BS: Militant atheism has become a religion

Subject: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 10:26 PM

Very interesting article. Why are some atheists so militant.

Prominent non-believers have become as dogmatic as those they deride

"I like this analysis better than the usual approach to secularization, which just counts how many people believe and how many don't. It may one day help to test my thesis that activist atheism reflects trauma. The stricter one's religious background, the greater the need to go against it and to replace old securities with new ones."

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 10:48 PM

Yes, I've always said that everyone is really "religious" about something (It could be God, money, themselves, success, possessions, sex, fame, their body, their intellect, their profession, their country, their party, their sexual preference, their racial profile, their gender, their home team, their hobby, their drug of choice, etc.), atheists included. Everyone puts a lot of faith in a few particular favorite baskets. And if they're also dogmatic about it, and they want to attack or ridicule all religions, faiths, and obesssions which are different from their own...then they're a pain to be around.

There's a lot of good stuff in that article. This, for instance:

"Dogmatists (either religious or atheistic dogmatists) have one advantage (in a debate): they are poor listeners. This ensures sparkling conversations when different kinds of them get together the way male birds gather at "leks" to display splendid plumage for visiting females. It almost makes one believe in the "argumentative theory," according to which human reasoning didn't evolve for the sake of truth, but rather to shine in discussion."

One sees that in government all the time, specially when the cameras are running. And one sees it on discussion forums.

That's why I'm starting to prefer PMs for difficult subjects. I can talk to just one person then, and neither one of us is tempted to start grandstanding for the rest of the online audience. It makes for far better communication. Also, you don't keep getting interrupted constantly by other people who want to divert things in some other direction. Again, far better communication when it's just two people talking.

Which is why they say, "Too many cooks spoil the soup."

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 11:02 PM

It is actually of very little interest. What a bloody thing to waste time labouring through. It's the same old story. Certain persons of faith feeling so threatened by rational people disagreeing with them that they have to try to imagine that we over here have an alternative belief system, that we're angry, that we're militant, that we're equivalent, in effect, to some wacky religion or other. I have to call myself an atheist (annoying in itself) because I'm cast in that mould by believers. No invention of God, no believers, no atheists. The whole thing is your doing, not ours. We don't band together conspiratorially like Christians, Muslims and Jews do (cf. AIPAC). We don't capture people into our "cause" (by christening, for example) at least twenty years before they understand the notions that bind. We don't preach stuff because we have nothing to preach about. We are not equal and opposites to believers. That legitimises believers beyond all justification. You pontificate from the pulpit, claiming that myth is truth, via programmes on the radio and telly and by indoctrinating school kids from the age of five. We haven't got an opposing body of knowledge to you because there is not the information to possess one. That is a damn sight more honest than Christian belief, which deals in myth as truth, uncertainties as certainties and the entrapment and brainwashing of children. So don't come the old, worn-out "militant atheist" bollocks. We are pussycats without a central organisation, unlike the racist, authoritarian, misogynistic setups of the three major religions, and your false characterisation of us betrays not only crooked thinking but also an unhealthy, rampant, unjustified fear.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 11:12 PM

Yes, I've always said that everyone is really "religious" about something

Ah yes, the usual bogus equivalence argument! It suits you to characterise people who have ardent disagreements with your cosy Christian line as "religious" in some alternative way. You do realise, don't you, that in so doing you are actually making "religious" into a dirty word? That is so laughable. So, in sum, no, we are not religious. Oh yes, we have certain convictions, hard-won (unlike religion, which is hard-received) that are based on the requirement for and critical assessment of evidence. I can't think of anything on earth as different from "religious" as that.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 11:17 PM

Can I PM you about that? ;-)

Most of the people I've ever met worship money, not God. Just offer them a whole of it, and you'll see right away where their priorities lie. Money rules the world! (at present)   

Then there's sex...another major item of worship in our society...check out the latest issue of Cosmopolitan, and you'll see by the titles of the articles on the cover. Sex, sex, sex, and more sex. People worship it, and it's used to sell everything under the sun.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 11:29 PM

You seriously need to inspect and extend your vocabulary. You worship God, you do not worship money. You may lustfully acquire it, steal it, bamboozle people out of it, hoard it, count it, fret about it. You do not do those things with your God. Choose a different word. You do not worship sex. You seek it, yearn for it if you can't get it, fail at it, dream about getting it, worry that God or your dead granny is watching what you get up to. Not worship. Wrong word. This stuff is completely symptomatic of the need of a certain type of believer to obsessively seek equivalence for other people's base, worldly desires with your assumed higher calling in order to make you look good. Live your life, stop making silly, spurious comparisons and get off your religious high horse. And we'll discuss in public if it's all right with you. I hate having to do things twice.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 11:35 PM

Mr. Shaw, You said,

"It is actually of very little interest. What a bloody thing to waste time labouring through. It's the same old story. Certain persons of faith feeling so threatened by rational people disagreeing with them that they have to try to imagine that we over here have an alternative belief system, that we're angry, that we're militant, that we're equivalent, in effect, to some wacky religion or other. I have to call myself an atheist (annoying in itself) because I'm cast in that mould by believers."

The article doesn't say any of those things. The article was in fact written by an atheist. That is explained in the first couple of paragraphs. You obviously didn't read it. Tell me why should anyone care about your uninformed opinion of the article? Please also tell me where you find the arrogance to express it.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 11:47 PM

Mr. Shaw,

"You seriously need to inspect and extend your vocabulary. You worship God, you do not worship money. You may lustfully acquire it, steal it, bamboozle people out of it, hoard it, count it, fret about it. You do not do those things with your God. Choose a different word. You do not worship sex. You seek it, yearn for it if you can't get it, fail at it, dream about getting it, worry that God or your dead granny is watching what you get up to. Not worship. Wrong word."

Pretty strong criticism from a man who said that Hell is minor discomfort and Heaven a sip of whiskey. Would you please apologize to Little Hawk because he did no more than take the same poetic liberties that you did.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 11:58 PM

I see the role of "atheist" much in the same way as I am a "non smoker." I was subjected to cigarette smoke against my will for many years, and when I protested I met defensive and angry put-downs. Now that that worm has turned, I insist that smokers take it elsewhere and not intrude on my space. The same with bible-thumpers.

Resisting the status quo doesn't make you militant or strident. Speaking your mind and making your preferences known is just that. If religious folk see that as militant, that is THEIR problem.

I've only glanced at the article, but the lines "I now draw a sharp line, based not on what exactly they believe but on their level of dogmatism. I consider dogmatism a far greater threat than religion per se" ring true.

This paragraph, though, is as far as one seems to need to read: "Religion looms as large as an elephant in the United States, to the point that being nonreligious is about the biggest handicap a politician running for office can have, bigger than being gay, unmarried, thrice married, or black. This is upsetting, of course, and explains why atheists have become so vocal in demanding their place at the table. They prod the elephant to see whether they can get it to make some room. But the elephant also defines them, because what would be the point of atheism in the absence of religion?"

A philosophy of life without reference to the judeo-christian or other industrial religions is entirely possible - as long as you don't let them control the discussion and define the terms. Humans are superstitious - chances are there has been some form of religion in most cultures going back a very long time. For many people today a combination of ethics and science takes care of how they deal with others and provides answers to how things work. Those people are observant of nature and the world around them and think about it without reference to a supernatural god. Philosophers come in all stripes, some are religious. Most of those I know or know of, aren't. Every so often some holy-roller comes to my door and wants to bring me into their fold. On the times that I have actually engaged them in any kind of conversation, I've suggested we drop the scripture they want to use to define the conversation and instead use the writings of some of the important 20th century French philosophers.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Mrrzy
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 12:18 AM

Although SOME atheists like churchiness, none are dogmatic; where would dogma come from?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 12:58 AM

"none are dogmatic".   Right.   Just try reading some of the religion threads here.

Mudcat atheists are the soul of tolerance.    Sure they are.

Some (not including Bill D and Amos) believe as strongly that they are correct and that the religious have no clue as any fundamentalist believes his or her own view is the only correct one.

In fact at least one has confirmed the thesis of the OP.    I'll be glad to point it out when the next one does.

It will be interesting to monitor this thread and see just how tolerant the usual Mudcat atheists are.

Have at it, boys.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 01:39 AM

To Whom It May Concern:

If you don't doubt what you believe (or disbelieve) at times, then you and I may have a problem. A good dose of doubt, makes a person tolerant and willing to look at things from the perspective of others.

If you can tell me what I believe, without my telling you myself, then I think we probably have a problem there, too.

Respectfully,

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 02:10 AM

As usual, from the thread title on, it is definitions [or, rather, 'over-definitions'] that we are arguing about.

"You are making a 'religion' of atheism [or sex or food or Adele or sunbathing] by 'worshipping' them."

"No, that is not what 'religion' or 'worship' really mean."

"Well, what would you call it then?"

& so on [& on & on & on ...]

Let's have a little traditional song, shall we?, so we can move all this above the line. All together, now ~~

"Here we go round the mulberry bush, the mul...."

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 03:29 AM

Another misguided case of judging others by your own delusions I suppose.

I get rather fed up of saying I am not an atheist. Sailor boy's thread here makes my case perfectly.   Atheism is a word invented by superstitious people as a negative word. Me? Im irreligious. Not militant, just fed up with the social influence of fantasy and mind control of the lowest order.

Tolerant? Yes. Where it is reciprocated. To date that would be the Quakers and The Church of The Flying Spaghetti Monster. (The reformed Church of The Flying Spaghetti Monster can be chippy buggers though. )

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 05:03 AM

People constantly use the word "religion" as if it were equivalent to "faith". The Latin word "religio" from which it comes means obligation or bond, and the word still carries an implication of being part of a more or less ordered group, with a common set of beliefs and practice.

Atheism is clearly a faith, but it's hard to see how it really qualifies as a religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 05:18 AM

Sorry. Serious question for once.

How can you say atheism is a faith if those to whom faith is an irrelevance get tarred with the atheist brush?

I appreciate your dictionary and ancient interpretation of religio but as 99% of people bandying words around don't know or appreciate that, we are led to reading their words as intended.

I do exhibit faith. To Sheffield Wednesday. And looking at the league table I see many parallels. ..

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 07:07 AM

Ah, so much to come back at (and I will, but time is short this morning). But I couldn't help but pick up this gem:

Some (not including Bill D and Amos) believe as strongly that they are correct and that the religious have no clue as any fundamentalist believes his or her own view is the only correct one.

I have no time for any "atheist" who expresses their standpoint as a certainty. The world's most famous atheist puts himself at 6.9 on his own scale of 0 to 7 with 0 = certainly a God and 7 = certainly no God. He cheerfully subscribed to the London bus campaign that stated "There is probably no God..." I have never, in thousands of posts I've made about faith and religion, said that there is no God. I have said only that the evidence I can honestly glean, and my interpretation of it, suggests that the probability of his existing is vanishingly small. I can't say I don't believe in God because I honestly don't know whether there is one, though my conclusion is that I can happily get on with my life unconcerned about any influence he might have on me now, might have had in the past or may have in the future. Quotes such as the above represent the typically intolerant, ill-considered caricature of those poor souls who are perceived to be not in their camp. The cry of the scared Christian: those who criticise our faith and take a different world view (especially those who express it, and especially especially those who express it bluntly, as bluntly as faiths express themselves with their "certainties") are fundamentalist, we have an atheist faith, we have an atheist belief system, we are evangelical, we are militant, it's really just a perverted kind of religion. Actually, when you think about it, we are none of the above. We literally have nothing to get together and talk about and make plans over. We have no organisation. No schools in which to indoctrinate children. We nearly always merely react. Some of us are quite good at that (I always think it's easier to be good at it when you tell yourself you will not be derailed from rationality). This thread was started by a Christian. Just thought I'd mention it.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 07:31 AM

The article doesn't say any of those things. The article was in fact written by an atheist. That is explained in the first couple of paragraphs. You obviously didn't read it. Tell me why should anyone care about your uninformed opinion of the article? Please also tell me where you find the arrogance to express it.

Excuse me, but I read it end to end. The writer, paradoxically, thinks that the type of atheist that he himself isn't (and I disagree vehemently with the classification he adheres to in any case) makes far too much noise, yet here he is making an awful lot of noise himself in telling us not to be so noisy. He is an atheist but he writes like many a Christian. The Vatican should be paying him a shilling or two. He has nothing new to say. Parenthetically, he is wrong in saying that the biggest disadvantage for an American politician is non-belief. The biggest disadvantage for an American politician is to want to open your mouth in criticism of Israel, indulgence in which is the certain way to end your career. Far worse. He attempts to stun us with his rhetorical mention of Hitchens favouring Dick Cheney over Mother Teresa. The pause at the end of that sentence was to accommodate some time for righteous tut-tutting and sanctimonious head-shaking from his "audience". Unfortunately, anyone who has ever looked in Mother Teresa's life knows that Hitchens was spot on with his choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 07:32 AM

As Steve Shaw said: "We are not equal and opposites to believers."

Exactly!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 07:33 AM

"You seriously need to inspect and extend your vocabulary. You worship God, you do not worship money. You may lustfully acquire it, steal it, bamboozle people out of it, hoard it, count it, fret about it. You do not do those things with your God. Choose a different word. You do not worship sex. You seek it, yearn for it if you can't get it, fail at it, dream about getting it, worry that God or your dead granny is watching what you get up to. Not worship. Wrong word."

Pretty strong criticism from a man who said that Hell is minor discomfort and Heaven a sip of whiskey. Would you please apologize to Little Hawk because he did no more than take the same poetic liberties that you did.

The perfect embodiment of mischievous disingenuousness. And Talisker is whisky, not whiskey, ignoramus.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 08:13 AM

"Militant Atheism"" - an oxymoron if ever there was one.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: John P
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 08:49 AM

What a bunch of utter bullshit. If you want to say that "some atheists care as much about their atheism as some Christians care about their religion" I might be able to go along with it. But saying that atheism is a religion, or that some atheists are religious, is like saying that I'm a stamp collector because I don't have a stamp collection. It is more logical and more true to say that all Christians are Satan worshipers.

Jack the Sailor, I think you are a really good person, but this thread is really offensive. Be ashamed.

Ron Davies, we're all tired of your bullshit response every time this subject comes up. You are wrong, you can't prove what you say, and you are exhibiting bigotry. Be ashamed.

Joe, I rather liked your response. I have to confess that I have no doubt whatsoever (speaking unscientifically) that the God described in the Bible does not exist. But if your words are taken to heart by any of the offensive "you're just like me" crowd, I will be glad.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 08:49 AM

Yes, Greg, along with such characterisations as "bitter ex-Catholics" that we often have to endure. It's a casual and easy way of achieving instant demonisation. A good atheist putting his or her well-considered arguments has had to go against a massive tide. They have worked hard. They do not deserve to be shot down by the kind of resort to lazy thinking that is implied by the title of the thread, or by the writer of that article, or by the oft-parroted, by not just him I hasten to add, received wisdoms of Ron Davies. That's where the true noise in these conversations always comes from.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 09:08 AM

There was one nugget of real interest, which I would like to have had in a recent discussion.

""In Puebla, D'Souza featured near-death experiences as scientific proof of the afterlife. After a brush with death, some patients report having floated outside of their bodies or having entered a tunnel of light. This surely seems bizarre, but D'Souza failed to bring up new neuroscience of a small brain area known as the temporo-parietal junction (TPJ). This area gathers information from many senses (visual, tactile, and vestibular) to construct a single image of our body and its place in the environment. Normally, this image is nicely coherent across all senses, so that we know who and where we are. The body image is disturbed, however, as soon as the TPJ is damaged or stimulated with electrodes. Scientists can deliberately make people feel that they are hovering above their own body or looking down on it, or have them perceive a copy of themselves sitting next to them, like a shadow ("I looked younger and fresher than I do now. My double smiled at me in a friendly way"). Together with the hallucinogenic qualities of anesthetic drugs and the effects of oxygen depletion on the brain, science is getting close to a materialist explanation of near-death experiences.

Frans de Waal is the author of "Our Inner Ape," among many other works. He is the C.H. Candler professor in Emory University's psychology department. He has been named one of Time magazine's 100 Most Influential People.""

His credentials also seem impressive.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 09:10 AM

With all due respect (ie not much) it seems to me that what many object to about religion is not that the religious believe that there is a god but that they believe that they are entitled, in the name of their god, to demand that those who do not believe in that god obey its rules.

Look at all the evils committed in the name of religion, from the human sacrifices of old to the crusader invasions of the East Mediterranean to the fantastic repression and even genocide by the Roman Catholics to the religious cries of the (thankfully fairly atypical) Islamist bomber or proponent of stoning for "sex outside marriage" when in fact raped or challenge of morality rules by FEMEN.

Has not religion done and does not religion do more harm than good?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 09:50 AM

Many worship money. Some worship football teams, me for instance. I used to worship Kate Bush but that's another matter.

Since when has the word worship been exclusive to your imaginary friend? At least money, football and Kate Bush exist.

Just as atheist is a word so is worship. No bugger has the monopoly on either.

When I signed up to the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster in order to take the piss out of the monitoring forms I have to declare in my work, a friend said it isn't real and as I was baptised as a baby I am a Christian. Bollocks. I signed up of my own free will which makes me a real pastafarian. Albeit one who believes the silly bits as much as an intelligent person who claims to be Christian does..

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Jack Sprocket
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 09:59 AM

If atheism is to be considered just another religion, as theists appear to be arguing, can we please have Richard Dawkins on Thought For The Day and Sunday Worship?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Lighter
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 10:14 AM

Show me someone who "worships" money the way other people "worship" God, and I'll show you the lunatic asylum he's already in:

"Oh, cash of my fathers, please bless me and my family! Please give me the strength to face death! And, while I'm at it, thanks for teaching me how to behave and for creating the universe too!"

I detect significant differences.

By the way, atheism has never been so "militant" as in the USSR and its spin-offs. But people could still pray inside their heads. If religion could survive Stalin and Mao, it can survive democratic secular humanists.

I'm not endorsing or condemning either religion or atheism, by the way. Just observing the facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 10:54 AM

well... since I am referenced above, I will say this: I prefer to be known as a skeptic, not as an atheist- meaning that I just doubt, because of lack of convincing evidence, the claims and language of most dedicated believers. If it were relevant, I would bet a dollar that the Universe has no intelligent designer, but the bet is silly as we just can't settle it. (I can list many ways in which a designer, if one existed and was so moved, could settle the bet, but lacking such intervention, I can only shrug).
It upsets frustrates me that some 'atheists' are so militant that they cause articles to be written. (he said, with a bit of irony implied)

I do agree that much of the argument here (and the title of the thread) is based in language and the logical fallacy called Equivocation. (For those who don't click on links, it just means that people are using words differently and thus talking past each other.)(I have debated Little Hawk on this for years.)

My personal attitude is that I fully understand why the history of humanity is laced with various religious threads, and therefore I try very hard to respect that basic feeling, as long as it is not accompanied by proselytizing. I will even say further that if I were given a button that instantly caused all humans to be convinced that their previous religious ideas were wrong, I would not push that button. If atheism/skepticism is the wave of the (far distant) future, I'd prefer it just gradually seeps in. .... and if there is a god who cares about being known AS a god, I'd pefer it not be so coy and wait thousands of years between messages.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 11:17 AM

Hmm. Assuming there was any Godly message in the first pace. Evidence, dear boy, evidence... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Megan L
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 11:49 AM

Oh hear the rabid turncoat
Just how he does rant and rail
He'd shoot the flaming lot of them
And hang them ower the pale.

He sees no good in others
Aye looking for the bad
He's shouting on street corners
He really looks quite mad.

There is good and bad in all men
It really gets my goat
When folk stop seeing people
And judge the blooming coat

Tis the thought of revolution
It allows a man to kill
The man who was his neighbour
And bore him no ill will

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: pdq
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 12:58 PM

The official American face of the religion of...

                                                                                              Atheism

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 01:06 PM

About Mr. Shaw...

Well it is clear that Shaw is on this thread for the mischief, Saying he read the article, referencing things that are not there then pretending he has read it by referencing things he has read on this thread. Then the final straw, When it was pointed out that he was attacking Little Hawk for an action very similar to his own, the childish insult over me using the common spelling for whiskey where I live was telling. Wasn't it.

I am not accusing Shaw of belonging to a religion. But he acts a lot like Meryl Streep The head nun in the movie Doubt doesn't he.

It seems quite the act of blind faith, very similar to religious martyrdome, on a small scale, to try to change the world by insulting non-believers (in what you believe) one at a time.

Which brings me to the point of the article.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 01:09 PM

Richard Bridge: when you say,"Has not religion done and does not religion do more harm than good?", it occurs to me that that same could be said of all of the institutions and enterprises constructed by humans. Regarding the acrimony that seems to underlie everything on this forum, might one not ask, "Has not Mudcat done, and does not Mudcat do, more harm than good?"

I think Mudcat is dying, since so much of what was good is gone, and so much of what is left is embodied in this thread. I, for one, will miss even the most contentious of you, so everybody, please leave a way that we can check up on you from time to time (though Steve Shaw, for instance, is one of a kind, there are many who use that name, so Googling doesn't help much).

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 01:16 PM

John P. If I bear shame it is for not explaining my opinion of the article more clearly. I do not fully buy the article's title which was chosen by the editors at salon, No doubt to stir controversy among readers and "trends" on the twitter. I do not think that "Militant atheism has become a religion" but it is really clear to me that some militant atheists take on some of the less appealing traits and tactics of religious zealots. You must know how difficult to have a non-confrontational talk about a religious subject on this forum without being called "superstitious" or "silly." I have been using the term "evangelical atheist" for a while, I don't know if I was the first to use it. But I think not. It is a pretty obvious term once you see one.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 01:23 PM

I think that "Mudcat is dying" would be a good subject for discussion on another thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Musket
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 01:32 PM

Perhaps you will pray for it?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 01:34 PM

The content of the article.

While I don't agree that the article proves the premise of the Salon.com title there are several gems in it that have enriched my understanding of evangelical atheism. There are also some interesting insights into primate behavior and into Mr Der Waal's upbringing. All in all I thought it was well worth the read and well worth bringing to anyone here who might care to. Including Mr. Shaw ;-)


Mrrzy asked...

"Although SOME atheists like churchiness, none are dogmatic; where would dogma come from? "


This is one of the places in the article where Franz der Waal addresses that point.

"Then there is the persistent myth that science trumps religion in every possible way, and that science distracts from religion, and vice versa, as in a zero-sum game. This approach goes back to nineteenth-century American polemists, who famously declared that if it were up to religion, we'd still believe in a flat earth. This was pure propaganda, however. Speculation about our planet's roundness began with Aristotle and other ancient Greeks, and every major scholar during the so-called Dark Ages was fully aware of it. Dante's "Divine Comedy" portrays the earth as a sphere, and the exterior panel of Bosch's Garden triptych takes an in-between approach by showing a flat earth floating in a transparent ball surrounded by a black cosmos. When it comes to evolution, too, there is a tendency to point at religion as a solid opponent while ignoring that the Roman Catholic Church never formally condemned Darwin's theory or put his works on the Index (the list of forbidden books). The Vatican has endorsed evolution as a valid theory compatible with the Christian faith. Admittedly, its endorsement came a bit late, but it is good to realize that resistance to evolution is almost entirely restricted to evangelical Protestants in the American South and Midwest."

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 01:35 PM

I pray for you Musket. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Musket
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 01:46 PM

Bless you my son.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 01:53 PM

The difference between agnostics and atheists is that the latter do have "a faith", by which I mean a settled belief about how the world works. If it's only provisional, a matter of "probably", or even "almost certainly", they are agnostics.

While in many parts of the world atheists may reasonably see themselves as battling against "a massive tide", that is hardly the case in England, at least in metropolitan England if anything it's the other way round, it. Is believers who are in that situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 02:02 PM

From the article.

"But I am not anymore. In my interactions with religious and nonreligious people alike, I now draw a sharp line, based not on what exactly they believe but on their level of dogmatism. I consider dogmatism a far greater threat than religion per se. I am particularly curious why anyone would drop religion while retaining the blinkers sometimes associated with it. Why are the "neo-atheists" of today so obsessed with God's nonexistence that they go on media rampages, wear T-shirts proclaiming their absence of belief, or call for a militant atheism? What does atheism have to offer that's worth fighting for?

As one philosopher put it, being a militant atheist is like "sleeping furiously.""

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Musket
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 02:11 PM

Just to be serious for a minute..

Religion is expanding and more people apply their religion to their everyday lives. Look at the rise of Islamic intolerance of others, look at Dumbfuckistan and their bible belt, look at UK religious leaders saying that discriminating against gay people isn't bigotry when you tell people Jesus thinks like they do...

No. It isn't militant atheism. It is seeing religious equality turning into religious privilege and that is worth resisting by intelligent people who prefer to be taught how to think rather than what to think.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Wesley S
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 02:18 PM

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that after several hundred posts that no one will change their viewpoints on this matter and nothing will be decided. But I could be wrong....

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: bobad
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 02:25 PM

"I once wanted to be an atheist but I gave up... they have no holidays." -Henny Youngman

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 02:35 PM

It's called the BS section, WesleyS, because no matter importance of the issue, the discussions themselves amount to...well, you know...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 02:37 PM

by which I mean a settled belief about how the world works

You're talking about science, perhaps? Science isn't a "belief" - its the way things are.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 02:42 PM

Wesley. I started the thread, changing viewpoints was not a goal. I just wanted to talk about a subject that interests me and introduce a few interesting ideas from the article. That part, IMHO is going well. The noise of the Mudcat is what it is.

I have had tinnitus since the 70's when I went to too any rock music clubs. I complain about the tinnitus now and then. It does exactly as much good as complaining about the fighting on the Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 02:43 PM

"Religion is expanding and more people apply their religion to their everyday lives."

That's a hard thing to pin down. One recent survey disagrees. It may be that many people are applying religious principles without strict adherence to a belief system.
I know that the polarization has been more obvious recently, and a number of issues have caused more confrontation in various cultures. I would not personally make any claims about an overall trend yet. It's easier to predict trends in climate change.

(That survey has been quoted and discussed on many different sites recently)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Musket
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 02:57 PM

Bang on Stim. It is called BS for a reason. Although look at those who complain when someone pisses on their bonfire. You'd think they were holding a real debate with real people.

We don't exist, silly.

Just like.........

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: theleveller
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 03:06 PM

"Why are the "neo-atheists" of today so obsessed with God's nonexistence that they go on media rampages, wear T-shirts proclaiming their absence of belief, or call for a militant atheism?"

Are they? The whole premise of the article rests on whether or not you actually believe that to be true. Personally I don't, so, to quote Sillitoe's Arthur Seaton, "….all the rest is propaganda".

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 03:46 PM

Almost all single issue stances, seem to acquire an aura of a crusade.
What I cannot understand is this compulsion towards total acceptance, whether one wants to, or not.
I adhere to the old Groucho Marx maxim, I wouldn't want to be a member of any club, that would accept me, as a member. Or words to that effect.
Why are y'all so deperate to be accepted, treated as normal?
Dare to be different, it's much more interesting!
People who agree with me, can be just as wrong as those who disagree with me.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 03:46 PM

TheLeveler,

The last part of the article revolves around a conference in Mexico where the author witnessed such things.

I think it is fair to say that things have happened which you have not witnessed. You lack of experience with them does not mean these things do not exist.

I am going to Google it.

Search 1 "Neoatheists

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Atheism

"The term is commonly associated with individuals such as Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett, Sam Harris, and Christopher Hitchens (together called "the Four Horsemen of New Atheism" in a taped 2007 discussion they held on their criticisms of religion, a name that has stuck),[2] along with Victor J. Stenger,[3] Lawrence M. Krauss and A.C. Grayling.[4] Several best-selling books by these authors, published between 2004 and 2007, form the basis for much of the discussion of New Atheism.[5]"

I have seen the "media rampages" myself on Youtube. Haven't you?

Search 2: "Atheist tee shirts."

There are plenty of them for sale. I can only speculate about who is wearing them but I suspect that many are being worn by atheists trying to push their point of view.

Search 3: "Call for militant atheism"

This video appears to be Richard Dawkins calling for militant atheism. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxGMqKCcN6A

I am satisfied that the author has made a point worth considering. If you read his arguments and consider them in context.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 03:49 PM

When asked, "Where is that smell coming from?" my biochemist roommate launched into a lesson about putriscine, cadaverine and the decarboxylation of lysine. He did not, however, explain why he'd put a raw chicken in a pan and left it in the cabinet next to the stove for a month.

This, to me, has always been the problem with science.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 03:51 PM

Excellent! Stim!!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 04:14 PM

Compelling arguments from Steve Shaw here. Obviously he has the not insignificant advantage that logic is on his side but, even so, his comments are extremely well expressed; not least his quarrel with Little Hawk's misappropriation of vocabulary.

Several times I felt moved to chip in with thoughts of my own, only to find that Steve has already expressed them. So it remains only for me to take issue with McGrath, whose characterisation of me as a person of faith is offensive. (The fact that I believe in no god makes me - if words mean anything - an atheist. Atheism, according to McG, is a faith.)

Wrong, McGrath. I interpret the evidence before us all as establishing that our universe evolved from a big bang. Many religious people accept the same. But that's sod-all to do with faith. If I am asked what came before the big bang or what caused it, I can say only that no supernatural force was necessary but that a supernatural force could nevertheless have been involved.

I do not go as far as Stephen Hawking, who has argued that no god could have brought about the big bang because before the big bang, time did not exist and therefore there was no time for any god to do his work. I don't go that far if only because I know the answer: God can do anything.

On what basis does McG presume to say that my thoughts about all this, or Hawking's for that matter, are a faith?

Incidentally I did read the linked article and considered it thoughtless. It doesn't need rocket science to understand why some atheists fight their corner more forcefully than the article's author apparently does.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: theleveller
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 04:24 PM

Jack, existence does not equal prevalence.

For instance:

http://theflatearthsociety.org/cms/


http://www.zazzle.co.uk/flat_earth_society_shirts-235093236610040717

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 04:24 PM

"I do not go as far as Stephen Hawking, who has argued that no god could have brought about the big bang because before the big bang, time did not exist and therefore there was no time for any god to do his work. "

If find this highly unlikely. It would indicate that Mr. Hawking does not know what a singularity is and that would be a surprise to me because I learned what a singularity is from Mr. Hawking's writings.

We, Mr. Hawking included, I would hope, who accept the definition of a singularity make no presumptions about what can occur within a singularity because by definition, we cannot know.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 04:30 PM

theleveller

Your post is very cryptic.

Please consider that I was quoting Mr der Waals argument about the source of the dogma. I think he made a reasonable point. I remember repeating that dogma myself and being very surprised to find that ancient Greeks had thought that the world was a sphere and had calculated the diameter.

I hope I addressed the correct point in this reply.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Lighter
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 04:55 PM

> "Why are the "neo-atheists" of today so obsessed with God's nonexistence that they go on media rampages, wear T-shirts proclaiming their absence of belief, or call for a militant atheism?"

De Waal must live in a unique area. For every outspoken atheist I've seen on American TV (few if any of whom I'd describe as "militant" and none wearing atheist T-shirts), I've seen a score of clergymen and lay fudamentalists, some of them raving about a so-called "War on Christmas" (which allegedly has been going on for at least a decade with no obvious success) and now a follow-up "War on Easter."

They seem to believe that Christians are, really, a persecuted minority.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: sciencegeek
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 05:11 PM

In college I had a friend who was a "vocal" atheist... who then became a "Jesus Freak", including the smiley button. I figured he had become an atheist to spite god and then repented. Whatever..

I spent 8 years in Catholic elementary school and finally gave up trying to be devout, or even Catholic. The hypocricy was more than I could stand... including my lip service to the dogma. The fact was and is that I just do not believe in any form of theology... that requires some faith, which I just do not have.

As long as someone doesn't try to shove their beliefs onto me, it's let's agree to disagree... don't put your religious dogma into laws that affect me... don't bomb folks who believe differently than you...

My feeling is that waging war over religion is as stupid/insane/pointless as fighting over belief in the tooth fairy.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 05:34 PM

"De Waal must live in a unique area. "

According to the article, suburban Atlanta. I have no doubt he has witnessed these things.

"Why are the "neo-atheists" of today so obsessed with God's nonexistence that they go on media rampages, wear T-shirts proclaiming their absence of belief, or call for a militant atheism?"

three quick Googles convinced me that they exist to some degree.

It is just one point in a much longer book.

I love the book title The Bonobo and the Atheist

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Lighter
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 08:20 PM

> I have no doubt he has witnessed these things.

Me neither. I just don't think his experience is typical of the whole country.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 08:57 PM

It is quite remarkable, having just got in after a long day, to see how the perpetrator of this thread has handled himself. First, he posts a link to a very long article from which he quotes about two lines and adds no comment of his own (why the hell did he post it at all, I wondered, apart from to say that here's a bloody great big long article which I agree with and I think I'll let it do all my work...) Then, of course, and risibly, when I responded he accused me of not reading it (odd, that, as it had occurred to me from his opening post that he'd only managed a quick bit of cherrypicking himself, but, as I didn't know that for sure, I thought better about saying it). During the day he's done what he should have done at the outset (stung into getting off his arse?) and revisited bits of the thing in order to comment on it.

Now I said that the article was of little interest and was a pain to wade through. Yer ex-Catholic, atheistic author simply expounds the tired old reactions to the alleged new atheism that has been trotted out so many times before. We neo-atheists (has he paused, by the way, to consider the inflammatory insult-potential of that stupid expression? Thought not!) are vehemently opposed to religion and resent its privileges in society. These atheists don't think that disbelief should be kept locked up in the closet. They speak of "coming out," a terminology borrowed from the gay movement, as if their nonreligiousness was a forbidden secret that they now want to share with the world. Well I never! He and Jack ought to get together, get out more and find us some of these miserable people. It is a lamentably poor characterisation, not even a caricature. In fact, they don't exist (and I know a lot of atheists who make so bold as to not keep conveniently silent about it). The writer's thesis that activist atheism reflects trauma. The stricter one's religious background, the greater the need to go against it and to replace old securities with new ones…… is just about the most stale part of a very stale article. The good old "bitter ex-Catholic" notion will always fill the gap nicely for a lazy non-thinker such as yer man, and why not take it a demonising step further and imagine that we're traumatised into the bargain. Nutty or what. We have inner demons to be kept at bay... in the same way that firefighters are sometimes stealth arsonists and homophobes closet homosexuals, [why] do some atheists secretly long for the certitude of religion? Not only do we harbour demons (so who needs demonising!), we lust after certitude. I told you, Jack, up the thread that neither Dawkins nor Shaw demands or requires certitude. Certitude is the enemy of atheism, stripping it of all its rationality. The article is full of absurdities but that one is the most wrong-headed of the lot. In this conversation all the certitude lies in the laps of believers (with honourable exceptions such as Joe). Your prayers, your hymns, your edicts, your traditions, what you tell your kids, and our towns and cities full of religious symbolism everywhere, are replete with certitude. Yet the most militant "neo-atheist" in the world says only that there is probably no God. Next, we are "poor listeners", then he goes on to ridicule a big university debate he went to. Well I'll tell you what. YouTube is full of Richard Dawkins debating religion and atheism in their various facets with all manner of eminent opponents, and I challenge you to find a more careful listener than he.

Jack, your article is more of the same old poppycock that says nice atheists are quiet and well-mannered (we can put up with them, they're OK) while the other sort are just petulant, demon-ridden, noisy morons. In a world in which religion is the default mode even in allegedly "secular" countries (which all have their mosques, synagogues and churches, decorated with God-glorifying symbolism shouting its questionable message to the world, not just to the flock, and "faith" schools to which parents may choose to send their unfortunate offspring in order to be indoctrinated just like they once were), you should be welcoming those few voices (and it ain't that many of us, let's face it!) that might just get a few more people not joining us (we ain't like that) but at least beginning to ask some of the right questions.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 09:08 PM

We, Mr. Hawking included, I would hope, who accept the definition of a singularity make no presumptions about what can occur within a singularity because by definition, we cannot know.

That's fine, as long as you will also agree not to think up the most unlikely fantasy-ridden stuff that breaks all the laws of nature and then tell us that we can't know it wasn't in that singularity. Chocolate teapots going round Mars and all that, you know?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 09:11 PM

"Me neither. I just don't think his experience is typical of the whole country. "

Which country? In the article he talks about an Englishman (Hitchens) at a conference in Mexico.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 09:13 PM

When asked, "Where is that smell coming from?" my biochemist roommate launched into a lesson about putriscine, cadaverine and the decarboxylation of lysine. He did not, however, explain why he'd put a raw chicken in a pan and left it in the cabinet next to the stove for a month.
This, to me, has always been the problem with science.

Hmm. Perhaps, in a kind way, he was gently persuading you to up your game a bit and learn enough science for you to avoid being taken in. It behoves us all, you know.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 09:16 PM

QWhich country? ANY country.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 09:34 PM

The difference between agnostics and atheists is that the latter do have "a faith", by which I mean a settled belief about how the world works. If it's only provisional, a matter of "probably", or even "almost certainly", they are agnostics.

An "atheist" who professes absolute certainty is not a proper atheist, just a twit. So, going from that and from what you say, there are not really any atheists at all. Certainly, Dawkins doesn't fit the bill, and neither do I. But I'm not bothered. In any case, "atheist" is an unfortunate word with negative undertones and I'll shed it without regret if you insist. But that leads to your next problem in that what you're left with, "agnostics", is woefully inadequate in expressing the spectrum of convictions from the debating almost-certain thinking near-atheist right down to the don't-give-a-shit-about-none-of-that-stuff bloke down the pub, with plenty of in-betweens. My view is that "agnostic" bears too much connotation of unsure fence-sitting blending to apathy. There a brand of lily-livered-ism, too, that passes for "agnostic", the insurance policy brigade. Just a thought. I can't really be arsed to argue the point, to be honest.   

While in many parts of the world atheists may reasonably see themselves as battling against "a massive tide", that is hardly the case in England, at least in metropolitan England if anything it's the other way round, it. Is believers who are in that situation.

It depends on whether you open your mouth. In our local paper yer in Cornwall where church and chapel hold sway, a brave chap frequently gets an atheistic polemic printed in the letters pages (lovely chap though he has too little regard for outcome, unfortunately). He gets plenty of flak and not a lot of support. I know we don't get shot at much or locked away for heresy these days. I'm not especially aware of believers having to fight back the tide. Not round here anyway. One thing you do NOT bring up down the pub is religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 09:38 PM

I would class your position as being agnostic, Peter K. And that I would not describe as a faith.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 09:52 PM

though Steve Shaw, for instance, is one of a kind, there are many who use that name, so Googling doesn't help much).

Just add the name of the instrument I play to "Steve Shaw"! If nothing else it'll persuade you that I'm a real geezer. You do have to wonder about some of the people round here... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 10:37 PM

Me: "I do not go as far as Stephen Hawking, who has argued that no god could have brought about the big bang because before the big bang, time did not exist and therefore there was no time for any god to do his work."

Jack: If find this highly unlikely.

Whoops - that must be blind faith, Jack, as the evidence that Hawking has put forward exactly that argument is there for all to read in The Grand Design, which he co-authored and you have obviously not read.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 11:39 PM

I find it much much less likely that you quoted him accurately. Because, if he did that he contradicted his own definition. Do you have any idea how many times some jackass misquotes a celebrity on the internet or even more common how many times a celebrity's name is falsely put on a quote?

Whoops, the problem I have with faith is with you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_singularity

"According to general relativity, the initial state of the universe, at the beginning of the Big Bang, was a singularity."

I have read Dr. Hawking say that we cannot know what is in a singularity because NO INFORMATION other than gravitation force escapes from a singularity. For the Big Bang singularity there was not even an external universe from which to measure it. You are saying that somehow, now by claiming that he has somehow measured or deduced the lack of the passage of time from measurements within this singularity and positively reported that there was none and that therefor there is no God.

I heard no report that he has a brain tumor and therefor I don't believe you. Sorry. Do you have the book? can you give me an exact quote so that I can look it up?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 11:43 PM

"An "atheist" who professes absolute certainty is not a proper atheist, just a twit"

To that "twit" definition I would a and atheist who bullies and taunts people about things he claim not to believe.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 12:05 AM

Peter K. I owe you an apology. Apparently Dr. Hawking did make the argument much as you described it Here it is.. I also commend you for not going that far.

It is a profoundly stupid argument. It can be easily counted with "Where did the singularity and all of the physical laws unfurled by the Big Bang come from?"

His very definition of time is as a measurement of time is basically the measurement of change in this Universe. It has no meaning before the Big Bang. But obviously the singularity existed to Bang before the Universe we know existed and something made it go Bang. And by his own definition of singularity he has no possible source of information about what caused the bang or how long it took to cause it.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 12:07 AM

Jack, your belief in what you think Hawking said is uplifting to uphold. Please don't be led astray by what is there on the printed page in his last book. Faith is a wonderful thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 12:08 AM

BTW the author of the link I posted makes some arguments against Hawking's statement as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: TIA
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 12:11 AM

Atheism cannot possibly become a religion if you understand both of those two words.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 12:12 AM

I guess we cross posted there. Your speculation about my "faith" is at least as far off as mine about Hawking.

I promise not to mock it with broad condescending stereotypes :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 12:21 AM

I don't think that the editors at Salon who created that title meant to be precisely literal. As I said before, it seems that they were being provocative.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 01:04 AM

Here's a very pious-sounding wish from the Pope Francis thread:

I can only hope---no I don't have the temerity to call it pray---for humans to continue to evolve psychologically past the social virus called religion.
Atheism, freedom and truth await.

Yes, I'll freely admit that there is much harm done in the name of religion, especially in the name of my Catholic denomination. Still, I know a huge number of intelligent, fair-minded, loving people for whom religion is a very important part of their life. They are quite possibly just as intelligent and insightful as our poster. But for them, religion has meaning and value. However, they have a different perspective than has our poster, and our poster finds that unacceptable.

If you look around at the religious people at Mudcat, very few of them have any desire to proselytize, or to "lord" it over anyone. For the most part, they just want to be left alone.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 01:47 AM

"For the most part, they just want to be left alone."

I like to be left alone to intelligently discus my religious feelings with my friends on the Mudcat. But Evangelical atheists keep coming on threads and as Steve Shaw puts it "taunting me" so when I saw the article I thought maybe this guy has seen what I have seen.

But no. His experience is different from mine in many ways. But the article had several interesting ideas, and the guy is a primatologist and I am a big fan of bonobos and monkeys. So I posted it anyway.

Some people were interested. Some people took it personally. Some people expressed tangential opinions. That is in my opinion how we got to this point.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: theleveller
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 04:24 AM

"theleveller

Your post is very cryptic."

Simply pointing out that, if you look for them, you can find all kinds of strange beliefs expressed on the internet and on t-shirts. That doesn't mean they are are prevalent. Most of my friends are non-believers; I read widely about religious subjects - but militant athiesim, as expressed in this article, is not something I've encountered. So I'm saying that this article is, in my opinion, based on a small minority of people. He may just as well have chosen flat-earthers to write about, or those who consider Startreck is a religion. But then, it is based on what happens in the USA. In Britain we don't take religion anything like as seriously. Seems to me he's just a journalist scratching around for a contentious subject to write about to make a fast buck.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 05:50 AM

Sailor Jack wants to be left alone to discuss religion with his mates.

Fair play.

But publicly posting on the BS section of Mudcat precludes blinkered debate as the grown ups may want to join in.

As is their right.

I have a fascination with religion. I remain fascinated how intelligent people can see it as relevant.   I have every right to explore my fascination and others have the right to tell me to bugger off.

Snag is, I remsin curious because if your God is omnipotent rather than impotent, he / she should be able to brush off the carping and ridicule of immature idiots like me.

Do why be so touchy? Why keep looking for protection and finding ways of dreaming that lack of superstition is some sinister plot?

You started the bloody thread. Don't complain about where it is heading. .

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: mayomick
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 09:23 AM

There are a load of these new proselytizing atheists out there, Leveller - they certainly DO exist.Very serious people intent on disproving the existence of Bertrand Russell's teapot.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: theleveller
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 10:14 AM

I'm not saying they don't exist - merely questioning whether they are as prolific as the article suggests. They don't seem to be a major force in the UK despite the fact that a majority of people do not now consider themselves to be religious and only 9% of the population regularly attends a church. That there are "a load" of "militant" atheists out there who are creating a new religion is totally fatuous.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ed T
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 10:29 AM

An interesting perspective on Buddhism, which some see as a religion, but may be more of a philosophy of life. I link it because, I observe that some Athiests are "coming together" and making initiatives to develop a form of life philosophy.

Buddhism-Religion or Philosophy of life?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: mayomick
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 11:58 AM

Perhaps it's just that these atheists are getting more organized, but I come across them all the time in Ireland - particularly in left-wing and academic circles. Some of them can be very insulting to religious people. About this time ,last year there was a "crucifixion party" organized as an alternative to Good Friday in Dublin by people claiming to be atheists . The crudest stuff imaginable and all done in the name of freedom of speech . A lot of these new atheists started to make their presence felt in support of the Danish anti-Muslim cartoons a few years ago, then started turning their attention to Christians .

I do agree that we're not witnessing the birth of a a new religion as such , but people could be forgiven if they see eratz religion : the proselytizing ,all the talk about secular ethics , the organizing of atheist Sunday services etc.......

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ed T
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 12:26 PM

IMO, it seems reasonable that there are a variety of perspectives among those who indicate thay believe in a God. Similararily, I expect there is a wide spectrum of perspectives among people who indicate thay do not believe in a God. My observation is there a whole lot of folks in the middle in both camps, who remain uncertain.

I suspect that more vocal folks in most movements are in the minority, not the majority. Rather than merely being comfortable with their own perspective, the actions of some seems to lean towards demonstrating some form of "surperior reasoning"? It seems to me that the focu is often to convert others to "see the light" of their viewpoint, rather than learning something from the perspectives of others?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: saulgoldie
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 12:45 PM

I don't care what religion or atheism anyone practices, as long as s/he does not force it on me by compelling me to perform certain acts or paying for it through my taxes. If Sikhs want to wear turbans, that is their business. If Muslim women choose to wear burkas, that is their business, and I am not hurt by it.

HOWEVER, if Christians want ten commandments--which ten, by the way?--placed on public ground, then it is an imposition on my freedom from religion. And I DO take offense at that. But militant? Like what, "preventing" them from believing in a diety? Or forcing them--how, by the way?--to say prayers or make pledges that are not their own? Or forcing them to ordain women?

Saul

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 12:57 PM

I can attest to the fact that he is absolutely right. The thing that some of you don't seem to understand is that over the last 40 years or so, a lot of religious fundamentalists, the "True Believers" have crossed over to the other side. Unfortunately, many of them have brought their dogmatic mindsets and their obsession with doctrine with them. They just embrace a different doctrine.

Back in the 60's, a friend of mine was fond of pointing out that just because somebody grew their hair long and smoked pot didn't mean that they'd stopped being a jerk. The rule still applies.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 01:00 PM

I like to be left alone to intelligently discus my religious feelings with my friends on the Mudcat. But Evangelical atheists keep coming on threads and as Steve Shaw puts it "taunting me"

You post an article about a currently contentious matter in the already-contentious arena of discussion of religion - and you want to be left alone?? Jack, dear fellow, the content of the article you posted is highly controversial. It's about atheism and atheists and it is critical of a certain category of atheist (as defined by the author). Are you really telling me you expected the atheists that you know inhabit this forum to step aside while you and your fellow-believers have a cosy little natter about us, in public, in a thread, right in front of us?

Incidentally, I'd be obliged if you could point out to me the post where I put it that "evangelical atheists" were "taunting you". I don't recall making such a remark.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 01:18 PM

The thing that some of you don't seem to understand is that over the last 40 years or so, a lot of religious fundamentalists, the "True Believers" have crossed over to the other side. Unfortunately, many of them have brought their dogmatic mindsets and their obsession with doctrine with them.

Well if this is true (and I seriously doubt that it's a widespread phenomenon, to be honest), I think your analysis here is facile. What are you calling a "dogmatic mindset" exactly? The term sounds suspiciously like a derogatory characterisation of people who like to speak their minds but who you've fallen out intellectually with. Why not call them people of conviction instead? Atheism, whether you like it or not, does not possess dogmatic equivalence with the authoritarian aspects of religious teaching. Actually, apart from our uninterest in God, there is no dogma at all (and even that isn't really dogmatic, as long as you're a real atheist - sorry, McGrath! - who acknowledges doubt). It isn't the right word. Really, calling atheists dogmatic is no more than irritated, aimless lashing out, is it? I'd even quarrel with "mindset". Anyone who has made the sea-change you refer to has smashed their mindset to smithereens. I can hardly think of a more radical conversion, and you can't achieve that by retaining a large part of your previous mental stiffness: you really do have to change everything in your thinking. Perhaps you think that a certain kind of person has mindset-rigidity built into their genes and the trait will manifest itself in whatever walk of life their next hobby-horse rears its head. And perhaps I'll disagree with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: theleveller
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 02:19 PM

The use of terms like "militant", "atheist" and even "religion" is an attempt to put people in a box that's convenient for the opinion that the author wishes to express. It's a well-known totalitarian strategy: only when you can classify and categorise people can you criticise and, ultimately, control them. Don't get me wrong, many people like to be in a box – it gives them their sense of identity and belonging. For me, it's the ultimate insult. So, on the very rare occasions when someone asks me my religious beliefs, I say that I'm a free-thinker. Politically, I'm a utopian anarchist. This allows others to form their own opinions, which it's easy for me to refute, whilst, at the same time, it allows me to modify what I think in line with any new information I come across or when I have a 'lightbulb' moment.

And whilst on the subject of modifying your beliefs, one of the most pertinent things I ever heard from a religious person was whilst listening to Thought for the Day on Beeb 4 some years ago. A C of E bishop, whose humanity and intellect I respect (but whose name, unfortunately, for the moment escapes me) said something to the effect that the only people who really frighten him are not those who have no faith or belief but those whose belief is so steadfast that they have stopped searching.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 02:36 PM

"when someone asks me my religious beliefs, I say that I'm a free-thinker"...
,.,.,..
I just say I haven't got any.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: saulgoldie
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 03:01 PM

I heerd a few years back that the evangelist was knocking on doors, looking for converts. He knocked on the door of a Unitarian (probably didn't see the "question mark" hedge in the front yard). He asked her if she was a Christian. She said, "Oh, I'm at least that!"

Saul

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 03:08 PM

"the only people who really frighten him are not those who have no faith or belief but those whose belief is so steadfast that they have stopped searching"

Well put. Most of the religious people I know are continually searching and asking further questions. That's why I enjoy being around them, because they are continuing to search, and they are not resting on their laurels or clinging to rigid dogma. This is also true of the non-religious people I most enjoy being around...that their minds aren't all made up and aren't tied to any absolute dogma, but are continuing to look to further possibilities.

It's the ones who figure they've got it all neatly tied up and have no further questions to ask who worry me. So I agree with the bishop you mentioned, "leveller".

I've always been a freethinker. That's a person who thinks freely, for himself, realizes that he doesn't have all the answers, continues to search, continues to ask questions, is not constrained by official lines of dogma..........whether religious or otherwise. A freethinker may be religious, he may be secular, he can easily be either one or the other.

My point being, M, that freethinkers are found within the religions as well as outside them. Some of the most courageous and thoughtful freethinkers I've ever know are also religious.

The enemy of the freethinker is the dogmatist, and dogmatists are found both within and outside of religions. The thing they all share is the rigid presumption that their way is the ONLY right way...and that everyone else is wrong, perhaps even evil! You see these dogmatists in extreme political movements of all kinds, acting with or without any connection to religion. You also see them in extreme religious sects and proponents of extreme philosophies. There is in them a strong element of fear allied with an intent to dominate others. They are the enemies of both freethinking religion AND freethinking secular life.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 03:20 PM

I'm just telling you how it is, Steve. What you think is, as always, your own business. As for myself, I will point out that it is as possible for people to be rigid, dogmatic and doctrinaire on any side of any issue.

And, actually, switching sides is not a radical conversion, because you're still playing the same game.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 03:36 PM

" merely questioning whether they are as prolific as the article suggests"

I don't think that the artist suggests that they prolific at all. I think that he points out that the do exist, that he is curious about them and that he saw some at a conference and he commented about that.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 03:40 PM

"The thing that some of you don't seem to understand is that over the last 40 years or so, a lot of religious fundamentalists, the "True Believers" have crossed over to the other side. Unfortunately, many of them have brought their dogmatic mindsets and their obsession with doctrine with them. They just embrace a different doctrine."

This is one of the points explored in the article.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 03:45 PM

"The use of terms like "militant", "atheist" and even "religion" is an attempt to put people in a box that's convenient for the opinion that the author wishes to express. "

I don't think that you need to be insulted by this. I think it was aimed at Chris Hitchens and those doing the same work.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 05:11 PM

I know that, Jack, but I also know that no one read the article. And no one read Eric Hoffer's "The True Believer", either.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 06:26 PM

...it is as possible for people to be rigid, dogmatic and doctrinaire on any side of any issue.

All you're missing there, Stim, is that there is no equivalence. Atheism is a logical response to everything we know; religion is wishful thinking: the primitive mind's solution for what we can;t yet grasp.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 06:41 PM

>>>...it is as possible for people to be rigid, dogmatic and doctrinaire on any side of any issue.

All you're missing there, Stim, is that there is no equivalence. Atheism is a logical response to everything we know; religion is wishful thinking: the primitive mind's solution for what we can;t yet grasp. <<

Interesting that the point is proved in the argument against it, name calling, rigidity and dogma in a single sentence.

Calling our minds primitive has no basis in fact and undermines your claim to logic.

As Bill D said, some things cannot be proven one way or the other. Claiming that you know absolutely is rigid dogma. Not even Mr Shaw, who you say expresses your views, goes that far.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 07:19 PM

Thanks for proving the point, PeterK!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ed T
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 07:48 PM

""It is rigid dogma that destroys truth; and, please notice, my emphasis is not on the dogma, but on the rigidity. When men say of any question, 'This is all there is to be known or said of the subject; investigation ends here,' that is death.It may be that the mischief comes not from the thinker but for the use made of his thinking by late-comers. Aristotle, for example, gave us out scientific technique ... yet his logical propositions, his instruction in sound reasoning which was bequeathed to Europe, are valid only within the limited framework of formal logic, and, as used in Europe, they stultified the minds of whole generations of mediaeval Schoolmen. Aristotle invented science, but destroyed philosophy.""
— Alfred North Whitehead, Dialogues of Alfred North Whitehead

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 08:58 PM

All you're missing there, Stim, is that there is no equivalence. Atheism is a logical response to everything we know; religion is wishful thinking: the primitive mind's solution for what we can;t yet grasp.

You beat me to it, Peter. Equivalence between religious belief and the shunning of same is a completely bogus invention of religion. If it weren't for the fact that we are undeniably flesh and blood, we would be no more than a figment of the imaginations of the faithful. And if there were no faithful, we, without doing a single stroke, wouldn't exist at all, and not one scrap of philosophy would have been lost.

And, actually, switching sides is not a radical conversion, because you're still playing the same game.

And what game would that be? Atheists, Stim, are not tacticians. We don't even make up teams. To play a game we need a pitch, but we have none. The only pitch is on your turf, which, of course, is exactly where you want us. But our evanescence will continue to elude you. We are only here because you need us here, a foil to your insecurity of belief. There is no game! There are no sides, no pitch, no teams, no tactics! We don't compete! Not much of a game, eh!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 09:08 PM

religion is....the primitive mind's solution for what we can't yet grasp.

I note that both Jack and Stim appeared to have taken offence at this, yet it is the exact position of religion, ironically, virtually as religion defines itself. We are not to question that which is beyond science. No matter how improbable, no matter how he breaks all nature's laws, God is God and faith must trump questions. Our feeble minds cannot grasp it. We must, instead, relish the mystery! It's a shame you don't care for what Peter said, considering that it's the very basis of and rationale for all religious belief. Aren't you both scratching your heads?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 09:21 PM

"Aren't you both scratching your heads?"

I might if I expected your to make sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 09:47 PM

I might if I expected your             to make sense.


Heheh...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ed T
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 10:02 PM

""Outside the practice of science itself, scientists have sometimes been the greatest offenders in adhering to dogmatic ideas against all the evidence"".
— Mary B. Hesse, Science and the Human Imagination: Aspects of the History and Logic of Physical Science (1955).

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ed T
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 10:09 PM

""I can still recall vividly how Freud said to me, 'My dear Jung, promise me never to abandon the sexual theory. That is the most essential thing of all. You see, we must make a dogma of it, an unshakable bulwark' ... In some astonishment I asked him, 'A bulwark-against what?' To which he replied, 'Against the black tide of mud'—and here he hesitated for a moment, then added—'of occultism'.""
— Carl Jung,Memories, Dreams, Reflections

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 10:22 PM

The most important bit of your two posts is the phrase "Outside the practice of science itself..." Vital to remember that charlatanism in science is not of science.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 12:01 AM

Dogmatism about Science to justify atheism. Dr der Waal would be pleased!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 01:02 AM

I am never truly offended by anything you say, Steve, because I don't take you very seriously. I hope you're not offended by that.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 01:39 AM

Militant atheism has become a religion


I'll believe that when it has a tax-free status.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 07:04 AM

Well I take you seriously. I respond carefully to what you post. Just because you may not like it, it doesn't mean my response wasn't serious. It means "I don't agree with you, and here's why..." I suggest that if you don't take seriously someone who takes you seriously, you'd better be careful that you're not taken for a fool.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 07:08 AM

Dogmatism about Science to justify atheism.

Anyone care to explain what this means?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Musket
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 07:16 AM

It means the same as anything else where the supernatural and metaphysical has to be shoehorned into rational debate....

Considering "science" doesn't justify anything other than what is observed and deduced, and considering no branch of science has, to my knowledge, proved that there is no intelligent force somewhere behind observing rats running in cages, it means Sailor Boy has been looking up words in his dictionary. In fact, all "science" has proposed is that the evidence doesn't fall in line with the scriptures organised religions depend on.

And that pisses off a few people. Mainly those who have comfort blankets and especially those who sell them.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 09:26 AM

It explains not being willing to look outside one's usual favorite habits and assumptions. It also means thinking that your usual way of doing things is the ONLY valid way of doing things, and that no other approach to life is even worthy of your consideration.

For instance, you might get a person who respects nothing except math and science and logic...and material things. (like my father)

How is he going to assess what is a good poem and what is not a good poem? Math, science, and logic will not assist him in doing so.

My father was incapable of assessing what is a good poem and what is not a good poem (and he freely admitted to this on one occasion I remember)...because it didn't fall in an area he could relate to...or wanted to relate to.

This didn't mean, ipso facto, that there are no good or bad poems, and it didn't mean that poetry has no value. It just meant he had no comprehension of what constitutes good poetry, and he never would, and his math, science, and logic couldn't do a thing to change that.

They are not the answer to everything in life. They are just the answer to some of the things in life, in the particular areas where they can effectively be applied. To think they ARE the answer to everything is to adhere to a form of fundamentalist dogmatism that is quite similar to the most dogmatic forms of religion, in that it thinks it already has all the answers to all the questions worth asking.

It doesn't. And it never will.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 11:48 AM

Ever explored all the possibilities love can bring??....Oh, it must not be....you can't see it








..unless you have eyes to see it.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 12:06 PM

I can't think of militant atheist on this forum who haven't is some way or another put forth BOTH of these ideas.

Science is only what can be observed.

I can proudly use Science as an ally to support my atheistic arguments.

Until they reconcile these things in their heads they will remain the intellectual equals of puppies chasing their tails.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 12:43 PM

Not sure how 'militant' an atheist I might qualify to be, Jack; but an avowed and convinced atheist is certainly what I am; and I have not, to the best of my recollection, mentioned the word 'science', or any synonym thereof, on this thread until now. I have no need of any sort of science to indicate to me what concepts I find unacceptable to what seems to me any world view of any conceivable rationality or intellectual respectability.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 12:46 PM

The thing is, Steve, you tend to trash others, and what you imagine their beliefs to be, rather than simply expressing your own. You tend to tilt at windmills, which, can either be amusing or annoying, depending on the weather...and so it goes...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: mayomick
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 12:51 PM

The words "dogma" , "dogmatic" "doctrine" and "doctrinaire" only ever seem to get used these days in their negative, pejorative senses - to denote hidebound, uncritical ways of thinking. But there is an element of dogma and doctrine in all systematic attempts to explain the world, whether the attempts are scientific or mystical: the passing-on of any firmly held opinion through teaching must necessarily involve dogma and doctrine to some extent. The early doctors of the church taught and passed on a body of knowledge to seminarians, doctors of science did, and still do, the same thing. The notion of the world being supported on the back of a giant turtle was dogma for people in some parts of the world, as was the Garden of Eden myth for Christians .Things have moved on, but I wouldn't deny that the idea of humans being descended from lower life forms isn't dogma for those who espouse the theory of evolution. It is for me, because without that central idea, the whole theory of evolution collapses.


The problem I have with new atheists is about the insulting language they use to religious people, not the fact that they hold strong opinions on the issue of evolution. I agreed with a lot of what the article said, but thought that it over-emphasized the similarities between the supposed "rigid mindsets" of protagonists on either side of this debate. By putting an equals sign between two sets of rigid "doctrinaires" it could leave readers with the impression that the evolution versus creationist controversy is really nothing more than two sets of blinkered antagonistic dogmatists slugging it out over which side of the same coin is more valid.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 12:54 PM

MtheGM

I can't recall having seen you chase your own tail in these arguments. I can't recall you being militant or mean when you engage in them.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 01:21 PM

Musket,

There is a difference between wanting others to show some maturity and not piss on my bonfire and having them actually show some maturity and stop doing so.


Musket said..

"Although look at those who complain when someone pisses on their bonfire."

Perhaps we ought to consider the credibility and motives of those who consider their own contributions to the discussion as "pissing on a bonfire."

Musket said...

"Sailor Jack wants to be left alone to discuss religion with his mates.

Fair play.

But publicly posting on the BS section of Mudcat precludes blinkered debate as the grown ups may want to join in.

As is their right.

I have a fascination with religion. I remain fascinated how intelligent people can see it as relevant.   I have every right to explore my fascination and others have the right to tell me to bugger off.

Snag is, I remsin curious because if your God is omnipotent rather than impotent, he / she should be able to brush off the carping and ridicule of immature idiots like me.

Do why be so touchy? Why keep looking for protection and finding ways of dreaming that lack of superstition is some sinister plot?

You started the bloody thread. Don't complain about where it is heading. . "

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 01:21 PM

The thing is, Steve, you tend to trash others, and what you imagine their beliefs to be, rather than simply expressing your own. You tend to tilt at windmills, which, can either be amusing or annoying, depending on the weather...and so it goes...

You post little one-point posts on the whole. A couple of times recently you've posted condescending stuff such as the above. The irony of your trying to trash me in this manner, whilst at the same time complaining about my alleged trashings, is completely lost on you, I suppose. My posts tend to be a bit more involved than yours, picking up on what someone has said and dissecting it carefully. If you think that amounts to trashing I might have to disagree. In the cases where, weak sod that I am, I respond to silly posts with sarcasm, it still isn't trashing. The poster of the silly post has already trashed himself before I even get there. Now why don't you just address things point by point as they come up?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 01:56 PM

Science is only what can be observed.

That is the first time I've seen that wacky notion expressed here. Science cheerfully and openly expresses its shortcomings and gaps in knowledge. Science acknowledges that certain phenomena have yet to be properly observed because we have yet to develop the means to properly observe them. Science accepts that theories have to be under constant review as new knowledge comes to light. Good science knows no dogma. Dogma is the enemy of good science. Wow, Jack. Doesn't all that make your little sentence above look so dismal. It's a good job you don't actually think it. And neither does anyone else.

I can proudly use Science as an ally to support my atheistic arguments.

You do not "use" science to support anything. Science is neutral. What you do is to subject assertions made to you to the rigour of science. Now whilst science acknowledges its own gaps (see above), it is still perfectly valid to check assertions made to you against the bar of evidence. It can be quite a high bar. Your assertion may not satisfy every demand of evidence but it may do so sufficiently to be allowed as a hypothesis or theory. Those two words simply express notions that are of interest to science because, at least in part, until further evidence comes to light, they can yield to exploration via the scientific method. All good stuff. But it is possible to make an assertion that can never yield to scientific enquiry. The existence of God is one such. He is defined in such a way as to be not only outside the laws of nature but also to be beyond investigation. Now this is quite a serious matter. It doesn't take the average scientist long to accept that there isn't much point pursuing the existence of God as a scientific project. Do you see? Science at this juncture has parted company with God. They don't even connect tangentially. They can't communicate. You can't use science either to prove or disprove God because the two simply don't see each other.

Now my problem as an atheist is, who actually defined God in that way? Was it people? Or did someone come down to primitive Man in a chariot of fire and permanently imbue him with the God notion? I'm a little suspicious that God was deliberately designed to be both above all natural laws and inaccessible. A God of that kind can never be challenged. His truth cannot be undermined. Those tenets are enshrined in the major religions. Further embellishments to the story turn God into someone who intervenes and who can be quite authoritarian. That is also rather useful to big religion. So my suspicions stack up. I turn back to the only rational means I know, the scientific method, to assess all the evidence. And find it wanting. Absent, in fact. That's what makes an atheist an atheist. Note that at no time do I say that God does not exist.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 02:01 PM

"You do not "use" science to support anything."

I don't know who the "you" is that Mr. Shaw is talking to. But Mr. Steve Shaw on this forum does it all the time. Keep and eye out for it folks. You will see it soon, even though after reading this he will try his best not to do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 02:15 PM

""The words "dogma" , "dogmatic" "doctrine" and "doctrinaire" only ever seem to get used these days in their negative, pejorative senses - to denote hidebound, uncritical ways of thinking.""

Not just the word in many cases Mick, but also the systems they describe, and the people whose mindset they describe, are hidebound and uncritical.

Almost every scientist is busily trying to change previous theories by gaining new knowledge and producing new ways of looking at just about everything in his own area of expertise in the Universe.

Hardly hidebound or uncritical and definitely neither doctrinaire, nor a follower of dogma.

Can you say the same of those who rely on "You've got to have faith"?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 03:00 PM

"You do not "use" science to support anything."

I don't know who the "you" is that Mr. Shaw is talking to. But Mr. Steve Shaw on this forum does it all the time.

Silly Billy.

Everything (except God, of course) is of science. It's a nonsense to say that you support things with science. The things are science. It's like saying my bones support my skeleton. Notions and assertions can be tested against the scientific method to see whether they make the evidence bar. If they do, it doesn't mean they are supported by science. It means they are worthy of being called hypotheses, or theories, that's all. It means they are supported by some evidence. Note the implicit uncertainties. 'Tis those that make science such a joy.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: bobad
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 03:01 PM

Just thought I'd throw this in here as a semi-relevant interest item:

'Atheist' shoe company claims U.S. Postal Service is discriminatory
By Stephen C. Webster
Wednesday, March 27, 2013 14:00 EDT

Using an incredibly clever infographic, a shoe company in Germany revealed this week that they conducted a study which found that boxes shipped to the U.S. with tape that reads "ATHEIST" were much more likely to be delayed or lost en route than packaging without the label.

The company, which is actually called Atheist Shoes, specializes in selling ostensibly handmade shoes that declare one's nonbelief in a deity.

"We have lots of customers in the USA, but sometimes the shoes we send them take longer than they should to arrive, or even go missing," a post on the Atheist Shoes website explains. "And when some of our customers asked us not to use ATHEIST-branded packaging tape on their shipments, we started to wonder if the delays were caused by the US Postal Service taking offence at our overt godlessness…"

They planned to test this theory with an ingenious bit of marketing zeal: they would mail two packages to 89 different people in 49 states, one with the ATHEIST tape and one without, and see how many arrive and how long it takes.

The results: Packages with ATHEIST tape took three days longer to arrive on average, and were 10 times more likely to never make it to their destination. The company added that they conducted similar tests in Germany and across Europe that exhibited no such bias.

"Interestingly, this seems to be a national problem — traditionally less religious and more liberal states also saw high levels of delay and disappearance," they wrote. "Sadly, many of our customers who took part in this experiment were not surprised by our findings, even thought tampering with post is a Federal Offence."

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Musket
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 03:13 PM

Hello Sailor!

Thanks for repeating my post. Perhaps if you type it out next time rather than cut and paste, it might just? ... Naw.

Militant? What do you mean by that? You're the one with the position to defend. I merely have to ask you for proof of your belief and that settles that. Militant? No. Just rational.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 04:04 PM

"I merely have to ask you for proof of your belief and that settles that."

Yet you have yet to do so. Because you would rather mock and snipe? Very irrational.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 04:33 PM

I do tend to post little, one-point posts, Steve. I find that it's better than posting big, pointless ones.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 05:06 PM

There is a misinterpretation of militant atheism which I don't think is real. Any refutation of religion is going to be interpreted by believers as militant as it offends what they think people should believe.

Dawkins has been accused of being "militant" when I think he is just reasonable.

Atheism can never be a religion because there is no unilateral thought that guides it.
Every atheist is slightly different in their objection to religion.

Every atheist I know, and I have known quite a lot, is not militant but searching and seeking a rational way to view the world. They are open to science which is always evolving and changing and never as dogmatic as any religious tenet.

This "militant atheism as a religion" is a propaganda device delivered by those who object to anyone who objects to their religious beliefs as being "universal".

You can't use science to support something that isn't real but is only in the minds of believers.

The logical fallacy remains, you can't support a negative in a discussion. The existence of a god is a negative. You can't prove it.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 05:19 PM

Stringsinger


It is apparent that you have not read the article, or the thread. You read two words, attached your own assumed meaning to them and dismissed them with self-referential logic. Thank you for your opinion, such as it is.

BTW here is a commonly accepted definition of "religion."

Please can you please provide a definition that requires the use of "unilateral thought to guide it" whatever that may be?

re·li·gion
/riˈlijən/
Noun

    The belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, esp. a personal God or gods.
    Details of belief as taught or discussed.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: mayomick
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 06:59 PM

Don
My problem with some of the old atheists on this thread is their insistence on some sort of an ideal scientific mindset . Many of the qualities describing the supposed "dogmatic mindset" here are actually essential to the working scientist -rigidity certainly is. Sometimes a scientist has to be stubborn in the face of new ideas- remember there was that UK scientist last year who swore to eat his underpants if a CERN experiment disproved Einstein. Even faith to some degree : in the course of their work scientists have to be confident that they're not completely off the mark in their experiments ,after all .

The real problems for science aren't mediaeval mindsets, but present-day lack of resources. Science isn't geared towards looking to the Universe . Almost all scientists are busily engaged in trying to secure work in industries that have little or no interest in new ways of looking at anything other than ways of staying afloat. When industry has no need for scientists , state funding for the teaching of science in schools dries up.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ed T
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 07:26 PM

I post this because it refers to a survey that I see related to the topic. (Hopefully, it contributes to the discussion, rather than takes away from it).

The only information I get from the site host is he seeks increased political influence for Athiests and Agnostics. This seems to put his affiliation in a political camp, rather than a religious one - does it not?

It seems puzzling to me is some Athiests/Agnostics (or at least the one hosting the site) see those who identify as having no particular religious affiliation as being "in the same camp". To me, this is a big "leap of faith",(excuse the pun;) and such a determination would require much more investigation - as I suspect it is more complex than that.

   


Pew report

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 07:28 PM

I do tend to post little, one-point posts, Steve. I find that it's better than posting big, pointless ones.

Ah yes, a typical Stim post! So witty, yet so bereft of content! Would you at least admit that, unlike you, I put a bit of effort into mine?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 09:11 PM

Better to be be witty and bereft of content than protractedly so.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 09:35 PM

Stim, better to keep silent and be thought a fool than open your mouth and prove it...

Do let us know when you have anything you'd like to discuss.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Amos
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 11:22 PM

There's nothing religious about atheism, which is esentially the belief that a particular spiritual proposition has been found wanting for lack of evidence. Let's not go distorting definitions just for the sake of argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 03:25 AM

Please read the article Amos. I think you will find it interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 03:30 AM

"Ah yes, a typical Stim post! So witty, yet so bereft of content! Would you at least admit that, unlike you, I put a bit of effort into mine? "

I don't think that is evident at all.

"I didn't have time to write a short letter, so I wrote a long one instead."

So wrote Mark Twain.

You don't even try to keep your opinions consistent within threads. You constantly repeat yourself. What ever bubbles up in your snarky mind seems to find its way directly through your fingers to this forum.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Musket
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 06:34 AM

Hey! Yes you! As a Mudcat member, you too can have a hobby!

All it takes is these two simple steps;

1. Start a thread in full knowledge it will insult the intelligence of rational people.

2. Attack everybody who points this out.

You too can be the centre of attention at all the parties you throw at ___________ (insert address or ship name) and after all, this has at least one advantage over self abuse, it won't impede your passage to heaven! Win, Win!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 07:09 AM

One of Jack's main moans is that I'm inconsistent. But all he ever does is say I'm inconsistent. Whenever I ask him how I'm being inconsistent he never answers. It's literally what a parrot does: chunters out the same phrase again and again but can never expand on it. I suppose I could take the Jack/parrot analogy further but I'll leave it there for now...


There's nothing religious about atheism, which is esentially the belief that a particular spiritual proposition has been found wanting for lack of evidence. Let's not go distorting definitions just for the sake of argument.

Well I might substitute "conclusion" for "belief" but otherwise that'll do me, Amos.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 08:36 AM

No sooner said the Earth is round,
And formed from dark and void,
When up spake Harry in the back,
'You twit, it's ellipsoid!'

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 09:36 AM

I wonder if the thoughts of men
Who wax so scientific,
Are really just religious ploys
For causes beatific;
And whether gods are playing games
With darkness tenebrific,
And mortals locked in helices
Of soundings so specific.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 10:02 AM

It's not fair, really. We religious people have to work HARD for many years to form a good relationship with God. We have to engage in study, contemplation, self-examination ("the unexamined life is not worth living"), meditation, prayer, good works, self-discipline, the development of a degree of humility, recognition of the divine not only in oneself but in others too, acceptance of responsibility toward others as equals...it's a long and arduous course.

While all the atheist has to do to find God is...look in the mirror!

This is what my father did every day. He got up, looked out upon His worldly dominion with satisfaction, knowing He that was sovereign over all of it, went to the washroom, and looked at the face of God in the mirror while He shaved Himself. He then exercised His Godly and omnipotent powers over all the poor fools, dullards, and other lesser beings in His world for the rest of the day. Every day. He ruled!!!

It's so much simpler and less demanding than the religious life! And you get to be "Number One". And you're always right, and other people are always wrong. Bonus! No wonder it's become such a popular lifestyle choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 10:35 AM

You forget that most men are married, regardless of whether they have irrational fear and doubt.   If you don't have God to tell you how to live you still have a wife.

Joking apart, there are people out there who actually think that not being religious is vanity.   Honestly, hanging is too good for them...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Amos
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 11:39 AM

Dogmatism is not equal to religiosity. Some dogma are religious and some religionists are dogmatic, but they are not identical sets. Religion is not the ONLY form of irrationality around, after all!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 11:43 AM

It's worse than vanity, mate! It's sheer appalling hubris and overweening egotism of the most extreme sort. ;-) It's thinking that YOU are the center and source of everything important, which is exactly what every ego loves to think about itself. It's thinking that you're the boss.

Great philosophers and great theologians are aware of this problem that arises with ego, but the average man is not, because he's been quite sure that he was the centre of everything important right from the moment he first drew breath as a wailing infant. This makes his life a survival/competition game...that is, "survival of the fittest" (or the most devious)(or the cleverest)(or the richest)...and from that is derived pretty much every ugly, sordid, and brutal aspect of human life. The ego's triumph is to assert that it is number 1 and it plays the game to WIN. Anyone who wants to be number 1 surely doesn't want a God in the picture, do they? That would imply that they're not number 1, and it would also make it incumbent upon them to treat others as they would wish to be treated themselves, given that others are just as valuable in the sight of God as they are.

You're right that most men have a wife. However, my father was never under the impression that his wife was in charge of how he was going to live. Hardly. ;-) The man was as self-governing as Genghis Khan. As for his wife, my mother, she was equally self-absorbed and determined to have things HER way, so they butted heads for an entire lifetime and both had it THEIR way...in most respects...although my father did so to a greater extent, being utterly oblivious to anyone else's "way". I have seldom seen a more flagrant case of 2 grimly determined egos in my life than those two. And never for a moment did religion play any part in their lives. They managed to make a Hell for themselves entirely without religion.

I was not well impressed.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 01:05 PM

It's not fair, really. We religious people have to work HARD for many years to form a good relationship with God. We have to engage in study, contemplation, self-examination ("the unexamined life is not worth living"), meditation, prayer, good works, self-discipline, the development of a degree of humility, recognition of the divine not only in oneself but in others too, acceptance of responsibility toward others as equals...it's a long and arduous course.

While all the atheist has to do to find God is...look in the mirror!

Ah, this demonisation of atheists by Christians is a dirty business. Unfortunately for "you religious people", it isn't only "you religious people" who take that long and arduous course. Not only that, a goodly number of "you religious people" don't take it in any case. Now get yourself off to confession: the "degree of humility" bit of the course didn't work in your case.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 01:41 PM

So, can atheists actually be good musicians??...after all, 'they ain;t got no soul'!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 01:49 PM

In the original post, our resident Jack tar stated that he has a thesis that the more 'atheist' you are is a reflection of how a religious past you had. Correct me if I read that wrong?

When he bandies the word around perhaps he gets confused between being anti religion ie nobody should have an imaginary friend and not being impressed when religion is allowed to influence laws affecting rational people who don't buy into such nonsense.

Examples here in The UK include Sunday opening, easter being moved around the calendar regardless of how illogical it makes the spacing of public holidays and not having to abide by laws set up to protect people on equal terms.

If people want to collectively hug each other in a drafty old church and sing chants that would make Charles Wesley cringe, no problem. If there are people saying that is wrong or that Muslims shouldn't have a quick time out for Friday prayers, then they should be repelled every bit as much as those who would wish law to reflect religious interpretation.

I just think some of the more sanctimonious Mudcat brethren can't tell the bloody difference. ..

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 01:55 PM

The straw man you chaps are battling here is one of your own creation.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 02:22 PM

"Correct me if I read that wrong?"

Your read wrong. The statement was in quotes. Is is one of the theses of the article. It is defended in the article. I put it there so people might be curious and read the article.

I find the article interesting. I think it parallels a lot of the behaviors I see here. Politically, my beliefs, Joe Offer's beliefs, Little Hawk's beliefs are no threat to science or the beliefs of any other person. Why are we mocked? Why are we taunted? Why are childish tantrums thrown when we express them.

Why do apparently otherwise sane people give themselves license to throw any any semblance of self-restraint and civility.

Could this be why? From the article. ....

"All I get out of such exchanges is the confirmation that believers will say anything to defend their faith and that some atheists have turned evangelical. Nothing new about the first, but atheists' zeal keeps surprising me. Why "sleep furiously" unless there are inner demons to be kept at bay? In the same way that firefighters are sometimes stealth arsonists and homophobes closet homosexuals, do some atheists secretly long for the certitude of religion? Take Christopher Hitchens, the late British author of "God Is Not Great." Hitchens was outraged by the dogmatism of religion, yet he himself had moved from Marxism (he was a Trotskyist) to Greek Orthodox Christianity, then to American Neo-Conservatism, followed by an "antitheist" stance that blamed all of the world's troubles on religion. Hitchens thus swung from the left to the right, from anti–Vietnam War to cheerleader of the Iraq War, and from pro to contra God. He ended up favoring Dick Cheney over Mother Teresa."

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 02:35 PM

""It's so much simpler and less demanding than the religious life! And you get to be "Number One". And you're always right, and other people are always wrong. Bonus! No wonder it's become such a popular lifestyle choice.""

Perhaps, if you ha spent a little time under the control of the Jesuit brotherhood, you would recognise your father in them also.

That attitude and behaviour is by no means limited to those who are non religious, and neither is any human fault, foible, or vice you can recall.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 03:25 PM

"neither is any human fault, foible, or vice you can recall."

Why attack religious people for being like every other human unless you have a personal beef with religion?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ed T
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 03:51 PM

I understand the word dogmatism.

But, what is the definition of godmatism?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 05:45 PM

"Militant atheism has become a religion"????

Hard to say...atheists seem so devoutly religious, spending massive amounts of time and energy deeply meditating on battling the center of nothing...then disappointed that they couldn't feel a victory!!!...THEN screaming at others that there is no nothing they could find in all of it!

That's why they make so much sense....eh??

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 05:45 PM

"Militant atheism has become a religion"????

Hard to say...atheists seem so devoutly religious, spending massive amounts of time and energy deeply meditating on battling the center of nothing...then disappointed that they couldn't feel a victory!!!...THEN screaming at others that there is no nothing they could find in all of it!

That's why they make so much sense....eh??

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 06:53 PM

Militant anything becomes religion. Religions do not require logic or reason save in the confines of their self-established parameters. Jesus said, Mohammed said, Moses said, Confucius said, etc. Who cares? You weren't there to hear it and so your assertions about what they said is based on what someone else says someone else says someone else heard. Recall when GWB said there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. Instant religion. A new crusade. And over 100,000 souls sent to say hi to their respective makers. The banks are failing, our money is worthless, we need more more more. The almighty dollar became the new face of the world religion and money itself became the new prophet to worship. Fuckin' spare me. Join the Westboro Baptist Church. Brilliant PR and stupid eyes. I heard that Ann Coulter is their High Priestess and Dick Cheney their Pope.

Really.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 07:46 PM

...and Barrack Obama is...what?? Their false prophet??...or Messiah??

