him. (Sorry Mr McGarth my sincere apologies)

However to use him as a source is utterly ridiculous.

I know you will never concede you are a RACIST Keith but your continued posts only serve to cement the view.

However please keep digging.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 03:05 PM

"Yes I did."
You did not Keith - if you calaim that anybody has ever described the entire male population as being implanted culturally implanted to rape cildren produce it now.
You have lied about this consistently and you are lying now.
Easy to prove - produce it or withdraw it - simpleas that
You never have.
"localised, street grooming"
You have the numbers - out of over a million
Repetition of this just compounds the lie.
"Yes, but only in USA.
"Yes, but only in USA.
Everywhere Keith
Another lie.
You are a racist to condone it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 02:20 PM

Jim,
Piccanniny is a deeply racist term and has been for the best part of my lifetime

Yes, but only in USA.

In the old thread it is pointed out that the word is in everyday use with no negative connotations in the Caribbean.
Until recently our black community came almost entirely from the Caribbean. If they did not regard it as in any way offensive, why would anyone else?

Having established that the word has only recently become non-pc here, and never was racist, I will not post about it further on a thread about the Labour Party.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 02:12 PM

Jim,
Every time you lose an argument you resort to trying to smear me as a person.
Here we go again.
"I quoted such figures then as Alibhai-Brown, Ahmed and Shafiq."
No you didn't -

Yes I did.
They all ascribed the offending to culture.
We are all affected to some extent by our culture. We are all "implanted."

you referred to over-representation as you have just done

Yes I did. All of those mentioned and many more since have confirmed it.
e.g. ""The Muslim community must accept and address the fact that Asian and Pakistani men are disproportionately involved in "localised, street grooming" of vulnerable girls, one of the UK's most senior prosecutors (Nazir Afzal, Crown Prosecution Service's lead on child sexual abuse) has said.
and, "Asked why Pakistani men are overrepresented in statistics relating to on-street grooming, Shaista Gohir, chair of Muslim Women's Network UK, said it was a complex issue but partly stemmed from a lack of respect for women and girls."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 01:06 PM

AND THE LABOUR PARTY HAS A "PROBLEM"!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 12:55 PM

It appears I wrongly attributed the "lower IQ remark to Johnson - aploogies.
Having said that, as far as his position as Foreign Secretary is concerned, it makes no difference whatever
It is a reflection on the the Government of the Day to appoint someone to such a position whose reputation is tainted by association with racist remarks.
While he may not have written the article, as editor, it was accepted by him for publication - all articles in major magazines, such as The Spectator "a conservative magazine, editorship of which is regarded as "a step on the ladder to high office in the Conservative Party in the UK" are agreed upon by an editorial committee and are the ultimate responsibility of the editor.
It was a profound racist article and its appearance in such a magazine must be considered as reflecting the views of all associated with it, considering the position it occupies.
Had it been included in a Labour Journal, our own resident rat-pack whould have been triumphantly at the moon as they still are over a non--event that has long been proven a non-event
It is basic hypocrisy to continue condemning something that has been proven to be false, while, at the same time, letting our racist Foreign Secretary off the hook.
Piccanniny is a deeply racist term and has been for the best part of my lifetime - no matter how our Royal racist Duke of Edinburgh, who is known fro his racist gaffes, refers to the "colonials"
The Dook is there as decoration on the Royal Christmas cake - The Foreign Secretary is responsible for Britain's dealings with other nations.
Pickaninny (also picaninny or piccaninny or pickinniny) is a term in English which refers to a racist and derogatory caricature of dark-skinned children of African descent - it has long been associated with slavery.
It is immaterial that Obama accepted it with good grace - it is a racist term and should not be one associated with a British Foreign secretary - again, it is gross hypocrisy to excuse its use by a British politician, nor statesman, while continuing to condemn a non-event, especially one that has been trumped up by Israeli propaganda.
As I said - Britain has a racist Foreign Secretary whose name has been associated with that 'little weakness' for a long time.
One gaff in a Foreign secretary is inexcuable; three shows a distinct tendency - but then, Johnson is but one of a number of racists tolerated by the Conservative Party.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 12:48 PM

Try this one Stu:

Barack Obama's Back of the queue threat

I would appear to be a damn sight better at "investigating" things than you.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Stu
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 12:42 PM

"it did appear in the "Spectator" while Boris Johnson was Editor"

That's all right then.

"Investigation shows..."

New TV series:

"Teribus Investigates: Digging the dirt on the dirtiest dogs in the district"

I for one would watch that. Actually, I wouldn't.


"Britain would go the back of the queue on trade deals with the UK "

Yer wot? Britain would be at the back of the queue for trade deals with... itself? Get a grip Inspector Tezza!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 12:42 PM

"Boris Johnson comes pretty near the mark when he referred to black people having lower IQs"

Where did Boris Johnson refer to black people having lower IQs?

Fact is that Boris Johnson didn't another Journalist working for the Spectator did.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 12:40 PM

Checked out a few of your links Greg and all I see are anti Israel hate sites, no statistics to support your claims. So just more made-up-shit™.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 12:36 PM

"he was forced to tender his resignation by the public shame of what he'd done"

Nope - try again - truth would be good this time.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 11:59 AM

But you must, no doubt, have the statistics to back up your claim>

Bubo, a simple web search - which you no doubt can't be arsed to perform and the results of which you would discard in any case- will turn up more that you'll be able to read in a month. But to get you started:

http://www.ejnet.org/ip/

http://btvshalom.org/

https://jewishvoiceforpeace.org/

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/jew2jew.html

http://forward.com/news/israel/202796/jews-march-in-new-york-rally-against-israel-war-in/

https://jewishvoiceforpeace.org/

http://jfjfp.com/

http://www.voicesfrominside.net/organizations.htm

http://www.allmep.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=192&Itemid=4

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab-Israeli_peace_projects#Alliance_for_Middle_East_Peace_.28ALLMEP.29

Now, of course, you'll claim that these are all Jew-hating (or Jewish self-hating) antisemitic organizations.......

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 11:40 AM

"Ah Jom but that is not what you originally said was it?"
Ah mein fuhrer
What I originally said was that the millions of men who were sent to their deaths were led by incompetents.
I gave Kitchener as an example - you demurred.
The delay caused by Kitchener's blunder in sending the wrong ammunition causes countless thousands of deaths - he was forced to tender his resignation by the public shame of what he'd done (all covered in Paxman's programmes).
The fact that the government regarded the reputation of the Generals as being more important than the lives and safety of the fighting men is further proof, if any were needed of the unnecessary sacrifice of an entire generation of young men in this Imperial bloodbath.
It is a point of semantics as whether Kitchen was forced to resign or to offer is resignation - he offered his resignation because of his blunder - it matters little whether it was politically expedient to accept that resignation.
Another battle lost, I'm afraid - now why not go down with your ship like all good galley swabbers are supposed to do.
As I said, unlike you pair, I don't make up anything - -it would be a total for me or anybody to do so.
Your clownishly arrogant and ignorant behaviour makes it totally unnecessary - keep it up.
"I quoted such figures then as Alibhai-Brown, Ahmed and Shafiq."
No you didn't - you referred to over-representation as you have just done (you have been given the actual state of that over-representation – around a thousand in a population of over a million - nobody has suggested an implant (which you acknowledge was your opinion).
Nobody anywhere has ever at any time attempted to implicate and entire culture in sexual deviance, as you have and continue to do.
Boris Johnson comes pretty near the mark when he referred to black people having lower IQs (but that's Foreign Secretaries for you!!)
Piccaninnies has been recognised as an offensive term for best part of my lifetime, certainly long before Johnson used it and it is further proof of your extensive racism to defend it
Johnson's use of this, his IQ reference and his reference to Obama's origins, makes him a serial racist.
You really do never learn, do you?
Unless you can provide anybody claiming that the entire male Pakistani population is culturally implanted to rape children, this discussion is over and this disgusting statement remains all your own work
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 11:35 AM

In Jom's red hot list of 27 Tory "indiscretions" three were instances attributed to Boris Johnson:

1: The sarcastic comment about the Queen, the Commonwealth and the Piccaninnies - Which if actually studied proves to be correct, acceptable and accurate use of language for describing any Royal Visit to quite large sections of the Commonwealth.

2: The comment in an article about the low IQ of "Black Africans" which Jom's link said Boris Johnson wrote - Investigation shows that Boris Johnson wrote no such article, it did appear in the "Spectator" while Boris Johnson was Editor, the article itself was written by Taki Theodoracopulos.

3: Then there was the "racist" Barack Obama comments - which of course were nothing of the sort, certainly not as far as Barack Obama himself was concerned.

Oh and before you ask. Why did he apologise? It is the sort of thing anyone conversant with what constitutes good manners and behaviour does when told that offence has been taken at something said inadvertently.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 11:23 AM

the thousands of Israeli citizens of the Jewish faith who oppose the policies of the Israeli government and the atocities they commit.

I am sure there are Israeli citizens who don't agree with some of their government's policies that is, after all, one of the hallmarks of a democracy. As for the atocities [sic] they commit only fanatics and Jew haters would consider defending your country's citizens from attack an atrocity so I doubt there are thousands of Israeli citizens of the Jewish faith that fit that bill. But you must, no doubt, have the statistics to back up your claim or is it merely more of your made-up-shit™ ?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 11:18 AM

Teri, use the link I provided a few days ago


Professor keep digging

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 10:56 AM

Johnson Obama Comments Not "Racist"

Barack Obama describes himself as a "Francophile".

Tends to attempt to dictate what the UK and should not do, as though we should actually pay attention - Over the EU Referendum he strongly supported the "Remain" side recommending that the UK should sign up to something that he and the US Congress would not go near as long as their arses pointed downwards.

Britain would go the back of the queue on trade deals with the UK - Barack Obama being "friendly" towards the United Kingdom.

Apparently

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 10:50 AM

Rag,
It's a pretty word, pity it's been twisted and used as a vehicle for racists, but that's how it goes.
We all know and agree the word was and is used as a racist slur in US, but only recently in UK if it even has.
Non-PC certainly, but racist?

Powell made many racist statements, like, "The black man shall have the whip hand over the white man."
A very racist statement, but he does not use racist language.
He was much too clever to do that.

Mcgrath went on to say,
"A parallel to all this exists in "bambino" - when used in English, but in an Italian context, it implies an Italian baby. But outside that context, if anyone used it of a baby, it wouldn't imply the baby was Italian, just that the speaker liked to use Italian words sometimes. That's the way piccaninny has been used in countries like England, in the past anyway. I'd suspect that bert's blue eyes piccaninny song could well be English rather than American."

Now Rag, what has any of this to do with the Labour Party today?
You all kept asking for examples of the antisemitic statements and the names of the Labour people who made them.
You now have a few more, though not the whole 50 who were suspended for their antisemitic statements.
Any comments?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 10:32 AM

we were a little behind but by the 60's it was not a word to use.

The person who made the post I reproduced doesn't appear to share your opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 10:30 AM

Q. Yup, Bubo, just like the thousands of Israeli citizens of the Jewish faith who oppose the policies of the Israeli government and the atocities they commit.

A: More unsubstantiated made-up-shit.

So, Bubo, you're saying these folks dont exist - as well as others of the Jewish faith all over the world who oppose the policies of the Israeli Government?

And you talk about "made-up shit"??

Amusing - were it not so pitiful.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 10:28 AM

Raggy in what context did Johnson use the word?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 10:13 AM

Bobad,

The professor first cited McGarth of Harlow. This is a classic example of him taking a quote to perverting it to mean something else.

What McGarth of Harlow actually said was:

"When I was growing up and where I was growing up, it was a word that might be used for any toddler. It's a pretty word, pity it's been twisted and used as a vehicle for racists, but that's how it goes. Maybe if white people started using it for their own children it could get rehabilitated"

In other words it had been used at one time but had become "twisted AND USED AS A VEHICLE FOR RACISTS BUT THAT'S HOW IT GOES"

McGrath acknowledged it as a racist slur. It certainly had when I was a child and it certainly had by 1968 when used by Enoch Powell. That is FORTY EIGHT years ago.

You yourself said it was taboo in the states by the late 30's well we were a little behind but by the 60's it was not a word to use.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 08:21 AM

"Kitchener was forced to offer his resignation after is causing the death of British soldiers by having the wrong shells sent"

Ah Jom but that is not what you originally said was it? That is what you changed your position to, without apologising for your error, in stating that Kitchener was forced to resign. Simple truth was that Kitchener was not forced to do anything of the sort. Your original post on the subject was "Jim Carroll Made-Up-Shit".

Kitchener was not even forced into offering his resignation if you look into the matter. But there again maybe Jom can tell us who it was that forced him to tender his resignation.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 08:10 AM

This from the thread linked to by Keith

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: vindelis - PM
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 07:57 PM

Well you learn something new every day. I will have to add this to my list of words and terms not to be used in the 'UK' way, if I ever visit the United States.

appears to support his contention that the word did not carry the same baggage in the UK as in the US.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 07:28 AM

Are you really utterly incapable of reading the printed word ?

"The term was CONTROVERSIALLY used (wide grinning piccaninnies)by the British Conservative politician in his "Rivers of Blood" speech on 20th April 1968"

It caused a furore then, it was not acceptable then nor it is acceptable now except of course to a racist.

The moving finger writes................... Weep and wail as much as you like, cry to the Mods if you want to. You, as normal, will try to disassociate yourself from the words you have written but rest assured people will not forget.

I don't think there's anything further to be gained from any other posts.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 06:57 AM

Returning to the subject, this author details some more examples of antisemitism from the Labour Left.

""The Jews are rallying!" wrote Naz Shah in an infamous Facebook post just months before she was elected Labour MP for Bradford West. "Your school education system only tells you about Anne Frank and the six million Zionists [my emphasis] that were killed by Hitler", declared a Facebook post shared by Khadim Hussain, then a Labour Party councillor and formerly Lord Mayor of Bradford. "Many people know about who was behind 9/11 and also who is behind Isis. I've nothing against Jews … just sharing it!" declared Beinazir Lasharie, a Labour councillor in the London borough of Kensington and Chelsea.

Most notoriously, Ken Livingstone, then a member of the Labour Party's National Executive Committee and a former Labour Mayor of London, claimed in a radio interview in April this year that Hitler had been a supporter of Zionism before he "went mad and ended up killing six million Jews". Livingstone's bizarre and mischievous allegations have been refuted by a raft of eminent historians including Rainer Schulze, Professor of Modern European History at Essex University. Schulze unequivocally dismissed Livingstone's arguments, emphasising that: "[a]ny claim that Nazis and Zionists ever shared a common goal is not only cynical and disingenuous, but a distortion of clearly established historical fact."

The statements by Shah, Hussain, Lasharie and Livingstone – along with numerous other allegedly racist, anti-Semitic or inflammatory comments by individuals associated with Labour – have led to fifty suspensions from the Party. They also prompted Labour's Leader, Jeremy Corbyn, to convene an Inquiry into anti-Semitism and other forms of racism within the Party."

"As several commentators have pointed out, there is a growing tendency on the Left to disregard basic and important distinctions between such categories as Jews, "Zionists" and citizens of the state of Israel. Instead, Jews are frequently viewed by those on the Left as collectively responsible for the actions of Israel. As the Guardian columnist, Jonathan Freedland, has observed, the term "Zionism" has become "a codeword" in the rhetoric of the Left "that bridges from Israel to the wider Jewish world, hinting at the age-old, anti-semitic notion of a shadowy, global power, operating behind the scenes"."
https://www.socialeurope.eu/2016/08/where-left-meets-right-anti-semitism-in-europe/

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 06:45 AM

Jim,
Nobody has ever said such a thing -

They certainly have!
I quoted such figures then as Alibhai-Brown, Ahmed and Shafiq.
They all said that it was culture that led to the offending.
I just said I believed them. Why do you dismiss them all?
I neither knew nor know anything about that culture and could not form an opinion, but why would anyone dismiss their statements, and the many, many more that have been made by other prominent people since that 2011 discussion.

I always acknowledged that the offending was limited to a tiny minority.
I never have and never would make any racist statement, which is why your silly name calling is just that.

Raggy,
Powell was much criticised for his inflamatory statements at the time, but not for his use of that word.
Also, he left the Tory Party and supported Labour at the 74 election.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 06:07 AM

"The moving fingers writes; and having writ moves on, nor all thy Piety nor wit shall lure it back to cancel out half a line, nor all thy tears wash out one word of it"

Prophetic words from Omar Khayyam.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 06:03 AM

"I just said I believed those people. "
Nobody has ever said such a thing - you have never produced a single statement whic implicates the entire male Pakistani population in such a thing, you stated it as your own belief than desperately sought (and never found) statements that come near eves claiming such a thing
Immaterial anyway - any statement that accuses an entire population of being potentially rapists because of their culture is as extreme racist as it gets - whoever did or din't say it.
It is as culturally denigrating as claiming all black men have big dicks and want to have white women
The number of male Pakistanis (or other Muslims) involved in street grooming is less than a thousand - the Pakistani Population in Britain exceeds one million - so much for your "all male Pakistanis")
I repeat - had you made this statement publicly you would have been prosecuted.
As you still repeat your belief in it, you are still an extreme racist - end of story.
Piccanniny is a racist term, Johnson was cited in the press as being a racist when he used it - he is a racist and Britain has a racist Foreign Secretary - also end of story.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 05:45 AM

Enoch Powell in BRITAIN in 1968. Can you not read nor understand. 1968 is forty eight years ago.

Keep digging professor, the hole you're in is getting deeper with every post.

Why not do what you normally do and go crying to the Mods, or perhaps you realise that they too know the term is racist.

You cannot retract what is typed here, I'm would think that it is already noted on other web sites.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 05:29 AM

Rag,
politicians have been castigated for using the term for almost 50 years.

Only in USA.

The mere fact that YOU don't acknowledge the term for what it is does not make the word acceptable

Not just me. Read the thread.

, not in 2008 when Boris Johnson issued an apology

He actually said it back in 2003, and nobody thought anything of it then.
He denied that it was racist, and just apologised that his words had caused offence.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 05:21 AM

Rag,

You have failed to acknowledge that the word "piccanniny" is a racist term

Yes I have.
It has been in USA for decades, and is becoming more un-PC here lately, but that is recent.
Proof, this old thread, thread.cfm?threadid=33069#438827

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 05:13 AM

I just said I believed those people. Nothing racist in that.
They all ascribed the offending to culture.
Everyone is affected in some way, however slight, by the culture they have grown up with.

The "implanted" expression did not come from me. That was how the question was put to me.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 05:11 AM

Naming someone as a racist as you are is not "silly name calling" it is a serious issue and one that creates deep divides in any country.

You have failed to acknowledge that the word "piccanniny" is a racist term even though politicians have been castigated for using the term for almost 50 years. The mere fact that YOU don't acknowledge the term for what it is does not make the word acceptable. It is NOT acceptable, not today , not yesterday, not in 2008 when Boris Johnson issued an apology and not in 1968 when Enoch Powell controversially used the term.

Your refusal to accept the word as repugnant marks you down as a racist. No if's, no but's, no maybe's.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 05:08 AM

"It is not racist to believe eminent members of that community when they ascribe certain offending to aspects of their culture."
Whoevey you claimed said it, to describe the entire male Pakistani poplation of Britain is culturally implanted to rape children is deeply (and illegally) racist
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 04:54 AM

Rag,
Again, it is easy for anyone, even you, to call me silly names like racist, but you still can not actually challenge anything I actually say because all you have is lies and made up shit!

Jim,
You really don't want your "Pakistani cultural implants" dragged up again, do you

Yes please!
It is not racist to believe eminent members of that community when they ascribe certain offending to aspects of their culture.
Why don't you believe them?
Surely you do not imagine you know more about it!

This cropped up in 2011. They have not changed their views and I still see no reason to disbelieve them. Find me someone with actual knowledge who does.
Not, Nazir Afzal, Crown Prosecution Service's lead on child sexual abuse or Shaista Gohir, chair of Muslim Women's Network UK for a start.
"The Muslim community must accept and address the fact that Asian and Pakistani men are disproportionately involved in "localised, street grooming" of vulnerable girls, one of the UK's most senior prosecutors has said.

Nazir Afzal, the Crown Prosecution Service's lead on child sexual abuse, told a meeting of Muslims in Bradford on Thursday night that the community had to address the issue of street grooming and that Muslims could not assume that "someone else is dealing with it for us".

"We do have an issue with people of our ethnicity – it's not the issue but an issue – and we have to take care of it, we have to deal with it. The solution comes from within."

"Asked why Pakistani men are overrepresented in statistics relating to on-street grooming, Shaista Gohir, chair of Muslim Women's Network UK, said it was a complex issue but partly stemmed from a lack of respect for women and girls."
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/oct/31/muslim-community-street-grooming-nazir-afzal

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 04:04 AM

"Instead of calling me silly names like "racist," how about actually challenging something I have actually said."
You really don't want your "Pakistani cultural implants" dragged up again, do you
What are you, masochist?
Your contributions make you a racist Keith
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 03:57 AM

"The thread title is what Carroll?"
My title is what shithead?
"Has Britain got a "racist" Foreign Secretary? "
Yes - his racist statements make him a racist - nothing to do with what I think
JOHNSON the RACIST
Not racist to those who agree with him, of which, I have no doubt, you are one.
"Big fan of Political Party "cover-ups" are you Jom?"
I've given my reasons why I agree with the decision, if it was a cover up, it would have been condemned widely by the press.
You have refused to comment on the Party wide cover up of the racism and Islamophobia in the Tory Party, so I assume you are.
"Ehmmmm Jom, "
Ehmmmm, or resident little Fuehrer
"You most certainly have "made stuff up"2
Prove it - with links - get somebody to show you how to make one.
"you said that during the Great War Lord Kitchener was forced to resign."
Kitchener was forced to offer his resignation after is causing the death of British soldiers by having the wrong shells sent
"The admitted fact is that Lord Kitchener ordered the wrong kind of shell – the same kind of shell which he used largely against the Boers in 1900. He persisted in sending shrapnel – a useless weapon in trench warfare..... He alone was to advise the government and issue orders to commanders in the field. Kitchener's authority was more or less reduced to matters of manpower and recruitment.
As he himself put it, he was 'curtailed to feeding and clothing the army'. [23] The same men who had dragged Kitchener into the War Office in 1914 had effectively stripped him of his power but did not want his resignation. Each time he offered or threatened to resign, Asquith persuaded him that it was his duty to serve the King. [24] Essentially, Kitchener provided a buffer between the prime minister and his critics. Why did he not force the issue and resign, despite Asquith's insistence that he stayed? Kitchener was a proud man, yet he stood stripped of meaningful power like a glorified quartermaster. "
KITCHENER'S LETHAL BLUNDERING
- overstated maybe, but far from "made up" - your's and you mate's idiocy makes it unnecessary to make anything up, even if we were so inclined.
You, on the other hand, make up virtually every one of your claims, which is why you refuse to verify them with real information.
"Anglophobia"
You are the one who despises the British people by describing them lazy scroungers and demand they be forced to be turned into an itinerant work force and forced to live in - what exactly - tent towns, hostels, sleeping in the park... ? You refuse to share that pearl of wisdom
You also despise British achievements by describing British industry as "crap" and unworthy of support and insisting that we have to buy abroad.
The only respect you have for Britain is for the predatory rich, the monarch and the military (of which, you claim somewhat unbelievably, to have been one) - that is not Britain - it's just the decorative trimmings, the State mechanism and the hangers on.
Your insistence that the interests of the people must be subservient to The State is by definition, what makes you the Fascist you are.
"And I suggested all this when Jom? "
You didn't - Keith did
My remarks were addressed to him, if you managed to conquor your illiteracy and read what is written, you would know that - it's been pointed out often enough.
Surprisingly, the Universe does not revolve around what you have to say - you are a very unimportant incidental to these discussions - you are merely an unbelievably nasty and unstable irritant who is largely tolerated by a fairly easy-going group of people.
I was amused when you claimed that armaments was your thing - it brought back memories of your boastfully producing a photograph of your penis-substitute gun on the Homs (I think) thread - little more than an underdeveloped 'Good ol' Boy' at heart
Enough of these pleasantries - if you have any real evidence of a cover-up or antisemitism in the Labour Party, produce it (with evidence) - your one-man claims have ceased to be entertaining (in a bizarre way) and have now become somewhat tedious
What is that Antisemitism - how many are involved - where can we find that information - who else makes these claims - how do they compare to the racism, cover-up of Islamophobia - the bullying and the misogyny of the Tory Party?
I've responded to all your points - let's see how you go with these?
If you don't provide accompanying information, I really can't be arsed responding any more - I've had enough of your blustering bullshit   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 03:55 AM

You keep denying it is racist professor. You have been given examples where politicians have been castigated over many years for using the word and still you continue. (Johnson 2008, Powell 1968)

Naming you as a racist is not "silly name" calling. It is merely an acknowledgement of the fact that it is now beyond any doubt that you are a racist but please keep digging, it quite entertaining.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 03:39 AM

Rag,
Instead of calling me silly names like "racist," how about actually challenging something I have actually said.
It will never happen because you have nothing but lies and made up shit Rag.

It would seem not. Johnson has, over the years, made several racist comments which he has then had to apologise for.

If that is true it is disgusting, but all you have produced so far is a word that was not considered racist in this or any country other than USA.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 03:38 AM

Heh Heh Heh

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 03:05 AM

Well there you go Terribluster at least I tried, so don't start running to the Mods when you get upset.

" Has Britain got a "racist" Foreign Secretary? Just because you think it so Jom does not actually make it so thankfully"

Are you really that thick (don't bother to respond to that I already know the answer), do you not read the papers or watch the News or even read link provided on here. It would seem not. Johnson has, over the years, made several racist comments which he has then had to apologise for.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 01:47 AM

bobad - 01 Aug 16 - 08:30 PM

"What I may have said, and will say it again, is that Hamas starts wars with Israel knowing that they will retaliate then hides behind it's citizens so that it can use their deaths for propaganda."

What bobad says there is perfectly true, Hamas themselves make no secret of it, their spokesmen have even broadcast it as deliberate policy in televised interviews.

Disproportionate death tolls could have something to do with different approaches taken:

Israel:
15,000 missiles fired indiscriminately into Israel from Gaza since 2005 resulted in the Israeli Government creating "Iron Dome" - a system of warning radars that detect the launch of these missiles that provides the civilian population with audible warning of attack so that the population can enter thousands of shelters specifically built by the Israeli Government located in the areas subject to these attacks in order to protect the population.

Gaza:
15,000 missiles manufactured, stored, prepared and launched from within and from sites adjacent to schools, hospitals, and other sensitive location in the full knowledge that to protect it's own citizens Israel must engage those launch sites. While the IDF provide numerous and intensive warnings Hamas orders the civilian population of Gaza to ignore them, while the "fighters" and leaders of Hamas take shelter deep underground in concrete and steel bunkers that they have specifically built to protect themselves.

Israel's ultimate responsibility is to ensure the safety and security from attack of it's own citizens - it cannot be blamed for doing so - I would expect the same of my Government if this country came under attack.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 01:06 AM

Greg F. - 01 Aug 16 - 05:37 PM

As if Greg F. - you don't even appear on the radar.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 09:48 PM

just like the thousands of Israeli citizens of the Jewish faith who oppose the policies of the Israeli government and the atocities [sic] they commit.

More unsubstantiated made-up-shit™ from the usual suspect.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 09:33 PM

Jew haters who naturally blame Israel

Yup, Bubo, just like the thousands of Israeli citizens of the Jewish faith who oppose the policies of the Israeli government and the atocities they commit.

Jew-hating antisemites every one of 'em, right?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 08:30 PM

You accuse Hamas of killing the women and children in Gaza

No I never said that, just more made-up-shit™ from you.

What I may have said, and will say it again, is that Hamas starts wars with Israel knowing that they will retaliate then hides behind it's citizens so that it can use their deaths for propaganda. This makes them responsible for the deaths of it's citizens. This is plainly obvious to everyone except for Jew haters who naturally blame Israel for defending itself.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 08:08 PM

Bobad, you have a long history in both your guises of trying to shoot down anyone who either declares against the Israeli regime or who supports the Palestinian cause. You never see human beings as human beings. You accuse Hamas of killing the women and children in Gaza who the whole world can see were killed by IDF shells and rockets. You accept no criticism of the Israeli regime, ever. You define antisemitism in a way that puts Jewish people in a constant firing line, just like Bibi does. You don't see the irony of your putting Jews in harm's way in that regard. You are a hundred times more antisemitic than any Labour pottymouth. You are the enemy, just like Keith, of all the Jewish people. Yet you call us names. Oh, the irony.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 07:27 PM

Well, Teribus, if you ever told me that you "respected" me I think I'd have to submit to therapy to find out where I'd gone so badly wrong. Just consider: there's you, there's bobad, there's Keith and (if you're really unlucky) there's akenaton. Our working at getting your "respect" is our absolute bottom priority. You need to take stock, old chap. Only Keith is listening. That should make you feel uncomfortable. The purpose of debate is to persuade. You work against yourself in that regard, big time.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 07:24 PM

Why don't you reprint it then and we'll all see if I condemned the AFSC as anti-Semitic or if it just made-up-shit™ from you.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 05:49 PM

I see you've joined the made-up-shit crowd

Well, Bubo, on checking I see that your post a week back condeming the AFSC as antisemitic and my response to it at the time have both mysteriously disappeared!

However, I'm sure that there are others here beside myself that remember that it did in fact exist.

Now run along and cook up some more of YOUR made-up-shit.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 05:37 PM

my complete and utter lack of respect for any of you.

I'm sure they're gutted, T-Bird. Myself, I'd wear it as a badge of honor!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 05:29 PM

Raggy, taking into account what you have stated in your post - "Raggytash - 01 Aug 16 - 09:09 AM" - could you please tell me who is this "professor" chap you keep referring to?

"you continue to refer to me a Raggy, Jim as Jom (ever so childish) and Steve Shaw as Shaw. This not only shows a lack of intelligence it also clearly demonstrates a lack of education."

No Raggy what it shows quite clearly is my complete and utter lack of respect for any of you.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 05:24 PM

No he isn't, but you are. Listen to yourself.

Well, bobad, you've told us this week that you're not an Islamophobe and you're not an an antisemite either. Have you considered that you could be one of each? After all, there are two of you!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 05:16 PM

Jim Carroll - 01 Aug 16 - 08:55 AM

"The Labour party party dealt with the criticism and made recommendations - nothing from the Tories yet and nothing from you pair about the fact that Britain has a racist foreign Secretary - you made enough fuss about the Labour problem - doesn't racism and bigotry count if it comes from the right - obviously not."

The thread title is what Carroll?

Has Britain got a "racist" Foreign Secretary? Just because you think it so Jom does not actually make it so thankfully.

"The decision not to publish details of the Oxford enquiry was, as afar as I am concerned, a correct one.
It involved young people in the process of getting an education whose futuers depend on their not being a scandal attached to them in any shape or form - to people like you, being accused is tantamount to their being guilty, as you have amply demonstrated here."

Big fan of Political Party "cover-ups" are you Jom? Particularly if the cover-up is to protect the reputations of the next generation of the Labour Party's "young bloods" who may or may not have been ever so slightly anti-semetic whilst up at Oxford what?

"If there had been a serious problem, I have no doubt that the authorities would have dealt with it - in the light of the publicity this has received they could not afford to do otherwise."

Ah so just because you think that all is well - such astounding faith in the political establishment of the UK for someone whose views normally display such vehement and rabid Anglophobia. It was because of the publicity this matter received and what was contained in the report that Labour's NEC decided that it should not be published.

"If you have any information that the verdict that was reached was inaccurate or rigged, please offer it"

Ehmmmm Jom, what verdict are you wittering on about? There hasn't even been a trial. One thing is blindingly obvious though, after having read Baroness Royall's Report of her Investigation into the Oxford University Labour Club, Labour's National Executive Council decided that it was against the best interests of the Labour Party to have it's contents known by the British public.

"do you really think you are going to walk away from once again accusing me of making things up?"

Who's "walking away" Jom? You most certainly have "made stuff up" you said that during the Great War Lord Kitchener was forced to resign. So c'mon Jim tell us all when that was, give us the date, seeing as how you didn't make it up. Not "walking away" Jom - on the contrary we could open a thread on "Jim Carroll Made-Up-Shit" - the ball is in your court - all you need to prove me wrong is a date - the date Lord Kitchener was forced to resign as Secretary of State for War (Hint: It must be sometime between 5th August, 1914 and the 5th June, 1916.)

"Now - how about a withdrawal and an apology for suggesting that I made up the "self-hating Jews" statement"

And I suggested all this when Jom? Or are you just rambling on aimlessly in your usual incoherent style?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 04:29 PM

I would ask anybody to show a post where I have said that everybody who criticizes Israel is an anti-Semite but that request has become redundant with the made-up-shit™ crowd as they have not ever backed up one of their accusations and they are going to now........ho hum!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 04:07 PM

Not so, bobad old fruit. The argument is rock-solid. People like you but who are in positions of power put the Israeli Jews in harm's way. There is no hope for the peace and security that the Jews in Israel deserve while people like Bibi and his predecessors are in charge. That makes them, and you, rock-solid antisemites. If you think that constantly upping the ante for seventy years by being belligerent with their neighbours and constantly mistreating and seeking conflict with the Palestinians is what's good for Israeli Jews, well you're absolutely not on their side, are you? With "friends" like you and Keith the Jewish people of Israel and everywhere else will never be safe. And you are the threat, not a few silly but ultimately harmless people who should have engaged their brains before opening their mouths.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 03:48 PM

Bobad persists on calling everybody who criticises Israel a Jew hating Antisemite

More made-up-shit™ from the usual suspect......yawn!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 03:36 PM

Bobad accepted the definition provided by the European Working Group On Antisemitism, "
That definition includes that is is Antisemitic to blame the Jewish People for the actions of the Israeli Government.
Bobad persists on calling everybody who criticises Israel a Jew hating Antisemite - which is contrary to the definition - he is in fact blaming the Jews for Israeli atrocities.
Neith you or he are slightly interested in the Jewish people - you are entirely involved in defending Isreali terrorism, which is nothing to do with the Jews.
Even Jews who disagree with Israeli policy are attacked as being "self-hating (no apology or retraction yet - what kind of a worm are you?)
"and the offending statements themselves"
What offending statements - how do you know they are offensive if they were held back?
So far, the only statements made public (not by the Labour party) have been crticisms of Israel.   
"The answer is yes."
Who or is that to remain one of your little secrets, along with what statements were made.
So far, the people you have given who have suggested a serious problem were pro-Israeli activists, which confirms the charge that this has all been trumped up by that campaign.
What is the press not taking this up - it's an idael opportunity to bring down the Labour Party?
I get Murdoch's Times every day for the crossword.
Ever since the advent of Corbyn they have carried out a hate campaign against Labour with cartoons that make the old Anti-Irish Punch cartoons look like picture postcards - not a single word on antisemitism since the enquiries, not one - no accusations of a cover up - now why do you reckon taht is?.
This is a campaign by you and your two brain-dead mates long after the rest of the world has moved on.
"Chakrabarti refused to give hers too."
So what - I am not a member of the Labour Party, I don't support their policias and I don't vote for them.
What on earth does it have to do with this discussion?
Now, bout that retraction and apology!!
I think that, if you haven't the decency or the courage to retract and apologise forr your accusations, I really have finished with you people.
Your disgusting behaviour continues to foul up these threads.
You have no principles, no humaity and no decency - not one of you.
You reall are sorry excuses for human beings - all of you,
Happy to continue with anybody else, but you three raelly are the pits
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 03:24 PM

The trouble is that the professor (Keith A of Hertford) is still smarting as a result of him being shown to be a racist. Not only has he been "outed" as being a liar, the Wheatcroft fiasco, he has now been "outed" as a racist.

His problem being instead of acknowledging he is in the wrong he will continue to dig and dig, seek to justify his own position which only serves to further undermine what little standing he(if he has any) has on this forum.

Ignorance can be rectified, the professors problem is far deeper and probably incurable.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 03:18 PM

No, Boo, if you can accuse the American Friends' Service Committee.....

I see you've joined the made-up-shit crowd.......no surprise that.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 02:31 PM

Not even the EU accepted that definition, and never did. Ditched years ago. You are a thoroughly dishonest man, Keith, and it's a disgrace that you choose to resurrect this now, considering that you were demolished by the sword of truth months ago.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 02:09 PM

the European Working Group On Antisemitism

By the by, Professor, I thought y'all just voted yourselves OUT of the E.U. because they were a bunch of ignorant bureaucrats that couldn't tell their arses from a hole in the ground.

Now you SUPPORT the E.U. asnd its deliberations and pronouncements?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 02:03 PM

Say good-night, Professor. I'm not playing you game, nor BuBo's.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 02:01 PM

Greg,
you accept the definition that you've cooked up in your own warped and bigoted little mind.

Bobad accepted the definition provided by the European Working Group On Antisemitism, which all of you rejected.
It is you people you accept the definition that you've cooked up in your own warped and bigoted little minds, rejecting those in use by the EU and the Labour Party.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 01:57 PM

Jim,
Teribus implied it by suggesting that facts were held back

The names of all those guilty of antisemitic statements, and the offending statements themselves, were held back Jim!
Also the entire report into the OULC!

Steve, Jim asked "does anyone else claim it."
The answer is yes.
Do some people not count?

Jim,
there was no serious problem found.

Yes there was. That was why the inquiries were convened, and why those inquiries made so many recommendations to deal with it.

"every definition of anti-Semitism but yours is wrong"
You refuse to give us yours
Chakrabarti refused to give hers too.
We do have the EU criteria.http://www.antisem.eu/projects/eumc-working-definition-of-antisemitism/

Steve,
Frankly, I get along just fine without a definition.

You failed to recognise Naz Shah's antisemitic statements that were recognised by the Labour NEC and Shah herself, so you do not get along "just fine."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 01:44 PM

I accept the definition of anti-semitism as formulated by the community that is its target

No, Boo, if you can accuse the American Friends' Service Committee - which has served the cause of suffering humanity impartially since its founding - as opposed to small-minded idiots like yourself who do nothing consequential and only whine and point fingers - you accept the definition that you've cooked up in your own warped and bigoted little mind.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 01:30 PM

I accept the definition of anti-semitism as formulated by the community that is its target not that of a few regressive leftists on an internet folk music forum.

Who should define anti-Semitism?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 01:03 PM

Frankly, I get along just fine without a definition. I do object when people with ulterior motives improperly try to embrace legitimate aspects of criticism as antisemitism that have nothing to do with hating Jews because they are Jews. Like what you and Keith do, bobad. I haven't read a single comment here from anyone who has attacked Jews because they are Jews and you can't quote me any.

You should listen to Raggytash, Teribus. That patient man is painting an accurate picture of how you come across. You need to be far calmer, more measured and more constructive. All that acquired mass of information you have to hand is projected at us through a distorted lens, tinted with a very rigid, right-wing ideology. Baby out with bathwater. And if that sounds patronising, tough shit. We're going to keep telling you.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 12:34 PM

every definition of anti-Semitism but yours is wrong.

Right back atcha, Boo! Physician, heal thyself.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 09:48 AM

"every definition of anti-Semitism but yours is wrong"
You refuse to give us yours
As far as I am concerned, it describes attacks on the Jewish People - not their politicians, not those who excuse their behaviour be hiding by the dead of Auschwitz - we leave that to cowardly people like you.
Nobody, to my recollection, has ever attacked the Jewish people on this forum, with the exception of those who euqate Israeli atrocities with being Jewish (oh, and those who use terms like "Self hating Jews") - not here, but in general.
The offer of that donation still stands
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 09:14 AM

No more or less than anyone else, I imagine

Obviously not more that you and the rest of the flock who see fit to let everyone know that every definition of anti-Semitism but yours is wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 09:09 AM

Can't be arsed going back through your posts Teribus. However you, probably above all others, are the one person who complains about such Ad Hominem posts. For example a few months ago you mentioned the use of given pseudonyms yet you continue to refer to me a Raggy, Jim as Jom (ever so childish) and Steve Shaw as Shaw. This not only shows a lack of intelligence it also clearly demonstrates a lack of education.

If you really wanted a sensible debate you would refrain from such.

You may have noticed I have referred to yourself as Teribus for some time despite your continuing use of a abbreviation for myself.

Perhaps if you were to debate intelligently and cohesively instead of bullying and blustering insisting you are right and others are wrong your posts may carry more weight. The world isn't just black or white, it isn't just good or bad, much of the time there isn't even a clear right or wrong.

My views on most subjects are the product of the books I have read. I am aware there is a propensity to read things that will reinforce things that I preconceive, a natural enough line to take, but not necessarily the best one. Thus I attempt to read round a subject taking in the views of ALL sides so I may form my own opinions. I do not, as you seem to do, just regurgitate the views of the nearest (in your case right wing) diatribe I can find.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 08:55 AM

"No-one used that word about them!"
Teribus implied it by suggesting that facts were held back
If it wasn't rigged, you have no case - there was no serious problem found.
"Plenty of criticism though."
The criticism can be applied to any political party and any section of the British public
The Labour party party dealt with the criticism and made recommendations - nothing from the Tories yet and nothing from you pair about the fact that Britain has a racist foreign Secretary - you made enough fuss about the Labour problem - doesn't racism and bigotry count if it comes from the right - obviously not.
The decision not to publish details of the Oxford enquiry was, as afar as I am concerned, a correct one.
It involved young people in the process of getting an education whose futuers depend on their not being a scandal attached to them in any shape or form - to people like you, being accused is tantamount to their being guilty, as you have amply demonstrated here.
If there had been a serious problem, I have no doubt that the authorities would have dealt with it - in the light of the publicity this has received they could not afford to do otherwise.
If you have any information that the verdict that was reached was inaccurate or rigged, please offer it - so far you have given neither numbers or the nature of the accusation - you have dealt only in smears.
The verdicts of both enquiries seems to have been generally accepted - that's enough for me.
Talking of which - do you really think you are going to walk away from once again accusing me of making things up?
In your dreams.
You have exposed yourself once again as the unpleasantly dishonest individual you appear to be.
Now - how about a withdrawal and an apology for suggesting that I made up the "self-hating Jews" statement - you have had ample proof that it is now a standard way of describing opponents of the regime.
I am not a believer, but I have spent my life in the company of people who describe themselves as Christians and have learned to love them and respect their beliefs, even if I don't share them.
I have no idea what form of Christianity you aspire to but your vicious inhumanity and your dishonesty is far beyond my experience.
" run out of road "
You are the one who "runs out of road", refuses to provide evidence for your claims and eventually lapses into silence.
How about some links - to anything you have claimed?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 08:45 AM

"If you're not really bothered about Ad Hominem attacks why do you mention them so frequently" - Raggy

I don't mention them frequently.

I do naturally request substantiation for accusations and allegations, a pointless exercise so far as those coming out with these baseless accusations never, ever seem able to support them.

"Someone from the right wing (your)side has run off crying to the mods about this on more than one occasion. Perhaps that was you."

Not me Raggy - I prefer to trade like for like - and so far on this thread it would appear that it's "your side" that's doing the screaming.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 08:31 AM

No more or less than anyone else, I imagine. Unless you have a victimhood story about him to tell us. Care to expand?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 08:15 AM

And here we go, good old Hirsh again...

Right, he's just another one of them Jews, WTF would he know about anti-semitism.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 08:10 AM

He barely notices it but he spent all day yesterday raging about it! I'm beginning to think that I detect signs of an inferiority complex....now why didn't think of that before...

And here we go, good old Hirsh again...😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 08:06 AM

If you're not really bothered about Ad Hominem attacks why do you mention them so frequently while more often than not indulging in the same yourself. Someone from the right wing (your)side has run off crying to the mods about this on more than one occasion. Perhaps that was you.

If you feel a desire to slag me off please carry on. I really don't give a flying **** what you call me. Now if someone I respected were to criticise me I would take note, but an uneducated oaf, who considers an argument won because he shouts louder than anyone else who bullies and blusters more than anyone else, who demonstrates his profound ignorance at every turn I quite honestly feel sorry for.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 07:53 AM

Mudcat is not showing highlights just now.
Here is David Hirsh on Chakrabarti,

"What Shami Chakrabarti failed to do in this report was to explain how to recognise contemporary left wing antisemitism. She failed to describe it, how it operates, how it is sometimes hidden, and what its key tropes are.

She had every opportunity to do this in a way which could be easily understood because her inquiry was precipitated by a number of examples of left wing antisemitism. She could have gone through them and explained why they were antisemitic. She did no such thing. Indeed there were two incidents which happened at her very launch which illustrate precisely the kind of antisemitism which requires explaining and opposing....

In my submission to the Chakrabarti Inquiry, I wrote: "A bad apple theory will not do as an explanation for the current phenomenon of antisemitism on the left. We need to understand what the problem is with the barrel which has allowed so many apples to turn bad." "

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 07:47 AM

Raggy I have long ago accepted that when Jom, Steve & Co (Including yourself) run out of road they follow what is by now a very tired and worn out script. I have got so used to it by now that I barely notice their remarks and idiotic, groundless allegations that both Keith A and myself have continually demonstrated can never be substantiated. Please point out where in that last post of mine I complain or state my "objections" to their ad hominem attacks - I merely commented on the fact that that is what they do. I leave the bleating and complaining to them. They are very good a dishing it out to others then scream like stuck pigs when they get some of their own treatment back. You're like a flock of sheep - not an independent thought among the lot of you, if you had brains you'd be dangerous.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 07:36 AM

Jim,
Where is your evidence that The Labour investigations were rigged - does anybody else claim it?

"Rigged?" No-one used that word about them!
Plenty of criticism though.
Not of the Oxford enquiry obviously, because it has been withheld.
You have to wonder why.
Here is David Hirsh on Chakrabarti.

"What Shami Chakrabarti failed to do in this report was to explain how to recognise contemporary left wing antisemitism. She failed to describe it, how it operates, how it is sometimes hidden, and what its key tropes are.

She had every opportunity to do this in a way which could be easily understood because her inquiry was precipitated by a number of examples of left wing antisemitism. She could have gone through them and explained why they were antisemitic. She did no such thing. Indeed there were two incidents which happened at her very launch which illustrate precisely the kind of antisemitism which requires explaining and opposing....

In my submission to the Chakrabarti Inquiry, I wrote: "A bad apple theory will not do as an explanation for the current phenomenon of antisemitism on the left. We need to understand what the problem is with the barrel which has allowed so many apples to turn bad."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 06:03 AM

For someone who objects to Ad Hominem attacks as you have done so many times, you above all, seem to be the most vitriolic in this regard.

Care to read your last post again, the one where you complain of Ad Hominem attacks in the same post as you accuse Jim of being inferior.

If that is not an Ad Hominem attack perhaps you, with your vast higher education could explain the difference.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 05:50 AM

Show us your evidence for all your claims
I have not the slightest interest in aruing the toss with an arrogant bully who believes he can get away with top-of-the-head claims that have no substance in reality
You have been given link after link in all these arguments - you provide none and when asked to do so, refuse.
What kind of a NUTTER are you?
"What a truly pathetic, spineless and sorry lot you are."
Thanks again for that example of your arrogance - you're certainly racking them up.
Where is your evidence that The Labour investigations were rigged - does anybody else claim it?
I'll be asking your mate about his "made up shit" claim on "self-hating-Jews" when he gets home from church!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 05:36 AM

Oh I don't know about that Jim. You, Shaw and your pals having had your rather poorly presented arguments and points of view shredded on yet another thread so you lot have pretty much reverted to following your standard script:

1: Divert
2: Deflect
3: Then the baseless accusations are made
4: Then the insults and ad hominem attacks

Accused of being a "racist" none of you can come up with one single example to back-up your accusation - Situation normal.

Accused of being "Islamophobic" none of you can come up with one single example to back-up your accusation - Situation normal.

And then of course, to our collection of "Class Warrior" and would-be working-class "heroes" of the "Left", we've got to be "fascists" - well isn't everyone who disagrees with you.

This apparent inferiority complex you seem to suffer from Jom probably stems from the fact that you probably are genuinely inferior.

What a truly pathetic, spineless and sorry lot you are.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 04:26 AM

How can you possibly believe that somebody who permanently behaves like a strutting megalomaniac can ever be taken seriously (apart by themselves)?
Evidence - links - anything but sneery opinions!!
A reminder;
"How long have I spent on this Shaw? Obviously just about the right amount of time to reduce you to spouting meaningless twaddle"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 04:06 AM

Still can't find anything to say Jom?

C'mon Jom give us all a laugh tell us the date of Kitchener's resignation.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 03:47 AM

"How long have I spent on this Shaw? Obviously just about the right amount of time to reduce you to spouting meaningless twaddle"
See what I mean - raw blustering arrogance, arrogantly delivered?
Beautiful timing, by the way - many thanks!
What weapons did you need to serve up burnt scrambled eggs and greasy bacon?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 03:41 AM

You want to re-open lost battles by jackbooted friend, then start producing linked evidence rather than arrogant statements that we are expected to take at face value.
I link evidence to all my statements - you give nothing but your own opinions arrogantly delivered.
It is why you end up sprinting away from everything you take on - you are a blustering know-nothing who believes that if you shout and sneer loud enough your opinions will be accepted - they are not, it is why you have so few takers for your archaic and blimpish arguments.
You sneer at people who disagree with you and you permanently talk down to people as if you actually know anything.
Your mates are no better - Bobad has had "Jew-hater" permanently dubbed into his vocal chords and Keith has invented a system of stonewalling arguments with his "real historians" or "it must be true because "experts" say so, or the most recent with his defence of Israeli terrorism - that we can't believe anything we see on the television ore read in the paper because if it was true "democratic nations" would have nothing to do with them - arrant, juvenile nonsense.
The pair of you have developed a permanent defence, not by providing documented evidence of your own, but by describing anything that you don't agree with as "made up shit" - Keith's latest offering with his attitude to "self-hating jews".
He won't withdraw his accusation of it being made up, he won't apologise for having made the accusation - he will just creep away - until the next time - that's what he does.
A reminder of some self-hating Jews
We are all prone to making mistakes, none of us know everything, you you are the only person on this forum who appears to think he does nad sneers at anybody who doesn't accept his omnipotence.
Why not tart on your Road to Damascus with your latest single-handed invention.
If you believe the Labour reports are whitewashes - where is your evidence - who says so apart from you, Uriah Heep and the vitriol-spitting Bobad?
Where is the press outcry of whitewash, where is the evidence of major Antisemitism in the Labour Party - who says there is and why hasn't the Labour Party been publicly pilloried.
WHERE IS YOUR EVIDENCE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 03:13 AM

How long have I spent on this Shaw? Obviously just about the right amount of time to reduce you to spouting meaningless twaddle - three posts (Albeit one of them repeated/corrected - no idea why the second really didn't say much more of any importance than the first truncated version) saying nothing, adding nothing - par for the course.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jul 16 - 07:18 PM

"On weapons and armaments" - Well Jom that used to be an integral part of my job, I probably understand as much about weapons, armaments, strategy and tactics as you do about traditional folk music.

Well now this is interesting. Not only has he got a comprehensive knowledge of weapons and armaments, but he's also the man to consult about tactics and strategy too. Blimey, Churchill would've given an arm and a leg for you, mate! Could've shortened the war by years! Are you mentioned in any history books by any chance?

Of course, some people are just rotten at their jobs. Aw, that's unkind. But no more unkind than your comments about my teaching skills a while back. I suppose it depends on how much you value a good, sound education ...😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jul 16 - 06:59 PM

Huh, that went haywire. Here's the whole thing.

Blimey, Maggie's mouthpiece defending Pinochet! 😂😂😂

How long have you spent on this today, Teribus, what with your deep research into all those Labour scallywags? You are getting very obsessive yet only grey-man Keith, who agrees with your every word anyway, is listening. Feeling ok are you? It's been a lovely day outside and I've travelled the length of England today, fretting at having to miss the only sunshiny day in the offing all week (bloody M6). It may have escaped your attention but the world is passing you by on this one. You're getting boring. Look after your blood pressure is my advice.   

A quick word in your shell-like, bobad. I never, ever go whingeing to the moderators. Go on, why don't you ask them? Bet you won't! 😂 How old are you, sonny? 😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jul 16 - 06:49 PM

Blimey, Maggie's mouthpiece defending Pinochet! 😂😂😂

your attention but the world is passing you by on this one. You're getting boring. Look after your blood pressure is my advice.   

A quick word in your shell-like, bobad. I never, ever go whingeing to the moderators. Go on, why don't you ask them? Bet you won't! 😂 How old are you, sonny? 😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 Jul 16 - 05:57 PM

31 Jul 16 - 05:40 PM

And then there are the folks attempting to engage/dispute the vile vomit from this other bigoted brain-dead arsehole. Why? More masochism? Time better spent pounding salt down a rat hole.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Jul 16 - 05:40 PM

"There were 49 people at least in the Labour Party who were suspended for anti-Semitic behaviour"

Oot of a membership of 270,000 all were reinstated while investigations took place, none were expelled."

As nobody knows the detail or nature of the accusations;

As no-one apart form the sitting members of Labour's NEC have been able to read the Report.

I would say under such circumstances it would be the easiest thing in the world for the Labour Party's NEC to just sweep the dirt under the carpet wouldn't you? You are normally pretty good at "establishment" conspiracy theories Jom.

Jim Carroll - 31 Jul 16 - 01:27 PM

Teribus: "Give me an example of one of my "Made-Up-Facts" Carroll "

OK folks here is Jom's reply, please let me know if at any point in the following rambling, meaningless and pointless exercise in waffling anyone can identify the example requested.

"Your practice of making up claims or presenting half-truths which don't relate to documented facts - on weaponry and armaments, on Ireland, on British industry, on the lazy British people and the crappy nature of British products, on social history.... is legendary and endless."

"On weapons and armaments" - Well Jom that used to be an integral part of my job, I probably understand as much about weapons, armaments, strategy and tactics as you do about traditional folk music.

"On Ireland" - As demonstrated in threads on the "Troubles"; The 1916 Uprising; The Famine - My perspective is broader than yours and my knowledge a great deal more detailed than yours - you Carroll cannot even muster and appreciate details of even the simplest event, being wrapped up and driven by emotive twaddle as opposed to fact.

"British Industry" - according to Jom was so efficient and the products they produced were so in demand that Britain became the most successful country economically in Europe in the 1960s and 1970s - Hands up anyone who could support Jom's view on things? If so could you then explain why Britain, with all those workers working so hard, and all those world class products flying out the door to destinations all over the world, had to go cap in hand to the IMF for a bail out. Or why we had to shorten the working week to 3 days. Perhaps some of you could explain why it is economically more competitive to pay £250 per ton for coal to produce electricity for heavy industry than it would be paying £8 per ton.

"legendary and endless." - Yet Jom the infallible cannot find a single example, the best he can manage is to waffle on about generalities - but there again Jom has never been good on detail or specifics.

"Try the Homs Thread, The Irish Famine, Easter Week, World War one"

The Homs thread where Jom was shown to be a liar, whose overriding bigotry, bias and Anglophobia completely got the better of him and common sense, rationality and logic went straight out of the window.

Jim Carroll "made-up-shit" on this thread included Sniper rifles supplied by the British Government being used to kill civilians in Homs. This claim was made despite the fact that the British Government has never actually sold weapons to the Assad regime in Syria.

Jim Carroll "made-up-shit" on this thread changed to rifle ammunition being sold to Assad's regime - yet the ammunition identified would be impossible to use in Assad's Russian weapons ( The rounds are 12mm too long)

Jim Carroll "made-up-shit" on this thread quoted an Amnesty International Report dated March 2012 that he tried to say identified electrical equipment that was supplied by the British Government that was sold to Syria and used to torture prisoners - On investigation the Amnesty International Report of course said nothing of the sort.

There you go Jom - three specific examples of Jim Carroll "made-up-shit" on that one thread - there are others but quite frankly I cannot be arsed to detail them as we have so much ground to cover.

The Irish Famine - Jom's take on this is that it was deliberately engineered by the British Government with the express intention of exterminating the Irish Nation as part of a policy of deliberate genocide.

Perhaps he could explain why it wasn't more successful?

Perhaps he could explain why aid from the British Government amounted to ten times that of the next highest provider of aid (Cecil Woodham Smith: "The Great Hunger")

Perhaps he could explain how food could have been distributed without roads, harbours, storehouses and transport. Minor details I know but vital when it comes to feeding people in remote areas. So if you cannot get the food to the people, the people must come to the food.

Jom witters on about "The Famine" and food being exported from Ireland - He ignores and is not prepared to accept the fact that four times the amount of food that was exported from Ireland was imported into Ireland over the same period. He does this because it does not suit his biased take on things. The other thing he completely ignores is the fact that lack of food and starvation was not the cause of the drop in Ireland's population during the "famine" - Primary cause of depopulation was emigration: the second was death caused by diseases that at the time knew no cure, the third and way, way down in order of magnitude was hunger - so Jom's fixation on food exports is basically irrelevant.

Jom witters on about workhouses being closed down. Now as part of this British campaign of extermination they were responsible for establishing something like 165 poorhouses in Ireland to provide relief (Strange thing to do if you are trying to wipe them out I would have thought). The population was on the move, because they had to so as the demand and call on resources shifted facilities were shut down and others opened where they were needed.

"Easter Week" - Jom tried to tell us that the uprising had popular support - it didn't the majority of people in Ireland in 1914 and in 1916 backed the Home Rule aspirations championed and won by John Redmond. The Easter week Rising was supported by only 0.3% of the Irish population.

"Easter Week" - Jom tried to tell us that the 1914 Irish Home Rule Bill was defeated in the House of Lords - yet the 1914 Irish Home Rule Bill became the 1914 Government of Ireland Act on the 18th September 1914 - it is on the statute books so how on earth could it have been defeated in the House of Lords as Jom said? More Jim Carroll "made-up-shit".

"Easter Week" - Jom tried to tell us that the rebels did not collude with the Germans - yet a formal alliance was signed in November 1914, this alliance having been negotiated by Sir Roger Casement. The evidence and documented records show the extent of the collusion between the Rebels and the Germans - all conveniently ignored by Jom the Infallible.

Again loads more examples on this thread, but we must press on.

"World War One" - According to Jom, Lord Kitchener was forced to resign.

"World War One" - According to Jom, there were special squads of Military police who summarily executed British Soldiers who didn't get out of their trenches quick enough. Unfortunately for Jom he cannot provide any substantive evident for this scurrilous and baseless accusation. But Jom is big on baseless accusations and very poor on providing substantive evidence to back those accusations up.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jul 16 - 03:51 PM

" Israel has an opposition whose JOB it is to disagree with the government."
It is the job of an opposition to disagree when it disagrees - not to disagree on principle   
No State which attempts to set up a monotheistic Apartheid State (a term freely used by Israelis, Jews and non-Jews alike)can be described as "democratic"
No State which drives long residing non-Jewish residents to make room for settlers of he approved religion can be described as "democratic"   
No State which drives nomadic peoples onto a toxic rubbish site in order to take over their land can be described as "democratic"
No State which facilitates the massacre of 3,500 unarmed refugee can be described as "democratic"
No state which uses chemical and anti-personnel weapons on civilians can be described as "democratic"
No people who massacres thousands of civilians and destroys their homes, hospitals, places of learning and the means of living and can be described as "democratic"
No State which installs a ten-year long blockade on a neighbour in order to starve them into submission can be described as "democratic"
No State which builds a wall dividing families of their means of sustenance and living can be described as "democratic"
No state which regards opposition to their political and military actions as "antisemitic" or Anti-British, or Un-American can be described as "democratic"
Israel is an extremist, right-wing State run for the benefit of those who fit required religious or racial concepts, it can never be described as "democratic"
Far from being a "democracy", Israel is a repressive undemocratic State bearing all the characteristics of previous fascist states - that is a description being used by Jews and non Jews, including Israelis.   
"MADE UP SHIT "
The Holocaust survivors who signed the petition were described the same recently
""There have long been efforts to identify anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism in an effort to exploit anti-racist sentiment for political ends; 'one of the chief tasks of any dialogue with the Gentile world is to prove that the distinction between anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism is not a distinction at all,' Israeli diplomat Abba Eban argued, in a typical expression of this intellectually and morally disreputable position (Eban, Congress Bi-Weekly, March 30, 1973). But that no longer suffices. It is now necessary to identify criticism of Israeli policies as anti-Semitism -- or in the case of Jews, as 'self-hatred,' so that all possible cases are covered."
Noam Chomsky
Critics of Israel
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 Jul 16 - 03:35 PM

31 Jul 16 - 02:03 PM

Same old twisted BooSpew. Move along, nothing to see here.

P.S. Why does anyone continue to attempt to engage/dispute the vile vomit from this bigoted brain-dead arsehole? Pure masochism? There have to be better ways to spend one's time - voting for The Trumpsh*t, perhaps....pretty much the same thing at the end of the day.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 31 Jul 16 - 02:57 PM

Keep digging professor, even Bobad accepts it was a racist term in America as early as 1939 as I KNOW it was in early 1960's Britain.

The more you try to explain your racism the deeper in you go.

I am not at all surprised by your attitude and your pathetic attempts to exonerate yourself.

Please keep it up.

Link

You may wish to take notice of the reference to Enoch Powell in 1968 when it was considered racist.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Jul 16 - 02:33 PM

Jim, Israel has an opposition whose JOB it is to disagree with the government.
Likewise a free press and media that is constantly disagreeing with the government.

So, your assertion that the regime "have insulted all Jews who disagree with them as "self-hating" is made up shit Jim, like so many of your claims.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jul 16 - 02:28 PM

"On the left, black people are usually allowed to define what's racism;
Jews are entitled to define racism - right wing political fascist regimes usaully define it to defend their right wing political fascism
As much as you would like it to be the case, the behaviour of the Israeli regime has nothing to do with being Jewish and everything about it being the bahaviour of a right wing fascist regime.
The Israelis are well aware of this and have insulted all Jews who disagree with them
as "self-hating" - Holocaust survivors and their families, ex Mossad officials, army generals, intellectuals, humanists, Rabbis, journalists.... all "self hating Jews"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Jul 16 - 02:27 PM

Rag,
I know when I was a child "piccanniny" was understood to be a racist expression.

No it was not.
Your memory or honesty are at fault.
I have produced an old Mudcat thread to support my asserttion.
You will never be able to produce anything because your assertion is bollocks.

I think you will find professor that I have never mentioned Naz Shah, not once, not ever.

True for once Rag. What you did say was,
"If you do not recognise the term "piccannines" as being racist (which even Bobad accepts) you are an abject racist."

So by your logic, "If you do not recognise Naz Shah's bile as being anisemitic (which even Shah herself accepts) you are an abject antisemite."

See what I did there Rag?
Now, both Steve and Jim denied that her statement was antisemitic, but she herself, the NEC and the Party agree it was.
That makes Steve and Jim abject antisemites according to you then Rag.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 31 Jul 16 - 02:12 PM

I think you will find professor that I have never mentioned Naz Shah, not once, not ever.

I know when I was a child "piccanniny" was understood to be a racist expression.

Johnson was criticised and apologised for using the term.

You (and now Teribus) are seeking to excuse the use of the word.

As I have already stated if Johnson apologised for using the word because it was implicitly acknowledged as racist it is a racist expression.

By continuing to use the word YOU ARE A RACIST.

Everyone on this forum has had it proved beyond any doubt that YOU ARE A RACIST.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Jul 16 - 02:06 PM

There are only two contender to be leader of the Labour Party.
One of them said this, and that was AFTER Chakrabarti.

"A fresh row has broken out over the scale of abuse and intimidation in the Labour Party, as Owen Smith claimed Jeremy Corbyn must "take more responsibility" for the concerns that have led to the suspension of most constituency Labour Party (CLP) meetings across the country.

Leadership challenger Smith has claimed that the level of "abuse, misogyny and anti-Semitism" in the party has risen since Corbyn's victory last September. His intervention comes after Angela Eagle suspended surgeries in her constituency after consulting police and experiencing threats to her and her staff. She has also accused Corbyn of "stirring" up problems."

"Speaking to the BBC today, Owen Smith said that Corbyn has "effectively… licensed" the abuse of Labour MPs, and that the leader's response "is not good enough".

"Jeremy Corbyn should take more responsibility for what's going on we didn't have this sort of abuse, intolerance, misogyny and anti-Semitism before Jeremy became leader," Smith said.

"Angela is right it has effectively been licensed over the last nine months."
http://labourlist.org/2016/07/senior-labour-figures-in-row-over-level-of-abuse-in-the-party/

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 31 Jul 16 - 02:03 PM

they are far fromexamples of atisemitism [sic] and are now accepted as valid opinions - Istael [sic] is no [sic] The Jewish People and criticism such as this cannot be considered Antisemitic.

"On the left, black people are usually allowed to define what's racism; women can define sexism; Muslims are trusted to define Islamophobia. But when Jews call out something as antisemitic, [regressive] leftist non-Jews feel curiously entitled to tell Jews they're wrong, that they are exaggerating or lying or using it as a decoy tactic – and to then treat them to a long lecture on what anti-Jewish racism really is."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Jul 16 - 01:53 PM

Rag,
It never had racist connotations here.
Is Kevin McGrath of Harlow a racist because he remembers it being used about all children?

Now,
"If you do not recognise Naz Shah's bile as being anisemitic (which even Shah herself accepts) you are an abject antisemite."

Do you see what I did there Rag?
By your own logic you three are "abject antisemites."
For shame.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jul 16 - 01:27 PM

Missed a bit
"Give me an example of one of my "Made-Up-Facts" Carroll "
Your practice of making up claims or presenting half-truths which don't relate to documented facts - on weaponry and armaments, on Ireland, on British industry, on the lazy British people and the crappy nature of British products, on social history.... is legendary and endless.
You have been challenged on it before - you either try to bluster and bully your way out of it or you just stay silent.
It is why you never link anything and why you have refused all requests to do so.
Try the Homs Thread, The Irish Famine, Easter Week, World War one - every one of your racist or class superior or atrocity excusing crusades.
You are know as being a bluffer who attempts to cover up your ignorance and dishonesty with personal insults and abuse.
"Mirror, mirror on the wall,
Who is the biggest bullshitter of all" - to borrow from one of the few fairy-tales that wasn't all your own work
Jim Carroll

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jul 16 - 12:55 PM

But...But..."Jom " everything I have written contains the information I got from the link that YOU, YOURSELF PROVIDED
"."Jom " "
My goosestepping friend.
" I have written contains the information I got from the link that you provided"
Soo based on what is no more than a superficial list of racist incidents, you attempt to write off a whole list of examples as unimportant basically because they were apologised for, and do't bother to go any further.
In fact, they are the tip of a much larger iceberg and include some serious examoples of racism.
The one where the Councillor said there were "too many Pakis" was investigated by the police to find if it was liable for prosecution - his excuse for making it was he "did't know the meeting was being filmed".
The list includes the last Prime Minister and the newly appointed Home Secretary - that is how seriously the Tory Party regard the issue of racist, not just within the general membership, but including high officials and members of the government.
The question of accusations of Islamophobia have not even been considered.
"Those involved have been investigated, suspended"
not true - most have been ignored, a few have beer reprimanded.
These cases are worse than the accusations that the Labour Party has been found not guilty of.
Accusation of racism, sexism and bullying abound in the Tory Party and go ignored, Labour carried out two investigations immediately any accusations were made - none involved senior figures and most were connected with criticism of Israelk's terrorist behaviour.   
Your list of what was included in the must do in the future recommendations are confirmation that no serious incidents were discovered, this has been confirmed by the fact that the report has not been challenged by the Labour party members themselves ot by the national press.
If there had been any attempts at a cover up the right wing press would have made a meal of it and we would still be hearing about it - it was a non-event.
"There were 49 people at least in the Labour Party who were suspended for anti-Semitic behaviour"
Oot of a membership of 270,000 all were reinstated while investigations took place, none were expelled.
Typical examples of why these suspensions took place were, in realation to the US support for Israeli terrorism, that "Israel should be re-located to the US, and another, "A reminder of the treatment and suffering of Jews in Nazi Germany. Are there any similarities to how Israel is treating Palestinians?"
Remarks such as these are being made regularly by Israeli opponents of the present regime - including by ex Secret Service members and high ranking officers in th Israeli army - given the criminal behaviour of Israel they are far fromexamples of atisemitism and are now accepted as valid opinions - Istael is no The Jewish People and criticism such as this cannot be considered Antisemitic.
"you dull PRAT"
You nasty, goose stepping, atrocity denying, racism appeasing fascist
Feckin' grow up, you infantile eejit
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Jul 16 - 12:26 PM

It has been interesting what you turn up when you start looking at words. Take the word "piccaninnie", or whatever way you wish to spell it (There are literally dozens of different spellings the world over) but it would appear that only in the UK and in the USA is it considered racist or derogatory.

In the Caribbean, Northern Territory in Australia, throughout Melanesia and in Papua New Guinea it just means small or a child (Any child). I think it was on the 10th January, 2002 that Boris Johnson came out with his sarcastic article about "the Queen has come to love the Commonwealth, partly because it supplies her with regular cheering crowds of flag-waving piccaninnies." which he later apologised for. Advance the clock some ten years or so and here is how HRH Prince Charles was officially referred to in the Press in Papua New Guinea - "nambawan pikinini blong Kwin" and apparently he was not offended at all, he even adopted it when talking to native speakers of the Tok Pisin language.

As the usage of the term has all but died out in our language, where it never belonged in the first place, I think I would leave it to those who do use it daily to determine if it is offensive or not.

But just had a thought though in the context that Boris used the term. IF what he had in mind when he wrote his article and he was describing the Queen visiting Melanesia, then in their local parlance and usage he wasn't being too inaccurate and he would certainly not be regarded as being offensive . In Vanuatu, on the Island of Tanna out in the Melanesian chain the population regard HRH The Duke of Edinburgh as some sort of deity - no accounting for taste. But according to their culture and folklore they believe that he is their ancestral spirit as one of their legends tells of a pale skinned man who sailed across the Oceans to find and marry a rich and powerful woman. Now I can see how to them Prince Philip would fit the bill.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 31 Jul 16 - 10:56 AM

The mere fact that you do not recognise "piccaninnies" as racist speaks volumes. It shouts loud and clear for all to see I AM A RACIST.

Question for you, if it wasn't recognised as racist here, as you weakly claim, why did Johnson issue an apology.

Sheesh. Keep digging professor.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Jul 16 - 10:44 AM

Steve Shaw - 31 Jul 16 - 03:41 AM

1: "Well if any criticism at all of Hamas and Hezbollah is Islamophobic, that makes me thoroughly Islamophobic, seeing as 'ow my post is full of it! See, Teribus, I speak as I find. I won't deny their faults. I wish they were better."

Missed the point being made entirely Shaw but that is only to be expected - I'll run it past you again - you are free to criticise Israel as that cannot in any way, shape or form be viewed as being anti-Semitic - yet others cannot criticise Hamas or Hezbollah as that is according to you Islamophobic.

Your criticism of the deeds of the likes of Hamas and Hezbollah are demonstrated above, mild in the extreme. You might not deny their faults but you certainly do not go out of your way to mention them and you always seem to find excuses for them - Fact no attacks on Israel from Gaza results in no attacks by Israel on Gaza. You might think or wish that they better as much as you want, but you still advocate supporting them in the full knowledge of what they are.

2: But look at your loyal, valiant and BLIND defence of the nation that kills a hundred times more people with no regard as to how many children, which steals the best land and which has entrapped over a million in the world's biggest prison.

Nothing "loyal, valiant and BLIND" about it Shaw - mere observation. Any nation on earth has the right to defend itself. Since 2005, when the Israelis unilaterally pulled out of Gaza, over 15,000 missiles of some sort or another have been fired indiscriminately into Israel from Gaza. If they were French missiles being fired across the channel into England I would certainly hope that the UK would lay waste to and destroy whoever it was that fired the first missile - they certainly would not hang around until the numbers had reached the hundreds, let alone thousands.

As to attacks on civilians being made with no regard by the IDF. Independent observers have commented on the extraordinary steps taken by the IDF to keep such casualties to an absolute minimum. Logic and common sense would tell you that if what you said was true the population of Gaza would have been wiped out 10 years ago.

The only land that has ever been stolen in Palestine was Gaza by the Egyptians in 1948 and East Jerusalem and the West Bank by Jordan in the same year. That land was restored to Palestine in 1967 by the IDF.

When the Egyptians and the Jordanians took and occupied those chunks of Palestine in 1948 they rounded up the Arabs of Palestine and shut them up in "Refugee Camps" - they have lived there ever since, it suited the political purposes of the Arabs to use these unfortunates as political bargaining chips. Gaza is no prison, the solution is simple, stop the attacks on Israael, eject those fomenting trouble, then prosper.

3: Your egregious defence of that nice General Pinochet puts you firmly in the fascism camp. You won't hear a single bad word. Unbelievable. Any nice things you want to tell us about Franco while you're here? He kept the lid on and handed over peacefully too. Lovely feller!

I didn't know that I had mounted any sort of defence egregious or otherwise of General Pinochet - I think I said Pinochet's Chile, not General Pinochet himself. Pinochet and Franco - comparing apples to oranges Shaw. In Chile a Provisional Constitution was drawn up in 1980 and Pinochet and the military were working towards a return to democratic rule. In 1987 a referendum was held that would have granted Pinochet another possible eight years in Office as President, the people of Chile rejected this and things were put in motion for an election. The Provisional Constitution was debated and suggested amendments made via consultation with all political parties. When that was done the New Constitution was put before the people and they voted to accept or reject it in another referendum - they accepted it and elections were held. Pinochet accepted the results of both referenda and of the election. Franco on the other hand consulted nobody and named his successor as Head of State then died. Now in one of those instances I can detect a certain willingness to adhere to and accept the democratic process, with the other it is merely the continuance of the same old autocratic, authoritarian, dictatorial rule.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Jul 16 - 10:21 AM

Rag,
If you do not recognise the term "piccannines" as being racist (which even Bobad accepts) you are an abject racist.

I know it is considered racist in US, but not here.
Un-PC maybe.
Read the old thread. The term was used for any child.
If that is all you have on Johnson, it is not proved.
Anything else?

How about "If you do not recognise Naz Shah's bile as being anisemitic (which even Shah herself accepts) you are an abject antisemite."

What does that make you, Steve and Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Jul 16 - 09:52 AM

Apologies I forgot this classic from Jim Carroll's post:

"I don't need to ask Steve anything - the addition I put to his statement stands on its own mrits"

Well, well Jom I didn't know that Boris Johnson had been appointed as Israel's Foreign Minister, I didn't even know that he was a member of the Knesset.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Jul 16 - 09:48 AM

Jim Carroll - 31 Jul 16 - 08:07 AM


"As you have not linked to any of your claims I will treat them with the distrust with which I regard all your claims.
You have a nasty habit of making up "facts"

But...But..."Jom " everything I have written contains the information I got from the link that YOU, YOURSELF PROVIDED - So what have I got to reference - you dull PRAT.

Give me an example of one of my "Made-Up-Facts" Carroll - I can give you a ready made list of the howlers you have tried to pass as "facts" in discussions on this forum - To date you have been unable to detail a single one from me.

27 instances going back over 31 years involving 25 people who were all named whether they were guilty or not - That is the apparent case in the Conservative Party. Your claim was that there was no action taken - But by reading the link YOU PROVIDED we find that that is not the case. Those involved have been investigated, suspended, expelled, subject to resignation and where appropriate they have been exonerated and cleared. But it was all done in the open for all to see - nothing hidden.

Let's have a look at the Labour Party. They make a big thing about mounting investigations and inquiries after 50 members are suspended for anti-Semitism, then more and more allegations made by members of the Labour Party start coming out about other abuses within the Party and all of a sudden no names are to be mentioned, the report into the anti-Semitic abuses within the OULC is suppressed by Labour's NEC.

Eleven recommendations for immediate and sustained action are tabled by Baroness Royall. She makes a further seven suggested recommendations in the light of further allegations to Shami Chakrabarti and I see that Shami ignores the most important ones.

But she does suggest that within the Labour Party:

1: A moratorium on any charges of abuse - in effect "all-sins-of-the-past" are forgiven and cannot be investigated

2: A time limit must be introduced for any complaints

3: No lifetime bans from the Party as people can have a "change of heart" - they can apologise for past actions - Naz Shah recently went this route over anti-Semitic comments that she made as did Tony Blair, he apologised for the Iraq War.

4: There were 49 people at least in the Labour Party who were suspended for anti-Semitic behaviour, no idea how many complaints there were for sexist and misogynist behaviour, or for intimidation and making violent threats against those viewed as not toeing the Corbyn party line by Momentum. And we haven't a clue who any of these people are, we don't even know if they were guilty or innocent of the accusations made against them - all covered-up by the NEC.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 31 Jul 16 - 08:33 AM

I'll call you a big baby now before you even say it.

Call me all the names you like, I consider the source and laugh myself silly. And don't worry I won't run crying to the mods like you do.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jul 16 - 08:21 AM

Incidentally,
The number of cases of Tory racism, particularly regarding the Foreign Secretary, is a clear indication that, while it has been established that while there is no major problem with any kind of racism or bigotry in the Labour Party, the situation in the ruling Conservative Party is very different.
Johnson's appointment confirms that either racism has reached and Institutional level or it is not regarded as important in multi-cultural Britain.
Apart from the international implications, I'm sure that all non British residents will rest easy in their beds knowing their welfare is in safe hands
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jul 16 - 08:07 AM

Apology made - don't all politicians do that when they've been caught out?
Johnson is a serial racist and should never have been appointed Foreign Secretary - no self respecting nation should ever place such a political deadweight into such a position.
"All 25 individuals named and shamed"
Doesn't make any difference that they were named and shamed, they are indications of the racism that pervades the Tory Party, who have yet to respond to a demand for an enquiry into Islamophobia.
As you have not linked to any of your claims I will treat them with the distrust with which I regard all your claims.
You have a nasty habit of making up "facts"
"Jom ".
Still sieg heiling your way through this forum, I see.
I don't need to ask Steve anything - the addition I put to his statement stands on its own mrits

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Jul 16 - 07:12 AM

Jim Carroll - 31 Jul 16 - 05:54 AM

"BLIND defence of the nation that kills a hundred times more people with no regard" {Steve Shaw}
And appoints a racist as Foreign Secretary"

Oooooh Jom - you jumped in with both feet and got it wrong AGAIN didn't you - ask Shaw for an explanation.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Jul 16 - 07:05 AM

Jim Carroll - 31 Jul 16 - 03:14 AM

Thanks for the link Jom - proves the points I am trying to make admirably.

With the Labour debacle over anti-Semitism, violent behaviour, misogyny, etc we have been told of allegations and no names have been named and the Royall report requested by Labour's NEC will not be published. The Chakrabarti Inquiry basically serves as to draw a line under the issues and one of its recommendations closes the doors an any investigation of incidents prior to her investigation and submission of her report (That would in effect mean that the vast majority of the incidents linked to by Jom would not be investigated by the Labour Party today). Within the membership of the Labour Party there were some 50 suspensions and I can only recall one named individual - Naz Shah who admitted and apologised for her comments and behaviour and that was considered sufficient.

Jom's link details 27 instances involving 25 individuals who are ALL named. Jom deplores the lack of investigation and action taken - Let's take a look at them:

1: Apology made (Good enough for Labour with Naz Shah good enough for the Conservatives)

2: Apology made - ditto above

3: Apology made - ditto above

4: There was an investigation and the offender was forced to make a public apology.

5: There was an investigation and the offender was forced to make an apology and attend "Diversity Training"

6: Offender forced to make an official apology

7: Offender suspended from the Conservative Party

8: Council decision that no action be taken

9: Expression of opinion

10: Offender suspended from the Conservative Party

11: Offender sacked from his job within the Party, full investigation ordered and carried out, subject of the investigation cleared by the Inquiry.

12: Incident investigated by the Police and subject of the investigation cleared by the police.

13: A joke at the expense of "political correctness", an extremely poor one, although quite accurate, but nonetheless a joke told in private.

14: Offender resigned

15: Account contradictory UCL Conservative Society was investigated and apologies were made.

16: Offender resigned

17: Expression of a personal opinion. Expressing your opinion does not make policy it does not constitute fact.

18: Offender apologised and was suspended from the Party.

19: Offender apologised

20: Storm in a teacup. No action could be taken by the council as the alleged "offender" although he had been elected he had not yet signed the "Declaration of Office" so Council could not take any official action - all explained at the time. The Police who did investigate described the complaint as "pathetic" and remarked that there was nothing to investigate particularly after questioning the two people who were alleged to have been racially abused - Rav Thakir ("The Indian") did not regard the remark as racist and Councillor Thonk ("The Chink") regarded it as light hearted humour, the person who made the remarks having referred to himself as "The Whitey" The incident arose at the election of three Conservative Councillors who happened to win seats that Labour supporters thought they should have held - the police received only two complaints and they did investigate - no case to answer.

21: Offender suspended from the Party.

22: No case to answer. The remarks were made in 1985 and the actions of those who participated in the Broadwater Farm Riots did display "Bad moral attitudes"

23: Politicians poor choice of words certainly not racist, anti-Semitic, islamophobic or anything else.

24: Offender apologised and warnings issued by Conservative Party regarding choice of wording in online communications.

25: No action, exercise in free speech. Factually correct statement relating to Barak Obama on both counts.

26: Offender expelled from the Party

27: Offender suspended from the Party.

All 25 individuals named and shamed whether they were guilty as charged or not. The contention was that no action was taken whereas the truth was that rather a lot of action was taken - and we, the public, sure as hell know a great deal more about these 27 instances than we do about what has been happening within the Labour camp where there were at least 50 suspensions.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jul 16 - 05:54 AM

"BLIND defence of the nation that kills a hundred times more people with no regard "
And appoints a racist as Foreign Secretary
Not worthy of comment for this pair of tossers who have flogged this proven to be long dead horse till it's little more than a bloody pile of bones.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jul 16 - 03:41 AM

Hmm. Well if any criticism at all of Hamas and Hezbollah is Islamophobic, that makes me thoroughly Islamophobic, seeing as 'ow my post is full of it! See, Teribus, I speak as I find. I won't deny their faults. I wish they were better. But look at your loyal, valiant and BLIND defence of the nation that kills a hundred times more people with no regard as to how many children, which steals the best land and which has entrapped over a million in the world's biggest prison. Your egregious defence of that nice General Pinochet puts you firmly in the fascism camp. You won't hear a single bad word. Unbelievable. Any nice things you want to tell us about Franco while you're here? He kept the lid on and handed over peacefully too. Lovely feller!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jul 16 - 03:14 AM

As has been pointed out, elsewhere in the world the "labour antisemitism" accusation is a done deal - groundless, proced false - a dead parrot
The attempts of tyour Israeli friends to undermine British politics by attacking the Labour Party, which, under Cotby, will possibly play a part in supporting a boycott of Israeli goods (which was what this was all about) failed miserably
No major antisemitism was uncovered and, to make sure it is never an issue, Labour has issued a number of guidelines for the future - nothing to do with there ever been a problem but a safeguard against the Israelis having adopted a policy of making all criticism of its actions "antisemitic" (of which you ad your thuggish mate have refused to comment - at least the vitriol-spitting Bobad had had the bottle to say he agrees with it)
"All racism is deplorable"
Despite the fact of your having made the most racist claim ever to be made on this forum, aimed at around one million British citizens - a statement that would have been liable to prosecution had it been made publicly!!
"but I am not aware of any government racists."
You deny Johnson made his "PICCANINNY" statements then?
BRITAIN HAS A FOREIGN SECRETARY WHO IS PRONE TO MAKING RACIST STATEMENTS - EVEN ABOUT ALLIED HEADS OF STATE
This is simple hypocrisy from two extremist right-wing fanatics on a mission.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Jul 16 - 03:07 AM

Steve Shaw - 30 Jul 16 - 07:37 PM

1: "Well, at least you answered your own question."

Which one? You certainly wouldn't, you never do.

2: "I thought for a second that you were presenting me with a real challenge, but then you went and spoiled your case with a fully-expected Islamophobic rant about the two organisations who are trying to run benighted territories whilst keeping Israel at bay."

And you chose to ignore it as you normally do.

Which one of you clowns steadfastly proclaims that it is not anti-Semitic to criticise Israel? Yet according to you any criticism of either Hamas or Hezbollah is Islamophobic!! - What a good little "Animal Farm Socialist" you are Shaw - Firm believer in there being "one sauce for the goose and another for the gander" because we should all know that "some animals are more equal than others". All that shows about you is that you are duplicitous and hypocritical.

Hate to have to point the blatantly obvious out to you Shaw but Hamas and Hezbollah are "keeping nothing at bay" - THEY are the problem, they are purposely keeping the conflict running because that is what their Iranian paymasters demand. The second they stop doing Iran's bidding the flow of arms and money stops and both those organisations are toast.

I think that purely going by track record that you can establish very rapidly that "try to run two benighted territories" is well down the list of priorities of either Hamas or Hezbollah. In the time that they have been "in power" intolerance and repression have flourished and despite the enormous sums of money given by the international community neither have succeeded in doing anything to advance the living conditions and quality of life of those they "govern".

Tell me who are the Israelis attacking and killing right at this moment? Nobody. Why? Because nobody is attacking them right at this moment. Egypt, Israel's most implacable and constant foe from 1948 until 1979 when their Peace Agreement was signed. Since March 1979 how many times have Egypt and Israel fought? I think that you will find that their Peace Agreement has lasted, why? Because Israel over the last 37 years has not been threatened or attacked by Egypt.

3: "But they happen to be in charge and we do have a long history of propping up far worse people (your hero Maggie thought the WORLD of Pinochet!)"

Thankfully and to our great credit I do not believe that we, here in the UK as a nation, are actually propping up either Hamas or Hezbollah, even although Jeremy Corbyn describes them as his friends.

I do believe that Margaret Thatcher as Prime Minister of the United Kingdom did have good reason to be grateful to Pinochet's Chile due to the support they provided during the Falklands Conflict - they saved the lives of British Servicemen. Pinochet was replaced how Shaw? By force of arms or by democratic process that he himself initiated? I think that you find it was the latter. Can you see either Hezbollah or Hamas EVER even remotely considering doing that? I certainly can not.


4: Now we have the Shaw questions that must be addressed {Would that he was so good at answering questions put to him}:

"So tell me. What you gonna do about them? Who would you put in their place? No, honestly, I really do want to know what your solution is!"

Well it would appear that your solution would be to side with, "prop up", support to the hilt and ensure expansion of their power and influence of those you know to be - Nasty; Anti-Semitic; Totalitarian; Belligerent - and all at the expense of the only democratic country and haven of political and religious tolerance in the entire region.

What would I do with regard to Hamas and Hezbollah? I would relentlessly expose them for exactly what they are - corrupt, inefficient bandits who have robbed the people they purport to "govern" of their freedom, security and any hope of future prosperity.

"Who would you put in their place?" Well for a start I wouldn't put anybody in their place, as that would be up to population wouldn't it? But let's face it anybody would be a vast improvement on what they have now.

"No, honestly, I really do want to know what your solution is!" - No you don't, you are not in the slightest bit interested. How did I know that? You used the word "honestly" - You haven't got the foggiest notion of what that word means.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jul 16 - 07:37 PM

You see? Black and white. Teribus, would you like to define the whole history of the 20th century by its conflicts alone? Or does the humdrum, prosaic beat of everyday life, which actually occupies far more time than the conflicts, count for nothing? Well, at least you answered your own question. I thought for a second that you were presenting me with a real challenge, but then you went and spoiled your case with a fully-expected Islamophobic rant about the two organisations who are trying to run benighted territories whilst keeping Israel at bay. Yes they are nasty, yes they say horrid things about Jews, yes democracy is not in their souls, yes they have this bad habit of firing ramshackle rockets into Israel (we don't need to discuss comparative killing rates, do we...?). But they happen to be in charge and we do have a long history of propping up far worse people (your hero Maggie thought the WORLD of Pinochet!) So tell me. What you gonna do about them? Who would you put in their place? No, honestly, I really do want to know what your solution is!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Jul 16 - 07:13 PM

"Any hand wringing you do saying "all racism is deplorable" is mere lip service to try and avoid the public condemnation which you should rightly undergo." - says Raggy

Isn't that precisely what Labour's NEC has done? Now why don't those who were the cause of all those recommended "immediate and sustained actions" being made have to withstand - "the public condemnation which they should rightly undergo."

We have yet another baseless accusation thrown out by "Shaw, the honest, open and truthful" - "This bloody cabal of racist minnows who post here, the unholy trinity of Keith, bobad and Teribus, can't bear to hear facts about the people they purport to despise.".

"This bloody cabal"?? What bloodshed Shaw?

"Racist"?? - Give me an example of anything racist that I have posted - How silly of me, I forgot that's never going to happen is it?

Now then who is it that I purport to despise and what "facts" about them can I not bear to hear?

Hamas? Tell me about their popular support and the mandate that was so freely given by the population of Gaza. When did they last hold an election? What did they do to their political opponents? Why did they use cement and building materials delivered into Gaza to build tunnels and underground bunkers for themselves and built nothing for the general population? Why have they indiscriminately fired over 15,000 rockets, mortars and missiles into Israel? If they did not exist then there would be no problem with Israel (Ask the Jordanians and the Egyptians if Israel keeps their side of any agreement they sign - the answer would be, "Yes they do.")

Hamas and the PA have received more in aid than was given to the whole of Europe under the Marshall Plan at the end of the Second World War - what have they done with it? - S.F.A.

Dress them up anyway you like Shaw, Hamas and Hezbollah are "men-of-the-gun" who are state sponsored by the likes of Iran, and formerly Iraq and Syria to cause trouble with Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jul 16 - 05:52 PM

Cheers, Raggytash. My sentiments exactly. And I defy anyone reading this thread to extrapolate from anything I've said that I support Hezbollah. This bloody cabal of racist minnows who post here, the unholy trinity of Keith, bobad and Teribus, can't bear to hear facts about the people they purport to despise. It just has to be so black and white. They'll tell you that they hate Hamas and Hezbollah for what they are and for what they say. If that were all, so would I. But Lebanon and Gaza get on with living, in spite of the Israeli regime's depredations, and those detestable organisations keep the show on the road for millions of people. Putin keeps his show on the road and Dubya kept his show on the road. But I daren't state these incontrovertible facts in case Keith claims that I "support" these pillocks. The people he supports, the Israeli regime, are just about the biggest pillocks on the planet, but hey ho, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jul 16 - 05:08 PM

Misremembering my arse. You don't have to remember anything. It's here in black and white. You didn't bother checking the accuracy of your quote before typing. You did the same thing with Wheatcroft. When you are as up-front and controversial as you are, people are going to check up on you. You would do well to remember that instead of taking people for fools. Still, you acknowledged an error. That's progress.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 30 Jul 16 - 05:01 PM

From the professor "All racism is deplorable, but I am not aware of any government racists"

No you don't recognise them because of your own overt racism. You have been given a clear example in your friend Boris Johnson. Your own overt racism by seeking to make excuses for him has amply demonstrated your racsim.

If you do not recognise the term "piccannines" as being racist (which even Bobad accepts) you are an abject racist.

Any hand wringing you do saying "all racism is deplorable" is mere lip service to try and avoid the public condemnation which you should rightly undergo.

And the man claims to be a Christian.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jul 16 - 01:44 PM

BBC on Hezbollah,
In 2011, the group and its allies forced the collapse of the unity government led by Saad Hariri, a Saudi-backed Sunni, with Hezbollah warning that it would not stand by as four of its members were accused of involvement in the 2005 assassination of Mr Hariri's father Rafik.
Hezbollah and its allies have continued to be part of subsequent governments, where they wield considerable influence.
As the war in Syria escalated, thousands of Hezbollah militants went to fight for Syrian President Bashar al-Assad, proving decisive in helping pro-government forces recover ground lost to rebels, particularly along the Lebanese border.
Hezbollah's involvement in Syria, however, has sharpened sectarian tensions in Lebanon, where the group has been targeted in a series of bombings by Sunni militants.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jul 16 - 01:25 PM

Correction.
Lebanese SUNNIS most certainly do not approve of Hezbollah or what they do in Lebanon.
Sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jul 16 - 01:20 PM

Steve,
I apologise for misremembering your assertion.
You did not say they were loved.
Sorry.


I made factual statements about the status of Hezbollah

No. You made unsupported assertions.
You claimed that "millions of people in Lebanon and Gaza approve of Hamas and Hezbollah, not just for resisting Israel but also because they help to run the country, rather well in the case of Lebanon."

How do you know this?
What happens to anyone who criticises them?
There is no freedom of speech and no free press.
Lebanese Shia most certainly do not approve of Hezbollah or what they do in Lebanon.

and have never, ever stated that I support them,

No, but the above assertions were supportive of them.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jul 16 - 01:04 PM

jim,
You've broken your neck trying to prove antisemitism, then misogyny, then bullying - nothing.

No. I have just repeated accusations from within Labour.
The Mayor of London accused Corbyn of refusing to address the issue of antisemitism within Labour.
The ex leader of Scottish Labour was more specific, saying it was Momentum problem.
The enquiries found such an issue with antisemitism that numerous recommendations, yet to be enacted, were found to be required.

Both of you denied that Shah had said anything antisemitic, proving yourself incapable of recognising antisemitism when presented with it.
The Party did recognise it, and suspended her until she apologised.
Having apologised and been reinstated, without having to she went on BBC to admit her statements WERE antisemitic and resulted from her ignorance.
Got that. You were wrong to deny her statements were antisemitic.
She was helped out of her ignorance by members of the Jewish community.
What lovely, forgiving people they must be.

while refusing to comment of Government racists.

All racism is deplorable, but I am not aware of any government racists.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jul 16 - 10:40 AM

I made factual statements about the status of Hezbollah and have never, ever stated that I support them, so take your twisted assertion and stick it where the sun don't shine, will you please. You are very good at at telling people what they think, aren't you. You told us authoritatively that Geoffrey Wheatcroft thought Taylor and Clark were both fraudulent, only it turned out he didn't think it, didn't it? And I did not say "loved" by millions, did I? And where have I challenged any quote from LabourList? I am simply helping you to understand that LabourList is not the same thing as Labour any more than the Daily Mail is the same thing as the Tory Party. And neither Jim nor I has been "denying the facts." We've been denying your twisted, agenda-laden opinions all right, but not one single fact have we denied. Of course, unlike you, we have chosen not to extrapolate to extra "facts" that can't be justified from the information available, and we apply the correct definition of antisemitism, the only one that is of any use, that antisemitism is attacking Jews because they are Jews, in interpreting what's been going on. Not criticising the behaviour of the Israeli regime, not being out of accord with Zionism, not even unwise, flippant remarks about relocating Israel to the US. Straighten your head out, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jul 16 - 09:59 AM

"No accusations came from me."
You've broken your neck trying to prove antisemitism, then misogyny, then bullying - nothing.
You've been told that any party would take such an accusation seriously (except the Tories, who have appointed a racist to one of the most sensitive jobs regarding relations with other races and cultures) - they investigated the accusation, as they soiuld and found no major problem - yet the pair of you cling on by the fingernails, while refusing to comment of Government racists.
It would have been irresponsible for the Party to ignore the accusation - doesn't bother the government though.
You are a pair pf hypocrites who are more concerned with making political capital and totally disinterested in racism - as you have made clear in the past.
No problem - unless you can provide examples and numbers - which, of course, you won't
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jul 16 - 09:19 AM

Jim,
"No. The Labour Party did that to itself."
Repeat this as often as you want Keith - they didn't and investigations proved that the accusations were unfounded.

No accusations came from me.
I only quoted senior Labour people saying that antisemitism among the membership was a serious issue for the party.
So serious that enquiries were set up that made numerous recommendations about how the problem should be dealt with.

Steve,
You were quoting it as a Labour source, which it is not.

Then why can you not identify any quote that you challenge?
Because you can't!
You are just trying to undermine my arguments without actually being able to challenge anything I have said!

In the last week in this thread Keith has accused me of being a Hezbollah supporter

You did support them by saying they ruled well in Lebanon and were loved by millions.

the only people on the planet still burbling on about the Great Labour Antisemitism Disgrace. Naturally, they'll be doing it by adhering to their personal cock-eyed definition of antisemitism.

That would be you two.
We have said nothing new about it for weeks.
You two just keep denying the facts so that we have to remind you of them.
All the claims about Labour antisemitism came from within Labour.
I just quoted them here.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jul 16 - 08:55 AM

Give it another week or two, Jim, and Teribus 'n' Keith will be the only people on the planet still burbling on about the Great Labour Antisemitism Disgrace. Naturally, they'll be doing it by adhering to their personal cock-eyed definition of antisemitism.

Bobad, if you accuse Hamas of killing all those children in Gaza during the last Israeli attack, as you do, then you are indeed an Islamophobe. If you refuse to accept that the killer is the man with the gun or the shells, preferring to call the people with whom you are ideologically at odds murderers, and those people are Islamic, you are an Islsmophobe. When you can never bring yourself to say a single positive thing about non-Jews in the Middle East, you are well on the way. You brand yourself an Islamophobe by the way you behave. And please don't think I don't already know the crass stupidity of the response that's coming. I'll call you a big baby now before you even say it.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jul 16 - 08:40 AM

"Teribus, if you publicly accuse named people of antisemitism you'd better have chapter and verse. "
Don't ask for the moon Steve - if this pair of clowns had any evidence of Antisemitism they'd have produced it a long time ago. - they both live in their own heads.
Wanna put any money down on whether they'll ever get round to discussing Tory racism - probably thread drift by Keith's reckoning
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Jul 16 - 08:22 AM

"Teribus, in the Brexit thread you categorised me as a physical bully after I related how we Catholic primary school kids were allowed to behave towards the Protestant school kids up the road. You forgot that I'm now 65 and might just have moved on."

"Might just have"??? - In general Shaw Leopards do not change their spots - a person's character, especially if it is bad, will not change, even if they pretend it has.

So a point supposedly addressed to Keith A is included in a paragraph that does not mention him by name and begins - "By the way, I hope Teribus is reading this." - It is not me that needs to learn how to read Shaw, it is you that needs to learn how to write........😂😂😂

So Naz Shah was a liar then Shaw? Or is she the only one of some 50 Labour Party Members with the integrity to admit that she was in error through ignorance that was entirely her own?

You are the one that knows nothing related to the matter, the Labour Party's NEC have made sure of that, charges of a "Whitewash" and a "Cover-up" still stand - so much for your claimed honesty, openness and transparency of the Labour Party.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 30 Jul 16 - 08:14 AM

Bobad has suggested that I support the "send 'em back to Auschwitz" brigade. That's enough misrepresentations for now.

Just like you calling me an "Islamophobe"........sauce for the goose, eh Shaw.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jul 16 - 07:07 AM

Teribus, if you publicly accuse named people of antisemitism you'd better have chapter and verse. The reason why no names were named harks back to that good ol' tenet of the rule of law, that you are innocent until PROVEN guilty. Neither the Labour Party nor anyone else is entitled to bandy names around unless (a) they are absolutely certain that they have the accused persons bang to rights, or (b) they have a bloody good lawyer. The fact that names were not named could be taken to imply that definite conclusions about the intentionsw of the accused were not possible. Naturally, you'll put your own interpretation on it according to your personal agenda, won't you. Too bad. The thing is, you don't know.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jul 16 - 06:55 AM

Please learn to read, Teribus. The accusation about Boris was levelled at Keith, not you. Thanks anyway for yet another example of misrepresentation. 😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jul 16 - 06:52 AM

Nah then, Teribus, in the Brexit thread you categorised me as a physical bully after I related how we Catholic primary school kids were allowed to behave towards the Protestant school kids up the road. You forgot that I'm now 65 and might just have moved on. 😂 In the last week in this thread Keith has accused me of being a Hezbollah supporter and has repeatedly asserted that I've denied Labour's antisemitism issue (even though I've discussed it here for months until I'm blue in the face and have denied nothing). Bobad has suggested that I support the "send 'em back to Auschwitz" brigade. That's enough misrepresentations for now. Life' s too bloody short.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jul 16 - 06:51 AM

"Jom's opinion was that no problem ever existed."
Not mine, me little goose-stepper
The enquiriees that were held exonerated the party
The tort party doesn't have the bottle to look into their own racist and sectarian problems and you lot do't even dare to go there
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Jul 16 - 06:39 AM

From Steve Shaw:

"We have both said that, in our opinion, Labour has addressed the issue appropriately. We have also pointed out your hypocrisy in dwelling obsessively on a matter that Labour has dealt with openly and honestly while the people you support, Farage and Johnson, get away without comment from you (except that you defended Johnson's calling black babies piccaninnies, of course 😂) with their scurrilous, xenophobic, racist agenda, replete with lies. I'd say that you have misrepresented us both. Labour addressed the matter seriously and both Jim and I, unlike you, have comprehensively given you our opinions in detail and have denied nothing"

1: Jom's opinion was that no problem ever existed. That wasn't true was it? Seeing as how we happen to have caught you in your "open & honest" mode.

2: Labour hasn't dealt with it "openly and honestly" though has it? No names named, no publication of the report that both you and Jom insists declares the Labour Party to be as pure as the driven snow. Yet the person they tasked with the investigation has detailed recommendations requiring immediate and sustained action by the NEC.

3: I'd love to see an example of this alleged support for Boris Johnson and his ill-advised, sarcastic and reprehensible remarks that I am supposed to have given. But like all your baseless allegations no such example will be forthcoming - that is the true reflection of how honest and open minded you are Shaw. (Note: No examples of - the lying and dissembling that we too often see here. I seem to spend half my time objecting to the deliberate and serious misrepresentations made by you, Teribus")

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Jul 16 - 06:26 AM

BDS - "Boycott, Divestment, Sanctions (BDS) is a Palestinian-led movement for freedom, justice and equality. BDS upholds the simple principle that Palestinians are entitled to the same rights as the rest of humanity."

Of course Palestinians are entitled to the same rights as the rest of humanity. A simple statement from their leaders that unequivocally grants those same rights to the people of Israel would go a long way towards them achieving their goal.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jul 16 - 06:24 AM

Simple, Keith. LabourList is not Labour. You were quoting it as a Labour source, which it is not. The Daily Telegraph is a damn sight more loyal to the Tories than LabourList is to Labour, but we wouldn't call it the Tory house journal, would we, unless we were being sarcastic.

By the way, I hope Teribus is reading this. Neither Jim nor I have denied that Labour had an issue that needed addressing. Serious? The most serious aspect of the whole thing, in which a tiny handful out of half a million members made some unwise remarks, was the right-wing media firestorm that was whipped up, aided by the conspirators in the party who are trying to unseat Corbyn (unlike you, the conspirators have moved on to other gambits such as misogyny, threats of violence and bullying. When all that fails only baby-eating will be left). We have both said that, in our opinion, Labour has addressed the issue appropriately. We have also pointed out your hypocrisy in dwelling obsessively on a matter that Labour has dealt with openly and honestly while the people you support, Farage and Johnson, get away without comment from you (except that you defended Johnson's calling black babies piccaninnies, of course 😂) with their scurrilous, xenophobic, racist agenda, replete with lies. I'd say that you have misrepresented us both. Labour addressed the matter seriously and both Jim and I, unlike you, have comprehensively given you our opinions in detail and have denied nothing. All YOU do is quote from cherrypicked sources that fit your anti-Labour one-track mind agenda, well, at least when you are taking a break from defending a terrorist regime, that is. Never an opinion of your own.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jul 16 - 06:06 AM

"No. The Labour Party did that to itself."
Repeat this as often as you want Keith - they didn't and investigations proved that the accusations were unfounded.
It was taken as a serious issue before the investigations - no basis in reality.
BDS
"Only because you and Steve kept your denials going,"
See above - when a couple of right-wing twerps continue to insist something that has been proved to be false, what do you expect.
I suppose the two of you are refusing to comment on the proven institutional racism of the Tory party on the grounds that it might incriminate you.
Never expected anything else from you 'champions of democracy and fair play'
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Jul 16 - 05:31 AM

The rest of the world is indeed "moving on", moving on to create an "alternative" opposition by the looks of it if Corbyn wins in September. Looks like yer man is overseeing the destruction of the Labour Party in the UK. Main reason for that being that the ideologues in the Party have elected as leader a man who is totally incapable of being a "leader".

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jul 16 - 05:09 AM

Steve,
If you really think that the general tenor of LabourList is "far left"

I don't and would never even suggest such nonsense.
It is of interest that you subscribe to the daily e mail though.
Now, why did you make an issue of Labour List in this discussion?
What was your point?

Jim,
has valiantly continued to attempt to smear the Labour Party as Antisemitic,

No. The Labour Party did that to itself.
I merely quoted those senior Lasbour figures making their accusations
You and Steve denied it was a serious issue and were proved wrong.

long after the rest of the world has moved on

Only because you and Steve kept your denials going, long after there was anything new to say about it.
It is you two that have kept it alive!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Jul 16 - 04:11 AM

"The Labour Party were accused, they responded to those accusations - no evidence was found." - Sez Jom the Infallable

So let's review what subsequently happened shall we:

1: Because no evidence was found by the person asked to carry out this investigation came up with eleven recommendations that required immediate and sustained action - does that strike anyone as being a sign that all was well?

2: Because no evidence was found the person asked to investigate anti-Semitism within the OULC gave a further seven recommendations related to further issues to a separate investigation being conducted by Shami Chakrabarti - does that strike anyone as being a sign that all was well?

3: Labour's National Executive Council for reasons best known to themselves decided not to publish Baroness Royall's Report that according to Jom proves conclusively that no evidence of anti-Semitism was found - rather strange that don't you think? If the report gives the OULC a clean bill of health why not publish it? - Reeks of "cover-up".

4: Naz Shah must be a self-confessed liar - but I don't think she is.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jul 16 - 02:38 AM

""deliberate and serious misrepresentations""
Where to start?
All this aside, this little band of heroes - a blustering bully, a vitriol-hurling troll and a Uriah Heep wannabe, has valiantly continued to attempt to smear the Labour Party as Antisemitic, long after the rest of the world has moved on - as with the previous campaign, they have failed miserably.
The Labour Party were accused, they responded to those accusations - no evidence was found.
Back in May the Conservative Party was accused of Islamophobia - they immediately sprang into action ans did...... nothing; no enquiry, no response... nothing after three and a half months.
Which twin wes the Toni, as the old ad used to say.
After Theresa the Teaser's Night of the Long Knives, Britain got itself a semi-articulate racist foreign secretary who still refers blacks as "piccanninnis" with "watermelon smiles".
The newly incumbent foreign secretary hit the headlines not too long ago by refering to the President of the U.S's "Kenyan background", harking back to the 2008 dirty tricks campaign which alleged that Obama was really a Kenyan born dual citizen and so, illegible for office.
All of which puts quibbling about the position of an in-house magazine where it belongs - a diversion.
And now comes a short period of talking-down to by our resident mental midget.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Jul 16 - 01:49 AM

Steve Shaw - 29 Jul 16 - 04:10 PM

"I never object to free speech. I object to the lying and dissembling that we too often see here. I seem to spend half my time objecting to the deliberate and serious misrepresentations made by you, Teribus"

IF that be the case Shaw give us an example of such "deliberate and serious misrepresentations"

Now then Folks my bet is that he won't - "Free Speech" Shaw is great at making up and throwing baseless accusations about - but when challenged can never back them up - this one will prove to be no exception.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jul 16 - 07:43 PM

Nope. It just that you're not worth it. And stop copying my 😂😂😂. Try to come up with something original. Oh sorry, I forgot. You only copy stuff from extremist right-wing websites. One day, when you finally get out of your teenie mindset, you might just start thinking for yourself. Few signs so far. It's a hard life here with the big boys, innit? Trouble is, you got off to such a bad start with your weasly, cheating double identity. As I said, grow up. In the meantime, just bugger off until you find something sensible to contribute, why don't you.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 29 Jul 16 - 06:39 PM

Is that all the invective you can come up with? You can do better than that, you're slipping. 😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jul 16 - 06:34 PM

QED? You never demonstrate anything other than what a two-faced, two-timing, cheating, racist, antisemitic, Islamophobic, immature coward you are. Apart from that, you're fine. 😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 29 Jul 16 - 06:22 PM

Grow up. = QED

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Jul 16 - 05:54 PM

POINT THREE.

However, given that Baroness Royall is a well educated and very experienced Politician I doubt very much that she was careless in her choice of vocabulary.

I would suggest that when she referred to "the student body" she implied "the student body" she referred to the students of Oxford University.

Of course if someone hasn't achieved a university level education they may not realise or even be aware of this.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Jul 16 - 05:42 PM

POINT TWO

I had thought professor, that as you claim to have been a teacher, you may have achieved a degree level education. Perhaps I was mistaken and you were one of the teachers (some of which I encountered) who merely attained a Cert Ed.

Anyone who went to a university would recognise the term "the student body" as referring to the students who attended a particular college.

Teribus pontificates that Baroness Royall did not canvass the students of Oxford (how he reached that opinion I do not know) but I will acknowledge the point as being reasonable, however I very much doubt if she canvassed the members of the Oxford University Labour Club.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Jul 16 - 05:30 PM

POINT ONE.

From the professor " Rag, Yes, she should have said, "The Oxfoand not just "the student body."rd University Labour Club student body"

Did I really type that ? If so my humble apologies. I know I make mistakes on occasion (normally after a pint ... or three)

But perchance it was an attempt at a selective cut and paste (again) or perhaps it was a downright attempt to alter my post.

If you can't be bothered to even cut and paste correctly why on earth should anyone pay the slightest heed to the things you type. Why do you even bother.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jul 16 - 05:06 PM

Grow up.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 29 Jul 16 - 04:58 PM

serious misrepresentations made by you, Teribus, bobad and akenaton.

serious misrepresentations = trolling = challenging my bullshit = boo hoo.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jul 16 - 04:13 PM

Content-free side-swipe from Teribus. Maybe he's had a long day, poor dear. 😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jul 16 - 04:10 PM

I never object to free speech. I object to the lying and dissembling that we too often see here. I seem to spend half my time objecting to the deliberate and serious misrepresentations made by you, Teribus, bobad and akenaton. As for quotes that can't be challenged, well, Keith, we know that in nearly every post you make you appeal to some authority or other, so you would say that, wouldn't you?   As for me, I don't care who says stuff. To me, nothing is beyond challenge.

Good example of your misrepresentation: "You are evidence that it is relevant to people like you on the far left of the movement." If you really think that the general tenor of LabourList is "far left" then you really are in cloud cuckoo land. In fact, I take very little notice of it.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jul 16 - 04:05 PM

Raggytash - 29 Jul 16 - 11:14 AM

"Teribus, I know I shouldn't have expected you to know this but in University circles the term, "the student body" refers to students at a university"

Now was Baroness Royall delivering her report to those in "university Circles" or was she asked to conduct her Inquiry by those in "University Circles" Raggy? No she was asked to investigate anti-Semitism within the Oxford University Labour Party and that is exactly what she did, she did not go about generally canvasing the students in Oxford.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jul 16 - 04:00 PM

Steve Shaw - 29 Jul 16 - 09:16 AM

"Stop acting like a baby, bobad. Unless you're about fourteen you should be realising by now that the world is never black and white."

It damn well seems to be when it suits your purposes Shaw.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jul 16 - 03:03 PM

Correction. Sorry.

Rag,
Yes, she should have said, "The Oxford University Labour Club student body" and not just "the student body."
She probably felt it unnecessary because everyone knew which student body she meant because everyone except you understood that she was specifically and only enquiring into the OULC and not the whole university student body of many thousands with no connection whatsoever to the Labour Party!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jul 16 - 02:59 PM

Rag,
Yes, she should have said, "The Oxfoand not just "the student body."rd University Labour Club student body"
She probably felt it unnecessary because everyone knew which student body she meant because everyone except you understood that she was specifically and only enquiring into the OULC and not the whole university student body of many thousands with no connection whatsoever to the Labour Party!

Steve, I do not use it as a Labour mouthpiece, but it has provided me with many quotes of senior figures that can not be challenged.

It is a bunch of people who purport to be broadly centre-left who support the concept of a centre-left party in power
No it is not. Its readers and contributors come from across the labour movement.
It fulfils the role of a house journal for the labour movement. You are evidence that it is relevant to people like you on the far left of the movement.

But tell us Steve, what quote from Labour List do you object to and why?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jul 16 - 11:37 AM

Keith, I understand fully how you need LabourList by your side as a commentary on all that's wrong with Labour (they don't pull their punches, do they, so quite handy for you), but it is most decidedly NOT a house journal. It is a bunch of people who purport to be broadly centre-left who support the concept of a centre-left party in power (there is only one possibility, of course). As for "it provides that role and there is no other," that logic is laughable. Who says there has to be one? As for my not knowing it wasn't Labour, well as I receive the daily newsletter that would be rather odd. 😂😂😂 Anyway, the point is that it is is not as close to Labour as you want it to be, and using it in any way as a Labour mouthpiece is simply out of order. As for liars around here, there are only two, and you are both of 'em. 😅

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Jul 16 - 11:14 AM

Teribus, I know I shouldn't have expected you to know this but in University circles the term, "the student body" refers to students at a university. Nothing more, nothing less. Not to members of specific group or club.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jul 16 - 10:05 AM

steve,
LabourList is not the house journal because it is not in the house.

It is independent but it is in practice the house journal.
It provides that role and there is no other.
All blogs and posts come from within the movement.

Why don't you just admit that you thought it was a Labour Party publication until I told you it wasn't?

Because it would not be true.
Two months ago I had not even heard of it, and I would not quote an unknown site without clicking the "about" button.
Your first response actually suggests that you did not know it was independent Steve.


The relationship with Labour is no more than tangential.

Completely false.
Read the page you quoted. It makes a liar of you.
Read from the site itself.
That does too.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jul 16 - 09:25 AM

LabourList is not the house journal because it is not in the house. The party has no say as to the content of its blogs. Why don't you just admit that you thought it was a Labour Party publication until I told you it wasn't? The relationship with Labour is no more than tangential. I'm amazed that you're so keen to quote Ed Balls.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jul 16 - 09:23 AM

"it's what some people do when they are caught with egg on their face"
Yeah sure - you and teribus strut around like a pair of jackbooted thugs hurling your insults - neither of you have the bottle to defend your statements and you howl like whipped dogs when people don't take you seriously.
Behave like adults and maybe, just maybe, you'll be treated like one
Try this old one for a start - do you believe, along with the Israeli justice minister, that any criticism of Israel is Antisemitic
If you don't, then on what grounds do you claim that people who have never attacked Jews or their religion can be described as Antisemites
Your starter for ten - take your time
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jul 16 - 09:16 AM

Stop acting like a baby, bobad. Unless you're about fourteen you should be realising by now that the world is never black and white. I don't approve of anybody's "send them back to Auschwitz" sentiment and no-one here has the slightest cause to level that at either me or Jim. But that doesn't mean I have to take the hysterical ranting of a near-lunatic as my source. And if you can't see that Teribus is doing nothing more than pointlessly fannying around with words, then if anyone around here has egg on their face, it's you. In fact, egg on both your faces. Cor, bet you miss being the anonymous sniper, don't you.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 29 Jul 16 - 08:21 AM

"Jom?"
If people insist on bringing children onto this forum, would they please try to control them?
I told you - if you want to be treated like an adult, behave like one.
Jim Carroll

Lol.....this is called deflection......it's what some people do when they are caught with egg on their face.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jul 16 - 07:57 AM

Rag,
So provide a link to your quote "although the report's author has said the student body has a "clear cultural problem" around the topic"

Just google the text.
http://labourlist.org/2016/05/royall-clears-oxford-university-labour-club-of-institutional-anti-semitism/

It is not "the house journal.It publishes or links to many items that make extremely uncomfortable reading for Labour.
Yes it is. House journals do.
Where else can you go to read reports of NEC meetings?
The 2009 "spat" was brief and instantly forgotten, as is made quite clear by the rest of the page that Steve cherrypicked his sentence from!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LabourList
"On 29 January 2010, Labour cabinet minister Ed Balls MP said in interview that "LabourList is flourishing and agenda setting, and that's very powerful. It's brought a huge change over the last year. Two years ago, we weren't on the field when it came to new media. Now, I think we're ahead of the Tories in new communications. Our people are younger, they're in the real world, they're young parents or they're students, so we ought to be ahead of them in new communications. LabourList and Left Foot Forward are really, really good. A year on from Labour people really grasping this stuff, the reality is now reflected in what's going on." "

"The site features breaking news, analysis, opinion, policy and ideas from a broad cross-section of the Labour movement from activists to cabinet ministers, in addition to regular editorials and posts by the sitting editor and a core group of columnists, which include Paul Richards and Anthony Painter. Government ministers who have blogged on the site include Peter Mandelson, Ed Balls, David Miliband, Ed Miliband and Douglas Alexander."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jul 16 - 07:44 AM

"Jom?"
If people insist on bringing children onto this forum, would they please try to control them?
I told you - if you want to be treated like an adult, behave like one.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 29 Jul 16 - 07:41 AM

No surprise that Shaw and Carroll mock the Israeli ambassador's letter to Sinn Fein. I'm sure they also approve of Sinn Fein's "send them back to Auschwitz" sentiment.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jul 16 - 07:20 AM

Jim Carroll - 29 Jul 16 - 05:03 AM

"Noe nof those recommendations refer to serious anti Semitism"

None of them had to did they Jom?

What was Baroness Royall's remit from Labour's NEC? She mentions it in her opening sentence of her Report:

"I was asked by the National Executive Committee of the Labour Party to examine the allegations of antisemitism that arose surrounding Oxford University Labour Club (OULC) after the resignation of a former co-Chair."

Where in that does it say that she was asked to look into allegations of "serious" anti-Semitism Jom? "Serious" anti-Semitism, "Semi-Serious" anti-Semitism, "Mild" anti-Semitism, how many differentiating categories apply in your rather warped mind Jom? Anti-Semitism is anti-Semitism and THAT was what Baroness Royall was asked to look into.

So what else do you think, after having been given that remit, she would refer to in her Report? Having been specifically requested to examine allegations of anti-Semitism you would think that she would not have to pre-fix everything with the word anti-Semitism - would you?

Anti-Semitism is however specifically mentioned in five out of the seven issues she recommends Shami Chakrabarti to look into.

Of the eleven recommendations she urges immediate and sustained action on specifically mentions anti-Semitism are seen in six of them, others relate to racism (Which includes anti-Semitism), criminal activity and equality.

Labour's NEC have decided that the Report will not be made available to the public, they have decided that the Full Report will not be published - care to suggest why, if there is nothing to hide? Just because no names have been named under these circumstances does not mean there was no problem - the whole things absolutely reeks of cover-up.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jul 16 - 07:17 AM

It certainly isn't worth taking that ridiculous link any further. Wouldn't mind betting that even Keith's squirming. 😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jul 16 - 07:11 AM

"Hey Carroll, are you a supporter of Sinn Fein?
Hey Bobad - are you a supporter of the British national Party?
Your policy towards the Jewish people are not unsimilar
Only fascists and the Israeli regime (supported by you), blame the Jewish People for massacres and human rights atrocities.
As I told your brutish mate, if you can't enter into these discussions with a degree of respect, sling your hook.
It is not particularly impressive and extremely cowardly to thurl insults anonymously from behind a keyboard - I trust your family is very proud of having a hero like you in their midst.
These arguments really do drag them up from the lower depths, don't they.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jul 16 - 07:08 AM

"Hey Carroll, are you a supporter of Sinn Fein?"

Don't tell him, Pike! 😂😂😂

The hysterical stuff in your link is so ridiculous as to be comical. I must say, your judgement isn't up to much. You gave us a link yesterday that was at least worthy of a read but today you give us a rant worthy of Basil Fawlty at his finest. Try to think about your reputation is my advice. Not that it's worth trying to rescue.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jul 16 - 06:59 AM

The LabourList spat, 2009, from wiki. Was in a rush earlier on. My car wasn't working. It is now.

On 11 April 2009, it was reported by the Daily Telegraph that Gordon Brown's special adviser, Damian McBride had sent a series of emails to former LabourList editor, Derek Draper, discussing plans to set up a blog which would be used to post false rumours about the private lives of senior members of the Conservative Party.

McBride resigned later the same day, and 10 Downing Street issued an apology for the "juvenile and inappropriate" emails. Gordon Brown later sent personal letters to those who had been mentioned in the emails, expressing his regret over the incident.

In the wake of the incident, Labour sought to distance itself from LabourList owing to its connection with Draper. Draper also came under pressure to resign his post as editor of LabourList. Peter Oborne criticised Draper's failure to resign and his continued association with the site as "morally revolting".

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 29 Jul 16 - 06:54 AM

Hey Carroll, are you a supporter of Sinn Fein? Just wondering because I came across this item: Israel's Reply To Provisional Sinn Fein sbtitled "Irish Nationalist Antisemitism Raises Its Ugly Head, Yet Again!" and recognized you and your spew in their neo Nazi like ideology.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jul 16 - 06:45 AM

Raggy, the ONLY Student body subject Baroness Royall's Inquiry was the Oxford University Labour Party.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jul 16 - 05:03 AM

""eleven recommendations for immediate and sustained action"
Noe nof those recommendations refer to serious anti semitism, they are no more than a check on the use of language in an atmosphere which has been created by a situation where the lines between what it and is not antisemitic has been blurred by a deliberate campaign to make All criticism of Israel an attack on Jews - read Bobad's vitriol, if you want a perfect example of this.
Nobody has been named, nobody has been disciplined - even the right-wing press have not bothered to pursue this matter further.
If the there had been the slightest hint of a serious problem, right wing rags would have jumped in with both feet screaming "Labour Jew haters" - we leave that to the three right wingers here.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jul 16 - 04:45 AM

Look it up, Keith. They fell out over a spat in 2009 when Gordon Brown was screwing up. The idiot Damien Barber was also involved. It is not "the house journal." It publishes or links to many items that make extremely uncomfortable reading for Labour.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Jul 16 - 04:45 AM

So provide a link to your quote "although the report's author has said the student body has a "clear cultural problem" around the topic"

Simple enough, even for you.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jul 16 - 04:41 AM

And actually bobad's "new antisemitism" link, which is to a wiki entry, makes quite an interesting read. It's tempting to do that evangelist/Keith thing and pick out the bits that suit, but that isn't me. It's a long read which, more or less neutrally, assesses both sides of the argument. In one place the point is made that the ardent supporters of the broader definition of antisemitism are (with an irony that goes above their heads - my observation) actually antisemitic themselves, as Jim states. As for me, I'll stick with my tenet that antisemitism can only be that if it is an attack on Jews because they are Jews. It's perfectly possible to look at any attack on Israel/the Jewish state/the Israeli regime, as well as attacks on Jews as an ethnic or religious group, including concepts such as the apartheid state and comparisons with Nazism, through that lens. You've gotta be honest about it, that's all. You can say something that's bloody stupid and antisemitic, you can say something that's just bloody stupid, or you can make fair criticism. Most of the remarks I've seen attributed to members of the Labour Party that were allegedly antisemitic fell into the middle category in my view.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jul 16 - 04:41 AM

Steve,
You didn't know that Labour List wasn't Labour, did you, Keith? 😂 As a matter of fact, the party distanced itself from Labour List years ago. You would know about these things if you subscribed, as I do.

Yes I did know, but it is still basically the house journal.

😂 As a matter of fact, the party distanced itself from Labour List years ago.

Can you support your assertion for once Steve?

Rag,
Professor provide a link to the report you cited then we will be able to see for ourselves who the student body is.

Labour for some reason decided not to publish the report Rag, but the enquiry was into OULC not the entire OU!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jul 16 - 04:25 AM

Well I could watch you making a cup of tea then come up with eleven recommendations for immediate and sustained action that I think would improve your tea, but I wouldn't mind betting that your tea tastes pretty good already, bereft of serious problems. And that could be the last time today I say anything nice to you.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Jul 16 - 04:24 AM

I know that the paper was referring to the OULC which the report said does not have an institutional issue of anti-Semitism.

However the professor quoted a section that said "although the student body has a "clear cultural problem" around the topic"

Now when I and others went to University the student body referred to all the students at that University not merely a section of that student body.

Thus I would suggest that this statement therefore refers to Oxford University as a whole.

The professor is well known for his selective "cut an pastes" and anything he cites requires to be checked thoroughly.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jul 16 - 04:16 AM

Executive Summary

I was asked by the National Executive Committee of the Labour Party to examine the allegations of antisemitism that arose surrounding Oxford University Labour Club (OULC) after the resignation of a former co-Chair.

This was followed by a number of allegations of incidents of antisemitism against members of the Labour Party, including against one Member of Parliament and a member of the National Executive Committee.

I was also made aware that there was at least one case of serious false allegations of antisemitism which was reported to the police.

The context of the wider allegations means that I had to consider the matters of Oxford University Labour Club in that broader landscape. My recommendations will have a positive impact, not only on OULC, but on Labour clubs and the Labour Party more generally.

I do not believe that that there is institutional antisemitism within OULC. Difficulties however, face OULC which must be addressed to ensure a safe space for all Labour students to debate and campaign around the great ideas of our movement.

It is not possible to simply make recommendations about the OULC without considering how our Party itself responds to these events. I am therefore, today making recommendations about how Labour tackles antisemitism to minimise the chance of any repetition of incidents such as those described at OULC. I am making eleven recommendations for immediate and sustained action. In addition, I am advising the second, wider inquiry led by Shami Chakrabarti of a further seven issues which she may wish to consider.

So the Inquiry found that anti-Semitism was not institutionalised within the Party - that does not mean that there was no serious problem - otherwise why should there be "eleven recommendations for immediate and sustained action" - Take note of that IMMEDIATE and SUSTAINED ACTION - And you clowns say that there was no serious problem??? . Why should Baroness Royall feel that as a result of her Inquiry she should advise Shami Chakrabarti of "a further SEVEN ISSUES which she may wish to consider.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jul 16 - 03:40 AM

"Have you seen anyone about your obsessiveness, I hear they have medication for it now?"
The only obsessiveness here is from those who, after accusations of Antisemitism turning out to be a damp squib, continue to claim that The Labour Party is riddled with Anti-semites - notably, all supporters of Israeli terrorism.
They refuse to provide evidence of their claims in terms of actual examples, they refuse to acknowledge the fact that Antisemitism is basically a feature of right-wing politics and has proved to be so - six million times over within my lifespan.
None of them with acknowledge the links between these accusations and the move to boycott Israeli goods in protest to the mass murder that has taken place.
These people are men on a mission - obsessives, and their own spineless behaviour in branding everyone who disagrees with them is fully in line with Israeli claims that all criticism of Israeli policy is Antisemitic.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jul 16 - 03:32 AM

Baroness Royall OULC Inquiry

Try this one Shaw, certainly came up OK in the test, then compare the opening two paragraphs to those quoted in my earlier mail.

What is the matter Shaw? Can't you or Raggy actually search for information? Just enter the title of the link above into the search engine of your choice and you could have found it for yourself.

By the bye Shaw I did not have to make any "points" all I had to do was demonstrate quite clearly that Baroness Royall's Inquiry was into the Oxford University Labour Club and not the student body of Oxford University in general - something Raggy was rather lamely trying to claim. So merely pointing out yet another example of Raggy being factually in error.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Jul 16 - 03:20 AM

No reference to the wider student body in that attachment, a wider student body in toto which I suggested was the University of Oxford including the Bullingdon Club.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 28 Jul 16 - 06:28 PM

Have you seen anyone about your obsessiveness, I hear they have medication for it now?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jul 16 - 06:15 PM

Have another ten pints. It might just improve your posts.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 28 Jul 16 - 06:07 PM

[regressive] in my previous post was mis-placed, it should have read:

that's exactly the kind of rubbish that has been comprehensively debunked in this thread

On the left, black people are usually allowed to define what's racism; women can define sexism; Muslims are trusted to define Islamophobia. But when Jews call out something as antisemitic, [regressive] leftist non-Jews feel curiously entitled to tell Jews they're wrong, that they are exaggerating or lying or using it as a decoy tactic – and to then treat them to a long lecture on what anti-Jewish racism really is.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 28 Jul 16 - 06:03 PM

that's exactly the kind of rubbish that has been comprehensively debunked in this thread

On the [regressive] left, black people are usually allowed to define what's racism; women can define sexism; Muslims are trusted to define Islamophobia. But when Jews call out something as antisemitic, leftist non-Jews feel curiously entitled to tell Jews they're wrong, that they are exaggerating or lying or using it as a decoy tactic – and to then treat them to a long lecture on what anti-Jewish racism really is.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jul 16 - 05:50 PM

Yes, bobad, well that's exactly the kind of rubbish that has been comprehensively debunked in this thread. Do keep up. To adhere to that makes you a rabid antisemite and a racist (which, of course, you are, as well as being a two-timing cheat, a coward, a liar and, as your previous post reveals, illiterate to boot). You should heed the old saying. Better that everyone merely thinks you're an idiot than open your mouth and prove it.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 28 Jul 16 - 05:39 PM

It's about attacking Jews because they are Jews

See: The New Anti-Semitism

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jul 16 - 05:31 PM

Awful Teribus post. No points made. Link not clickable.

Really, Teribus, aka Johnny-come-lately in the thread, do take the time to read the bloody thing before wading in. Everything you've said so far has been done to death. You have no further angles to put on it, none at all. You are a Keith clone. Just try thinking for yourself for once instead of hitching your wagon to a thoroughly dead horse. Even you are not stupid enough to fail to understand that antisemitism has nothing to do with attacking a country that isn't even three-quarters Jewish. It's about attacking Jews because they are Jews. Do you accept that or not? If you do (and if you don't you're as big a clown as Keith), then try to agree without spin and without dishonesty that it is not possible to make blanket accusations against Labour. Names must be named. You won't do it, Keith won't do it, the enquiries won't do it. Why do you suppose names are NOT being named? Go on, have a guess. But don't forget the lawyers...

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jul 16 - 04:46 PM

All in the title of the Report Raggy:

Baroness Royall Inquiry Oxford University Labour Club

Opening two paragraphs of the Executive Summary:

Executive Summary

I was asked by the National Executive Committee of the Labour Party to examine the allegations of antisemitism that arose surrounding Oxford University Labour Club (OULC) after the resignation of a former co-Chair.

This was followed by a number of allegations of incidents of antisemitism against members of the Labour Party including against one Member of Parliament and a member of the National Executive Committee.

Any doubts Raggy.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Jul 16 - 04:21 PM

Professor provide a link to the report you cited then we will be able to see for ourselves who the student body is.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jul 16 - 04:02 PM

Lovely sentence. Translator's note, please? 😂😂😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 28 Jul 16 - 02:30 PM

Numbers - crimes- punishment ???

It is a crime of moral failure the punishment of which is shaming by public exposure as should be happening in the Labour party had they the courage to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jul 16 - 02:25 PM

You didn't know that Labour List wasn't Labour, did you, Keith? 😂 As a matter of fact, the party distanced itself from Labour List years ago. You would know about these things if you subscribed, as I do. Sussed again, Keith. As ever. And that's twice now that you've smeared Shami Chakrabarti by suggesting that she's fishing for a peerage. Completely unjustified, completely scurrilous, so typical of you. You have no reason to doubt her integrity whatsoever. In that regard she drops hot shit over the right-wing scumbags who you support. You really are the most disreputable smear-monger on this forum by a country mile. Disgraceful behaviour.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jul 16 - 01:52 PM

"The entire NEC recognises the seriousness of this issue.""
For Christs sake Keith - if a party is accused of antisemitism it is serious whether they are guilty or not - they investigated it itd found there was no signfnifficant proble
m - ir ceased to be serious
If you have any evidence that there was major problem, apart from your now deliberately misinterpreting a fact - present it.
"Geddit"
When yo stop stupidly lying and produce some numbers
Whjo has said there is a lrge number
Where have they said it
Why haven't they been reprimanded or expelled - or have they?
You are a very stupid, very dishonest man, you really are
Numbers - crimes- punishment ???
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jul 16 - 01:07 PM

Jim,
they(NEC) took the problem seriously, they examined it and fornfd no serious problem

NO.
They were quite clear that there was a serious issue with antisemitism within Labour.
"The NEC are appalled by recent cases of anti-Semitic abuse."

Which bit of that do you not understand Jim?

"Baroness Jan Royall, who has conducted two recent investigations into specific allegations of anti-Semitism,"

"Chakrabarti, who will be chairing a wider ranging inquiry looking at anti-Semitism within the Labour Party. "

"anti-semitism within the Labour Party. The entire NEC recognises the seriousness of this issue."
http://labourlist.org/2016/05/alice-perrys-nec-report-corbyn-fighting-prejudice-and-listening-to-voters-online/

Get it Jim?
The seriousness of anti-Semitism within the Labour Party is recognised by the entire NEC!
When will you recognise it?
You do not need numbers or names!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jul 16 - 12:27 PM

"Guardian on Chakrabarti,"
Then no information on how many or the nature of the "antisemitism" then?
"You have the evidence of the NEC's unequivocal statements, "
I most certainly have - they took the problem seriously, they examined it and fornfd no serious problem
If you disagree with this analysis you are free to correct ne, otherwise it stands.
It's a repeat case if the "hating Irish" - they "hated the British" but you refuse to say how they did.
You can repeat "serious" till they carry to the funny farm but, as with past arguments, it is just dishonest stonewalling.
You have obviously looked very hard for evidence thet there is a serious problem - you have found none, so there is none, so you fall back on the term "serious.
One more time If an accusation of Antisemirism is made against a major party, it doesn't matter if it is true or not - it will be treated AS A serious matter
If there has been a cover-up in ot exposing, disciplining or expelling those "large numbers" you are claiming, the Labour right and the Jewish member of the Party would be up in arms.
If there has been cover-up, the press would be having a field day
No serious Antisemitism has been found, none has been indicated either inside or outside the party.
Do not suggest that there has been some indicated in earlier reports - if it has, where is it?
You are one of the most clumsily crude, dishonest people I have ever come across.
Now - numbers - what forms did it take - who pas exposed, who was expelled - if no-one - why?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 28 Jul 16 - 12:16 PM

On the left, black people are usually allowed to define what's racism; women can define sexism; Muslims are trusted to define Islamophobia. But when Jews call out something as antisemitic, leftist non-Jews feel curiously entitled to tell Jews they're wrong, that they are exaggerating or lying or using it as a decoy tactic – and to then treat them to a long lecture on what anti-Jewish racism really is.

Whoever wrote that has to have have been reading Mudcat posts.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jul 16 - 11:55 AM

Raggytash - 28 Jul 16 - 09:11 AM

"The student body referred to is the student body of the University of Oxford"

Ehmmmm No Raggy the "Student body" being referred to is the "Oxford University Labour Club" aka (OULC) - That is after all the organisation that was under investigation - Investigation of the entire "Student Body" of Oxford University was never, ever within the remit of Baroness Royall's investigation into anti-Semitism within OULC.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jul 16 - 11:46 AM

Same Guardian writer on The Left and Jews.
It applies to own lefties rather well.

"On the left, black people are usually allowed to define what's racism; women can define sexism; Muslims are trusted to define Islamophobia. But when Jews call out something as antisemitic, leftist non-Jews feel curiously entitled to tell Jews they're wrong, that they are exaggerating or lying or using it as a decoy tactic – and to then treat them to a long lecture on what anti-Jewish racism really is.

The left would call it misogynist "mansplaining" if a man talked that way to a woman. They'd be mortified if they were caught doing that to LGBT people or Muslims. But to Jews, they feel no such restraint.

So this is my plea to the left. Treat us the same way you'd treat any other minority. No better and no worse. If opposition to racism means anything, it surely means that."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jul 16 - 11:38 AM

Guardian on Chakrabarti,
"The report is a short one, light on details of specific incidents and wary of passing judgment on long-running controversies. Rather, Chakrabarti's warmth and her frequent invocations of Labour values of universalism and human rights suggest an appeal to decency, calmness and common humanity.

In one respect though, the inquiry has produced detailed and clear recommendations. Much of the document deals with internal Labour party procedures and how they can deal with the antisemitism controversy more effectively. Some may well be aghast at her rejection of lifetime bans and her proposal for a moratorium on trawls through the past statements of Labour party members.

Whether her proposals for rule changes and codes of conducts will actually be adopted or have the desired impact is open to question.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jul 16 - 11:33 AM

Rag,

The student body referred to is the student body of the University of Oxford, thousands of students,

No silly. The report was about the OULC, not the OU!

Jim,
You have the evidence of the NEC's unequivocal statements, and those of many senior Labour figures, as PROOF that there was a serious issue with antisemitism in Labour.
The FACT that an enquiry was set up is further PROOF.

Labour and Chakrabarti have chosen not to name or expel any of those guilty of that antisemitism. They have been criticised for that.

However much you deny it, those FACTS remain.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Jul 16 - 09:11 AM

"This is what Labour List said about the other report, "Oxford University Labour Club (OULC) does not have an "institutional" issue of anti-Semitism, according to an internal Labour inquiry – although the report's author has said the student body has a "clear cultural problem" around the topic"

The student body referred to is the student body of the University of Oxford, thousands of students, amongst them the Bullingdon Club. Now I wonder if any of them are racists like your friend Boris.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jul 16 - 07:02 AM

"No Jim. Chakrabarti found lots"
Then you will be able to indicate any reference to numbers.
There have been no expulsions, no disciplining of individuals members and no reference that there is an extensive problem in the Labour Party - on the contrary, the only example of antisemitism in all this was by one named member who was attacking Israel for its murderous policy against the Palestinians; as Israel's defence for it's war crimes is to to claim that it is anti-semitic to criticise Israel about anything, this is understandable.
This is getting #like your "Irish hatred of the British" claim - you vehemently insisted that it wqas tehre yet refused to explain how it manifested itself.
Where are your examples of lots of anti-semiites in the Labour party - how many are there, who are they and what form does their anti-semitism take?
You refuse to respond to the numbers of claims of Israel's interference in British politics - so that one's sorted.
You refuse to respond to the exampl;es of Tory bullying and racism, which makes this simply a crusade against the Labour Party and a somewhat desperate one at that
THIS IS WHAT THIS IS REALLY ABOUT
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jul 16 - 06:03 AM

BBC 7 hours ago,
"This week's statement by Iain McNicol, general secretary of the Labour Party, was blunt: "There is no place for abuse of any kind in the party," he declared. "There is simply too much of it taking place and it needs to stop." "
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36898391

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jul 16 - 05:50 AM

Jim,
It has been found that there is no major problem of Antisemitism in the Labour Party - two enquires both came to the same conclusion.

No Jim. Chakrabarti found lots and made many recommendations to deal with it.

This is what Labour List said about the other report,
"Oxford University Labour Club (OULC) does not have an "institutional" issue of anti-Semitism, according to an internal Labour inquiry – although the report's author has said the student body has a "clear cultural problem" around the topic.

Following today's meeting of the Labour National Executive Committee, an executive summary of Baroness Royall's investigation into anti-Semitism within OULC was published, including her recommendations for the party to consider. However, there are criticisms already that the full report is not being published." (Wonder why!!!)

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jul 16 - 05:45 AM

Saying it does not make it so Rag.
You just resort to personal attack because you have nothing else.
It is as good as a white flag.

There is no racism from me, and never has been.
That is why you can not quote a single thing.
Or will you now?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jul 16 - 05:45 AM

It has been found that there is no major problem of Antisemitism in the Labour Party - two enquires both came to the same conclusion.
As it tuened out, the accusations were based on right wingers attempting to unseat Corbyn using Israeli supporters - Israel's involvement in all this is now obvious - Keith
]s two star witnesses who claimed there was a serious pronlem were both activists in the Israeli propaganda campaign.
It was treated seriously because it was a serious issue to be accused of such
Labour carried out a prompt enquiry when the accusations were made; when similar accusations were made about Islamophobia in the Tory Party, nothing was done - which of the two parties is most open in these matters (no prizes, I'm afraid).
Bobad, Teribus and Keith - speaks fro itself - three trolls sharing the same bridge.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Jul 16 - 05:08 AM

You can dissemble and deny as much as you want professor, it is all written down here for all to see. The fact remains that you are a racist.

End of story.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jul 16 - 05:01 AM

Page 1 of the Chakrabarti report,
"there is too much clear evidence (going back some years) of minority hateful or ignorant attitudes and
behaviours festering within a sometimes bitter incivility of discourse.
(Note, the subject is antisemitism, so that is what is being referred to )This has no place in a modern
democratic socialist party that puts equality, inclusion and human rights at its heart. Moreover, I have
heard too many Jewish voices express concern that antisemitism has not been taken seriously enough
in the Labour Party and broader Left for some years.
An occasionally toxic atmosphere is in danger of shutting down free speech within the Party rather
than facilitating it, and is understandably utilised by its opponents."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jul 16 - 04:52 AM

Rag,
What we have had reinforced is YOUR blatant RACISM.
Nasty lie. There is no racism from me, never has been and never will be.

Even Bobad acknowledges it was unacceptable in 1930's America, and here are you trying to justify it in 21st Century Britain.

So do I.
It was made very clear in that old Mudcat thread I linked to.
It was also made very clear that in UK it was becoming un-PC but had never been considered racist.

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: McGrath of Harlow - PM
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 06:57 PM

My dictionary says it's probably from a spanish woerd "pequeno", meaning a small child.
When I was growing up and where I was growing up, it was a word that might be used for any toddler.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jul 16 - 04:35 AM

Steve<

Labour List are not the Labour Party. It is an entirely independent organisation.

Yes it is. It is independent but it is written by Labour Party people for Labour Party people.
"LabourList is the leading place for news, views and debate about the centre left. Its readers and contributors come from across the labour movement and range from MPs and peers to grassroots activists.
We are supportive of but independent of the Labour Party. "

I'm going to ask you again. Name one Labour member who was explicitly found guilty of antisemitisism.

Labour won't tell us their names, but they are quite clear that they exist.
Naz Shah self confessed, and Labour List described Marc Wadsworth's outburst as "one of the oldest anti-Semitic tropes."
Tell us who Shami said was antisemitic. You can't, because she didn't.
Chakrabarti declined to name any of the guilty she referred to. (Peerage on its way?)
They exist though, whatever there names are.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Jul 16 - 03:07 AM

I care not about "winning" or "losing" professor, try reading IF by Rudyard Kipling "if you can meet with triumph and disaster and treat those imposters just the same"

What we have had reinforced is YOUR blatant RACISM.

Even Bobad acknowledges it was unacceptable in 1930's America, and here are you trying to justify it in 21st Century Britain.

Not that I'm at all surprised by the fact you are a racist.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jul 16 - 02:18 AM

Getting rattled Shaw? You would not know reasonable if it jumped up and bit you, it is not a trait you deal in.

IF the two investigations carried out had been transparent then names would have been named - but no it was decided that it did not matter a damn who said what in the past it would not mean expulsion and exclusion for life as "People change their minds" {The phrase actually used in the Report} - As it stands now there are collectively 27 recommendations that have to be addressed - sounds pretty serious to me (Not just something being taken seriously). A major damage control exercise and one of the worst kinds of "cover-up" you can have as it leaves the reality that there are anti-Semitic racists in the Party whose identities are known to the NEC but not to anyone else - kinda saps respect and trust of the voter.

Any comment on the recent polls that show that one-third of Labour voters would prefer to see Theresa May as Prime Minister than vote for Corbyn? Now that is some leader that you've got there, just what the "Party" needs, I say "Party" because precisely through this man's indomitable leadership he has managed single-handedly to destroy the main opposition party at Westminster to create three separate entities "Momentum" (His own personal cadre), the Parliamentary Labour Party who represent the Voters who voted for them NOT those who selected them, and finally the voters themselves, the 9.5 million people who voted for Labour. I have not mentioned the 551,000 signed up members of the Labour Party as that particular organisation has finally been taken over by, as Keith A says:

"violent, unprincipled and self-aggrandising bullies killing the Labour Party".

No bloody wonder you support and defend them Shaw - as described above you'd fit in with them seamlessly, as effortlessly as a duck takes to water.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jul 16 - 08:19 PM

Oh, give over, Woodcock. I thought for a minute there you were getting reasonable. There was a damn sight more naked transparency than you'd get with any of your tawdry crowd. I love it that we do stuff straight down the line sans the spin that you lot learned fom the despicable Blair. But all you do is sit back and allow the bloody Telegraph and the Express and the Rothermere fascists and the Murdoch wankers lead you by the nose. Underneath it all you know that Keith is up shit creek without a paddle. We don't expect you to ditch your pride and admit that out loud, but you're clever enough to extricate yourself from his ignorant bilge without losing face. We might even end up loving you. Shit.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Jul 16 - 07:49 PM

Raggytash - 27 Jul 16 - 03:31 PM

"When I was a child in the late 50's early 60's MY parents taught me it was wrong to label people as such. Not only MY parents but the parents of my friends and acquaintances. Not one of us would utter a word like that."

Then they all sat down to watch "The Black and White Minstrel Show" which ran from 1958 until 1978. Described as light entertainment it was considered extremely popular - even won prizes at Montreux.

"'There was no major antisemitism found in the Labour Party"

I think the report concluded that there was no institutionalised anti-Semitism in the Labour Party - that does under no circumstances means that anti-Semitism did not exist - far too many recommendations related to actions that have to be taken to eradicate the practice for it not to exist. Someone chirped up about transparency - If there was indeed real transparency then names would have been named, the fact that they weren't with any other political party or organisation the "usual suspects" would be screaming "whitewash" and "cover-up" from the roof-tops.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 27 Jul 16 - 07:18 PM

Segregation on public transport and word usage are two separate issues. I'm not an American but as far as I know African Americans used public transport but in some jurisdictions seating was segregated.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jul 16 - 06:40 PM

Well, as we allowed black people to sit on our buses long before you did, why would you suppose that we were behind you? 😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 27 Jul 16 - 06:05 PM

Notice I said in the US. I have no knowledge of how this term was considered in the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jul 16 - 05:47 PM

Bloody hell, Keith. Stuffed by bobad. Whatever next? Teribus joining the SWP? 😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 27 Jul 16 - 05:41 PM

The term has been considered offensive in the US at least since 1939 according to this letter from Thurgood Marshall to Whitman's candy company:


April 5, 1939

Dear Gentlemen:

A member of our Association has sent to us a package which had contained peppermint candy prepared by your company. The trade name on this package is "Whitman's Pickaninny Peppermints—Chocolate Covered."

On behalf of the members of this Association, we protest the use of the term "pickaninny" as applied to young Negro children whose pictures appear on your package. This term is extremely distasteful to Negroes.

We are calling this matter to your attention in the hope that you will discontinue the use of this term on packages of candy manufactured and distributed by you. We have not taken this matter up with our branches as yet, pending a reply from you. We will therefore appreciate an early reply.

Very truly yours,

Thurgood Marshall

Whitman's Pickaninny Peppermints—Chocolate Covered

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jul 16 - 05:41 PM

And as for this load of tripe:

"Jim,
'There was no major antisemitism found in the Labour Party , as hard as Keith tried.'

Yes there was. Quite a lot. See the Chakrabarti report."

Then quote the bits of the report that refer to major antisemitism. You can't, because there aren't any. Tell us who Shami said was antisemitic. You can't, because she didn't. The best you can do is to cast aspersions on her integrity. Well I don't always agree with her stances, but when it comes to integrity, honesty and straightforwardness she can knock any of the right-wing wankers who you support into a cocked hat. Go on, smear. I dare you.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jul 16 - 05:13 PM

Labour List are not the Labour Party. It is an entirely independent organisation. They are no more the Labour Party than AIPAC are Israel. So you can bloody cut that out for a start, you charlatan. Jesus, you are so dishonest. Good job some of us check you out every now and then. You are a very easy man to catch out, and do you know why that is? Because you think we're all so bloody thick that we'll take all your "authoritative" pronouncements on board without demur. Well you can think again.

I started working in multi-ethnic schools in East London in 1973. I can fearlessly assure you that "piccaninny" was a word even then that you would absolutely never use. My wife started work in a junior school in Stepney a year later. I've just checked with her. She was horrified at the suggestion that the word was ever even remotely acceptable even that long ago. It was not. The fact that you think it was marks you out as a racist.

I'm going to ask you again. Name one Labour member who was explicitly found guilty of antisemitism. I want something solid and not some waffly statements you've cherrypicked that are capable of infinite interpretation. And don't give me that sour-grapes "they would say that anyway" crap. The Labour Party have been searingly open and honest in dealing with this in the face of hostile onslaughts from sanctimonious supporters of the Israeli regime in the Tory party, the Labour right and hypocritical bunches of media racists. Which is a damn sight more than can be said about the sleazy organisations that you support, which deal with uncomfortable revelations via a massive spin machine. Christ, they didn't half learn a lot from Blair.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jul 16 - 03:36 PM

Rag, so you can not produce anything to support your assertions, but I could.
You lose.

Jim, Labour List on Chakrabarti,
" On a day in which at least one major milestone in the fight against anti-Semitism in the Labour party was achieved the news has, instead, focussed on the mishandling and outrageous racism at the launch event.

Many outlets reported Jeremy Corbyn's apparent equation of Israel and ISIS. Any correlation between the two would be wrong and offensive. His office claim he was misquoted and to me, his language was clumsy but then Jeremy never was a great wordsmith. However he did state, for the first time quite explicitly, that there was certain behaviour that should not be welcome in the Labour party and that for example the word "Zio" was a racist epithet that has no place in our party. It was shameful that a Momentum activist, took the opportunity to launch into one of the oldest anti-Semitic tropes as part of an attack on Ruth Smeeth. The unwelcoming environment for Jews remains and the press had the perfect example of just how it plays out."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Jul 16 - 03:31 PM

" Ok, show me something that says the word was considered racists ten years ago never mind 50!"

When I was a child in the late 50's early 60's MY parents taught me it was wrong to label people as such. Not only MY parents but the parents of my friends and acquaintances. Not one of us would utter a word like that.

The mere fact that YOU don't recognise it as being racist 1, 2, 5, 10 or even 50 years ago, as I do, clearly demonstrates without a shadow of a doubt YOUR inbred racism.

People with your attitude are an absolute disgrace.

Describing you as a little Englander actually works in your a favour because it makes an "excuse" for you not being intelligent enough in your own right to know instinctively that referring to people as "piccaninnies " is utterly, totally and completely wrong.

I hope you sleep well tonight, but before you sleep say a prayer to your god and ask forgiveness for your ignorance.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jul 16 - 03:22 PM

Jim,
There was no major antisemitism found in the Labour Party , as hard as Keith tried.

Yes there was. Quite a lot. See the Chakrabarti report.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jul 16 - 03:18 PM

"There you have it Keith, the Jews are the cause of anti-semitism in the Labour party."
That was as blatent an antisemitic statement as has ever been made on this forum - the rest of us think it is the Israeli propaganda machine
There was no major antisemitism found in the Labour Party , as hard as Keith tried.
Never mind eh?
A pair of Trolls - please don't start breeding.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jul 16 - 03:17 PM

The fact that it may not have caused this young man's death is not relevent to the fact that bullying takes place in the Tory Party

Yes, and it is despicable.
At least there was a prompt enquiry and the resignation of the party chairman.

No Labour resignations yet from any of their antisemites, bullies, misogynists and homophobes.

Moving on, do you agree with the Daily Mirror on Momentum (violent, unprincipled and self-aggrandising bullies killing the Labour Party), or with the 14 women MPs on misogyny and homophobia in the party?
Did you miss those posts?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 27 Jul 16 - 02:54 PM

There you have it Keith, the Jews are the cause of anti-semitism in the Labour party.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jul 16 - 02:08 PM

AND AGAIN
Israel's targetting British politicians seems to be common knowledge
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jul 16 - 01:52 PM

Finding no connection doesn't meen there wa#sn't one, nor does it mean that bullyinhgg didn't take placce, which you haven't responded to - nor did you respond to the other examples of bullying - more to come.
The fact that it may not have caused this young man's death is not relevent to the fact that bullying takes place in the Tory Party
As I said, bullying is only important if it is alleged to be done by Labour people.
ISRAEL TARGETS BRITISH POLITICIANS
WITCH HUNT
NOTHING TO DO WITH ISRAEL MY ARSE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jul 16 - 01:31 PM

Jim,
YOU WON'T RESPOND TO THIS

Yes I will.
BBC last May,
"However, Mr Osborne (Coroner)said he found "no connection" between Mr Johnson's complaint and CWF's decision to make him redundant.
Mr Johnson's father Ray said he believed Mr Clarke, who denied the bullying allegations, had "ruined" his son's career.
"We were unaware of, at the time, a victimisation campaign by Mr Clarke towards Elliott and other members of the Conservative Way Forward, which was getting steadily worse," he said.
Mr Johnson's allegations eventually sparked an investigation and the resignation of former party chairman Grant Shapps.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-36417699

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jul 16 - 01:30 PM

"No informed decent government believes all that propaganda Jim."]
Then you are not ashamed of yourself - pathetic
"Moving on, this thread is about the UK Labour Party."
It is about what we widh it to be - you are as fascist as Israel with your bahaviour
"self-aggrandising bullies killing the Labour Party), "
I don't know until I see the evidence
Do you agree with Tory bullies killing members of their own party - or is it only alleged Labour bullying you care about?
Told you you wouldn't respond to it
TRY THIS
Jim Carroll
Will be back with more about the Israeli campaign against left politicians later

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jul 16 - 12:52 PM

No informed decent government believes all that propaganda Jim.
No liberal democracy, just some of the world's nastier, undemocratic regimes who hate democracies like ors and Israel's.

Moving on, this thread is about the UK Labour Party.
Do you agree with the Daily Mirror on Momentum (violent, unprincipled and self-aggrandising bullies killing the Labour Party), or the 14 women MPs on misogyny and homophobia in the party?
Did you miss those posts?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jul 16 - 11:29 AM

"Who describes Israel as such?"
Thought you didn't want to discuss Isreal (only in order to defend it, it seems)
Just about every human rights organisation who ever reported on it.
Victims of its terrorism.
Medical services tending the Victims
Journalist writing reports on the mass#acres.
Independent reports, such as that on Sabra/Shatila
Television documentaries
The list is endless
Can't speak for politicians
If it hadn't been for U.S. vetoes, they would have been tried for war crimes - but then again, the U.S. record on hman rights issues isnt one to recommend it.
Israel were so sure that they were innocent they called for the Court to be abolished.
"No single decent democracy."
You mean - politician don't you
You ought to be ashamed of yourself fdefemnding attrocities with such a pathetic excuse - tell me again about your Christianity!!
"violent, unprincipled and self-aggrandising bullies killing the Labour Party"
Anther stick eh - any evidence other than electiooneering in-fighting by the right.
YOU WON'T RESPOND TO THIS
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jul 16 - 10:59 AM

Rag,
Unusual my arse, you are trying yet again to defend the indefensible and trying yet again to cover for your own innate racism.

Ok, show me something that says the word was considered racists ten years ago never mind 50!
In the old thread there was no suggestion that it might be racist, just not PC.
McGrath said it was in common use with no negative connotations in his youth.

Jim,
Pack this in Keith, you are becoming obsessive in your support of a terrorist state.
Who describes Israel as such?
No single decent democracy.
Just the nasty regimes that hate Israel and all other liberal democracies.

Stop trying to censor discussion - you've been warned about your tendency to do so on innumerable occasions.

It is impossible for ordinary members to censor discussion, and I have never been warned about any such thing.
You are making shit up as usual Jim.

Moving on, do you agree with the Mirror on Momentum (violent, unprincipled and self-aggrandising bullies killing the Labour Party), or the 14 women MPs on misogyny and homophobia?
Did you miss those posts?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jul 16 - 07:00 AM

"Is in itself an anti-semitic endeavour."
Israel is not the Jewish people and it is Antisemitic to suggest it is - by its own accepted definition
You are an Antisemite
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 27 Jul 16 - 06:43 AM

the BOYCOTT ISRAEL CAMPAIGN

Is in itself an anti-semitic endeavour.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jul 16 - 06:15 AM

You don't make somebody accused of racism any more than you make somebody found guilty of facilitating the massacre of 3,500 unarmed refugees Prime Minister.
Doing so brands the government s concerned as supporting those crimes.
PICCANINNY
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Jul 16 - 05:43 AM

Unusual my arse, you are trying yet again to defend the indefensible and trying yet again to cover for your own innate racism.

The fact that YOU don't recognise it speaks volumes.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jul 16 - 05:41 AM

"If there was not a serious problem, enquiries would not be needed."
All it takes is an accusation to be made for an enquiry to be needed - doesn't work for the Tory party apparently.
No serious racism or bigotry was uncovered -as I said, end of story.
"Accused by who"
Go look it up Keith - plenty of coverage, several examples given.
"If you mean Israel, I was asking that it HAVE a thread."
Pack this in Keith, you are becoming obsessive in your support of a terrorist state.
Stop trying to censor discussion - you've been warned about your tendency to do so on innumerable occasions.
Can we clear up this "right and left" garbage?
The Labour Party has been in the hands of the right wing for a long time now, Blair's "New Labour" was only the confirmation of what had been happening for decades.
It will be some time before Labour can ever be accused of being "Left" - the constitutional parties are indistinguishable one from another.
Antisemitm and racism have always been rge don#main of the right, while opposition to these, wherever it came from has always been branded as "Ledtie"
The German Right constructed and filled the death camps and the British Right supported them in doing so - The Daily Mail, The Duke of Wellington, the Right Club - all good Tory supporters.
The Left, alongside the Jews, the Gypsies and those considered physically and mentally unfit for society, went into the ovens - vctims of right-wing politics.
The B.N.P., National Front, Ukip are all right-wing organisations.
Given the fact that a large number of British people have declared themselves to be racist in thought and in deed, it is hardly surprising that a few bad apples have made their way into what was once, but o longer is a left wing Party
Racism, Antisemitism and many other forms of bigotry and intolerance are diseases of the right, not the left.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jul 16 - 05:21 AM

Rag, read the thread.
Your experience is very unusual or more likely your memory is wrong.

Daily Mirror 20 hours ago,
"Jeremy Corbyn is not about to shut down Momentum.
But he should.
What started as a movement to propel a quiet man to power has become a magnet for violent, unprincipled and self-aggrandising bullies.
They have damaged not only the reputation of Corbyn and forced him into contortions over his beliefs, but are killing the Labour Party."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Jul 16 - 05:07 AM

Not recognised as racist, Piccaninnies ? !!!!!


What bloody planet are you on? That word was recognised as racist when I was a child over 50 years ago.

Yet another example of you trying to defend the indefensible, so no change there.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jul 16 - 04:58 AM

Jim,

The Labour Party has carried out two enquiries and has found there not to be a serious majoir problem and made a number of recommendations in order for there not to be a problem in the future

If there was not a serious problem, enquiries would not be needed.
The NEC had acknowledged that it was a serious issue.
Chakrabarti found considerable antisemitism that had been ignored for years and made recommendations to deal with it.
What was the second enquiry Jim?

We now have a FOREIGN SECRETARY who has been accused of racism.
Accused by who and on what grounds Jim.
Your linked article gives no clue.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jul 16 - 04:51 AM

Jim,
It is somewhat gratifying to see you wriggle and plead that one of your favourite atrocity committers not be discussed on this forum

If you mean Israel, I was asking that it HAVE a thread.
Obviously a thread about the UK Labour Party is no place for it.
Do feel free to report me to anyone you like.

Chakrabarti inquiry: Labour not overrun by anti-Semitism

No-one ever claimed it was Jim, but she found that there was antisemitism and it had been ignored for years.

. As I said to Keith, show me a senior Labour official who has stated that any named individual has been found guilty of antisemitism.

I can't Steve, because they are so coy about naming names.
It has been unequivocally accepted though that these unnamed antisemites exist and needed to be reigned in.

Rag,
What was it Boris Johnson called African children ??? "Piccaninnies" wasn't it

That was many years ago when the word was not recognised as racists here.
See this thread, especially McGrath's contributions.thread.cfm?threadid=33069#438827

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jul 16 - 04:19 AM

The Labour Party has carried out two enquiries and has found there not to be a serious majoir problem and made a number of recommendations in order for there not to be a problem in the future - end of story.
The Tory Party has been accused of ISLAMOPHOBIA and RACISM - no action has been suggested, let alone acted upon.
We now have a FOREIGN SECRETARY who has been accused of racism.
Now who shall I vote for, let me see.....?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Jul 16 - 04:11 AM

When examining itself Shaw the "Left" don't do "blame" - their mantra after all is that it is - "Always someone else's fault" - which is why they say that there has never been a "truly socialist" government - because to some extent or other they have all failed to deliver.

Keith A's quotes from Naz Shah about her "anti-Semitic" comments, that you said you acknowledged - don't they count Steve?

As for searching through your posts? Naw not today got too much planned and too busy enjoying myself.

One for Raggy to ponder though on "Palestine" and "Palestinians" both of which were "invented" by Yasser Arafat in the early 1970s when he lost his "open cheque" backing from the former front-line Arab States. If what your pal Shaw says about references to Israel including both Arab, non-Jewish and Jewish citizens, then obviously any reference to "Palestine" and "Palestinians" must include everyone who lives there the Jews of "Palestine" as well as the Arabs and non-Arabs. Best show me a map of this Palestine of yours Raggy, preferably one from the PA, Hamas or Hezbollah that shows clearly these two-states, Israel and Palestine, that form this two-state solution they say they are "fighting" for.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jul 16 - 03:19 AM

Very amusing, Teribus. Absolutely nothing that we haven't done to death already. As I said to Keith, show me a senior Labour official who has stated that any named individual has been found guilty of antisemitism. Whilst I'd love to keep you off the streets all day while you search, instead I'll do you a favour and save your time. There isn't one. As I said to Keith, give me a clear-cut example, not a whole bunch of interpretable remarks about " serious issues" and "appalled by." In a nutshell, almost all cases of loose talk (which I don't defend in the least - the perpetrators are bloody idiots) have been sideswipes at Israel as a nation or at the Israeli regime, not at Jews because they are Jews. With your alleged penchant for accuracy, I'd have thought that you at least would have recognised that, but no, you would much rather stick with the sleazy cabal of ideologues you've signed up with.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jul 16 - 03:16 AM

"Start a thread then Jim. This on is about UK Labour Party."
Never agaon tell anyone here what to say or where to say it on this forum or I shall ask that you be removed.
It is somewhat gratifying to see you wriggle and plead that one of your favourite atrocity committers not be discussed on this forum - dream on.
As far as I am concerned, it is reasonable to surmise that the accusations of Antisemitism against one of the leading political parties in Britain has emanated from the propaganda to defend Israel from the BOYCOTT ISRAEL CAMPAIGN
The enquiry into Antisemitism reached the conclusion that tyhere was




Chakrabarti inquiry: Labour not overrun by anti-Semitism

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Jul 16 - 02:31 AM

Steve Shaw - 26 Jul 16 - 02:27 PM

"The Labour Party has not found her or anyone else guilty of antisemitism."

Really?? Opening sentence in the "Conclusions" Section of the Chakrabarti Report:

"This Inquiry was triggered by a series of unhappy incidents which did no credit to the Labour Party."

Note "a series of unhappy incidents" NOT "allegations of a series of unhappy incidents" there is no attempt at all in the report to minimise them as you have done Shaw.

Key recommendation No.1 in the Report:

1. Epithets such as "Paki", "Zio" and others should have no place in Labour Party discourse going forward.

Care to enlighten us as to what a "Zio" would be Shaw? A Zionist perhaps?

Key recommendation No.4 in the Report:

4. Labour members should resist the use of Hitler, Nazi and Holocaust metaphors, distortions and comparisons in debates about Israel-Palestine in particular.

Care to also explain why Cllr Allan Parry NEC came out with this statement then:

"The NEC are appalled by recent cases of antisemitic abuse. Antisemitism has no place in the Labour Party and is contrary to everything we stand for. Jeremy introduced a new code of conduct for the party, which states:

"The Labour Party is an anti-racist party, committed to combating and campaigning against all forms of racism…. Labour will not tolerate racism in any form inside or outside the party….Any behaviour or use of language which targets or intimidates members of ethnic or religious communities or incites racism, including anti-Semitism…or undermines Labour's ability to campaign against any form of racism, is unacceptable".

Within his definition of anti-racist your Party Leader includes anti-Semitism, you seem to want to exclude it reading what you have posted.

"The NEC are appalled by recent cases of antisemitic abuse. Antisemitism has no place in the Labour Party and is contrary to everything we stand for."

Now for them to have been appalled by those recent cases then there had to have been substance to them. No mention at all there of "allegations of anti-Semitic abuse". That two investigations have been undertaken and two reports written detailing recommendations and actions to be taken would lend one to believe that Labour's NEC did view it as a serious issue and they did deal with it seriously - "serious issue" and "an issue being dealt with seriously" are not mutually exclusive terms, don't pretend that they are.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jul 16 - 07:26 PM

Thank God it's you, Raggytash, and not 'im. I would have had to talk to him to tell him what a twit he is, just when I need to get to bed. Nighty-night, and don't let the definition-twisting delusionals bite!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Jul 16 - 07:19 PM

Bloody Computers !!!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Jul 16 - 07:18 PM

Daftest HA !

Which coast of Ireland on?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jul 16 - 05:54 PM

Tell me why.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Jul 16 - 05:41 PM

Steve Shaw - 26 Jul 16 - 03:46 PM

Now for someone who advises people to read through the thread Shaw then that post of yours referred to above is probably the daftest thing you've ever written - and believe me that takes a bit of doing.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jul 16 - 03:46 PM

A stupid post, full of denial, content-free, unsupportable assertions, just a smear. Nice one, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Jul 16 - 03:28 PM

LLong LLLLive the Liberal LLLLLLabor Party

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jul 16 - 03:16 PM

Jim,
And I am inviting you to provide some real proof other than "Israel says they did't do it

Start a thread then Jim. This on is about UK Labour Party.

Steve,

The Labour Party has not found her or anyone else guilty of antisemitism.

Yes they have Steve.
You denied the antisemitism, but the Labour Party has recognised it.
Shay has recognised it in herself, and with the help of the Jewish community has informed herself of the real evil.

1000 anyone?
My gift.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jul 16 - 02:27 PM

"Your denial of her and others' antisemitism just shows that you do not recognise it when you see it. Labour accepts it for what it was. Why won't you Steve?"

The Labour Party has not found her or anyone else guilty of antisemitism. You have because you want that wider definition of yours, which you've already lied in your teeth to us about, to apply. She made an extremely stupid remark about relocating "Israel" to the US. Israel is a country, Keith. It contains a quarter Arabs and three-quarters Jews. If I say that South Africans are bastards, that would be an extremely stupid remark, but not racist. Even though most South Africans are black, a considerable number are not. If I say that black South Africans are bastards, that's racist. If I say that all the Jews should be removed from Israel, that's antisemitic. Antisemitism is a crime against people, not against a whole country. There is a world of difference between a bloody stupid, thoughtless remark and an antisemitic remark. The far right, including you, the Mail and the Telegraph are the people calling her antisemitic. The Labour Party have not said that. So stop lying. And please stop providing us with interpretable comments as if they are proof. Find me instead a Labour official who says that Naz Shah is antisemitic.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jul 16 - 02:10 PM

"I am encouraging you to expose your gullibility to propaganda again"
And I am inviting you to provide some real proof other than "Israel says they did't do it and the silence of self-serving politicians who sell arms to monsters and stayed silent for 14 years while America poured burning petrol down on Vietnamese peasants.
How stupid can you get?
I take it we've heart#d the last of your "thread-drift" gambit when you find yourself in the klarts!!
"Please, please start one about Israel Jim."
Stop grovelling and take your punishment like a man
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Jul 16 - 01:54 PM

What was it Boris Johnson called African children ??? "Piccaninnies" wasn't it and Africans have "Watermelon" smiles wasn't it, again according to Johnson.

Now if you're talking about appalling comments I'd start with the Tory party.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jul 16 - 01:51 PM

"Anything specific about any one or more given person ..."
This is no more than a thrashing around to pin things on the Labour party that are present in every aspect of British life
CHURCH of ENGLAND
CHURCH of ENGLAND
CHURCH of ENGLAND
As I said - bloody nonsense
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jul 16 - 01:50 PM

So I have been warned many times against doing something that is impossible anyway!

I do not want to censor your nonsense about Israel.
I am encouraging you to expose your gullibility to propaganda again, but this thread has nothing to do with Israel or the Middle East.

This thread is about the UK Labour Party.
Please, please start one about Israel Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jul 16 - 01:33 PM

"There are no right wing extremists here"
Know thyself Keith
"and censorship is impossible for ordinary members"
I'm fully aware of that, are you - if so, why do you keep trying to manipulate these threads - you have been doing it for years ad have been warned against it numerous times.
I assume that, now you are aware of it, it won't happen again!!
homophobia
Yet another stick to beat Labour with - this has acquired an air of desperation.
"CofE yes. And I know them better than you."
Utter bloody nonsense
Churchgoers are just as likely to be homophobic as anybody from other community or group in Britain.
Religion, by its very teaching, is homophobic and it would be a miracle if there weren't hordes of churchgoers of every denomination who weren't deeply homophobic.
Not that you would know - you have displayed some of the most inhuman and non-Christian attitudes I have ever come across.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Jul 16 - 01:30 PM

Anything specific about any one or more given person ................


No thought not.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jul 16 - 12:51 PM

This article has been written by 14 Labour Party members: Honor Cohen, Ilford North; Emma O'Dwyer, Hackney North; Carli Harper, Greenwich and Woolwich; Katie Curtis, Hornsey and Wood Green; Estelle Hart, Gower; Melantha Chittenden, Ashford; Vic Langer, Hornsey and Wood Green; Chantel Le Carpentier, Eastleigh; Katrina Gilman, Telford; Ruth Meadows, Telford; Natacha Kennedy, Eltham; Deirdre Costigan, Ealing North; Amy Lame, Holborn and St Pancras; Katie Hanson, Hackney South and Shoreditch.

"The Labour Party is the party of equality. It was past Labour governments that decriminalised homosexuality and introduced comprehensive legislative change on LGBT rights. The Labour Party has played a distinguished and major part in making the UK a more open and tolerant society on issues of sexuality and women's rights over the past few decades.

Yet now, under political pressure, the debate within the Labour Party about its future direction is coarsened by misogyny aimed at women politicians and open homophobia directed at a leadership candidate."

"The misogyny and homophobia that women politicians and party members experience on social media when people have political differences needs to stop – but the frequency with which it happens makes reporting and taking action an endless task. We have relatively few women in parliament and in local government who are out so, when high profile out women politicians are trolled online, degraded in meetings and receive death threats by email, increasing representation from this group can only be held back."

"There is a worrying further development, namely the denial of prejudice. In the back and forth on social media, broadcast media and in the press there are repeated denials of any sexist or homophobic motive in criticism aimed at candidates and those who have openly taken a political side. This denial occurs even when clearly there is prejudice, and there is evidence that there is."
http://labourlist.org/2016/07/if-homophobia-is-allowed-back-into-politics-then-it-takes-society-back-to-the-dark-ages/

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jul 16 - 12:42 PM

Jim,
And I find it hilarious how you right wing extremists always revert to censorship when the going gets tough

There are no right wing extremists here, and censorship is impossible for ordinary members.
I do not want you to stop discussing Israel. I would welcome the chance to debunk all your propaganda again. I just will not help you to hijack a thread that has nothing whatever to do with Israel.

jack,

There is a serious issue with racism in the Labour Party but it has nothing to do with anti-Semitism.
The NEC, the Chakrabarti report and numerous prominent Labour politicians disagree with you on that.

No-one has been found guilty of antisemitism, you arrogant sod.

Yes they have, but Chakrabarti chose not to name them. (Peerage on its way?)
Shah has admitted that she made antisemitic statements due to her ignorance of the issues.

Your denial of her and others' antisemitism just shows that you do not recognise it when you see it. Labour accepts it for what it was. Why won't you Steve?

So you reckon that no-one who goes to church is antisemitic,

CofE yes. And I know them better than you.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jul 16 - 12:10 PM

That was to Keith, Jack.

"Racist collaborators" is a bit strong. Calling the racist agenda out for what it was because of its attacks on immigrants would have been like calling half the country racist and that would hardly have swung the bloody thing round. The remain campaign was uncoordinated and tactically bereft and made worse by the employment of the fear factor, and the out campaign always had that immigration trump card, used cynically to the full. Let's not forget that Cameron and May had sealed their own fate by promising to control immigration and failing abysmally. I agree that Labour did not exhibit a strong, united front and that Corbyn lacked genuine commitment. But the Tories, who forced the bloody referendum on us, was split from arse to tit, which doomed Cameron in the end.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jul 16 - 11:58 AM

No-one has been found guilty of antisemitism, you arrogant sod. I haven't heard a single reported remark that attacked Jews BECAUSE THEY ARE JEWS. I would neither stay in nor vote for a party that allowed comments like that to pass and I've never allowed it in my own personal life, including in 25 years in secondary school classrooms. Yes I've heard unguarded remarks about Israel, Zionism and the Nazis that were bloody stupid and made without regard for consequences but there has been no attack on Jews as Jews, allegedly apart from the one about the slave trade that you had to misrepresent so as to wedge it into your antisemitism box (nothing as bad as "culturally implanted," was it, though, Keith?). Stuff your silly personal definition of antisemitism where the sun don't shine, why don't you. Unbelievable. I mean, who do you think you are, judge, jury and executioner? Are you sure you can spare the time from your job as self-appointed forum policeman? So you reckon that no-one who goes to church is antisemitic, eh, notwithstanding the fact that religion is THE basis for sectarianism and hatred of The Other the world over? Only Labour members, eh? Add gross naivety to your long list of personality defects, Keith! 😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 Jul 16 - 11:55 AM

There is a serious issue with racism in the Labour Party but it has nothing to do with anti-Semitism.

The Brexit campaign was the deadliest racist initiative in the UK since the rise of Mosley, and what did Labour do to fight it? Fuck all. And that particularly goes for Corbyn. Pathetic bunch of wimps, at best, and racist collaborators at worst.

It would not have been that difficult to flush Farage and his pals down the toilet of history if they'd actually reached up to pull the chain. Instead they did NOTHING, with a few honourable exceptions like Jo Cox (who would still be alive if the UKIP soldier who killed her had seen he was outnumbered by a united opposition).

Labour is a moribund irrelevance, and good riddance to it.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Jul 16 - 11:29 AM

Don't you just love it !!

"Teribus" talks of "Palestine" as so it is a figment of someone's imagination rather like Akenaton and his gay "marriage"

Neither can accept that both are a reality, there is a state of Palestine which in 2001 applied for United Nations membership.

In 2012 Palestine was granted non-member observer state status. That in itself clearly demonstrates that the UN acknowledge it's statehood.

Mind you he has said that Palestine was created by Yassar Arafat in he 1970' despite it being mentioned in the Bible.

Must dig that post of "Terbus's" out it was hilarious, a first class example of uneducated bluster.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jul 16 - 10:18 AM

"Jim, Israel is not accused of illegal actions by any liberal democracy, because it is just anti-Israel propaganda."
Your point is....?
You were happy enough to make your pro-Israeli points yesterday but not to defend them when challenged.
"Only you actually Jim!"
Not necessarily true, but so what - can I only make points that are accepted by others - another self-concocted rule?
"This thread is about the Labour Party"
This thread is about whatever we regard is relevant to this subject - can't see your little copyright mark anywhere
Will you please stop breaking the rules of this forum by attempting to censor inconvenient facts - you do this far too much
"No. I will just stick to the subject and not get drawn in."
Who cares whether you join in or not - we know what you will say anyway
"Please start one Jim."
Please mind your own business
"I find it amusing that you lefties are so desperate to change the subject."
And I find it hilarious how you right wing extremists always revert to censorship when the going gets tough - tanks and paras next maybe?
DO NOT ATTEMPT TO INTERFERE WITH MY CONTRIBUTIONS TO THIS FORUM EVER AGAIN - WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK YOU ARE?

"Not really interested in Jom's conspiracy theories"
Not really interested in braindeads who attemp to hide their affliction by talking down to people permanently, particularly those who can't be bothered to learn to spell three-letter words - come back when somebody's taught you how to conduct yourself in public.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jul 16 - 10:13 AM

It's a handful of members, mostly junior, who need to watch their mouths, and the culprits have acknowledged what they did. Over half a million Labour members, on the other hand, have never been accused. That's how "disgraceful" it is.

You would call it disgraceful in any other party.
And they do not need to "watch their mouths" but educate themselves out of the antisemitism betrayed by their mouths.

You can bet your life that if there are 200 people in your pews next Sunday, a few dozen of them would do a buttock shuffle if you told them that a devout Jewish family were moving in next door.