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 07:53 PM

The thing is, GfS, you took that as though it was addressed to you. It wasn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 08:11 PM

Not too good that, o Guest. There's a complicated picture here all right. About half the world's people adhere to one or the other major religions. I happen to think that religious belief is deluded. I have no time for bogus disciplines such as theology (am I losing friends??). I think that organised religion is, first and foremost, a very earth-bound way of keeping people in check (and it works far better and for far longer than any political regime in history, no matter how authoritarian, you can name). But here's the thing. I really would like to change the world, but I will never do it. So I need a different gambit. It's best not to call masses of people deluded. They are, in most aspects of their lives, no such thing, and I'd better confront that. Better to assert that religious belief is deluded (a notion from which I cannot be swayed) but that people, on the whole, are just fine, because (uncomfortable though it may be for big religion) religious belief informs people's everyday lives in only the slightest, most tangential way, on the whole (I know there are exceptions, of course). Their path is not mine, but their end result may be just as "good" (go on, argue...) as mine. If I don't acknowledge that, I've lost the argument. Having conceded a fair bit there, I then turn sharply around and tell believers that they'd better shut up about their faith imbuing them with their moral framework. That is the most pathetic thing I've ever heard. Find one atheist with superb moral values and that bogus tenet is immediately shot to pieces. You do not need religion to be good. Some very bad people claim to be religious and some very good people have no interest in the Almighty. And vice versa, of course. Next, I find it very tiresome when I hear religious people rattling on about their "spirituality". If you boast about your spirituality, as one or two people here are wont to do, what you are actually saying is that you have assumed for yourself a mysterious dimension to your existence that raises you above the other poor souls around you. There is nothing more conceited than claiming that you are a "spiritual person". Get off your arse and tell us what you are actually on about! I love nature. I'm an expert on the wild flowers of the British countryside and I know loads about birds and butterflies as well. I've taught myself about geology and meteorology too, and I have a stunning collection of cloud photographs. I can go outside right now and show you where that new comet is supposed to be (bloody clouds...) I'm not swanning around like some around here telling people how spiritual I am. I'm out there loving all that I see around me and I can't get enough of it. That leaves me precious little time for contemplating my spiritual navel. I have a bit more time to waste posting to this forum at the moment because of my bad back, but once that gets fixed I won't have time for this! I love the music of Bach, Beethoven and Mozart, and my knowledge of the latter two would lose most people. I never miss a chance to visit local churches and cathedrals alike and I stood in front of a Titian Madonna for half an hour last year, transfixed. Spiritual was it? Of course not! Mysticism is in the eye of the conceited delusionals only. I have never had a vision, an out-of-body wotsit or a transcendental moment that I haven't managed to come back from (helped, perhaps, by the fact that I have never taken an illicit drug in my sheltered life). The Lord hath never appeareth unto me, nor hath he spake unto me in a dream. My back's wrecked, my tinnitus plagues me and I was born with bad bones. But I'm here and because I'm here I'm a winner. What I've got is great, and a damn sight better than what most people have got (though a bit more more Talisker would be useful), and I don't need no God to pester for even more!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 08:20 PM

It's taken a few years, Steve, but at last we agree on something. Bless you my son.

The fookin' Irish are as hard-headed as Newfies.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 08:30 PM

Who are you, dad?

Flippin, 'eck, I didn't half go off on one there. Cor.

But does anyone see that as an atheist manifesto? I hope not! But it's my bloody atheist manifesto and I've just read it back to myself and I'm wondering where all that rabid militancy is supposed to be.

"You go your way, I'll go mine, judge me as to whether I'm being good and I promise not to call you deluded. I will not promise not to call your beliefs deluded, because you'd rather I told you the truth, eh? Now, let's talk about evidence..."

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 09:04 PM

'But does anyone see that as an atheist manifesto?'

Not I. It is but a chimera in a drop of water, relegated to our thoughts.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 09:41 PM

As a btw, Shaw, you are brilliant.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 09:54 PM

Flattered though I potentially am, I'd still like to have an inkling as to who you are. Any danger...?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 11:49 PM

Guest: "The thing is, GfS, you took that as though it was addressed to you. It wasn't."

Thing is, I don't know what you are talking about, nor how you arrived at that conclusion....???

Steve Shaw: "I love the music of Bach, Beethoven ...."

Hmmm....Do you really want to re-visit Beethoven's quotes again??....Aw, why not???.......Beethoven. (when asked how he could come up with the music that he did):""No friend have I. I must live by myself alone; but I know well that God is nearer to me than others in my art, so I will walk fearlessly with Him."

And: ""Music is the mediator between the spiritual and the sensual life."

And: "The vibrations on the air are the breath of God speaking to man's soul. Music is the language of God. We musicians are as close to God as man can be. We hear his voice, we read his lips, we give birth to the children of God, who sing his praise. That's what musicians are."


Maybe he wasn't really a musician....OR maybe he didn't know what he was talking about...OR he just said those things to piss you off...Ya' think???

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 11:58 PM

The thing is, GfS, you took that as though it was addressed to you. It wasn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 12:03 AM

Mudelfs, would you please either delete or identify the the cowardly GUEST, trying to slur my ethnic group.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 12:29 AM

It was a joke, Jack. Newfoundlanders are not an ethnic group. They mostly are displaced Irish people.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 12:38 AM

Please delete or identify this coward.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 01:13 AM

Like the angel said, Steve, "you've led a wonderful life."

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 03:02 AM

Guess: "Like the angel said, Steve, "you've led a wonderful life."
..angel from where???

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 03:05 AM

Someone is getting touchy again. ..

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 09:26 AM

Guffers rears his clottish head again! Old chap, I know better than to get mired with you in discussions of anything remotely serious. On that score thou hast shat in your own bed one too many times. Suffice to say that I do not admire my heroes of art or science for what they did or said outside the spheres for which they are most noted. I'll even put up with a bit of murkiness (Furtwangler and Richard Strauss were fabulous, though both had questionable connections with the Nazis. They just about pass my test. Wagner was a horrible man, antisemitic and racist, and would have made a good Nazi. I won't have his music in my house. I have got a red line). Riposte all you like, Guffo. I won't be responding. I have no intention, you see, of sitting at this keyboard of mine having to question my own sanity.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 03:36 PM

That's indicative of someone who has nothing to say worth anything....and who can't answer, if the bias isn't going his way...and his bias is away from reality.
...yeah, Beethoven didn't know what Beethoven was talking about, he should have checked first with Steve!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,GUE
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 03:44 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 06:36 PM

"cosy Christian line"


Didn't take long for our beloved Mudcat atheists to show their true colors. Always the soul of tolerance, never attacking someone else's beliefs,   open to new perspectives and not in the least dogmatic.

Right.

And I'm the president of the US or the king of England, take your choice.

Looks like the OP had it right.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 08:08 PM

Yeah, damn those miserable athiests anyway! Who do they think they are, behaving just like fundagelical "Christians"[sic]!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 10:41 PM

Personally, I like where Beethoven was plugged into....and he even showed up with proof!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 02:35 AM

Ah, yes, dear old Ludwig v is the best example you people could possibly choose to make your case. He loved and served his god all his life; who showed his reciprocal love & appreciation by rewarding him with the worst affliction a man of his calling could possibly suffer and left him to get on with expressing his worship the best he could for the rest of his miserable life. Why, what a dear kind old deity you poor people do believe in and choose to lavish your love on, to be sure.

Is that 'militant' enough atheism for you, just for once and despite what I said about it above? If so, sorry Jack. But don't any of you dare to accuse me of having a 'religion'!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 03:27 AM

Ron Davies adds his name to the list of those who feel threatened by reality. Cosy little Christian indeed. ..

Atheism does not describe a wish to rid the world of religious superstition. Communism fits that bill perfectly, but then only as a perceived threat.

Today, Christians celebrate something that never happened. An executed criminal coming back to life. Wonderful metaphor and of use as a story with a moral, although the actual moral escapes me. As does messing the rest of us around with the date. It would make more sense to pick a date and stick to it if the rest of us have to plan industry downtime on it.

But that's the point really, isn't it? Christianity affects me through Sunday restrictions on commerce and insisting the holi in holiday means holy, yet the minute you question the relevance of it, which you have every right to, you are called s militant atheist.

The difference between religious equality and religious privilege is?

Right. That's it. Going to get my hammer and nails. ..

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 05:11 AM

"Atheism does not describe a wish to rid the world of religious superstition."
I'll drink to that.
Not sure what 'militant atheism' is - I've yet to see atheists terrorising pregnant women outside family planning clinics or, as is happening here in Ireland, pro-lifers (sic) mail-shotting the entire population prior to the Government, who has been forced into reviewing the law on abortion announcing its findings following the death of a woman who died in childbirth because, according to the doctors, "Ireland is a Catholic country".
I certainly am aware of 'articulate and vocal' atheists, but the "militants" of this world are those who forbid discussions on The Theory of Evolution, or the clergy who (way back admittedly, but still within living memory) physically broke up and tried to destroy traditional dancing, smashing musical instruments in the process, or the hospital staff who refuse to put "none" in the box marked "religion" on my entry form and instead put "not disclosed" or, when I lived in the UK, somewhat hilariously put "Church of England".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 06:37 AM

I'm not sure that Ludwig was quite the God-botherer you assume him to have been, Michael. He was no atheist by all accounts but he appeared to have a very personal and individualistic view of the power and glory. He often referred to the divine or the Godhead rather than God directly, and once he was quite rude to a fellow who suggested to him that a particular manuscript would soon be finished "with God's help". One of his last works, composed when he was totally deaf, has a movement headed Heiliger Dankgesang eines Genesenen an die Gottheit, in der lydischen Tonart ("A convalescent's hymn of thanksgiving to the Divinity, in the Lydian mode") - "the divinity" or "Godhead" if you like, but a bit arm's-length from "God". The movement itself, in the third manifestation of the "hymn", amasses incredible power that obliterates any hint of reverence or mysticism. I also think that, of all the greatest composers' efforts, Beethoven's music most represents triumph emerging from very earthbound, human struggle, and there isn't much intrinsic in it that is especially religious. Not to me anyway, but I'm biased!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 07:10 AM

Steve ~~ What about

"The Missa solemnis in D major, Op. 123 was composed by Ludwig van Beethoven from 1819 to 1823. It was first performed on 7 April 1824 in St. Petersburg, Russia, under the auspices of Beethoven's patron Prince Nikolai Galitzin; an incomplete performance was given in Vienna on 7 May 1824, when the Kyrie, Credo, and Agnus Dei were conducted by the composer.[1] It is generally considered to be one of the composer's supreme achievements. Together with Bach's Mass in B minor, it is the most significant mass setting of the common practice period" wiki

then?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 10:30 AM

Here's an article that sheds important light on this subject.


Has dogmatism become the new religion?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 11:28 AM

Well, Michael, Vaughan Williams wrote a lovely little Mass in G minor for unaccompanied singers, one of my favourites, yet he was an avowed atheist. "There is no reason why an atheist could not write a good Mass," he said. Yes, Beethoven penned that magnificent Mass, but then most composers of that time saw it as de rigeur to write at least one Mass. I think it's interesting that he made the final movement of the Choral Symphony, with the The Ode To Joy, into a far more secular than religious experience. True, it has one reverential and hymn-like passage, but it also includes a good dash of marching-band militarism, and its overall appeal is more to the brotherhood of man than to any deity.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Amos
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 11:54 AM

"Militant", I assume in this context, means aggressively argumentative and assertive about the falsity of theism. How can that possibly be construed as religious? This is a bewildering mishmash of semantic tapdancing.

Spiritual matters are not really suited for argument; surely the last thousand years or two have demonstrated that. They don't yield to "rightness versus wrongness", since they are not empirical phenomena, and their perceptions are not subject to objectification or physical proof, are only haphazardly repeatable, and are usually not subjected to enough analysis to identify underlying laws and principles.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 12:22 PM

Point taken, Amos, but are these really spiritual matters?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 12:56 PM

Steve Shaw: "Point taken, Amos, but are these really spiritual matters?"

You have certainly pointed out Beethoven's afflictions...but those were 'external', by way of his hearing loss...but alas, the spirit WITHIN him, was certainly in touch with something that could not be seen, nor heard, but by his spirit..and translated into sound, music.
Perhaps, if some musicians today could tap into the same, God only knows what would be manifest!
By the way, it has often been said, that genius in music is where technology(tools of the day) meets the spirit within.
I'm quite sure that applies to other fields, as well.
Though Beethoven has passed, his music still lives on...touching the spirit in new listeners, though the centuries....ever wonder what that resonating node is??

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Musket
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 01:00 PM

Nice take on Beethoven Goofus.

I thought you would have preferred Bach?

Woof!   Woof!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 01:20 PM

I'm impressed, Goofy! A cohesive, fairly well-reasoned post!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 01:44 PM

They mostly ALL are...but there is no friction without movement!

BTW, 200.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 01:46 PM

..or is it the other way around...without movement there is no friction...Oh well, either way...

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 01:47 PM

199, actually. THIS is 200.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 01:49 PM

Cross-posted. You win.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 01:50 PM

Well, I'd hate to break my record!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 01:51 PM

...or would that be 'TOUCHE'...again!?!?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Futwick
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 02:05 PM

Folks, if we're going to talk about composers who were not religious and put it in their works, look no further than Scott Joplin. In his 1915 opera, Treemonisha, he equates hoodoo and Christianity both as rank superstition holding black people back. In the clip below, we see Parson Alltalk sermonizing while the "conjurors" walk among the crowd throwing magic dust. Joplin told them through the main character that the true way to liberation was through education not religion.

In the clip, the people are told to be good not because a god cares or because the bible says so but merely because it is:

Good Advice

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Musket
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 02:10 PM

Or Lennon's Imagine?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 03:17 PM

Futwick: "In the clip, the people are told to be good not because a god cares or because the bible says so but merely because it is", )Then you say).."Good Advice"..(and that links to the video.

Question: By what criteria do you judge what is 'Good'??

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 03:43 PM

Goofballupagus, just to mend a misconception that you seem to share with many people about the protocols of the sport of fencing:   It is NOT the fencer scoring the touch who calls "Touché!" It is considered discourteous and quite bad form to claim scoring a point.

Fencing is very much a game of honor and courtesy, to the point where many experienced fencers claim that they can get real clues as to a person's character, intelligence, and honesty by the way they conduct themselves in a fencing match. I've found this to be true.

It is for the fencer who has been score against to announce that he or she has been touched by calling "Touché!" which is "Touched" in French (much of the language associated with fencing is French, although many Italian terms are used also).

A fencer who claims touches and who doesn't acknowledge touches generally winds up standing a corner somewhere because no one wants to fence with him or her.

Just thought I would instruct you in a few of the courtesies of the sport.

Don Firth

P. S. Now back to our regular screaming match.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 03:58 PM

Care for some games of chess??

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 04:00 PM

"By what criteria do you judge what is 'Good'??"

By the way, a very good question. You're in good form today!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 04:36 PM

Well, with ALL due respects, when we began our 'exchanges', you may remember that I posted that my posts with you were actually an opportunity to have both sides of the 'debate'(taken to the limit)...in order to have people (readers) THINK, beyond the propaganda..if I recall, I said, "...that instead of people being TAUGHT WHAT to think, they should be taught HOW to think"..and that would be objectively, of course....and not just unthinkingly parroting frequently repeated 'talking points'....(come to think of it, we may have either met or exceeded the limits, but that's another story)...I also posted that, for the musicians who write lyrics, that I would be posting BUNCHES of phrases that should jog a few out of any 'writer's block'(though I didn't use the phrase 'writer's block'...and actually, I thanked you ahead of time on that one, for providing that opportunity!!!!
If you have been following the news about that subject, we covered most all of the legal arguments..WAY AHEAD OF THEM!!!
We kicked ASS!!!
(wink!)

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 04:40 PM

....oh, and I forgot..I also mentioned about using the 'angst of the political debate' to emit emotions, from the musicians who could tap into it, and use it for their playing...and making it tangible...I even pissed off Bobert, when I suggested using the death of his cat.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 06:06 PM

jack apparently you haven't read my post so I'll post it again.

Dogmatism analyzed

I wish you would read it because it makes a lot of sense and eschews and answers the rancor
that many have toward atheism.

I did read all of this thread and I'm not misinterpreting anything that was said.

I heard you say loud and clear that certain atheists are "jerks" which doesn't sound like you've read any of their works as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 08:32 PM

Stringsinger: "I heard you say loud and clear that certain atheists are "jerks" which doesn't sound like you've read any of their works as well."

Well, just for the record, there are some 'clerics' who are jerks, too!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 11:01 AM

I owe Jack an apology. It was comical of me to introduce the same article that he already posted. I'll try to do better in the future and read everything that people post. I admit to not reading the opening article.

Jack, however, the idea that there are people with which you don't agree are "jerks" is short-sighted particularly when it comes to Dawkins who criticizes religion as a delusion.
I think Dawkins is clinically correct although I acknowledge that there are some religious people who contribute positive actions in society but not too many comparatively.

Dawkins in his books and lectures really has an open minded investigatory nature and is not coming from a dogmatic position but one that has researched the subject carefully and is anything but a "jerk".

I have read Dennet, Dawkins, Hitchens and Sam Harris and I don't agree with everything they say, with maybe the exception of Dawkins since he is a scientist, they aren't "jerks" in the sense that they are bad people. Hitchens is the most abrasive and perhaps his alcohol was talking some of the time but if they are "Jerks" then Christianity and many of the world's religions are filled with "jerks" if we accept your standards here.

A critical reaction to religion doesn't constitute anyone to be a "jerk".

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Amos
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 11:13 AM

In celebration of the advent of spring this year, the new Pope has issued a decree requiring all bishops, priests, nuns and choirboys associated with the Catholic hierarchy to foreswear any jerkery for twenty-four hours. Esse Non Jercues, the Papal Bull issued Sunday, imposes the conduct of non-jerkiness on all male members of the Church. The Pope acknowledged in an off-record interview that it was risking considerable non-compliance, but he declared that only through experimentation can the Church progress into the future.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 12:58 PM

Stringsinger, de Waal's article imho is no easier on Dr. Dawkins than I am. It implies that he is a hypocrite who does not see the "religion" in his own behavior.
My thesis about Dr. Dawkins being a jerk stems from his mocking of Religious people. The God Delusion is a deliberately offensive title.
If he can call me mentally ill without meeting me to sell a few extra books, I can call him a jerk.
It is easy to agree with Dawkins without being a jerk yourself. Avoid the name calling.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 01:07 PM

Good one Amos.

In response to the Pope's announcement, the Association of TV and Radio Preachers of America have announced that they too will take a day off from being jerks. Their programming will be replaced by a fine selection of liturgical music.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 01:19 PM

Jack the Sailor: "It is easy to agree with Dawkins without being a jerk yourself. Avoid the name calling."

????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Nice one, huh?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 01:24 PM

GfS, would you please explain what you mean.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 01:30 PM

Just re-read your sentence....I couldn't have said it any ironically!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 01:34 PM

I didn't mean it ironically. Though I guess it did come off as dry.

I just meant to say this I guess. It seems to me that Dr. Dawkins does make some good logical points in his book. But the marketing and promotion, especially the title, seem very jerk-like.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 01:35 PM

I didn't mean it ironically. Though I guess it did come off as dry.

I just meant to say this I guess. It seems to me that Dr. Dawkins does make some good logical points in his book. But the marketing and promotion, especially the title, seem very jerk-like.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 01:40 PM

Dry, but witty, just the same....oh no!.....you might fall into designated 'troll bin'.....but that's only by someone who just can't appreciate it....no sense of humor!

(I was going to sign off with 'Regards'...but that may take some more deliberations........)

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 06:14 PM

""For a long time it has been known that the first systems of representations with which men have pictured to themselves the world and themselves were of religious origin. There is no religion that is not a cosmology at the same time that it is a speculation upon divine things. If philosophy and the sciences were born of religion, it is because religion began by taking the place of the sciences and philosophy."" — Émile Durkheim, The Elementary Forms of the Religious Life (1912),

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 06:39 PM

Ed, I feel that is a muddled translation,

"it is because religion began by taking the place of the sciences and philosophy."

"it is because religion began by being the repository of the sciences and philosophy." Maybe...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 06:41 PM

a persuasive case that Dawkins is a jerk.

http://www.salon.com/2013/03/30/dawkins_harris_hitchens_new_atheists_flirt_with_islamophobia/

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 08:07 PM

JTS, As I resist the temptation to translatate "the Bible, I also resist the temtation to translate, or speculate this quote from ther original French. (I prefer to leave it to the better qualified than I. So, I will go with the orginal,as posted, and I understand the meaning. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 10:13 PM

This bit from the Wikipedia entry on Durkheim's "The Elementary Forms of Religious Life" clarifies his perspective:

"Durkheim... argued that our primary categories for understanding the world have their origins in religion. It is religion, Durkheim writes, that gave rise to most if not all other social constructs, including the larger society.... In the end, even the most logical and rational pursuit of science can trace its origins to religion. Durkheim states that, "Religion gave birth to all that is essential in the society."

If anyone here cared to read even a page or so of his book, the discussion here would be much more interesting than it is. I'm not holding my breath, though, because most of you didn't even read the article in the OP.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 11:16 PM

Thanks Stim.

I like that interpretation a lot.

Sorry that I offended you Ed. I simply did not think that he meant to say that religion took the place of two things that didn't exist before religion it took their place. Your translation make him look like he did not understand English grammar.   Thought it would be easier and clearer to say what was implied by the quote than to say what I just did. I was right.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 03:51 AM

So.. if a book says something you disagree with, the author is a jerk? By your standards then The US Library of Congress and British Library combined would be called the wall of jerk because I doubt logic and reason could ever stray into your personal radar field.

It is called The God Delusion on account of the content and conclusion. I doubt he put any thought into whether he could provoke a confused idiot as a bonus. You aren't that important you know.

Once you work out that your insults of others are no better than the ones you receive in return, you might stop trawling puerile articles to further your own delusion.

You realise you are making even Goofus appear rational. ..

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 10:59 AM

Musket: "You realise you are making even Goofus appear rational. .."

Mudcatters rejoice!!..Musket is coming to...out of his coma!!!....Ok, how many fingers am I holding up???

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 11:24 AM

""a persuasive case that Dawkins is a jerk.

http://www.salon.com/2013/03/30/dawkins_harris_hitchens_new_atheists_flirt_with_islamophobia/""

I read every word of that article and it totally fails to make its case and the author comes across as barely rational when he describes New Atheists (whatever the hell those might be) as Islamophobes because they don't believe in Allah.

So Atheists, who don't believe in God, don't believe in Allah either?

Well.....DUH! What a f**king surprise!

Disbelief in something does not equate to hatred, JtS.

I don't believe in fairies, but I don't hate them. For me to hate them, they would have to exist!!

That's the whole bloody point.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 11:44 AM

There is a concerted effort on the part of Christian or other religious people to demonize atheists. (Duh!) Articles like the puerile one above reinforce that behavior.

I don't know any atheist that would desecrate a Mosque or call Islamic people "towel heads" but I certainly know a lot of Christians who would do just that. I try not to know them but
they keep turning up much to my disgust. Atheists such as Dawkins et. al. don't go around burning bibles or korans. They investigate and listen to people who spout their religion and wear it on their sleeves.

Islamophobia is another buzz word used like "terrorist" or "socialist" or "liberal" to demean those who disagree with a certain point of view.

Whatever you think "militant atheism" is, Jack, the three men who have been criticized are not totally in agreement with each other but they defend the right for each other's views to be heard. You may not like those views but to dismiss them as "jerks" only brings back the old adage, when you point a finger at someone else, three fingers point back at you.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 12:17 PM

Stringsinger: "Islamophobia is another buzz word used like "terrorist" or "socialist" or "liberal" to demean those who disagree with a certain point of view."

Oh!!..I got it!!..You mean like 'bigot', 'racist', 'homophobic', 'hate monger', 'Tea Party radicals', 'Right wing Christian'....

Problem is, this country is being torn apart with this nonsensical rhetoric..and this is by design. Remember, "United we stand, divided we fall"???...so the question you need to be asking yourselves is WHO has the most to 'gain' by dividing us...musicians????..nope....minorities??..nope....spiritually minded people??....nope....how about the back of the curtain controllers??...hmmm...getting warmer....the bankster funded governmental arm of corporations????....getting hotter!.....
Then the question goes to 'WHY???'.....is the majority of people IN the corporate/bankster/governmental arm...nope....so it's a minority of wealthy people who control the dialogue....hmmm...getting REAL hot....
do you think that it takes TWO to make the argument???....mm hmmm....like the TWO parties who ARE the governmental arm of the corporate/banksters????...well, who else???.....and all this dialogue is scripted through 'talking points'.....bingo!!!!
All those who have been suckered into this crap, raise your hands!
Suckers!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 01:28 PM

How many fingers is Goofus holding up? The fact that he can at all is progress I suppose.

Many people say they are tired of all the mud slinging on these atheism knocking threads. Im not.   They help me realise what a concerted effort is going into forthright assertive attacks by some people who claim to be Christians.

Who told you to use Mudcat in order to push your fantasy on others Jack? Why have you stopped trying to argue your point for that matter? is it because you realise what an absurd showing you have made? Your credibility has got about as low as possible. Yo know? That's sad.

Starry Pete was celebrating earlier because they baptised an atheist in his church the other day. You realise of course that most baptisms are of atheists. Children have not made any commitment and even if they did it is null and void. The last christening I went to there were three Christians in the church. The vicar organist and nice old lady handing out service order sheets. Most of us get christened through tradition which is fine but the numbers allow the church leaders to tell politicians they have many members.

Did you know that till very recently in England you were counted as Christian unless you stated otherwise?

Then an ex Archbishop of Canterbury the other day moaned that government must listen to him and his mates. Fook 'em.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 01:40 PM

You known a few Stalinists in your day, haven't you Frank?

Stalin was an avowed atheist, and he desecrated more than 20,000 mosques. He also orchestrated the deportation of tens of thousands of Muslims, particularly from the Caucasus...needless to say, untold thousands of them died. But you know that...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 02:25 PM

..continuing from Stim....Not to mention many Christians and Jews or any religious factions who he felt was a threat to his tyrannical power.
Could it possibly be that history teaches us that man never learns from history??....Hasn't anyone noticed that with all the stepped up rhetoric and talking points gone berserk, that we have been conned into carrying on about 'religion' much the same way Stalin, Marx, Mao, and Pol Pot, and Hitler did....but now, they've got us doing it on the local level...when do you get the clue??..when you find yourselves turning in local prayer groups to Homeland Security??????
Hop aboard the clue train..and snap now and avoid the rush!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 02:53 PM

"Did you know that till very recently in England you were counted as Christian unless you stated otherwise?"
In England not too long ago, if you gave your religion in hospital "none" it was invariably entered as "Church of England" - presumably the lady behind the desk didn't count C of E a 'real' religion.
"Stalin was an avowed atheist"
Maybe arising out of his experiences in the seminary while training to be a priest!
Stalin had as much to do with "Marxism" as Hitler, Pinochet, Batista, Mussolini - or even Pope Pius XII... and all the other monsters had to do with capitalism or Christianity.
The Jesuit boast - 'Give me the child for his first seven years, and I'll give you the man'
Such stuff was The Manchurian Candidate made of.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 03:02 PM

I forgive you Musket.

For your own mental health and blood pressure, may I point out that you are in no way obligated to read anything that I post. Relax, breathe deeply.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 03:22 PM

Jim Carroll: "The Jesuit boast - 'Give me the child for his first seven years, and I'll give you the man'
Such stuff was The Manchurian Candidate made of."

So, I guess not all that preach the Bible know much about the spirit of it..history sure shows us that!...so lets check out where they fall down....

True..but you failed to quote Jesus who said:
"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect"


Yeah yeah,....I know it's already been pointed out to me that I do expose hypocrisy!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 03:48 PM

GfS, Jim,

I think it is fair to say that that particular Jesuit boast strayed from the path that Jesus set.

Historically Some Jesuit priests were bullies and sadists maybe some still are. They did considerable damage to many natives in Canada if I recall my middle school history correctly. I pray for the sake of this world that the present Pope, himself a Jesuit, (or at least a former one) takes the words GfS posted very very literally.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 03:58 PM

JTS, No offense taken. My intended response was that I am wary about changing a translation, muddled or not.

I understood the quote to mean religion was "science and philospohy" before they came onto their own. And, the Christian religion had an extreme influence on both at that point in time, on scientific thinking in the early and "transition years" (as I suspect earlier religions did also in earlier years).

Here are two related quotes, from early Christian science minds:

""By denying scientific principles, one may maintain any paradox.""
Galileo Galilei

""Behind The truth of our faith becomes a matter of ridicule among the infidels if any Catholic, not gifted with the necessary scientific learning, presents as dogma what scientific scrutiny shows to be false."" Thomas Aquinas

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 04:09 PM

I like this one Ed.

>>>""Behind The truth of our faith becomes a matter of ridicule among the infidels if any Catholic, not gifted with the necessary scientific learning, presents as dogma what scientific scrutiny shows to be false."" Thomas Aquinas <<<

Is it likely that the typical Kansas school board member would understand it and take it to heart? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 04:50 PM

"You known a few Stalinists in your day, haven't you Frank?"

Actually I have. Stalin was a monster of course and did everything you said just like
the historical Christians did during the Crusades and at other times.

"Stringsinger, de Waal's article imho is no easier on Dr. Dawkins than I am. It implies that he is a hypocrite who does not see the "religion" in his own behavior."

Jack, I read it differently and I never heard de Waal call Dawkins a hypocrite. I have heard de Waal speak live.



"My thesis about Dr. Dawkins being a jerk stems from his mocking of Religious people. The God Delusion is a deliberately offensive title. "

Actually, the title has nothing to do with you. It has to do with religious belief in general.
If you really are sincere about what you believe then you shouldn't have to worry about what somewhat else thinks and react so defensively.

"If he can call me mentally ill without meeting me to sell a few extra books, I can call him a jerk."

You certainly can call anyone a "jerk" if you want to, but does that establish your defense
or enlighten the conversation in any way?

Dawkins doesn't need to sell a few extra books. His books, highly popular among intelligent people, have been selling for years. He is an established scientist.

You would do well to actually read one of his books. Maybe you would understand him better.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 01:53 AM

Why, thank you, Jack!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 04:14 AM

Hello Sailor:
"I think it is fair to say that that particular Jesuit boast strayed from the path that Jesus set." (I'm sure you meant to write 'beast').
Isn't this what all these arguments should be about?
As an atheist (nothing more) I really don't give a toss what people believe - anybody is entitled to their own beliefs. It only becomes my problem when others attempt to force their beliefs and values onto me - it is you people who make war on the beliefs and actions of others.
Let's face it - if your Jesus (assuming he existed) returned to earth he would have stood trial in front of the HUAC and had he gained any sort of real influence he would have ended up with a CIA or MI5 bullet in the back of his head (or, at best, wearing an orange jump-suit in a concentration camp on the Cuban coast).
Christianity, or any religion is, or should be a guide to living, a philosophy; Marxism on the other hand is a socio/economic theory, an attempt to understand the world and change it, hopefully for the better.
Any failings in either of these are down to the people in the driving seat, neither is in a position to claim superiority in practical terms.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 06:44 AM

I forgive you Jim.

I forgive you Frank.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 08:02 AM

"I forgive you Jim."
A convenient - is somewhat arrogant back-door for you and your buddies away from dealing with the real issues which you have studiously avoided.
You may have meant it as a joke, but it's an attitude I've encountered throughout my life.
I know very few atheists who seek to impose their views on believers, but we now live in a world that has become extremely dangerous because of religious intolerance, by differing religious groups.
Some time this year, following the tragic death of a young woman who died through a hospital refusing to end an unviable pregnancy because "this is a Catholic country", Ireland will (hopefully) hold a referendum into whether these and other such circumstances should allow terminations. It is just possible that, should a reasonable and humane decision be arrived at and should the church (not to mention the howling and menacing mob of 'pro-lifers' (sic)) be resisted, Ireland will, with one mighty bound, take a flying leap into somewhere in the middle of the 20th century.
The tragic irony of all this is that any such changes will only have been made possible by the revelations of decades, possibly centuries of clerical sexual abuse of children by supposedly celibate old men who have taken it upon themselves to tell us how to live our lives.
Militant atheism my arseum.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: BrendanB
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 11:12 AM

I am in the somewhat peculiar position of being a practising Catholic while recognising that, in an entirely material world, my faith is irrational. I am aware that there are those, atheists and theists, who despise people like me for electing to believe without requiring evidence - but I can live with that.
I, in my turn, despise the mindset of atheists and theists who seek to tell others what to believe.
I utterly reject the idea that religion or atheism should have a voice in government. If religious believers want to change the world, do it by example. The same goes for atheists. My faith is no-one's business but mine, your atheism is no-one's business but yours.   
Some of the postings in this and associated threads do seem to be unnecessarily defensive or aggressive and, as a consequence, have undermined rather than enhanced the discussion. None of us knows if we are right, we live in hope. Steve Shaw once instructed me to 'get up of my knees'. (no, I can't remember the thread and can't be arsed to look for it.). Starry Pete ( or should that be starry pete?) took me to task for not accepting every word of the Old Testament as the literal truth. Such responses simply convince me that they both have issues of their own to resolve. On the other hand, if I am irritating those two I must be doing something right.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 11:46 AM

Brendan, I absolutely support your idea of Separation of Church and State. One's personal conviction should have no role in deciding public policy.

If you are irritating, however, then the point of discussion is lost.

A belief system can't be rational because it contains no proof empirically.

I don't despise you for having a belief system. I had one once myself. I was not traumatized by it in any way. In my own case, I outgrew it.

There is no militant atheism any more than there is militant Catholicism, Christianity, Judaism, etc. (of which many will argue that these militant views exist).

Atheists today are no different from what they've always been, non-believers. They have been suppressed by religious people and are now speaking out. The dialogue will continue as more people leave their respective "faiths".

I'm not in favor of attacking anyone's religious beliefs unless they prove to be a menace to society imposing their will through violence and intimidation.

I think these threads are useful in that they explore alternative ideas to the prevailing
"monolithic" views of the majority of the public.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 02:06 PM

""I am aware that there are those, atheists and theists, who despise people like me for electing to believe without requiring evidence""

Where did that come from Brendan, you doughnut.

Theists too believe without evidence, just not in men with black frocks, dog collars, or turbans.

But we certainly don't want, expect, or ask anyone to join our ranks. We're far too busy fending off Evangelists, Jehovah Witnesses, Children of Mary and the Salvation Army, all busy trying to convert us.

Ninety percent of the atheists I know are similarly indifferent to your choices.

Get this firmly fixed in your skull! You only impinge on our consciousness when you try to push your ideas on us.

Leave us alone and we won't even know you exist.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 02:20 PM

Everyone has their own personal religion. Just watch them. You can eventually determine the nature of their religion by the following:

1. What do they habitually attack?

2. What do they habitually defend?

3. And how do they behave toward other people?

Their religion always has a God too....but quite often that God is nothing other than themselves. Their God of Self speaks every time they open their mouths, and they see Him/Her whenever they look in the mirror. Their loyalty to this one God of Self is absolute (although they can get angry or depressed when He or She messes up)! They will have NO other Gods before Him or Her! Specially not the Gods of organized religions. Almost everything in commercial society encourages the development of this One Personal God...and all the fear that goes with it...because that helps sell product! $$$$

Be nice to your Personal God today. Go buy some more stuff at the mall and "pamper" yourself. You deserve it, because you are Number One.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 02:51 PM

As for church and state, I could not agree more!

God has no place in politics, even though (maybe even because) he is incorruptible.

And please don't be offended by that "Doughnut". It was most fondly used.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 02:54 PM

Lighten up LH! Not every poster takes himself that seriously.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ed T
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 03:34 PM

That was odd, LH.
You may be paying too much attention to verses from the "Chongo Chronicles."


:)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 03:54 PM

I, in my turn, despise the mindset of atheists and theists who seek to tell others what to believe.

Several things. Atheists do not tell people "what to believe". Believing is a trait that is not within the pantheon of atheism (we do continually try to tell you this, you know). As for seeking to tell people, well now there's a pot calling a kettle black if ever I heard one. 'Tis organised religion that is the expert in telling people what to believe. So much so that organised religion does not believe in education. That would be far too dangerous. Questioning and critical appraisal of evidence, the mainstays of real education, is to be severely discouraged. Organised religion starts telling you, right from the cradle, right through your developing years (when you can't be expected to understand), what you must believe, under pain of excommunication/ostracism/fatwa/honour killing/hellfire. All atheists do, apart from quietly getting on with their lives, is to declare that they require evidence for anything they are told by authority. And that, as far as the alleged existence of God is concerned, that evidence is severely wanting. End of!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 04:09 PM

>>>"I forgive you Jim."
A convenient - is somewhat arrogant back-door for you and your buddies away from dealing with the real issues which you have studiously avoided.
You may have meant it as a joke, but it's an attitude I've encountered throughout my life.<<<

It was my impression that you had talked condescendingly to me and attacked my beliefs. I am sorry if I was mistaken about that. Jesus told us to ask the Lord to forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us. (I am paraphrasing). I don't want to bicker with you. I forgave you for my benefit. To let go my anger and defuse the situation from my side. I am sorry if it offend you. Hopefully it did not give offense as responding in kind would have.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 04:19 PM

Don(Wyziwyg)T
"Where did that come from Brendan, you doughnut."

Don,

You have just criticized a calm, reasoned intelligent post by Brendan by nitpicking over a definition and called him a name.

The semantic nitpicking is an old Mudcat tradition. I've done it myself many times. Does it serve the conversation?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 05:35 PM

. So much so that organised religion does not believe in education.

Yet in UK, Christian faith schools are massively over-subscribed and people lie about their beliefs (or lack of) to get their kids the benefit.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 06:21 PM

"Several things. Atheists do not tell people "what to believe". Believing is a trait that is not within the pantheon of atheism (we do continually try to tell you this, you know). As for seeking to tell people, well now there's a pot calling a kettle black if ever I heard one. 'Tis organised religion that is the expert in telling people what to believe. So much so that organised religion does not believe in education."

Don T, I think I may have found the source of your accusation that I was dissing all atheists.

Brendan spoke for himself and about his own experiences with "atheists and "theists" he has encountered. Mr. Shaw attacks him and all of religion for attacking all of atheism. I think that Brendan will be wise enough not to rise to the bait where I was not. It looked like I was attacking all atheists when I was merely trying to counter a baseless argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 07:15 PM

So much so that organised religion does not believe in education.

Yet in UK, Christian faith schools are massively over-subscribed

Thanks for making my point. The people who are so desperate to get their kids into "faith schools" are exactly the people who were indoctrinated that way themselves. Those, and, of course, the people who see faith schools as somehow giving their kids a social advantage. It is, of course, well known that the latter faction can easily buy faith schools off. And don't even think of contradicting me. I worked in faith schools in the East End for years and I saw all the tricks and all the quiet acquiescence. And I was a Catholic at the time!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 07:25 PM

Well, Jacko, we can either respond sensibly to posts or we can shut up. In no way was my post an attack on the poster. The fellow made a ludicrous assertion by any measure and I put him right. That is not an attack. That is what discussion forums are supposed to be about. Now I've noticed of late this new tendency of yours to leap to the defence of people who (a) haven't even had a chance to defend themselves yet, or (b) might not want your help. I could conclude that there's a little touch of paranoia there. Hold back and let people respond. Or don't listen unto me and continue your unstoppable crusade to make a complete arse of yourself. You have a choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 07:29 PM

When WWI ended, a multiplicity of other nations wrote a new Constitution for Germany, commonly called the "Weimar Constitution."

For some time, Germany followed the Weimar Constitution, which was considered "a very good Constitution."

It was, in fact, so good that most constitutional scholars considered it almost identical in effect, to the US Constitution.

It differed in only ONE condition considered "significant" (largely in retrospect) in that it did not prohibit a "State Religion."

The first international treaty made by the new Government ca. 1938 was a treaty with Rome, and declaration of ROMAN CATHOLICISM as the official state religion.

Despite the good intentions of some persons of good intent, religious or others, some rather unfortunate results followed soon after, since no religion imposed by government can avoid the appearance of "permission to hate" anyone who deviates from the official line.

Several other actions by the new government followed, that are generally considered to have contributed to the "German difficulties" although some disagree that they were all bad ideas. The Bush II administration appears to have attempted to followed several of the German concepts in nearly their same form (and in almost identical order) like rigging the highest courts, propagandising hatred of "undesirablees," promotion of religiosities, and the like; but here the results thus far came out a little better than for the Germans.

Since most religions, along with the non-religious, here recognize that a government dictated belief system is undesirable, atheists have no reason to be excluded from resisting imposition of religious law just as must be done by the majority of religious believers when fanatic radicals attempt to impose their own religion on everyone else, and there is no reason to call atheists "militant" if they object along with those persons of faith with whom they're willing to take a stand.

BUT:

First Amendment doesn't apply here: N.C. lawmakers push bill for state religion

There's always another nutcase who can get a few votes by pandering to the fanatics who ARE MILITANT.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 02:03 AM

John in Kansas: "It differed in only ONE condition considered "significant" (largely in retrospect) in that it did not prohibit a "State Religion."
The first international treaty made by the new Government ca. 1938 was a treaty with Rome, and declaration of ROMAN CATHOLICISM as the official state religion."

Take a bow, John, you hit a BIG bingo!!

Three major German Reichs (empires) that have existed. These were, respectively:

1. The Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation, which lasted from the coronation of Otto I as a Holy Roman Emperor in 962 to 1806, when it was dissolved during the Napoleonic Wars;

2. The German Empire, which lasted from the unification of Germany in 1871 to its collapse after World War I, during the German Revolution of 1918–1919;

3. The National Socialist state commonly known as the Third Reich or Nazi Germany, which lasted from the Machtergreifung in 1933 to the End of World War II in Europe in 1945.


The "Holy Roman Empire" came about by the Roman Empire co-opting Christianity, which had made serious inroads, and threatened the Roman Empire, which was wrought with wars, hedonism, a poly theistic religion, decadence etc etc. In the co-opting of Christianity, who, at first they persecuted fiercely, the merged the two together, while retaining the trappings of their earlier 'pagan' religion.
Hence, they created a Theocracy...where the Pope replaced Caesar as the sitting head.
By the way, as this pushed eastward the 'king' of Russia was referred to as 'Czar'....an adaptation of 'Caesar'.

For what it's worth.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 09:06 AM

brendan- please be assured that i was not,and am not now irritated by your pick and choose beliefs.i trust that my believing the bible does not irritate you either.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Stu
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 10:02 AM

"Yet in UK, Christian faith schools are massively over-subscribed and people lie about their beliefs (or lack of) to get their kids the benefit."

That's not because there's some drift towards religion by the child-bearing populace, but because faith schools are considered superior to state schools. They may be so, but that's got sod all to do with divine influence and more to do with the fact faith schools discriminate against poorer or less able pupils (see data here).

Faith schools are divisive and retrogressive; they don't encourage integration, tolerance or allow their pupils to mix with people whose views might not be their own. This is not good for the pupils or greater society.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 10:13 AM

Steve.
The people who are so desperate to get their kids into "faith schools" are exactly the people who were indoctrinated that way themselves. Those, and, of course, the people who see faith schools as somehow giving their kids a social advantage.

Like Musket's friend. (11th April 2012)

Either the word faith is an active word or religious belief has bugger all to do with it. A friend of mine who isn't superstitious had to pretend to be a believer in Christian superstition in order to get his kids into the local performing school. No matter I suppose, and I would do the same. Yeah yeah, course I'm a God botherer and I believe in all that stuff. Now educate my children please.

I'd lie, same as he did. It doesn't matter because there is no hell they can send you to, and lying to delusion pedlars isn't a crime, it's playing their absurd game with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 10:15 AM

Sorry, that should have been in quotes.
It was what Musket posted about his friend and himself.

"Either the word faith is an active word or religious belief has bugger all to do with it. A friend of mine who isn't superstitious had to pretend to be a believer in Christian superstition in order to get his kids into the local performing school. No matter I suppose, and I would do the same. Yeah yeah, course I'm a God botherer and I believe in all that stuff. Now educate my children please.

I'd lie, same as he did. It doesn't matter because there is no hell they can send you to, and lying to delusion pedlars isn't a crime, it's playing their absurd game with them. "

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 11:53 AM

We have to ask the question, why has militant Christianity, Judaism, Islam, or any other
militant religion become a religion and then maybe some answers that are valuable might emerge.

I have the right to criticize atheism or any other kind of "ism" if it becomes dogmatic and intrudes upon my right not to believe it.

I am beginning to think that these discussions are proving fruitless because of all the name calling and vituperation they cause. Still, it's a worthy subject and new insights into it
might ameliorate the emotional outbursts here.

I disagree with the notion of Militant or New Atheists since I think this is a canard.
Atheists haven't changed at all except now they (whoever and however different they are) are more vocal.

Of course religionists have done their share of vocalizing and proselytising disproportionately to non-believers. When they claim victimhood, while being the loudest in the majority, it's a great big joke.

I think we need a new set of bumper stickers. "Believe what you want but don't spill it on me", or "You have the inalienable right to be stupid" or "I have faith that faith doesn't exist" or "Jesus who?" or "Islamophobia, homophobia or atheophopia? What's the difference?"

I am tending more toward Frans de Waal's "Apathysist" to climb from under all the brickbats being thrown.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 12:07 PM

Keith. Have I ever spouted a view on trombones?

Just wondered.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Lighter
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 12:52 PM

Long ago I posted my favorite bumper sticker, from around 2007:

"Don't Believe Everything You Think."

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 02:09 PM

One problem with lying to get your kid into a faith school is that you are severely disadvantaging your kid by sending them to a school which will teach them myth as truth and which will make them bow their heads to a deity they must not question. So a very large chunk of their time will be spent in enduring anti-educational "lessons", chanting "prayers" and going to services. If it's a Catholic school they will spend every lesson under the sightless gaze of a sparsely-dressed brutalised dead man hanging on a cross on the wall in front of them. Another problem is that you will depriving a perfectly good state school and its pupils of your child's talents. When enough people do that, and they do, the system is thrown into imbalance. I'm scratching my head here wondering whether anyone who approves of this kind of discrimination can really be called "Christian".

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 02:39 PM

The "Holy Roman Empire" came about by the Roman Empire co-opting Christianity, which had made serious inroads, and threatened the Roman Empire, which was wrought with wars, hedonism, a poly theistic religion, decadence etc etc. In the co-opting of Christianity, who, at first they persecuted fiercely, the merged the two together, while retaining the trappings of their earlier 'pagan' religion.
Hence, they created a Theocracy...where the Pope replaced Caesar as the sitting head.

You appear to be confused between the adoption of Christianity by Constantine, and its establishment as state religion by later emperors (around 360-450CE) and the (originally Frankish, later mostly Germanic) Holy Roman Empire started nominally by Charlemagne about 400 years later. Of which it has been said, was neither holy nor Roman, and scarcely an empire. The Pope was never head, even in title, of either the Roman Empire or the Holy Roman Empire.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 03:07 PM

Dan (olddude) says that you are a good guy so I am going to try to get to know you. I am not going to ignore you as if you were like some of the others.

Lets start with this.

>>I have the right to criticize atheism or any other kind of "ism" if it becomes dogmatic and intrudes upon my right not to believe it."<<

The der Waal excerpt I linked to at the beginning of this thread makes the point that the neo-atheists have become as dogmatic at some of the believers they condemn.

>>I disagree with the notion of Militant or New Atheists since I think this is a canard.
Atheists haven't changed at all except now they (whoever and however different they are) are more vocal.<<

"neo" means "new" Der Wall complains about neo-atheists in that article and identifies Hitchens and Dawkins as neo-atheists and points to them directly as being too dogmatic.

You seem to be both praising der Waal for his insights and directly contradicting those insights. It confuses me. Would you please clear that up?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: BrendanB
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 04:07 PM

Steve, regarding atheists telling me what to believe - I would have been more accurate if I had said atheists telling me what NOT to believe. Can you honestly say that nowhere in any of your posts is there a form of words that could be construed as meaning one should not believe in religion? I also feel that your description of Catholic schools in the UK is a distortion of today's reality.
Don, I can cope with being called a doughnut, you should hear what my friends sometimes call me!
pfss .....'your pick and choose beliefs'(!). .....'nuff said!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 04:17 PM

""I usually lump organized religion, organized labor, and organized crime together. The Mafia gets points for having the best restaurants"". Dave Beard

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: bobad
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 04:38 PM

"The best mind altering drug is truth".

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 05:22 PM


One problem with lying to get your kid into a faith school is that you are severely disadvantaging your kid

So why do they do it?
Answer, because the faith schools get the best results.

That is why atheists lie about being Christians.
To get their kids a place they are not entitled to, with no moral compunction about depriving Christian families of a place.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 05:48 PM

BTW Brendan, I think you realize that I was not defending you. Just pointing that what had been done to me was being done to you.

I am truly sorry if you took that as any hint that I thought that you could not or would not defend yourself if you thought it was necessary.

You handled it better than me. Stupid me, kept engaging him AFTER I had pointed out that he was not consistent post to post. Which you pointed out in your last post.

And obviously the doughnut comment was not my interest. I mentioned it jokingly. It was the Mudcat pedantic nitpicking which sidetracks so many conversations here that I wanted to addres. Lately I have been asking myself "does it serve the conversation?" and have refused to nitpick over little, unintentional things.

I apologize to you Don that I singled you you out. I was irritable at the time and singling you out was wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 05:57 PM

Musket, I do not remember if you ever posted about trombones.
I remembered that post because it shocked me a little.
An atheist stating that lying is OK because there is no God, so it is OK to lie to deprive a Christian child of a place at a Christian faith school and get your own kid in.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: BrendanB
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 06:05 PM

Rest easy Jack, I don't take offence very often and nothing you have said could possibly offend me.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 06:11 PM

Steve, regarding atheists telling me what to believe - I would have been more accurate if I had said atheists telling me what NOT to believe. Can you honestly say that nowhere in any of your posts is there a form of words that could be construed as meaning one should not believe in religion?

Well I don't think anyone's talking about "believing in religion". I expect there are many people who believe in God who also hate religion. I don't care what you believe in. I've said that so many times I feel like a parrot. What I do care about is that you do not force those beliefs on children. My reason for thinking that is that it is entirely inappropriate to expect children to understand what you are telling them. In addition, religions talk to children about God as if he's an absolute certainty. That automatically makes religions liars. It's no good trying to tell me that the modern way is to "get them to think and talk about it". That is not good enough. All your hymns and prayers contain explicit certainty and you make children chant them off by heart. The Lord's Prayer is full of rock-solid certainties. Every Christian child can chant it from memory. Well, that's how they brainwashed people in those horrid communist regimes we are all so glad are now consigned to history, remember?

I also feel that your description of Catholic schools in the UK is a distortion of today's reality.

So are you telling me that Catholic schools don't tell children that Catholicism is the only way, the truth and the light? That there are classrooms without crucifixes? That they don't herd children off to services on holy days at the drop of a hat? Make them sing Christmas carols? Make them bow their heads in prayer? Is that what you're telling me?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 06:26 PM

Well, Steve, three of my four kids went to Catholic schools, and one to a Waldorf/Steiner school. They were all exposed to Catholic teachings as children, along with indoctrination in my beliefs in tolerance and left-wing politics and a number of other things.

When they grew up, they chose their own paths. Not one of them is practicing a religious faith. I suppose I might have liked it if at least one of them were still Catholic, but that didn't happen and it's not my right to push them in any direction.

Still, I don't think they were hurt by seeing crucifixes in their classrooms. But I don't think the Catholic religion was taught to them (or to me) as rigidly as you might expect.

But hey, if I'm Catholic and I'm raising kids, why is it wrong for me to bring them up in my religious tradition? I made it clear to them that when they were of age, the choice would be up to them. They all grew up to be good, nonideological people who have been exposed to a wide spectrum of schools of thought.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 06:31 PM

"So are you telling me that Catholic schools don't tell children that Catholicism is the only way, the truth and the light? That there are classrooms without crucifixes? That they don't herd children off to services on holy days at the drop of a hat? Make them sing Christmas carols? Make them bow their heads in prayer? Is that what you're telling me? "

Make them?

Make! them?


Make!!!!! them?!!!

They are enrolling in Catholic schools Mr Shaw!! THEY ARE SIGNING UP FOR ALL OF THAT!!!   

What are you saying???? Are you saying that Atheist parents should lie to get their kids into a Catholic school then complain because the school is Catholic?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 07:45 PM

Steve, many Catholic schools pride themselves in teaching what they call "critical thinking" - the Jesuits take special pride in this, and have taught in this method for centuries. I think this could also be called "nonideological thinking."

I was taught from early on, by both my parents and my Catholic school teachers, to take everything with a grain of salt. I was taught that Bible stories should be studied for their meaning, for the lessons they teach - not for historical facts. Never once was I told to doubt evolution, although I was generally told that God acted and is acting through the process of evolution.

In general, I think it's safe to say that reality is, what it is. We see the same natural processes. If I see God acting through those processes and you see the same process without seeing an action of God, it's still the same process - we just have different perspectives.

I just got a call from our parish religious education director, asking me to teach this Sunday's session for the class for kids who are going to receive the Sacrament of Reconciliation (i.e., penance, confession). I asked her what I should cover, and she just said, "Do your thing, Joe." She knows I'd do "my thing" anyhow, and I think she likes to have me teach the kids because she knows I present things in a nonideological manner. So, we're going to talk about what it means to be sorry, to apologize, and to forgive. I will do my best to try to bring them to an understanding of these things as it means to them in their hearts, not in some dogma.

Now, I have to say that when I use my nonideological methods on people who are more comfortable with ideology, things don't always work out well. I've detailed in other threads how often people with a grammar school religious education have accused me of heresy, and I have a pastor who is scared to death of what I might say to people. But I think I stick pretty close to Catholic teaching - I'm just nonideological about it. I try to ensure that the people I teach have an understanding of myth, the meaning of ritual, and the thinking that should go behind making a moral decision. Some of this stuff sounds like heresy to ideological Christians, but what I teach has always been taught by nonideological Christians, back to the time of Christ and the Apostles.

So, usually at the end of every class, I'll do a review and find out what people have learned. Sometimes, it makes me want to scream. If people have an ideological mindset, they just don't get it - and then they can come up with some really weird ideas. But I keep trying.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 08:32 PM

""In addition, religions talk to children about God as if he's an absolute certainty. That automatically makes religions liars.""

To put it into another perspective - for analysis purposes only- parents tell their children a number of imaginary characters are real such as Santa, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy and a multitude of other fabled characters, and talking animals in stories and cartoons. In some cases kids can even sit on their knee, to prove they are real.

I hardly expect that this scars kids for a lifetime? I expect, (and their is likely evidence to back it up), as they reach the "age of reason" these young adults realize (through sound reasoning, on their own) that these characters are not real? They then "move on" to freely make their own informed choices in life to move forward with or without these imaginary, and harmless childhood chararcters in their lives. Is it not so? If so, is there not a degree of parallel in parents choice to expose their children to religion, and related positive messages?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 08:38 PM

i had to fix a couple of typos...you can remove the other one....


Guest(whoever you are because you don't sign in with a name, and you should)..I'm aware of Constantine, and the battle at Istanbul, in which he claimed to see a cross etc etc...and about his mother pushing for all the other stuff too...and i was going to put that history into my post, and you are correct...but I cut and pasted from another site, being short on time....regardless, the Roman Empire co-opted the newly spreading Christian faith..(much like the Democratic Party co-opted the 'Peace Movement' in the 60's)..Christianity had nothing to do with forming the 'First Reich'..and for that matter not really much to do with the formation of the Catholic Church, either.

That being said...which brings us to the second point, Catholic schools spit in the milk of public schools academically....NO Comparison!! If a parent wanted their kids to get a decent education and are willing to pay the tuition, let them...matter of fact, all the more power to them!
.....and that being said.....Spirituality is a gift..it does not come from how many crucifixes are on the wall, or how many chants you repeat....it doesn't come from liturgical attendances...music, as well is a gift...it doesn't come from what 'artists' you like..or what everyone around you is listening to...or what is 'hip' and the trend d'jour....it IS a gift....and truth to tell, it comes from the same place spirituality comes from...not because you picked up an instrument in your pubescent years just to get noticed or laid....and the people who excel at music are people who have a PASSION for it...people who get spiritually closer are people who have a PASSION for it...and that doesn't particularity mean making a pest of yourself about it or trying to shove it down other people's throats...it's way too personal, as is music and how it forms within.
...and of course, that being said......
'Religion', the word, just means 'way of life'...for those who miss out on being spiritual there's always a Religion(as in an organized church) that they can subscribe to. That doesn't mean that a parishioner isn't or can't be spiritual, but it also doesn't mean that their spirituality comes from being a good parishioner or 'church member'....
....that being said(again), your 'way of life'(religion) has to do more with your behavior patterns, more than what you THINK you 'Believe' or say you profess.......
..and that being said (once again) atheism is NOT a religion, or way of life...but it can be an excuse for bad behavior and resenting authority...but atheism is NOT a striven for attainment of anything...if so, what?...and if they 'battle God' or the widespread belief in God, then it would be safe to say that they are more obsessed about God, than many a church going parishioner!!!

Now instead of re-acting, just THINK about it, first...CALMLY...and you will probably come to the same conclusion....unless you're still grinding you own personal axes...that nobody sees, or even cares about.
(Must feel about the same as a 'religious' fanatic!!).

Waving.........
GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 09:00 PM

Well, you see, Santa and the Tooth Fairy are yarns that we actively release our kids from when they get to a certain age. Let's dispel the somewhat mischievous comparison of those benign fellows with what children are told about God and Jesus. Yes, we have baby Jesus and angels and shepherds and all that lot. Along with them, parenthetically, we have the hymns and the the carols and the Gentle Jesus prayers. Are you released from these images as you grow up, as with Santa and the tooth Fairy? Why no, you are not! The very opposite,in fact! You are soon introduced to the darker concepts of sin, heaven and hell, the prayers get more assertive (and more riddled with certainties) and the whole thing suddenly becomes very grown-up. Unfortunately, the children to whom this stuff is peddled are not grown up. You can't afford to wait until then, of course, as you'll lose them if you're not careful. There's all that indoctrination by prayer, hymn, services and instruction, and those crucifixes to remind you every minute of the club you're in. Now there are enlightened fellows like Joe who debate issues with their kids and let them know they have a penalty-free choice. That is very nice. In Africa and Latin America, millions of Catholic women are suffering from having too many kids, from HIV/Aids, from poverty, from knitting-needle abortions and from gross inequality, and all because they never had a Joe Offer to let them know they had the choice to argue back and escape the shackles of the Church, penalty-free, if they wanted to. Even if they had, the iron grip of the Church would still have stayed their liberation. The real world out there might just not be that of middle-class America after all.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 09:08 PM

Make!!!!! them?!!!

They are enrolling in Catholic schools Mr Shaw!! THEY ARE SIGNING UP FOR ALL OF THAT!!!

Well, Jack, let me make the somewhat elementary point you appear to have overlooked that the people who are doing the signing-up are the parents. The ten-year-olds (or younger) who are being enrolled are not, generally, engaged in a serious, grown-up conversation about what mummy and daddy are letting them in for. I'm so glad I could clear that up for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 09:25 PM

Steve, I don't think you give those "poor African savages" the credit due them. It's not one's instruction that makes one able to think for oneself instead of blindly following a leader - it's who one is as a person. I'm quite sure that there are many nonideological people spread throughout the world, even in "darkest Africa."

As for the others, even if they ARE ideological, they get to choose their ideology.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 09:27 PM

Yes and that is such a good point because you know so better than their parents what those kids need.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 09:44 PM

""Well, you see, Santa and the Tooth Fairy are yarns that we actively release our kids from when they get to a certain age."'

Well, possibly I was in a fortunate minority? When I look back, I fell that I was just as "released" to make my own decisions on religion, as with all the the fabled characters mentioned. Some I retain, and even passed (the experience) on to my children (Santa an the like) as they enlightened my youthful life. With religion, I ensured my children had exposure, and were free to make their own choices, which they did (my son is an athiest, my daughter a non-practicing but believing christian).

But, I look back at all these youth experiences (including religious awareness) with a smile, as I see that they did no harm to my childhood, but did add perspective and, yes, a sparkle of joy in my youthful eye:)

BTW, my intent is in not intended as "somewhat mischievous comparisons" I see them as meaningful comparisons, that have no mischevious intent at all - but could have a purpose in the discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 09:50 PM

Steve, I don't think you give those "poor African savages" the credit due them. It's not one's instruction that makes one able to think for oneself instead of blindly following a leader - it's who one is as a person. I'm quite sure that there are many nonideological people spread throughout the world, even in "darkest Africa."

I'm appalled at your characterisation, which you appear to be attaching to me here, of African women as savages. Time and time again I've stood up here for women in Africa and Latin America. I've attacked with vehemence the teachings of so-called Christians like Mother Teresa who strove to keep women in ignorance and poverty. There is nothing in the make-up of African women, any more than any women, that condemns them to their large families, constant pregnancies and high rates of sexually-transmitted disease. It is men who keep them that way. Their own traditions, their own menfolk and those men in Rome who decree that they will stay just as they are. If Africa is dark then it's us who keep it dark. If the women look like savages it's because men condemn them to look that way. And some of those men you appear to be rather quick to defend.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 09:50 PM

Steve, I don't think you give those "poor African savages" the credit due them. It's not one's instruction that makes one able to think for oneself instead of blindly following a leader - it's who one is as a person. I'm quite sure that there are many nonideological people spread throughout the world, even in "darkest Africa."

I'm appalled at your characterisation, which you appear to be attaching to me here, of African women as savages. Time and time again I've stood up here for women in Africa and Latin America. I've attacked with vehemence the teachings of so-called Christians like Mother Teresa who strove to keep women in ignorance and poverty. There is nothing in the make-up of African women, any more than any women, that condemns them to their large families, constant pregnancies and high rates of sexually-transmitted disease. It is men who keep them that way. Their own traditions, their own menfolk and those men in Rome who decree that they will stay just as they are. If Africa is dark then it's us who keep it dark. If the women look like savages it's because men condemn them to look that way. And some of those men you appear to be rather quick to defend.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 09:50 PM

Steve, I don't think you give those "poor African savages" the credit due them. It's not one's instruction that makes one able to think for oneself instead of blindly following a leader - it's who one is as a person. I'm quite sure that there are many nonideological people spread throughout the world, even in "darkest Africa."

I'm appalled at your characterisation, which you appear to be attaching to me here, of African women as savages. Time and time again I've stood up here for women in Africa and Latin America. I've attacked with vehemence the teachings of so-called Christians like Mother Teresa who strove to keep women in ignorance and poverty. There is nothing in the make-up of African women, any more than any women, that condemns them to their large families, constant pregnancies and high rates of sexually-transmitted disease. It is men who keep them that way. Their own traditions, their own menfolk and those men in Rome who decree that they will stay just as they are. If Africa is dark then it's us who keep it dark. If the women look like savages it's because men condemn them to look that way. And some of those men you appear to be rather quick to defend.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 09:53 PM

I sent that once. Typed it, checked it, corrected it, copied in case it went awol - then hit send. Once. So it's here three times.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 09:56 PM

Ya' gotta forgive Steve...he's still bitter about his Catholic upbringing....so much, he's hung up on the God thing...even more so than those proselytizing Catholicism.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 10:12 PM

300 whoop-ti-doos!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 01:27 AM

Steve Shaw, you're just too ideological for me. You seem to thing the world is one big brainwashing machine, controlled by demagogues - so you want to ensure that the demagogues impose your way of thinking on the earth.

There's no doubt that the birth rate in Africa is high. My contention is that this is a cultural thing that has gone on for centuries, not a function of a 1968 declaration by the Pope in Rome. And yes, I would guess that you are right that that high birth rate may well be the doing of men. In general, it seems to me that impoverished rural societies tend to have higher birth rates. As societies become urban and gain a higher standard of education and living, the birth rate tends to go down. Rome has little or nothing to do with it.

If you can find me data to prove that it's Rome that's causing the birth rate in Africa, I might believe you. But to me, that sounds preposterous.

And your condemnation of Mother Teresa, heartfelt though it may be, sounds just as preposterous.

Both of your conspiracy theories seem to be based on an inflated view of the power of ideology, like you think Rome and Mother Teresa are brainwashing entire nations, or something. We get accusations like that all the time in the right-wing county where I live. My friend the former Jesuit put on a panel discussion of capital punishment at the local community college. He was accused of "brainwashing" college students because he didn't invite supporters of capital punishment to speak. And the pro-gun people make the same accusations, as do the anti-immigration people and those who think Social Security is Communism.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 01:31 AM

Joe Offer: "And the pro-gun people make the same accusations, as do the anti-immigration people and......"

..and vise verse!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 01:51 AM

Not in my county, GfS. All the brainwashing accusations come from the vast, right-wing majority. I think we're rated the most conservative county in the State of California.

In general, it seems to me that it's ideologically-oriented people (on both the left and the right) who raise the charge of "brainwashing."

Myself, I don't really believe in brainwashing, although I have found that some people are indeed stupid.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 01:58 AM

Here's an interesting study: World Health Organization (WHO) - Family planning in sub-Saharan Africa: progress or stagnation?. I would think that an organization like WHO would be an appropriate conveyor of birth control supplies and information - and it's a job WHO should be able to do very effectively. Why lay that responsibility on the churches?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 02:01 AM

Do you live in Orange County??

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 02:13 AM

"Spirituality is a gift..it does not come from how many crucifixes are on the wall, or how many chants you repeat....it doesn't come from liturgical attendances..."
.,,.
Maybe not entirely, or even perhaps mainly, GfS. But these tendentious aids certainly help in fixing & reinforcing the 'spiritual' message, don't they?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 02:20 AM

Hi, GfS - I live in Placer County, northeast of Sacramento. Orange County has had a huge rise in its Hispanic population, and lost its reputation for conservatism in the process.

This page gives a political analysis of California. Figure 3 shows Placer as more conservative as Orange, but Shasta as the most conservative.

I think we share a congressman with Shasta with the recent redistricting.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 06:14 AM

Keith. You are not depriving a Christian child a place at school by lying about believing in all that nonsense to get your child a place for two reasons.

1. A state school cannot discriminate based on belief even though they break the law repeatedly by doing so. My taxes pay for equal opportunities.

2. There is no such thing as a Christian child.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ed T
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 07:41 AM

My mother was a rc, and my father an athiest.

However, both were comitted to ensuring that their children were exposed to a religious experience in early life. I once overheard my father talking to one of his friends about what seemed to be a paradox on his part.He said that, while he was not a believer, he saw a personal and social benefit of the Christian messages. He indicated that he did not want to impose his views exclusively, but preferred to have his children exposed to religious thought so they could make up their own minds as adults. In reflection, that seemed to make a lot of sense to me, so, I followed his example, IMO, with good results.

While there is no doubt that humans have used religion and distorted religious messages to promote bad causes throughout history. But, this should be more of a reflection on the people "who did the deeds", rather than the instruments they misused.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ed T
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 08:13 AM

What was interesting about my athiest father was a close friend of the local rc priest. They frequently visited each other, fished trout together, and even shared a drink or two on occasion.

When questioned about the odd relationship, I once overheard my father say "the reason we get along is we do not impose our "personal" views on each other. We have common interests and he, (the priest) knows he is not going to convert me and I know I am not going to convert him. So, we put aside those personal differences and talk about other things and just enjoy each others company".

Again, it makes sense to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 08:38 AM

Most of my family and friends are Christian. One or two of the in laws rather strongly. The local vicar where I used to live was a good mate, member of our Thursday night poker school and as with most people, we had a good few discussions over whisky regarding the subject.

I think what makes Internet debate slightly different is that whilst some people treat it exactly the same as they would face to face, many, me included tend to drift to the pole end of our opinions on the basis that it and by inference we don't exist.

I for one enjoy being more forthright than Ian could possibly be. It doesn't mean Ian would disown Musket. Just that Musket can speak his mind and that alone is cathartic.

So.. bollocks to all I suppose?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 08:41 AM

Dearie me. Let's see if I have this right. You don't have to be a brainwasher to think that religious "education" is a good thing. You can send your kid to the local faith school (in which, let's face it, you don't really know what's going on) and then offer correctives at home.

Well forgive me for concluding that this is just one unholy mess. Your children are taught that myth is truth, then they come home and you tell them something different. This is kids, remember, not mature adults. What's more, that's just you. My parents and millions like them just let the school get on with it. We all trudged off to Mass every Sunday but not once did we ever discuss religion at home. And I don't think that that was exactly a freakishly-unusual household, do you? You appear to be justifying the whole concept of the indoctrination of immature and highly-impressionable children on the basis that you, Joe Offer, give them context at home. Well, that's a bit of an eyes-shut notion if you don't mind my saying so. And let me ask you this schoolroom question (the other one is "who made God then?"): why, when faith and religion are such complex and grown-up matters (and don't tell me they're not - I don't need to ask you whether you've read a theology book lately!), can't we just leave it out until the kids are grown up? Seventeen or eighteen, let's say, when they are old enough to consider the information and decide for themselves, instead of having their faith and their instruction in it decided for them when they are too young to understand the consequences? What would be the harm?

(Actually, I do know the answer, but I'll wait for you to give your imaginative alternative before saying more...)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 08:52 AM

...And are you really trying to tell me that the Church's ban on contraception (and don't tell me that stuff about "conscience" and "choice" - you have no choice when you country can't or won't provide condoms), in those third-world countries that are predominantly Catholic, has absolutely nothing to do with high birth rates, high abortion rates, a raging epidemic of HIV/Aids among women and all the ensuing poverty that goes with it all? And you say that it's me who's being preposterous?

As for Mother Teresa, my opinion of her is based on my honest search for information about her. If you do the same thing you will find that it's impossible to come to any conclusion about her sheer wickedness that's any different to mine. None so blind...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 10:04 AM

Actually, if "militant atheism" has become a religion, which I doubt, then why is it that
Christians are so intolerant of it? Why, for example, on this thread, are brickbats being thrown at atheists and a religious war against atheists is being waged?

Why is it that some Christians are so insulted and offended that criticism is mounted at what they believe? Could it be that their so-called "faith" is so flimsy that it can't stand to be examined?

I have known some religious people, the Quakers, for example, who will not chastise those who criticize or examine how they believe but they quietly go on doing their work, most of it socially redeeming and disregard any comment that they don't like. They, in my experience, are not hypocrites because their actions are of social importance, at times of disaster they are there, sending food overseas to the needy.....so many things.

I like the famous Native American chief who said that "churches are where white men go to fight about god".

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 10:27 AM

MtheGM: "But these tendentious aids certainly help in fixing & reinforcing the 'spiritual' message, don't they?"

Maybe a 'religious' message, but not necessarily a 'spiritual' one. I suppose if you think that seeing a crucifix on a wall, gives a church the authority to smack a kid, you could draw an analogy to the Jewish clergy wanting Jesus killed...and Pilate okaying it, because he was in fear of losing his job!!
Gosh, sounds like the chemistry of church/state tyranny???

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 10:33 AM

It strikes me that many of our outspoken atheist contributors care more about venting their opinions than they do about the effect that it has on our rapidly dying community.

It is possible to discuss one's ideas about the nature of life and the choices we have in dealing with it without calling others names, though this is not as cathartic as some of you need.

The thing about catharsis is that no one wants to walk through the detritus, and as Mudcat dwindles, most of what we've got left is detritus.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 10:41 AM


Keith. You are not depriving a Christian child a place at school by lying about believing in all that nonsense to get your child a place for two reasons.

1. A state school cannot discriminate based on belief even though they break the law repeatedly by doing so. My taxes pay for equal opportunities.

2. There is no such thing as a Christian child.

The faith schools are oversubcribed.
If you lie and cheat to get a kid in, you are depriving an honest kid.

Also, you will have to explain to your kid why you lied and cheated.
The school will be telling the kid it is wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 10:58 AM

It strikes me that many of our outspoken atheist contributors care more about venting their opinions than they do about the effect that it has on our rapidly dying community.

It demonstrates an even greater degree of Christian panic than even I'd imagined when I see such resort to blackmail... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 11:45 AM

So you are saying that the children in performing schools whose parents don't believe in all that nonsense are not honest kids?

No hope for you then.

My lads both went to the local comp. My eldest, on becoming a father himself recently, paid me the compliment of saying we taught him how to think, not what to think. I doubt a well balanced child would call their parents liars and cheaters. I also doubt that the mainly irreligious teachers would encourage the thought. If society is such that people have to resort to saying they have an imaginary friend (preferably without pissing themselves laughing when saying it) in order to obtain a decent education, it is society and indeed government policy that has the issues, not the parents.

Good grades and education are not a result of reading from the big book of fairy stories but the discipline and sense of attainment that go with any school that does not see itself as child minder for chavs.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Stu
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 12:07 PM

"It strikes me that many of our outspoken atheist contributors care more about venting their opinions than they do about the effect that it has on our rapidly dying community."

Wow. You're going to lay the blame for the perceived decline of a forum at the feet of one part of the community?

Think about that sentence you wrote and what it really means.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 01:00 PM

Yeah. It is all the atheists fault. Bastards.

Zzzzzzzzzzzz

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 02:14 PM

The "decline" is dramatic, and it's been discussed in another, current thread, where I've made a more extensive comment. As to "blame", I am not blaming you, a careful reader will note that I didn't say you were responsible for it dying, just that you weren't helping things.

If I haven't said it before, I will say now that anything you have to say about music is more interesting than everything you have to say about religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 02:16 PM


So you are saying that the children in performing schools whose parents don't believe in all that nonsense are not honest kids?

No.
Only the ones who lied and cheated to get a place, like your friend did, and you say you would.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 03:13 PM

Obviously a parent who checks "Catholic" on an enrollment forum , when the family is not, is performing an immoral act.

Obviously a child taught to lie to his schoolmates and teachers about the faith of his family is learning to lie and is making lying part of daily life.

It is difficult to imagine that looking at crosses in the classroom would be more damaging than that. Though I guess that once they graduate they could go into politics or sell used cars.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 03:39 PM

"Actually, if "militant atheism" has become a religion, which I doubt, then why is it that"

No one on this thread has claimed that. The title above is title of the de Waal article on Salon. If you have a problem with it take it up with him. This is talked over and explained in the first few posts of this thread. You've claimed to have read the thread by now. Haven't you? Please show some respect for us and know what we said instead of arguing against things that we never did say.

>>Christians are so intolerant of it? Why, for example, on this thread, are brickbats being thrown at atheists and a religious war against atheists is being waged?<<

There is no religious war against atheists. I made it clear that I was talking about the aggressive tactics of three people and three only. Mr Dawkins, Mr. Shaw and Musket. It is interesting to note that at different times the first two have disqualified themselves from the definition of atheist. Comb the thread. Try to find a negative comment about atheists that was not about these three or a reply to another speaker about the words of that speaker. I've argued that calling people of faith delusional is childish and mean. But no where have I said that all atheists do it. In fact outside this forum the only place I have seen it defended or done was by Mr. Dawkins.

So please, discontinue this line of attack and please read the thread before the next time you complain about the contents.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 04:15 PM

Well, Steve, I guess I have to admit that I would not send my children to schools that take the literalist view of religion that you describe. One of the things I liked best about the Catholic schools my children attended, was that I was always welcome in the classroom. I was invited to sing and tell stories in all the classrooms every fall, and I occasionally taught a class on something or another. I was very much aware of what was being taught to my children - and it was nothing like what you describe.

And this particular Catholic school wasn't unusual - it was typical for most schools in most dioceses in the United States. No, I can't speak for English or Irish Catholic schools. But the general philosophy of Catholic education in the United States is quite progressive - often more progressive than some public schools that have to water down their curriculum to placate the fundamentalists and other special interest groups.

I knew my kids were getting a good education in Catholic school, that they were being taught to think for themselves. I knew Catholics who preferred to send their children to "Christian" (born-again) schools - mostly because they thought the Catholic schools were too liberal. Many of these "Christian" schools took the literalist approach you decry, doing their best to turn out good, Christian, Tea Party Americans.

My oldest son went to Jesuit High School in Sacramento, where often-wealthy students are required to spend a week with homeless people before graduation. Yes, there were complaints of "socialist brainwashing" from some parents, but the Jesuits kept the requirement.

Steve, I totally reject your view that exposing children to religious tradition is harmful. Much of my Catholic religious tradition is rich and interesting. Even if my children don't practice it, I think they learned a lot from it. Yes, there are extremes that are more like indoctrination than education, but I wasn't foolish enough to send my kids to indoctrination.

But more than that, I find your own view of religion to be rigid, literalist, and doctrinaire - very different from my experience of religion. If that's what you experienced in early life, then I'm sorry that happened to you. But that's not the way that religion is supposed to be. For me, it was fun to grow up Catholic.

I know people who grew up Catholic in India, the Philippines, Korea, several African and Latin American nations, England, Ireland, France, and a host of other nations. For some, it was rigid and oppressive. But for many, it was a rich and enjoyable experience - and they received an excellent education along with it.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 04:33 PM

Joe, My Mother taught in a Catholic school in a suburb of Toronto for several years. I think around 1997 to 2005 somewhere in there. The way she described it, it was almost as liberal as the public schools which she taught in for many years but without nearly as many discipline problems. She wasn't able to face the public school children at her age.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 02:36 AM

Keith.

It is not lying or cheating to say you believe in fantasy as there is nothing to lie about.

I wouldn't hesitate to join the thousands of parents who do this each and every year. If Igo to a wwedding, are you saying I am lying when out of decency I bow my head when the prayers start? It means nothing to me yet I do it. Same thing.

You seem to think that there are such things as Christian children. There aren't. Full stop. There are children of Christian or Muslim parents but like most cults, they have ceremonies such as confirmation etc as religions seem to accept the need to affirm faith through adult free will.

In the meantime, the law forbids faith schools to discriminate on grounds of religious membership or opinion of parents or carers. Many children in care are sent to such schools and I can confirm that their local children's social services departments are irreligious by law.

Your rather silly and in some ways nasty comments don't appear to have any credibility.

It's about time it came into these threads. Blasphemy is a victimless crime. Ha bloody ha

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 04:28 AM

If you participate in a wedding or funeral not of your belief, you are acting out of respect and not stealing a benefit to which you are not entitled by deception.
UK faith schools "may give priority to applicants who are of the faith of the school",[1] but must admit other applicants if they cannot fill all of their places and must ensure that their admission arrangements comply with the School Admissions Code.

That is why atheists lie and cheat to get a faith education for their kids even if it may deprive genuine Christian's of a place at a Christian school.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 04:47 AM

Religious schools in the U.S. are not supported by tax money. That eliminates some of the UK duplicity described above, but tuition for high school can be as much as $10,000 per year or more at private schools. Despite the cost, these schools are much in demand because of higher standards of education and a generally safer atmosphere. The Catholic schools in my Sacramento diocese welcome students of other faiths or no faith. There is usually a requirement to attend all classes, including religion - but the classes are generally taught in an "inclusive" manner.
But Catholics who belong to and participate in a Catholic parish, are offered a discount. Some people lie to get the discount, but such is life.
I sent my oldest son to a Jesuit high school. I liked the school, but I felt uncomfortable with the fact that so many of the students were so wealthy and materialistic. My son had to ride to school in a carpool, but the parking lot at school was full of fancy cars belonging to students. I talked with a few priests on the faculty about how the materialism bothered me. They agreed, and said that they did their best to fight off the materialism. But with tuition of $10,000 a year, materialism and wealth were dominant forces (gee- now it's $12,010). I sent my younger son to a (LaSalle) Christian Brothers school, and that school was much less materialistic. Tuition there is $11,835, but there are scholarships available - funded by the proceeds of the sale of the Christian Brothers Winery. The Jesuit "Abbey" winery in California wasn't worth much.

Still, the two boys' Catholic high schools have both been the school of preference for the Movers and Shakers of Sacramento, no matter what their religious preference. That has made us po' folks feel like second class citizens.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 04:57 AM

Redundant apostrophe. You may benefit from a school yourself Keith.

When a child gets into a school nobody is being deprived anything because a child is being taught. Silly.

There is no privilege for religion or non religion in a community and the clause you refer to is presently subject to a challenge in The European courts for discriminating public services on grounds of religion. Gove has already indicated that the faith schools will have to be reassessed after the ruling that even he expects.

Thousands and thousands of parents want the best for their children and if you say you are a Christian to get it, well it can't be lying because saying you believe in something that isn't based on fact or evidence makes you exactly the same as those who do. The difference is that you are deluding one less person, ie yourself.

Again, there are no Christian children. No such thing.

No matter. You keep reminding us that your vote goes to a right wing potty party so your views won't ever interfere with reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 05:10 AM

No Christian children, Musket?

Come to my parish church and tell the kids that. They will disagree.

I have to say that I disagree with you, too, since I've worked with Christian children all my life. They live in Christian families and they're brought up in Christian tradition - and they generally seem to be quite at home in that context. They may grow up and choose some other path - but for the time that they're children, they're Christian children.

Now, if you're Anabaptist and believe only in adults belonging to churches, then maybe that's a different story. But many (maybe most) Christians bring their children up as Christians - and rightly so. When the kids become adults, the choice is theirs.


-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 06:29 AM

They are children being brought up in a family with Christian values Joe and that is a very different thing. Just about every religion has a ceremony of rites of passage. There is a genuine reason for that.

You can say a child is blonde, has blue eyes or is American by birth but you cannot ascribe something suggestive such as religion and make mental leaps.

Children are by any value innocent. There rests the case M'Lud.

If by choice in the future retain their faith then you have another card carrying member and I hope it is a comfort for them rather than fuck their brains, but a child is a child and dressing them as adults doesn't alter it one jot. Your Bible explains it better than I can.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 06:39 AM

""brendan- please be assured that i was not,and am not now irritated by your pick and choose beliefs.i trust that my believing the bible does not irritate you either.""

Pete, nobody gives a tinker's cuss what you choose to believe.

The irritant is when you try to shove your beliefs down our throats as science.

Keep 'em where they belong, in your own mind and heart, and leave science to people who know what it is, no problem.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,keith A
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 06:52 AM


When a child gets into a school nobody is being deprived anything because a child is being taught. Silly

If the school is over-subscribed, as is often the case with faith schools, the lying family may well force out an honest family.
That is morally wrong.
Lying and cheating to obtain an advantage for your own is also morally wrong.
Making your child participate in the deception by rehearsing lies, is despicable.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 07:23 AM

"It is not lying or cheating to say you believe in fantasy as there is nothing to lie about. "

So the kids are not being told to lie to their teachers "because there is nothing to lie about"?


Keith I do not think you are getting the implications of what Musket is saying. He is saying that it is NOT morally wrong to lie to or about people of faith because they believe in "fantasy."

That is the type of provisional morality one usually sees in small, tight knit religious cults and sects which I will not name. This is the first time I have ever seen it expressed by someone who would not normally be considered by society to be a religious zealot.

One thing that such an attitude says to me that if you are religious or defending religion is that he has no moral or ethical barriers to lying to you. Anything he says to you could be a lie. I'm not saying that he is necessarily lying to you. I'm saying that he just said he has no problem doing so. It makes such a person a very poor source of information of course and an untrustworthy debating partner.

Please everyone I am not attacking all atheists. I am talking about the expressed attitude of one person.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Musket
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 07:44 AM

Don't be bloody stupid Sailor Boy, even by your own standards..

Keith, they are strong words which ring hollow when twisted in the way you have done.

We have schools in The UK. The state run schools are by law subject to equal access, regardless of faith, creed, colour, sexual orientation etc. This is covered by The Human Rights Act. The government has allowed state funded schools to express a faith and this is subject to challenge when they are the local state run school. In the meantime, the only way you can assert your legal right to education of your offspring in those areas where such schools are situated is to pretend to go along with their soon to be outlawed dogma.

It is not lying, cheating or anything else. it is ensuring a decent education for your children. And yes Jack, lying about your faith is not a crime as there is nothing tangible under law about it. Most people who call themselves Christians don't actually believe in all that nonsense as being fact, including many clergy. I recall an ex Bishop of Durham getting into hot water for saying the virgin birth, rising from the dead etc was cobblers to amaze ignorant peasants into accepting it as special.

Most politicians pretend to be religious in order to get the hypocritical vote. Most parents of children in faith schools are no more Christian than I am and happily say so.

Hypocrisy has many flavours and the false outrage of you two does you no favours whatsoever. Yeah, Yeah, I'm a Christian. Yeah, Yeah, I am smug. Yeah, Yeah, my words attacking Musket have no christian values contained in them whatsoever.

Jack, you have not been a trustworthy debating partner since you started pushing your beliefs down the throats of people you knew would react.