A disgusting falsehood Steve.
I would bet my life not one.

You must still be a teenager then, Keith.

No, because this is nothing to do with polling, but a party "teetering on the edge of extinction."
There has been nothing like the current Labour shambles in our lifetime.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jul 16 - 09:56 AM

"Nonsense Steve. In my lifetime I can not remember any serious party being in such a mess."

You must still be a teenager then, Keith. Labour got an overall majority of 179 in 1997, and had the LibDems done a bit worse it would have looked even worse than that for the Tories. It was hardly better next time round either. Let's see if Theresa can manage a majority of 180 NEXT time round, shall we, Keith? 😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jul 16 - 09:40 AM

It's a handful of members, mostly junior, who need to watch their mouths, and the culprits have acknowledged what they did. Over half a million Labour members, on the other hand, have never been accused. That's how "disgraceful" it is. You can bet your life that if there are 200 people in your pews next Sunday, a few dozen of them would do a buttock shuffle if you told them that a devout Jewish family were moving in next door. But, you see, Keith, they don't get asked. They don't get to make high-profile public statements with hawkish media watching. There will be no enquiry. Unhealthy attitudes can be swept under the carpet. When carpets get folded back we see a horror story though, don't we. Four million people voted for a racist party in the last election. Millions of people were hoodwinked into voting out by a cynically racist campaign. Ugly stuff. But you'd rather concentrate on a few people constantly in the public eye who forgot to engage their brains before opening their mouths than address the ugly realities of racism perpetrated by people who you support. That makes you a hypocrite.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jul 16 - 09:27 AM

Not one response to the post regarding racism within the conservative party that I posted yesterday.

There have been many such posts and even threads.
I never defend Tories or any other party. Why should I start now?

Jim,
Then why did you participate in your old usual defending Israel

Me yesterday,
"Jim, Israel is not accused of illegal actions by any liberal democracy, because it is just anti-Israel propaganda.
This thread is about the Labour Party, but if you want Israel's side of any particular event, do start a new thread or reopen one of the dozens already started."

Som of us believe that the accusations of Antisemitism (now dismissed) (now confirmed!!) originated with the Israeli propaganda campaign.

Only you actually Jim!

If you want to control what is argued on this thread you're going to have to find a way of copyrighting them

No. I will just stick to the subject and not get drawn in.
I find it amusing that you lefties are so desperate to change the subject.

If you can't stand the hat, get out of the kitchen

I have no opinion about your hat, but would enjoy another Israel thread. Please start one Jim.

steve,
You are indeed flagging up all these issues in this thread and you are doing it in an uhealthily obsessive way.

Nonsense Steve. In my lifetime I can not remember any serious party being in such a mess.
Of course it deserves a thread and of course such extraordinary things will be flagged up in it.

When it comes to antisemitism, Labour has properly addressed it.
Yes it has, but what a disgraceful thing. And you denied it at the time.
Of course it deserved mention in a thread about the many Labour crises!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jul 16 - 09:22 AM

You are out of your depth, Teribus. You have a very long thread to wade through as well. All three of us have said, many times in some cases, that we have not denied the issue that arose. The Labour Party has properly addressed the issue and has carried out an enquiry and we accept the results. As Raggytash said, and what you and Keith simply can't accept, there is a world of difference between a serious issue and an issue taken seriously. Which it has been. Thoroughly and comprehensively and no-one here has denied it. Keith's sub-plot here is to obsessively blacken the Labour Party as much as possible. You're right: at present, Labour doesn't need help. And there is plenty of evidence in all the links to Israeli comment in this thread that the Israeli regime have plenty of energy when it comes to gleefully attacking Labour with all the relish they can muster. You see? Read the thread and straighten out your thinking, then your postings might just become a bit more believable.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Jul 16 - 09:08 AM

Jim Carroll - 26 Jul 16 - 04:04 AM

Lovely to see how well you demonstrate your hypocrisy.

You clearly have one set of rules that the Jewish nation must live by and adhere to and quite a different set of rules that apply to the Arab nations of the region.

As usual your views ignore reality and well documented fact. The territory that came to be referred to as "Palestine" in 1923 was open to settlement by all.

There have only ever been two instances where "Palestinian" Land has been stolen - both those instances occurred in 1948 when the Egyptians invaded and annexed the Gaza Strip from 1948 until 1967 and when the Jordanians invaded and occupied East Jerusalem and the West Bank.

In 1947 the Arabs rejected the two state solution proposed by the UN.

The Arabs chose war and lost, in the ensuing ceasefire negotiations no borders were ever defined.

Not really interested in Jom's conspiracy theories - I'd say that the Israeli Government has got a damned sight more to be bothered about than expending any time and effort in discrediting the Labour Party in the United Kingdom. Besides the Labour Party in the UK do more than a perfectly efficient job of bringing discredit on themselves without needing any outside assistance.

The anti-Semitic issue and concerns were reported, as Keith A originally stated, by Labour's NEC - the fact that Jom, Raggy & Shaw cannot accept that is typical of them - so they argue as though it was Keith A who came up with the allegations - when of course he didn't. Same with the other charges. These clowns may convince each other but they do not fool anyone else.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jul 16 - 09:06 AM

You are a hypocrite, Keith. You are indeed flagging up all these issues in this thread and you are doing it in an uhealthily obsessive way. When it comes to antisemitism, Labour has properly addressed it. Neither you nor bobad have ever addressed your own rampant antisemitism. People like you who conflate criticism of Israel with antisemitism (precisely what you're doing in the case of the Labour Party and precisely what you were doing with your discreditable attempt to claim that a defunct document was official EU policy on antisemitism) put all Jewish people in harm's way. I never do that, Jim never does that, the Labour Party doesn't do that, but the Israeli regime does that in spades and you and bobad are its sycophantic cheerleaders. You should be ashamed.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jul 16 - 08:24 AM

"This thread is about Labour,"
Then why did you participate in your old usual defending Israel
Som of us believe that the accusations of Antisemitism (now dismissed) originated with the Israeli propaganda campaign.
If you want to control what is argued on this thread you're going to have to find a way of copyrighting them
If you can't stand the hat, get out of the kitchen
You have been tolkd befiore ofte enough, you have no authority to censor what is said on this forum
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Jul 16 - 08:00 AM

Not one response to the post regarding racism within the conservative party that I posted yesterday.

Why does he look at the speck of sawdust in his brothers eye when he pays no attention to the plank in his own. (to paraphrase Mark 7:3)

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jul 16 - 07:51 AM

This thread is about Labour, and there is no justification for you to keep trying to make it yet another Israel thread.

As Steve said, Antisemitism didn't work, misogyny didn't work - now bullying.

Antisemitism was a serious issue for Labour, according to its NEC, the Chakrabarti report and numerous senior figures within Labour, not me.

Misogyny and homophobia were flagged up as Labour Party problems
by prominent people within Labour, not me.

Now bullying is being seen as an issue, by a senior front-bencher, and by 44 women Labour MPs, not by me.

Jim, you make yourself ridiculous by denying all these serious issues and by claiming they come from me!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jul 16 - 07:44 AM

We don't have to try. You always respond, then when the going gets tough you bleat about thread drift. Tough. Mudcat has no rules about thread drift.

Hezbollah plays a full part in the democratically-elected government of Lebanon. You don't get to be in an elected government without some popularity. Why don't you find out what they do apropos of health, education and social services? Find out why they get elected? Of course, you won't bother finding out if you want to believe that all they ever do is hate Jews, try to eliminate Israel, strap explosives to their kids or fire rockets across the border. Likewise, Hamas. Read about their efforts to reach peaceful compromise with the most uncompromising regime on earth, their next-door bullying neighbour Israel. Read about how they struggle to keep the water flowing, keep hospitals and send kids to school in the world's biggest open-air prison. They also get a lot wrong. You won't be corrupted into supporting them, I promise. But just for once you will find out how these war-torn territories try to get by day by day even when the rockets aren't flying and the white phosphorus and helicopter gunships are on hold. We call it seeing both sides. If you believe that anyone in the Middle East who isn't actually a Jew is a Jew-hating sub-human, as bobad does and as you appear to do, you won't bother, of course.

By the way, what I've said about what Hamas and Hezbollah do in government could also be said about the Tories. Yeah, I support the Tories too, don't I? In your dreams, you clown.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jul 16 - 07:25 AM

"This thread is about Labour party "
This thread is abut whatever aspect of Antisemitism contributors wish to state their opinion on.
You have been happy to take part in this aspect of it until you began to tread water, if you can't hack it, leave it to those who t#can and stop manipulating this forum (again)
As Steve said, Antisemitism didn't work, misogyny didn't work - now bullying.
Do you know what the reputation of the Tory party is on all these subjects - go look them up.
They are all aprt of the rotten political system we live under and Labour comes out in front in all of them
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jul 16 - 07:21 AM

I have replied briefly to posts about ME, but refused to be drawn into discussion.
It is your side who keeps trying to bring it up.
Why?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jul 16 - 06:37 AM

"This thread is about Labour party btw, not Middle East politics."

Have you PMed the other two members of your unholy trinity, bobad and Teribus, to tell them this? They don't appear to have noticed. You yourself have hardly been scrupulous in avoiding diversions either, have you? Hypocrite.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jul 16 - 06:37 AM

Bullying now is it Keith?
Apparently.
According to an ex shadow cabinet minister anyway.
(I did not make it up Steve.)

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jul 16 - 06:33 AM

Bullying now is it Keith? When are you going to get round to telling us that we'd better lock up our daughters whenever Jeremy comes within a hundred miles, or that the Labour left eat babies? Why was Malhotra still in her office a month after she resigned whereas Cameron had gone from Downing Street within days (probably had to jump the queue to get Pickfords in that fast)? Stop making a fool of yourself, Keith, is my advice. You're putting us out of a job.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jul 16 - 06:15 AM

Malhotra (ex shadow cabinet minister)told BBC Radio 4's Westminster Hour Sunday night:

"I do think the leadership needs to do far more, I'm not the only person who has said this. I am of the view that there is a culture of bullying that has entered the Labour Party which isn't what we're about, it isn't what we stand for and it's something we have to stamp out and absolutely that has to start with the leader."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jul 16 - 06:08 AM

If I say that millions of people in Lebanon and Gaza approve of Hezbollah and Hamas, I am stating an incontrovertible fact

How do you know this?
In Gaza the opposition has been eradicated, and there is no free press or elections.
Hezbollah may be popular with the Shia, but it is hated by the Sunnis.
It is a violent sectarian terror group.

This thread is about Labour party btw, not Middle East politics.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jul 16 - 04:51 AM

A reminder of what this is really all about
STEALING PALESTINE
Confirmation from the Horse's mouth:
"Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? "
David Ben Gurion
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jul 16 - 04:04 AM

"Care to explain why in 1947 those you champion now rejected the UN proposed Two State solution, they claim to be "fighting" for now?
No actually - I don't care to explain anything to you until you learn to spell my name correctly.
I've no intention of being talked down to by a mental midget - it's become somewhat boring.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Jul 16 - 03:19 AM

As you are going back to the late 1940s Jom - Care to explain why in 1947 those you champion now rejected the UN proposed Two State solution, they claim to be "fighting" for now?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jul 16 - 03:04 AM

"The statement above of course completely ignores the fact that if organisations like Hamas and Hezbollah did not exist the people of Lebanon and Gaza would not be under threat of attack from anyone"
Israel was driving out the Palestinians and carrying out massacres long before both were in existence - just as Jews such as Einstein and his colleagues were warning were warning of the rise of Israeli fascism as far back as the late 1940s
EINSTIEN'S PETITION
Had it not been for opposition, the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians would have been a done deal decades ago and those hanging on would have joined the 5,248,185 driven out of they homeland.
Recognising the necessity for opposition does not mean that you automatically support the form that that opposition takesBUT WHEN THE DEVIL DRIVES..... .
I do NOT like liars, twisters, deniers and delusional, bigoted argument either
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Jul 16 - 12:45 AM

"I dislike Islamic organisations such as Hamas and Hezbollah as much as I dislike the current Israeli regime, but I know why they are there and I know that the people of Gaza and Lebanon know that no-one else is going to defend them against Israel. It's called seeing the other side. You should try it some time."

The statement above of course completely ignores the fact that if organisations like Hamas and Hezbollah did not exist the people of Lebanon and Gaza would not be under threat of attack from anyone. Plus the added bonus of not being used as human shields and they might just possibly actually receive some of the aid donated to them by other countries.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 25 Jul 16 - 09:46 PM

You know, to ascribe such a stupid statement to ignorance is too simplistic. There is something more deep seated and sinister at play here. I can give it a name but don't have to as it is evident to anyone not blinded by hatred.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jul 16 - 09:33 PM

It happens to be entirely factual. Be careful when it rears up to bite you on the bum. You might think it's one of those nasty antisemites. Actually, as you're an antisemite and you have a double identity, you may end up biting yourself on the bum. Don't let the stink of bigotry put you off.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 25 Jul 16 - 08:48 PM

defend them against Israel

There you go - can't fix stupid and prejudice.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jul 16 - 08:16 PM

Oh, do tell us. Bet you're wearing Chinese clothes...

Yer man in Germany was not the one famed for making the trains run on time. That was yer man in Italy. A simple fact to get completely wrong, precisely what we expect from you and your best mate Keith. Can never even get the little stuff right, so definitely never to be trusted on the big stuff. Go on, have a go at twisting that one. 😂😂😂

And Hitler's policy towards the Jews was predicated on concerted, mass-murderous action. Hamas and Hezbollah are all talk and ramshackle rockets aimed nowhere in particular, bloody foolish talk at that. Cut through their vile crap and find the underlying grievances (it may help you to understand if you research why Hamas and Hezbollah came about in the first place). Suffice to say that, while numbers games are invidious of course, those two unpleasant organisations have killed less than a tenth of those killed, mostly civilians in cold blood, by successive Israeli regimes. And did you notice something? I said by Israeli regimes, you know, the politicos and the generals giving orders, not rampaging hordes of out-of-control Jews. You see, unlike you I'm not antisemitic. I dislike Islamic organisations such as Hamas and Hezbollah as much as I dislike the current Israeli regime, but I know why they are there and I know that the people of Gaza and Lebanon know that no-one else is going to defend them against Israel. It's called seeing the other side. You should try it some time. Dunno whether you could live with the guilt though.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 25 Jul 16 - 06:35 PM

Right Shaw, there was a fellow in Germany, as I recall, who was approved by millions of people and made the trains run on time. He also had the same policy towards Jews as do Hamas and Hezbollah. Are you just as inclined to expound on the positive qualities of his regime?

PS. Look up at how dissenters and critics of Hamas and Hezbollah are dealt with by them and that might give you a clue to the numbers that you say approve of them.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jul 16 - 05:43 PM

If I say that millions of people in Lebanon and Gaza approve of Hezbollah and Hamas, I am stating an incontrovertible fact and I am NOT expressing my personal approval of them, you clown. You can actually read plain English, can you? Well we did have our doubts about that during your self-inflicted Wheatcroft fiasco, of course. Next, when have I ever "objected to this thread," you berk? If I "object to a thread" I do what any sane person does and ignore the bloody thing. You really are off your rocker, aren't you?

Incidentally, if you want some facts about Hezbollah's work in Lebanon, it's all freely accessible online. You are allowed to read them, you know. You won't be corrupted into "supporting" Hezbollah. But if all you can do is bleat about how many countries brand them terrorists and clasp your hands over your eyes and ears about everything else, you are not allowing yourself to see all sides. Oh, I forgot. You never want to do that, do you? The very last thing you want is for your prejudices to be undermined. That trait is called bigotry. If the cap fits...

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 16 - 03:59 PM

Steve,
I do NOT support Hezbollah and have never said anything that would make any sane and reasonable person think that I do.

But you said this earlier in support of Hamas and Hezbollah,
"millions of people in Lebanon and Gaza approve of Hamas and Hezbollah, not just for resisting Israel but also because they help to run the country, rather well in the case of Lebanon. "

Are you sure those people approve?
In Gaza the opposition has been eradicated and no elections are held.
Hezbollah is a recognised terror group with no mandate in Lebanon except the gun.

I do NOT think it's wrong to mention issues in Labour's ranks.

Then why do you object to this thread?

The only two people you've been "brave" enough to name

It takes no bravery to give names, but I only know the names given by Labour people.
There are clearly many more than two!!
That is made clear by Chakrabarti, NEC and others I have quoted.

Jim, Israel is not accused of illegal actions by any liberal democracy, because it is just anti-Israel propaganda.
This thread is about the Labour Party, but if you want Israel's side of any particular event, do start a new thread or reopen one of the dozens already started.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jul 16 - 03:22 PM

I do NOT think it's wrong to mention issues in Labour's ranks. The only two people you've been "brave" enough to name have not been found guilty of antisemitism. They are guilty of opening their mouths before engaging their brains, that's all, and they both regret what they said. You do it all the time and you never say sorry. They're a million times better than you are.

I do NOT think it's wrong to put both sides of arguments.

I do NOT support Hezbollah and have never said anything that would make any sane and reasonable person think that I do. You appear to have failed at both those hurdles.

I do NOT like liars, twisters, deniers and delusional, bigoted argument. You are bang to rights on all those grounds, Keith. It's truly pathetic. I feel sorry for you. And, believe me, you are NOT "centre right." If you're centre-right then I'm the bloody Queen of Sheba and akenaton is a socialist.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jul 16 - 02:14 PM

"Yes, because they do not believe in them."
They are there to be seen - are you suggesting that all the eye witness accounts and Human rights reports are all lies and we should believe the silence of the politicians and ignore the evidence of our own eyes? - this is a new low in your defence of these killers.
Do you have any ec#vidence that they don't believe them or are you making it up?
"describe it as a serious issue."
Your altziemers appears to be kicking in again - it was mind-nu7mbingly stupid the first time you said it.
There was found to be that there was no serious problem - was the report a sham?
"Antisemitic statements
As to be found throughout Britain, only in a tiny minority - you lied about there being a major p#roblem and you continue to lie.
The evidence of the report makes that clear - uless you would like to say it was faked!!
Not even you
and abuse"
What abuse - or are you repeating "Antisemitic statements" in a different form to to make it look more serious?
How dishonest are you going to get to "win" this argument Keith?
By the way
"One more time:"
Another lie - yhou have never put up these pathetic excuses before - you have only done so now because you have been forced into a corner
Do you sleep with your NOSE OUT OF THE WINDOW at night?
You really do have no self respect, do you?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jul 16 - 02:06 PM

You really are hysterically barking mad, aren't you? 😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 16 - 01:54 PM

Criticisms of Tories are posted here all the time, but Labour is now in a crisis that threatens its extinction and you people think it wrong for anyone to mention it!

You lefties are just so terrified of open debate (because you always lose!).

All you lefties love to repeat Palestinian propaganda against Israel, but you think it wrong for anyone to put the other side of the argument.

You lefties are just so terrified of open debate (because you always lose!).

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 16 - 01:50 PM

Are you going to provide us with ansrs to the questions?
One more time:
"How many Antisemites

I don't know, but enough to "appal" the NEC and for the entire NEC to describe it as a serious issue.

Who are they -

Some were named, Shah, Livingston etc. Otherwise ask Labour. I am just an observer.

What form exactly does that antisemitism take

Antisemitic statements and abuse.

The so called Libersal democracies have remained silent on it,(Israel's crimes)

Yes, because they do not believe in them.

they have remained silent on the atrocities committed by Assad or Qaddafi

No they have not.

Israeli atrocities speak for themselves

No they do not.
I have put Israel's case that the actions were legal and justified.

Who the **** supports Hezbollah?

Steve a few posts ago today.
Happy with that?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jul 16 - 01:14 PM

Link didn't work
Try this
EXTREME TAKEOVER
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jul 16 - 01:09 PM

"
Few of us provide Israel's side, which is accepted by all liberal democracies as the truth."
The so called Libersal democracies have remained silent on it, just a they have remained silent on the atrocities committed by Assad or Qaddafi, or any of their allies prior to them falling out.
this is due to political interest and economic expediency, not support.
Israel has been condemned throughout#t the world by Huab rights groups, by medical workers on the scene, by the international press.... by anybody who has been involved in or witness to the atrocities committed by Israel - there are entire works, from Jews and non Jews alike, condemning the behaviour of the Israeli regime, including high-ranking members of the Israeli establishment
EXTREME TAKEOVER
s you produce the silence of politicians as a support - do not be stupid.
"Few of us provide Israel's side, "
Wonder why - do you think it's because we recognise it as a terrorist state?
I doubt if many here would have provided Hitler's side of the argument - shame on us for the unfair shower of bastards we are.
Wahat an utterly stupid statement.
Israeli atrocities speak for themselves - we have seen them on our television screens, we read about them in our newspapers, I have personally met some of the victims of these atrocities.
"I have never posted about Labour before in my 20 years here"
You are certainly making up for lost time here.
Are you going to provide us with ansrs to the questions?
One more time:
"How many Antisemites
Who are they - have they been expelled?
What form exactly does that antisemitism take
"Hezbollah fights for Assad."
Who the **** supports Hezbollah?
What's your point?
Britain is fighting on the same side as Assad in a war we helped create and could have helped avoid.
Happy with that?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 16 - 11:50 AM

Every time we discuss Israel and you refuse to acknowledge even the slightest criticism of the regime, you tell us that you're only putting "Israel's side of the story."

Plenty of you put the criticisms.
Few of us provide Israel's side, which is accepted by all liberal democracies as the truth.

This thread demonstrates that you are single-mindedly and obsessively taking sides against Labour

No.
I have never posted about Labour before in my 20 years here.
This situation is just to big to ignore.
"Labour Party is teetering on the edge of extinction." That was a contender for leader just days ago!

Hamas and Hezbollah have certainly carried out terrorist activities, but then so has the Israeli regime, in spades.

Says who?
Not one single liberal democracy accuses Israel of any terrorism.

Hezbollah fights for Assad.
Happy with that?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jul 16 - 10:42 AM

"I would say that anyone who refers to a group that advocates the killing of Jews as a friend is a Jew hater, wouldn't you?"

That isn't what you said. You're even misrepresenting your own posts now. 😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jul 16 - 10:21 AM

"I would say that anyone who refers to a group that advocates the killing of Jews "
I would say that anybody who blames war crimes and human rights abuses on the Jewish people is responsible for putting the libves of all Jews at risk - take a bow.
Cor byn's describing Hezbolah and Hamas "friends" happened seven years ago - he has since thought better of his statement
CORBYN and HAMAS
Do you know if Israel ever apologised for offering to arm Apartheid South Africa with nuclear weapons?
I missed it if they did
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 25 Jul 16 - 09:51 AM

I would say that anyone who refers to a group that advocates the killing of Jews as a friend is a Jew hater, wouldn't you?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jul 16 - 09:22 AM

"Jew hating apologists."
There you go again accusing Jews of Israeli crimes
Israel would have been tried for war crimes and human rights abuses long ago had it not been for the US veto
America has protected Israel in the same way Russai and Cina has protected Syria
You really must hate the Jews
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jul 16 - 09:08 AM

Like who? Name the Jew haters you know, you bloody coward, and prove that they are. Smears are easy. As you and your ally Keith know only too well, facts are a little harder to come by. The people of Lebanon and Gaza were attacked by order of the Israeli regime, not by bands of rampaging Jews doing their own thing. Hamas and Hezbollah have certainly carried out terrorist activities, but then so has the Israeli regime, in spades. Your problem and Keith's problem is that you condemn the one but not the other. You both need to recognise that millions of people in Lebanon and Gaza approve of Hamas and Hezbollah, not just for resisting Israel but also because they help to run the country, rather well in the case of Lebanon. Look it up.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 25 Jul 16 - 08:56 AM

Hamas and Hezbollah are Islamist terrorist groups except, of course, to Jew hating apologists.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jul 16 - 08:52 AM

"Except for Corbyn's embrace of Islamist terrorists as friends."
No he hasn't
Corbyn has realised that there are two side to the Palestinian question and has highlighted the need for recognising that
Terrorism is a handy label to hang on those you disagree with - I can remember the talk of Jewish terrorists blowing up the Star of David Hotel.
Acts of terrorism are now being committed on a regular basis by both sides - but of you don't recognise that being committed by Israel as Terrorism, do you?
"There is no "his side" for me"
Bloody nonsense - you even stated during the arguments of Israel rthat you were "just putting Israel's point of view"
Israels dreadful actions are disputed" "
See what I mean?
Israel's acts of human rights abuses, mass murder and terrorism were watched day after day throughot the murderous incursions - fully reported and documented
It became necessary for Israel to demand the abolition of the International criminal court in order to be tried for them.
You most certanily not "cetre right" - there are three of you on this foreum (nobody takes Bobad seriously) who hold the most extreme right wing views I have ever come across - some of your own statements would be subject to prosecution were they made off the internet.
Know thyself Keith.
You are certainly correct when you keep claiming to be "right" - you are as "right" as they come.
" A "serious issue" is "a major problem"
Then you will be able to tell us what that issue was.
One more time:
"How many Antisemites
Who are they - have they been expelled?
What exactly does that antisemitism take
Do you believe (alnog with Bobad, The Israeli Justice Minister, and the Israeli propaganda machine, that any criticism of Israel is antisemitic."
You didn't answer these questions whan foirst asked - I doubt if you will answer them now.
You really need to distinguish between a serious issue and an issue taken seriously
Of course it was taken seriously - it would have been irresponsible not to have done so - the end result - no major problem that was not to be found anywhere else in Britain.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 25 Jul 16 - 08:46 AM

Corbyn speaking of his friends Hamas and Hezbollah: YouTube

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jul 16 - 08:29 AM

Which he did not do, you smearing, cheating little liar.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Jul 16 - 08:28 AM

Going to share your figure yet gobad .......... no thought not

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 25 Jul 16 - 08:07 AM

careless language from a very few mostly junior members of the Labour Party.

Except for Corbyn's embrace of Islamist terrorists as friends.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jul 16 - 07:34 AM

No "his side" my arse. Every time we discuss Israel and you refuse to acknowledge even the slightest criticism of the regime, you tell us that you're only putting "Israel's side of the story." You certainly do have sides, Keith. This thread demonstrates that you are single-mindedly and obsessively taking sides against Labour by refusing to listen to the facts given to you and refusing to acknowledge the far greater havoc that the political side you support is wreaking on this country. You're "not taking sides" in the same way that Pontius Pilate didn't "take sides" against Jesus, you clown.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Jul 16 - 07:17 AM

"Israels dreadful actions are disputed" - By Israel

"All those accusations against the Tories have already been aired here, No need for me to repeat them. Nor did I challenge, deny or defend them" - difficult to defend the indefensible.

"I am centre right" - LOL Best quote of the week !!!!

I'll go back to my cricket and have a giggle.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 16 - 06:45 AM

Keith utters not a single word of criticism about the far worse outrages on his side whilst hectoring us about careless language from a very few mostly junior members of the Labour Party. I call that extreme hypocrisy. Shades of his refusal ever to criticise the Israeli regime no matter how dreadful their actions. Remember that next time he tells us that he's "centre-right."

There is no "his side" for me.
I am centre right.
Israel's "dreadful actions" are disputed.
All those accusations against Tories have already been aired here.
No need for me to repeat them.
Nor did I challenge, deny or defend them.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jul 16 - 06:27 AM

More than a claim, Jim - what about Eton Toryboy Zac Goldsmith's disgraceful racist smear campaigning in the London mayoral election? What about the extremely unsubtle appeals to people's lowest racist instincts by the out campaign? Cynical posh Tory Eton boys, along with their crypto-fascist ally Nigel Farage, who got everything wrong and who doomed the country to decades on the sidelines, all passing without comment from Keith (presumably he approves, that's why). Makes the Labour "antisemitism" allegations look like a dropped saucer at a tea party. You and I have both addressed the allegations seriously. Keith utters not a single word of criticism about the far worse outrages on his side whilst hectoring us about careless language from a very few mostly junior members of the Labour Party. I call that extreme hypocrisy. Shades of his refusal ever to criticise the Israeli regime no matter how dreadful their actions. Remember that next time he tells us that he's "centre-right."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 16 - 06:18 AM

Jim,
A little different from it being a major problem, as you indicated.

No. A "serious issue" is "a major problem" though I never said "major problem" anyway.

it would have been acted on with expulsions and referred to as "significant" - it wasn't,

A "serious issue" IS "significant" Jim.

The entire NEC and numerous high profile officials and Chakrabarti said there was a serious issue with antisemitism in the party.
Against that you denials just make you ridiculous.

I made nothing up

Yes you did.
You said,
"Some time ago, it was recognised that there was a problem of Islamophobia in the Tory Party and demands were made for an enquiry"

Entirely made up shit Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Jul 16 - 06:11 AM

We have been asking the same question of you professor.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 16 - 06:07 AM

Rag,
satisfaction of most people, you being the obvious exception.

Why do you say that?
I am quite satisfied thank you.
I am just arguing with people who claim there was never an issue in the first place.
They were wrong. There was.
I was right all along.

Accusations have often been made against Tories.
I have never challenged or denied any of them, so what is your point?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jul 16 - 06:01 AM

"Of course it was a minority Jim, but it was still a serious issue for the party."
And taken seriously by them
A little different from it being a major problem, as you indicated.
Bigotry or racisim in any form and to any degree is s serious problem to any party aspiring to be Socialist - it is against the whole philosophy of the movement, which is all encompassing and international, by its very nature.
If there had been a problem, as you suggested, it would have been acted on with expulsions and referred to as "significant" - it wasn't, as I have been point out all along and you have been contradicting.
So much for your being "right".
If you read the report, it is largely a matter of language usage (as your cut-'n-paste points out) - not discrimination against any particular racial or cultural group, not active prejudice - sloppy language.
Much of it stems from the rightful opposition to the policy of the Israeli regime.
By describing all opposition to their policy as 'Antisemitic' the Israelis have decided to blame 'The Jews' for their war crimes, human rights abuses and acts of terror.
If the Israeli Justice Minister can openly claim that all criticism to Israeli policy is "antisemitic' it is hardly surprising that people take her word for it and blame The Jews for criminal and inhuman acts by the Israeli regime.
Not too long ago a survey carried out in Britain suggested that one third of the population held and openly expressed racist and bigoted views.
In these circumstances, it is heartening and more than a little surprising that the "problem" of Antisemitism is as insignificant as it actually turned out to be - a very small molehill made into a very large mountain.
I made nothing up - there has always been a claim of Islamophobia in the conservative party, just as Antisemitism has always been the domain of the right, not the left.
You choose to deny it - now why am I not surprised!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Jul 16 - 05:30 AM

Should we have a peep at racism within the Conservative Party?

Conservative Racism


You may wish to note the question as to whether all these issues have ever been dealt with.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Jul 16 - 05:23 AM

The matter has been dealt with to the satisfaction of most people, you being the obvious exception.

Anything new ...................... no thought not.


Next for shaving !!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 16 - 05:04 AM

"for some years."
So not that promptly Rag.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 16 - 05:02 AM

Rag,

The issue has been dealt with promptly by the Labour Party, that was why the Chakrabati Report was commissioned and published.

Thank you for agreeing that there was an issue.
Chakrabarti,
"....concern that antisemitism has not been taken seriously enough
in the Labour Party and broader Left for some years."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 16 - 04:59 AM

Of course it was a minority Jim, but it was still a serious issue for the party.
not according to me, but according to the entire NEC, numerous senior Labour figures and the Chakrabarti report.
Your denials were proved false.

Some time ago, it was recognised that there was a problem of Islamophobia in the Tory Party and demands were made for an enquiry

No, you just made that up.
There were claims that the London mayoral campaign used Khan's religion against him, but that was strongly disputed.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Jul 16 - 04:54 AM

The issue has been dealt with promptly by the Labour Party, that was why the Chakrabati Report was commissioned and published.

It has also been covered on here.

Anything else.

I see Boris Johnson has been rebuked for blaming the Munich Shootings on Islamic Terrorists, the first of many occasions when he engaged mouth without first engaging brain I think.

I've said before I think he's been set up to fail, then Teresa May can get him out of politics altogether. Time alone will tell.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jul 16 - 04:29 AM

"So I was right and you were all wrong."
"of MINORITY A minority Keith - not a major problem, as you suggested
Some people really don't understand the difference between right and wrong - usually children
It seems some people don't understand the term MINORITY either
The report also listed a number of measures to deal with that MINORITY
Some time ago, it was recognised that there was a problem of Islamophobia in the Tory Party and demands were made for an enquiry
TORY ISLAMOPHOBIA
The Labour Party were pretty nifty in dealing with the MINORITY problem within their ranks - what's happening with your lot - anything?
Don't you think it should before it becomes a
NATIONWIDE PROBLEM
Lat's here it for the Tory Party's problems - your a great one for speaking up for the accused!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 16 - 03:57 AM

Yoyr case was that there was a serious problem - no problem was found - you were wrong

The entire NEC and numerous high profile officials said there was a serious issue with antisemitism in the party.
Against that you denials just make you ridiculous.

Page 1 of the Chakrabarti report,
"there is too much clear evidence (going back some years) of minority hateful or ignorant attitudes and
behaviours festering within a sometimes bitter incivility of discourse. This has no place in a modern
democratic socialist party that puts equality, inclusion and human rights at its heart. Moreover, I have
heard too many Jewish voices express concern that antisemitism has not been taken seriously enough
in the Labour Party and broader Left for some years.
An occasionally toxic atmosphere is in danger of shutting down free speech within the Party rather
than facilitating it, and is understandably utilised by its opponents."

So I was right and you were all wrong.
Now the issues are intimidation, misogyny and homophobia.
Whither the Labour Party?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 05:02 PM

Yep. A pathetic, obsessive, one-track minded defective personality. His lot have just wreaked ruin on this country for generations via, games, lies and racism and all he can do is nit-pick about a few unguarded remarks from a handful out of half a million Labour members, a handful who have been dealt with in any case. Very sad. Very very sad.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 04:24 PM

We've been through this half a dozen times.
If a policeman knowks on my door and says I've been accused of doing away with with my neigbour it's a serious issue - for me, for the policeman, for all concerned.
It will be treated seriously by me, by the authorities, by all concerned and if it is found to be true, action will be taken.
This has been found to have no basis nd the Labour everybody has moved on - that is Keioth's problem - he wanted it to be true and when it was found to be unsubstantiated, he moved on to something else.
It's what he dos.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 03:20 PM

Spot on, Jim. Straightforward, honest posting from you versus twisted, contorted, agenda-laden spin and smears from Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 03:11 PM

""The entire NEC recognises the seriousness of this issue .""
And you fail to recognise that any accuasation to any left (ish) political party is a serious issue - the seriousness lies in the accusation not the numbers of people who have been exposed as being Antisemitic -we've been through this
Simple test - how many people in the Labour Party have been discovered to be antisemitism in fact?
5 - 10 - 100 - 1000 -
If so, who are they.
So far, the charges of Antisemitism have been leveled at critics of Israel.
If this is not the case, what form does the Antisemitism take?
You said there is a serious problem - did the NEC cover it up when they decided that there was not a problem?
The two people who claim there is a significant number of party members who are Antisemites are right wing members of an Israeli propaganda organisation.
So:
How many Antisemites
Who are they - have they been expelled?
What exactly does that antisemitism take
Do you believe (alnog with Bobad, The Israeli Justice Minister, and the Israeli propaganda machine, that any criticism of Israel is antisemitic.
You are twisting words, dealing in half-truths and ignoring the fact that no significant problem was uncovered by the enquiry.
"That was my case all along."
Yoyr case was that there was a serious problem - no problem was found - you were wrong
You know you wwere wrone so you went and looked up something else and cae up with mysogyny
You are a right-wing, atrocity denying fanatic
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 02:49 PM

"Steve, as if anyone would defend racism in the party!"

Well why don't you bloody join it then. There was plenty of racism from your beloved Tories and UKIP (Boris, Gove and Nige) in the out campaign - "I'm centre-right" my arse. It was crypto-fascism and xenophobia being invoked...your crowd, Keith, unapologetic. My crowd are not having that stuff in our ranks thank you very much and we don't care if our fight against the very few bad apples goes public. It's called honesty. Look it up. It's a stranger to people like you.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 02:05 PM

Jim,
the tiny handful of possible cases does not add up to your claim that it was a major problem.

You are still in denial!
"The entire NEC recognises the seriousness of this issue ."

Steve, as if anyone would defend racism in the party!
Of course they all condemn it and claim to oppose it, but the NEC still said it was a "serious issue" for the party.

That was my case all along.
You denied it.
I was right.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 01:42 PM

Yes, well let me quote you some other snippets, Keith, to show how snippet-picking can be used (abused in your case) to show polar opposites. From the very same report:

Zero tolerance of anti-Semitism

Anti-Semitism has no place in the Labour Party and is contrary to everything we stand for. Jeremy introduced a new code of conduct for the party, which states:

"The Labour Party is an anti-racist party, committed to combating and campaigning against all forms of racism….Labour will not tolerate racism in any form inside or outside the party….Any behaviour or use of language which targets or intimidates members of ethnic or religious communities or incites racism, including anti-Semitism…or undermines Labour's ability to campaign against any form of racism, is unacceptable".

"...Many members of the NEC have backgrounds in fighting racism and inequality and are proud of Labour's traditional role in promoting equality and showing moral leadership on these issues. The NEC agreed that it is vital that Labour stands up for our values and our history as the party who fights for human rights and equality."

There now! Looks dead good now, doesn't it, Keith? Cor, who'd have believed it came from the same report that you are cherrypicking to smear Labour! Anyone can extract just the bits to suit their prejudices and that is exactly what you did and exactly what you do all the time. Dishonest, disreputable, busted, can't be trusted. That's you through and through.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 12:53 PM

"
Back then you all said that antisemitism was not a serious issue for Labour, and that I was making it all up."
You were
""The NEC are appalled by recent cases of anti-Semitic abuse."
Any antisemitism is apalling - the tiny handful of possible cases does not add up to your claim that it was a major problem.
You were not telling it as it was and an enquiry into the matter put the problem where it beloinged.
The truth is, you would have liked there to be a problem - you have yet to endorse the findings of the enquiry
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 12:46 PM

Back then you all said that antisemitism was not a serious issue for Labour, and that I was making it all up.

To prove you wrong I quoted, ""The NEC are appalled by recent cases of anti-Semitic abuse." and, "The entire NEC recognises the seriousness of this issue ."

That showed that you were all wrong and I was telling it how it was.
You were in denial, and I had it right.

Naz Shah now admits her antisemitism and ignorance.
You all supported her bile at the time.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 10:46 AM

"Never "discussed at length.""
Perhaps we believe it is of no significance
It has been put into context (far more important than a hastily grabbed cut 'n-paste) of what is happening in Britain which ahs been ignored by you
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 10:08 AM

The article was generally a constructive and harmonious piece of narrative which affirmed the party's robust position against discrimination. Keith plucked tiny bits out of it with the clear intention of communicating a sense of crisis which was completely absent from the article. It's what creationists and Jehovah's Witnesses do with the Bible. Like those people, Keith hopes we'll accept his spin and not bother to check. Same as he did in the Wheatcroft fiasco. Well he has another think coming.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 10:06 AM

A two month old article that has been quoted by me and ignored by all of you.
Never "discussed at length."
Not by any of you.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 09:56 AM

A two month old article that has already been discussed at length.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 09:46 AM

Rag,
You have already cited these two cases professors, more than once I think.

Yes, but some of you appeared to have forgotten them.
I did not quote out of context then or now Steve.
What a silly accusation Steve. So easy to refute by just linking to the article itself.
http://labourlist.org/2016/05/alice-perrys-nec-report-corbyn-fighting-prejudice-and-listening-to-voters-online/
Sorry Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 09:20 AM

Bobad
No answer
re you claiming that all criticism of Israel is Antisemitic?
Don't expect an answer to this one either
"BBC 18 July,"
What's your point in putting the same quotes up over and over again
Where is your evidence of a serious problem recognised by "a large number of Labour Party members?"
Don't expect an answer to this one either
A matcehd pair of Trolls
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 09:04 AM

I'll say he's struggling. Wallowing in a mire of his own making of the obsessive need to blacken the Labour Party. Of course, misrepresentation and downright dishonesty, as ever, are the main weapons in his armoury. Still, with fiends like bobad, who needs enemas?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 08:48 AM

You have already cited these two cases professors, more than once I think.

Do you have anything else or are you struggling.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 08:32 AM

Good work Keith, the apologists are drowning in the evidence and becoming more and more desperate in their denial even as their party is coming clean.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 08:21 AM

You have completely misrepresented Alice Perry's report. You must think we're all so bloody stupid that we'll accept the word of Keith and not check the facts for ourselves. Well, Keith, we can read. The snippet you quoted above is completely out of context and you should be ashamed of yourself. You see, Keith, your reputation regarding this kind of shabby behaviour is such that you are always going to be checked up on.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 08:12 AM

BBC 18 July,
"The MP (Naz Shah)said that when she looked back she thought "how stupid I was and how ignorant I was".
"The truth is that some of the stuff I have since looked at and understood, I didn't know at the time," she said.
Ms Shah said she now understood the connotations involved in the words she used.
"The language I used was anti-Semitic, it was offensive," she said. "What I did was I hurt people and the language that was the clear anti-Semitic language, which I didn't know at the time, was when I said, 'The Jews are rallying.'"

"Ms Shah said she had been on a learning journey in recent months and had received "amazing compassion" from the Jewish community.
"I didn't get anti-Semitism as racism," said Ms Shah. "I had never come across it. I think what I had was an ignorance." "
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-36802075

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 08:03 AM

"Alice Perry's NEC report: Corbyn, fighting prejudice and listening to voters online
23RD MAY, 2016 3:22 PM"

"The NEC are appalled by recent cases of anti-Semitic abuse. Anti-Semitism has no place in the Labour Party and is contrary to everything we stand for."

" The entire NEC recognises the seriousness of this issue and is committed to addressing all the issues raised by these inquiries. "
http://labourlist.org/2016/05/alice-perrys-nec-report-corbyn-fighting-prejudice-and-listening-to-voters-online/

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 08:03 AM

"So, it's the fault of Jews that there's anti-semitism in the party."
There is antisemitism everywhere - the Israelis count any criticism of their policy as Antisemitism. as you do.
I defy you to provide one attack on the Jewish people on this forum, but every critiscism of Israel is, to you, Antisemitic.
I will donate £1000 to any organisation you name if you can produce an attack I have made on the Jewish people - you will find none, but you constantly accuse me, and all critics of Israel of being antisemitic
This is what identifies you as a cowardly troll.
The only Antisemite on Mudcat is you, who had Identified all crimes committed by Israel as "antisemitic".
So far, accusations of "antisemitism" in the Labour Party have overwhelmingly been related to criticism of Israel.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 07:56 AM

"So, it's the fault of Jews that there's anti-semitism in the party. I get it now, thanks for clearing that up."

Let me rephrase this for you, you twisting and turning little cheat. It's the fault of pro-Israel activists that there is a completely fake brouhaha over alleged antisemitism, which is actually nothing of the kind, in the party. You don't understand what people say in these threads and you are completely clueless as to what antisemitism is. Perhaps, unlike me, you haven't spent half your life fighting antisemitism and racism in schools and in trade unions. One of my best mates was killed fighting racism and he would have wiped the floor with scurrilous, wrong-headed, dishonest little brats like you. Jim's right. You are one of the most antisemitic people on this forum by a country mile.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 07:45 AM

The reality, Keith, is that the vast, overwhelming majority of the half-million-plus members of Labour are NOT antisemitic, NOT misogynistic, NOT bullies and NOT rapists. That's real-world reality, not Keith-reality. If you don't agree, give me a list of all those Labour members who have been found guilty of any of the above. Smearing, the favourite tactic of disreputable people such as yourself, is easy. Hard facts are a little more inconvenient of access, eh, Keith? Some come on. Name the names of the proven guilty. Their lawyers may be watching you. Piss or get off the pot just for once.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 07:43 AM

So, it's the fault of Jews that there's anti-semitism in the party. I get it now, thanks for clearing that up.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 07:25 AM

"No-one could accuse you of losing your grip on reality!"
And nobody can accuse you of responding to evidence with evidence of your own
Israel is spending millions on propaganda at the present in order to defend its ongoing human rights abuses and war crimes.
Its justice minister has described all criticism of Israel as "antisemitic"
Israel's modern history is scattered with the bodies of innocent civilians murdered by Israeli forces.
When are you going to respond to any of these, or are you just going to " only put Israel's case" (unquote).
You have been given the context of the Labour Party's problems, yet you still dredge up the same-old, same-old.
You claimed lots of people who were concerned about supposed Antisemitism in the Labour Party you came up with two pro- Israeli activists -the internal enquiry found none.
Respond to facts Keith, stop using cut-'n-pastes
There is a left/right struggle going on at present =- you have chosen your side - guess which one!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 06:29 AM

Bet he puts milk in his tea BEFORE the boiling water.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 06:26 AM

Guardian/Observer today,
" The root cause of the party's rolling crises is as easy to identify as a solution to its agony is hard to find. Labour has a leader who has totally lost the confidence of his colleagues in parliament. They fear that he is taking them on a trajectory that will end with the party's worst election collapse since the 1930s. The MPs do not have the backing of a large chunk of the party selectorate that picks the leader. Much of that selectorate is wildly unrepresentative of the voters that Labour must persuade if the party is to survive as a plausible opposition, never mind become a viable competitor for power."
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/24/jeremy-corbyn-labour-leadership-mutiny-desperation

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 06:19 AM

BBC,
The Wallasey Constituency Labour Party group (CLP) has been suspended following complaints of bullying and intimidation.
The Labour Party has launched an investigation into the allegations in former Labour leadership contender Angela Eagle's constituency.
The Wallasey MP said "bullying, intimidation, misogyny and homophobia have no place in the Labour Party".
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-36848945

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 06:19 AM

He also keeps his unknown twin sister as an unpaid skivvy, she has to sleep in a box in the shed AND he's cruel to KITTENS !!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 06:14 AM

what's happening in the Labour party is a combination of a dirty tricks campaign by Israel to defend its human rights abuses, and a right wing coup by Labour party members.

Sure Jim.
No-one could accuse you of losing your grip on reality!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 06:10 AM


How can confessions come from you when you're not even in it!

They don't come from me.
I just quoted Labour people, including 44 Labour women MPs.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 06:08 AM

"You two are losing your grip on reality if you deny that Labour is in a chaotic crisis."
British politics is in chaos following Brexit - what's happening in the Labour party is a combination of a dirty tricks campaign by Israel to defend its human rights abuses, and a right wing coup by Labour party members.
The Tories have lost a P.M. and the new one has administers a 'night of the long knives', splitting that party down the middle.
The economy has taken a severe whipping, as was forecast by economists and the country can now look forward to a long period of instability.
You first jum,med on the Israeli bandwagon, claiming a major problem of Antisemitism within Labour, made up a few facts about "great concern by large numbers of members, failed miserably and found another dead-horse to flog with the rightist claim of misogyny.
Just waiting to hear of the hoards of Labour members who are greatly concerned about the unstoppable tide of woman-hating within its ranks.
With you, when one bus has gone, there'll always be another one along in a minute.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 06:06 AM

Of course they are Steve.

Turn on BBC News Channel and see what the main story of the day is.
Did you see McDonald on Marr?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 05:10 AM

Seems now that MI5 are actually nobbling him as well.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 05:02 AM

Oh I forgot to mention that he's also rumoured to be a secret agent for MI5, the CIA and the KBG !!!!! and he pulls pints in a pub in Eccles on a weekend and doesn't pay tax on his earnings.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 04:30 AM

You've missed a bit Keith, what about Corbyn personally ordering thousands of T shirts for 30p each and then selling them for £10 putting £9.70 into his own pocket and this after he had reduced the workers food down from just gruel to bread and water. Rumour has it he actually walks round the sweatshop with a huge whip lashing out at those he thought were not working hard enough. His next plan is to build chimneys so he can send children up them, and a treadmill for the old folks. You'd better watch out he hates Christians and Buddhists and Baptists and Jews, Jesuits, Jains, Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, Zoroastrians, pagans and Jedi although I believe he has a soft spot for Shinto.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 04:28 AM

How can confessions come from you when you're not even in it! You are being used as an obsessive channel for relatively minor indiscretions by a handful or two of over half a million members whilst ignoring the catastrophic shenanigans of your favoured Tory and UKIP racists and liars. How clever of you to define yourself in that way.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 04:26 AM

Are you sure it is just me, the BBC, the Guardian and every other agency including Labour List making it up?

Not making things up, I would say, but putting as negative a spin on everything as possible. For example, I am told there is an article in the Daily Mail on Sunday calling Corbyn a hypocrite for having T-shirts with a slogan on sale for his campaign 'where the workers are only paid 30p an hour' which he has previously criticized.

I admit that's all probably true. But I follow it by asking do you know anywhere in the world people who make T-shirts are paid the UK Living wage? I doubt they exist, because 'the capitalist system' would put them out of business pretty quickly through competition. So either you never wear or sell T-shirts at all (or indeed most other clothing), or you have little choice. And if that is the case, is criticising it hypocritical? I don't think so.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 04:07 AM

You two are losing your grip on reality if you deny that Labour is in a chaotic crisis.
Are you sure it is just me, the BBC, the Guardian and every other agency including Labour List making it up?

Confessions of antisemitism, accusations of misogyny and intimidation are coming from within Labour, not from me.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 12:52 PM

What !!! Criticise the establishment !! Keith !!

Good god he`d have to spend weeks on his knees, bowing and scraping and begging forgiveness from his "betters" and probably saying a prayer or fifteen into the bargain.

I will say this for him though, he`s not quite as beholden to his "masters" as Teribus is although it is close.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 12:05 PM

Raggytash, his contributions here, if you can call them that, are nothing more than a one-track minded campaign to blacken the Labour Party at what he sees as every available opportunity. In the meantime, Tory incompetence, bungling, miscalculating and lies to the people of this country have precipitated what will probably be the biggest disaster for this country in any of our lifetimes. Eton Toryboy games have sunk the ship. Note that he has bugger all to say about that.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 11:46 AM

"There is no-one worth voting for at the moment"
It's been like they with me for a long time Stu - I haven't voted in a British election since the advent of Blair's New Labour.
I really believe Corbyn might make a difference and would be tempted to vote for him if we still lived in the U.K.
Brexit is going to further deterioration of living standards for ordinary families; this surely has to mean people will be looking for someone who is going improve their lives with more than the rhetoric Johnson, Farrage, et al are offering.
Though I have always voted Labour, my politics lead me to believe that parliamentary democracy (sic) is a non-starter anyway - you just select the best of a bad bunch to cast your vote for, not ideal, nor particularly principled, but better than waiting around to say "I told you so".
I used to argue with my old man about this interminably - he always said, vote as left as you can.
We do have a slightly better alternative in Ireland with P.R. - it's been interesting to see the establishment parties backing away from repressive policies because of the way our votes count a little more than they do in the U.K.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 11:44 AM

Your contributions here are just one persons fantasy.

No.
They are the expressed views of most senior Labour figures.

From that Labour List piece,
""The truth is many of the people who are heaping abuse on people are Jeremy's supporters. It is just a fact that it is Jeremy's side of the argument that is engaging in this great volume of abuse."

One left wing group today said that they would be pulling support for an NEC candidate in future after she oversaw the suspension of one CLP (constituency Labour Party) after reports of intimidation at a meeting."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 11:39 AM

Ha, ha, ha, brilliant professor.


Your contributions here are just one persons fantasy.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 11:38 AM

Headline in Labour List yesterday,

"Senior Labour figures air fresh concerns over abuse in the party."

http://labourlist.org/2016/07/senior-labour-figures-in-row-over-level-of-abuse-in-the-party/

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 11:29 AM

Rag,
you could also refer to the article directly above it that refers to M15 using "dark practices" to discredit Corbyn.

That is just one person's (McCluskey's) fantasy/conspiracy theory.
The piece I quoted (just google a bit of text, it was only yesterday) was an open letter from forty female Labour MPs to Corbyn.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Stu
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 11:12 AM

Jim - I agree with all of that, but can't see how Labour can continue anyway. The big drift to UKIP and the right has proved that it's not left or right that matters to people, it's that they vote for the people that they believe understand them and will represent their interests in the face of the establishment and big business. The fact that no-one actually does (the Brexiteers were liars after all, and have pissed off anyway) mean they will vote for the person that plays that part, such as Farage and Johnson and however unpleasant the views and concise of that person.

Labour must change, but it truly does't have a clue and I wouldn't vote for them. There is no-one worth voting for at the moment.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 10:36 AM

Great piece, Jim. Keith and the cheat ought to be forced to write it out a hundred times.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 09:57 AM

"Why would they? They're winning."
Sorry - badly worded.
I don't believe the Labour Party vcan survive another period in the hands of the right wing - the damage done by 'New Labour' is probably irreparable as it is, more of the same would just about finish the party.
Fine for career politicians - it doesn't matter one way or the other which party they belong to, but it does to the rest of us.
The indications are that, with May, we have another Thatcher - different technique maybe, but the end result is the same.
Boris Johnson as foreign minister, for crying out loud - and the possibility of Trump in the White House
'Beam me up Scotty!!!'
Right wing Labour isn't going to do anything to rock that particular love-boat.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Stu
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 09:20 AM

"How about the right changing and giving the British people an alternative."

Why would they? They're winning.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 08:37 AM

"Repeat that to yourself whilst looking in a mirror."

I don't talk to my mirror image. There's so much to admire and I find its best done in silence.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 08:33 AM

All this appears to be an ectension of the Labour right to smear Corbyn, which started with attempts to make the Labour Party Ansisemitic
ANTISEMITISM SMEARS AGAINST LABOUR
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 08:16 AM

Your obsession is very amusing

Repeat that to yourself whilst looking in a mirror.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 07:47 AM

Keep going, Keith. Your obsession is very amusing. Have a little break and tell us instead about how that incompetent bungler Cameron went begging to Angela Merkel the week before the referendum to try to get exemptions on free movement when he realised that the out campaign had him by short and curlies over immigration and about how Boris Johnson dearly wanted his out campaign to fail so as to leave call-me-Dave damaged but not destroyed. Two blithering miscalculating idiots have wrecked the future of this country and all you can do is try to bloat some non-stories about Labour. You are a bloody sad case, you are.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 07:24 AM

Another cut and paste, why not link to the article so that everyone can read it in full rather than your particular selection of it.

While you're about it you could also refer to the article directly above it that refers to M15 using "dark practices" to discredit Corbyn.


Link

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 07:03 AM

Guardian, 18 hours ago,

Jeremy Corbyn has been plunged into another row over bullying within the Labour party after more than 40 of his female MPs signed a letter calling for him to do more to combat "an extremely worrying trend of escalating abuse and hostility".

Earlier on Friday Corbyn was obliged to deny that he had sought to intimidate another of his MPs by threatening to telephone the man's father to seek his intervention in a row.

The open letter addressed to Corbyn, tweeted by the Dewsbury MP Paula Sherriff and signed by her and 43 colleagues, condemns the Labour leader for what they call an inadequate response to threats and demonstrations by groups who support him in his battle with a rebellious parliamentary party.

It expresses alarm that the shadow chancellor, John McDonnell, and other shadow ministers have addressed rallies where demonstrations outside MPs' offices or bullying at constituency Labour party meetings have been "actively encouraged or quietly condoned".

The strongly worded letter says MPs have experienced rape threats, death threats and other incidents, amid a climate of worry following the murder of the Labour MP Jo Cox in June. It adds that female and non-white MPs have been "disproportionately affected" by the abuse.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 07:00 AM

"It's what I said Jim! I am full of shit."
If you say so - don't strike me that way.
"There is clearly a problem with anti-semitism and misogyny, "
No more than anywhere else and all you efforts to show there is any have fallen apart - there is no evidence
"The left needs to change, and although it needs thinkers like Corbyn "
How about the right changing and giving the British people an alternative.
To elect the present Labour party is to get more of the same.
The Irish Labour Party tied itself to the established parties in order to get a toe - hold in parliament - when those Parties failed to deliver the goods The Labour party virtually disappeared as a credible representative of the Irish people.
Can anybody honestly claim that Britain needs more war criminals like Blair and bumblers like Brown.
Edwina the Eagle, for god's sake - who next?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 06:59 AM

Just for the record Stu I think Corbyn worked as a journalist for small paper for a time and he did spend two years doing Voluntary work in overseas.

Voluntary work can certainly open one's eyes, I can think of various people of here who would benefit from it.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Stu
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 06:43 AM

"to take your word for it if that's really what you're saying"

It's what I said Jim! I am full of shit.


The issue with the Labour party is they are unelectable. Corbyn lives as much in a political bubble as Cameron did but rather than being an Eton toff is a sour old leftie. Like Cameron and his Notting Hill muckers he has no experience of life at the sharp end, has always been involved in unions or politics rather than earning a crust and is as equally unfit to lead as Cameron was. Thinking about it, even Cameron did a stint as a PR man so perhaps he had more life experience.

The left needs to change, and although it needs thinkers like Corbyn it still has to adjust to the global nature of business and politics of the 21st Century. Most of the workforce is not unionised, how does the left re-connect with the millions of self-employed for example? It does not recognised the importance of social media or understand how people connect with each other using our fast-changing technology. Finally, it needs to rediscover it's radical heritage and adapt that spirit to the modern age.

I can't see that happening in the Labour party now, and they have let us down horribly during the EU ref campaign, and are failing utterly to hold the government to account during a time we need an effective opposition in parliament. They have become the epitome of a myopic, narcissistic and out of touch political clusterfuck with nothing to offer the ordinary working person.

Oh, and why are they so against a woman leader? Hmmm.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 06:36 AM

Owen Smith, Left Wing Labour MP and leadership contender,
"I think Jeremy should take a little more responsibility for what's going on in the Labour party. After all, we didn't have this sort of abuse and intolerance, misogyny, antisemitism in the Labour party before Jeremy Corbyn became the leader.

"It's now become something that is being talked about on television, on radio, and in newspapers. And Angela is right, it has been effectively licenced within the last nine months."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 06:26 AM

I do not hate labour and was a Labour voter.
There is clearly a problem with anti-semitism and misogyny, but mostly at the hard left end.

No need to scour the press, and Naz Shah was not appolgising to the Commons, but in a R4 interview.
Report here.http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-36802075

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 06:13 AM

Stop lying, Keith. Nowhere has my case been that there is "no issue" and that is all over this thread. You are thoroughly obsessed with painting the Labour Party as black as possible, scouring the press for any snippet you can find that a few members have said less than wise things. Get a life.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 06:07 AM

"I have just quoted prominent and lifelong Labour Party people "
Been here before Keith - selective quotes from interested parties prove nuffin'.
Better get some new champions for you crusade - supporters of a right-wing coup wouldn't stand up in court- just as your supporters of the Israeli regime didn't.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 05:30 AM

The article refers to an apology to the House of Commons from just ONE member of the Labour Party from a shared FACEBOOK post she made BEFORE she became a sitting member of the house. Uncomfortably, certainly, regrettable, certainly, earth-shattering ........... er ..... bit of a storm in a tea cup really. Not surprising given the source.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 04:47 AM

Your case has been that there is no issue.
I have just quoted prominent and lifelong Labour Party people who know that there is.
If you have anything similar on CofE or other parties, do share it.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 03:37 AM

When wuill you get it into your Antisemitic head Bobad that blamiing Israel for anything is not Antisemitic, by definition - Israel is not the Jewish people, it does nor represent the Jewish people, its actions are not those of the Jewish people, on the contrary, the way various regimes have behaved down the decades have acted against the interests of the Jewish people.
Israel, not the Jews facilitated the massacre of 3,5000 unarmed refugees at Sabra/Shatila.
Israel, not the Jews, confiscated huge areas of Palestinian land and have placed the region on a permanent war footing.
Israel, not the Jews, used chemical and anti-personnel weapons on civilians, destroyed homes, hospitals and schools, brought about many thousands of deaths and have ruined the lives of the Palestinian people with their various incursions.
It was Israel, not the Jews, who tried to turn Apartheid South Africa into a nuclear power.
Some of the greatest critics of Israel policy are Jews - teh Israelis have described them as "self-hating Jews" - in doing so, Israel is waging war on large numbers of Jewish people.
It is the height of Antisemitism to lay these crimes at the door of the Jewish people.
People like you have painted a target on every Jew on the planet - their blood is on your hands.
There is far too much Antisemitism on this planet already without your adding to it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 07:40 PM

As a Labour Party member I take great comfort from the fact that the Tory Party, the Catholic Church, the Church of England and UKIP are are far more infested with antisemitism than my party. Right-wing hypocrites will, of course, always look for the tiniest snippet of the kind of "evidence" jumped on by the Daily Mail and the Murdoch Daily Liar papers that they love to go to town on. Tabloid press and your tabloid mentality, Keith. In bobad's case, I doubt whether be can even read a paper at all, and I mean both of him.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 06:12 PM

We would all take some additional comfort, Boo, if you were to crawl back under your own particular rock.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 03:46 PM

Supporters of the Labour party may take some small comfort from the fact that theirs is not the only party infected with anti-semites. This one from the Liberal Democrat party just crawled out from under a rock: British lawmaker blames Israel for Islamic terror

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 03:09 PM

"Keith does not need a stick, the labour Party does a very good job of beating up on itself."
Only by embracing right-wing policies - look at what happened to the Irish Labour Party - gone, and never called me mother.
RIGHT WING DIRTY TRICKS
Keith does need a stick, like Voltaire's quote on God, "If labour didn't have problems, it would be necessary to invent some" - and he has.
One thing is certain, Blair's 'New Labour' has been an abysmal failure - Labour doesn't need a "strong" leadership, it needs principles and a strong commitment to them - a return to its Socialist base.
It's worst problem is it is virtually indistinguishable from the Tories.
looking as Siddiqu's gripes, her main bone of contention appears to be that her flavour of the month, Edna the Eagle, is out of the running.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 02:26 PM

Keith does not need a stick, the labour Party does a very good job of beating up on itself.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 02:09 PM

Tulip Sudiq is part of the attempted right-wing coup to overthrow Corbyn and her main objective is to get women elected, regardless of ability apparently.
Reading through her statement, her accusations are at the "another woman MP tells me" level.
There is no argument that sexism exists throughout politics, irrespective of parties - Westminster has always been referred to as a "Men's Club".
Sadiq's accusations od sexism come with about as much evidence as did accusations of antisemitism - very little.
Another stick for Keith to beat the Laboutr Party, it would appear
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 01:53 PM

Oh, go away, Keith. It's clear that you get off believing that your hated Labour Party is nobbut a raving bunch of antisemites. Of course, there's no antisemitism in your Tory Party or the Church of England, is there? Hypocrite.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 01:03 PM

"The online abuse is getting worse," says Tulip Siddiq, MP for Hampstead and Kilburn. "There hasn't been enough condemnation from the top about that behaviour. It should be zero tolerance of abuse — whether it's misogyny or anti-Semitism or any other form — and it needs to be said repeatedly, not just once in a while."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 12:53 PM

"Not only do you not know that, your powers will not work on me old man."
Old certainly, not powerful.
I argue as I argue, you find problems with what I say, feel free to challenge them, but I would prefer it if all arguments we had were conducted in a polite and respectful manner.
I was pointing out what I believe to be a contradiction in your approach - you object to some people arguing but not others.
I don't know if you are full of shit, but am happy to take your word for it if that's really what you're saying
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Stu
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 12:43 PM

It's the debating style rather than the content. I love the rough and tumble but it always ends with the same people yelling at each other.

I'm undoubtedly wrong virtually all the time. I am full of shit.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 12:28 PM

Then, Stu, you must be wrong too, as you appear to agree with us in almost everything you post. 😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Stu
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 12:01 PM

"Didn't seem to bother you too much then"

Not only do you not know that, your powers will not work on me old man.

For the record, I think you're all wrong, but there you go.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 11:49 AM

Keith - there's not enough time in a day to wait for this thread to crawl open.
Even if you click "Descending" order.. still too bloody slow...

Please use the more recent shorter threads for your labour bashing....


THIS IS A NOTIFICATION ONLY MESSAGE. PLEASE DO NOT RESPOND. YOU ARE A VALUED CUSTOMER. HAVE A NICE DAY....

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 11:02 AM

"Oh bloody hell, they're all on this thread too."
With respect Stu - some of us have been subjected to a fair amount of abuse from one individual recently, as I'm sure you are aware.
Didn't seem to bother you too much then
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Stu
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 09:10 AM

Oh bloody hell, they're all on this thread too.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 08:35 AM

Sod off, Keith, you old bore.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 04:47 AM

Heading from The Independent, 18th July,

"'I didn't get anti-Semitism as racism,' says Labour MP Naz Shah
'The language that I used was anti-Semitic, it was offensive. What I did was I hurt people'"
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/anti-semitism-racism-labour-mp-naz-shah-ken-livingstone-bradford-west-a7142691.html

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 02:40 PM

I tried doing that a few times before, but wasn't too reliable either.
Besides which, I habitually save complete threads for offline reference.

Anyway, Bonzo has just provided a new thread that should serve our purposes...???

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 02:14 PM

Pfr, you only have to open the last page of any thread.
Hit the "d."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 12:22 PM

Oh Jesus, don't ask him to do that.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 11:58 AM

Keith - did you have to dig up this thread... it's too big and takes far too long to open and post to.
Could you please start a new one.....

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 04:41 AM

"Conservative Prime Minister set to resign."
Don't bring up inconvenient facts otherwise you'll invoke teh screams of "thread drift".
This squalid referendum had thrown Bitish politics into chaos
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 04:24 AM

Conservative Prime Minister set to resign.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 04:19 AM

Whither now?
Benn sacked and much of shadow cabinet set to resign!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jun 16 - 01:06 PM

Keith
You have made mine and other people's lives a misry on this forum with your obsessive desire to "win".
I am not proud of feeling satisfaction in turning the tables, but there it is - we all have ourr weaknesses.
Obsession is when you insist on repeating yourself over and over again, long after your questions have been rsponded to.
Obsession is in attempting to prove wrong something that is self evident and log accepted.
Obsession is in believing you are right and everbody is wrong or "ignoramuses" i=or muppets, then going off to complain e=hwen somebody responds to you in kind.
And above all, obsession is when you spend huge amounts of effort in trying to prove that you know more than the rest of the world.
I suggest you leave this while you are only this far behind - believe me, it can get worse.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jun 16 - 12:30 PM

You sad, obsessed man.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jun 16 - 12:07 PM

"I have not and will not engage with you about Israel on this thread."
What on earth mekes you think I post so that you will "engage with me",
I'd rather yI was allowed to have my say without your obsessive support for a terrorist state and your attempts to silence ideas that don't fit your particular agenda, if it's all the same with you?
"Most people would prefer we engaged privately by PM, which would be my preference too."
Have you had a quick secret referendum as to what most people would prefer as you did with The Labour Party when you claimed what "many people" thought - "Many have been accused of antisemitism by other Labour members"
The fact is that you would prefer to be humiliated by PM rather than in public - no thanks - I prefer to get my kicks out of you where people can view it.
You are really a bit of a joke, aren't you - transparent too!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jun 16 - 11:29 AM

Pfr,
Conspiracy theorists and the more sensible among us can read much about this on google.

I found nothing recent except on far-right antisemitic sites.
Can you suggest anything?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jun 16 - 11:17 AM

I have not and will not engage with you about Israel on this thread.
There are many, many threads on Israel already, or you could start yet another.
Most people would prefer we engaged privately by PM, which would be my preference too.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jun 16 - 10:57 AM

" but no-one is going to engage with you"
You have, and that's enough for me - when has being engaged with ever bothered you - nobody takes yo seriously other than the couple who are as baty as you are.
"Israel is far from the worst regime in the world"
That's a moot point now - the last thing the world wants wt present is a religion driven regime with nuclear capability attempting to set up an apartheid state in, of all places, The Middle East.
That's like going into an oil refinery with a flame thrower.
My "obsession" dates back to my long friendships with Jewish people, especially the Holocaust Survivor (whose daughter I nearly married) who was the first I ever heard to describe Israel as a Fascist State - she convinced me with five words - "Never again, not for anyone".
Obsession is not when you care for the people you love - it's when you defend mass murder and human rights abuses to the extent you do.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Jun 16 - 10:41 AM

Supporters of [the alleged failing state] Israel's Government regime,
may care to ponder the alleged extent of infiltration by hardline extremist Russian Jewish immigrants;
and the alleged takeover of Israeli criminal underground by the Russian Mafia.
Consider also the alleged lax financial laws that make Israel a safe haven for Russian mafia money laundering and corruption at highest state levels...

Conspiracy theorists and the more sensible among us can read much about this on google..

Sources vary from credible objective well informed commentators.. to vilest white supremacist antisemitic bloggers..

If even some of that is true.. How long before Israel becomes an out of control rogue state....??????

If the other 3/4 of me was also jewish, I'd still be thinking twice about pledging unconditional support to the Israeli regime...

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jun 16 - 10:28 AM

"It is not a crime to express antisemitic views, but it is unacceptable to the party."
The question of guilt is not necessary a legal term
as you will know, particuklarly as you haVE USED THE TERM HERE
"The group is seeking to change Labour's rules to make it easier to expel and ban members for life if they are found guilty of anti-Semitism."".
yOU rEALLY ARE NOT VERY GOOD AT THIS, ARE YOU?
jIM cARROLL

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jun 16 - 10:05 AM

It would be improper not to have suspended people who have been accused - nobody has been found guilty of those accusations.

Guilty?
It is not a crime to express antisemitic views, but it is unacceptable to the party.
In the opinion of the NEC and prominent members, antisemitic views HAVE been expressed.
The enquiry may or may not agree.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jun 16 - 09:58 AM

Jim, you can not be stopped in your deranged attempts to bring Israel in to this, but no-one is going to engage with you.
You will just be ranting to yourself like the mad old man you become when something starts you off on Israel.

Israel is far from the worst regime in the world, so your obsession is completely irrational.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Jun 16 - 09:20 AM

bugger.... thank you very much mates...

.. it's going to be nagging me now for the rest of the afternoon..

which mudcatter is most like Blakey off "On The Buses"..???


.. it'd most likely have to be one of the mods...????? 😜

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jun 16 - 08:31 AM

"Our very own little Wolfie Smith on steroids."
Missed a bit.
I never had a lot of time for Wolfie Smith - far too close to the pseudo-revolutionaries of the 60s who believed they could beat capitalism to death with bunches of flowers.
I'm far happier being compared to him than the to the caricatures you pair present - you in your reincarnation of flag-wagging Captain Mainwearing, and Keith's weird combination of hand-wringing Uriah Heep and a latter-day Alf Garnett - neither of you need artificial stimulants; you have the roles off to perfection already.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jun 16 - 07:06 AM

"What a truly bizarre thing to say on a public forum"
When anybody attempts to suppress discussion as you two have, it is the only thing to say
"Currently Israel is not interfering with anything."
Currently Israel is spending billions on a propaganda campaign to make discussing its atrocities "Antisemitic" and the attacks on the Labour Party are very much a part of that campaign, as shown by the fact that the only people claiming Antisemitism to be a problem in the Labour Party are directly linked to active Pro-Israeli propaganda organisations.
To save Keith repeating himself - the problem is that accusations have ben made, not Antisemitism - whoops - you have already said what he was going to say.
It would be improper not to have suspended people who have been accused - nobody has been found guilty of those accusations.
Look back more closely.
Keith never asks for opinions - he demands confirmation that he is rught and goes ballistic when he never gets it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Jun 16 - 06:45 AM

Jim Carroll - 16 Jun 16 - 03:52 AM

"Will you mind your own business."

What a truly bizarre thing to say on a public forum - shows just how much grip on reality the poster has. Correct me if I am wrong but on another current thread weren't you condemning people for posting off topic? What a weather vane your mind, or what passes for it, must be.

As far as I am concerned, this is about how Israel is interfering in British politics in order to offset its own behavior

Currently Israel is not interfering with anything.

if Keith had wished to only include opinions that coincided with his own when he opened this thread, he should have listed what we can and cannot discuss on it

Looking back at the OP Keith A called attention to the actions and comments made by the National Executive Committee of the Labour Party and the fact that they saw fit to suspend 50 members of their party for alleged anti-Semitism. He then asked for comments. Another example of you jumping in to comment on what you THOUGHT had been said - NOT what actually had been posted.

Our very own little Wolfie Smith on steroids.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jun 16 - 06:00 AM

"I am not trying to censor discussion."
That is exactly what you and your mate are doing
Both of you appear totally incapable of grasping what you are doing.
I had no intention of discussing Sabra Shatila - I used it as an example of the nature of the regime that has generated accusations against the Labour party and also as an example of something that, if discussed critically, becomes Antisemitism to Israel and her supporters.
You have managed to turn the spotlight directly on it enabling me to detail exactly what happened - many thanks for that opportunity, I will take up your generous offered opportunity and repeat the sequence of events:
"Israel facilitated, armed the killers, provided them with transport, opened the gates, provided flares so the massacre could go on for three nights, turned refugees trying to escape back into the camp, drove the killers to the airport, provided bulldozers to bury the bodies, then built a stadium over the mass graves so nobody could aver calculate how many were murdered (3,500 unarmed refugees)- have I forgotten anything oh yas, nearly forgot, then elected the officer responsible Prime Minister "
Had you just let it pass, I would have moved on, having made my point but you couldn't resist appeasing yet another Israeli atrocity.
Your "challenge" of this atrocity was and remains "Israel says they didn't do it" - you have even been forced to admit that you are just putting their point of view..
Discussing it with people like you is as pointless as it gets - the fcacts are now fully accepted and we all know in advance what your arguments are - "Israel is innocent".
I will raise this matter whenever I feel it appropriate to do so - that's what democracy is all about.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jun 16 - 05:25 AM

I am not trying to censor discussion.
I would be very happy to challenge all that ludicrous propaganda again, just not on a thread about the Labour Party.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jun 16 - 04:39 AM

"Israel's version of events is very different."
Why wouldn't it be - what criminal ever readily admits its guilt?
"I have put it to you many times, but you just dismiss it, preferring propaganda."
Eye witness accounts from nurses and soldiers are propaganda - why exactly?
Do not be stupid.
The facts of Sabra Shatila have long been researched, established and fully documented - your behaviour is identical to that of a Holocaust denier.
"This thread is about the Labour Party and antisemitism."
Exactly - and in order to discuss it we need to examine what kind of   "antisemitism" the Labour Party is being accused of and the nature of the people who have inspired those accusations.
The fact that you are now running around like a headless chicken trying to attempt to censor that discussion says much about the peole who are making those accusations - please keep running, it underlines my point perfectly.
Censorship of this type should be totally alien to forums like Mudcat.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jun 16 - 03:54 AM

Israel's version of events is very different.
I have put it to you many times, but you just dismiss it, preferring propaganda.
If you want to discuss events of over 30 years ago yet again, start a thread or reopen one of the many that already exist.

This thread is about the Labour Party and antisemitism.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jun 16 - 03:52 AM

"If you want to discuss the Arab/Israeli conflict Carroll start a thread on it."
Will you mind your own business.
As far as I am concerned, this is about how Israel is interfering in British politics in order to offset its own behavior - if Keith had wished to only include opinions that coincided with his own when he opened this thread, he should have listed what we can and cannot discuss on it - then perhaps the administrators would never have allowed such an obvious piece of agenda-driving propaganda to be put up in the first place.
Sabra Shatila was the greatest single act of mass murder of non-combatants (in this case, 3,500 unarmed men, women and children, all refugees) since the end of World War One.
It was made possible, armed and facilitated by the Israeli Government (that is unquestionable), and was almost certainly ordered by them.
It had nothing to do with warfare - it was the massacre of innocents who were not involved in war - if any act by the Israeli regime can be compared to the Holocaust, this takes pride of place.
It is now, according to Israel's Minister of Justice, Ayelet Shaked, "Antisemitic" to accuse Israel of this crime against humanity - criticism of Israel, according to her "is the same anti-Semitism of blood libels, spreading lies, distorting reality and brainwashing people into hating Israel and the Jews".
If we are discussing Britain''s Labour Party's so-called "Antisemitism" we need to be able to establish exactly what the word means, what exactly The Labour Party is being accused of.
As far as I can see, with a few dubious exeptions, the only accusations so far are against those who have criticised Israel, not the Jewish People.
If that's the case, most of the world is Antisemitic - very few people have openly supported Israeli policy, the self-interested and cowardly have remained silent or have made feeble excuses, but the people who I would choose as spokesmen for my conscience (can't speak for those who have no conscience) have overwhelmingly condemned Israeli actions as mass murder, not just at Sabra Shatila, but in their actions against the Palestinian people as a whole.
Israel stands to become as much a pariah State as was Apartheid South Africa.
You people have no interest in the Jewish People - you have accepted Israel's accusation that Jewish critics of Israel are "self-hating Jews" - that is the level of concern for the Jews.
Keith set out to denigrate, Jewish critics of Sabra Shatila, on-the spot eye-witnesses who "couldn't possible have seen" what they reported.
A "self hating", presumable Israeli soldier who observed the massacre and had a breakdown because of it, gave a testimony which became a prize-winning animated film, 'Waltz With Bashir' - rejected by Keith.
Jews throughout the world have contemned the massacre for what it was - an act of attempted genocide - that was "Antisemitic" according to Ms, Shaked.
History is full of such Jewish "Antisemites" - Einstein and his fellow Jewish intellectuals, Jews for Justice, Rabbis for Justice, the staff of Haaretz, the Holocaust Survivors and their descendants, who signed that massive petition, and the many hundreds of thousands of heroic Jews who have spoken against the destruction of their dream of Israel..... all "Antisemites".
If we can't even discuss this definition we might as well buy the popcorn, take our seats and sit down to enjoy the next massacre because, as sure as the next number 41 bus, there'll be another one along in a minute.
So far, as far as I can see, all these accusations have been generated by 'friends of Israel' and the definition they are using is that now being touted by them - any criticism of Israeli policy is Antisemitic" by its very nature.
If this is the case, the Labour Party have as much of a case to answer as do Bobad's hysterically accused "Antisemitic Jew-Haters" - in other word - there is no case to answer, m'lud.
Never again attempt to censor or manipulate or tell members of this forum what we should or should not be discussing or where we should be discussing it neither of you have a shred of authority here, neither do you have our respect - your persistent and ongoing behaviour has made sure of that.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Jun 16 - 02:38 AM

If you want to discuss the Arab/Israeli conflict Carroll start a thread on it.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jun 16 - 03:10 PM

"Israel stopped it."
Israel facilitated, armed the killers, provided them with transport, opened the gates, provided flares so the massacre could go on for three nights, turneed reugees trying to escape back into the camp, drove the killers to the airport, provided bulldozers to bury the bodies, then built a stadium over the mass graves so nobody could aver calculate how many were murdered (3,500 unarmed refugees)- have I forgotten anything oh yas, nearly forgot, then elected the officer responsible Prime Minister
Yep - you're right - the did stop it - stop those responsible from being punished, that is
Jim Carroll
THIS IS WHAT IT'S ABOUT AS WELL

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jun 16 - 02:28 PM

f sabra Shatila - oh - I forgot Israel didn't do it

Correct.
It was an Arab Militia.
Israel stopped it.

Where does the Labour Party come in to it Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jun 16 - 01:55 PM

This is what this has always been about
AND THIS
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jun 16 - 01:42 PM

I take it that you use the word "understanding" advisedly.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jun 16 - 01:42 PM

"What is happening in the Mid East is the fault of IS and the war in Syria."What is happening in the middle Esat has been happening for decades - before Isis was a twinkle
Israel has been landgrabbbin or that period and more - that is fully accepted as the root cause of the problem even among Israel's few friends
Wonder where Issis was at the time of sabra Shatila - oh - I forgot Israel didn't do it
" Jim, this thread is not about Middle East either."
This tread is whatever we choose to make it - your mate has just tried to make it about Ireland - you'll ignore this, of course
Stop tring to silence the truth - we'll make it about what we feel relevant
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Jun 16 - 01:13 PM

Keith A of Hertford - 15 Jun 16 - 12:38 PM

Good post Keith, that has been my reading and understanding of it from the start.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Jun 16 - 01:09 PM

Keith - I can almost accept that as a reasonably satisfactory answer and explanation...

Whilst I may disagree on your perception of how this debate gained persistent momentum, who's denying what,
and who the 'bad guys' may or may not be....
why be petty...???

If you genuinely mean "I was not driven by any antipathy to Labour."

Then that's fair enough grounds for amicable conclusion for me...

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jun 16 - 12:38 PM

Pfr, I just put up for discussion something that was briefly a major news item.

What happened next was a group of abusive people denying the truth of the story.
I found myself having to produce the evidence that your denials were wrong.

I was not driven by any antipathy to Labour.

Why is it so important to You to doggedly prove the Labour party is antisemitic... ???

It is not. I just rebutted your claims that it was not even an issue.

Why are you only focusing your concentration on the Labour party...???

Because that was the subject of this thread.
But for all the denials, it would have died after a couple of days.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Jun 16 - 12:23 PM

Keith - ok then.. and I have an angel on one shoulder advising me to stop being so sarcastic towards you..

I'll just ask you straight and direct, one respectful 'adversary' to another...
in the spirit of stimulating debate..


Why is it so important to You to doggedly prove the Labour party is antisemitic... ???

I'll supplement that question..

Why are you only focusing your concentration on the Labour party...???

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jun 16 - 11:58 AM

The decent people of the world blames Israel for what is happening in the Middle East,

What is happening in the Mid East is the fault of IS and the war in Syria.
Israel has nothing to do with any of it.

In recent months we have seen atrocities in Syria worse than anything the world has known since WW2, and nothing to do with Israel.

BTW Jim, this thread is not about Middle East either.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jun 16 - 11:58 AM

OR THESE MAYBE?
OR ALL THESE
OR ISRAEL'S WORST POGROM
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jun 16 - 11:08 AM

Interestint that you believe the Jewish People are responsible for
THIS
or
THIS
Nobody else here does
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jun 16 - 09:27 AM

" Jew haters of the world blames Israel for what is happening in the Middle East"
Who would they be Bobad - love to hear you accuse members of this forum again - just itching to go
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Jun 16 - 09:04 AM

bob - People who are appalled by the actions of brutal intolerant vengeful arseholes who just happen to be jews..

Does that make them Jew haters...

..or merely brutal intolerant vengeful arsehole haters...???? 😣




BTW - As I've said, I'm only 1/4 jew by blood - so can't really qualify as a 'self hating jew'..

But I do find the other 3/4 of me lives in continued peace and harmony with the jewish 1/4..

I have no inner problems coexisting in the same body....

See.. peaceful solutions are possible.... 😇

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 15 Jun 16 - 07:53 AM

The decent people Jew haters of the world blames Israel for what is happening in the Middle East

Fixed

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jun 16 - 07:28 AM

"BTW Jim, this thread is not about Israel."
Only to those who ignore the efforts Israel is making to divert attention from its atrocities by making all criticism "Antisemitic"
Mind your own business Keith - you started this thread to attack the Labour Party, the consequences of the Pandora's Box you opened are your own.
"No liberal democracy does."
Human Rights organisations and decent people most certainly do - the politicians stay silent - human rights or human decency tend not to be among your strong points.
If they supported Israel's behaviour they would say so.
America, with its own record of crimes against humanity and war crimes are the leaders of what little support Israel actually has - which puts the situation where it is - the war criminals supporting the war criminals.
This is not a thread drift and those who claim it to be are attempting to manipulate it - nothing new there.
Was inclined to make a joke about my "invincibility" but decided against it when I remembered that a sense of humour is not one of your strng points and I have little doubt that you would attempt to use it against me in future.
A strong indication of perceived invincibility is to be found in those who insist in talking down to people, by the way.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Jun 16 - 06:17 AM

Fear not Keith, "Jom the infallible" will find some way of blaming the thread drift on either you or me.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jun 16 - 04:15 AM

BTW Jim, this thread is not about Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jun 16 - 04:06 AM

The decent people of the world blames Israel for what is happening in the Middle East,

No they do not.
No liberal democracy does.
They do blame Assad, Russia, Iran and Hezbollah.
It is them not Israel who bomb crowded hospitals and schools on a regular basis with no comment from you Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jun 16 - 03:41 AM

I am neither .......
" I see homosexuality as an extremely dangerous and unhealthy behaviour"
No- really?
They are two contradictions in terms for a start - little short of "gay plague" but you've already said that and it's implicit in that statement.
Your support for making asylum seekers by supporting making them wear
yellow-star like identification tags and having all their doors pinted red makes you a raving Islamophobe and your record on womens (or anybody's) rights speaks for itself.
"These people deliberately blamed the Israeli people for the plight of the Palestinians.....this led to Anti-Semitism."
The decent people of the world blames Israel for what is happening in the Middle East, eye witnesses, media reports backed with film footage, Human Rights groups, medical workers treating the wounded - all universally condemn Israel's behaviour - only the politicians which you claim to hate keep silent - even they, with a fer self-interested exceptions do not openly support Israel.
The Israeli regime is now extremist right wing and seems to be as self-serving and corrupt as such regimes are.
You've chosen your side in that war too.
Antisemitism is the oldest and longest running form of hatred in the world - to suggest that Palestinians have caused it is totally insane.
Israel has fueled that hatred by identifying its own murderous policies with the Jewish People as a whole - tey have put the lives of every Jew on the planet at risk by doing so.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Jun 16 - 01:33 AM

Steve Shaw - 14 Jun 16 - 12:23 PM

Ah yes Shaw 1979 when the UK suddenly saw the light at the end of the tunnel and the death knell was struck on Union Bosses aspirations of dictating what was what to the elected Government of the country.

And that B-movie actor who set the stage to face down the USSR and bring about the end to the Cold War.

Just think Shaw if you got your way on the Monarchy you could get all nostalgic and vote for Scargill for President.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 11:00 PM

You know you've got it right when you inherit your very own stalker. Thanks Greg for your encouragement, you inspire me to keep on with my mission to enlighten and make better people of folks like you.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 09:25 PM

Piss off, Boo.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 09:11 PM

Angus Robertson, the leader of the Scottish National Party, said he shared Arkush's concerns, and that there was "no excuse" for Livingstone's remarks.

Robertson, who defended his party's spotlighting of Palestinian rights in parliament to the inquiry, said the used of words like "Zionists and Zionism" are sometimes used as a code for "Jews."

"We should be very careful about how that kind of language is used," he said, adding that if Livingstone were a member of his own party, he would have sought his dismissal.

"I am a strong critic of the government of Israel," Robertson said. "I am very concerned about the treatment of Palestinians and would wish there to be a two-state solution."

Robertson went on to express concern that criticizing Israel breeds anti-Semitism, where, he said people "start using language and imagery which we know from history has been used before, to cast that back to all Jews in Israel."

Tropes such as "Jewish ownership of press or the financial system to influence public opinion — that is anti-Semitism," Robertson added.

TOI

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 07:34 PM

Well the reason I wouldn't join the SWP was that I didn't agree that aggressive politicisation of people was the right way to go. It sounded far too manipulative for my liking. Propagating your ideas, getting people to get more involved in their trade unions, workplace meetings, encouraging turnouts on picket lines, raising awareness...all great strategies, but even in those days I was picking up from some quarters a vibe that sounds very much like the radicalisation that we hear about these days and condemn. I didn't like it then and I don't like it now. The legitimate way to win people over is with argument, not polemic, not rhetoric. If you can't manage it that way, you'd better look to your philosophy. Blair Peach would have agreed with me. In fact, I remember, one night in a pub on Burdett Road after a few pints, that he did!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 07:03 PM

it's a struggle trying to think of the right words...

What I was grasping to say was..

your contemporaries, the writers and agitators 5 to 10 years or so older than us,
were a direct significant influence,
definitely informing the political punk and agit pop, & 2 tone music culture we were being inspired by... 😎

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 06:53 PM

Steve - it's the blokes of your age and experience, who's progressive ideas & example lead the way for us lefty leaning teenagers in the late 70s...
Around the time we provincial west country sixth form college kids were becoming politicised by Anti nazi league and rock against racism..

Me and my mates in our punk new wave band, were still works in progress, learning and exploring as we became more sophisticated in our thinking on cultural issues...

It seems so long ago now, and my memory is faded, but we read about Blair Peach in youth music papers like NME and Sounds, and student mags, and dodgy counter culture pamphlets and fanzines....