The only thing despicable here Keith is those who brainwash their children. Yep, I'm proud of the fact my lads were taught how to think rather than what to think.

Sanctimonious twats.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 07:54 AM

"Most politicians pretend to be religious in order to get the hypocritical vote. Most parents of children in faith schools are no more Christian than I am and happily say so."

How do we know he is not making this up as he goes? Does he have some sort of wholesale mind reading machine?   He says it is OK to lie. Is he lying? Tough question.

He certainly thinks calling people "silly" and "stupid" is an acceptable part of "debate."

I would think the very definition of stupid would be to tell someone it is OK to lie to people who have the same beliefs as them then expecting those people to trust his words.

It makes me think that his object is not to debate but to abuse. I think he is violating the terms of service at worst, being very disrespectful at best.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 08:27 AM

Of course, it's the various forms of Christianity that are " in your face"!
Five minutes ago, a couple of Mormons - or whatever - were knocking on my door.
Earlier this week, I was having a quiet coffee in café when a couple of Jehovah Witnesses tried to give me a leaflet.
Come tomorrow morning, I will be awakened to the sound of church bells.
Every week on BBC TV, there is a programme called "Songs of Praise"!
BBC radio has a daily [religious'] "Thoughts for today" message.

Now there is nothing coming from - militant - atheist to balance that lot!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 08:36 AM

That's right Jack. Explore whether you can get opposing views restricted. You have form in this regard.

My points are made from reading results of surveys, interviews and media interest. The Sunday Times commissioned a survey regarding pretending to believe in God to get your kids into performing schools. The results are widely published. The deputy Prime Minister and leader of the opposition have both declared that before admitting they are not Christians they had both gone along with the idea in order to ensure votes. My local MP where I used to live did likewise and after he retired said so.

And this will carry on happening whilst ever religions attempt to influence decent people.

Anybody who goes along with religious nonsense in order to gain equality has committed no crime, no moral problem and no issue. If religions seek to influence more, this is what they are encouraging.

The answer is to keep your faith in your churches and mosques and stop finding ways of ramming it down people's throats and then get upset when nobody wants to play silly games.

I repeat. Blasphemy. A victimless crime. Ha bloody ha.

In supporting parents in this way, I am part of the majority over here by the way. Sleep tight.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 09:46 AM

""Can you honestly say that nowhere in any of your posts is there a form of words that could be construed as meaning one should not believe in religion? I also feel that your description of Catholic schools in the UK is a distortion of today's reality.""

Yes Brendan, I believe I can honestly say that. My posts have expressed only my lack of belief in, or need for any organised religion or church. I have never, as far as I can recall, invited anyone to join me, let alone told anyone whet he should or should not believe.

My description of my childhood experiences at one specific Catholic grammar, under the auspices of one specific group of Jesuit brothers, could not, by any stretch of the imagination, be mistaken for a description of ""Catholic schools in the UK"", today or at any other time.

I think very carefuly about how I compose posts and it's disconcerting when they are then taken to mean something someone else would like to respond to.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 09:49 AM

"I repeat. Blasphemy. A victimless crime. Ha bloody ha. "

Blasphemy is not a crime at all and is not immoral.

Fraud is a crime. Lying on an application is fraud. Lying is immoral. You say it is OK to lie? You are immoral. These ideas are not complicated. But these ideas are the foundation or civilization.

I am not exploring ways to have your political views restricted. I am point out that you are being rude and engaging in personal attacks by calling them stupid and silly.

I'm sorry, it may be your view that I am stupid. Though you would have a very very tough time proving that I am stupid compared to you. But you don't have a right to express that view here. You are being allowed some leeway I would assume. But if your abuse of that leeway is pointed out and as your insulting talk continues to become a habit for you, you will probably find your posts restricted or deleted. Why wait for that to happen. Why don't you just cut down on the childish taunts?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 09:51 AM

""I apologize to you Don that I singled you you out. I was irritable at the time and singling you out was wrong.""

No apology required JtS, I've done it meself a time or six.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 09:52 AM

Don T,

I am pretty sure Brendan was talking to Steve Shaw when he said that. Are you sure he was referring to you?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 10:26 AM

""If I haven't said it before, I will say now that anything you have to say about music is more interesting than everything you have to say about religion.""

Let's see if i've got this straight Stim.

We post (most of us) aour thoughts and ideas on music above the line, and below the line you want music too?

Doesn't the prefix BS ring any bells then?

Have you not yet managed to figure out that Max deliberately placed this section to take BS away from the music?

Funny how most of those who want to change the way this forum is run post as Guests.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 10:37 AM

Thanks for the kind words Don. I don't think that Stim was aiming those comments with you Don. Pardon me for saying this but you seem to be looking for a fight with someone not looking to fight you. I've done that a time or six myself. I've found the results to be less than satisfying. Good luck to you though.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: mayomick
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 10:47 AM

I don't think that the vast majority of atheists are being deliberately insulting when they say that somebody who holds a religious point of view is delusional. The crux of the atheist critique is, after all, that religion is a form of superstition. If religious people find that offensive and insulting, it is what the atheist honestly thinks, and, so long as atheists aren't personalizing things it's something religious people have to put up with in a democratic society. For the most part religious people do just that. knowing that they are quite capable of dishing it out as well if they need to - I had a Muslim friend years ago who used to mock my defence of Darwin by calling me a monkey. You can put up with things like that if you know there's no bad intent involved.

"saying you believe in something that isn't based on fact or evidence makes you exactly the same as those who do."
That seems to be saying that a truthful religious person is exactly the same as an atheist who is deliberately telling lies, and that, what atheists have in the past regarded as religious delusion ,is in fact a lie perpetrated by billions of people every day, world wide.Perhaps that is what religious people find offensive - atheists effectively calling them liars ?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 11:12 AM

mayomick said:
"Perhaps that is what religious people find offensive - atheists effectively calling them liars ?"

But, surely, Christians are effectively calling Muslims liars because Christianity does not recognise Mohammed as a prophet of God!

Of course, Christians would think twice about stating those beliefs in public!

The truth is that Judaism, Islam and Christianity are - effectively - an insult to each other!

But - most of the time - they tip-toe around that fact!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 11:15 AM

mayomick, You have made my point perfectly.

Mr Dawkins uses the word delusional the same way that your Muslim friend to ridicule you and disrespect you as a partner in the "debate."

The fact is that you are not a monkey and I am not delusional.

Mr. Dawkins is stretching the definition of "delusion." He justifies that by quoting a quip. This is hardly logical scientific reasoning.
Mr. Dawkins is not being any more respectful and honest than your friend. He is going around the world claiming to represent science and logic and reason. I'm guessing your friend didn't claim all of that when he called you a monkey. Kudos to your friend.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 11:27 AM

"From: GUEST,Tunesmith - PM
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 11:12 AM

mayomick said:
"Perhaps that is what religious people find offensive - atheists effectively calling them liars ?" "

So, mayomick says something dubious, that makes it so. So pour more dubious comments on that. Is that what is happening?

The only religious person I know who has complained about Dawkins misuse of the word "delusion" is me. I am not offended. I have been making the point that his doing so puts him on an equal footing with those HE is complaining about. Which goes back to the point made in the de Waal article of the original post that some atheists are becoming dogmatic.

You two seem to be making the point that "we atheists are bad, but you religionists are worse. Since that reinforces my point, I don't think that I fundamentally disagree with you. We are just tidying up the details. Thank you sirs.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: BrendanB
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 11:39 AM

Don, Jack is right when he says that particular comment was addressed to Steve, not you.   (Irritatingly I used the word 'religion' when I should have used the word 'God' in the question I addressed to Steve, thereby weakening the point I was trying to make.)
I respect your punctilious adherance to a high standard of debate and would not suggest that you would instruct anyone regarding their beliefs.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 11:51 AM

Joe, I must respectfully disagree with you when you say that there are Christian children. No child is ever born into the world as automatically a Christian. They have to be taught to believe that way. Also, many of the children that you have cited may probably grow up to leave the Church. Indoctrination is one way that children are controlled.

"No one on this thread has claimed that. The title above is title of the de Waal article on Salon. If you have a problem with it take it up with him."

Jack, I have heard de Waal speak on two occasions and am reading his book, "The Bonobo and the Atheist" and he has never stated that "militant atheism has become a religion". That's not his title. He calls himself as a non-believer, an "apathist" meaning he doesn't care about the issue of whether god exists or not. Please cite the page number of his book where he declares this statement. I would like to see that in context with what he says as well.

Mr. Dawkins, if you ever met him Jack, would be very respectful of you personally. He would not consider you "delusional" in every aspect of your personality. You have yet to prove, however that god is not a delusion. There's no point in demonizing Dawkins for disagreeing with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 12:11 PM

Hello Sailor!

When reason knocks on the door of an empty house, childish taunts are an effective calling card. However, pointing out that blasphemy is or isn't a crime, however technical, doesn't help. It is a crime in many countries., and as you and I are in different countries, thank Clapton, you should be more careful with your statements. In any case, it is sn example of how in the past religions have had privilege, and the UK state schools farce are an excellent example of political pandering.

I am not immoral any more than you are ugly. I haven't seen your face and you are no judge of my view. You can agree or disagree but if it takes telling a sanctimonious headteacher tthat you believe in fairies to get a good education for your child, the system has an issue, not the parent. I doubt you ever read the licence agreement for software despite clicking that you have done. I have yet to meet anybody who has, although some ruddy pedant here will claim they do.

They are not Christian schools, they have to teach on the basis that all and no religions are part of society. Whether a child has been raised to believe in things that are beyond the laws of physics is irrelevant.

Keith said something about lying for your children. So... when you tell them God exists and he is watching them, that isn't lying then? Increasing their paranoia and making them feel guilty about enjoying life isn't child abuse? telling them what to think instead of teaching them how to think isn't the saddest indictment you can think of?

I love hypocrisy. It teaches me never to get complacent. To always challenge the malign influence of those who advocate restricting others. Those who wish to judge and those whose so called faith is so fragile they think mocking reason is clever.

I'd pray for you but sadly, there is no one to hear it.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: mayomick
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 12:33 PM

"But, surely, Christians are effectively calling Muslims liars because Christianity does not recognise Mohammed as a prophet of God!"

Not at all it's more like they are calling Muslims mistaken , unenlightened , wrong – delusional if you like!- but not liars . There's a distinction between those who tell an untruth because they're mistaken and those who knowingly tell an untruth.

For example . Somebody above wrote to say that my account of a conversation with an old Muslim friend was "dubious". If I had been making it all up , that would make me a liar. But if I genuinely believed that this conversation had taken place, but was mistaken in my reporting of it , or if my memory of the conversation was only the memory of a dream I once had , that wouldn't make my recounting of the imagined/delusional conversation here a lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 12:37 PM

"Please cite the page number of his book where he declares this statement. I would like to see that in context with what he says as well."

I see an article in Salon with this exact title "Militant atheism has become a religion" with his credit as author.

I haven't been making the claim that "Militant atheism has become a religion" If you had bothered to read the whole thread you would know that I distanced myself and tried to distance de Wall. But he did allow that title to be published in his name. Then you linked to the same article with a similar title making the same claim about Militant atheism. SO IF YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THOSE WORDS, YOU NEED TO TAKE IT UP WITH HIM and Salon.

I am sorry if it bursts your bubble about Dr de Waal, but that is just the way things are.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 12:47 PM

"Perhaps that is what religious people find offensive - atheists effectively calling them liars "

mayomick Please forgive me for expecting you understand that the claim that I had quoted was the "dubious" claim that I was referring to.

Here is is again.

"Perhaps that is what religious people find offensive - atheists effectively calling them liars "

and again.

"Perhaps that is what religious people find offensive - atheists effectively calling them liars "

HERE is an indication that I did not think that your conversation with your Muslim friend was dubious.

>>>mayomick, You have made my point perfectly.

Mr Dawkins uses the word delusional the same way that your Muslim friend to ridicule you and disrespect you as a partner in the "debate." <<<

Do you see that I used that "claim" to reinforce my point? I did! I did because it does. Your Muslim friend was a better man than Dawkins is IMHO.

I am sorry that I was not clear. Do you have any questions? Would you like for me to explain again?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 12:51 PM

"Hello Sailor! " from Musket, the voice of "reason."

Oh yes! The greeting that you said was a joke about male prostitution. please forgive me for reading no further. I just don't see the point.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 01:06 PM

Ah yes. When you jumped to a conclusion once. You have to be a reader of The Perishers to have seen the joke at the time and believe me, the male prostitute bit was your construction not mine you idiot.

So... You accept everything I put after hello sailor then? Whether or not you read it, which you did because earlier you were looking for bits to quote out of context, so you do read what I put, I cannot make the mental leap that you understand it.

Your earlier piss poor comments suggest not...

If you want to discuss male prostitutes, pm Akenaton. He seems to have a bottim fixation judging by his continuous reference to male on male sex.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 01:14 PM

"you idiot."

I stopped reading after that.

I hope you don't mind.

Next time I'll probably stop reading after "musket."

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: mayomick
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 02:31 PM

Thanks for clearing that up, Jack. My point in mentioning my Muslim friend was that atheists and religious people can argue and still get along. I'm not sure if I used the word "delusion", but I was arguing the general atheist line against Ibrahim at the time - I would certainly have used a word like it . He answered by saying that ,if I imagined I was a monkey , what was the point in arguing with me. "Go away monkey!"

Things have soured over the past ten years , and I'm not sure if I could have the same debates today as I did thirty years ago. Steve's agnostic positions have been politely expressed as far as I can see , and I don't think they would have evoked such a hostile reaction here ten years ago . But Steve is wrong to think that there is no such thing as a new militant atheism out there that is goading religious people , getting their backs up . The same atheists that published the anti- Islam Danish cartoons in 2005 in Ireland in the name of toleration , a few years later started organizing crucifixion parties on Good Friday - again in the name of toleration . Some of the images they published last year were worse than the ones on the indymedia site here:


http://www.indymedia.ie/article/99569?search_text=crucifixion%20party&userlanguage=ga&save_prefs=true

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 03:19 PM

My Dad used to say that he didn't believe in evolution because he isn't a monkey.

I explained to him that he isn't. He accepted the explanation and reinforced the idea that he did not come from a monkey.

I believe that evolution is the probable origin of man and that the bible stories are allegory. I don't call my dad "delusional" to bully him out of his beliefs. Even if I thought that, it wouldn't be polite would it?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 03:25 PM

My Dad used to say that "you should not search back too far in your family history, because you may find you are closely related to a monkey". :)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 03:27 PM

We are going to have to disagree about whether Steve has been polite. Thank you for you perspective on "new militant atheism out there that is goading religious people , getting their backs up "

I think that the biggest problem is not between Atheists & Christians. It is between Atheist agitators, and Muslims and good people of all creeds that dislike bigotry.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: mayomick
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 03:48 PM

I would say amen to that Jack, but , you know......mick

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 04:06 PM

Your dad made a good point Ed.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 04:35 PM

""Don T,

I am pretty sure Brendan was talking to Steve Shaw when he said that. Are you sure he was referring to you?""

You are absoutely correct and once more I apoogise to Brendan. I lokked at what appeared a single paragraph, and saw my name midway down, then made an unwarranted assumption, not looking at the name at the top.

I think this throat infection and the meds are causing brain fade.

Perhaps I ought to take a break, but when your breathing is so bad tha you can't lay down for too long, there's bugger all else to do. Tapping a keyboard is the only thing that doesn't make me breathless at the moment.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 05:03 PM

I empathize Don. My eyes have been hurting. Its made me cranky.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 10:07 PM

Things have soured over the past ten years , and I'm not sure if I could have the same debates today as I did thirty years ago. Steve's agnostic positions have been politely expressed as far as I can see , and I don't think they would have evoked such a hostile reaction here ten years ago . But Steve is wrong to think that there is no such thing as a new militant atheism out there that is goading religious people , getting their backs up . The same atheists that published the anti- Islam Danish cartoons in 2005 in Ireland in the name of toleration , a few years later started organizing crucifixion parties on Good Friday - again in the name of toleration.

If there is a brand of atheism that gets its oxygen from goading, then I distance myself from it. Likewise, those bloody idiots who thought it was a great idea to publish those cartoons are not in my camp. A good atheist is not interested in demonising. A good atheist is only interested in saying that their particular stance is predicated on their understanding of the evidence for and against the existence of God. As God can never be either proved nor disproved, all any of us have is evidence. It's down to you whether you accept tradition, witness, hearsay, edicts, visions and the sayings of holy men as evidence, or whether you set the bar higher. In the latter case, no "evidence" ever makes it and never will. That does not disprove God, but it makes rational people see that the likelihood of his existence is so small as to be completely inconsequential.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 07 Apr 13 - 03:31 AM

'Good people of all creeds who dislike bigotry'

Good coffee drinkers who dislike caffeine?

I'll tell you this Jack, you occasionally give good entertainment value if nothing else.

Still not up to debating my earlier points? never mind, far better than making you look an even bigger arse.

(Just think, this time you have the whole message to get through before I name call you. If ever you get as far as debating rather than pontificating, we might even get bloody progress. ..)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Apr 13 - 06:39 PM

I did read to the end Musket!

Not technically ... I only read to the "arse"

LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 07 Apr 13 - 09:00 PM

There have always been many different atheists without monolithic views. There will always be pushy Christians (called evangelists), Muslims, Jews, Buddhists etc. Militant atheism just means that instead of hiding their convictions, they are expressing them and offending all who are not atheists. Some are obnoxious as are some Christians, Muslims, Jews etc.

There are varying degrees of so-called militancy. Not all are obnoxious but adamant in their view that atheists should not be attacked because they don't believe. No atheist can hold a public office in the US today. That is an attack on civil liberties. Kids in high schools are vilified and cornered by their high school principals.

Going after atheists for their views is great sport among certain pushy religious people who use the "militant atheist" epithet to silence opposing views to their own.

If atheism is a religion then why not offer the same tolerance toward it as toward any other religion (of course I don't think it is a religion).

There is a good point to be made that many new "born again" atheists are still clinging to the religion that they once held but this is not true of every non-believer.

Dogmatism on any level is abhorrent, religious or not. Still, "militant atheism" is a term that is used like "anti-Semitism" today, to silence rather than open a discussion. "Islamophobia" is another one. "Terrorist"....another. It used to be "communist".

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Apr 13 - 04:09 AM

" Militant atheism just means that instead of hiding their convictions, they are expressing them and offending all who are not atheists. "

You are making progress. all week you have been saying that there is no such thing as Militant atheism.

""militant atheism" is a term that is used like "anti-Semitism" today, to silence rather than open a discussion. "

I am curious as to who has been doing this. I posted an article with the term in the title by one of your favorite authors to open a discussion about it. Who has been using it to silence people?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Apr 13 - 04:38 AM

Some atheists are 'militant', some just want to get on with their lives. So what else is new? I would imagine that Dawkins, who published a book with what was surely intended to be a provocative title, would admit to being, if not a 'militant', at least a proselytising atheist.

Myself? Sometimes the one, sometimes the other ~~ matter of such variables as mood, occasion, atmosphere, opportunity, degree of acquaintance... I am probably being a bit 'militant' on this thread; but that's what this forum is for, isn't it?

It's not a new phenomenon. Shelley was sent down from University College Oxford in 1811 for writing & publishing, and placing in all the local bookshops, a pamphlet called The Necessity Of Atheism.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Apr 13 - 05:13 AM

I see nothing wrong with militant atheism. IMHO people are entitled to their opinions.

The article simply makes the point that some militant atheists have become dogmatic. I certainly think that Mr. Dawkins has dogma and I think I have seen some of that dogma has spread to this forum. I am not even saying that having dogma is a bad thing. I gladly defend Mr. Dawkins right to his dogma even though I agree with almost none of it and I certainly dislike his approach.

What puzzles me is the denial that the dogma the defense by Mr Shaw and others, with arguments similar to "there is no atheist dogma" (even though both Dawkins and Shaw are not atheists by their own definitions), It all science and reason blah blah blah.

I say that in the very interesting article at the beginning of this thread that equally disses Christian and Atheist dogma, written by the atheist Frans de Waal, the point is well made that militant atheists have dogma. But I think it falls far short of making the case that militant atheism is a religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Apr 13 - 06:53 AM

One of the classic hallmarks of dogma is intolerance of those who believe differently than the speaker. This is often shown by attacking others' beliefs.

On this score, quite a few Mudcat atheists fit the bill far better than Mudcat religious believers.    Mudcat believers are far more willing to live and let live than many Mudcat atheists are.

If by some chance somebody disagrees with this assessment, I'lll be glad to provide (more) chapter and verse.

As I've noted before, I am not religious--just interested in fair play for those who are. Which, I observe, is not a major concern of many Mudcat atheists.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 10 Apr 13 - 10:48 AM

Frans de Waal is a non-believer. He is an "apathist" by his own definition and declares he doesn't care about whether a god exists or not.

Ron, I think you would have to provide chapter and verse on your criticism. I see brickbats being thrown on both sides of an argument that has never been clarified for if it were, there wouldn't be so many brickbats being thrown around like you just did by your accusation about some on Mudcat.

"Fair play" is in the eye of the beholder. There is a reason why religion is being held under scrutiny today and it's because it hasn't historically provided fair play for everyone. This causes some to react emotionally and perhaps not with clear communication. But there are reasons for these reactions that need to be explored.

"Militant atheism" is a canard that is used as a brickbat to stifle the concerns of those who hold non-belief. It is an attempt to stifle and tell others to shut up. The purpose of any discussion is not to stifle those with whom we disagree but to bring out in the open the concerns of different points of view.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Mrrzy
Date: 10 Apr 13 - 01:14 PM

Is shaving your head a hairstyle?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Apr 13 - 02:48 PM

"I see nothing wrong with militant atheism."
You still haven't explained "militant atheism" beyond a little name-calling, which you and your fellow theists have indulged in in spades.
You protested "conspiracy theory" when I suggested you had opened several threads so you could hop from one to another to avoid awkward questions, yet this is exactly what you are doing.
You asked me a number of questions on the 'atheist' and have studiously avoided my answers, which I have put below.
I know many Christians who pride themselves in their honesty; as you have made a point of accusing others of being dishonest why are you behaving so underhandedly?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 10 Apr 13 - 03:30 AM

"I have seen Atheists say that if you believe in God you are stupid and mentally ill."
Pretty small stuff compared to a lifelong of brainwashing from the day you begin to think and speak. Some sort of hard words are to be expected by somebody who climbs into the minds of our children and, using fear and coercion implants an irrational doctrine there that has been passed down the millenia.
"I think "lets work together in peace"
With who exactly, Atheists and believers, Catholics, Protestants, Muslims, all Christians....?
Inter-religious dispute has been and continues to be one of the great causes of hatred and a major threat to world peace on this planet - not much signs of lions lying down with lambs there.
Sounds to me as if you are mustering your forces for a 'last battle' in a war you are losing.
In my lifetime Christian churches have climbed into bed with some of the greatest monsters in history, Hitler, Mussolini, Pinochet, Salazar, Franco, Papandreou, Videla, Massera, Agosti......
"Did the C of E say "if you don't go to church you'll. (go to Hell or whatever?)"
Now your talking brand-names - the threat of hell and eternal damnation is part and parcel of every religion - sometimes it comes wrapped in a velvet glove, sometimes it is presented in all its magnificence.
"You are a real piece of work."
Not a bad "piece of work" yourself.
Evasion is the most common form of lying on all these threads and you have proved yourself a master of the art. You have not addressed once the effect of implanting myths and legends as facts into the minds of children, you have skirted around the behaviour of the church towards the faithful, particularly and most horrifically children, (hinting darkly 'it was them wot dunnit' "Did the C of E say....") - a form of inter-religious one-upmanship that continues to infest our lives, and you have whined at being called a few names at a time when the world is torn apart and threatened with extinction by inter-religious disputes.
You are not the victims here, and to claim you are is the greatest lie of all.
Whatever failings they may have, Dawkins and co have my gratitude for their robust attempts they are making to break the stranglehold of religion - I hope I live to see it, but I'll probably toasting my feet on the hobs of hell you have invented to terrorise people into submissive obedience.
Why not surprise us and answer some of the serious aspects of religion rather than dodging behind unfounded accusations of 'bullying' and 'persecution'.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Apr 13 - 03:10 PM

Is shaving your head a hairstyle?

Of course it is!

Minimalist coiffure!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Apr 13 - 03:10 PM

""Is shaving your head a hairstyle""?


Well, yes, especially if it is a Mohawk, also referred to as a mohican or an "Iro"- (even though, historically the hair was plucked out rather than shaved)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 10 Apr 13 - 03:30 PM

i suppose it depends on how "attack anothers belief" is defined.if not believing that anothers position is correct and true,then the whole spectrum of posters,or near all of us,are "attacking" anothers beliefs.if on the other hand it is more narrowly defined as verbal abuse,mockery,belittling,accusations of lying of persons, etc,i suspect that a detailed survey of posts would confirm ron davis opinion,an opinion he ventured without any of the negative traits outlined above.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 10 Apr 13 - 03:51 PM

Ok. I shall make a contribution based on giving my perspective on Pete's contribution above.

There is a huge difference between attacking a belief and attacking a position. The issue here is whether you see no belief as a belief. Compounded to that is the issue of arbitrary belief in the metaphysical being put forward as a hypothesis for gaps in scientific understanding for no reason other than an interpretation of ancient stories.

It's apples and pears. ..

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Apr 13 - 04:21 PM

All the ills of the world have to be somebody's fault, don't they Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Apr 13 - 05:14 PM

"The issue here is whether you see no belief as a belief. "

The issue here is whether one is suffering from the delusion that in these discussions it is possible to have "no belief." Dawkins, your hero is not so arrogant as to say that he is free of beliefs. That he is absolutely on firm logical ground. He simply says that he BELIEVES that the probability of him being wrong is very small. He uses a joke by Douglas Adams to illustrate this.

The Dogma that Musket (or whichever of our more arrogant Mudcat Atheists happens to be speaking at the time) is a creature of logic while "believers" are bound by their beliefs has been thoroughly debunked in these threads. They have been shown to fall far short of "Spock-like" logic as Dawkins

The apparent fact that he clings to his delusion that he is talking logically is an indication of the power of the Dogma.

pete and Rob Naylor are having an adult conversation. They are exchanging information that they have gathered with the goal of enlightening and persuading. Perhaps you have information to contribute Musket. I think it would be much

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Apr 13 - 05:22 PM

Guest,

I think, I hope, that Jim is just blowing off some over due steam. He is IMHO for the most part blaming the people responsible, the Nuns Priests, Bishops and Popes who condoned and conducted the wrongdoing. The spillover to other religions and even to me is understandable. His experience and Ebbie's and mine are very different. I haven't seen a dark side of religion that is nearly that dark. I wish I could say more about those topics but I don't have the knowledge or experience. I guess I am grateful that I don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Apr 13 - 06:39 PM

an-open-letter-to-the-church-from-my-generation

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 11 Apr 13 - 04:43 AM

Hello Sailor!

You say that pete is having an adult conversation. Is this the same pete who thinks the earth is young because the Bible is a better judge than scientific discovery? Poor bloody dinosaurs, first they get wiped out physically then they get wiped out metaphorically.

Dawkins isn't my hero, you are. I doubt he could ever argue bollocks so succinctly. I suppose the only thing worse than claiming you are consistently logical is having some idiot accusing you of being so. Strange logic indeed. Especially my firm belief that Sheffield Wednesday are the greatest football team ever. I doubt logic would support my stance nor influence my belief.

You haven't thought your insults through have you? Never mind, nobody seems to take you seriously. The main difference between us being I have no desire to be taken seriously. Im having a laugh.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Apr 13 - 07:36 AM

Musket. People can have an adult conversation as long as they respect one another and present their opinions honestly.

Name calling, taunting, ridicule, admitting that you have no reason to be honest, all things you have done on this one thread thread, have no place in adult conversation. Did I read you saying you are better in real life? I hope so.

"Poor bloody dinosaurs, first they get wiped out physically then they get wiped out metaphorically. "

Knowing about dinosaurs, believing in dinosaurs, doesn't make you and adult. Three year old children believe in dinosaurs. Two year old Christian Children think Dinosaurs think they are purple and can sing.

You think you know more scientific fact than pete. Unless he is very modest, perhaps you do. But that does not necessarily make you smarter. It certainly doesn't make you wiser. And everyone on this thread, probably on this forum knows whose behavior is more adult.

As an illustration of the comparison between you and pete in terms of varied intellectual talents. I offer this cartoon. I'm pretty sure that you are the monkey. Which animal pete is does not matter.

Monkey Musket

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Musket
Date: 11 Apr 13 - 09:31 AM

A bit deep if you ask me.

I prefer it on the other thread where you get curious as to whether I commit adultery with a chicken.

The Albert quote by the way is one I have been known to use in my real life. Believing in dinosaurs is however a bit like believing in my ability to scratch my arse. You quote pete as being enlightening. Clapton help us. If that bugger had his way, fairy tales would be taught at the level of science and if that isn't child abuse, I fail to see what is. Perhaps you should have a read of the young age creationist thread before you choose your mates. He and his mates are trying to hold back our understanding. Humans evolve the same as any other fauna or flora, and superstition is playing its last dodo encore.

If you want an adult conversation, I suggest you first do the following;

1. Find out what BS means as a prefix for these threads.

2. Find out what an adult is.

3. Set out an action plan for becoming one.

I don't even pretend to know more about science than pete. However, I have yet to post a thread displaying contempt for how "science" derives its data. Nor have I pounced on an irregularity and tried filling the gap with my imaginary friend. So on balance, I may not know more or less than him but I doubt I am shredding my PhD thesis just yet.

(On the subject of science versus fantasy, that's a thought. A central plank of my thesis is based on a hypothesis that has since been revised. If I had written about theology rather than physics, I would have been able to argue my theory still stood. Hence the contempt rational people have for fantasy dressed as fact.)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 07:49 AM

As I've noted, I have no dog in this fight.   I have no idea of the truth or falsehood of any religion. Neither, by the way--- despite the more-rational-than-thou stance of Mr. Shaw, Musket, and other stalwarts who attack religion and the religious--do they.   

It's however possibly of interest that the some of the same arguments they use to discredit Catholics and Catholicism, especially sexual abuse by some priests, were used by the Nazis circa 1935-36 in Germany---for exactly the same purpose.

Does that make Mr. Shaw, Musket, et al. Nazis?    Somehow I doubt it.   But the approach is, intriguingly, precisely the same.

And it is just as fair to blame all or most atheists, or atheism, for the Nazi attacks on religion (or those by Stalin and Mao) as to blame all or most Catholics, or Catholicism, for sexual abuse by some priests.


Gee, I wonder what kind of response this news will get.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 08:34 AM

"that some of the same"

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 08:43 AM

Mudcat believers are far more willing to live and let live than many Mudcat atheists are.

Ah, that old chestnut. Well, a believer who truly "lives and lets live" has two hoops to jump through. First, do they conduct their personal religious affairs in private, or do they subscribe to loud-mouthed organisations that have bishops on every other news bulletin and religion advertised large all over our streets and towns? Second, do they let their children "live and let live" by waiting until they are old enough to understand, or do they start to indoctrinate them while they're still toddlers with baby Jesus and firm it up from there all through their childhood? I'm afraid there are plenty who complain that they should be allowed to live and let live who fail both these tests.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 09:26 AM

""Ali Razeghi, a Tehran scientist has registered "The Aryayek Time Traveling Machine" with the state-run Centre for Strategic Inventions"".

And, some thought it was impossible:)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 10:17 AM

Mr. Shaw and Mr. Musket are certainly outside the main stream. "Live and let live" is very unlikely in a world where they are telling others how to raise their kids.

Though it is a testament to the power of Mr. Dawkins Dogma.

" First, do they conduct their personal religious affairs in private, or do they subscribe to loud-mouthed organisations that have bishops "

This is a another novel line in the sand. My affairs aren't private if a bishop goes on TV?

Its pretty clear that Shaw and Musket have issues far beyond religion. Earlier in this thread Musket said he felt free to say things here that he could not say in real life. He called it being "honest."

Perhaps such honesty should be confined to the office of a licensed professional where sedatives can be introduced when it gets out of hand. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 11:43 AM

Mr. Shaw and Mr. Musket are certainly outside the main stream. "Live and let live" is very unlikely in a world where they are telling others how to raise their kids.

Gosh, no-one's telling anyone how to educate their kids in matters religious (er, slightly different from "raise", but we can let that pass). Just saying that if you wish to define yourself as live-and-let-live, in other words, presumably, not evangelising and indoctrinating people, one would logically expect that to extend to their children as well. If you send your kids to schools which make them bow their heads in praise of or in supplication to a fellow who might not exist, with prayers and hymns expressing unsupported certainties about him, and tell them that it's disrespectful at best and sinful at worst to demur, you're hardly practising a philosophy of live and let live with them, are you?

" First, do they conduct their personal religious affairs in private, or do they subscribe to loud-mouthed organisations that have bishops"

My affairs aren't private if a bishop goes on TV?

A beautifully disingenuous conflation there. Heheh. At least you were honest enough to include the original to show us all what a clot you can be.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 12:38 PM

(live and let live) in other words, presumably, not evangelising and indoctrinating people,

In whose other words? Are you that stupid? No you can't be. Someone has given you access to a computer.

You can't practice "live and let live with your children" You can't be that much of a moron. You have to be playing the Monty Python argument game!

The conflation my dear man was with living privately and "loud mouthed bishops"

More Pythonesque humour I presume?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 01:00 PM

Read all about it!

Atheists can be spotted by their ability to tell people how to raise kids. Sailor spills the beans!

You know, that's a bit rich making a mental leap from my comment that my eldest paid me the compliment of saying I taught him how to think rather than what to think. Your observation about people's ability to be more forthright in forums than in real company meaning you question my honesty is a little beyond reason but no matter. After all, the object of the exercise is to identify atheism as a Creed so you can sanctimoniously denigrate it as a lesser belief than your own.

Well I've got news for you. You've failed.

On a more positive note for you, you prefaced this thread by stating your thesis (sic) has a hypothesis that states the more aggressive towards religion you are, the more strict your religious upbringing.

As you keep using me as an example of outside of mainstream I can inform you that to my knowledge I am not unique and have never had religion nor a religious upbringing. My parents did but saw the folly of inflicting it on us.

I suspect there are more people than ever in the same boat. When my granddaughter is christened soon it will be tradition and family event rather than taking any interest in what the vicar is actually saying. Churches tend to delude themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 01:13 PM

My! but you are thick Musket. I said that you two are "outside the main stream" because you do it. You two don't do that because you are atheists. You do it because you are so in love with your own opinions and insults that you have no idea how stupid they sound.

You both are like the vendor in the Parrot shop sketch.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 01:37 PM

Yes. British.

Although Michael Palin is a far nicer person than me.

If you must quote out of context, try to fit in the bits where I state I do not see myself as an atheist. Plenty out there. Irreligious yes but atheist is a term others use not me. I don't describe myself as such. In fact I nod appreciatively at the comment Einstein said on the matter.

A huge difference between being aggressive and taunting sailors.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 02:32 PM

CD!!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 02:46 PM

>>>If you must quote out of context, try to fit in the bits where I state I do not see myself as an atheist.<<<

It is not the one or two times you have said that that gets to the truth of the matter it is all the time that you inadvertently admit to being an atheist.

>>>Atheists can be spotted by their ability to tell people how to raise kids.<<<<

I say that you and Steve are trying to tell people how to raise their kids. You generalize that to all atheists and include yourself.

YOU brought up the term atheist in this thread. You and Steve have been doing this all along in many of the threads, where I have been trying to stick to "Neo-atheist, New-atheist or Dawkins, Mr Shaw and Musket.

>>where I state I do not see myself as an atheist<< you haven't been paying close attention, I've implied that the three of you are hypocrites for doing this a few times.

Put is this way. If it walks like an atheist, it talks like an atheist, it defends the idea of being an atheist and it takes it personally when atheists are insulted....

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 04:38 PM

Having read Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris, and Dennett it is my opinion that the only major thing that they have in common is wanting to protect their ability to speak their minds on this subject. When they do this, however, they are charged with being "militant" because religious people have been telling non-believers for years to just shut up. Those days are gone.

A religion has to have adherents that fundamentally agree on many points. Atheists don't do that. They think for themselves. I think this is an ideal goal in raising children. There may be some atheists who try to indoctrinate their children with their ideas, but this is not the usual case. Some atheists have gone so far as to allow their children to go to Sunday School just to see what it is or to take them to a church service for their education.

"Militant" is used as a pejorative that means angry or aggressive. The two terms are not necessarily together in meaning. One can be aggressive without rancor but the idea to use "militant" is a device to discredit atheists and their respective non-belief.

Even if Atheism were a religion (which it is not) hypothetically, it would have encountered the most vicious form of religious intolerance equivalent to Mosque burning, Temple desecration or Sikh shooting. For this reason, I am thankful that atheism is not a religion although there are too many religious fanatics that treat it this way.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 08:40 PM

A religion has to have adherents that fundamentally agree on many points. Atheists don't do that. They think for themselves. I think this is an ideal goal in raising children. There may be some atheists who try to indoctrinate their children with their ideas, but this is not the usual case. Some atheists have gone so far as to allow their children to go to Sunday School just to see what it is or to take them to a church service for their education.

Agreed. also, any "atheist" who tries to indoctrinate their children with their notions is not an atheist. There can be be no certainty in atheism (unlike religion), so indoctrination is not an option. Our children went to schools which were not faith schools but which abided by the law of the land in providing acts of "daily worship". We could have withdrawn our kids from those lessons, but we thought it far better to let them not stand out from the crowd (no-one else withdrew their kids) and provide the counterbalance at home. They are, now in their thirties, both free thinkers and both are atheists with no pressure whatsoever from us. I tend to think that they're the lucky ones.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 09:11 PM

"A religion has to have adherents that fundamentally agree on many points. Atheists don't do that."

You two are doing that now!

LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: olddude
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 09:17 PM

Strings
until I got pissed off a little while ago and started an atheist thread, it was no person of faith that told anyone here how to believe or what to believe. The never ending attacks on faith here in mudcat is coming from a few atheists. And in fact are trying to tell others what they can believe or not believe. It is the exact opposite as what you just said. Now as far as my rights to speech, atheism is indeed a religion to many. They want to try and tell others what they can and cannot say. I am no religious zealot. But religious zealots too can speak their opinions and not just atheists as some would love to see happen. Freedom of speech does indeed go both ways

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 02:38 AM

I seem to be lumped into some virtual gang that is attacking religion. Sorry old dude, I can't see many examples of that. From anyone.

Now.. attacking the idea that religion has a place in society at large I will question. Attacking the idea that somebody's delusion should have an effect on me I will question. Being told my concerns are straw men I will question. Seeing religious privilege masquerading as religiosity freedom I will question.

When I call it nonsense and refer to imaginary friends and comfort blankets, when I point out the bizarre sense of justification it gives to controlling others, when I see it getting legal rights here in The UK to subjugate women and gay people, when I point outthat the little boy has a point and I too fail to see clothes on the emperor. I am expressing an opinion.

So when my opinion is given labels in order to either scorn or pity, it doesn't exactly make me wonder if I may be wrong in some way. I often alter my view on matters after debate, in fact I see it as part of my professional life, but the fascination with seeing lackof bbelief as a belief says more about the instability of faith than it does about rational thought.

Live and let live. Something the door knockers and Lords Spiritual haven't quite got the hang of.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 09:11 AM

The never ending attacks on faith here in mudcat is coming from a few atheists. And in fact are trying to tell others what they can believe or not believe.

Find me one example, with quote please, of any atheist here "telling" people what they can or can't believe. Go on, you have acres of threads to choose from. It should be plenty easy enough for you to support this assertion of yours. Go on - put up or...

Now as far as my rights to speech, atheism is indeed a religion to many.

Well, apart from your sentence containing a classic non-sequitur, we've been over (and debunked comprehensively) the myth of atheism being "a religion" so many times. Bringing it up in this manner yet again is nothing more than a lazy, cheap shot.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 09:20 AM

Incidentally, if you really want to find people who tell people what to believe, you'll find them in droves the world over in churches, synagogues, mosques and faith schools. Telling you to believe that myth is truth and you'd better not argue. Starting, unfailingly, with tiny children far too young to understand what they are being told to believe (catch 'em young, eh, or don't catch 'em at all...?). It's actually laughable that a Christian should be accusing atheists that it's us who perpetrate anything near equivalent to this egregiously immoral activity. Cast out the beam, say I.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 10:48 AM

"Pride is pleasure arising from a man's thinking too highly of himself."

"Further conceive, I beg, that a stone, while continuing in motion, should be capable of thinking and knowing, that it is endeavoring, as far as it can, to continue to move. Such a stone, being conscious merely of its own endeavor and not at all indifferent, would believe itself to be completely free, and would think that it continued in motion solely because of its own wish. This is that human freedom, which all boast that they possess, and which consists solely in the fact, that men are conscious of their own desire, but are ignorant of the causes whereby that desire has been determined."

Both quotes, Baruch Spinoza

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 02:47 PM

Mayomick when you say "I'm not sure if I could have the same debates today as I did thirty years ago." I think this may be true. You can see the insults and brickbats that have flown on this discussion already.

Musket, excellent point. "but the fascination with seeing lack of belief as a belief says more about the instability of faith than it does about rational thought."

It is absolutely delusional which is a by-product of a shaky "faith". It's because those accusations reflect a need to verify that "faith" by the folks who make them. Shakespeare said, "The lady doth protest too much, methinks." which has been changed to "Methinks thou dost protest too much" to refer to those on a soap box whose actions belie their intended claims and try too hard to convince others that they are right. It backfires in most cases.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 07:34 PM

I suppose I could have posted this in one of the Maggie threads, but it contains much that is relevant here. I apologise for my lack of ability to do proper links on this website. You'll just have to copy and paste.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2013/apr/12/margaret-thatcher-doubt-wimps-human

Giles Fraser, a man of the cloth par excellence, is one of the very few believers who consistently expresses his faith in a way I can truly respect. This is an excellent article, scathing about Thatcher's apparent religious certainties and explicit about how true faith cannot have certainties. An awful lot of religion's millions of proselytisers could learn much from him. Here's an excoriating analysis of Thatcher faith, and, unfortunately, it's a brand of faith that is all too common and which is grist to the mill of the Dawkinses (and Shaws, Jack) of this world:

For her, Christianity was all about being on the side of what is right. It was a moralistic version of Christianity that, when crossed with a Samuel Smiles philosophy of self-help, would inoculate her against doubt and criticism. Thus she wore her indifference to objection as a badge of pride. That was what she meant by faith.

And how about this for a novel and focussed definition of faith that will prickle a believer or two:

But what she never appreciated was that faith is fundamentally bound up with doubt. Faith strains to imagine a world so much more expansive than the measure of our own minds and convictions. This is why faith is always a certain sort of loss, the failure to comprehend things in their totality. Faith is the confession of a failed atheism, the suspicion of a constant remainder to the neat equations of life. It begins with an ineradicable "I do not know", continually straining to make raids into this unknowable, continually returning with the wisdom gained by another fresh defeat.

But read the thing. It isn't long, and I have no wish to be accused of quoting out of context.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 11:42 AM

Dan, I didn't get that atheists were telling anyone how to think. That's an impossibility.
They were criticizing religion with an attempt at logic in their diagnosis. Sometimes, this is unachievable but attacking someone's faith is impossible as long as those who proclaim it are really devout and sincere. Then, instead of reacting in a violent way, they should merely shrug their shoulders and say "that's your opinion" instead going after them because their feelings were hurt.

The idea that atheism has become a religion doesn't make sense because you can't be religious and non-religious at the same time. It's an oxymoron.

"Atheists" is probably not the best term to describe non-belief. They (atheists?) may agree on many points but not all in the absolutist sense that many religionists do. They don't have a bible, koran, torah, baghavad ghita or any holy book upon with which to base their ideas. Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris, Dennett, Rand, Marx or anyone else who uses the term to define their point of view of non-belief represent no great community of "believers" as do the adherents to religion. To say otherwise is a distorted lie.

It's true that Ayn Rand has a coterie. Marx through Lenin established a government but both are reputed "atheists" and they don't agree on anything. It's only because new ideas about the negative aspects of religion are being revealed, not by "prophecy" but by individuals who write books on the subject that these ideas engender hostility instead of consideration, acceptance or rejection.

I will always respect and admire people who are kind, socially conscious, not given to picking fights, open to ideas for examination and reflect the loving that Christians often preach about but never practice. That is very much in evidence here on Mudcat.

The insults and brickbats in the final analysis are meaningless. As Joe Offer said, it's how you behave in society, what you do to improve society, how you act in your personal life and as EdT implied, how you are not just tolerant but understanding of another's point of view, but I add, not having to agree with it and be able to express that disagreement in a logical, communicative and forthright way, this is more important then wound licking because someone disagrees with your ideas.

As I said, before, talk is cheap. To walk the walk is harder but ultimately the most important.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 05:36 PM

" Freedom of speech does indeed go both ways." I agree Dan and I hope that the ensuing discussions will honor that fact. I am not going to tell anyone what to believe. That's an "inalienable right" in our US Constitution. Remember Dan, when we discuss ideas, ideologies or religion or non-religion this (at least on my part) is not an attempt to disrespect anyone personally. I try to stick to the issue and not insult someone who doesn't agree with me. That's the only rational way to have a conversation.

There are those who react emotionally, passionately and take things personally. The preferred way to discuss in my opinion is to try to see the other's point-of-view and discuss that without insults, invectives or hurt feelings. Only then, can you have an adult conversation.

The problem with America today is that the art of conversing this way has become an endangered species. People don't know how to talk to one another anymore. Because of the political climate we live in we have "talking points" where pundits are trying to keep score rather than understand another's point of view. They act as a model on discourse because so many people see this on TV talk shows and pseudo news broadcasts.

So essentially, I agree with you Dan and would rather generate light than heat.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 06:21 PM

Not so fast there sir! You can't use the lack of a book to follow as a difference.

They don't have a bible, koran, torah, baghavad ghita or any holy book upon with which to base their ideas. Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris, Dennett, Rand, Marx

Dawkins followers have "The God Delusion"
Hitchen's "God is not Great"
Rand "Altas Shrugged", "The Fountainhead" and a number of "non-fiction" polemics
Marx-the Communist Manifesto and enough writings on Communism to fill a small library.

I know Harris and Dennett have books. I just don't know what the names are.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 06:49 PM

"There are those who react emotionally, passionately and take things personally. The preferred way to discuss in my opinion is to try to see the other's point-of-view and discuss that without insults, invectives or hurt feelings. Only then, can you have an adult conversation."

OK Stringsinger, It is my point of view that when you repeat things like

"God is a delusion", "
"Faith can be very very dangerous, and deliberately to implant it into the vulnerable mind of an innocent child is a grievous wrong."

you are insulting a group to which you know I belong, you know Dan belongs to that group as well, and therefor you are insulting me (and Dan)

In my opinion this whole thread has been about whether The new atheists and two people on this forum are being intentionally insulting when you say those things.

I refuse to have a conversation with you ABOUT RELIGION if you are in accord with those two statements. I believe they are childish, insulting and semantically wrong.

Those two statements are in my opinion, the foundation of fundamentalist atheism. They are Richard Dawkins' dogma and not moderate in any way.

My question to you is simple do you accept Dawkins' dogma or do you want as you put it "an adult conversation?"

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 09:18 PM

OK Stringsinger, It is my point of view that when you repeat things like

"God is a delusion", "
"Faith can be very very dangerous, and deliberately to implant it into the vulnerable mind of an innocent child is a grievous wrong."

you are insulting a group to which you know I belong, you know Dan belongs to that group as well, and therefor you are insulting me (and Dan)

Hmm. Well Stringsinger is a far less abrasive fellow than I am, and it's my bet that he never sets out to insult anyone. However, he speaks truthfully when he says that it is wrong to implant faith in the mind of a child. Let me put these questions to you, and to anyone else who thinks it's fine to bring up children in your particular faith:

*Do you not accept that your child is born into your religion by nothing more than accident of birth?

*Do you think that a tiny child can possibly understand the complexities and the implications of the religion you are bringing him up in?

*Do you think that your religion is the one true religion?...

*...If not, what gives you the right to bring up your child in your particular religion and not another one?...

*...if so, on what do you base your certainty (taking into account that inconvenient accident of birth) that you are right to indoctrinate your child (bearing in mind that indoctrination relies on the certainty you appear to possess)?

*Why do you not simply satisfy yourself that education (in the true sense of the word) in comparative religion and the history of religion is perfectly sufficient for your child until he reaches an age at which he can decide to accept, or reject, your particular faith of choice? What are you afraid of?

*Did you have your child christened? If so, how do you justify that? And how do you feel about having a child that was a "Christian child" from the time when they couldn't yet speak, think or even focus their eyes? Was that really fair? Why didn't you wait until they were old enough to decide whether they wanted to be a Jew, a Muslim, a Buddhist, or none of the above? What's your excuse? And again, what were you afraid of?

*Did you send your child to a faith school at which you knew they would be herded off to services and force-fed prayers and hymns containing certainties about what might very well be no more than myths? If so, why did you choose that school and not a school with proper secular values?

*Can you, in all conscience, making every effort to be honest and true to yourself, fail to confront a single one of these questions?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 10:20 PM

It is the parent's responsibility to raise the children Mr. Shaw. Children WANT to emulate their parents.
It would be pretty alienating, I think if the parents were devout and hired a babysitter when they went to church.

*...If not, what gives you the right to bring up your child in your particular religion and not another one?

Because it is YOUR RELIGION AND YOUR Child. It is your right and responsibility. That's what Joe told you he did. He told you his kids turned out OK. How would a Christian parent even know how to raise a Hindu? Not to mention that the child might not even feel he belongs in the family.

And are you suggesting that Atheist parents sent their kids to Sunday School to see what "other religions" are out there or are do you just want to tell Christians how to raise their kids?

What gives YOU the right to tell other people how to raise their kids?

You do not appear to see our society for what it is. Would you seriously impose this on people? Would you say this to a young mother. How are you different from a protester in front of an abortion clinic? Are you LESS dogmatic? Are you less shrill? Are you less pushy?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 12:49 AM

Amen, Jack.   It appears you have Mr. Shaw well pegged.    "less shrill" is a nice touch.

Isn't it good to know that Mr. Shaw, the soul of tolerance and good feeling, will no doubt just let the thread die now without any retort?

We should all try to emulate his calm even-handedness.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 04:33 AM

"Marx-the Communist Manifesto and enough writings on Communism to fill a small library."
Marxism is not a religion, it is a socio/economic/politico/ theory, and to describe it otherwise is a typical lie of those who would continue with the practice of the enforced teaching of children by men and women of doubtful repute.
In the "small library's" worth of Marxist literature, religion features very small.      
The oft-quoted "opium of the people" was intended for the introduction of a work by Marx, 'A Contribution to the Critique of Hegel's Philosophy of Right'; which was actually never written - the introduction alone was published in 1844 in Marx's own journal.
It is an continuing lie claim Marxism as "a religion", and it is a total distortion of the facts to say that Marx or any major writer devoted anything but a passing mention to religion other than as a tool of oppression.
On the other hand, the last Tzar of Russia, at the height of his power was heavily influenced by an insane Christian monk who is regarded by many in modern non-Communist Russia as saintly.

"Grigori Yefimovich Rasputin (Russian: Григорий Ефимович Распутин; IPA: [ɡrʲɪˈɡorʲɪj jɪˈfʲiməvʲɪtɕ rɐˈsputʲɪn]) (22 January [O.S. 10 January] 1869 – 29 or 30 December [O.S. 16 December] 1916) was a Russian mystic and advisor to the Romanovs, the Russian Imperial family. He was never officially connected to the Orthodox Church but considered a "strannik" (or pilgrim) wandering from cloister to cloister. He is even regarded as a starets (ста́рец, "elder", a title usually reserved for monk-confessors), believing him to be a psychic and faith healer.[1] He impressed many people with his knowledge and ability to explain the Bible in an uncomplicated way.
In 1907 Rasputin was invited for the first time by Tsar Nicholas II and Alexandra as a healer for their only son, Tsarevich Alexei, who suffered from hemophilia. It is supposed he became an influential figure in the later years of the Tsar's reign, especially after September 1915. It has been argued[2] that Rasputin helped to discredit the tsarist family, leading to the fall of the Romanov dynasty in February 1917. The Tsarina and her family saw Rasputin variously as a saintly mystic, visionary, healer and prophet but his enemies, as a debauched religious charlatan, heavily interested in sexual relations with his followers. There has been much uncertainty over Rasputin's life and influence, as accounts have often been based on dubious memoirs, hearsay and legend.[In Russia he is nowadays seen by many people and clerics, among them Elder Nikolay Guryanov as a righteous man"
I thought Christians were "seekers after truth - tut-tut
Jim Carroll

Some facts about Marxism and religion from, a pamphlet I picked up when I was working as an electrician at the Humanist Society headquarters in London.

"The founder and primary theorist of Marxism, the nineteenth century German sociologist Karl Marx, had an ambivalent attitude to religion, viewing it primarily as "the opium of the people" that had been used by the ruling classes to give the working classes false hope for millennia, while at the same time recognizing it as a form of protest by the working classes against their poor economic conditions. In the end, Marx rejects religion.
In the Marxist-Leninist interpretation of Marxist theory, developed primarily by Russian revolutionary Vladimir Lenin, religion is seen as negative to human development, and socialist states that follow a Marxist-Leninist variant are atheistic and explicitly antireligious. Due to this, a number of Marxist-Leninist governments in the twentieth century, such as the Soviet Union and the People's Republic of China, implemented rules introducing state atheism. However, several religious communist groups exist, and Christian communism was important in the early development of communism."

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 05:31 AM

I had my children christened. I support local traditions and older family felt more comfortable with it.

It doesn't make them Christians. They couldn't speak and ga goo isn't exactly informed consent.

Another local tradition is Morris dancing. Those who introduce their children to that tradition don't to my knowledge say their kids buy into ancient fertility and harvest assurance.

Kids want to emulate their parents. Hence be careful what gets hard wired into them. My lads are as trapped as I am in supporting a football team that doesn't offer much in terms of success but they like me are trapped anyway.

Same with religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: mayomick
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 05:46 AM

Dan, I didn't get that atheists were telling anyone how to think. That's an impossibility. ....stringsilver

What Stringsilver wrote about the impossibility of telling people how to think is right .But telling people how to think is what some people claiming to be atheists are doing here. I'm not sure who it was said that he was proud he taught his kids how to think , and not what to to think .
Muskett wrote above :
"It is seeing religious equality turning into religious privilege and that is worth resisting by intelligent people who prefer to be taught how to think rather than what to think".

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 05:58 AM

Because it is YOUR RELIGION AND YOUR Child. It is your right...

Well, by that logic it would be no-one's business but yours if you decided to bring up your child in a religion that demanded they be sacrificed to the gods at 14, or that your daughter should undergo genital mutilation at some point during her childhood. I am saying that (without shrill, the attribution of which quality anyone who knows me personally would find laughable), by telling your children that God is true and is a huge exception to the need to apply critical thinking and the demand for evidence, you are potentially damaging them intellectually just as much as sacrifices and mutilations damage them physically. This is a challenge to you that you can't just shrug off by saying it's my kid and I'll do what I like. When they grow up, your kids go into bigger society and that affects far more people than you, them and your family. And don't tell me that a religious upbringing is a benign thing when you live in a country in which almost half the population deny evolution, in which near-lunatics with a cockeyed religious message receive mass adulation, in which abortion doctors live in fear of their lives thanks to religious zealotry and in which a President can publicly invoke God in justification for starting a criminal war. Not so benign, and you don't get off the hook by saying that you brought up your kid that way and, because of your interventions, they survived. The obvious riposte to that is , why did you put them through it in the first place? Why didn't you ,from the outset, educate them to be free thinkers? Yeah, your child, your right. Your child has rights too, and one of the key ones is the right to education. Last time I looked, that didn't mean some education with big exceptions. Telling your child that evidence-innocent mythology is truth (and that people who tell you otherwise are simply being shrill, or militant, or something like that) is no part of education by any definition I've ever seen. In fact, it's anti-education.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 06:21 AM

I had my children christened. I support local traditions and older family felt more comfortable with it.

Well I refused to allow my two to be christened and I met with huge condemnation from certain quarters in my family (they're in their 30s now and I still receive criticism to this day). They both attended religious instruction lessons at their (non-faith) schools, the law of the land (we could have withdrawn them, but that would have made them into outcasts in the eyes of their peers - another non-benign effect of faith...) Your point about supporting local tradition is harder to counter by us atheists. We don't have clubs or churches, unlike big religion. I allowed my son and daughter to join the Cubs and Brownies, which at the time started their weekly proceedings with an enforced bout of head-bowing. Religion survives by existing as a not-so-benign tumour inextricably bonded to society. That is deliberate, and it wouldn't survive any other way. I can't be dishonest and sit here pretending that good things can't sometimes come from this, but there are plenty of bad things possible as well, intellectual stunting being one such. My children were exposed to religion but were never of it. They always knew that they could decide to have themselves christened when they grew up. It is an option that neither took up. Am I pleased? I don't give a damn. What adults do in that regard is their business, their right. Get it, Jack?

It doesn't make them Christians. They couldn't speak and ga goo isn't exactly informed consent.

Maybe not, but you made an awful lot of promises on their behalf.

Another local tradition is Morris dancing. Those who introduce their children to that tradition don't to my knowledge say their kids buy into ancient fertility and harvest assurance.

False analogy. Morris dancing is peripheral to society in a way that religion never is. No-one is going to excommunicate you, ostracise you or threaten you with hellfire if you give up morris dancing. There is no holy book or body of theology attached to morris dancing. You don't have to deny evidence in order to be a morris dancer. Practising morris dancing does not tie you to ancient fertility, etc. Maybe you need a slightly better analogy, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 06:26 AM

Amen, Jack.   It appears you have Mr. Shaw well pegged.    "less shrill" is a nice touch.

Isn't it good to know that Mr. Shaw, the soul of tolerance and good feeling, will no doubt just let the thread die now without any retort?

We should all try to emulate his calm even-handedness.

Well, it's a good job we don't all emulate your penchant for lashing out in your posts without adding a shred of substantive content.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 08:21 AM

Shaw I'm putting you in the intentionally rude column. But that is not news, four anyone that actually knows you.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 09:05 AM

Really, Jacko? Are you in charge of something around here none of us knows about?

The questions I put cannot be answered by people like you and Ron hurling snide comments back. Those are simply the mark of people who are afraid to face up to some awkward realities. You bring up your kids to believe in something for which there is no evidence, yet for which there is a whole lifestyle and intellectual frame of reference attached, then you should be ready, conscience clear, to answer those questions. Not to me. I don't give a damn if you can't, or won't, answer the questions, but, if you don't, or hedge around, conclusions about your integrity may well be drawn. The way we bring up and educate our children is far too important a matter for it to be absolutely no-one's business save mummy's and daddy's. One day those children will be running the planet. It's abundantly clear that people running the planet who are encumbered by religion have done a massive amount of damage.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 09:41 AM

"The questions I put cannot be answered by people like you and Ron hurling snide comments back."

The questions you put are insane unrealistic jabberings of a dyed in the wool brainwashed Dawkinsist. There are no realistic answers.

Relax. Millions of people are raising their kids with their own values. That is the way parenthood works. That is the way it will always work. Christians get to raise their kids with their values. Argumentative individual who think a glass of liquor is Heaven and a paper cut is Hell raise their kids with their values. All kids get "indoctrinated". They learn a lot more from what you do and say in life than what some preacher or some rude pop science author tells them.

Kids will find their own way, in this information rich society it is inevitable.

"Really, Jacko? Are you in charge of something around here none of us knows about? "

I did not say I was in charge or anything of the kind. I am sorry that I have upset you to the point of childish name calling and shrill hyperbole, again. Calm down. But realize that I asked the question of Stringsinger. You would not be so upset if you had not butted in.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 09:49 AM

I said near the beginning of this this thread that I thought that your behavior and Musket's reminded me of some of the behaviors described in the article. I am pleased to inform you that Steve in particular has confirmed this suspicion way beyond my expectations.

I also came to the conclusion that Dawkins is way too unscientific and way to rude to be a spokesperson for rational thought. I think that Dr. de Waal is much more reasonable and much less biased.

Please forgive me for all of the things I have said that may have given offense and please forgive me for not having the interpersonal skills to draw this to a close sooner.

God Bless you all and good fortune to all who think that was an empty gesture.

I don't have anything else to say on this topic.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 09:57 AM

Back in the Crusade business, the so-called moderate wing of Mudcat is intent on trashing the books of atheists who don't agree on ideas.

Instead of analyzing the books in a creative way, the detractors claim that their feelings are hurt and are victims instead of curtailing the judgments and invectives hurled out of a pseudo-self defense. There are no "insane unrealistic jabberings of a dyed in the wool brainwashed Dawkinsist". This is just another ad hominem to keep the discussion closed in some way by trashing those with which the pseudo-moderates don't agree.

This is by no means moderation but an attempt to smear others as part of the religious tradition of bullying.

Religious bullies

Sam Harris has written a book titled "The End of Faith" and "Letters To A Christian Nation"
Dan Dennett's recent book is called "Breaking the Spell".

I would strongly suggest that you read some of these books before casting aspersions on them. Then we would have something to really talk about. Also, read Dawkins' book(s)
as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 09:59 AM

The questions you put are insane unrealistic jabberings of a dyed in the wool brainwashed Dawkinsist. There are no realistic answers.

Because they are too awkward for you?

All kids get "indoctrinated".

Oh no you don't, old chap. There you go again with a back-door attempt to equate faith with non-faith. My kids were not indoctrinated in any way (which isn't to say I never made any mistakes in bringing 'em up). Indoctrination is the sole preserve of people who deal in unsupportable certainty. I'm perfectly prepared to accept that there is a way of being a religious family in which children are not indoctrinated. But there are plenty more who do indulge.

They learn a lot more from what you do and say in life than what some preacher or some rude pop science author tells them.

Indeed. And what you do may include herding them to church and sticking them in a faith school.

Kids will find their own way, in this information rich society it is inevitable.

But Jack. You and your ilk have been doing things the same way, bringing up your kids to not question the tenets of faith, for thousands of years. The information age has been with us for hardly more than a generation out of all that time. Good job the information age came along to let you off your moral hook then, eh? Just carry on the same old way and google will sort your kids out then! Phew, what a philosophy!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 10:43 AM

Delusion may sound harsh at the personal level but if it quacks..

The word describes things perfectly in the same way as faith. If things religion dictates actually existed you would have no need for faith, hence the delusion is an important facet.

If delusion is insulting, how do you deal with asking for forgiveness for sinning or feeling not worthy being as a virtue? The bollocks that clergy deal out at the altar sometimes make delusion sound a little tame.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 12:55 PM

Your questions make a lot of assumptions about what people do that are not necessarily true, and beyond that, you assume that their choices have the same meaning to them as they do to you.

The questions that you ask, in addition to being leading and prejudicial, have an inquisitorial tone, which causes one to smilingly reflect that you haven't really gotten over that Catholic upbringing.

Beyond that, your questions have very little to do with either the way I've brought up my kids, or what any of us believe.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 07:30 PM

Your questions make a lot of assumptions about what people do that are not necessarily true, and beyond that, you assume that their choices have the same meaning to them as they do to you.

If my assumptions are not true then it shouldn't be too difficult for you to tell me how. But you haven't. As for choices, we are not talking about grown-ups making choices for themselves. We are talking about them making choices for their children before those children are old enough to make the choices for themselves. Well, that's parenting for you, but in the particular areas we're talking about here the danger is that of making a choice for them predicated on a blend of accident of birth and denial of evidence. That sounds quite serious to me. As far as I was able, I wanted my children to know what was true and how they could learn to verify truth for themselves, not have some unsupportable doctrine poured over them. I don't doubt for one second that many people of faith make those choices with the best possible intentions, but in no way does that guarantee their rectitude.

The questions that you ask, in addition to being leading and prejudicial, have an inquisitorial tone, which causes one to smilingly reflect that you haven't really gotten over that Catholic upbringing.

You are misusing the word "prejudicial". Selecting random pejorative adjectives does you no credit. My questions were not an opinion poll or drafted for a referendum. They are intended to be challenging to the mindset typical of millions of believers who feel rather safe in their cocoons of church/society. I suggested that you honestly confront them. But I'm not bothered if you won't, or can't, really. And your tired and lazy reference to my upbringing, which was probably as benign as Catholicism comes, is just desperate. Not something that thinking people need to resort to. There isn't much thinking beyond the spleen of your whole post, though, is there?   

Beyond that, your questions have very little to do with either the way I've brought up my kids, or what any of us believe.

Which sounds like denial to me. I'd love you to prove me wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 08:35 PM

If you were to spell out the ideas that you have a problem with, identify the religions groups that hold them, and then show us how those ideas cause problems when they are taught to children, then we might have something to talk about. The fact that you haven't done that seems to me to be just plain laziness.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Sammy the Skeptic
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 09:37 PM

Ah, Dude, you said

My questions were not an opinion poll or drafted for a referendum. They are intended to be challenging to the mindset typical of millions of believers who feel rather safe in their cocoons of church/society.

If you think that you are challenging millions of believers when you post anything here, you better have yer doc check your meds.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 12:48 AM

Stim is there a way to send u a message?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 02:53 AM

You can contact me through Bruce.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 09:00 AM

Bearded bruce?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 09:40 AM

If you think that you are challenging millions of believers when you post anything here, you better have yer doc check your meds.

Indeed, but what you are challenging is the idea that these beliefs have any sort of objective currency and are somehow worthy of our respect. If people choose to believe that God favours them for believing in system of centuries old misanthropic horse-chocolate written by the loopy scribes of yore then that's their beeswax. Out here in the real world, the Earth turns on a godless axis and even the most militant Atheist must surely delight in the fact that we're all in this together, regardless of what lies & bullshit religion has been feeding us all these aeons.

Atheism is not a religion; it is the recognition of the objective, common reality we all share regardless. It is a lingering epiphany of liberation born of science, enquiry, and a true thirst for knowledge which ran us up such blind alleys centuries ago when we couldn't but look at a sunrise without ripping the guts out the nearest virgin by way of veneration. The religious find comfort in such blind alleys; they thrive in their foetid piss-reeking darkness, peering out in sanctimonious terror at the roaring highway of human progress in all its dynamic glory convinced that it's a highway to hell. Maybe it is at that; but there's no turning back...

(Please note: No offence at any single individual was intended during the composing of the above post. It was written in good humour in celebration of (as the poet said) the sheer sharp excellence we all of us share in simply being alive in the first place.)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Sstim
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 10:33 AM

Murdoch.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 04:19 PM

If you were to spell out the ideas that you have a problem with, identify the religions groups that hold them, and then show us how those ideas cause problems when they are taught to children, then we might have something to talk about. The fact that you haven't done that seems to me to be just plain laziness.

If I'm lazy then you can't read English. I have done what you said so many times I'm sick of saying it. You are not teaching "ideas" to children. You are actually not teaching them at all. You are force-feeding children with the dogma that there is a true God and your instruction to those children is full of unsupportable certainty. You do this from the cradle right through childhood and adolescence, a far longer apprenticeship that even the finest lawyer or surgeon has to undergo. The more benign among your number may give your kids the intellectual get-outs that the preacher or faith school don't provide, but that little "may" in that sentence represents a massive copout, a huge denial. We end up with billions of people who believe in a particular god they were told to believe in that is no more than an accident of their birth, a ludicrous and very damaging position. And they are the people who, generation after generation, are shaping our world. And it doesn't work very well. I've said why many times before and you have my posts there if you want to find out. I strongly suspect you don't really want to. If you don't, then there is little point talking to me. Do your own regurgitating. I have far better things to do. If I sound annoyed it's because I'm fed up with you pretending to be a champion dimwit.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 04:21 PM

If you think that you are challenging millions of believers when you post anything here, you better have yer doc check your meds.

What makes you think I think that? And thanks for the insult, whoever you are. Do have a nice day.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 04:42 PM

Steve, there are folks who are so indoctrinated that it may be impossible for them to think out of the box, so all they can do is react rather than respond rationally.

Blandiver, once more you've hit it out of the park! Your eloquence is like sweet music.

"Atheism is not a religion; it is the recognition of the objective, common reality we all share regardless."

I don't see how you can express it any more clearly than that.

There are militant everybodys and it's questionable that militancy on any subject can change anyone's mind.

Sometimes, militancy as in labor unions, is necessary when negotiations call for better working conditions. You might say Dr. King was militant when he lead the marches in Selma and beyond.

But I dispute the idea that Dawkins is militant. I find him reasonable, somewhat dispassionate except when it comes to Darwin and how the Creationists are attempting to destroy the scientific principle of evolution. Here, I applaud his militancy and it is not a religion but a critique of it. To talk about the "god delusion" is not especially militant but opening a conversation for those who can handle the subject without getting their backs up in reaction. Dawkins has had gentle debates and discussions with some of his friends who are vicars and religionists but at no time were the debates filled with invectives, hurt feelings,
insults and brickbats thrown like we've seen here.

If we use the term militant as a pejorative, then any writer who has something passionate to say could be labeled militant. The biblical Jesus was certainly militant and what could be more militant then the sadistic deity in the Old Testament?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 05:04 PM

If believers wish to resort to the cliche that those who disagree with them are militant, then I feel I might resort to a cliche meself, that they have something to feel incredibly insecure about. We should tell them that that is nothing better for giving you a solidly secure feeling than a dose of good, honest doubt.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 05:45 PM

I am a Catholic and yet I respect Richard Dawkins for his work as an evolutionary biologist. He does have strong views regarding religion (of all descriptions) and, while I respect his views, in this area I disagree with him. In the same way I have learnt to respect the views some of the posters on this and other, related, threads. I don't always find myself in sympathy with Steve Shaw but I have found most of his recent posts consistent and reasonable and Blandiver expresses his views with a forceful clarity without being in any way offensive. Musket has indicated he only wants to take the piss so we are excused from giving any consideration to his posts.
There is a problem with certain religionists, among whom I would include pfss. And that is their belief that every word of the Bible is true and beyond dispute which means that they believe in killing adulterers and others proscribed in books of the Old Testament such as Leviticus. Fundamentalists of this kind, whether Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist or whatever, take an indefensible set in stone view of society and believe that society cannot move on, develop and, dare I say, evolve. There are atheists who actively attempt to rubbish religious faith (some post on this forum). Some might describe them as fundamentalists too.
The odd thing is that I have some wonderful friends of different faiths and no faith. We occasionally indulge in discussion regarding belief (usually after drink has been taken) but we are able to recognise and respect our differences without rancour. In fact such exchanges are frequently invigorating.
Most people of faith recognise that their faith goes beyond reason and the Catholic schools that I have first hand experience of teach children to love all people as themselves and to do good. The Commandments are a reasonable guide to living a decent life (yeah, you can ignore the first one - and the one about the sabbath if you like). The truth is that most aspects of religion are benign. The fundamentalist nutters are as much a threat to me as they are to non-believers. Those who use religion as an excuse to do evil have nothing to do with positive faith.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Sammy the Skeptic
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 06:37 PM

You said if yourself. Do you ever read your own posts?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 07:45 PM

Sammy the wotsit, millions of believers are millions of believers. A mindset typical of millions of believers, on the other hand, is one thing. The titchy little word "A" at the start of that sentence, shall we say, is your f*cking great big clue, n'est-ce pas? I haven't the time or inclination to go around challenging millions of different people but I don't mind challenging a common point of view, a typical mindset. People here challenge some of us for being atheists. That's fine. I can stand up to that confidently. I don't accuse them of challenging millions of individual atheists. They are challenging the atheistic mindset, of which I possess a fairly typical example. I'm really sorry I couldn't find some shorter words to use to explain this rather mundane and obvious distinction to you. I type and review my posts fairly carefully and you'll have to forgive me if I respond sarcastically to people like you who don't have the skill, the stamina or the inclination to read them properly. For anyone left here scratching their heads in puzzlement, this little piece of one of my posts is what our Sammy here erroneously thinks he's pinned me down on:   

They [my questions] are intended to be challenging to the mindset typical of millions of believers who feel rather safe in their cocoons of church/society.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 08:23 PM

Any clue as to who you are, Guest? Your conciliatory post makes a very good contribution to the conversation.

The truth is that most aspects of religion are benign.

Well I agree with this, to a point. My own Catholic upbringing was relatively benign in many respects. My slide away from conformity met with less resistance than that of some of my friends. I should also confess that I taught for seven years at a Catholic school, I took religious assemblies there and I got married in the Catholic church. I even taught RE in my first two years. The received wisdom of some of our bitter non-atheists here is that I should look back bitterly on that lot as though it was all a massive tragedy. Well it wasn't. It was a stage in my personal evolution (with all that that implies about what I've turned into. Pause for sarcasm...?) However, it isn't as simple as that. First, millions of people on the planet do not get the same opportunity as I had to slip gently away from faith. The Catholic church, as far as I can see, is far from being the worst offender in this regard. To generalise about religion's benign side being pre-eminent is a generalisation way too far for my liking, in spite of there being a lot of truth in it. There are people on this forum who would vigorously defend the way Christianity is presented in the UK who are some of the worst Islamophobes I've ever experienced. Yet they are Christians only by accident of birth, as are those Muslims only Muslims by accident of birth they hate so much. The radar is always set to pick up inconsistencies of that kind. I know from working as a teacher in a predominantly Muslim area of London that youthful rebellion in some devout Muslim families is a very different kettle of fish to similar situations in Christian households. I don't much like the smell of copout that accompanies the defence of how faith is presented to children, considering how it subsequently holds so many of them in lifelong thrall. Finally, yes, the effects of religion can be benign, are possibly mostly benign, as you say. But those are generally positive aspects of life that exist anyway to which faith has simply hitched its wagon. You can, and do, have goodness, consideration, charity and love thy neighbour entirely without faith. Atheism doesn't do quite so well in getting that nice (and generally but not necessarily always benign) sense of community cohesion. We don't have churches and groupings and I feel a bit jealous of that. At the end of it all, we still have to decide whether telling children that myth is truth (lying to them) is, in principle, the right thing to do. The alternative path may look a little rocky, what without those hitched wagons, but perhaps it's a lot fairer to the kids in the long run.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 08:40 PM

To clear up a small matter, though we married in the Church we did not have our children christened. This would normally have been considered a breach of the promises we made at the wedding, but we were given special dispensation, before the wedding, to bring up our children as we saw fit by feisty "Bishop Victor", Victor Guazzelli, a big man of the East End at the time. He took a lot of persuading. He occasionally visited the school and he once railed to the staff against the menace of "militant ex-Catholics". His intemperate verbal assault raised my hackles considerably and got me thinking about whether I was in the right camp.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Sammy the Skeptic
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 11:49 PM

So you actually still went to Church when you were a grown-up? and you needed to get "dispensations" from a Bishop to educate your children the way you wanted? Whose the sucker here?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 10:15 AM

Yes I did, yes I did, and you probably are, because you're not a good listener (are you a militant atheist?). Next question.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 08:38 PM

Mr. Shaw may possibly want to peruse the thread entitled:    Religion/ Atheism and Impotence.

He need not worry--it won't take much time away from his lebenswichtige polemics;   he need only read the opening post.

Then he can return to favoring us with his unparalleled wisdom.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 09:53 PM

I'll possibly peruse what I want, thanks. I have something of a life left and I'm not going to keep "perusing" stupid threads started by sillybuggers.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 02:36 PM

I'm shocked, just shocked, to find out that Mr. Shaw does not in fact seem to be the sweet-tempered reasonable person I always thought him to be (one who, being only interested in truth, is not about to let his ego let him get dragged into petty quarrels and knows when there is no point to continuing a discussion.)   But-- at least 13 posts after I congratulated him on his calm even-handed manner?    Looks like I was wrong.   I'll certainly know better than to do that again.


   Another idol with feet of clay. It's hard to bear.

But somehow we'll struggle through.

And, at least, hats off to him for so neatly proving the thesis of the OP.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 03:11 PM

"The truth is that most aspects of religion are benign." Guest, if this were true there would be no controversy regarding it. Many aspects of it are toxic.

Steve apparently did get his back up a little but who on this topic has been totally reasonable and even-handed? It's not a human proclivity when reactions run high.

So Mr. Shaw is not Jesus? Well whaddaya' know. :)

Steve, there is a potential community out there that can hold non-beliefs without being a church. It's a revelation to ex-church going non-believers to find out that they are not necessarily isolated from one another.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,BrendanB
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 03:44 PM

That post from GUEST on 16 April was me, Sorry, I did not notice that my cookie had crumbled (again).

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: bobad
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 06:43 PM

Harvard atheists shocked at exclusion from Boston bombing memorial service

The Harvard Humanist Community was shocked Thursday when their members were, in the carefully-chosen words of New York Times best-selling author Greg M. Epstein, "blown off" and excluded from an inter-faith memorial ceremony for the victims of the Boston Marathon bombing.

"We have friends and family who are in the hospital in critical condition, who nearly died," he told Raw Story. "It wouldn't have been so difficult for those who organized the vigil today to make some kind of nod to us, and that's all we would have wanted."

The Harvard humanist chaplain and author of "Good Without God" explained that the exclusion of non-religious Bostonians was particularly shocking because someone dear to the Harvard Humanist Community was gravely wounded in the bombings.

Celeste Corcoran, who was caught in the blast with her daughter and subsequently lost both of her legs to amputation, was a volunteer for the Harvard Humanist Community, Epstein said. She was also something of an "aunt" to Sarah Chandonnet, the group's outreach and development manager and "second senior-most member," he added.

President Barack Obama personally addressed attendees at the service, which was held at the Cathedral of the Holy Cross in Boston. He was joined by Massachusetts Gov. Deval Patrick (D) and Boston Mayor Thomas Menino.

"We gave the White House an opportunity to exert a little more influence to help include us, and I'm disappointed that didn't happen," Epstein added. "We spoke to high ranking members of the governor's staff multiple times — people we know for a fact were involved in organizing the vigil — in fact we called them every hour on the hour. And when I say we, I don't mean me: I mean our lobbying office, the Secular Coalition for America."

"The point of today was inclusion," Epstein lamented. "All they had to do was say one word, or allow one official guest, and they didn't. I can't speak to their motivation. I hope that it was a matter of ignorance."

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 08:40 PM

Wow bobad that is very interesting, organized atheists with a chaplain no less asking to be included like any other group in the service.

I thought that Militant atheism may be like a religion, but in Boston it seems that even the non-militant ones have a structure similar to a church.

I am all for including atheists in such services. As long as the homilies (or the humanist equivalent if you don't like the analogy) and eulogies do not include Dawkinisms or similar confrontational statements.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 08:59 PM

I am all for including atheists in such services. As long as the homilies (or the humanist equivalent if you don't like the analogy) and eulogies do not include Dawkinisms or similar confrontational statements.

Ah, the clutcher at straws and control freak personified in two little sentences!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 09:08 PM

Perhaps you do not grasp the concept of going to a funeral and mocking 80% of the attendees.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 09:13 PM

Why would I do that?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 09:42 PM

No one is talking about you unless you have become a "humanist Chaplain" and not told us.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 05:13 AM

Nobody is 'mocking' anyone, Jack. Why such an emotive [& IMO a bit paranoid] word?

And whatever is a "Humanist chaplain" when he's at home? And what sort of organisation needs, and appoints, one? I mean, seriously ~~

What are his duties?
What does he do all day?
Who are his congregation, his 'flock'?
Does he wear his collar back-2-front?
Does he hold - what to call them, now? - meetings? services? assemblies?

I find the whole concept of such an individual, and such a post, mind-boggling.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,BrendanB
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 06:05 AM

'The truth is that most aspects of religion are benign'
I said that in an earlier post and I defend it because in my experience it has proved to be the case. I also pointed out that there are religious extremists, and, by extension, those who seek to use religion for their own obnoxious ends and I abhor that as much as any atheist.
Stringsinger insists that much of religion is toxic. I would argue that it is abuse of religion which is toxic. You have read Joe's posts regarding his faith, no reasonable person could describe his approach to life as toxic. In my experience there are a lot of Joes out there.
A further point is that I cannot rationalise my faith, it just is. Steve might and Stringsinger will argue that that is the result of indoctrination but I would have to counter that in my younger days I rejected my faith for several years and, to all intents and purposes, managed very well. As time went on I found that I was developing a different kind of belief. Not the unquestioning faith of a cradle Catholic but one which has to cope with doubt and uncertainty. One which requires me to engage my intellect and make decisions; one which, I believe, enhances rather than undermines my individuality.
As Steve points out, religion brings other benefits, such as community. As a musician this has been extremely beneficial to me as I play not only in my own local Catholic church but also in local C of E churches where I feel equally part of the community.
(This also gives me the opportunity to slip in the occasional Tex Mex waltz or French mazurka - a different kind of proselytizing!)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 07:31 AM

That's a good post. Though I would say that you can rationalise if you really want to. Aye, there's the rub. Faith (because of the tactics of organised religions with respect to children) has a habit of becoming very difficult, if not to question, to shake off entirely. A denial of that part of the intellect that really digs deep and really asks the critical questions (and demands evidence) is the upshot. Faith is both a comfort blanket (why would you want to shake it off?) and a strangling rope. It makes you not want to ask questions (the real questions). Well, life is fine out here in the atheistic sunlit uplands. It takes just one little extra jump to get there, that's all. No pressure!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,BrendanB
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 08:37 AM

Hohoho!
As I said, I was effectively an atheist for some years. I don't think that I rediscovered my faith, I came upon a more realistic and life-affirming approach to belief which is now an essential element in my life.
Sorry Steve, you ain't gonna get me!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 08:56 AM

So why did you decide that you needed a crutch? And I'm never out to get anybody, believe me.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 09:08 AM

>>
Nobody is 'mocking' anyone, Jack. Why such an emotive [& IMO a bit paranoid] word?<<

Watch Dawkins' TED talk. and watch the mocking.



>>And whatever is a "Humanist chaplain" << Read bobad's post a few before this one. The entirety of my knowledge of "Humanist chaplain" is there. Frankly, I think it seems like a good idea for weddings and funerals at least.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 09:16 AM

Sorry, Jack, I can find no explanation of the term, or exposition of the duties of, a Humanist Chaplain in Bobad's post. My question stands. We have registrars for weddings and funerals.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 09:49 AM

If you have read the thread you know as much as me. Atheists in Boston have a chaplain and the are miffed to be left out of the service.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 09:52 AM

google result

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: BrendanB
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 10:11 AM

'So why did you decide you needed a crutch?'

I didn't and don't. Faith can frequently be onerous and demanding but it is part of what I am - so it goes. My faith does not feel like a crutch but frequently causes me to examine my own inadequacies.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 10:42 AM

Thanks for that link, Jack. I thought it would turn out to be, in fact, a sort of counsellor. But I can't help finding the designation "Chaplain" a bit misplaced, as there is surely no Chapel involved? However, I suppose it might give some Humanist students the feeling that their advisory needs are regarded as on the same footing as everyone else's, and thus far I can see where they are coming from.

OTOH, not all atheists want to use the get-out title "Humanist" ~~ I don't. I am not a Humanist, I am an atheist. Now, if they were to appoint someone called the "Atheist Chaplain"....?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 10:48 AM

Yes, MtheGM, quibble over they titles of your clergy and tell me it is not like a religion. Already a schism! :-) (Joke Steve, It was a joke. )

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 11:26 AM

My faith does not feel like a crutch but frequently causes me to examine my own inadequacies.

So before you got your faith back you were unable to examine your inadequacies??

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,BrendanB
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 12:08 PM

No, not unable to but my faith encourages an examination of conscience, the need for which I wasn't so aware of in 'the wilderness years'.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 12:25 PM

Steve,

Why don't you take a breath and consider that not everyone has had experiences as bad as yours.

Religion is not a crutch to most people. It may be be for some.

It is very like whisky that way.

(note that my spell checker calls "whisky" a spelling error. But I left it that way just for you. )

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 06:27 PM

For your consideration, from the Website of the American Humanist Association, I offer: The Humanist Manifesto I am surprised that none of you, especially you, MtheGM, are familiar with the Humanists. I am told that, for a couple hundred years, the foremost British Meeting was in London, and called the South Place Ethical Society, and continue on to this day as the Conway Hall Ethical Society.

The American Humanist Association website offers this general overview of their ideas:

"Humanism is a progressive philosophy of life that, without theism and other supernatural beliefs, affirms our ability and responsibility to lead ethical lives of personal fulfillment that aspire to the greater good of humanity."

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 08:07 PM

I'm afraid I don't understand why you need faith in order to examine your conscience all the better, or, indeed, to do anything else "moral". Being a decent human being is a tough ask, yet I believe it is entirely possible, and desirable, to achieve it whilst standing on your own two feet (not on your own two knees). To admit that you need God/faith as a crutch in order for you to live a good life is just about the most abject admission of defeat I can think of. You are basically born good (as opposed to what Catholicism teaches you, you miserable, sinful wretch, born as you are already needing a "saviour"). You spring from your mother's womb a perfectly good and innocent person. Your life from then on is your fight to stay good, and it's a fight well fought if you do it on your own without phantom crutches. "I lived a good life and ended up virtuous because of my adherence to a God who never once spoke to me". Well, you have accepted the notion that you are born a wretch and can only be saved from wretchedness by your particular God. Dunno about you, but I'm a bit prouder than that, and I don't think I'm especially proud.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 02:14 AM

I am perfectly aware of Humanism, Stim. (I attended Peter Bellamy's memorial meeting, held at Conway Hall as it happened [not for humanistic reasons, but it is available for hire for such occasions & Jenny hired it]).

All I am saying is, the Humanists may or may not be regarded as a branch of atheism; but I am not one of them. The term 'Humanism' is in no way fully cognisant with 'atheism', as some appear, like you[?], to think; and I prefer to be an atheist tout simple, if it's all the same to you.

~M~

Nigel Spleencringe, if you are reading this, please regard it as a contradictory reply to your "I prefer Humanism" [i.e. as a designation for the non-belief position] on that other thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 02:18 AM

My word! You seem to know and care a lot more about it than me. All I knew before was that an evangelical friend catholic of mine when I was an atheist didn't like "secular humanists" but I had no idea that they were that organized.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 03:47 AM

Hang on..

A humanist chaplain is questioned on the basis of oxymoron. Ok. I can see an interesting debate there. But the term atheist seems to have crept in. Presumably on the basis that an assertion such as humanist is the same as a lack of assertion such as atheist on what basis? They both lack superstition?

The multi faith chaplaincy service at hospitals here in The UK also includes no faith. Someone to speak with, unload and receive comfort transcends belief in any flavour of faith. I've just joined a group set up to oversee certain improvement to local health care and invited someone from the chaplaincy team to join it. I somewhat doubt they feel their knowledge of either Bible or q'ran reflects their usefulness to our work. But their empathy and constant contact with patients in a non subjective or clinical decision making role is gold dust.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: BrendanB
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 05:26 AM

You are putting words into my mouth. I did not say that I needed faith in order to examine my conscience. I implied my faith caused me re-evaluate my life in a way that I had not previously deemed necessary.
When you say that you do not think that you are especially proud do you not think that others should judge that? There are those on this forum who might take a different view.
For a while I was enjoying this exchange but you have returned to your hectoring approach to discourse which I find unappealing, so thank you and goodbye.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 05:38 AM

Musket, Musket, Musket.....

HOLD ON THAR BABA LOUIE!!!!
HOLD ON!!!

"A humanist chaplain is questioned on the basis of oxymoron. Ok. I can see an interesting debate there. But the term atheist seems to have crept in. Presumably on the basis that an assertion such as humanist is the same as a lack of assertion such as atheist on what basis? They both lack superstition?"

You don't have to presume anything Musket. You can read the bloody thread.

Go back to Bobad's latest post and you will read that there is a group of organized Atheists in Boston that includes a Humanist Chaplin. If you want to debate (bicker) with them about their definitions or with the source of the article I am sure you can find them online.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 11:18 AM

Steve: I liked your 8:07p post a lot. Though it may sound a bit odd, I think that it is a profound act of faith to walk out of the church and close door behind you. And that faith is in your own conscience and your own ability to reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 04:33 PM

When you say that you do not think that you are especially proud do you not think that others should judge that? There are those on this forum who might take a different view.

When I say I don't think I'm especially proud, I'm hardly saying something about myself with puffed-out chest, am I? As for letting others judge, well I thought the good Lord (in one of his wisest-ever remarks) counselled us to judge not, lest...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 04:41 PM

Steve: I liked your 8:07p post a lot. Though it may sound a bit odd, I think that it is a profound act of faith to walk out of the church and close door behind you. And that faith is in your own conscience and your own ability to reason.

Thank you, but I didn't walk out as an act of faith. I walked out because I finally saw the need for evidence (I'm a simple chap, you know). My conscience (which generally serves me well enough, imperfect wretch that I am), is a free-flying affair, unattached to any faith or philosophy. Just the need to be a fine, upstanding chap who loves his friends and family, worries about all sorts of stuff and plays the harmonica to the best of his ability down the boozer of a Friday night. Of course, I usually fail abysmally on all counts, but one has to keep trying. God has yet to intervene.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 06:05 PM

Steve; My thought is that relying on one's own conscience and reason reflects faith in one's own judgement.   Authoritarian systems, whether they are religious, political, corporate or academic, generally demand that the individual value the groupthink over their own judgement. They tend to assure it by undermining the individual's "faith-in-self".

There are those, perhaps few in number, who define "God" as that little voice inside you that asks "Why?" when everyone and everything else seems to be telling you to sit down and shut up. This is metaphorical, of course. There is probably a genetic sequence that accouns for it...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 08:48 PM

Steve; My thought is that relying on one's own conscience and reason reflects faith in one's own judgement.

I sort of like that notion, though my faith in my own judgement is perpetually shaky. But that doesn't seem a bad way to be. It's the human way to be. People who have a bit too much faith in their own judgement, more than is healthy, have got us all into an unholy mess now and again. Best thing is to acknowledge one's imperfections and carry on. Without the crutch of a God works best for me. Your kilometrage may vary.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 09:46 PM

"my faith in my own judgement is perpetually shaky. But that doesn't seem a bad way to be. It's the human way to be." That's it, in a nutshell.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 06:52 PM

Only 9 more to 500

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 07:41 PM

Is that a good thing, Jack?;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 07:57 PM

Got this far. might as well go to 500

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 11:56 PM

"wrong to implant faith"


As Jack has pointed out, it is up to the parents to decide whether religious instruction is good for a child or not.    Believe it or not, it is not up to anybody else, not even Mr. Shaw and his fellow atheists, though they of course know what is best for everybody.

Sure is interesting.   Mr. Shaw et al. whine piteously about religious figures who tell others how they ought to live and what to believe.   But they generously share their firm conviction that religious instruction is child abuse and as such should not be allowed.    And they do so in their charming more-rational-than thou manner in a way just as unyielding as any fire-and-brimstone preacher.

If Mr. Shaw is looking for intolerance, he should look in the mirror. Maybe he'd recognize something--perhaps for the first time.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 02:43 AM

I do think that calling bringing kids up to identify with a particular variety of the many brands of the one-and-only true religion child abuse is probably a little emotive. But speaking from personal experience it is indoctrination and can it take much time and effort to shake it off - and it could be said that you never completely shake it off: I know plenty of atheists riddled with Catholic guilt, for instance. Having said that, we all indoctrinate our kids one way or another - for instance I'm indoctrinating mine to know right from wrong and to think for himself...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 05:31 AM

Nope, sorry, I'm sticking to this. I'm talking about lying to your children. Telling them that what is almost certainly untrue is the Big Truth. I'm not telling anyone whether they should be doing it or not. What I am saying is that honest people should see it for what it is. No-one is perfect when they're bringing up children. But there is a big difference between making human mistakes with them and deliberately misleading them. And it is deliberate (it's your choice) and it is misleading (telling them they don't need evidence). And it isn't just your business (those children go out one day into the bigger wider world). What the parents and teachers and religious leaders of the 9-11 killers told them was very much your business. Yep, a terrible example. But still an example. Those killers thought that myth was truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 05:40 AM

Mr. Shaw et al. whine piteously about religious figures who tell others how they ought to live and what to believe.   But they generously share their firm conviction that religious instruction is child abuse and as such should not be allowed

I've never said that religious instruction "should not be allowed". I state my opinion on what I think of it. Read what you like into what I type but I do express myself clearly. And I have not said those things. And you have the nerve to accuse me of intolerance. Go into the "very silly" column with Jacko, pete and Guffers.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 08:33 AM

Mr. Shaw et al. whine piteously about religious figures who tell others how they ought to live and what to believe.   But they generously share their firm conviction that religious instruction is child abuse and as such should be allowed ?? at least according to Shaw? Why? Because his principles don't extend any further than whining on the Mudcat? If it is not about anything in the real world, other than the chance for Shaw to insult and try to bully, what is the point?

What do the words "child abuse" mean in this situation? Are they just another stone he can smugly throw like "delusion." Is anyone else besides me beginning to see that Mr. Shaw has no moral grounding in these discussions?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 08:53 AM

My moral grounding is nothing if not consistent, thanks. It would pay you not to question that in an individual you don't know. Otherwise it's your moral grounding that's in question, not mine. Cheers.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 09:20 AM

Ahhhhh!!!! 500!!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 09:22 AM

"in these discussions."

I said

"in these discussions."

A lack of moral grounding and reading skills

Poor reading skills as well?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 10:42 AM

So teaching religion is "brainwashing" kids but not "child abuse".

Thank, you, Mr. Hairsplitter.

We're still waiting for your admission that it is up to the parents---and nobody else --to determine what sort of religious education--if any--a child receives.

As Joe and others have pointed out, there are lots of religious people who are willing to let others live their lives without imposing any religious requirements on them.   You, on the other hand, seem champing at the bit to stop all religious instruction---including of that of children of religious people.

Now who is the intolerant one, presuming to tell others how they should live?

Have you looked in the mirror lately?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 10:50 AM

"You, on the other hand, seem champing at the bit to stop all religious instruction"

That's what it seemed like didn't it. But his most recent statements indicate to me that it is probable that Mr Shaw was simply repeating Dawkins' memes without realizing the implications of his statements. That is a very common with using dogma without thinking it through.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 03:39 PM

My God! I've just come down below the line for the first time. I'd absolutely no idea that many people gave a shit about religion!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 07:57 PM

So teaching religion is "brainwashing" kids but not "child abuse".

Perhaps you'd care to tell us what you think the difference is so that we'll know what you're talking about. I don't recall trying to make that distinction, as you're obviously implying.

We're still waiting for your admission that it is up to the parents---and nobody else --to determine what sort of religious education--if any--a child receives.

I've never said anything different. Parents bring up their kids in whatever way they like and I'm not going to argue with that right, but there is a conversation to be had if there is room for opinion on whether some aspects of that upbringing may be damaging. You wouldn't expect most people to shut up about female genital mutilation, for example, seen by some as an appropriate part of bringing up kids. That's physical abuse. There is more than a suspicion that force-feeding dogma about an almost certainly non-existent God might just be a form of mental abuse if executed in a particular, authoritarian manner (one trademark of big religion, unfortunately). Religious indoctrination has a severe effect on the world. Boston may yet appear to be a recent example. It might just be everyone's business occasionally. So you don't get the right to keep us quiet about it. But no-one I know has ever suggested banning parents from bringing up kids in religious faiths, me especially, but that doesn't mean I can't try to provoke them into thinking about it.

As Joe and others have pointed out, there are lots of religious people who are willing to let others live their lives without imposing any religious requirements on them.

This does not apply to anyone who forces children to go to church, to sing hymns, to bow their heads in prayer or to make them go to faith schools. You don't get to make millions of children your convenient exception to your cosy live-and-let-live doctrine. I'm not saying don't let them live their lives, etc., but I am saying I have an opinion and well we do believe in free speech still, don't we.

You, on the other hand, seem champing at the bit to stop all religious instruction---including of that of children of religious people.

Never said it, never will.

The trouble is, Ron, you skim over a lot of posts from a lot of people, can't really remember the details but are far too lazy to go back and look, get a vague picture in your head of someone you think you disagree with and end up saying ridiculously inaccurate things. Yep, you're right down there with wacko, pete and Goofus all right.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 10:32 PM

>>I've never said anything different.<<

But more importantly You haven't said it until now.


>> Parents bring up their kids in whatever way they like and I'm not going to argue with that right,<<

You have condemned people for doing so.


>>
but there is a conversation to be had if there is room for opinion on whether some aspects of that upbringing may be damaging. You wouldn't expect most people to shut up about female genital mutilation, for example, seen by some as an appropriate part of bringing up kids. <<

So now sending you kid to Sunday School is on a par with female genital mutilation? What DID those priests do to you to make your emotions scream in your head at you like that? What sends a man into such a state of surreal madness?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans reality check
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 02:22 AM

I suppose when the medieval scholars claimed to be translating ancient stories and slipped in the line "suffer the children, " they weren't being ironic.

There are many people who as adults decided it was all bollocks yet as children were made to comply with weekly worship etc. Even as a brain washing idea it fails. Or at least the Christian flavour seems to. Many find it harder to opt out of some cults, Islam being an example because it is more likely to be shunned by your family whilst people with Christian parents only have to consider if their parents feel let down. Either way it is unnecessary.

If either of my children started smiling too often and wearing sandals I would at least have the comfort of knowing and supporting their open choice rather than thinking I was responsible. I hope I taught them the garden is wonderful without having to refer to fairies at the bottom of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 03:30 AM

On your side, Musket, as you know. But, semantically now ~~ 'suffer' as used by Jesus had nothing to do with 'making them suffer', it just meant 'allow' in C17 English: "Suffer little children to come unto me and forbid them not" [Luke 18.16] simply means, "Let the children come & listen to me and don't prevent them".

Retained that meaning right up to Jane Austen at least; Miss Bates in Emma, who has fallen on hard times but retains her dignity, thinking that Mr Perry the apothecary might not charge for attending her niece Jane, says "That cannot be suffered, you know. Mr Perry has a wife and children to support and is not to be giving away his time."

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 04:19 AM

Only in the Blather Mather Dictionary of Conscience Free Lies does suffer mean to cause another to suffer.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Musket
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 04:45 AM

I suppose if I were a Christian, I would never misinterpret or use biblical justification for my deeds out of context....

Translations of ramblings of translations.. (A quote by the way from a Victorian Archbishop of Canterbury.) Funnily enough, I do know what you are supposed to take it to mean, in the same way as explaining to young colleagues about the proof of the pudding... However, people take things to mean what it suits them to mean.

Especially when invoking scripture to make your point.

But not, it would seem, when mistaking irony....

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 04:51 AM

Ah! The famous, "if Christians have ever jumped off a bridge then Blather can too" defense.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 05:22 AM

""So now sending you kid to Sunday School is on a par with female genital mutilation? What DID those priests do to you to make your emotions scream in your head at you like that? What sends a man into such a state of surreal madness?""

Don't be an ass Jack.

He isn't equating them in terms of severity. He is making the point that they are each rituals considered necessary in their respective religions, and asking you where you draw the line in what parents should do to their children in the name of faith.

Taking another, pehaps more apposite example, do you think it is right to allow a child to die rather than permit a blood transfusion?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Musket
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 05:31 AM

Luckily, we have laws to prevent that. You make a good point Don. UK law assumes children cannot give informed consent in such matters and loco parentis prevails. Where children do have capacity, they can consent but anything where they will be harmed through omission, parents, legal guardians under The Childrens Act etc would be held to account for harming them. (The Health and Social Care Act 2008 (Regulated Activities Regulations 2010))

UK law recognises that children are not capable of understanding the consequences of faith in the real world. Civilisation seems to agree that there are no such things as religious children.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 05:49 AM

Don't be a berk Don, of course he is equating the two. Haven't you been following what he is saying?   He is retreating from his long held position that Christian education is child abuse and "a grievous wrong" to use a Dawkins phrase and tossing out the "female genital mutilation" bomb to cover his tracks.

female genital mutilation is a grievous wrong.

Sunday school is not.


There is the line. That is the difference. Equating the two is the kind of seed that Dawkins places in damaged minds.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Musket
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 06:57 AM

Quick! Make sure you don't get paranoid!!! Get your bible out and start praying in case that Anti Christ zoology practitioner starts infecting your mind!!!!!!!!!!

"female genital mutilation is a grievous wrong.

Sunday school is not."

From your viewpoint. From the viewpoint of many cultures, it may be the other way around. Either way, it is using religion as a convenient cover for inflicting control on minors. Children can flourish without the lies and guilt you know. Many do.

I get it. Atheism is like other religions to you. It needs pushing away so your Christian vision is the prevailing one. You appear capable of throwing together sentences with words of more than two syllables. How did it screw your mind so much that you can defend goodness as being coupled with religion whilst dismissing other religion as savage?   I have news for you. Lack of religion is neither one nor the other.

It is reason. It is enjoying life for what you see now, not what was promised in the next impossible stage by those wishing to control you. It is life without the hang up, guilt or bastardisation of the word sin.

A fecking men.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 07:02 AM

Sin
a : an offense against religious or moral law.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Musket
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 07:17 AM

You may have posted in the correct thread this time, but it is still irrelevant.

Mind you, let's play pedantic shall we? You use the word OR. Wherever you got that from is recognising that superstition does not have the monopoly on the word "moral."

Also, where I am sitting and indeed where you are sitting, there is no religious law. No such thing, as law requires compliance and you haven't been fined for not attending church here since Cromwell.

Oh, and its offence. I'll accept offensive, but the noun is with a c. There's a good chap.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 07:31 AM

Wacko, if I 'd really wanted to equate the two I would have said "one is as bad as the other" or words to that effect. But I didn't. Thanks to Don for the Jehovah's Witnesses example. I hadn't thought of that, and I suppose it has a bit more punch. The point I was making, which everyone bar Jack is seeing, is that a number of things are done in the name of religion that I don't accept are beyond the need for us to talk about, whether we're inside religion or not. Nearly every boy born into a practising Jewish family will be circumcised. I could have used the more emotive term "mutilated", which is accurate, but I didn't. I think that's worth talking about in terms of that child's human rights possibly being violated. I think the same applies to female genital mutilation, which is far worse in every regard I can think of. That's OK to say, I think. I can't equate physical abuse of these kinds with potential mental abuse in terms of severity and I haven't tried to. But I can equate them in terms of potential violation of a child's human rights. A child is not less human because it's a child and I don't think we should regard its rights as being on hold until it's no longer a child. I'm saying I don't think it's right for a parent to decide which rights they can apply to their child and which they can sideline. I think a child has a human right not to be misled by adults, to be told to believe that myth is truth and that if you demur there are sanctions ranging from ostracism to hellfire. I accept that there are non-authoritarian ways of putting that stuff to your kids that will make them think (and give them the opportunity to reject) instead of stopping them from thinking, but I'm not into giving religions a blanket copout clause. Therefore I think it's legitimate to talk about it and not simply allow religion to cosily hide it away in the false guise of "letting parents decide what's best for their kids".

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Musket
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 07:47 AM

"Equating the two is the kind of seed that Dawkins places in damaged minds."

Mmmm... Ever wondered why religion reps spend time with the sick and the needy? Why they speak of providing sanctuary? Saving fallen women etc.

I was at a christening last year and the mother was a teenager, and is raising her baby as a single mum. The insensitive vicar, despite this being a private service, got one of her usher people to get up and give a speech, aimed at the mother, about how she was "fallen" and had "sinned" but Jesus came into her life and all is well now. Distressing, wrong and when I (gently) pointed out to her afterwards that is was not subtle, never mind unasked for, the vicar said she would pray for my soul.

I don't know what all the fuss was about women vicars, with the exception of Dawn French, they seem as bad as the male lot....

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 09:19 AM

Yeah. I was at a funeral of a friend of mine a couple of years ago. The vicar (his wife was Christian so she organised a Christian funeral - hmmm, that default thing again...) declared that he'd led such a good life (which he had) because of his Christian background. Well he hadn't been near a church for forty or more years except when he'd been dragged there unwillingly for weddings and funerals. He'd led a lovely yet Godless life, shock horror, vicar!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 09:22 AM

One of the priests at my secondary school came up with a definition of sin that's always stuck with me, the very opposite of the moralising tosh about breaking rules that Jack came out with: sin is a loss of love. I still like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 09:37 AM

"Wacko, if I 'd really wanted to equate the two I would have said "one is as bad as the other" or words to that effect"


Steve if you had up to this point shown any intention to communicate with your words, I might believe you.

I don't. You were not trying to make a point. You were trying to change the subject. This thread was started because I recognized a little bit of you and Musket in de Waals observations of Atheist dogmatists. You have proven that point far far beyond what I could have imagined at the time. You are all tactics and no thought. When the lack of thought behind your dogma is demonstrated you bring up more dogma. You (as a group) have repeated tried to prod me into defending everything from the Crusades to practices in east Africa that have a lot more to do with ancient superstitions (I mean the actual word rather than the Dawkins definition) than religion. (Try finding if a man's penis touches a clit it will burn like fire in any Abrahamic text.)   Just because some religious person committed some atrocity somewhere else does not mean your neighbors are not a hell of a lot more qualified than you and Dawkins to decide how to raise their kids.   

You are an atheist dogmatist. Period.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 09:51 AM

I haven't got a tactical bone in my body. I just type what I think. I don't have to worry about being tactical because you never say anything I need to get tactical about. Other people of faith, on the other hand, are far more challenging and reasonable than you are. You merely appear to think we're all out to persecute poor old Jacko.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 09:54 AM

Have a nice day Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Musket
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 10:19 AM

Defending the absurd takes tactics. Pointing out absurdity takes reason.

You can't recognise anything I say in anyone else's articles in the tactical sense because all the comments and observations I make are just that. Comments and observations. I have no position to defend nor hobby to push.

I merely point out that lack of belief is not a belief. If some say it is, then that is similar to you being religious and so were crusaders, human sacrifice merchants etc. Just because some idiot calls himself an atheist chaplain or whatever, doesn't mean that rational people with no need for a comfort blanket defend atheist chaplains.

You just don't get it. You like to push the dogma you follow but the minute you have to get defensive, you start name calling, quote trawling and seeing how far out of context you can get in order to say that your branch of delusion has any relevance outside of your own mind. If I were so unsure of my faith, I'd find another faith, presuming I felt my mind needed one.

I'd pm Goofus if I were you. He likes to think he is a shrink, (there, using an American term just for you.)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 10:23 AM

Yawn.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 10:31 AM

Obama Moves Lacto-Socialist thread
From: Jack the Sailor - PM
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 10:04 AM

Jackbooted Kenyan Neo-Colonial thugs have tried to move this important news from the public eye.

Be vigilant! Important news must be spread!



Subject: BS: Obama wants to Socialize Lactation
From: Jack the Sailor - PM
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 04:29 AM

In an unprecedented big government plan his plan is to issue breast pumps, to all lactating women collect the milk in predetermined holding facilities then redistribute the natural bounty to any citizen who has an NRA sticker on their car.

"I'm gonna milk those mothers for what they got and give those crybabies what they deserve." He was quoted as saying.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Sammy
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 11:18 AM

The fact that somebody like Musket has any role in providing health services for other human beings is a bit disturbing, even for skeptics.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Musket
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 11:46 AM

Musket doesn't provide health services.

What he does do is respond to the stupid assertion that there is such a thing as militant atheism and not believing in fairies at the bottom of the garden means you support this presumed movement.

What that has to do with health services, I have no idea. Mind you, there is nobody "like Musket." If there was, I would pay them royalties. Sailor Boy keeps complaining that I am just taking the piss, largely on the basis that I am just taking the piss.

I do however find your post disturbing. Do you have a role in mugging old ladies perchance? Or gross indecency in public parks? (Dogging I believe it is called.)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 12:24 PM

It is a little disconcerting Sam, especially when he acts like he is two different people.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans sailor seaman
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 02:39 PM

That's two people. Not one person with an imaginary friend. It is disconcerting but Musket doesn't drive to Birmingham most days interfering with healthcare.

Neither does he insult people for lacking delusion then argue rational people must worship an old bloke in Oxfordshire.

He takes the piss. Chiefly because without it, some fairly outrageous comments would go unchecked and superstition would retain the respect it demands and doesn't deserve.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 03:15 PM

Musket is Ian Mather's Chongo then eh?

Heaven forbid that things are said on the Mudcat that don't conform to Ian Mather's idea of what is right and all the angels that can dance on a pin cannot protect the heretic from the wrath of Ian Mather's imaginary friend.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 04:51 PM

Hey, Wacko Jacko. You appear to like spouting other people's real full names when you feel got at by 'em. What your real full name, eh, Wacko? Come on now, lad. I feel got at too and I want to use your real full name, don't you see? Jack V. Lad? Jack O'Alltrades? Jack B. Nimble? Jack Sh*t? But worry not, me old sea dog. We don't mind if you carry on slagging off real names while you hide behind cowardly anonymity. It don't half cast us in a good light next to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 05:08 PM

Why, Steve: it must be Jolly Jack Tar.

What else?!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 05:09 PM

& while on the subject, what shall we do with...?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 07:55 PM

Dammit no, Michael. I will not sully the associations of a lovely hornpipe with thoughts of an intemperate and clearly troubled nitwit hereabouts...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 08:13 AM

They are finally sussing you out Jerk the Sailor!!!.

Check it out!!! Now, Apart from his usuall quasi socialistic ramblings and his smug and patronising posts, he appears to have learnt to use the cut and paste function on his computor.Well open my paint box and tickle me pretty pink!!

Fess up Barnacle clems.. you arent really an salt stained academic is you?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 09:06 AM

That's it Steve, push down that bile! Cherish it. Wallow in it! Feed it. Maybe one day it will grow into a cute little tumor in a sailors cap. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 10:26 AM

Heheh. Said without a trace of irony, Wacko, me old salt!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 10:30 AM

They are playing my song!!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Musket
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 02:12 PM

I suppose the best thing about admitting you are taking the piss is that you don't have to think twice before posting. Judging by Sailor Boy's comments, any post that doesn't resonate with his view of the world is everything he is accusing me of.

No, you silly sailor. I have not got a simian nom de plume. I haven't got an alternative reality either. I do have a name that whether I like it or not, is judged in public arena based on careful judgement and opinion. I used to use my name on mudcat till a journalist asked if that was me.

I suppose as Musket, in the same way as you being Jack the Sailor, it is easier through the quasi anonymous chat room style of this site to let go, stretch and perhaps not be quite as diplomatic as you have to be normally. Suffering fools gladly can be frustrating, but is a trait necessary at times. There are never those times at Mudcat. If you or anybody else says something daft, I can laugh and call you a dozy bugger. Likewise, you can to me. If I think you or anybody else is being outrageous, I can say so and reply in kind.

So... I have always been curious by the well documented view that there is a concerted effort amongst Christians to get back to the high position the church had in Western society many years ago, taking on tactics such as claiming persecution and claiming lack of religion is an organised effort to replace religion with a secular form of religion, in the soviet sense.

So when I see you riding up to the stereotype, I saw an excellent opportunity to test it.

You know what? I reckon there is something in it because you are pure text book and Olddude is reducing his own credibility by joining in. That's sad.

I love the crap you send back, and shaking my head with a smile is light relief. Just lay off the dragging the day name into it eh? That is reserved for music and reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 02:47 PM

Ian Mather tell me please what incentive there is for anyone on this forum to protect your persona of Musket, when you repeatedly tell us that is its sole purpose is so that you can protect yourself from the consequences of verbally abusing us?

If Musket cares one whit about the reputation of Ian Mather. He had best end his quixotic quest or keep a more civil tongue. If you want to continue to abuse people, keep switching names as Krinkle does or find a more covert way to protect your identity. Continuing as you are with your English pals occasionally and consistently calling you "Ian" or "Mather" is no protection at all. If either you or Musket think that any journalist worth their salt could not put you two together you really need a reality check.

Here are the terms and conditions of the Mudcat.com.

"Anonymity and Guest Posting are permitted.

You are free to be anything you want EXCEPT unkind, impolite, argumentative, snooty, or either FOR or AGAINST that of-what-we-do-not-speak.

Be aware of what personal information you decide to share within the forum. It is public. Unlike Facebook, there is NO PRIVACY at all.

We care about your safety but we are not in the business of protecting you. Your kind and civil behavior is your best protection."

Does it say anything about protecting personae specifically created to be unkind and uncivil? What should your expectations be about having your unkindness and incivility protected?

This is not the friendly little sandbox you wish it to be. I know that from hard experience. Max has warned you. I have warned you. Heed the warnings.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 07:16 PM

So what's your real name, Jacko? I think you should put up or shut up about others'. Coward.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans Ian
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 03:15 AM

Ok.

Ian Mather thinks Jack the Sailor is a prize prick. Ian Mather is of the opinion that the coward behind Jack the sailor is unsavory and shouldn't be left in the room with children.

Happy now?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 05:52 AM

Jack the Sailor, is sorry that the man who demands that his "secret" be kept even though he regularly spills it himself has a low opinion of Jack the Sailor.

JtS is shocked! Just shocked! that Ian Musket is calling Jack the Sailor names. But JtS is not concerned because, according to Musket, everything Musket says is just "taking the piss." Ho ho ho. It is all in good fun! Musket is simply teaching JtS a lesson in manners right?

The person behind Jack the Sailor is not monumentally stupid enough to lie to a journalist about his real name then to make up an even ruder less rational, morally bankrupt character easily associated with that name. Is Ian Mather?

For reasons listed above person behind Jack the Sailor is unconcerned about what "Musket" or "Mather" thinks about him. Speaking of being in a room with children Jack the Sailor hopes for the sake of Ian & Musket that at least one of them has learned something about the consequences of childish behavior online, especially taking for granted that someone will aid and abet their duplicity after being abused by him for three weeks. But I doubt it. If I were a betting man, I would bet that Ian Mather is arrogant enough to get himself in a scandal over this and probably will be fired for this.

It won't be Jack the Sailor's doing. It will be Ian Mather's. Ian Mather can stop lying and protect himself whenever he wants. Maybe Ian Mather wishes to heed Max's advice.

"We care about your safety but we are not in the business of protecting you. Your kind and civil behavior is your best protection."

Maybe he does not.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 10:39 AM

crumbs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans truth
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 12:29 PM

Here's a competition. The first person to show where I have lied anywhere at any time either on these threads or where I have said have ever lied gets a cool £1, 000, 000.00.

Just to help. I have never said god exists or that lack of religion means anti religion. I have never lied about being religious in order to get an education for my children nor told journalists lies.

If Jack the sailor says I am a liar that's ok though because most other things he says are absurd waffle borne of ignorance and stupidity so why would anyone believe I have ever told lies just because the discredited old fool says so?

Any chance of an apology?

Thought not.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 12:43 PM

Nice try sunshine. Why should I take your word for any of that?   According to "Musket." Musket just takes the piss.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans sailor seaman
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 02:27 PM

My money appears safe. I'd hate to sell the jet skis.

Taking the piss and lying aren't the same thing. Religious leaders can differentiate. They'd have problems raising funds and indoctrinating children otherwise.

Taking the piss out of busted flushes such as you isn't really fun any more. Lying has never been needed because basically I don't lie. You see, you don't need an imaginary friend to be one of the good guys but you need an excuse such as religion to justify otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 02:35 PM

Musket sans self control.

"Taking the piss out of busted flushes such as you isn't really fun any more."

Yet you continue to make the attempt.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans sailor seaman
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 02:55 PM

Well..

Apologise for calling me a liar and who knows?

I was fascinated by watching the documentary where the BBC reporter had enough with the religious spokesman who tried wearing him down and then called him a liar.

Whilst I am not angry like the BBC bloke was with the scientology spokesman, Salty Jack has moved on to that level.

Why stop now? can't wait to see what you try next.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,concerend
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 05:19 PM

Now now Dears, put your toys back in your collective prams and play bonny
Remeber you are growm ups now, at least some of you are with the usual exception of Roger The Cabin boy.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 10:57 AM

"You wouldn't expect people to shut up about female genital mutilation...".


So sorry to hear about your strange type of palsy which forces you to type things you don't believe in.      You never meant to imply that religious instruction had anything in common with genital mutilation.    That's why you brought it up.   Of course it is.

Sure is interesting that some colonials know more about the English lanugage than supposedly highly educated intellectuals from the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 11:21 AM

"language"

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 02:03 PM

A third post to explain your first would be useful. Or possibly not. Chunes are calling.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 10:25 PM

Interesting that you now choose to deny---rather unconvincingly, since the evidence is on the thread quite recently-- that you brought up genital mutilation in the same context as religious instruction.

Since I'm full of the milk of human kindness, however ( and modest besides, as you know), I will take the most charitable interpretation of your "genital mutilation" remark---that you do not understand how propaganda works.    Fortunately I am ready to remedy this gap in your education--who knows what others there may be?--and give you a short primer.   We in the US, perhaps in contrast to you who live in the paradise called the UK, have had recent- (hard to believe it was 10 years ago)-- occasion to deal with propaganda.   

We were told "Before September 11, many in the world believed Saddam Hussein could be contained".    This clearly seeks to establish in the mind of the listener or reader a link between Saddam and 11 September.   

Similarly, your comment on "female genital mutilation" seeks to establish in the mind of the reader a parallel between religious instruction and genital mutilation.    The only other interpretations are the "palsy" thesis and the proposition that the writer (your good self) was so mindless as to not realize the link he was proposing. So since I have of course the utmost respect for your intelligence, the only reasonable explanation for this otherwise amazingly stupid remark is your unfortunate ignorance of the workings of propaganda.

Don't worry; you need not thank me. Happy to be of service in addressing this flaw in your education.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Apr 13 - 05:24 AM

""Interesting that you now choose to deny---rather unconvincingly, since the evidence is on the thread quite recently-- that you brought up genital mutilation in the same context as religious instruction.""

Explain to me exactly where he was wrong in bringing up the subject of female genital mutilation.

It is an integral part of the religious beliefs of at least a significant number of Muslims.

Just as my example of Jehovah Witnesses believing that blood transfusions must be refused, even when that means the death of a child, is an integral part of their religious beliefs.

There are a number of areas in Christian religious belief which are qualitatively analogous to those practises, though obviously not as severe.

So, answer me this. Are the religious beliefs of non Christians less acceptable to you than those of the Christian Faith?

If so, does that not make you a bigot and a hypocrite to boot?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Apr 13 - 07:17 AM

Female genital mutilation is cultural practice which happens to be practiced by some Muslims and some Animists and others within a geographic area around the red sea.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans sailor seaman
Date: 27 Apr 13 - 08:03 AM

The major issue we have with the practice in The UK is with Nigerian migrants too. It is s Christian ritual there. A surgeon friend who came from there goes back to spend free time in a clinic in Lagos repairing botched operations and a nurse here in The UK was struck off last month (BBC has the story) and got her referrals from her church.

Not good enough to be bigoted about other religions. They are all religions and to dismiss them is to dismiss your own. If you permit, you promote.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,JtS
Date: 27 Apr 13 - 09:26 AM

So if people who claim to be Christians do bad things that predate Christ or Moses for that matter, which this does, you still blame the practice on Christianity?

LOL

Are you sure you are in a position to cast stones about bigotry?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,concerendi
Date: 27 Apr 13 - 10:35 AM

i see jerk the sailor is claiming knowledge of the red sea..I woild bet the nearest he has been to the red sea is when he cut his finger on his palstic duck in the bath..deny it if you dare you nautical fraud

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 27 Apr 13 - 10:48 AM

If it is in the name of Christianity then Christianity has a problem.   I don't see The Archbishop of Canterbury disowning the African bishops advocating death for being gay.

To permit is to promote.

To say mutilation of children is a feature of Islam but not Christianity is rather disgusting. If you had said it is not a feature of religion would be a start to helping stop the credibility of such practice.

To permit is to promote.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Apr 13 - 10:53 AM

So, just out of curiosity, and feedback, as atheists, how would you view a President who would 'side' with Christianity, or Islam?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Apr 13 - 05:09 PM

I made it perfectly clear in a follow-up post that I do not consider female genital mutilation to be equivalent to anything other than female genital mutilation. Ron is trolling. God knows what the nature of the bee in his bonnet is.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Apr 13 - 05:41 PM

" Ron is trolling. "

Looks like he has a Musket fish on his line.

But you are of the hook. We all know that you brought up Female genital mutilation to change the subject when you were losing an argument. You implied that it had to do with religion but Ron got you to back down.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Apr 13 - 06:38 PM

Ron doesn't get me to do anything except get annoyed with Ron, Jacko. Ron doesn't read posts. Ron gets a vague idea in his head that he hates you and lashes out. What he says bears no relevance at all with what one has posted. I wouldn't mind if it did, 'cos then I'd at least have a chance at having a go back at him. Jack, be well advised: your enemy's enemy is not necessarily your friend. Be careful who you throw your lot in with. Ron is a prize lightweight tosser who has never contributed a single valid point to this forum, ever. His mindless interventions are about as useful as a fart in a spacesuit. Still, Jacko, you know best. We don't mind who you sign up to. It don't make you look too good, though. Some of us are a bit more discriminating, but don't let us stop you.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Apr 13 - 06:54 PM

I've known Ron, on this forum a very long time. We've locked horns a time or two.

"Ron doesn't read posts. Ron gets a vague idea in his head that he hates you and lashes out. What he says bears no relevance at all with what one has posted. I wouldn't mind if it did, 'cos then I'd at least have a chance at having a go back at him. "

I think pretty much the same of you. But Ron has a large advantage over you. He remembers the positions he has taken in his own posts. Not that I particularly blame you. It is clear that your goal is to harass rather than enlighten, so why bother to communicate?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 28 Apr 13 - 12:37 AM

So, just out of curiosity, and feedback, as atheists, how would you view a President who would 'side' with Christianity, or Islam?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans body
Date: 28 Apr 13 - 02:45 AM

Ok Goofus. I would as a person, (I do nothing as an atheist) view a President as someone who became a President through people voting for them. You need to throw a few baubles at the voters.

Alistair Campbell who was Tony Blair's press secretary famously said that "we don't do God. " Tony Blair is very religious and once he left office converted to Catholicism. He had no issue however with the statement about the role of 10 Downing St in society.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Apr 13 - 10:06 PM

"a vague position"..."lashing out".    Uh, not exactly.   So sorry if you don't like being quoted directly--which is exactly what I have done.    In a discussion which in large part centered on teaching of Christianity to children, you brought up genital mutllation--which has precisely no bearing on the topic--except in a very twisted mind.

If you don't appreciate being quoted directly, there is one revolutionary idea I could suggest to you:    start thinking before you hit "send" .

It seems a reasonable notion--perhaps you might try it.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 29 Apr 13 - 07:32 AM

"mutilation"

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Apr 13 - 05:38 AM

""In a discussion which in large part centered on teaching of Christianity to children, you brought up genital mutllation--which has precisely no bearing on the topic--except in a very twisted mind.""

1. Only in JtS' paranoid mind did this discussion centre on Christianity. Everybody else was talking about organised religion in general terms, and discussing the merits (or otherwise) of imposing myths as truth on human beings too young to exercise informed choices.

2. Genital mutilation is one example of a religiously inspired abuse of the children so mutilated, and before you question the topicality or the religious aspect of it, can you deny that cirumcision of Jewish boys is a requirement of that religion?

3. Perhaps you would like to answer the following question, which is definitely germane to the topic.

Do you think it is right that the children of Jehovah Witnesses and others with the same beliefs should, according to their parents, be allowed to die rather than receive a life saving blood transfusion?

In the UK, the state has to step in and order treatment to be given, which decision is strenuously opposed by the parents.

Do you think that it is reasonable for parents to impose their religious beliefs on a child, even to the point of death?

If not (and I do hope not), where do you draw the line?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Apr 13 - 05:47 AM

Just to expand a little in explanation of my last question.

Where should the line be drawn between a parent's right to decide for a child, and the rights of the child itself?

1. At the point of death?
2. At the point of serious physical damage?
3. At the point of minor physical harm?
4. At the point of serious psychological harm?
5. At the point of minor psychological disturbance?

6. At the point where the potential for any of the above exists?

WHERE?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 30 Apr 13 - 01:30 PM

One hopes that you are not naive enough to assume that organized religion are not the only ones that impose myths on children.

In fact, secular ideas, like, "The police are your friends", or "We have achieved a just and lasting peace",that pizza and coke or fish and chips are in any way healthy meals, or the concept of "Must See TV" seem much more dangerous and pervasive that that "Jesus Love You", or that you should try to keep the "Ten Commandments".

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans sin
Date: 30 Apr 13 - 01:31 PM

As Don rightly points out. Here in The UK we have laws to protect children from the obscene aspects of religion. It is a pity that the vast good people with faith are let down by their leaders who consistently fail to disown barbaric practices in their name.

Popes who actively covered up child abuse. Archbishop of Canterbury who consistently refused to disown Ugandan bishops who supported and encouraged the idea of death sentence for gay people. Mullahs who go quiet when their congregation is consistently suspected as being in league, wrongly, with those who use Islam as a tool for domination.

If I were prone to organised superstition I would be asking those I gave my money and time to what they are doing to be relevant to today's society.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,The Other Mr. Abernathy
Date: 30 Apr 13 - 02:54 PM

They don't listen to you much at home, do they, Musket? Too much telly, The Daily Mail, video games, or whatever. No such thing as "Master of the House" anymore. A disgrace. Well, sad, anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans sin
Date: 30 Apr 13 - 05:52 PM

Err. Yeah. I think.

A pint of what he's on please Landlord.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 May 13 - 09:45 AM

""One hopes that you are not naive enough to assume that organized religion are not the only ones that impose myths on children.""

Working through your double negative to what you actually meant to say, religions are the only ones making a way of life based on myths.

And just how, in any case, would the fact that there are others doing wrong absolve religions from responsibility?

That is pure playground nonsense!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 01 May 13 - 03:51 PM

Forget it Don, You win. Everything bad is the fault of religion. Nobody else needs to accept any responsibility for anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans reality check
Date: 02 May 13 - 01:18 AM

Two observations there.

If you are rational you take responsibility for your actions rather than wonder why your imaginary friend is testing you.

If you ascribe everything to your God, your God is at fault on your behalf.

Convenient eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 May 13 - 08:35 AM

""Forget it Don, You win. Everything bad is the fault of religion. Nobody else needs to accept any responsibility for anything.""

Nicely twisted Stim, but as you well know, not what I said.

The religious on this thread are trying hard, though unsuccessfully, to claim the moral high ground, but failing that to denigrate the non religious. I'm not an Atheist and I don't much care for the word, which is being used here as a pejorative, particularly by the woolly minded lunatic fringe.

My point is that nobody can claim that the misdeeds of another justify his own.

So far the only people trying to do so are the so-called faithful, who apparently lose sight of "The Golden Rule" whenever they interact with a non believer.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 02 May 13 - 04:31 PM

In my humble opinion I think most of you have far to much time on your hands.

Or you all have several screws loose.

I have never read so much self opiniated claptrap in all me years.

"Wooly minded" is to gentle a word

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 03 May 13 - 11:24 AM

I think "concerened" has it nailed.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 04 May 13 - 10:02 AM

To set the record straight a bit:

Jack was the only one centering on teaching of Christianity"?    Nice fancy footwork, but no cigar. The target of the illustrious Mr. Shaw was primarily Christianity--as anyone who reads the entire thread can see. And he was the one who made the link to genital mutilation.   

I wonder if our stalwart atheists have any idea how foolish they sound.   

Perhaps they have not even noticed that their intrepid captain, Mr. Shaw, has jumped overboard and is no longer defending the untenable position he asserted.   While the rest (often from the UK, which I don't think is exactly in the grip of a Christian Taliban) have insisted on nailing their colors to a ship sinking before they boarded, and on fighting to the death (attacking religion) as the ship continues to submerge.

Your ship is not only sunk but has quite a few barnacles growing on it.

Your attitude reminds me of those dear dead days of yore when Teribus of blessed memory repeated for about 500 posts that the GWB administration did not carry out a propaganda campaign to convince the US public to back the Iraq war they had planned.

Your position is just as sensible as his was. (Or that of the sainted Rev. Falwell). And no more. Skepticm makes eminent sense.   Atheism makes as much sense as fundamentalism.

Just as surely as any fundamentalist preacher, you have spiritualized your hysteria.

But I'll have to say it is such a comfort to know that the US is not the only nation graced with half-baked zealots.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 04 May 13 - 10:05 AM

"Skepticism"

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans reality check
Date: 04 May 13 - 01:41 PM

Well done Ron Davies.

Prat. Your post above just demonstrates what people who don't do superstition have to put up with by word twisting logic choppers such as you and your first mate at sea.

First of all you indicate that if you feel you have evolved beyond mind controlling comfort blankets you have to be labelled atheist. Then you point out that it must be an assertion. Then you pick holes in your straw man. Then... then you have the nerve to say skeptic would be a better position.

Considering Steve Shaw, rational mudcatters and I have got fed up with pointing out the difference between not believing all that nonsense and claiming to be an atheist, you throw our collection of views back at us saying this would be better than the position you feel we all have.

Just because you may have a delusion, don't think normal people are as shallow.

Not believing in superstition is just that. It doesn't mean being an atheist. That is a sniggering term of contempt used by people who believe in God to describe normal people.

Even the diety you all put up as some imaginary leader, Dawkins, is on record as saying atheism by definition means you know there is no god. He just points out it is highly unlikely. ..

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 05 May 13 - 03:26 AM

blah. .blah. ..blah. .blahtiddy blah..come on people you must have had a life sometime?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 May 13 - 04:07 AM

""blah. .blah. ..blah. .blahtiddy blah..come on people you must have had a life sometime?""

You've been injecting these inane comments for some time without once adding anything that is germane to the topic.

Who needs to get a life?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans Ian
Date: 05 May 13 - 04:24 AM

To be honest Don, I think I need to get one.

In order to make a simple point I find I have to be insulting. I suppose the frustration of the sanctimonious effort by some in society to see lack of religion as a threat to their lifestyle. .. The nurse who failed in her attempt to be allowed to introduce Jesus to vulnerable sick people when allowed in their home on professional grounds or the commercial business that refused a couple to stay overnight in their guest house. When courts and professional regulators cried foul, they called it religious persecution.

You know what? I'm going to buy a few 4x2 timbers and some nails. Sod it. Let's see what religiosity persecution really means.

Apologies to those who quietly enjoy and are at ease with their faith. I feel the same when I see football hooliganism and there's me, a football fan.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 06 May 13 - 07:06 PM

Just checking in.

"Prat".    Temper, temper, little man.


To return to the program:

As I've said before, atheism deserves the same amount of respect as fundamentalism. And no more.

To anyone who can think and read (perhaps that excludes the esteemed Mr. Mather, Slingshot, or whatever he cares to call himself these days-- and his sidekicks)   the reason should be obvious:    both pretend to more certainty, in the same field of inquiry, than is justified. Atheists come to their own unshakeable conclusions, just as fundamentalists do.   Neither attitude is reasonable.

Fundamentalism and atheism are flip sides of the same coin.

As I've noted, skepticism on religion is more than justified;   atheism is, to put it mildly, less so. Maybe that's why people who rely on thought and reason and have not spiritualized hysteria--- Bill D for example-- call themselves skeptics rather than atheists.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 May 13 - 07:49 PM

Perhaps they have not even noticed that their intrepid captain, Mr. Shaw, has jumped overboard and is no longer defending the untenable position he asserted.

"Mr Shaw" has been in hospital undergoing major surgery, as it happens, and this is the first time he's switched on his laptop for over a week. "Mr Shaw" is not noted for jumping overboard.

And, Wacko, Ron doesn't read posts. The fact that you claim to have had a long association with him does absolutely nothing in my eyes to enhance the stature of either of you. I write good, clear English, and I've already, in good, clear English, tidied up the matter I raised with respect to female genital mutilation (not that I should have had to, but you know how these toothless wolves like to pounce). But Vexatious Ron wishes I hadn't done that. Vexatious Ron wishes I'd stuck to what he sees (wrongly, of course, but we are talking about Vexatious Ron here, aren't we?) as my prejudiced position. I'm sorry to have disappointed him so. The refutation of his silly position (and yours too, by association), is clear for all to see way up this thread somewhere. I refer you to same. I typed, you hunt. Me no parrot.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 07 May 13 - 11:27 AM

"Ron doesn't read posts".    Of course not.   Just enough to quote you accurately.    Seems you still haven't learned to think before posting. Pity.

But welcome back. Sorry you had medical problems.   I prayed for you.   Hope you don't mind.

But, Captain Shaw, I had thought you were perhaps putting out fires elsewhere (look it up).

The other members of your brigade have missed you, as of course have I.

And let me say I appreciate that you at least have the courage to stand behind your posts with your full name (first and last, at least--or perhaps you prefer Christian name and surname). Perhaps you can put some backbone into the other members of your team so they can do the same.




And now perhaps you or they can explain why atheism does not require more certainty on the question of religion than does skepticism.   Since, contrary to the dictionary, it appears that is what you believe. We can start there.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans Ian
Date: 07 May 13 - 12:38 PM

Ok. Once more.

Atheism is a word. It is widely understood to mean person who has no need for religion, no interest in forming or joining a group delusion and rather than pontificate on the meaning of life, reads and forms judgement on facts and evidence based theories. Alternatively means not interested in the question in the first place. Far too many real affairs to worry about without indulging in fantasy. After all, soap opera replaced religion as the keep the masses quiet fodder years ago.

It is also a term widely used to denote people who see no good in encouraging organisations called religions interfering with society insofar as rational people become affected by their influence and dogma.

The two loose definitions could describe the same people in individual circumstances but the former is not necessarily the latter.

Those involved in organised religion may not like the idea of more rational people deriding and dismissing their Creed and hobby so some develop a persecution complex in order to say that not believing in an imaginary friend threatens the lifestyle of those that do.

Quite.

Smokeless fuel, electricity and gas threatened chimney sweeps but the advancement in technology didn't chuffing well persecute them. Just made them less relevant and less needed for those of us who weren't chimney sweeps.

Pray for me. Not that it makes one jot of a difference to either of us.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: BrendanB
Date: 07 May 13 - 02:53 PM

Part of the Oxford English Dictionary definition of the word 'atheism' is 'the belief that there is no God'. It is true that that is not the sole definition but it is entirely valid to use the word in that way. If I understand Ron Davies correctly his point is that, given that definition, the belief in the non-existence of God is as much an act of faith as belief in the existence of God. None of this proves anything and the fact that I have posted to this thread is indicative that I have far too much time on my hands.
I hope you return to robust health very quickly Steve. I am glad the surgery went well.

Farewell to this thread and all who insist on keeping it alive, my only question is, why? (Don't answer that, I won't respond.)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans reality check
Date: 07 May 13 - 03:34 PM

Why? Why not?

I agree that there is a definition around believing or assuming there is no God. I think this is somewhat simplistic. Knowing there is no god is the same as knowing there is one. A position without evidence.

However, not believing in a prescribed deity such as an old man who had his child killed for us and bringing flood etc is not the same as not believing in any reason for existing. I assume the frustration of those who are fairly confident that 2000 year old documents are no more than fairy stories get upset when confronted with"if you don't succumb to a prescribed delusion you are saying you know there is no god.

I could be wrong but I don't think a single person on this or similar threads has claimed they know there is no god. However, plenty have asserted there is one. ..

Hence the word delusion entering into the debate.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: John P
Date: 07 May 13 - 04:32 PM

Part of the Oxford English Dictionary definition of the word 'atheism' is 'the belief that there is no God'.

Sorry, but this does nothing except display our society's penchant for assuming that belief in god is the normal default position.

Why is it so hard for people to understand? Atheism is the LACK of belief. 'The belief that there is no God' is an oxymoron, and, at this point in the conversation, an offensive one.

I don't have a belief in god. I don't have a belief in not-God. I don't have beliefs in this sense at all. I am very comfortable stating that there is without doubt no God, at least not as defined by most major religions. I don't give a rat's ass about proper scientific ways of putting things. I'm not a scientist and I don't need to talk like one. Since there is exactly no evidence for God, and a vast amount of evidence for not-God, I have to conclude that there is no God. This is not a belief. It is a conclusion based on the evidence. Please, please, please, stop it with your "atheism is a belief system" bullshit. It's rude, egotistical, and reveals you as someone who can't think coherently. Give it up.

Don't you understand that this is part of why so many people don't have any patience with Christians? Is being a jerk supposed to make other people think the better of your religion?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 May 13 - 06:34 PM

Thing is, John, there is a certain type of believer who can only see, bitterly, those not of their persuasion in a negative equivalent state to their positive belief. Equal and opposite. They are making two errors. First, as you articulate so well, atheists do not "not believe". Belief, at worst, is blind faith. A conviction based on no evidence, or, worse, which flies in the face of evidence. Belief in God qualifies on both counts. Of course, there is a meritorious kind of belief, which balances real evidence and comes down on one side more than the other. I believe that the Earth is around four billion years old. Most of the evidence I've seen supports that notion and there is little evidence against, though there are gaps in knowledge still to fill. I can rationally say that I believe the Earth is four billion years old, or thereabouts. I can't rationally say that God exists. I can rationally say that there is no evidence that gets anything like nearly over the bar that supports his existence. In fact, all the evidence I've ever seen for God isn't actually evidence at all. It doesn't pass the rationality test as evidence. There is always an impossible chasm to leap before it adds up to this, this, therefore this. Actually, we call it a leap of faith. Atheists don't care much for leaps of faith. We see a wonderful world out there capable of being explained in terms of the delicious commonplace, one that holds to the rules. Religious belief is a worldwide irritant that diverts intelligent people away from reality and continually threatens the peace. Douglas Adams said "Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?" and I agree with him.

Their second error is that they forget that it's their belief that created us in the first place. Atheists are all their fault. We did nothing. We kept calm and carried on.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 May 13 - 06:15 AM

Being a believer in some greater presence (call it a Deity for convenience), though completely non religious in the normally acepted sense of the word, I still find myself more in accord with those who are being stereotyped as "Atheists".

I can for instance accept that there is more evidence for their point of view than for mine.

What I don't see is evidence of any "faith" or "belief system" in their point of view. As has been said above, they have drawn a conclusion based on the evidence they observe around them.

They do not ask others to share their conclusion and they only interact with the "faithful" when provoked by the kind of nonsense which has been thrown at them in this thread.

Both the "Atheists" and people like myself seem to be considered a threat by some of those of a religious bent, who cannot resist trying to pigeonhole us into a stereotype to which they can justifiably feel superior.

The bad news is that we think for ourselves, rather than follow the doctrine and dogma, and we don't give a damn whether they like it or not.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: John P
Date: 08 May 13 - 09:57 AM

Both the "Atheists" and people like myself seem to be considered a threat by some of those of a religious bent, who cannot resist trying to pigeonhole us into a stereotype to which they can justifiably feel superior.

I've been wondering if the believers' desire to believe that atheists "believe" in the same way that believers do is due to the believers believing somewhere deep inside that their world view is not part of an evidence-based reality. In order to make themselves feel better about being irrational in this way, they want to believe that the rational people around them are as guilty as they of believing. It feels sometimes like they are apologizing for their belief by accusing others of sharing it. This is, of course, a very general statement and worth about the same as any other general statement when it comes to describing any individual.

Being a believer in some greater presence (call it a Deity for convenience)

What I'd like to discuss with both Christians and agnostics is what each individual actually believes and why. It's hard to have a conversation about god when the word can be defined in so many different ways. I myself am aware that there is a greater force that informs the universe and which can be experienced by human beings in a mystical/spiritual/religious way. I would never call this force a deity, since 'deity' implies, for me, consciousness, personality, ability to be communicated with, and active participation in the lives of humans. For many (most?) people who use the word, it also implies the ability and willingness to perform miracles that break the laws of physics. What I don't know is if you feel those same implications when you use the word 'deity'. Discussion without definition is bound to be fraught with misunderstanding. I also used the words 'mystical', 'spiritual', and 'religious' above. Does anyone know what I mean when I use them in that context?

Theoretical discussions, in some ways, can't bring us any closer to understanding each other or ourselves; as I noted earlier, they rarely provide an accurate description of any individual. Maybe we could start with the belief that the Bible presents literal facts and work out from there. From the non-believer standpoint, that would have to be the default assumption if someone says they are a Christian. I know, of course, that most Christians don't have any such belief (at least not the Christians I'm acquainted with), but I don't know where anyone draws their lines unless they tell me.

Anyone want to get real? What do you believe?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 08 May 13 - 01:36 PM

wishing you a speedy recovery steve.
as to the rest of your post ,- it consists of the usual unsupported assertions.what is this overwelming evidence that you imply ,if not assert affirms your no-God position.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans sin
Date: 08 May 13 - 02:15 PM

Im sure Steve might answer this as you posed the question to him.

But for me, there is a body of evidence to suggest the Bible talk of people being raised from the dead is physically impossible. Feeding umpteen people with little food cannot be done. Tablets of stone written by a human invention, floods and plagues caused by conscious intervention. Wrong.

So. The evidence suggests the Bible is fantasy. No problem with that. There are plenty of people who are intelligent enough to use such stories as a moral guide without being simple souls who actually belive it as literal. But there is the evidence. The Bible with its miracles, the q'ran with its flying carpets and heavenly noodles from more recent cults.

The evidence suggests they cannot be true.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 May 13 - 02:21 PM

""(call it a Deity for convenience)""

I called it that because it's the only thing you can call it if you don't want the whole weight of the religiosos coming down on you like a ton of you know what.

I have previously used the word "entity" with precisely that response.

As I can only guess at what it is that my gut instinct tells me is there, it isn't possible to define it.

But I do know that it isn't what the black frock brigade would have me believe.

I don't ask them to espouse my take on the subject. Why do they feel the need to convert me to theirs?

Is their belief so weak that my (and others') lack of belief threatens them in some way?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 May 13 - 03:04 PM

But for me, there is a body of evidence to suggest the Bible talk of people being raised from the dead is physically impossible. Feeding umpteen people with little food cannot be done. Tablets of stone written by a human invention, floods and plagues caused by conscious intervention. Wrong.

So. The evidence suggests the Bible is fantasy.

That's right. But fantasy's fine as long as you don't start to think it's reality. Fantasy is one of the spices of life. For me, evidence has got to have more balls than "somebody says so". We don't know that the theory of evolution is true because Darwin said so. We know it's true because he gave us real evidence to chew over, things we can go out and find for ourselves (I do it every day) and everything that's been explored in that particular field since Darwin has confirmed the theory. We are supposed to think the Bible's true because someone says so. Because whoever wrote it said so and whoever tell it us from pulpits says so. This in spite of the Bible being full of inconsistencies and somewhat dodgy omissions (the gospels of Mary and Thomas, anyone?). We are supposed to believe the intimate details of the life of Jesus, including hundreds of his precisely-recorded sayings, written by men who not only never met him but who lived a hundred years after him. But that's divine inspiration, and we're supposed to believe that that's possible, because religious people say so. We are supposed to believe in Lourdes and Fatima because some small girls made unsubstantiated claims (it's always peasants on hillsides somehow). We are supposed to believe that certain persons have had various visions and speak with God's authority, just because they say, uncheckably, they've had visions. We are supposed to believe that God is all-merciful and can be prayed to because bishops and priests and Mother Teresa say so (in spite of the fact that they don't know any more about these things than anyone else does). We are supposed to have our belief reinforced by beautiful cathedrals, works of art and sublime religious music, but they are all made by clever human beings and have nothing to do with belief. We are supposed to be overawed by ceremony and tradition into believing even more strongly, yet ceremony and traditions are no more than human inventions (and there have been some pretty foul ones down the line of human history). Above all, these say-so people tell us it's wrong to not believe, and that you must mistrust atheists and people not of your belief system by accident of birth. Because they say so. Well, I want evidence, not people telling me to believe stuff because they say so.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 08 May 13 - 03:54 PM

Erm......Don, I have as much right as you to express an opinion on this thread as you have .

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 08 May 13 - 04:13 PM

inane..come on Don ...... lighten up a bit.. what is the rest of the shite on this thread about?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 08 May 13 - 04:21 PM

Germane..? Don......? read the last two posts.

Please, Please, please, please, pretty pink please.. tell me you are not up your own ass like that smug, no mark, fraudulent mariner.... Jerk the sailior

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,corcerened
Date: 08 May 13 - 04:31 PM

...................or maybe you are?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 08 May 13 - 05:12 PM

?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 May 13 - 05:49 AM

""Erm......Don, I have as much right as you to express an opinion on this thread as you have .""

I couldn't agree more!

So is there any chance that you might stop slagging off everybody else and post one?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 May 13 - 05:51 AM

On topic would be good, rather than personal comment about other posters.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: John P
Date: 09 May 13 - 10:18 AM

Comprehensible would be good, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 09 May 13 - 12:22 PM

Aint that what I have been doing on all me posts..expressing an opinion? mebe not as in depth as you beige pseudo intellectuals..But hey.. the subject matter is a bit emotive and contrevershul aint it.?

At the end of hte day you all are only quoting stuff what you have read in books, not an original thought in all your collective so called brains.

When you get some constructive critism you start slagging me off, or like old barnacle balls, the fake smug mariner, kick all their toys out the pram an say they are gonna ignore me.Any more of this self indulgent behavioure and I will leave the thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: TheSnail
Date: 09 May 13 - 12:42 PM

Steve Shaw
We don't know that the theory of evolution is true because Darwin said so. We know it's true because he gave us real evidence to chew over, things we can go out and find for ourselves (I do it every day) and everything that's been explored in that particular field since Darwin has confirmed the theory.

This approach to science is called Logical Positivism.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 May 13 - 01:15 PM

""mebe not as in depth as you beige pseudo intellectuals..But hey.. the subject matter is a bit emotive and contrevershul aint it.?

At the end of hte day you all are only quoting stuff what you have read in books, not an original thought in all your collective so called brains.""

And that is what you fondly imagine to be:

1. On topic... i.e. bearing some relationship to the subject under discussion.

2. Constructive... i.e. of some value or interest to the participants in the discussion.

Five miles wide of the target on both counts.

""Any more of this self indulgent behavioure and I will leave the thread.""

Since you are still posting self indulgent tripe, that would seem to be a good idea. Goodbye!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: BrendanB
Date: 09 May 13 - 02:31 PM

There now, you fed it and it puked up all over the thread again. Don, it's a troll. Leave it to rot.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 May 13 - 04:01 PM

Whatever made me think you'd turn up just there, Snail? So predictable.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: TheSnail
Date: 09 May 13 - 05:35 PM

Just trying to be helpful. Briefly, Logical Positivism is the idea that scientific statements should be verifiable by empirical means i,e, they can be proved to be true by the evidence. That is pretty much your position isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 09 May 13 - 06:18 PM

logical positism? so i invite steve to demonstrate the evidence for his aint no god position and all we get is more assertions that darwinism is an established fact.IMO that very assertion is in question and since steve is next to definite that God does not exist the onus is on him to demonsrate the evidence [ i am not arguing about the bible at this stage of this challenge,musket]
as yet there is no improvement on position that anything created and designed must have a maker and designer,and as yet there is no evidence for chemical evolution.we can of course argue the identity of said maker but God would be a good start.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 May 13 - 08:28 PM

logical positism? so i invite steve to demonstrate the evidence for his aint no god position and all we get is more assertions that darwinism is an established fact.IMO that very assertion is in question and since steve is next to definite that God does not exist the onus is on him to demonsrate the evidence [ i am not arguing about the bible at this stage of this challenge,musket]

I don't need to produce evidence for the probability that God does not exist because your assertion that he does exist has as much credibility as the assertion that Saturn's atmosphere is populated by seven-legged blue fellows with two willies each (actually, that's more likely than God, but do let's move on). Boringly, here's the point in a nutshell. Nature is beautiful, complex and diverse. We understand, more or less, the laws that govern it (we're closing in fast on the ones that still puzzle us). We can use the theory of natural selection and all the laws of physics to explain life and the universe. It's all very elegant, very wonderful, and very ordinary, and it works. Fabulous, I'd say. But you come along and interpose God. Now nature is complex enough, and for all we know nature exists on billions of other planets in the universe. Yet you think you can explain all that diversity and complexity with a God who breaks every rule of the universe, who has defied time in order to exist for infinity, and, in view of the complexity of life here and probably in billions of other places, must be infinitely more complex himself. Not only that, you appear to not be able to explain how the fellow came about in the first place. You are, in effect, trying to explain the already complex with the utterly inexplicable. Your explanation ratio is so pathetic that you end up with something far more inexplicable than the stuff he's supposed to explain. It wouldn't be half so bad if the fellow had ever shown his face, but, apart from a desert-dweller who lived two thousand years ago and about whom we have only the words of men who lived a hundred years after him, we are still waiting.

As for "Darwinism" being an established fact, it's more than that. It's a great truth, supported by a huge body of evidence. Don't get me started on evidence, pete. Let's just say that chaps telling you stuff from pulpits, people claiming to have had visions, dodgy translations of dodgy, ancient texts (carefully selected so as not to include "gospels" that don't suit the tale), traditions and "theology" simply don't pass the evidence test.

Finally, perhaps you'd care to expand on what you mean by "chemical evolution".

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: TheSnail
Date: 09 May 13 - 09:27 PM

Steve Shaw
It's a great truth, supported by a huge body of evidence.

Yep. Logical Positivism with a touch of religiosity. From the link I gave earlier -

By the late 1970s, its ideas were so generally recognized to be seriously defective that one of its own main proponents, A. J. Ayer, could say in an interview: "I suppose the most important [defect]...was that nearly all of it was false."

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 10 May 13 - 01:14 AM

Any one thought off using a crystal ball or throwing bones on the floor? About as muvj use as this self opiniated garbage anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans reality check
Date: 10 May 13 - 04:52 AM

Out of interest, isn't posting on forums a way of demonstrating being self opinionated? If an opinion coincides with one other person's then that could be coincidence. If it resonates with a number of people it could be a good opinion but if it is a mass opinion based on doctrine then..

Its delusion.

pete. I have no issue with designating the reason if there is one, the term god. My issue is giving form and function to the term. Especially when convenient to push an increasingly discredited hypothesis such as intelligent design or age of planet.

Again. There is nothing wrong in rejecting a philosophy on the basis of lack of evidence without having to state you support another. There is a stance that would say the answers aren't being supplied by any hypothesis just yet.   

Or put another way, if Allah appeared tomorrow, religious non Muslims would be having more difficulty coming to terms with it than heathen buggers like me. After all, if the evidence is compelling. ..

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 10 May 13 - 05:24 AM

seems to me steve that you are continuing be evasive and very wordy without saying anything new. just the same old assertions.your previous post which i challenged took [it seems to me] a strong position that the evidence supports a no-god stance.
i am saying that a creator is a logical position for the existence of life,matter and energy and all its complexity and wonder.
you however have nothing to explain how it all began .claiming that science is closing in on the answers is just an appeal to the hope of the atheist.
once again we get the where did God come from tactic,when you know that the biblical teaching is that he is eternal and is spirit,and so not complex in terms of his being.
so bring forth your evidence for Gods non existence,or maybe retreat to a position that admits that there is just not enough evidence to satisfy you!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 May 13 - 06:23 AM

Perhaps Snail would articulate (oxymoronic allusion there, but to proceed...) where there is any hint of "religiosity" in anything I say. Not the just the religiose bits, but his definition of religiosity would be useful as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 May 13 - 06:41 AM

seems to me steve that you are continuing be evasive and very wordy without saying anything new. just the same old assertions.your previous post which i challenged took [it seems to me] a strong position that the evidence supports a no-god stance.

I have stated the case. I mean, what more can one do?

i am saying that a creator is a logical position for the existence of life,matter and energy and all its complexity and wonder.

Logical? I think not. I can't think of anything more illogical that inserting a vastly-improbable being, who no-one has ever seen or heard from, in order to explain what can already be largely explained by everyday laws of physics. Straying from pure logic for a minute (and putting myself in danger, therefore, of invading your comfort zone), I'd also say that your "explanation" is cumbersome and awkward, whereas mine is beautiful and elegant.

you however have nothing to explain how it all began

Neither have you. Inventing spurious "explanations" does not, in my book, come under the heading of "having something to explain how it all began" (I supppose your "it" conveniently excludes God...)

once again we get the where did God come from tactic,

This is not a tactic. It's a straightforward question which has been justifiably asked by millions of eight-year-olds the world over. Yet not one of even the greatest theological thinkers can answer it. You don't get off the hook by claiming that a child's innocent question is some kind of underhand tactic!

when you know that the biblical teaching is that he is eternal and is spirit,and so not complex in terms of his being.

Non-sequitur par excellence, amigo.

so bring forth your evidence for Gods non existence,or maybe retreat to a position that admits that there is just not enough evidence to satisfy you!

Nah, you lot started it. You provide the evidence to support your assertion. I'm just here letting your religious stuff wash over me. Unfortunately, I seem to be covered in vaseline, so none of it sinks in.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: John P
Date: 11 May 13 - 12:52 AM

Steve, what's that definition of insanity again?
Proverbs 26:4

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 11 May 13 - 04:29 AM

"everyday laws of physics" steve? despite ploughing through an admittedly difficult article on wiki about chemical evolution it was apparent to me that despite numerous models, pasteurs confidence in his work finally discounting abiogenesis remains well founded.maybe you can do better steve?
and while you are about it demonstrate the needed increase in information supposedly arising from mutations.last i heard loss and reshuffling are about the sum of it. maybe you can do better than dawkins who was stumped by the question,eventually only giving an evasive answer.
after that you can tell me again that there is no evidence for a maker and designer?.

john-psalm 14 v 1

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 11 May 13 - 05:57 AM

I guess it's comforting to think of ID & creators rather than face the reality of existence which is far from wondrous - but rather desolate and utterly hostile. The wellspring of religion is not just fear of death, but the innate fear of nature at its most rancid:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ritaljhhk7s

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,concerend
Date: 11 May 13 - 07:46 AM

Ii cannot believe this!!! Not content with plagarism from books.now you saddos are actually quoting each other!!
This really is the giddy end.
What a complete waste of time and energy.
You would all be better employed teaching JerkThe Sailor the differance between port and starboard..Nah.....that means actually thinking and researching yer subject.that is without paraphrasing some else

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 May 13 - 09:51 AM

That's right, John. It depends on what mood I'm in. Pete's posts are all incredibly foolish without fail. But I've decided to be patient and civil but only sometimes, if you get my drift. Now, on to his latest stuff 'n' nonsense...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 May 13 - 10:10 AM

"everyday laws of physics" steve? despite ploughing through an admittedly difficult article on wiki about chemical evolution it was apparent to me that despite numerous models, pasteurs confidence in his work finally discounting abiogenesis remains well founded.maybe you can do better steve?

I suggest you stick to sentences of eight words or fewer. That lot is a stream of inane and unconnected ideas. I'm wrestling with two things here: how you of all people can claim to have ploughed through a scientific article (read "Origin" yet, have we?), and what Louis Pasteur has to do with it. Can I do better than him? Well, I'm told he was a lousy harmonica player...

and while you are about it demonstrate the needed increase in information supposedly arising from mutations.last i heard loss and reshuffling are about the sum of it.

You don't get this stuff, pete, as you have oft been told. Let's just say that a mutation giving rise to a novelty is, indeed, "new information" for natural selection to get its teeth into. It wasn't there before, it's genetic "information" so it's new information. It's in addition to the "old information" that's still there, so it's all part of a process of accumulating "information". I mean, surely a man who can plough through a difficult article on chemical evolution should be able to see that? heheh. You clearly do not understand the concept of accumulation over long periods of beneficial mutations. Of course, you wouldn't would you, as you believe that the world began just a little while before Noah and his ark.   

maybe you can do better than dawkins who was stumped by the question,eventually only giving an evasive answer.

I commend any of Dawkins's best-known books as a good read on genetics for the intelligent layperson. There is no evasion because there is no need for evasion. Give me your specific source for any of his "evasions" and I'll happily demolish you.

after that you can tell me again that there is no evidence for a maker and designer?.

Absolutely not a scrap. You're worse than those God Of The Gaps fellows: you insert God even where there's no gap.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 May 13 - 11:25 AM

Let the Mystery Be
Iris DeMent
Everybody's wonderin' what and where they all came from.
Everybody's worryin' 'bout where they're gonna go when the whole thing's done.
But no one knows for certain and so it's all the same to me.
I think I'll just let the mystery be.

Some say once you're gone you're gone forever, and some say you're gonna come back.
Some say you rest in the arms of the Saviour if in sinful ways you lack.
Some say that they're comin' back in a garden, bunch of carrots and little sweet peas.
I think I'll just let the mystery be.

Some say they're goin' to a place called Glory and I ain't saying it ain't a fact.
But I've heard that I'm on the road to purgatory and I don't like the sound of that.
Well, I believe in love and I live my life accordingly.
I choose to let the mystery be.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 May 13 - 07:19 PM

Ebbie, I think that "Let the Mystery Be" is the most theologically profound song I have ever heard. I've heard people call it shallow, but I think people with that perspective and those who feel bound to legalize or intellectualize or criticize so many things that to me are so wonderful.

I like living a life filled with mystery and awe and wonder. I hope I never lose my habit of gazing and something wonderful and not being able to say more than simply, "Oh, wow!"

We don't have to be religious to live life filled with mystery and awe. We just have to hold onto the ability to find joy in all the beauty that surrounds us. May we protected, from becoming jaded.

Let the mystery be.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 May 13 - 07:28 PM

Very nice song (which I haven't heard sung, admittedly), but this line is a total copout:

Some say they're goin' to a place called Glory and I ain't saying it ain't a fact.

Why ain't she sayin' it? Well I'm sayin' it ain't a fact. I'm sayin' it's a bunch of unsupportable speculation. That's the whole trouble with these pop singers who turn "philosophical": they tend to be naive. They have lived in a bubble. "Imagine", that much-lauded Lennon effort, is about as naive as it gets. Which isn't to say it can't do some good. But do let's see these things for the shallow stuff that they really are.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 May 13 - 09:21 PM

I agree with you, Joe. I think the song says enough that it should bring an end to just about any disagreement on the subject.

I know what you mean, Steve Shaw, but I disagree; to me DeMent is clearly shrugging when she says that. She just chooses not to make it an issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 May 13 - 09:25 PM

You know, Steve, a lot of very wise and learned and good people have found hope and comfort and maybe even motivation in believing in heaven. A lot of other very wise and learned and good people have not.

If belief in a dream that may not be true gives hope and comfort, what's wrong with that? When they find out for certain, all their suffering will be over - and no harm will have been done by the illusion that gave them comfort. Sometimes I think that the hard truth is highly overrated. I think that dreams, even unrealistic dreams, can often have far greater value than the truth.

Let people have a little mystery, a little dreaming, a little unrealistic idealism in their life - no matter whether it's true or not. Is heaven a fantasy? Maybe so - but it's a very nice fantasy, and it often gives comfort to those who are suffering. As another very interesting song says, "Don't Rain on my Parade."

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 May 13 - 09:36 PM

I guess I feel that when I die, I'm "Goin' Home" - even if that "home" is the earth from whence I came....where there will be no more tears, no more suffering. (Revelation 21:4)


And although atheists may find it insulting to be compared with fundamentalist Christians, that's where fundamentalist Christians and militant atheists come together - in their insistence on certainty, in their insistence on their being in possession of the Truth. If atheists are insulted by my grouping them with fundamentalist Christians, keep in mind that I as a progressive Christian am also insulted by being grouped with fundamentalists. I believe in uncertainty - but also in possibility. Certainty is so limiting. I prefer to dream.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 11 May 13 - 10:26 PM

Without pointing out that Ms. Dement's melodies haven't changed much in 20 years, I will offer that, from a theological perspective, I think these two women contributed had more interesting speculations.

One of Us

What I Am

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 May 13 - 12:05 AM

Well, I've always liked Edie Brickell's "What I Am." Can't say Joan Osborne's "One of Us" does much for me, although it's interesting. Both songs take a rather depressing view of things. I think I'll stick with the awe and wonder and mystery. Makes for a happier life, I think. You and the fundamentalists can stick with the negative stuff, Stim.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 May 13 - 12:41 AM

Are both those songs acquired tastes? At my age I don't have enough time...

Sorry. I would have to read the lyrics to see whether I like either of those songs.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 12 May 13 - 01:37 AM

Joe;I've never heard either of them as being depressing--one song embraces the sense of wonder and rejects over-intellectualization, the other suggests that the human experience is the most important thing. And what makes you think I like being lumped in with the fundamentalists any better than you do?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 12 May 13 - 01:39 AM

I do like the snake-handlers, though...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 May 13 - 01:47 AM

This is a music forum, Stim. Feel free to post the lyrics and explain how they're positive. I don't see any awe and wonder in God being a slob like us.
Well, maybe I AM a bit of a slob....


I do like Edie Brickell's idea that "what I am is what I am" - and that I'm not here to live up to anybody's expectations. And I did happen to notice that Edie Brickell was outrageously beautiful at the time that video was made....

-Joe-

P.S. I don't think anybody likes being compared to fundamentalists...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 May 13 - 06:36 AM

If belief in a dream that may not be true gives hope and comfort, what's wrong with that? When they find out for certain, all their suffering will be over - and no harm will have been done by the illusion that gave them comfort... Sometimes I think that the hard truth is highly overrated.

I was careful to balance my criticism of the lyrics with mention of another song that invites us (naively) to imagine the very opposite. I don't think it's necessary to imagine one thing or the other. The hard truth you refer to is, of course, obstinately there (that's truth for you, if you believe in the concept, which I do), but it's hard truth, not harsh truth. The truth about life, existence and the universe is far more wonderful and complete (though not, enticingly, utterly complete for us as yet) than any insupportable imaginings. Imagine all you like but let your imaginings lead to a quest for truth. Not you personally. I can assure you that there is no emptiness, no gaping hole, in shunning matters mystical and wallowing in the extraordinarily ordinary stuff around us. If I snuff it before the missus she has strict instructions to throw my ashes upwards on a breezy day. That way I'll go back to being stardust a tad more quickly. What an honour!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 12 May 13 - 06:40 AM

ok steve - firstly are you saying that you have not seen the video?
assuming that you have not and are not rather trying to bait me;-
i dont know how to do links, but if you look on you tube for   richard dawkins stumped by creationist question, you will witness him giving the same kind of assertions as you give.this is after a long silence.he did not answer the question.maybe you can point me to something[other than a complete book!]where he does give the examples asked for.maybe you can?
"what has pasteur got to do withit" oh - was it someone else who conducted experiments that established that life only come from life?
i suspect that i ploughed through more of origins than you have read of any creationist writings[by fully qualified scientists!]

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 May 13 - 07:28 AM

Any "qualified scientist" that issues creationist writings ought to be immediately defrocked.

Life only comes from life - yep. Except, one fine day, billions of years ago, it all got started from non-life. I say it happened following the known laws of nature (though exactly how is an intriguingly interesting matter yet to be resolved). You say that some complex superbeing, for whom we have no evidence, kicked it off. Or something. Or was it just before Noah. Trouble is, I'm digging and you're guessing.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 May 13 - 09:35 AM

Back to this for a minute.

...that's where fundamentalist Christians and militant atheists come together - in their insistence on certainty, in their insistence on their being in possession of the Truth.

This has been refuted so many times here that I'm amazed that you could even think of bringing it up again. I don't know any of these atheists you refer to who are in possession of certainty. Certainly not me nor Richard Dawkins. And if moderate Christians, as opposed to fundamentalists, revel in uncertainty, then tell me why they acquiesce in the certainties expressed in so many of their hymns and prayers. Why don't they show a bit more spine and come up with more honest alternatives that truly represent their claimed uncertainty? You could start with "Our Father, who art in heaven..."

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans sin
Date: 12 May 13 - 10:12 AM

No such thing as a creationist scientist. You can explore creationism from a scientific angle I suppose but of course you would find the idea wanting.

This thread started with claiming, somewhat silly, that telling religious types to keep their hobby to themselves is a hobby in its own right. Very clever and very circular. Judging by your own standards is the more sanctimonious side of those who assert a view.

Joe is right in saying people don't like to be called fundamentalist and I see the point. However, belief surely requires a mental leap beyond logic and that in itself lends itself to a fundamental view. Anything less questions your overall Creed. I suspect that we mean saliva throwing Bible thumping bigotry when we say fundamental yet asserting tales as true requires what? Rational thought?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 12 May 13 - 03:53 PM

One of Us
Joan Osbourne

If God had a name, what would it be
And would you call it to his face
If you were faced with him in all his glory
What would you ask if you had just one question

And yeah yeah God is great yeah yeah God is good
yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah

What if God was one of us
Just a slob like one of us
Just a stranger on the bus
Trying to make his way home

If God had a face what would it look like
And would you want to see
If seeing meant that you would have to believe
In things like heaven and in jesus and the saints and all the prophets

And yeah yeah god is great yeah yeah god is good
yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah

What if God was one of us
Just a slob like one of us
Just a stranger on the bus
Trying to make his way home
He's trying to make his way home
Back up to heaven all alone
Nobody calling on the phone
Except for the pope maybe in rome

And yeah yeah God is great yeah yeah God is good
yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah

What if god was one of us
Just a slob like one of us
Just a stranger on the bus
Trying to make his way home
Just trying to make his way home
Like a holy rolling stone
Back up to heaven all alone
Just trying to make his way home
Nobody calling on the phone
Except for the pope maybe in rome

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 May 13 - 04:35 PM

If there is a God, then he/it is *everyone* of us on the bus.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 12 May 13 - 04:51 PM

I can answer your question, Steve. The imagery, references, whatever you want to call them are, for many, anyway, figurative. Or one could say, "Literary, not literal." Hymns, prayers, and such like are personal expressions, written by people who were simply trying to express their own feelings and ideas in a way that others could understand them--they are exactly like non-religious poems, pop songs, and other like, in that you look for what is personally meaningful in them, and if they doesn't speak to you, you move on.

Joe doesn't find the same meaning that I do in "One of Us", and has a particular problem with the "slob" reference. I am good with that. Other people had a problem with the song because it had "God" in it. So it goes...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 May 13 - 09:04 PM

I can answer your question, Steve. The imagery, references, whatever you want to call them are, for many, anyway, figurative. Or one could say, "Literary, not literal." Hymns, prayers, and such like are personal expressions, written by people who were simply trying to express their own feelings and ideas in a way that others could understand them--they are exactly like non-religious poems, pop songs, and other like, in that you look for what is personally meaningful in them, and if they doesn't speak to you, you move on.