In my early 20s I was at a lefty Poly course, I also was on on the fringes of SWP;
and encountering much further leftwing 'revolutionaries' & anarchists [usually daft middle class twats..]..

yeah.. so long ago...

I'm sleepy, and not able to write too coherently..


anyway.. seriously.. cheers Steve mate...

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 05:53 PM

Well, pfr, most of my mates were SWP though I always refused to join. I was a long-standing member of Teachers' Rank And File, allied to the SWP, and the Anti-Nazi League. I was on the committee of East London NUT and a council member of the Inner London Teachers' Association of the NUT. At the meetings I always sat with Blair Peach, my mate who was killed by that SPG copper at Southall. You may have heard of him. I'll tell you a thing or two about Blair that, had you known him, you'd have agreed with me wholeheartedly. He didn't give a shit about owning stuff. He was lovely teacher of special needs children, just up the road from my school in Poplar, and he made every one of them feel special. Each and every one of them loved him to bits. His stands against racism, sexism, antisemitism, Islamophobia, homophobia and misogyny were unswerving and uncompromising and incredibly clear-sighted. He had a bad stammer but he was a mighty orator nonetheless. He loved to argy-bargy about politics over a pint or five with his mates and he was a laugh a minute. He was a mighty man, in spite of his slight physical stature, who would have made mincemeat in five minutes of the far lesser people such as bobad and Keith who post here. Blair's been dead for 36 years now but I feel he's right here with me when I have to confront the dishonest right-wing bigoted shitbags who infest these threads.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 02:28 PM

Certainly not PFR and I'm surprise that you suggest such a thing.
The people I refer to were obsessed by the Palestinian problem, which is real enough, though it should have been sorted out years ago if the Palestinian people had not been led by a selection of corrupt brigands with the agenda of keeping the issue unresolved.
These people deliberately blamed the Israeli people for the plight of the Palestinians.....this led to Anti-Semitism.

I am neither racist, misogynist or homophobic, I simply try my hardest to give what I see as the truth in my discussions here, if someone asks me why I oppose homosexual marriage, I give straight answers.
I have no problems with any race or women.....it is how people behave that I am interested in not the colour of their skin or gender.

I see Islamic Fundamentalism as a dangerous madness. I see homosexuality as an extremely dangerous and unhealthy behaviour which should be neither criminalised ....or promoted.
I think women should be given as much respect as men in whatever job they do and the same remuneration IF they are capable of doing the job. There are some jobs to which women are unsuited.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 01:09 PM

Steve - can't remember the details.. I was 20, in a shit job, living in Leeds near the Uni at the time thatcher won..
There were hardcore nutter student political fringe groups in abundance...

The really scary feminists were campaigning for her to win [for obvious reason..]
and there were seriously barmy lefties who me and my mate [a politics student] were aware and came into contact with in pubs and the main lefty bookshop.

They despised Labour for being lackeys of capitalism.. and had high hopes thatchers victory would spark off the revolution...

Could one of them have been Ake when he was much younger...?????? 🙄

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 12:23 PM

Well I for one have never felt more depressed and downcast than when Thatcher got in in 1979, an election thrown away by Callaghan thanks to his hanging on through the winter. On top of that, one of my good mates had been bludgeoned to death by a copper on his way home from an election rally in Southall. There was no joy on the left of any kind whatsoever, pfr. Then, the year after, a thick-as-pigshit B-movie actor suckered the people of the US into electing him president. We knew that a destructive few years was in the offing and we were right. Show me any leftie who takes pleasure in a hard-right victory and I'll show you a bleedin' nutter.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 12:17 PM

Fair enough.. no arguing against transparency..

so now let's see all political parties, social institutions, religions, professions.. etc..
throw open their doors
and make public the details and named names
in their ongoing internal inquiries into all forms of racism and discrimination...??? 🙄

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 12:03 PM

There is no proof that the Labour Party is guilty of anything the right-wing press and the Israeli propaganda industry is throwing at it, but it it interesting to see who leaps forward to support those claims.
JIm Carroll

Just Google Labour NEC anti-semitism investigations - see what you get, I suppose all the named Labour Party spokespersons could be imaginary, inventions of the press and the BBC. But if that were indeed the case then I would have thought that somebody in the Labour Party would have complained about it - wouldn't you.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 10:07 AM

There is no proof that the Labour Party is guilty of anything the right-wing press and the Israeli propaganda industry is throwing at it,

I did not cite any such sources, so why claim it Jim?
My quotes were of Labour's own NEC, and some prominent Labour members.
Do you really claim they all lie Jim?
It is much more likely that you people are all in denial of an obvious truth.

Pfr,
It's summer, it's a rare bright sunny day.. we must find more positive constructive thing's to do than this..... 😎

I have been enjoying the summer throughout. My couple of short posts a day, usually first thing and early evening, take up little time and a stimulating debate is one of my little pleasures, especially when I am certain of my ground and can reduce the opposition to just making baseless, smearing, personal attacks.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 08:37 AM

Ake could be thinking back to the dark days when Thatcher had just become Prime Minister, and there were tiny fringe groups of extreme nutters on the furthest spectrum of the left
who celebrated her victory as the start of the process of capitalism destroying itself...???

An era when racism, sexism and homophobia was still prevalent amongst older trade unionists and Labour party voters.
But that was an inevitable symptom of how rancidly prejudiced the entire British mainstream society and culture was in those dim dark unenlightened times...

I'd suggest my generation born in the late 50s / early 60s was the turning point.
Growing up educated to accept multiculturalism and progressive ideas of tolerance as a norm...???



Ake - perhaps it's different up there in Scotland were the rise of nationalism has conjured up all sorts of [daft ?] rationalisations to discredit and oust the Labour party...???

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 06:18 AM

"or many years and we fought all forms of racism, including antisemitism and Islamophobia,"
Absolutely - Jewish Revolutionaries helped found left politics in Britain and were pretty prominent throught my time there - Andrew Rothsteien, Pil Piratin, Manny Shinwell..... and later, my personal influences, the Suss family, Les Parrington, and Hugh Faulkner.
The left parties were founded on the dear of equality for all races and all cultures - I was on the National Committee of the Youth Organisation of one of those parties and I know what the policies where from inside out.
If there has been an influx of Anti-semitism into the Labour Party, it is a recent thing and possibly reflects the rise of racism and right-wing policies in Britain today   
To say that Antisemitism abounds on the left is simply a lie made up by an individual who claims to el left but espouses extreme left wing views - including racism and homophobia - completely alien to left philosophy
There is no proof that the Labour Party is guilty of anything the right-wing press and the Israeli propaganda industry is throwing at it, but it it interesting to see who leaps forward to support those claims.
JIm Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 05:49 AM

Well I was involved in "the hard left" for many years and we fought all forms of racism, including antisemitism and Islamophobia, tooth and nail, and we also fought homophobia and sexism tooth and nail. In many regards, we were ahead of our time. We would have booted you out within minutes. People like you with stinking, intolerant and bigoted attitudes to gay people and immigrants were anathema. You must have been on a different planet.

Keith, you'd better investigate the meaning of "irony." You appear to be clueless as to its meaning. How ironic, then, that you of all people should be telling me that I don't understand it. 😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 05:38 AM

I would also add that the British Parliamentary labour Party is rotten to the core and those who who are leading the witch hunt are no better than the committed socialists........they have another agenda, which is presiding over a Party in which no one rocks the global capitalist boat.....a Blairite never never land.

This of course does not affect the result of this particular discussion.....in which Keith and Mr T win easily on points.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 05:26 AM

During my years of political involvement in the "hard left" I have seen plenty of Anti-Semitism. It abounds on the left.

Whether these folks actually believe it to be true is another matter, the left seem to like to use it as a political weapon and the people with whom I associated always used the maxim that the end justified the means.

That may well be true if we really want to see socio/economic change, but to suggest that Anti Semitism is not rife on the left of politics is just plain stooopid.

Keith should really be my opponent on all things political, but I at least understand that he is trying to get you all to see beyond your blinding and unrealistic ideology.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 02:49 PM

Keith - what I will say is...

There are no winners and losers.. we all each get a goldfish in a bag as a consolation prize for joining in....


It's summer, it's a rare bright sunny day.. we must find more positive constructive thing's to do than this..... 😎

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 02:26 PM

Give up lads.
You have no case and can not challenge the facts.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 01:23 PM

Give up lads
Call the warden
Jim, Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 12:57 PM

Jim and Pfr,

"Many have been accused of antisemitism by other Labour members
What evidence do you have for this -

I have quoted prominent Labour people referring to it.
Why would they lie?

How many are "many" - numbers please.

I do not know. Fifty had been suspended a few weeks back, but there have been more since then.

This is typical of one of your distortions "the entire NEC" of the party say it is
You've lied from the start and you are still lying.

If it is a lie, it is not my lie.
It was reported in Labour List, and again, why would they lie?.
Would you like the link again?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 12:38 PM

Keith.. On the other hand...

Maybe you know exactly what has been said and choose to forget for your own devious purposes...????


For some time now, I have been reminded of a quote I wanted to use here, but still can't remember the name or source..

Anyway, sometime in the last few months I saw a news item where an old British establishment gentleman traitor/spy from early cold war era
was addressing a room of KGB recruits [???]

He jovially instructed something like this

"If you are ever caught and interrogated, no matter what they do to break you down, don't admit to a thing, always deny everything..."... 🕵

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 12:18 PM

Keith - all that has been addressed so many times in this thread by various people, in so many written styles, providing all kinds of facts and detail..

Yet you can't remember...

.. and you wonder why we are becoming concerned for you...?????


You're now more like a punch drunk defeated boxer, grimly instinctively clinging to consciousness until the final bell..
barely able to see through bruised & bloodied swollen eyes, can't remember who or where he is..
But is determined not to be seen to fall because he is still convinced he will be declared the winner... 🏆

It's not heroic, his aides should have thrown the towel in for his own safety several rounds ago...

Brutal and hard to defend, but that's boxing....

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 12:15 PM

"Many Labour people have been suspended, "
Suspensions have happened because - the fact that if accusations have been made action have to be taken to investigate those accusations accusations do not mean or even imply that those accused are guilty - how many times has this to be repeated before it sinks in?
"Many have been accused of antisemitism by other Labour members
What evidence do you have for this - who has accused whom and what are the grounds for their having done so?
How many are "many" - numbers please.
Have just been reading the Gatestone Zionist site - they are describing those calling for the boycott of Israel "Antisemitic" - is that where you are getting your "many" from?
The subtance of all your claims has been blown out of the water by your many
This is typical of one of your distortions "the entire NEC" of the party say it is
You've lied from the start and you are still lying
You are making it up
Ever thought of becomign an Amarican senator -= they're good at witchunts
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 11:44 AM

Eveyboy (exept Bobad - .......Has challenged what you have said

Really?
What was the challenge to the fact that 1.Many Labour people have been suspended, 2.Many have been accused of antisemitism by other Labour members, and 3.that it is a serious issue for the Labour Party according to its own NEC?

None, because they are all unchallengeable facts, and that has been my case all along.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 10:51 AM

Are you on any medication that affects cognisance and judgement...???

He was just the same long ago, before his current healty prolems, so that's likely not the answer.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 10:41 AM

"No-one has challenged the case I have been making."
Eveyboy (exept Bobad - which is as good as everybody)
Has challenged what you have said
You have been asked to provide proof that there is a serious problem with Antisemitism in the Labour Party - you respond with Dalek-like repetition that the Labour Party is taking it seriously - as they should
If they didn't take it seriously you'd be up on your char screaming "they're all Antisemites".
Any personal attacks here are a response to your appalling behaviour in attempting to fuck up a thread because it undermines your unquestioning support for Israel.
"I have no grudge."
You ooze grudge - if you didn't you would not be attempting to prove a problem exists before it has even been looked into.
The two people you have produced who claim there is a problem are both pro-Israeli activists, one with a political axe to grind with the present Labour leadership.
Your refusal even to acknowledge this, let alone challenge it is an indication of the dishonest way you argue
You have deliberately lied in claiming that you have linked to examples of many Labour Party members claiming there to be a problem - you have not
Such dishonest and repetitious behaviour elicits abuse.
When push comes to shove, there is no need for some of the anger being generated here, as understandable as it is - you have once again placed yourself in the limelight and are doing our job for us in demolishing your own case.
Personally, I don;t understand why anybody bothers even responding to you any more - it's tantamount to showering attention on a petulantly destructive child.
Time we all moved on to someone else, I think and leave him and his mate to disparaging the Irish - they can take it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 09:50 AM

Steve,
Steve, it is morning in UK, and there is no Gracie.
You obviously do not recognise irony. Perhaps you have some disability.

Pfr,
and whines like a little child when you are challenged

No-one has challenged the case I have been making.
You all just resort to personal attack because there is no challenge.
I have just stated facts.

I'm not going to put up with your destructive grudge against the labour party

I have no grudge.
I merely raised for discussion what was briefly a major news item.
It should and would have ended weeks ago but for you people denying demonstrable facts.
I merely responded by demonstrating those facts.

As for me being a bully, it is me who has had to stand up to abuse from all of you people.
There has been none from me in return.
That must make me the meekest of all bullies!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 09:34 AM

Keith - against the better judgement of other people, I am still a fan of boxing...

I respect the gentlemanly ideal of being deadly enemies inside the ring, but outside of a fight can shake hands, have a manly hug,
and be respectful adversaries, or even real friends and brothers.

I have no time for negative folks who hold petty spiteful bitter grudges.

You may notice that I am only engaging in this thread on the topic you set.
I have always tried my best to avoid even looking in the numerous current & previous threads on Ireland and Israel.
I don't care for your perpetual idiotic grudge fights and insults.
Which have inevitably spilled over into this thread.

Keith - all I know about you is the estimation I have arrived at on your character, based on how you act in the threads I meet you in.

Sadly, I think you are a devious shit stirring bully, who tries to play the blameless innocent, and whines like a little child when you are challenged...
Every class had one at primary school...

you make yourself look like a dick acting like a spoilt 7 year old.... 😣

I actually know nothing about you, your age, or your profession..
You say you are ill, and I sympathise with you on that score.
We all have our trials and problems to contend with outside in real life.

I honestly can't say how much we could like or tolerate each other in a civil social situation, for example a folk club...???

But whatever, I'm not going to put up with your destructive grudge against the labour party
or supercilious attitude towards me....

Not in this thread....

It seems to me you easily make enemies then complain when they bite back.....?????

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 09:33 AM

Anybody reading Jim Carroll's last two posts must like me be in total amazement at how a person use so many words to say absolutely S.F.A.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 09:06 AM

Just dug that last bit up - thought I'd posted it before.
I might have added that your racist contempt for the Irish people in describing them as "brainwashd", "gullible", ignorant of their own history, glorifying murder and conned into demanding independence by foreigners, is insulting on in international grand scale - and that continues to be the case on a thread I have no intention in being part of.
Nor do I intend to allow it to happen on this thread by being a part of it here - far too easy to let Keith off the hook for his dishonesty here.
Go and talk to each other on the other thread - it has no place her.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 08:58 AM

"Jim, you withdrew from the Rising thread after providing a link that demolished your own case."
I withdrew from that thread because you have twisted distorted denigrated and dismissed and ignored every piece of information that has ever been put up as you did with the book I put up - though I have to admit that you have managed to gain masses of support for your arguments for your arguments - in your ****** dreams!!!
More winners and losers Keith - grow up - this is not a competition
"I do not think that either Keith A or I have launched any such personal attack"
No enquiry has been held yet, but this hasn't stopped Keith and his friend from making up their own minds without the cases even being discussed, let alone examined.
Perhaps it they are found not guilty Keith will issue an apology - there's always a first in this life!!
As for my "made up shit" - still hovering above extinction before it sinks into the slime-pit you and Keith reduced it to.
Your own "personal attacks" are built into every response you make to anyone who disagrees with you - "Jim Carroll made-up-shit" being a typical example (the "Jim" having been insisted on, being a reluctant addition).
You and Keith persistently insult people - muppets, no-nothings, ignoramuses - the very nature of your postings exudes contempt.
Your greatest insults are directed to our intelligence by expecting your pronouncements, often on complicated and unknowable 'facts', to be accepted without proof or qualification.
Your very presence exudes arrogant superiority - totally unmerited.
Bobad's hate-spitting invective is beyond belief.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 07:59 AM

"I've just withdrawn from a thread in which you and your mate have launched personal attacks on my friends, family my neighbours and in fact the vast majority of the occupants of this island by representing them as "brainwashed" ignorant, gullible, and misled by propaganda."

More Jim Carroll "Made-Up-Shit". I do not think that either Keith A or I have launched any such personal attack and besides I think it was the five historians quoted, the former Leader of Fine Gael and the Coroner who held the inquest into the death of Lord Louis Mountbatten who all linked the political meddling and interference into educational matters and the faux-history that was taught in schools in the Republic of Ireland for purely political purposes to the violence that has blighted the island since independence.

There again Jim you could always provide examples of such personal attacks - but track record would tend towards the probability that you won't.

But as far as this thread goes, perhaps somebody could tell me if all 50 of those Labour Party members who were suspended have now been given a clean bill of health by the investigation by the compliance unit?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 06:40 AM

Jim, you withdrew from the Rising thread after providing a link that demolished your own case.
You lost.
Sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 06:38 AM

Debates can be won and lost Jim.
Your case did not stand up, so you lose.
Sorry.

Steve, it is morning in UK, and there is no Gracie.
You must have a "mental aberration."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 06:32 AM

"So you lose.
So you lose."
Back to !winning" and "losing"! again.
Jay-sus
And you are surprised when people attack your behavior!!!!
This is a debate, not a competition
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 06:29 AM

"Nothing but personal attack from you people now."
Hardly nothing - but have you ever considered that you might actually deserve the personal attacks
I've just withdrawn from a thread in which you and your mate hqave launcced personal attacks on my friends, family my neighbours and in fact the vast majority of the occupants of this island by representing them as "brainwashed" ignorant, gullible, and misled by propaganda.
I've just been describes as an apologist for Islamist terrorism and an anti-Semite (again) by the feller you are defending - you have made similar accusations in the past.
Have you ever considered that you might actually deserve the personal attacks.
I will attempt to have Bobad's vitriolic and sladerous posting removed and will arasei the question of his membership of this forum.
If you ever do the same again, I will respond in exactly the same way.
You are a pair of extremists who have no place in decent company.
People here are responding to what you say and how you behave not who you are.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 05:31 AM

Say goodnight to the folks, Gracie...

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 04:18 AM

Nothing but personal attack from you people now.
I have dementia, I am an Islamophobe, I have a " mental aberration" that prevents me being truthful, though no untruth has been or can be produced.

Of course you only resort to such abuse because you have no case.

You claim that it is not a serious issue for the party, but "the entire NEC" of the party say it is.
So you lose.

You attack me for saying that Labour people accuse other Labour people of it, but it is shown to be a fact.
So you lose.

All you can do is make up shit about me.

And Pfr tries to make the case that political parties should never be criticised because it might offend their supporters!
You lose that one straight away, silly.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jun 16 - 06:49 PM

Really? As with whites in apartheid South Africa, and whites in segregationalist America, learning that negro company is best avoided? Jim says you're antisemitic. You're now calling Jews racist. You're antisemitic, bobad!

Actually, it's far more probable that you're just a crazy, mixed-up bloke. Who also happens to be a cheat, lest I forget.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 12 Jun 16 - 06:34 PM

Hey, where's BeardedBS when ya need him?

Jews have learned from history that some company is best avoided.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jun 16 - 06:02 PM

Hey, where's BeardedBS when ya need him? Lets get all the clowns together - unfair to expect PooBah to carry the load all by himself!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jun 16 - 05:14 PM

You have nothing to say, forum cheater, so why not put a sock in it.

I've never made an antisemitic remark in my life. For thirteen years of my teaching career I worked in rough schools in east London. Not once did I ever allow a racist remark in my classroom to pass. I'm quite proud of that, actually. I have a really simple definition of antisemitism that I stick to. You're an antisemite if you attack Jews BECAUSE THEY ARE JEWS. A remark that does not match that simple criterion cannot be antisemitic. I'm perfectly aware that remarks that don't directly attack Jews, but which are intended to disadvantage them in more subtle ways, can also be antisemitic. My antennae are tuned. I don't give a stuff what Israeli politicians say or whst pro-Israel lobbyists say. I don't give a stuff what discredited criteria, never adopted by the EU, say. I've fought racism all my life and I know what antisemitism is. I don't need some snivelling little forum-cheating gobshite and his Hertford henchman to tell me, thank you very much. Too many bloody miles on the clock.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 12 Jun 16 - 03:59 PM

Jim Carroll you are an apologist for Islamist terrorism, that explains your anti-semitism.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jun 16 - 03:03 PM

Didn't finish
Bobad
You are an Islamophobe too - you once put up one of the largest attacks on the Muslim religion I have ever come across - hundreds of claimed examples of Islamic terrorism dating back to Biblical Times as proof that Islam was a terrorist religion - you lifted them all from the extremist site 'Muslim Watch.
Keith supported your selections unquestioningly, demanding that we disprove them, even though most of them were untraceable.
Paint that whatever colour you like, that's Islamophobia - and both of you were guilty of it.
If you can describe us as Antisemitic so we can describe you as Islamophobic
The only difference is that we have the proof, you do not.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jun 16 - 02:28 PM

""A black rights activist linked to the left-wing group Momentum has been suspended from the Labour Party over remarks drawing parallels between Zionism and the Nazis."
Well done him/her it's about time someone stood up to be counted..
Will all those Jews who have said and are still saying exactly the same thing be expelled from Israel, d'you think?
Thanks to Israeli propaganda manipulation there no longer exists a clear definition of Antisemitism so comparing Israeli behaviour to the Nazis is now acceptable, especially as that is exactly how they are behaving - that part of the definion no longer applies – if the Israelis decide without consultation, that any critisicm of Israeli policy is Antisemitic then the rest of us can just as arbitrarily decide that we will compare that polict to the Nazis, especially as exactly the same thing has been said by Holocaust survivors, Israeli Generals and former heads of Mossad – and was being suggested as far back as the 1940s by Einstein and his fellow intellectuals.
You can't pick the bits of a definition that just suit you and ignore the ones that don't.
I believe you have described critics of Israel "Antisemitic" - Bobad certainly has.
That makes you by definition Anti-Semitic.
"Those who complain the most of being judged tend to be the most judgemental of others."
Don't you just?
Keith is a fully exposed (though not admitted) Islamophobe - I'm sure nobody needs the quote any more!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jun 16 - 02:25 PM

Somebody call a cab.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jun 16 - 02:19 PM

I cab be awfully judgemental of forum cheats, especially when I'm always unfailing open about who I am. I feel sorry for Keith, bobad, because he has some kind of mental aberration that prevents him from being truthful and objective. But you're not the same. You're just a cheat.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Jun 16 - 01:53 PM

Keith - Sun's out, oven fish 'n' chips are cookin'... life's too short for petty squabbles with indefatigable blinkered pedants...

"I have not done that, and if I had criticised a political party, that would not be a personal attack on anyone."

..that really show's how limited your understanding is of the reality of labour party politics..

The party is it's people...!!!

It's not just an abstract academic conceptual construct to be debated and demolished in isolation;
in a sterile vacuum, inhabited by highfaluting geriatric armchair keyboard warriors...

'You' attack without good justification, ordinary decent people will defend and if necessary, counter attack...

Bullies should not ne so surprised or feign outrage when that happens... 😣


Btw.. I don't actually know your age, but intelligent politically aware people of my generation grew up
with the concepts loosely gathered under the 'slogan'

"The personal is political".....

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jun 16 - 01:43 PM

Those who complain the most of being judged tend to be the most judgemental of others.

As you should know, PeepBo, since you & your proxy identity are one of those greatest complainers of all time. Jerk.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 12 Jun 16 - 01:20 PM

Well looky here, he who calls others Islamophobes and denigrates the religious beliefs of others is whining about being called out as a Jew hater. Can't you just smell the hypocrisy?

Those who complain the most of being judged tend to be the most judgemental of others.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jun 16 - 01:14 PM

Pfr,
Keith - what's more personal than you constantly attacking and maliciously maligning the one political party
that genuinely defends the well being of my old mum, my wife, and myself...!!!???

I have not done that, and if I had criticised a political party, that would not be a personal attack on anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jun 16 - 11:30 AM

And what's more personal, Keith, than the friend you defend calling me a Jew hater?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jun 16 - 11:18 AM

"Both your obsessive fixations on the individual rather than the topic of the thread exemplifies perfectly why some choose to post anonymously when that option is available to them."
You use your anonymity in order to freely and excessively replace argument with gutter-level abuse and in doing so, yo have no right whatever to complain when others return your behaviour in kind.
Your use of anonymity is a form of cowardice - you would never dare to behave the way you do from behind the safety of your keyboard as you would face-to face - I know damn well if you behaved the way you do in person to some of the people I've met you'd be sent home with your teeth in your pocket.
Perhaps it might help if you pretended we were arguing over a pint - that would slow your gallop somewhat.
You automatically react to arguments you can't handle with a scream of "Antisemitism"
Keith has been a bit more inventive and has gone through a small repertoire of tricks
He used to hide behind unacceptable arguments by claiming he only said them because somebody else did.
Then he discovered the "historian" gambit by selecting right -sounding scoops from the net and presenting them as gospel from "eminent" historians *who he'd never heard of five minutes earlier and certainly never read.
Of late he's taken to making statements, denying he ever made them, then, when proved he has, goes on to defend them as strongly as he was before he "never said them".
The latest thing is to make statements and, when asked for substantiation, go silent for a few posts and repeat them all over again - as often as he sees fit - which is exactly what he is doing here.
Teribus just acts like a bully, talks down to people most of the time and makes pronouncements he never feels the need to season with proof, expecting what he has said tio be accepted without question.   
This is a great forum, or could be if it wasn't for people who behave like you trio.
I believe that collectively, this forum has enough collective knowledge to build cities if it was used to exchange ideas rather than score points.
With you lot, winning seems to be more important that finding the truth or at least, to come to some mutual conclusion.
Ths makes discussion in which you are involved both unfruitful and unpleasant.
You really need to look to your own behaviour before you start pointing fingers.
I heve no problem with healthy robust argument - I much prefer it to anodyne agreement, but you lot have become beyind the pale.
If you refer to me as an "Antisemite" one more time I shall move heaven and earth to have you removed from this thread - that goes for Keith as well - I can come with the bully - I got used to it in primary school.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Jun 16 - 11:02 AM

Keith - what's more personal than you constantly attacking and maliciously maligning the one political party
that genuinely defends the well being of my old mum, my wife, and myself...!!!???

Tell me that then mr [w]easily offended self righteous pompous pants... 🙄

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jun 16 - 10:45 AM

No contribution to the discussion again Pfr.
Just personal stuff, as from Jim and Steve.

What I complained of from Jim, and suggested that it merited expulsion, was his advocating of personal attacks on another member.

Sunday Times today,

"A black rights activist linked to the left-wing group Momentum has been suspended from the Labour Party over remarks drawing parallels between Zionism and the Nazis.

Marlene Ellis, the acting general secretary of Momentum Black ConneXions, a group of Jeremy Corbyn's supporters promoting black rights, signed a letter criticising Labour for suspending Ken Livingstone.

The action against the former mayor of London was taken pending an investigation after he claimed that Hitler had once supported Zionism and that antisemitism was not exactly the same as racism. He has denied antisemitism."
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/labour-activist-suspended-for-antisemitism-9rf7t3d5s

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Jun 16 - 10:17 AM

"pfr, again nothing on the issues, .... Have you anything of substance to say?"

Keith - You seem to have a very short selective memory - I had much of value to contribute to this 'debate',
but as always, inevitably got exasperated and bored trying to reason with thick brick walled defensively fortified fortress Keith..

As for Bob... I'm becoming more convinced he is using a software autobot
programmed with key words and phrases to randomly generate his posts to this thread... 🙄


Though gotta admire you and bob's desperate optimism in the face of certain defeat...

But if I was a hapless low rank soldier under your battlefield command, I'd be shitting bricks and praying the wife got my last letter home... 😨

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 12 Jun 16 - 09:53 AM

Both your obsessive fixations on the individual rather than the topic of the thread exemplifies perfectly why some choose to post anonymously when that option is available to them.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jun 16 - 09:08 AM

"So much obsessive hatred, what a burden it must be."
Couldn't agree more
You have habitually referred to every criticism of Israeli policy as "Antisemitic", no matter what it was.
This is right in line with the inappropriatly appointed Israel's justice minister, Ayelet Shaked's statement, now being debated seriously in the Jerusalem Post.
Nobody here has ever accused 'The Jews' of anything, other than you - you are the main Antisemite here (a close runner-up being Keith, who only occasionally makes the accusation when he paints himself into a corner, as he invariably does.   
If oyu have any example of any of us accusing the Jewish People of anything, feel free to point it out.
Apparently, after having clamped down (quite rightly in some cases) on bad behaviour on this thread, hate-mail such as yours manages to slip under the wire each time - A similar tolerance is shown to those who choose to attack Irish people.
As much as I admire and enjoy this forum, I'm at a loss to understand why such behaviour as yors and Keith's is tolerated.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jun 16 - 08:36 AM

I don't hate you. In fact, if I thought you were old enough, I'd let you buy me a pint.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 12 Jun 16 - 08:31 AM

So much obsessive hatred, what a burden it must be.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jun 16 - 06:13 AM

You should be ashamed of yourself, coming to the defence of bobad. From behind a wall of cowardly anonymity, whilst retaining his bobad option, he called us a worse name than antisemite. He called us Jew-haters, whilst hypocritically bleating that he needed his anonymity so that the rest of us would attack the issue, not the man. Well done for showing us your true colours, Keith. Now let's see you calling for HIS expulsion for taking a secret double identity in order to attack perfectly fair-minded people.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jun 16 - 05:52 AM

"Saying things like that should be an expulsion issue Jim."
Calling people "Antisemitics" as many times as Bobad does should be an issue as far as I'm concerned, as should calling people a "liar as many times as you do.
If the behaviour of both of you in this respect isn't breaching the rules of this forum, it should be.
"recognises the seriousness of this issue."
Your dementia is showing again Keith - being accused of Antisemitism is a serious issue, being guilty of it is a different matter altogether.
We've dealt with the Labour open supporter of the Israeli propaganda campaign and the Mayor of London at least half-a-dozen times - you repeating it as often as you do is now becoming embarrassing.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jun 16 - 04:38 AM

Bobad is a hate-filled Antisemitic fanatic and deserves all the attacking due to him and his kind

Saying things like that should be an expulsion issue Jim.

Where has the Labour Party accused itself of Antisemitism and how could any party do such a thing without producing the evidence - you have produced none.
Rather, you have relied on unrepresentative quotes...

Labour List is not "unrepresentative" and it reported theat the "entire NEC "recognises the seriousness of this issue."

The former elected leader of Scottish Labour is not unrepresentative.
Sadiq Khan is not unrepresentative.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jun 16 - 04:32 AM

Bobad is a hate-filled Antisemitic fanatic and deserves all the attacking due to him and his kind
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jun 16 - 04:30 AM

"When a major party ACCUSES ITSELF of antisemitism, it is a serious issue."
Where has the Labour Party accused itself of Antisemitism and how could any party do such a thing without producing the evidence - you have produced none.
Rather, you have relied on unrepresentative quotes, distorted descriptions of attitudes, Israeli generated propaganda and downright lying in making claims that have been proven to to be true.
Nothing new under the sun eh?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jun 16 - 04:21 AM

When a major party ACCUSES ITSELF of antisemitism, it is a serious issue.
Hence the question, "Whither the Labour Party."

pfr, again nothing on the issues, just a personal attack on Bobad.
Have you anything of substance to say?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 16 - 02:28 PM

"The "entire" Labour Party NEC said that it "recognises the seriousness of this issue "
And Jim and Steve recognise that when a major Party is accused of Antisemitism it is a serious issue.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Jun 16 - 01:45 PM

ok.. bangers and spuds are now in the oven.. got a few spare minutes...

Military History pedants .. yes I actually know that wasn't his exact rank at death..

But I typed that quick whilst chuckling too hard at bob's post...
- at least I didn't call him General Custard, as fondly remembered from childhood cowboys and indians games... 🙄

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Jun 16 - 01:23 PM

"e"

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Jun 16 - 01:18 PM

bobad - what you just posted kinda reminds me of a General Custer's last few moments trying to keep up troop moral... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 16 - 12:46 PM

The "entire" Labour Party NEC said that it "recognises the seriousness of this issue " so the fact that Steve and Jim do not hardly matters!!

It just shows that you are in denial of the truth.


My case is that Labour people have accused other Labour people of antisemitism, backed it with quotes, and have not misquoted anyone.
Steve can not produce an example of a misquote because he lied.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jun 16 - 12:35 PM

You've proved nothing, Keith. Your last post didn't actually address anything I've said. Mysterious. And which one of you said that, BoGuestbad?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 11 Jun 16 - 12:01 PM

Heh, heh, you're wiping the floor with them Keith, that's why they're being so petulant........keep up the good fight.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 16 - 11:07 AM

"At least four, and many that were not reported. Some 50 people were suspended."
Out of how many Labour Party Members - 400,000 on the last count and steadily rising - now 4 really is a serious problem, don't you think?
I could probably list you at least a dozen Conservatives from personal experience and that's without thinking.
What are you on?
"At least four, and many that were not reported"
If they were not reported - you know about them how exactly - what have I told you about hacking
Your attempts to create 'facts' is becoming as legendary as your 'historians'
How many of those fifty have actually been found guilty of anything - none, I think - doesn't stop this good ol redneck from slinging the rope over the branch
Does any of this have any foundation in reality or are they among all the the 'links you claim to have provided?
I suggest that the vast majority if not all of these can be traced back to criticism of Israel and extreme Zionism and attacks on the Jewish Peoiple don't feature in any of this garbage.
"but there have been a number of cases."
Surely you meaqn "number of accusations" or are actual proven cases something you have hacked into in the small hours?
"recognises the seriousness of this issue "
When are you going to stop this - if a major political party is accused of Antisemitism is is a serious issue - a million miles away from there being a major or any sort of problem with Antisemitism.
Your spite is overwhelming - on this as well as other subjects.
What was it Drippipe Thynne used to say, "you silly twisted boy".
Now , any progress on the "many labour party members" front yet - no?
Thought not.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 16 - 10:50 AM

The "entire" Labour Party NEC said that it "recognises the seriousness of this issue " so the fact that you and Jim do not hardly matters!!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 16 - 10:48 AM

Steve,
Er, that last bit is yet another misrepresentation.

I can prove that claim is as false as all the others.
Here is the whole passage

"Anti-Semitism inquiry
Jeremy Corbyn then introduced Baroness Jan Royall, who has conducted two recent investigations into specific allegations of anti-Semitism, and Shami Chakrabarti, who will be chairing a wider ranging inquiry looking at anti-Semitism within the Labour Party. The entire NEC recognises the seriousness of this issue and is committed to addressing all the issues raised by these inquiries. You can read the executive summaries and recommendations of Baroness Royall's reports online at http://press.labour.org.uk/post/144505485689/baroness-royall-inquiry."
http://labourlist.org/2016/05/alice-perrys-nec-report-corbyn-fighting-prejudice-and-listening-to-voters-online/

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jun 16 - 10:40 AM

Which is not to imply that I think there is a serious problem. There isn't. But there is an issue to address. And that Labour is addressing it far better than any other organisation I can think of.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jun 16 - 10:33 AM

Er, that last bit is yet another misrepresentation. Well done, Keith. I've said in this thread that the issue is a serious one and should be properly addressed and that I agree with what the party is doing about it. All here in the thread. You have this seemingly irresistible urge to do Aunt Sallys.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 16 - 10:12 AM

Sorry Steve.
I was unwell and had to cut my visit short.

I have only ever said that some Labourites accuse others of antisemitism.
It is your denials that have kept this thread going long after it dropped out of the news.
I have just repeated my original contention, as Pfr acknowledges and castigates me for.

Already addressed to death in this very thread, all of it.

The only example you can produce is that BBC one where I quoted the relevant three sentences in full.
Your claim is a lie.
If you are not lying, produce some of the actual misquoted you claim.
Good luck with that!

Jim,
There have been a couple of reported cases

At least four, and many that were not reported. Some 50 people were suspended.

- they are, ot course appalling as are any such examples of racist or cultural abuse,

That is all I have ever claimed!

but that is no reason so suggest it is widespread

I have not, but there have been a number of cases.

or in any way a serious problem.

The Labour Party NEC said that it "recognises the seriousness of this issue " so the fact that you and Steve do not hardly matters!!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 16 - 07:38 AM

""The NEC are appalled by recent cases of anti-Semitic abuse. ""
There have been a couple of reported cases - no more - they are, ot course appalling as are any such examples of racist or cultural abuse, but that is no reason so suggest it is widespread or in any way a serious problem - there is no indication that there is any more than there is serious Islamophobia in the Conservative Party because an enquiry is being held there - or are you suggesting that the same applies to the Tories?
You have deliberately made yourself part of the Israeli propaganda campaign and you have lied in an attempt to show there is a serious problem - you have even lied n claimng you have given links where you haven't - _ summed up your links - two serious accusations by two people linked directly to Israeli propaganda.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jun 16 - 06:43 AM

Already addressed to death in this very thread, all of it. Try not to waste our time, though do feel free to waste your energy. Anyway, I thought you were giving us a rest for a few days. Just think, Keith, if you'd stuck to that this angst-ridden thread, yet another that has shredded your credibility, would have sunk quietly below the cutoff line, never to be seen again.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 16 - 05:32 AM

Jim,
there is no indication whatever that those accusations have any foundation

Yes there is.
"The NEC are appalled by recent cases of anti-Semitic abuse. "
" The entire NEC recognises the seriousness of this issue and is committed to addressing all the issues raised by these inquiries."
http://labourlist.org/2016/05/alice-perrys-nec-report-corbyn-fighting-prejudice-and-listening-to-voters-online/

Steve, I have debunked you Wheatcroft claims many times and am happy to keep doing it.
I quoted him accurately and in full.

you misrepresented Jackie Butler by leaving inconvenient bits out of the quote (a misquote, in other words)

Not true.
I referred to the BBC report on her reinstatement, and quoted their first 3 sentences in full.

Jackie Walker's suspension was lifted following an investigation, the party said.
The Kent activist and vice chair of the Momentum movement wrote about "the African holocaust" and Jews as "chief financiers of the slave trade".
Here is the rest of the piece.
I did not leave out any of her contentious remarks.
Your claim is false.


She said the past few weeks had been "a living nightmare".
Ms Walker said: "I am glad this investigation has fully cleared me of any wrongdoing.
"I am not a racist, but I robustly defend my right and the right of others to speak openly and frankly about matters of grave political and historical importance."

It is not true that I "misrepresented Jackie Butler by leaving inconvenient bits out of the quote "

That is all the BBC piece had about it.
I quoted them in full.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-36405130

Anything else Steve?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Jun 16 - 08:17 AM

Keith - not nasty... just over robust sarcasm, which I accept now in the cold light of day as maybe going a little too far... apologies..

But it was born out of exasperation and boredom with your constantly repetitive style of [non] debate...

In my life I honestly have encountered a few individuals with similar obsessive mindsets of denial as yours,
nearly all when involved in voluntary work in my late teens & 20s.

That bloke I mentioned was real and truly sad.
He was very intelligent and educated, well presented in his business suit;
but since his personal misfortunes, something had snapped in his mind.
Sitting there all day in the drop in centre, forlornly clutching his briefcase,
awaiting the next unsuspecting new listener to sit next to him.
Repeating the exact same word for word story over and over.....
and laying out the contents of his briefcase,
documents that 'proved' he was right and not to be blamed.......

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jun 16 - 04:26 AM

Well, Keith, I'm a patient man. Apart from the blatant Wheatcroft misquote, which you want me to stop mentioning (simple way of achieving that: admit it. Even Teribus knows you made a mistake, though "honest mistake" could be pushing it a bit), you misrepresented Jackie Butler by leaving inconvenient bits out of the quote (a misquote, in other words) and you misrepresented me by trying to bracket me with people who are ardently pro-Israel. It's all silly, avoidable behaviour that never helps your case and, worst of all, you never, ever backtrack. Pig-headedness, mindless stubbornness and hubris can't see you through. Very sad.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 16 - 03:52 AM

"They said it was a "serious issue.""
A major Party being accused of Antisemitism is a serious issue - there is no indication whatever that those accusations have any foundation and only two pro-Israeli extremists have suggested that (surprise- surprise)
"I did not say "major problem" so you made that up."
You have suggested that people within the Labour Party, including "many labour party members" have - you made it up
Making up such things is tantamount to saying there is a major problem - you lied and you lied when you claimed to have put it up - you are now serially lying to prove there is a serious problem within the Labour Party - otherwise, why would you be behaving the way you are?
"Sadiq Khan and the entire NEC!"
See what I mean
Both have not suggested there is a serious problem with Antisemitism - Sadiq himself has been accused of Antisemitism too.
They have addressed the fact that the Labour Party is under attack, Sadiq has questioned how that attack is being handled, what enquiries that have been held have absolved the Labour Party and no accusation can possibly be made until the matter has been gone into fully - except by you, it seems, tat appears to be the way you work.
As I said, the Conservative Party is the traditional home of British Antisemitism and it would take a complete groundshift to alter that position.
The term 'Antisemitism' has been rendered totally meaningless by the Israeli policy of hiding behind it to defend its own State terrorist activities.
Claims are now coming from Israel that any criticism of Israeli policy is automatically Antisemitic - why do you refuse to address that fact (rhetorical question - I know why)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 16 - 02:59 AM

As for me allegedly failing to provide examples (of my misquoting), I've done it in this thread until I'm blue in the face.

No you have not.
If you are not lying, produce an example now.

Pfr, please discuss the issues instead of getting all personal and nasty.

My case is that Labour people have accused other Labour people of antisemitism, backed it with quotes, and have not misquoted anyone.

I am offline now for a few days.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Jun 16 - 06:26 PM

Keith - it's clicked now..

you remind me of when i did voluntary work in my last year of A levels nearly 40 years ago..

A middle aged bloke in a suit who'd lost his business and family..

He sat in the waiting room of our community project office with a brief case clutched tight in his arms....

Anyone who made the mistake of sitting next to him, endured his life story and misfortunes, as he unravelled the contents of his brief case....

We in the office soon enough wised up to this and tried our best to be sympathetic, whilst avoiding his brief case being opened.....

Point of recognition is, he had failed to cope with reality and blamed unknown and unseen forces in the government and space and time
for all his personal problems relating to the rest of us....

weird mad old world.... innit... 🤔

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jun 16 - 06:19 PM

You're a very sad case, Keith. Read what Jim has said. He has comprehensively demolished you. As for me allegedly failing to provide examples, I've done it in this thread until I'm blue in the face. You are the only person here who refuses to see it. People ask me why I bother. Well I'll tell you. You wreck every debate here that you join in with. I'd rather like you to stop doing it, preferably by butting out, so that decent people can discuss difficult issues without the automatic insertion of your bigotry.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 16 - 02:41 PM

No-one claims there is a major problem, so you made that up,

They said it was a "serious issue."
I did not say "major problem" so you made that up.

You didn't and still haven't - once again, this is all your own work
You have produced a couple who have been identified directly with Isreali propaganda organisations.

Sadiq Khan and the entire NEC!

I dispute "Israeli propaganda organisations" anyway.
Being pro-Israel, as most people are, does not mean your views on antisemitism can be dismissed.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 16 - 01:30 PM

Keith
Been through all your links
Many are based on definition of Antisemitism, around a quarter of them are repeated
Nowhere is there any indication of the "many labour party members" you claim, so you made that up.
No-one claims there is a major problem, so you made that up,
Some complain of how it is being dealt with, though do not suggest it is widespread.
Not doing too well so far
The only two who have made direct accusations are Jonathan Sacerdoti, the BBC's self-admitted Pro Israeli mole and Jim Brown – extreme right winger and member of Pro-Israeli propaganda organisations.
Apart from that, nothing to indicate there is a problem, all your own work – smoke and mirrors.
When you claimed you had linked to there being a problem – you lied (again)
"It's getting to be a habit with you " as the old song says.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 16 - 11:46 AM

"I quoted prominent Labour people who said that there is."
You didn't and still haven't - once again, this is all your own work
You have produced a couple who have been identified directly with Isreali propaganda organisations.
Nobody who can be trusted not to have an agenda has claimed there to be a serious problem - if they have, you have failed to identify them.
Any time such and accusation is made it is necessary to investigate it and any fair minded individual would not pass judgement until an unbiased conclusion was arrived at.
Such enquiries that have been made so far have exonorated the Labour Party - no evidence has been produced to show theer to be a problem, serious or otherwise
You totally invented the "a lot of Labour members are disturbed" - no such claim has ever been made.
As I said, the "leading figures" have all been traced back to the Israeli Propagands industry.
Once again, you are making things up - that seems to be what you
SADIQ KHAN has himself been linked to antisemitism through his (claimed ) association with Islamists, so, coupled with the mayoral competition, it is little wonder that he should bend over backwards to appease the Israeli supporters.
"I substantiated it with actual quotes!!"
No you havent unless you regard a coupe of unidentified names as
"a lot of Labour members.
Ther is no evidence whatever that there is a problem with Antisemitism in the Labour Pary - none, and nor can there be until the matter is investigated fully and fairly - which totally lets you our of being selected for any such jury.
The Conservative Party is the traditional home of British Antisemitism - not the Labour Party
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 16 - 11:22 AM

Pfr,
... did I ????

Yes. You acknowledged that I was a victim of a smear campaign, saying it should make me empathise with other such victims (though I disputed the example you gave).

If you do not accept that I am such a victim, you must believe that I am guilty of misquoting on this.
Steve has failed to produce any examples, so perhaps you can.

But, good luck with your mum and her problems.

Jim,
You opened this thread and contnued it by inferring that there was a serious problem of Antisemitism in the ranks of the Labour Party - there isn't.

I quoted prominent Labour people who said that there is.

What there is is a need to address accusations of Antisemitism made by identified supporters of the Israeli regime

Sadiq Khan?
The Labour Party National Executive Committee?

You claim that a lot of Labour members are disturbed "Lots of Labour members and its NEC say there is a problem," yet you have ignored requests to substantiate this claim

I substantiated it with actual quotes!!
Which would you like me to repeat?

Re. the rest of your post, this is not about Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 16 - 09:03 AM

"If you are right you could produce examples of what you accuse me of."
You accuse others of making this "about me" - now you are diverting this away from the main topic and making it about you.
You opened this thread and contnued it by inferring that there was a serious problem of Antisemitism in the ranks of the Labour Party - there isn't.
What there is is a need to address accusations of Antisemitism made by identified supporters of the Israeli regime
It is dishonest of you not to address that fact - that is distorting the real picture of what is now happening.
You claim that a lot of Labour members are disturbed "Lots of Labour members and its NEC say there is a problem," yet you have ignored requests to substantiate this claim - that is distorting the real picture of what is now happening.
You have thrown your weight fully behind what appears to be a part of the $1B dollar propaganda campaign launched by Israel to make any critisism of its policies 'Antisemitic' - that is distorting the real picture of what is now happening.
To date, a few members have been found to choose their words unwisely in criticising the genocidal policy of the Israeli regime - hardly surprising when the Israeli leaders themselves are in the forefront of identifying their extremist policies with The Jewish People as a whole, even though some of the greatest critics of that policy are Jewish - now disgustingly described as "self--hating Jews - these include Holocaust survivors and their families, ex heads of Mossad, an Army General, part of the Israeli press, groups like Jews for Justice and Rabbis for Justice and leading Jewish intellectuals GOIINNG BACK AS FAR AS Einstein and his collegues- all "self-hating Jews".
One Israeli Minister has described any criticism of Israel as ANTISEMITIC
That is terrifying and harks back to the rise on the Nazi regime in Germany.
Yesterday it was claimed that Netanyahu took a MILLION EURO BRIBE from a financier – Israel's current logic is that it is Antisemitic to draw attention to this fact - (virtually admitted by him though he excuses it by saying he used it to win an election)
Israel has succeeded in distorting the term Anti-Semitism to protect itself from human rights and crimes against humanity charges.
In doing to it has put the lives of Jews throughout the world at risk and the fact that it has chosen the British Labour Party as a target threatens our own parliamentary democracy.
You have made yourself part of that campaign and that is unforgivable.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Jun 16 - 08:52 AM

... did I ????

.. and what exactly has Steve been consistently saying about you misquoting and distoring what people actually say.....????? 😣

Btw.. you two have fun together..
it's thursday, I'm off on a train to try to sort out my old mum's regular problems with her falling apart at the seems local NHS health clinic...

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 16 - 08:38 AM

...but thanks for backing me on Steve's smear campaign.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 16 - 08:36 AM

errrmmm.. so maybe now you might understand a little of how the Labour Party feels after being maliciously branded anti semites.

errrmmm...no, because they never have been by anyone.
The accusations I quoted came from within the Labour Party, and merely suggested that the far left had a problem with it.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Jun 16 - 07:08 AM

"You could not challenge what I said so you launch a lying and mendacious smear campaign against me personally."

Keith - errrmmm.. so maybe now you might understand a little of how the Labour Party feels after being maliciously branded anti semites...????? 🙄

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 16 - 04:32 AM

No need to poll.
If you are right you could produce examples of what you accuse me of.
But you can't.

You could not challenge what I said so you launch a lying and mendacious smear campaign against me personally.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jun 16 - 03:43 PM

Well I suppose we could always conduct a poll to see who's right. Oh wait - no - I forgot that your best friend uses secret multiple identities...not fair...

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 16 - 02:45 PM

Steve, you accused me "Keith, you deliberately misquote all the time."

So why can you only produce one example, from a year and a half ago, that has been rebutted several times already and has been again?!

You also accused me of misquoting on this thread, but you have produced no examples at all!
You can't because it is not true.

I invite anyone here, both pro-Steve and anti-Steve, to investigate the things I've said about Keith's lack of truthfulness.

I invite them too.
They could start with your false accusations about this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jun 16 - 05:34 AM

It's a notable feature of most online forums I've experienced that mistakes that are promptly admitted to and corrected are never commented on again. Conversely, people who are too proud or too pig-headed to backtrack rapidly attract a reputation of untrustworthiness and lack of credibility about everything they assert.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jun 16 - 05:24 AM

That's all right then Steve
Don't let this pair of clowns waste time in trying to recoup old losses
You want examples of your misquotes an lies Keith - go to the Easter Week thread - plenty listed there without having to search them out.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jun 16 - 05:18 AM

Done and dusted at 05.51am yesterday, Keith. Keep your 'air on. Just 'cos you don't like it doesn't mean I didn't say it.

Worry not, Jim. I'm not embarking on that old WWI argument. Just illustrating with an particularly egregious example of Keith's dissembling why nothing he ever says can be trusted. I suppose we all know that anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jun 16 - 05:08 AM

"The contention of both Keith A, myself and others, was that that was not true and no German officer ever said that, you and your pals were of the opinion that the quote was factual. After his book had been published and Clark was challenged on this supposed quote, Clark himself admitted that he had just made it up. Now if that is not predicating an argument on a falsehood then I do not know what is."

Oh please, Teribus. You appear to have caught Keithitis. Never in my life have I claimed that that quote was "factual." Also, arguing that the fighting forces were not well-led, even if that phrase was brought into the argument, would not be predicating the argument on a falsehood. It's a colourful phrase that some would contend has a grain of truth about the situation in the war, even if the bloke who said it was lying about its origin. It is a point of view expressed in metaphorical terms that many people hold. Suppose there was an "A" Level question like this: "It has been stated that the British forces in WW1 were lions led by donkeys. Discuss." Would that be an invalid question?

I must commend you for admitting after all this time that Keith made a mistake. Did he sanction your confession, and are you now going to get him to admit to it himself? 😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 16 - 04:34 AM

Easily resolved Jim.
Let Steve produce the misquotes he accuses me of.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jun 16 - 03:38 AM

For crying out loud lads - I'm not one to complain about "thread drift" but WW*******1.
We know who tells lies and we know who are the first to accuse others of doing so (one and the same)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 16 - 03:37 AM

Steve, you have produced something from a 2014 thread, but nothing from this thread to support your false accusations.
Here they are again, in case you forgot.

Keith, you deliberately misquote all the time.

Then produce one. Do not just refer to it as if it was true, produce it.

and you did it again over Jackie Walker in this thread.

Again, if that is not another lying smear, PRODUCE THE MISQUOTE!!

You ascribe statements to people that they haven't made,

Again, if that is not another lying smear, PRODUCE A MISQUOTE!!

Confident prediction, none will be produced.
It is all just lying smears because you have nothing else.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Jun 16 - 03:20 AM

"I may be a bombastic, uncompromising leftie pillock, but I can't ever see the point of predicating arguments on falsehoods."

Really Steve? The Wheatcroft thing, IIRC one of the points under discussion was Alan Clark's "The Donkeys" and his use of the infamous and totally fictional quote attributed to an extremely senior German Staff Office in which he was supposed to have commented that the British Army were, "Lions led by Donkeys". The contention of both Keith A, myself and others, was that that was not true and no German officer ever said that, you and your pals were of the opinion that the quote was factual. After his book had been published and Clark was challenged on this supposed quote, Clark himself admitted that he had just made it up. Now if that is not predicating an argument on a falsehood then I do not know what is.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Jun 16 - 03:09 AM

Steve Shaw - 07 Jun 16 - 11:23 AM

Just an example of you dancing on the head of a pin Steve. It served your purposes to divert from the content of the thread which was about the First World War in which you and your pals were being hammered by fact after fact that none of you could counter, your other tactic back in those days was after it became obvious that you had lost the historical argument you did everything you could to get the thread closed.

And if I remember it correctly Keith A after having quoted the passage in full correctly, the first time the article was drawn to our attention, he then inadvertently mixed the "vulgar" and the "fraudulent". Most reasonable people would know by what he had said previously that an honest mistake had been made, everyone else having read the previous post knew exactly what he meant. In the past you and your pals have made more than enough of the same sort of errors - yet for some weird reason you give yourselves a free pass on them, wonder why that is?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 05:09 PM

By the way, forum and the world in general, I may be a lot of things, doubtless some of them bad, but I never tell lies. I may be a bombastic, uncompromising leftie pillock, but I can't ever see the point of predicating arguments on falsehoods. I invite anyone here, both pro-Steve and anti-Steve, to investigate the things I've said about Keith's lack of truthfulness. Admittedly, it can take some effort in digging up old threads, and I'd never expect anyone to have the energy or motivation to do it. I can do no more than refer you to the points made by me in this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 03:44 PM

My God, Keith, how you wriggle and struggle. Do you think that everyone here is so thick that they can't see what you're doing? Have you no friends who can help you out here, have a word in your shell-like? You are an incredibly sad case, old chap. If I wasn't such a confounded bloody heathen, Keith, I think I'd be praying for you. Tough shit. No such prayers coming in your direction from me. Maybe I'll sacrifice a dead sausage on the barbie in your honour instead. You'll have to manage with whatever prayerfulness bobad can provide, but I have a feeling that the good Lord liveth not in his abode...

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 02:43 PM

""Irish stand down" is a type of traditional bare knuckle fighting where the aspect of maneuvering around the ring is removed,
leaving only the less nuanced aspects of punching and "taking" punches.
This form of combat was popular in Irish American ghettos in the United States in the late 19th century
but was eclipsed in the Irish American community first by bare knuckle boxing and then later by regulation boxing.
The Irish stand down is also known as strap fighting or toe to toe."

.. round one hundred and seventy six...!!!

.. the few remaining spectators are starting to inch further away closer to refreshment wagon..... 🙄

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 02:05 PM

Wheatcroft dismissed both works using two derogatory words.
Having quoted them both originally, I did not need to keep doing so.

Steve has tried the same false accusation on many threads now.
Every time that his case is knocked down and he has nothing else.

Steve can not produce any of the misquotes he accused me of making on this thread.
He can't.
He lied.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 11:23 AM

Oh dear. And then you said he said they were both "fraudulent." See above. He didn't. I proved that you said he said it and I proved that he never said it. What more can a chap do. Do you see it now, Keith? A misquote by any measure you like, saying that he said they were both "fraudulent" when he actually said nothing of the sort. It doesn't matter what you said in your other posts. In that post you were badly wrong. You see, Keith, this is your problem. When confronted with the stark reality you simply can't take it on board. A very bad character trait, and the reason we can't trust a single thing you ever say. What a way to live, Keith. It would be nice to be not called a liar by a liar when I'm telling the whole truth, by the way. Face it, Keith. you've made yourself a laughing stock.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 10:32 AM

RE: WWI, was No-Man's Land
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 03:55 PM

Yesterday's Guardian.

"That series had been preceded in 1963 by AJP Taylor's rather vulgar book, The First World War: An Illustrated History, and Oh, What a Lovely War!, Joan Littlewood's musical pasquinade. The latter, which used the songs the Tommies had sung in the trenches, drew on Alan Clark's 1961 book The Donkeys – a largely fraudulent book, whose title derives from an invented quotation about "lions led by donkeys", that nevertheless made a mark.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 10:21 AM

I'll take this one too, to extend my coverage on claiming 666, in case of thread 'adjustments'..

Though if Keith slipping in there, grabs it from under my nose...????

oh well..

..and here's me doing my good deed of the day to help protect any christian posters from the number of the beast...

..and I don't mean Boris.. 😇

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 10:08 AM

Steve can not produce any of the misquotes he accused me of making here.
He lied.

I made the post he just quoted from 2014, but I had already linked to and quoted the relevant passage in full.
I did not quote it in full every time I referred to it.
So I did not misquote in 2014, and all his accusations of me misquoting here are lies.
He tries to smear me because he can not challenge anything I have actually said.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 09:36 AM

.. or that one.. or this one...

[insurance post in case Steve's duplicate is tidied up... 🙄]

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 09:31 AM

ps.. that last contribution of mine was post number 666....😈

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 09:16 AM

Keith - This is like one of those old time bare knuckle fights which lasted for far too many rounds, never an end in sight...
.. until the last stubborn dazed and confused pugilist remained standing a triumphant few seconds
before he also collapsed exhausted into welcome oblivion..... 😜

.. I reckon any Labour Party inquiries will be long time completely done and dusted,
while you are still repeating the same old loop of accusations and denials here in this thread...????


Btw.. this is actually a new experience that we all have to adjust to, not having a thread closed or deleted
while grudge matches are still fuming, not yet on the wane.....

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 08:31 AM

OK, one more time, Keith, for the delectation and entertainment of anyone left here still reading.

What Keith said in the thread "I'm not an historian, but..." on 16.12.2014 at 12.59:

"The Guardian last week described the work of Clark and Taylor as 'fraudulent'."

What Geoffrey Wheatcroft actually wrote in his Guardian article "The Myth of the Good War" on 9.12.2014, and what Keith was referring to:

"That series had been preceded in 1963 by AJP Taylor's rather vulgar book, The First World War: An Illustrated History, and Oh, What a Lovely War!, Joan Littlewood's musical pasquinade. The latter, which used the songs the Tommies had sung in the trenches, drew on Alan Clark's 1961 book The Donkeys – a largely fraudulent book, whose title derives from an invented quotation about 'lions led by donkeys', that nevertheless made a mark."

Note, good people, Keith's use of quote marks there. A perfect example of how Keith "modifies" his quoting in order to fit his agenda. In the very next post I challenged Keith's version. For weeks afterwards, as you can see if you bother to read the thread, he refused to accept that he had misrepresented Wheatcroft in his post. Unbelievable, eh? Busted, disgusting, can't be trusted.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 08:30 AM

OK, one more time, Keith, for the delectation and entertainment of anyone left here still reading.

What Keith said in the thread "I'm not an historian, but..." on 16.12.2014 at 12.59:

"The Guardian last week described the work of Clark and Taylor as 'fraudulent'."

What Geoffrey Wheatcroft actually wrote in his Guardian article "The Myth of the Good War" on 9.12.2014, and what Keith was referring to:

"That series had been preceded in 1963 by AJP Taylor's rather vulgar book, The First World War: An Illustrated History, and Oh, What a Lovely War!, Joan Littlewood's musical pasquinade. The latter, which used the songs the Tommies had sung in the trenches, drew on Alan Clark's 1961 book The Donkeys – a largely fraudulent book, whose title derives from an invented quotation about 'lions led by donkeys', that nevertheless made a mark."

Note, good people, Keith's use of quote marks there. A perfect example of how Keith "modifies" his quoting in order to fit his agenda. In the very next post I challenged Keith's version. For weeks afterwards, as you can see if you bother to read the thread, he refused to accept that he had misrepresented Wheatcroft in his post. Unbelievable, eh? Busted, disgusting, can't be trusted.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 08:00 AM

Wither the Labour Party. 😜😜😜

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 07:08 AM

"Produce it," Keith? I've produced everything I've caught you doing over and over again. That latest post of yours is just you making a complete fool of yourself. Read my post again. It's all there, and it's all in the threads down the years.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 07:04 AM

And I think you should be ashamed of yourself. You cheated everyone on this board by being both bobad and an anonymous, name-calling Guest. Your "humour" is misplaced. Maybe Keith's laughing, who knows.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 06:42 AM

I think the thread title should be changed to "Wither the Labour Party". 😜😜😜

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 06:18 AM

Steve, you again post lots of accusations but nothing to back them.
If I have misquoted anyone, produce it!
Do not just refer to it as if it was true, PRODUCE IT!

. In this thread you misquoted Jackie Butler by leaving relevant parts of her remarks out in a clear attempt to make what she said look worse than it was. It's all up there in the thread.

Produce it then!

Wheatcroft?
You can not deny that I had quoted Wheatcroft accurately and in full back in 2014.
No need to misquote because he supported my case. That is why I quoted him, accurately and in full.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 05:51 AM

Well now, Teribus wades in with his "secret suspensions" angle. Google "Labour secret suspensions", or "Labour 50 suspensions", what do you get? No, really try it! The Daily Torygraph and a bunch of references to the Israeli press bigging up the "secrecy," or something in the Sun. Isn't it amazing how the "secret" didn't last! You see, Teribus, there is a difference between, on the one hand, doing a big secret conspiratorial cover-up thing and, on the other hand, not shouting names from the rooftops of people who are being investigated but not yet shown to be guilty of anything. The Labour Party has recognised that there is an issue and is taking action to investigate it and ultimately root out anyone shown to be guilty. I call that highly responsible. The Catholic Church has been riddled with antisemitism for centuries. Do you think we need an enquiry then? What about the Tories? UKIP? Who's being responsible?

You want examples of your misquotes, Keith? Geoffrey Wheatcroft wrote about AJP Taylor's book being rather vulgar and Clark's being largely fraudulent. You very helpfully " interpreted" that for us by telling us that he'd said they were both fraudulent. That's what you said, in one of your posts. You refused to correct this serious misrepresentation over and over again. In fact, you told us it was OK because you'd quoted the quote elsewhere and in any case were "only speaking generally." In other words, it's fine to lie in one place as long as you tell the truth in another. Well I call that totally unreliable and untrustworthy behaviour, and I won't drop it until you acknowledge the error, after which I'll never mention it again. In this thread you misquoted Jackie Butler by leaving relevant parts of her remarks out in a clear attempt to make what she said look worse than it was. It's all up there in the thread. I took you to pieces on that and, again, you failed to acknowledge your error. You tried to bracket me with people who I said are ardently pro-Israel by omitting "ardently," a clear misrepresentation. This is what you do, and we spend half the bloody time not debating with you but telling you to tell the truth. You lied over and over again this thread about EU "antisemitism guidelines" that are no such thing, but Keith dearly loves them and wants them to be real, but the only "proof" he could provide was that an internal EU quango was still using them unofficially, a setup that is "advised" by a whole bunch of pro-Israel lobby groups. And to cap it all you enthusiastically ally yourself to the most fraudulent bigot on this board. You seriously need to sort yourself out, mate.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 05:00 AM

"I have said that Labour has a problem with antisemitism, according to many senior members."
Of course you "have to say" that;'s the kind of feller you are.

I said it because it is an indisputable fact.

Apparently you have to produce no proof, that's the kind of feller you are too

I did produce proof, in the form of actual quotes of senior Labour members stating that Labour has a problem with antisemitism.

Now, what about those "misquotes" Jim?
You were just lying because you have nothing else.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 04:54 AM

What about those "misquotes" Jim.
Can you produce one?
No you can't.
Just lying smears because you have nothing else.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 04:29 AM

"What exactly is the basis for your statement that "there is a twisted anti-Semitism amongst many of the Labour Party members""

I have heard it often from comrades who appear to be perfectly reasonable on most other political issues.

To resolve the problem one must use pragmatism.......the "liberal left" is not noted for this virtue, they are ideologically programmed.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 04:07 AM

"So what were 50 members suspended for? What are they under investigation for by the Labour Party compliance unit?"
I would have though that obvious - even to you - an accusation has been made and is in need of investigation?
I would have been irresponsible to have done otherwise.
No problems with investigations - I wonder how many members of the Tory Party would be under investigation in the unthinkable situation of their having such an enquiry.
The right is the traditional home of Antisemitism (6 million witnesses attest to this fact).
Anti-Semitic Tories were putting together a provisional government for when "Herr Hitler" won the day while the people of Britain were huddled in their air-raid shelters.   
As they say - "home is where the heart is"
"I have said that Labour has a problem with antisemitism, according to many senior members."
Of course you "have to say" that;'s the kind of feller you are.
Apparently you have to produce no proof, that's the kind of feller you are too
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 03:56 AM

So what were 50 members suspended for? What are they under investigation for by the Labour Party compliance unit? Or do the usual suspects really believe that the 50 suspended members were the subjects of a smear campaign mounted by Keith A of Hertford or bobad?

Mr Shaw your questions should be directed towards the Compliance Unit of the Labour Party, not members of this forum who are only reading the news as it unfolds. Care to explain why the suspension of these 50 members was carried out in secret? I mean if the leadership truly believed the charges to be groundless why opt for this total lack of transparency?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 03:45 AM

I have said that Labour has a problem with antisemitism, according to many senior members.

That is an indisputable fact, and because you can not challenge it, you resort to personal smears as usual.

Jim,
You have been misquoting throughout

Again, if that is not another lying smear, PRODUCE A MISQUOTE!!

Steve,
Keith, you deliberately misquote all the time.

Then produce one. Do not just refer to it as if it was true, produce it.

I exposed you over Geoffrey Wheatcroft, one of the most shameful episodes of persistent lying ever seen on this forum,

You claimed it back in 2014, but you can not deny that I had quoted Wheatcroft accurately and in full. No need to misquote because he supported my case. That is why I quoted him, accurately and in full.

and you did it again over Jackie Walker in this thread.

Again, if that is not another lying smear, PRODUCE THE MISQUOTE!!

You ascribe statements to people that they haven't made,

Again, if that is not another lying smear, PRODUCE A MISQUOTE!!

Confident prediction, none will be produced.
It is all just lying smears because you have nothing else.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 03:02 AM

Do you have the slightest evidence for this statement or is it your suggestion that anybody who champions Palestine is automatically 'Antisemitic'?
There is no evidence at present that anybody under scrutiny in the Labour Party ia guilty of Antisemitism and all the usual suspect here have come up with are innuendos generated, beyond a shred of doubt, by the Israeli propaganda machine - they are traceable back to Pro-Israeli propaganda organisations.
It seems you are a willing supporter of that Pro-Israeli propaganda.
You have now weighed in with exactly the same sort of innuendo.
What exactly is the basis for your statement that "there is a twisted anti-Semitism amongst many of the Labour Party members" - do you have any evidence on this and are you going to offer any of that evidence to any enquiry to be held - of course you haven't and you certainly aren't going to offer it here.
If more evidence were needed that this whole thing has been generated by pro-Israel propaganda, you have just given it - "championing the cause of the Palestinian people" - "shamelessly abused by their own successive leadership" - " and Global political groupings," - the very language of propaganda.
Many thanks for putting this whole issue exactly where it belonged from the beginning, the Labour Party Vs Antisemitism should read 'the progressive people of Britain vs Israeli Apartheid regime's propaganda.
For all its faults and flaws, The Labour Party was created by the working people of Britain to protect its rights and better its conditions - it is little wonder that you have joined the side you have in this squalid bovver-boy kicking match.
As for being rude to Keith - perhaps you might like the total number of times he has used the term "liar" to describe members of this forum over the last couple of weeks - another candidate for the Guinness Book of Records.
I'm off to visit another thread now where, I have little doubt, there will be additions, if not yet, shortly.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 02:13 AM

You two certainly are your own cheerleaders.
Try addressing the serious points being made without the abusive insulting tone.

Seems to me that there is a twisted anti-Semitism amongst many of the Labour Party members who have invested most of their political lives in championing the cause of the Palestinian people......the truth seems to me that the Palestinians have been shamelessly abused by their own successive leadership AND Global political groupings, who's interests have been advanced by continuing the dispute.

The whole issue could and should have been brought to a conclusion decades ago.......Anti-Semitism is a symptom of years of hypocrisy.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 08:00 PM

Can't argue with that, Steve.

Be well,

G.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 07:35 PM

Very true,Greg, very true. But these guys, who set the tone for this forum, are actually easy meat. The Keith/bobad axis has never got a leg to stand on. Their modus operandi is to lie and misrepresent. I mean, bobad, as we all know too well, is a rather brainless forum cheat, but Keith...ah, Keith... Well, he's solidly in bed with bobad, having defended him several times, in spite of his slurs and his utter hypocrisy and cowardice in assuming a second, secret identity with which to attack decent people. We already know about bobad, who is a shallow, mindless,cheating bigot, but Keith? Well, Keith can define himself as far as I'm concerned. The rest of us can define him by his shallow friends, his Israel sycophancy and the dishonest nonsense he invariably posts here.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 07:14 PM

I don't need to give it up, Greg. My skull is steel-lined.....

Yeah, Steve, but is it worth your time?

You can't cure stupid, and you can't educate pork.

;>)

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 05:44 PM

Keith, you deliberately misquote all the time. I exposed you over Geoffrey Wheatcroft, one of the most shameful episodes of persistent lying ever seen on this forum, and you did it again over Jackie Walker in this thread. You want to believe in the alleged Labour antisemitism so you prune and trim the quotes to make it look as bad as possible and yiu keep it going for week after week after week. I demonstrated precisely what you do way up this thread, there for all to see. You ascribe statements to people that they haven't made, anything to twist things round to your bigoted agenda. If you had any decency at all about you, and had even the slightest regard for your own integrity, you would disown that dishonest forum cheat who is your only ally, but you are silent about that. Speaks volumes. Your only friend is a man who scurrilously calls decent people antisemites and Jew-haters and who is known for hiding behind a secret second identity. But you're perfectly happy to have him supporting you. Well that leaves us in no doubt whatsoever as to what kind of man you are, and it isn't nice.

I don't need to give it up, Greg. My skull is steel-lined, I have the hide of a rhino and I can get very bloody-minded when I want to be, especially when confronted with blatant dishonesty and bigotry.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 05:04 PM

Accusing members of this forum of Anti-Antisemitism is as smeary as it gets

Hah.......this from someone who is quick to scream Islamophobe at members.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 03:10 PM

"If that is not another lie, produce it Jim."
You have been misquoting throughout - particularly by claiming that people regard there to be a problem when they can't possibly know if their is one until an enquiry has been held
Do not call me a lair at a time when yours are choking you - here and elsewhere.
I really don't need to tell lies - you have consistently destroyed your own case, again, here and elsewhere.
Your kneekjerk reaction to facts is to call me a liar - that's infantile
That's simply not true - you have done so for as long as I can remember, quite often with a question mark "antisemitism"
Your squalid running mate can't stop himself even though he knows it's antisemitic to do so.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 02:27 PM

Correction - should read "misquoted"

If that is not another lie, produce it Jim.

Accusing members of this forum of Anti-Antisemitism is as smeary as it gets - you do it all the time.

I never have, except that I identified Richard's comment about Jewish influence as antisemitic.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 01:49 PM

"I have just quoted prominent Labour people."
Correction - should read "misquoted"
"I have not smeared or even accused any individual."
Accusing members of this forum of Anti-Antisemitism is as smeary as it gets - you do it all the time.
"Keith, the more they're trying to whitewash the anti-semitism the deeper the hole they're digging for themselves"
And the more you accuse critics of Israel of being Anti-Semitic, the more Anti-Semitic you become.
Who has attacked the Jewish peole here on this thread (answer - with quotes or be exposed as a liar)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 01:35 PM

I have not smeared or even accused any individual.
I have just quoted prominent Labour people.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 12:46 PM

You can't keep smearing people then refusing to back up your claims.

Why sure they can, Steve! That's what they've always done - with BeardedBozo, TeriToon and one or two others joining in the chorus from time to time. Same old same old.

Give it up - your head's getting bloody from being beaten against that brick wall of stupidity, ignorance and general pig-headedness.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 11:22 AM

Steve,
You know bloody well that you believe the claims otherwise you wouldn't have been prattling on about them for week after week.

I said I believe the claims.
I said, "It is my opinion that all those high profile Labour people would not make up their claims of antisemitism.
I do now believe that Labour has a serious problem with it, but only because of the testimony of all those people in a position to know, which I readily admit I am not."

What grounds do you have for dismissing their claims Steve?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 10:12 AM

"Keith, the more they're trying to whitewash the anti-semitism the deeper the hole they're digging for themselves. Clearly they have to deny it otherwise they would have to admit to it themselves as they adhere to the same views."

What views, please? And who are "they" that adhere to these views, that is, are antisemites? Let's have a full list of names, please, and let's have evidence from any our quotes that we're antisemitic. You weren't courageous enough to post openly when you were being a dishonest, cheating Guest poster with two identities for cover, so let's see if you're brave enough now to give us your full list of forum antisemites, with backup of course.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 10:00 AM

I am whitewashing nothing and denying nothing. If you think, either of you, that anyone in the Labour Party has shown themselves to be an antisemite by dint of something they have said, I want to know from you exactly who and precisely what you think was antisemitic about what they said. You can't keep smearing people then refusing to back up your claims. And please don't lie to us yet again telling us with a shrug that it isn't you, you're just the messenger boy, etc. You know bloody well that you believe the claims otherwise you wouldn't have been prattling on about them for week after week. Either you can do what I'm asking or you're making up stuff as you go along, or you're frightened of getting sued for defamation or something, who knows why you're both being so cowardly about it. As a matter of fact, the "serious problem" for Labour is being kept on the boil only by bigots like you two - actually, Labour is showing itself to be highly responsible in the way it is investigating the allegations. I suggest you both stop moaning about it and wait for the outcome of the enquiries. Which you'll doubtless tell us were a big fix. *Yawn*

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 08:51 AM

Keith, the more they're trying to whitewash the anti-semitism the deeper the hole they're digging for themselves. Clearly they have to deny it otherwise they would have to admit to it themselves as they adhere to the same views.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 07:52 AM

Steve,
. I asked for your OPINIONS, not your "assertions".

It is my opinion that all those high profile Labour people would not make up their claims of antisemitism.
I do now believe that labour has a serious problem with it, but only because of the testimony of all those people in a position to know, which I readily admit I am not.

So where in your statement does it say "alleged antisemitism?"

So where in any of their statements does it say "alleged antisemitism?"

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 06:03 AM

I want you to stop telling lies. I asked for your OPINIONS, not your "assertions". You need to stop relaying other people's assertions as if you were a shrugging Pontius Pilate clone, and start thinking for yourself.

"What antisemitism?" - "None, Steve..."

So what does this mean, then, Keith?

"No. It shows that he knows of antisemitism that Corbyn has done nothing about."

"None," eh? So where in your statement does it say "alleged antisemitism?" Your statement clearly indicates that the antisemitism, to your mind, is a fact. So I ask you again. IN YOUR OPINION, who are these Labour antisemites and precisely what did they say that was antisemitic? Stop kidding us, Keith. You believe that this antisemitism exists. You've been babbling on about Labour's "problem" for weeks. So it's about time you came clean and told us WHAT YOU THINK. I've told you what I think - that it's a concerted ploy to tarnish a party with a left-wing leader. That, like any organisation, including your Church and the Tories, there will be a few rotten apples. There will also be people who need educating in how to watch their mouths. But Labour is not an antisemitic party. And don't lie to us by telling us that Corbyn is "doing nothing." There is a damn sight more going on in Labour to investigate and root out alleged antisemitism than in all the smugly-watching organisations that you favour combined.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 03:49 AM

Pfr, I appreciate your concern, but it is misplaced, at least in terms of dementia.
I am indeed unwell, but with a cancer that has no symptoms until near the end.

Steve,
What antisemitism, Keith? Spell it out for us, please, Keith. Give us chapter and verse about the antisemitism which, IN YOUR OPINION, no-one else's if you don't mind, you have PERSONALLY detected in the Labour Party.

None Steve. I do not monitor the tweets and statements of left wing politicos.

Not the ones from newspapers or your usual pro-Israel sources, just from in your own head.

I do not make assertions just from my own head Steve.
I have quoted high profile people within Labour who are quite clear that there is an antisemitism problem within Labour.
Not from "newspapers or your usual pro-Israel sources."

Among those I have quoted saying that there is a problem are the newly elected Labour Mayor of London, the former leader of the Scottish Labour Party, and the whole of the Labour Party National Executive Committee!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Jun 16 - 10:56 PM

I should be in bed - but it's too hot and stuffy.. and I have indigestion....

Keith - Please believe I am not saying any of this out of spite or wanting to hurt..

https://www.agingcare.com/Articles/respond-when-dementia-causes-elder-to-repeat-150912.htm


"As a group, seniors are known for repeating themselves.
Whether it's a story from their past, or an amusing joke they just heard, our aging loved ones have a tendency to say the same thing multiple times....

... However, there is a difference between an elder who repeats every once in a while, and an elder who has dementia and asks the same question multiple times
in a matter of minutes, or regales you with the same story several times in one day.
When this happens, it can be difficult for a frustrated caregiver to know how to respond, and how to get them to stop...."

I am overly aware and sensitive due to prevailing family circumstances...

I don't know your age or anything about your personal profile,
but I see signs that a closer friend or relative should not be so shy to bring to the attention
of at least a few mudcatters....

If I've raised an issue already of concern.. start by googling "dementia loop"


... or maybe [fingers crossed] you are fully compos mentis and are quite knowingly
employing the 'ignore what we say and repeat us into submission tactic'...


As a mudcat 'mate', who also enjoys robust argument I hope it's the latter.... 😐

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jun 16 - 07:17 PM

Cheers, pfr. It's about time we went for the bloody jugulars of these lying, prejudiced bloody hypocrites. Children die en masse at the hands of the IDF and they tell us that Hamas murdered those kids. Illegal Yankee cluster bomblets, strewn all over southern Lebanon in the hundreds of thousands by the IDF, blow the legs off hundreds of children playing in the fields to this day, and we get told by these two bastards that Hezbollah maimed those kids. Black is white, blood is paint, blood is paint, blood is paint. Let's keep calling it like it is. It helps that one of this disconsolate pair, bobad, is a massive cheat of everyone on this forum, and that Keith is his scurrilous apologist. That much is certain. We don't need these facts at our disposal, of course, but it does no harm to keep reminding ourselves of the ratbags that we're up against.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Jun 16 - 06:39 PM

Keith - we actually discussed this behaviour several threads ago when you let slip you were unwell.
But we didn't want to pry any further into your privacy.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Jun 16 - 06:33 PM

Keith - you've reached your usual inevitable mental blockage in your argument..

"rewind - repeat.. ignore/forget.. rewind - repeat.. ignore/forget.. rewind - repeat.. ignore/forget.. rewind - repeat.. ignore/forget.. rewind - repeat.. ignore/forget.. rewind - repeat.. ignore/forget.. rewind - repeat.. ignore/forget.. "

..are you actually aware you are doing this..???

I have to put up with my mother doing this all the time since she was diagnosed with memory loss and confusion.... 😣

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jun 16 - 06:25 PM

"No. It shows that he knows of antisemitism that Corbyn has done nothing about."

What antisemitism, Keith? Spell it out for us, please, Keith. Give us chapter and verse about the antisemitism which, IN YOUR OPINION, no-one else's if you don't mind, you have PERSONALLY detected in the Labour Party. Not the ones from newspapers or your usual pro-Israel sources, just from in your own head. Come on, Keith, piss or get off the pot. I want to know, right now, unadorned, who has said what that, IN KEITH'S OPINION, no-one else's, in the Labour Party that is antisemitic. Out with it. No quotes, no more of your vacillating, appealing-to-authority, pusillanimous bullshit. What antisemitism has your twitchy antennae picked up, Keith, and why do you think it's antisemitic? Time you got honest and answered, Keith. You really don't want us all thinking that you're no more than just another, simpering, prejudiced, lying, forum-cheating bobad clone, do you? Or do you!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Jun 16 - 06:01 PM

Among those I have quoted saying that there is a problem...

Yeak, Professor, but what do the live, eminent historians whose books are available in Blackstone's have to say?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jun 16 - 01:36 PM

Where is your evidence that there is a serious problem in the Labout party

Among those I have quoted saying that there is a problem are the newly elected Labour Mayor of London, the former leader of the Scottish Labour Party, and the whole of the Labour Party National Executive Committee!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jun 16 - 01:33 PM

"Jim, I have never claimed anything about Chakarbarti."]You put her up to suggest that she supported your case - she doesn't - you aer now back-pedaling - it's what you do.

Not true.
Her name just appeared incidentally in a quote I pasted in.
I had never typed her name before you made that false claim.

"He did accuse Corbyn of failing to call out Labour antisemitism."
That is a political criticism of how Corbyn acted, not a suggestion of any problem

No. It shows that he knows of antisemitism that Corbyn has done nothing about.

any Labour person who supports Israel is supporting an extremist terrorist State.

No liberal democracy or democratic party regards Israel as such.
Your assertion is based on nothing, and is false.

You have been given the Guardian comments - you ignore them

Yes, as you ignore the Guardian comments that say the opposite.

How dare you - where have I?

You appear to believe that we should dismiss the views on antisemitism of anyone who supports Israel.

You are the ones who link the Jewish people as a whole to Israeli war crimes, massacres and acts of terror - not me.

Like every liberal democracy in the world, I do not accept that Israel has committed any "war crimes, massacres and acts of terror."

I am not so gullible as to accept without question the propaganda of Israel's enemies.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Jun 16 - 09:34 AM

That should not prevent them speaking out against antisemitism.

However it SHOULD prevent "them from" INVENTING antisemitism and making accusations thereof where it doesnt exist.

I hope you recognise yourself as one of the latter "them", Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jun 16 - 06:16 AM

"Jim, I have never claimed anything about Chakarbarti."]You put her up to suggest that she supported your case - she doesn't - you aer now back-pedaling - it's what you do.
"Khan never said there was "no proof."
There is no proof and won't be until there is a proper enquiry - how can he or anybody claim anything until that happens?
"He did accuse Corbyn of failing to call out Labour antisemitism."
That is a political criticism of how Corbyn acted, not a suggestion of any problem - it has more to do with a forthcoming election than it did Antisemitism in the Labour Party.
""extremist right wingers in the Labour Party, "
Of course there are - you've been shown one - Tony Blair was another - plenty more examples in history (try Mosley) - any Labour person who supports Israel is supporting an extremist terrorist State.
Politics is no longer a calling, it's a career and it has been for a long time.
You have been given the Guardian comments - you ignore them
"People from all parties and political persuasions support Israel."
All parties have their share of extremists.
"That should not prevent them speaking out against antisemitism."
How dare you - where have I?
You are the ones who link the Jewish people as a whole to Israeli war crimes, massacres and acts of terror - not me.
Squalid as ever.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jun 16 - 04:05 AM

Jim, I have never claimed anything about Chakarbarti.
Khan never said there was "no proof."
He did accuse Corbyn of failing to call out Labour antisemitism.
There are no "extremist right wingers in the Labour Party, but there are extremiist left wingers.
People from all parties and political persuasions support Israel.
That should not prevent them speaking out against antisemitism.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 08:52 PM

Greg, this bobad bloke is the most scurrilous, lying, dishonest, piss-taking cheating bastard that this forum has ever had to endure. He pretended that he needed to be anonymous "in order that we address the issue, not the man," whilst simultaneously calling us Jew haters. That's what we're dealing with. He has never been chastised nor punished for his severe dishonesty, therefore I think that he should be attacked for his dissembling arch-bigotry every time he posts. And he needs to be careful, as one day I'll tell the racist bastard what I really think!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 07:02 PM

I assume you're referring to yourself, BooBad - however you're like the police in the Pirates of Penzance: "we go we go" --- yes, but you DON't go" ................

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 06:50 PM

Just ignore him and he'll go away, folks.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 05:42 PM

Dear Jesus and all the saints in heaven, not this same old mound of pigshit over again that anyone who criticizes the policies and actions of the current Israeli government is an "anti-semite".

The same old ignorant moron ideaologues that claim this are in the same category holocaust deniers, flat earthers, creationists, Trump Republicans and the host of others to whom facts are irrelevant.

DO NOT WASTE YOUR TIME ENGAGING THEM!!!

Better use of your time would be pounding salt down a rat hole.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 04:04 PM

"I never said she did."
You claimed it was and put her up as proof - more smoke and mirrors then?
"Yes it is quite right, and he accused Corbyn of failing to call out antisemitism in Labour"
He said there was no proof, as with Chakrabari, you claimed there was and put him up to show there was a serious problem - you lied.
"Rubbish. How can a lifelong Labour activist be "an extremist right winger?"
You mean Tony Blair was a socialist......!!!!!!
You've already had this but here goes again.
"He was the Chair of the Labour Friends of Israel from 2001 to 2002,[20] (describes as "less unquestioning in its support of the Israeli government than the Conservative Friends of Israel") and is a member of the Henry Jackson Society's Political Council.[21]
Wiik (link above)
"Lots of people, left and right wing and from all parties, are "pro-Israel.""
No left wingers have supported this Israeli regimes terrorism andf mass-murder, none - as you rightly say - "That is a ludicrous assertion. Ridiculous."
Off to follow PFR's example - Casualty beacons - dramatised bloodletting is far less stomach-heaving than this slef-inflicted masochistic nonsense.
Any sign of the proof for that serious problem yet Keith?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 04:01 PM

Good luck Pfr.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 02:11 PM

Just a hunch, but I've been suspicious of the ex tory MPs who fled the sinking ship
to join the Labour party as soon as Blair won and became Prime Minister....???

Jim - you have the research expertise and discipline that I lack, to establish how many are still remaining and active
within the Labour Party...


Keith - I'd like to stay and play but the wife has just got back from a stress busting away from it all week
with a retired lady travel companion, relaxing in the rain soaked channel islands...

She has come home refreshed and highly amorous..
I hope my back and knees hold out.. wish me luck.... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 01:58 PM

she Chakrabarti) has said that Antisemitism is "a serious issue"
I never said she did.
The NEC said it was "a serious issue" according to Labour List.

Sadiq Khan has not said their is a problem other than the row that has blown up might have affected his election as mayor - as your quote says ""If somebody is saying views that are appalling, disgusting and clearly anti-Semitic, I've got to call it out.", which is quite right

Yes it is quite right, and he accused Corbyn of failing to call out antisemitism in Labour.

"Former Scottish Labour leader, Jim Murphy" - is an extremist right winger

Rubbish. How can a lifelong Labour activist be "an extremist right winger?"
That is a ludicrous assertion. Ridiculous.

and a member of several pro-Israeli organisations.

So what?
Lots of people, left and right wing and from all parties, are "pro-Israel."
They are still allowed to object to anti-semitism.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 01:54 PM

I suggest that if the Labour Party has a problem then it is that it has been infiltrated by Extremist Right Wing, atrocity-denying Israeli supporters - maybe that should be the subject of an enquiry
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 01:51 PM

Keith - ok.. so a concerted effort from all directions in the media to publicly accuse Labour of antisemitism
succeeds in forcing the party to hold internal inquiries..

That is to be expected, on two counts..

1. the party takes this seriously enough to need to establish if this is true and root out miscreants.

2. the party is forced into a public display of PR damage limitation
to immediately show sincere willingness to address any alleged problem with said inquiries..

Labour resources and personnel are now tied up in distracting, divisive, time and money wasting, and most probably futile activity...

The sly organized enemies of Corby's Labour Leadership then immediately jump on these inquires as certain proof of anti semitism..

As dirty political tricks go.. this one is so obvious and simple in it's execution... Well done Keith et al... 🙄

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 01:42 PM

""Shami Chakrabarti,"
You are telling porkies acgain Keith - she has said that Antisemitism is "a serious issue" - she didn't say it was a serious issue within the Labour Party - nobody hass, nor could they until they ahve had the result of any enquiry they hold.
You are making it up.
Sadiq Khan has not said their is a problem other than the row that has blown up might have affected his election as mayor - as your quote says ""If somebody is saying views that are appalling, disgusting and clearly anti-Semitic, I've got to call it out.", which is quite right - he hasn't said there was a problem; as with Chakrabati. nobody can claim a problem until they have had the result of any enquiry they hold. - you are making it up.
"Former Scottish Labour leader, Jim Murphy" - is an extremist right winger and a member of several pro-Israeli organisations. - you've been told this before, with the links.
Is that it?
As I said, your making it up and why would a pro Israeli extreme right winger do anything else?
Where is your proof?
You live to smear, don't you Irish people - who you accuse of hating Britain (yet, like here, you can't even explain how that hate manifests itself), Irish kids, now Labour tr Party members .
Gawd save us from vitriol-throwing eejits!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 01:18 PM

Pfr,
You mean I am revealed as part of the global conspiracy.
Who betrayed me?

jim,
Where are any of them suggesting that there is a serious problem

The Labour NEC.
"Shami Chakrabarti, who will be chairing a wider ranging inquiry looking at anti-Semitism within the Labour Party. The entire NEC recognises the seriousness of this issue and is committed to addressing all the issues raised by these inquiries. "
http://labourlist.org/2016/05/alice-perrys-nec-report-corbyn-fighting-prejudice-and-listening-to-voters-online/

Labour Mayor of London.
"Jeremy Corbyn accused of failing to 'call out' Labour antisemitism by Sadiq Khan

He added: "If somebody is saying views that are appalling, disgusting and clearly anti-Semitic, I've got to call it out. The fact that that person happens to be from my party, the fact that the leader of my party is failing to call it out, that's irrelevant. I have to call it out."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyn-failing-to-call-out-antisemitism-in-labour-sadiq-khan-a7025696.html

Former leader of Scottish Labour Party.

Former Scottish Labour leader Jim Murphy accuses Momentum of having, "a problem with antisemitism ."


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/only-jewish-candidate-for-labours-ruling-nec-blocked-after-intervention-by-jim-mur
http://labourlist.org/2016/06/momentum-candidate-set-to-pursue-second-nomination-for-nec-after-local-setback/

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 12:00 PM

Keith - you know we know what you're up to...


.. y'know..... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 11:37 AM

Where are any of them suggesting that there is a serious problem and, if there is, what is it - how is it manifesting itself?
Sorry Keith - no cigar
That's two threads on which you are making unstanitiated claims which you refuse to qualify - why not open another one and we'll see if we can't get you into the Guinness Book of Records?
Who says there is a serious problem apart from the Pro-Israeli suckholes - what form does that problem take - why has it happened - if an inquiry indicates guilt in advance, doesn't that make Cameron's clowns guilty of Islamophobia.
You have refused to respond to any of these and will continue to do so 'cause that's what you're like.
Lord Levy, labour member of the house of Lords says there's a serious problem.
He was a founding member of the Jewish Leadership Council, the leadership of UK Jewish community. Levy has close ties with Israeli political leaders. His son, Daniel Levy, was active in Israeli political life, and has served as an assistant to the former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak and to Knesset member Yossi Beilin. Daniel is now based in the UK and is head of the Middle East Department of the European Council of Foreign Relations. Levy has praised Blair for his "solid and committed support of the State of Israel"[6] and "his commitment to the peace process".
Worth reading this - but you won't, or if you do, you won't answer any of the points it makes.
Doesn't matter - it's not for your benefit
Does Labour have a Problem?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 10:17 AM

Jim,
Where is your evidence that there is a serious problem in the Labout party

Among those I have quoted saying that there is are the newly elected Labour Mayor of London, the former leader of the Scottish Labour Party, and the whole of the Labour Party National Executive Committee.

and where has any prominent Labour leader or body claimed that Anti-Semitism exists in the Party

See above!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 10:10 AM

"Blatant, disgusting lie."
You really don't want me to dig up....... nah - couldn't possibly.

You can not, because it is a blatant and disgusting lie.
I have never even mildly criticised any faith.
You have once again resorted to lying personal attack instead of discussing the issue.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 09:53 AM

The Inequality Report
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 09:25 AM

Here's a great alternative to the truth propagated by bobad the forum cheat and his pathetic ally. Try suggesting that the hundreds of Gaza children who were killed by deliberately-targeted IDF shelling of schools and homes were killed by Israeli aggression. They'll tell you you're lying, that the children were murdered by Hamas. That's the kind of people who think they have the monopoly of opinion on the definition of antisemitism. I must say, bobad, considering how you cheated this forum for so long with your secret multiple identities, you would appear to be the last person here to be lecturing anyone else about "truth."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 09:12 AM

"Israel is a great place to live for Jews and non Jews alike - attested to by the fact that the vast majority of non Jews say that they would rather live in Israel than any other state in the world."

Please provide the date of the referendum, details of the question asked, the turnout percentage and the results statistics. When you've provided the figures for us, we can mull over the fact that most people who are asked whether they'd like to live in the country they were born in, in which they went to school and go to work and in which they have made their homes, and in which their families live, rather than somewhere else...oh, never mind. You wouldn't get it anyway.

Bloody buffoon.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 09:11 AM

And you - go read your own posts
You produced for enormous pages of cut- 'n-pastes on supposed Muslim Crimes, dating back to early Christianity - biggest posing I've ever seen on this forum.
And stop accusing critics of Israel of being Antisemitic - it's Antisemitic.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 08:45 AM

You and your friend have always targeted people Bobad, from claiming them to be potential sexual perverts by way of their religion, through, suggesting that they have no right to their traditional homeland to branding them all as suspect terrorists.

You must dwell in an alternate reality - alternate to the truth - one that you so much want to believe. Best of luck to you.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 08:35 AM

""Attacking" a collection of ideas is not attacking those who believe in them"
You and your friend have always targeted people Bobad, from claiming them to be potential sexual perverts by way of their religion, through, suggesting that they have no right to their traditional homeland to branding them all as suspect terrorists.
Happy to join you in a discussion on religion - it seems we might agree on something at last, but please don't try to dodge responsibility for your constant attempts to smear adherents to a selected religion.
It really doesn't hold water with your track records.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 08:00 AM

because it is an evil practice to attack a million British citizens

"Attacking" a collection of ideas is not attacking those who believe in them. When you "attack" Catholicism are you "attacking" millions of Catholics?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 07:22 AM

"And so what even if he had?"
because it is an evil practice to attack a million British citizens - every bit as evil as Asnt--Semitsim, and at the present time a damned sight more dangerous t the British people as a whole - it radiaclises young people to islamism. that's what
"Religions are nothing but a collection of ideas "
And freedom of religion a basic tenet of Western society.
"some devout Muslims believe you should be killed for criticizing it."
The history of all religions is one of violence and persecution - especially in Israel, where they are setting up an Apartheid state based on the prevailing religion there.
You talk about "some Muslims - then go and count the dead victims of Israeli terrorism carried out in the name of Judaism - no contest.
It is now becoming obvious that you have no interest in the welfare of the Jewish People, being as dismissive as you are of their and all religions.
Personally, I couldn't give a toss abot any religion - just the people who are damaged by it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 06:44 AM

You have led campaigns against the Islam religion on this forum

And so what even if he had? You and others, including your fellow traveler Shaw, have not been reticent in condemning other religions. Religions are nothing but a collection of ideas and as such are open to criticism. What's so special about Islam other than some devout Muslims believe you should be killed for criticizing it.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 06:27 AM

"Blatant, disgusting lie."
You really don't want me to dig up....... nah - couldn't possibly.
Stop dodging the question
Where is your evidence that there is a serious problem in the Labout party (apart from right-wingers) and where is your outrage in the inherent and admitted racism in Britain and where has any prominent Labour leader or body claimed that Anti-Semitism exists in the Party .... and all the other facts you have been presented with?
Where is your actual evidence that it is anything other the part of the Israeli billion-dollar propaganda campaign?
Stop diverting us from the main point with protestations of something you are noted for.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 05:16 AM

You have led campaigns against the Islam religion on this forum

Blatant, disgusting lie.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 04:50 AM

Answer the points I have just made Keith - random cut-'n-pastes prove sfa.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 04:43 AM

the quotes you have given come from right wing Labour party people

Bollocks!
They are mainstream, lifelong, dedicated Labour members.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 02:21 AM

"I have mostly used BBC, The Independent and Guardian"
The BBC had admitted that it is heavily biased towards pro-Israeli police - the quotes you have given come from right wing Labour party people who have links to pro Israeli organisations, such as Jim Murphy.
The same goes for the rest of the press.
There is a battle going on at present over control of the Labour Party and Anti-Semitism is as good a stick to use in that battle as any.
There is a billion dollar campaign going on at present to make all critics of Israel Anti-Semites - One Israeli minister has openly made this accusation.
"Shami Chakrabarti,"
Who says Shami Chakrabarti, is "worried?
The Labour Party has been accused of Anti-Semitism - it is only right that this accusation should be investigated and one of the first things to be examined is whether these accusations have any grounding in fact.
So far, two examinations, including the Oxford one, have found Labour not guilty, future enquiries may find the same.
You already have the accused out of his cell and the rope over the branch ready for the lynching - hopefully people like you will not be let a million miles within any fair-minded enquiry.
The Conservative Party is holding an enquiry into possible Islamophobia within its ranks (not before time) - should we all get out our ropes now or should we wait for the verdict.
The Tory party is not only infested with Islamophobia, but much of its policies are based on accusing the Muslim communities of being infiltrated by terrorists – you have made such accusations yourself, without evidence.
You have led campaigns against the Islam religion on this forum – Bobad is now making postings attacking Muslim countries on this thread, as he has regularly in the past
Where is your concerns for the million law-abiding citizens of Britain (rhetorical question – I know exactly where it is?)
Anti-immigration, and anti-refugeeism is rife in Britain and has created a new political party in Britain, started by a beer-swilling Donald Trump sound-alike.
I once claimed that, based on my experience of living in three major cities, I believe Britain to be a deeply racist country – you leapt on your chair and accused me of being a racist for doing so.
It transpires that a survey suggests that one in three of the British population admit to being racist - beats the tiny number of Labourites who have chosen their words badly and might – just might - hold Anti-Semitic views into a cocked hat.

CONFESSED RACISM IN BRITAIN

The Israeli shit-machine spends billions claiming that all criticism of Israeli policy is Anti-Semitic – you are first in the field with your banner flying to support them.
Where is your outrage for the millions of who suffer Anti-Muslim abuse daily?
Where is your outrage for the many millions on non-indigenous citizens of Britain who experience prejudice on a daily basis, both from the ordinary people of Britain and from its institutions?
Where was your thread when Britain's police force declared itself institutionally racist?
Do you personally have any evidence of Anti Semitism or are you happy to take the word of Pro-Israeli organisations and extreme right-wingers trying to oust the present Labour Leadership (what a stupid question Jim, go into the dunce's corner!!)
Your 'concern' over Anti Semitism isn't based on an interest in humanity, in the welfare of The Jewish people as a whole – your concern is based entirely on your ongoing support of Israeli right-wing terrorism which you claim doesn't exist because politicians don't say it does – not even because they actually speak ot in defence of Israel – the vast majority of them noticeably don't – you bizarrely interpret silence as support.
Do you actually have any evidence that Anti-Semitism is any more a problem in the Labour Party than it is in any other political group or in British society in general – of course you don't, because no such evidence exists.
Do you have any explanation as to why a political party historically dedicated to fighting all forms of racism, particularly Anti Semitism, should overnight do a flip and become Anti Semitic?
You have opened this thread because you have chosen to make yourself part of the current campaign by Israel to absolve itself from crimes against humanity by making such claims "Anti-Semitic.
"Comparing Israel to Nazis is anti-Semitic"
"Accusing the Jewish people as a whole of Israel's crimes against humanity is Anti-Semitic by definition.
You have done so on a regular basis - nobody else here has ever suggested that "The Jews did it", other than you 11.
Leading members of the Israeli establishment are now comparing the actions of the extremist establishment to Pre War Germany - are they "Anti-Semites?
You people have torn up the definition book and accused us of Anti-Semitism - there are no longer any rules as far as I am concerned.
Anybody who accuses the Jewish people of the crimes committed by the right-wing government in Israel is, in my (and the rule book) an Anti-Semite - if you accuse us critics of Israel of being Anti-Semitic, that makes you, by definition, a Jew Hater.
Don't do it again, I really am not happy in the presence of such people - I was alive when Jew haters filled extermination ovens.
Jim Carroll.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 08:36 PM

Bobad - ..but there are wealthy 'fortress communities' popping up all over the place where the inhabitants would say something similar...

Even in my provincial west country town property developers bought a large area of land in the best location,
and built an exclusive gated community for affluent newcomers...

Of course they probably don't give a shit about the rest of us outside their walls...??? 🙄



[mudcat problems effing up posts again - I thought this one got through ok 10 mins ago..??]

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 08:32 PM

Hmm......now after seeing this I'm not so sure, maybe Gaza is the great place to live: Hundreds of Heterosexuals Executed During Tel Aviv's Gay Pride Week

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 08:14 PM

Israel should have been a great place to live

Israel is a great place to live for Jews and non Jews alike - attested to by the fact that the vast majority of non Jews say that they would rather live in Israel than any other state in the world.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 08:07 PM

bobad - Because I'm a covert musl;m terr@rist pretending to be an English humanist who is 1/4 Polish Jew by blood...

...there you go.. that's the answer you want.. have that one free on me,
it is the weekend after all, and a very sunny one at that....

Now back to reality...

Israel should have been a great place to live,
brutal murderous mad arseholes on both sides are ensuring it is not..

Wicked blood for blood, eye for an eye, tit for tat, revenge war of attrition is exactly what the sociopath warmongers on both sides thrive on..

But it is a completely shit lifestyle for civilian populations...

Bob 'n' keith, you both strike me as personality types that could never be satisfied by peaceful solutions...????? 😣

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 07:35 PM

ultra right wing terror

Well there you go. The only "ultra right wing terror" most Jews in Israel see is that of Arab fanatics trying to murder them by stabbing, shooting and running them down with vehicles or launching rockets at civilians and building tunnels with which to infiltrate the country and murder them. But this doesn't seem to be of concern to you......I wonder why........hmmm.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 06:42 PM

... unless one was a sane moderate tolerant Israeli Jew sick of the climate of ultra right wing terror gripping my nation's government......????

..that one sound about right to me...


btw.. had to look up "calumny".. don't see that one every day this century... 🙄

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 06:28 PM

Why would any nation feel it would need to try to ban the rest of the world from ever comparing it to n@zi Germany...???

...unless.....??????

Why would anyone ever want to propagate such a hurtful calumny on a nation being fully aware of it's history.........unless..........??????

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 11:47 AM

.. and another morsel of sunny weekend fast food for thought...

At this point in the 21st Century, are ultra right wing Jews and ultra right wing Christians..

'innately' antagonistic sparring partners ?

'uneasy' expedient allies ?

'happily married' bedfellows ?



... what with all that "the enemy of my enemy is my best mate" international political chicanery.....????? 😕

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 11:17 AM

Why would any nation feel it would need to try to ban the rest of the world from ever comparing it to n@zi Germany...???

...unless.....?????? 🤔



funny old world.. innit....

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 11:05 AM

Comparing Israel to Nazis is anti-Semitic, 31 Western states declare

An intergovernmental body devoted to commemorating the Holocaust adopted a definition of anti-Semitism that includes some hate speech against Israel.

The International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance, or IHRA, adopted the definition on May 26, according to a statement posted earlier this week on its website. The organization was launched in 1998 and has 31 member states, all of them Western nations, and 11 observer countries.

The text closely resembles a document that had served as the European Union's working definition of anti-Semitism before Brussels distanced itself from the definition following lobbying and criticism by pro-Palestinian activists.

Adopted in 2005 by the European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia – a body set up by the European Union to combat racism – it was removed in 2013 from the website of the Fundamental Rights Agency, the body that replaced the centre. A spokesperson for the agency told JTA the EU neither needed nor had a real definition for the phenomenon. She said the document had been pulled as part of maintenance work on the website.


Of IHRA's 31 members, which include the United States and Canada, 24 are EU member states. Another two EU states are observers.


JTA

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 10:52 AM

What antisemitic abuse, Keith?

I do not know Steve.
It was the NEC who said they were appalled by recent examples of it, and that it was "a serious issue."
Perhaps it is you who are unable to recognise it.

Do you actually know what antisemitism is, or do you just rely on your disreputable and dishonest ally on this forum for moral support for your untenable position?

I have relied on Labour politicians and members who have attacked antisemitism within Labour.

You are just shooting at the messenger.

Do you actually know what antisemitism is, because your party has a very different view of it than you do.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Allan Conn
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 09:52 AM

You know I am not going to read this entire thread so apologise if it has already been said, and I don't know what other comments she's had in her life and what the context was, however the original Facebook post that caused all this was a storm in a teacup. Many claim that the Labour politician seriously suggested all Jews should be relocated to the US - but she didn't. She shared a FB post (who's author is himself Jewish) that was supposed to be satirical and tongue in cheek. I remember seeing the post myself and not thinking it funney enough to share. I suppose the main point being that through the years the Israeli state could often expect support from the US to the extent that it may as well be another US state. Whatever one thinks there is a massive difference between sharing a humourous post (be it bad taste or not) and seriously suggesting people should be relocated.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 09:01 AM

What antisemitic abuse, Keith? Remarks about Israel (not about Jews) by Naz Shah? Remarks about Zionists and Hitler which were historically correct, commenting on the politics, not the innate nature of Jews? Remarks about the slave trade which were also historically correct, not exclusively about Jews in any case, made by a woman who is a descendant of Jews, along with her partner? Do you actually know what antisemitism is, or do you just rely on your disreputable and dishonest ally on this forum for moral support for your untenable position?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 08:52 AM

This is the tool racists use to identify, mark out and discredit Jewish public figures and writers.

Coincidence Detector

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 06:12 AM

From the same piece in Labour List.

"Shami Chakrabarti, who will be chairing a wider ranging inquiry looking at anti-Semitism within the Labour Party. The entire NEC recognises the seriousness of this issue and is committed to addressing all the issues raised by these inquiries. "
http://labourlist.org/2016/05/alice-perrys-nec-report-corbyn-fighting-prejudice-and-listening-to-voters-online/

So all you people who claim that antisemitism within Labour is not a serious issue are directly contradicted by the Labour Party National Executive committee who say it is, and they are appalled by recent antisemitic abuse.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 05:21 AM

Jim,
You haven't linked us to "all our media" - just the ones who make your case and all directly traceable back to one form of pro-Israeli organisation or other.

I have mostly used BBC, The Independent and Guardian, and not their opinions but direct quotes of Labour politicians.
Had they been misquoted I am sure they would have found a way expose the lies.

You have yet to tell us who exatly are these "lots of people"

I have quoted lots of Labour politicians.

You've already been caught out telling porkies about the NEC

All I have put up about the NEC is a direct quote from "Labour List."
Is that under Zionist control?

Here is what I posted.

"Alice Perry's NEC report: Corbyn, fighting prejudice and listening to voters online
23RD MAY, 2016 3:22 PM"

"The NEC are appalled by recent cases of anti-Semitic abuse. Anti-Semitism has no place in the Labour Party and is contrary to everything we stand for."
http://labourlist.org/2016/05/alice-perrys-nec-report-corbyn-fighting-prejudice-and-listening-to-voters-online/

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 04:55 AM

"To anti-semites anything positive about Israel is automatically propaganda"
And to Israel - any criticism of their extremist right-wing policy is Antisemitism - their minister said so.
That is, by definition, is nationalist extremism of the type that fed the Nazi gas chambers - Deutschland Uber Alles - remember?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 06:01 PM

Yeah - anti-semites are complete arseholes... it's their loss if they can not delight in all the great things about Israeli landscape, arts and culture...

Pity the poor ignorant bastards...


Glad to say I don't actually know any..... 😎

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 04:56 PM

So all our media is now in Zionist hands and nothing can be believed.
You are right Jim.
That does invalidate everything I have said here.

To anti-semites anything positive about Israel is automatically propaganda of the all powerful Jew controlled media. This is how they justify their claim of not being anti-semites.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 03:33 PM

"Actually, the wife wishes......"
You too - must have a pint sometime and discuss tactics
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 03:10 PM

Keth - I'm outraged that you think I'm outraged.... 🙄


I don't do energy wasting stressy emotions.....


Actually, the wife wishes I was less self restrained and more excitable and over emotive like the Americans on the daytime telly...

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 02:53 PM

"So all our media is now in Zionist hands and nothing can be believed."
You've seen the BBC statement Keith - yet refuse to even commencement on it.
One thingls for certain; Israel would not be spending the billions it is on propaganda if it wasn't giving them a return.
You haven't linked us to "all our media" - just the ones who make your case and all directly traceable back to one form of pro-Israeli organisation or other.
You always do this - come in with a set agenda then scrabble around for cut-'n-pastes to back it up.
I've given you examples of some of your 'evidence's' links to Israel - no comment.
I've given you direct links to Israel's now out-of-hand behaviour - no comment.
I've shown you how much is being spent on propaganda - no comment.
I've given you the Labour Party's historical position on Antisemitism - no comment.
You started his thread as if you were actually interested in the situation - you aren't - you never have been, not in the case against Israel, not in The Jewish People, certainly not in the truth of the matter.
If there is a major problem in the labour party - what exactly is it - not what 'the friends of Israel' think - what do you think and more to the point, what do you actually know?
You've already been caught out telling porkies about the NEC
You have yet to tell us who exatly are these "lots of people"
You find the truth by using your own common sense on the facts we can rely on.
Logic tells me that, as there is a long running battle going on between Left and Right in the Labour Party, while, at the same time, Israel is desperately trying to dig itself out of the massive hole it is digging for itself in the Middle East and as Israel is in the hands of a ruthlessly inhuman regime who are behaving like crooked despots, what with him cooking the books and his wife drinking herself into oblivion and treating the hired help as personal slaves, then perhaps we can't believe everything claimed by a press that is pretty much going along with this nasty little bunch of very dangerous despots.
You want to convince us of your arguments then put some up that don't leak like a Liverpool supporter who had just downed twenty pints.
Where is your evidence and where is your common sense?
Why should a political party who, for all its flaws, has sttod up for The Jewish and the Islamic and the blacks and the poor.... and all the people your lot has traditionally stamped on.... why should they, overnight have turned into a bunch of Antisemites?
I could easily have believed it of your party - that has been their raison detre throughout their history.
God knows, I'm no 'New Labour' supporter, but I can recogognise a fit-up when I see one - your role as a serial Israeli atrocity denier only confirms my suspicions.
Your turn now - call me a liar, you usually do.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 02:05 PM

but the B.B.. has admitted being in Israel's pocket.
All the Lebour links, (and the rest) you have provided are traceable back to the Israeli propaganda collosus.

So all our media is now in Zionist hands and nothing can be believed.
You are right Jim.
That does invalidate everything I have said here.

Is there anywhere that I can go to find the truth?
Electronic Intifada?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 01:53 PM

"Lots of Labour members and its NEC say there is a problem,"
Who and on what basis - you seem to have in in on how"lots people and the N.E.C. is thinking" or is that just what, you from your political stance, would have us believe.
How do youknow what "lots of people" are thinking - the N.EC.C. appears to have exonerated the Party of having an Antisemitism problem.
The BBC has said there's a problem - but the B.B.. has admitted being in Israel's pocket.
All the Lebour links, (and the rest) you have provided are traceable back to the Israeli propaganda collosus.
Where is your eveidense for any of this nonsense?
Once again, you refuse even to acknowledge the terrifying direction Israel is now taking, its betrayal of the Jewish People, its War criminality, the fact that an extremist right-wing Middle Easter country with nuclear capability is disparaging Jewish critics, destabalising the Middle East and threatening the lives and well-being of yours, mine and the rest of humanities well-being.
You are not the slightest bit interested in Antisemitism or the Jewish Peole, you vote has always gone to teh extremist Israeli candidate and your dishonesty in doing so has been the main feature of your support for that regime.
Where's your evidence that there is a problem withi the Labour party apart from your Israeli propaganda

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 01:28 PM

Jim,
I don't believe for one minute that The Labour Party is full of Anti-semites - that is a myth generated by the propaganda machine which has been set up to defend the Israeli ultra-right policies -

Lots of Labour members and its NEC say there is a problem, at least with Momentum and the Left if not mainstream Labour.

Jim Murphy is a right winger who was cited in parliament for his heavy-handed right-wing tactics.

He has been part of the Labour Party his whole adult life, been a long standing Labour MP and the leader of Scottish Labour.

Steve,
lying about non-existent EU guidelines

Do you mean the working definitions of antisemitism that are still published by the European Parliament Working Group On Antisemitism, an EU body?

and by refusing to address questions put to you.

Not refused, I must have missed them.
Sorry.
Please repost them.

Pfr,
I just put this up as an issue, which Labour itself clearly thinks itis.
It is yours and Steve's outrage and denials that have kept this thread going all these weeks.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 08:20 AM

"It is yours and Steve's outrage and denials that have kept this thread going all these weeks.

Keith - at risk of being lured into your playground tactics of "Please teacher, they started it..."

It's your thread, you started it, I respond to your daily thread perpetuating attacks upon the Labour Party..

.. and as before I sincerely thank you for this opportunity to learn from Jim and Steve's, and other occasional poster's, superior knowledge and experience,
and their ability to articulate my line of ideas much better than I am able...

This thread is very good refresher education - You're doing me a big favour Keith.....

cheers mates... 😎

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 08:13 AM

Excellent posts from both Jim and pfr above - cheers, lads. Let's keep the little island of sanity in this thread. Keith, you are entitled to ask me questions when you answer questions yourself. You've made a complete fool of yourself in this thread both by lying about non-existent EU guidelines and by refusing to address questions put to you. I have better things to spend my time on.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 07:59 AM

"Former Scottish Labour leader Jim Murphy accuses Momentum of having, "a problem with antisemitism "
Jim Murphy is a right winger who was cited in parliament for his heavy-handed right-wing tactics.
He was chairman of the Pro-Israeli 'Labour Friends of Israel' and is a member of the Henry Jackson Society's Political Council
Henry Jackson Soc.
It suits him to denigrate the progressive side of Lablour - what else if he going to say?
See what I mean - wheels within wheels in all these attacks
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 07:45 AM

"Jim, I substantiated that stuff with quotes."
Sure you did Keith - don't you always select the best on offer?
Once more you hide behind the result of your internet trawls and refuse to respond to the implications of where they came from and why they are there in the first place.
Something else you will ignore
Traditionally the left parties and activists have championed the rights of other races, have been on the forefront of the fight agaists racism and Antisemitism... and most other progressive movements.
It is you extremists who have traditionally taken the other side - racism, Antisemitism, cultural hatred - all the domain of the right - it was the right who drove six million Jews into the gas chambers.
If the Labour party have no become Antisemitic in their outlook, it is because they have embraced Tory values - SFA to do with the ideals of Labour.
This is a double whammy for people like you - you get to defend your favourite terrorist state while at the same tim, get a chance to smear the only hope Britain has of having a half decent and humane political party'
Feel free to ignore this - it really wasn't for your benefit.

Tried to post this response to Steve earlier, but apparently Max is still having his problems, Gawd bless 'im.

I think it's a bit irrelevant to plouter around whether it was Jews, Gentiles, Muslims or whoever who were involved in Slavery or helped Hitler's rise to power - not necessarily or wholly inaccurate, but, given the present circumstances, somewhat inflammatory - one of Livingstone's boo-boos, but understandable given that Israel is forefront in blaming the Jewish people for the human rights abuses and war crimes it has committed and continues to commit.
There were Jews who opposed slavery, who fought for freedom for all; in my father's time and in mine, the British and American left was made up of large sections of Jews - revolutionaries, liberals, 'do-gooders' people who wanted to make the world a better place to live in - try the early novels of Howard Fast or the plays of Arthur Miller some time, still inspirational enough to be life-changing (and certainly not to people like Keith's taste).
We far-too-often equate all groups and communities with those who have made it to the top of the greasy pole, while forgetting that all communities have their dedicated heroes and fighters for human rights.
My dad once said that, if it wasn't for lapsed Catholics and Jews we wouldn't have a left movement in Britain and it would be a far lousier world without them - many of his mate who fought with him in Spain were refugees from Fascist Germany.
I don't believe for one minute that The Labour Party is full of Anti-semites - that is a myth generated by the propaganda machine which has been set up to defend the Israeli ultra-right policies - doesn't the claim that "all criticism of Israeli policy is Antisemitic" have chilling echoes of the thirties' "Jewish world plot"?
All Keith's and Bobad's claims are traceable back to Israel's fact-manufacturing factory - it really was money well-spent on this pair
STUDENTS
AMERICA
BBC
Jim Carroll

P.S
It will be interesting if these fall under the new restrictions of the new definition of "Antisemitism
Mrs N's Irvana Trump like shennanigans

Mr N's hand in the till

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 07:44 AM

you surly have a vested interest in blowing this alleged anti semitism up out of all proportions.

I have not done that.
I just put it up as an issue, which it clearly is.
It is yours and Steve's outrage and denials that have kept this thread going all these weeks.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 07:41 AM

Keith - I accuse you of needing the 'problem' to be far more that it actually is...

For whatever vindictive reason you surly have a vested interest in blowing this alleged anti semitism up out of all proportions.

If you yourself are not jewish, then you have a peculiarly morbid fascination with the issue,
that doesn't strike me as based in any genuine empathy or altruism....???? 😣

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 07:41 AM

Former Scottish Labour leader Jim Murphy accuses Momentum of having, "a problem with antisemitism ."


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/only-jewish-candidate-for-labours-ruling-nec-blocked-after-intervention-by-jim-mur
http://labourlist.org/2016/06/momentum-candidate-set-to-pursue-second-nomination-for-nec-after-local-setback/

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 07:02 AM

Steve, which board members do you consider "ardently pro- Israel" to the extent that their views on anti-semitism are not relevant and why.

Who are "enemies of Labour within Labour?"

Pfr, you have denied that the problem is significant.
Mountains and molehills.

Jim, I substantiated that stuff with quotes.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Jun 16 - 06:16 PM

This whole thing is so bloody ridiculous, Jim. Naz Shah is "antisemitic" even though she never used the word "Jews." Ken Livingstone is "antisemitic" because he truthfully mentioned the liaison between Hitler and senior Zionists. Jackie Walker is "antisemitic" because she dared to mention, honestly, the role of Jews in the sugar and slave trade. She's "antisemitic" even though both she and her partner are of Jewish descent. A couple of years ago I spent a few days in Liverpool, which was at the heart of the slave trade. Liverpool acknowledges its role and is man enough to take the flak. But mention that Jews were involved, which they were, big time, and you're shot down. Not all Jews. Not only Jews. But you are not allowed to mention it. The wider definition of antisemitism, the one that proscribes any criticism of Israel, trumps fair, honest and open debate every time.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 16 - 03:03 PM

"The NEC and much of the membership disagree with you."
The NEC has reported no institutional racism within the Labour
Party and th Oxford enquiry came out with a verdict of not guilty.
As the official inquiry isn't due out yet.
Do you know something none of the rest of us do about a "much of the membership" or are you just making that up? (rhetorical question)

"You deny there is a problem."
Yes, undoubtedly - the whole situation has been blown up and paid for
by the Israli propaganda machine which is spending millions to discredit critics
Witch Hunt

Of course there are Antisemites within the Labour Party as there are in every party
of course it depends how you define the term

What it amounts to is that a tiny handful of people within the party have not chosen their words properly when criticising Israel
As Israel has now monopolised the term 'Antisemitism and has described Jewish critics as Self-loathing Jews the term has become meaningless anyway.
Even top-ranking and respected members of the Israeli establishement are Israel's behavior to that of Pre-War Germany

The Israeli Justice minister has gone so far as to say tht it is Antisemitic to EVER CRITICISE ISRAEL

******* ridiculous!!
The situation has intensified genuine Antisemitism in the world today and put the lives and well being of all Jews at risk
Israel is now an Antisemitic State in the very real sense.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Jun 16 - 01:32 PM

I didn't say pro-Israel, oh expert of the partial quote. I said ardently pro-Israel. Israel sycophants, blind to that state's transgressions. The only sense in which I am pro-Israel is that I want the people who live there, all of them, to have peace, security and prosperity, precisely the opposite of the direction in which their regime is taking them. The same as what I want for everyone else. Oh, and I oppose anyone who says they are going to wipe Israel from the map or who targets Jews because they are Jews. And that includes Labour politicians. Oddly, I have seen hardly any who actually do that. Well, none so far that I'm convinced of.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Jun 16 - 01:01 PM

"You deny there is a problem."

Oh no I don't.... oops... not panto season yet is it...???

Never have, as well you know if you actually read what I write.

If there is a problem of anti semitism in the Labour Party
I firmly conclude, that it is of nowhere near the magnitude and importance
Labour's enemies outside and within the party are so desperately attempting to fabricate...!!!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jun 16 - 12:45 PM

You deny there is a problem.
The NEC and much of the membership disagree with you.
I thought it would make an interesting discussion given that there are several of the Labour hard left here.

I thought it might last a few days, but not weeks.
It has not been driven by me.
Bobad and I have mostly just responded to what has been said by you, Steve and Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Jun 16 - 11:55 AM

"It is about the current problems of Labour."

Keith - After all this long thread, the only sensible conclusion I can objectively arrive at
is that Labour is rife with antisemitic extremists and not fit for Government ever again,
especially with Corbyn as leader...

no.. seriously Keith...


.. oh alright.. in yer dreams Keith..... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jun 16 - 11:41 AM

You have defended all their atrocities, all their massacres, their policy of expansionism, their attempts to set up an Apartheid State, the slaughter of civilians and the bombing of hospitals and schools, chemical and anti-personnel wepons ...... every War crime and human human rights abuse that has ever been pointed out to you

No I have not.
I have put Israel's side of the story and pointed out that no liberal democracy accuses israel of atrocities or massacres or any of that shit, only the very unpleasant regimes that are enemies of Israel.

Now please desist in your obsessive compulsion to make this yet another thread about Israel!
This is not about Israel.
It is about the current problems of Labour.
Any views on that Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 16 - 11:33 AM

" you mean they want it to continue to exist, "
You have defended all their atrocities, all their massacres, their policy of expansionism, their attempts to set up an Apartheid State, the slaughter of civilians and the bombing of hospitals and schools, chemical and anti-personnel wepons ...... every War crime and human human rights abuse that has ever been pointed out to you
And now you are about to claim that none of this ever happened and it is all propaganda.
If that is what it takes to continue to exoist, then perhaps it has forfeited that right?
That is what Steve means
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jun 16 - 11:17 AM

Steve, if by "pro-Israel" you mean they want it to continue to exist, you have said that you do too.

Are you asserting that they are all too right wing to be on the board?
Which ones and why Steve?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Jun 16 - 10:12 AM

..[yeah I know... I didn't catch it in Preview - last time my eyes were tested and new lenses prescribed was 20 years ago... 🤓]

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Jun 16 - 09:54 AM

I'm waiting for a phone call from my mother's Dr and getting a bit bored...
so...


There are good and bad people

All people are good

All people are bad

There are good and bad Jews

All Jews are good

All Jews are bad

There are good people who happen to be Jews

There are bad people who happen to be Jews

There are good people because they are Jews

There are bad people because they are Jews

The only good people are Jews

The only bad people are Jews


Now I'm not exactly sure where I'm going with this flow...
anyone else want to join in and contribute....?????


Maybe a cut out and keep card learning discussion card game for kiddies or cultural political illiterates.....????? 🎓

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Jun 16 - 09:29 AM

What part of what she said was a "slur," Keith? Was she telling fibs? Did you look at the context (excuse me for being suspicious of you, but you've made the partial quote twice already). What was antisemitic? Did she say "all Jews?" Did she say "only Jews?" If she isn't allowed to say "Jews," what should she call them? Proto-Israelis?😂What do they call themselves? Are we allowed to say that Christians were involved in the slave trade? Frankly, you are crazy and mixed up. You want to jump on every remark made by anyone to the left of you (which is just about everyone), antennae a-twitching, looking for signs of cod-antisemitism. When you sat in your middle-class Christian pew last Sunday, did you not wonder how many of those devout chanters of prayers around you might have been harbouring just the teensiest hint of your brand of antisemitism?

And do you think you could answer (only if you want to, of course) by saying what you think instead of telling us what an assortment of other people think? That would make a nice change...

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Jun 16 - 09:14 AM

My point is bleeding obvious. Most of the "advisory board" are ardently pro-Israel and are hardly going to argue against your broadened definition of antisemitism (the one that tries to stem all criticism of Israel). In fact, I'd say they are more of a lobby grouping than an advisory board, so it's a good job those criteria are not official EU policy. Not exactly balanced, is it, Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 16 - 08:13 AM

"far-left "
Israel now has an extremist far-right policy - acknowledged by members of its own establishment
It was the far-right of Germany who herded six million Jews to their deaths - established fact.
We now seem to be getting down to the fact that it is not The Jewish People you are defending but the far-right policies of the Israeli Regime.
This is where this argument should have been in the first place.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Jun 16 - 08:01 AM

Keith - Btw.. if we showed you large high definition photos of mountains and molehills, could you easily identify which was which.....????? 😣

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 01 Jun 16 - 07:59 AM

As the political horseshoe theory attributed to Jean-Pierre Faye highlights, if we travel far-left enough, we find the very same sneering, nasty and reckless bully-boy tactics used by the far-right. The two extremes of the political spectrum end up meeting like a horseshoe, at the top, which to my mind symbolizes totalitarian control from above. In their quest for ideological purity, Stalin and Hitler had more in common than modern neo-Nazis and far-left agitators would care to admit.

Horseshoe Theory

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Jun 16 - 07:51 AM

Keith - if it's that important to you, take it up with your local Labour councillor, or MP if you're lucky enough to have one...


"So Labour Party Jews are not left wing enough to have their views considered!

.. no.. just the daft ones and the more bigoted Israeli regime supporters who put their narrow obsessions
before Labour's key principles, priorities, and party loyalty and unity.. 😠


Throughout the early 20th Century Jewish intellectual marxists were among the vanguard of the movement,
and deserve utmost recognition and respect..

Even more so those in pre war Germany, and central/eastern Europe.....

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jun 16 - 07:32 AM

Steve,
As an aside, just look at the "advisory bodies" of your quango.

Here is the Advisory Board.
What is your point?

ADVISORY BOARD
INTER-PARLIAMENTARY COALITION FOR COMBATING ANTISEMITISM        

EUROPEAN JEWISH CONGRESS

B'NAI BRITH INTERNATIONAL        

CEJI – A JEWISH CONTRIBUTION TO AN INCLUSIVE EUROPE

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jun 16 - 06:47 AM

So Labour Party Jews are not left wing enough to have their views considered!

How many Jews of any political persuaion can you find who do not regard the statements of Shah, Wright and others as offensively anti-semitic.

We do know that Sadiq Khan does.
We do know that Labour's NEC does.
We do know that the Jewish Labour Movement and Israel's Labour Party does.

I've already explained to you why it was no slur and not antisemitic.
!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 16 - 05:49 AM

"To the regressive left anyone who opposes radical Islamists is an Islamophobe"
As anybody who critiscises Israel is an Anti-Semite.
Don't throw stones if you live in a glass house.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 May 16 - 09:43 PM

... oh yeah.. btw.. earlier I watched a news interview with a former CIA agent, he acknowledged that one of their favoured dirty tactics
is to target people 'who's opinions are not agreeable' and find any pretext
to get them up in front of a judge and tied up in court proceedings...

That'll keep 'em wearily preoccupied and distracted from doing whatever it was the CIA found displeasing.... 🤔

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 May 16 - 08:58 PM

I trust Labour to implement an internal policy of encouraging members to be aware of any old fashioned trad white racists,
and any newcomer muslims intolerant to jews within the party.
Report them at branch level, so they can be dealt with appropriately.
While the party goes about the daily business of striving to protect and save our beleaguered nation from the tories...

All this shrill hyperbolic media hysteria indicates that this is not the real issue...

.. and bob 'n' keith.. you both know this to be true..


[unless you really are that disturbed and deluded... 😜 ]

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 May 16 - 08:45 PM

Yes, and that's only right, because antisemitism is after all the single key issue of greatest vital importance and priority,
determining why we all ever vote Labour...!!! ✔

Let the nation and it's poorest over exploited citizens rot, as long as we STAMP OUT anyone who doesn't feel agreeable to licking Israel's arse......

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 31 May 16 - 08:30 PM

Here`s a lob for you, have at 'er

Yet, there are some Labour leaders who see the problem, and want the party to take more drastic and immediate action (via BBC):

    Lord Levy told BBC Newsnight he believed anti-Semitism existed across the political divide, but it seemed "more prominent" within Labour.

    It follows the party's decision to suspend MP Naz Shah from the party over comments about Israel on social media, pending an investigation.

    […]

    Lord Levy, who was Tony Blair's envoy and chief fundraiser, told the BBC her comments displayed "ignorance", and he was left "scratching his head with despair as to how people like this can enter our parliament with such a lack of knowledge, discretion and sensitivity".

    His comments were echoed by cross-bench peer Baroness Neuberger, who claimed Labour's problem of anti-Semitism was "attached to Jeremy Corbyn becoming leader", and added that it was "an issue with the hard left".

    Labour has faced claims of growing anti-Semitism in its ranks. Earlier this year a Labour Luton councillor was suspended from the party after claiming Hitler was the "greatest man in history".

    […]

    Shadow education secretary Lucy Powell, Ed Miliband's former chief of staff, told BBC Radio 4's Today programme the party "had to do more" to tackle anti-Semitism and MP Lisa Nandy said it had to be more "pro-active".

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 May 16 - 08:12 PM

Really, I seem to recall that he referred to Muslims as brown people with unhygienic habits, etc. It's you giving yourself away by calling upon witnesses such as Daniel Pipes, who's clearly a lunatic of the first order. Do tell us: do you regard Muslims/Arabs as brown people with inconveniently unhygienic habits? Daniel does! 😂😂😂

Just don't think for one second that you can, just like Keith thinks he can, bring your illiberal, prejudiced and agenda-laden nonsense here and expect it to stay unchallenged. You've been called out big-time in the last couple of days for quoting people who couldn't argue their way out of a paper bag if put alongside genuine and fair-minded people who are actually acquainted with the facts. And, I must say, in a weird way I have to admire your utter shamelessness in putting yourself up as an unapologetic and sycophantic spokesman for Israel when you are are actually the most dishonest person who's still allowed to post on this forum. Jesus, if Bibi ever reads this I reckon he'd send you a dog turd in the post to shut you up. You're certainly a massive embarrassment to the nation you claim to support.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 May 16 - 08:10 PM

bobad - If I was obsessed with proving that dogs were dangerous and hated humans;
and persistently provided links to anti-dog articles that were all so obviously written by fanatical extremist cat lovers...

You might start thinking that I was not exactly objective, reliable, or sensible.... 🐶 🐱

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 31 May 16 - 07:06 PM

the arch-Islamophobe

To the regressive left anyone who opposes radical Islamists is an Islamophobe (whatever that is). You give yourself away. Tell me, are Jeremy's friends your friends too?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 31 May 16 - 06:42 PM

Ha, ha I'm loving it......Pavlov was right.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 May 16 - 05:25 PM

Ah yes, Daniel Pipes, the arch-Islamophobe whose zany notions alienate even his potential pro-Israel allies. The wiki article on him makes for an entertaining and highly amusing read. Keep 'em coming, bobad! Oh no, there goes my corset again. Is the corset shop still open? 😅😅😅

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 May 16 - 05:14 PM

As soon as I clicked on the link I got an ad trying to sell me an iPhone. There was no way of getting rid of it from the screen except by turning off the iPad. And that's the truth. Yiu know damn well I follow your links - it's so much fun telling you what a bunch of complete, brainless twats you call up in your defence. 😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 31 May 16 - 04:53 PM

DONT CLICK ON BOBAD'S LINK. It's full of malware.

No malware whatsoever - methinks Shaw is afraid is afraid of truth.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 31 May 16 - 04:49 PM

The Left. vs. Israel

Since the creation of Israel, Palestinians, Arabs, and Muslims have been the mainstay of anti-Zionism, with the Left, from the Soviet Union to professors of literature, their auxiliary. But this might be in process of change: as Muslims slowly, grudgingly, and unevenly come to accept the Jewish state as a reality, the Left is becoming increasingly vociferous and obsessive in its rejection of Israel.

Daniel Pipes: Middle East Forum

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 May 16 - 03:30 PM

If you haven't already done so, DONT CLICK ON BOBAD'S LINK. It's full of malware. The bloke who does that and who has operated secretly under two identities here has the bloody cheek to burble on about anyone else's "moral compass." Nice.

Suffice to say that Nick Cohen is yet another typical bobad ally. Barking mad, doesn't know left from right, hears about some "leftie" or other saying something disagreeable then tars anyone left of Attila The Hun with the same brush. Daft.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 31 May 16 - 03:12 PM

Labour, under Corbyn, has lost its moral compass

Corbyn worked as a presenter for Iranian state television. In other words, he was a willing propagandist of a regime that executes homosexuals, imprisons trade unionists and persecutes religious and ethnic minorities. This would have once disqualified him from membership of 'the Left'. Now he represents the 'moral' Left.

Corbyn makes excuses for the avowedly orthodox- conservative, privately kleptomaniac and demonstrably imperialist Putin regime Once support for Putin's combination of faith, fraud and force would have been anathema to the left. Now it is the 'moral' left.

Corbyn defends the most grotesque anti-Semites: fantasists, who believed Jews eat Christian children, and were the diabolical power behind 9/11, the slave trade and every other catastrophe   Once this attempt to destroy Labour's reputation for anti-fascism and anti-racism would have disqualified Corbyn from the left. Now eminent Oxbridge leftists hail such 'moral clarity' as the future of the left.

If it is, it is not a future any moral person should want any part of, however much money they earn.

Nick Cohen:The Spectator

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 May 16 - 01:12 PM

The Israeli Labor Party is not a left-wing party. It is a Zionist organisation that has been in bed with all manner of allies out of expedience, including Likud. It holds strongly to the notion of the Jewish state and is firmly in bed with the US, revelling in the massive military subsidy that the US provides. "Sister party" is pushing it. Its allies in the UK Labour Party are the Labour Friends Of Israel, not the worst of similar bunches but still a powerful pro-Israel lobby group. If you want the views of real leftie Jews, look elsewhere. The Jewish Labour Movement has the following stated aim:

"We view Zionism as the national liberation movement of the Jewish people. Its aim is to promote "a secure, progressive, just and successful State of Israel" and believe in a two state solution."

Well that isn't exactly my idea of a left-wing movement. Lefties are Internationalists. I see no mention of Israeli Arabs, or the Palestinians, in those aims, and the mention of the now-impossible two-state solution, thanks to land thefts and settlement building, is just a piece of cynical lip-service.

And I note that you continue to adhere to the dishonest partial quoting of what Jackie Walker said. I've already explained to you why it was no slur and not antisemitic.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 May 16 - 12:39 PM

Stephen Pollard is an exremist right wing politician who adopts an "Antisemites-under-the-bed'

Ok, so what do left wing Jews say?

"The Jewish Labour Movement (JLM), a formal affiliate, hit out after Jackie Walker was reinstated to the party after saying Jews were the "chief financiers of the slave trade".

The JLM told PoliticsHome: "Walker repeated an anti-Semitic slur. She showed no contrition.

Fresh Labour anti-Semitism row after leading activist re-instated to party
Labour warned anti-Semitism probe must not be 'whitewash'
"The outcome of this process shows, once again, that the political rhetoric of zero tolerance on anti-Semitism is not matched by action. This is why we are proposing changes to party rules."

The group is seeking to change Labour's rules to make it easier to expel and ban members for life if they are found guilty of anti-Semitism."
https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/news/75537/exclusive-jewish-labour-movement-hits-out-over

And the Israeli Labour Party,

"Jeremy Corbyn faced fresh criticism over his handling of antisemitism allegations after Labour's sister party in Israel said it had had no reply to a letter its leader sent to him a month ago expressing dismay and inviting him to Jerusalem to see the Yad Vashem Holocaust museum.

Labour MPs said they were shocked that no response had apparently been sent and added that it was further evidence of the party leadership's slow and inadequate response to the crisis."
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/28/jeremy-corbyn-failed-reply-israel-left-antisemitism-ken-livingstone

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 May 16 - 10:08 AM

He's barking. You can bet your life that anyone bobad invokes will be as mad as a box of frogs, like that military nutter mysogynist he dug up the other day. Put it down to the mark of desperation. The Telegraph was the mild bit! 😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 May 16 - 09:26 AM

.. and I've just googled the wiki for Pollard...

Oh dear.. on this superficial summary, he does sound a bit of a blatant hostile Labour Party hating right wing arsehole.... 😠

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 May 16 - 09:15 AM

... and it's The Telegraph... 🙄

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 May 16 - 09:15 AM

Once and for all, Keith, the criteria are NOT official EU policy. The working group is a sort of EU quango and does not formulate EU official policy. That's their website, not the "EU website," which, oddly (or not), you have so far failed to invoke. The amusing thing is that you know all this and are carrying it on just to save your face. As an aside, just look at the "advisory bodies" of your quango. 😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 16 - 09:13 AM

Stephen Pollard is an exremist right wing politician who adopts an "Antisemites-under-the-bed' approach to Israel, including attacks on the press who, he claims 'does not defend Israel enough.
He is the editor of The Jewish Chronicle which is " "a firm and influential champion of Zionism"
When the paper recieved compaints about it carrying an advert for Gaza Relief Aid, it stated that it was a staunch supporter of Operation Protective Edge
"Pollard proceeds to accuse 'many liberals and others on the European left' of 'making common cause with radical Islam and then brazenly and bizarrely denying both the existence of that alliance and in fact the existence of any Islamist threat whatever'.[8] He acknowledges that he finds "Surrender" 'at times, hard going', but this is only in part 'because of the level of detail Bawer offers in support of his argument' and because 'Bawer is unquestionably correct, and that fact is quite simply ­terrifying'.[9]"
On his blog, Pollard disparages both the NHS[10] and the Royal Mail[11], and speaks approvingly of private alternatives. After accusing the Guardian and other British critics of ignorance about the US healthcare system, Pollard writes:
The plain fact is that if you have a serious disease or need long term care, if you have the right coverage you are so much better off being treated in the US that the NHS is not even comparable.
Stephen Pollard
Once again, the opinions of an extreme right-wing, pro Israeli activist is being used to show that the Labour Party is riddled with Anti-Semites.
No wonder this pair want to make Israel a no-go area in this discussion
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 May 16 - 09:06 AM

Yes, bobad, you "forgot" to mention that Pollard is the editor of the Jewish Chronicle. And a madman to boot. I should think that even Keith would struggle to take him on board. You're pretty desperate, aren't you? 😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 31 May 16 - 08:34 AM

For months now, week by week, examples have been emerging of cut and dried anti-Semitism – most dressed up, oh so cleverly, as anti-Zionism, but much not even bothering to hide it. And the Labour leader's response to the criticism that he is soft on anti-Semitism and that it's his political mindset that has fuelled its rise is not to get hard on anti-Semitism. It's to get irritated.

This is not some academic exercise or interesting political theory. This is reality – the reality that the Labour Party is now run by a cadre for whom anti-Semitism really is ok, so long as it is dressed up as anti-Zionism. Because Zionism is the enemy of all good people.

Stephen Pollard: The Left's hatred of Jews chills me to the bone

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 May 16 - 06:24 AM

and you're obsessed with bringing them back from the dead

Not dead Steve.
Still there.
Still current and adopted even beyond the EU.
Some individuals may have rejected them for their own reasons and agendas, but here they are upheld by the European Parliament Working Group On Anti-Semitism .
http://www.antisem.eu/projects/eumc-working-definition-of-antisemitism/

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 May 16 - 05:38 AM

Well those unratified criteria are full of references to Israel, and you're obsessed with bringing them back from the dead (in order to save face, of course). As you've now mentioned them umpteen times yourself, mostly trying to tell us lies about them, I'd say that makes you a pot calling a kettle black when you accuse "us people" of being obsessed with Israel. Incidentally, as you want such a sweeping definition of antisemitism, you know, the one that attempts to prevent valid criticism of Israel, how can this possibly NOT be about Israel!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 May 16 - 04:37 AM

Steve,
You see, you and Keith just LOVE those rejected EUMC criteria,

You mean the ones that are still on the EU website after eleven years?
Obviously some people reject them, but there they still are.

And this really is not about Israel.
You people are obsessed.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 May 16 - 07:30 PM

"I'd walk a million miles for one of your smiles..."

Asa Yoelson - a man with a very complex sense of cultural identity...

.. complicated unruly old world innit..not so easy to pin down with one dimensional authoritarian legalistic definitions..... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 May 16 - 07:09 PM

Galloway is not "my man" and never has been. Naz Shah did not mention Jews. She mentioned Israel, which is one quarter Arab and three-quarters Jewish. Her sentiment was that the state of Israel has been a confounded nuisance in the Middle East for decades, and she made a whimsical suggestion that it could be moved to its puppet, the USA. Whimsical means not serious, something that can't come about, pie in the sky. It was a bloody idiotic thing to say, a divisive remark made with no regard as to outcome. But it was not antisemitic because she referred to the state of Israel, not to Jews. I don't expect you and Keith to see the difference. You don't want there to be a difference, because you want a definition of antisemitism that is so broad that it disallows any criticism whatsoever of the state of Israel. Not once in any post of yours, either as bobad or as that dishonest, trolling, cowardly anonymous Guest, have you ever accepted the slightest criticism of Israeli actions. If I were to mention that an Israeli soldier shot dead a Palestinian child, you'd manage to turn it round and somehow blame Hamas.You'd tell us that Hamas murdered the child. That's what you told us told us when the IDF were shelling schools in Gaza. That's how rotten to the core you are, utterly twisted and bitter, and certainly no friend of the Israeli people, ironically (though, naturally, you don't see the irony). Most Israelis would hate to have people like you and Keith on their side. All you do is put them in harm's way.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 May 16 - 07:00 PM

Sorry, I'm only just waking up after sleeping off dinner..

..eh ? .. what.. a thousand mile walk..??
.. what.. from UK to Israel...???


...ermmmm.. our feet might get very wet as soon as we step off at Dover...????? 😕

But I guess that didn't bother old man Moses back in them distant make believe bible days...

Divine intervention.. and presumably very sturdy sandals...

Still not woken up properly... what was the point...?????????


[Btw.. on the subject of jews..
.. I unearthed a photo on the internet of the Jewish Grandfather I have never known..
approx in his 70s in the 1970s
I showed it to my mum, she was quite touched to see her real dad's face again all these years later...


I need a younger photo to tell how much I might look like him]

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 30 May 16 - 06:29 PM

suggested that Israel be relocated. She did not suggest that just Jews should be relocated.

Ah, ha, ha....what are you smoking? I'd like me some of that shit man!

Just like your man Galloway who declared Bradford an "Israel free zone". Like Israel could be geographically excised and moved to Bradford. You damn well know he meant Jew free zone just as Shah meant the same. Your feigned ignorance convinces no one but, just as there was for your fellow party member, there is a path out of ignorance for you too. A journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 May 16 - 05:56 PM

Both Haaretz and you are wrong (what's new?). Naz Shah, foolishly, suggested that Israel be relocated. She did not suggest that just Jews should be relocated. Now that WOULD have been antisemitic. But the unassailable fact that you and Haaretz are conveniently ignoring is that Israel is about one-quarter Arab. In effect, she was also suggesting that a couple of million Arabs also be relocated, as well as the Jewish contingent. So where does that leave us? Hmmm...

You see, you and Keith just LOVE those rejected EUMC criteria, because they allow you to call critics of Israel antisemitic. You dearly want Israel to be protected from any criticism. So we end up with a situation in which an admittedly rather foolish person making a remark that was about the state of Israel, no mention of Jews, can be called antisemitic. Well the rest of us will just continue to enjoy the pair of you making fools of yourselves in your ignorance and prejudice.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 30 May 16 - 05:32 PM

Another hater liberated from ignorance:

U.K. Labour MP Naz Shah: I Was Ignorant About Judaism

In first public appearance at Jewish venue since suspension from party over anti-Semitic remarks, Lawmaker visits Leeds synagogue, vows to talk to fellow Muslims about anti-Semitism.
Haaretz

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 May 16 - 02:56 PM

Lovely sunny bank holiday, and bob 'n' keith are on hilarious form...

Doubt if I'll find anything more amusing on TV.... 😄

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 16 - 02:52 PM

"At least some of us don't have friends in political parties rife with antisemites"
A least we aren't Antisemites who accuse the Jewish people of Israeli crimes.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 May 16 - 02:50 PM

Only antisemites now is it, bobad? Not Jew haters any more? Should we take that as progress? By the way, can you give me a list of Labour Party antisemites? As the party is "rife" with them, fifteen or twenty names will do for starters. As a member myself, I shall definitely take it up with them. And, like Andy Burnham, I would tear up my membership card if I find out that the party is riddled. Your information could be of value! 😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 30 May 16 - 02:41 PM

With friends like those...

At least some of us don't have friends in political parties rife with antisemites. 😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 16 - 02:19 PM

"It is about Labour's problem with anti-semitism."
If you and Bobad bring up pro-Israeli activists to back your case, it's exactly about Israel.
It dos't matter what he is talking about - he is part of the Israeli propaganda team which is now targeting the Labour Party
You can't rule as inadvisable what you use yourself (I say "can't" advisedly - you always do when you find yourself in a corner.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 May 16 - 02:16 PM

ok....ok... Keith...

.. if I can keep a straight face for long enough.....


"From: punkfolkrocker - PM
Date: 29 May 16 - 09:40 AM

This is Keith's thread about the UK Labour Party,.. not.. and repeat... not.. about Israel,
as he rightfully reminds us from time to time whenever he starts getting a bit uncomfortable.....".... 😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 May 16 - 02:12 PM

This really is not anything to do with Israel.
It is about Labour's problem with anti-semitism.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 May 16 - 01:57 PM

Keith - oh.. I really gotta see the expression on your face while you're typing all that...

.. Which one of us would crack up giggling first...!!!??? 😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 May 16 - 01:47 PM

Your quoting pro-Israeli spokesmen like Sacradoti makes it about Israel.

It was the Indy that quoted him, but talking about anti-semitism.
What does it matter what his views on Israel are if that was not even being discussed?
It is about anti-semitism not Israel!

what Labour is doing to combat antisemitism is a shining example to the rest of them.

It has done nothing much so far, but if other parties do have any instances of anti-semitism they will know how not to deal with it.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 May 16 - 10:44 AM

Bobad digs up mad Richard Kemp and Keith digs up arch-Zionist Sacerdoti. With friends like those...😂

I suggest a good read of this link provided by Keith.

"The (Labour Party)NEC are appalled by recent cases of anti-Semitic abuse. Anti-Semitism has no place in the Labour Party and is contrary to everything we stand for."
http://labourlist.org/2016/05/alice-perrys-nec-report-corbyn-fighting-prejudice-and-listening-to-voters-online/

The report goes into detail about Labour's concerns over antisemitism and details current actions on the matter. I actually think that, compared to other major organisations, including the other political parties and big religions, what Labour is doing to combat antisemitism is a shining example to the rest of them. You wouldn't glean that from Keith's single negative soundbite quote from the report, above, would you? There's a rancid stink of hypocrisy around here.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 16 - 10:02 AM

"This is not about Israel."
All of a sudden
Your quoting pro-Israeli spokesmen like Sacradoti makes it about Israel.
If the pro-Israeli propaganda machine has infiltrated institutions such as the BBC it is exactlyt about Israel - and the fact that you have refused to BBC confessions of pro-Israeli bias is indicative that you know it is about Israel
"Thread drift" is an old standby of your and it has never worked
Israel is now in the hands of an extreme right wing regime the like of which has not been seen since the end of WW2 - that is now being said by leading Israelis who are or have been part of that regime.
As a claimed supporter of the Jewish people, does that not worry you?
I don't really expect a response to this, but your silence is enough.
You have no interest in the Jewish people - your concern is for your right-wing friends in Israel.
Your running-mate, Bobad's loyalties are the same.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 May 16 - 09:59 AM

Keith - that's priceless... I wish I could see your face while you're typing some of this... 😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 May 16 - 09:50 AM

This is not about Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 May 16 - 09:48 AM

Hands up in the air anyone who wants to join in creating such an oppressive climate of fear within the UK Labour Party
that not a single member or voter will ever dare utter another sentence including the words Israel, Jew, or any variant thereof, ever, ever, again... 🤐

.. except for the nice Labour Party supporters already on our side who absolutely adore Israel...

Three cheers for Israel... hip hip... 🙄

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 May 16 - 09:39 AM

Sadiq Khan said Corbyn was ignoring Labour antisemitism.

And, "The (Labour Party)NEC are appalled by recent cases of anti-Semitic abuse. Anti-Semitism has no place in the Labour Party and is contrary to everything we stand for."
http://labourlist.org/2016/05/alice-perrys-nec-report-corbyn-fighting-prejudice-and-listening-to-voters-online/

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 May 16 - 09:23 AM

But you thought you'd go ahead with the smear anyway. Don't say things you can't back up. You won't get away with it here. You have tried to get us to pass a judgement on Ms Walker that the Labour Party doesn't agree with. You did it by using the eye-catching BBC top line only and failed to move down to the relevant details, unlike the BBC report. Why did you do that? Because the relevant details, contained in the whole of her comment, severely water down the criticism, and, naturally, that doesn't suit your case. You'd rather like the Labour Party to be riddled with antisemites, wouldn't you? Well tough luck. It isn't. She did not say, as yiu claim, that "the Jews were responsible for the slave trade." Do you think we can't read?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 16 - 09:16 AM

"It was the first three sentences of the BBC report."
""Jonathan Sacerdoti, of the Campaign Against Antisemitism, said: "If the Labour Party has truly readmitted a member ....!

Some of the facts Keith conveniently ignored in his selection of evidence for Antisemitism in the Lablor Party - the main one being that the evidnce is coming directly from pro-Israel activists.

But Sacerdoti is exactly the opposite of a disinterested 'expert' voice on the ongoing violence. Just two years ago he was Director of Public Affairs for the Zionist Federation, perhaps the loudest and most shrill pro-Israel lobby group in the UK.

The day after Israel killed nine activists on the Mavi Marmara flotilla, he appeared defending that attack on Al Jazeera and on Sky News. In August 2011 he spoke at a pro-Israel rally in Trafalgar Square organised by the British Israel Coalition and supported by the Israeli government-linked StandWithUs.

On 6 July 2010 he met Israeli President Shimon Peres and uploaded an entire album on to Flickr documenting the occasion. He captioned a photo of him shaking hands with Peres,'Jonathan Sacerdoti, of Her Majesty's Secret Service'.

Sacerdoti has worked with Brenner to make a 'Buy Israeli Goods Day' video intended to counter the Boycott Divestment and Sanctions movement's call not to buy goods made in Israel or by companies complicit in the occupation. He was also elected to the Board of Deputies of British Jews' International Division, a committed pro-Israel body. In May 2010 Sacerdoti reportedly spoke publicly about 'ways to use Facebook, Twitter and other online resources to advocate for Israel' at a Zionist Federation Israel advocacy event called 'Talk for Israel'.
It is clear that Sacerdoti is a committed pro-Israel activist. But viewers were given a distorted impression about his background by BBC news.
Who is Jonathan Sacradoti

A pretty obvious propaganda plot, I'd say.
BBC fesses up
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 May 16 - 09:00 AM

It was not partial quoting Steve.
It was the first three sentences of the BBC report.
I highlighted the bit that was the most blatantly anti-semitic slur, that the Jews were responsible for the slave trade by being its "chief financiers."

I only suggested a possible motive for individuals within FRA seeking to suppress the definitions.
Neither of us can say if it was a personal agenda or what that might be.
The fact remains that it is still on the EU site on the more relevant pages of the EPWG.

It has not been "dropped" just moved.
You were all wrong about that.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 May 16 - 07:55 AM

JEWS !!!!!....

Off you go then bob 'n' keith...

There's a big bold statement for you to do your best to insinuate antisemitic intent... 🙄


Here's a helpful hint... I will definitely vote Labour.....

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 30 May 16 - 06:57 AM

Doubt it Steve, I doubt it.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 May 16 - 06:44 AM

The BBC report included the transcript from Facebook, which contained her whole sentence. There was no bold emphasis of any words. Here's what she actually wrote:

..and many Jews (my ancestors too) were the chief financiers of the sugar and slave trade which is of course why there were so many early synagogues in the Caribbean.

Until I dragged that out of you by challenging your partial quoting, here's what you said she said, and you put it in quotes:
.
...wrote about "the African holocaust" and Jews as "chief financiers of the slave trade". "

The BBC was honest and neutral enough to follow its journalistic introduction with the full transcript. You were not. In spite of the fact that you left out the bit about sugar, and in spite of the fact that she didn't just say "Jews," and in spite of the fact that there was no bold emphasis in her remarks, you chose to convey to us with speech marks that you were quoting verbatim. You provided no link for us to check your quote. But I don't trust you, so I went to the trouble. It's quite clear that you were determined to tar Ms Walker with the antisemite brush.

"If some people at or near the top of FRA sought to suppress the definitions of anti-semitism, perhaps because of some personal agenda, they did not succeed."

A ridiculous accusation and a totally unjustified smear. If you have any evidence whatsoever for this, let's be having it. Are there no lengths you'll go to to save your miserable skin?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 May 16 - 05:39 AM

First two sentences of Indy report,

"A senior Momentum organiser has been readmitted to the Labour party following her suspension earlier this month for saying Jewish people were the "chief financiers of the sugar and slave trade".

In a Facebook post about the trans-Atlantic slave trade, Jackie Walker, the vice-chair of the left-wing Labour Party-linked movement, wrote: "I'm sure you know, millions more Africans were killed in the African Holocaust and their oppression continues today on a global scale in a way it doesn't for Jews...and many Jews (my ancestors too) were the chief financiers of the sugar and slave trade which is of course why there were so many early synagogues in the Caribbean. "

Final two sentences,
"Jonathan Sacerdoti, of the Campaign Against Antisemitism, said: "If the Labour Party has truly readmitted a member who publicly subscribes to anti-Semitic conspiracy theories of Jews financing and causing the slave trade, their ongoing inquiry into anti-Semitism can barely be taken seriously."

He added that for the Labour Party to readmit people who spread "malicious myths" about Jews "tells us that anti-Semitism in the Labour Party is becoming institutional"."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/anti-semitism-row-momentum-organiser-jackie-walker-readmitted-to-labour-party-following-racism-a7053966.html

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 May 16 - 04:32 AM

If some people at or near the top of FRA sought to suppress the definitions of anti-semitism, perhaps because of some personal agenda, they did not succeed.

As soon as they took it it down, the European Parliament Working Group on Anti-Semitism put it back on the EU site. It is more their remit anyway.

So in the eleven years since the definitions were formulated, for how many days have they been absent from EU pages?

Keith has done what Keith always does, uses partial quotes out of context, to blacken the name of Jackie Walker.

Another false accusation Steve.
I just pasted the first 3 sentences of the BBC report.

"A senior Labour activist who was suspended from the party over alleged anti-Semitic comments on Facebook has been reinstated.
Jackie Walker's suspension was lifted following an investigation, the party said.
The Kent activist and vice chair of the Momentum movement wrote about "the African holocaust" and Jews as "chief financiers of the slave trade". "
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-36405130

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 16 - 04:09 AM

"!A perfect example of how the press dupes the gullible!"
Quite agree Bobad; that's truely appalling.
How dare the Independent forget to mention that there are between 500 and 700 Palestinian children in military custody at the present time.
That's the press for you!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: DMcG
Date: 30 May 16 - 02:43 AM

It' is also worth remembering that while there were about 6million Jews killed in the Holocaust, there were about 5 million non-Jews. My sister lives near Bergen-Belson and I have spent many hours there reflecting on what happened. But it saddens me that you have to leave the site and walk off down a path into a separate area to find the memorial to all the Soviet prisoners killed there.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 May 16 - 07:23 PM

So Corbyn is a very wicked devil of a man now because he hasn't yet replied to an invite...!!!??..


f@ck me that's pathetically desperate...!!!!!


Yeah.. he's up to his neck in elections and fending off malicious attacks, let alone all the usual day to day business of running the opposition party..

.. yet he'a swine now for not dropping everything to fly half way round the world just to attend a symbolic PR photo opportunity...???? 😣

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 May 16 - 07:15 PM

Well, anonymous Guest-troll aka "bobad," I'm a person of the left and I've been to several Holocaust memorials. I shed tears in the Holocaust museum in Prague as I
read as many of the 80,000 names on the walls as I could. We weren't allowed to take pictures but I do have photos of the Jewish cemetery close by. I could send you some. I suppose it's antisemitic to decline an invite to a Holocaust memorial. Is that what you're saying? Yes or no will do!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 May 16 - 07:14 PM

Yeah.. The fantastical 'let's pretend we're real influential grown ups' world of student Union politics..!!!

This is getting so desperate Bob & Keith will soon be quoting the stance of Primary school Children's Councils on anti-semitism..... 🙄

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 29 May 16 - 06:41 PM

This is what the left has been reduced to -- choosing a leader whose antisemitism is covered only by the thinnest veil ever invented.

Last month, amid ongoing anti-Semitism row in British party, Israel's opposition head wrote a letter urging its leaders to visit Holocaust memorial; Corbyn has not replied

TOI

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Partym
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 May 16 - 04:54 PM

Do keep up, Bobad old bean. There has been no EUMC for nine years. And the guidelines were scrapped three years ago. You're already a troll, an extremely dishonest person and a laughing stock. Try not to make it worse for yourself. Read the thread. As for the NUS, they are just as much all over the place as they were when I was a member forty years ago. By the way, tell us what the NUS president thinks as well as the vice-president. We do like balance, you know. 😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 29 May 16 - 01:25 PM

Vice President of the NUS, Richard Brooks, confirmed that the organisation subscribes to EUMC's (European Union Monitoring Centre) definition of anti-Semitism, which specifically says "making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective — such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media" is anti-Semitic.

The Tab

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 May 16 - 09:40 AM

This is Keith's thread about the UK Labour Party,.. not.. and repeat... not.. about Israel,
as he rightfully reminds us from time to time whenever he starts getting a bit uncomfortable.....


If Israel is so great, why is it such an apparently thuggish trouble maker, and why is it constantly stealing from and getting in fights with it's neighbours,
perpetually manipulating the truth and blaming everyone else for all the problems...???

If Israel was a family on a provincial UK Council Estate
the police would be regularly getting called out to have a word with them,
and the Housing Agency might be sending them warning letters about improving their behaviour or risk serious consequences...


My mrs works with such dysfunctional anti-social families and knows how utterly soul destroying her working week can be... 😫

She especially feels the despairing futility and helplessness of the children of these families.....

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 May 16 - 09:11 AM

Ah yes, Richard Kemp, Israel sycophant and well-known nut job. Hear what this fair- minded bloke says about women? Kemp is against women serving in the army's Infantry arm, stating that that they lack "ferocity, aggression and killer instinct." Well there's a man whose judgement we can trust! 😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 29 May 16 - 09:03 AM

A perfect example of how the press dupes the gullible into demonizing Israel - and the haters just lap it up and spew it out:

YouTube

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 29 May 16 - 08:40 AM

Colonel Richard Kemp speaks truth to those who would demonize, slander and distort the truth about Israel in order to bring about her isolation and destroy her:

YouTube

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 16 - 08:27 AM

"Actually it's "Palestinian" aggression towards Jews that the Israelis are defending themselves against"
Only if you ignore the massacres,, the land seizures, the attempts to create an apartheid State..... and all the other crimes that the U.S. has used its vetoes to protect them from standing trial for.   
The Palestinians are defending themselves froin 'The Israelis' not the Jews and only an Antisemite would suggest otherwise (according to the definition)
It is little wonder that some of Israel's opponent describe blame "the Jews" - that is who the Israelis blame for their crimes.
You won't respond to this (either of you) but it's fact nonetheless.
Silence is a plea of "guilty as charged" as far as I'm concerned.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 29 May 16 - 07:33 AM

Israeli aggression towards Palestinians

Actually it's "Palestinian" aggression towards Jews that the Israelis are defending themselves against. But you know that and, as usual, are perpetuating lies to demonize a country and it's people, as those of your ilk are wont to do.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 May 16 - 07:13 AM

Keith has done what Keith always does, uses partial quotes out of context, to blacken the name of Jackie Walker. Personally I think she was foolish to apply "holocaust" to any other event than The Holocaust. I hope she had her wrist slapped for that. She has a long history of fighting racism and is vehemently opposed to Israeli aggression towards Palestinians. Her point about perpetrators and victims was right on the money. Both she and her partner are of Jewish descent. Was she right about Jews and the slave trade? Either she was or she wasn't. I wouldn't have put things that way myself. Jews were involved in the slave trade. Not all Jews, and not all slave traders were Jews. Either we are allowed to talk about it or we are not. If we are, then Jews is the word we have to use. Taken in context, her remarks were, arguably, ill-advised. But they were not antisemitic, because she was not attacking Jews because they are Jews. Politicians need to have regard fo the potential outcome of their remarks. At present, Labour is under the spotlight apropos of alleged antisemitism. The real antisemites in our right-wing parties, in Israel and in the major religions must be laughing their socks off.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 May 16 - 12:31 PM

We have not raised an "issue." We have raised a factual point that is totally verifiable for all the world to see but which you can't bring yourself to accept. You have turned that simple and straightforward thing into an issue, not us!

"Why would it need to be on the FRA website as well?"

What a stupid thing to say. It WAS on the FRA website. Until 2013. Read my Wiesenthal piece. The Beeb invoked it. Then they went into reverse BECAUSE THEY FOUND OUT THAT THE FRA HAD REMOVED IT AND DISCARDED IT. The FRA did not remove it and discard it because it went up on somebody else's website. They removed it and discarded it because it was never an official EU document. They were having a clear-out. It's all there, from the horse's mouth, in that post. They could have referred the BBC to your other website, but they didn't. Why not? Because it was not an official document that they were able to refer the BBC to, and it never was, that's why not! Jesus, this is fun! If I ever decide to buy you something for your birthday I'll get you a framed copy. The frame will be rather ornate, consisting of lots of little pink elephants all holding each others' tails, all the way round the frame. Oh yes, I can see it now... 😂😂😂

I actually believe that I'm beginning to feel sorry for you....

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 May 16 - 12:10 PM

Keith - why do you single yourself out...??? 🙄


You are the only one here we see teetering so far out on a precarious limb....

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 May 16 - 11:57 AM

BBC 2 hours ago,

"A senior Labour activist who was suspended from the party over alleged anti-Semitic comments on Facebook has been reinstated.
Jackie Walker's suspension was lifted following an investigation, the party said.
The Kent activist and vice chair of the Momentum movement wrote about "the African holocaust" and Jews as "chief financiers of the slave trade". "

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 May 16 - 11:54 AM

Pfr, I am just responding to Steve and Rag.
They raised the issue.
I was trying to discuss Labour's current problems.

Why did you single me out?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 May 16 - 11:39 AM

"If I was you I'd stop wasting time and energy fretting about all this arcane definitions bollox"
When he has nothing else, no alternative - so take your pick
"Whatever" is as good a reply as any.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 May 16 - 11:15 AM

Keith - If I was you I'd stop wasting time and energy fretting about all this arcane definitions bollox
and just accept the pragmatic use of the umbrella term 'racism';
and apply a bit of common sense if you think you know some jews who are genuinely being picked on and bullied...... 😣

Life can actually be a lot simpler and saner than you are making it for your self................

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 May 16 - 10:47 AM

Whatever Keith

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 May 16 - 10:12 AM

Rag,
Except that is EXACTLY what was reported in the Times of Israel in December 2013.

It said the definitions were "dropped" but as you have seen, they are not dropped.
They are still there on the EU website as they have been for eleven years!

Steve,
the official EU organisation that succeeded the body that drew up the document in the first place?) and you will not find the document. It was never restored, in spite of the pleas from the SWC. It's gone for good, Keith

But it is not "gone for good" Steve!
As I keep telling you, the "WORKING DEFINITION OF ANTISEMITISM" is now published on the pages of the "European Parliament Working Group On Anti Semitism."
Why would it need to be on the FRA site as well?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 May 16 - 07:07 AM

Concerning a letter from the Simon Wiesenthal Center to Baroness Ashton. Paris, 6 November 2013. Taken from wiesenthal.com

In a letter to European Union Representative for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, Baroness Catherine Ashton of Upholland (pictured), the Simon Wiesenthal Centre's
Director for International Relations, Dr. Shim On Samuels, expressed shock, "To read on 'Electronic Intifada' website that the European Union's Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (EUMC) – now renamed the Fundamental Rights Agency (FRA) – 2004 'Working Definition of Anti-Semitism' has been removed from the Fundamental Rights Agency (FRA) website."

The letter noted, "The BBC Trust, in addressing a complaint, had upheld the definition, in characterizing as anti-Semitic, a broadcaster's critique of comments on Israel made by a Member of the UK Parliament. The Trust has now, apparently, reversed its ruling following the Definition's removal, claiming:

'A press officer at the FRA has explained that this was a discussion paper and was never adopted by the EU as a working definition, although it has been on the FRA website until recently when it was removed during a clear-out of non-official documents. The link to the FRA site provided by the complainant in his appeal no longer works.'"

Samuels argued that:


— the EUMC carried the name 'European Union' in its title and all its published decisions are therefore official documents of the EU

— the FRA, as the successor to the EUMC, carries responsibility for the documents of its predecessor as part of its DNA"



The Centre therefore called on EU Baroness Ashton to:


— launch an investigation into the disappearance of the Working Definition and the coincidental change in the FRA website address

— return this important document to the current FRA website

— ensure that the appropriate EU bodies endorse the Working Definition in its entirety

Well, Keith, you can search the FRA website until you're blue in the face (the FRA, Keith - remember? - the official EU organisation that succeeded the body that drew up the document in the first place?) and you will not find the document. It was never restored, in spite of the pleas from the SWC. It's gone for good, Keith. It is the "official policy" of pro-Israel setups only. Denying as you do that it was discarded is a blatant lie. If it was never adopted as EU policy, and was cast aside by its own authors, you'd better look slightly differently at the places where you still find it. People like you who desperately want to cling to it. People who don't do enough googling and hope we won't notice. Of course you can find antisemitism-fighting websites that use it. They would, wouldn't they, knowing that it has a whiff, no matter how bogus, of EU officialdom about it. They can cite its source without telling us the inconvenient truth that its source discarded it years ago. Well, unless the Simon Wiesenthal Center, the Times Of Israel and Wikipedia are all deluded, of course. That is what's going on here, Keith. We know how much you love a document that prevents valid criticism of the Israeli regime. The trouble is, you love it so much that it's blinded you to the truth. Your behaviour in this thread, as with the Wheatcroft matter, has been shameful.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 May 16 - 06:08 AM

"WORKING DEFINITION OF ANTISEMITISM"
"Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.
However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic."
Therefore, it is Antisemitic to accuse people who criticise Israel of Antisemitism - which is what Israel does and what you have done., making you and Israel..........!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 May 16 - 06:02 AM

Duh !!

" There is no suggestion that it is not in force or not recognised by anyone"

Except that is EXACTLY what was reported in the Times of Israel in December 2013.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 May 16 - 05:44 AM

Therefore being able to call people Jew haters is official Mudcat policy. Right, Keith?

No Steve.
Anyone can post to Mudcat. It is an open forum.
You have to be accredited by EU to publish stuff on their pages.

The "WORKING DEFINITION OF ANTISEMITISM" is published on the site of the "European Parliament Working Group On Anti Semitism."

It says "The purpose of this document is to provide a practical guide for identifying incidents, collecting data, and supporting the implementation and enforcement of legislation dealing with antisemitism."
http://www.antisem.eu/projects/eumc-working-definition-of-antisemitism/

There is no suggestion that it is not in force or not recognised by anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 May 16 - 04:20 PM

Bobad calls people Jew haters on this website. The posts are still there. Therefore being able to call people Jew haters is official Mudcat policy. Right, Keith? 😂

Now I asked you some questions. You haven't answered a single one. They're reiterated at 02.48 pm. It really should be very simple for you if you're so sure you're not lying. Fire away, Keith. Finish me off. Chapter and verse, please.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 May 16 - 03:07 PM

Their appearance on some website or other is not evidence that they are official EU policy

Yes it is.
Having been previously published by two previous EU bodies over the last eleven years, it is now published by "The EU Working Group On Anti Semitism."
An Eu body on an EU website.

Its stated purpose is "supporting the implementation and enforcement of legislation dealing with antisemitism."

Not theoretical. Not in any particular EU state or states.
There are no exclusions specified, so why do you claim it?

Answer, because you have been caught out, shown to be wrong and made to look silly.

And your silly attempts at ridicule have rebounded on your silly head because you were wrong and I was right.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 May 16 - 03:06 PM

Their appearance on some website or other is not evidence that they are official EU policy

Yes it is.
Having been previously published by two previous EU bodies over the last eleven years, it is now published by "The EU Working Group On Anti Semitism."
An Eu body on an EU website.

Its stated purpose is "supporting the implementation and enforcement of legislation dealing with antisemitism."

Not theoretical. Not in any particular EU state or states.
There are no exclusions specified, so why do you claim it?

Answer, because you have been caught out, shown to be wrong and made to look silly.

And your silly attempts at ridicule have rebounded on your silly head because you were wrong and I was right.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 May 16 - 02:48 PM

You are lying. You don't want to think the criteria have been dropped because you rather like them. So you make the seriously mistaken claim that they haven't been dropped. Well in a sense you're right. You can't drop something that was never adopted in the first place! 😂😂😂. You can't face the fact that you made a mistake so you're going to repeat the lie until kingdom come in the hope that it will eventually go away. I have challenged you to demonstrate that the criteria are current official EU policy. You can't, because they are not. Their appearance on some website or other is not evidence that they are official EU policy UNLESS THAT IS EXPRESSLY STATED, which it never is. I have challenged you to show that, despite all the reports, the criteria were never shelved (they were, by an official EU body as it happens, the FRA, in December 2013). I challenged you to demonstrate that the criteria were ever adopted at all as official EU policy. You can't, because they never were. We are not fools, Keith. Unlike you, we can check things out with our eyes open, not just looking for confirmation of our prejudices. You should be ashamed of yourself. And while I live and breathe and am allowed to post here, I'm not letting you get away with insulting us with your lies.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 May 16 - 11:38 AM

Rag, it is not out of date.
As Steve pointed out, the EU organisations have evolved from EUMC to FRA to EPWG.
All have republished the criteria including in the last 3 years.

Steve, this is not "just some antisemitism dot com website."
This is the relevant EU website.
It is the site of the European Parliament Working Group On Anti Semitism.
It is their "WORKING DEFINITION OF ANTISEMITISM" and has been for eleven years.

It says "The purpose of this document is to provide a practical guide for identifying incidents, collecting data, and supporting the implementation and enforcement of legislation dealing with antisemitism."
http://www.antisem.eu/projects/eumc-working-definition-of-antisemitism/

You, Richard and Rag claimed it had been dropped.
It clearly has not.
You tried to support your false claim with a Wiki page, and Rag and Richard with a 3 year old uncorroborated ToI report that it was being dropped, but it never was.

You called me "a joke on legs" for demonstrating the facts as they actually are.
I was right and you were all wrong.
What does that make you Steve?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 May 16 - 04:35 PM

"The ToI said the definitions had been dropped, but they are still there.
I was right."

Prove it. Second request today: show us the official, mainstream, current EU website that has the guidelines up there, stated to be official EU policy. Not just some antisemitism dot com website. Show us that it doesn't say that they don't count, and what's more, they never did. But let me save you the bother and put you out of your misery. You can't do it, Keith. You can make assertions that you can't qualify. You've been caught out, and this is all you can do. You think that denying it repeatedly will eventually make us too fed up to carry on, so your face will be saved. No such luck, Keith. You should know me by now. Your Wheatcroft moment was over two years ago and I am not going to let it go away. You're a laughing stock, Keith, and your problem is entirely of your own making.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 May 16 - 03:52 PM

Professor if you look on the Internet you will see I am still associated with various organisations. I retired over FIVE years ago. I haven't been associated with one particular organisation for almost TEN years yet I am still mentioned on their website.

I know you believe everything you read on the internet (providing it fits your own preconceived ideas) but often the information you read is incorrect or, in the example above, grossly out of date.

Like I have said before .............. Whatever

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 May 16 - 02:59 PM

Keith - we all should know that any basis of truth or facts can be distorted and misrepresented,
depending on the bias of those reporting such 'facts' to a wider public audience...???

Sure some media is crude and totally dishonest enough to make up stories...

But Serious news media is certainly not innocent of spinning 'facts' any way required to fit their own ideological agenda and objectives...

That's no surprise... 😣

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 May 16 - 02:44 PM

Rag,
I would however consider the "Times of Israeli" to be a better arbiter than you with your selective cut and pastes from obscure websites.

The ToI said the definitions had been dropped, but they are still there.
I was right.

Steve,
Just repeats of his old lies that have been comprehensively debunked over and over again.
No lies Steve. I was right and you were wrong.
It is on the EU website, and always has been, with no disclaimers.
We have been discussing it here since February 2013 at least.

Pfr,
Or maybe like me, you only know of their alleged existence via mainstream media sources.

I know about their existence because the Labour Party National Executive Committe were "appalled by recent examples of anti-seitic abuse."
I doubt that they made it up.
Do you think they did?

Also Khan accused Corbyn of refusing to call out Labour anti-semitism. (no "ifs")
Do you think he made it up?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 May 16 - 09:37 AM

I'll add for context, that I live in a medium to large provincial west country town,
dominated by an elderly conservative population, and notorious for youth drug related crime....

.. and for a while our street had a hostel harbouring B*P supporting skinhead thugs who threatened trouble to black and asian residents...

[large B*P posters prominently displayed in front windows directly across the road from a young black family - police were aware, but apparently did nothing...???]

If anti-semitism was any major issue at all around here, I'm sure I'd at least be aware of even rumours by now... 😕

Now whilst I have quarter jewish blood, and also have blue eyes and a foreskin, I am obviously not regarded as a jew by their [your ???] religion and culture,
However some extremist white supremacists believe they have such finely attuned 'jewdar' that they could identify me as the 'enemy' within minutes.

In fact, a black Nigerian woman in London once became less friendly after she had suddenly convinced herself I was a jew...???

So, if I think about it there are places I myself would be seriously unsafe from anti-semitism..

That is an actual nasty fact of life, not just paranoid over anxiety...

So, as a potential victim of anti-semitism [fingers crossed, more hypothetical than real threat],
please don't even consider accusing me of ignoring or trivialising the issues...

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 May 16 - 09:11 AM

Or maybe like me, you only know of their alleged existence via mainstream media sources.....???????"

You forgot to include "Murdoch-owned, Conservative Party Propaganda-Rag" between 'via' and 'mainstream', PFR.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 May 16 - 08:50 AM

"Pfr, I did think that Labour's antisemitism had been revealed from within the party.
Sorry.
It is even more shocking that Labour ignored "appalling anti-semitic abuse" and it was left to outsiders to reveal it.
Would you have preferred that it remained hidden?

I do recall that Khan accused Corbyn of refusing to call out antisemitism."

I'll be honest with you Keith.. I don't actually know any antisemites within the Labour Party.
In fact I don't actually know any antisemites at all anywhere in real life.

The only openly xenophobic comments I hear expressed by drunks in the local social club, which might at all be construed as racist,
are regarding Polish immigrants...

I would not be surprised if these old drunks tend to vote UKIP, and are not keen on staying in the EU.

Perhaps you can tell us if you personally know any local Labour party branch members, or any where else in the country, who are actually actively antisemitic...???