Dearie me. What a cop-out! All that is fine (even though I don't believe it), except that you pass all that stuff down to your kids without telling them it's "all figurative, not literal, just like non-religious stuff". You teach them quite cheerfully the exact same prayers and hymns, filled with explicitly-stated certainties, that you learned yourself. By the time they are able to understand that these are merely figurative, not literal, etc., they've been chanting them and singing them for ten, twelve, fourteen or more years. Admit it. You get the kids to do the singing and chanting before they understand a damn thing about what they're singing and chanting because you're scared you'll lose them from the faith if you don't catch 'em early. We have a wonderful language that can be used to express those doubts you claim in a clear and simple way for your kids, yet you choose to make them chant the bogus certainties. I call that dishonest and I call it letting your kids down badly. It's all a little bit Chairman Mao, n'est-ce pas? If you lied to children in that manner in any other field of education, you'd end up in court!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 12 May 13 - 11:38 PM

It's not a copout. That's the way it is. Literature and the arts, not science, give us insight into the human experienceA lot of people may not get it, apparently you never did, but that's not my fault. If you'd grown up in my house you would have had everything explained to you in a way you could understand, whenever you showed an interest, and, perhaps unfortunately, a lot of times that you had no particular interest. I'm like that...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 May 13 - 12:51 AM

Steve, think twice about specifying that your ashes should be thrown upwards into the wind. I tried that with a friend's ashes, and ended up with a mouthful....


I guess I still can't understand why you are so insistent on your need to refute what others believe. Is there some reason why it is so hard for you to say, "It doesn't work for me," and then just let it be?

And again, it seems to me that the fundamentalist Christians do the same damn thing. It's their way or nothing. I've spent a lifetime in a respectful exploration of a wide variety the myths and traditions and beliefs of many creeds and cultures. It has made my life very rich, learning that there are many answers to the questions of life.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 May 13 - 03:49 AM

""I guess I still can't understand why you are so insistent on your need to refute what others believe. Is there some reason why it is so hard for you to say, "It doesn't work for me," and then just let it be?""

Look at the title of the thread Joe. That will tell you who is being attacked, and by whom.

I think Steve is entitled to put forward a defence, whether I agree with him or not.

This is why I feel more at home in talking to him than to many on the other side.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 May 13 - 08:18 AM

Steve Shaw
Perhaps Snail would articulate ... where there is any hint of "religiosity" in anything I say.

Well, "It's a great truth is a good start. That's the sort of thing God botherers say; it has no place in science. You're OK with the Logical Positivism are you?

Trouble is, I go away for a weekend of beer, women and song and things move on.

Steve Shaw
I don't know any of these atheists you refer to who are in possession of certainty.

I can only think of one. For someone who has banged on about evolution being TRUE it seems odd to claim that you are not "in possession of certainty".

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 May 13 - 09:04 AM

I don't know any of these atheists you refer to who are in possession of certainty.

I can only think of one. For someone who has banged on about evolution being TRUE it seems odd to claim that you are not "in possession of certainty".

You drank too much beer on your weekend. This conversation is about certainty concerning the existence or non-existence of God. I know you think evolution isn't true, you poor thing, but that's a whole nother matter. And, frankly, one that you waste far too much of your remaining energy on.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 May 13 - 09:20 AM

I guess I still can't understand why you are so insistent on your need to refute what others believe. Is there some reason why it is so hard for you to say, "It doesn't work for me," and then just let it be?

What you believe is entirely your affair. As long as you can accept that the world is full of many alternative beliefs and none, that yours has no automatic precedence over any others, and that you have no moral right to propagate your particular belief-by-accident as truth to other people (especially children, who end up as Christians only because they happened to be accidentally born to a Christian family in a Christian country). "Let it be" doesn't do it for me in those circumstances. I don't deny that there are some religious families who educate their children in matters religious very well, but many do not and there is nowhere near enough of a decent template that ensures that children are left unfettered by a particular belief system. Saying that you do the right thing, which I don't deny, does not let the whole of Christianity, or Islam, or any other proselytising faith, off the hook.

It has made my life very rich, learning that there are many answers to the questions of life.

I can only commend to you again the answers (and the quest for them) based on rational thought. That is not anything like as abjectly boring and Spock-like as it sounds. The world, nature and the universe are wonderful in their beauty, complexity and their amazing ordinariness. There's more than enough there to enrich your life for ever without the need for resort to irrational speculations.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 May 13 - 11:27 AM

Gee, I can buy all that, Steve - just not the throwing of ashes up and into the wind....

Don(Wyziwyg)T, I think the "militant atheists" described in the thread, are those who feel compelled to attack or convert those who believe in God. Otherwise, what would atheists have to be "militant" about?

And I do think such militants exist. Their tactic is the same used by militant right-wingers, argumentum ad absurdum - take the position held by others, oversimplify and redefine it to the point where it's ridiculous, and then condemn it.

Tolerance is all I ask for.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 13 May 13 - 12:21 PM

am i right or is i wrong but did steve say that it all happened according the "known laws of nature" followed by an admission that this interesting process is as yet undiscovered.
ie-it is a faith position
an evolution of the gaps
a contradition!
that was just relating to abiogenesis.
then there was the evasion of the mutation/nat selection producing new information.
can you or dawkins answer the question on that video?
ie- can you givean example of mutations leading to new info in the genome.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 May 13 - 01:08 PM

Don(Wyziwyg)T, I think the "militant atheists" described in the thread, are those who feel compelled to attack or convert those who believe in God. Otherwise, what would atheists have to be "militant" about?

Hmm. So we "feel compelled", eh? Well I'd warrant that the vast majority of threads in which we squabble over these things are not started by atheists. It's a bit like ten armed blokes attacking my house, then I get called militant for fighting back with my rolling pin.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: RichM
Date: 13 May 13 - 01:12 PM



Boring topic.

"Believe", or don't "Believe".

Get on with your lives...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 May 13 - 01:16 PM

am i right or is i wrong but did steve say that it all happened according the "known laws of nature" followed by an admission that this interesting process is as yet undiscovered.

You're wrong. You're always wrong. This "interesting process" is far from undiscovered, but a good deal has been discovered, and we are closing in. We are, for example, now within nanoseconds of the Big Bang. And, when we can't explain something, we keep investigating. We never shove highly-improbable "explanations" into gaps. We acknowledge the gap and carry on with the honest science. You wouldn't understand that. You can't even be honest with yourself.

By the way, I spent half an hour answering Stim and my post vanished into the ether. If I can muster some energy later I'll do it again. Though he may not much care for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 13 May 13 - 08:23 PM

Ah, Steve! What makes you think that anything that you say would bother me? Some of you scientists think you understand everything better than anyone else, and that we'll all wither and die when you set us straight. Always glad to hear your thought, of course, but understand that I regard them as just that-- your thoughts--

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 May 13 - 09:09 PM

I'm not speaking as a "scientist" thanks.

This is what you said:

It's not a copout. That's the way it is. Literature and the arts, not science, give us insight into the human experience A lot of people may not get it, apparently you never did, but that's not my fault. If you'd grown up in my house you would have had everything explained to you in a way you could understand...

Well, if I read that correctly, you appear to be surreptitiously bracketing religious literature (namely the Bible) as art. Well it isn't. Art to me is a path to understanding ourselves and the universe a bit better. What I get from art is a sense of human endeavour providing revelation. The Bible, the prayers and the hymns are not art. They are proselytising tools. Why else has the Bible been so brutally edited? Where are the gospels of Mary Magdalene and Thomas (who, inconveniently, and of all people, neglected to mention the crucifixion)? There may well be occasional lyrical passages therein, but those texts and hymns are pushily and heavily tendentious in a way that art, which first engages you then sits back in order for you to interpret subjectively and be edified, is most decidedly not. And you couldn't be more wrong about science. Science provides insight into the universe, into the world, into nature and into ourselves that is true. Art and science come together beautifully in mathematics, too. Good science, like art, is the fruit of honest human endeavour and has opened up new worlds, not just of technological advance but also of a delicious understanding of the natural world, insight of a strength and beauty that makes religious "insight" look banal, no matter how much gloss is put on it by theologians. I get it all right. I get it that you don't get science.

As for what went on in your house, well it doesn't go on in a lot of religious houses. We got 9-11 because the enlightenment you describe doesn't go on in all religious houses. Not nearly all, I'd wager.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 May 13 - 09:40 PM

I meant bracketed with art, not as art. It makes a difference. I made the same mistake when I typed the post that vanished.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 May 13 - 12:02 AM

Steve Shaw says: Well I'd warrant that the vast majority of threads in which we squabble over these things are not started by atheists.

I gotta agree with that, too, Steve.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket on a PC that loses posts!!!
Date: 14 May 13 - 04:11 AM

Next attempt.. Sorry.

Some people are missing the point here. As ever, go back to the OP and see what our nautical friend had to say. He put forward an idea that those who knock religions are just expounding a different religion. As a statement, I could say that I might agree with the idea that there are organisations putting forward an alternative to having to equate morals with superstition. The British Secular Society and The Humanist Organisation spring to mind, and I am sure that what we read of atheist churches and services etc in the more silly end of the Western world do no more than reinfoce the view that atheism is a creed.

However, and to repeat repeats... Atheism is not a title with a strict defining fence. I can say I am atheist and mean one thing and you can read into that something entirely different. For instance, I say there is no evidence that the metaphysical side of religions have any basis beyond superstition and therefore, I have no interest in the whole concept. Someone reading that might assume I am categorically saying there is no God. After all, that's what "atheists" think eh?

There is no more evidence for God than there is a lack of God. The evidence for refuting many things ascribed to a God is another matter. No. Flying carpets, creatures in his image, rising from the dead, seven days to make a planet, causing natural disasters by intervention, impregnation of a human by mythical creatures with wings, tablets of stone with writing on them that was not written by a human, parting the sea, burning bushes, bringing down stone walls with a single horn, a wonam being turned into a pillar of salt.... Sorry, my knowldege of the bible is little and then goes back to childhood to recall the above, but there is as much evidence within the demonstrable laws of physics , let alone probability, to dismiss such things out of hand.

Many people who profess a faith seem to agree that these are parables to encourage debate and soul searching. Fine. In which case, why not spend as much effort disowning or at least reining in those who make you look idiots by their literal approach as you do trying to ridicule and brow beat those who dismiss it all as medeivel curiosity?

the issue is; regardless of the country you are in whilst reading this, there are people trying to influence government to allow and promote forms of hatred, bigotry and suppression of discovery of knowledge on the basis that their hold on society is weakening, and in the immortal words of Corporal Jones, the fuzzy wuzzies don't like it up 'em.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 14 May 13 - 08:02 AM

so steve,seems that if you dont have an answer to a challenge you just make more assertion,mixed in with a little dose of ridicule.
you ,it seems are fully committed to your faith in darwin but there might be others following this thread who note your evation and draw their own conclusions.

you sure about that joe?
apart from the current batch started by jack,the only other thread started by a christian was kents some time ago [on this general theme].thats the only one that i recall.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 May 13 - 08:21 AM

Steve Shaw
You drank too much beer on your weekend.

That's the spirit! Don't waste time addressing the issues, go straight for the ad hominem attack.

This conversation is about certainty concerning the existence or non-existence of God.

I don't think so. You were responding to Joe saying "that's where fundamentalist Christians and militant atheists come together - in their insistence on certainty, in their insistence on their being in possession of the Truth. You certainly seem to think you are in possession of The Truth.

I know you think evolution isn't true, you poor thing

You know perfectly well that I think nothing of the sort. You have, at times, insisted on the distinction between evolution and the theory of evolution while using the two interchangeably at other times. It is unclear which you mean here. Whatever, I do not say that evolution isn't true I say that the statement "Evolution is true" is not meaningful in a scientific context. It makes no more sense than "Evolution is purple".

As I have said (and you haven't objected), your version of science corresponds to Logical Positivism, a philosophy that was discredited and abandoned, even by its advocates, forty years and more ago. It was displaced by falsifiability which you reject even though Dawkins does not.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 May 13 - 09:22 AM

I know you think evolution isn't true, you poor thing

You know perfectly well that I think nothing of the sort.

Good. That's settled then.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 May 13 - 09:33 AM

so steve,seems that if you dont have an answer to a challenge

Well, as you keep on burbling about this, yes I did watch the video the moment I read your post (next time, have the civility and good manners to indicate where one might find the things you wish us to watch. And don't give me that "I can't do links" bleat. Neither can I. But I can copy and paste the YouTube clip heading into my post, and so can you). In broadcast interviews things like that happen all the time. Someone decided to include the pause in order to put Dawkins in a bad light when the thing was put out. He actually acquitted himself quite well after the pause. But never mind. Do continue to clutch at straws. And do watch the dozens of other videos on YouTube in which he shows himself to be one of the best of the lot when it comes to thinking on his feet. Naturally, such selectiveness as you have shown here is typical of you bible-bashers. Go on, gimme an out-of-context chapter 'n' verse for our entertainment. You must have hundreds up your sleeve.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 14 May 13 - 12:18 PM

so steve,you watched the vid.that is a small fraction of the challenge but i suppose it is a start.of course i expected you to claim that it was doctored by us awfully dishonest creationist types.
i dont however know how you could know that except that your presuppositions demand it.
be that as it may,the challege was not met.if he aquited himself well it was only by evading the question - just as you are.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 May 13 - 01:08 PM

He did not evade the question and the tape was not doctored. It wasn't edited, that's all. Do you suppose that every interview you see on the telly is done without a few takes? Do you suppose that every CD track you hear is a live first take? Do you suppose that Gone With The Wind was made in real time? What kind of world are you living in? Have you seen the dozens of interviews and debates in which he's been remarkably alert and sure-footed, on the self-same topic that you're accusing him of being evasive over? So what's your motivation for picking out the one that is wholly unrepresentative of the man? It isn't driven by honesty, is it, pete?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 May 13 - 07:27 PM

Steve Shaw
I'm not speaking as a "scientist" thanks.

I'm glad you said that. I think some people are under the impression that you are.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 May 13 - 07:30 PM

I honestly don't care. I know what I'm speaking as, thanks. Have you actually got anything to contribute?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 14 May 13 - 10:24 PM

Steve-Just one thought, and that is that your idea that the Bible is novel, to say the least.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 May 13 - 02:09 AM

Steve Shaw said: Well I'd warrant that the vast majority of threads in which we squabble over these things are not started by atheists.

Joe said: I gotta agree with that, too, Steve.

---

A couple of people called me on that, and they're right. The plethora of atheist-baiting threads has come just in the last few weeks, and mostly from one person. For a long time before that, the Conventional Wisdom was that Atheism is the Official Doctrine of Mudcat and No Other Opinions Are Tolerated. That was unfair, but so is this overabundance of atheist-baiting threads. I wish people could learn to tolerate each other. There are wise, good people who are religious; and there are wise, good people who are not religious. Why can't we all just get along?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 May 13 - 04:27 AM

Perhaps, when the fundies like Pete stop conflating Atheism with lack of morals and ethics, they might be tolerable people Joe.

Not everybody is as tolerant as you.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 May 13 - 05:57 AM

"Why can't we all just get along?"

I think most of us do. I get along fine with you and Stim and Don though our perspectives are different (always bearing in mind that front-of-the-house comments might well be masking cordial offline relationships). When I think about it, I get far more worked up about people who attack honest science in these threads than about those who attack atheism. I think it's OK to be fearless about putting across our contradictory and provocative views with no holds barred as long as lack of thought, misrepresentation (a cardinal sin in my book) and prejudice can be left at the door. It's annoying when you seem to be spending half your time informing eejits who should be able to read that you did not say or mean what they claim you said or meant, even though you'd typed it in plain English in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 May 13 - 05:59 AM

I don't understand your post, Stim.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 May 13 - 07:52 AM

Steve Shaw

I think it's OK to be fearless about putting across our contradictory and provocative views with no holds barred as long as lack of thought, misrepresentation (a cardinal sin in my book) and prejudice can be left at the door. It's annoying when you seem to be spending half your time informing eejits who should be able to read that you did not say or mean what they claim you said or meant, even though you'd typed it in plain English in the first place.

Quite agree, Steve, which is why lines like "I know you think evolution isn't true, you poor thing" are so annoying.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 May 13 - 09:31 AM

But evolution is true, even though you keep telling me I shouldn't be saying it. That can only mean you don't think it's true. Evolution is true, and the theory of evolution by natural selection is a superb and comprehensive explanation of it. That is not to say that the explanation can never be tweaked (perish the thought) as new knowledge comes to light, or that new mechanisms won't be discovered, but evolution happens and no-one will ever credibly overturn the fact. It simply isn't possible any more. Now that's what I think, and I care not a jot for your nit-pickings over what I've said before. I'm really happy to clarify that for you. It might not be what you think but it's what I think, which you've known all along you annoying bugger, and I have no time for your displays of philosophical musings over the meaning of science. Call me Mr Philistine for that, but the problem here is that your interventions rarely have anything to do with the substantive matter to hand. Start a thread on the philosophy of science and I really, really promise not to bug you.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 15 May 13 - 12:51 PM

still evading the question steve.
just asserting that dawkins does answer it on other videos is not exactly evidence that he does.
or that you can.
if "evolution is true" and is testable,verifiable science surely a few examples relating to the question should be no problem steve.
alternatively an admission that there are no known examples will suffice - though it would highlight the faith factor of darwinism !.

thanks for clarifying joe.the only atheist that has been consistently civil [at least to me] is bill.my failings relate to grammtical errors and not agreeing but not to using insulting language.except that the disagreement is taken as insulting,by some!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 May 13 - 07:32 PM

You are far and away the most insulting, prejudiced and ignorant person on this forum. You deny honest science. In so doing, you diss the efforts of thousands of honest people who are trying to answer the big questions by getting down to the hard work required to answer them. But you yourself have done no work. You rely entirely, and lazily, on the declarations of people who are little less than completely insane. You ignore hard-won evidence and preach your lazy received wisdom. You are clearly an embarrassment to all the believers on this forum (ever noticed, old chap, the silence from believers that follows your every post?). You are on your own. Maybe you'll take strength from that. Another way of looking at it from your point of view is that you would do yourself a big favour by just disappearing. We need your inane input like we need a second arsehole.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 15 May 13 - 10:53 PM

Your idea that the Bible is not literature is quite novel(no pun intended). In the past, it was fairly standard for the non-religious to say that The Bible was a great literary work, but it was not the word of God. Now you have taken it in a whole new direction.

Given that the Bible has been around, in one form or another for say, 3700 years, and has remained useful for most of that time, I am not sure that your assessment is really the one we ought to hang our hats on. Of course, I am not a scientist...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 May 13 - 12:19 AM

Steve Shaw says: When I think about it, I get far more worked up about people who attack honest science in these threads than about those who attack atheism.

Once again: how can I disagree with that?


Then again, I don't think there have been any serious attacks against atheists here at Mudcat. Every once in a while, someone will launch a timid defense of "creationism" or "intelligent design," But there really haven't been any outright attacks on atheism.

So, it would be nice to dispense with the atheist-theist animosity here altogether, since nobody really needs to feel threatened.

As for me, my religious beliefs and practices have to coincide with what Steve calls "honest science." If it's generally accepted within the scientific community, I most likely accept it also.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: John P
Date: 16 May 13 - 12:26 AM

While there are some really nice passages in the Bible, it is largely a really dreadful read. Great literature it is not, nor is it history. Philosophically, the really offensive stuff in the Old Testament far outweighs the relatively small part of the New Testament that isn't smugly self-satisfied. Judgmentalism pervades the whole thing. Yes, we would all be better people if we lived like Jesus said (when he wasn't talking about God), and there is some nice poetry in Ecclesiastics and Psalms. Odd bits of interesting philosophy scattered here and there. Beyond that, not a lot that's very readable. The only really interesting thing about it, and the reason for it's longevity, is that it is the holy book of a major religion.

The only reason the Bible is ever taught as literature in schools is because Christians want it to be. Stim says it has been "useful" for thousands of years, but useful isn't literature. Useful is being the holy book of a major religion. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the Bible as a holy book, and it is obviously a very effective one. To believers it clearly has great meaning. But calling it great literature seems rather self-serving, a way to insert it into secular life in a way that it doesn't merit, hoping that no one will want to offend Christians by saying it doesn't belong there.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 May 13 - 01:10 AM

John P., I take it that you have never read the Bible.

The judgmentalism you speak of, really isn't there - that's something imposed on the Bible by fundamentalists who excerpt "proof texts" to prove the rightness of their prejudices. For the most part, the Bible is what it is - the good, the bad, and the ugly. Jonah and Job are terrific folktales, and the stories in the books of Samuel and Kings are great storytelling. Isaiah is wonderful, beautiful poetry - as are the psalms and proverbs.
The Gospels are good stories, as is Acts. The letters of Paul range from the absurd to the sublime - but I sure wish he'd get rid of his misogynism.

Oh, and Genesis and Exodus are great stories - if you don't try to look on them as history. They're written in mythological language, dontchaknow. And they're every bit as valuable as Homer, who also wrote in mythological language.

The Bible expresses the beliefs of people at the time the books were written. Sometimes, those beliefs are objectionable to us in our modern age, but we're not compelled to live without advancing beyond the beliefs and lives of people living at the time of David.

But no, you can't just throw out the Bible and say it's trash. It has true literary value, and it chronicles the thinking of a people over a significant period of time.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: John P
Date: 16 May 13 - 01:35 AM

Joe, I have to disagree that no one attacks atheists around here. Pete, certainly, and Ron Davies every chance he gets. Olddude, too. And all these recent threads of Jack's have been pointed attacks. I also see a lot of the lack of tolerance and acceptance for religious belief that you have noted, but do you really think the atheist crowd starts talking about religion out of the blue? Isn't it usually in response to something? The things I dislike the most about the atheist attacks are that some of us apparently expect you and Jack and a few others to defend any and all Christian dogma and policy, and to carry the weight of every bad thing that has been done in the name of religion throughout history. A really foolish expectation.

I think one of the things you've been trying to get across, and which is very obvious to anyone who has Christian friends, is that Christianity happens in the individual, and most of the time causes them to concentrate on being better people. Unfortunately, it also seems to drive some individuals to intolerance and a desire to control other peoples' lives. Christianity also happens on the level of huge bureaucratic money-machines headed by power seekers that go about doing evil things. Many non-religious huge bureaucratic money-machines headed by power seekers go about doing evil things as well, which makes me thing the problem isn't necessarily caused by the religion. The point is that the two versions of Christianity don't really seem to have a lot of impact on each other, and attacking individuals for the sins of the organization is not only misdirected but almost certain to make the individuals hurt and angry.

But I see just as many or more blithe but offensive assumptions being made about atheists. The tragic part is that I think many Christians are unaware of how offensive they are being, as if they've never stepped outside their assumption that Christianity is the only viable way of living long enough to see how smug and superior they seem to others. I'm not talking about you, Joe, of course. You are almost always astonishingly level-headed and fair. I think it must be that attitude of acceptance of others you display as strongly as you display your faith and how it works in your life.

I agree, why can't we just get along? I'd love to have a discussion with a believer where we talk about the actual beliefs held by the individual and the reasons for them. I'd like to explore how a Christian goes about selecting which of the beliefs to hold and which to call metaphor. I'd like to explore the nature of belief itself, where and why it arises in a person. I'd like to deconstruct the symbolism contained in the Catholic mass from the point of view of Eastern meditation philosophy and whether or not there is an experience that the symbols describe. I'd like to talk about the religious experience of bliss and how it relates to blissful states of mind described by other religions and cultures. I'd like to compare and contrast prayer with Wiccan spell-casting. And I'd like to do it all without being put down for being an atheist, without science being expected to provide philosophical answers, and without anyone in the conversation being blamed for the Spanish Inquisition or rapist priests.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: John P
Date: 16 May 13 - 01:41 AM

Joe, I see we are cross-posting with two different conversations. I don't have time to respond about the Bible tonight, except to say that I have indeed read it, parts of it multiple times. More later, I hope, although I have some heavy and time-consuming medical stuff coming up over the next few days that will limit my Mudcat time.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 May 13 - 02:21 AM

John P., I think you and I need to sit down and have a beer together. I think we'd really enjoy it.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 13 - 06:40 AM

I don't think I was saying that the Bible isn't literature, just that we shouldn't be elevating it to the status of a work of art. The Bible is a proselytising tool. What is in the Bible is highly selective. You could probably compile a substantial alternative Bible from what's been deliberately left out. As I said, I don't deny that there are many lyrical passages in the Bible (though I suspect much is lost, or perverted, in translation). But art it ain't, for the reason I gave before.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 16 May 13 - 07:36 AM

joe- i note that you accept what the majority of scientists say is true.correct me if that is not the import of your meaning.
if that is correct,i should have thought that science would be severely hampered because we know the majority have been wrong in the past many times.
failing to give an answer to straighforward questions except with abuse does not strike me as being scientific.
and why is it acceptable to slag off scientists that interpret the evidence differently but charge detracters from your own view with being insulting for being in polite disagreement.
is that the sort of science that you trust,joe?
there is nopoint in my replying to steves last post as there is nothing constructive contained therein.
but if he does want to answer the questions and lay off the abuse we can resume!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 13 - 08:51 AM

I have yet to see a constructive point about science or scientists in any of your posts. I have seen lots of abuse. Abuse with a wee smile is still abuse. You are a highly-ignorant and prejudiced man.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 May 13 - 01:19 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 May 13 - 01:25 PM

&c.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans respectability
Date: 16 May 13 - 03:40 PM

pete. What is the difference between interpreting differently based on honest questioning and interpreting dishonestly to support a myth?

What is your basis of a young earth? Is it because fossil evidence doesn't stack up? Is it because there is something that fundamentally prevents any other interpretation from having merit?

Please. If there is anything that supports it, say it. I know of no text that supports it. None. I hear that some say it must be so because the Bible stories say so. Is that the basis of your assertion? is that the bedrock of the alternative scientists you quote?

Fo you know the difference between stories and evidence?

It is difficult to rise above insulting you if you insist on such things. The insults are perhaps treating you as an equal. Humouring you would be more insulting, surely?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 May 13 - 07:42 PM

Worship the melon, the season will sook be here to partake of its flesh. Join Opus Melopepo.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 May 13 - 01:09 AM

700.

The Devil made me do it....

---

And yes, Pete, I do think that the majority of what "scientists say" is true. Of course, that means stuff that has gone through the Scientific Process and vetted through the academic publish process and such. But yea, I get my science from science, not from the Bible.

The Bible is a book of faith - nothing more, nothing less. I read it every day and it was a primary aspect of my undergraduate studies in Theology. But no, I don't look to the Bible for information on anthropology, or on the origins of the human race.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans body
Date: 17 May 13 - 03:31 AM

Q. Religion is a seasonal and geographical thing. Here where I live we are beginning to worship the asparagus deity. By next week I shall be worshipping at the altar of rhubarb.

It will be a while before the potato god calls and carrots same as parsnip call us to prayer when the nights draw in.

Mind. We have good communion wine from last year's crab apples. ..

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 17 May 13 - 02:36 PM

well musket you no doubt are referring to creationism when you talk of myth.apart from the parts of evolutio such as natural selection and mutations and other science that can be verified by observable,repeatable,testable means,and also is affirmed by creationists,i believe darwinism is a myth.though it has different denominations the bedrock of darwinism is not subject to testing.
if you think it is,you might like to tackle the questions dawkins and steve evaded.
joe - everyone has their presuppositions that colour their research.as i indicated to musket darwinism is his presupposition,,and yours also it seems.the creationist admits to his starting point and of course that effects his research.are you aware that there are a lot of creationist scientists and general darwin doubters.
as much as i respect your theology degree,i find it sad that you believe,at least historically that it is untrustworthy.
maybe the devil made you di it!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 May 13 - 03:11 PM

Musket, beware of false deities. Asparagus seems to be popping up in profusion.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 May 13 - 03:53 PM

Pete, here's what I learned in Theology school:

The two creation stories in Genesis are beautiful pieces of literature, written in the poetic language of myth. The first creation story (Genesis 1:1-2:3) uses particularly beautiful poetry, repeating each day in the same format and ending each day with, "And God saw that it was good. And evening came and morning came, the __th day." It's meant to show the wonder and awe of creation, and the fact that God was and is present in every moment of a creation that is still unfolding. God is present within the wonderful, evolutionary process of creation - not some external force acting from afar. Note, however, that the language and structure of the piece is poetic, meant to paint a word picture - not to describe scientific processes. Oh, and note that humankind and most animals were created on the sixth day.

The second creation story (Genesis 2:4-25) is quite different. Man and woman were almost the very first things created. In this story, God is much more anthropomorphic than in the first story - in this story, God interacts directly with humankind. "Adam" (man) and Eve (woman) are symbolic representations of all humankind. The story of the "original sin" of eating the forbidden fruit (not specified to be an apple) is also symbolic of humankind turning away from good and choosing selfishness and sin - continued by Cain's sin of killing his brother.

These stories in Genesis are but two of many creation myths that came from the time. There are many similarities in the various myths, and many differences. But none of them are meant to be scientific descriptions of how the world and its creatures came to be. Science does a far better job of that. The best and most understandable I've seen is at the Smithsonian Natural History Museum in Washington, DC.

This is a pretty conventional stance, held by theologians from the Catholic Church and most of the "mainline" Protestant churches, and many Jews. Very few people in these churches reject the idea of evolution, although most see God as active within the process of evolution. They make no attempt to prove the presence of God in evolution, because they view this as a matter of faith that cannot be proved. And in no way do they see the action of God as contradicting the processes of nature, as described by scientific research. They see no inherent conflict or contradiction between science and faith. They do see the creation stories of Genesis as sacred and wonderful documents of faith, but they wouldn't dream of taking these stories literally.

Many Baptists and most other "born-again" religions are the only ones who take a more literal view of scripture and reject the idea of evolution. These "born-again" religions are wildly popular in the United States and they are growing at an alarming rate in many parts of the world. We in the "mainline" religions try to be polite to the "born-agains," but we have nothing in common with them and can't understand or accept their beliefs any more than the atheists can.

Note that the Catholics and the "mainline" churches all have a few fundamentalist members, but generally not in leadership positions.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 May 13 - 06:12 PM

Very few people in these churches reject the idea of evolution, although most see God as active within the process of evolution.

Well Joe, much as I'd love to have you onside versus peteism, this statement encapsulates the whole problem. It would be really tempting just to say that, well, these religious types have simply got to involve God somewhere, and we might as well let them accommodate the scientists by their agreeing to evolution but insisting that God got the whole thing going. Unfortunately, the whole point of evolution by natural selection is that it makes God entirely redundant (this point troubled Darwin, but he was a bit too timid to come out with it). There isn't a single step in evolution ever discovered that requires the intervention of God to make it happen. The laws of nature take care of everything. Even the origin of life itself (a step that to some, even some scientists, is somehow seen as a sacred moment) was almost certainly a pretty mundane event that happened in a muddy pond somewhere. God is just a clumsy insertion, put there to satisfy the consciences of those believers who really want to respect science. They would do far better to respect, and have confidence in, their own intellects. Easy truth can be poured over you. Real truth is well worth fighting for!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 May 13 - 06:38 PM

No, Steve, you're mixing the fundamentalist and progressive views, and they just don't coincide. Progressive Christians and Jews won't argue with science at all. They see the same processes scientists see, but they look in wonder at nature and see the presence of God within the processes scientists observe - not as an external force. And if others see the same thing and don't see the presence of God, that's fine, too. There are variations in this perspective - some see God both within and beyond nature and all the wonderful things we encounter in life. But in general, you won't find progressive Christians and Jews who see God as intervening or interrupting. They see God as acting through the laws of nature. I can't "dumb down" faith to make it satisfactory to you, Steve. People of faith are people who know God in their lives, in one way or another. People of faith are not necessarily stupid or inventing things or whatever you may claim. They just see things in a way that's different from the way you see them. I belong to a faith tradition that traces itself back over 3,000 years. It's a tradition that is very sacred and meaningful to me. If it's not meaningful to you, that's OK by me. But be careful when you try to refute it or denigrate it. It has a long history of wisdom behind it. And besides. trying to refute or denigrate it, is downright impolite.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 May 13 - 07:24 PM

Progressive Christians and Jews won't argue with science at all. They see the same processes scientists see, but they look in wonder at nature and see the presence of God within the processes scientists observe - not as an external force. And if others see the same thing and don't see the presence of God, that's fine, too.

Well, I won't jump on your use of "progressive", though I could...

Contemplating the wonders of nature is (to me) why we're here. The paradox in the position of people of faith is that the self-same God who you see as driving things (and who gave us our brains) truncates your enquiry. He provides far too lazy an answer, which, when you think about it, is about as lame an answer as it's possible to conceive. Nature, allegedly, exists because of him, and he drives it. Yet there is nothing in nature that can't be explained by ordinary, everyday laws. He's an incredibly poor explanation in other ways too: he's clearly a very complex being, he breaches every known law and he is utterly inexplicable. Well, I'm an atheist because my poor, demented brain demands something a little more intellectually rigorous than that.   

People of faith are not necessarily stupid or inventing things or whatever you may claim.

You won't find me calling believers stupid. Most believers I know appear to sideline their belief, and get on with their lives pretty much the same as everyone else, for 99% of the time. In most cases I wouldn't be knowing who's a believer and who isn't.

I belong to a faith tradition that traces itself back over 3,000 years. It's a tradition that is very sacred and meaningful to me. If it's not meaningful to you, that's OK by me. But be careful when you try to refute it or denigrate it. It has a long history of wisdom behind it.

Yeah but yours is a positive upstart compared to mine. My tradition goes back to Lucy or Homo habilis or Australopithecus, or those chaps who painted animals on freezing cave walls in central Europe. My tradition's called humanity. Yours is, with respect, something of a bolt-on! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 18 May 13 - 05:57 AM

thankyou joe for the outline of what you were taught at theology classes.i have seen these arguments before and they are answered well by many orthodox scholars.to go through these would take some time and i am not very fast on my finger type.but i will discuss in more detail if required by yourself.
as much as i would like to have had you with me against stevism i find myself in the unlikely situation of agreeing that the majority view of accomodation is a cop out. dawkins even said that the "evangelicals have it right" in reference to where the battle really is.he actually seems more disdainful of the accomodatists,while at the same time largely avoiding creationists if they are well qualified scientists- but i drift!.
i think that your "progressive" views on the bible would not be countenanced as worthy of the tradition you claim to belong to by the early christians, and christians generally utill darwinism achieved the supremacy in origins thinking.at that point the bible began to be interpreted in light of "science" to read what no-one had seen before!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 May 13 - 08:42 AM

while at the same time largely avoiding creationists if they are well qualified scientists

He doesn't avoid 'em. He can't find any.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket with smelly wee
Date: 18 May 13 - 01:13 PM

Damned asparagus!

Sorry, where was I? Oh yes.

I was delighted to read that pete says that Darwinism is my presupposition. I don't wish to split hairs here but it most certainly isn't and I have never said so. I have no presupposition on any subject (other than in respect of football, up the Owls!) and would be comfortable to be wrong if evidence led to destroying long held positions. My main comment on Darwin is that it must have been hilarious seeing those who used religion as a tool to control others be in fear of logic for the first time.

And for our regular viewers, here is a quote from a letter in The Times a few months ago. "The country has lost its Christian values. The government must right this wrong." the first sentence reflects a view, possibly right depending on what Christian values are. The writer seems to lament the fact. Again, whatever floats your boat. The second sentence is where a disillusioned chap becomes a potentially dangerous God botherer.

I wonder what Christian values are? If it means helping others, being kind, giving alms, doing good deeds etc, I have to point out they are not Christian values. I try and my mate Ahmed certainly succeeds in my view. That makes them human values. Who was it that said altruism is a trait carried out purely for instinctive survival?

Err.. Darwin anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans truth
Date: 18 May 13 - 02:15 PM

Sorry just to add.

Joe. If pete is ever good enough at typing to enlighten you on what you got wrong when studying theology can you share it with us?

Out of interest was this a turn the other cheek or count to ten moment?

You pointed out above that you are polite to them. Penny for what you were really thinking?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 May 13 - 01:40 AM

"Yet there is nothing in nature that can't be explained by ordinary, everyday laws."

Horse dung.


String Theory, Quantum mechanics, Relativity, the origins of vision and hearing in animals are hardly ordinary or everyday the explanations for them are quite extraordinary and exceptional.

There are educated guesses about such things there is even some observation that supports the guesses, but they laws that govern many things in science are far from settled and ordinary.

It is a certainly that you can't have observed none of those things and therefor you take their existence on faith.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 May 13 - 03:41 AM

Musket wonders what i'm really thinking when I encounter fundamentalists.

I'm thinking really hard about ways to hold my tongue and be polite, knowing that opposing them won't do any good.

I have no problem finding atheists and others to work with me on social justice causes, but I've about given up trying to get any participation from the fundamentalists. The fundamentalist Catholic parish in town doesn't want to have anything to do with us, because we associate with Protestants and other people like that....

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans Heisenberg
Date: 19 May 13 - 03:54 AM

Hello sailor!

Ordinary everyday laws. Or classic physics or Newtonian physics.

Nobody was referring to quantum mechanics. Go back to school and come back when you can differentiate between the two subjects. Classic physics contradicts Scripture. Quantum mechanics renders it irrelevant. Take your choice.



Joe. I just thought it hilarious when pete dismissed your life study and thought on the basis he has to be right. Yet my more serious point would be that when leaders of religions get their house in order and state what represents their supposed right to give a moral perspective the better. Here in The UK parliament votes on gay marriage next week. Today's headline? s change in the opinion of The Archbishop of Canterbury. Don't recall seeing him on my last ballot paper. ...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 May 13 - 08:41 AM

String Theory, Quantum mechanics, Relativity, the origins of vision and hearing in animals are hardly ordinary or everyday the explanations for them are quite extraordinary and exceptional.

Yes, ordinary and everyday. We might not yet understand every nut and bolt. But that simply makes them a challenge. It does not make them magical or supernatural. Or even exceptional. They've been there all the time, just like that rock sitting in my garden. I don't understand algebra very well, but that doesn't make it quite extraordinary and exceptional. It means I have work to do, that's all. That's what science is. Working to understand stuff properly. Closing in on our gaps in knowledge by dint of honest hard slog. Not calling it what it isn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 19 May 13 - 05:14 PM

i dont know algebra at all but i am confidant that there are experts that do know it inside out.my science may not be much but i am pretty certain that there is much that is still not understood and for which naturalistic explanations are missing.to posit that you will understand and explain them some time soon is an act of faith.you cannot know that.
if dawkins cant find any well qualified creationist scientists he certainly aint looking for them, and you are living in denial if you claim that there are,nt any

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 May 13 - 08:15 PM

to posit that you will understand and explain them some time soon is an act of faith.you cannot know that.

Absolute rubbish. Science has always moved on, made progress and closed in on the stuff we don't presently know. To say we'll explain them sometime soon is no act of faith. It's a prediction based on past experience.

if dawkins cant find any well qualified creationist scientists he certainly aint looking for them, and you are living in denial if you claim that there are,nt any

What do you think you mean by "well qualified"? We must have told you, Mr Thickie, a thousand times why there are no "creationist scientists". The term is an oxymoron. If you accommodate creationist bullshit you are not a scientist (and, as you wouldn't know what a scientist was even if one jumped up and bit you on your creationist bollocks, please don't try to tell me otherwise). It is impossible. Simple as that. You have, in effect, declared that you have dismissed the scientific method. Your scientist thought processes have been fatally perverted. You don't believe in evidence. You are not such much an oxymoron as a moron. Now why don't you just toddle off and sing some nice folk songs to some nice people. Keep yourself nice and busy. You must know a few. But don't tell them your views on creation whatever you do.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 May 13 - 09:27 PM

I suppose Steve Shaw's position towards me, is about my position toward "pete from seven stars link" - or maybe the three of us all have similar views of each other. I have the impression that both Steve and Pete are very good people. They care about things deeply, and they have spent their lifetimes pondering the questions of life. And while I am not always mindful of their goodness and caring and thinking, they remain good and caring and thoughtful. And yet I disagree with their thinking completely, and that can make me condescending toward them, perhaps angry at times.

So, I thought I'd take a moment to remember that Pete and Steve are good, caring, thoughtful people.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 19 May 13 - 11:18 PM

I think that is a good thought, Joe. Not all minds work alike, and it's not really helpful to expect them to.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 20 May 13 - 06:16 AM

Here's a cracker that's bound to catch on in the Christian West, assuming it hasn't already:

Atheism is a Form of Autism

For the record I'd say religion is a form of Cultural Autism; it seeks comfort in the familiar and the knowable, it thrives on routine, pedantry, ritual, obsession, compulsion & repetition, which are signifiers of both mental illness and religious devotion.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 May 13 - 06:59 AM

Good, caring, thoughtful people do not shut their minds firmly on science, persistently display blind prejudice, diss honest, hard-working scientists at every opportunity and tell lies about "creationist scientists". People like that are, at best, seriously deluded and, at worst, seriously in danger of propagating very harmful messages. Good and caring, well I don't know the bloke (and don't want to). Thoughtful? Not in a million years. Not on any topic he posts about here. He's an internet horror, all wrapped in nice smiles.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 20 May 13 - 08:19 AM

I must admit I find all this personal stuff a tad specious. I don't come here to judge or be judged, much less 'understood' - stick to the topic, chaps.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 20 May 13 - 11:57 AM

thankyou joe.and i return the compliment.you may think i,m a non thinking fundamentalist but you dont get abusive about it.of course those that do get abusive certainly don,t bolster their argument except to those of the same ilk . argument weak [or completely absent!] shout like blazes!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 May 13 - 06:10 PM

"Those who do get abusive??" You are by far the most abusive person on this forum. You abuse just about every scientist who ever lived. You appear to think that a highly-selective series of tendentious writings by a bunch of desert-dwellers trumps honest scholarship, and you never hesitate to tell us so. So don't give me your abuse-victim bullshit, please.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 May 13 - 03:47 AM

C'mon, Steve. Pete hasn't abused anybody. He's always been very gentle and polite. He simply disagrees with scientists who are proponents of evolution (which may well be "every scientist who ever lived") - but that's not abuse. It's just disagreement. I tend to side with the scientists; but Pete has a right to an opinion, and he expresses his opinion humbly, quietly, and politely.

It's your fundamentalist obsession with "truth" that makes you think his disagreement is some sort of abuse. I know your type, Steve. Everything has to be absolutes. One minute you're preaching atheism, and the next you'll be slinging the Bible at us.

God forbid.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 May 13 - 04:06 AM

""if dawkins cant find any well qualified creationist scientists he certainly aint looking for them, and you are living in denial if you claim that there are,nt any""

Pete, Apart fom the services of a good English grammar coach, you also need a course in logical thought and expression.

There are indeed scientists, mostly of the airy fairy sciences on the fringe of the real scientific community, who are also creationists.

Your reversal of that idea to talk about ""Creation Scientists"" is a total nonsensical non sequitur.

There is no such thing as creation science.

The whole charade is based on a negation of science in which you start off with a belief and twist the facts to fit.

Science starts with an observation and well established principles of investigation and experiment are applied to the task of understanding what that observation means.

The results are what they are.

If they fit into the overall sum of scientific knowledge all well and good.

If they destroy an existing scientific structure, then the structure is changed to update and accommodate the new addition.

If you cannot understand the difference then it is a flaw in your thinking, not a flaw in the universal laws of physics.

Put as politely as possible, drop the ""Creation Science"" crap, it doesn't exist, and to suggest that it does is dishonest.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 May 13 - 04:21 AM

But Don, if some people want to hold onto a literal view of the biblical creation story, does it really matter? If you visit the Smithsonian Natural History Museum in Washington, DC, you'll see a stunning display that tells the story of evolution very well. You'll find no mention of "Creation Science" or the biblical creation myths.

Seems to me, then, that the supporters of evolution have prevailed. Why continue to attack the minority who think otherwise? How is it that they can do you or the world any harm?

Is Newthink/Rightthink all that important?


-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 21 May 13 - 04:27 AM

http://www.theonion.com/articles/evangelical-scientists-refute-gravity-with-new-int,1778/

so if i (say?)drop a peanut it falls through god's will - not my clumsiness?

intelligent falling eh? so presumably the wind blowing in oklahoma is intelligent wind. so why would religious types pray to their god to ask them to stop doing something that they have clearly chosen to do. destroying peoples' lives and devastating parts of the world could not realistically be the will of a loving or all-powerful god. in fact only a malign,disinterested or deranged presence would design and run the whole show like this. what has to happen before people will conclude there is no god?

really,religion just reveals the extent of our varied craziness and our inability to take responsibility to run our own world properly and fairly. atheists who point this out are trying to help the good people afflicted to accept reality and to work together with compassion and good will to improve the real world. now.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 May 13 - 04:53 AM

Achmelvich, even rational, responsible atheists are unable to do anything about the weather, now matter how responsibly and fairly and properly they run our world.
The tornado was caused by forces of nature, not by God.

But when many people are faced with a tragedy that is beyond what they can deal with, they pray. They pray for protection, they pray for help, they pray for comfort, they pray for healing. It's a primal thing, and it gives them hope and makes them feel better.

Why stop them?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans reality check
Date: 21 May 13 - 05:26 AM

Joe asks if it matters that people may have a fundamental literal view.

Well actually it does.

No issue with the view. My mate reckons the moon landings didn't happen. Still worth drinking with as his musical appreciation and knowledge is a treat to behold and he is a great friend. Just a bit weird where NASA is concerned.

If he got a few others to agree with him, (and I mean after they sober up..) then he could get the local authorities to teach it as an alternative view to impressionable children.

You see, children need protection from stupidity or they may become stupid themselves.

Which may be part of a grand plan.

And that is sad.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 21 May 13 - 05:56 AM

yes,it does matter. we are fortunate in relatively enlightened europe that such fundamental views are rare and dealt with - usually - appropriately (or dismissed as barmy) however,in other parts of the world such as in the us and the middle east they are strongly held views that often lead to the persecution of the other, different (inferior) religious and cultural groups. of course, there are many millions of good people who would never wish to do anyone any harm but there are many others who will support the views of powerful religious leaders (always men, by the way) and be directed to persecute other groups.
in the uk we have some religious schools which divide children from an early age. cant we leave children the world over to make their own minds up when old enough to decide what makes sense to them? by then they should realise that we are all just paople -some good, some not so...and aggression between us is perverse and childish.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 May 13 - 09:29 AM

C'mon, Steve. Pete hasn't abused anybody. He's always been very gentle and polite. He simply disagrees with scientists who are proponents of evolution (which may well be "every scientist who ever lived") - but that's not abuse. It's just disagreement. I tend to side with the scientists; but Pete has a right to an opinion, and he expresses his opinion humbly, quietly, and politely.

Well now, let's take a look a this. "He hasn't abused anybody"? Never abused "evolutionists" or "evangelical darwinists", huh? This man firmly sets his face against rational argument, reason and the honest hard work of scientists. He has his own story, eyes tight shut, and nothing else counts. All the indulgence and niceness he's encountered here has not changed his disreputable views one jot. Well I have a scientific background and I find that to be offensive and abusive. This man does no work to arrive at his prejudiced opinion bar listening to similarly-stupid people and taking a fatuously-literal view of the Bible. He sneers at every single piece of hard-won evidence ever gleaned by hard-working scientists that doesn't chime with his received "wisdom", yet has done nothing himself except for consorting with carefully-selected fellow-travellers on the lunatic fringe. He is not humble and his politeness is a very thin veneer (he isn't even polite enough to type reasonable English). Of course he is entitled to his prejudices. But he is not entitled to peddle them here and expect not to be shot down. Don't let him fool you. Soft faces, hard cases.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 May 13 - 09:37 AM

cant we leave children the world over to make their own minds up when old enough to decide what makes sense to them?

Religion can't afford to do this, achmelvich. Say you waited until your child was eighteen, then invited him to join an organisation as corrupt, undemocratic and authoritarian as any big religion (naturally, being an open-minded person, you would have to represent your faith of choice honestly to your kid). You wouldn't get many to sign up. The only way religion can hope to perpetuate itself is by signing up babies en masse. They all do it, don't they, and you won't find many adherents who see anything wrong with it. Amazing how you can adjust your morals to suit!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 21 May 13 - 11:19 AM

If every trace of any single religion were wiped out and nothing were passed on, it would never be created exactly that way again. There might be some other nonsense in its place, but not that exact nonsense. If all of science were wiped out, it would still be true and someone would find a way to figure it all out again.

― Penn Gilette, God, No!: Signs You May Already Be an Atheist and Other Magical Tales

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 May 13 - 11:33 AM

Bet Snailie wouldn't agree with that quote, the bit about science being true. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: TheSnail
Date: 21 May 13 - 01:05 PM

Quite right Stevie. Rather sloppy speaking. As far as I know, neither Blandiver nor Penn Jillette have any training as scientists so perhaps they can be excused. You, on the other hand, have recently said "I have a scientific background" so you should know better.(Although a while ago you said "I'm not speaking as a "scientist"". Confusing.)

I'm a bit busy at the moment. I'll get back to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,BrendanB
Date: 21 May 13 - 02:33 PM

Gosh, are you still here? I thought you would all have left ages ago. I only came in to turn the lights out.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 21 May 13 - 03:00 PM

As far as I know, neither Blandiver nor Penn Jillette have any training as scientists so perhaps they can be excused.

Excused what? And by whom? By the Sycophantic Mollusc (who once so meanly derided a fellow 'Catter for daring to use a perfectly pragmatic vernacularism on a folklore thread)? I think not somehow. Keep your joyless pedantry to yourself. The statement is clear enough in this context: Religions are a matter of making stuff up, whereas Science is a matter of finding things out. Religions are exclusive little boxed in worlds; Science is the very breath of the known universe.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 May 13 - 03:56 PM

I'm sure most of you are aware that a mile-wide tornado hit Oklahoma Monday and caused vast devastation. The headline on our local paper today, read, "Nature's Fury." I would think that such a headline would be offensive to all you literalists among us. After all, fundamentalists who believe in God, know that God causes such travesties to punish us for homosexuality and other such sins - and it is "worshipping a false god" to blame it on Nature. And literalist atheists know that scientific laws govern all this, and that it was caused by evil industrialists who cause global warming - and it is also evil to worship Nature as a god, just as it's evil and misleading to your children to acknowledge any sort of divinity.

I dunno. I kinda like the headline, even though it defies the literalist principles of both our atheists and our fundamentalists. I think that it's helpful for us to be mindful that there are things beyond us that are beyond our comprehension, that we may never be able to comprehend - and maybe we need to approach That Which Is Beyond us with awe and respect. And to my mind, That Which Is Beyond is also That Which Is Within. And even if "That" is not God, perhaps it is worthy of awe and respect. Maybe it's a primal thing, but what's wrong with primal?

This Science, of which our atheist friends speak so fondly, has brought us Chernobyl, and Bhopal, and a wonderful new thing called fracking. Science has brought us many wonderful innovations and understandings, but the hubris of Science sometimes prevents us from realizing that there is always something Beyond, always a further understanding.

Throughout all of time, humans have reached out to this ineffable Presence, of That Which Is Beyond and That Which Is Within. With varying degrees of success, they have used myth and ritual and symbols and poetry and music and contemplation to reach out to this Presence. Because humans mostly understand things in human terms, they have usually anthropomorphized this Presence, to the alarm of others. People referred to as mystics are often the ones who seem to get closest to forming union with this Presence, whatever It is. When people, believers and unbelievers alike, reach a point where they think they are able to name and define this Presence, they have failed. This is the point where our militant atheists and our militant fundamentalists converge - they believe they have conquered the Truth. The mystics and contemplatives also reach a point of convergence, whether they believe in God or not - understanding that That Which Is Beyond, remains beyond comprehension, only partly approachable through myth and ritual and symbols.

Maybe this Ineffable Beyond isn't God, and is simply the Ineffable Beyond. Does that really matter? I think what matters is that we know that there is always something beyond and within us that we cannot know and cannot control - but yet it is infinitely valuable to reach out to It, whatever It is.

If you want to know what I believe, that's about as close as I can come to explaining it. I will add, however, that I see That Which Is Beyond and That Which Is Within, as one and the same infinite Goodness.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 May 13 - 04:45 PM

This Science, of which our atheist friends speak so fondly, has brought us Chernobyl, and Bhopal, and a wonderful new thing called fracking.

I can't begin to tell you how so wrong you are here. Science brings us no such things. People bring us those things. People like you and me. Science is the pursuit of knowledge and understanding. You simply cannot blame the misuse of technology by imperfect people on science.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 May 13 - 04:54 PM

You, on the other hand, have recently said "I have a scientific background" so you should know better.(Although a while ago you said "I'm not speaking as a "scientist"". Confusing.

Confusing only to people who desperately want to be confused. I play the harmonica but I do not post about religion as a harmonica player. If I post about harmonica playing I do not post as an atheist. I am offended by pete when he attacks scientists partly because I have a scientific background myself. As a person with such aspirations for accuracy, by the way, perhaps you could attend to your sloppy use of quotation marks.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 May 13 - 04:59 PM

The headline on our local paper today, read, "Nature's Fury." I would think that such a headline would be offensive to all you literalists among us.

Well I for one see nothing wrong with those headlines. There's plenty of room for colour in this most colourful of languages. If you think we're all Spock-like automatons you've seriously misjudged us. Incidentally, the word you were looking for was rationalists, not literalists. We have nothing to be literal about.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 May 13 - 06:13 PM

""Nature's Fury." I would think that such a headline would be offensive to all you literalists among us.""

And, as far as I'm concerned, you would be correct Joe, since any competent scientist is aware that nature is fundamentally disinterested in the human race and in fact indifferent to its survival or otherwise.

That is the major problem with anthropomorphisation of natural physical forces.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 May 13 - 06:20 PM

""If you want to know what I believe, that's about as close as I can come to explaining it. I will add, however, that I see That Which Is Beyond and That Which Is Within, as one and the same infinite Goodness.""

Given that this view corresponds quite closely with my own, how explain that as part of it you seem to need the comfort of belonging to an organised church with, frankly, some very unlikeable characteristics (not, I emphasise, an attack but merely an observation), while to me that concept is both unnecessary and anathema?

Odd sort of world, isn't it?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 May 13 - 07:04 PM

Well, Don, for the most part, my experiences in the Catholic Church have been very positive. I go to church almost every Sunday and participate in various church-related activities several times a week. For the most part, I have a wonderful time and have contact with wonderful people.

The bad stuff is there, but not as prevalent and powerful as one might think. It's like the rest of life. There's bad stuff, and you can let it overwhelm you - or you can view it in context and proportion, and then it's not so bad. I know people in my community who are obsessed with crime, and they see crime wherever they go. I see the same things they see, but I think my view of the proportion of things is more realistic.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 22 May 13 - 06:24 AM

Because humans mostly understand things in human terms, they have usually anthropomorphized this Presence, to the alarm of others.

Our justifiable dread of nature is the root of all religion. Not only did we anthropomorphise it, we worshipped it in terms of its malevolence and mercy via a myriad little gods & mythologies through which we sought to understand & appease it. When our arrogance got the measure of all that, we lumped all our little gods together and made one great big one. No longer were our gods analogies of nature, rather nature was now an analogy of God, & not a very nice God either. Maybe this is because nature isn't very nice? Not very nice to us anyway - much less in itself, with everything eating everything else and the whole thing beset with darkness, suffering and death. Hardly the wonder we dare dream of an heavenly paradise presided over by an all-knowing all-loving God whose name on earth is nevertheless written in blood. Hardly the wonder too that the Gnostics saw this God as the devil, and this earth as hell...

The God we have made tells us a lot about ourselves; he ought to do, because we made Him in our own image - the ultimate metaphor of the human condition, enlightened by cognition and infested by nature. We adore Stephen Hawking because his wisdom transcends the tragedy of his bodily afflictions; he is a metaphor of hope in a realm of utter hopelessness. And yet somehow, we keep smiling through regardless, suitably deluded that all will come right in the end...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 22 May 13 - 05:00 PM

i can hardly be dissing just about every scientist that ever lived,since most of them have been creationist.i am not even dissing evolutionist scientists.not accepting their conclusions is not dissing them.steve and some others seem to think it fair game to diss creationists,ID,s and other darwin doubters.is this not called circular reasoning when the conclusion is presented as the argument?
i have presented some evidences that demonstrate the fact that darwinism is way short of explaning how its theory can work and the answer steve gives is evasion and attempted intimidation.
he has a science qualification and i respect that,but i am certain that he holds a rigid worldview at least as fervently as mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 May 13 - 06:08 PM

i can hardly be dissing just about every scientist that ever lived,since most of them have been creationist.

Ridiculous. Untrue, ridiculous, and you're a liar.

i am not even dissing evolutionist scientists.not accepting their conclusions is not dissing them.

Yes it is. You ignore honestly-garnered evidence and replace it with your own deluded received wisdom. You insult science and scientists by so doing. They work hard while you and your disgraceful ilk are content to be lazy, deceitful and prejudiced bastards.

steve and some others seem to think it fair game to diss creationists,ID,s and other darwin doubters.

We certainly do. Do you know why? Because they spout ignorance, they diss science and they ignore, nay, refute, rock-solid evidence. That is disreputable, dishonest and downright nonsensical.

i have presented some evidences that demonstrate the fact that darwinism is way short of explaning how its theory can work and the answer steve gives is evasion and attempted intimidation.

Oh really? Well dearie me! I must have missed it! Do apprise us again of this evidence of yours. I can't wait!

he has a science qualification and i respect that,but i am certain that he holds a rigid worldview at least as fervently as mine.

Your respect means nothing to me. It is nice to see you admit that you have a rigid world view (whatever that means - I doubt very much whether you know). As for mine, well I play tunes, dig my garden, go for bike rides, cook nice food, help out where I can in my community and so on. Your certainty about what you see as my "world view" hardly surprises me. You are the bloody expert, after all, when it comes to having certainty without a scrap of evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 May 13 - 12:00 AM

Shaw has a "scientific background?"

He hides it well enough. LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 May 13 - 12:25 AM

Now, Jack...

Hey, this is message #750, 3/4 of 1000. Do I get any credit for that?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans sailor seaman
Date: 23 May 13 - 08:29 AM

Aye and Sailor boy can't really hide being all at sea..

Who rattled his parrot's cage?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: TheSnail
Date: 23 May 13 - 10:03 AM

It is true that Steve's version of science is a trifle idiosyncratic and he presents it with an evangelical fervour which gives fuel to those who wish to set up an equivalence between science and religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Musket
Date: 23 May 13 - 01:39 PM

Perhaps truth doesn't leave a slime in its wake?

If Mr Shaw, who can speak for himself, sounds evangelical, I reckon it may be that he is fed up of people speaking of superstition as if it is a form of scientific discovery. If it were, you would find that each scientific discovery puts it further from reality and more into the metaphor that many more rational people are comfortable with, and on that basis call themselves religious.

But of course, that would discriminate against the slightly unhinged brethren, and so it goes....




(He is idiosyncratic in his ramblings though to be fair. His football leanings are weird and I have yet to find a harmonica player who is anywhere near the bar when it is his shout.)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: TheSnail
Date: 23 May 13 - 03:20 PM

Musket
I reckon it may be that he is fed up of people speaking of superstition as if it is a form of scientific discovery.

Which is why it is important to make it clear what science is, what lies at its core - the scientific method. Steve rejects this completely - " I have no time for your displays of philosophical musings over the meaning of science.". He thinks it is simply a matter of accumulating evidence but without the underlying philosophy, evidence is meaningless or can mean whatever you want it to.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 May 13 - 03:46 PM

I don't think any such thing. Off you go to join the ranks of the Joe-Jacko-pete school of serial misrepresentation.

Apropos of my scientific background, I have a degree in biological science from Imperial College. I taught biology in secondary schools for 25 years, much of that time as head of department, and became an assistant chief examiner (after ten years' distinguished service as an assistant examiner) in A Level biology for the University of London. I tell you this not in order to brag but in order to put this perpetual canard to rest once and for all. Snail, I have never given you "my version of science" (simply put, you're not worth it, internet stalker that you be) so why don't you just crawl away and do what those hermaphroditic gastropods do best (or, at least, would if they could).

Interesting that Jacko and Snail home in on li'l ol' me in spite of egregiously dreadful pete posts. Had I lacked my scientific background I'd probably have concluded that they were both closet religious fundamentalists. Instead, I'll just have to settle for the far more likely explanation that they're just bitter, jealous blokes with bees in their bonnets.

As for you, Musket, Sheffield Wednesday, I'm told, are so named in order for football aficionados to have another six days to follow Liverpool. As for harmonica players not buying their round, they're doing you a favour. If we ever try to carry more than a single pint at a time we always end up dribbling in the beer.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 May 13 - 03:49 PM

"Are you off to see Sheffield Wednesday?"

"Aye, lad, but I'm off to see Liverpool Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday an' Tuesday."

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 May 13 - 03:55 PM

On the evangelical note, I reiterate (Joe still hasn't retracted, I note). I don't start these threads. I find their contents sporadically interesting and I sometimes react to what other people say. Dictionaries out, chaps. See for yourselves whether my approach chimes with the accepted definition of evangelism. Then ask yourselves whether you're merely indulging in that time-honoured yet deluded practice of branding atheists as equivalent to believers, only opposite.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 May 13 - 04:23 PM

Sorry, Steve. I can't see reason for a retraction. Your approach still seems to me, to be as blindsided and doctrinaire and "evangelistic," as that of the evangelicals.

There is a middle, more philosophical path. That path sees the wider ramifications, the necessary part played by philosophy and the arts - in balance with science. Those who follow that path are wise enough not to bother arguing with those who take a literalist biblical view of the origins of things.

It's futile to argue with fundamentalists and to attempt to defeat them. Better to accept the fact that they're not going to change - and try to seek peace and common ground with them so we can accomplish what needs to be accomplished.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: TheSnail
Date: 23 May 13 - 05:45 PM

Steve, on the matter of your attitude to the philosophy of science, I quoted you directly. You have repeatedly banged on that "Evolution is true" because the overwhelming weight of evidence proves it. That is what I mean by your version of science. Where is the misrepresentation in that?

All that education and they never taught you about falsifiability? Very strange.

Yes Steve, I do have a bee in my bonnet. I get very agravated by people who present a false view of science, especially when their qualifications should led them to know better. pete and Jack are of no importance.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 May 13 - 07:43 PM

There is absolutely nothing wrong with saying that evolution is true. When I accused you of saying it wasn't, you got cross - remember? As I said, do start a thread on the philosophy of science. This thread isn't really about that, though, is it? Much as we'd all like to indulge your hobby-horse, the last thing we would want is for this thread to go all ungainly on us. Go on - start a new thread. I promise not to call you evangelical if you so do.

I'm sorry, Joe, but on a couple of occasions this past week you have misrepresented what I've said and I've pointed it out to you. I don't care whether you retract or not, but the matter stands. I do acknowledge your infinite patience with those of us on both sides who don't follow your middle ground, but I don't accept that we should ever try to seek accommodation with people like pete. You seriously misunderstand the motives of these people. It is quite important in the mudcat context that we don't allow people like him to hold sway (I feel the same about those horrid anti-Palestinians who post on those Israel threads). They are prejudiced, intolerant, ignorant and insulting to hard-working scientists. You see pete as a person basically of your ilk who can be accommodated. OK, but you are Christian, as is he, by accident of birth only. So let's imagine that pete is not an ignorant, fundamentalist Christian but an ignorant, fundamentalist Islamist (and I use that word deliberately to discriminate between them and the vast majority of ordinary Muslims). I can't imagine you exactly pleading for accommodation with him then, can you? But what's the difference, really? Isn't he as bad, or worse, than them? Isn't he just like those horrid Middle-ages Christians who burned people at the stake and waged war against peaceful Muslim nations? Or has his faux-gentle, smiling nature got you hoodwinked? The only difference between them and him is that he hasn't got a handle.

And every time you call someone like me who doesn't start any of these threads "evangelical" you just make a bloody fool of yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 May 13 - 08:01 PM

Steve, on the matter of your attitude to the philosophy of science, I quoted you directly. You have repeatedly banged on that "Evolution is true" because the overwhelming weight of evidence proves it.

Er, hang on a mo. I've just spotted this little beauty. I have posted God knows how many times to assert that science never "proves" anything. What I have said, and what you appear to be too lily-livered to agree with, is that the fact of evolution is supported by such a large body of evidence that it cannot be overturned. Not in every detail, of course. There is much still to be tweaked and many gaps of evidence to fill in. But that evolution happens cannot be gainsaid. Now you either agree with this or you don't (hello, pete). If you do, then you agree that evolution is true. Evolution is not science (we'll let the theory hang on to that mantle), it's a phenomenon that is as true as night following day is true. It is a truth that is beautifully explained by Darwin's theory (which, in itself, has been elegantly bolstered by all the evidence that has accumulated since the first edition of his book). Now, like the man who went to his doctor complaining that he couldn't pronounce his Fs and THs, I can't say fairer than that then. Nighty-night.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 May 13 - 08:13 PM

Four people in every ten in the US agree with pete that evolution is wrong. What does that say, do you suppose? You say that people like pete should be accommodated. I say that people like pete should be vigorously challenged and ridiculed (for their inability to accept evidence when it's staring them in the face) at every turn. People like pete want equal billing in schools for their nonsense. Don't you think that religious instruction in schools is nonsense enough without bolting creationism on to it? You say you want to find common ground with that kind of person. I'm intrigued to know how you see that happening. How will you prise open their eyes?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 May 13 - 12:21 PM

So, after over 750 posts, what have we learned?

We've learned that some of our illustrious atheists have an awful lot of time on their hands to waste.    So certainly for that time they are doing precisely zero social good.

On the other hand we have learned on these threads that Joe works about 40 hours a week in social causes:    "in a respite center for women in poverty, working with homeless people and working for a more humane and effective criminal justice system in California."


And many other Catholics are doing similar good work.

So now it's time for our wonderful atheists to tell us how long per week they spend working on causes for social good.   Also exactly what those causes are.

Until they do, they have no leg to stand on in criticizing Joe or his religion for anything.

I won't hold my breath.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 May 13 - 01:37 PM

We prefer to hide our lights under bushels, Ron.

Take heed that you do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise you have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. Therefore when you do your alms, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Truly I say to you, They have their reward. But when you do alms, let not your left hand know what your right hand does: That your alms may be in secret: and your Father which sees in secret himself shall reward you openly.
(Matthew 6: 2-4)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Blind DRunk in Blind River
Date: 24 May 13 - 02:19 PM

Militant pretty much flippin' ANYthing is a religion! Trust me. You only gotta be arownd the militant flippin' people a bit to know that. They never flippin' stop goin' on and on abowt their flippin' militant flippin' opinyon abowt it all, eh? And they figger they got the one vital flippin' truth that really flippin' matters in this word AND they know who the REAL flippin' ENEMY is too! And they are out to flippin' save or flippin' condemn anyone who sees it at all different from them.

I call that a flippin' religion. A real bad one too.

- Shane

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 24 May 13 - 05:56 PM

LOL! I dont think i have quoted the bible for a long time and blow me down ,steve does!
if steve wants to insist that evolution is true ,it is a meaningless statement if he cannot demonstrate it.
and whatever he does come up with - if anything - needs to be evidence that excludes an alternative explanation which might be offered from a creationist perpective.
as he claims i have not presented any evidence that supports creationism,yet conveniently forgets my recent challenges ,- i will move on.
mind you i would prefer to talk in terms of discussion rather than confrontation.
what would be your take on polystrate trees?the creationist position would be that the different strata were laid down in flood conditions quite quikly and therefore prevented decay.how do evolutionists account for the non decay over the supposed millenia between strata.
i have no doubt you have an answer and i would be interested to know the darwinist take on this.
maybe we can discuss one thing at a time rather than toss meaningless mantras around.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Pastor Bob McBride
Date: 24 May 13 - 07:50 PM

Shane, you are a drunken sinner. God gave you two eyes to see the the way, two legs to stand on,and two hands to pull yourself up out of the mud. Instead, you're too blind to see the truth in front of you, too lame to walk toward the light, and I am too polite to even mention what those two hands of yours are doing!

It's time that you forsake that raggle-taggle band of beer-soaked internet cynics that you wallow around with in the swill of self-abuse and atheism. Cast off the chains of iniquity which you have forged from sin, lust, and avarice, and walk into the waiting arms of our sweet redeemer.

You'd better do it soon, too. The next time you roll your truck in the the graveyard here at the Pickle Lake Bible Church of God, we'll have you up on charges. We know it was you. We've got a "security cam" in the graveyard now.

Pastor Robert "Blessed Bob" McBride
Author of "Drunk No More" and "God Saw What You Did"

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 May 13 - 08:03 PM

Heheh. This thread has suddenly morphed into humour mode. Just the thing for a Friday night.

I could get all seriarse and answer pete point by point, but, on this occasion (and I reserve the right to revert to type next time), I'll just say that he's talking utter incomprehensible shit, as ever. What was it about those trees again?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 May 13 - 08:46 PM

Steve Shaw says: We prefer to hide our lights under bushels, Ron.

Bullshit!!!

Which is why I said nothing for a long, long time. I do what I do, because I enjoy it - not because I'm looking for any praise, and not because I'm looking for any sort of repayment in this life or the next.

But somebody asked what I do, so I told them - and I was afraid some bastard would throw that "lights under bushels" shit at me.

So, Steve, take that and your accusations of my twisting your words (when I was very careful not to), and "shove it where the sun don't shine," as they say.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Pastor Bob McBride
Date: 24 May 13 - 09:34 PM

Steven Shaw, I have been reading this thread, and I see that you are a Christian who has fallen from grace. We here at the Pickle Lake Bible Church of God have welcomed many like you. You've been led away from the path of righteousness by earthly temptations. So many sinners convince themselves that they've found happiness and contentment by the light of day, only to lie awake all night, wrestling with their conscience. Is that the life you want to lead?

You say that you are a scientist. Did you know that Christ was a scientist too? I know this because there used to be a "Church of Christ, Scientist" over in Pickle Crow, but the minister had a run in with some bears and went back to Thunder Bay. This was years ago. Pickle Crow is a Ghost Town now, and the minister is selling Amway
Products and Burglar Alarms. It just goes to show you what can happen.

The Pickle Lake Bible Church of God welcomes people of all faiths. We have to, because there aren't any other churches up here. A lot of Catholics come up here and ask, "If this is a Church, where are
the nuns?" I say, "We have none." They never think it's funny. Then I have to say something to get them to come back, so I ask, "If there's only one God, why do you need more than one church?" This gets them thinking, and I give them the old "One-Two Punch" and say, "And we've got the only God in Northern Ontario."

This is not strictly true. The First Nations have totems poles full of gods. They fish with harpoons, too. Are you and that Richard Dawkins going to tell them they are delusional? Good luck with that.

Anyway, abandon your Godless ways and embrace the Redeemer today. You'll be glad you did!

Pastor Robert "Blessed Bob" McBride
Author of "Satan's Got Your Family Jewels"

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jeri
Date: 24 May 13 - 09:40 PM

I read earlier today that Pope Francis said it's more about the good people do. I think I like this Pope.

I think threads like this... maybe all the argument threads at Mudcat, but definitely this one that invites people to get all high-and-mighty, holier/more enlightened than thou really bring out the evil in folks.

I think everyone has an opinion. I think everyone believes things about which they can't KNOW. I think that people have to be some kind of nasty to belittle others, no matter what they believe. They can believe in God, but not Good, which makes me wonder why they bother because they're making a lie out of their belief. Anyone who continuously tries to tell others they're stupid because they believe differently and can't prove theirs is the only truth are showing they're the most stupid.

So... what I think is the true evil and stupidity in this thread, doesn't have anything to do with people not believing the right things.

It's that you think it's worth fighting about.

Very often in threads these day, I see the smartest people as the ones who refuse to get involved in the fuckwittery. Because whatever you roll around in sticks to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 May 13 - 09:48 PM

Pastor Bob, you're a breath of fresh air amongst all these atheistical folks. How big a donation do you want?

Hallelujah!

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans Ian
Date: 25 May 13 - 04:14 AM

There's a wonderful line from Sir Henry at Rawlinson End, also in Rhinocratic Oaths and other Bonzo genius.

"That'll fix it thought Ron, but he was wrong."

Once I finished laughing at Ron's post above I recalled the line. ..

Sanctimonious prat. I don't know or wish to know how Joe and his mind work but I doubt he would act any differently if he didn't have faith. I reckon that to say you can only do good if it satisfies a voice in your head is an insult to anybody, rational or otherwise, who cares about their fellow man.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 25 May 13 - 06:23 AM

Well, if nothing else this thread has shown up the foul mouthed lout Musket for the fraud he undoubtedly is.He even outpaces salty imposter Seaman Staynes.

It would be easy for me to answer you back in kind Brother Musket, but I am now a born again christian who has just returned from a religouse retreat. Being in a state of grace I can now forgive you.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 25 May 13 - 06:38 AM

it would be nice to think you were not mocking ?!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 25 May 13 - 07:20 AM

Bless you Brother Pete...I seldom mock.

To err is human; to forgive devine..............

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans body
Date: 25 May 13 - 08:58 AM

And to copy and paste from another thread is lazy.

Really pete? You would like to think he or she isn't mocking? Not very "christian" of you if you don't mind me saying.   That's one reason why I am not qualified to be Christian. I can't quite get the hang of hypocrisy or selective sanctimony.

I suppose concerned will have to put up with lazy cutting and pasting from me too.

Fuck off. There's a good chap.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 25 May 13 - 10:19 AM

Not only a foul mouthed lout.. but a foul mouthed unoriginal oaf as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans body
Date: 25 May 13 - 03:41 PM

Lazy and stupid. That's me.

Better than hiding behind a dubious past eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 May 13 - 08:31 PM

Steve Shaw says: We prefer to hide our lights under bushels, Ron

Bullshit!!!

Which is why I said nothing for a long, long time. I do what I do, because I enjoy it - not because I'm looking for any praise, and not because I'm looking for any sort of repayment in this life or the next.

But somebody asked what I do, so I told them - and I was afraid some bastard would throw that "lights under bushels" shit at me.

So, Steve, take that and your accusations of my twisting your words (when I was very careful not to), and "shove it where the sun don't shine," as they say.

-Joe Offer-

Very defensive, Joe. Call it bullshit but by so doing you're calling your Lord a bullshitter. What he said was what I said. So somebody asked you what you did so you told 'em. Well, you didn't have to, but you did, loud, clear - and at length. The light-under-bushels, as well you know, is not shit. It is a very well-founded notion, preaching as it does humility. You can make your point without giving out your credentials, simultaneously losing dignity as you do it. I had to do that on another thread when some lunatic questioned my science credentials, so I'm not innocent, but, unlike you it seems, at least I know what I did. And please don't forget, in your ire, that my post was a response primarily to Ron's usual stupidity. As they say, keep calm and carry on. Hope this helps.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,concerend
Date: 25 May 13 - 09:50 PM

Lazy and stupid is right

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 25 May 13 - 10:37 PM

Before you go any further, Steve, I suggest you ask Clinton Hammond, Martin Gibson, or The Shambles about what it's like at the end of the path you're treading.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 May 13 - 03:09 AM

Steve, you don't play by the rules of civil discussion. You're really good at the "cheap shot," but you're lacking in substance.
I have avoided making a statement about what my faith is and what it means to me, because I knew that would be making myself vulnerable to just the shit that you threw at me. Since I respect Frank and he asked what it is that I do believe, I took the risk of exposing myself to attack and told him in this statement: (click). It was about as honest and balanced a statement of what is important to me, as I could come up with. And, since you are apparently a man of negligible integrity, you took advantage of the risk I took. I spoke from the heart, but you didn't give a shit about that. Guess I don't have much to say to you then.

For those of you who don't know what Stim is referring to, and to prevent the spread of innuendo, let me tell you that Clinton Hammond, and Martin Gibson got "put on the bench" for a week for serious personal attacks on the physical handicaps of particular Mudcatters. They got miffed, and didn't come back...except to peek in every once in a while. Shambles got mad about being required to restrict himself to one thread at a time on his chosen subject, so he left...and came back, and then quietly disappeared. [Note added later: this paragraph was meant to dispel any hints of retribution that might have been perceived in Stim's message. -Joe-]

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 May 13 - 05:59 AM

I responded to a stupid post from Ron. That's the man you should be attacking for lionising you embarrassingly at what he apparently sees as the expense of us atheists. And, quite frankly, if someone here asked me to go through my good works I'd consider it infra dig to respond. That makes me different to you. For what it's worth, I have a perfectly adequate picture of you in my mind already and I'm sure it's not a lot different from anyone else's picture of you. And I must say that I don't appreciate these multilateral veiled threats of retribution for my perceived lèse-majesté. Now those really are cheap shots. You can disagree calmly, you know.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 26 May 13 - 08:57 AM

avoiding the diversions of abuse,cheap shots and their victims i,m still interested in getting steve to defend his "evolution is true" mantra by addressing specific points.he has dodged yet another ,as though he could not work out what i was asking.
i suppose in fairness ,it may be not part of his area of expertise so we will try something else.
the DNA information requires a complex decoding machine,the ribosome,but the instructions to build the ribosomes are on the DNA .and decoding requires energy from the ATP-synthase motors,built from instructions in the DNA decoded by ribosomes..
all this sounds very complicated but it looks to me that an evolutionary explanation is excluded by a vicious circle.
i would venture that such complexity speaks of a designer rather than blind chance.
maybe steve can tell us how it could come about darwinally?
failing that i suggest that he cease from claiming that there is no evidence for a designer and maker of all .
he will probably fall back on his assurances that "science" will soon reveal the answers,but with each evasion those claims sound more and more hollow.
i reckon science is already suggesting the answer but steve and the other antitheists are not listening.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 May 13 - 12:37 PM

the DNA information requires a complex decoding machine,the ribosome,but the instructions to build the ribosomes are on the DNA .and decoding requires energy from the ATP-synthase motors,built from instructions in the DNA decoded by ribosomes.

Heheh. This is pete's question. But pete doesn't understand his own question, does he? This stand-out literate sentence (relatively) is a copy-paste job from somewhere or other. I'll address it when pete asks the question again, in pete-ese English this time, showing that he understands what he's supposed to be asking. Tell us what you mean by "a decoding machine", pete! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST
Date: 26 May 13 - 04:53 PM

That condescending schoolmaster act went out with "The Browning Version", Steve. Give it a rest.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 May 13 - 05:54 PM

Condescending, oh anonymous guest?? Do you know, chaps, I find it utterly amazing that anyone can take sides with the likes of pete (who consistently displays utter, wilful ignorance of science) and Ron (who displays utter, wilful ignorance full stop). Tell me, Mr or Mrs Anonymous: how else would you deal with pig-ignorance? Prejudice? Wilful stupidity? I await your tips and wrinkles...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 26 May 13 - 07:52 PM

Sorry, Steve. That was me. I am not taking sides with either. I am telling you that you're not in the classroom dealing with unruly schoolboys and that your approach is old and tired. Further more, when you carry on like this, I don't think you show any signs that you know any more about anything than they do, (though I know that you do) Responding in kind really doesn't help your case.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 May 13 - 08:15 PM

Well I must say I'm amazed that the guest was you. Or maybe not, as you were trying not too long ago, as I recall, to assume the role of Mudcat management's lackey, what with your threats as to what might happen to me. You're a nice bloke and all that but I'm really struggling with you here. All you ever seem to do is make rather empty, meaningless and mercifully brief comments. I look forward to a somewhat more substantial contribution that actually gives your considered and detailed opinion about something (anything will do). I invite anyone reading this to trawl back through your recent posts to see if they can be any more successful than me in finding something of note.

What continues to amaze me about this thread (apart from the silence regarding the sheer idiocy of pete and Ron, who get away with blue murder here) is that, when an atheist such as meself invokes the word of the Lord, for example about keeping quiet and humble about one's good deeds (and I do admire many, though not all, of the alleged sayings of Jesus), it can cause such a sting. The actual choice of what went in the Bible was selective enough as it is, but now it seems that its adherents are free to ignore the bits that are included that they themselves find inconvenient. Complicated folks, these Christians! Selectively ignoring papal edicts on contraception, etc., is one thing, but eschewing the word of the Lord himself... scary!!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 May 13 - 08:46 PM

i,m still interested in getting steve to defend his "evolution is true" mantra

Well you see, pete, in spite of Snail's protestations (to which I suspect you've been attaching far too much credence), "evolution is true" is not a mantra. It is a statement of the self-evident. If I say that Mars Bars are sweet, that is not a mantra. It is a self-evident truth that could be denied only by a deluded idiot with no taste buds. Let's suppose that the deluded taste bud-free idiot kept coming on here denying that Mars Bars were sweet, and li'l ol' me was stupid enough to keep posting that Mars Bars were, in fact, sweet. The fact that I had kept on repeating that Mars Bars are sweet would not have turned "Mars Bars are sweet" from a truism into a mantra. It's just me being a parrot because some bloody idiot couldn't see truth even if it reared up and bit him on the bollocks.

Now, pete, you are a man, as we all know, who wouldn't see truth even if it reared up and bit you on the bollocks. The truth of evolution is all around you, but you don't see it because you are in with a bunch of complete clods who have told you that it isn't true. Now I know that your delusion is not your own original idea, because every single time you post about what you think is the science of evolution you get it so dismally wrong that it's clear you haven't a clue what you're talking about. Of course, Snail is going to see this any minute now and probably start with his philosophising again, so, for his benefit and yours, here it is in a nutshell: evolution definitely happens. It cannot be denied, as the evidence for it is so overwhelming. That is not to say that certain aspects of this giant subject can't be modified or added to. But evolution is a natural phenomenon, not science, just as the sweetness of a Mars Bar is. The explanation of how evolution takes place is called the theory of evolution by means of natural selection. That's where the science is, all the evidence, and it's beautiful and elegant and everything discovered since Darwin has added to the story. The science is our way of explaining a phenomenon that is not science, but which is there in nature and always was and which is true. To explain why a Mars Bar is sweet would involve science. We could come up with a theory, supported by lots of evidence to do with the solubility of sucrose and the way it interacts with taste buds and the part of the nervous system linking taste buds to the brain. We could argue about the exact mechanisms involved and do more experiments. But none of that would ever lead to the denial that a Mars Bar is sweet. It is true that a Mars Bar is sweet and only a fool would try to deny it. Evolution is all around you, it's true, and you are a fool because you try to deny it. I should really be in bed. Hope this helps.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 27 May 13 - 12:25 PM

I am actually very sorry for those two remarks, Steve--they were intended to be droll rejoinders, and they came off as being mean. I am sure you understand how that sort of thing can happen...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 27 May 13 - 12:36 PM

For what it's worth, I like this thought, "The science is our way of explaining a phenomenon that is not science, but which is there in nature and always was and which is true." Given that, we could have a real whiz-bang knock-out drag out fight about the idea of Mars Bars being sweet--

Salient points for me would be:

1)"Sweetness" can be considered a qualitative perception, making it subjective, or, more simply, dependent on the user's experience, whereas the amount of the sweetener that the Mars Bar contained it is quantifiable,making it an objective fact.