Or maybe like me, you only know of their alleged existence via mainstream media sources.....??????? 😣

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 May 16 - 08:38 AM

Keith's back is to the wall. No more arguments. Just repeats of his old lies that have been comprehensively debunked over and over again. Keith, if you seriously think that the EU recognises, or ever recognised, that document as official EU policy (and deep down you know they don't and never did, of course you do) then show us where, on an official, mainstream, current EU website, ratified by the EU powers that be. Chapter and verse. Come along now. We haven't got all day...

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 May 16 - 08:32 AM

Whatever Keith


I would however consider the "Times of Israeli" to be a better arbiter than you with your selective cut and pastes from obscure websites.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 May 16 - 07:39 AM

Rag, Richard produced that quote three weeks ago.
My reply,
"05 May 16 - 04:15 AM   Richard, if it was dropped three years ago, why is it still on the website unchanged?

Richard was unable to reply.
Can you Rag?

Me again 3 days ago Rag,
"Three years ago there was a flurry of uncorroborated reports that the criteria were being dropped.
Today there is no evidence that it ever happened.
If you search for EU antisemetism criteria, you are directed to the original EUMC criteria on an EU page.
There is nothing on any EU page to suggest that they are no longer in force, and as you have been shown, they have been adopted by numerous organisations and states beyond the EU.
If they are no longer recognised, please direct us to an EU body that says so."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 May 16 - 07:31 AM

None of Bobad's list covrs in any way anything here other than the growing claims by high ranking Israelis that what is happening in Israel today is comparable with pre-war Germany
Date: 25 May 16 - 06:25 AM
The date on Bobad's cut-'n-paste says it all -June 8, 2010 - a lot of blood has flowed under the bridge since then.
The U.S. definition carefully avoids the one that the European one faced head-on, Israel's responsibility towards the Jewish people as a whole.
The old one says that it was not Antisemitic to criticise Israeli behaviour - this one doesn't.
The old one says it was Antisemitic to equate the actions of Isreal with the Jewish People as a whole - this one doesn't.
This is not a definition to combat Antisemitism; if is a defence of Israeli war crimes and acts of terrorism - it is hardly surprising that the U.S. has used its U.N. veto over a hundred times to prevent Israeli State terrorism being condemned internationally.
Given the current swing to the extreme right in Israel, this is a very dangerous situation for the world to be in.
We really have been here before - in the 1930s
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 26 May 16 - 06:59 AM

Defining Anti-Semitism

Fact Sheet
Special Envoy To Monitor and Combat Anti-Semitism
Washington, DC
June 8, 2010
   
"Anti-Semitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews. Rhetorical and physical manifestations of anti-Semitism are directed toward Jewish or non-Jewish individuals and/or their property, toward Jewish community institutions and religious facilities." --Working Definition of Anti-Semitism by the European Monitoring Center on Racism and Xenophobia
Contemporary Examples of Anti-Semitism

    Calling for, aiding, or justifying the killing or harming of Jews (often in the name of a radical ideology or an extremist view of religion).
    Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as a collective—especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions.
    Accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group, the state of Israel, or even for acts committed by non-Jews.
    Accusing the Jews as a people, or Israel as a state, of inventing or exaggerating the Holocaust.
    Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interest of their own nations.


What is Anti-Semitism Relative to Israel?

EXAMPLES of the ways in which anti-Semitism manifests itself with regard to the state of Israel, taking into account the overall context could include:

DEMONIZE ISRAEL:

    Using the symbols and images associated with classic anti-Semitism to characterize Israel or Israelis
    Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis
    Blaming Israel for all inter-religious or political tensions

DOUBLE STANDARD FOR ISRAEL:

    Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation
    Multilateral organizations focusing on Israel only for peace or human rights investigations

DELEGITIMIZE ISRAEL:

    Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, and denying Israel the right to exist

However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as anti-Semitic.

U.S. Department of State

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 May 16 - 05:59 AM

I'm not bothered whether he changes his mind or not. It would just be nice if he could tell the unvarnished truth without the constant twisting, turning and pathetic attempts to divert us away from his errors.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 May 16 - 05:51 AM

The fact that Keith wants to talk about definitions and ignore the realities of an increasingly extremist right-wing Israeli regime using those definitions to defend its actions says all that needs to be said.
I have to say that allowing him to do so by joining in his arguments is feeding the troll - as you said elsewhere Steve - you're never going to change his mind
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 May 16 - 04:48 AM

Yep. The first two paragraphs of that tell you that the document is defunct, there is no replacement definition and that the EUMC no longer exists. I told you it was easy to find out. Shh, don't tell Keith. He's probably busy rewriting history on the Rising thread.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 May 16 - 04:46 AM

Should read Times of Israel. Oooops

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 May 16 - 04:41 AM

Isreali Times

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 May 16 - 04:29 AM

Keith, your posts regarding the defunct antisemitism document are full of inaccuracies, misunderstandings, mischaracterisations and downright lies. Your modus operandi, as ever, is to try to throw fluff all around the issue in order to save your skin. Well that doesn't wash with me I'm afraid. It's all too easy to see what you're up to. It's another Wheatcroft moment and it's going to keep coming back to bite you. Anyone who cares and who has a willing googling finger can find out in two minutes flat how you're trying to mislead us.

"Still there on an EU web page with no disclaimers..." Ha!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 May 16 - 03:37 AM

The name has been altered slightly, but it is the same body.
Whatever that EU body is now called, the EUMC working definition of anti-semitism is still there on an EU web page with no disclaimers, and the slightly renamed EUMC is still working against anti-semitism, so all your claims are shown to be false as usual.

Pfr, I did think that Labour's antisemitism had been revealed from within the party.
Sorry.
It is even more shocking that Labour ignored "appalling anti-semitic abuse" and it was left to outsiders to reveal it.
Would you have preferred that it remained hidden?

I do recall that Khan accused Corbyn of refusing to call out antisemitism.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 May 16 - 02:07 PM

Nowhere does it say that the current projects you refer to are EUMC projects. You are going on to the website of a completely different organisation. Your EUMC does not exist, Keith. Now of course we all know why you're doing this. You've been caught out, you've made a complete fool of yourself and your foolish pride refuses to let you back down. I invite any of your allies to counteract anything I've said. There is no EUMC any more, it was replaced by the FRA, the guidelines you keep wittering on about are long-defunct and are accepted by no official EU body. Simple, checkable, wiki or anywhere else. All YOU can do is direct us to a setup that is not the EUMC (how could it be!), and even there there is no support for those guidelines. Now go off and make an honest man of yourself, Keith. You are being completely ridiculous. You are flailing, failing and in danger of derailing. Disgusting, busting, unworthy of trusting. Sad, bad and possibly barking mad. It's good fun though, innit.

Incidentally, the EUMC was (WAS, Keith) the European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia. It was not the body that was the forerunner of the body you refer to in your link. The successor, and the only successor, was the FRA. All checkable, all true. But don't let that stop you digging, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 May 16 - 12:08 PM

Steve, your "report" was from Wiki, not the EU, and it is demonstrably wrong.

" In November 2013 the definition was removed from the organisation's website in 'a clear-out of non-official documents'"

It is still there in all its original glory. Remember?

You also are demonstrably wrong again Steve,

Yes, there is an EUMC. But it's the European Union Military Committee.

The EUMC is the European Parliament Working Group on Anti-Semitism, and here is a link to some of its CURRENT projects.
http://www.antisem.eu/projects/

And here is a link to its anti-semitism criteria, which you claim is not there!

"EUMC WORKING DEFINITION OF ANTISEMITISM
WORKING DEFINITION OF ANTISEMITISM
The purpose of this document is to provide a practical guide for identifying incidents, collecting data, and supporting the implementation and enforcement of legislation dealing with antisemitism."
http://www.antisem.eu/projects/eumc-working-definition-of-antisemitism/

Note, my links are all to EU pages, not Wiki!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 May 16 - 08:58 AM

"Pfr,

.. because no other party was 'victim' of a concerted intensive strategic attack of malicious accusations in the run up to the elections...

It all came from within Labour."


Oh no it didn't..

Oh yes it did..

Oh no it didn't..

Oh yes it did..

Oh no it didn't..

Oh yes it did.... etc.. etc.. ad infinitum.....

Oh dear boys and girls.. have we now really descended to this pantomime level of debate....?????


Apparently so... 🙄



Keith - this is what the Guardian had to say about the notorious noxious self promoting 'personality' who kicked off the Naz Shah 'scandal'

"Right-wing blogger Paul Staines is a man with an instinct for retribution and vendetta. For almost ten years he has been claiming scalps in Westminster. So who's next?"

Paul De Laire Staines aka Guido Fawkes is a serial destroyer of political reputations.. he does it for financial gain and vainglory.

He is most definitely not 'within the Labour Party'

The right wing media that gleefully ran with the Naz Shan scandal story, are most definitely not owned or run from 'within the Labour Party'

The Israeli regime supporters and propagandists who jumped on the bandwagon in order use this well timed excuse to punish Corbyn and his allies
are mostly not 'within the Labour Party'...

Though obviously at this stage in the attack, the Israeli Regime propaganda network might count on some Jewish Labour party members conforming to peer pressure
to voice their concerns from 'within the Labour Party'..


Then after all this.. [and I'll let you have this one Keith]
it's the turn of the blairites, bitterites, malignant vengeful right wing factions 'within the Labour Party'
to seize their opportunity to have a kick at Corbyn's head while they think he is pinned down defenseless on the ground...


Keith - but of course you will ignore all that as it does't fit your biased preconceptions...??? 😣

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 May 16 - 07:21 AM

Bad English. Grr.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 May 16 - 07:17 AM

It isn't difficult to see why a "wider definition of antisemitism" would be not just a lie (because true antisemitism is to do with hating Jews BECAUSE THEY ARE JEWS, nothing else) but also because it would prevent the very measured criticism of Israeli regimes of the kind we read in Jim's link.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 May 16 - 06:25 AM

This from this morning's Irish Times
Jim Carroll

THE PARALLELS I SEE BETWEEN ISRAEL AND 1930's GERMANY
Uvi Avnery
Opinion
"The racist Bills being enacted by the Knesset are very similar to laws adopted in the early days of the Nazi regime"

"Please don't write about Ya'ir Golan!' a friend begged me. "Anything a leftist like you writes will only harm him." So I abstained for some weeks. But I cannot keep quiet any longer.
Gen Ya'ir Golan, deputy chief of staff of the Israeli army, made a speech on Holocaust Memorial Day. Wearing his uniform, he read a prepared, well-consid- ered text that triggered an uproar which has not yet died down.
Dozens of articles have been published in its wake, some condemning him, some lauding him. It seems that nobody could stay indifferent.
The main sentence was: "If there is something that frightens me about the memories of the Holocaust, it is the knowledge of the awful processes which happened in Europe in general, and in Germany in particular, 70,80,90years ago, and finding traces of them here in our midst, today, in 2016."
All hell broke loose. Traces of Nazism in Israel? A resemblance between what the Nazis did to us with what we are doing to the Palestinians?
Ninety years ago was 1926, one of the lastyears of the German republic. Eighty years ago was 1936, three years after the Nazis came to power. Seventy years ago was 1946, on the morrow of Adolf Hitler's suicide and the end of the Nazi Reich.

Moral commandment
I feel compelled to write about the general's speech after all, because I was there.
As a child I was an eyewitness to the last years of the Weimar Republic (so-called because its constitution was shaped in Weimar, the town of Goethe and Schiller). As a politically alert boy I witnessed the Nazi Machtergreifung ("taking power") and the first six months of Nazi rule.
I know what Golan was speaking about. Though we belong to two different generations, we share the same background, Both our families come from small towns in western Germany. His father and I must have had a lot in common.
There is a strict moral commandment in Israel: nothing can be compared to the Holocaust. The Holocaust is unique. It happened to us, the Jews, because we are unique. (Religious Jews would add: "Because God has chosen us.")
I have broken this commandment. Just before Golan was born, I published (in Hebrew) a book called The Swastika, in which I recounted my childhood memories and tried to draw conclusions from them. It was on the eve of the Eichmann
trial, and I was shocked by the lack of knowledge about the Nazi era among young Israelis.
My book did not deal with the Holocaust, which took place when I was already living in Palestine, but with a question which troubled me throughout the years and which still does even today: how could it happen that Germany, perhaps the most cultured nation on Earth at the time, the homeland of Goethe, Beethoven and Kant, could democratically elect a raving psychopath such as Adolf Hitler as its leader?
The last chapter of the book was entitled It Can Happen Here!The title was drawn from a book by American novelist Sinclair Lewis, called ironically It Can't Happen Here, in which he described a Nazi takeover of the United States.
In this chapter I discussed the possibili- . ty of a Jewish Nazi-like party coming to power in Israel. My conclusion was that a Nazi party can come to power in any country on Earth, if the conditions are right. Yes, in Israel, too.
The book was largely ignored by the Israeli public, which at the time was overwhelmed by the storm of emotions evoked by the terrible disclosures of the Eichmann trial.
Now along comes Golan, an esteemed professional soldier, and says the same thing. And not as an improvised remark, but on an official occasion, wearing his general's uniform, reading from a prepared, well thought-out text.
The storm broke out and has yet to pass.

Inconvenient truths
Israelis have a self-protective habit: when confronted with inconvenient truths, they evade its essence and deal with a secondary, unimportant aspect. Of all the dozens and dozens of reactions in the written press, on TV and on political platforms, almost none confronted the general's painful contention.
No, the furious debate that broke out concerns the following questions: Is a high-ranking army officer allowed to voice an opinion about matters that concern the civilian establishment? And do so in army uniform? On an official occasion?
Should an army officer keep quiet about his political convictions? Or voice them only in closed sessions - or "relevant forums", as a furious Binyamin Netanyahu phrased it?
Golan enjoys a very high degree of respect in the army. As deputy chief of staff he was until now almost certainly a candidate for chief of staff, when the incumbent leaves the office after the customary four years.
The fulfilment of this dream, which is shared by every general staff officer, is now very remote. In practice, Golan has sacrificed his further advancement in order to utter his warning and give it the widest possible resonance.
One can only respect such courage. I don't believe I have ever met Golan and I don't know his political views. But I do admire his act.
Somehow I recall an article published by the British magazine Punch before the first World War, when a group of junior army officers issued a statement opposing the government's policy in Ireland. The magazine said that while disapproving of the opinion expressed by the mutinous officers, it took pride in the fact that such youthful officers were ready to sacrifice their careers for their convictions.
The Nazi march to power started in 1929, when a terrible worldwide economic crisis hit Germany. A tiny, ridiculous far-right party suddenly became a political force to be reckoned with.
From there it took it four years to become the largest party in the country and to take over power (though it still needed a coalition).

Frightening similarity
I was there when it happened, a boy in a family in which politics became the main topic at the dinner table. I saw how the republic broke down, gradually, slowly, step by step. I saw our family friends hoisting the swastika flag.
I saw my high-school teacher raising his arm when entering the class and saying, "Heil Hitler" for the first time (and then reassuring me in private that nothing had changed).
I was the only Jew in the entire gymnasi¬um (high school.) When the hundreds of boys - all taller than I was - raised their arms to sing the Nazi anthem and I did not, they threatened to break my bones if it happened again. A few days later we left Germany for good.
Golan was accused of comparing Israel to Nazi Germany. Nothing of the sort. A careful reading of his text shows that he compared developments in Israel to the events that led to the disintegration of the Weimar Republic. And that is a valid comparison.
Things happening in Israel, especially since the last election, bear a frightening similarity to those events. True, the process is quite different. German fascism arose from the humiliation of surrender in
the first World War, the occupation of the Ruhr by France and Belgium from 1923-25, the terrible economic crisis of 1929 and the misery of millions of unem¬ployed.
Israel is victorious in its frequent military actions, we live comfortable lives. The dangers threatening us are of a quite different nature. They stem from our victories, not from our defeats.
Indeed, the differences between Israel today and Germany then are far greater than the similarities. But those similarities do exist, and the general was right to point them out.
The discrimination against the Palestin¬ians in practically all spheres of life can be compared to the treatment of the Jews in the first phase of Nazi Germany. (The oppression of the Palestinians in the occupied territories resembles more the treatment of the Czechs in the "protector¬ate" after the Munich betrayal.)
The rain of racist Bills in the Knesset, those already adopted and those in the works, strongly resembles the laws adopted by the Reichstag in the early days of the Nazi regime. Some rabbis call for a
boycott of Arab shops. Like then. The call "Death to the Arabs" ("Judah verrecke"?) is regularly heard at soccer matches.
A member of parliament has called for the separation between Jewish and Arab newborns in hospital. A chief rabbi has declared that Goyim (non-Jews) were created by God to serve the Jews.
Our ministers for education and culture are busy subduing the schools, theatre and arts to the extreme rightist line, something known in German as Gleichschaltung. The supreme court, the pride of Israel, is being relentlessly attacked by the minister of justice. The Gaza Strip is a huge ghetto.
Of course, no one in their right mind would even remotely compare Netanyahu to Hitler, but there are political parties here which do emit a strong fascist smell. The political riffraff peopling the present Netanyahu government could easily have found their place in the first Nazi govern¬ment.
One of the main slogans of our present government is to replace the "old elite", considered too liberal, with a new one.
One of the main Nazi slogans was to replace "das System".

Army rule
By the way, when the Nazis came to power, almost all high-ranking officers of the German army were staunch anti-Nazis. They were even considering a putsch against Hitler. Their political leader was summarily executed a year later, when Hitler liquidated his opponents in his own party.
We are told that Golan is now protected by a personal bodyguard, something that has never happened to a general in the annals of Israel.
The general did not mention the occupation and the settlements, which are under army rule. However, he did mention the episode which occurred shortly before he gave this speech and which is still shaking Israel now: in occupied Hebron, under army rule, a soldier saw a seriously wounded Palestinian lying helplessly on the ground, approached him and killed him with a shot to the head.
The victim had tried to attack some soldiers with a knife, but did not constitute a threat to anyone any more. This was a clear contravention of army standing orders, and the soldier has been hauled before a court martial.
A cry went up around the country: the soldier is a hero! He should be decorated! Netanyahu called his father to assure him of his support.
Avigdor Lieberman entered the crowded courtroom in order to express his solidarity with the soldier. A few days later Netanyahu appointed Lieberman as minister for defence, the second most important office in Israel.
Before that, Golan received robust support from minister for defence Moshe Ya'alon and chief of staff Gadi Eisenkot. Probably this was the immediate reason for the kicking out of Ya'alon and the appointment of Lieberman in his place. It resembled a putsch.
It seems that Golan is not only a coura¬geous officer, but a prophet too. The inclusion of Lieberman's party in the government coalition confirms Golan's blackest fears. This is another fatal blow to the Israeli democracy.
Am I condemned to witness the same process for the second time in my life?

"The discrimination against the Palestinians in practically all spheres of life can be compared to the treatment of the Jews in the first phase of Nazi Germany"

Uri Avnery is a journalist and commentator

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 May 16 - 06:19 AM

Well, Keith, what can I say.

Yes, there is an EUMC. But it's the European Union Military Committee. Not what you think, Keith. Nothing to do with this topic at all. The EUMC you're talking about was superseded in 2007 by the FRA, and it wasn't just a name-change either. To save anyone who has yet to slit their own throat as a result of reading this thread from having to look all over the place, here are the relevant bits gleaned from wiki. No-one says you have to trust wiki, of course. Over to you if you don't. Here goes.

The FRA was established in 2007 as the successor to the European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (EUMC), which was also based in Vienna. The EUMC's mandate was narrower than that of the FRA, as it was restricted to issues of racism and xenophobia....

...Publications of the EUMC

EUMC published reports are available from the website here of the FRA, the EUMC successor agency. A selection is given below.

Report: Working Definition of Antisemitism

In 2005, the EUMC published a working definition of antisemitism, whose stated purpose was to "provide a guide for identifying incidents, collecting data and supporting the implementation and enforcement of legislation dealing with antisemitism." In November 2013 the definition was removed from the organisation's website in 'a clear-out of non-official documents'. A spokesperson stated that the document had never been viewed as a valid definition and that "We are not aware of any official definition".....

....The Report of the All-Party Parliamentary Inquiry into Antisemitism: Government Response 29 March 2007 noted that "from the EUMC's evidence to the Committee", the "definition is in fact a work in progress and has not been recommended to states for adoption."

In case Keith's lost his reading specs, I've put some bits in bold. I know that you can all manage without that, except Keith, so please don't feel insulted.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 May 16 - 04:08 AM

"If you search for the EU position on anti-semetism,"
Why on earth should anybody wish to do such a thing - do people need to "search" for definitions of words (Semitism by the way, perhaps you need to look up the spelling and you are now consistently spelling it incorrectly)
We know what Antisemitism is, some of us have been opposing it all our lives.
Rule books are only for those who wich to manipulate the subject for their own devices, as Israel has been doing.
Antisemitism is "discrimination against or prejudice or hostility toward Jews."discrimination against or prejudice or hostility toward Jews" - rule-books are for fine tuning.
The increasingly extremist right-wing Israeli regime (as described by many Israelis, including leading figures in the government and the army, not to mention Holocaust survivors and their decedents) is now tinkering with the term in order to justify its extremist behaviour.
It has shown contempt for the views of the Jewish people as a whole by describing those who disagree with its policies as "Self-hating Jews".
That ought to be indicative to anybody with half a brain that there is something rotten in the State of Israel.
How dare these people use the Jews to cover up their crimes?
The greatest threat to the Jewish people in the world today is the Israeli regime - not only has it destroyed the dream of those who survived the Holocaust and the dream of all persecuted Jews throughout history, but it is now painting a target on every Jew in the world marking them as being responsible for Sabra-Shatila, Gaza.... and every other atrocity that Israel has put its name to
It is spending many millions on its propaganda campaign and it very much a part of what is happening in the British Labour Party.
Of cours Labour has its share of racists and Antisemites, as has every Political Party - wartime Antisemitic activity among the Conservative of Britain was little more than unpunished treason.
You are not supporting, or even concerned with The Jews - all your efforts go into support for Israel - and that is Antisemitic, something you have accused others of, but are guilty of yourself, along with all the trolls who have posted to these threads
How about puting in some effort for the threat to The Jewish People rather than making yourself part of that threat

Israeli propaganda campaign

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 May 16 - 03:22 AM

Pfr,

.. because no other party was 'victim' of a concerted intensive strategic attack of malicious accusations in the run up to the elections...

It all came from within Labour.

steve,

Keith, you are becoming a laughing stock, a farce on legs. Everything I've told you about the document is true. It has no official standing in the EU or in any member states and has been long-discarded even by the body that drafted it (and draft-only was what it ever was).

Oh dear Steve. Everything you say is shite.
If you search for the EU position on anti-semetism, you are directed the the EUMC criteria exactly as they always have been since 2005.
There is no disclaimer on the page to say it is no longer recognised, even by a single EU state.

There is nothing on any of the current EUMC pages to suggest any such thing.
(Note "current" Steve. Your claim that it no longer exists was more shite)

There is nothing on any FRA page to suggest any such thing.

There is nothing on any EU page to suggest that the displayed criteria are not recognised, because your claims are all shite Steve.

Please either produce an EU statement to support your assertions, or stop insulting me for putting the actual facts from the EU website.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 May 16 - 02:21 PM

"Keith, you are becoming a laughing stock, a farce on legs"

Sorry to correct you Steve, but I think you have used the wrong tense.

I think you should have used the past tense.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 May 16 - 01:46 PM

"However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic."

That's it, Jim. The proviso in this sentence is completely unacceptable. In order to criticise Israel (or, better, the regime in Israel) similarly to any other country, they would have to be doing the same things wrong as any other country. So not too many other countries, for example, clear people from a different ethnic group from the best bits of land to make way for themselves. We can't say anything about that then unless we catch someone else doing it as well and criticise them just as much. That's all right then. Damned fine "guidelines," eh? What a pity the EU ditched 'em! Not fair!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 May 16 - 12:08 PM

Keith would seem to be a great proponent of a simple dirty political methodology I learned about on my degree 30 odd years ago...

Political persuasion is not so much about being right,
as about convincingly appearing to be right in the eyes of a ill informed gullible public;
... even when you know you are blatantly lying ....

It's all about assertive deceptive power grabbing.. ends justify the means... eh...?????? 😠

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 May 16 - 11:51 AM

"The EUMC working definition. "
"Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel."
"However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 May 16 - 11:39 AM

Keith, you are becoming a laughing stock, a farce on legs. Everything I've told you about the document is true. It has no official standing in the EU or in any member states and has been long-discarded even by the body that drafted it (and draft-only was what it ever was). Just because it still exists in selected locations online doesn't prove a thing. Even the Times Of Israel knows it was ditched and bemoaned the fact, years ago. Go on, look it up. Now you may be hoping against hope that no-one will be reading this any more. But if on the off-chance anyone still is, in two minutes flat of researching they will find that everything you've said about it is wrong and everything I've said about it is right. That does not make me clever and you not. That makes me honest and you lamentably devious, at this point merely trying to save your skin. Read my lips, Keith. The document has been discarded and can't be claimed to be the official EU policy, and it never was. It can be casually adopted by anyone who wants it and who it suits. It ill-behoves them, of course, to do so without informing the readers that the document is no longer recognised, even as a work in progress, by the EU. It's out of the genie's lamp. But official EU stuff it is not. You see, Keith, when a thing like this happens it merely confirms to everyone else here that you can never be trusted to give us anything straight. It wouldn't be half so bad had it been the first time I've caught you out. Tsk, Keith. Tsk.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 May 16 - 11:38 AM

.. because no other party was 'victim' of a concerted intensive strategic attack of malicious accusations in the run up to the elections... 😫

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 May 16 - 11:24 AM


So now let's see similar examples of Tory and UKIP positive declarations of intent.....?????

No other party has had to confront "recent cases of anti-semitic abuse."
All parties, like Labour, claim to be anti-racist.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 May 16 - 11:20 AM

Steve,
There is no FRA or EU definition of antisemitism in force now, and there has never been anything like an official one sanctioned by the EU, any official EU body or by the member states.

Yes there is.
The EUMC working definition.
http://www.antisem.eu/projects/eumc-working-definition-of-antisemitism/

Pfr,
There are racist arseholes in all groups of people, every political party,

Yes there are, but this is "recent cases of anti-Semitic abuse" which has "appalled" the NEC.
That is what Steve has denied.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 May 16 - 11:19 AM

Keith - "The NEC are appalled by recent cases of anti-Semitic abuse. Anti-Semitism has no place in the Labour Party and is contrary to everything we stand for."
http://labourlist.org/2016/05/alice-perrys-nec-report-corbyn-fighting-prejudice-and-listening-to-voters-online/"

ok.. fair enough.. and so Corbyn should be this seriously 'proactive' for all sorts of reasons..

After all, Labour is at heart a 'progressive' party.

So now let's see similar examples of Tory and UKIP positive declarations of intent.....????? 🙄

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 May 16 - 11:10 AM

Pfr,

There are racist arseholes in all groups of people, every political party,

That is true, but we are talking about "recent cases of anti-seitic abuse" that has "appalled" the NEC.

Steve,
The EUMC document has never been adopted officially by EU states as an official EU document

Yes it has. It has been on the EU site for 11 years as the criteria for recognising anti-semitism. It still is!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 May 16 - 09:52 AM

Trouble is I'm so blinded by a lifetime's drinking the stuff I can barely see what I'm typing...

but that won't stop me focusing on antiscrumpsemenhatricks where ever they may hide in the Labour movement..

no matter how soft or squishy or runny that movement may be... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 May 16 - 09:33 AM

" antiscrumpyimetics"

Are you sure you don't mean antiscrumpyemetics? Drugs that stop you throwing up after drinking too much scrumpy? Gotta be so careful with spellings these days....

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 May 16 - 09:29 AM

They're even older than that, Jim, and they were never anything other than an unofficial work in progress, quietly got rid of in 2013, never, ever an official EU policy document. All over the internet it is, but Keith is sitting over his keyboard, red-faced and refusing to look. Of course a number of groups have pounced on them. What would you expect when they contain that suitably broadened definition that tries to stem criticism of Israel? But those groups do not include the EU, EU states or even the people who drew them up in the first place. EU states can't adopt a bunch of guidelines that are not EU policy, then claim to be following EU policy. They are defunct, deaded, released from their mortal coil, ceased to be, gone to join the choir invisible, had the final curtain rung down on them. They are ex-guidelines.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 May 16 - 09:28 AM

I am only too aware of Anti-Lancastrarianism in Yorkshire (and elsewhere). Having lived here in Yorkshire for 34 years I have been subject to almost constant daily abuse due to my Lancastrianism. It ought not to be allowed. I would approach my MP but the bastard is a Yorkshireman .............. and a conservative.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 May 16 - 09:23 AM

"Yes I did say Labour club.. Keith go get 'em...!!!!!"


Grrrrr.... bloody tiny Preview tick box..... 😠

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 May 16 - 09:19 AM

I've had enough... as a proud Scrumpyshire man I am sick of antiscrumpyimetic prejudice riddled throughout society;
and lack of representation of Scrumpyshire voices and faces on Tv and all other forms of media.

I am in the process of writing a directive defining antiscrumpyimeticism to my own criteria and satisfaction.

Now no one else in the world will be likely to ever know about it or read it,
but it doesn't matter because I do, and will be actively on the lookout for any antiscrumpyimetics contravening it.

You lot beware, anyone I catch out will be reported to Keith so he can take appropriate action chasing you all up.....

I'll alert him first to my Local Labour club which now refuses to stock and serve barrels of local rough farmhouse cider..

Yes I did say club.. Keith go get 'em...!!!!! 😈

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 May 16 - 09:07 AM

"and the only criteria for antisemitism are those produced by EUMC,"
Utter bloody nonsense
Antisemitism is one of the world's oldest form of prejudices.
The idea that we need a 9 year old set of rules to define it it is a trip to La-La Land.
Blame Jews as a people, for anything, as Israel has, is Antisemitic.
Your argument t appears to be that Israel should be the arbiters of Antisemitism - a bit difficult that, given the circumstances, especially as the increasingly right wing regime there is writing off all opponents to its policies - including Israeli Jews, as Antisemitic.
Israel is largely responsible for the rise of Antisemitism in the world today - haven't we just had a very close-run lucky escape in Austria (a serial and historical Jew-hating country)?
When will you people accept that it is arguments like yours that is putting the Jewish population at risk?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 May 16 - 09:01 AM

Lots of people have come up with criteria for antisemitism. Show me the place on the "EU wbsite" where the definition sits "unchallenged". The EUMC document has never been adopted officially by EU states as an official EU document because not only has it never been one but has now been rejected. These are the facts, Keith. Immutable. INCONTROVERTIBLE. You are making a complete idiot of yourself and you compound the error every single time you refuse to give in to reality. Are we surprised? I think not.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 May 16 - 08:46 AM

.. and if you are further insisting on narrowing racism down to only spotlighting antisemitism within the Labour Party...?????? 🙄

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 May 16 - 08:35 AM

Keith - .. and yet again we have to remind you that no one on this thread has denied there may be racists in the Labour party.

There are racist arseholes in all groups of people, every political party, every folk club, every pub and bingo hall up and down the nation..


Line up 100 random people and the chances are you will find a few racists.

Though how many are full on raging bone head white supremacists, or just ordinary folk who occasionally just unintentionally use the wrong words
because they are unaware of the current fads in elitist academic think tank definition dictates...

who's to judge.... You...???


Same goes if you insist on narrowing racism down to just spotlighting antisemitism...... 😣

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 May 16 - 07:39 AM

The EUMC is still active, and the only criteria for antisemitism are those produced by EUMC, and they are current on the EU website unchallenged.
They are adopted by all EU states. That is the point of them.

Returning to your denial of anti-semitism within Labour, please note that it is not me, or the right wing press, or the Israel lobby that is "appalled by recent cases of anti-Semitic abuse."

It is Labour's own National Executive Committee.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 May 16 - 07:14 AM

The EUMC was superseded by the FRA years ago and the remit was not the same. Google, Keith, Google.

You claimed that all 28 states endorsed the working definition. An outrageous claim that you can't confirm. Now you're trying to get me to prove a negative. Why don't you tell me that a ten-legged green man made out of jelly appeared at your bedside last night, then ask me to prove he didn't? You've made a complete clot of yourself over this and you're still wriggling. Now you're trying to cover up by resorting to accusing me of going off-topic, which you yourself have been doing with abandon. There is no FRA or EU definition of antisemitism in force now, and there has never been anything like an official one sanctioned by the EU, any official EU body or by the member states.

You've been caught out. But feel free to carry on acting the clown. It could be quite entertaining to those of a certain masochistc mindset.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 May 16 - 03:36 AM

Steve,
1. The EUMC has not existed for the last nine years.

Not true Steve. It is still active.
See here some of its current projects.
http://www.antisem.eu/projects/

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 May 16 - 03:16 AM

They were never more than a work in progress, never adopted by the EU, never ratified by any EU state,

They were.
Show me anything from the EU that says they were not and are not.

Meanwhile, this thread is about problems within Labour.

"Alice Perry's NEC report: Corbyn, fighting prejudice and listening to voters online
23RD MAY, 2016 3:22 PM"

"The NEC are appalled by recent cases of anti-Semitic abuse. Anti-Semitism has no place in the Labour Party and is contrary to everything we stand for."
http://labourlist.org/2016/05/alice-perrys-nec-report-corbyn-fighting-prejudice-and-listening-to-voters-online/

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 May 16 - 03:14 PM

". or we could just forget about any disputed long winded obscure defining guidelines
and simply rely on our own experience, knowledge, and reasoning"
Seems fair enough to me as Israel has more-or-less hijacked the definition and those who go along with them - - well, go along with them, as can be seen here.
those defending Israel
Israel has moved so far to the right that even senior ministers and Generals are becoming alarmed at what's happened.
I would hesitate to compare what is happening now, but as Israel has made all definitions unusable - why not?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 May 16 - 11:51 AM

It isn't even disputed, pfr. Except by Keith. As the yanks would say, go figure. 😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 May 16 - 11:49 AM

For Christ's sake, Keith, they were never "in force" in the first place. There is no "no longer" about it. They were never more than a work in progress, never adopted by the EU, never ratified by any EU state, adopted only by groups who wanted to suppress criticism of Israel. This is all over the internet and you can google as well as I can. You are making a complete fool of yourself by clinging on to this, and you know it, trying to cover up for your ineptitude typified by your flogging this very dead horse. As for groups adopting it, well you can adopt anything you like, but that does not make the document any more official. All that does is say that here we are, this piece of paper reflects our opinion. Trying to give yourself a bit more credence by falsely claiming that you're adhering to an official EU document is just downright dishonest. Not an attribute that seems to trouble you much, evidently.

From wiki.

In 2005, the EUMC published a working definition of antisemitism, whose stated purpose was to "provide a guide for identifying incidents, collecting data and supporting the implementation and enforcement of legislation dealing with antisemitism." In November 2013 the definition was removed from the organisation's website in 'a clear-out of non-official documents'. A spokesperson stated that the document had never been viewed as a valid definition and that "We are not aware of any official definition".

The spokesperson was from the FRA, the EU body that superseded the EUMC nine years ago. Read and learn, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 May 16 - 11:37 AM

.. or we could just forget about any disputed long winded obscure defining guidelines
and simply rely on our own experience, knowledge, and reasoning
to judge what is acceptable language and behaviour in most everyday social communications and interactions...

After all, I thought conservative right wingers were very fond of a common sense approach
rather than doctrinaire ideological EU dictates.....????? 🙄

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 May 16 - 11:25 AM

Because of concerns that certain statements therein could be construed as attempts to stifle legitimate criticism of Israel, that's why.

So not relevant to Richard's breach of the criteria.

Three years ago there was a flurry of uncorroborated reports that the criteria were being dropped.
Today there is no evidence that it ever happened.
if you search for EU antisemetism criteria, you are directed to the original EUMC criteria on an EU page.
There is nothing on any EU page to suggest that they are no longer in force, and as you have been shown, they have been adopted by numerous organisations and states beyond the EU.

If they are no longer recognised, please direct us to an EU body that says so.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 May 16 - 07:32 AM

I note also that the London Declaration and the Ottawa Protocol both endorse this document that its own originators have now dismissed out of hand:

2010 London Declaration:

"Governments must expand the use of the EUMC 'Working Definition of antisemitism' to inform policy of national and international organisations and as a basis for training material for use by Criminal Justice Agencies"

Ottawa Protocol (among other references):

"Universities should use the EUMC Working Definition of Antisemitism as a basis for education, training and orientation."

Well I wonder whether either of these organisations has reconvened in the light of the abandoning of the document they wanted to lean on so heavily. Actually, had I been of suspicious mind I could even have detected sinister undertones in those two quotes.

Do you know why the document is no longer accepted, Keith? Because of concerns that certain statements therein could be construed as attempts to stifle legitimate criticism of Israel, that's why. And that's why, contrary to your claim, it is not universally accepted. There is much good stuff in there but the baby had to be thrown out with the bathwater, which had an unpleasant stench about it.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 May 16 - 06:17 AM

1. The EUMC has not existed for the last nine years. It was superseded by the FRA.

2. The document on antisemitism was NEVER endorsed by the EU.

3. The document was NEVER recommended for endorsement to member states.

4. It is UNTRUE to state, as you did, that all 28 member states endorsed the document. They did not.

5. The document is defunct. It was set aside, OFFICIALLY, in 2013.

6. If the FRA say they have not adopted it, they have not adopted it. It does not become "adopted" just because they haven't adopted an alternative.

7. Are you really trying to tell us that this set of criteria that are "in use" (which they are not, even though certain organisations may have latched on to them) are the only definition around of antisemitism? Why, you'd think that no-one down the millennia had ever brought up the matter and tried to define it. The truth of the matter is, Keith, that the definition of antisemitism is in dispute and always has been. Pro-Israel factions do not get to have the final say. They are entitled to their input just the same as any other interested parties, including people who may wish to legitimately criticise the Israeli regime. And it is not antisemitic to say that.

The thing is, Keith, you've been dribbling out this false information to us for days, taking us for fools. Not only that, you've used an officially defunct document to brand Richard Bridge antisemitic. You've been caught out once again. Busted, can't be trusted.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 May 16 - 04:20 AM

The criteria are still on the EUMC website.
FRA may say they have not adopted it, but they have produced no alternative definitions.

The EUMC criteria are the only ones in use and if you read my earlier post, and Bobad's, you will see that acceptance of them is universal.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 May 16 - 03:51 AM

YISRAEL BEITEINU
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 May 16 - 03:46 AM

The plot appears to be thickening back at the ranch, where the Israeli leadership appears to be turning in on itself - first a senior Army officer, now a leading Minister - all "self-hating Jews", presumably.
Jim Carroll

ISRAELI MINISTER WARNS OF INSIDE 'EXTREMISTS'
Respected moderate Ya'alon quits Likud party after Netanyahu plan to replace him
Mark Weiss   in Jerusalem .

A day after being informed he will be replaced as defence minister, Moshe Ya'alon has resigned and quit the Knesset parliament, warning that Israel has been taken over by "dangerous and extremist elements".
Widely respected as a con¬scientious and responsible minister and a moderate in prime minister Binyamin Netanyahu's ruling Likud party, Mr Ya'alon was informed he was being replaced by Avigdor Lieberman, under a deal to bring Mr Lieberman's Yisrael Beiteinu party into power.
; Speaking yesterday, Mr Ya'alon announced he was taking a time-out from politics because he had lost faith in Mr Netanyahu, but plans to return to public life in the future.
"Unfortunately, both Israel and Likud have been taken over by dangerous extremists, undercutting our home and threatening those in it.

'Depths of the crisis'
"This is not the Likud party I joined, and the vast majority of Likud voters - the sane and responsible public - would be wise to understand the depths of the crisis and the violent spirit that has overtaken the Govement;"
He noted that he worked harmoniously with Mr Netanahu for a long time, including during the Gaza war.
"But to my great regret, I have found myself lately in deep disagreement over professional and ethical issues with the prime minister. I have fought with all my strength against radicalisation, violence and racism in Israeli society, which percolates also into the Israel Defence Forces."
Mr Ya'alon recently angered Mr Netanyahu when he called for a soldier who shot and killed a wounded Palestinian man after an alleged stabbing incident to be brought to justice and when he defended a senior general who compared recent trends in Israel to pre-war Germany.
Mr Netanyahu expressed regret that Mr Ya'alon turned down his offer to become foreign minister.
"The change in portfolios did not stem from a crisis of faith between us, it stemmed from the need to expand the coalition in order to bring stability to Israel," he said, rejecting the allegation that Likud had been taken over by extremists.
"The Likud believes in democracy. The Likud is a liberal nationalist movement that is obligated to preserving Israel as Jewish and democratic state and represents the main strain of thought among the people."
Mr Ya'alon will be replaced in the Knesset by American-born Yehuda Glick. Mr Glick narrowly survived an assassination attempt in 2014 after being shot and seriously wounded by a Palestinian gunman.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 May 16 - 10:12 PM

That article was recent, by the way. April, I think.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 May 16 - 10:09 PM

From the openDemocracy website, the article Shifty Antisemitism Wars.

In 2005, a draft, working definition of antisemitism was circulated by the European Union's Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (EUMC). To the dismay of its critics, the document confused genuine antisemitism with criticism of Israel, and was repeatedly, and erroneously, promoted by Israel advocacy groups as the EU definition of antisemitism.

By 2013, the EUMC's successor body, the European Union Agency for Fundamental Rights (FRA), had abandoned the politicised definition as unfit for purpose. Just this week, in response to a motion passed at NUS conference, the FRA explicitly denied having ever adopted the definition.

Erroneously, Keith. Get it? This document that you keep pushing down our throats was never ratified by the EU, never ratified by the 28 member states, as you claimed, and was officially shelved in 2013. The document you've relied on has no force in the EU, contrary to what you claim. Dismissed by the EU, but used by you to brand Richard antisemitic. Keith, you knew all this, therefore it seems that you have been lying to us. Your lengthier than usual post above was a dead giveaway, a desperate scrabble. Your central point that this document has any credibility in the EU has come crashing around your ears. Don't try to obfuscate, Keith. I can be devastatingly direct when confronting dishonesty when I want to be.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 May 16 - 04:01 PM

The document has not been officially adopted by the EU and has not been endorsed by the 28 member states. In fact, it was shelved, officially, in 2013. You are trying to mislead the people on this forum about the status of this document.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 May 16 - 11:44 AM

Steve,
" It's flawed, in my opinion, "

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 May 16 - 11:43 AM

Keith - yes.. I am aware you did acknowledge the difference, and that was a positive signal from you..

But it just seems to me, that since then you had either forgotten you said it, or were carrying on as if you hadn't...???

This thread of yours has inspired me to start googling around this issue,
and I am very encouraged to find many links supporting and confirming the suspicions I had arrived at
regarding a strategic ambush on the Labour party so soon to an election.

Many links, from so many disparate sources....

Also links highlighting disagreement and division between opposed factions within the worldwide jewish community..

I might have some jewish blood and an affinity for jewish and Israeli music and movies, but I am not a jew.
I don't know if you or bobad are or not..

But if we were, I guess I'd be in a more liberal and concilatory faction from the both of you.....????? 🤔

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 May 16 - 11:36 AM

Please demonstrate that it is a valid piece of evidence to support your case. Show me that it has, as you say, been agreed and endorsed by the member nations.

the most widely used definition of contemporary antisemitism is the Working Definition produced in 2005 by the European Union Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (EUMC), an EU body which monitors racism and antisemitism in EU Member States (the EUMC has since been succeeded by the European Union Agency for Fundamental Rights (FRA)).

In 2005, the EU Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (EUMC), now the EU Agency for Fundamental Rights (FRA), adopted a "working definition on antisemitism" which is now the standard definition used around the world, from the European Parliament, to the UK College of Policing, to the US Department of State.

The (US)State Department report on Global Antisemitism in 2008 included the following: The EUMC's working definition provides a useful framework for identifying and understanding the problem and is adopted for the purposes of this report
The Working Definition of Antisemitism was cited by the US State Department's Special Envoy to Monitor and Combat Anti-Semitism in testimony given to the Commission on Security and Cooperation in Europe (in Helsinki) in 2011, and is currently endorsed on the State Department's 'Monitoring and Combating Antisemitism' page.
The Working Definition of Antisemitism was endorsed by the London Declaration of the Inter Parliamentary Coalition for Combating Antisemitism in 2009.
In 2010, the UK All-Party Inquiry into antisemitism recommended that the Working Definition of Antisemitism should be adopted and promoted by the Government and law enforcement agencies.
The UK National Union of Students renewed their support for the Working Definition of Antisemitism in 2013.
An official document published by the OSCE's Office for Democratic Institutions and Human Rights (ODIHR) recommends the Working Definition of Antisemitism as a valuable hate crime data collection tool for law enforcement agencies, and for educators.
The OSCE (Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe )Parliamentary Assembly has formally recognized the Working Definition of Antisemitism.
The professional body in the UK for policing now includes the definition in their Hate Crime Operational Guidance (2014).

See also Bobad's report "
The Ottawa Protocol, comprised of 250 parliamentarians from 46 countries reaffirmed the EUMC working definition of Antisemitism at a conference in Ottawa in November, 2010."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 21 May 16 - 10:57 AM

In a word, classical or traditional anti-Semitism is the discrimination against, denial of, or assault upon, the rights of Jews to live as equal members of whatever society they inhabit. The new anti-Semitism involves the discrimination against, denial of, or assault upon, the right of the Jewish people to live as an equal member of the family of nations, or their right to even live, with Israel emerging as the targeted collective Jew among the nations

Irwin Cotler



Compared to most previous anti-Jewish outbreaks, this [new anti-Semitism] is often less directed against individual Jews. It attacks primarily the collective Jews, the State of Israel. And then such attacks start a chain reaction of assaults on individual Jews and Jewish institutions…In the past, the most dangerous anti-Semites were those who wanted to make the world Judenrein, 'free of Jews.' Today, the most dangerous anti-Semites might be those who want to make the world Judenstaatrein, 'free of a Jewish state.

Per Ahlmark, former deputy prime minister of Sweden



Oh, Canada indeed

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 May 16 - 10:45 AM

Pfr,
Keith - You are not listening to us in that there are degrees of antisemitism - say a scale from 0 - 100 -

I did listen and I agree and said so.
I did not attack Richard except to say,

"Richard, I am sure you deny your antisemitism even to yourself, but it was revealed in your post where you accused the EUMC board members, mostly Jewish, of having a "vested interest" in widening the definition of antisemitism to gain more "influence." "

The subject was then dropped for two weeks until Steve decided to make an issue of it.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 May 16 - 10:23 AM

"turn"... ??? "turd".. see what I mean.....



bobad - oh.. Canada.. ok..

Ten signs you might be getting slandered by accusations of anti-Semitism

Scott Weinstein - steering committee member for Independent Jewish Voices Canada

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 May 16 - 09:52 AM

I tried on and off for four hours to get that post to take.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 May 16 - 09:42 AM

As far as I can discern, the document to which you persistently refer was never an official EU document and was set aside three years ago. Please demonstrate that it is a valid piece of evidence to support your case. Show me that it has, as you say, been agreed and endorsed by the member nations. I can't find this anywhere. In addition, I've read it through. There are parts of it with which I disagree, so I'm glad it was set aside. It's flawed, in my opinion, containing statements that would serve to restrict legitimate criticism of Israeli actions.

I don't usually worry about spellings on forums, but as this is one of your pet subjects I suggest that you spell "antisemitic" correctly in future.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 May 16 - 09:10 AM

Keith - You are not listening to us in that there are degrees of antisemitism - say a scale from 0 - 100 -
and the 'crime' you accuse Richard of is at the very lowest end of the scale as far as any sensible reasonable person would consider it....

Once you accuse any folk of unintentional / unaware antisemitism and use exactly the same word to describe it
as we might to call out white supremesist neo n@zis thugs who absolutely hate all jews and 'half & quarter' jews
you are guilty of unintelligent inconsiderate name calling verging on slander.

You can also be seen as a rather silly hysterically over reacting person out of touch with the real world
'crying wolf' at the slightest imagination of antisemitic language or behaviour...

It doen't matter what abstract definition you resort to, in the real world you can make yourself look a real plonker !!!

.. and if you are not careful, a malicious one at that...............



THINK for a minute or 2 about this..
How would you like it if you were out for a quiet pleasant drink
and the pub bully [some local petty official] suddenly yelled out in front of every body
making a big fuss calling you a paedo !!!
You are completely innocent, but he has a grudge against you and deliberately followed you around town
until he could get a phone cam photo of you walking past a group of school kids at a bus stop...

That's kind of like what pro Israeli Regime extremists are constantly trying to do to their opposition,
and more than definitely what lies behind the recent wave of attacks on Corbyn and the Labour party...



Now keith, whatever your intention for opening this thread, I personally have found it very interesting
and a stimulation for parts of my mind and knowledge that have been dormant and gone rusty for far too long;
due to all the shit life can through at a bloke to distract him from serious thinking - so sincere thank you......


However tech problems have rendered this thread so slow to respond and open
that it is becoming near impossible to follow and contribute.

Dont know if it's mudat or my Chrome install...???????

But I'll persevere for the time being...............


[not spell checked or previewed - because mudcat is as slow as a constipated turn these days..]

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 21 May 16 - 08:22 AM

The Ottawa Protocol, comprised of 250 parliamentarians from 46 countries reaffirmed the EUMC working definition of Antisemitism at a conference in Ottawa in November, 2010.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 May 16 - 04:29 AM

That's what you don't understand, Keith.

The EUMC board were describing anti-semetism, not Israel.
The criteria they agreed, endorsed by all the nations of the EU, show the views expressed by Richard to be anti-semetic.

You think you know better.
I don't.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 May 16 - 04:33 PM

The vested interest is preventing valid criticism of Israel. The influence means influencing people to attack critics of Israel by being able to call them antisemitic. All to do with politics, nothing to do with ethnicity. That's what you don't understand, Keith. That antisemitism is attacking Jews BECAUSE THEY ARE JEWS, not attacking them because of their politics or public statements or behaviour. You may never see it, you being you, but at the very least you should refrain from calling people antisemitic when all they are doing is criticising the politics, policies, statements or behaviour of people who may be Jews. Or not. Even you admit that the committee was "mostly" Jews. Yes, I did notice that.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 May 16 - 03:35 PM

Richard said,
"Have a look, Keith, at the composition of the advisory board of the panel that adopted the obviously and irrationally over-expansive definition of antisemitism that you like. All have a vested interest in an over-broad definition."

His exact words.
The composition of the board was provided by him in a link.
Mostly Jews.

Note his description of the criteria accepted by the EU!
What "vested interest" did they have?

He then said,"And the vested interest of the members of that board is that the the wider the definition of antisemitism, the more influence they can gain."

More influence?
What influence?

The accusation of antisemitism within Labour have all come from within Labour.
The media is just the messenger.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 May 16 - 11:43 AM

Amen to all that, too! 🙂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 May 16 - 11:16 AM

I've mentioned this before on a previous mudcat thread..

my old mum is as sweet loving caring a person as you could ever hope to meet.. not a nasty bone in her body.

She is innately highly intelligent, but never had much formal education due to wartime evacuation, leaving school to care for older family members,
and a life time of menial cleaning and unqualified care worker jobs.

Her Dad, who deserted her at an early age, was a fairly well off Jewish man, probably too afraid of his family and culture
to marry the pretty poor gentile girl he got pregnant..

[who knows the real history.. cue Mills and Boon version..]

Anyway, my mum is not resentful.. she's quite proud of being half jewish [even if by some technical formulations she might not be...???]

But I cringe at the thought of any 'real' jews overhearing her talking out in public...

For example, one of her favourites at shop checkout counters...

"Oh I love a good bargain, it must be the jew in me.."

Stooping to pick up any coins she sees on the pavement "It's in my blood, it's the jew in me"

She sincerely believes these stereotype myths, not with any prejudice, but with pride.

Who am I to tut tut and try to ideologically re-educate her..???

or even explain 'real' proper jews might definitely not value her as one of their own.


Real life can be far too complex for 'weaponised' artificial technical academic definitions... 😣

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 May 16 - 10:50 AM

Amen to all of that, Steve. Absolutely correct, as always.

And, of course, when your mother was in her formative years, and when I was in mine for that matter, 'coloured' and 'negro' were in general use as the polite terms of reference for people who were dark-skinned, usually of African or Afro-Caribbean origins. 'Black' was, in those days, generally regarded as being as insulting as 'n****r'.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 May 16 - 10:33 AM

"Anti" means against, opposing. If you are antisemitic you are against Jews because they are Jews. You can't be accidentally opposed to Jews. It's a conscious decision. Yes you can make remarks that sound antisemitic if you're not careful, just like you can make sexist remarks even though you're not wanting to be consciously sexist. It's a hard grind is watching your every word. In my Catholic schoolyard days disparaging language regarding Jews was rife. If I wouldn't give you a sweet I was called a Jew for being tight. If I'd cheated you out of something, I was accused of jewing you. The Catholics who ran the place never corrected us, to their profound discredit. It takes years to readjust your mindset away from stuff like that. My mum is one of the most anti-racist people I know and always has been, but she still talks about "the coloureds." Arguing for a bit more political correctness is fine. Setting draconian linguistic traps for people, just because you want to protect Israel from perfectly valid criticism, is diabolically wicked. If the cap fits, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 May 16 - 10:18 AM

"Groupings of Jews Steve?
The groups accused by Richard were not "Zionists," just Jews"

Some may be groupings of Jews, Some may be a mixture of Jews and non-Jews. Some may be groups of Israel supporters of no particular ethnicity. Some may be all Jews but who don't agree among themselves (lots of Jews do not support the Israeli regime's actions apropos of Palestinians, for example). It is what they say and do and advocate that is the issue, Keith. Suppose I said to you that YOU are calling Israel a grouping of Jews. After all, you defend to the hilt the fact that Israel calls itself a Jewish state. A grouping of Jews if ever I saw one, a rather large grouping at that. Let's suppose a grouping of Jews, who made no secret of the fact that they are Jews, advocated a particular policy. I then said to you that that grouping of Jews are advocating...whatever it is. I might want to put it that way if the grouping were, say, acting in an overtly pro-Israel manner. It would be slightly ludicrous to lose courage and say "that grouping of people" instead of "Jews," for fear of being branded antisemitic by the likes of you and your disreputable friend. If the group were advocating planting a bed of pink geraniums instead of red ones in the local park, and I gratuitously called them Jews, you would doubt my motives, rightly so. Being Jewish has nothing to do with the colour of geraniums. It might have something to do with policy regarding Israel. In the post above you are trying to put words in my mouth, like you did with Richard, like you did with Geoffrey Wheatcroft. Well that doesn't work with me. I'm far too straightforward for that. You wanted me to say groupings of Jews so that you can call me antisemitic. Well I could say to you that you're calling Israel a grouping of Jews, so you're antisemitic. But you didn't actually say those words, did you, and I'm not going to make that unjustified extrapolation. The same one YOU'VE made with Richard and Wheatcroft, and that you're trying on me. Tough. Find someone else to practise your inane trickery on.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 May 16 - 10:16 AM


.. so basically then.. any good decent anti racist folk can accidently fall into a trap of being unintentionally antisemitic;

No. They can be antisemitic without seeing it.

and as a consequence be torn to shreds and publicly pilloried by any harsh unforgiving hostile activists & lobbyists predetermined to find opponents to discredit ..

I have not done that.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 May 16 - 09:54 AM

.. so basically then.. any good decent anti racist folk can accidently fall into a trap of being unintentionally antisemitic;
and as a consequence be torn to shreds and publicly pilloried by any harsh unforgiving hostile activists & lobbyists predetermined to find opponents to discredit ..

.. just because of changes to arcane definitions dictated by specialist elite bodies of academics and bureaucrats that most folk have never heard of...

.. unfair old world.. innit...!!!??? 😣

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 May 16 - 09:46 AM

The issue is whether the criteria are being manipulated. In my mind, they are, wholesale, by groupings the world over.

Groupings of Jews Steve?
The groups accused by Richard were not "Zionists," just Jews.

You are entitled to your own view of what constitutes antisemitism, and I am entitled to point out that the universally accepted view is different.

By the criteria accepted by all the nations of the EU, Richard's statement about Jewish groups was anti-semitic.

You are entitled to believe that you know better, and I am entitled to disagree with you.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 May 16 - 06:16 AM

The issue is whether the criteria are being manipulated. In my mind, they are, wholesale, by groupings the world over. In fact, it would be totally naive to deny that. It is the reason we're haggling over what antisemitism really is. Why you think the two Labour politicians in the firing line are antisemitic, when patently they are not. The real, core definition is deadly simple: antisemitism is attacking Jews BECAUSE THEY ARE JEWS. Not because they live in Israel or north Manchester. Not because of their political views. Not because of their religion. Not because they sometimes group together to form lobbies. Not because some of them hate Arabs. Not because the Israeli regime represses Palestinians. I want justice for Palestinians and for the Arab citizens of Israel. That is not remotely antisemitic. I don't think a state that is less than three-quarters Jewish should be calling itself a Jewish state. It is not antisemitic to say that: it is a considered opinion for which I've given my reasons. Not because some Jews are rich. Of course, some unjustified prejudices can be rolled together into an antisemitic whole: "Look at that typical Jew, rolling in money because he's so mean with it." It is NOT antisemitic to say that AIPAC consists largely of Jews who are pursuing a pro-Israel agenda. It happens to be a fact. Of course, like any fact it can be used tendentiously. Let's keep our antennae tuned for that, the honest thing to do. It's not even antisemitic to say that AIPAC enjoys undue and undemocratic influence over politicians in a supposedly democratic country (and I do say the same about the gun lobby and multinational corporations. I suppose bobad will be here any minute to tell us that I only mean the ones controlled by Jews). If you think that Richard made a factually incorrect statement, challenge it and correct it if you can and hold the slurs. Do not put words into his mouth as you did with Geoffrey Wheatcroft, and as you're doing with Richard in this instance, just to suit your own agenda, which is to use every means at your disposal, both honest and dishonest, to suppress any criticism of Israel. If you think that anything that I've said is OK is actually antisemitic, as opposed to factually incorrect, then you've fallen, possibly willingly in your case, into the trap of believing that widened definition.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 May 16 - 04:36 AM

It is not an unjustified accusation that, by the criteria agreed by the EU, 28 democratic nations, that Richards statement was antisemitic.

You are entitled to your belief that you know better.

Do you endorse Richard's statement Steve?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 May 16 - 04:29 AM

Well think for yourself for a change and desist from throwing unjustified accusations around. The EU also specifies the size of duck eggs, the maximum curvature of cucumbers, and gives farmers money for growing weeds.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 May 16 - 04:19 AM

The board was mostly composed of Jewish groups, which Richard identified.
It makes no sense to suggest that the single non-Jewish group might have a vested interest in manipulating the criteria of anti-semitism to increase its influence.

Pfr, I acknowledge that this is not blatant anti-semitism which does exist.
I acknowledged that Richard did not recognise it as anti-semitic. Steve does not either.
It is a matter of opinion, but by EU criteria it is anti-semitic.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 May 16 - 01:55 PM

Richard did not say " the Jews on the board." That is a bare-faced lie. Completely disgraceful, and defamatory to boot.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 May 16 - 01:32 PM

Keith - please keep it in perspective..


if you want to see real antisemitism on an internet board..
go take a peek at "What do u think of half-jews, quarter-jews etc?"

One of the top of the list links provided by google when I recently searched for up to date info on my status/identity as a quarter jew by bloodline... 😒

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 May 16 - 01:21 PM

EUMC on anti-semitism,
"Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective — such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 May 16 - 01:20 PM

Bob = 😇 ... yeah... as innocent as a cat that did a shit on top of your bedroom wardrobe and tried to blame the short legged dog in the kitchen downstairs.... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 May 16 - 01:19 PM

There has been no antisemitism posted whatsoever. If you disagree, then you clearly haven't a clue what antisemitism is.

We disagree on that.
Richard claimed that the Jews on the board had a "vested interest" in gaining more "influence" for themselves.

That is anti-semitic, however much you deny it.
Richard has not tried to defend it.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 May 16 - 12:36 PM

You're guilty all right, of calling reasonable people Jew-haters, of misrepresentation, of arch bigotry, of cowardice, of sniping from behind the wall and of posting under multiple identities. Apart from that, you're a real little innocent, aren't you. Sweetness and light personified.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 19 May 16 - 12:28 PM

Troll:

Make a deliberately offensive or provocative online posting with the aim of upsetting someone or eliciting an angry response from them.


If asking someone to back their claims with evidence is trolling then I plead guilty.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 May 16 - 11:45 AM

You called Richard antisemitic. That is a very bad thing to call someone. It is a personal attack even if it's true. It is name-calling. It means the same as Jew-hater. When it isn't true, which it isn't, it's a hundred times worse. I've scoured this thread end to end. There has been no antisemitism posted whatsoever. If you disagree, then you clearly haven't a clue what antisemitism is. Feel free to dredge up alleged examples from this thread and I'll cheerfully take them to pieces for you. No worries. You had no right to call Richard that, now here you are sanctimoniously lamenting the fact that we don't especially care to engage with "issues" raised by the biggest confounded bigot on this forum, a forum cheat to boot, with whom you have shown yourself to be in bed. Go on, I dare you. Read all of his posts in this thread. Then come back and tell us all what a fine, upstanding man he is.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jeri
Date: 19 May 16 - 11:43 AM

The tactic is often called "trolling".

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 May 16 - 11:25 AM

.. ditto.. your calls for 'evidence'...

again, a deflecting and distracting tactic.... !!!!!

Why should your opponents bother wasting their time and debating focus.. you are already more than aware of the evidence yourself...

That is, if I am correct in crediting you with some political intelligence and awareness.....???????? 🙄

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 19 May 16 - 10:51 AM

Would you care to identify these pro Israeli Government regime supporters, who are acting to silence criticism of Israel, Mr.Punk?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 May 16 - 10:51 AM

Bob - .. and 'deflecting'.. that's another of your 'sneaky' tactics.....

Attempting to dictate the terms of engagement so that your opponent is momentarily defused
by having to waste breath and energy defensively refuting your slanderous accusations of antisemitism,
rather than pursuing their valid line of arguments against your pernicious invective..... 😣

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 May 16 - 10:34 AM

I wish what I say was just a fanciful entertaining 'conspiracy theory'...

Very sadly, it's all too grounded in reality and truth....

As well you know.... 😠


You really are revealing yourself to be a nasty piece of work..

Off you go again.. as expected..

.. manipulate and distort, cynically misconstrue, and discredit anyone who stands up to you.. that's all it 'seems' you are capable of...

"wrong-foot
(verb) to wrong-foot someone means to manipulate the situation to make an innocent person look bad, guilty. or inept.
Often used by sly people to deflect the blame they deserve onto someone else"

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 May 16 - 10:29 AM

So Steve, I was responding to an actual point made by Richard in an actual post.

I did not attack him for perceived personal failings, as you do.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 May 16 - 10:27 AM

Steve,
By the way, you called Richard an antisemite on May 8. Which he is patently not.

He did make an anti-semetic statement.
I said this about it.

Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 08 May 16 - 02:01 AM

Richard, I am sure you deny your antisemitism even to yourself, but it was revealed in your post where you accused the EUMC board members, mostly Jewish, of having a "vested interest" in widening the definition of antisemitism to gain more "influence."

Livingstone and others also deny their antisemitism, but there it is.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 19 May 16 - 10:03 AM

So Punkie, still no evidence for your conspiracy theory. Now you're playing the anti Muslim card. This is getting better every day. Looking forward to the next installment.

I said "pro Israeli Government regime supporters" - I did not ever say "Jews"

Sure Punkster, just like these guys:

Rik Little If I can I stay away from preloaded titles like Jew. It wastes too much time arguing with idiots. I say Zionists or AIPAC worshipers.
13 hrs

David Blomstrom The problem is that "Zionist" doesn't include Jewish bankers, the Jews who control the media, etc. A better term is actually "Jewish Mafia," but I still often use "Jews" simply because the Jewish Mafia is so big.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 May 16 - 09:51 AM

"Steve, whatever you may think of contributors, just respond to the issues they raise.
Attacking them as people is against the rules, so why do you keep doing it?

Why not just challenge what they post, and make your own case?
What is the problem?
You do have a case?"

Oh yes, I have a case all right, and it's writ large all through this thread. Bobad/anonymous Guest does not "raise issues." He snipes, attacks and name-calls. You are not brave or honest enough to to do as I suggested this morning, trawl through all his posts in this thread. And if attacking worries you so much, where were you in those threads in which he anonymously called perfectly fair-minded and reasonable people "Jew haters?" You were never far away, Keith. It's about time you made an honest man of yourself. You could start by reminding yourself of Pastor Niemoller's famous quote. By the way, you called Richard an antisemite on May 8. Which he is patently not. Thst was a personal attack and a name-call. And a lie. What have you to say for yourself, Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 May 16 - 09:18 AM

Cheers keith.. always reassuring to know folks are are real human beings behind the mudcat nom de plumes and often theatrical constructed personas... 😎


Bob - that's Mr Punk if you don't mind... though 'Pfr' is always ok...

I've just missed a train to visit my mum to sort her meds out, so have a few spare minutes...

I think I can guess at the point you are struggling to infer....???

What I said in your 'quote' is reasonably well considered and clearly meant. It still stands...

Make note and remember.. I said "pro Israeli Government regime supporters" - I did not ever say "Jews".

I since discovered the individual professional political blogger
who unearthed the Naz Shah quote and set the ball rolling...

He is a desperate mercenary attention seeking tosser who does this on an industrial scale to benefit his own personal bank balance.

Right wing media depends on this kind of freelance 'researcher' to create stories for them.

This story was an ideal opportunity to set up a hostile anti labour attack in time for the elections.

All and sundry with a grudge against Corbyn in particular, and Labour in general, could jump on board make a hasty opportunistic meal of it.

.. including pro Israeli Government regime supporters, and anyone else more than happy to attack Labour
at a time when the party is attracting a massive new sign up of grass roots members..

many of these new members being muslims...

Draw your own conclusions....

well Bob, you already have anyway.. even before I started writing this post... ????

so you have a good head start..... 🙄

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 19 May 16 - 08:37 AM

only to have to put up with you and Bobad ignoring what we have previously written and repeating the same things over and over again.

Kind of like this eh Punk:

I would point to the above quote from pro Israeli academic / activist"David Hirsh" posted by bobad,
which serves very adequately to reinforce my 'suspicion' that a network of bloggers and well funded 'think tanks/research groups'
are constantly monitoring and cataloguing every social media post by problematic individuals they regard to be anti israeli...


Someone, somewhere needed to dig up those old social media statements by 'the MP' Naz Shah and bring them to high profile media attention
so close in the run up to elections.....


I have more than made clear my informed suspicion that any Labour party 'problem' with antisemitism
has been fabricated by 'agencies' outside of the party,
who have lobbed truck loads of mud with the desperate intent that some sticks...


this current crisis is a storm, manufactured by pro Israeli Government regime supporters, to silence criticism of Israel and to benefit the Tories.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 May 16 - 07:14 AM

Real life comes first Pfr.
Good luck with your trials.

Steve, whatever you may think of contributors, just respond to the issues they raise.
Attacking them as people is against the rules, so why do you keep doing it?

Why not just challenge what they post, and make your own case?
What is the problem?
You do have a case?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 May 16 - 07:01 AM

"Pfr,
What's happened in the last couple of weeks is a clear attempt by right wing media, tories, Israeli regime supporters,

There is no conspiracy. It all came from within Labour.
No one outside Labour sees Corbyn as a threat."

Keith - Think what you want to think... it's your thread after all...

Mudcat tech problems are making following this thread to much of a chore.
It takes far too long waiting for the thread to open and stabilise,
only to have to put up with you and Bobad ignoring what we have previously written
and repeating the same things over and over again.

I have enough of that in the real world since my mother was diagnosed with dementia.

The same conversation several times a day because nothing I need to say or explain sinks in...
day after day after day,.. it's mentally exhausting....... 😩

Your dogmatic denials and accusations regarding the Labour party are becoming the equivalent
of my mother constantly asking where her bus pass is, and what day is it today....

Sorry, if you take that as an insult, or me resorting to personal abuse.. but there you go... I'm exhausted...

I tries to remain patient staying on topic and addressing the thread topic issues.
But you refuse to listen and understand.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 May 16 - 06:01 AM

"Likewise all your accusations against Bobad.
Why do you do it."

Absolutely typical piece of denial by Keith. Puts him firmly on the side of the bigots and racists. Do some work, Keith. Go through every one of his posts in this thread. Then come back and still tell me there's no case. Do you condone the secret use of multiple identities, Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 May 16 - 03:56 AM

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/baroness-royall-oxford-university-labour-club-anti-semitism-jeremy-corbyn-anti-zionism_uk_
Updated yesterday.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 May 16 - 03:55 AM

Huffington Post is not "right wing press."

"Labour is facing a fresh row over anti-semitism after the party failed to publish a full report into claims of misconduct by Oxford University students.

Baroness Royall's inquiry into Oxford University Labour Club (OULC) found no evidence of "institutional anti-semitism", but she stressed that the party faces "difficulties" in providing a "safe space" for Jewish students.

And the former Cabinet minister made clear in a blog that "there is too often a culture of intolerance where Jews are concerned and there are clear incidents of antisemitism".

In a hint that her own conclusions had been misrepresented by the party, Baroness Royal told the Jewish Labour Movement that she shared its 'disappointment and frustration' that her findings of incidents of anti-semitism were not getting enough attention."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 May 16 - 03:14 AM

Steve, no obnoxious views have been expressed here.
If they were, why not just refute them?

All that stuff I refuted was personal.
It was about me, not Labour.
Likewise all your accusations against Bobad.
Why do you do it.

I think that if you could make a case, or defend your position, you would.
You go personal because you can't.

Pfr,
What's happened in the last couple of weeks is a clear attempt by right wing media, tories, Israeli regime supporters,

There is no conspiracy. It all came from within Labour.
No one outside Labour sees Corbyn as a threat.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 May 16 - 09:51 PM

So no denial of your profound dishonesty and cowardice then. Why would I ever have expected that. And fragile I am not. Why would a searingly honest man, set alongside a pusillanimous coward such as yourself, feel "fragile"? Not me, mate. My only weakness in dealing with dreadful people like you is that the seriously-misguided moderators here are far more likely to back you than me.

I accuse you, in the certainty that I'm right, of being the long-time anonymous coward-Guest who hid behind the cloak of anonymity in order to call us Jew haters. I challenge the moderators here, who have the golden opportunity of getting rid of you on grounds of faking multiple identities, to close your account and see you off for good. It would be a small but relevant step in maintaining the good name of this place. Obviously, I'm not holding my breath.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 18 May 16 - 08:04 PM

From the obsessiveness and fragility you've been displaying in your posts lately I would think Bedlam is where we should be looking for you if you disappear.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 May 16 - 05:38 PM

This man who accuses us of making personal attacks is the same man who hid behind the anonymity of "Guest" so that he could call some of us, from behind that wall of anonymity, Jew-haters. He claimed that he needed anonymity so that we would have to address the issue, not the man. Yet, from that position of anonymity, he called us Jew haters. The real shame is that he is still here at all (defended, naturally, and disreputably, by Keith). On any other website that I'm a member of, anyone faking multiple identities, as he has done, would be instantly expelled. When you think he did it in order to make anonymous attacks, it looks ten times worse. Still, it's not our gig, and Joe Offer told me that he and Max are fine with people expressing obnoxious views. Yes, Joe, that's what you told me. Don't make me prove it, please. That people like me, Dave and Musket are the usual suspects, pains in the arse, etc. But never mind that, obnoxious viewpoints freely expressed are just fine. Attacking them can, however, get you banned. All you need to do is to lack tactics and diplomacy.

Do you think I'll get away with this? I doubt it. If I disappear, look me up on the Session or the Gaughan forum and we can keep in touch.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 May 16 - 03:30 PM

yeah.. yeah.. yeah...

... got any other worn out tactics in your arsenal....?????

It's a good job we are both sensible and diplomatic enough to make plentiful use of the word "seems"... 🙄

By the way it's not a very competent 'big conspiracy'... it should at least be a bit better concealed...!!!???... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 18 May 16 - 03:00 PM

Well Mr. Punk, it seems that you are the one who is convinced that there is some big conspiracy being perpetrated against the labour party, a conspiracy for which you have not provided a shred of evidence by the way. And you say I have an extremist position. I can appreciate why you have now resorted to personal attack.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 May 16 - 02:08 PM

Steve,
You ARE opposed to Labour, you DO resort to quoting from right-wing media and pro-Zionist sources, you ARE a sycophantic supporter of the Israeli regime

None of that is true.
You may be anti-Tory, but I used to vote Labour under Blair.
I am not right wing and do not quote from right wing media. You made that up.
I mostly quote from Guardian and Independent.
Never from "pro-Zionist" sources. You just make shit up Steve. Why?

As you and others put the Palestinian case, I have put the Israeli case.
Why does that make me a "sycophant" but not you?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 May 16 - 01:58 PM

yeah... so... ???

You can't be that naive or so in denial, as to entirely discount such a reasonable suspicion of the way 'real world' covert politicking exists and operates......???

Or can no jew or Israeli do any wrong as far as you are concerned...?????

Seriously, would any sensible person believe Jews own and control the entire world's media ?...... 😣

So, why do you keep up with that stupid tactic to mock anyone here who queries the validity of your extremist position......????? 😣


============================================================


Btw.. this thread has motivated me to look into my Jewish bloodline family tree again..


It's been traced back as far as the 1780s in central Poland.

What photos still exist, it's interesting looking at the faces of strangers who are somehow part of me.

It'll be good memory therapy for my old mum asking what she can recall of her jewish father and his family back in the 1930s
before he disappeared from her life....


I wonder if I'm the grandson of a good or a bad man... or if he was probably merely a bit of both ...????

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 18 May 16 - 01:08 PM

Bobad - why are you so obsessed with jews controlling everything.. ???

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker - PM
Date: 13 May 16 - 06:46 AM

bobad - you may think you are being cleverly ironic / sarcastic...

.. and whilst genuine neo n@zi halfwits would agree with you without any doubt in their thick thug skulls;


..there is an element of truth revealing itself,
in as much as the extent to which powerful well funded/resourced pro israeli political lobbyists & activists
can exert immense interfering influence on western media and Govts..

Israeli intelligence agencies have never [allegedly] been too restrained in taking their covert fight onto the soil of other friendly nations...???

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 May 16 - 10:51 AM

Btw.. It took me about 20 minutes to preview and post due to mudcat [server ?] availability problems.

I wrote that post unaware that Steve was posting along similar lines.

Now that's an interesting coincidence......

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 May 16 - 10:40 AM

Bobad - why are you so obsessed with jews controlling everything.. ???

.. because you're the only poster to this thread who has repeatedly and consistently resorted to dragging up this old over simplistic prejudiced 'myth'...????? 😕


FACT: the entire world does not revolve around the real or imagined problems of Jews and Israel..
no matter how much you might like it to be;
or how many decent folk you accuse and attempt to discredit as antisemitic,
because they do not acquiesce to your ideologically bigoted fundamentalist doctrine.


I don't think I've ever encountered you before this thread, so I started off with an open mind as to what kind of person you could be.

Now after several days, and many posts, I can't help thinking you might be more than a touch irrational and deluded...????????

I certainly am no longer able to take you seriously.



To put this into perspective:

Ake is a man who I very often disagree with.
I am aware he is intensely disliked by other 'left wing' mudcatters for his purported views on certain important issues.
Yet, I still find aspects of him that I can't help respecting, and almost admire.

Keith, is on a completely different wavelength to me,
We rarely if ever agree at all.
But he is one of our traditional British reactionary 'eccentrics' and at heart probably a fairly decent chap.


You on the other hand now seem to me to have no redeeming characteristics, or credibility whatsoever.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 May 16 - 10:19 AM

Almost half who think there's no problem means that more than half do think so. I'm a member and I do think there is an issue that needs to be investigated and resolved. I wonder what the pollsters would have made of that response. We'll never know because they didn't ask me. And why "read Jew-controlled media?" Can you justify that extrapolation by referring to any remark you've read anywhere that could have had truckloads of Labour members thinking "yeah - the only media who blew this lot up were the media controlled by Jews"? You told us to read that into it - now justify it. Carry on like that and you'll be an embarrassment even to Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 18 May 16 - 09:02 AM

No surprise that they still invoke that old anti semitic trope.

SUMMARY: "Almost half of members in Britain's Labour party think the organization has no problem with anti-Semitism and believe a recent row on the issue has been confected by the media."

[read Jew controlled media]

Newsweek

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 May 16 - 03:10 PM

You don't understand this issue. And just wait until the next time you pontificate about how you never stoop to calling people names.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: akenaton
Date: 17 May 16 - 01:02 PM

" Telling it like it is is not a personal attack. It's displaying the kind of straightforwardness and honesty that I've tried to get you to embrace in this thread"

Is that some kind of joke? Straightforwardness and honesty are bigotry and ignorance when they don't fall in with your way of thinking.   You are the hypocrite.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 May 16 - 11:16 AM

I am not resorting to personal attack, and that is simply your way, as ever, of sidestepping the challenges I put to you at 03.13 pm yesterday. You ARE opposed to Labour, you DO resort to quoting from right-wing media and pro-Zionist sources, you ARE a sycophantic supporter of the Israeli regime - and I would add also that you have very little understanding of what antisemitism actually entails, hardly surprising when one considers your sources of propaganda. Telling it like it is is not a personal attack. It's displaying the kind of straightforwardness and honesty that I've tried to get you to embrace in this thread, so far to no avail as you, and your friend bobad while we're at it, have failed to answer a single question or rise to a single challenge put to you. And it is sheer hypocrisy to jump on this dogged anti-Labour bandwagon when there is so much racism, often of the institutionalised kind, far worse than anything in the Labour Party, in some of the organisations you've spoken up for in the past, UKIP and the Christian churches, for example. Your agenda in this thread is all too transparent, and we are not fools.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 May 16 - 10:32 AM

Ake - have I ever said I expect Corbyn to be the next Labour Prime Minister...

I was as surprised as anyone else that he won the leadership contest, and immediately stated at the time
the blairites would be out for any opportunistic excuse to undermine and discard him...

That much is an obvious negative divisive undercurrent in the Labour party

Whether that amounts to an 'internal war' or just antagonistic business as usual for cynical egotist careerist politicians..
it's open for debate...

[Personally, I think Corbyn is too much of a quiet tolerant gent with the bitterites..
He should have been tougher and kicked some of the ring leaders out..]

What's happened in the last couple of weeks is a clear attempt by right wing media, tories, Israeli regime supporters,
and anyone else who fancies a chance to get a sly kick in to Labours head, to force as big a destabilising division as they could get away with
in the run up to elections.

So, I do think I'm as close enough to the beam as any well informed and experienced observer of the political shit heap can be...

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: akenaton
Date: 17 May 16 - 09:35 AM

PFR.....do you not think that you are way off beam here?

Keith's remarks were correct, this is really about an internal war in the Labour Party turn your guns on them. They really are a heap of shit......Ok I gave Jeremy Credit for trying to change things, but how can we respect someone who has spent his life railing against the "undemocratic" EU and now stands with Osbourne and Cameron to save it.
This should be a "red line" for him if anything is.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 May 16 - 09:11 AM

You made a Thread of it, at a time of heightened Media boosted Labour bashing...

Which is an open invite for all sorts of reactionary anti labour nutcakes to vent their spleen and the entire contents of their bowels and intestines..

Honestly, that's not exactly a tiny thing now... is it...???? 😣

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 May 16 - 04:59 AM

I did not make a big thing of this Steve, and I am not impressed with your resorting to nasty personal attack instead of discussion.


My only case here was that Labour Left appears to have a problem with antisemitism in its ranks, which has been highlighted not by me, Bobad or the Right Wing press, but by Labour members themselves.

Vent your spleen on them.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 16 - 09:51 PM

The term "Georgia Brown" has never been the same for me since I heard Sweet Georgia Brown played on YouTube by a chugging tractor...

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 May 16 - 08:27 PM

That reminds me, repeats of "The Good Old Days" have started on BBC4...

We're watching 2 from the early 70s on catch up

Georgia Brown is excellent.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 16 - 08:02 PM

That would be lackeys. My spelling was lacking accuracy as I was proceeding lackadaisically with too much alacrity, alas and alack.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 16 - 03:13 PM

You are anti-Labour and you are very much pro-Israel, a sycophant in fact. You've made a Big Thing of this in this forum because you want to have an opportunistic dig at the Labour leadership, just like the Israeli regime, their lackies in the media, bitter Blairites and the right-wing press over here. Nothing seems so sweet to you right-wingers as an apparent split in the Labour Party and you are going to make hay. As with any major organisation, Labour, the Conservatives, UKIP, the Beeb, the executives of multinationals, the Catholic Church, the NHS, the armed forces, the police, you name it, there are likely to be a few extremely misguided souls who may either harbour antisemitic sentiments or operate their vocal cords on the matter while their brains are still at home. When you sat in your pew last Sunday, you can bet your life that a bloody good smattering of those around you hated Jews/Muslims/blacks/immigrants. Maybe all four in some cases. Christian religions have been institutionally antisemitic for centuries. Let's hear you having a go at THEM, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 May 16 - 02:41 PM

I always back my assertions Steve.
If I have missed one, please point it out.

My only case here is that Labour Left appears to have a problem with antisemitism in its ranks, which has been highlighted not by me, Bobad or the Right Wing press, but by Labour members themselves.

It came to my attention because it was a leading story in all the broadcast media at the time.
I do not believe it is all a conspiracy.
You believe what you want.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 16 - 10:29 AM

You still haven't been to Specsavers, have you, cowardly-trolling-outed-ex-anonymous Guest? Jonathan Freedland is explaining to the interviewer WHAT IS BEING DISCUSSED. He is not saying that the Labour Party is antisemitic. He says what I've said from the start, that there may be a few rotten apples. As for who should investigate, well who would you suggest? The police? An all-party committee? No crime has been committed as far as we know. So who? Come along, I want to know! Oops, sorry, I forgot that neither you nor Keith are ever capable of answering questions or backing up your assertions. I like Jonathan Freedland a lot. But when he says "And then the other is a criticism of Israel's right to exist, which again I think there is a way of arguing that that is completely legitimate" I profoundly disagree with him. Israel is a reality that has been with us for almost seventy years and no-one has the right to suggest that we dismantle it. The state of Israel consists of millions of Jewish, Arab and neither-of-the-above families who are largely blameless for the political situation. Our aim should be to make it a secure, peaceful and fair homeland for everyone who lives there. The policies of the latest and previous regimes militate against that, sadly. I don't care what my allies in these threads think about that, to me that discussion is destructive and should be off the agenda. I want the Israeli regime to behave much better, to stop its racism towards Palestinians and to have its military aid made conditional on that. Once that happens, the threats from outside will cease. Everyone has an interest in peace, security and prosperity that trumps war and human rights abuse every time. These constant, perverted attempts by supporters of Israel to turn Jewish people back into victims are deplorable and they get in the way of a peaceful solution. They actually hurt the people they are supposed to be supporting. And you two are the worst offenders on that score here by a country mile. And at least one of you calls US "Jew-haters."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 May 16 - 09:50 AM

There is the world as it objectively 'is'.

There is the world as it is 'understood' and theorised by multivarious opposing fundamentalist factions.

This is a world of endless conflict and cruelty........

There are the millions of ordinary families who only long for a peaceful productive safe and secure life for themselves and their future generations.....

These are always the first to suffer
when old men blinded by hatred and vengeance unleash their young indoctrinated testosterone & adrenaline crazed fighters for the cause....


... apart from all that, it's quite a nice sunny day here in south west england.. 😎

Got to go get a train to sort out the problems caused by overworked Drs and clinic admin workers
who have left my old mum with incorrect medications for the next 4 weeks.. 😣

No Labour party will ever attain perfection, but at least I'd hope the NHS would be in better shape
under a Labour Govt inspired by Corbyn's positive social welfare legacy...

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 16 May 16 - 09:02 AM

From an NPR interview with Jonathan Freedland, columnist for The Guardian on the question of anti-semitism in the Labour Party.

"So I've been really clear that criticism of Israel is completely fine. And as you say, I've dished it out myself and do. So that's not what's being discussed here. Rather, what's being discussed are two things. First is criticism of Israel that comes dressed in the garb of traditional anti-Jewish language or imagery that would be familiar to any anti-Semite long before there even was an Israel, so notions of Jewish conspiracy or Jewish control of the media or Jewish responsibility for all the world's problems and misfortunes. So that's one form.

And then the other is a criticism of Israel's right to exist, which again I think there is a way of arguing that that is completely legitimate. And there was always a tradition of anti-Zionism among Jews too. But nevertheless is framed in such a way that is applying to Israel a standard (ph) that would not and is not applied to any other country. And there too by making this exception of Jews saying they are the only people in the world who are not allowed the right of self-determination, then too there can be a question of whether a line has been crossed. So I think those are the two areas. And in this recent controversy about figures within the Labour Party, it has been both of those that have come up."

NPR

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 May 16 - 08:45 AM

" our 'own side' " - oops.. hit submit instead of preview

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 16 May 16 - 08:37 AM

Corbyn is so determined to have an independent investigation into the charges of anti semitism in his party that he appointed a labour party member as chairman of the inquiry.....lol.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 May 16 - 08:37 AM

"don't get sucked into his nasty little game of discrediting the source and not the content of any info you provide"


So basically then, it's unfair for us to query the validity of propaganda being used by enemies to discredit your 'own side'...???

.. so goes the logic of unreasonable embittered old fanatical dogmatists.... 😣

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 May 16 - 08:25 AM

The Militant is no "disaffected Blairite, a right-wing paper!"
It is an international socialist magazine linked to the Socialist Workers Party.

Can you tell us which ones (names, please)
No.
and, crucially, what they've done to earn the description?
No.
Clearly you're a scholar of these things.
No, but there is plenty of testimony from people who are, that this is a real issue, and I do not believe it is all a conspiracy against lefties.

You clearly do believe that, and you have closed your mind to the obvious truth of it, so let's leave it there.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 16 - 08:08 AM

Incidentally, Guest-misreader, I did focus closely on the content Keith quoted. Have a look. Or maybe go to Specsavers first!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 16 - 08:06 AM

Bobad, dear boy, do look at Keith's "source," then tell us truthfully whether it's your kind of thing. Please do. Google yer man's name. I did! Laughable. Written by a bloke who wants a Cuban-style revolution in the UK. Che's numero uno fan. He's also, well, rather a little too pro-Palestinian for your taste, I imagine. You OK with that? Always worth a quick bit of research before you wade in, eh? Up the revolution, comrade! 😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 16 May 16 - 07:33 AM

Keith, don't get sucked into his nasty little game of discrediting the source and not the content of any info you provide. The legitimate sources are only those that see the charge of anti semitism as a conspiracy by the Jew controlled media, banks and governments.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 16 - 06:17 AM

Well, that may be your kind of paper, but it ain't mine. Ridiculous and desperate, Keith. Jesus, what will you resort to next. The article you link to is full of unsubstantiated smears and out-of-context remarks, even calling Livingstone's remarks antisemitic, which they are clearly not. "Promotion of open Jew-haters and campaigns for Israel's destruction" my arse. You chose to quote those bits, Keith, so presumably you think they have substance. So can you name me an open Jew-hater or two in the Labour Party, or give me details of a Labour campaign to destroy Israel? And yes, I am aware of suspensions. But are they antisemites, Keith? Can you tell us which ones (names, please), and, crucially, what they've done to earn the description? Clearly you're a scholar of these things. I want to hear what YOU say, Keith, not some disaffected Blairite, a right-wing paper, your Islamophobic trolling ally or some wacky ultra-left nitwits. Or are you just going to remain a member of the smear brigade? Stop looking for dirt for a minute, Keith, and just for once confront these challenges to your credibility.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 May 16 - 05:33 AM

The Militant,

"BY JONATHAN SILBERMAN
LONDON — A rise of Jew-hatred as the capitalist crisis deepens, combined with years of the left's repetition of anti-Semitic slander — often under the guise of supporting the Palestinian struggle — is fueling turmoil in the British Labour Party."

"But anti-Semitism is no "side issue." And Labour's turmoil is not the product of a smear campaign, but of its toleration over years of anti-Semitic slanders and the promotion of open Jew-haters, along with demonization of Israel and campaigns for Israel's destruction.

Shah shared a Facebook posting in 2014 that read, "Solution for Israel-Palestine Conflict — Relocate Israel into United States." The posting stated the "transportation cost" would be less than three years' worth of Washington's support for Israeli defense spending."

" Left-wing papers, including Morning Star, Socialist Worker and Socialist, have joined the denial chorus."
http://www.themilitant.com/2016/8020/802050.html

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 May 16 - 05:15 AM

Steve, are you not aware that a number of members have been suspended over this?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 16 - 04:54 AM

So if you don't know any, why did you start this thread? Let me guess: you and bobad have seen an opportunity, anything will do, to dish the dirt on the Labour Party. Never mind that you haven't got a single name to support the antisemitism smear. I've given you the searingly honest answer, that, like any large organisation with thousands of members, there will be the occasional rotten apple and a few people who open their mouths before engaging their brains. But antisemitism is neither endemic nor institutionalised in the Labour Party, and is opposed by the leadership. Now put up or shut up. Either you can name names, and if you're right you can do that fearlessly, or you're just interested in joining the shit-stirrers like the Mayor of London and others of the Blairite tendency (two-time losers who handed us a decade of Toryism, lest we forget) in doing what they can to undermine Jeremy Corbyn at every opportunity.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 May 16 - 04:08 AM

I do not know the names of any Labour antisemites, but Khan clearly does.
He has accused Corbyn of failing to call them out.
Corbyn has at least set up an enquiry into the issue of antisemitism in the party, so he is not in complete denial.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 May 16 - 09:20 PM

So, no names then! 💤 Nighty night! Don't let the sword of truth bite! 🗡🗡🗡

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 15 May 16 - 09:14 PM

Oh, go and play your silly little games with your fellow party members, I'm sure they'll be happy to play with you. Off with you now sad, little man.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 May 16 - 08:39 PM

Nope, sorry. YOU name them please. Hey, don't forget to give us your sources! Come on now. We thought you were a coward when you were posting as the anonymous name-calling Guest. Surely you don't want to confirm the impression now that poor ol' bobad has been outed? Names, old chap, names! Those Labour Party antisemites if you please! The Telegraph daren't do it, and now YOU want us to dig up your partisan websites. Sod that, old bean. Name names! Be a devil! Be like me! 😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 May 16 - 08:32 PM

Bobad - errrmmm... just so I understand exactly what's making you so apoplectic...

Are you only this enraged by the thought of left wing antisemites...???

Are the innumerable truly nasty real ones on the right not that much bother to you...???? 😕

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 15 May 16 - 08:23 PM

I guess you haven't been following the news. Try Googling "labour party anti semites". Plenty of names in the articles.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 May 16 - 08:09 PM

No, really. You've gone on and on about these antisemites but you daren't name a single one. You don't know any, do you? And that is not tempting you to name Mudcat members, before you go off half-cock. Labour Party antisemites if you don't mind, please. If you don't want to respond with names, and as I can see that you're getting all frustrated and sweary, I don't mind if you don't answer. I'm like that, you know. Generous to those with delusions of adequacy.

By the way, have you decided to come clean and post only as bobad from now on? Make an honest man of yourself at long last? Cor, that new rule's a real pisser, no? 😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 15 May 16 - 07:54 PM

Piss off.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 May 16 - 07:47 PM

Name them.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 15 May 16 - 07:09 PM

I bet you couldn't find a single one who would come here and back you up.

All the Jewish members that I knew, except for MGM, have left Mudcat precisely because of the stench generated by people like you and your fellow regressive left travellers. Their noses are keen.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 May 16 - 06:57 PM

How pathetic is that, bobad/Guest-liar. You dig up a two-week-old article in a arch-right-wing paper that STILL doesn't manage to name names. Total tired old news. You're a desperado, aren't you. And a double-dealing, multiple-identity desperado at that. God knows why you're still here, but that isn't my choice, unfortunately. Name those names if you dare. Piss or get off the pot. You bring Mudcat into disrepute and you bring every Jew on earth into disrepute, which is as wicked as it gets. I bet you couldn't find a single one who would come here and back you up.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 15 May 16 - 06:27 PM

Maybe you should target The Telegraph with your inane threats: "Labour has secretly suspended 50 members for anti-Semitic and racist comments".

Oh yeah, I forgot, this is nothing but a conspiracy by the Jewish controlled media against the glorious leader who counts Jew hating terrorist groups among his friends.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 May 16 - 05:56 PM

Of course you wouldn't. Care to name names of members of my party who are antisemitic? If we're teeming, it should be easy enough. Don't forget to give reasons, though. There are laws.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 15 May 16 - 05:50 PM

Ah yes, the opinion of someone who admits to being a member of a party teeming with anti-semites. We wouldn't expect different.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 May 16 - 05:31 PM

Lovely man, Eban. He defended Israel's part in the Six Day War by lying about it. He worked with that arch-dove Ben Gurion. He dissed the Palestinians, saying that "Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity" after they backed out of a totally bogus round of "peace talks" in 1973. Oh yes, bobad The Anonymous Guest. You choose your sources so carefully, don't you? Not what honest people do exactly, is it? But how would you know?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 15 May 16 - 04:59 PM

"One of the chief tasks of any dialogue with the Gentile world is to prove that the distinction between anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism is not a distinction at all. Anti-Zionism is merely the new anti-Semitism. The old classic anti-Semitism declared that equal rights belong to all individuals within the society, except the Jews. The new anti-Semitism says that the right to establish and maintain an independent national sovereign state is the prerogative of all nations, so long as they happen not to be Jewish."

Abba Eban

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 May 16 - 04:28 PM

I see the customary intellectual dishonesty of the small coterie of far right posters here. I identified the exact nature of the self interest that I mentioned. It did not involve conflating any of the four distinct things - Israel, Zionism, Judaism, or being Jewish. That was ignored. I have shown conclusively that the cited definition of "antisemitism" has been abandoned and is wrong. That was ignored too. It is also by now wholly clear that Khan will do or say anything at all to undermine Corbyn, with an eye to his own main chance and taking the Labour party back to the failed and dishonest Blairite philosophy. Yet the intellectually dishonest use his statements as a statement of Labour policy and at the same time ignore their plain meanings.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 May 16 - 07:25 PM

Just for once, my two favourite songs of the whole evening came first and second, though I might just have edged it in favour of the Aussie lass. Plenty of fun as usual along with plenty of buttock-clenching. And you wouldn't think that the UK is the nation that produced the Beatles, the Stones, the Who, the Animals, Dusty, Amy Winehouse...😢

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 May 16 - 07:09 PM

This is fun - Saturday night - Watching Eurovision Song Contest - a one night in a year festival of diversity and togetherness...

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 May 16 - 07:06 PM

Which one of you is losing the battle of wits? The anonymous Guest who called us Jew-haters, pretending that we "should attack the issue, not the man" whilst simultaneously calling us names if we so much as ever so slightly demurred from agreement with the Israeli regime's activities? I don't need to hide in any safe place, unlike you. Why, two minutes after reading this, you could be ringing my house phone. That's how much I hide. I'm Steve Shaw, proudly in the open and living here in north Cornwall, and always have been. As a matter of fact, the mods love you far more than they love me. I've been threatened for being a pain in the arse, yet they leave you alone even though you post under secret multiple identities, post bigotry as a matter of routine and call people vile names. Boy, you haven't got my number, but I have both yours, and schoolyard bullies love to hide behind a wall of anonymity, if they can get away with it. Which you can't, any more. Go on, deny it. I note that you haven't, despite a number of challenges from me, which speaks volumes. You know you can't, because I'm not the only person around here who knows who you were and are. And mods, you should know from his ISP who he is. As I say always, mods, it's your gig. I shrug in your direction.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 14 May 16 - 06:35 PM

Ah, ha, ha.....mods, mods help, save me, I'm losing the battle of wits.

Boy, have I got your number. Just like a schoolyard bully you can dish it out but you can't take it.

Go hide in your safe place behind the mods now so you won't be traumatized.

Suckhole Shaw....... what a freaking baby.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 May 16 - 05:34 PM

Quite right, pfr. Note the total lack of intellectual depth in any of bobad/anonymous coward-Guest's posts in this thread. Received wisdom, right-wing websites, blind Islamophobia, lies, pro-Zionist claptrap, kneejerk cries of antisemitism, sniping, bitterness. Apart from that, isn't he wonderful. He's probably lost the location of his hole (the one he needs to crawl back into, not the other one).

And, mods, that's me exercising free speech. Take a peek at every post of bobad's in this thread, then tell me who's the villain (you might like to take into account that some of us at least don't need to resort to secret multiple identities).

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 May 16 - 05:17 PM

I just reflexively mumble "Arsehole" at at any and all fanatics and extremists.... 😩

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 14 May 16 - 04:05 PM

I would also place into the category of "regressive left" those who while posing as being critical of all religions reflexively scream "Islamophobe" at anyone who is critical of Islam.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 14 May 16 - 03:52 PM

a list of people on the left who are pro-Islamist? Er, I don't appear to know any...

I guess you've never heard of Jeremy Corbyn who counts Islamist terrorist groups Hamas and Hezbollah among his friends or George "I glorify the Hizbollah national resistance movement, and I glorify the leader of Hizbollah, Sheikh Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah." Galloway.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 14 May 16 - 03:31 PM

It's perfectly possible to support Hamas in their resistance to Israeli aggression against Gaza

Is a perfect example of pandering to Islamists.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 May 16 - 02:26 PM

"regressive left"


It's actually no more than a fashionable new buzz word to beat up an element of the left that has always existed or been imagined to exist to a greater extent....

In the 1980s the popular reactionary media insult employed to marginalise, discredit, and divide, fringe factions within Labour
was "The Looney Left"...

Older mudcatters may remember the equivalent term back in the 1960s and 50s...???

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 May 16 - 02:25 PM

Well he must be very proud that people like you appreciate his road to Damascus conversion, I'm sure. To think, but a few years ago you might have been branding him a murderous Jew-hater (I hope you don't mind if I borrow your language), yet now he's your guru. Well I never! Now would you be so kind as give me a list of people on the left who are pro-Islamist? Er, I don't appear to know any...

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 14 May 16 - 02:10 PM

among the hard left

I find the term "regressive left" as coined by Maajid Nawaz, a former member of the radical Islamist group Hizb ut-Tahrir, to better describe this subset of "leftists" who give the progressive left a bad name.

Regressive left

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 May 16 - 01:58 PM

It was pounced on by other Labour members who were using it opportunistically to undermine Jeremy Corbyn. Stop pretending that you don't understand these really basic things,
It was pounced on by other Labour members who were using it opportunistically to undermine Jeremy Corbyn. Stop pretending that you don't understand these really basic things,

That is why I asked whither the party?
Also, it is hard not to conclude that among the hard left there is an issue about anti-semitism.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 May 16 - 01:48 PM

It was pounced on by other Labour members who were using it opportunistically to undermine Jeremy Corbyn. Stop pretending that you don't understand these really basic things, Keith. And of course it became a national issue, not because the people who made it into an issue give a stuff about antisemitism or the Jews but because they gleefully pounced on a perceived split in the Labour Party, a time-honoured ploy by the media.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 May 16 - 01:09 PM

Keith - obviously Khan can't pop up here to explain precisely what he meant...

sorry...

But we could waste all our time and attention applying the intellectual tools of critical analysis to the 'meaning'
of quickly dashed off headlines by hack reporters working to pressing deadlines...


PS.. I appreciate it's one of your key debating methods,
but I personally try my best to NEVER DO emphatic assertions of opinion or conjecture as statements of fact..

Which I was long ago educated to consider as not a particularly intelligent or honest approach to discussion
That's a discipline ingrained in me since Grammar School,
and reinforced by the nature of my long time ago cultural ideology field of degree and post grad studies...


NOTE: but I do understand how that is a valuable tool for propaganda and cynical amoral dogmatic political activists... 😣

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 May 16 - 12:38 PM

Khan is deliberately stressing the word "IF" as he acknowledges the possibility that there may be some problem,
and then positively confirming he would not hesitate in "calling it out" .. IF and WHEN he might ever encounter it...

He DOES call it out, and he accuses Corbyn of "failing to call it out."
That was in the Indy headline and the text,
"Jeremy Corbyn accused of failing to 'call out' Labour antisemitism by Sadiq Khan."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 May 16 - 09:47 AM

Keith - it's a long time since I was a technically accurate writer of 'correct' English..
but even I can tell you are wrongly understanding Khan's isolated statement..

He is first and foremost a politician - it is a politician's statement in the idiomatic coded language of Politicians...

Khan is acutely aware that every word he utters in public will be over scrutinised without mercy.

He is carefully appearing to please everyone who might be listening..

He is addressing the public at a time of intense strategic media magnified discrediting of the Labour party.

This is the context for his statement.

Khan is deliberately stressing the word "IF" as he acknowledges the possibility that there may be some problem,
and then positively confirming he would not hesitate in "calling it out" .. IF and WHEN he might ever encounter it...

It's your misperception that he is appealing to what you think you are reading into it...


..and btw.. I am absolutely not in denial..

I am too cautiously objective and rigorously self disciplined a thinker to allow that to happen on any issue....

please remember and respect that !!!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 May 16 - 06:44 AM

I may not know much about the Labour party, but Khan and all those other members do.
Khan says, "If somebody is saying views that are appalling, disgusting and clearly anti-Semitic, I've got to call it out."

Ask him who those "somebodies" are who are "clearly anti-semetic" and if they are do you want them in the membership?

you pounce on the slightest hint of misjudged remarks and blow them out of all proportion

No I did not. It was pounced on by other Labour members and became a national issue.

your "views" which are actually predigested Israeli regime propaganda.

This is not about israel, but on threads that are I have put Israel's side of the argument.
Why does that make you angry?
Why should not both sides be heard?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 May 16 - 06:24 AM

I am not in denial at all. I'm asking you to tell me who has not been outed who hasn't already been dealt with, who in your opinion is antisemitic in the Labour Party and what's your evidence, and who do you think should be expelled? You know summat, Keith, you're very good at asking us "challenging questions" but you appear to be congenitally incapable of answering them yourself. I asked you a question and instead of answering it you've twisted it into a "Steve's in denial" fib. My opinion is as follows, Keith. As in any larger organisation, there may be antisemitism in the Labour Party. However, it is not endemic or institutionalised - there is no evidence for that. The woman who suggested that Israel should be moved to the US is a bloody idiot, but it was not an antisemitic remark. She did not say that JEWS should be ethnically-cleansed out of Israel. Now that WOULD have been antisemitic. Ken Livingstone was a bloody fool for saying what he did, but what he said was technically accurate and not antisemitic and the remark was not intended to demonise or disadvantage Jews BECAUSE THEY ARE JEWS. They both deserve a good bollocking and should be made to promise to not make such remarks again, at the very least.

Be honest, Keith. You are a sycophantic supporter of Israel and its regime. They can do no wrong in your eyes. Like that regime and its ardent backers, you pounce on the slightest hint of misjudged remarks and blow them out of all proportion in order to wrong-foot your political enemies and divert attention from the gross misdeeds of the Israeli regime. I get that you support Israel. As a matter of fact, I support all the citizens of Israel regardless of ethnicity or religion and wish them peace, prosperity and security, and anyone who says Israel should be wiped off the map is insane. But I do not support their regime. You take the whole package, without trying to think for yourself. That's great, but don't pretend to come here with your "views" which are actually predigested Israeli regime propaganda. That just makes you a mouthpiece. As we know, a mouthpiece is too easily separated from the brain six inches above it.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 May 16 - 05:17 AM


I don't see obvious proof that he believes Labour is stuffed full of 'jew haters'..

No-one is suggesting that.
Many people inside and outside the party are saying that there is a problem, and an enquiry is being set up.
Khan seems to think that it is self evidently a fact.

You two seem to be in denial that there is any issue at all.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 May 16 - 02:23 PM

I think politically ambitious nails it, pfr. Where would we be without 'em! Interesting that people like Keith find solace in lefties like him, innit, when they happen to "say the right thing." I think we call it expediency on their part.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 May 16 - 02:05 PM

I see 2 subtexts to Khan's statement..

1.. He's a muslim being very cautiously diplomatic in needing to appease and not alienate various factions of supporters and potential enemies..

1.5.. He is a successful politician after all... 😜


2.. He's politically ambitious and basking in new found power and glory,
and making clear his position on Corbyn, whatever may happen regarding Labour Leadership rancour in the coming months..

I don't see obvious proof that he believes Labour is stuffed full of 'jew haters'..
though, as a muslim he's bound to be over sensitive to insinuations and accusations, and inference of 'guilt by association'
that will no doubt continuously be pointing his way.. ???

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 May 16 - 01:40 PM

So who should be expelled for antisemitism, Keith, and can you give precise details of what they've done to deserve expulsion? Keith...?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 May 16 - 01:23 PM

Pfr, yes Mudcat is not running well recently for me either.

Khan says "if" but he does call it, so he clearly accepts it.

"If somebody is saying views that are appalling, disgusting and clearly anti-Semitic, I've got to call it out. The fact that that person happens to be from my party, the fact that the leader of my party is failing to call it out, that's irrelevant. I have to call it out."

Steve,

I'm a bit bemused here, Keith. If the Mayor of London insists on calling out antisemitism, who are the antisemites he's calling out that Jeremy Corbyn hasn't already called out? Keith...?

I do not speak for Khan, but I assume he means that the response has been inadequate. No expulsions yet.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 May 16 - 01:13 PM

I'm a bit bemused here, Keith. If the Mayor of London insists on calling out antisemitism, who are the antisemites he's calling out that Jeremy Corbyn hasn't already called out? Keith...?

And Keith, if you want to do a really useful piece of calling out, how's about calling out your mate bobad, name-caller-in-chief (which you profess not to like) and posting secretly under multiple identities, a form of dishonesty (which you profess not to like) - or is it OK because he thinks we're all antisemites? I've called him out already, but it doesn't get me anywhere...

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 May 16 - 08:12 AM

oh yeah.... Keith - ""Khan states "saying views that are appalling, disgusting and clearly anti-Semitic""

Errrmmm.. don't you remember you initially posted that Khan quote
with the magic big difference word "if" at the start of it...

ie..""If somebody is saying views that are appalling, disgusting and clearly anti-Semitic""......

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 May 16 - 08:10 AM

The Israel regime and its supporters are continuing to equate criticism of Israel with Antisemitism to the extent that the former European definition has now been called into question.
I was quite interested to read the American State Department's definition, part of which reads:

"The fifth trend is the blurring of the lines between What I hear from our diplomatic missions, and from non-governmental organizations alike, is that this happens easily and often. I want to be clear – legitimate criticism of policies of the State of Israel is not anti-Semitism. We do record huge increases in anti-Semitic acts whenever there are hostilities in the Middle East. This form of anti-Semitism is more difficult for many to identify. But if all Jews are held responsible for the decisions of the sovereign State of Israel, this is not objecting to a policy – this is hatred of the collective Jew or anti-Semitism. "
So in fact the Israeli regime are still guilty of Antisemitism in claiming that all criticism o Israel is Antisemitic - in other wortds, it is The Jews who are committing the atrocities and war crimes, not the Israeli regime.
They have certainly blurred the lines between opposition to the policies of the State of Israel and anti-Semitism, and deliberately so.
The piece also includes:
"The sixth trend is the growing nationalistic movements which target "the other" – be they immigrants, or religious and ethnic minorities – in the name of protecting the identity and "purity" of nations"
which is, of course, what Israel is in the process of doing in ejecting Palestinians and replecing them with Israeli settler, thereby creating an Apartheid State (an accusation widely made by Israeli Jews and Jews elsewhere throughout the world.
It seem, despite its herclean efforts of propaganda, Israel cannot avoid being recognised as what is it a terrorist state defending its terrorism by blaming The Jewish People as a whole.
Jim Carroll.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 13 May 16 - 08:07 AM

all parties harbour their fair share of mentally deficient fanatics....

Some more than others it would appear.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 May 16 - 07:59 AM

Tech Query: Keith - I've been having problems all week with this thread opening very slowly and frequently crashing half way.
It's a pain in the arse trying to follow and keep up with this discussion.
As you are in the UK as well [not abroad or using a VPN - as others often might be]
are you having similar problems ?

I just assumed it's mudcat server problems again...???

=================================================================

ok back on topic...

Sadiq Khan - he's high in the public spotlight, and presumably not a big fan of Corbyn.
And uniquely for a UK muslim, in such a position of power he has to tread extra carefully on multi cultural issues...

fair play to him... and well done for winning London.


Musabbir Ali - sounds like a complete fukwit arsehole,
if all that is true then he needs to feel the full clout of Labour Party discipline...

Sad fact of life, all parties harbour their fair share of mentally deficient fanatics.... 😣

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 13 May 16 - 07:49 AM

bingo.. go on bobad.. you're dying to call me it...!!!!!

"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 13 May 16 - 07:42 AM

Labour Party Suspends Member for Accusing Jews of 'Genocide' Against British

In the latest in a long series of suspensions of members of the British Labour Party for anti-Semitic comments, the party has suspended Musabbir Ali, of the Tower Hamlets branch of the party in East London "pending an investigation," the London Jewish Chronicle reported Thursday.

Ali's suspension followed his tweet of a blatantly anti-Semitic blogpost that alleged that Jews have committed genocide against the British people. Britain's Jewish News website reported that the suspicion followed a complaint on the matter to the Jewish Labour Movement, which is affiliated with the British Labour Party.

Ali is said to have posted a link to the blogpost, entitled "Timeline Of The Jewish Genocide Of The British People," on Tuesday. The timeline runs from the year 1066 to the present. Among the distortions of history in the blogpost is a description of 1933, the year in which the Nazis took power in Germany, stating: "International Jewry declared all-out war on the German People and swear to destroy them after they threw off the shackles of Jewish oppression."

Among the British leaders which the blogpost dubs "Jewish puppets" are 17th century British leader Oliver Cromwell and 20th century British prime ministers, Neville Chamberlain, Winston Churchill, Edward Heath and Tony Blair, the Jewish Chronicle said. The newspaper added that after more than 100 people were killed in the Turkish capital, Ankara, in a terrorist attack in October, Ali tweeted: "I think it's must be work evil #Israeli."

Haaretz

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 May 16 - 07:40 AM

Pfr please note, that although I said "appeared antisemitic" Khan states "saying views that are appalling, disgusting and clearly anti-Semitic,"

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 May 16 - 07:36 AM

The Independant, 22 hours ago,

"Jeremy Corbyn accused of failing to 'call out' Labour antisemitism by Sadiq Khan

He added: "If somebody is saying views that are appalling, disgusting and clearly anti-Semitic, I've got to call it out. The fact that that person happens to be from my party, the fact that the leader of my party is failing to call it out, that's irrelevant. I have to call it out."

"In an article for The Observer, Mr Khan had already criticised Mr Corbyn's electoral strategy, writing: "It should never be about 'picking sides', [or] a 'them-or-us' attitude,"

"Our aim should be to unite people from all backgrounds as a broad and welcoming tent – not to divide and rule.""

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyn-failing-to-call-out-antisemitism-in-labour-sadiq-khan-a7025696.html

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 May 16 - 07:33 AM

"And so another one outs himself."

bingo.. go on bobad.. you're dying to call me it...!!!!! 😜

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 May 16 - 07:28 AM

Sweden...???

reminds me...

A comical aspect of the Israeli propaganda machine...

In Sweden last night at the semi final of the Eurovision Song Contest.
The Israeli entry [not a bad young singer, hugely expensive stage costume & presentation, but dull song]
somehow gained enough votes to win a place in the finals..

A member of the jubilant Israeli team barged forward through the line up of finalists to the front,
desperately waving his full size flag centre stage at the cameras, almost knocking the Swedish star presenter out of the way..

Kinda illustrates how Israel, tiny nation that it is, desperately seeks attention on the world stage.
For instance hijacking the run up to the recent UK elections
to make it all about antisemitic 'hard left' Labour critics of The Israeli Regime...????

[it's the weekend - time to have fun with entertaining conspiracy theories... 😜 ]

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 13 May 16 - 07:07 AM

..there is an element of truth revealing itself,
in as much as the extent to which powerful well funded/resourced pro israeli political lobbyists & activists
can exert immense interfering influence on western media and Govts..

And so another one outs himself.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 May 16 - 06:46 AM

bobad - you may think you are being cleverly ironic / sarcastic...

.. and whilst genuine neo n@zi halfwits would agree with you without any doubt in their thick thug skulls;


..there is an element of truth revealing itself,
in as much as the extent to which powerful well funded/resourced pro israeli political lobbyists & activists
can exert immense interfering influence on western media and Govts..

Israeli intelligence agencies have never [allegedly] been too restrained in taking their covert fight onto the soil of other friendly nations...???

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 13 May 16 - 06:21 AM

Exactly, Keith. Say one word against Israel and out come the big guns.

Surely, Keith, you must know by now that Jews control everything in the world, even Swedish government officials.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 May 16 - 05:17 AM

"Some Swedish politicians said this about her."
And Wiki says this about her
A truely remarkable woman with a track record to prove it, no matter what some politicians say about her.
Tzipi Hotovely (Hebrew: ציפי חוטובלי‎, born 2 December 1978) is an Israeli politician who currently serves as a member of the Knesset for the Likud, and as Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs since 2015.
Hotovely is a doctorate student at the Faculty of Law in Tel Aviv University. Hotovely practises Orthodox Judaism and is a self-described "religious rightwinger"
Wiki
Ofir Akuni is an extremist Israeli right-wing politician.
Akunis is opposed to relinquishing the Occupied Territories and supports settlement in all parts of the country "with no disparity between the Golan, the Galil, the Negev or Yehuda and Shomron". Akunis believes that Israel has the historical and moral right to the territory under Israeli control, according to the teachings of Jabotinsky, "All Mine".
Wiki
Another attempt to smear opponents of Israel by the extreme right.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 May 16 - 04:37 AM

Exactly, Keith. Say one word against Israel and out come the big guns. Thanks for the perfect illustration. Now we know why US presidents daren't take on the Israeli regime.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 May 16 - 04:29 AM

The extra judicial killing concern was raised by Sweden's Foreign Mister, Margot Wallstrom.
Some Swedish politicians said this about her.

"The statement provoked a strong reaction across the political spectrum with deputy foreign minister Tzipi Hotovely declaring Wallström persona non grata, stating that her Swedish colleague was "de facto supporting" terrorism via "a terrible combination of foolishness and diplomatic stupidity."

Science, Technology and Space Minister Ofir Akunis went further, suggesting that, instead, there should be an investigation into "how a woman who so bluntly hates Israel was elected and still holds the role of foreign minister of Sweden."

Swedish Government,
"Economic relations between Sweden and Israel are in a positive stage of development and we see a clear increase in the numbers of business-related visits and inquires.

The Swedish Government actively promotes such contacts. Lately Israel has received several delegations from Sweden with businessmen and senior officials to develop co-operation in a wide range of fields, including hi-tech, IT, telecommunications, biotech, environmental technology, infrastructure and consumer goods.

We want to develop trade – in both directions "

"Embassy of Israel, Stockholm
As part of the Ministry of Industry and Trade and in close association with the Israel Export Institute, the Commercial Departments can offer a variety of free services to companies and individuals wishing to trade between Israel and the Nordic countries."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 May 16 - 09:26 AM

"This is a perfect example of the kind of dissembling antisemites like to employ."

Well, ex-Guest, how can we help it if you never read the news? 😂😂😂

It's quite interesting to do some Google-doodling about the attitudes of some of Keith's decent and democratic countries towards the Israeli regime's aggression towards Palestinians. Try things like Sweden's/France's attitude towards Israel, or just "other nations' attitudes towards Israel." Go on, have an investigative Google for an entertaining half hour, like I did this morning. There's tons of stuff out there to have you shifting uncomfortably from one buttock to the other, Keith and the article formerly known as Guest. Cor, fancy the Swedes, for example, publicly suspecting the regime of extrajudicial killings (nice euphemism, eh?) Last time I looked, Sweden was a decent and democratic country. Of course, you may prefer to stay in your comfort zone. I'm sure you'll find succour in some more Haaretz articles, or on the Jewish Chronicle website, or on AIPAC's website. Keep 'em coming, guys, but just remember that some of us are more than up for confronting unpalatable truths, unlike you deniers.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 May 16 - 08:29 AM

"I was hoping to discuss the current problems of Labour including the number of members who appear to be antisemites."

thank you Keith.. because as we all should know by now, appearances can be deceptive...

And can most certainly be intentionally distorted, manipulated, misconstrued, misrepresented, etc.. etc..

That's the cynical nature of media & politics, and a propaganda strategy for malicious opponents with hostile agendas... 😫

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 12 May 16 - 08:21 AM

Israeli aggression against Gaza.

This is a perfect example of the kind of dissembling antisemites like to employ.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 May 16 - 06:33 AM

It was not a "Guardian piece." It was a letter signed by over 80 British Jews. Kindly refrain from misrepresenting just for once. The person who referred to the article in Haaretz was bobad, not Bobert, who may not be overjoyed to be associated with it. You have my opinion already on the Haaretz article. It was biased, twisted, pro-Zionist nonsense of the worst kind. Even you should be able to come up with something more considered and challenging than that. The "points" it raises have all been dealt with in this thread.

"What Israeli aggression against Gaza" - you really are having a laugh, aren't you.

What's an "enemy of Israel," Keith? The same thing as a "critic of Israel," perhaps? How many countries have waged war on Israel lately? Well I'm most decidedly not an enemy of Israel, I'm making those accusations, so your assertion is woefully off the mark.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 May 16 - 05:11 AM

Once again Bobert's Haaretz article can be read for free if you arrive via Google.
Just Google part of the text in quotes.
I used
"The anti-Zionist mutation of anti-Semitism is particularly pernicious,"

Worth a read because it argues the opposite case to Steve's Guardian piece.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 May 16 - 05:02 AM

Steve,
"No-one is, and no decent democratic country even accuses israel of 'war crime and ats of terror.'"
Define decent.

Shorthand for liberal democracies such as Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Scandinavian and other EU states,.....
None accuse Israel of war crimes or acts of terror.

Why do you put war crimes and acts of terror in quotes?

Because they are unsubstantiated accusations made only by enemies of Israel.

It's perfectly possible to support Hamas in their resistance to Israeli aggression against Gaza

What Israeli aggression against Gaza. The aggression has always come from Hamas and Israel has just responded to it.

Steve, this is not a thread to rehash all those old arguments.
I acknowledge that it is legitimate to criticise Israel and any other state.

I was hoping to discuss the current problems of Labour including the number of members who appear to be antisemites.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 May 16 - 03:09 PM

Ah, shite, Jim - you may consider my botty well and truly smacked... 😳🔫

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 May 16 - 02:53 PM

"Come on, give us a list of them, Keith."
Sorry to be critical Steve, but you're usually much quicker on the uptake than this - you really don't appear to have grasped Keith's rule-book.
When Israel commits an act of terror you wait to see which politician of which "decent country" (carefully vetted, of course) condemns it as a war crime.
If one does, they cease to be a "decent country" because they have condemned Israel, which makes them "Anti-Semitic".
If the politicians of no (carefully vetted) "decent country" condemns it, no matter what it is, (the massacre of women and children, the facilitating of the mass slaughter of 3.500 unarmd refugees, the use of chemical weapons of fragment missile like flechettes), it can't possibly be described as a war crime.
As Keith doesn't believe in Human Rights organisations such as Amnesty or mercy organisations such as Médecins Sans Frontières, you can't possible take their word that war crimes have been committed - ergo, Israel has never committed a war crime.   
Are you 'fick or what Steve - have you never read 'Catch 22'?
The fact that war crimes and acts of state terrorism are defined by what it is, not by which State's politicians says nothing about it seem to be beyond the comprehension of 'humanists' like Keith.
Wake up there boy!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 May 16 - 01:15 PM

We've had this "decent countries" malarkey from Keith before. Come on, give us a list of them, Keith. Start with your top twenty...

(Blimey, Keith's even got me trying to set Keithly booby traps now...)

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 May 16 - 11:39 AM

"You are accusing all Jews of Israeli war crime and ats of terror.
No-one is, and no even accuses Israel of " war crime and acts of terror."
Where have I ever done that - I make a point of referring to The Israeli regime - you, on the other hand defend the unchallenged atrocities and war crimes of that regime without exception.
Parsonally, I don't give a shit what the politicians of your "decent democratic countries" condemn and don't condemn - many of them support and sell arms to terrorist states (another thing you have defended in the past) and countries like the U.S. have proved capable of committing war crimes and atrocities .
I accuse the Israeli regime of committing war crimes and atrocities - you say that is Antisemitic, which makes you an Antisemite.
By the way, your claim that equating Israeli behavior with Nazism is Antisemitic comes from the European definition which you have said is invalid and outdated.
You can't pick the bits you like as valid and reject the bits you don't
Oh - you Antisemites are silly!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 May 16 - 11:06 AM

Can't open your link to read the full article Boo-boo, as I am not longer a subscriber to Haaretz, but I did find related article on the debate.
Describing criticism of Israeli policy as Antisemitic is Antisemitic - can't get around that one.
Einstein's Group letter directly suggesting the rise of Zionist Fascism was probably the earliest one linking the terms.
Jim Carroll

Jewish community must 'welcome' anti-Zionist, pro-BDS Jews, Beinart says– but Shavit says, Excommunicate them

Peter Beinart called on the Jewish community last week to admit anti-Zionist and pro-BDS Jews. These young Jews are supporting BDS (boycott, divestment and sanctions of Israel) because they hear "the voice of Sinai," he said.
Ari Shavit, the Israeli author who has become a celebrity in American Jewish spaces, sharply contradicted Beinart. He said that these young Jews must be kept out of community spaces because BDS is an "evil, sophisticated" campaign that is filled with anti-Semitism.
The difference between the two men reflects differences over the definition of Judaism and what Jews owe to their community. Shavit described Judaism as support for Israel. Beinart described Judaism as an ancient and living religion that has often contained anti-Zionist strains.
The two writers spoke June 12 on an all-Zionist and mostly-right-wing panel about "What's Next for Israel?" at the 92nd Street Y, an organization that has censored Palestinian and anti-Zionist voices. They were introduced by Thomas Kaplan, a billionaire who has supported Israel and has investments that could profit from a war with Iran.
At the end of the discussion, Beinart challenged the hall filled with 500 mostly older folks (and surely almost all Jews, and paying $40 a head) to include anti-Zionists at the table:
"And the last thing I'll say and this is the most challenging I think maybe for most people, including for me: Our tent, our Jewish community, our proverbial Seder table, is going to have to include the Jewish kids who are not Zionists, including the Jewish kids who are involved in the BDS movement. Because Jewish kids are overrepresented in the BDS movement. You may find that frightening beyond belief, you may find it terrifying. And I understand why you do, but it's true."
Beinart then related an anecdote of a campus meeting of Students for Justice for Palestine where most of the group was Jewish, and continued:
"Every generation hears the voice of Sinai anew. This generation– one way it is hearing it makes us radically uncomfortable. We cannot afford to tell them that they are not welcome in Jewish spaces, because then we alienate them not only from Israel but from being Jews as well. We need to welcome them in, we need to argue with them, we need to challenge them, we need to be challenged by them. We may be entering– I take no pleasure in this, I find it a terrifying reality– We are entering, An era in which there is no longer going to be a Zionist consensus in the U.S. Especially if Israel continues on its current path. We will have to remain a Jewish community in that environment and we will have to be welcoming even to those people on the far left or the far right whose views we find deeply, deeply upsetting."
Shavit responded sharply. He disagreed with Beinart because of his experiences touring campuses in the 18 months since his book My Promised Land came out.
"I've been there. I've been listening to them," he said of the BDS supporters. "I'm for free discussion… but BDS in so many places has serious anti-Semitic dimensions….I've seen young liberal Jews in such a state because they are aware of that." (Many Jewish students have said that BDS makes them fearful.)
Shavit said what was needed was a new partnership between American Jews and Israeli Jews that would change Israel's image in the world. He called it the David challenge: "We have to convince ourselves and others that we are the David. We cannot be perceived as the Goliath."
How will Israel pull that off? If young American Jews and Israeli Jews worked to bring social justice in Israel and helped Palestine too, it would put Israel on "the right side of history" and show the world, "we are right and we stand for the right kind of things."
He called it a "Martin Luther King Zionism": because Martin Luther King fought for his people and for universal values too. "We are the universal tribe," Shavit explained.
American Jews will want to participate in this partnership because they face an "existential" challenge: they depend on Israel to maintain their Jewish identity. So this is the partnership:
"You help us survive there, we help you survive here."
(I must say here, I cannot imagine a more dispiriting view of religion and affiliation than Shavit's.)
Throughout the conversation, Beinart stood up for a view of Jewish religion that was based on ancient traditions and texts– and is therefore very conservative (and not my cup of tea)– but that is freed of the burden of Zionism. He said movingly that it upset him to see gleaming new Holocaust memorials in cities where the Jewish school doesn't have a gym or a science lab, and people can't afford to send their kids there without getting a second mortgage. Our community cares more about the dead than the young, he said. He said that the only place he can find translated Torah portions from Genesis and Exodus to give to his children is from ultra-Orthodox publishers in Borough Park, Brooklyn.
Shavit seemed to hold it over Beinart and Dan Senor, a second panelist, that they send their children to the Heschel school in New York. His children do not need a Jewish education to know that they are Jewish; no, that is "easy" for them.
"My 11 year old and 6 year old– they don't go to the shul in their life. Don't go to Heschel. They're Jewish." But American Jews "have to choose to be Jewish every day."
Really he was talking about Jewish nationality, and the definition of Israel as a Jewish state. Throughout his comments about Israeli political life, Shavit never included Palestinians as equal members of that society.
It was Beinart who stood up for universal rights. He said that Israel has a "security subcontractor in the West Bank" – the Palestinian Authority – "which allows them to pretend that the West Bank doesn't exist in the elections"—a point you hear at SJP meetings all the time. And he said that only conservatives really participate in the Israeli elections because Palestinians are the left and though they compose 20 percent of Israeli society they are written out of the governing coalitions (a point I have been making for many years).
He said that because older American Jews never speak to Palestinians, they have little idea why Israel's image is shifting. He knows why. The BDS movement is growing because young Americans are attracted by Palestinian-Americans' message. These advocates are "very impressive, very articulate, deeply American," and they don't believe in a Jewish state.
"I never met a Palestinian who believed that Israel's existence is anything but a tragedy and a disaster. Who in their fantasy world would have Israel not exist."
By deeply American, he said he meant that they don't have "thick accents," they don't see America as a foreign world. They are particularly effective with LGBT and non-white audiences. And when they say all they want is "one person, one vote" and equality, young people agree with them. Meanwhile, the pro-Israel coalition on campus is "Hillel and the college Republicans."
Beinart was repeatedly applauded for his remarks.
He struggles openly with his tribal affiliation. Shavit does not. The Israeli is surely an excellent writer who composes ideas in an elegant compelling manner. That is why his book did so well here, why he is feted by synagogues across the country. He is a storyteller who knows how to place himself in the edge of the frame; and he has been honest about the ethnic cleansing of Lydda during the Nakba, the chapter the New Yorker published.
But his politics left me cold, and will surely leave a lot of young Jews cold. They are essentially tribal politics. And the real point of his remarks was that the audience must maintain the Israel lobby so that Jews can carry on their society in Israel (because Israel utterly depends on a superpower's support).
Shavit began the evening by saluting the miracle of American Jewish life alongside the miracle that is Israel. He didn't know America before he came for the publication of his book, he said. That was a huge emotional event for him: the launching of his international career, with "my beloved friend" the editor of the New Yorker doing downfield blocking for him. He told a story of seeing his book being sold as a Hanukkah gift on the Upper West Side and being so moved that he sat down in a cafe to have a glass of wine and make "my first and last tweet."
Often that night his understanding of US cultural and political life struck me as self-involved and provincial. Certainly his view of religion is.
BTW, all the panelists at the Y wrung their hands over the young Jews. The hall was filled with older ones. A social revolution is taking place inside Jewish life, in which those who feel true solidarity with Palestinians are the primary movers. There can be no doubt of the truth of Beinart's statement, the era of Zionist consensus is over.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 May 16 - 10:31 AM

Until this thread the words "anti-Zionist & anti-Semitism" have never been included in my vocabulary

I knew the words existed, but had, and still have no practical use for them.

Back out in the real world I will continue to rely on the word "Racism"

It's powerful in it's strength of meaning, and well understood.

Yes, I am aware fruitcake academics and activists will have prefab pre-scripted pejorative 'accusations'
prepared for anyone like me who is content and assured in remaining to consider anti-Zionist & anti-Semitism
as sub classifications within the umbrella heading "Racism"...

but sod 'em, that's their egocentric problem..
I've got more important issues & priorities to be concerned about.... 😣

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 May 16 - 10:23 AM

Can't pay, won't pay, won't read. And again, no comment from you. Not debate really is it, ex-Guest? And what bit you've posted is a pack of lies and distortions, all of which have already been addressed in the thread. I'll leave it brief.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 11 May 16 - 09:57 AM

"The anti-Zionist mutation of anti-Semitism is particularly pernicious, because it denies not only the right of the Jews to a state, but their very identity as a people. Very few anti-Zionists hold that Judaism as a religion should be eradicated. That distinction is, at the same time, their fig leaf and their weapon. By "tolerating" Judaism as a religion, they can try to shake off the designation of anti-Semitism, a curious attempt since they are trying to lecture the Jewish people about the nature (the negation, actually) of our own identity. The claim is that Judaism is a legitimate religion, but that the Jews are not a legitimate nation—just a collection of people of other nationalities who practice the religion of Judaism, who, therefore, are not entitled to a nation-state. This desire to dictate the parameters of Jewish identity to the Jewish people may be worse than traditional Christian anti-Semitism, or even than some forms of racial anti-Semitism, neither of which deny the Jews our place among the nations, hate us though they may."


Anti-Zionism Is Indeed a Form of anti-Semitism

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 May 16 - 09:38 AM

An excellent letter in today's Guardian, signed by over 80 British Jews. Note the insistence on the separation of Zionism from religion. Spot on. And, Keith, as you always seem to want balance when we discuss Israel, how about the point in the letter about the serious anti-Muslim racism in our politics? Never seems to come up much, does it? In your perpetual attempts to make Jews sound like victims, what price your sense of unfairness and lack of balance now? These are British Jews calling for fairness, balance, and a sense of proportion with regard to history. Are they all misguided, Keith?

Anti-Zionism does not equate to antisemitism

In his Daily Telegraph article on which you report (Chief rabbi: Labour has severe problem with antisemitism, theguardian.com, 4 May), Rabbi Ephraim Mirvis said the antisemitism crisis engulfing Labour had "lifted the lid" on bigotry.
He joins in the sensationalist allegations of antisemitism in the Labour party, where the headlines' decibel level is in inverse proportion to the evidence supporting them. Ignoring the more serious anti-Muslim racism in electoral politics, Rabbi Mirvis attacks the Labour party by launching a defence of Zionism which turns it from a political ideology (that can be supported or opposed) into a religion that is beyond question. We British Jews reject this categorically.
Mirvis attacks as "antisemitic" those who separate Judaism from Zionism. Yet most Jews who perished in the Holocaust were indifferent to Zionism and many opposed it. In the last municipal elections in Europe's largest Jewish community, in Poland, just before the second world war, Poland's Jews voted overwhelmingly for the secular, anti-Zionist, socialists of the Bund, while Zionist parties got derisory votes. Is Rabbi Mirvis recasting those victims of the Holocaust posthumously as enemies of Judaism and therefore as antisemites?

Alexei Sayle, Leon Rosselson, Les Levidow, Michael Rosen, Mike Leigh, Miriam Margolyes, Moshe Machover, Naomi Wimborne-Idrissi and 80 others (full list at gu.com/letters)

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 May 16 - 06:13 AM

Each time one of these people make these statements it's an attack on the Jewish People, many of whome are far more critical of Israel than we are.
Despicably, the Israeli authorities have branded all Jewish critics of their policy, "Self-hating Jews" about as low as you can sink I would have thought, but early days yet, I suppose.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 May 16 - 05:59 AM

Agreed, Jim. It's just upping the ante and potentially putting Jewish people, in Israel and elsewhere, in harm's way via polarisation. Now that's real antisemitism, Keith. Examine your conscience.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 May 16 - 04:56 AM

"Not unless Israel is unfairly singled out while the worse crimes of its enemies and other neighbours ignored."
Which is happening where exactly, unless you are referring to say the crimes of the west against the Third World, which I'm sure you're not?
Israel is mounting a propaganda campaign in defence of its aggressive actions, acts of terror, crimes against humanity and expansionism by claiming that any criticism of those actions is "Anti-Semitic".
Nobody here has blamed "the Jews" for Israel's proven behaviour other than people like you who have consistently defended Israel's every action, every massacre, every aggressive invasion, and are now suggesting that someone who is criticising Israel is Antisemitic - you've done the same to me in the past.
Who here has ever suggested that the Jews should not have a homeland?
Nobody – then why make such a claim unless you have decided to be part of Israel's propaganda campaign?
This has now become a standard defence of Israeli terrorism and, as far as I am concerned, anybody who resorts to it is an Antisemite - welcome to the club.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 May 16 - 12:32 AM

My birthday happens to be tomorrow.

I do not drink alcohol as has oft been stated here.

Can't get even the slightest thing right can you, Steve?, you poor little fellow!

Off this silly thread now so do not fash yersel' to rejoin.

Adieu...

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 May 16 - 09:38 PM

Grr. I just realised that my latest denigration of Hamas was on another website, not here. Here's what I said.

It's perfectly possible to support Hamas in their resistance to Israeli aggression against Gaza without supporting their ludicrous stated intent to wipe Israel off the map. I've vehemently opposed nuclear weapons all my life, but I've still voted for a party* that embraces them. I vehemently opposed the Iraq invasion but I still voted for the party that took us in, knowing that the alternative was far worse. If I lived in Northern Ireland I would vote for Sinn Fein, in spite of the bloody history of the IRA. That's how the world is. It is not antisemitic to say that I support Hamas in resisting the IDF abuses if I make it clear that I oppose the targeting of Jews BECAUSE THEY ARE JEWS. To me, that's what antisemitism is, nothing else.

*Voted tactically in their favour, to be accurate.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 May 16 - 07:41 PM

...gibbers Steve yet a·bloody·gain...

...Sorry Steve: but that is semantic and taxonomic rubbish...

...I think you are making a fantastically fulsome fool of yourself by so pertinaciously declining to grasp so hyalinely patent a point. Surprised at such intransigent idiocy on the part of one whom I generally regard as of at least average intelligence! Please don't wreck a fairly intelligent point, reasonably germane to the theme of the thread, by further pathetic parroting of this piddling non-point...

I have far better things to do than respond to this flowery nonsense. As it appears to be your birthday, why don't you toddle off and have another vat of wine.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 May 16 - 07:00 PM

Sorry, Steve; but can't identify what you find in the least uncivil in my last post addressed to you, whose tone seems not dissimilar to your last addressed to me --

"Michael, keep up. Read any article..." Sounds pretty peremptory to me; and the word 'please' appears nowhere within it -- tho it does in mine:- "please, in particular, specify anything I have said..."

What more do you want? I do not take kindly to being accused of incivility when I have clearly been considerably more civil in my response to you than you were to me in the post to which I was replying.

What on earth has got into you -- PLEASE!? Never seen such a blatant & pusillanimous cop·out! Surprised at you! You should be ashamed of yourself.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 May 16 - 06:38 PM

A civil response from you, Michael, might have received a riposte from me. Try again. I await.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 May 16 - 06:34 PM

"There is nothing wrong with that Jim, and no-one is claiming that there is.
Not unless Israel is unfairly singled out while the worse crimes of its enemies and other neighbours ignored."

Define unfairly. Define worse crimes. Tell us when we ignore what "its enemies and other neighbours" do. Tell us why we should always be obliged to catalogue the wrongdoings of other nations when we are discussing what Israel does. Little Jimmy was being told off by his teacher for pushing a girl. He complained that it wasn't fair because his friend Peter was worse because he'd been looking up girls' skirts. Hands up those of us who think the teacher should have let Jimmy off just because he wasn't telling Peter off at the same time. If you want to discuss the worse crimes of the other Middle East nations, start a thread on it. You could start with Saudi Arabia, which perpetrates human rights abuses that make most other countries look like fluffy bunnies. And I have said so many times. No ignoring by me.


"Then you have to ask why the Jewish state only is singled out for criticism."

It isn't. I for one have criticised Hamas (not a state, but hey ho) many times. You haven't noticed because it would be inconvenient for you to notice. I think my most recent attack on Hamas may have been in the last 24 hours. Saudi Arabia, see above.

"No-one is, and no decent democratic country even accuses israel of 'war crime and ats of terror.'"

Define decent. The US? Would you like me to repeat my litany of foreign policy abuses I made the other day? The U.K., which colluded in the invasion of Iraq, helping to cause the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent people and misery for millions? That kind of decent country? Why do you put war crimes and acts of terror in quotes? Should we ask the Lebanese children whose limbs were blown off by Israeli cluster bomblets left in hundreds of thousands all over their countryside about war crimes and acts of terror, or was that OK because their mums and dads were to blame? Or does collateral damage to children not count?   

"'only if everyone living there is a Muslim, otherwise I level the same stricture at them as I do at Israel for calling itself a Jewish state.'

Except that you never have Steve!"

OK, tell me who qualifies, Keith. You know me. I hate religion and I'll take no prisoners! I hold no candle for Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Egypt, Syria, etc. Not a one of them. They have one thing in common with Israel: I feel sorry for the ordinary people who live in all of them for their lack of security and guaranteed peace. We in the West have fuelled their conflicts and propped up their dictators and we should be ashamed.

To be honest, I don't know why I bother with you. Your take on the Middle East is simplistic, one-sided and argued from a position of wilful ignorance, especially in relation to Israel, and you don't have any original thoughts, resorting only to higher authorities. You set out to confirm your prejudices and shun any information that gets in the way.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 May 16 - 06:15 PM

Steve -- Do keep up right back 2U! Leaving aside that boring whiskery old "How far is it a religion or an ethnicity or an itsy·bitsy·ickle·bit of both?" bit, please, in particular, specify anything I have said which can possibly be interpreted as implying that I think that "anyone who criticises Israel is a wholehearted supporter of Islam".

I do not think that; & I challenge you to quote back to me any statement of mine, on this thread or elsewhere, which could possibly be so construed by any person of reasonable intelligence.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 May 16 - 02:46 PM

only if everyone living there is a Muslim, otherwise I level the same stricture at them as I do at Israel for calling itself a Jewish state.

Except that you never have Steve!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 May 16 - 02:43 PM


Am I suffering false memories...???

No Pfr. Back then Israel was recognised as a David fighting for its very survival against a Goliath.

Jim,
then you are an Antisemite
Huh??
- the criticism here is of the Isreali regime, not the Jewish people.

There is nothing wrong with that Jim, and no-one is claiming that there is.
Not unless Israel is unfairly singled out while the worse crimes of its enemies and other neighbours ignored.
Then you have to ask why the Jewish state only is singled out for criticism.

You are accusing all Jews of Israeli war crime and ats of terror.
No-one is, and no decent democratic country even accuses israel of " war crime and ats of terror."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 May 16 - 02:41 PM

Michael, keep up. Read any article on this matter penned by a Jewish person and they will tell you that the question of the Jewish state is one of ethnicity, not religion. There is no Christian ethnicity to speak of. As for "Muslim states," well they are just that only if everyone living there is a Muslim, otherwise I level the same stricture at them as I do at Israel for calling itself a Jewish state. You are falling into the usual pro-Israel trap of thinking that anyone who criticises Israel is a wholehearted supporter of Islam. Well I'm not, any more than I'm a wholehearted supporter of Christianity (not much doubt where I stand on that, is there?)

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 May 16 - 01:15 PM

Am I suffering false memories...???

But back in the 70s going to Israel to spend a summer working in a kibbutz was seen as a really cool admirable thing for young Brit counter culture students to do...

... like in some regards back then Israel was being portrayed as progressive almost communist utopia...??? 😕

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 May 16 - 12:58 PM

"...referring to a country that is a quarter non-Jewish as a Jewish state, by you, me, the UN, Jews inside or outside Israel or anybody else is not accurate," gibbers Steve yet a·bloody·gain.

Sorry Steve: but that is semantic and taxonomic rubbish, which I dealt with some posts back. Is Spain not a Catholic country because a number of Anglicans have taken up residence there? Does the presence of a sizeable Druze minority stop Syria from being a Muslim state? England is a Christian country because it has an established church by statute & tradition. But that doesn't mean that everyone who lives in it has to be a member of that one establishment, does it? — or why do Bradford & Leicester look so different from so many other of our cities?

Similarly, Israel is a state with an official national religion, so it is a Jewish state, properly called, having been declared and established as such -- which doesn't in any way deprive members of any other religion {or none} domiciled there of citizenship.

I think you are making a fantastically fulsome fool of yourself by so pertinaciously declining to grasp so hyalinely patent a point. Surprised at such intransigent idiocy on the part of one whom I generally regard as of at least average intelligence! Please don't wreck a fairly intelligent point, reasonably germane to the theme of the thread, by further pathetic parroting of this piddling non-point!

Thank you!

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 May 16 - 12:17 PM

"Steve, I am not accusing you of all the things you say I am, just that you do not seem to want Jews to have a homeland, a Jewish State."

Not once, in all the thousands of posts in this forum, nor inside my brain, in all of my three score years and four, have I EVER expressed or alluded to the notion that Jews should not have their homeland. You betray once again your utter lack of any interpretive powers whatsoever. What I do say is that referring to a country that is a quarter non-Jewish as a Jewish state, by you, me, the UN, Jews inside or outside Israel or anybody else is not accurate. Further, it is likely to lead to discrimination against non-Jews. That discrimination certainly occurs, the name they give their state may have little to do with that, but it can't be helping. I'll not be accused of post hoc ergo propter hoc.

As for this:

"....The Jews were given one by the UN in 1948, and they will not give it up without a fight to the end."

Well there you are. Fight to the end. That's exactly the way to make ordinary Israelis feel happy and secure, isn't it, not to speak of the people who live in neighbouring states. No talk of making peace, of compromise, of getting round the table. Of course, as the military aid from the US is unconditional, they don't have to do any of that. But, by God, they can fight, fight, fight, right to the end, with all that mighty weaponry. And they will.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 May 16 - 11:53 AM

"I am, just that you do not seem to want Jews to have a homeland, a Jewish State."
then you are an Antisemite - the criticism here is of the Isreali regime, not the Jewish people.
You are accusing all Jews of Israeli war crime and ats of terror.
You are the only one making that assumption - nobody else.
The Israelis are entitled to a homeland - their own but not anybody else's
The Arabs have as much right to their land, including that confiscated by aggression, as the Israelis have.
A reminder of the real world outside of that created by Israeli propaganda
Ongoing settlement policy
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 May 16 - 11:36 AM

ok.. I bit... I googled...

So that'll be Guardian correspondent Hadley Freeman, author of such weighty socio political tomes as..

"The Meaning of Sunglasses: A Guide to (Almost) All Things Fashionable"

"Be Awesome: Modern Life for Modern Ladies"........ 😬

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 May 16 - 11:10 AM

.. yet more quotes about well off privileged careerist politicians and cloud cuckoo land student politics...

Seems the media and other storm in a teacup shit stirrers have forgotten that the millions of ordinary grass roots labour voting families have ever even existed... 😣

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 May 16 - 10:52 AM

Guardian correspondent. Extract here but please read the rest.

" Corbyn has developed some strange tic that compels him to say "and all forms of racism" every time he is obliged to condemn antisemitism, even though none of his old friends or MPs are being racist against anyone but the Jews. Diane Abbott insisted that the whole thing was a "smear", as though Livingstone was a figment of our collective imagination. When Livingstone announced that he couldn't possibly be antisemitic because he'd slept with Jewish women, the country wished he was. George Galloway, another old pal of Corbyn's, appeared with the inevitability of dry rot, insisting that this was "an entirely synthetic crisis", perhaps confusing the crisis with his hat. Others insist the whole thing is a plot against the Labour leader, which makes me wonder if perhaps all antisemitism is actually, secretly, about Corbyn. Honestly, you could have powered the National Grid with the amount of energy the left was expending on telling Britain's Jews they were wrong to feel grossed out by all this.

Like I said, no one ever thinks they're the bad guy. So the new NUS president Malia Bouattia claims her stance against Zionism is purely political, even while using decrepit antisemitic tropes such as "mainstream Zionist-led media", which is about as political as a joke about hooked noses."
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/07/hadley-freeman-labour-party-hitler-antisemitism

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 May 16 - 10:42 AM

I can't make my mind up if Nationalists or Religious zealots are historically the worst blight on the peace and safety of mankind..

But when both pernicious traits are combined in in a big bunch of loud mouthed dogma blinded power mad sociopaths..

Then the world truly knows fear... 😱


.. just speaking generally.. not pointing at any one particular group of dangerous nutters...

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 May 16 - 10:33 AM

....The Jews were given one by the UN in 1948, and they will not give it up without a fight to the end.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 May 16 - 10:31 AM

Steve, I am not accusing you of all the things you say I am, just that you do not seem to want Jews to have a homeland, a Jewish State.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 May 16 - 09:07 AM

Judaism is not the state religion of Israel. It doesn't have one. Anglicanism is not the state religion in the UK because it is not the religion of Scotland or Wales, which, last time I checked, are still in the UK. De facto may be another matter, of course. When discussing Israel it is important not to unconsciously conflate Judaism with Jewish ethnicity. In many regards that is the problem when it comes to these spats over antisemitism, which, to me, means attacks on Jews as an ethnic group BECAUSE THEY ARE JEWS. The right of Jews to be regarded as an ethnic entity, not a religious grouping, is to be respected in my view. Ethnicity within Christianity is a far more diffuse issue.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 May 16 - 08:48 AM

3rd para, bugger·it!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 May 16 - 08:46 AM

Apologies for the anacoluthon at the beginning of my 2nd para above; but I think my drift is clear enough.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 May 16 - 08:39 AM

Steve -- This is, as often averred, tho less so perhaps than whilome, "a Christian country"; in that it has its own Established Church, recognised as such by statute, whose senior clergy are ex officio members of the legislature, and whose membership is by statute enjoined on the country's Head Of State &c &c &c ···   The fact that actual practising churchgoing members of the Church of England are now a small minority does not in itself invalidate that designation.

In the sense that Judaism is its recognised state religion (tho notionally without prejudice to the rights of belief of any of its citizens who choose to follow other faiths, or none, in what is a free society), Israel remains a "Jewish state" by the statutory status within its establishment of the religion named...

It is admittedly an unfortunate fact that the principles of such a free society are not being practised as might be wished by many of the country's erstwhile supporters — who now, like me, find themselves unhappily unable to maintain that support in view of many of the actions of its current administration — does not of itself undo the principle on which the designation is based: any more, I reiterate, than the fact, that so few UK citizens are nowadays active churchgoers, prevents this from being accurately called "a Christian country", both by tradition & by various statutory enactments.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 May 16 - 08:35 AM

"Reflexively dismissing the charge of antisemitism as a plot to unseat Jeremy Corbyn comes from precisely the same conspiratorial logic as antisemitism itself"

No one has quite got round to calling me an 'antisemite yet.. but seem to be slowly inching ever closer....


I was 18 in 1977 - the peak punk rock year - I, along with best mates, had studied Govt & Politics / Brit constitution at FE college..

We were already en route to becoming politicized towards socialism,
when at that time "Rock Against Racism" and the "Anti N@zi League"
emerged as popularist crusades that inspired and educated youth all around the nation;
crucially in backwater provincial towns like mine,
where the non white population was near zero
and jewish school mates had been segregated for morning assembly at our grammar school....

I moved to Leeds / Bradford at 19, it was an imense culture shock, but one I revelled in.

Rock against Racism and The 2 Tone multiracial ska movement was in full swing.

My generation has that foundation

It was a most culturally progressive of learning times for all teenagers involved in music and arts.

It is at my core and in my bones...

These pro Israeli academics that are being quoted here are theorising themselves so far up their own arseholes
they are a divisive menace to the UK multi cultural Labour movement... 😠

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 May 16 - 08:22 AM

I have said in these threads until I'm blue in the face that I oppose people who want to wipe Israel from the map, kill Jews because they are Jews or move Jews out of Israel. That is a bloody stupid post, Keith, and you know it. In fact, it's a troll post containing defamatory remarks. "Presumably," eh? On what grounds do you "presume" it? To complete the picture, you support a situation in which Arabs are turned into second-class citizens in their own country. You have failed to address any of the points I made. Do you or do you not justify the clear discrimination against Arabs in Israel that is staring you in the face? Did you know that the Israeli national anthem contains only strongly Zionist sentiment with reference to Jews only? Would you like to be an Israeli Arab soldier, singing that anthem, or with others singing it around you, Keith? Do you really understand the regime you so blindly and unconditionally support? It doesn't sound much like it from here.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 May 16 - 07:51 AM

"Presumably you think the Jews should be deprived of their homeland"
Nobody has ever claimed that here - it is Israeli expansionism that is the problem, and that is opposed by many Israeli and non-Israeli Jews alike - are you claiming they they believe Israel should be expunged from the map?

Israelis Against Settlements
Britain and Empire stood alone in 1940.
When it had no alternative
During the rise of "Herr Hitler" Britain was happy to let it happen and criminalised those who opposed fascism as "premature Anti Fascists".
Some right wing IRA members did have contact with the Nazis, but on the other hand, the British Monarch and his wife were supporters of the Nazis, as was the proprietor of the leading Bristish right-wing newspaper, the Daily Mail - support for Hitler in Britain lasted throughout the war.
DAily Mail's friendship with Herr Hitler

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 May 16 - 07:14 AM

Do YOU, Keith, think that it's right to call a nation that is a quarter non-Jewish a "Jewish state?" Yes or no will do.


It was set up by the UN as a Jewish State and it remains the only one in the world, so yes.
Presumably you think the Jews should be deprived of their homeland.
That the only Jewish State should be expunged from the map.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 May 16 - 07:08 AM

Well I'm a member of the Labour Party, and not only was I a postgraduate student (once I'd got my degree from Imperial College) but I passed the postgrad course too and got the letters. That puts me one up on your source, Keith, but you don't bloody listen to me, do you? 😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 May 16 - 07:03 AM

The term Jewish State was invented by arch-Zionist Theodot Herzl, as Michael said. It was pounced on with glee at the time of the Declaration in 1948 by Israel's founding fathers, who mentioned it five times in the document. The UN did not demur, but the term was not theirs. And you have not answered my very simple question yet, Keith. Do YOU, Keith, think that it's right to call a nation that is a quarter non-Jewish a "Jewish state?" Yes or no will do.

As for this gem:

"The Arabs in the Jewish state are the lucky ones."

Why, I suppose the house-boys who lived with their wives and kids in tiny shacks at the bottom of my uncles' gardens in Rhodesia were also "the lucky ones." And how "lucky" to be an Arab in Israel, if you've had your land and water supply stolen, your family olive groves slashed in half by an apartheid wall, when you're waiting for three days to get through a road block, to be stuck for months or years in an Israeli jail without charge. Gosh, I'm so jealous! Were that I should come by such good luck! Citizenship and full rights, eh? Well let's have a look at how far that has got the Arabs who are so lucky to live in Israel. Arab men twice as likely to be jobless. Arab women three times as likely. Arab men on half the pay of Jewish men. Far less funding for Arab schools leading to twice the Jewish dropout rate. Hardly any industrial investment in mainly-Arab areas. Buses that go around Arab areas instead of through them, making getting to work and school difficult. Israel almost at the bottom of OECD equality ratings because of this ghettoisation of Arab areas. Equality laws largely unenforced. All this is in a report funded by the Bank of Israel in 2014 called "The labour market of Israeli Arabs." I can't do links.

My uncles said that the house-boys were basically lazy and feckless, like the blacks in Rhodesia in general, and were lucky to have such kind employers. What's your excuse for why those lucky Arabs in Israel aren't even luckier, Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 May 16 - 06:43 AM

It was the Conservative right who appeased "Her Hitler" when he was embarking on his crusade to wipe out the Jews,

No, but the IRA cheered his armies for "cleansing" Europe of Jews.
Britain and Empire stood alone in 19140.

The unqualified opinion of a postgraduate student at U.C.L.

Who is qualified to have an opinion, and why not a postgraduate of UCL?
Tanya Gold?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/labours-anti-semitism-problem-should-sicken-any-voter---includin/

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 May 16 - 06:09 AM

"Another Labour member speaks,"
The unqualified opinion of a postgraduate student at U.C.L.
Antisemitism is traditionally the domain of the Right
It was the Conservative right who appeased "Her Hitler" when he was embarking on his crusade to wipe out the Jews, it was Industrial right-wing capitalism in Germany which herded six million Jews into the extermination chambers.
Unsubstantiated accusations
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 May 16 - 05:30 AM

Another Labour member speaks,
"Reflexively dismissing the charge of antisemitism as a plot to unseat Jeremy Corbyn comes from precisely the same conspiratorial logic as antisemitism itself: it is a denial of agency over our own ideas and methods of political organisation.

So far, the centrist plan to 'tackle antisemitism' in the Labour Party has amounted to a heavier reliance on internal party bureaucracy – more investigations and more powers to a 'Compliance Unit' to root out activists far beyond the pale of any democratic accountability.

But antisemitism is a problem with faulty ideas, not individuals; it corrupts our solidarity with foreign peoples and estrange one of the world's most historically oppressed minorities from the cause of labour. There are better ways to build internationalism – and better ways to 'criticise Israel'.

Labour's left flank has had some astounding victories over the past few months – now we need the intellectual integrity to be worthy of them. If we do not call out our own prejudices, then those who would return us to the footnotes of history will do so on our behalf.

They may very well succeed, and perhaps they would be right to try."

Mark Crawford is a postgraduate student at UCL and a member of the Labour Party
http://leftfootforward.org/2016/05/antisemitism-is-built-on-flawed-thinking-the-labour-left-can-call-it-out/

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 May 16 - 05:25 AM

Indeed. Is it not a disgrace to the entire Arab world that an entity like Shatila Refugee Camp should still exist nearly 70 years after such Arabs as chose to leave then-Palestine were herded there by their refuge-hosts: a third or fourth generation of interned refugees of all things! — in glaring contrast to the number of Jewish immigrants to Israel since then who have been entirely integrated and absorbed! What is wrong with the Lebanese & their allies, to allow such an enormity to persist for so long, for purely [counterproductive, it might well be said] propaganda purposes!

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 May 16 - 03:13 AM

Steve,
Exactly. "Jewish state" is the characterisation that Israel bestowed on itself.

Exactly not!
It was the UN that created israel as the "Jewish State."
A homeland for Jews.
Why do you deny the Jews alone the right to a state?

Yes there were some Arabs living there.
Should the Jews have expelled them all?
Instead they gave them citizenship and full citizenship rights.
Those Arabs who chose to leave in 1948 were denied citizenship by their Arab hosts, denied the right to settle, denied citizenship or employment rights, and forced into camps where their descendants live to this day.
The Arabs in the Jewish State are the lucky ones.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 May 16 - 01:31 AM

The locution "Jewish state" in fact probably derives from the influential late C19 book called The Jewish State, in which Theodor Herzl, a non-observant Jewish reporter who had covered the Dreyfus trial, argued the necessity of such an entity, having been shocked by the widespread antisemitism revealed by the case of which he had previously been unaware. Herzl is thus widely regarded as the actual progenitor of the Zionist* movement.

≈M≈

*in the erstwhile merely political sense, rather than the oddly tendentious recent pejorative application, with its overtones of nationalistic belligerence. I belonged in my early teens, eg, to an organisation called the Federation of Zionist Youth, whose aim was simply to establish that state which ultimately came about when I was 16, and not to kill anyone or commit any other atrocities -- 'Zionism' then constituting a 'house', as the Good Book sez, of 'many mansions' [which we nowadays would call 'rooms'].

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 May 16 - 06:51 PM

Wiki,
The "Jewish state" is a political term used to describe the nation state of Israel.
Modern Israel came into existence on 14 May 1948 as the homeland for the Jewish people. It was also defined in its declaration of independence as a "Jewish state..."

Exactly. "Jewish state" is the characterisation that Israel bestowed on itself. Barely three-quarters of its citizens are Jews. Is this the third or the fourth time I've mentioned that rather inconvenient fact? What do YOU think, Keith? Do YOU think that a quarter of the population of a country should be excluded on racial grounds from its soi-disant definition? Yes or no, Keith? Can you answer just this one question on your own without resorting to what some document, declaration, guru or selected historian has said? Antisemitism is racist, yet, without irony, you are defending the right of a country to define itself solely on racial grounds, excluding millions of its people, turning them in effect (and in practice in many cases) into second-class citizens. That isn't very nice, Keith. I have heard it called racist...

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 May 16 - 05:56 PM

Well there you have it. Thank you for publishing that without our having to pay, and proving once again that your obsession is seeking out the rantings of unbalanced, near-lunatics to prove that we're all Jew-haters if we ever raise the slightest criticism of Israel. I also note your total lack of comment about the article.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 May 16 - 05:49 PM

.. well.. that seems to emphasise just how divorced from reality student politics still are...

Nothing seems to have changed much since I was a mature student back in the 1980s....

Nor my opinion that young relatively well off middle class students who adopt a fashionable leftist political identity
and later end up as careerist Labour party MPs and admin employees, or 'leftist' academics
have anything but a theoretical book learned concept of what the core values of Labour policies really mean,
and what families like mine experienced in factories and council estates.

.. and no, a gap year slumming with the chavs & oiks doesn't really count... 😜

Of course, students struggling to cope with tuition fees, and juggling studies with long hours of minimum wage part time jobs
deserve full consideration and respect...

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 09 May 16 - 05:10 PM

Labour Party's anti-Semitism Struggle: Recognizing Jews Are a People, Not Just a Religion

I left the U.K. Labour Party when I received my Green Card. I felt it was odd to continue to be part of a British political party when I had officially moved overseas for good. Yet, watching the party miserably fail to deal with anti-Semitism over the past ten days, and Ken Livingstone's unending obsession with Hitler and the Jews, took me back to my days on the National Executive Committee of the National Union of Students, an organization that has been a feeder to the front lines of left-wing national politics in Britain for decades.

In 2008, I was elected as one of the 27 national executive members of the NUS. As Sam Lebens, a friend and mentor who served there two years before me, wrote in the Forward, the NUS was often a tense place for Jewish students, especially when they tried to get the majority to accept that anti-Semitism should be taken seriously.

During my own year on the NEC the first Gaza war, Operation Cast Lead, took place. We debated motions about whether NUS would march with the Palestine Solidarity Campaign or condemn the usage of anti-Semitic imagery at the rallies. At another point during that year, I had to confront the hard left on the National Executive Committee about a leaflet that was being handed out that claimed that the Holocaust killed thousands of trade unionists, disabled people, gays and communists. While these groups were indeed victims, the pamphlet omitted one key group: Jews. Here we had dedicated anti-racists educating about the Holocaust while airbrushing out its Jewish victims.

In-between votes on theses issues, I would engage those who were part of the hard left — those who saw themselves as belonging to the same leftist faction as Ken Livingstone — on how they could possibly justify their anti-racist credentials when they were doing things that were so offensive to the Jewish community.

It all came down to their inability to understand why Jews were anything more than a religious group.

They felt that assigning Jews a peoplehood status would be to agree with the eugenics of the Nazis that Jews were "different" or "other;" that only the far-right fascists could see Jews in this way, rather than as just normal white folk. By reducing the Jewish experience into a religious dogma, the hard-left concurred, they were doing Jews a favor.

Jews did not have a place in the traditional liberation campaigns of the NUS. Being Jewish was not the same as being black, LGBTQ, female or disabled. Jews were hated by fascists; the hard left just wanted them to assimilate. According to the hard left in the NUS, being particularist about your Jewish ethnic background was to buy into a racism that was forced upon you.

The hard left was simply incapable of learning the lessons of why Jews felt that the enlightenment did not go their way (read: the Dreyfus affair) and insisted on "flattening" what it means to be a Jew into a solely religious experience.

The utter refusal of the hard left in Britain to accept that anti-Semitism can morph from the traditional eugenics into parts of modern-day anti-Zionist discourse stems from its rejection of Jews as a people. It is an unfortunate fact that Judaism comes from a time before census surveys began separating the "religion" box from the "ethnicity" box. In their worldview, Jewish peoplehood is a categorical error.

The core problem will not be solved until the hard left in Britain recognizes that the Jewish people are more than just a religious community. But the hard left is finding it hard to see that modern anti-Semitism exists beyond the far right, and in fact extends into its own territory.

Therefore, their obsession with Israel — and their inability to distinguish anti-Zionism from anti-Semitism — is based in their rejection of the concept of the Jewish people. The nation state was never a construct that the hard left liked in the first place. When coupled with a people that the hard left denies exists outside a religious context, Zionism becomes for them the embodiment of everything they oppose. The Jewish state reminds them that a Utopian view where a leftist emancipation will heal all wounds fails the test of history, and that demography and territory is something that oppressed people do aspire to.

The personalities within Britain's Labour Party who are being accused of having an anti-Semitism problem are of the same political bent as the hard left that I came into contact with during my time on the NEC of the NUS. It's therefore clear that Labour's anti-Semitism problem won't go away until the hard-left elements within the party accept that Jews are more than a religious group. It won't matter how many people are suspended from the party if its leader, Jeremy Corbyn, can't bring himself to say "anti-Semitism" without qualifying it alongside other forms of racism.

Without recognizing the particular challenge of modern anti-Semitism, the new inquiry into anti-Semitism that the Labour Party has launched will — I fear — achieve nothing.

Joel Braunold is the Executive Director of the Alliance for Middle East Peace. He served on the National Executive Committee of the National Union of Students in 2008.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 May 16 - 03:46 PM

"This is about the problems of the Labour Party!"
In your opinion maybe - it is about Israel using the accusation of Antisemitism against anybody who criticies their terrorism - inluding the Labour Party as far as I am concerned.
You are once again attempting to avoid the awkward bits by squaeling "thread drift".
We will debate this and every topic in whatever way we see fir - it's called 'freedom of speech' - look it up.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 May 16 - 03:16 PM

"That really is just denial.
Whenever Livingstone and the MP made those statements it would have been picked up.

I would point to the above quote from pro Israeli academic / activist"David Hirsh" posted by bobad,
which serves very adequately to reinforce my 'suspicion' that a network of bloggers and well funded 'think tanks/research groups'
are constantly monitoring and cataloguing every social media post by problematic individuals
they regard to be anti israeli...

Someone, somewhere needed to dig up those old social media statements by 'the MP' Naz Shah and bring them to high profile media attention
so close in the run up to elections..... 😣

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 May 16 - 03:14 PM

You do not have to pay to read the Haaretz article if you arrive via Google.
Google "Labour anti semitic"

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 May 16 - 03:11 PM

Jim
This is, as far as I am concerned, about the Israelis using the Holocaust as an excuse for its behavour -

Why Jim?
This is about the problems of the Labour Party!

(It is bollocks BTW but I will not discuss it here.)

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 May 16 - 03:04 PM

"Jim, I am not sure what point you are making with that IT piece."
This is, as far as I am concerned, about the Israelis using the Holocaust as an excuse for its behavour - they have accused all Jews who criticise as "self-haters".
They have accused Livingstone of Antisemitism on the same basis, even though there are top figures in the Israeli establishment of saying exactly the same thing - there always have been.
Former heads of Mossad accused the Israeli regime of acting as did the Nazis.
When those at the top say these things the accusation is validadted on both sides.
Not surprised I had to spell it out for you but I'm grateful for the opportunity to make that clear.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 May 16 - 03:01 PM

PFR
I have more than made clear my informed suspicion that any Labour party 'problem' with antisemitism
has been fabricated by 'agencies' outside of the party,

That really is just denial.
Whenever Livingstone and the MP made those statements it would have been picked up.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 May 16 - 02:58 PM

Jim, I am not sure what point you are making with that IT piece.

Re Bobad's link, I was able to read the whole article earlier though not a subscriber. not sure what is going on.
The article is by a former Labour member who was on the NEC of the NUS in 2008.

Steve,
It is not a whim to state that a country that is at least a quarter non-Jewish should not be calling itself a Jewish state.

That is how it was set up and that is what it is, notwithstanding your whim Steve.

anyone attacking its policies is attacking the Jewish state, therefore attacking Jews.

Ridiculous. Of course not.
Israel's policies are attacked every day in its parliament and by its free media.
Any country's policies can be attacked and of course that is not racism.

what you'd think if you were a Muslim or a Sikh, or even an ex-Catholic atheist, who happened to have been born in Israel.

You could make the same point about "Islamic states" and "Arab States."
Why don't you?
Why single out the Jewish state again?

Wiki,
The "Jewish state" is a political term used to describe the nation state of Israel.
Modern Israel came into existence on 14 May 1948 as the homeland for the Jewish people. It was also defined in its declaration of independence as a "Jewish state," a term that appeared in the United Nations partition decision of 1947 as well. The related term "Jewish and democratic state" dates from 1992 legislation by the Israeli Knesset.

You are entitled to your whims Steve, but they are irrelevant to reality.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 May 16 - 02:47 PM

"Btw bobad - why do you keep wasting your time linking to articles in specialist interest international media
that few if any of us subscribe to and are able to read...??????"

Probably because he didn't realise it wasn't free, and almost certainly because he hasn't read it. One thing that's clear about this bloke is that he debates by soundbite and sniping.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 May 16 - 02:14 PM

'Trouble in Paradise'
From this morning's Irish Times
Jim Carroll

Netanyahu says army general's Holocaust remarks "unacceptable'
MARK WEISS
in Jerusalem
Prime minister Binyamin Netanyahu has launched a scathing attack on the eputy Israel Defence Forces (IDF) chief of staff Maj Gen Yair Golan for "disrespecting the memory of the Holocaust".
Gen Golan sparked controversy last week when, during a speech honouring Holocaust remembrance day, he said he identified trends in contemporary Israel similar to those in pre-war Europe.
"If there is something that frightens me about the memory of the Holocaust, it is seeing the abhorrent processes that took place in Europe, and Germany in particular, some 70, 80 or 90 years ago, and finding manifestations of these processes here among us in 2016, " he said.
Not a comparison
After a public outcry, the general clarified that he hadn't intended to compare Israel to Nazi Germany.
"I had no intention of making that comparison - it is absurd and unfounded, " Gen Golan said. "There was no intention of creating that impression or to criticise [Israel's] political echelon. "
However, Mr Netanyahu said Golan's comments were "unacceptable".
"The comparison implied is outrageous and baseless. These remarks should not have been made at all, and certainly at the time they were said. These remarks wrong Israeli society and disrespect the memory of the Holocaust. " Culture minister Miri Regev, from Mr Netanyahu's ruling Likud party, called on the general to resign, saying he had joined those who delegitimise' Israel.
Retired generals along with politicians came to the general's defence, most notably defence minister Moshe Ya'alon, who issued a statement in support of Golan, saying his words were twisted in an attempt to "politically damage the IDF and its officers".
Israel's opposition leader Yitzhak Herzog praised Gen Golan as a courageous commander. "The crazies who will now start screaming against him should know: this is what morality and responsibility sound like. "
Former IDF chief of staff Benny Gantz said: "Golan's statement was poignant and brave. Neither the left nor the right have a monopoly on ethics. "

"Simple denial is not useful."
It's served you well enough for as long as I can remember
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 May 16 - 02:03 PM

Bobad / Keith - sorry but when I'm consumed with worry about my old mum's health care,
how long we wait for appointments, how reliable the diagnosis by an overtired and stressed Dr might be,
if the medication will be the correct one, how the hell we will cope if and when the dementia worsens
and we need to find any remaining affordable day care... etc.. etc.. etc..

.. under such circumstances.. the theoretical academic concerns on the finer points of anti-anything-ism will not be our families greatest priority...

Now, I'd hate to sound like a petty minded insular nationalist xenophobe..

... plenty enough real ones of those to point at in UKIP and the tories..

but our votes for the UK Labour Party are for fairer Health, social welfare and working conditions that are more immediately relevant to our needs...

I'd guess the same counts for most other ordinary Labour supporters...

We can't be oblivious to what is happening on the other side of the world, and how it might impact us at home,
but it can't be pragmatically as important to us as it is to the over vociferous zealots obsessed with making a meal of it for their own self absorbed ends...

Btw bobad - why do you keep wasting your time linking to articles in specialist interest international media
that few if any of us subscribe to and are able to read...??????

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 May 16 - 01:44 PM

Hmm. Click and you can get the convoluted one-liner, as in the post above, but you have to pay to read any more. Perhaps our poster would care to explain it to us carefully. Sorry, mate, you'll have to be bobad this time, not an anonymous sniping Guest...

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 09 May 16 - 01:36 PM

"The reason Britain's hard left refuses to accept that anti-Semitism can morph from traditional eugenics into parts of modern-day anti-Zionism is because it utterly rejects the notion of Jewish peoplehood."

U.K. Labour's anti-Semitism Struggle: Recognizing Jews Are a People, Not Just a Religion

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 May 16 - 01:01 PM

.. like how it winds me up everytime I see a a high ranking tory or UKIP buffoon on TV declaring Britain is a christian nation upholding christian values..

..excuse me... I'm a 25% genetic jew 75% Scrumpyshire agnostic/atheist humanist punk hippy if you don't mind... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 May 16 - 12:45 PM

The soi-disant Jewish state (which is precisely what it is) is no such thing. It is not a whim to state that a country that is at least a quarter non-Jewish should not be calling itself a Jewish state. It's absolutely clear why it would want to do so: anyone attacking its policies is attacking the Jewish state, therefore attacking Jews. A clear attempt to broaden the definition of antisemitism. Keith, you never have a thought of your own. You think you can prove points by telling us all the time what other people think, whether it's some EU committee, selected historians or Israeli politicians. Well I'm telling you what I think, and I think there is no justification on earth for Israel's calling itself the Jewish state, and I've given you my reason, which you can't refute, as it happens to be a fact. Israel already has a name, Israel. That'll do me. Let me ask you what you'd think if you were a Muslim or a Sikh, or even an ex-Catholic atheist, who happened to have been born in Israel. If you were asked where you came from, would you cheerfully reply "from Israel, the Jewish state, of course!"? A true Jewish state would contain hardly anyone except for Jews. No such country exists. And some of those non-Jews, or their ancestors at least, were living in the area long before it became Israel. All of a sudden, without being consulted, the ones who weren't actually expelled were told they now lived in a Jewish state. You really can't see this, can you?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 May 16 - 12:06 PM

Who has denied the probability of a minority of racists in the labour party ?

But probably far fewer than in the other parties....
and wider society a whole...

I have more than made clear my informed suspicion that any Labour party 'problem' with antisemitism
has been fabricated by 'agencies' outside of the party,
who have lobbed truck loads of mud with the desperate intent that some sticks...

Strategically timed for the recent elections.

Genuine racists within the Labour movement must be identified and dealt with.

.. but of course, if all this is really about the Labour party attracting an influx of new muslim supporters
it's certainly easier for the rabid detractors to accuse Labour of antisemitism
rather than publicly exposing themselves to be islamophobes.... 😣

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 May 16 - 11:52 AM

Could I suggest you cite your sources.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 May 16 - 11:49 AM

Anyone anything to say about the Labour Party and its current problems including antisemitism.

Simple denial is not useful.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 May 16 - 11:25 AM

From your earlier Wiki piece Steve,

"in his book, The Deadliest Lies, Abraham Foxman referred to the notion that the pro-Israel lobby is trying to censor criticism of Israel as a "canard."[85] Foxman writes that the Jewish community is capable of telling the difference between legitimate criticism of Israel "and the demonization, deligitization, and double standards employed against Israel that is either inherently anti-Semitic or generates an environment of anti-Semitism." Jonathan Rosenblum expressed similar thoughts: "Indeed, if there were an Israel lobby, and labeling all criticism of Israel as anti-Semitic were its tactic, the steady drumbeat of criticism of Israel on elite campuses and in the elite press would be the clearest proof of its inefficacy."[86]

Alan Dershowitz wrote that he welcomes "reasoned, contextual and comparative criticism of Israeli policies and actions."[87] If one of the goals of the pro-Israel lobby was to censor criticism of Israel, Dershowitz writes, "it would prove that 'the Lobby' is a lot less powerful than the authors would have us believe."[87] Dershowitz himself, claims to have written several critical pieces on specific Israeli policies.[citation needed] Dershowitz disagrees with those who believe that the media is uncritical of Israel and cites the frequent New York Times editorials and even an editorial in The Jewish Daily Forward against some of Israel's more right of center policies as proof.[citation needed] Dershowitz also denies that any significant, mainstream leader in the American Jewish community equates criticism of Israel with antisemitism

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 May 16 - 11:22 AM

Steve,
And what if I don't agree that Israel should be referred to as "the Jewish state,"

Your whims are irrelevant to the actual facts Steve.

Wiki,
The "Jewish state" is a political term used to describe the nation state of Israel.
Modern Israel came into existence on 14 May 1948 as the homeland for the Jewish people. It was also defined in its declaration of independence as a "Jewish state," a term that appeared in the United Nations partition decision of 1947 as well. The related term "Jewish and democratic state" dates from 1992 legislation by the Israeli Knesset.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 May 16 - 10:56 AM

International politics made easy: more schoolyard analogies...

Little Israel is a spoilt brat rich kid bully protected by even richer, bigger, older bullies.

The UK Labour party is a nice decent thoughtful considerate kid, maybe a bit too much of a do gooder,
who is pen pals with some poor kids who Israel is not friendly with and tends to pick on.
Israel and those poor kids keep getting in tit for tat scraps.

Israel does not like the UK Labour party being too friendly with those poor kids,
so has started to troll internet social media anonymously bullying the Labour party....

This will only end in tears.

Israel needs to be told off and sent to bed early without it's favourite pudding... 😜

[or some more appropriate telling off in the grown up real world....]

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 May 16 - 10:53 AM

Nice one Punkfolkrocker !!!! Very succinctly put.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 May 16 - 10:52 AM

It's like working with a nail in yer boot....

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 May 16 - 10:31 AM

And what if I don't agree that Israel should be referred to as "the Jewish state," knowing as I do that at least a quarter of its citizens are not Jewish and that a good number of the rest do not adhere to the Jewish religion? Keith, the reason that you and Israel refer to Israel as the Jewish state is so that you and they can protest that we're attacking "the Jewish state," when all along we are attacking the Israeli regime's abuses towards the Palestinians. You want us to look antisemitic when we are no such thing. You are trying, dishonestly, to widen the meaning of antisemitism, which can only be attacking Jews BECAUSE THEY ARE JEWS. When we attack the actions of a state, or at least of its regime, we are doing so because we think that they are doing bad things. Not because they are Jewish. We can discuss other states' bad behaviour in a different context. We often do: in the "Rising" thread I attacked the US for its foreign policy abuses. But this thread revolves around questions of antisemitism, therefore it tends to be in large part about Israelis, Jews and people who may seem to oppose them. I don't see why I should have to balance my accusations against the Israeli regime and the Israel lobby by cataloguing the abuses of other nations every time just to keep you happy. You are the first to moan and groan about thread drift, remember? As for holding Israel to different standards, we treat them to a different, more privileged standard, especially in providing massive military aid. I'm saying that that should come with conditions attached. I also think we should stop selling arms to Saudi Arabia, and training their military, until they stop their human rights abuses. If I give a child a toy, only to find that he then uses it to beat his little sister over the head, I won't let him him keep the toy. Are you happy now?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 May 16 - 10:07 AM

This is Keith's thread, it's his football, and he can move the duffel coat and anorak goalposts any where and whenever he likes... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 May 16 - 08:19 AM

"If not because it is the Jewish state, then why?"

In this instance possibly because the thread mentioned anti-Semitism in the first post .............. by yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 May 16 - 08:04 AM

steve,
Your Wikie piece does not support your assertion that "The pro-Israel lobby in America also seeks to widen the definition,(of antisemitism")

My highlighting the "balance" does not change that.

If I criticise Jews BECAUSE THEY ARE JEWS I am antisemitic. If I criticise the actions of a person or a group of people because I think they are perpetrating injustices, I am not.

You are if you ignore worse offenders and always and only criticise Israel.
It means you are singling out Israel, and holding it to a different standard to its neighbours and enemies.

You need to explain why it is not antisemitc to single out Israel for attack while ignoring worse offenders.
If not because it is the Jewish state, then why?