2) Mars Bars have a high amount of sweetner, and for many people, high levels of sweetner have a paradoxical effect, that is to say, they are perceived as unpleasant.

3) Mars Bars have a variety of other ingredients, additives, and preservatives, which a number of sensitive individuals perceive as unpleasant and adverse tastes, and which may be the dominant taste that they percieve when they taste a Mars Bar

4) Mars Bars, at least in the US, are generally made with High Fructose Corn Syrup, and not sucrose (for political reasons, sucrose has a high import tariff, and is substantially more expensive.


Points 2 and 3 are not simply rhetorical devices--I've had a lot of interaction with kids who have sensory differences, and it isn't uncommon to have them get very upset about "bad tastes" in candy, cakes, and other treats.


Anyway, this insight into my thought processes should give you a sense as to why I try to keep my comments brief;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 May 13 - 12:37 PM

I certainly do! Cheers.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 May 13 - 12:38 PM

Oops, we crossed there.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 May 13 - 12:57 PM

Well, it would be really hard to pick out a simple enough self-evident case to compare with evolution, and I thought someone might pick me up on the Mars Bar technicalities. Fair enough, but I'm sure you see the spirit of what I was trying to say. I suppose I could have picked just an additive-free sugar cube. The point is, the natural phenomena we see around us (the sun, the stars, the wildlife, evolution in action) are not the science. Potassium catching fire in a bowl of water is not science. The science comes in the process of us humans getting our heads round those things, explaining them. We have certain protocols, for example we need evidence that can be replicated and checked over. We are allowed to extrapolate and even guess, but a science process involving proper investigation must follow such speculative activity, otherwise it ain't science. We can't allow impossible non-explanations in, God for example, and people who shove God into science to "explain" things are ignoramuses and charlatans (anyone who argues for irreducible complexity, for example, or who says idiotic things like "I believe in evolution but God must have kicked it off"). But say what you like as long as we only call stuff science that is truly science. The very best we get in science is a theory to explain something. A theory has lots of evidence to back it up. It don't get better in science than theories. We don't do proofs. When eejits say that "evolution is only a theory" they are not using "theory" in its scientific sense, that of a comprehensive explanation of phenomena. They don't get it but they say it anyway, which makes them eejits. Like pete.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 27 May 13 - 02:25 PM

I do get the spirit of what you were trying to say. To use a metaphor you probably aren't that comfortable with, you're preaching to the choir here. Which is to say that I don't have a problem with anything that you said in that 12:57pm post at all.

One of my empty, meaningless and mercifully brief comments is, "Creationism is just an excuse to sleep through Biology Class."

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 27 May 13 - 05:38 PM

yet another evasion steve.
just a long winded ,not to mention foulmouthed, reaffirmation of fact free assertions.
eating confectionary is an experiment i can do in the present.seeing evolutionism in the present is not an option because...well,it [supposedly] happened in the past.
mind you ,i seem to remember someone,sometime did an experiment with something like bacteria which have a fast reproducing life and so were ideal to study to see what they might change into over the years.sorry i dont have details to hand but i dont seem to remember any step on the microbes to microbiologists pathway!
surely you must have something that demonstrates evolutionary development beyond the limits of natural selection if your "evolution is true " statement is true!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 May 13 - 06:30 PM

seeing evolutionism in the present is not an option because...well,it [supposedly] happened in the past.

Stick to creationist shite, pete. This statement alone demonstrates that you haven't a clue about evolution or anything else. Not even Mars Bars, probably.

sorry i dont have details to hand

Well shut up about it then. When I come on here to post about science I have details to hand. I accused you a day or two ago of being a lazy bugger and you've just confirmed it. You are content to rely on received wisdom from near-lunatics (I think I may be being kind). Try doing some work for yourself for a change. "Sorry i dont have details to hand" my arse. Have you no dignity at all?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 May 13 - 06:36 PM

You could well be right, Stim. The only thing is that the choir does not appear to include Jacko, pete and Joe. Or Ron. Possibly not even that bitter fellow Snail, in spite of his rather solemn scientific tiptoeing. But, as I said, all I do is react to other people's posts. Is it fun? Er...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 27 May 13 - 09:21 PM

Well, Steve, maybe not Pete, but others are on board. They're just sitting on the other side where you can't see them. Pete is another story.

Sorry, Pete, I hate to say this, but you don't even have it together enough to express the Creationist/Intelligent Design questions about evolution clearly. Of course, there are good and coherent responses to them...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans body
Date: 28 May 13 - 01:28 AM

pete says you cannot observe evolution as it is in the past.

Well, you are in the present and have not evolved beyond medieval superstition whilst the growing UK population has.

Evolution in action baby!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 May 13 - 05:37 AM

pete sez you can't see evolution because it's in the past. But every piece of information that ever swelled human knowledge was, in some sense, in the past. If I'd made some new observation of the flower structure of an orchid last Sunday, it's in the past. The evidence for evolution includes fossil lineages leading us to common ancestry, of physiological and biochemical links, radio-isotope dating, comparative anatomy and development and our ever-burgeoning understanding of how genetics works. In every case we stand on the shoulders of giants. In many cases, dead ones. From the past. Now pete can't see evolution because he thinks it's in the past. Yet he'll hang on every word of chaps of tendentious intent who lived 2000 years ago. The Famous Four of those chaps told us all about Jesus, yet they were about as close to Jesus in time as I am to Queen Victoria. They are in the remote past, yet pete believes their every word. Jesus was in their remote past (demonstrated by howling inconsistencies in their hand-me-down accounts of him). How much more "past" can you get? So wassup, pete?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 May 13 - 06:15 AM

And it is of course absurd to suggest that any proponent of evolution could imagine, as pete seems to think they might, that the evolutionary process is now complete. Things are evolving all the time, pete my duck: only yesterday there was a report in The Times of some pest that has evolved a strain resistant to all the pesticides thus far designed in an attempt to eradicate it. "Evolution" isn't a historical event: it is a constantly ongoing process. Can pete really not get that?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 May 13 - 07:14 AM

Don't ask, Michael, don't ask...   :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 28 May 13 - 07:17 AM

This is where my problem starts to emerge--as long as you're trying to explain stuff to Pete, I'm good, but the editorial comments wear thin.

Oddly enough, I think Pete is trying to engage to the degree that he can--which, when it comes down to it, is what we're all trying to do.

Good example, M, can you find a link?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 May 13 - 07:29 AM

Regret couldn't put hand on that precise report, Stim ~~ fear gone to great recyclers in the sky. But I found by googling this similar recent report

http://www.nature.com/srep/2013/130314/srep01456/full/srep01456.html

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 May 13 - 07:31 AM

... in headline of which, pete, note the word "evolving"...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 28 May 13 - 03:57 PM

well, the pesticide resistance is at least an argument as opposed to steve and ians assertions and attempts at belittling.
i have come across this before and i dont have time to look up stuff right now but a few interim observations.
1 the headline might say it is evolution but there is unlikely be anything suggesting any change other than an advantageous one to that organism.
2 this is probably more correctly natural selection in operation.
something switched off in the genes maybe that rendered a survival advantage probably.
3   assuming that to be the case it is devolution, not evolution [at least in the GTE understanding .evolutionists often equivocate natural selection with the GTE ],though i accept that this is not always deliberate deception.
thanks anyway for a specific argument.maybe you would like to tackle some of mine that steve dodged

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 May 13 - 05:20 PM

'change ... advantageous to that organism.
this is probably more correctly natural selection in operation.'
.,,.
But Pete ~~ that is what 'evolution' means.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 28 May 13 - 06:58 PM

if that is what evolution is,i guess that makes me an evolutionist!
it would also make edward blythe,the creationist who wrote about natural selection before darwin did, an evolutionist also.
the difference between them was that the former wrote from what he observed,but darwin extrapolated from that to what was unobservable.
pete.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 May 13 - 07:18 PM

The ever-patient Michael is being quite nice to you, pete, so, in good cop-bad cop tradition, let's say, once again, that every post you post betrays the lamentable fact that you haven't a clue what you're talking about. I'd really love to ask you what you think it is I'm supposed to have evaded, but I just know I won't get a sensible reply.

And here we go again: i have come across this before and i dont have time to look up stuff right now

Well why's that, pete? What are you doing that's so important that it forces you, time and time again, to post here totally unprepared? Or are you, as I think you are, a lazy bugger who only deals in received wisdom from near-lunatics?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 29 May 13 - 04:55 AM

i was on my way out to an open mic where i done 3 songs [all of which you would detest] and they went down well.thankyou for your interest.
i did look up articles afterward and i dont have much more to add.
what i have already said is much more specific than any of your wordy,generalization assertions.i am expecting to be away rest of week.next time i log on i will see if anything worth discussing has been posted.see yer later - maybe!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 May 13 - 07:52 AM

It might be specific, but it still doesn't make sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 May 13 - 12:15 AM

"lights under bushels".      Nice try, but no cigar.    Your record does not, shall we say, support this assertion.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans body
Date: 30 May 13 - 03:32 AM

I'm still not sure if the issue in these interesting but ultimately dead threads is atheism or a perceived lack of respect for religions that seem to need respect in order to survive.

It was brought home to me the other week in Leeds. I was walking down The Headrow near The Town Hall and came to a road junction. There was a young man in a white shirt and Paisley tie, very respectable looking, shouting the love of God as the only salvation and handing out leaflets. I got one thrust in my hand and before binning it noticed it wasn't some loony small cult but a big one, the leaflets were printed by the diocese.

Fair enough.

In front of me was a small elderly lady and what turned out to be her daughter. The man thrust a leaflet at her and she tried not to take it but rather than it fall on the floor she took it and as she put it in the convenient bin I used, turned to her daughter and said " Chuffing GodBotherers. Council should do something about them." Her daughter said that wasn't a Christian attitude. She said that she hoped she had raised her to know better than that. Making idiots look normal doesn't help them.

A good example of the difference between having a stance and seeing a stance as irrelevant to them.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: TheSnail
Date: 30 May 13 - 09:13 AM

Really teribly busy so can't spend much time on this. Just want to get things straight. Steve, are you saying in your post of 26 May 13 - 08:46 PM that Evolution is a natural phenomenon that CAN be described as TRUE whereas Darwin's Theory of Evolution is a scientific theory and therefore CANNOT ve described as TRUE?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 May 13 - 11:51 AM

""i was on my way out to an open mic where i done 3 songs [all of which you would detest]""

So let me guess!

"Too Much Monkey Business" and a couple of other Creationist, or anti evolution, songs?

There you have it folks!

Is there anybody out there who can swear, hand on heart, that he or she has EVER heard an Atheist sing even one song claiming that God doesn't exist, let alone three?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 May 13 - 11:53 AM

Militant Atheism myth thoroughly busted!!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 May 13 - 11:56 PM

>>'change ... advantageous to that organism.
this is probably more correctly natural selection in operation.'
.,,.
But Pete ~~ that is what 'evolution' means.<<

M that is not what I learned in science class.

"Natural selection" is one mechanism by which evolution occurs.

It certainly seems to me that a certain percentage of bugs had resistance to the chemicals and given the lack of food competition once their non-resistant peers died the quickly bread to fill the gap.

I don't agree with pete's implied point that every creature on earth was created with all its potential for change built in. But I have to concede that his evaluation of the ddt resistant insects is correct. On the other hand I think the idea of "devolution" is nonsense. Adaptation to environmental change is adaptation to environmental change, nothing more nothing less.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 31 May 13 - 12:09 AM

Nope. Still nothing of substance here. The bigots think they won the battle - those "militant atheists" are still doing of good job of proving the original thesis of this thread: that some militant atheists are just as obnoxious and intolerant as some fundamentalist "believers."

And both sides are completely unable to perceive a middle path, a path that is open to a variety of perspectives and able to benefit from all of them.

These fundamentalist believers and unbelievers alike, make interesting bedfellows. Both sides are obsessed with "truth" - and quite unaware of reality.

As for me, I believe that tolerance and good manners can accomplish a lot more.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 May 13 - 05:38 AM

How odd that you advocate tolerance and good manners, yet in the same post you imply that people you've never met (presumably, including some people who post here) who disagree with you are bigots, obsessed with "truth" and unaware of reality.

It would also appear that the irony of your accusing us of being unaware of reality is lost on you. In order to believe in God you have to suspend belief in the laws of nature and ignore a mass of evidence. So who's being "unreal"?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 31 May 13 - 06:02 AM

And where would I fit into that assessment Joe?

I have faith without religion, and yet, I find myself more at home with the non believers than with the religious.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 May 13 - 07:04 AM

Well, Snail, a theory is science's best shot at providing a comprehensive explanation of a natural phenomenon. As I've said a million times, you can argue with the details of the theory, tweak them, add to them and even ditch some of them as the quest for knowledge continues. What you can't do (unless you're demented) is argue that evolution does not take place. Evolution is not the theory. Evolution is not the science. Evolution was happening billions of years before that wonderful human activity called science started to happen. There was no-one around to theorise about it, gather evidence, confirm it or deny it. Evolution is a natural phenomenon that definitely takes place. It is true that evolution takes place. If you say that I can't say that, you're saying that evolution does not, or may not, happen. That's how I understand the everyday use of the word "true". Quibble away.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: TheSnail
Date: 31 May 13 - 07:16 AM

Any chance of a straight answer to my question, Steve? Are you saying that Darwin's Theory of Evolution is a scientific theory and therefore CANNOT be described as TRUE?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 May 13 - 07:35 AM

Beware of people asking for straight answers when they're merely trying to set traps. I think what I've said is clear enough now, thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: TheSnail
Date: 31 May 13 - 08:54 AM

Ah well, let's not waste time.

A few weeks ago, in this very thread 08 May 13 - 03:04 PM you said -

We don't know that the theory of evolution is true because Darwin said so. We know it's true because he gave us real evidence to chew over, things we can go out and find for ourselves (I do it every day) and everything that's been explored in that particular field since Darwin has confirmed the theory.

so you do seem to be saying the Theory of Evolution is true.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 May 13 - 08:58 AM

Bad proofreading I'm afraid. What I think is what I've just said.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: TheSnail
Date: 31 May 13 - 10:49 AM

Quite a fundamental error and just one example of many. I drew attention to it when you first said it and you didn't take the opportunity to correct yourself then.

What I think is what I've just said.

You just can't bring yourself to say that Darwin's Theory of Evolution is a scientific theory and therefore CANNOT be described as TRUE can you?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 31 May 13 - 11:24 AM

It can be described as true as much as any observable process, eg the solar system, can be described as true. To call it a mere theory which cannot be called true is mere idle solipsism.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 May 13 - 11:24 AM

Why would you want me to?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 May 13 - 06:19 PM

Strictly speaking, Michael, a theory sets out to be as comprehensive an explanation as possible of a given phenomenon. Whilst there is no doubt that evolution (as a natural phenomenon, which exists in spite of science) is true, I admit that it's a bit harder to say that the theory is true. Many aspects of the evidence supporting the theory are incontrovertible. In fact, evidence itself can comprise natural phenomena: this fossil of the femur of Eohippus exists. It is a natural phenomenon. It existed way before science ever did. You can't argue with its existence (and you can't argue with its age either, within limits, as the science of radio-isotope dating is pretty solid). Much of the evidence supporting evolution consists of incontrovertible phenomena. Whether it all adds up to a theory (an explanation, remember) that is true is a moot point. A theory can be tweaked or added to, and some of its tenets may one day be trashed. My point, totally lost on Snail, is that you're a fool if you argue against the truth of evolution. In order to do that you have to reject a vast amount of good, honest evidence. Worse, in putting forward your "alternative", you have to ignore good evidence and interpose utterly unsupportable notions of your own. It's just like belief in God. You have to deny reality and subscribe to utterly evidence-free concepts.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,concerend
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 06:56 AM

What really concerns me is you people actually have the vote............very scary!!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 07:06 AM

So I was right, Steve can't bring himself to say that Darwin's Theory of Evolution is a scientific theory and therefore CANNOT be described as TRUE. Strange because this would be a totally unremarkable statement from anyone else with a scientific background. After passionaately emphasiszing the difference between evolution and the theory of evolution, you now seem to be blurring the boundaries again.

My point, totally lost on Snail, is that you're a fool if you argue against the truth of evolution.
Apart from the fact that I am reluctant to dismiss people I disagree with as fools, I quite agree. I have never tried to argue against the truth of evolution. Neither have I tried to argue against the truth of the theory of evolution, I have merely said that it is not an applicable term.

I'm not sure who the rest of that post is aimed at. Whose "alternative" to what?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 07:11 AM

Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwnnnn!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 07:39 AM

Well, concerened, I can echo that.

All very confusing, Snail, but that's the bloody interwebbie thingie for you. I'll keep it tighter when I write my life story. And that's the truth. In theory.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 08:40 AM

Well, one can echo it indeed; but I have a particular contempt for people who log on to a site that they know will be uninteresting to them, purely for the purpose of self-righteously telling us all so as if we gave a pigsbum for what the likes of concerened think. Something inenarrably masochistic about it, it always seems to me. I can give you a link to a good BDSM forum, concerened, if that is where your fancy lies.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 09:42 AM

Nobody could ever accuse Steve of being evasive could they?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 11:20 AM

""What really concerns me is you people actually have the vote............very scary!!""

Even more scary is the concept of you writing, without a brain.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 05:32 PM

Page 17, and this is pretty clearly not getting anywhere...

"Time gentlemen please"

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 08:09 PM

Well I like that!! Self Righteouse? But i'snt it what you lot are? But why do you constantly contradict yerselves?, if you dont give a pigs bum, as you so elegantly say, why do you keep comming back at me with your very feeble comments?

Also, M theGM,it does beg the question is how you would have the address of a BDSM forum so convieniently to hand? SKellingtons in cupboards spring to the lips.

Don(Wyziwg)t your remark is possibly the most stupid (even for you)that i have read on this site;

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Jun 13 - 12:15 AM

Nothing in the cupboard at all, ☠☠☠ or otherwise, concie-boy. My personal predilections are of course no concern* of yours, but I have never made any secret that I had an interest [personal or otherwise is no biz of yours or anyone else's except me and my 'friends'] at one time in such topics. At my present age, 81, such considerations are pretty well entirely in the past, alas!.

~M~

*'concern'. adventitious. teeheehee ☺〠☺

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Jun 13 - 12:18 AM

BTW concy ~~ please check what 'beg the question' really means, & observe what an ignorant solecism it is to use it, as you did, to mean 'raises the question'!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Jun 13 - 12:20 AM

... or you might find yourself with a smacked bottom

ɷɷɷɷɷɷ

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jun 13 - 06:37 AM

Is that a general offer?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Jun 13 - 08:05 AM

To find the answer to that, Hen, you will need to delve deeply into the virtual cupboard which old concie-face attributes to me...

~the~

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Jun 13 - 03:14 PM

""Don(Wyziwg)t your remark is possibly the most stupid (even for you)that i have read on this site;""

Ignoring your lack of qualification to decide what is stupid, I simply point out that my comment is easily eclipsed for stupidity by every post from you since you unfortunately happened on this site.

Since you obviously have nothing relevant to contribute, I suggest you ask your fifth grade teacher how the word "concerned" should be spelt, and do try to get to grips with "Wyziwyg", therre's a dear!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Jun 13 - 05:39 PM

I suggest you ask your fifth grade teacher how the word "concerned" should be spelt, and do try to get to grips with "Wyziwyg", therre's a dear!
.,,.,.

Oops, Don ~~ they had it in for you in Bastards' HQ that time, right enuff ~~~

❧☺〠☺❦
LoL

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jun 13 - 05:55 PM

Don was simply rolling his arse. Do keep up, The.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Jun 13 - 01:53 AM

Oh? ~~ in which connection then, see our last exchange, Hen ---

☝☝☝
ɷɷɷ

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Jun 13 - 02:19 AM

Hi, Don -

Most of the time, I also feel more comfortable with nonbelievers, than I feel with people who profess a religion. But lately, there has arisen a group of doctrinaire nonebelievers who are intent on attacking those of us who profess any sort of belief, no matter what it is. They see belief as something evil. I have seen earnest expressions of hope from Mudcatters who await the day when the last vestige of religion will be stamped out and the world will be truly enlightened. Most of the time, they class all believers as blindly obedient sheep, no matter who we are and what we think. That sort of generalization is just not a fair assessment.

In general, the polite and tolerant thing to do is to listen to the perspectives of others and take them for what they are worth - not feeling any obligation to agree or disagree, but recognizing that each person's perspective may have some value. What I find distressing is when people assume what the other person's opinion is, and then attack it. So, basically, the people I disdain are those who attack me for believing, even when they have no idea what it is that I do believe. The rules of civil discussion require that we listen to what others have to say, and then respond to that and that alone, not to what we assume they think because of some label we have imposed upon them.


With you, I'd get along just grand.




So, Snail, what is it that you think is the correct thing to say about the theory of evolution, if we can't say it's "true"? Heck, even Pope John Paul II said that evolution is "more than just a theory," so it seems that Steve Shaw is in pretty good company. As for me, I'd say that the Theory of Evolution is "the closest we've come to the facts so far." I do think there's room for deeper understanding, but I believe we're on the right track.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jun 13 - 06:20 AM

The facts of evolution are all around us in the fields, the gardens and the trees. The facts were there a long time before we got wise enough to start contemplating them. The theory is our attempt to explain those facts and identify in them a recognisable process. The truth lies in the self-evident nature of that process, but the developing theory will probably never reach an end.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: TheSnail
Date: 03 Jun 13 - 02:19 PM

Joe Offer
So, Snail, what is it that you think is the correct thing to say about the theory of evolution, if we can't say it's "true"?

The theory of evolution is a scientific theory and is, therefore, subject to all the limitations that that implies. In particular, it cannot be said to be true. This is not my idea; it is basic scientific orthodoxy. I have quoted Professors Einstein ad Dawkins in support. Have a look here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory

Here are some highlights -

It makes falsifiable predictions with consistent accuracy across a broad area of scientific inquiry (such as mechanics).

A theory which is not refutable by any conceivable event is non-scientific. Irrefutability is not a virtue of a theory (as people often think) but a vice.

And from Stephen Hawking - "A theory is a good theory if it satisfies two requirements: It must accurately describe a large class of observations on the basis of a model that contains only a few arbitrary elements, and it must make definite predictions about the results of future observations." He also discusses the "unprovable but falsifiable" nature of theories, which is a necessary consequence of inductive logic, and that "you can disprove a theory by finding even a single observation that disagrees with the predictions of the theory."

Heck, even Pope John Paul II said that evolution is "more than just a theory," so it seems that Steve Shaw is in pretty good company.

With all due respect to his late Holiness, he is wrong. (Am I allowed to say that?) It is a scientific theory which, as I think even Steve has said, is as good as it gets in science. Steve does seem to agree with him though, describing Darwinism as a "great truth".

As for me, I'd say that the Theory of Evolution is "the closest we've come to the facts so far."

Fair. I would prefer to say "the best fit to the facts so far."

I do think there's room for deeper understanding, but I believe we're on the right track.

Of course there is room for deeper understanding. The more we find out, the more we find what we don't know. That's the joy of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jun 13 - 04:47 PM

Fair. I would prefer to say "the best fit to the facts so far."

Well no, actually. A theory does not attempt to fit facts. it attempts to provide a comprehensive explanation of the phenomenon that the facts belong to. A good theory would also allow predictions to be made about what new observations will reveal. It's true that a single finding could, in principle, nobble a theory. But that can no longer happen with the theory of evolution. The jigsaw is too massive and far too complete. Darwin's theory was simple and elegant (you could put the whole thing into a two-line sentence that an eight-year-old could understand). But every development in cell biology, physiology, palaeontology, embryology and genetics that has occurred since Darwin has triumphantly confirmed the theory. Evolution is an incontrovertible fact. If something pops up that shows we don't understand theprocess of evolution after all (next to impossible in that apocalyptic sense,, I'd say), then the theory is wrong only in the sense that our explanation is wrong. But the fact of evolution would survive all that unscathed. Why? Because evolution is true, that's why!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: TheSnail
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 05:57 AM

However comprehensive the explanation, the theory still needs to fit the facts.
Throughout that post you use "the theory" and "evolution" interchangeably. Which do you mean?
Any comments on the other points I raised in my post?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 12:31 PM

"Why? Because evolution is true, that's why! "

and why is it true? Because you believe it to be true. You believe it to be true because others told you about it. You have not witnessed it for your self. It is your belief based on your trust of others.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 01:28 PM

quite agree jack. darwinism may be reducible to 2 sentences ,understandable to a child but that hardly makes it true.
i have been pressing steve for evidence that evolution is true,ie something that could not be otherwise explained,but nothing but assertions and evasions have been forthcoming.
i note your disagreement to my suggestion that there are limits to the changes possible in any organism.i did challenge steve to cite any proven ref to mutation giving rise to new information in the genome .as i understand it only deletion and shuffling is currently observable at present.maybe you can explain your reasons for believing that novel information does favilitate a microbe to man evolutionary pathway?.assumuming that you do not believe it because you were told it was true!guess we can all do that sometimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 05:08 PM

Not sure what you are saying pete. I read it through once. I think I have the gist. Knowing what I know about your beliefs, you probably should not be agreeing with you.

TheSnail is doing a perfect job of pointing out what I see as the flaws in Mr Shaw's arguments vis a vis Evolution. Basically Mr. Shaw claims more than he can scientifically. But as part of his belief system his claims are justified. He has seen enough to believe that evolution is true. He is mixing his own beliefs with Scientific Truth. He does not seem realize that THERE IS NO SCIENTIFIC truth.

I obviously cannot prove anything that you are asking Mr. Shaw to prove because there is no proof. On the other hand there is oerwhelming evidence.

If I ask you "Will the sun come up tomorrow?" Knowing what you know about the Sun and the Earth, you might be very comfortable in saying "Yes" but there is no scientific CERTAINTY that it will. But you would be an idiot to make plans based on the idea that it won't come up. It would be like buying a lottery ticket for a dollar that gave you a one in a billion (or trillion maybe) chance of getting any of your money back.

Likewise the "evolutionist's" view of the mechanics of creation has much better chance of a payoff than the one you propose.

The Evolutionist imagines the patterns and forces that Darwin described and looks for new patterns and morphologies which support or refute the theory, That has lead to better techniques for breeding, shorter paths to finding effective medicines and recently to the various genome projects which have led to various stem cell projects and genetic modified medicines and other crops.

Your theory basically says Man was created, immutable and unchanging in God's image and animals were created to serve and feed man.

I can't offer you proof, but based only upon that logical starting point; How would research have evolved to the point where we are now doing research on various animals, to successfully predict human outcomes have come about? Can you tell me how we could have come to transplant pig hearts into people knowing enough to know that they would work? Or should we just take Leviticus' word and not allow the "unclean" into our bodies? If we are not related to animals at all, why are some of the parts interchangeable? Why can we splice genes from animal to human and back?

Most current medical research stems from genetics, genetics as we know it, stems from Darwin. For science and education, the theory put forth by Mr. Shaw is far far far more useful than yours. I say "Thank God for Darwin." I humbly suggest to you that any Christian with some education in science and more importantly the history of science and discovery, might say the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 05:09 PM

you probably should not be agreeing with me.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 07:47 PM

Are you really trying to tell me that I haven't witnessed evolution for myself? Ha bloody ha!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 10:29 PM

"Are you really trying to tell me that I haven't witnessed evolution for myself? Ha bloody ha!"

One creature evolving into another? No you haven't. I would advise that you cease making a fool of yourself by trying to argue that you have. pete has the arguments, facts and intellect to tear you a new one on this one and I think he would be more than willing to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 01:31 AM

Neither do men light a candle and put it under a bushel, but upon a candlestick, that it may shine to all that are in the house.
Matthew 5:15

So, here in the Sermon on the Mount, JC says we should NOT put our lamps under a bushel. In another passage, he says more-or-less the opposite. Depends on the circumstances.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans sailor seaman
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 01:36 AM

Dunno. I witnessed a charming girlfriend turn into. ...

Anyway.

Glad pete can understand the works of Darwin in two sentences. Me? I've never tried.

I do understand though that many biblical stances have been proved to be what they are. Attempts to understand the world based on the knowledge of the day.

Well we now have the knowledge of this day.

Scripture as a metaphor for those with faith? rock on. As a literal concept? Stop trying to scare the kids, there's a good chap.

Sailor boy shows signs of evolving by the way. Or at least I thought so till I realised he was just contradicting himself again.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 05:55 AM

Don't kid yourself Ian.

Pete can easily reduce his explanation of evolution to a single word:-....WRONG!

That's what crazy fundies do.

That's why they are crazy, because they genuinely believe that their "God", or "Allah", or the "Cosmic Pixie" made everything in six days, six thousand years ago and everything that science turns up to the contrary is his idea of a sick joke.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 07:06 AM

Pathetic.................following Jerk the sailors lead on critisising some ones spelling is a very low blow.

Mind you, it should not suprise me with some of your more feeble attempts at being intellectualls...and failing miserably I may add.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 07:46 AM

Confusion is arising, perhaps deliberately, because of the different meanings of these words in scientific and colloquial use.

In scientific terms, an explanation which has not been tested by evidence is a hypothesis. Once it has been repeatedly proved by evidence and becomes generally accepted by the scientific community, it becomes a theory. To be scientific, a theory must always be subject to revision in the light of further evidence; it cannot claim to be the absolute truth, and no scientist would make such a claim, but it represents our current best understanding of the truth - which in colloquial terms is all we can ever mean by "true".

In these terms, evolution is a scientific theory which has been repeatedly tested by observation and experiment. Religious ideas about creation are hypotheses - explanations which are not proved, or even provable, by evidence. Despite this, their adherents often claim them to be the absolute truth.

I will not comment on which of these approaches is the more intellectually rigorous.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 08:28 AM

The chief mechanism of evolution is natural selection. Whilst I can't hang around long enough to see what elephants might evolve into next, I can see natural selection in action all around me. And, in the diversity of life and the inter-relationships of organisms on the levels of cell biology, biochemistry, anatomy, morphology, physiology and embryology (all of which were facets of my degree course many moons ago), I can see evolution.

Wacko, pete hasn't even read On The Origin Of Species (I won't be so unkind as to suggest that he can't read it. Yes I will).

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 10:04 AM

"Are you really trying to tell me that I haven't witnessed evolution for myself? Ha bloody ha!"

Yes, I am saying that you have not witnessed evolution. I am saying that because you and I know that the required scale of time is not available to you.

You say you have witnesses NATURAL selection? Personally? I doubt it strongly. Where in the manicured and highly controlled gardens of the UK? Accounting for observation bias? Really?

But that is not the point you have not observed evolution at all, not in the way Darwin described it. Even he did not observe evolution. He inferred it.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 11:51 AM

Yes, I have 'seen' evolution take place. It's going on all the time. I recently posted on one of these threads an account of how bedbugs have evolved a strain resistant to the pesticide which was supposed to exterminate the species, by those most adapted to resistance interbreeding to evolve this strain. When I say I 'saw' it, I don't mean I actually watched them at their breeding [here to tell you that I ain't no bug-voyeur!]; but I 'saw' it in the sense that it was being observed by scientists at a time that I was here on Earth & conscious.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 01:05 PM

firstly the reducing of darwinism to 2 sentances was referencing a quote from steve,though i did not look back for the exact words.

jack- i think i follow your argument as regards some measure of interchageability between humans and other creatures but whereas the darwinist might claim this as evidence of his beliefs ,the creationist sees it as evidence of a designer,utilizing and adjustig the blueprint to suit each application.

howard - your explanation of the differences between theory and hypothesis is helpful but whereas acceptance by majority of scientists may designate evolutionism to theory status ,i fail to see how it can be tested.origins science,by its very nature is untestable.
wrong predictions dont help it either!

steve is still equivelating [and ian] between evolutionism and natural selection.the latter of course was all darwin had to go on,something darwin may have "borrowed" from the creationist edward blythe.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 01:15 PM

I have looked up Blyth [note spelling] in wikipedia. He was indeed a distinguished ornitholgist, and an early observer of natural selection [tho he did not use the term himself] of whose work Darwin was well aware and much respectful, and whom he consulted, much to Blyth's own gratification -- '"much gratified to learn that a subject in which I have always felt the deepest interest has been undertaken by one so competent to treat of it in all its bearings" and they corresponded on the subject.'

But I can find no ref or evidence there to the fact that he was any sort of explicit 'creationist' as pete claims. Your source for this assertion, please, pete?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans body
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 02:14 PM

pete. Again and trying really hard to be civil about it.

Stop calling acceptance of scientific theories "beliefs." They cannot be beliefs as once they are refined they disappear. Nobody starts a war.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 05:34 PM

Militant atheism has always been the secret internal mindset of those who pose as a religious leader, dictator, emperor, political leader or your typical psycho in need o power who claims divine influence and inspiration.

You don't think the power hungry are really devout believers do you?
Amhadjinizad has to bow to the supreme leaders who are imams, and pray to Allah but he is obviously out for himself. Most priests as well as Popes know the score and you can bet they were often to clever to buy into total belief hook line and sinker, that was for the unwashed masses.

There have been atheists like Himmler and Hitler who devoted themselves to creating a new mythical religion, spiritual authority or divine messenger.
Bush the younger was found with his hand in that cookie jar many times but it has been shrugged off as pandering to his base.
It is more like pandering to the basest side of inhumanity.

Yep it seems to me that some of the most publicly religious people worship the power it gives them and disregard the rest.
Those who say they are religionists often do so to go along to get along.

Yes the worst atheists are the ones who usurp religion. At worst they can be monsters, at the least they are liars.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 06:52 PM

firstly the reducing of darwinism to 2 sentances was referencing a quote from steve,though i did not look back for the exact words.

Well, if it's me you're cackling on about, I said two lines, not two sentances [sic]. Would you like it? Do ask. And you never do "look back". You never "have time". You're always doing something else. Singing anti-abortion songs or something, I suppose. Either that, or (as I strongly suspect), you're just a lazy bastard who relies on the words of your equally-lazy fellow-traveller bigots.

I'll ignore the total bollocks you addressed to Howard (he must be cringeing) and turn to this gem:

steve is still equivelating [and ian] between evolutionism and natural selection.the latter of course was all darwin had to go on,something darwin may have "borrowed" from the creationist edward blythe.

"Equivelating", huh? Why, what word is this? You know something, you creationist arsehole? You are the rudest and laziest man that has ever posted on this forum. The message of yours I'm quoting from here is the stupidest and most incoherently-ungrammatical I've had the misfortune to read in years. Surely there's a hole somewhere nearby you can crawl into, thereby doing us all a bloody big favour. Actually, no. Do go on. We atheists look pretty good already, but you make us all look ten times better.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 08:51 PM

""Equivelating", huh? Why, what word is this? You know something, you creationist arsehole? You are the rudest and laziest man that has ever posted on this forum. The message of yours I'm quoting from here is the stupidest and most incoherently-ungrammatical I've had the misfortune to read in years. Surely there's a hole somewhere nearby you can crawl into, thereby doing us all a bloody big favour. Actually, no. Do go on. We atheists look pretty good already, but you make us all look ten times better"

I am sure he meant "Equating." Do you have the courage to address his point after that obvious and easy correction? I don't think so. No, easier for you, the great scientist/educator/anti-religious scholar to feign outrage over a simple grammatical error.

As for who is "rude and lazy" pete isn't the one spewing a stream of lazy, ignorant, unfounded insults. Pete has a lot of faults in his grammar, but he speaks politely and modestly. That is way more than can be said for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 09:11 PM

"jack- i think i follow your argument as regards some measure of interchageability between humans and other creatures but whereas the darwinist might claim this as evidence of his beliefs ,the creationist sees it as evidence of a designer,utilizing and adjustig the blueprint to suit each application."

Its pretty simple pete.

26 Then God said, "Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

The Bible says they were created separately according to their own form. Does it say that man was created in God's image and the animals partly in God's image so that man can use the spare parts? Not in my Bibles. It is either literally true and all true or part of it is allegory. You can't say it is all true and just say the part that doesn't fit your theory is allegory. That is like Steve saying that Evolution is a theory until he needs it to be "true" for the sake of his own argument.

I think Howard has explained theory vs truth quite well. I does not differ from what I said except in focus. I was talking about the terms focusing on what Steve and pete were saying about them. Sorry Steve you don't get to truthfully say it is truth just because you taught science and believe it to be true. Sorry pete, you don't get to say that it is untrue just because it is called a theory.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 09:40 PM

You're as mad as a box of frogs. You know that, don't you, Wacko Jacko?

Now then, Wacko. "Equating" is such an easy word. You know damn well that scumbag-pete didn't mean that at all. In a million years, how could you possibly imagine that someone who wished to type "equating" would type "equivelating", unless he was on something Class A or better? Well yes, you could imagine it. You've already told us of your incredible powers of imagination... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 11:06 PM

Calling people names doesn't make you seem any less stupid Mr. Shaw, quite the opposite.

Its pretty clear from the context that pete meant you two were treating "evolution" and "natural selection" interchangeably. It was doubly clear because you have done so. Often.

Call names all you want. Deflect arguments with taunts and insults all you please. None of that is making you look less stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans respectability
Date: 06 Jun 13 - 03:13 AM

I don't mind looking stupid though. Steve Shaw tries to make earnest points and gets frustrated to the point of abuse whilst I have no issue in taunting once a point has been lost and the protagonist insists on repeating till things become true. (Vicars spring to mind but I digress).

I have just thought of the best way to make Sailor boy look a fool.   Read his posts! Nothing else is needed. Hoist by his own petard with flawed logic and the rest of his diatribe? Oh, that must be the type of abuse he accuses others of when he looks a prize chump. I notice he hasn't gone running to the elves lately. I suppose thats a start.

Sorry about my moaning everybody but Jack Tarr gives good value and laughing at his absurdity is a nice break from reality from time to time.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: TheSnail
Date: 06 Jun 13 - 06:30 AM

Joe Offer
A few days ago you asked me what I think is the correct thing to say about the theory of evolution. Did you find my answer useful?

Steve Shaw

After I said that however comprehensive the explanation, the theory still needs to fit the facts, I asked "Any comments on the other points I raised in my post?"

Shall I take that as a "No"?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Jun 13 - 11:49 AM

"I have just thought of the best way to make Sailor boy look a fool.   Read his posts!"

Hmm the point I have been making about Steve and you for the past week. I guess imitation is sincere flattery.

You know I very rarely read your posts though, or usually respond to them since you told us all that the name "Musket" is a ruse you are using to shield real world Ian Mather from the consequences of the nasty, irrational thins that you say as Musket. If you are ashamed of what you say, why should any of us care about anything you say?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 06 Jun 13 - 12:26 PM

I think you are all as mad as collective boxes of frogs.

I think you was all bullied at school with all your little playground spats and hissifits.


Come on chaps, play bonny, theres dears.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Jun 13 - 12:48 PM

Concerned, is your real life name Max? :-)

You possess a unique combination of mischief and supervision that I have only ever seen in one other online persona.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jun 13 - 08:45 PM

Calling people names doesn't make you seem any less stupid Mr. Shaw, quite the opposite.

Its pretty clear from the context that pete meant you two were treating "evolution" and "natural selection" interchangeably. It was doubly clear because you have done so. Often.

Call names all you want. Deflect arguments with taunts and insults all you please. None of that is making you look less stupid.

While you continue to misrepresent people you happen to disagree with, you sad little man, you can expect a lot more in the way of taunts and insults and you'll deserve every single one. Your post here contains a classic example of such misrepresentation: I do not deflect arguments, I take them on, head on, every time, on this topic. Every time you do this I'll call you out for being the petty, small-minded idiot that you clearly wish to be seen as. By the way, it's abundantly clear that your understanding of evolution and natural selection (along with any other scientific concepts you've ever unwisely referred to) is just about on a par with thickie-pete's. Now that IS an insult.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Jun 13 - 10:27 PM

"you sad little man,"

More insults... sigh....

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,musket sans Ian
Date: 07 Jun 13 - 03:45 AM

You know, there is a difference between using a moniker and "shielding" as you put it. My name is Ian Mather. Fine, move on. I did say that in reality I am too diplomatic and the freedom of these posts is the ability to point and laugh at delegates from Dumbfuckistan with their inability to see religion as something some are interested in, some dismiss and some don't think one thing or another. No matter, we have our own legion of misfits, vulnerable people and smug idiots.

I suppose in a room, I would try to reason rather than laugh in your face.

But I'd still probably leave the debate thinking "Wow, thick as pigshit."

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 07 Jun 13 - 07:25 AM

"science,by its very nature is untestable"

On the contrary, by its very nature science must be testable or it's not science. It's tested by observation and experiment.

Religious belief, on the other hand, by its very nature is untestable. Indeed, it seems to rely on this, since it simply disregards any evidence which contradicts it.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 07 Jun 13 - 12:40 PM

notice the omission of the word ORIGINS.
THAT IS NOT TESTABLE - at least not to the exclusion of undesired explaations.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Jun 13 - 12:45 PM

Ian Mather,

   You said that you were using the name Musket because a reporter had asked you if Mudcat Ian Mather was the same one he was interviewing. You said that you wanted to say things here that you would not want associated with your real world persona. You then, rather arrogantly and stupidly, I thought, instructed me to address you as "Musket.

I thought that, since it is apparent that what you want to hide is your insults and childish mocking, of me and others, I could not accept that instruction. I called you Ian Mather AKA Musket, the next time you insulted. You called me a "pr*ck."

Be warned if you continue to arrogantly insult people I won't hesitate to say that Ian Mather is doing so.

I hope I have made this clear.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 07 Jun 13 - 12:52 PM

to the grammtically exacting-
equivocation - use ambiquity to conceal the truth.
oxford english dictionary.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 07 Jun 13 - 01:01 PM

think i might be missing something in your reply,jack.being made in Gods image surely relates to things other than body parts.He is spirit,as i,m sure you know ,so maybe i miscomprehend?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 07 Jun 13 - 01:33 PM

re- edward blyth,checked two sources on wed.one obviously pro darwinism.at time of writing on natural selection blyth was obviously creationist but sometime after this it seems he too drew comparisons between negros and apes,as darwin did ,i believe
note that i do not claim that the theory originated with blythe.it is however widely accepted that darwin used his writings [apparently without acknowledgment] .i am also aware that evolutionary ideas date back to the greeks also.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Jun 13 - 02:02 PM

As a stating point for science, Man is above the animals and separate from them is less useful than we all came from the same stuff.

"being made in Gods image surely relates to things other than body parts."

Of course it does, if you believe that Genesis is allegory as I do. But if you are insisting that it must all be taken literally, which is the basis of creationism, and "Creation Science" and all of that then you are stuck with this.

Image.

An image (from Latin: imago) is an artifact that depicts or records visual perception, for example a two-dimensional picture, that has a similar appearance to some subject–usually a physical object or a person, thus providing a depiction of it.

Image refers to visual perception, not souls or intelligence or anything intangible. Then you are left with if a pigs heart is like a man's and man's is like God's then Pigs hearts are in the image of God's.

On the other hand if it is all allegory, you can simply say "I realize that Evolution is the best fit for ALL the data we have, though it may not be perfect. AND assuming that God can create everything from scratch in 6 days, it would be a trivially easy thing in comparison for Him to make that 6 days look like 13.5 billion years." IMHO, there is no point in Creationism or "Creation Science" except as something to break into factions and fight over. I say as we render onto Caesar what is Caesar's, so should we render onto science, what belongs to science. We cannot solve scientific questions with religion any more than we can solve religious questions with science.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 07 Jun 13 - 02:21 PM

I have never called you a pr*ck. I did however call you a prick.

That's Ian Mather saying that by the way. Musket would add arrogant, gormless, self satisfied, confusing, delusional, hilariously stupid, absurd voice box for the terminally thick as pigshit.

Tell you what, you can't half get them going in Dumbfuckistan. Dozy old sod rises to the bait so easily it is almost naughty drawing him. So why do I? Perhaps because whilst ever he keeps starting threads in order to push his Creed in what he thinks are subtle ways, well idiots like me posting are a consequence.

Sailor Jack is a Christian! let's point and laugh!

Zzzzzzzzzzzzz

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Jun 13 - 02:22 PM

More childish taunting eh? .... Sigh... Carry on if it makes you feel better.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Jun 13 - 02:24 PM

BTW, you are the only person on this forum that thinks that Ian Mather is a better person than Musket. For your own sake you might want to work on getting over that delusion.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 09 Jun 13 - 04:48 PM

if i understand your argument,jack,you are saying that since the dictionary defines "image"[and likeness?] as ref to physical form that the whole creation account is allegory?.
my understanding is that the primary meaning has to do with the qualities of humanhood such as moral,spiritual,intellectual capacity.
i would need to be a hebrew scholar as to whether the word translated as "image" in english has a wider range than your take on it.i do know however that many hebrew words do have a range of meanings.the choice of translation often being guided by context.if this is true in this case,the interpretation chosen will be aided by theological understanding also.
there is however one other factor,and that is that in Christ God would take on human flesh and so there would be human resemblance then,,as indeed there is now as the Man represents us men to the Father.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Jun 13 - 05:42 PM

"i would need to be a hebrew scholar as to whether the word translated as "image" in english has a wider range than your take on it."

If the Bible is divine Revelation and every word of it is true, then you don't.

If you are not sure what is meant by "image", how can you be so sure what the meaning of "first day" and "second day" is in Genesis 1?

These are pretty dramatic things The Earth created before the very idea of light? "Divided the light from the darkness?" Surely Moses, or whoever wrote this knew what "shadow" was.

Did God not know when he "divinely inspired" this that the Earth is a ball rotating before a light source?

If you are going to pick holes in science because you literally believe the Bible why start with Darwinian Evolution? Why not Newtonian Physics?

If you can contradict the Bible by saying that the world is a sphere, that the Sun was created first. That light is a physical property of the universe, very large and obvious differences, why do you nitpick over which "bridge species" or missing links do or do not exist in the fossil record? Don't get me started on day 2 where it really gets weird and seemingly nonsensical.

Genesis
1

The Creation
1         In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2         And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3         ¶ And God said, Let there be light: 2 Cor. 4.6 and there was light.
4         And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5         And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
6         ¶ And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7         And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8         And God called the firmament Heaven. 2 Pet. 3.5 And the evening and the morning were the second day.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Musket
Date: 10 Jun 13 - 05:30 AM

Seemingly?

Chapter 1.

When Mr Bilbo Baggins of Bag End announced that he would shortly be celebrating his eleventy-first birthday with a party of special magnificence, there was much talk and excitement in Hobbiton.

Day 2 gets even better.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Jun 13 - 03:07 PM

900 posts! About 800 being Musket failing to be funny.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans sailor seaman
Date: 10 Jun 13 - 03:28 PM

Better than failing to make your piss poor point.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Jun 13 - 04:04 PM

My point is that you are a childish jerk. All I have to do is start a thread with the word "Atheist" in the title and you make that point over and over and over...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans sailor seaman
Date: 10 Jun 13 - 04:18 PM

I don't start threads on subjects I wish to ridicule. I don't make myself look stupid when trying to be serious either.

One of us tries to come over as an idiot and the other one doesn't.

Any guesses?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jun 13 - 04:41 PM

http://www.bartleby.com/108/01/1.html

People should quote their sources.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Jun 13 - 04:57 PM

Guest, Appreciate the advice, but I am pretty sure that pete knows the source.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Jun 13 - 05:10 PM

" I don't make myself look stupid when trying to be serious either.

One of us tries to come over as an idiot and the other one doesn't. "

Lets look at the evidence before we guess...

The one obsessed with making his own name a dirty double entendre?

The one constantly calling people names?

The one who published his own name here then ORDERED a person he was hounding and berating not to repeat it and thus aid and abet him in lying about himself?

The one who seems to be taking this conversation seriously even though for weeks, when he addresses I have been doing nothing but rubbing his nose in his own childishness and abuse, when he addresses me?

The one with the irrational fixation on the word "maths."

I don't know if you are TRYING to come off as an idiot. But you are certainly acting like a fool.

Do yourself a favor. Take a break. Abandon the nasty persona of "musket" and if you must let off steam, buy yourself a punching bag. If you want a picture of me to put on it, draw it yourself. Your imagination is far more vivid than your reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jun 13 - 07:37 PM

Nah then Wacko, loath as I am to enter this personal affray that you appear to be pursuing with Musket/Ian, let me ask you something. He's called Ian Mather. I'm called Steve Shaw (check it out - I'm in the phone book). You appear to not like people hiding behind pseudonyms, etc. So who are you? What's your full name, Wacko? Either bloody well tell us or please shut up about this. You are being tiresome, tedious and obsessively-repetitive, and I doubt that anyone else here knows or cares about your beef.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Jun 13 - 08:03 PM

Ah more name calling.

Mr. Steve Shaw,

You do two of the three worst things possible on internet fora, Name calling and skimming. I'm not about to let you add stalking outside the forum.

Do you want my name so that you can stalk me on online or are you planning to pay me a visit? You do not even have enough sense to keep what is between me and Ian Mather between me an Ian Mather. AND you don't give due attention to what is written here, even by yourself, so I am not surprised that you don't know why I am addressing him as such.

If you are tired of the contents of these threads, as you say you are and I do not believe, the obvious thing to do is to ignore them. Go back to Dawkins, report that you have failed and ask him if he has a new book of taunts for you to try.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jun 13 - 08:29 PM

Ah more name calling.

Hypocrite! You've done a ton of name-calling yourself in the last couple of days in two threads. Do yourself a big favour and stop bleating about this.

Mr. Steve Shaw,

You do two of the three worst things possible on internet fora, Name calling and skimming. I'm not about to let you add stalking outside the forum.

I wouldn't stalk you if you were the last man on Earth. Sorry to deny you the compliment.

Do you want my name so that you can stalk me on online or are you planning to pay me a visit?

Nope. Even though your house would be easy to detect, what with all that smell of bullshit around it. I'm asking you your name because you're apparently denigrating another member for some alleged lack of transparency over names, yet you choose to keep your own name a mystery. Hypocrite! But don't worry. Even if I knew your name I wouldn't come near you with a ten-foot bargepole.

You do not even have enough sense to keep what is between me and Ian Mather between me an Ian Mather.

God, that's a laugh and a half. You have chosen to air this particular load of dirty linen in front of the whole forum. If it's between you and him, then why are you involving the rest of us by forcing us to read your silly and petulant remarks to him, all too publicly if you ask me?

I should also like to add that using "fora" as the plural of "forum" is pointless, ludicrous and thoroughly pretentious.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Jun 13 - 10:29 PM

All I have to do is start a thread with the word "Atheist" in the title...

How 'bout if you don't start any more?

I hate all this conflict about something that should be so alien to conflict.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Jun 13 - 10:51 PM

"Atheist" is just a word like any other. Its not my fault that Ian Mather is psychotic about it.

Joe, It's not my fault that he is a combative idiot. I am not going to censor myself because those two are trying to bully me. If you want to stop the conflict, have the moderators sanction the the abuse. Ian Mather/Musket's name in most cases on this thread and a couple of others is personal abuse.

Musket says he uses that name so that he can abuse people and not be blamed for it in the real world. Shaw says he calls me names to "prod" me whatever that means.

They are deliberately being abusive, admitting that they are and it is my fault? I don't think so.

I appreciate your point of view. You think that I am making the dogs bark by provoking them. I can't say even the most reasonable thing about religion without provoking them. If the dogs can't behave, they should be put outside.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jun 13 - 06:30 AM

I bet Joe really loves the fact that he's on your side. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans body
Date: 11 Jun 13 - 07:42 AM

Aye. God seems to move in mysterious ways. ....

Dirty double entendre? You'll have to let me in on this one Sailor Boy. My mind doesn't wallow in the sewer most of the time so I fail to see what my school nickname I had from junior school has to do with dirty anything? I can see a link between sailor and Dick Emery or the bitch stalking BA Calcutta (failed) in The Perishers but Musket? Takes a disturbed mind to make a phallic link there.

At long last you have appealed to the moderators. You have form when it comes to asking them to help dig you out of your hole. Surprised it took so long.

I don't abuse people, I abuse back. I do laugh at absurdity and there are a couple of posters on other threads who I banter with but only two people have no case for my respect and you are one of them.

If you keep asking questions about atheists don't knock the answers. Why bother asking if you suspect the answer doesn't accord with your preconceived opinion?

I suggest you buy some books to teach you how grown ups acquire knowledge.

In the meantime. ..


HELLO SAILOR!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 11 Jun 13 - 07:45 AM

back to the discussion!
all that day and night needs is a revolving earth and a source of light.no problem if you believe in God,he is described as light in himself.
isaiah describes the earth as a circle and as hanging on nothing.

inspiration applies to the original writings.meaning can be obscured in translation.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans Ian
Date: 11 Jun 13 - 09:49 AM

Oblate spheroid apparently.

I note your point over translation. I suppose it is one thing to believe that scientific discovery has to be compared with biblical teaching, but doesn't the lost in translation bit concern you if you believe the scriptures hold true? 666 and all that?

Hanging on nothing has been clarified by other people as saying you need a reference point if you say it is hanging at all. That said, if this Isaiah person is from ancient times, it wasn't a bad stab at it. Whilst trying to rationalise the Bible with known physics is folly to say the least, it was written amongst other things as trying to understand the world around us. It is the primitive instinct to fill the gaps that spoils the effect.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jun 13 - 11:13 AM

I don't understand why Pete gets slagged over his views. He says what's on his mind and moves on. Pete and I get along well because he never gives me his views on religion unless I ask. I did ask, he explained and although I see things differently, we get along. He doesn't shove his thoughts down anyone's throats and he's always very polite in a meaningful manner. IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 11 Jun 13 - 03:41 PM

sorry ian,,i was doing a hasty post earlier and did not clarify that i was replying to some points that jack raised.
the "lost in translation" as you call it does not mean that the main themes in scripture are not understandable but there are some more minor questions of interpretation,in this instance the scope of interpreting the hebrew word translated "image".
BTW searching sites since,it seems that the word even in english includes the use i suggested in gen 1.

thankyou guest whoever you are.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jun 13 - 07:26 PM

sorry ian,,i was doing a hasty post earlier and did not clarify...

I keep telling you what a lazy bastard you are and you always oblige by proving it to us.

Oh Guest (lemme guess: "pete's uncle" perchance?), pete is the most impolite and rude person on this forum by miles. He routinely insults all working, honest scientists with his lazy brand of received wisdom. He chunders out the same old bilge all the time and never takes in or addresses anyone's points that don't fit his demented creationist views. He can't even be arsed to write half-decent English. I mean, how "polite" is that? Scumbags like him would have us all back in the dark ages in a heartbeat. Do reconsider.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 12 Jun 13 - 12:56 PM

i can hardly be insulting all the hardworking,honest scientists,even if your assesment were true,you badmouth all the ones that dont swallow the darwin dogma.
what dark ages was that steve?i reckon thats another myth.there was quite a lot of science and inventiveness in the so called dark ages.
mind you-with your lot restricting scientific discussion on origins in our schools we might be heading that way,since evolutionary thought hinders scientific progress by making wrong predictions.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jun 13 - 01:30 PM

What a load of meaningless piffle. Apart from the sheer pig ignorance about science and the dissing of scientists all over again, of course. As for my dark ages allusion,, that is a well-known saying in the English language that does not relate to a given period in history. You know, that very same English language whose comprehension is clearly way beyond your puny grasp. In the words of Joan Baez, don't criticise what you can't understand. Or was it Jesus. Dylan Thomas, that was it.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans respectability
Date: 12 Jun 13 - 04:07 PM

pete. When you talk of scientists that don't swallow the Darwin dogma you do, possibly inadvertently, describe most scientists. On the basis of working to a hypothesis in the absence of further evidence questioning said hypothesis.

However, that describes science. A hypothesis is there to be questioned and challenged to either make it more robust or dismiss it.

Biblical teaching cannot therefore be consistent with science as I have yet to hear an established church concede that Scripture is an analogy rather than describing reality.   It is the drifting towards acceptance of fantasy as reality that must, really must be shunned by society if we are to go forward for the benefit of all.

Sadly, that means questioning rather than accommodating your quaint but ultimately dangerous delusion. Sorry if that is insulting but we really need to stop patronising religion and making bishops feel important.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 12 Jun 13 - 04:58 PM

i have heard that scientists will hold on to hypothesis/theories until such time as there is just too much evidence against it and there is another to replace it.philosophically driven ones will be harder to abandon.however cracks are already appearing even among evolutionists themselves.have you heard of the altenberg symposium?.
or the scientists registered as darwin doubters?.
at present evolutionism is promonent but for a long time science progressed very well under a biblical worldview.
so whats so dangerous about that?
and what good has evolutionism done - other than supposedly dispelling ignorance. but is that not what is called begging the question?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jun 13 - 07:20 PM

Darwin didn't swallow the Darwin dogma for two reasons. First, there is no Darwin dogma. There is a theory of evolution by means of natural selection. A theory. Not dogma. Second, being a man who wrestled with uncertainty all his life, he didn't swallow any dogma.

and what good has evolutionism done - other than supposedly dispelling ignorance.

Well, in my book, dispelling ignorance ranks pretty high. On the other hand, all religions spread ignorance in a most deliberate manner. I mean, what did the Romans ever do for us...?

but is that not what is called begging the question?

No it isn't. Go back to school. Steve and MtheGM are watching you.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Jun 13 - 09:24 PM

Musket, I think most of the "mainline" Christian churches - Presbyterians, Congregationalists, Lutherans, Anglicans, and Catholics - have large numbers of leaders and theologians who would say that much of Scripture is analogy.
"Literal" interpretation of Scripture is not very popular in most of the "mainline" Christian churches, or among Reform or Conservative Jews.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,musket without sans
Date: 13 Jun 13 - 01:13 PM

Yes Joe. But how many of theologians pick up that point when stood behind the pulpit? If the philosophy is around using metaphor within the bible or torah or whatever to guide your moral compass then there would be no need for the incantations and professing allegiance to metaphysical creations and someone caught halfway between myth and history.

It is an article of faith to use words such as truth, gospel, living, or saying that Jesus did this and that. I have been to sacred places in New Zealand where the guides say "we traditionally believe that. ..." The least radical vicars, let alone the rest don't use the word traditional.

If a Church invites the meek poor humble and afflicted to join them in love, it is not very responsible to say "Ah well. They are clever enough to realise it is traditional rather than literal truth. " surely you aren't saying religion is dangerous for the gullible are you?

Read what pete says. Then tell me religion is about appreciating metaphor.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jun 13 - 01:23 PM

Taking the bible literally is stupidity personified. I doubt people who are smarter than turnips do so anymore.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans sin
Date: 13 Jun 13 - 03:34 PM

We have cultivated a fine crop then, let me tell you.

Turnips, neeps, swede. I suggest pouring a large glass and scan through the young earth creationist thread. Turnip broth.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jun 13 - 08:29 PM

I think that the main thing that gets atheists' backs up is the sheer certainty expressed by religions, in their prayers, hymns, teachings and in what they peddle to children. I get vilified for my alleged evangelical atheism, yet I have not once expressed certainty about my stance and have said plenty of times that I disown "atheists" who express certainty. They are very foolish to do that. I don't know whether there's a God or not (though I'm a long way towards one end of the scale). I'm more than happy to declare that I think anyone on either side who expresses certainty about God's existence or non-existence is a fool. The unfortunate thing for the planet is that those on the existence side who set aside their uncertainties, if they have them, when they preach their creed to others, especially to children, do a huge amount of damage.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Jun 13 - 05:30 AM

What I was taught in the Catholic seminary in Milwaukee in the 1960s, was not a literalist understanding of the Bible. Ever since, I have tried to teach Scripture with that in mind. I have tried to ensure that my students understand modern biblical criticism as deeply as they are able.

But on the other hand, I try to teach with respect for the story, and I don't "deconstruct" the story to the point where its impact is lost. Sometimes, no matter how hard I try, some students end up with a literalist understanding of the Bible, and it drives me crazy. I'm usually successful, but not always. My own godson (age 55), is mired in fundamentalism. He asked me to be his godfather when I was teaching him about Catholicism, but now he thinks I'm "not really Catholic." Grrr.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 14 Jun 13 - 11:43 AM

but have,nt you moved the goalposts joe ,or do you think the Saviour,his apostles,and the church fathers interpreted scripture as you do.
yes i know that some of the latter did stretch allergory but not at the expense of the plain,historical,sense of the scripture.
i suppose you could include yourself in because so many leaders subscribe to similar compromise of traditional christian understanding and faith!
i tend to sympathise with those who are accusing the church of not really putting their cards on the table.if pastors and priests really expressed what they subscribe to ,i suspect some might transfer to churches where the cleric actually believes what he preaches.
i know that you have been entrusted with study leadership and from a scholarly perspective i would probably find you interesting,but i am curious as to whether your priest agrees with your views,and if so,does the congregation know.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Jun 13 - 07:44 PM

You pose an interesting question, Pete. But yes, I think that Jesus and his disciples were far less "literalist," than are modern fundamentalist Christians. Job and Jonah are two of the most wonderful allegories written. I don't have any documentation of this, but I cannot believe that Jesus failed to see them as allegory.
As for the stories in Genesis, same thing - although the Genesis writings are not quite as clearly allegorical as Job and Jonah. The Genesis stories fall more clearly into the category of "myth" - and I think Jesus understood the creation stories as sacred myth. Exodus, I dunno.

If somebody reads the Book of Jonah in the Bible and tell me that it's "actual fact" and not an allegory, I know I'm dealing with a real idiot. And when you read Jonah and come to that "Oh, Duh!" moment when you realize it's an allegory, then you begin to understand that much of the Bible is allegory - and that allegory can be a very wonderful thing. By the way, Jonah and Job are the funniest books in the Bible, and they're very enjoyable reading.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jun 13 - 01:19 AM

"when you read Jonah and come to that "Oh, Duh!" moment when you realize it's an allegory, then you begin to understand that much of the Bible is allegory" ····

Hmmm. Maybe, Joe. But you pick a nice simple, clear example. Further up, you say "The Genesis stories fall more clearly into the category of "myth" ... Exodus, I dunno".

Now, when you say "The Genesis stories", do you just mean the Creation parts, or the whole book which goes on much beyond that? - right up to Joseph & his brethren. Surely we need that bit if we are to get to the Egyptian exile, without which no Exodus for you to 'dunno' about? And which bits of that, anyhow? Presumably you are thinking of parting of Red Sea & Manna from Heaven & so on ~ but I take it you don't mean Moses was a mythical or allegorical figure, do you? & how about the Golden Calf? Obvious symbolic signif; but did it happen IYO?

So, taking your words 'much of' from first snip above, what criterion would you suggest for deciding *which* bits?

Can't help thinking that the answer may tend to the side of the ones you won't convince anyone that they could have been the case. A bit of an easy get-out it seems to me, if I may say so, without a bit clearer categorisation to distinguish the 'Duh' bits, before this argument is going to convince us lot, whether 'lumped together' or not!, that the basic hypothesis, of the existence, or the necessity, of some sort of creative/controlling entity, called 'God', should be any part of the equation.

Or do you postulate him as a 'I dunno'?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Jun 13 - 01:44 AM

Well, Mike, I think there may be a little bit of history in Exodus, but I won't speculate how much. As for Genesis, I think it's 99.326% myth - a wonderful, sacred, meaningful myth. All the attempts to "prove" Genesis are just so much hogwash, as far as I'm concerned.

Some theologians have posited that the Exodus story is meant as an allegory to tell the tale of the Babylonian Captivity. I don't think I buy that.

One commentary says that the first two chapters of Job and the last chapter, are an ancient Jewish folktale. The middle part of the book is theological writing from a later period, a study of the nature of good and evil. And by the way, those three chapters are very colorful, and quite funny.

. Whatever the case, I don't tie my self to the "historical facts" of the Old Testament. Still, it's a fascinating book.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans without
Date: 15 Jun 13 - 01:53 AM

I don't think the issue here is Joe stating that his take is what it is and as he sees himself as religious, ergo you cant dismiss religions without addressing Joe and the many more like him.

It misses the point though. Society being controlled by dogma describes the influence of religious institutions throughout time. That the control freaks apply their craft by wishing people to believe such writings as literal truth is part of the problem.

Joe and many more are not the problem. The problem however relies on the respectability Joe and others lend it. The Pope doesn't differentiate when bringing the breadth of his influence to the table when addressing world leaders. I don't see The Archbishop of Canterbury disowning fundamentalist bishops in developing countries either for that matter, even when they lobby ministers for applying the death sentence for being gay. Instead he perpetuates the myth that gay marriage is bad for society, giving respectability to abhorrent views.....

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jun 13 - 02:58 AM

A fascinating book, I agree, Joe. As a folklorist I find it endlessly so. And I am very fond of Job. And there are folkloric elements I rejoice in [wouldn't Lot's story have made a fine incest ballad to go along with Sheath & Knife & Lizie Wan & The Rich Man's Daughter -- but a justification for incest, yet; a lot of people seem to have missed that bit, don't they?]. But, without a bit more indication of which bits we may find in any way trustworthy, I can't help feeling that the negatives, so well summarised in Musket's animadversions just above as to its baleful overall influence, will continue to hold sway over its 'fascination' SFAIC.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 15 Jun 13 - 04:55 AM

well joe,in your terms it looks like you are dealing with an idiot as i have no trouble believing that God is well able to prepare a sea creature to swallow jonah.if you believe the gospels it seems you are calling Jesus an idiot also.he compared the 3 day duration of jonahs internment in the sea creature with the 3 days of his in the tomb.
maybe you think that allegorical as well and he never rose again?.
my question to you would be the same as paul posed to the roman leader
"..why should you think it incredible that God should raise the dead"
i respect your right not to answer my query as to whether your priest is as liberal in theology as yourself,and does the congregation deserve to know if he is but i am inclined to think such witholding of any such information borders on the deceptive,especially if he preaches as though he does believe.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 15 Jun 13 - 04:55 AM

well joe,in your terms it looks like you are dealing with an idiot as i have no trouble believing that God is well able to prepare a sea creature to swallow jonah.if you believe the gospels it seems you are calling Jesus an idiot also.he compared the 3 day duration of jonahs internment in the sea creature with the 3 days of his in the tomb.
maybe you think that allegorical as well and he never rose again?.
my question to you would be the same as paul posed to the roman leader
"..why should you think it incredible that God should raise the dead"
i respect your right not to answer my query as to whether your priest is as liberal in theology as yourself,and does the congregation deserve to know if he is but i am inclined to think such witholding of any such information borders on the deceptive,especially if he preaches as though he does believe.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans body
Date: 15 Jun 13 - 05:52 AM

I said somewhere that it is not easy to be objective here and everything is subjective.

Hence pete regarding Joe an idiot for not believing you can be in a whale for three days or that Jesus died and then didn't die.

Be buggered if I know which is the idiot here? or put more mildly, whom is most gullible?

Putting aside two interpretations of the word belief, and assuming belief is genuinely believing something is what it is, does anybody here actually believe the man Jesus, whether one person or attributed to a number of people around the same time.. Does anybody actually think his mother was a virgin, his father a mythical creature with wings, his ability to cure dead and afflicted people, his own coming back from a perfectly satisfactory crucifixion and floating off into the clouds afterwards?

Is it me or doesn't that sound so bizarre that Joe has to have a point over allegory? Especially bearing in mind most of the bullshit end of the claims were borrowed from earlier legends?

No wonder I have issues accepting intelligent integrity of some people.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jun 13 - 07:29 PM

Some theologians have posited that...

One commentary says that...

And someone needs to look up the meaning of weasel words.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Jun 13 - 12:13 PM

Our illustrious atheists have a severe problem with the Pierian spring. But they no doubt feel there's no reason to pay any attention to the warning issued on this topic;   after all, it comes from A. Pope.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Jun 13 - 12:22 PM

Ho, very referential, Ron. But be assured we have much more than a little learning: more than you, I shouldn't wonder. And certainly more than the person who uses 'educated' abusively, as an insult.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans piss taking
Date: 16 Jun 13 - 01:26 PM

Actually it is piss taking.

Ron Davis is superstitious and is hijacking threads where grown ups are debating reality.

I appear to be an atheist although by others not by my use of words. However, I haven't heard of this Pierian spring. So your hurdles are as irrelevant as your assertion that there is a God, what ever that means.

In fact, most people haven't heard of this spring thingamajig. And most people don't believe in fairy tales, even those who get comfort from reading them....

Atheism becoming a religion? Don't make me laugh. The idea of rejecting superstition is to admit to being beyond comfort blankets or not seeing them as relevant.   So why the fascination with thinking rational people need irrational thoughts? Oh. Sailor boy thinks so....

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Jun 13 - 01:38 PM

For info:-

Part II of An Essay on Criticism (1711) by Alexander Pope [1688-1744] includes the famous couplet

A little learning is a dangerous thing;
Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring.


This is in reference to the spring in the Pierian Mountains in Macedonia, sacred to the Muses. ~ Wikipedia

HTH

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,musket without sans
Date: 17 Jun 13 - 11:09 AM

I am indebted to you kind Sir.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 17 Jun 13 - 11:21 AM

try again!-last post disappeared.
i did not call or infer that joe is an idiot - possibly the other way round?
musket asks "...does anyone really believe..[basically what most christians for 2thousand yrs accept as true].."
i ask-
does anyone really believe
billions of yrs ago there was absolutely nothing,not even God.then something in this nothing[!] exploded and there was something.was it gas to begin with? or am i thinking of t rex "lifes a gas".somehow matter formed.a uicellular something became multicellular.somehow life came from matter-anyone for a secular miracle!-and against all probability and thats only the beginning of the story.anyone for fairies at the bottom of the garden!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans the Big Bang
Date: 17 Jun 13 - 01:02 PM

That's the problem. Nothing exploded if what we surmise is true. Time as a dimension didn't exist.

But anyway, my point isn't and never has been that we have the answers yet, but the evidence makes such hypothesis possible. However, what discovery has taught us is that biblical teachings include the fanciful.

There is evidence for the Big Bang. Where is the evidence for all that is attributed to any God? More specifically, why the link with love? Indifference maybe but love? I take it omnipotent translates as impotent where Syria s concerned.

So.... Any ideas that can tie biblical teaching with astrophysics, quantum mechanics or, the killer blow, the demonstrable evidence of the minimum age of stars and planets?

Scripture tried to make sense of the known universe, fine. So did science up till 5.00pm tonight. One knows and invites being superseded, the other fears it.

Not so believable, this god of yours, if those who use words such as truth fear true truth, as it were....

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jun 13 - 01:13 PM

i ask-
does anyone really believe
billions of yrs ago there was absolutely nothing,not even God.then something in this nothing[!] exploded and there was something.was it gas to begin with? or am i thinking of t rex "lifes a gas".somehow matter formed.a uicellular something became multicellular.somehow life came from matter-anyone for a secular miracle!-and against all probability and thats only the beginning of the story.anyone for fairies at the bottom of the garden!

Well now, here's me thinking you were a creationist. Y'know, make something from nothing. I can't understand how you can have the gall to make this argument unless you are prepared to answer the schoolchild questions: Where did God come from, then? Who made him? These are the most profound questions any "theologian" can be asked, and guess what: they haven't a bloody clue how to answer them. At least we have evidence that the Big Bang happened, old chap, and we can explain everything that's happened since a few nano-seconds after it happened. And we're closing in. Considering your "knowledge" about God, I reckon you should be bloody impressed.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Jun 13 - 02:22 PM

I once OP'd a thread called "What went Big Bang?"

Just saying.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 17 Jun 13 - 04:22 PM

Just out of interest, what do folks think of the Gnostic Gospels? A quite different spin on the whole Christ thing. I'm reading Elaine Pagels' commentary on them at the moment and it's fascinating stuff. Had Gnosticism not been stamped out we could have a very different religion...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jun 13 - 07:34 PM

Exactly. What we call "the Bible" is actually a very arbitrary selection of stuff that the early tendentious proselytisers selected for us, avoiding, where possible, accounts that didn't quite fit the bill. But can you tell all these believers that? Nah. Anyone for the gospels of Thomas and Mary Magdalene? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 18 Jun 13 - 07:21 AM

One of the texts, the wonderfully titled "Thunder, Perfect Mind", even includes a poem from the perspective of a female divine power...

"I am knowledge and ignorance. I am shameless; I am ashamed. I am strength; I am fear. I am foolish; I am wise. I am godless and I am one whose god is great."

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 18 Jun 13 - 11:26 AM

ok- so what is this evidence for big bang suppossedly billions of years in the past.
as to light travel problem,- big bang has them too.there are however creationist models that offer solutions.big bangers use unsubstantiated fudge factors to solve their deficiency of explanation.i wish i could give all the tech stuff to demonstrate the creationist position.i await to see if anyone can demonstrate the veracity of big bang .

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Jun 13 - 11:37 AM

Must be admitted that the acceptance of 'Big Bang', which was for years in competition with Fred Hoyle's 'Steady State', is pretty recent -- about the last 30 or 40 years or so? I am far from believing that it is the sole, or the correct, explanation of the, at present at all events, inexplicable ~~ hence my previous thread which I mention above.

Which of course doesn't make me a believer in 'creation' by any sort of entity which could be defined as any sort of 'deity'.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Jun 13 - 01:27 PM

"...big bangers use unsubstantiated fudge factors to solve their deficiency of explanation."

Pete...YOU would have to show where this happens. The scientists who simply try to follow where the laws of physics lead have been finding for several decades now that the "big bang" fits the measurements and is... so far... a coherent model for **what has actually happened**. That means all discoverable science seems to point to that 14 billion year-old event.

Now... what WENT *bang* and how that got there is a matter of real debate. Why SHOULD there have been a 'singularity' to go *bang*? Maybe... *shrug* .. a 'god' put it there and said "Let there be light!"... maybe not. It's not exactly something we are likely to get to soon. It may even be theoretically impossible to 'see' back to and before the Beginning.

However... IF one chooses to believe that a 'beginning' must itself have a cause, and that 'God' is the only possible 1st cause, one must still confront the same question that 'big bangers' confront: Why should there have been anything, even a God? How did a 'God' get there... (where ever 'there' is). Simply stating "God is eternal" is a human mindset... not a proof of anything. It is one choice amidst several theories. Then, arguing that God "said so" thru the bible is just a circular argument. The Christian bible was written and edited and translated and interpreted by MEN, no matter what you choose to believe about 'inspiration'.

We fallible humans can only measure what we can measure and try to make it all internally consistent with reason... adjusting as we go. Religious 'answers' are just one way of saying "we don't need all those measurements... we have this book."

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans Fred Hoyle
Date: 18 Jun 13 - 01:27 PM

Fred Hoyle and his steady state, in a similar way of thinking that had Victorians using an ether state as they felt nothing could work in a vacuum, was slowly dropped as an hypothesis as the evidence started corroborating the newer thoughts. Hoyle to be fair was consistent with Newton who also saw relativity as being against a solid true state, time and position based. Einstein and relativity destroyed key tenets of The Principia. That publication was about as near to scripture as science dare allow. I had a hard time in my viva using Newton's bucket as an example of holding onto old theories....

No issue with that. Einstein had issues with Hesienberg's uncertainty, saying that God didn't throw dice. Note that he wasn't supporting any version of god, but using the term as a metaphor for what we are trying to discover. He and Schroedinger cooked up the cat analogy as a piss take to show the absurdity of probability in quantum mechanics and inadvertently described the situation perfectly....

The difference between superstition and science is that you can update science tomorrow, hence the myriad versions of string theory and dark matter / boson speculation. Once the merry go round in Switzerland does it's work fully, some theories, proudly held, shall disappear. Rather than start a war, those involved will learn from the experience.

Do superstitions allow themselves to be defeated by evidence? thought not.

pete sounds like those idiots in Hammer Horror films, dog collar and crucifix at the ready, staring at the camera saying there are some things mortals must never learn.

Go on pete, give us the tech stuff. we can handle it you know. I have a PhD in mechanical vibration and others have declared their credentials. I guarantee it will get an objective scrutiny.






Once I stop laughing. I suggest reading Asimov's wonderful essay in "The Stars in their Courses." He took apart religious publications showing how science proves biblical teachings. A wonderful example is the text that was standard RE text in some American states during the '50s that said Venus did a flyby of earth that resulted in hydrocarbons in the huge comet tail comin down as carbohydrates, hence manna from heaven and all that tosh.

And Asimov has written many religious texts himself for that matter. he was just too intelligent to see the fairies at the bottom of the garden. Same as many more vaguely religious people who creationists and sundry fruitcakes insult each and every day...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Jun 13 - 05:46 PM

Ah, hip-hooray. Another Asimov admirer.

Tho of course he had his limitations. He knew as much about developments in computing as any man alive; so he wrote his great stories about Multivac, the great computer 2ce the size of Los Angeles. But, alas, even he didn't predict the microchip. He died before knowing that so few years later we would all be walking about with computers just as powerful as he ever imagined his Multivac would be in our trousers pockets & handbags. Or even that I would be switting here with one on my desktop, typing this to have it instantly transported thru cyberspace to where you will all be able to read it ... NOW

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Jun 13 - 12:26 AM

Joe, pete, interesting discussion.

My problem with trying to find science in Genesis, is that there isn't enough there to be a basis of scientific thinking. "let there be light." doesn't exactly explain where the hydrogen that the Sun is burning came from.

So as a Christian trying to make sense of it all beyond what is there. I am left with three choices.

1 Call it allegory and appreciate the poetry of it as Joe does.

2 Say the author was dumbing it down for the audience of 3000 years ago.

3 Insist that it is all literally make up what it means and the missing parts of the narrative and selectively try to cherry pick scientific data to support the theory I have invented (creationism)

My approach is a combination of 1 & 2

At least I am not a big banger, but that's not what the wife says.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans reality check
Date: 19 Jun 13 - 02:52 AM

4. Say that the author wasn't dumbing it down but was trying to understand the world around him, conveniently filling in the gaps with fantasy. Which is not a bad thing. Any hypothesis is fantasy till proved to be a fact.

The difference of course is that luckily, nobody started a religion based on The Principia.... If they had, our understanding of the universe would not have progressed so far as it has. Don't forget Darwin hid his work for years due to his failing superstition and the strengthening superstition of Victoria England.

I like reading some of the posts here. Cheaper than investing in a Salvador Dali to stare at.......

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 19 Jun 13 - 12:32 PM

welcome back to the dabate bill,if a guest might be permitted to say so.
you are sounding very authoritative about that 14 billion years and the measurements[?] used to arrive at that conclusion ,but unless that is your area of expertise, i suspect you are relying on what you have been told is the case.
admittedly,i am doing the same,and am trusting that the reasons given are valid.even supposing you are very versed in the specific discipline there are others who interprete the data differently,be they evolutionist or creationist, or something inbetween.
i am not convinced that to ask why there should be a God,and be eternal is a valid objection to a theistic presuppossition.
if he were not so [ie eternal and sufficiently powerful],it would indeed just keep pushing the problem further back.granted,just because scripture says so dont make it so - as far as the atheist at least,is concerned.however i suggest that even leaving aside the bible the backward search for a cause must stop somewhere and the God [whose description is in the bible] does fit the bill,bill!
i do not accept either your inference that soch a faith position inhibits further investigation.science progressed very well under a biblical worldview.who was it said he was "thinking Gods thoughts after him"?
so what is the atheist left with?.conjectering backwards ,never arriving at an answer because God is sidelined as a matter of course.
of course there is the other faith position,that is impossible to know,and so oftened expressed by steve,-that science is steadily closing in................

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jun 13 - 12:52 PM

backward search for a cause must stop somewhere and the God [whose description is in the bible] does fit the bill

God "fits the bill" by far the least well of any other explanation (I'm being kind inserting the word "other" there, as God doesn't explain anything, least of all himself). What you appear to be saying is that science hasn't got the complete answers as yet so that gives you free licence to insert any other "explanation " you like, no matter how improbable. All I can say is that your "explanation" would be worth listening to if only you had a scrap of evidence of some kind for it. But you haven't.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Musket
Date: 19 Jun 13 - 02:22 PM

Still waiting the the techy stuff to back up pete's assertion.

In the meantime, can you stop talking about the atheist view? There isn't one. Reality is understood by most people, regardless of what gets them through the night.

I am supposedly an atheist. I like to go to folk clubs. Ergo only atheists go to folk clubs?

Apples & pears pete. Apples and pears.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 19 Jun 13 - 04:58 PM

just because you say God is implausible,dont make it so ,steve.
IMO an intelligent creator is much more logical than blind chance.you have no other explanation and just insert unknown science into the gaps.it is a faith position.
musket - i have been waiting for some answers myself.and you scientists ought to be able to supply them since you are so adament that evolutionism is true.you will not get anything very technical from me.i will stick with more basic concepts like for example- biogenesis.so what evidence do you have that life can come from anything but existing life.that will do for starters?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jun 13 - 05:32 PM

The Miller/Urey Experiment would be a good place to start.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Jun 13 - 08:33 PM

Pete..."..you are sounding very authoritative about that 14 billion years and the measurements[?] "

No, that is not my "area of expertise". My area of expertise is understanding how arguments and data are obtained, presented and logically defended. I spent 6 years and 132 hours in college wallowing in that sort on inquiry. I cannot do the math and build the instruments that did those astronomical measurements, nor can I do the archeology and translation of ancient texts that explore the basis of Biblical documents. I can, however, evaluate the basic kind of facts and rational basis each purports to defend.
If someone told me (or you) that they got the age of the Universe.. or the age of the Earth.. from a Ouija board or from a mystical dream their grandfather had, we would both be more than a bit skeptical of the conclusions. If grandfather's dreams could accurately predict the stockmarket or elections regularly, we might take serious notice, even though we didn't quite know how it worked.
As I have said before, the data & conclusions of science are are a different type than those of religion, and the rationalizations that religion makes when it disagrees with science simply fail the test of logical coherence.
(**NOTE**.. this means even if they WERE true, they are not properly defended!) Grandfather 'might' make an accurate prediction about the stock market based on his dream, but we know that whatever claim he makes about the source of his insight is not likely to stand up to scrutiny.)

Now.. you replied to Steve Shaw about an 'intelligent creator' and 'biogensis'. Be assured that science now CAN describe the basic process of how 'life' evolves from basic elements... given certain conditions. In fact, physics & chemistry are now showing that SOME life is almost inevitable when certain elements are present under certain conditions. It would not necessarily produce 2 legged bipeds who argue with each other every time, but the basic brew can't be avoided.
If you choose to favor the idea of an 'intelligent creator' overseeing the process, I can only *shrug*...that depends on wrapping your head around the concept OF an 'intelligent creator' who preceeded all existence. I find it just as easy to imagine science's 'big bang' of a 'singularity' as to imagine a spiritual being saying "let there be.."

   The difference is, I do not psychologically need to have an **absolutely guaranteed answer**. I am willing to say.."Hmmm.. it looks like we may never answer that ultimate question of :Why is there something, rather than nothing?" Science can at least build bigger telescopes and dig deeper into physics. I'm not sure how religious theory can adjust over time to new insights. The problem is, they don't seem to think it's necessary.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jun 13 - 08:33 PM

just because you say God is implausible,dont make it so ,steve.

Just because you say God is plausible don't make it so, pete. And you invented him. I didn't. The ball is wholly in your court.

IMO an intelligent creator is much more logical than blind chance.

Why, of course. But your problem is that blind chance has even less a role in things than your God. Blind chance plays no part whatsoever in my thinking, pal.

you have no other explanation and just insert unknown science into the gaps.it is a faith position

Two things here. You have no explanation at all, and there is no such thing as unknown science. This statement confirms what the rest of us, bar Wacko, have known all along: that you know nothing about science, that you are too bloody lazy to learn anything about it, but that you are prepared to diss it, and insult hard-working scientists, at every opportunity.

____________________________________
[edited due to personal insults]

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Jun 13 - 04:44 PM

So after almost 1,000 posts it is clear, as I and others have noted more than once, that militant atheism, as seen in all its brilliance on this very thread (imagine that!) and fundamentalism have in common that they both assert more certainty than is justified in the the field they both purport to address.

The main difference appears to be that atheism has perfectly wretched music-- (always excepting the glory that is Frank Zappa)--,while music strongly endorsing belief contains many of the cultural peaks of civilization, as well as scads of merely great music.

Small wonder that sensible folks like Bill D, if given the chance to hit a button which would eliminate all religion, would not in fact hit the button.

But perhaps we should not give some of our eminent, if less stable, posters access to the button.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jun 13 - 08:34 PM

You're talking rather unfocussed bollocks there, Ron. By the way, there is only one way an atheist can assert certainty on this question, and that is by saying that God does not exist. Show me one atheist on this thread that has made that assertion and I promise to give him or her a personal public big bollocking from me. Nah. Let's face it. Certainty over this issue resides solely in the realms of people of religion. You'll see it in all their prayers and hymns and in what they tell their children. Do try to select the right target.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans Bach
Date: 21 Jun 13 - 01:22 AM

Here, can you smell something? Smells a bit like bullshit to me.

Religion has no music. It has words, granted. Charles Wesley was born 3 miles from where I type and the place is subject to daily pilgrimages. Fair play. He had an effect on many, even me. After all, it was his turgid mantras that dominated school assemblies, the nearest that children of rational parents got.

Bach didn't write religious music. He wrote music and gave it religious titles due to his strong faith. The music was of course abstract, same as any other music. In fact, his use of cadence gave a more detailed perspective of the infinite universe than any science can allow us to grasp.

Ron may well read this thread but what it says and what he takes from it are two very different things. A rather typical straw grasping approach, commonly seen to support superstition rather than reflect faith.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Jun 13 - 03:19 AM

Altho on your side, Musket, I must say that I don't think our view [so far as we share it] is enhanced by what I believe are poor arguments. OK, so music is abstract and has no specific devotional or didactic content. But other arts -- painting, sculpture, architecture, poetry -- are not, & can have. And all have been greatly served by, and have reciprocally served, the religious impulse, to the great enrichment of the world. Credit where due. Would you wish to be without Botticelli's astonishing Nativity, Caravaggio's Supper at Emmaus, Leonardo's Last Supper, Velazquez's Immaculate Conception, the Dome of the Rock, The Sistine Chapel, King's College Chapel, Bourges Cathedral, Dante's Divine Comedy, Milton's Paradise Lost, the Everyman morality ~~ Ecclesiastes and The Song Of Songs, for that matter...?

And add your own list: it could go on pretty well to ∞.

Blowed if I would.

~MichaeL~

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jun 13 - 05:54 AM

I'm very comfortable with all religion-inspired, art, architecture and music, and why on earth shouldn't I be? They are among the highest pinnacles of achievement of the human mind and I'm a human too. There's nothing I love more than to make a beeline for the cathedral if I'm visiting a city I haven't been to before. I was recently in the Accademia in Venice and was staggered by the beauty of the religious imagery on display, and I stood, gobsmacked, in front of a Titian Madonna for over half an hour (the missus thought I'd gone mad). Actually, if you go far enough back in music, you'd be hard-pressed to divorce almost any of it from murky religious origins. I'm not especially comfortable with the fact that much great art is "owned" by various religions, representing a large part of their untold and usually ill-gotten wealth, but, in that respect, religion is no different from any other capitalist individual or institution. All art is part of our shared heritage as human beings. I might even be so cheeky as to suggest (insupportably) that the unshackled mind of the atheist may well be far better equipped to appreciate it in the round...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Jun 13 - 06:36 AM

And with quite a lot of it, what's more, one gets the impression that a lot of the creators involved were like Vaughan Williams, who declared himself an unbeliever but found he liked writing the sort of music expected of composers of devotional music.

There is enormous humour in Gossaert's St Luke Painting The Virgin in the Kunsthistoriches Museum in Vienna: the Virgin is borne up on a cloud by infant angels; but their expression is agonised because she is so heavy! Lots of humorous touches in Benozzo Gozzoli's Journey of the Magi in Florence, all the way round the walls of a chapel in the Medici Palace without ever actually getting there; and some really kinky element in the same artist's Life Of St Augustine in his Cathedral in San Gimignano, with the Father of the Church in his schooldays being horsed by a bigger boy to be thrashed on the bare buttocks by his schoolmaster.

Lots of such examples. One can't help but suspect a bit of doubt in the truth of it all by the artists concerned!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans art
Date: 21 Jun 13 - 06:49 AM

To be fair Michael, my first draft did include religious art and architecture. My appreciation of Westminster Abbey or staring at Botticelli is no less of an experience just because I dismiss the supernatural dimension and instead marvel purely at the skills of the artist as a human. Art is no less wonderful if it happens to be diabolical. William Blake being the example that comes to mind.

I am irreligious yet hairs stand up at the back of my neck when I have been fortunate enough to gaze at some of your examples, or when listening to Jesu Joy of Man's Desiring in a church during a concert. (We are lucky around here with concert availability) but at the same time, a relative who smiles too much and plays drums at his "church" on a Sunday wouldn't know a Picasso from a Giraffe's arsehole.

Funnily enough, if I were minded to join the club, I would struggle to find a real church with just organ, King James words in the prayers and Wesley hymns. I am sure I would settle for nothing less (or, Clapton forbid,) more.....

On a similar note, I don't share McColl's rose tinted views on travellers, but have been known to sing Freeborn Man because it is a beautiful song. I go to see Dick Gaughan too for his wonderful guitar and complimentary gruff voice, but let the hand wringing messages wash over me.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ed Brown
Date: 21 Jun 13 - 06:57 AM

If "militant atheism" has become a religion, then "militant non-attendance at heavy metal concerts" has become a new kind of music.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jun 13 - 08:26 AM

My appreciation of Westminster Abbey or staring at Botticelli is no less of an experience just because I dismiss the supernatural dimension and instead marvel purely at the skills of the artist as a human.

Out of pure logic you could easily dismiss the supernatural dimension, but if it's there, and the artist intended it, it's there, so enjoy! I regard my atheism as incorruptible by such things.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 Jun 13 - 12:54 AM

Skepticism makes perfect sense;   atheism makes as much sense as fundamentalism (and no more), and for the same reason--as I have noted more than once.

So perhaps our treasured atheists can tell us exactly why they are atheists, rather than skeptics.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Jun 13 - 01:53 AM

Why, Ron; some concepts are so beyond-the-pale just plain silly that scepticism is not enough to express one's sense of their entire absurdity.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans scepticism
Date: 22 Jun 13 - 03:45 AM

Michael puts it succinctly and with a well aimed arrow.

However, never one to shy away from ridicule and clumsy laughing and pointing, I may add the following....

As there is rock hard physical evidence to show that most of the Jesus myth was borrowed from earlier fables in order to assimilate "savages" into "noble" fear and superstition, and considering it is patently obvious from physical evidence that Genesis starts on a false premise, hence the rest can make use of the biblical pillar of salt....

You cannot be sceptical about the truth of fables, physical impossibilities and conflicting fables depending on which superstition you were raised under. That gives credence to ridiculous concepts and most people are educated and mature enough to see straight through it, so no need to be sceptical any more than being sceptical over the existence of lizards running governments. You may only either laugh, (my pathetic but satisfying response) or smile indulgently, (the response of most rational people.). On balance, the latter response only serves to encourage the buggers. That wouldn't be a problem but most religious types wish society to beat to their drum. Piss off is therefore an appropriate response.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jun 13 - 09:42 AM

So perhaps our treasured atheists can tell us exactly why they are atheists, rather than skeptics.

Because atheism is simply a shrug of the shoulders in the face of all the pro-God prosyletising. There is no need for sniffy scepticism. I told you why I'm an atheist less than week ago. I'm an atheist because:

There is no evidence for a God. The laws of nature can probably explain everything, though we do need to understand all those laws first. We are closing in on even the hardest issues still to be explained, and there's no need to interpose an "explanation" that explains nothing, least of all itself.

I can't see where I need to insert scepticism. It's really simple. I get with life as if God isn't there (except for arguing with believers who do stupid things like encourage their children to "believe in God" and force them to say prayers and go to religion lessons in silly faith schools, and with confounded idiots who preach creationist piffle in the face of all the evidence for evolution and who can't use the shift key). I'm not sceptical about what people want to believe. I was sceptical about ball lightning until I saw it for myself. The only thing I would say is that if you believe in God you should keep it strictly to yourself. If all believers did that right and moral thing, and left their kids alone, you wouldn't hear a peep from atheists.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jun 13 - 09:59 AM

It's very interesting, isn't it. I saw ball lightning one midnight in about 1983. There is no doubt about what I saw, stone-cold sober as I went outside to get the cat in There is was, floating for three minutes low over my street's rooftops, heading for Epping Forest, a fizzing, incandescent red globe as big as a beach ball. As far as I'm concerned, ball lightning is true. But I'm not asking anyone to believe that. No-one else was out and about, unfortunately. I don't even mind being called deluded. I saw what I saw and you can't change my mind. I've researched it thoroughly (and honestly) ever since and nothing I've found out has worked against what I saw. I could set up a ball-lightning religion. People have set up religions on far shakier foundations, so why not? All I need to do is work out a way of persuading people that ball lightning will get you in the end if you ever dare say it isn't true. I'm working on it. I am the ball lightning Messiah!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans atheism
Date: 22 Jun 13 - 10:14 AM

I'll follow you mate.

Do we get to wear silly robes and intimidate vulnerable people?

Count me in.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jun 13 - 10:19 AM

I was thinking of forming a trinity. You, me, and do you know a good woman?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans sloppy seconds
Date: 22 Jun 13 - 12:12 PM

I know one called Trinity if that helps. Or at least I used to. Ironically she married a vicar and they went off to run a missionary in a country where the locals will all happily convert so long as they give them wells, irrigate fields etc.

Our religion will have none of that shit. You do the frighten them with fire balls and dire prognostications, I will be in charge of collection plates and imposing our beliefs on politicians.

Trinity can make us cups of tea and wash up. After all, she is only a woman so not much point in training her to be one of our bishops. We will have plenty of time available to watch Sheffield Wednesday beat Liverpool in the cup because we won't have to spend our Saturdays conducting gay weddings either. You don't have to put up with all that shit when you run religions apparently.

Wish I'd thought of it before. My song writing will be easier too, just repeat vague mantras over and over again till brain washing sinks in.

Best not recruit choir or altar boys though, just in case....

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 22 Jun 13 - 04:26 PM

bill- you say i should be assured,as though it was an unassalable given,but then qualified it with ifs and whens.my first response posted [but not appearing- again!] was to ask you to provide some link to this groundbreaking discovery. but having re-read your post i see no such claim.
has there been much since urey/miller . after repeated experiments less than half the amino acids needed to even start anything even remotely likely to begin life were produced.and that was with directed experiment.the general theory of evolution posits no intelligence,as of course atheism demands , and why ,i suggest,they either state that science is closing in on the answers,or that they can live with not knowing,and shrug it off.the first is a faith statement,the second is evading the problem of very basic science that even i can comprehend,ie life only comes from life.
whilst appreciating your studies in the formation of argument,i suggest that not even with such training are you safe from your own worldview and the presuppositions stemming from such mindset.
the creationist generally admits to his presuppositions but despite popular caricature the creationist argument encompasses the scientific.therefore the dichotemy you present between the religious and the scientific is false at worst,and exagerated at best.

musket- the similarities between pagan myths and the Jesus story are grossly exagerated and only seem valid by pulling bits out of the whole .some of those myths often appealed to actually follow and borrow from the Christ story.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jun 13 - 05:23 PM

Well, pete, that was the usual pile of incomprehensible, ignorant bilge. Now shut up because you are interrupting the formation of a new religion. Naturally, we're adopting the template of all the other biggies, including the adoption of misogyny (I'm sure you can wade in with some of your anti-abortion guff) and some inexplicable, quasi-miraculous phenomenon or other that has only the word of uncorroborated witness (my certainty, nay, nascent gospel, over my ball lightning sighting, once I've fleshed it out). Gosh, we even have the seeds of renaissance Christianity here: an already-forming schism, à la Luther (Lex? God, I'm confused) vs. Catholics-style, in the form of Sheffield "Protestant" Wednesday (the fans protest hugely at their team's lack of achievement) and Liverpool, once managed by Pope Shankly-the-Only. There are drawbacks in following the formula of course. We desperately need a novel angle. I'm thinking breweries in place of cathedrals. Musket...?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jun 13 - 05:35 PM

We do need a gospel, Musket. Do you think think we can start by working the doubting-Thomas ploy on people who deny ball lightning? I'm also working on forcible recruitment procedures in maternity wards (which could include the ritual removal of the left ear pinna of all infants) and a fear factor. Maybe a night out with Ann Widdecombe for venial sins and two nights outs with Ann Widdecombe for mortal jobs...or, maybe, nights in...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Jun 13 - 07:02 PM

CLICKY.

Don Firth (just passing through)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jun 13 - 07:17 PM

Er, nice idea, Don, but a pumpkin is both too similar yet not different enough to my glowing red ball lightning orb, if you see what I mean. A bit like those two tunes you daren't play both of because they're uncomfortably similar in the B part and you might unintentionally segue from one to the other, to the chagrin of the other sessionistas...

Not only that, there the danger of potential new adherents to the creed thinking that a pumpkin is just, er, pie in the sky...if you see what I mean...

Let's not rush this...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Jun 13 - 07:59 PM

I have seen ball lightning - or at least balls of fire in the sky - at least three times.

The first time was the most impressive: My brothers and I were in the wash house of a dairy while an electric storm was in progress. The tip-out window and the door across the room from it were both wide open even though I asked my brothers if we could close it.

Suddenly there was a LOUD crack of lightning and a large orange ball came in the window, squashing slightly to fit, and then drifted lazily out the door. I don't remember any noise, no hissing or sparking or anything like that.

However, the boys then closed the door.

I think I am a good woman but, really, I am not a joiner.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Jun 13 - 10:22 PM

Steve, I understand that the origin of the idea of a Jack O'Lantern as an scary icon of Halloween had its origins in sightings of ball lightning.

Religious symbolism?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans revelations
Date: 23 Jun 13 - 03:00 AM

The doubting Thomas bit is already covered. Your Liverpool stance denies the true path, but I digress.

We can have our miracles from a pool of supernatural characters we share in vision. I will write the gospel of David Hirst, Chris Waddle, Trevor Francis and from the Old Testament, David Ford and Don Megson (who sent his only son Gary down three times.)I thought your miracles would be from the times of the prophets, Shankley and Paisley. After all, done nowt since... We have of course the odd joint angel to offer the masses, the goalie Bob Bolder for instance.

I like the idea of breweries for our cathedrals. They give us an equivalent of the blood of Christ and most have visitors shops so tins of shortbread biscuits make great wafers. By (genuine real) coincidence I have rented a cottage in Southwold from Monday for a few days holiday, round the corner from Adnams brewery. I might just be tempted to suss it out and claim it for the faithful.

The charitable status will be a Claptonsend. We can hoard valuable paintings and not pay tax, just like real religions. The suckers we can teach to be our priests tend to work for a low stipendiary too, although they expect fringe benefits. (See earlier post. )

Hymns..   I happen to like organs but draw the line at mouth organs. We may need a reformed church chapter to accommodate your strange musical tastes......

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Jun 13 - 08:29 AM

""So perhaps our treasured atheists can tell us exactly why they are atheists, rather than skeptics.""

They are Atheists because that is what the religious decided to call them.

If you believe that Atheists invented the term as a badge of office, you are way off beam.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Jun 13 - 08:35 AM

""musket- the similarities between pagan myths and the Jesus story are grossly exagerated and only seem valid by pulling bits out of the whole""

So cherry picking is only valid for fundamental Creationists?

What was left out of the bible, would considerably alter that inerrant word.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Musket
Date: 23 Jun 13 - 09:19 AM

Don, can we interest you in joining?

If you could be so kind as to fill in the details for gift aid too, your subscription will help the cause that bit more...

To everybody else, you realise of course that henceforth you cannot dismiss Steve Shaw and I as being mere atheists.........

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jun 13 - 01:18 PM

"henceforth you cannot dismiss Steve Shaw and I as being mere atheists"

Henceforth?

We always thought of two as religionists considering your egos, setting yourselves us as deities seems not out of character.

Thank you for once again reinforcing the thread title.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Jun 13 - 01:22 PM

"henceforth you cannot dismiss Steve Shaw and

I

as being mere atheists"

><<><>



ME

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 23 Jun 13 - 03:18 PM

i was under the impression that football was already a religious observance.
who was it credited with declaring-
"football is,nt a matter of life and death - it,s much more important than that"

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jun 13 - 05:03 PM

You are under so many wrong impressions, old chap. Including that quote. Now I've accused you many times of being the laziest bugger on this forum and you've just proved it to us again. Now go and be a good boy, do ten seconds' googling and find out what that quote really said.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jun 13 - 05:05 PM

Musket, we need a victim. I have wood and nails. See if you can get Wacko for us, would you?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans grammar
Date: 23 Jun 13 - 05:19 PM

Much obliged M'Learned friend. However, I was paraphrasing a quote by Mr Hitchens.... hence the use of the Victoriana he loved to use.

So, my salty friend. Having an ego makes you religious eh? That answers a few questions.   Anyway, we had an inaugural meeting earlier and item 6 on the agenda. You are blackballed for starters. Damaged goods and all that. Our acolytes cannot have predetermined delusions you see.

pete. Don't wish to give you too much credence, (you are subject to the black ball order too) but you are right on two counts. Bill Shankly said it, but that is Steve's area of expertise.   Your observation of the religious aspect of supporting your team has been well documented on this thread. Granted, mainly by me.

Don't forget. Bingo Tuesday nights. Wednesday nights we discuss why other religions are a danger to society. Fridays we arrange demonstrations outside gay households.   Women are more than welcome to all our services. After all, we need people to make the teas and wash up afterwards.

---

This had been post #1000, but Musket posted the same message twice above and I deleted one, so Musket's next message is #1000, for what it's worth. Are we supposed to congratulate Musket, or something?
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,musket sans millenium
Date: 23 Jun 13 - 05:29 PM

I didn't acknowledge the previous post being the thousandth post to this thread.

1. False idolatry is not in our draft constitution.

2. Seaman Stains may get a stiffy from being so bloody important that his op gets a thousand posts.

But there again, the op is based on a false premise, which fits in well with a thread about religion. ....

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans Ian
Date: 23 Jun 13 - 05:51 PM

Hey Joe!

I posted the last one before your postscript appeared.

You can join us, although I respect that you might not. Here in The UK, Catholics can't be freemasons for instance. Not knowing much about either, despite knowing quite a few of both, I rely on experts.

Off on my hols in the morning. Hopefully Steve will have hid our Kielder Water scrolls for future confusion by the time I return. I hope to reccie the local brewery whilst there. It could become our Canterbury. Although Mrs Musket hopes I catch up on a few novels and take the dog for long walks.

Bed now. Long drive in the morning.

Tiring stuff, starting a religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jun 13 - 07:06 PM

Hopefully Steve will have hid our Kielder Water scrolls for future confusion by the time I return.

I'm having them put through an authentic ageing process (smear the edges with milk and put under hot grill for a minute), badly translated and selectively edited. Remaining inconsistencies won't be a problem: I'm working on a special text which I'm calling "Ballightology" which will use tortuous and dense obfuscation to "explain" them away. My first job is to decide whether "Ballightology" should have a triple l. Following that, the scrolls will be concealed in a cist on a hillside somewhere in a Catholic country in an area populated by many simple child peasants, some of whom will be led to "discover" them by guiding flashes of ball lightning (technical difficulties in the production of same will be easily circumvented in the first instance by the use of Roman Candles gleaned from boxes of Standard Fireworks, but I'm working on it). Why Catholic child peasants, you may ask? Well, they are as likely as any to have been instructed to be gullible, and there won't be much difficulty in threatening them to accept whatever the scrolls dictate, thereby causing trouble with their mums and dads and creating the germ of a major schism.

Now all I have to do is determine the content of the scrolls, written in a tongue that is part menacing, part indecipherable. I need someone who can write in strong Geordie...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jun 13 - 07:11 PM

We always thought of two as religionists considering your egos, setting yourselves us as deities seems not out of character.


?????


Have we been having drinkie-winkies before hitting the keyboard, perchance?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jun 13 - 07:27 PM

Instruction on the only acceptable methods of ritual slaughter of ordinary vegetables will shortly be forthcoming (yes, British Israelites, I will accept your advice). As an interim measure, I'm producing millions of car stickers depicting the suitably phallic outline of a butternut squash, disposed at a jauntily priapic angle, which I predict will have a far greater impact than that inexplicably stupid fish job that certain Christians deploy.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Jun 13 - 12:46 AM

C'mon, you atheists:   surely you have more time to waste than this;    we can't let the unarmed soldier thread pass us.   Oh, the shame of it. Where's your patriotism?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans gatekeeper
Date: 24 Jun 13 - 02:52 AM

It goes without saying that you are blackballed too.

For the 1000th post I am declaring a religious public holiday this Thursday. This side of the pond, its how we do things and over in the ex colonies, I work on the principle you don't get enough of 'em.

Not that I am being populist you understand. The true path demands blind faith rather than scrutiny.

Steve, I tried going to B&Q to get some nails and timber on Sunday afternoon. They had just shut, something to do with those heretic bloody Christians. I smell a conspiracy here.

Where is the promised land we need to lead our people to? Hillsborough obviously. .....

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jun 13 - 07:01 AM

Hillsborough? Land of Empty Promises? Now there's a novel twist I think I could live with....

Musket, I've just had a thought. We need martyrs. People really loyal to the cause that everybody gets at all the time. That stuff's headline-grabbing in a way that ball lightning clearly isn't. Obviously, you and I would, in other circumstances, be good candidates, but we can hardly envisage wiping out the leadership (though they managed it with Jesus...hmm...) We need compliant thickies, fast...

And miracles fer chrissake. We need miracles. Are there people on this board we could raise from the brain-dead? We urgently need to brainstorm that one when you get back from your hols. Find stuff we can jump in the pool and swim with. While you're away, see if you can locate a potential shrine of some kind...



And not bloody Hillsborough...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans martyrdom
Date: 24 Jun 13 - 12:15 PM

We could always use Wembley. Twenty years since I was last there but the true path is always lit and all that tosh. Your lot used to venture there occasionally too for that matter.

I don't know about willing martyrs though, because faith requires a degree of hypocrisy and Mudcat brethren are far better at preaching it than actually living the dream. Some of the armchair socialists are as bad.

That said, we could always drug a few and use them as sacrifices. I know it is illegal but religions don't have to obey the same laws or sense of propriety as normal people, so if it is what our god says, we can ignore UK law, same as with equality, child abuse and tax affairs.

Miracles. Get back to you on that one. Although since becoming religious, I can get a morning glory without assistance? You see, we priests can get all personal in public. Its what we do....

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 24 Jun 13 - 01:01 PM

I might be willing to join the flock depending on the quality of the hymns you come up with but I'm a poor canidate for crucifixion as I haven't had a tetanus booster in 6 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans infection control
Date: 24 Jun 13 - 02:11 PM

No probs. we only use galvanised nails. Also, our centurions use a strict bare below the elbows policy.

Assuming B&Q are open. Then we buy them in a pub from Fat Bob.

Best not to join us on a Sunday eh?

The hyms are rocking man! I can already feel a rumble. Might be Charles Wesley spinning in his grave though....

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jun 13 - 07:28 PM

Yeah, hymns. Gotta keep modern on this, though. None of that Wesley bilge (though an adapted version of How Great Thou Art, applied to me, Musket and the as yet unspecified woman, would clearly be apropos, I humbly suggest). I'm thinking lusty rather than namby-pamby. And let's not be woolly on the hymn front. We need stuff specific to our as-yet-to-be-specified feast days, à la carols and hymns to the virgin sort of thing (and that was just an example, by the way: virginity for us would be a matter to be urgently dealt with...)

And Musket, I'm very impressed with your God-like ability to be in two places at once, on holiday and still posting here. You're definitely giving off the impression that you're all-seeing. Give us a glimpse into Wacko's underpant drawer whilst you're still in East Anglia and you'll have the gullible "believing in you" in droves. And don't let's allow the momentum to flag here. Whilst you're away I'd like you to germinate an idea or two on a possible heresy law as well as a quasi-fatwa notion. Don't let the sand get into your butties.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Jun 13 - 07:57 PM

Pete--I've been away 3 days. Will reply later. Perhaps in another thread where we can be serious and not lost in the birth throes of a new religion....you don't need a new one and I can barely keep up with the swirlings of the old ones.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Jun 13 - 11:43 PM

The quixotic quest to bully away our religion is your only religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Jun 13 - 12:05 AM

Probably hardly worth saying, Jack: but you are there, with the word 'religion', "paltering with us in a double sense", as Macbeth said of the witches' apparitions' prophecies, which makes you, like them, a "juggling fiend".

Seriously; you must see you are there using 'religion' simultaneously in both its literal & its common figurative sense: as in the David Lodge novel about the nuns who decided as an experiment to give up the habit while teaching, and the hairdresser telling one of them that she must not forget to put her hair in curlers every night: "You must do it religiously," she said, quite unaware of the irony.

You can't get away with that, you know. But at least it might bring the thread back on track. Steve & Musket's fantasies of founding their own faith with themselves as Messiahs & stuff was faintly amusing at first, but IMO is becoming a bit laboured & wearisome and flogged-to-death.

How about giving it a rest, guys?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans body
Date: 25 Jun 13 - 02:12 AM

I'd be careful Michael. We haven't decided what to do with heretics yet, but whatever we decide, it will have government wringing its hands and putting culture before safety of the blasphemer.

It isn't tedious just yet. It needs followers and political influence before we reach that stage, surely?

No. Jack is right. Pushing Christianity in order to bully non believers on these threads is wrong. Or at least, that's the logic of what the dozy bugger just said. You don't need satire with him, just read what he puts. ....

Yeah. On my hols but what with a dog to walk and a religion to co form, no rest for the wicked. Ice cream on the pier followed by writing about events that never happened a couple of hundred years after the non events for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Jun 13 - 03:03 AM

Well, I am bored; and that's what matters. Because I am the deity, old man. geddit?

So sue me. Or crucify me. Or burn me to a steak...

Pax vobiscuits...

'Ave a Tia Maria.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans the finished article
Date: 25 Jun 13 - 07:40 AM

Have two if you like, but beer is the choice of the brethren. Tia Maria will be served in the women's section around the back.

If you are pitching for the post of deity, could I ask you use our HR partners via their website? They can accept uploaded cv content in Word format. Of course, if you are omnipotent, you already know that.

I don't burn steaks. I buy my fillets 36 day old from a local farm shop and quickly seal the outer. The inside is essentially blue. We don't sue because that would mean yielding to court judgements and as a religion, we only observe courts and law when it pleases us, we otherwise say we answer to a higher authority.

The more I think about it, the more I wish I had started a religion earlier. I might franchise it to a bloke in Dumbfuckistan with perfect teeth and shares in Fox News. They know how to milk it better than I do.

Any Hollywood "actors" out there wanting a cause we can all laugh at? Get in now before the rush!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Jun 13 - 08:34 AM

" Of course, if you are omnipotent, you already know that."

Omniscient.... Unless you are planning to have your own dictionary.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Jun 13 - 08:48 AM

Militant Atheism exposed.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans sarcasm
Date: 25 Jun 13 - 08:51 AM

No real answer to that. Just to be sure, I checked and yes, my use of language is not incorrect. Though Jerk's random typing would also fit, by coincidence.

How about impotent?

Thinking on, that's accurate too where man made concepts are concerned... Their power is 100% human......

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans salon stuff
Date: 25 Jun 13 - 11:09 AM

Started reading the link Seaman Stains just posted.

Just wondering what the output of someone who was anti religions has to do with atheism, militant or custard coloured? That Curtis White seems to have a fixation with dismissing controversy. There again, he does admit to being capable of rational thought.

Hitchens. He is dead mind, so won't be able to diss our true religion. Yeah, Dawkins is blackballed too. And that ex Bishop of Durham who said intelligent people don't actually believe in virgin births or rising from the dead.

Oh, and anybody capable of seeing through the aims of religious leaders, they can't join us either. If other religions can attract the gullible, vulnerable and desperate, so can we. And we can offer them free beer on a Sunday. (May have to check that one out with Archbishop Shaw, but no matter. We don't have to deliver on promises.)

I was pm'd and asked why we haven't got a God yet. Why would we? No bugger else has, so why should we be the first?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jun 13 - 04:51 PM

ok bill.if you do reply on another thread,we can only hope that the usual badmouthers dont try to hi-jack civil discussion there.
pete on lousy laptop that wont settle at the right place!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans martyrdom
Date: 25 Jun 13 - 05:05 PM

Start your own thread pete. Its easy. I can do it and for that matter have just started a religion so starting a thread must be easy.

By the way, what do you charge as a technical advisor? Your skills may be needed if our religion is to attract the right suckers, er.. I mean believers.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jun 13 - 06:38 PM

I don't burn steaks. I buy my fillets 36 day old from a local farm shop and quickly seal the outer. The inside is essentially blue.

Fillets?? Only well-hung sirloins pass muster in this new faith (There's something about "well-hung" that chimes with me - can't quite put my finger on it - no, dammit, not even both hands are man enough! ;-) )Mine are created from nothing and seared to medium-rare perfection both sides with quick blasts of ball lightning.

Steve & Musket's fantasies of founding their own faith with themselves as Messiahs & stuff was faintly amusing at first, but IMO is becoming a bit laboured & wearisome and flogged-to-death.

We are founding certainty, The, not faith, and we are unselfish enough to concede that two Messiahs are insufficient. We need a trinity setup with a token woman (still misogynistic but a hell of a step-up from our lesser rival religions). As for flogged-to-death, you heretic, just be careful what you wish for. You could well be ending up on the wrong side of the new catechism here...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Jun 13 - 08:55 PM

Musket.. and the usual other suspect. Pete & I have serious differences...I have been discussing/debating with him for maybe 2 years. It is, of course, unlikely that either of us is going to get major agreement from the other... and IF Pete had a login, I would carry on most of this by PMs. Because I think it's important to get my views clarified..whether anyone agrees with me or not... I try to set out MY side of things (which are in most ways identical to Steve's) so that Pete and others from the religious side at least 'get' my points. I have been assured by 2 different people who know him personally that Pete is a good, honest, serious person. If I did not think this was true, I would not bother.

I have made the point several times that nasty insults and ridicule never seems to help ANY discussion, but that continues. At a face-to-face public gathering, two people could just walk away and find a private spot...but in here it seems like some feel free to interject any level of sarcasm and insults.

IF Pete & do continue a discussion on another thread, I hope comments can be limited to facts and logic. You may continue your "new religion" here, though I doubt it will be half as much fun if few are reading....

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jun 13 - 09:09 PM

Well, Bill, I've observed your painstaking yet time-wasting efforts on pete. You are misguided if you think he's honest. His demeaning of all science in the cause of his personal delusion is the most closed-minded and dishonest stuff I've seen in years. He's taking the piss out of you, Bill. Stringing you along. Your affair, of course, but it ain't sweet to see.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jun 13 - 09:09 PM

Well, Bill, I've observed your painstaking yet time-wasting efforts on pete. You are misguided if you think he's honest. His demeaning of all science in the cause of his personal delusion is the most closed-minded and dishonest stuff I've seen in years. He's taking the piss out of you, Bill. Stringing you along. Your affair, of course, but it ain't sweet to see.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jun 13 - 09:10 PM

I definitely hit send just the once, you stupid forum you.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Jun 13 - 09:48 PM

You Steve are projecting what you WISH to believe. YOU can't comprehend Pete's position, so you choose what to believe about him. I said months ago that you 'could' drop by 7 stars pub and say hello to Pete...it's 2000 miles for me. You made sarcastic remarks about not wasting your time.

"Your affair, of course,"

Why yes... it is. I'd think anyone as smart as you would have realized this months ago.

I am now OUT of this thread. I 'may' start another. If I do, I hope "Your affair, of course," will be your guiding principle.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans martyrdom
Date: 26 Jun 13 - 03:08 AM

Yeah but no but. . If we persuade enough gullible suckers we can afford fillet!

Well, if I have to form a reformed church based on cut of beast, then it may be ordained I have to.

Oh, by the way Steve. I have though of a name, something nobody has described on these forums yet seem comfortable with using, often to mean not sharing their particular delusion.   It is, in the tradition if most religions, borrowing from existing dogma terms of reference and converts by assimilation rather than force.

I thought we'd call it atheism.   It isn't a used word except as a term of contempt by shallow people, and we can do the same trick as Church of England and claim to own a large part of the population despite miniscule numbers of active members.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jun 13 - 06:17 AM

"Atheism"? Well blow me down, why hadn't I thought of that!

By the way, if we can only find someone who can turn water into wine, just think...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jun 13 - 06:32 AM

YOU can't comprehend Pete's position, so you choose what to believe about him.

He's a man who skims over certain aspects of science (or skims over what other people have skimmed over before him) in an aggressive search for things that he sees as threatening to his beliefs so that he can be negative about them. His mission is to discredit any science that threatens his delusion. I'm all for people having delusions if they want. I have some myself (shut up about Liverpool, Musket). That's one thing. It's another thing entirely to make it your mission to destroy the honest and hard-won findings of scientists. That is not meek and mild stuff. It is dishonest and it is malevolent and it's why almost half the US population is in medieval ignorance about evolution and thr age of the Earth. You have let pete's "charming" online persona hoodwink you. You may think you're engaging him, but I have yet to see one single post from him that honestly engages with any real evidence. He's having you on, big-time.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jun 13 - 06:42 AM

I can turn wine into water. Well, sort of water. Will that do? And, hey! How come I have not found this thread before? I would have thought one of the per-requisites of any religion was to inspire non-believers with flashes of truth on the road to Domestos? How come I wasn't cruising the virtual byways and was inspired by divine intervention to open this...

Oh, hang on, I thought there was something bugging me since I fell over on the road back from the Kings Arms last Friday. I reckon this was it! WooHoo! I believe! I believe! Now then, how much money should I send, what unnatural acts shall I perform and where do I find a missionary position?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jun 13 - 06:44 AM

And you are now less than 30 posts behind the unarmed soldier. Which I have on believe is slipping down. At least I hope so...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jun 13 - 06:46 AM

Whoops - ...have on good authority...

Divine intervention made me miss that so more posts would be created!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jun 13 - 07:03 AM

Turning wine into water is a miracle with only very restricted application, required for example when you see that breathalyser coming towards your mouth... However, you sound like a useful chap nonetheless. What's your cassock size?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jun 13 - 07:28 AM

Is a Cassock one of them Russian blokes who charges round on a horse, chopping the heads off unbelievers? I quite fancy being one of them. If it is I am extra-large and extra-short so I would need a little horse that can carry a lot. Any pit-ponies left?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jun 13 - 07:33 AM

Cossacks in cassocks sounds like the kind of novelty we need. Extra large and extra short, eh? You sound like the ideal candidate for a high position in my new ball-lightning faith. In the right shape for it, as it were...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jun 13 - 08:35 AM

Yep, I'm not known as lightening balls for nothing but someone has posted on the unarmed soldier thread. Can one of you deities intervene?

How about Cossacks in Cassocks leaving the Tussocks to kneel on Hassocks? Can't think of anything else relevant that ends in 'ocks'. Can you?

I keep saying cheers but what is the proper salutation in Atheism?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Jun 13 - 09:21 AM

"Can't think of anything else relevant that ends in 'ocks'."

bollocks!!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jun 13 - 10:14 AM

That was sort of what I was getting at and you have inspired me, Jack!

From now on I will use the correct declaration of affirmation for the new religion...

bollocks!!

DtG

Cossack, Lightening Baller and self proclaimed scribe

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans Jack's parrot
Date: 26 Jun 13 - 10:19 AM

Welcome to the fold Dave. We have bingo Wednesday nights, turning wine into water most nights, once we get the gents plumbed in, and as The Sex Discrimination Act 1975 doesn't apply to delusionary sects with charitable status, we can offer you an archdeacon position whilst offering women fulfilling roles such as serving the teas and checking bingo cards back to the caller.

The proper salutation is " I think therefore I am." Once you are admitted to the third degree it becomes "I don't think therefore I'm spam." The suckers have to let us do their thinking for them. Don't ever let it be said that our delusion is no better than any other sect's attempt to control people.

We are in negotiation with Jack the Sailor to be our chaplain of the bleedin' obvious, although he had first refusal on our offer to be our first martyr. It seems to be traditional for your martyrs to be sailors, according to Leonard Cohen anyroad up, and being a Red Sea pedestrian, he should know....

Sailor Jack is our prophet too by the way. He started a thread saying atheism has become a religion, and bugger me with a bent banana, so it has! All hail the salty sea dog in exile!

Steve Shaw does the serious stuff whilst I concentrate on taking the piss. We need someone with credibility and as Joe Offer didn't return our call, you'll do Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 26 Jun 13 - 10:44 AM

Hate to burst the bubble of you Joseph Smith wannabes but there's already a religion called "atheism". It's supposed to be pretty militant so I imagine they'll defend their copyright aggressively. Hell, there's even a thread dedicated to it in this very forum, somewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jun 13 - 10:48 AM

Credible? CREDIBLE?? Moi? I have been called some things in my life but never that. I'll have to go for lie down.

bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 26 Jun 13 - 10:50 AM

O forgive me ,Musket, for I had not read your post.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jun 13 - 10:54 AM

Gillymor, how about we break from Militant or Orthodox atheism, lop the heads off a few queens, bugger up some monasteries and start our own? It could be Protestant Atheism but I would have to run in by Deity A, Deity B and the token woman, when she has ascended. Are you a woman with time on her hands by any chance???

bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jun 13 - 11:12 AM

That all sounds very tiring, DtG. All I want is a cosy little rectory and a few comely nuns decked out in nasty habits for my allegiance to the faith, or whatever the hell it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 26 Jun 13 - 11:17 AM

That was me. I'll also petition for pretzels with the Sunday beer in lieu of those bland little wafers.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans body of Clapton
Date: 26 Jun 13 - 11:34 AM

Yes but our wafers are those sold in National Trust tea rooms in tartan biscuit tins. Only the best for our acolytes.

Our atheism is the only true atheism and we reserve the right to lobby for blasphemy laws to protect our interests. Controlling people for our own weird ends needs legal protection.   Equality isn't enough. We want privilege same as those Christian buggers.

Blasphemy won't be a victimless crime much longer, not once we get to be government's moral compass. Can't wait to be able to tell shops when they can open and demand that our employees are revered by people on account of the shape of their collar.   Amazing what fun you can get away with when society puts you on a pedestal.   70s celebrities and priests have had the monopoly for too long.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 26 Jun 13 - 12:18 PM

This is starting to sound as boring as a legitimate religion. Deal me out.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans fun
Date: 26 Jun 13 - 12:31 PM

Religion isn't supposed to be fun!

It is about being sanctimonious and believing in fairies at the bottom of the garden.

Most of all, it is meant to be boring.



Ok you are blackballed. No appeal, just no jam tomorrow for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 26 Jun 13 - 12:42 PM

Too late, I've already excommunicated myself. Assuming it's possible to be excommunicated from a cult.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans shame
Date: 26 Jun 13 - 12:53 PM

Of course it is. The catholic cult excommunicate, don't they?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jun 13 - 12:59 PM

The Catholic cult? Are you sure you are spelling that right? Mind you, I have been told that I am becoming a cult. At least I think that is what he said.

I like the sound of Nuns in nasty habits too! How about some Hobbits with tasty buns as well?

bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Jun 13 - 01:39 PM

""By the way, if we can only find someone who can turn water into wine, just think...""

I used to brew a particularly fine apricot wine (the closest to turning water into wine you guys are ever going to get).

It would blow the spots off a leopard (sorry Sue) or shoot a Ford Anglia into geosynchronous orbit. Trouble is I don't qualify, as I don't beleve in your unbelief.

Sorry guys!
Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 26 Jun 13 - 01:42 PM

Yes ,Dave, that's what Catholics call the c-word.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 26 Jun 13 - 02:11 PM

As far as I know, militant atheists have never burned anyone at the stake, nor started a crusade nor jihad against anyone else. If they constitute a religion, it's an unusually benign one.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jun 13 - 02:18 PM

As far as I know, militant atheists have never burned anyone at the stake, nor started a crusade nor jihad against anyone else.

There's time yet...

bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

(Nearly caught the Soldier)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: TheSnail
Date: 26 Jun 13 - 02:38 PM

Fascinating.

A while ago, I tried to get Steve to express an opinion on the difference between science and religion to which he responded "I just happen to not particularly want to enter your booby-trapped and nice-but-irrelevant world of philosophical ramblings." He went on to say "Have you nothing useful to be getting on with?

I'm glad to see that he has found a useful outlet for his intellectual abilities.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans gatekeeper
Date: 26 Jun 13 - 03:06 PM

Don. Of course you qualify.   Since when did being superstitious and believing fantasy be a predetermined proviso to being a member of a faith?

I assume most UK Christians by declaration, including 80% of politicians don't actually believe in fantasy and impossible events?

If they do then

A) we are all screwed.

B) Steve and I might pull it off after all, because we promise bingo and beer. They promise miserable Sundays.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jun 13 - 04:06 PM

don't actually believe in fantasy and impossible events?

'ere, steady on mate! I bought a round at the pub only last month...

bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

(Soldier post creeping up again - STOP IT NOW or feel the wrath of my new imaginary friend. You know who you are!)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 26 Jun 13 - 04:38 PM

Whoa! Who's doing the exorcisms?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jun 13 - 04:53 PM

Not sure, Gillymor. I have not put an entry in the Toerag (My version of the Torah) as yet. I am contemplating performing exorcism by Exocet. Whatcher think?

bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

(Catching up again)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 26 Jun 13 - 05:36 PM

dave-the atheist regimes of communism have done far worse than the church has done throughout her whole history.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jun 13 - 06:42 PM

Not sure why you are telling me Pete from the SS coz I already know. I learned it at an early age from my Grandad who was kicked out of Russia during one of Stalin's purges and then had to leave Poland when both extremes starting kicking seven shades of shit out of each other!

And I had a vision from my imaginary friend :-)

bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

(Just 4 behind I think)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jun 13 - 06:52 PM

It would blow the spots off a leopard (sorry Sue) or shoot a Ford Anglia into geosynchronous orbit. Trouble is I don't qualify, as I don't beleve in your unbelief.

Sorry guys!

You worry too much, Don. The watchword in our new creed is bendability - oops, sorry, flexibility. The hierarchy have determined that your free-thinking maverick qualities would fit in very well, potentially qualifying you for high-priest status even, and your apricot wine would be a prime candidate for our communion service (as long as our bioassays conclude that it doesn't clash synergistically with magic mushrooms, of course...)


As far as I know, militant atheists have never burned anyone at the stake, nor started a crusade nor jihad against anyone else.

Disappointingly true, Dick, but you may rest assured that our Diabolic Department is working on it this very minute...

Now, chaps (not to include chapesses as yet, as our precise level of misogyny has yet to be clarified), I'm detecting something of an over-abundance of enthusiasm here, tinged with a definite touch of indiscipline. I mean, Musket old chap/deputy Messiah, for example, you might talk like this in Sheffield:
Steve and I might pull it off after all
...but we do have to think of the sensibilities of our wider catchment. I am thinking that a strong sexual element would provide a major draw, but let's not get too hasty, know what I mean? Better at this juncture to concentrate on our core values. We need a deadly sanction for those who would demur (all other religions have 'em, so why not us?), and we need to figure out a good order of service for our Wednesday night pre-bingo bash. One or two hymns, a bit of certainty-preaching and a ritual involving Don's apricot wine and, possibly, a portion per person of Sloppy Giuseppe if we can get them BOGOF at Sainsbury's. First things first.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jun 13 - 06:58 PM

the atheist regimes of communism have done far worse than the church has done throughout her whole history.

Coo, Mr Dishonest Liar tars atheism with that tired old brush. And don't you just love the sneaky feminisation of "the church"? Good God, this smiley little fellow is far too misogynist even for our new creed!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Jun 13 - 09:27 PM

Bollocks it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 02:52 AM

Hey! I just realised - Grandad was a Cossack and a Priest! I was BORN to this role :-) Mmmmmm.. Maybe I had better stay shtum in case I am over qualified...

bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 02:56 AM

...and I believe this post overtakes the unarmed soldier!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans body of Clapton
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 04:31 AM

DEPUTY Messiah?

I may have to throw my lot in with the Christians. I mean, crusades. Inquisition, colonial conversion etc. They are in a different league when it comes to killing to spread their word.

I bet they would see me as THE Messiah too. After all, I have a beard of sorts and before the bugger fell out, had long blond hair too. Just like the Western looking Middle Eastern Jewish dude.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 04:51 AM

It's been nice to stay away from this thread, but I'm still wondering why Steve Shaw is so insistent about all these things....

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 05:04 AM

It may have overtaken U.S., but it had a two month head start.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: TheSnail
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 05:30 AM

I'm still wondering why Steve Shaw is so insistent about all these things....

So am I, especially his rejection of modern scientific thinking.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 05:54 AM

Ach, to hell with the naysayers! (Or, if not hell, some nasty place as yet to be determined: Widnes springs to mind...) Now, Musket, in the interests of unity we should go back to regarding ourselves as co-Messiahs. I still need a woman by the way (oops, wrong thread... ;-) ). In the meantime, I'm working on the Commandments, which I hope to publish on this site later today. Be assured that your doubts about our equal top billing will be assuaged. I'm thinking that you can run things on a daily basis and make the big decisions, a quasi-papal sort of chap, whilst I perform more of a ceremonial role (a bit like God, who does bugger all but gets thanked for doing everything. Yeah, reckon I could live with that - for eternity, of course. Heheh!). Don't do anything drastic (though you could track down a woman - I'm not bloody washing up after the bingo...)

Hey! I just realised - Grandad was a Cossack and a Priest!

Er, Dave, and I'm trying to let you down gently here, are you sure he wasn't just a priest (and a dirty bugger at that) with a cassock? You don't have to prove yourself, you know - your shapely credentials are enough for us...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 05:56 AM

C'mon, Joe - I'll not question why YOUR God is so sure about these things if you stop doubting mine.

Lightning Balls - The true path

bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

I started out with Lightening Balls but that has a whole different meaning. Hey! Now that IS a phrase open to misinterpretation by future generations :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 06:10 AM

Widnes works for me, Co-Messiah. The REALLY bad could go to Ellesmere Port though and gaze with longing on Port Sunlight. Without wishing to preempt your commandments, Oh Mighty Bingo Caller who art in Heaven (Kirkby Lonsdale on a spring morning maybe?), can I begin on the Toerag. The acolytes, or seeing as it is lighting worship should that be electrolytes? Anyway, the acolytes need guidance. I thought I would start what I mentioned earlier.

Lightning Balls are the fundamental tenet of our faith. No other lightning or balls shall be tolerated. All other lighting shall be dismissed and all other balls cut off.

Should any of the faithful become possessed by demons, lesser Gods or the Police on returning from Holy Bingo on a Sunday with too much apricot wine inside, then the exorcism shall be performed by mighty Exocet, who shall purge all such evils from them.

How am I doing so far?

bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Whose Grandad WAS a Cossack in a Cassock and, quite possibly, of unclean habits.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 06:28 AM

All ideas are being taken on board, Dave. Are you sure Grandad wasn't just a becassocked priest who drank Cossack? Just wanting to cover all the possibilities, that's all. We don't want hierarchy members with delusions...

By the way, any idea what Messiahs actually do? Haven't had a chance to wiki it yet. Do we have to go round saving people and stuff?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 06:32 AM

First amendment all other lightning shall be grounded

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 06:37 AM

Dave, my God isn't about certainty at all - it's all about exploring the mystery of it all.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 06:45 AM

Pretty sure, oh Lord, but I could be suffering from a delusion brought on by my childhood in Russian Orthodoxy followed by conversion to Roman Catholicism (or was it North Sea Gas?). I shall be grateful if your omniscience would guide me. On that topic. I am a believer, yet I have not yet seen the balls of lightning. When will you and your co-messiahs be displaying your balls for all to see? I understand you are having trouble recruiting the third member? Maybe this is because she has not yet seen the balls herself?

I believe Messiahs do save people. You could incorporate that in a test on holy scriptures. Ask potential electrolytes to complete the following phrase

If you save fallen women would you save
a) £35 a month with a mutual building society
b) one for me
c) yourself a lot of trouble by not repeating old jokes

bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sas belief
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 07:05 AM

Joe. This new religion that is being formed...

You say that the good bit about Christianity is exploring the mystery of it all but many Christians explore the certainty of it all.

Not quite sure if we should be suggesting our true path or asserting it?

This religion lark is harder than I thought.


Oh Steve. I am in negotiations with Betty Swollox to be our token woman. She seems to know her place and once won a WI prize for Victoria sponge. Add knowing all the words to Jerusalem and by default has heard Kate Rusby sing at least one song, and she seems ideal.

Shall I arrange psychometric analysis and interview?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 08:37 AM

This is fascinating. I feel like I'm witnessing history being made but... until you nail up one (or both) of the co-messiahs you're just another rancid little cult awaiting the Mothership.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 08:46 AM

I'm struggling slightly with the concept of a woman who might be able to make a better Victoria sponge than my one. We don't want unseemly public rivalry. I'll get back to you on this one.

The Displaying of the Balls will be covered in the Commandments. Watch this space.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 08:48 AM

You can be Pilate.
Give your hands a good scrub and I am up for the Centurian's job.
Always look on the bright side boys.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 08:55 AM

Fwee Woderwick?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 08:56 AM

Execution?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 09:00 AM

Whoops.

"Crucifixion?"

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 09:29 AM

Now I have no objection to this talk of horrible deaths, after all many of our recruits will be signed up for life before they even leave the maternity unit (with one ear pinna missing, as per previous dictat), so they won't have a clue what their controllers (oops, sorry, parents) have let them in for, but we do need inducements for adults as a counterbalance. Anyone know where we can get job lots of virgins? Sorry, Musket, but you really are gonna have to look outside Sheffield apropos of this one...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 09:34 AM

The Virgin Islands?
Virgin on the ridiculous?
Richard Branson?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 11:20 AM

"Dogmatists pound their drums so hard that they can't hear one another. Their audiences, on the other hand, are unaware of the traveling dog and pony shows featuring the same adversaries over and over, who simulate surprise and "gotcha" moments. The only voice of reason in Puebla was that of Dan Dennett, who spoke about religion not as something hateful but rather as a phenomenon that begs investigation as part of human society, human nature even. Clearly, religion is man-made, so the question is what good does it do for us. Are we born to believe and, if so, why? Dennett is not as sure as the neo-atheists with whom he is often lumped together that religion is irrational or that the world would be a better place if its demise were hastened, noting, "I am still agnostic about that."


Excerpted from "The Bonobo and the Atheist: In Search of Humanism Among the Primates," by Frans de Waal.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans sea legs
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 01:02 PM

Has he been at the rum rations again?

Neo atheists... As opposed to irreligious normal people? As opposed to our new religion which you can't join because you missed the deadline for being our first martyr?

Sorry for being serious for once but I submitted an article last week saying why it is important to to keep NHS chaplaincy and there was a hell of a lot of personal opinion supporting the service. Religion may be irrational but so is placebo, yet both have a place in healthcare...

So Spunky Jack. Does that make me a neo atheist or a person idiots like you can't put in convenient boxes? It should be in next week's HSJ.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 04:22 PM

Hey, Joint Messiah/Deity, san pick up thy Musket, What is this about you not being perfect? How can we follow a Messiah that isn't... Oh, wait, I get it! Bit like ol' JC then - You need to be imperfect like the rest of us so we will believe in you. Ahhhhhh. Good. I can sleep now. Well, after the Shiraz Grenache communion wine anyway :-)

bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans blood of the Messiah
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 04:59 PM

Try a decent pinot Dave.

The grape of true believers.

Mind you, based on Steve's recommendation to make breweries cathedrals, I am reccying the Adnams brewery as I type.   Doing the tour tomorrow. Watch this space.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,concerned
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 05:24 PM

Oh no!!!..ru lot still on with this crap..get a life springs to mind.. and boy do you losers need one!!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans salesmanship
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 05:34 PM

Then join our religion instead of just being concerned! If your voice is as clear as your indifference you can call bingo for us, Wednesday nights.





Steve! Got ourselves a sucker, i mean convert, sort of...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 05:48 PM

Y'know, I could have sworn I just saw the same concerned person trying to wind people up on the thread about the Dent festival. But I am sure it couldn't have been because this one because this one obviously has better things to do than dip into any thread he can find just to get some sort of pleasure from posting annoying comments. Ah well. If it is I suppose, as a religion, we should do the right thing and help the disabled. Sort of care in the community I suppose.

Am I saved yet?

bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Romanian Pinot Noir is one of my favourite but, being a lowly electrolyte, I am not truly into the Burgundies.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 08:45 PM

""Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link - PM
Date: 26 Jun 13 - 05:36 PM

dave-the atheist regimes of communism have done far worse than the church has done throughout her whole history.""

Would you like to tell us what exactly was the cause of the crusades, the inquisition, the driving out of the Moors from the Iberian peninsula, the extinction of the Aztec, Inca and Mayan tribes, and sundry other genocides?

All down to devout followers of Christianity.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 08:56 PM

""The Displaying of the Balls will be covered in the Commandments. Watch this space.""

11th Commandment.

Thou shalt not attention give to Ed Bollocks talking Balls.

I'm sorry, I'll read that again!

Thou shalt not attention give to Ed Balls.....oh shit, who cares anyway?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 09:21 PM

Now, as your ceremonial Messiah I'm going to dictate that you sup the following wines, all under a fiver (we haven't usurped enough major artworks as yet or got enough fascist dictators on board to fund anything dearer). Asda French Marsanne (a white) at £4.50. Sainsbury's House Pinot Noir at £4.50, and, best of all (bar Don's apricot communion nectar, of course), Tesco's Simply Garnacha at £4.59. I am recommending these ex cathedra. It is not possible that anyone will regret buying any of these (and I mean it!). I'm thinking of excommunicating anyone who drinks anything with either Echo Falls or Gallo on the label. My theory is that the producers of these are juice-lovers and evolution-deniers. Nah, not theory. I'm all-knowing (I forgot that for a minute there), so I know these things to be true. Just like evolution. Thirty years ago it would have been Watney's Special or Double Diamond, but one has to keep up with the times, even if time is infinite to one.

The commandments will have to wait until tomorrow, as my whole evening was taken up with Spain v Italy in the Confederations Cup, which went to extra time and penalties in an absolute thriller (which I'd engineered, of course). Spain won the penalty shootout (I had to tweak that one too: I will not under any circumstances have Iniesta on the losing side, and I am the Messiah, you know). I'm thinking of having the aforementioned Andrés as deputy Pope. I have a spare purple frock somewhere. You OK with that, Musket?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 09:39 PM

Now look here, "concerned" or "concerened", wottevah. I find you to be just the kind of subversive maverick we need on board in order to add a little spice. You can, as we know, be a little on the vituperous side at times, so I propose to allocate a little job for you which I feel might suit your propensities. I need a logo (I already have the priapic butternut squash car sticker, so not that again), and I need something that can be somewhat more of a medallion, or necklace sort of thing, that, for example, evangelical nurses new to our sect can dangle offensively in the faces of defenceless patients (especially Muslim ones). I'm thinking (and I'm sure this will suit you) of a simple image of a sailor on the end of a plank (dig the vague crucifix allusion there!), cast, perhaps, in recycled ship's brass in order to maintain the nautical connection. If you know of any particular sailor you'd care to depict, and I suspect you do, I'm sure I could get you a photo to work on if you let me know. You could do a standard version for mass consumption, but I'm also thinking you could do a special edition for schools, perhaps with the sailor naked with a cutlass prodding his arse...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans terroir
Date: 28 Jun 13 - 03:53 AM

Spooky. The people letting our holiday home left us a bottle of Romanian Pinot Noir as a welcome pressie.   Also, Mrs Musket and I spent a large proportion of our honeymoon the other year in California hunting down the best Pinot.

Surely this must be a sign? Perhaps Dave the Gnome is the chosen one?

Steve. Have we enough people yet to rent a farm and get them there to hand over their possessions whilst waiting to welcome the mother ship to, wait for it. ... rapturous applause?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Jun 13 - 03:55 AM

Not that I wish to question thy teachings, oh mighty one, but how about the Fist Cape wines on offer at Morrisons. At £4.79 and the Shiraz being 14% abv (Not sure about the Chardonnay) it is a good alcohol per unit price which is all Philistines such as I need :-) I must admit a conflict of interests here though, being employed by said Yorkshire grocer.

Them there South Africans could do with a good dose of saving too so could I suggest that a missionary position in Cape Town may be efficacious?

bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jun 13 - 05:48 AM

Actually, Morrisons in Bude is a hell-hole, especially in the tourist season, now that they've made all their aisles narrower and inserted dump baskets all along them. Could easily be a match for Widnes. I'm thinking of imposing a curfew on little old ladies, who will only be allowed to shop on Tuesdays before 9am (dig the nice little misogyny touch there!), and they will be allowed 15 seconds to pay for their purchases and clear off, instead of the ten minutes it currently takes them to count out to the cashier the correct number of 2p pieces from their purse, once they've taken five minutes to actually find the purse in the first place, a search that is not undertaken until they've packed and repacked their bags several times over. Yes, I intend to show how religion can act for the greater good all right. As for First Cape wines being on offer, I ask you: which came first - the start of the DFS sale, First Cape wines going on offer or the Big Bang? I'm being rhetorical here of course, as I already know the answer and have done for ever.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jun 13 - 05:53 AM

Actually, Dave: ...how about the Fist Cape wines on offer at Morrisons. At £4.79 and the Shiraz being 14% abv...

"Fist Cape " wines at 14%? Cor, bet they pack a punch!

Bwahahaha! The first Messiah in history who makes great jokes!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jun 13 - 06:00 AM

Have we enough people yet to rent a farm and get them there to hand over their possessions whilst waiting to welcome the mother ship to, wait for it. ... rapturous applause?

Disturbingly, recruitment is a little on the slow side. We need those car stickers out, and fast. We could do with a baby boom. We have to see ourselves as in this for the long game. You should be OK with that, as any game involving Sheffield Wednesday must seem interminable.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Jun 13 - 08:59 AM

I suppose I have to laugh.

hahaha

Latest entry in Toerag. When a Messiah casts humourous quips they shall be chuckled at accordingly. A titter will be too little, a guffaw too much, so a chuckle shall be the measure of thy appreciation.

BTW - Just what is the point of rhetorical questions?

Maybe the commandments will cover it?

bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 28 Jun 13 - 09:09 AM

Yes, but will a chortle be considered blasphemous? Looks like you need an industry-worth of atheoligical scholars to answer difficult questions.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans pinotage
Date: 28 Jun 13 - 09:43 AM

A good wine bar on the waterfront in Cape Town. 250 by the glass. I became a resident last year on my hols.

Anyway why do we need members? We can be like The Church of England and bully government claiming anyone who doesn't declare otherwise is a de facto one of us.

As time goes by and the generally population becomes less superstitious, religions need to be more creative in their attempt at relevance.

Wr also need to learn how to pour scorn on rational people and tell them they only fill out their shopping lists as they do because Dawkins tells them to.

We need an evangelical loony sailor to help us. Any ideas?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jun 13 - 09:57 AM

Anyway why do we need members? We can be like The Church of England...

Excellent point. They claim mass membership yet only 3.8 people per service actually go to church (unless Songs Of Praise is in town, in which case the church is stuffed to the rafters). I'm just wondering about virtual services. Can one photoshop videos?

We need an evangelical loony sailor to help us. Any ideas?

Yeah, this is getting urgent. "Concerened" desperately needs a photo of him in order to get to work on the medallion. We're considering hooped fisherman's smock but no eye-patch or parrot. Pirate headgear is a possibility (though you can get a fancy-dress sailor's bonnet and matching scarf for four quid on Amazon), but good taste must at all costs prevail, of course. Problems, issues, Wacko...?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jun 13 - 10:04 AM

Er, I don't suppose we could invite Dawkins to be the third member of the Trinity? I know he isn't a woman but at least he's unbearded and he's bloody good, allegedly, at telling everyone what to think and how to live, not at all like those ultra-democratic Christian hands-off becassocked chappies. I might just check that he can wash up...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jun 13 - 10:24 AM

Looks like you need an industry-worth of atheoligical scholars to answer difficult questions.

Nah, Dave. You worry too much. I've dealt with this in my forthcoming volume "Ballightology" in which all awkward questions are niftily circumvented by means of a combination of denial, wordy obfuscation, utter basic incomprehensibility and insupportable ringfencing. I got much inspiration for this approach after trying to read a book written by Pierre Teilhard de Chardin. Bloody genius I reckon, though I didn't understand a damn word of any of it. Actually, you've changed my mind about the title. As I couldn't decide whether "Ballightology" needed a triple l, I'm simplifying things by adopting your suggestion. Henceforth it shall be known as "Shaw's Atheology: Volume The First". I'm currently struggling a little with my publisher. They demurred when I insisted that I didn't want "Ladybird Books" and a big ladybird prominently displayed on the front cover. I'll keep you posted on that one.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans blood of the Messiah
Date: 28 Jun 13 - 11:32 AM

We could always ask Dawkins' s missus.   I used to really fancy her as Dr Who's sidekick back in the '70s. I doubt anyone as lovely as Lalla Ward could have let herself go too much?

In terms of asking him if his missus is good at washing the pots and clearing up after bingo, I thought I'd let you ask him rather than me. I am learning the deniability aspects of running religions rather fast if truth be known. ...




Eee.. who'd have thought Jerk the sailor could end up being right. Atheism is a religion after all. Praise be and all that.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Jun 13 - 12:30 PM

My prediction: *Your* church will be(come) as obnoxious as any other. This is how El Ron's started and you know how *that* turned out.

Just sayin'.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans Ian
Date: 28 Jun 13 - 02:02 PM

Ours started out obnoxious so can't become what it already is. It does exactly what it says on the tin for that matter. Preys on the vulnerable, asks for their money and fobs them off with a combination of bingo on Wednesday and jam tomorrow.

And without having to believe in all that metaphysical nonsense too.

Bloody perfect if you ask me.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jun 13 - 02:03 PM

Yeah, Ebbie, you could be right, but obnoxiousness does put bums on seats. Ask Michael Ball...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 28 Jun 13 - 06:13 PM

only scanned the last few days,but did notice that musket supported hospital chaplaincy,credit due there,even if he does consider it as only a pychological aid.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Jun 13 - 11:03 PM

I don't think he is the jerk he pretends to be.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Jun 13 - 11:32 PM

Perfect, Jack.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 28 Jun 13 - 11:40 PM

Every new church is supposed to be an improvement on the old church, but they always fill the pews with the same old people.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans jerkiness
Date: 29 Jun 13 - 02:38 AM

Make sure that isn't just an extension of delusion me old salty seaman.

The old religions do appear to be monitoring the rise of the true faith. Something you want to get off your chest lads? Confession being good for the soul and all that.

Now. . Mrs Musket being a church bell ringer and all that, and breweries not having rings of bells for her and her mates (although most of our ringing friends keep breweries in business) presents us with a dilemma. Do we a) put mini rings in breweries or b) brew beer in churches?   I notice many churches and chapels are becoming houses these days so might be good to help The Church of England out of their equity crisis before poor taxpayers end up bailing them out.

The true path is strong through assimilation.

Although the post of first martyr is still up for grabs.   Anyone?




(Serious thoughts on other threads. Ridiculing Jack's thesis on this one.)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jun 13 - 06:02 AM

Hmm, with due respect to the missus (and I myself am going to learn bell-ringing in Marhamchurch soon, an act of subtle infiltration on my part, of course), having bell-ringing would not quite lend that distinctiveness we need. After all, most people who hear ringing just clasp their hands over their ears, saying "fer chrissake, not those bloody Christian zealots at it again!" and don't really look to see where the racket is coming from. I was thinking more of blasts of "We Are The Champions" at about 160 decibels. At quarter past the hour, "We". At half past, "We Are". At quarter to, We Are The", and on the hour the full thing. I think that the sentiment expressed therein would chime well (if you'll excuse the pun) with our ultimate objective of overcoming all these corrupt other so-called "faiths".

(Incidentally, MtheGM, don't go thinking that the "quarter-to" blast implies that we are all you. Perish the thought, as you've so far expressed doubts about us, calling us "boring". Naturally, you are welcome to join the fold, but, I fear, in light of your remarks, only in a very junior capacity in the first instance. I hope you hung on to your altar boy cassock. And, I remind you, even if you're not happy with that you'd better not say so. Unless you love Widnes, of course...)

By the way, there was a Messianic pun there. I expect peals of laughter, please. And hey, "peals of laughter": oh my God, there went another! Bwahahaha!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jun 13 - 06:06 AM

I had a perfect jack once. Could hoist up one side of me Morris Minor with it enough to change a wheel with no more than the twiddle of a finger and 25 seconds' twiddling. English engineering at its finest, it was. Unlike the suspension top joint.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans treble bob
Date: 29 Jun 13 - 09:36 AM

Yeah but the mistake they make is "those Christians. "

My experience is that the vast majority of bell ringers are in a cafe for coffee when the service starts.

Keep at it. I was told last year that I am possibly the most photographed nonringer in The Ringing World. Comes of marrying into bell ringing royalty apparently. ...



Betty Swollox came.         Through the interview by the way.   Bingo nights finish clean and tidy from next week.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jun 13 - 09:39 AM

Just a brief aside here: I've been noticing that militant "Fuck you!-ism" has begun to approach the threshold of becoming a religion too. Specially on the Internet. Perhaps there's a connection?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Jun 13 - 09:51 AM

Same could be said for Militant Relativism.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jun 13 - 10:01 AM

You think? Maybe so. It could make for a fascinating discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 29 Jun 13 - 10:09 AM

Have you neo-religionist lameoids seen this? Looks like you're a day late and many dollars short with your jam and bingo.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans obvious post
Date: 29 Jun 13 - 10:12 AM

Fuck you.

No, sorry. Doesn't sound as positive when you don't mean it.

Fuck me.

Ah! That's better.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 29 Jun 13 - 10:15 AM

Fuck you very much for the correction.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jun 13 - 01:23 PM

Same could be said for Militant Relativism.

Absolutely not! Argumentative uncles and aunts will not be allowed to join, don't you worry about that!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jun 13 - 01:55 PM

Heh! ;-) That's the spirit, Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans shame
Date: 29 Jun 13 - 02:07 PM

What about kissing cousins?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jun 13 - 04:19 PM

I have yet to determine the sexual stance of the New Truth (naturally, we will decide this in full consultation, Musket, though the lack of Sheffield virgins could be a minus point in your case. Or a plus point -shite, I can't decide). Sexual age discrimination will be abolished (I am 62 after all and it is nubile midriff season in Bude). I can't foresee any problems with kissing cousins at this juncture, especially if they're both ladies and it's done in public. As readers will glean, misogyny, much as I'd like to abolish it, is a must-have in any religion. Give us another two thousand years and we'll fix it, I promise. The pot towels are over there, girlies...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cryptic references
Date: 29 Jun 13 - 06:24 PM

I expect the Sheffield Wednesday goal to be virgin territory next season if that helps.

Obviously, if our religion is to sell, then sexual tittilation is necessary. Sex sells washing powder, beer and pot noodle, so salvation is no problem. See Procal Harem for details.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jun 13 - 07:10 PM

Are you suggesting that we can sin sexually to our hearts' content then cleanse ourselves in some kind of confessorial arrangement? Yeah, that'll get 'em in...

Dammit, though, it's hardly original, is it? The Catholics have been doing that for centuries... :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jun 13 - 07:19 PM

Amazing, innit, how everything turns to sex (or Hitler) in the end. As co-Messiah, I hereby decree that there shall be a complete moratorium on sex talk, starting in three months' time. That should just about allow sufficient time for everyone to talk sex to their hearts' content and for the nubile midriff season in Bude to finalise. Given a good summer, those trim girlie tums should be a lovely colour by September. Mmmm. Mysogyny rules! Commandments to come...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans body of Clapton
Date: 30 Jun 13 - 04:02 AM

Some of us don't need commandments. ...

I may be barking up the wrong tree here but isn't religion and sexual thrill the same thing? Rapture has a more temporal definition to my knowledge.

Anyway, the bingo session next Wednesday can be our cold shower trick. Dave the Gnome has gone quiet so I hope he remembers he is calling? Betty Swollox has bought the cards ready.   

We just need a load of balls now.




Jack! Goofus! You're on!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jun 13 - 07:27 AM

Well sex 'n' religion have been the twin obsessions of Catholicism for millennia, of course. No barbed wire underpants under those cassocks, eh! It's all to do with having endless illicit fun whilst pretending to be miserable. Trouble is, this only works for popes and priests. The rest of the flock haven't realised that their superiors are talking up the guilt 'n' misery shit yet hugely enjoying a quietly-prolific sex life. Well I'm proposing, with the goal of making ourselves distinct, to remove the "miserable" bit. I was concerned to hear on BH this morning of the proliferation of "multi-faith prayer rooms" in motorway service areas, hospitals and airports. Bare rooms with a prayer mat, a wooden chair and no windows. Well you're not catching me in one of them! I've taken out a short-term lease on a former janitors' room at Watford Gap in order to set up an experimental "multi-faith-and-none glee shack". There will, of course, be a bar, and I've installed a whole-wall video screen which will show endless funny bits from Airplane, Naked Gun, Blazing Saddles and all the Pink Panther films. Sexual proclivities will be satisfied by the provision of double mattresses on the floor (actually, the room's a touch on the small side, so I'll be encouraging, by the use of eye-catching diagrams, the younger, more virile punters at least to indulge in "standing-up ones" with a mattress leaning against the wall). But privacy will be eschewed: I want everyone to have fun, whether having sex or not! There'll be a special chair in the corner for, ahem, solo action, which might come in "handy" (another Messianic pun there! Bwahahaha!) for lonely old sailors, for example. Now I think I've thought of everything: as it's a motorway service area, and we're having a bar, Dave the Gnome will have to be stationed outside the room as pissed truth-seekers leave, in order to work his wine-into-water miracle on the driver. I do like the bingo concept, don't get me wrong, but we do need other ways of proliferating our infrastructure, and this one's my baby...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans bingo calling
Date: 30 Jun 13 - 07:56 AM

Oh aye, and what's wrong with bingo? perfect religious experience.

You are drawn in with the promise of riches (last week's meat raffle that remains unclaimed) and as the bloke at the front preaches Numbers I to 49, you feel closer and closer to material gain. Then all of a sudden,

Nothing.

Zilch.

Nothing to see here.

Wath on Dearne Working Mens Club has more old biddies praying on a Sunday night than the local church has a few hours earlier. ...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jun 13 - 09:24 AM

I see what you mean about the bingo. The "eyes down and look in(ward)" bit has obvious echoes of big religion, you give money away (à la collection plate) and all you get back is a custard cream and weak tea (à la communion wafer and splash of holy water on the way in). And we get the money (which we need, hence the bar in the janitorium - er, sorry, "glee shack"). OK, we'll run with that.

Right, so we've nailed bingo in Sheffield and we've bagged Watford Gap. It's a start. I haven't managed to find a barn on a farm yet for the more secretive,cultish activities. Bloody farmers round here get forty grand per year per windmill and it's made the buggers greedy. And they're all bloody stand-up-fer-Jaysus tone-deaf Methodists, which doesn't help. Any progress on rooms in breweries yet?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jun 13 - 09:52 AM

Musket, even though we're all-powerful and all that I feel we're having to do everything. We need recruits. OK, we have Dave on the miracles, Betty Swollox on the washing up and concerened on the medallion (though the bugger's gone a bit quiet. You don't think he's doing Glastonbury, do you...?). We need bar staff and someone to frisk potential converts coming to our events for smuggled rosary beards. I need a proof reader for my Atheology tome and somebody with storage for the scrolls. And someone to handle the money. Do you know anyone honest?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jun 13 - 09:54 AM

I'm not sure whether I meant rosary beads or Rosemary's beard there...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jun 13 - 01:34 PM

Hello oh mighty ones, I'm back. Been north of the border on a fact finding, beer tasting and talking bollocks, whoops, sorry, praying, mission. Did I miss anything good? Canst thou cast thy thoughts in my direction and open mine eyes to thy divine wisdom?

In the meanwhile I can report that there is no point in recruiting anywhere above Hadrian's wall. They are all heathens anyway. The only ones who may benefit from thy intervention would be the ones who worship the green and white hoops and kick seven shades out of those whom wear the royal blue. They may well be very useful in the getting people into our church/breweries, whether they want to go or not. Mmmm. On second thoughts though after an hour in close proximity to a brewery they may well not be up to thy divine standards. Or they may exceed them? I shall leave it to your munificent selves.

bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 30 Jun 13 - 01:55 PM

Never underestimate the power of a lot of stupid people in large crowds!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans large crowds
Date: 30 Jun 13 - 02:32 PM

Is that why you are not resident in Sanity at present Goofus? Too crowded for you to stand out?

I am apparently a dirty rotten stinking capitalist so I can be trusted to look after the money.

The shallow buggers who can't handle the idea of not having their delusion means you must have a different delusion have gone quiet lately.

Possibly thought about their stance and feel embarrassed......




Adnams Brewery in Southwold. We will claim it in the same way other religions claim parts of Jerusalem. Sorted.

Do you think, judging by other threads, that we should cash in on the rapture scam? It's amazing what vulnerable people will swallow if you say it with a straight face.....

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jun 13 - 02:47 PM

It's amazing what vulnerable people will swallow

You talking about the Catlicks again?

Hehehehe.

bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Jun 13 - 03:14 PM

"Every new church is supposed to be an improvement on the old church, but they always fill the pews with the same old people." Guest/Stim

I can explain that- as you know, any being that learns to love can love more. In other words, a dog that loves a human being is primed to love other humans. A child that loves his mama can love others.

See?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Jul 13 - 10:33 AM

I'll deal with love in Commandment 14 section A subsection 4(ii), but money is far more important right now. This is about getting suckers' arses on pews, or on plastic chairs in bingo halls, and cultivating a grand delusion that we can pass off as The New Truth (details are in "Shaw's Atheology - Volume The First"). Do maintain focus, people. Dave, you're calling on Wednesday night, did Musket tell you? Does anyone know where I can get frankincense?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Jul 13 - 01:06 PM

Damn! I have an accordion practice on Weds. Could I combine the two? May be entertaining...

I believe they do a good deal on frankincense out east. Just find three blokes on camels and follow them home.

BTW - We have our first stalker! - here. Well, sort of. Who would have thought that bicycles would generate such passion. Maybe we should offer salvation to those whom cycle on the pavement?

bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Jul 13 - 04:03 PM

Page 24! Do I get a prize or 100 years off my time in purgatory or something?

bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans bingo calling
Date: 01 Jul 13 - 06:28 PM

Less than 48 hours to your calling Dave.

Br brave.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Jul 13 - 06:57 PM

Shit Dave, whaddya mean, "accordion practice on Wednesday"? Oh my ball lightning! Musket, did we say anything about accordion players (or, as pete would say, accordionists)? Are we keeping this friggin' thing pure or not? Keep calm: I'll see you in Sheffield on Wednesday at 7. I'll shout the numbers if you can handle the balls. Christ, talk about one man doing the jobs of two men. Dave, I seriously want to see the rest of your CV before we take this thing any further. I feel that my trusting nature has been taken advantage of on this one. Accordion practice my arse. Musket, there are engineering works on the line between Cornwall and the north. Can you track me down a chariot?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Jul 13 - 08:32 PM

Musket, I know we know everything, but can you give me the bingo hall postcode for my satnav? Belt 'n' braces an' all that, yeah?

Have we got a scheme for petrol money by the way? I'm not a frigging charitable institution, you know!





Am I?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 13 - 02:55 AM

Damn! I didn't think I would be found out so early. Should have known better, dealing with deities and all that.

Rest of my 2CV is in the scrapyard, I'm afraid. Piston broke. I have a Ford now, play accordion, guitar, concertina and tin whistle - All very badly. Hence the need for practice.

Could you just give me some penance? Maybe having to drink 6 pints of Watneys Red Barrel? Or eat at a Little Chef?

Mea Culpa. Mea Culpa. Mea Maxima Culpa

bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans real instruments
Date: 02 Jul 13 - 04:16 AM

Careful Steve.. we all seeing all hearing types have to be consistent.

Is this a good time for your confession re mouth organs?

Bingo. . Err the first one, I shall be with you in spirits cos I am still on my hols in Southwold till the end of the week.

Pilgrimage to Adnams brewery tomorrow.

Sheffield doesn't need satnav.   Follow the star to the north and there it shall rest over the area known as S6, ,hallowed turf.   If you get it wrong and end up near Bramall Lane, you will know you are lost as the pigeons around that end of the city fly upside down.

Nothing worth shitting on.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 13 - 06:38 AM

Mind you, on reflection, 6 pints of Watneys Red Barrel would be a cruel and unusual punishment. Probably banned under the Geneva convention. I'll do my time cleaning the bingo hall in compression stockings instead.

bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jul 13 - 07:43 PM

...play accordion, guitar, concertina and tin whistle - All very badly. Hence the need for practice.

Well, Dave (and I speak here ex cathedra, though I have to admit that the "cathedra" in question was once a polytechnic), you are partially redeemed as, uniquely among accordion players, you admit that you are very bad on it. I will console you with the unassailable fact that so is every other bloody accordion player on the planet. At least you didn't have bodhrans on your list. We need every goat we can lay our hands on for sacrifices (virgins cost money) and I'm thinking of making the goat our sacred animal, immune from being skinned, alive or dead. You see? I'm ingeniously combining religious ritual with doing the world a bloody big favour! What other hands-on, modern-minded Messiah do you know who works with such aplomb! Facing the truth about your accordion deficit is half the battle. The other half is to throw the accordion away. There are jokes involving accordion and skips, but as the Messiah I naturally have a bottomless well of original jokes and puns so I won't recycle the one about perfect pitch. Or I suppose you could raise a few quid on eBay with it which means we can buy more bingo cards and custard creams. Let me put it this way: I will be very disappointed with you indeed (and you would be correct, and wise, to read that as a scarily messianic euphemism) if I didn't see you, balls in hand, ready to call at the bingo in less than 24 hours. As I wisely stated before, accordion practice my arse. You copping out for "accordion practice" is one thing, but now Musket has abandoned me to man the bingo almost alone (completely alone if Swollox phones in), and it wasn't even my bloody idea. Musket, at least have the good grace to apprise me of the location of the bingo cards and those stubby pens we nicked from Argos. And the custard creams, fer chrissake. This is a crisis! Where's the key to the cupboard?

And don't think I didn't notice your little swipe at the harmonica. I hope you're not getting messianically jealous. The harmonica is a form of pure pocket entertainment. There is another form, but I expect Wacko'll tell you all about that.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jul 13 - 08:22 PM

Mind you, on reflection, 6 pints of Watneys Red Barrel would be a cruel and unusual punishment.

Indeed, but at least you wouldn't be pissed.

I'm struggling here. I've just realised that I don't actually know what bingo is. Shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 03:06 AM

Hey - It was your fellow Messiah that brought up gob-irons. But you would know that of course. I also play those badly as well... And you could add Mandolin to the list of things I can make people cringe with. You are quite right about the bodhran. They say try everything but Morris dancing and incest but, seeing as I have been known to run round in circles waving white hankies (in my pre revelation days of course) I decided to miss out the Irish boom box instead.

Does having balls in hand, ready to call bingo, involve physically being in Sheffield or, with the powers vested in me, am I allowed to perform a bit of astral traveling?

bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 03:56 AM

There must be a thesis topic for an ambitious student in one of those in-faculties of non-subjects in one of the 'new' universities, on the precise point at which any thread which was once worth reading degenerates into a series of unfunny facetiously laboured non-points exchanged by a mini-coterie of self-satisfied self-abusers. (Some of my best friends...)

Such researchers should be immediately directed to this one as an xtra-fine instance.

I am, once again, aware that you do not wish to know that.

So I shall once again kindly leave the stage.

☺〠☺~M~☺〠☺

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans Clapton
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 04:44 AM

Blasphemy, pure unadulterated blasphemy.   Your reasoned logic will get you nowhere in faith matters Michael. ...



Argos pens? Bollocks.   You have been a southern softy too long. . The true bingonian uses a thick stubby highlighter, avaliable from Eastgate market, Ingoldmells Lincs. Next to the store selling fake viagra and steps for your static caravan.

Enjoy the bingo. I shall be having a somewhat more intellectually stimulating evening. You see, I have appointed myself chief nuncio to Mammon so shall be dining at The Great British Larder, one of the finest restaurants around. Being a sucker and representing suckers; not the same thing old chap. What?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 05:24 AM

Is it OK to be in a Charcuterie instead of mini-coterie? I am happy with a bit of self-satisfied self-abuse as long as I can get a good sausage...

bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 06:09 AM

I like your style, Michael. We could definitely have you on board in some senior capacity. Not quite sure what as yet. Do you have access to a fancy-dress hire shop?

I'm working on a title for the thesis you suggest. I may have to shorten it eventually, but it goes something like "A method for both shutting up and taking the piss out of deluded eejits who try to accuse atheists of having a religion". I think we've proved the point quite well, not least because we're demonstrating that we can't even organise a bingo night, let alone set up a new instrument of mass oppression. Well, except that Musket appears to be able to organise a piss-up in a brewery...

By the way, Musket, Swollox has phoned in with the shits. She made the sandwiches on Sunday night but I might have to throw them away now. I don't think she's that hygienic to be honest. That leaves me on my own unless Dave butts out of accordion practice. I mean, shove t'brush up me arse and I'll sweep t'bloody floor while I'm at it...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 06:10 AM

Is it OK to be in a Charcuterie instead of mini-coterie?

I don't care what you wear as long as you show up!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 06:26 AM

‎
G O D   O R    N O T H I N G


‎יהוה

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 07:50 AM

Is there an O and an F missing from the above?

bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 08:09 AM

Michael, naturally you'd be welcome as the third Trinity member. Thing is, we had sort of specified a woman for the role. Tokenism is one of our watchwords. However, as long as you have a good head of hair that can be permed, a relatively high-pitched voice and access to the fancy dress shop, we promise to give it thought. I don't suppose you can do a ton of sandwiches in a hurry, can you?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans pickled eggs
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 09:19 AM

You don't need tons of sandwiches, just a couple of loaves and fishes. This is fantasy don't forget, so we work by fantasy rules.