Paul,
More recent occupations.
Tibet. Kashmir. Japanese islands occupied by Russia.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 May 16 - 04:47 AM

I was honest enough not to edit the balance out of that passage, Keith. You have simply chosen to edit the relevant bits out in your head. Your modus operandi, of course. One more thing. I don't give a stuff about what you've dug up from some EU document you keep droning on about. We all know that you can't even read a simple sentence in a newspaper article without wilfully misinterpreting it, so that game isn't worth the candle. If I criticise Jews BECAUSE THEY ARE JEWS I am antisemitic. If I criticise the actions of a person or a group of people because I think they are perpetrating injustices, I am not. Of course, if I use that opinion to denigrate those people BECAUSE THEY ARE JEWS, I may be. But I don't. It's really simple, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 May 16 - 04:20 AM

Ireland 1170 to 1922?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Paul Burke
Date: 09 May 16 - 04:05 AM

"There are many previous and worse example of occupation by other states that are ignored. "

I'm sure you're right Keith. The occupation of South America by the Iberian powers since the 16th century, North America by (notably) the British and French from the seventeenth, and Australia by the British since the eighteenth spring to mind. Though it's possible that you have better examples to share?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 May 16 - 01:44 AM

Steve,
I have told you in very simple terms what antisemitism is, Keith

No. You stated your opinion, and I stated the considered opinion of the 28 states of the European Union which flatly contradicts yours.

Your Wikle piece does not support your assertion that "The pro-Israel lobby in America also seeks to widen the definition,(of antisemitism"

Have you anything else that does?
It does say,"some criticism of Israel really is rooted in anti-Semitism"

Paul,

Because soft handling of "the only Jewish state in the world" has left the west in an impossible position

Nonsense.
There are many previous and worse example of occupation by other states that are ignored.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 08 May 16 - 10:27 PM

Ah yes, Jimmy Carter, the long time anti-Semite and Israel basher bought and paid for by the Saudis to parrot their racist, Jew hating agenda. It is no surprise to see Shaw quoting this despicable, senile old bigot.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 May 16 - 07:40 PM

Just telling me that you don't agree with two of my points, then failing to explain why, is a bit lame in a discussion forum, Keith, don't you think?   I have told you in very simple terms what antisemitism is, Keith. It is disparaging or attacking Jews BECAUSE THEY ARE JEWS. Not because of their politics or what their regime gets up to. It's so simple. People like you and the pro-Israel lobby expend a great deal of energy dishonestly trying to expand that very simple definition. If I say that Jacob Zuma is a prick and that it's regrettable that so many ANC members support him, that does not make me a racist. If I say that Jacob Zuma was bound to fail because he's black, and managed to take so many black people with him, that's racist. Keith, you want a broader definition of antisemitism so that you can then use it to suppress debate about the evils of the Israeli regime, which you unconditionally support no matter what injustices they perpetrate on Palestinians. By the way, Keith, it wasn't my idea to call Israel a Jewish state. One quarter of the people who live in Israel are not Jews. To me, that makes Israel a state with a predominantly Jewish population, but not a Jewish state. To call it that is inaccurate at best and racist at worst. My view is that Israel receives special and privileged treatment from the West, therefore we should expect high standards of behaviour in return. As much of that aid is military, I think we should expect at the very least the quest for peace and security for its own people and for its neighbours, built on a position of strength, precisely the opposite of what actually happens. We can't expect anything as particular from countries that we don't aid in the same way, though we may hold them to certain international standards when it comes to human rights. In other words, Keith, there should be conditions attached to that massive aid. The fact that it doesn't happen in the case of Western aid to Israel is the very reason why, for decades, peace talks involving Israel have been a sham. Israel knows that it can do what it likes but the aid will keep going in. They never need to give a single inch. Now all that is my opinion. If you think a single word of it is antisemitic, you'd better give a clear explanation as to why you think so. And, for a change, let's hear what YOU think, not some higher authority. Think for yourself for a change, Keith. It would be quite refreshing.

Can I support my assertion that the pro-Israel lobby tries to broaden the definition of antisemitism in furtherance of its interests? Why yes, I can. This is from wiki, Keith.

Zunes [Professor of Politics at the University of San Francisco and specialist in Middle East politics] writes that "assaults on critics of Israeli policies have been more successful in limiting open debate, but this gagging censorship effect stems more from ignorance and liberal guilt than from any all-powerful Israel lobby." He goes on to explain that while "some criticism of Israel really is rooted in anti-Semitism", it is his opinion that some members of the Israel lobby cross the line by labeling intellectually honest critics of Israel as antisemitic. Zunes argues that the mainstream and conservative Jewish organizations have "created a climate of intimidation against many who speak out for peace and human rights or who support the Palestinians' right of self-determination." Zunes has been on the receiving end of this criticism himself "As a result of my opposition to US support for the Israeli government's policies of occupation, colonization and repression, I have been deliberately misquoted, subjected to slander and libel, and falsely accused of being "anti-Semitic" and "supporting terrorism"; my children have been harassed and my university's administration has been bombarded with calls for my dismissal."

In an opinion piece for The Guardian, Jimmy Carter wrote that mainstream American politics does not give equal time to the Palestinian side of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and that this is due at least in part to AIPAC. George Soros pointed out that there are risks associated with what was in his opinion a suppression of debate:

"I do not subscribe to the myths propagated by enemies of Israel and I am not blaming Jews for anti-Semitism. Anti-Semitism predates the birth of Israel. Neither Israel's policies nor the critics of those policies should be held responsible for anti-Semitism. At the same time, I do believe that attitudes toward Israel are influenced by Israel's policies, and attitudes toward the Jewish community are influenced by the pro-Israel lobby's success in suppressing divergent views."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Paul Burke
Date: 08 May 16 - 03:22 PM

"Why else would you single out the only Jewish state in the world?"

Because soft handling of "the only Jewish state in the world" has left the west in an impossible position- when Putin invades Ukraine, there's no answer. Israel colonises occupied territories, so why shouldn't Russia?

Because no state should be "Jewish"- it's exactly as bad as being "Muslim" or for that matter "Aryan" and for the same reason. States should be non- religious and non- racist (and avoid other forms of discrimination too) and when they are either it's totally justified to oppose them.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 May 16 - 02:01 PM

"on a sale from 0 - 100...???"....

sale...???

Seing as this is primarily a music website..

...Gimme a 'C'...!!!




Please don't be that shocked... it's not like I asked you to show us all your wedding tackle... 😜


Of course it don't matter... I said that before you did...


.. no big deal either way if we all get our cards out on the table or play with the royals and aces hidden up our sleeves....

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 May 16 - 01:45 PM

That is not antisemitism.

That is your opinion Steve, but I think you are wrong.

. The pro-Israel lobby in America also seeks to widen the definition,
Can you support that assertion?
And, the groups on the EUMC board were not part of any pro-Israel lobby.

its (Israel's)place in the Middle East as the only Western nation there that is propped up by special deals with the West and a huge unconditional subsidy to its military by the US.

No it is not.
You must come up with some other reason to single out the only Jewish state.

we can apply standards we don't expect from nations we don't treat the same way.

EUMC says you are antisemites then Steve.

but the obstinate fact that that criticising Israel for its regime's actions are never antisemitic.

It is if you ignore other regimes with an worse record.
Why else would you single out the only Jewish state in the world?

You have an agenda, Keith, that prevents you from seeing this with any clarity.

Me, and the EU.

Pfr,

I haven't a clue about Keith's degree of jewishness on a sale from 0 - 100...??? 😜

I am a little shocked that you ask.
Is my ethnicity an issue?
(The answer is zero)

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 May 16 - 10:43 AM

PFR -- Yay OK, see what you mean. But I try in the main to avoid sarcasm/irony/whevs: a notoriously double-edged weapon - however bitterly despair-inducing the provocation...

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 May 16 - 08:21 AM

oops.. "Corbyn should have done"

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 May 16 - 08:19 AM

Btw.. Keith - "SPB, Labour has done much worse than previous leading opposition parties in mid term elections, presaging a very low result in the general election.
Labour should have made large gains and the government large losses.
You should also have expected a boost from a new leader, from a government civil war on Europe and a budget that is an ongoing fiasco, yet Labour barely "held on."


..so.. regarding predictions of how well or badly labour lead by Corbyn have done...

At this point in the early 21st Century, the world is such an entirely different mess of complex reactionary conditions...

.. and Corbyn does not exist in a vacuum...

Any sensible observer / participant should be very wary of making predictions...

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 May 16 - 08:08 AM

MGM - sarcasm, counterproductive...???

A sad sense of humour born from despair at the stupidity of human existence....

At least i seem to have stirred you into posting a seriously interesting anecdote founded in your authentic personal historic perspective... 😎




As for Keith and his 'hidden' agenda...

I'm only 25% jew..

I haven't a clue about Keith's degree of jewishness on a sale from 0 - 100...??? 😜


Not that it matters, any misguided fool can side and identify with aims of a hostile repressive ideological regime.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: DMcG
Date: 08 May 16 - 08:05 AM

Well, Keith, of course all Labour supporters would like it to have been better, and one would have to be blinkered not to recognise more needs to be done. But it is worth knowing Conservatives lost twice as many seats as Labour and that if you look at the first set of council elections after Blair and Cameron became leader, Corbyn has done better than either.

As always there are many ways to look at the set of results, but claims it was a disaster are a deliberate careful selection of viewpoint on someone's part.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 May 16 - 05:47 AM

Is never antisemitic, and that wasn't the only glitch. It's the small print.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 May 16 - 05:45 AM

"Richard, I am sure you deny your antisemitism even to yourself, but it was revealed in your post where you accused the EUMC board members, mostly Jewish, of having a "vested interest" in widening the definition of antisemitism to gain more "influence."

That is not antisemitism. The pro-Israel lobby in America also seeks to widen the definition, even though many of its supporters are not Jews. Get it into your skull, Keith: antisemitism is disparaging or attacking Jews BECAUSE THEY ARE JEWS. Attacking Jews for their political stance or machinations is not antisemitism.


There is nothing antisemetic in criticising Israel, unless you hold it to standards not expected of other states.

Israel has a specific responsibility apropos of its place in the Middle East as the only Western nation there that is propped up by special deals with the West and a huge unconditional subsidy to its military by the US. yes we can apply standards we don't expect from nations we don't treat the same way. And Israel itself does not uphold the standards that it purports to expect from its neighbours. We can squabble about that 'til kingdom come, but the obstinate fact that that criticising Israel for its regime's actions are never antisemitic. Attacking Israelis BECAUSE THEY ARE JEWS is antisemitic. You have an agenda, Keith, that prevents you from seeing this with any clarity. And it isn't a very honest agenda either.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 May 16 - 05:04 AM

SPB, Labour has done much worse than previous leading opposition parties in mid term elections, presaging a very low result in the general election.
Labour should have made large gains and the government large losses.
You should also have expected a boost from a new leader, from a government civil war on Europe and a budget that is an ongoing fiasco, yet Labour barely "held on."

It is not an indication of a conspiracy that the media refers to this.

You refer to a hostile press.
Most people do not read papers anymore, and anyway there is a left wing press but few people subscribe to it.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 08 May 16 - 04:13 AM

Well, the election is done and dusted, my feet and legs are recovering, and we won the London Mayor and kept our GLA rep in spite of the stupidity of some of those who, in the public eye, represent the Labour Party, and don't know when to shut up.

The media in the UK is so screwed and biased that all it takes is Labour representatives to say one word out of place they pounce upon it, sidelining the real issues that are impacting on people's lives day by day - Vilification of people with disabilities and long-term conditions, housing (particularly private rented, and attacks on social rented sector), NHS (pushing Junior Doctors to take industrial action), reductions on front-line local services, etc etc. Virtually all the things that matter ignored in the run-up.

Labour has a lot to do. We have a government that sneers at scrutiny, and hostile press. Our membership of EU is under threat - a threat that is led by those who do not want to be fettered by a consensus obligation towards social responsibility.

Anyway, I need a break from campaigning for a week or two.


We

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 May 16 - 04:12 AM

An observation for attention of PFR -- Heavy sarcasm is usually counterproductive.

This pertinacious drift has reminded me of a conversation with my father in my teens, soon after the 1948 declaration of the state of Israel. He was an influential longtime political Zionist — back when that term simply applied to a specific political movement with specific aims & had not yet acquired its, comparatively recent, highly pejorative overtone of aggressive nationalism.

"You will have to realise" I said "that the Arabs are your Red Indians" (another term one could use then but now for some idiotic reason tabu & non-pc). "Nonsense," he replied, "they are nothing of the sort."

But I thought, and still think, I was right. One analogy -- settlements established where treaty agreements have previously stated that they wouldn't.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 May 16 - 04:02 AM

PFR, no government is above criticism.
Unlike many countries including its neighbours, Israel allows dissent and criticism of its government in its free media and parliament.

There is nothing antisemetic in criticising Israel, unless you hold it to standards not expected of other states.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Paul Burke
Date: 08 May 16 - 03:51 AM

So let's make a few important points:

(1) There is antisemitism in the Labour Party
)2) It ought not to be there, and has been allowed to creep in through laziness and political opportunism.
(3) It is no more prevalent than in society in general - it ought to be much less prevalent because members should be more aware.
(4) It is not confined to Corbyn supporters
(5) Criticism of Israel is not necessarily antisemitic (it can be), and no community can be immune from criticism.
(6) Many Jews are not zionist - now and historically. They are not antisemitic either.
(7) To claim special status for any so- called racial group- whether negatively or positively- is racism
(8) If you justify any form of racism, you implicitly justify all - including against youself. Racism is indivisible.
(9) Remember that there is a powerful force operating in politics- spin. This "antisemitism" episode bears all the marks of a political ambush, in its timing and biased application. It's a bad idea to tie important principles to ephemeral events.

I would have thought it unnecessary to emphasise these points, but some people seem determined to try to make the issue simplistic. You will also note that the term "racism" is too restrictive, and we really need a different word to cover the whole complex of religion, ethnic history, DNA heritage, and cultural tradition. For example, Muslim Bosniacs are genetically indistinguishable from Christian Serbs. The only difference is their ancestors' cultural response to the 15th centuray OIttoman invasion.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 May 16 - 02:59 AM

So basically then, everyone is 'antisemitic' to some extent
unless they publicly declare they agree the israeli govt & military regime are absolutely brilliant and the best regime ever...!!!??????? 😕


Btw... ever since i was a teenager, I've been extremely wary of, if not absolutely despised,
people who rely on the "if your're not with us, you're against us" mentality of belligerent cohersive argument... 😣

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 May 16 - 02:01 AM

Richard, I am sure you deny your antisemitism even to yourself, but it was revealed in your post where you accused the EUMC board members, mostly Jewish, of having a "vested interest" in widening the definition of antisemitism to gain more "influence."

Livingstone and others also deny their antisemitism, but there it is.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 May 16 - 07:56 PM

It is fairly silly to suggest that only Jews or Zionists should define Zionism.

It is also fairly silly to suggest that there is any more than a microscopic amount of antisemitism in the Labour party.

What is pretty obvious though is that a cry of "antisemite" goes up when anyone tries to defend the inhabitants (for about 2,000 years) of lands now claimed by the Israeli state from Israeli brutality. Those inhabitants try to defend themselves with sticks and stones while the IDF have F16s white phosphorus and if push comes to shove nuclear weapons.

On the other hand, the conservatives have been a byword for racism of all types for decades, at least since Enoch Powell, and still are judging by the attacks on Sadiq Kahn orchestrated by the Lizard of Oz.

Now the next thing is the MSM. the BBC in general, Kuenssberg in particular, and even papers that are purportedly left of centre have been consistently recycling conservative or bitterite propaganda for months (one example of which has been the "antisemitism" campaign). Despite this and however you spin it JC has done great things and True Labour now has an impressive slate, starting with four mayors, with fewer council seat losses than the con-servatives, a crushing majority in the London Assembly, and a respectable second place in Wales. Scotland will have to wait - the Blairities did so much damage up there that it may take years to heal. Imagine what could be done with fair media (or an effective new media platform).

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 May 16 - 07:37 PM

You have to play the game to an extent, Paul. I have a feeling that a large number of my posts irritate the mods but not quite sufficiently enough. Lately, Joe has developed this thing about being "on-topic," as if we've ever managed to achieve that around here ever. 😂 That gives the mods the excuse to zap us unpopular types - unless, of course, we manage to sneak some on-topic point into our invective. Also, it's a very good idea to say "your point is disappointingly disingenuous and relatively remote from the truth" rather than "you're a bloody liar." That helps. I fear that more hints and tips from me at this juncture would only get up the mods' noses, so I'll desist for now. Suffice to say that I agree that antisemitism is not peculiar to Labour, in fact I think that there's far less of it writ large than the pro-Israel camp would have us believe. If you want to see antisemitism embedded, look no further than the Catholic Church, which has a lot to answer for when we look at the history of antisemitism over the last two ot three hundred years or more. They make today's Labour Party look like a collection of benign fluffy bunnies by comparison. Thankfully, the Church is successfully addressing the issue these days, not before time.

Let's see if this one survives...

You see, Paul? Annoying, but on-topic!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Paul Burke
Date: 07 May 16 - 07:09 PM

Reely Weered: Steve Shaw take notice> I posted to thios thread, a fairly innocuous thing about antrisemtism not being peculiar to Labour, and bugger me it ain't here any more. Someone with An Agenda is "moderating" this forum (not surprising, since if I ndon't sign in IU get barred). The arseholes are in charge here!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 May 16 - 02:27 PM

Bobad under both his name and his anonymous alter ego has attacked and sniped at me and many others for years, Keith, including calling me a Jew-hater. I note your deafening silence when that happens. I don't call you a hypocrite, but you sometimes sound awfully like one.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 07 May 16 - 01:46 PM

"Like too many Jewish Londoners, I know from personal experience how it feels to be discriminated against because of your faith. Shamefully, anti-Semitism and Islamophobia are both on the rise in London. Synagogues have to hire private security guards – as do Jewish schools. It's simply not acceptable that this is happening in 21st century London." -- SADIQ KHAN

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 16 - 01:12 PM

Steve,
Keith, I will choose what points I want to address and what points I want to shut up about.

And I can not stop you Steve, but I will still remind you when you break the rules by attacking the person instead of the issues they raise.
You have continued your personal attacks on Bobad.
Please stop.

Re the issue of antisemitism and the left, this Labour supporting Jew has some thoughtful comments.
Here is an extract, but please read her whole piece.

"There is principled opposition to Israeli policy on the Left. But there is also group-think, bald anti-Semitism – calling Jews Nazis; claiming Jews control the media; calling for Israel, in any form, to be destroyed as a legitimate state – and terrible ignorance, as Ken Livingstone displayed on Thursday.

The intensity of the loathing for Israel – the Jewish state – in parts of the far Left is curious. Where is the similar loathing for hosts of countries who observe no human rights whatsoever, including Israel's Arab neighbours? Say this and you will be accused of changing the subject.

It does not answer the question. To answer the question, you must travel to early Christian Europe: to the Christ-killing. When does anti-Zionism become anti-Semitism? For me, when you call Israel an 'illegitimate state'. I would love to know if Jeremy Corbyn believes, like Naz Shah, that Israel should not exist."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/labours-anti-semitism-problem-should-sicken-any-voter---includin/

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 May 16 - 11:45 AM

well... London backfired on the tories aggressive divide and rule race campaign strategies... 😀

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: DMcG
Date: 07 May 16 - 02:44 AM

"One can no more separate it from Judaism than separate the City of London from Great Britain"

I'm not sure you appreciate are many people who strongly support Great Britain but think the City of London is a major problem for the country.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 May 16 - 07:43 PM

Beware of the troll, pfr. Engage him and you're on a hiding to nothing, believe me. He's been playing us along for ages, but has only now been forced out of the woodwork by the new members-only rule. Until Max changed the rule, you didn't see bobad in these threads, just the vile anonymous Guest. Funny that he's suddenly crawled out, now that he can't be a Guest any more, innit?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 06 May 16 - 07:31 PM

the worst problem with extremist zealots is they don't care who gets caught in the cross fire or is torn apart by shrapnel...

By extremist zealots I presume you are referring to Islamist terrorists like Hamas, Hezbollah, IS, Al Qaeda etc. I would have to agree with you on that.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 May 16 - 07:07 PM

Bobad - the worst problem with extremist zealots is they don't care who gets caught in the cross fire or is torn apart by shrapnel...

At least mudcat single-issue religious/political zealots are only trying to bore us to death... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 May 16 - 06:50 PM

That was to bobad, aka anonymous Guest-coward, by the way.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 May 16 - 06:48 PM

Absolute blinkered rubbish. Zionism and faith-based Judaism have nothing whatsoever to do with each other. Why, "Zionists" can't even agree among themselves what "Zionism" actually means. And please don't assume that "non-Jews" are always totally blind as to what goes on. We are just as capable as watching and reading the news and looking up sources as anyone else. As ever, your post is full of bilious, hateful nonsense. And I note that you have failed to deny that you were the troll-Guest who called us Jew-haters. Cor, I'll bet you're dying to call us that again, aren't you. But what a giveaway that would be, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 May 16 - 06:36 PM

If I can be bothered googling, it's not to find out anyone's religion or race,
but to trust my own judgement to consider if they are reactionary right wing arseholes or not.

Whether they be under educated brutal street thugs, or upper class academic tossers in ivory towers..

A right wing arsehole, is a right wing arsehole..... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 06 May 16 - 03:53 PM

If you think this is astonishing, hang around at Mudcat for a while and you will not only see Zionism defined by non Jews but antisemitism as well. This the regressive Left justifying their bigotry.

"It is astonishing to see figures on the hard Left of the British political spectrum presuming to define the relationship between Judaism and Zionism despite themselves being neither Jews nor Zionists. The likes of Ken Livingstone and Malia Boattia claim that Zionism is separate from Judaism as a faith; that it is purely political; that it is expansionist, colonialist and imperialist.

It is unclear why these people feel qualified to provide such an analysis of one of the axioms of Jewish belief. But let me be very clear. Their claims are a fiction. They are a wilful distortion of a noble and integral part of Judaism. Zionism is a belief in the right to Jewish self-determination in a land that has been at the centre of the Jewish world for more than 3,000 years. One can no more separate it from Judaism than separate the City of London from Great Britain."

Ken Livingstone and the hard Left are spreading the insidious virus of anti-Semitism: The Telegraph

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 06 May 16 - 03:35 PM

This was posted by my friend Fred Maroun, an Arab originally from Lebanon (for those who are Googling to see if he is a Jew in order to discredit him). Fred is an unapologetic supporter of Israel.

"This is heart-wrenching real-life story that says volumes about what is going on in the world today while the world's leaders look elsewhere - a growing and blind hatred that uses Israel to revive old anti-Semitisms. Please read this ESPECIALLY if you are not Jewish."

On becoming un-assimilated

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 16 - 09:44 AM

"He merges a paste from wiki with his own text with no quotes or accreditation."
I had considered asking this to be removed, but after thought, perhaps it is better that it remains where it is as an example of Keith's dishonest and underhand behaviour towards other members of this thread.
It has not place here and should have been brought up on the relevant thread where it could have been easily dealt with.
I do feel that Keith owes an apology to contributors to this thread, but I don't believe for one minute they will get it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 May 16 - 09:05 AM

Keith, I will choose what points I want to address and what points I want to shut up about. You do not get to dictate that to me or anyone else. I have better things to do than walk into your silly booby traps. Bobad, together with his anonymous alter ego, is a long-standing troll here, as he has ably demonstrated in this thread. Were I to be an Israeli citizen I would absolutely hate to think that people like him were "on my side." Jim is spot on when he describes the attitudes of people like him as antisemitic. People in power who are like him simply put Jewish people, especially the ones in Israel, in harm's way. They are certainly not angling for the peace and security that the Jewish people and all the other people in the Middle East deserve.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 16 - 07:27 AM

"Jim, I stand by my description of your post."
And I stand behind by my description of your behaviour - this has no place here - you want to make it on the relevant thread where I can treat it with the contempt it deserves, feel free - not behind my back elsewhere
You behaviour is beyond description
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 May 16 - 06:54 AM

Jim, I stand by my description of your post.
Do you deny that you merged a Wiki paste with your own text without quotes or accreditation?
If you do you are revealed as a liar.

Richard, you have chosen not to defend what appears to be an antisemitic claim that those board members had a "vested interest" in broadening the definition of antisemitism to gain more "influence."

Such a statement would lead to your expulsion from Labour if you were a member.

Richard,
hates the fact that the Times of Israel exposes that the EUMC definition has been discarded

I think that is just me.
I do not hate the fact of ToI report, I just point out that there has been no change to reflect that on the EUMC site.

If it has been discarded, how would anyone know?
Few read the ToI after all.
I don't.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 16 - 06:05 AM

"He merges a paste from wiki with his own text with no quotes or accreditation."
I had considered asking this to be removed, but after thought, perhaps it is better that it remains where it is as an example of Keith's dishonest and underhand behaviour towards other members of this thread.
It has not place here and should have been brought up on the relevant thread where it could have been easily dealt with.
I do feel that Keith owes an apology to contributors to this thread, but I don't believe for one minute they will get it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 16 - 05:52 AM

Ken Livingstone displays his ignorance of history and his antisemitism by once again repeating that Hitler supported Zionism"
The bit from the article in The Irish Times you choose to ignore.
While Livingston e in sot entirely correct, there is a degree f substance to his statement.

"The calls for his expulsion came after Livingstone said in a BBC interview that Hitler had supported Zionism "before he went mad and ended up killing six million Jews". The claim itself was clumsy but based on historical fact - Hitler originally sought to expel rather than exterminate European Jews. As part of this, he negotiated the Haavara Agreement with Zionist organisations which allowed some Jews to escape to Palestine with some of their property in return for Zionist opposition to the global boycott of German goods. This was hardly "support for Zionism", but Livingstone's critics went further with fellow Labour MPs accusing him of anti-Semitism."

"blaming Israel for IS attacks in Europe and the mass expulsion of Jews from the Arab world."
Making any criticism of Israel "Antisemitic" is not only responsible for these actions, but it has contributed to the disturbing rise in Antisemitism in the world today.
If Israel says that the Jewish people were responsible for facilitating Sabra/Shatila, or the massacres of civilians and destruction of Gaza, it's hardly surprising that some people are going to believe them.
If Israel's demands that the International Criminal Court be closed down are successful it is going to be very difficult to bring groups like Isis to justice.
Israel's cowardice in heaping their crimes on the heads of the Jewish people as a whole have painted targets on all Jews.
You have been part of this Bobad, in your continual accusing those who criticise Israel as hating Jews - you continue to target the Jewish people.
Jim Carroll
A reminder of some "self-hating Jews"
Holocaust survivors

http://www.rense.com/general59/ein.htm

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 16 - 05:52 AM

Ken Livingstone displays his ignorance of history and his antisemitism by once again repeating that Hitler supported Zionism"
The bit from the article in The Irish Times you choose to ignore.
While Livingston e in sot entirely correct, there is a degree f substance to his statement.

"The calls for his expulsion came after Livingstone said in a BBC interview that Hitler had supported Zionism "before he went mad and ended up killing six million Jews". The claim itself was clumsy but based on historical fact - Hitler originally sought to expel rather than exterminate European Jews. As part of this, he negotiated the Haavara Agreement with Zionist organisations which allowed some Jews to escape to Palestine with some of their property in return for Zionist opposition to the global boycott of German goods. This was hardly "support for Zionism", but Livingstone's critics went further with fellow Labour MPs accusing him of anti-Semitism."

"blaming Israel for IS attacks in Europe and the mass expulsion of Jews from the Arab world."
Making any criticism of Israel "Antisemitic" is not only responsible for these actions, but it has contributed to the disturbing rise in Antisemitism in the world today.
If Israel says that the Jewish people were responsible for facilitating Sabra/Shatila, or the massacres of civilians and destruction of Gaza, it's hardly surprising that some people are going to believe them.
If Israel's demands that the International Criminal Court be closed down are successful it is going to be very difficult to bring groups like Isis to justice.
Israel's cowardice in heaping their crimes on the heads of the Jewish people as a whole have painted targets on all Jews.
You have been part of this Bobad, in your continual accusing those who criticise Israel as hating Jews - you continue to target the Jewish people.
Jim Carroll
A reminder of some "self-hating Jews"
Holocaust survivors

http://www.rense.com/general59/ein.htm

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 May 16 - 05:48 AM

Wonderful irony - the tag team here, the one that supports Israel's expansionism and oppression of others - hates the fact that the Times of Israel exposes that the EUMC definition has been discarded - but loves it when the same newspaper supports baseless allegations of antisemitism (for example those against Jackie Walker - not my late wife of the same name, obvs, but a lifelong antiracist).

In the meantime, in the elections, Labour is doing FAR better than the fash, the MSM, the con-servatives, the bitterites and fellow travellers predicted.

Remember "Jeremy Corbyn must resign if Labour loses 200 seats (or 150 seats)"? Looks like Labour will lose 50 seats or fewer, and the bellwether seats in the UK (for example Crawley) show significant swings to Labour.

I'd prefer to wipe the con-servatives out (although I have no AK47, so I speak figuratively or electorally) but this looks very like steady true Labour progress under a true and honest man. This may well accelerate when the battlebus prosecutions really bite.

Must go and rest - I have strep throat again and it was NOT a good night. Back on the prescribed Class As.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 16 - 05:27 AM

Ken Livingstone displays his ignorance of history and his antisemitism by once again repeating that Hitler supported Zionism"
The bit from the article in The Irish Times you choose to ignore.
While Livingston e in sot entirely correct, there is a degree f substance to his statement.

"The calls for his expulsion came after Livingstone said in a BBC interview that Hitler had supported Zionism "before he went mad and ended up killing six million Jews". The claim itself was clumsy but based on historical fact - Hitler originally sought to expel rather than exterminate European Jews. As part of this, he negotiated the Haavara Agreement with Zionist organisations which allowed some Jews to escape to Palestine with some of their property in return for Zionist opposition to the global boycott of German goods. This was hardly "support for Zionism", but Livingstone's critics went further with fellow Labour MPs accusing him of anti-Semitism."

"blaming Israel for IS attacks in Europe and the mass expulsion of Jews from the Arab world."
Making any criticism of Israel "Antisemitic" is not only responsible for these actions, but it has contributed to the disturbing rise in Antisemitism in the world today.
If Israel says that the Jewish people were responsible for facilitating Sabra/Shatila, or the massacres of civilians and destruction of Gaza, it's hardly surprising that some people are going to believe them.
If Israel's demands that the International Criminal Court be closed down are successful it is going to be very difficult to bring groups like Isis to justice.
Israel's cowardice in heaping their crimes on the heads of the Jewish people as a whole have painted targets on all Jews.
You have been part of this Bobad, in your continual accusing those who criticise Israel as hating Jews - you continue to target the Jewish people.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 May 16 - 04:59 AM

Steve, just answer his points if you can.
You can not silence anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 May 16 - 04:59 AM

Steve, just answer his points if you can.
You can not silence anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 May 16 - 05:16 PM

Yeah,sure. You're sussed. A period of silence from you would be nice. How about five years, Guest?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 05 May 16 - 04:37 PM

Ken Livingstone displays his ignorance of history and his antisemitism by once again repeating that Hitler supported Zionism, and blaming Israel for IS attacks in Europe and the mass expulsion of Jews from the Arab world.

The Times of Israel

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 May 16 - 04:06 PM

Keith, bobad calls people Jew haters. Open your eyes, please. No-one is picking on him. Just look at his posts in this thread. Bobad/Guest picks on anyone who even remotely criticises Israel or defends Palestinians. That is not debate, Keith. As I said, knowing you, it's hardly surprising that you side with him.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 May 16 - 04:01 PM

The issue was mentioned in my previous post. Perhaps if you didn't try and twist other people words we wouldn't have this problem. The ball in this case is firmly in your court.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 16 - 03:14 PM

More personal attack without reference to the issues.
Please stop.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 May 16 - 03:04 PM

Are you really THAT thick ??

Don't bother to answer we already know the answer.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 16 - 03:01 PM

Rag,
How can you equate one person saying "And the vested interest of the members of that board" to someone saying "those Jews"

Because thes are the groups that comprise the board.
All Jewish except the first one.

INTER-PARLIAMENTARY COALITION FOR COMBATING ANTISEMITISM        

EUROPEAN JEWISH CONGRESS

B'NAI BRITH INTERNATIONAL        

CEJI – A JEWISH CONTRIBUTION TO AN INCLUSIVE EUROPE

Richard said,
"And the vested interest of the members of that board is that the the wider the definition of antisemitism, the more influence they can gain."

What vested interest could the non-Jewish group have?
None.
He was accusing those Jewish groups of using the board to increase Jewish influence.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 16 - 02:50 PM

Steve, look at this post of Jim's.

Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 30 Apr 16 - 03:38 AM

He merges a paste from wiki with his own text with no quotes or accreditation.

Why pick on Bobad?

He is using quotes to argue his case on the issues.
He does not make personal accusations against anyone.
Please stop doing it yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 May 16 - 02:47 PM

Do you ever wonder professor why many people on this site have such a low opinion of you.

How can you equate one person saying "And the vested interest of the members of that board" to someone saying "those Jews"

Shhhhhhhhhheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesh

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 May 16 - 02:38 PM

Bobad/anonymous ex-Guest does not "discuss issues," Keith. He copies and pastes and he snipes. If you disagree, give me an example of his "discussing issues," please. I'm not exactly surprised that you ally yourself with him, by the way. Speaks volumes, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 16 - 02:28 PM

EUMC should not leave it on their site if it is not in force.
What was your point about some "Zionist" site?

Why are you and Steve making this personal against Bobad?
Can we not just discuss the issues like he does?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 16 - 02:10 PM

"It also remains on the EUMC "
Don't get your point
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 16 - 02:08 PM

Steve

I didn't see Richard saying "those Jews" - did you, Keith?

He said, "And the vested interest of the members of that board ..."

The board was made up of Jewish groups.
Those were the Jews he said were using it for "more influence."

Jim,
"It remains on display on the current Zionism on line site"

Does it?
It also remains on the EUMC site, which suggests it is still current.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 May 16 - 10:40 AM

From his posts

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 May 16 - 10:22 AM

Those are not the words of bobad. Google any selection from his post and you'll find that he's copied and pasted stuff from all over the place with just a bit of light editing. He has form, both as bobad and as the anonymous former guest who plagued any thread remotely connected to Israel/Palestine/Islam with bigotry and slurs. It's either copy and pasting a load of stuff or else it's the kind of sniping we've seen from him in this thread. The style, the content and the modus operandi are exactly the same.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 16 - 09:43 AM

David Hirsch is an activist for Israeli policy, particicularly opposing the boycott of Israeli goods)
"But there is antisemitism on the left"
All those points have been answered and have nothing to do with The Left, which basically adherse to an anti-racist policy (exceptions to every shade of political opinion, of course)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 05 May 16 - 09:09 AM

this current crisis is a storm, manufactured by pro Israeli Government regime supporters, to silence criticism of Israel and to benefit the Tories.

David Hirsh (born 29 September 1967) is a Lecturer in Sociology at Goldsmiths College, University of London, and the founder of Engage, a campaign against academic boycotts of Israel.[1]

Hirsh is a graduate of City University, London. He holds an M.A. in Philosophy and Social Theory and a PhD from University of Warwick. He wrote his dissertation on Crimes Against Humanity and International Law.[2]

Hirsh won the Philip Abrams Prize for the best first book in sociology from the British Sociological Association in 2004 for his book Law Against Genocide: Cosmopolitan trials. The book, an argument concerning the significance of "cosmopolitan law", also contains a full account of the trial of Anthony Sawoniuk in Britain in 1999 for crimes committed as part of the Holocaust in Belarus in 1942.

As a student of contemporary antisemitism, Hirsh is known for coining the term "Livingstone Formulation," after its effective use by the mayor of London, Ken Livingstone. In Hirsh's formulation, when an individual like Livingstone, with alleged antisemitic attitudes is confronted with this allegation, he immediately reverses the charge, accusing his accuser of "playing the antisemitic card" to stifle debate

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 May 16 - 08:55 AM

First of all - I haven't a clue who David Hirsh is - and why should I... ???.

Secondly it's not clear if any of that is you talking Bobad, or if it's entirely the words of Hirsh.

But most significantly, it actually serves to deepen my suspicions that
" this current crisis is a storm, manufactured by pro Israeli Government regime supporters, to silence criticism of Israel and to benefit the Tories.


It's seriously wrong that a bunch of organized vociferous intellectual pro Israeli zealots
may be so maliciously intent on discrediting and punishing the UK Labour Party.
Not giving a shit about the callous harm that will be caused to many thousands of ordinary hard pressed hard up Labour voting families....

Right I'll be away for the rest of the day taking my elderly mum to see a Doctor at an provincial health centre,
which is under resourced and under staffed, and at near crisis breaking point.
I expect we will be queuing for some time.

Not that the Baroness and Mr Hirsh probably care that much for our day to day living conditions.... 😫

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 05 May 16 - 08:02 AM

But there is antisemitism on the left. The campaign to exclude Israelis, and only Israelis, from the global academic, sporting, artistic and economic community is antisemitic. It singles out Israel for unique punishment and it finds all Israelis, and the Jews who are said to support them, guilty of the crimes, real or imagined, of their state. Huge and emotional hostility to Israel creates antisemitic discourse and fosters an institutional antisemitism of norms and practices in the left. This has been manifested recently in a number of clear examples.

    The election to leader of the Labour Party of Jeremy Corbyn:

       Presented a show on Press TV, Iran's antisemitic propaganda channel.
       Was Patron of the "Palestine Solidarity Campaign" which fights for a boycott of Israel and which tolerates antisemitism within its ranks.
       Says that Hamas and Hezbollah are dedicated to the good of the Palestinian people and to social and political justice.
       Jumped to the defence of antisemites, Raed Salah who indulged in medieval blood libel and Stephen Sizer who said that Israel was behind 9/11.
       Does not say anything when a 911 truther and associate of David Duke, who he's sharing a platform with, defends Palestinian suicide bombing.
       Continued to support "Deir Yassin Remembered" even when it was well known that it was run by a Holocaust Denier.
       Agreed to speak alongside Carlos Latuff, 2nd prize winner in Ahmadinejad's Holocaust denial cartoon competition.
       Agreed to speak alongside Azzam Tamimi, who said that he'd like to have been a suicide bomber against Israel.
       Addressed a LaRouche front organisation in Australia.
       Called for an official inquiry into "pro-Israel" influence in the Foreign Office.
       Celebrated the anniversary of the Iranian revolution at an event called to "commemorate the auspicious anniversary of the victory of the Islamic Revolution in Iran".

    Norman Finkelstein's cartoon depicting the ethnic cleansing of Israel and the 'transportation' of all Jews there to America was shared on Facebook by Naz Shah, who was to become a Labour MP and also by a number of Labour councillors including Blackburn mayor Salim Mulla, who also said that Israel was behind ISIS, and Ilyas Aziz who also posted images appearing to call for Jews to "stop drinking Gaza blood".

    Ken Livingstone:

       Said that Hitler supported Zionism. What better way to bait Jews than to compare them to Nazis?
       In 1982 the paper that Livingstone edited ran a cartoon depicting the Prime Minister of Israel, Menachem Begin, wearing a Nazi uniform and doing a straight-arm salute, standing on a pile of skulls.
       Hosted Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi at City Hall. Qaradawi says that Hitler put the Jews in their place; he described the Holocaust as both exaggerated and also as divine punishment.
       On March 21 2012, a group of Jewish Labour supporters reported that at "various points in the discussion Ken used the words 'Zionist', 'Jewish' and 'Israeli', interchangeably, as if they meant the same, and did so in a pejorative manner." Livingstone told the group that Jews are rich and so are not likely anyway to vote Labour.
       Ken Livingstone was paid to present a programme on Iran's antisemitic propaganda channel, Press TV.
       Persistently put down a Jewish journalist by accusing him of being like a German war criminal.
    A co-chair of Oxford University Labour Club resigned, saying that a 'large proportion' of members had 'some kind of problem with Jews'. Jews were belittled by the epithet 'Zios' and taunted by the song: 'Bombs over Tel Aviv'.
    The election of Malia Bouattia as President of NUS. She supports the campaign of murder against Jewish civilians in Israel. She refers to a university with a strong Jewish society is a 'Zionist outpost'. She talks about "mainstream Zionist-led media outlets". She supports a boycott of Israel but of nowhere else.
    John Mann, Chair of the All-Party Group against Antisemitism: "I've had a number of highly precise threats of violence. I'm going to report this to the police. They are threatening me with physical assault — 'when I see you I will be punching you' and worse than that. This shows the mind-set of the mob."
    Muhammed Butt, who is the Lead for Equalities at London Councils, shared a clip on social media that appeared to show a young girl from the Palestinian Authority in a conflict with an Israeli soldier. The clip was captioned at the bottom with the words, "Israel is a terrorist state like ISIS."
    Shah Hussain, a Labour councillor in Burnley, tweeted at Israeli footballer Yossi Benayoun: "you are a complete and utter plonker, you and your country doing the same thing Hitler did to ur race in ww2".
    Khadim Hussain, a Labour councillor and a former Lord Mayor of Bradford, resigned from the party after sharing a Facebook post that said: "Your school education system only tells you about Anne Frank and the six million Zionists that were killed by Hitler."
    John McAuliffe: "The Holocaust has been the most useful political tool of the Zionist government in Israel to establish a financial racket in the West, whereby Israel receives an unlimited sum for the duration of its existence."
    Gerry Downing called for Marxists to 'address the Jewish question'.
    In 2011, Labour MP Sir Gerald Kaufman turned to a neighbour on the Commons benches as pro-Israel MP Louise Ellman rose to speak and muttered: 'Here we are, the Jews again'. He has a record of talking about the influence of 'Jewish millionaires' in UK politics and how the Israeli government exploits Holocaust guilt as justification for their murder of Palestinians.
    In 2014, Vicki Kirby, a Labour Parliamentary candidate, was warned by the party for posting antisemitic tweets. 'We invented Israel when saving them from Hitler, who now seems to be their teacher,' she wrote. She also asked why ISIS was not attacking the 'real oppressor', 'evil' Israel. She also tweeted that Jews have "big noses" and "slaughter the oppressed".
    In 2011 Labour MP Paul Flynn had said that Matthew Gould, Britain's first Jewish ambassador to Israel, had "divided loyalties".
    In 2003, Tam Dalyell, accused the Prime Minister Tony Blair of "being unduly influenced by a cabal of Jewish advisers".
    There are press reports that Labour has secretly suspended fifty more Labour members for issues connected with antisemitism.
    Labour's Murad Qureshi, who has already served 12 years on the London Assembly, re-tweeted the claim that Katie Hopkins "is proof positive you can get away with deeply offending anyone in this country as long as they're not Jewish."

It is wrong to say that there is no antisemitism in the Labour Party, and that this current crisis is a storm, manufactured by Jews, to silence criticism of Israel and to benefit the Tories.

These are not random bad apples in a Labour barrel. They are important because they are manifestations of a way that many people, including the leader, thinks about Israel and the Jews who relate to Israel.

David Hirsh

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 16 - 07:12 AM

The Israeli Embassy in Ireland had been systematically targeting critics of Israel, on occasion, reaching the level of hysteria following particularly vicious acts of atrocity by its regime.
They have gleefully jumped on the Anti-Labour bandwagon and Israeli are now mounting a campaign to debunk Landin and Ronin's relatively non-confrontational article.
This interesting letter appeared in the Irish Times this morning:

Criticism of Israel v anti-Semitism
Sir, - The current crisis facing the Labour Party in the UK over Ken Livingstone's comments have brought anti-Semitism into focus.
In this light, the piece by David Landy and Ronit Lentin (Opinion, May 2nd) is a timely insight into the lengths the Israeli state will go to in order to tarnish critics of its policies.
Europe has a troubled record on anti-Semitism and thus it is vital that, on any occasion it manifests itself, it needs to be dealt with abruptly and forcibly. However the accusation of anti-Semitism, when abused, is a powerful one which can ruin a career and render solid arguments impotent.
In recent times the Israeli government and its supporters, under pressure from the success of the BDS (boycotts, divestment and sanctions) movement, have begun to throw the accusation of anti-Semitism liberally at anybody who dares question its policies and stands up for justice for the Palestinian people. Not only does this apply to non-Jews but also to the many Jews who are vocal critics of the Israeli state, such as the noted US academic Norman Finkelstein who lost many family members in the concentration camps.
This is a dangerous precedent as it not only diminishes the fight against anti-Semitism but also undermines rational arguments for a just and peaceful solution to the ongoing Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
There is a serious vacuum in the peace process into which extremism is rushing on both sides. Creating an atmosphere whereby critical analysis of the behaviour of the Israeli state is subject to accusations of anti-Semitism does nothing to help find a secure future for Israel or Palestine.
-Yours, etc,
BARRY WALSH, Blackrock, Cork.

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 May 16 - 06:44 AM

So it's ok and acceptable then to admire and promote the Baroness's smug dismissive disparaging prejudiced sweeping statements about 'the left'...

..whilst sweeping negative published statements putting down any other whole classification of diverse people
can justifiably get the culprit in a huge mess of trouble and condemnation in the news media....?????? 😕

funny old world... innit... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 May 16 - 06:00 AM

"Are you saying that those Jews used the board as a means to gain more influence for Jews?
Is there a problem with Jews having too much influence?"

I didn't see Richard saying "those Jews" - did you, Keith? Would it have helped had he said "those representatives of Israel's interests" or "those who were pro-Israel?" Your manner of debate is disingenuous and dishonest.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 16 - 05:15 AM

"I would point out that I have never done any such thing."
Worse than that
"Richard, if it was dropped three years ago, why is it still on the website unchanged?
"It remains on display on the current Zionism on line site" and that aspect of the defintion has never been challenged.
Israel claims there is no currently accepted official definition of Antisemitism so blaming the Jews for Israeli terrorism seems a pretty fair one as a rule of thumb.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 16 - 05:05 AM

And I'd point out that you frequently discount any opinion expressed by an Arab or Muslim merely because they are Arabs or Muslims -

I would point out that I have never done any such thing.


And the vested interest of the members of that board is that the the wider the definition of antisemitism, the more influence they can gain.

Are you saying that those Jews used the board as a means to gain more influence for Jews?
Is there a problem with Jews having too much influence?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 May 16 - 04:59 AM

Can you not read, Keith - "Oh, and, Keith, you like the Times of Israel, don't you? Here they report that the definition that you like (despite its obvious flaws) was dropped in 2013. http://www.timesofisrael.com/eu-drops-its-working-definition-of-anti-semitism/"

And the vested interest of the members of that board is that the the wider the definition of antisemitism, the more influence they can gain. It's not rocket science. And I'd point out that you frequently discount any opinion expressed by an Arab or Muslim merely because they are Arabs or Muslims - or even seek to defend Arabs or Muslims. It is you who is a racist.

As to offensive behaviour - I repeat - http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Politics-And-Diplomacy/IDF-general-in-bombshell-speech-Israel-today-shows-signs-of-1930s-Germany-453142?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 May 16 - 04:48 AM

I don't care really, Keith. My view is that it is wrong-headed and unconstructive in the extreme to say that Israel is acting like Nazi Germany, basically because it isn't, and because the remark is likely to inflame. It is fairly likely to be said by someone who has antisemitic sentiments, but it is in itself antisemitic only if the context of the remark is that Israel acts that way because Israelis are Jews. Antisemitic means anti-Jew, not anti-what politicians happen to decide to do. That's my opinion, Keith, along with the reasoning. As ever, your opinion is not your own but that of a higher authority to whom you're appealing.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 16 - 04:15 AM

Richard, if it was dropped three years ago, why is it still on the website unchanged?

All have a vested interest in an over-broad definition (of antisemitism).

The only vested interest I see is that many are Jews.
Is that what you meant?

Steve,
If you say that Israel is acting like Nazi Germany, you're being an idiot but you're not being antisemitic.

You are according to the EUMC working definition.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 16 - 04:01 AM

"Once again the Baroness hits the nail on the head:"
Where does the Baroness's make the many thousand of Jews, Israelis and throughout the world, who have openly criticised Israeli policy, including high-ranking members of the Israeli security forces, soldiers, politicians, churchmen, scientists, writers, intellectuals, medical workers........ "Antisemitic".
To accuse anybody who criticises Israeli of being Antisemite is not only an Antisemitic act, but it puts the Jewish people as a whole in danger.
Israel's behavior in adopting this as a tactic to avoid being tries for war crimes and atrocities is a major contributor to the present rise in Antisemitism - it has also contributed to the fact that terrorists who target Jewish establishments and people have been told that the atrocities carried out by Israel are the fault of the Jews.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 May 16 - 12:22 AM

Oh, and, Keith, you like the Times of Israel, don't you? Here they report that the definition that you like (despite its obvious flaws) was dropped in 2013. http://www.timesofisrael.com/eu-drops-its-working-definition-of-anti-semitism/

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 May 16 - 12:17 AM

Have a look, Keith, at the composition of the advisory board of the panel that adopted the obviously and irrationally over-expansive definition of antisemitism that you like. All have a vested interest in an over-broad definition. http://www.antisem.eu/advisory-board/

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 May 16 - 12:10 AM

Today the 5th May - http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Politics-And-Diplomacy/IDF-general-in-bombshell-speech-Israel-today-shows-signs-of-1930s-Germany-453142?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 May 16 - 12:09 AM

From 2013 - http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013/01/all-6-former-israeli-secret-service-chiefs-slam-occupation-of-palestine.html

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 May 16 - 12:04 AM

Baroness Deech She was a member of the Jewish Leadership Council until 2010.

She is the daughter of the late historian and journalist, Josef Fraenkel (b. 1903, Ustrzyki Dolne, Poland) who fled Vienna and then Prague from the Nazis. Several other members of her family were murdered in Nazi concentration camps during World War II. Her first cousin is Maurice Frankel, Director of the UK Campaign for Freedom of Information.

She is not an inertial observer. Her remarks cited are over a year old. On the other hand, it is a fact that over the last day of so, Israeli F16s have been pounding Gaza - while those in Gaza have scarcely a bow and arrow to defend themselves with. The IDF summarily execute Palestinians including teenagers, manhandle women, and arrest children under 10. Israeli forces kill about 160 Palestinians for every Israeli killed by a Palestinian. Israel continues to annex land, even past its war gains of 1967.

Do you realise that in 1910 around 90% of those living in the land that is now occupied by Israel were non-Jewish?

Finkelstein and Walker are quite right.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 May 16 - 10:10 PM

"What was that Baroness Deech said bout the "Left" again.....oh yeah:

"to be of the "Left" is to be righteous, sanctimonious and beyond criticism or reproof."

I would hazard a guess that the Baroness knows f@ck all about the realities and families of ordinary hard working grass roots labour voters and supporters
living in provincial council estates like the one I grew up on... 😣

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 May 16 - 10:10 PM

Er, I said, "Anyway, that's how I see it." And thanks for falling into the trap and revealing yourself to be that obnoxious anonymous Guest-troll that suddenly disappeared when the no-guest rule was brought in. Funny how you've suddenly reappeared, isn't it. I didn't quite expect it to work so quickly. Naturally, you'll deny it. Which is what cowards do. 😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 04 May 16 - 09:49 PM

Ha, ha, ha Shaw defining what makes an antisemite for us.

What was that Baroness Deech said bout the "Left" again.....oh yeah:

"to be of the "Left" is to be righteous, sanctimonious and beyond criticism or reproof."

She must be an avid reader of Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 May 16 - 09:36 PM

I'm a very simple man. You're an antisemite if you demonise a person because he is a Jew. You are not an antisemite because you criticise his country, his actions, his government or his dad. In the latter cases, you may well be wrong, but you are not being antisemitic. Israel wishes to be regarded as a Jewish state. Personally, I don't think that's wise, when a quarter of its population are not Jewish. Equally, I don't think it's wise to criticise "Israel." Far better to be specific and criticise the Israeli regime, specifying the actions it takes that you see as objectionable, which are manifold. If you state that Israel should be wiped off the map, you're a fool, because that is neither possible nor desirable, but it isn't an an antisemitic statement if you mean that you object to the creation of the state of Israel after WW2. If you mean that Jews should be wiped off the map, that's different. If you say that Israel is acting like Nazi Germany, you're being an idiot but you're not being antisemitic. You are being antisemitic if you say that Jews are like Nazis. Anyway, that's how I see it. I don't think Ken Livingstone said anything that was technically wrong, but I do think that his timing was execrable. I sort of like Ken, but Christ knows what he was thinking of when he said what he did.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 May 16 - 05:23 PM

"you must believe that reactionary arseholes are whipping up staged hysteria

Yes.. that much to me is highly probable.. to such an extent I find it hard to disbelieve...

But not all those playing a part are reactionary arseholes..

Some are otherwise respectable credible figures, getting swept up in this hysterical smear campaign..
and opening themselves up to being manipulated by the arseholes
to be used to fit in with be seen to add support to their arshole agendas.....


"The subtlety of your use of semantics escaped me as I am anti-semantic"

My excuse is even simpler.. I'm just not very good at writing these days....

It's quarter of a century since I was a post grad student of 'concepts of belief and ideology' .. or some such clever dick humanities field of education..

.. analysis of media and propaganda being a key element...

But that was then....

Now I'm older, worn out by all the negativity and disappointments life throws out and rarely get much free quality time for stimulating thinking...

Though I still trust my judgement to smell attacks intended to destabilise a party
that exists to at least try to fight the odds stacked up against ordinary folks having a fair safe decent standard of living...

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 04 May 16 - 04:35 PM

I don't believe.. I try to question...

Pardon me for taking your use of the word condemning in your statement I feel entitled and unrestricted in condemning all the reactionary arseholes who are whipping up staged hysteria to fuck up support and votes for a labour Party lead by Corbyn..... to mean that you must believe that reactionary arseholes are whipping up staged hysteria rather than you are questioning that fact. The subtlety of your use of semantics escaped me as I am anti-semantic.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 May 16 - 04:18 PM

I don't believe.. I try to question...

I consider reasonable possibilities / probabilities as objectively as I can based on available reliable/unreliable media sourced information..
and my own experiece and judgement.

Therefore, I consider it not impossible that 'unknown' agencies acting on their own agendas
may have quite possibly ignited the sparks of this recent strategic smear attack on Corbyn's leadership.

Feeding the frenzy of right wing media exaggerated outrage and hostile anti Corbyn Labour stooges.

As a consequence drawing in very credible commentators whose well intended comments & involvement
are fanning the flames and helping perpetrate a fake high profile scandal.
Way out of proportion than these issues deserve at this precise time so close to elections..

It's as if 'some people' 'somewhere' desperately need the UK public's minds to be more focused on Israel / Jew versus Muslim issues,
than our own immediate shared communities social welfare / Health / Education / etc / problems...????


Distract, Divide and Rule...

.. weird old world... innit...!!!??? 😕


Hopefully not too unrealistic an appraisal...???

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 04 May 16 - 03:33 PM

Well.. of course you can presume to predict what what any other individual might believe in or agrees with..

So, do you believe it's all staged hysteria whipped up by reactionary arseholes or not, I am confused.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 04 May 16 - 03:24 PM

As did a former head of Mossad and the Holocaust survivors and their families - and a lorra, lorra Israelis and Jews inside and outside of Israel - Einstein and his mates described the extremist behaviour of Israel as Fascism
All Antisemitic, of course


Once again the Baroness hits the nail on the head:

"That in itself is an anti-Semitic conclusion, one that collapses the ability to call out anti-Semitic comments by virtue of its 'Jewish' imprimatur. If one black person were to defend slavery would that make it acceptable? Would that person immediately be perceived as the spokesperson for all black people? Of course not. It is only when some renegade Jews can be found to attack Zionism and Jewish history that they become the representative Jewish voice — Gerald Kaufman, Norman Finkelstein, Avi Shlaim, Noam Chomsky, Ilan Pappe, Gilad Atzmon — too many, regrettably, with their own reasons for what they say."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 May 16 - 03:03 PM

"So I take it you are in agreement with ....."


Well.. of course you can presume to predict what what any other individual might believe in or agrees with..
You can also rightly or falsely continue to imply accusations of guilt by association..
or imagine any thing you like,
if you are that intent on undermining and discrediting your perceived opponents ..
You can also be completely wrong and talk as much as you like out your arse.. it's all entirely your prerogative....

Btw.. the word "zionist" has never existed in my vocabulary for any purpose...

This might even be the first time I have ever written it...????

.. and back on topic of crazy conspiracy theories..

"Israel funds ISIS" might not be totally too far fetched to be the basis of a pop culture fictional satirical paranoid political thriller movie...

Then again... neither would "Covert Mossad agents fermenting a proxy political war between Jews & Muslims on UK soil, irrespective of collateral damage"...

Add Russell Crowe, John Hurt, Helen Mirren, Benedict Cumberbatch.. and maybe Ridley Scott directing.....

Producers would be throwing $$$$$ to green light the project



Take your pick of conspiracies.. or imagine some more...

Any ideas can exist in an over fertile paranoid imagination..... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 16 - 03:02 PM

"I feel entitled and unrestricted in condemning Israel"
Amen to all that PFR
"Labour Party councillors who have been suspended for comparisons between Israel and Hitler"
As did a former head of Mossad and the Holocaust survivors and their families - and a lorra, lorra Israelis and Jews inside and outside of Israel - Einstein and his mates described the extremist behaviour of Israel as Fascism
All Antisemitic, of course
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 04 May 16 - 01:55 PM

I feel entitled and unrestricted in condemning all the reactionary arseholes who are whipping up staged hysteria to fuck up support and votes for a labour Party lead by Corbyn.....

So I take it you are in agreement with the Labour Party councillors who have been suspended for comparisons between Israel and Hitler, for stating that Israel funds ISIS and for calling for the "relocation" of Israelis.

Baroness Deech hits the regressive Left's nail on the head:

"Yes, there are right-wing anti-Semites and there are Holocaust deniers, but they have for long been treated as buffoons of no importance — which is true — and being of the "Right" they are not taken seriously, whereas to be of the "Left" is to be righteous, sanctimonious and beyond criticism or reproof."

"it's curious how many anti-Zionists cannot refrain from bringing Hitler and Nazism into every discussion, as a way of coloring perceptions of Israel"

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 May 16 - 12:51 PM

I'm only quarter jew.. so I can only hate an arm or a leg...

But it's probably still enough to have won me a train ride to a n@zi 'work' camp...

I feel entitled and unrestricted in condemning Israeli govt & military,
I feel entitled and unrestricted in condemning any racism within the Labour party..
I feel entitled and unrestricted in criticising aspects of the Jewish & Muslim & Christian religions..
I feel entitled and unrestricted in condemning all the reactionary arseholes who are whipping up staged hysteria
to fuck up support and votes for a labour Party lead by Corbyn.....

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 16 - 12:38 PM

"Jim just can't help transforming any thread with a political slant into a denunciation of Israel:"
This subject is about how Israel is using the accusation of 'Antisemitism' as a defence or their behaviour and how that has affected British politics - and all because the lady doesn't like.... The International Criminal Court.
A little difficult to ignore that fact and all your somewhat pretentious waffle really doesn't alter that fact.
You may be happy to see the Jewish people blamed for Israeli crimes - personally, I find it offensive enough to comment on, but then again, that's me.
Perhaps you would like to respond to the article I put up - no/
I paid a flying visit to Manchester last week - you wouldn't believe what the "self-hating Jews" (quote) are saying there.
Thought not.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 May 16 - 12:12 PM

A prominent British Jew's explanation for the party's problems.

"Why the Labour Party Won't Confront British Muslim anti-Semitism

Too many Labour politicians cravenly adopted the anti-Semitic tropes and anti-Israel demonization they think will get them British Muslim votes, rather than standing up to the prejudice that exists in the community."

Baroness Deech is an independent peer in the House of Lords. A lawyer, she was formerly Principal of St Anne's College Oxford, a governor of the BBC, chair of the Human Fertilisation & Embryology Authority and a trustee of the Rhodes Scholarships.
read more: http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.717851
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.717851

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 May 16 - 05:46 PM

Trouble is that, for all his undoubted virtues, Jim just can't help transforming any thread with a political slant into a denunciation of Israel: it's a King Charles's Head of his. As that character in Shaw's You Never Can Tell might have said: 'He thinks it isn't but it is'. Admittedly Israel was intro'd by Les in 3rd post: but just look at the truculent tone of Jim's instant rejoinder in the 4th, & the way the thread inevitably progressed thereafter!!

Didn't mean to maintain the drift. Just saying

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 May 16 - 02:16 PM

Yes.
I was not going to pursue it any further either.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 May 16 - 12:48 PM

Keith - ok.. you're the OP.. it's your thread... but weren't we supposed to be discussing the Labour party...??? 😜

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 May 16 - 12:42 PM

Not true Keith - I have questioned their opinions - I have never rejected their views on the basis of their race, as you have here.
No more dialogue Keith - once again, you have plainly demonstrated your attitude to other races.
Bye-eee
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 May 16 - 10:32 AM

Those supporting Israeli policy are "anti Palestinian" by definition are incapably of neutrality and objctivity, so we discount what all of them have to say, is that right?

You would not accept the view of such a person as objective and neutral about the motivation and tactics of the Palestinians.
You always challenge anything quoted from such people as being inadmissible to the discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 May 16 - 08:19 AM

Where does it suggest that either of these authors are "anti-Israeli"
Those supporting Israeli policy are "anti Palestinian" by definition are incapably of neutrality and objctivity, so we discount what all of them have to say, is that right?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 May 16 - 07:10 AM

So anyone from Palestine, no matter who they are, are incapable of being "neutral or objective" - do I have that right.

No, but anti-Israel Palestinian activists are by definition not neutral.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 May 16 - 07:00 AM

"We are entitled to know that it was not written by a neutral, objective observer. "
So anyone from Palestine, no matter who they are, are incapable of being "neutral or objective" - do I have that right.
You decline to comment on the co-author - is that because she is Israeli and therefore "neutral or objective"?
Bit racist, doncha think?
I pointed out the fact that the article by 'The Campaign Against Antisemitism' was questionable not because its authors were Jews, but because the organisation was actually set up to defend Israeli atrocities and war crimes - not the Jewish people but the behaviour of the Israeli Regime - who contributes to its upkeep.

These definitions are still displayed on the current 'Zionism on the Web site' - the same as the old one in an expanded form
"Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.
However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic. Antisemitic acts are criminal when they are so defined by law (for example, denial of the Holocaust or distribution of antisemitic materials in some countries). Criminal acts are antisemitic when the targets of attacks, whether they are people or property---such as buildings, schools, places of worship and cemeteries---are selected because they are, or are perceived to be, Jewish or linked to Jews. Antisemitic discrimination is the denial to Jews of opportunities or services available to others and is illegal in many countries."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 May 16 - 06:56 AM

Richard, that is produced by representatives from all counties of the EU as indicative of antisemitism.
I would hardly expect the antisemetic site "Electronic Intifada" to agree.
Is that your only evidence for saying,
"the reality of the matter is that the definition you like is no longer treated as a working definition?"

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 May 16 - 06:34 AM

"We are entitled to know that it was not written by a neutral, objective observer. That is all."
So being Palestinian presumes they are incapable of being neutral or objective, no matter who they are?
Bit racist doncha think?
You decline to comment on the co-author being an Israel - is that because the fact she was born in Israel makes her "objective and reliable"
To all articles have to undergo you racial purity test before we can take them seriously?
bit of a blast from the past, eh what!!
The Nazis were defeated, South Africal Apartheid is Dead and the Good ol' South is emancipated - hopefully, their ideologies went with them, but not here apparently.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 May 16 - 06:27 AM

These definitions are still displayed on the current 'Zionism on the Web site' - the same as in the past in an expanded form
Jim Carroll

Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.
However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic. Antisemitic acts are criminal when they are so defined by law (for example, denial of the Holocaust or distribution of antisemitic materials in some countries). Criminal acts are antisemitic when the targets of attacks, whether they are people or property---such as buildings, schools, places of worship and cemeteries---are selected because they are, or are perceived to be, Jewish or linked to Jews. Antisemitic discrimination is the denial to Jews of opportunities or services available to others and is illegal in many countries.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 May 16 - 04:42 AM

Keith, the reality of the matter is that the definition you like is no longer treated as a working definition except by those who want to muzzle criticism of Israel and its oppressive conduct - for example but not by way of limitation see - https://electronicintifada.net/content/israel-lobby-uses-discredited-anti-semitism-definition-muzzle-debate/11716

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 May 16 - 04:28 AM

So what - don't those who support the Palestinians have a voice?
They do.
What is your point.
We are entitled to know that it was not written by a neutral, objective observer. That is all.

They did say, " The EUMC has since abandoned this wording" but that exact wording is still on their site.
http://www.antisem.eu/projects/eumc-working-definition-of-antisemitism/

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 May 16 - 04:13 AM

"David Landy (co-author Irish Times article) is national organizer of the Ireland-Palestine Solidarity Campaign and author of Jewish Identity and Palestinian Rights: Diaspora Jewish Opposition to Israel."
So what - don't those who support the Palestinians have a voice?
Ronit Lentin, the other author, is Jewish, born in the newly-formed State of Israel
What's your point Keith?
Do you actually have anything to say on the points made by the article or would you rather nit-pick possible errors?
It suggests that Israel is using "Antisemitism" as a catch-all defence of its criminal behaviour and goes to great pains to suggest why.
How about dealing with that?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 May 16 - 04:01 AM

Why, at a time when Labour members in general, and the Parliamentary Labour Party in particular, should be uniting and waging non-stop war on the vilest, most deceitful and damaging Tory government ever inflicted on the United Kingdom, are they wittering on, attacking their own members and their leader, and wasting their combined energy over some perceived 'anti-semitism'?

Labour MPs were elected to oppose the Self-Servatives in Parliament. Time they got on with it, or found a different job. There's considerably more than enough to keep them fully occupied fighting Tory mis-rule, without indulging in stupid playground-games trying to unseat their own leader (who, incidentally, was elected in a landslide, by Labour Party members).

They should do what they were elected to do, or Foxtrot Oscar.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 May 16 - 03:22 AM

David Landy (co-author Irish Times article) is national organizer of the Ireland-Palestine Solidarity Campaign and author of Jewish Identity and Palestinian Rights: Diaspora Jewish Opposition to Israel.
Electronic Intifada.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 02 May 16 - 07:49 PM

No surprise that, this is what the regressive left has become.

"Over 50 members of the British Labour Party have been suspended over anti-Semitic and racist remarks over the last two months, the Telegraph reported on Monday, nearly 40 more than publicly admitted by the party.

Labour suspended up to 20 members in the last two weeks alone, according to the report, which cited an unnamed senior source within the party, who added that the suspensions made public were just the "tip of the iceberg."

Haaretz

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 02 May 16 - 06:41 PM

Keith, it's the Irish Times, no more needs to be said.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 May 16 - 03:26 PM

Jim's Irish Times artical states,
" In this, they use an obsolete formulation from the European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (EUMC) which includes as a possible sign of anti-Semitism: "denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, eg, by claiming that the existence of a state of Israel is a racist endeavour". The EUMC has since abandoned this wording as it was being used to launch attacks on critics of Israel, rather than to tackle real anti-Semitism."

That appears not to be true.
it is still current on the EUMC site.http://www.antisem.eu/projects/eumc-working-definition-of-antisemitism/

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 May 16 - 02:54 PM

As I said, the Israelis have deliberately made it damn near impossible to distinguish between real Antisemitism and criticism of their crimes
They even describe Jews who critice their crimes ( Einsteing - the holocaust survivors, Jews for Justice, Rabbis for Peace) as "self-hating Jews"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 02 May 16 - 01:30 PM

Campaign Against Antisemitism has analysed research undertaken by ICM Unlimited for Channel 4 and Juniper Television. We were not involved in the production of the research, and have not influenced its methodology.

Two surveys were undertaken: a survey of a representative sample of British Muslims and a representative survey of a sample of the general British population. ICM conducted face-to-face interviews of 1,081 British Muslims aged over 18 between 25th April and 31st May 2015. They then conducted telephone interviews of 1,008 members of the general British public aged over 18 between 5th June and 7th June 2015. In both cases, the data was weighted by age, gender, region and work status, to ensure that it was as representative as possible. The data was released in April 2016 in advance of a Channel 4 television programme based on the data.

The analysis in this document does not make up part of the Channel 4 programme; it represents a close reading of the ICM polling data with a view to better understanding the specific issue of Muslim antisemitism in Britain.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 May 16 - 11:42 AM

"Read the Report"
It's worth noting that The Campaign Against Antisemitism is an organisation that was set up specifically in 2014 to offset of the condemnation of Massacres, atrocities and potential war crimes carried out by Israel in Gaza, (avoided as being judged such by the efforts of the Israelis to have the International Criminal Court, also accused of "Antisemitism" discontinued)
Basically,the C.A.A. is an Israel support group which has co-operated with Israel to change the definition of 'Antisemitism' to include any criticism of Israel - making it virtually impossible to distinguish between real Antisemitism and condemnation of War crimes and atrocities by Israel.
Equating Israeli policy with The Jewish People as a whole is in itself Antisemitic by definition.
"Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.
However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic."
Accepted definition by the European Parliament Working Group on Antisemitism
Anybody who accuses critics of Israel of being Antisemitic are, in fact Antisemitic - this includes the present Israeli regime.
Read the Irish Times article
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 02 May 16 - 09:50 AM

Campaign Against Antisemitism issues report on British Muslims and antisemitism

12th April 2016

For at least twenty years, the British Jewish community has been out in front when it comes to interfaith work. As Britain's Muslim population has grown, British Jews assumed that interfaith models that led to huge advances in relations with British Christians, could apply just as well to relations with British Muslims. Indeed building bridges with British Muslims has become the focus of outreach work by British Jews.

Today, our analysis of the ICM survey of British Muslims for Channel 4 and Juniper Television shows that the gradual buildup of understanding and friendship between Britain's Jews and Muslims has been utterly eclipsed by growing antisemitism amongst British Muslims.

On every single count, British Muslims were more likely by far than the general British population to hold deeply antisemitic views. It is clear that many British Muslims reserve a special hatred for British Jews, rating Jews much less favourably than people of other religions or no religion, yet astonishingly British Muslims largely do not recognise antisemitism as a major problem.

It has long been suspected that sections of the British Muslim population harboured hatred towards British Jews. This survey goes some way to identifying pockets of prejudice, but it also shows that the prejudice is horrifyingly widespread.

From the ICM survey data made available by Channel 4 and Juniper Television, we have been able to identify some of the worst pockets of prejudice. Antisemitic British Muslims are more likely to be men, to be older than 35, to be social renters, to be in employment, to have been born outside Britain, to live south of the Midlands in England, or in Scotland, and they are overwhelmingly likely to sympathise with terrorism, violence and extremism.

The data is frustratingly limited in one some respects, and one in particular: it does not delve into the various political and religious movements that comprise the British Muslim population.

This data shows that Jews remain the 'canary in the coal mine', as they have been throughout history: those who harbour hatred of Jews also hate British society and sympathise with our most deadly enemies. Britain must confront rampant antisemitism within its Muslim population, but also amongst the general population, whose shocking views should be no less concerning simply because the views of British Muslims are worse.

Read the Report

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 May 16 - 09:23 AM

Interesting article here from this morning's Irish Times.
Jim Carroll

Anti-Semitism claims are used for political End
David Landy and Ronit Lentin
Opposition to Israel must not be confused with the evil hatred of Jewish people.

The recent calls to expel former London mayor Ken Livingstone from the British Labour Party have created a worrying alliance between those who use accusations of anti-Semitism to silence critics of Israel and those who use them to attack supporters of the Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn. The calls for his expulsion came after Livingstone said in a BBC interview that Hitler had supported Zionism "before he went mad and ended up killing six million Jews". The claim itself was clumsy but based on historical fact - Hitler originally sought to expel rather than exterminate European Jews. As part of this, he negotiated the Haavara Agreement with Zionist organisations which allowed some Jews to escape to Palestine with some of their property in return for Zionist opposition to the global boycott of German goods. This was hardly "support for Zionism", but Livingstone's critics went further with fellow Labour MPs accusing him of anti-Semitism.
In response, Livingstone cautioned against "confusing criticism of the Israeli government policy with anti-Semitism", and defended Corbyn, who had been accused of not taking firm enough action against anti-Semitism in the party, which, he said, was part of a smear campaign against the party leader.
Europeans need to face their history of anti-Semitism that culminated in the Nazi Holocaust. Ireland has its own part in that history, the Irish government only admitted 60 Jewish refugees fleeing Nazi persecution between 1933 and 1946. Anti-Semitic sentiments continue - this was clear during the attack on the Hyper Casher supermarket in Paris after the Charlie Hebdo murders.
Israel vs Jews
However, supporters of Israel have sought to widen the definition of anti-Semitism to include those who call themselves anti-Zionist and most recently, those who support the Boycott Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) movement. In this, they use an obsolete formulation from the European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (EUMC) which includes as a possible sign of anti-Semitism: "denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, eg, by claiming that the existence of a state of Israel is a racist endeavour". The EUMC has since abandoned this wording as it was being used to launch attacks on critics of Israel, rather than to tackle real anti-Semitism.
Such efforts to equate anti-Semitism with anti-Zionism follow the state of Israel in conflating Jews with Zionists, even though not all Jews are Zionists or Israel supporters.
Growing numbers of Jewish people in and outside Israel - international groups such as Jewish Voice for Peace and the International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network, as well as Israeli groups such as Boycott from Within - oppose Israeli policies, do not define themselves as Zionists and support the BDS movement. The growing accusations of anti-Semitism against critics of Israel are aimed primarily at discrediting the successful BDS movement.
Israel has announced a $26 million investment in an anti-BDS campaign. Accusing its non-Jewish critics of anti-Semitism and its Jewish critics of being "self-hating Jews" is a central element of this campaign.
Accusations as weapons
Returning to the Labour Party, the Jewish Socialist Group has attacked the "weaponising" of accusations of anti-Semitism by forces intent on undermining the leadership of Corbyn.
Likewise the group Jews for Boycotting Israeli Goods worries that "the pro-Zionist lobby - Jewish and non-Jewish - deliberately and maliciously seeks to associate Jew-hatred with criticism of Israel in the public mind", despite the insistence by Corbyn's team that "anti-Semitism is a vile prejudice that is not permitted in the Labour Party" and its pledge to expel anyone found guilty of it.
The expulsions have taken on the character of a witch hunt. For instance, Jewish activist Tony Greenstein who has long campaigned against anti-Semitism in Palestine solidarity circles, has been accused of anti-Semitism and suspended from the Labour Party. The collection of scalps has emboldened supporters of Israel with the Britain Israel communications and Research Centre seeking to whip up animosity and tweeting followers to "save your pitch fork for Corbyn".
Such cynical political acts cheapen the grave charge of anti-Semitism. In this atmosphere where such allegations are used to silence political opponents, it is tempting to reject any and all accusations of anti-Semitism. This too must be guarded against - anti-Semitism needs to be tackled wherever it exists. In this battle, there is an urgent need to resist conflating
opposition to Israel with anti-Jewish racism.

David Landy is an assistant professor of sociology and Ronit Lentin is a retired associate professor of sociology at Trinity College Dublin

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 02 May 16 - 09:07 AM

According to a report issued by the Campaign Against Anti-semitism    the number of hate crimes against Jews in Britain has reached a shocking high. Police recorded almost 1,000 anti-Semitic offences in 2015 - up 25 per cent. The findings also revealed that the growth in anti-Semitism is a core part of far-Left ideology.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Acorn4
Date: 02 May 16 - 03:54 AM

Going back a bit, anyone who said anything bad about Jimmy Saville, or about police/government behaviour over Hillsborough would have been called a "conspiracy theorist".

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: akenaton
Date: 02 May 16 - 03:00 AM

I think the real point is that Mr Corbyn is unlikely to survive as leader of a socialist party with no socialist representatives.
Skeletons will continue to be unearthed by a disgusting, dirt delving media, and a system which sees any alternative to jungle law as enathema

The contradictions are starting to show once again. The movement needs to go back to the grass roots, forget about government and concentrate on education; which is difficult when political representation is equated to a career opportunity.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 May 16 - 07:26 PM

"extraordinary powers"... what.. like supernatural super hero mesmerising mind controls powers...???

that'd be well cool....!!!

I'll have to ask my mum if anyone on her side of the family could do that and can let me in on the secrets..... 😎


Though in reality, it's probably less fantasy sci fi conspiracy theory explanation
and more likely just plain old mundane covert intelligence agency influence & interference with UK political parties and media...??? 😜

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 01 May 16 - 07:02 PM

But instigated by 'who' and 'why' now...???

Definitely a conspiracy instigated by Jews/Zionists in order to discredit Corbyn and the Labour party. They tricked Labour party members into making antisemitic comments so that they would reveal themselves as being antisemites. The Jews/Zionists, besides controlling world banking, governments and the media, have extraordinary powers to effect people into saying things that they don't really mean. This is but only one way these nefarious people exert their will upon the unsuspecting.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 May 16 - 12:47 PM

Conspiracy theory....???

This current rancid attack on Corbyn's allies and leadership stinks so obviously of a strategically timed orchestrated smear campaign
to ferment divisive internal disruption and hostilities within the Labour party.

But instigated by 'who' and 'why' now...???

This shoul be a good conspiracy guessing game over the bank holiday...

The outrage being generated is so over exaggerated and phoney
that the stooges in the frontline of the media attack
are just making themselves look very stupid...

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 May 16 - 06:21 AM

I know you were Akenaton and thank you for it.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: akenaton
Date: 01 May 16 - 06:16 AM

Just joking Raggytash.....I'm sure you have a point.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 May 16 - 06:14 AM

Ah ......... there may be an element of truth in that, but who told you that I was.

On a more realistic note Akenaton just happening to be were he knew Ken Livingstone was going to be and just happening to have a TV crew at hand and to behave as he did in front of a TV instead of in private you have to ask yourself some questions about the validity of the whole scenario.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: akenaton
Date: 01 May 16 - 06:05 AM

Because you're a conspiracy theorist? :0)

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 May 16 - 05:26 AM

Why can't I help but feel it was a set up.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 01 May 16 - 04:45 AM

I am with SPB:

"Why cant Livingston And Mann (and loads of others) shut their stupid mouths. Mann should know better than pick a public fight one week before the Mayor election, but hey who gives a f*** about all the hours of hard work - canvassing and leafleting that people who really care about the election have done"

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 01 May 16 - 04:33 AM

Sorry for the missing apostrophe in can't. I will be back out canvassing and leafleting for the next 9 hours

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 01 May 16 - 04:24 AM

Why cant Livingston And Mann shut their stupid mouths. Mann should know better than pick a public fight one week before the Mayor election, but hey who gives a f*** about all the hours of hard work - canvassing and leafleting that people who really care about the election have done. Does Mann care if Goldsmith wins the mayor election and ordinary Londoners face increased fares, and are finally kicked out of the capital because of house prices, or forced to live in 3 x 3 metre homes with shared bathrooms and cooking facilities and pay over £1,000 for the privilege. But why should he give a toss, he has a safe seat and he gets his face in the Daily Mail.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Apr 16 - 06:24 AM

Mann is a loathsome traitor to the Labour cause, and the deliberate trap complete with film crew that he laid should see him expelled from the Labour party.

I noted that when Ken was suspending the charge was not directly anti-Semitism but 'bringing the party into disrepute', and if that related to a somewhat intemperate row in front of the media, Mann is every bit as guilty.

Like Richard, I was pretty convinced what Ken actually said was historically accurate (unlike Mann's comments), so I looked them up and I think his case is solid, providing you interpret wanting the Jews to go to Israel to be supportive of Zionism (and remember the accusers are repeatedly saying that only means "having the right to a self governing state of Israel") But since when has being historically accurate mattered much against emotional appeals?

As to headline question: whither the Labour Party? Much depends on how the May 5th elections turn out. The bitterites will stress every loss of a seat and ignore every win; the Corbynites will do the reverse. That is, politics as normal. It will only differ from this if there is a complete collapse of one side or the other, which isn't very likely.

As an aside, I heard a clever parody of "Benjamin Bowmaneer" at the club last night "I'll tell how the wars began, Anthony Blair-i-o.."
That still has a huge impact on the 'whither Labour' question.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Apr 16 - 02:07 AM

Sorry - didn't finish.
Having said that, it is the responsibility of politicians and others in the public eye to choose their words carefully - the social network can be a bit of a pain in the arse, especially after closing time.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Apr 16 - 02:04 AM

Thanks to Israeli efforts, criticism of Israel and Antisemitism have become indistinguishable.
This campaign has become a knee-jerk reaction of at least one regular contributor to this forum who has disappeared since the new rule of allowing only members to post to BS
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Apr 16 - 01:35 AM

I rather like Ken Livingstone and think he has been rather naïve over this, but surely the "liberal" left including Richard indulge in this sort of behaviour all the time?

It is becoming impossible to discuss controversial subjects anywhere without being attacked verbally.

Discussions on immigration become "racism", health rates "homophobia", support for anyone but Mrs Clinton "misogyny".
Take your pick.......Political Correctness rules.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 08:28 PM

Has Livingstone been proven by any decent sensible reasonable standards to be any kind of racist ?

He may be a bit of a dick with a tongue in cheek sense of humour that is deliberately misconstrued by enemies determined to find things to be offended by..

but a racist ?????

This whole pernicious poisonous "I call you that thing, so therefore you are that thing" tactic employed by the labour traitors over the last few days
just shows some of them them up to be desperate pathetic shites.

Then there are all the cowards who fail to back up Livingstone for fear of being called that thing themselves...

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 08:15 PM

" the fact that the USA (terrified of its Jewish lobby) used war debt to bully the UK into capitulating to Zionist terrorism in 1948"

Absolutely dying to hear the substantive evidence that backs that statement up. Great Britain relinquished and gave up its League of Nations Mandate precisely when it should have done. Nothing whatsoever to do with the USA or any bullying. The floor is yours Bridge let's hear the detail.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 07:17 PM

Bridge defending antisemites......is anyone surprised by that?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 06:49 PM

The assertions of antisemitism (in the usual meanings of the word) in the Labour party are conjurations. The criticisms of Naz Shah and Ken Livingstone are part of a concerted attempt by two interest groups to undermine the Labour party (with the local elections coming), to undermine Jeremy Corbyn (who seeks to defend the Palestinians from Zionist oppression) and to weaponise the assertion that criticism of Israel and its vile government and its murderous armed forces are antisemitic. One such group is the Zionists, and the other is the bitterites, who would rather see Labour lose an election than accept that the Labour has roundly rejected con-servative lite policies such as those of Tony B.Liar.

There have been attempts since at least 2005 to insert criticism of Israel into conventional definitions of antisemitism.

The Naz Shah meme most complained of was a witty rejoinder to the fact that the USA (terrified of its Jewish lobby) used war debt to bully the UK into capitulating to Zionist terrorism in 1948, and has at least recently been subsidising the Israeli military (and thus the US weapons manufacturing sector) with vast sums of money. Israel has nuclear weapons modern warplanes and white phosphorus. Palestine in general and Gaza in particular have none. The Israeli forces kill about 160 Palestinians for every Israeli killed by Palestinians. Some of the people the Israeli armed forces summarily execute are children with their hands tied behind their backs.

Ken Livingstone was and remains historically accurate - and the quite remarkable thing is that the loathsome Netanyahu made exactly the same point about the Haaretz agreement.

Another fascinating thing is that the hasbara have also claimed the scalp of a young aide appointed by Sanders to improve his Jewish vote.

Mann is a loathsome traitor to the Labour cause, and the deliberate trap complete with film crew that he laid should see him expelled from the Labour party.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 10:40 AM

Just like here the shit always rises to the surface.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 09:28 AM

Nicely deflects any media criticism away from the present government for a day or two.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 09:02 AM

"Not just the right wing media."
Where does any of this contradict anything I have put up about Israeli Antisemitism in implicating the entire Jewish population in Isreli atrocities - is the press now made up of "real historians" who sell their books in "real bookshops"?
The Israeli have devised a technique of dismissing criticism of all their atrocities as anti-Semitic and to a degree, they have been successful
Doesn't make the Israeli regime any less Antisemitic.
If to criticise Israel is Antisemitic - Erinstein, Haaretz, the former heads of Mossad and the Holocaust survivors and their families are Antisemites.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 07:40 AM

Last time I was a daily Guardian reader was over 30 years ago...

I presume it's perhaps even more comfy liberal middle class these days.. hardly socialist worker / morning star ....???

So these out of context extracts don't exactly do much but demonstrate reasonably neutral objective reporting.

The unattributed "grotesque analogies" quote might veer towards opinionated reporting.. perhaps..????


In the bigger game of 'divide and rule' the Guardian is surely of not much consequence...

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 07:25 AM

Not just the right wing media.

Labour antisemitism crisis: party deals with fallout of Livingstone suspension – live
The Guardian‎ - 23 mins ago
Ken Livingstone leaves his home in London after being suspended from the Labour party.
Ken Livingstone's 'grotesque analogies' unite the national press
The Guardian‎ - 4 hours ago
Ken Livingstone must be thrown out of Labour. He's had his last second chance
The Guardian‎ - 1 hour ago
More news for guardian livingstone
Ken Livingstone | Politics | The Guardian
www.theguardian.com/politics/livingstone
Live Labour suspends Ken Livingstone over Hitler and antisemitism row - Politics live ... Ken Livingstone suspended from Labour after Hitler remarks.
Is this self-ignited firestorm the end for Ken Livingstone ...
www.theguardian.com › Opinion › Ken Livingstone
15 hours ago - This could be it for Ken Livingstone and the Labour party. To be cast into the wilderness by his party once, as he was before winning the ...
Ken Livingstone's 'grotesque analogies' unite the national ...
www.theguardian.com › Media › Ken Livingstone
4 hours ago - As the Guardian said: "With singular crassness, instead of clearing the air ... The Times viewed Livingstone's "grotesque analogies" and ...
Ken Livingstone must be thrown out of Labour. He's had his ...
www.theguardian.com › Opinion › Labour
1 hour ago - London Mayor Ken Livingstone at the Labour party conference in 2005. 'As in all groups ... Photograph: Dan Chung for the Guardian. Contact ...
Ken Livingstone suspended from Labour after Hitler remarks ...
www.theguardian.com › Politics › Ken Livingstone
18 hours ago - Labour has suspended the former London mayor Ken Livingstone "for bringing the party into disrepute" after MPs accused of him of ...
Ken Livingstone's Hitler remarks spark Labour calls for ...
www.theguardian.com › Politics › Ken Livingstone
18 hours ago - Labour is facing numerous calls to suspend the former London mayor Ken Livingstone after he was accused of antisemitism and making ...
Timeline: events leading to Ken Livingstone suspensi

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 07:00 AM

"Thanks for clearing that up Jim."
You are very welcome.
Is it not part of the European definition that an attempt to equate the actions of the Israeli regime with the Jewish People as a whole is "antisemitic"?
Is it not true that the knee-jerk response of the Israeli regime is to describe any criticism as "Antisemitism", even to describing the Untied nations as such and attempting to have the International Criminal Court closed down to avoid standing trial for the mass killings of civilians and destruction of hospitals and homes of Palestinians?
Yes ort no will do, but I would prefer 'no' to be qualified with facts rather than just denials.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 06:49 AM

Yet another cynical contrived opportunistic attack on Corbyn from enemies within the party, and the right wing media..

[ not so much from the tories this time as they need his support on EU ]

The BBC news was shamefully biased yesterday
- shows how much The Beeb has been tamed and shackled by the corporate right in the last few years.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 06:45 AM

So its all Israel's fault!
Thanks for clearing that up Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 06:23 AM

The Labour Party has fallen victim to the Israeli campaign to implicate the Jewish people in their terrorism - to them, anybody who criticises Israel is "Antisemitic".
By definition, the Israeli regime is Antisemitic and has caused the current rise in Antisemitism - they have painted a target on the backs of every Jew on the planet
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 06:00 AM

It's partly about the slippery slope between criticism of the State of Israel which is sometimes called Anti-Zionism and criticism of all or most Jewish people which is sometimes called Antisemitism.

The first is generally regarded as legitimate, the second as racist.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 04:00 AM

Dunno Keith, do tell....

Subject: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 03:49 AM

Only a few months into JC's leadership and they are in real trouble.
What is it with the hard left and anti-semitism?