I have it on good authority that Betty Swollox only makes sandwiches with her right hand, using her left one to wipe her arse, as scriptures dictate.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 09:34 AM

I found some pickled eggs in cupboard the other day - Dated December 2011. Tried one and it was fine.

Have you ever tried feeding someone with a couple of loaves and fishes? I mean, fantasy it may be, but what about "I have a gluten intolerance" or "I'm a vegan" coupled with the impossibility of figuring out who ordered what, how much it was and who had four bottles of Blue Nun (I dunno anyone who would drink it - do you?) Anyway, raising from the dead, water into wine and the odd transubstantiation is peanuts compared to arranging a meal for more than 4. If we can manage that we will be fighting potential electrolytes off at the door.

bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 10:40 AM

You don't need tons of sandwiches, just a couple of loaves and fishes. This is fantasy don't forget, so we work by fantasy rules.

You can say that, but Dave the miracle man hasn't even perfected his wine-to-water one yet (I was there for his first run-through and the water tasted suspiciously like piss to me, and he fell off his bloody chair half way through the testing). And I refuse to eat fish butties without butter. It's OK for you being all can-do from Adnams brewery but we're struggling here. Can't get the staff and Swollox has been hogging the lav all morning. It bloody stinks in here and I can't find the key to the bingo cupboard. I've met messiahs like you before, you know.   

I have it on good authority that Betty Swollox only makes sandwiches with her right hand, using her left one to wipe her arse, as scriptures dictate.

Yeah but she picks her nose with her right hand. When I challenged her about it she said she wasn't gonna put her left hand anywhere near her nose because it stank of shite. I do have some slight doubts about her level of hygiene, I have to tell you. Jeez, there's a queue of biddies outside the bingo hall door already. Have we got any Werther's Originals?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 10:42 AM

...who had four bottles of Blue Nun (I dunno anyone who would drink it - do you?)

Yeah, me. Not quite enough for a whole evening but you don't notice the taste by the time you get to the third bottle. Or do we need it for communion wine? Can you make more from water?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 10:56 AM

My Astral self has just come back from the bingo hall. Bloomin' 'eck. You're right Messiah S. (1 and 2 was getting confusing so I am trying S & M. I have heard it can be fun)

It's bedlam out there. I tried to entertain the queue down with a bit of manifestation. One old biddy went cross eyed and fainted. Another ran off screaming about things beyond the grave and the rest saw it as an opportunity to try and get their ailments cured. I was lucky to get away with nothing worse than a bloody nose from a runaway bunion straighter and severe shock from the language.

Blimey. This here religion stuff can cause a right kerfuffle can't it. Wonder why no-one has noticed that before?

bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 12:42 PM

At least you're out there on crowd control. We're heroically managing things here whilst Musket is downing his ninth pint of Adnams. One of the biddies wants the bog but Swollox won't come out. She's groaning like mad in there. You'll have to call the numbers very loudly to drown her out. God, those big, rasping farts of hers are gonna have to stop, I tell you. Bloody women. Do NOT tell me you're still going to accordion practice. This is exactly how schisms start. Is it still 999 for the cops?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket mellow
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 12:58 PM

How's it going chaps?

Good good. Fight the good fight and all that. Blessed are the Brians.

So... As you seem to be managing without me, I shall head off for tonight's fine cuisine. Excellent brewery tour. Pretenders to the crown of Lord are nothing on Adnams when it comes to turning water into, well not wine but definitely beer...

Hic! Yer me besht mate, you are.. Hadaway & shite...........

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 02:47 PM

Then big rasping farts ARE the accordion practice. Betty went home an hour ago. Is it really that bad? Maybe I should take up the bodhran. Our spelling checker suggested Bodhidharma for bodhran - What the heck has a Buddhist monk got to do with it? Hope you guys are not riding on the back of someone else's philosophy?

I believe the number of the Cops is 666 but that could be from somewhere else.

bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 02:54 PM

Hey! Just read a bit more about Bodhidharma. Seems he founded the Shaolin Temple. Could be a handy bloke in a tight spot, grasshopper. Do we need a token Chinaman?

bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 03:09 PM

One thing you seem to have plenty of is tokin' Rastamen.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 03:14 PM

Sinners, the lot of you. Just wait till I get my Divine Hands on you ...

‎יהוה

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket between courses
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 04:09 PM

Just waiting for cheese board.

Mrs Musket called out for a worky type phone call so free to talk bollocks for a while.

See Steve? I told you Spunky would be interested. We need someone who can preach our gospel without sniggering or blushing.

A true believer is amongst us.

Praise be!

I



Hope Mrs Musket has a cold.   The samphire under my halibut combined with the chestnut sauce. ..   

Mind you, we priests can fart at will. Some dozy buggers will take it as a positive sign.

I love this religion lark.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 05:29 PM

Phew, that was tough. 4 and 5, 9 (C, Cmaj, G, Gmaj) Two fat ladies, Yes I do mean you! (G, Gmaj, F, Fmaj) All the 6's, 78 (A, Am, G, Gmaj)
Thanks for the miracle of making everyone deaf, Joint Messiahs. Hmmm. Going back to Jack's tokin... Joint Messiahs? Yes?

Gladys Over. Maybe she could be the token woman if Betty has a funny turn again?

bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 07:38 PM

Divine hands my arse. If only you could have got your "divine hands" on the Mother's Pride, marge and Dairylea earlier on we wouldn't be in this bloody mess. At least the hall is still just about standing but the place is full of fish and chip wrappers and Swollox left the bog in a terrible state. And Dave didn't tell you, did he, that he dropped his ball bag in the car park and couldn't find all of 'em, so anyone relying on numbers, 2, 18, 34, 67 and 85 didn't have a cat in hell's chance (they must have been curious but at least they didn't suss it. Thick Yorkshire gits). We made a net profit on the bingo of £3 12s 6d but it's all gone on the 84 bin bags we had to buy, along with the bottle of Asda own-brand pine disinfectant for the lav. We've been served a noise nuisance notice by Sheffield Council (bloody tyke jobsworths) and ten old biddies were arrested for affray after they discovered that they all had identical bingo cards. I mean, what TWAT thought it was a great idea to save money by photocopying 'em! I'm going home now, that is if I can get through the crowd of vicious-looking demonstrators outside. Militant atheism my arse. I'm off to join the bloody Mounties.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans Clapton
Date: 04 Jul 13 - 02:50 AM

And I shall set up the reformed whatever the hell we call ourselves. ...

Perhaps the bingo was a bad idea. A bit too much like other religions in terms of promises of material reward that gullible people fall for but it is always the club secretary's missus who wins the meat platter.

We should have stuck to promising an afterlife where adherents are in paradise but thats not being enough, non believers get tortured by a devil for eternity. You can't promise the former without the latter as it panders to the greed and hard wired nastiness of shallow people.

How's about we book a turn for Saturday night? Some '70s club comics wanting to make a bob or two in order to get new hard disks for their laptops. Just the thing for acolytes, misogyny, queer bashing and casual racism.   Our pews will overflow.   Might even convert a few Methodists with that offer. ...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jul 13 - 02:54 AM

Yea, OK, Messiah S, I did lose some balls but did you really need to replace them with lightning balls? I thought the old dear with the yellow cardie and wonky glasses was a gonner when it rolled across the ceiling. Good job she bent over to pick up the bit of fish she dropped. Mind you, I am not sure which I would rather face, a ball of lightning or a piece of greasy fish that had been on that floor.

I suppose we have to re-think the bingo as a money making scheme. How about insisting on 10% of all earnings? I think it's the Jehovahs Witlesses or the Morons that do something like that and get away with it.

bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket being business like
Date: 04 Jul 13 - 12:09 PM

As we are twice as good as them, we should hold out for 20%.

You know it makes sense.

Here's a quote from another thread from Jerk the Sailor;

"Musket. I'd love to join your religion and had over the deeds to my property."

Told him to bollocks. Faith requires credibility.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 04 Jul 13 - 03:39 PM

Just when you thought this thread couldn't get any worse, along comes musket and his little chums dave the gnome and steve shaw with even more of their purile crap.

Muscrat sans brain is even nicking my names for me nautical pal now.

Be nice to see some thing original on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jul 13 - 03:55 PM

Jesus, con-serened, I bloody LIKE your style! We have misogyny, we have tokenism and we have bingo misery. Your bile is exactly what we need to complete the formula. Have you finished that Wacko plank-walking medallion yet? Once that's done and in mass production I'm thinking of putting you on gospel writing. I'll give you a template that you must promise to write totally inconsistently with. I need you to provide the raison d'être for my complex atheological tome. By the way, old chap, we know who you are! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jul 13 - 03:58 PM

Did you know that an anagram of 'concerened' is 'No credence'. Quite apt I thought.

How about a tax on stupidity? We could really make a fortune on that.

bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 13 - 08:53 AM

Hey, Messiahs S&M, I have been contemplating my navel all day and some very strange noises were occurring. Apart from the usual that is. I think it may have been a demon whispering in my lughole. Are you REALLY all knowing and all powerful? If so, how come you allow things like suffering and war. You know - Pretty much like Wednesday night.

Or do bad things only happen to non-believers?

Can you smite our enemies with that ball lightening? If so, there is a bloke who lets his dog shit outside our garden every Thursday that could do with sorting out. If you are too busy for the smiting bit I am happy to stand in and be your lightning ball handler, as it were.

bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jul 13 - 11:56 AM

We're working on all those things. Don't be impatient - what's five minutes in an eternity? :-)

If so, there is a bloke who lets his dog shit outside our garden every Thursday that could do with sorting out.

Definitely a Christian. They're only good on Sundays, you see.

Incidentally, I just had a phone call from the bingo hall. They didn't discover until this morning that Swollox threw up in the cutlery drawer on Wednesday. It's set rock-hard now on the knives and forks. They want money, and we're barred. Bingo my arse, Musket!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans Clapton
Date: 05 Jul 13 - 12:39 PM

They barred us? Aren't we supposed to throw the money lenders from the temple?

Getting it arse about face again.

Just returned this afternoon from my pilgrimage to find the builders have been overzealous and instead of a bit of prep whilst we were gone, the bloody kitchen has disappeared.

Holy takeaways for the time being. Manna from The Great Wall. ..

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jul 13 - 01:07 PM

Just returned this afternoon from my pilgrimage to find the builders have been overzealous and instead of a bit of prep whilst we were gone, the bloody kitchen has disappeared.

Yeah, this just goes to show, along with the bingo fiasco, that we really must get this omnipresence malarkey sorted.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 13 - 03:40 PM

The holy builders? Wow! I didn't think the new faith was that far advanced. If you have got builder to do anything you are indeed blessed!

BTW - This is post 1193. 1+1+9=11x3=33,3x3=9. 1x1=1x9=9x3=27,2+7=9 Oh, man. The thinginess of it all. We must be at the dawn of the age of a query house. I need to find the holy joint now to open my cosmic consciousness, oh yea man!

bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jul 13 - 07:13 AM

I'm thinking of adopting Here There And Everywhere as our messianic anthem of omnipresence, a sort of How Great Thou Art of militant atheism. I'll try McCartney again later on. When I rang last night he was out playing bingo.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Musket
Date: 06 Jul 13 - 08:38 AM

Onward rational soldiers!
Marching unto the pub
With the cross of the village
Asking you to keep yer bloody noise down! Rhyme? Waddyu mean rhyme? I'll rhyme yer arse if you don't stop ramming yer lack of belief down peoples's throats! Bloody Dawkins Botherers....

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jul 13 - 08:56 AM

The jobsworth from the bingo hall is still after me. Can anyone lend me fifty quid?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cash
Date: 06 Jul 13 - 02:02 PM

I gave all mine to a bloke wanting to convert our followers.

I'll see what turns up in the collection. A vicar I knew had more cash in the pub on a Sunday night so I will use his logic.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jul 13 - 07:29 PM

Bollocks to the logic. Just nick his friggin' wallet.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 07 Jul 13 - 07:14 AM

I cannot Believe it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You know appear to be talking in code.. with to many apropriase epithets thrown in for my taste..shame on you lot ,specially Dave The Gnob..sorry Gnome.

Muscrat sans brain has now surpassed jerk the sailor in his crassness and ranting buffoonery.

Bollocks to the logic. Just nick his friggin' wallet.- steve Shaw

i can appreciate the athiest stance but do you now belive in thieving as part of your godless activities,,

You don't have to patronise us believers by foul and inappropriate language .

I think you lot must be on something..that, or you have really lost the plot

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Musket
Date: 07 Jul 13 - 07:54 AM

On something? Onto something may be more appropriate. Patronising believers is something other churches do. We make ours help with the bingo.

Thieving is not necessarily a Godless activity. The Vatican is full of acquired "too good for heathens" artefacts.

Thanks for the compliment. Surpassing the master is normally cause for a cool beer.

Anyway, must rush. About to watch the British champion / Scottish loser (delete when appropriate) in the Wimbledon final.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jul 13 - 10:31 AM

Can we get the thread to post 1234 and then stop. I believe it to be a holy number. I suspect some who has no knowledge of the English language will want to cock that up but we can just ignore it and bask in the knowledge that we are helping the less fortunate.

bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans Clapton
Date: 07 Jul 13 - 10:53 AM

Ok. This is my contribution. A couple to go.

That's the problem with these religions. The adherents have to put up with those who don't know the rules. A fiver says some god botherer will post 1235.

How's about 12345?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jul 13 - 01:46 PM

A fiver says some god botherer will post 1235.

I'll have a fiver on that too if I may. Any odds on who it will be? :-)

bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,concerned.
Date: 07 Jul 13 - 05:00 PM

Concerened..? You bet I am!! You now appear to have added gambling to the rest of your godless habits..and as for batting balls around..nah..no hope for any of yer..at least jerk the sailor for all his faults..and that does include his maritime pretensions and posings..has not stooped to pretend to like this petite bourgoise hockey knocking..more overpaid so called sportspersons..it would be intresting to see how much tax these lot are AVOIDING?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jul 13 - 07:51 PM

Jaysus Christ, concerened, I effing LOVE your style and attitude, babe!!! I think you are exactement the contrarian voice we need in our new sect. Hey, lads, can't you jest see it?? We state things, he demurs with BARBS par excellence! When have you seen a religion like that before! Contrived internal strife as dogma!

Shame about Swollox, Musket, but I take it from your taciturn stance apropos of my earlier anti-Swollox polemic that you agree to her sacking. I need to hoodwink people at our meetings, not poison the bastards. I'm rethinking stuff all the time here. Now this might sound like a peak too far (like a tyke trying to ascend Pendle), but I think we need concerened on board, big time. Yeah. Can we ditch the token woman thing about the third member of the Trinity...and get concerened into that much-coveted spot? He wont like me telling y'all this, but he loves dressing up as...a woman!! Get that frickin' beard off him and we're bloody there, innit! What's not to like! And, concerened, Musket and me, being all-friggin' knowing, know who you are! And we love you for it! Sort of! Grrr! (we are men, you know).

And we are detecting something of a soft spot for Wacko in your posts. Firm up, man, for Christ's sake, will you?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans Clapton
Date: 08 Jul 13 - 06:25 AM

Thought it was spunky at first but he doesn't use big words in the same eloquent manner as concerned.

Fully agree that concerned can be our bitch. Err token woman. But etiquette and all that, shouldn't Dave get first dibs at not knowing how to reverse into a parking space?

I've written up the script by the way for our contrite apology. I notice that the main Christian religions are constantly issuing apologies for lack of safeguarding those they control, so thought I'd develop an off the shelf one ready for when the press start sniffing.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jul 13 - 08:24 AM

Bearing in mind that the difference between male and female Gnomes is negligible anyway I suppose I could consider it...

bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 08 Jul 13 - 09:17 AM

So how do gnomes work out who pockets the car keys when going to the pub?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jul 13 - 11:08 AM

"Not knowing how to reverse into a parking space"? You mean, "not knowing how to reverse at all and refusing to even try when there's a wide bit three yards behind them but not one for half a mile behind you"? Gotta toughen up the misogyny slant, Musket. Here's another goodie: "Women drivers may not have many accidents but they don't half bloody cause a lot of 'em." I'm thinking that we need good stuff like this in our catechism. Embed it into our stated dogma, know what I mean? The emancipation of political incorrectness apropos of the weaker sex should be central to our doctrine, and it won't half make us popular with 50% of the population, a damn sight more than the C of E ever manages.

Anyway, here's a related treat from your big-hearted Messiah for anyone who hasn't seen it already. http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/?p=397&print=1

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket in 70s comic mode
Date: 08 Jul 13 - 05:14 PM

They don't have accidents but see plenty in their rear view mirrors! Boom boom!

You only need to beat 6% in order to have a better claim to having a vote in The Lords. Lying to Christians doesn't matter apparently, so we can browbeat the buggers.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Jul 13 - 06:44 PM

" Lying to Christians doesn't matter apparently,"

Citing yourself as an authority? From a statement on this very thread no less!!

You and Steve certainly use the same playbook. "Because I sayeth" is a very demigod like thing to say. Keep up the good work. You'll get there.

Keep in mind that music is what keeps them in the pews. I know that Shaw plays the harmonica. But y'all are gonna need a bigger organ to satisfy the typical modern church lady.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Jul 13 - 06:46 PM

"
Keep in mind that music is what keeps them in the pews. I know that Shaw plays the harmonica. But y'all are gonna need a bigger organ to satisfy the typical modern church lady. "

Think "pipe", not "mouth"!!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jul 13 - 08:07 PM

Behave your bloody self, wacko. You're addressing Messiahs here. You do realise, don't you, that forty million medallions depicting you walking the plank are already out there? If you're not actually shitting yourself it's only because you probably happen to have stuffed something rather unusual up your maritime arse. Your face, possibly.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Jul 13 - 02:02 AM

You would be more pleasant if you played a bigger organ.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans wurlitzer
Date: 09 Jul 13 - 02:17 AM

Well Jerk. You are a Christian and I have a huge organ. Would I lie to you?

It wouldn't be fair to say who, but I had a gentleman's bet on a pm that you would still be reading this thread and all I had to do was mention lying to Christians and your cage would start rattling.

Should have put a fiver on it.

Anyway, you can't be the Messiah. You are ordained to be the Messiah's agent. Mark Twain said so.   He said the first rotarian was the first person to call John the Baptist Jack.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jul 13 - 02:51 AM

Would an accordion do instead of a big organ? I can push it in and out all evening if required.

bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Jul 13 - 03:22 AM

Why wouldn't I do either Mr. Mather? I started the thread and your dishonesty needs pointing out once in a while.


Have your friend PM Me. I'll bet him that you will never grow up and stop calling childish names.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans truth
Date: 09 Jul 13 - 09:34 AM

Ok. You got me there.

Jerk.
Seaman Stains
Whacko
Jack the prat
Rt Rev Admiral Whackoff

By the way, he's your friend too. Or at least you have been known to quote him and agree with him.

Just out of interest, I would happily say I am a Christian if it got my children in a state school of my choice, and until a UK government reverses the outrageous faith state schools, most people do. But on a technicality, both my sons went to a comprehensive school with no religion rammed down their throats. So I never did say that, as I said at the time, my mate did and in similar circumstances I would. My taxes pay for state education, not the millions held in Church of England trust funds.

I answer to a higher authority. My responsibility to give my children a good start in life.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Jul 13 - 01:42 PM

A good start in life is teaching them to lie?

Lie to their teachers?

Lie to their classmates?

Having them face up to the humiliation once they are inevitably caught?

All to get, as you put it, get "religion rammed down their throats."

What a profoundly stupid and amoral point of view.

You certainly appear to have the psychopathy to start your own cult. I shudder to think where this thread might lead.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket teaching ignorant foreigners
Date: 09 Jul 13 - 02:38 PM

They don't ram religion down throats you prat. They are not allowed to. Neither are they allowed to discriminate on delusion, but they do. Complaints that potential pupil's parents are asked if they believe in God are on public record.

So nobody is wanting their children in a religious school and neither are they joining such things.

If you don't understand other cultures, don't make yourself look a fool.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jul 13 - 02:56 PM

Have your friend PM Me

Excuse Me, but only Messiahs are to use capitals when talking about Themselves. Never let Me catch you doing that again.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Jul 13 - 03:16 PM

I wonder where I go the idea that YOU thought that religion was being RAMMED DOWN THIER throats.


"But on a technicality, both my sons went to a comprehensive school with no religion rammed down their throats"

Its really not much challenge debating you when you can't remember what you said in your previous post.

Sad... so sad.....

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jul 13 - 03:31 PM

Well, I understood it. But I would I suppose, being in the know so to speak.

Quite simple really. Messiah M would have told his own version of the truth should he have been faced with the dilemma of sending his children to a school of an alternate religion but with a good academic record, or one with no religion but poor performance. I would hope that any God would do the same for his own. As it happened that dilemma was avoided by cleverly engineering the education system so his children could go to a good academy with no religion, or sans religion as our Lord spoketh.

Now, if I, a lowly electrolyte with little understanding of Gods, can figure that one out, why cannot le Matelot? I am getting closer to the opinion that the sooner the sacrifice is made and the medallions begin to take meaning, the better.

bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

PS - I can now play 'We'll all gather at the river' on concertina. I hope that my meagre contribution will be taken as the theme to witness the sacrifice?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jul 13 - 03:33 PM

PPS - Only 10 posts to go until the mystical number 1234. 1+2+3+4=10, 1+0=1, the number of the true faith!

just bollocks this time but no worse that the rest...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans blood of the Messiah
Date: 09 Jul 13 - 04:17 PM

Bless you my gnome like son.

I find it fascinating how politicians expect god botherers to play by the rules and god botherers expect to write the rules.

The true faith cannot come soon enough.   

Oh, as I am a Messiah, quoting my real name is punishable by ripping out your tongue etc. See freemasonry for details.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Jul 13 - 04:28 PM

"a lowly electrolyte "

Are you a member of the Order of the Salty Dog?

Interesting story behind that. The Miracle of the Salty Dog is told thusly.

Its master bought "How to teach your Dog Quantum Physics" which the dog immediately ate. A few days thereafter the dog shat out two testicle shaped turds which it sat on and attached in place of original equipment removed at the master's behest. The result being that the Salty Dog smells better than the master in spite of its nonstandard equipment and it continues to know more than the master about Schrodinger's Cat and about cats in general.

One noteworthy aside, when the dog drags its arse on the carpet, a static charge is built up in the pseudo-nuts. When it discharges, some call it "Balls Lightning."

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jul 13 - 06:24 PM

Now, gnome my son, Musket Their Lord, and other interested and sentient fellows, we have here a bit of a phenomenon. Wacko Jacko is attempting to add "humour". I mean, oh dear. Naturally, it isn't working, because (a) he isn't funny, (b) he's from the wrong side of the pond, (c) he's probably a woman of sorts. As know, women can neither park cars nor tell jokes. I know these things because they're covered on p.43 of our catechism. Wacko reminds me very much of that Match Of The Day joke:

"Hey, dad, did Gary Lineker spend a lot of time on board ships?"

No, sonny. He was a football legend. Why did you ask me that?"

"Because every time he comes on Match Of The Day you shout out 'Oi, Linker, you anchor...'"

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jul 13 - 06:27 PM

Messianic errors there were caused by the fact that I'd thought, in my eternal wisdom, that I'd hit preview. Clearly not, innit.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans Clapton
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 01:21 AM

Ah. The problem is that he isn't trying humour but humor.

A bit of a difference you see.

We need an ambassador from Dumbfuckistan I suppose, so best to get used to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 02:13 AM

I'll bump all of y'all into the 30s.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 02:49 AM

"Wacko Jacko is attempting to add "humour". I mean, oh dear. Naturally, it isn't working, because (a) he isn't funny, (b) he's from the wrong side of the pond, "

This from someone who thinks "Monty Python" was one of those full frontal dancers from Sheffield.

The same someone beating this "start a religion" horse long after is staved to death from lack of outside interest.

You and Muskian talking about it are so unfunny, I am starting to think you are serious.

Applied for tax free status yet?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 02:53 AM

Jack 12.32

And it came to pass that the number before the number before the number was reached.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 02:54 AM

12.33 Then the Number before the Number.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 03:00 AM

And The dog saw that the number was 1234. And the dog licked its pseudonuts and rejoiced and the over and done ness of the thread being apparent the dog was pleased and wagged its tail. The tail thumped quietly on the carpet.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 03:53 AM

Ahhhh, so le matelot was being funny AND clever in trying to steal the holy number. But it has backfired. As is the way of all faiths, should a prediction prove false, it is very simple to re-write the holy scriptures to suit the new circumstance. So, Purgatory no longer exists; we no longer have to fast before receiving the holy sacrament and, due to a typographical error resulting in the least significant digit being lost, the holy number is now 12345. 1+2+3+4+5=15, 1+5=6. 6, representing the mark of the best... So, monsieur, the Jacques on you.

bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans blood of the Messiah
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 05:09 AM

Notice that?

Our holy decree that neutered dogs licking testicles they haven't got being a sign that dogs are capable of religion concept has rattled someone's cage.

Other than the failed bingo, which obviously lacked my expertise, the new religion seems to be getting stronger by the post.   We have come through the 1234 revelations scenario for which we must thank Brother Jerk, and we have good progress on the money laundering and setting up offshore accounts.   Less successful I'm afraid, is the abuse department. They have the disadvantage of not existing so on those matters, older religions will always have the edge on us.

Mind you, the discrimination and misogyny directorate have reported encouraging results. We told Betty Swollox we only gave redundancy to males so we saved lots of well misappropriated pennies there.

A workshop is being set up on how to lie to Christians.   The concept is easy. Just promise them what cannot physically be delivered. They are used to that sort of thing, falling for it most Sundays.

Atheist Liaison suffered a setback when we told them they all used to follow our religion but were traumatised by it. They unreasonably refused to accept our explanation.   The set of heathen c

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 01:56 PM

And the dog saw that its master was a lying hypocrite, again. The dog wept.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 02:51 PM

Gotta give Wacko full credit for the fundamental depth of his shallowness, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 04:12 PM

Shallow fundamentalists eh? Now there's an idea...


bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 06:43 PM

We need a demon figure. Someone not important enough to be a threat but who we can at least tut-tut at, if you see what I mean. Someone who's all at sea with his notions. Someone to whom you can say "I'll get the sails down, you anchor". Someone who likes to yank the plank before walking it. Someone who can be to us what Mary Magdalene was to Jaysus and his merry men (grrr).


Wacko...?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 07:34 PM

HELLO SAILOR!

Bollocks!

Ooops sorry, didn't mean to take the name in vain!

Don T. Penitent (I used to charge more, but the campers wouldn't stump up the higher rate).

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 07:58 PM

"Penitent". I get it, Don!! An almost messianic-style pun if you don't mind my saying so! I think you could well have a role here. We hate political correctness, as you know, and we cheerfully espouse misogyny. We're taking our cue from the Tories who spout disgustingly bad and indigestible populist stuff in order to gain what their bereft policies can't - votes! Bums on seats, what what!! It has been noted in the Palace Of The Messiahs (OK, a bingo hall just outside Sheffield that we get for ten quid on Thursdays) that you have a bit of a "thing" about cyclists. Well that happens to be bloody perfect! I've already arranged a date for a televisual interview on Beeb Five in which you and some bloke from Hertford (I think) called Keith (or something) will be invited to slug it out. "Keith" has agreed as long as you promise not to mention Palestine or Jim Carroll. Are we on or what?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket thinking it through
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 07:17 AM

This tv interview. We need a token woman on the panel so we can patronise. Jerk! What are you like in stockings and sussywenders? You don't have to say anything intelligent so should be right up your street. If anything does get right up your street it serves you right, dressing like that.

Bloody hell, this religion lark writes itself! Just leave your cheques blank on the way out folks.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 08:00 AM

Pretty dull viewing though. Just watching two entrenched positions, even if we do have the glamour of Jill the Sailor. How about we get it on the Jeremy Kyle show instead? Not that I watch such things, non-Heaven forbid, but I have heard about it from some lower class acquaintances. We could have Mr Kyle providing high-drama lie detector results. Audience (congregation?) members chipping in. Mothers-in-Law slugging it out. Could be a onto something here. Could we get Jeremy sainted by any chance?

Another idea. Talking about lower classes, How about Katy Hopkins as the token woman? She has now made the bold step of saying she would not let her children (Poppy and India) play with children with stupid names such as Chantelle or Brooklyn as they are obviously from lower class families. She hates anyone called Derek or Mavis and she stood in for Malcolm McLaren in 'I'm a celebrity'. Who could have more perfect qualifications?

bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 08:08 AM

...and talking of Sainting people. Can Ted Edwards be a saint too? I was chatting to him about the Da Vinci code some years back and said I could not believe that so many people saw it as factual. Quick as a flash he came back with 'the Bible has got away with it for Millennia' :-) The guy really is a genius, even after his stroke. Look up Ted Edwards, Folk Singer if you don't know him. DON'T follow Ted Edwards on Amazon as I did. Nearly got me fired!

bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 12:05 PM

""Well that happens to be bloody perfect! I've already arranged a date for a televisual interview on Beeb Five in which you and some bloke from Hertford (I think) called Keith (or something) will be invited to slug it out. "Keith" has agreed as long as you promise not to mention Palestine or Jim Carroll. Are we on or what?""

Sorry Steve,

1. I'm not the right guy for the job, since I actually do have faith, though emphatically not religion, not even yours I'm afraid.

2. I don't as you rather gently put it "have a thing about cyclists". I have a thing about irresponsible, aggressive and/or dangerous cyclists. I also have a thing about people who will go to any lengths to minimise the size of that problem and who persist in saying that it is in some way insignificant.

3. I have no intention whatever of allowing KAoH to set the agenda for any meeting televised or not, and would in fact rather spend an hour in the company of Nigel Farage and Nick Griffin. They are at least honestly racist.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 12:15 PM

Tsk, tsk, Don. Using another thread to put forward your agenda on something totally unrelated. Despicable!

I think Don is a perfect candidate, Messiahs S&M. Will do anything to win converts. Just the kind of missionary we need. Could we find him a position?

bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 12:30 PM

""Tsk, tsk, Don. Using another thread to put forward your agenda on something totally unrelated. Despicable!

I think Don is a perfect candidate, Messiahs S&M. Will do anything to win converts. Just the kind of missionary we need. Could we find him a position?""

I did not ask the question, nor did I bring up the subject. That was done for me by the questioner introducing Palestine

I was asked a question and I gave an answer.

I didn't smarm my way around the issue of my reasons, but honestly expressed them.

If you find honesty despicable, perhaps it is you who need some self examination.

If you want obfuscation and evasion I could suggest about five regular sources, but I don't think I'll bother.

In fact, I don't think I'll bother with this forum.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 12:52 PM

See what I mean :-)


bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 01:17 PM

Whoops - Premature posting again! Perfect in every way. Excellent skills for scripture writing as well as determined!


bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 03:51 PM

The dog still weeps.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 04:11 PM

Dog?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,g angry with his phone keyboard
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 04:58 PM

The dog weeps because you insisted on me telling him he has no balls. His delusion has now been shattered and his life is empty with nothing to lick.

His religion really screwed him up. Poor hound.

Salvation around the corner though. I told him if he prayed enough they would grow back. Then I might introduce him to that poodle up the road. Better to stick it up a bitch than spill it on his beanbag, according to Steve' s gospel.

He is laid staring at me. He can obviously read my mind as he is giving me a mucky look, in the way only greyhounds can.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 10:14 PM

Tell him to pray for this.

At a high enough level there is no difference between magic and technology

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket grateful for that
Date: 12 Jul 13 - 03:51 AM

Prosthetic balls for dogs? Wow, you truly do live in the land of the free. No wonder you weren't worried about being kicked out of Canada.

At a high enough level etc.   Arthur C Clarke got it right.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jul 13 - 05:58 AM

This side-discussion is redundant, as our new New Truth religion is the dog's bollocks in any case. This and other matters will be clarified in "Balllightology" - oops, sorry, "Shaw's Atheology Volume The First" - and, in condensed form, in the new Catechism, which is making good progress. The first Q&A in it goes:

"Who made me?"

"I don't give a shit. Mine's a pint."

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Jul 13 - 10:13 AM

Ye gods, or should I say ye you, Messiah S. You gave me a funny turn there! I had a flashback to St Mary's, Swinton, c1960

Who made you?
God made me
Why did God make you
To know him, love him and serve him

I had to go and have a lie down for a couple of hours. It was only the thought of Theresa O'Flanagan showing her gym knickers behind the bike shed that brought me round!

Note in Toerag - If Godly thoughts bother thee, replace them with Earthly perversions :-)

bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jul 13 - 08:30 PM

Ye gods, or should I say ye you, Messiah S. You gave me a funny turn there! I had a flashback to St Mary's, Swinton, c1960

Who made you?
God made me
Why did God make you
To know him, love him and serve him

Oh my Musket! St Mary's, Swinton, 1960-ish? Why, in 1960 I was nine years old (or nine years into eternal life as it happens) and attending St Mary's Catholic primary school in Radcliffe!! Well shag me sideways with a bent banana, what a coincidence! You have given me a bit of a funny turn also! All I can say is, thank Me that we're Lancashire lads, unlike Musket, who appears to hail from t'wrong side of t'Pennine chain. Poor sod. No wonder the friggin' bingo was a failure. Do you think Swollox was from Hull?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jul 13 - 09:52 PM

It was only the thought of Theresa O'Flanagan showing her gym knickers behind the bike shed that brought me round!

Good Catholic name! Trouble is, in all my years (which are, of course, without number), I never once met a Catholic girl who bothered with knickers at all. "Cut to the Chase" was their motto! No scope for gay fellows there then!

That reminds me, chaps. Have we got a position on gays? I kind of love gayness myself, though clearly (like all self-respecting Messiahs), I need to distance meself from such vile gay depravity. I'm a bit confused though. There was this bloke in Crewe....

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans Clapton
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 03:50 AM

But Lancashire doesn't exist!   

Does it? I thought religions had to originate in the known world and never acknowledge other areas until we set up missions to get our hands on their souls and worldly goods?

Regarding gays. See women. If we are to convert any of those Christian heretics we need an environment they are comfortable with.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 04:47 AM

I rather like the tack this thread has taken. But now that we've reached a thousand posts, nobody gets credit for nothing until we reach 2,500.

Carry on.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 05:18 AM

Joe,

I thought you an animal lover. Have you no sympathy for Musket's ballless dog? The reluctant prophet of this proto-religion?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 05:20 AM

A canine eunuch?

I thought that sort of treatment, applied only to choirboys...

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 08:35 AM

Regarding gays. See women.

An absolute masterstroke of sexism laced with prejudice, exactly what we're all about!


So what about gay women then? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket getting his tuppence worth
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 09:14 AM

So long as I can watch, what about them? I promise to sit (relatively) still in the corner quietly with a flask, butties and Kleenex.

Joe. Don't fret about the dog. He is now quietly relaxed since I told him the great mutts nuts dude in the sky gives them back to little greyhounds that have been good, haven't shat on the kitchen floor and who eats all his chow after being given a gravy bone for being good.

Steve. On another thread, your mate Whacko showed that he is too insecure to put up with the trauma of being our token woman. Any other ideas? You really upset Betty Swollox but I know she has this mate, fag ash Lil. Any problem with that? I have it on good authority she is house trained.

Our new religion really is the dog's bollocks.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 10:31 AM

It certainly is. And, if I may just for a sec be as politically incorrect as I've ever dared to be not in a PM, do you suppose that videos which include lesbians "at it" might attract sex-starved ex-Christians? Not priests, of course, as they're not sex-starved.

My one doubt about you is these women you're digging up. Is this Lil from Hull as well? We can't completely sideline hygiene, you understand. Can't we have something more of a quasi-Mary Magdalene figure? She had, after all, the excellent attributes of knowing that she, as a mere woman, was thoroughly unworthy - and she washed blokes' feet...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket scouring the North
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 12:50 PM

Hull? All bonny lasses there. No. Your end of The Pennines. Picked her up (off the floor) in Knott End Working Men's Club.






Poetic location.   The only place I had someone die on me. To think the last thing she ever heard was me singing Brown Eyed Girl.......   mind you, as clubs go, not the best last view of the world either.

On that subject. How are we to deal with funerals? I suggest a booze up followed by biodegradable bag and a tree stuck up the arse. My mate wanted that and having found a garden of rest that did eco funerals, we sent him off in style.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 08:35 PM

Knott End? Why, the last time I caught the ferry to Knott End it cost me sixpence! Id est, a tanner! Had I been the Messiah in those days I'd have built a causeway across. Or created one, even. OK, so this "Lil" of yours is an alleged Lancashire lass. But does she wear Primark knickers (8-pack versions for five quid - I love 'em...), and does she use bog roll or her bare hand? Don't get me wrong on this one: I'm not the suspicious type, but after the mass food-poisoning Swollox outbreak (aka the unintentional consumption of raw infected shite by 200 people in a bingo hall) one does have to delve a little into one's preferred person's credentials innit.

As for Hull, as I understand things you have far fewer "women" than you think. The last person I spoke to who had been to Hull (an ex-Tory MP just released from jail), Hull is a place where the men are men and so are three-quarters of the women. A bit like wherever Wacko lives, really, only in reverse.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Jul 13 - 01:56 AM

Sheesh. Can't believe that I'm tired of this new religion already.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sanctimonious as a sailor
Date: 14 Jul 13 - 03:22 AM

Keep the faith Ebbie.

Look Steve, I had just got the ferry over from Fleetwood, had a jar or few in The Bourne Arms and the fecking ferry had finished for the day.   The landlord was expecting me to settle my tab so out through the bogs window and over to the club. Lil was sat there, looking pretty                   wrecked and any port in a storm and all that. She asked if I fancied her so I mentioned my initial positive thought that she didn't sweat much for a fat lass. That's it really.   I promised her salvation and minimum wage. Who wouldn't fall for that? You'd have to walk to Preesall to get a better deal.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jul 13 - 05:52 AM

Hmm. Dunno really, but as you're a Messiah and we're supposed to believe in you maybe we'd better run with this one. But be warned: pick the wrong woman again and we'll be up Skippool Creek without a paddle...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 14 Jul 13 - 06:24 AM

If I were the Messiah, there'd be no need of causeway or ferry (much less the dreaded Tidal Barrage which is second only to Canatxx* & Joey Blower's Hotel in the the local controversy stakes). No indeed, I would simply walk across Canshe Hole from Fleetwood to Knott End, and back again, no doubt in the vain search for fishermen worthy of becoming fishers of men. I might make it was far as Skippool Creek, which I was told used to be known locally as Galilee - but only at high tide. Might take a toddle down there ourselves later today for a pint in the Thornton Lodge.

* Or whatever it is they're calling themselves now.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jul 13 - 07:10 AM

I'm getting this increasing feeling that Knott End shall become our quasi-Mecca. As long as we don't go near Cleveleys, as I had more than enough of it thank you very much every soddin' August of my childhood when we stayed in Mrs Flannelfoot's grim boarding house. Just up from the Oldham And Cleveleys Used Car Show it was. Musket knows why we kept going back there. If you could get one afternoon in huddled behind a breakwater out of the wind you'd put "lovely weather here" on all your postcards. I wonder if that greasy spoon's still there where I developed my lifelong addiction to Horlicks. I daren't buy it, as late at night I'm prone to shovelling the dry powder down me gullet.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Jul 13 - 01:20 PM

I believe that the ferryman of the Knott End ferry was the last person to be tried for piracy. He was in dispute with someone and, apparently, moored the ferry in the middle of the sea lane to prove his point. Of course I could be talking...

bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket getting nostalgic
Date: 14 Jul 13 - 01:44 PM

Aye. Well we were more fortunate. My Aunty had a boarding house in Blackpool. Lord St I reckon. I used to go to the North Shore boating lake catching crabs.   Years later I went to bars down the south pier area, catching crabs.

Some things don't change.

Knott End. Mather has form in that place but Musket is keeping his trap shut. Are we using Lil or what?   I have given first refusal to Back entry Bertha if you have something against Fylde area residents. Bertha is a Shropshire lass, born just outside Wedlock.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Jul 13 - 04:19 PM

Ebbie - "Sheesh. Can't believe that I'm tired of this new religion already."

Do what Jesus did, Ebbie. Challenge the ossified, archaic systems of belief typical of Musket's highly questionable faith regime with a fresh new approach that horrifies the greybeards of the Old Order and makes them quiver in their little booties! Expose the graft and corruption in Fylde! Drive out the moneylenders from the pubs and public gathering places! Reveal the hypocrites in high places as nothing more than whitewashed tombs full of hypocrisy, dead ideas, and empty rituals (such as playing darts and watching the football games)! ;-D In a short time you will have either launched a brand new religion of your own...or you'll be hounded to your death by a mob of the faithful...or both.

In which case, you never know, you might be a household name a couple of thousand years hence, more famous than Justin Bieber...and much more longlasting.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Jul 13 - 04:26 PM

They seem to be writing in tongues. Minor miracle or too much beer at the keyboard?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 14 Jul 13 - 05:53 PM

Here on The Fylde we cherish both tongues & corruption as an integral aspect of The Messianic Revolutionary Dialectic. I think Christ knew as much when he said 'Be passers-by.' (Gospel of Thomas 42).

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Jul 13 - 06:04 PM

Could be. There's some interesting stuff in the Gospel of Thomas.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jul 13 - 07:09 PM

"Challenge the ossified, archaic systems of belief typical of Musket's highly questionable faith regime..."

Twat! That is my friggin' regime you're talking about! Musket and I may now be equal co-Messiahs but the "interesting idea" was mine, pillock! Musket, this man (or woman - Widnes knows...) must not be allowed in at anything but the lowest level. Maybe an altar boy who, conveniently, goes commando at Mass and who has a couple of baby-wipes in a plastic bag...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jul 13 - 07:16 PM

They seem to be writing in tongues. Minor miracle or too much beer at the keyboard?

Struggle on, Wacko. Jealousy resulting from your lack of wit, leading to buttock-clenchingly embarrassing inputs such as this, looks pathetic. Our bubble is unburstable by utter pricks like you. We'll consider you for junior altar-boy status, but you'll have to pass an exam first. Are you the right gender?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jul 13 - 07:26 PM

Are we using Lil or what?   I have given first refusal to Back entry Bertha if you have something against Fylde area residents.

I said yes, diddleye, though if things go to cock you are the Messiah who will have to come up with the usual circuitous arguments that make black seem white in order to get yourself off the hook (off the hooker?? :-)) There is further guidance on this invaluable technique on page 1348 of "Shaw's Atheology: Volume The First". This Bertha though. "Back Entry", eh? Does she carry wet-wipes?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans bingo calling
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 04:56 AM

Does she carry wet wipes? No but she carries a mattress on her back in case she sees anyone she knows.

You deal with reality and leave the metaphysical to me.   I am qualified having never had religion rammed down my throat when younger. No hangups leads to no limits.

Keep the faith!

Up the Owls!

Sorry, getting a bit carried away there....

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 06:02 AM

Up the Owls?

Sounds like a REAL perversion :-)

bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

(Sure I just posted something similar. Wonder If I told the ladies knitting circle?)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 07:09 AM

""Could be. There's some interesting stuff in the Gospel of Thomas.""

D'ye really think so LH?

I have some doubts about him.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 07:14 AM

""There is further guidance on this invaluable technique on page 1348 of "Shaw's Atheology: Volume The First".""

And you cannot gainsay that guidance, because "Shaw's Atheology" is the inerrant word of.........er.........um......NOBODY!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 07:24 AM

Is this Don Wyziwyg T or Don Poetry Bird T? Or are they the same? It's going to get very confusing for us mere mortals if we have to guess which persona others are posting as. Of course Messiahs S&M will ALWAYS know.

bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 11:03 AM

For the terminally confused, I was using my wife's PC and forgot to change the cookie, while Spybot was wading through 40 Gb of files and programs in search of malware on my PC.

So Poetry Bird, on this occasion, was me.

You could, since she is a member, have checked that she is independent of my account.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 11:05 AM

I never deliberately post except as a member using my own moniker.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 07:21 PM

Of course Messiahs S&M will ALWAYS know.

Why naturally, but we prefer to maintain a hands-off, "let-it-happen" style approach. We tend to just let the universe get on with it, avoiding intervention (except for when Swollox poisoned two hundred bingo players with infected turds). Just watch over the next year how all-wise we are. For example, Sheffield Wednesday would, you'd think, given Musket's sycophantic support, be winning the Premier League within a couple of years. But will Musket engineer that? Why, of course not!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket par for the course
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 05:46 AM

The prophet David Jones will engineer the winning of the premier league silly! Using manna from heaven (dodgy money from Mandaric.) Although I am sure that after the first rapture (promotion from the championship) the demigod Mandaric will drop him like a ton of spuds and fetch his co defendent Harry Rednapp in.

Can I take this opportunity to remind parishioners that the next church service will be held at 3.00 pm on Saturday 3 August away at QPR.

Grace and peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 12:44 PM

'ere, Messiahs, I have an idea. Well, I suppose it is divine inspiration really but you know what I mean. Of course. On another thread people are using the phrase 'self obsessed idiot'. I thought aloud that if we were to become self absorbing we would eventually disappear altogether but they did not seem keen. How about we include a diet club in our religion? They make fortunes. Imagine how many people would join if all they had to do was talk bollocks to become self absorbing. Whatcher think? Got to be better than bingo surely!

On the subject of omniscience and omnipotence, I think you a missing a trick. Some of the other Gods tell their followers that whatever happens it is their doing. So, if something good happens, they claim the credit. If something bad happens, you just say it is for the good of the majority or it is punishment for not giving enough money. Cracked it!

bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 06:08 PM

""So, if something good happens, they claim the credit. If something bad happens, you just say it is for the good of the majority or it is punishment for not giving enough money. Cracked it!""

Too late mate! The Christians have already cornered the market on that front.

That's why the Church of England owna about a third of the land in the UK.

And still they beg for donations and fundraising to fix the church roof. Sometimes I think it's them wot nicked the lead in the first place.

Don T.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 06:17 PM

Pretty sure that Christians don't hold the monopoly on daft ideas, Don. For a start the old testament is common to Jews, Christians and Moslems and as a work of fantasy that probably beats the lot. Except maybe the book of Mormon! I think our Messiahs here are perfectly entitled to use the OT as much as anyone, steal whatever ideas they want from other religions and put our own version of Holy days in to replace all the others :-)

bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 06:26 PM

On that subject, I heard about this Jehovah Witness chappy who knocked on a front door.

A man came to door and immediately invited him in, took him into the living room and seated him in the best armchair.

Then he fetched a tray of tea and biscuits and poured a cup.

Settling himself in the chair opposite, he said "Now, what was it you wanted to say?"

"Fucked if I know", answered the JW! "I never got this far before!"

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 06:54 PM

They've gotten considerably farther than that at my house... ;-) But you can't expect me to reveal everything.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 08:14 PM

How about we include a diet club in our religion?

Uncannily, Dave, you almost read my mind there (impossible, obviously, so let's just say "coincidence", shall we?). I am in the latter stages of instituting a set of dietary rules. After all, the British Israelites don't allow their followers to eat anything from a pig (filthy animals), or mushrooms (they digest and absorb shit), filter-feeding seafood such as prawns (too undiscriminating about what they suck in) or strawberries (because they bear seeds on the outside of the fruit - they don't, actually, as the fruit is the little pips on the outside, not the big juicy bit, but don't tell the wankers that). But don't worry. I am the Messiah and it just happens that I like all food except for apple sauce, which is the sour slop of the divil himself. Therefore I am issuing a dictat that apple sauce may not be consumed between three and four a.m. on a Friday and that raccoon flesh is taboo unless the beast was killed strictly according to Regulation 472 sub-paragraph 10 section 1.5 on page 1376 of Shaw's Atheology Volume The First. Unless it's Tuesday. I know these regulations may seem heavy-handed to some and complicated to follow but I do feel that followers of the New Truth must pledge to make these onerous sacrifices in order to demonstrate their allegiance (we need their money as well, so no benefit claimants please). And buy our new medallion depicting Wacko walking the plank (or is it yanking the plank), obtainable on eBay with free delivery for £1.49 VAT inc. (thanks for that, concerened: we know who you are!)

What's our thinking on women without bank accounts?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Musket
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 05:29 AM

Anybody with a bank account can join, so long as they fill in the gift aid box, allowing us to get their tax relief on their donation.

Mind you, most of the women we have attracted thus far haven't been the sort to have bank accounts as such. A cash card with a savings book maybe, but no debit cards, or pay monthly phones...

Do you think we should be attracting air head actresses? The Yanks manage it. Their religions, especially scientology, seem to pack 'em in. I doubt a medallion of our doubting Thomas yanking the plank will sell though.

Apple sauce - add celery to the list and I will try not to veto your proclamation.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans blood of the Messiah
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 05:44 PM

Here! We were about to be disenfranchised. .. or at least about to fall off the end of the BS list.

Whilst this desperate post prevents it, it does prophetically show the way forward for all religions I suppose. You have to keep crowing if you want to remain relevant.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 06:18 PM

1300!

bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 06:43 PM

""They've gotten considerably farther than that at my house... ;-) But you can't expect me to reveal everything.""

LH please don't! The very thought makes me quite queasy.

:-)LOL

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 08:31 PM

I doubt a medallion of our doubting Thomas yanking the plank will sell though.

Oi, I've invested a lot in this, and pitching it at at £1.49 delivery inc. is bound to make it attractive. We can't lose here. We either sell a ton and make a fortune, or we sell very few and the bloody thing becomes a collector's item meaning that we can sell our stock off at vastly inflated prices. I did get this bastard thru' Dragon's friggin' Den, fer chrissake. Concerened managed to make them at a unit cost of 20p each, you know, once he'd nicked the brass from an accordion reed-making factory, and I managed to dupe him into thinking that the 50p per hour I was paying him was a damn sight higher than what he'd get in Poundland.

Apple sauce - add celery to the list and I will try not to veto your proclamation.

You're not trying to eat that Tesco Moroccan shit, are you? We need a compromise here. We don't ban celery but we decree that it must be used only in making chicken stock. Yeah?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 08:31 PM

I doubt a medallion of our doubting Thomas yanking the plank will sell though.

Oi, I've invested a lot in this, and pitching it at at £1.49 delivery inc. is bound to make it attractive. We can't lose here. We either sell a ton and make a fortune, or we sell very few and the bloody thing becomes a collector's item meaning that we can sell our stock off at vastly inflated prices. I did get this bastard thru' Dragon's friggin' Den, fer chrissake. Concerened managed to make them at a unit cost of 20p each, you know, once he'd nicked the brass from an accordion reed-making factory, and I managed to dupe him into thinking that the 50p per hour I was paying him was a damn sight higher than what he'd get in Poundland.

Apple sauce - add celery to the list and I will try not to veto your proclamation.

You're not trying to eat that Tesco Moroccan shit, are you? We need a compromise here. We don't ban celery but we decree that it must be used only in making chicken stock. Yeah?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 08:34 PM

And would the utterly non-divine git who made that post appear twice please delete one and stop trying to undermine my messianic authority?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 03:54 AM

All religions repeat their mantra. Repeatedly.
All religions repeat their mantra. Repeatedly.

You see fellow Messiah Steve, its the only way to achieve effective brainwashing. Remember that BBC journalist who flipped his lid when the spokesman from Scientology just kept repeating and not answering his questions. Most religions and those who profit from them have similar approaches.

A bit like when I was at school. We were all learning about Pavlov. Then the bell sounded and we all went for dinner.




Thankyouverymuch.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 06:43 AM

see fellow Messiah Steve, its the only way to achieve effective brainwashing.

Yebbut we need some distinguishing mark to make us attractive in ways different to the non-New Truth so-called belief systems. Repeating repeating stuff is an excellent ploy, no doubt about it (it always captures captures the attention). I was thinking of cheap beer and free chips. Have you got any money?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket as a spiv
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 07:15 AM

We had bingo.... The beer is cheap up here.

Free chips? Dunno. Might make loaves and fishes go a bit further I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 07:47 AM

I was thinking more al fresco, not in a hall again. I've generated just the weather for it. I could do a bit of preaching while the punters ate and drink their fill. Is there a Mount near you anywhere?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 08:31 AM

Sermon on the mount eh? Nah, can't see that working.

Blessed are the cheese-mongers...

bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket looking out window
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 08:45 AM

Here in North Lincolnshire, I look out over the flatlands for sight of a mount.

The only mount I know of was Betty Swollox and she is inconsolable since you shouted at her.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 08:26 PM

Well do give Swollox my regards, delivered from a distance as ever, and, if you ever mount her Mount, don't forget to wash your hands afterwards. And everything else, come to think of it. Are you sure Lil isn't a better bet than Bet?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 05:45 AM

""Yebbut we need some distinguishing mark to make us attractive in ways different to the non-New Truth so-called belief systems.""


BY JOVE, HE'S GOT IT! I THINK HE'S GOT IT!

The perfect name for your new religion's repository of collected wisdom and moral guidance.

The answer to the Bible, the Q'ran, the Torah and all other religious tomes.

Gentlemen, I give you.....(drum roll).......... THE YEBBUT!

Perfectly descriptive of the Atheology of the Master, Steve Shaw!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 08:10 AM

Why, Don, I'd realised what a genius I'd been coming up with that, but you know me - far too self-deprecating to crow about it, so I left it to you! I'm thinking you'd make a good henchman, Don - possibly a sort of archangel-equivalent in the hierarchy. Do you scrub up well?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 11:21 AM

He scrubs up better than Lil. And he takes no shit from no one.

He even politely ignores my double negatives.

Today Mudcat tomorrow the world!

By the way, got this Church of England vicar on the phone. Says he can't handle the idea of a woman bishop and can't decide to join us or the offer from the left footers.   Can we consider altar boys and a youth club with camping weekends? If so, we may have a convert. Just waiting for his CRB to come back.

I'll let you know.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 12:40 PM

But shall the name be called "Yebbut the New Truth"? Or "Yebbut Nobbut the New Truth"? Just "Yebbut"? Or, when we're in fundamentalist mode, just "Nobbut Yebbut"? Do we understand ballots?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans bingo calling
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 03:12 AM

Did you know? This thread is more popular than old pocket watches and by three whole posts.

It's becoming a movement I'm telling you. ...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 03:18 AM

Yebbut we also have the Toerag, which is where the learned scribes interpret the Yebbut in light of various situations. So, for instance, if the Yebbut says 'Thou shalt shag thy neighbours wife.', the Toerag could interpret that as 'Thou shalt shag thy neighbours wife unless she looks like Nora Batty.'. Or, if the Yebbut says 'Do not let anyone mess with your head.', the Toerag may clarify that as 'Never get your hair cut or beard trimmed.'. See?

bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 06:26 AM

Thou shalt shag thy neighbour's wife unless she looks like Nora Batty.

Or unless she's Swollox in which case the ten-foot bargepole comes in handy.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 06:31 AM

Did you know? This thread is more popular than old pocket watches and by three whole posts.

It's becoming a movement I'm telling you. ...

Huh? Old pocket watches have movements. We need a period of silence apropos of Betty's "movements" as well. The bingo hall mass food-poisoning court case is up next week. I need a lawyer.

And....messianic joke comin' up....



Is this post a wind-up?    Bwahahahaha!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 09:44 AM

""Why, Don, I'd realised what a genius I'd been coming up with that, but you know me - far too self-deprecating to crow about it, so I left it to you! I'm thinking you'd make a good henchman, Don - possibly a sort of archangel-equivalent in the hierarchy. Do you scrub up well?""

I'm afraid that being a longtime independent irreligious loner, I have absolutely zero experience of henching, but I do appreciate the offer.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 09:46 AM

C'mon you atheists.

Don't you realize we are in danger of having the thread on Zimmerman pass us?

Surely you have more time to waste and nonsense to spew than your contributions so far.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 09:57 AM

""Surely you have more time to waste and nonsense to spew than your contributions so far.""

I'm sure you know best Ron.

Like to share any of your wisdom?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 03:16 PM

W e
a r e n ' t
F u c k I n g
a t h e i s t s

Our faith and religion has everything yours has except we have the advantage of knowing ours is a pack of bullshit to intimidate people so we can control them.

The clue is in the song.

The Lord is my Shepherd.

Baa Baa !

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 03:20 PM

W e
a r e n ' t
F u c k I n g
a t h e i s t s


Is that a divine ruling, Messiah M? Personally I would say I am fucking anyone I fancy :-)

bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 02:23 AM

Ah, if you are a high priest of our cult, you can fuck the faithful with impunity. You don't need atheists my gnoble brother.

Not really a divine ruling as hedonism is in the contract so divine rulings are purely for the gullible sods who fund our lifestyle.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 02:34 AM

Thank you Almighty One (of two).

bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 06:21 PM

You'll not have failed to notice how sagely quiet I'm being. There needs to be an air of messianic mystery about one, I've found. All this bingo and Swollox malarkey has made me seem a little too earthbound. I'm off to Watford Gap tomorrow to check on the Glee Shack (Wacko's been a bit quiet - maybe he's up there using the special solo sex seat...) It's a fortnight now since I hired those plumbers to fill in the urinal pipe-holes in the back wall.

Paying them in advance with the bingo profits wasn't a great idea, huh... Anyone know where I can get cheap blu-tack in bulk?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 06:29 PM

We have hope. The royal baby has been free of the delectable loins of wotsername (you know...the queen of benefits scroungers...) and he hasn't mentioned "God" once yet. Do you think he thinks his dad is called Lightning Balls?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Jul 13 - 08:38 AM

I can't tell you how disappointed I am that you militant atheists have dropped the ball.   And just when the Zimmerman thread is poised to overtake. Oh, the shame of it.

There's a lot more to be said on the topic.   And if I'm forced to, I'll have to start saying it.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Jul 13 - 10:45 AM

Go, Ron, go!

bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans Clapton
Date: 24 Jul 13 - 01:59 PM

Go on Ron. I bet you can't talk sanctimonious bollocks!

Here's a tip. Instead of trying, just bring your tambourine and Bible to the debate and try to talk in earnest. Works every time to date.

Here, fellow Messiah. All the other ones, the sandal wearing ones anyway, have a trinity. Do you think we should be father (you are older than me) son (I still have all my own teeth) and holy gnome?

What do you think?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Jul 13 - 02:23 PM

You should aim higher. The Mormoms give you your own planet if you tithe and behave.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Jul 13 - 02:39 PM

I can't aim higher so just stop taking the piss.

bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSP

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket taking no shit from you pal
Date: 24 Jul 13 - 03:00 PM

Hah! Mormons may offer a planet but your Jesus offers a place next to him and his old man through the pearly gates.

We can offer ten mins with Betty Swollox. If you survive that, Dave will make you a plate of chips and black pudding. Still with us? I'll get the karaoke machine out and give you my rendition of Dancing Queen.

And don't forget, we give you fully unredeemable air miles with your weekly subscriptions.

Bloody established religions. No marketing .   Except of course when exploiting poor countries.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 08:11 AM

"There is no evdence for a God." Others may disagree. Including quite a few scientists, who reach a point where their scientific knowledge cannot explain all natural phenomena.

But more to the point, there is no proof there is no God.

As I've said before, the problem with you militant atheists--and there is no doubt that fits many of the illustrious Mudcat atheists to a T, is that you are arrogantly asserting something with no more proof that a fundamentalist has for his views.

And on top of that, your music is wretched.   There seems to be something about atheism which drains one of any creativity, at least in music.

Have a nice day.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 08:17 AM

One more thing.

Your sense of humor appears to be lacking, to say the least--teasing you seems to send you ballistic, and make you fall into the gutter.   Who knows, perhaps that's your normal habitat.

But aside from these quibbles, you're wonderful people, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Musket
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 08:28 AM

My music is wonderful! I include Bach, Vivaldi...   I love lots of music for music's sake.

Out of interest, Bach is the most atheist music I can think of. It shows us infinite possibility in the cadence, and you know what? The further I peer down his score, the less chance I have of seeing an old bloke causing death and destruction.

There is no evidence for a lack of a God, but there is no evidence for it either. The flying teapot has the same amount of evidence.

There is not a single scientist who disagrees with the no evidence for a god. Not one. Where you cannot explain natural phenomena, it is through not having the the knowledge to understand just yet. Eventually, a theory exists that stands true till it is honed and even trashed in the light of further evidence. There is no qualification for the general term scientist, hence religious people call themselves scientists to prove false points, in much the same way as shampoo manufacturers invent "patented" enzymes to sound clever in TV commercials. By definition, science is about discovering what is, not proving what you want it to be.

What any of that has to do with religion is beyond me? The only link I know of is that as we learn more about the world around us, assumptions in scripture are put aside. Some people don't like that, as medeivel superstition still has a pull on shallow ignorant people. Most people with faith see it as a metaphor so have no tension between reality and fairy stories.

Perhaps one day we will find the delusion gene???



I wrote that as Musket. Sorry to any militant atheists reading, if there are any on Mudcat, for answering on your behalf. He didn't mean militant atheists, he meant people who he scorns by calling them such.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 08:48 AM

My very thoughts on Bach.

How do you know I'm older and toothlesser than you anyhow?

I have in fact been uncomfortably close to you for the last three days, namely, staying at Bury Premier Inn. We had a lovely day up the Ribble Valley and round Pendle (I'd instructed the clouds to part - if God can do it with water...) Not a witch in sight. Even they're scared of our New Truth.

I've struck up a sponsorship deal with Wonga. All agreed?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 02:55 PM

Hey - You were quite close to me too. Well, physically. You always are spiritually of course...

I shall be driving by Pendle twice tomorrow. You still there? Physically, not spiritually...

bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 03:04 PM

I live in North Lincolnshire. A fair distance although I live only 15 mins from M62 I suppose.

I know I am younger than you cos I am like you a Messiah so know bloody everything. Everything do you hear?

Ok. I don't understand the Liverpool FC bit.

Dave. Brilliant pie shop in Clitheroe. Millions of different sausages too.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 09:15 PM

Clitheroe is pub foodie heaven, I'm told. There's a good ice cream place too (dammit, can't remember its name...) OK, so maybe not Knott End after all then...?

Alas, Dave, my visit was brief, though I shall be up there again with Mother some time in mid-August for a day or two - I nearly always take her for a drive over t'Nick o' Pendle on our way to our favourite eatery, the Three Fishes at Mitton. This time we had lunch there, then drove the pretty way to Downham where we had a pot of tea at the Assheton Arms. It was on Wednesday when there was that somewhat spectacular fire at Padiham which resulted in a plume of black smoke that could be seen for miles around.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 05:37 PM

Anyone up for getting Swollox pregnant and then us claiming, sometime next April-ish, that we've had a virgin birth? Shagging her, I promise, is dead easy, as long as you only breathe out...

Upsides: (1) a good bit of rough nookie with Betty (I'm told she's got some friggin' brilliant unorthodox bedroom methods...) (2) you get to have your own baby quasi-Jesus...

Downsides: (1) We will have the Virgin Betty (2) you will probably get VD...

All thoughts appreciated. By the way, I still need money for Watford Gap and the bingo lawsuit.

Dave...?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans Clapton
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 03:37 AM

We could always film the event and get a religiously dangerous Australian Hollywood actor to promote it. The Passion of Dave.   

Sorry Dave, but I am too choosy and Steve has a hangup over his age. Might take more than Betty to give him a stirring in the loins region. I'll post a few photos of Steve Gerrard, see if that can help.

Our proposed branching out with an outreach temple in Dumbfuckistan is suffering a setback. Our nautical friend is cutting and pasting Messiah Steve's posts from elsewhere to convince the pious Americans we British are too uncouth for Mudcat.

Looks like the new religion may not be as multicultural as we wished. Still, they don't have gnomes or an endless supply of misogyny targets. If Betty won't be our virgin, plenty more where she came from. Freddie Mercury once said fat bottomed girls make the rocking world go round. I can therefore state with confidence that Doncaster is the epicentre for astrophysics.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 09:34 AM

I just dropped of the Gnomedotters at Wycoller Country Park. The view of Pendle on the way back was spectacular. I put it all down to Messianic munificence. And awsome alliteration...


bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 04:03 PM

Repeat after me, while dribbling down your collective chins, sticking your thumbs up your bums and keeping your minds firmly in neutral;

" I am a waste of skin and hair, I am a waste of skin and hair, I am a waste of skin and hair"; repeat four times a day untill you all can act and think like rational human beans.. some how I doubt it....have a nice day?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 05:52 PM

Christ almighty, concerened, you're a friggin' GENIUS!!! Why didn't I think of it before: a signature mantra! Something for all followers of the New Truth to chant! We could easily outdo those dropout twats on Glastonbury Tor with their bloody tomtoms! Not entirely sure about the skin and hair bit, however. It sounds just a little scabrous, if you take my meaning. Like, not exactly what will attract new punters to the cause. Could you work on something incorporating more, say, bums, bellies 'n' tits? Sexist allusions would be great - we're well up for them. How's the second batch of plank-walking medallions coming along, by the way? I have a stall booked on Bury Market...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 07:16 PM

Musket is to Brits as Shaw is to scientists.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 07:34 PM

Wanna be one of our apprentice altar boys, Wacko? It's only a five-year course but you will have to promise to keep your white bits shaved...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 07:58 PM

The view of Pendle on the way back was spectacular. I put it all down to Messianic munificence.

I sent up a few towering cumulonimbus clouds to dramatise the view. I did toy with snow, but bejaysus we have to maintain at least a little credibility....

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 08:30 PM

Two typos I didn't catch. Mea culpa. Mea maxima culpa.

"no evidence for..."

"no more proof than a..."

Please accept my humble apologies.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 29 Jul 13 - 02:51 AM

Seeing Ron Davis posting something he presumably understands, although perhaps I'mnnot thick after all, he could just be talking in tongues. .. makes me wonder, considering we are a religion too.   I wonder if The Archbishop of Canterbury thinks as I am thinking when the Pope nips round for tea and tiffin?

Hey concerned! Wrong again. What hair? I'm a slap head just like them there Harry Krishna dudes. This is a religiosity thread so please check facts and only post truth, just as we do.

Ok.. The GBS reference. Is this a breach of the ceasefire? Mr Shaw was of the Oirish persuasion and lived amongst but not with the Brits. Are you sure you don't mean yourself? Having been sent into exile to live amongst those you nationally look down on? Me? Not even sure I would call myself British. Sure, in the final analysis I am but certainly not one of those odious buggers who fly flags and get misty eyed about tying colonial natives to the mouths of cannons. ..

You did mean George Bernard Shaw didn't you? The only other Shaw should be addressed by you as Messiah Steve and keep your eyes averted.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Jul 13 - 10:15 AM

I know you are aware of everything, omniscient ones, but I do know that occasionally you like to test your disciples. Have you see the thear about the "Dozens". I opened it to see WTF it was about and was amazed to find the one who whinges about being called Wacko some out with -

Bobert was so ugly his momma had to rub him up with her lard sweat to get the dog to lick him

Have I passed the test, oh Great Ones, and am I being unctuous enough?

bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

ever so 'umble...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jul 13 - 10:52 AM

"The Three Fishes at Mitton"

Now you're talking...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 Jul 13 - 11:16 AM

""I know I am younger than you cos I am like you a Messiah so know bloody everything. Everything do you hear?""

'Ee's NOT a Messiah! 'Ee's a very NAUGHTY boy!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jul 13 - 12:37 PM

And he supports Sheffield Wednesday, don't forget.

Who art thou, o Guest, so that we can eulogise together about the finest haddock, chips and mushy peas to be had this side of the ol' panhandle?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket the co Messiah
Date: 29 Jul 13 - 02:38 PM

Talking of getting a panhandle, how did the pictures of Steve Gerrard go? If only a partial success, I think I have some hardcore Keegan and Souness. Let me know, but spare me the details eh?

The David Ford and David Hirst "2 x Dave" set does it for half of Sheffield....

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Jul 13 - 03:20 PM

If he supports Sheffield Wednesday, who does he support the other days of the week?

I'll get my cassock...

bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jul 13 - 06:25 PM

We 'ad that joke weeks ago, Dave, but, far from castigating you for repeating it, I will congratulate you instead for thinking like a Messiah! Has anyone got no cigar?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 08:48 AM

Phew! I didn't fancy being castigated by a Messiah. We had a cat castigated by a vet and he couldn't walk for 3 days.

'ere. Dropping off Gnomedotters at Burnley Bus Station yesterday and part way there found the road to Colne closed off so we had to divert up some very dodgy roads along the side of the Colne valley. Now, you know I said the other day that we had a spectaular view of Pendle? Well, that was from t'other side of the valley. The view from here was pretty grand as well. Are you giving us some sort of sign, Messiahs? Is Pendle the new Mount Sinai? Have you ever come down it in your Triumph? Is the road to Colne actually the road to Domestos?

bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 09:56 AM

I think we should employ this Catholic sign-writer.

Dogs bollocks

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 06:19 PM

Pendle is where one side of my family come from. It is indeed Lancashire's best-kept secret, a worthy outlier of the Dales I think. I can't see myself abandoning Knott End, but perhaps that fine place could be a sort of Walsingham for us. A place of pilgrimage from our Pendle HQ (no sweat: get Ribble Bus via Preston and catch tram from Blackpool. I can always lend you my bus pass). The Three Fishes could be our place of worship, but let's have none of that communion host and gone-off wine full of priest-spit shit: we shall instead feast on the haddock, chips done in dripping and mushy peas (large portion) washed down with a pint or six of Hen Harrier. Naturally, we'll need money, but the church next door has some stuff that'll fetch a bob or two on eBay... How much does lead fetch these days?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jul 13 - 08:55 PM

Had a phone call from Betty Swollox this affie. She was pretending to be grovellingly apologetic about the bingo fiasco and she offered to wash my messianic feet, Mary Magdalen fashion. Didn't know where to put meself except for keeping my legs crossed. She offered to raise money for our haddock 'n' chips binges at The Three Fishes by selling her body down at Fleetwood docks in full view of Knott End. The poor woman does get confused. However, she rang me at midnight to tell me she'd raised four and sevenpence, less chip money, from just one bloke. It's a start.

Has anyone got the phone number of Fleetwood Royal Infirmary?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket confused
Date: 01 Aug 13 - 03:16 PM

What was she doing over there? I had arranged to meet her in The Bourne Arms and then to have a shag sat on the dustbin of my ex girlfriend in Preesel.

Did I tell you Knott End WMC is the only gig where I actually had some poor old bugger die during my set?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Aug 13 - 06:54 PM

Do you mean Preesall, that place that is almost literally up shit creek sans paddle? Gosh, what an honour to have someone actually die during your gig! I've died a good few times during my own gigs but that one of yours takes the bloody biscuit does that! In order to catch up I'm inviting the inhabitants of every old people's home in Bude to come to our bash at The Tree tomorrow night. One must live in hope.

Heard from Swollox again this morning. She had a somewhat sterile night at Fleetwood docks, raising two and tuppence after deduction for a pint of breakfast shrimps. She was apologising for missing the shag but promised me she would bend over forwards to put things right with you. I suppose you think we still need this woman?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Musket
Date: 02 Aug 13 - 03:56 AM

That's what I typed. F*&king iPad auto corrected it seems. Must be some shit kicking place in the States spelt that way....

Yeah, the ex girlfriend arranged a charity 'do there and I did a turn, sharing with the ubiquitous bingo and a disco. Singing away, oblivious to the world, a bit of a commotion in the corner. Two songs, later, (show must go on...) paramedics could be seen in the corner carrying a stretcher out. (Show must go on.) She was very old, but all the same, to think the last thing the poor old bugger heard was my dulcet tones.... Enough to consider a vow of silence.

You say that one must live in hope. Well, I'm a Derbyshire lad originally, and we have a saying, tha' knows. "I'd rather live in Hope than die in Clay Cross."

We always needs the Betty Swollox of this world. When all around you is misfiring......

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Aug 13 - 04:41 AM

My gran once lived in Every Street in Nelson. She dined out for years on that one!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 02 Aug 13 - 10:19 PM

Interestlingly enough, I've just run across a useful contribution to this scintillating debate.   It's in the Washington Post, today or yesterday.   The National Cathedral in DC has a new leader, the Right Rev. Hall (can't remember first name).

Turns out he was sitting at dinner with none other than Richard Dawkins.   Listened to what Mr. Dawkins had to say.   His response:   "I don't believe in the God you don't believe in either".

That's what it boils down to.   The new breed of atheist, several of whom grace Mudcat with their presence, specializes in setting up a straw man, calling it belief in God, then attacking it.

They do not admit that the religious are at least as all over the block as non-believers.    Saying as they do that anybody who is religious believes a string of assertions only held by fundamentalists is precisely as accurate as saying that all atheists have the same beliefs as Hitler, Stalin and Mao, all rabidly hostile to religion.

That is to say:    our beloved atheists, in addition to their other charms, are intellectually dishonest.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Aug 13 - 03:38 AM

our beloved atheists, in addition to their other charms, are intellectually dishonest. <./I>

What, Ron? All of them?

bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Aug 13 - 07:12 AM

Saying as they do that anybody who is religious believes a string of assertions only held by fundamentalists...

We don't say that. Also, see boundaries thread, subsection misrepresentation. Anyway, this isn't a debate. Think of it as a massive planning cyber-meeting chaired by two co-Messiahs. And, Ron old boy, we're not even going to let you be an altar boy, so you'll have to put your cassock on eBay won't you.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Aug 13 - 12:09 PM

BS: Militant atheism has become a religion...only to those who political beliefs think that the state can replace God...as it is now, with help from the NSA, the God/State knows your very private thoughts, and everything you do!
Here's you your Utopia!
BS: Militant atheism has become a religion

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Aug 13 - 02:21 PM

""Saying as they do that anybody who is religious believes a string of assertions only held by fundamentalists""

So there you have it folks. Ron thinks that only fundamentalists believe in God!

Don T.

P.S. Sorry to disappoint Ron, but I am moderately certain that that anybody who doesn't believe in God is by definition not religious.

Buddhists and Taoists excepted of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Aug 13 - 04:01 PM

"Interestingly enough,...."

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Aug 13 - 06:39 PM

Hey, nice to see ya in this thread, guffers! I'm glad you showed up. We'd decided in advance to make you a junior altar boy. Unfortunately, you don't get to wear a cassock (or underwear) until you're a senior, and there's an awful lot of forward-bending involved in shaking that incense jobbie. You OK with that? We do prefer our juniors to shave their pubes though. We're bloody fussy you know. Have you got a pack or two of wet wipes?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Aug 13 - 09:15 PM

Hmmm..I see you have issues with altar boys, adolescence, pubes and sex.
What happened?..You were an altar boy, and the priest you wanted to hit on you passed you up??..Now you're blaming God????

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 04 Aug 13 - 03:28 AM

Hi Goofus!

(Must get a better latch for the play pen....)

Ron Davis reckons anybody who doesn't fall for organised doctrine has a label he recognises as atheist.   Then has the nerve to accuse us, the co Messiahs and associated gnome of fitting his label! Hasn't he been reading? This is an organised religion you prat! It exists! There are noughts and ones in cyberspace relating to it now, so ergo we exist.

Ok. The bingo was a bad call. Getting co Messiah Steve in the same room as Betty Swollox set our seven day creation aims back a bit. Though I suppose having a gnome running round shouting "bollocks" has a spiritual dimension.

All we need to do is work out where Heaven is, (S6 is the postcode clue) and who we intend to crucify, (still reading Goofus? ) and whether we actually need a god in order to behave as pathetic misogynists, and you will find that our religion is every bit as plausible as yours. And it is fresh. 2000 years and you still allow QPR to play Joey Barton. Sodding Jesus. ....

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: robomatic
Date: 04 Aug 13 - 02:19 PM

This is one of the best short reads on the subject of how to define one's unbelief in 'The Deity'

Penn Jillette: This I Believe

As for I, the p.ower of the Lord is evident in various of His Works.

Nothing Personal!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Aug 13 - 02:45 PM

I wouldn't bother, Messiah M. It's too difficult for some.

bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Aug 13 - 07:03 PM

Now Musket, you know I wasn't in the same room as Betty - the janitor merely showed me the cutlery drawer into which she'd thrown up. Apart from the feet-washing episode (Jeez, her washing water stank a bit...), my only contact with her was the phone call just before her body-selling evening at Fleetwood. Oh, and the phone call next morning in which she declared she was taking half our bloody profits for that shrimp breakfast.

The bingo hall court case is on Tuesday morning by the way. Does anyone know how the bail system works?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans bingo calling
Date: 05 Aug 13 - 01:17 AM

Betty Swollox has signed an affidavit to the effect that you were there. I wouldn't worry though, the local bench all say they know her. Which is better in tense terms than the biblical they knew her. (Do you think our truth book can have euphemisms like that? )

Had a phone call from Back Entry Bertha offering her services if anyone is interested? She comes from Crumpsall which is close to Old Trafford, where I sat watching umpires playing with light monitors yesterday.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Aug 13 - 03:45 AM

Is that 'back entry' Bertha Duffy? She used to run onto the pitch at Old Trafford when she was not happy with the umpires decisions and spray a big 'X' on the back of their white coats. She became known as...





Wait for it...




You'll like this, Messiahs...






Duffy the umpire sprayer

bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 05 Aug 13 - 01:05 PM

The son of the co messiah was back there again today, lazy sod. He saw them force the draw. I was under the impression he was busy lecturing and writing his PhD. Going to have a word.....

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Aug 13 - 04:54 PM

""Betty Swollox has signed an affidavit to the effect that you were there. I wouldn't worry though, the local bench all say they know her. Which is better in tense terms than the biblical they knew her. (Do you think our truth book can have euphemisms like that? )""

Of course it can! It isn't called the "Yebbut" for nothing.

It would handle the BS Affidavit by stating ""Yebbut: everybody knows she's a bloody liar""

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Aug 13 - 08:02 PM

"Affidavit"? Now you know Betty and her delusions. She told me in that phone call that she'd "signed an affidavit". Turned out she meant she'd communicated with a friendly deaf bloke called David. Mind you, I might have misheard her as she was using a bitten-off strip of big toe nail to pick bits of shrimp shell out of her dentures at the time.

This Bertha - will she want paying? The magistrate cleaned me out over the bingo hall damages claim this morning. Christian bastard. I have some lead from off of the church near The Three Fishes still if anyone knows a fence. The vicar got my registration, unfortunately, so does anyone urgently want to buy a J-reg Astra?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 04:59 AM

Take it out of the collection plate. That seems to be the traditional way of dealing with the local law.

Don't worry about the Astra. Plenty just like that up there. Just turn the c into an o with a felt tip. No probs. A fiver folded behind your driving licence is the going rate up there should you be asked to produce it.

If all else fails say you are impotent and all seeing. Frighten the buggers into either prostration or giving you a blanket and a hot cup of tea.

Alternatively, ring an anonymous tip off describing pete or Goofus. I think someone's ship is out of port so can't pin it on him. He's been quiet lately and has a truce with me for that matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Concerened
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 08:58 AM

I cannott believe that you load of no marks havent exhausted this subject with your purile smug crap.your are all to cool for school..if any of you actually went.Even the nautical fraud jerk the ssilor ie catching on to you..wake up at the back there!! anf do domething with your itsy, ginger, self satisfied lives..please?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 10:07 AM

"Ginger"? Now, my man, we'll have none of that kind of gingerist discrimination here! Carrot-tops are welcome in The New Truth as long as they're not Scots! The only discrimination here is against women and sailors and you know it! Sheesh! Yebbut! By the way, where's that next batch of medallions, you lazy git?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Concerened
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 10:25 AM

Sad sad and sadder..when are you saddos gonna fess up and admit that you in severe need of mental councilling..also a lesson in manners you prissy vulgerian..dont you call me a lazy git Shaw.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 10:35 AM

""do domething with your itsy, ginger, self satisfied lives..please?""

After you Concerened!

Then you should download a spell checker.

Much more to the point than usless attempts at pissing on other peoples parties.

What's your surname, GRINCH?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket wondering
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 10:41 AM

Eyup concerned. Have you just bought an iPad too? Your spelling and grammar is as bad as mine using autocorrect before I edit it.

Mind you, you may just be illiterate. We have to consider that.

If you insist on plugging into this thread, at least buy a copy of our parish magazine. Co messiah Steve has a few copies available. He keeps them under a sack in his potting shed where they can't be found. On the basis that religious text has lots in common with porn. Gives you a taster of what rapturous feelings may be like by showing you others but you need to use your imagination, and feel deflated soon after.

Ginger.... Now that's something you slipped in. Our lack of god loves all, including ginger kids. But how did you work that out? The only copy of our good book (draft) is kept in a pigeon loft somewhere oop North and guarded by an oiled up gnome in a leotard.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Concerened
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 11:19 AM

I can still wind you up dt..just throw out the line now and again and in they com
e..this is really to easy ..as for you, you smart arse musket..your crap is really beyond the realms of belief..this is not a spelling site. ..rearange this sentence..glasshouse people throw in shouldnt stones..to hard right?

Nothing left then except get yer thumb worked well up your bum get your mind in neutral then repeat after me..I am a complete and utter bounder and should learn to be more tolerant......

peace and love

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 01:08 PM

Who is winding who up where, C? There is one American phrase that I never really understood until now. Something about shooting fish in a barrel? :-)

And what is this about an oiled up Gnome in a leotard - I said I was getting well oiled and buying a leopard to guard it...

Oh, sorry, forgot that you already knew that! Phew, nearly didn't pass the test there :-(

bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 01:33 PM

Lighten up on concerened, guys! This man has qualities, I tell you! OK, OK, his first batch of medallions had us all sitting around for hours filing metal burrs off the edges, but didn't sailor boy look bloody good on the end of that plank! All concerened needs now is to bulk up the production a bit. Even I think we can sell more than three a month...

We need more people with attitood! Even the wrong bloody attitood! Except for Ron and Guffers, who I'm told are both ginger Scots women...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 08:32 AM

So our illustrious atheists don't like the idea that they have tarred all religion and the religious with the abuses of some.   

I've already pointed out that not all non-believers are guilty of this. Bill D and Amos, for instance, are not.

But there is plenty of evidence on this thread.

I have no more time now, you'll be crushed to learn.

More later.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket getting blasé
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 09:44 AM

More later? Hopefully including an explanation of what the hell he is talking about.

Is Ron trying to join our religion or what? He has shown respect for delusion up till now so there is hope yet that our creed is better for him than the one he follows.

Concerned. Is that you Moo?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 09:56 AM

So our illustrious atheists don't like the idea that they have tarred all religion and the religious with the abuses of some.   

I'll have you know I am very religious, Mr D, as my posts above illustrate. If anyone is going to tar me they will have to find me first and then be prepared to get some very nasty bites around the kneecap.

bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 02:22 PM

I think you are indeed omnipotent, Messiah S (No more so than Messiah M of course...) Thy name will appear by divine guidance in all mudcat threads shortly.

It begins!

BTW, have you ever grown any lettuce or potatoes or any other such stuff. Just a thought. If you had we could be the Farmer, Gun (Musket, gerrit?) and wholly Gnome. If I could be party to such a thing that is.

bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 09:06 AM

So now that our esteemed, if somewhat garrulous (about 1,400 entries) posters have rabbited on about any subject with a chance of a tangential connection to the issue, perhaps we can now start to approach the topic methodically.

First, it is clear to me, as I have indicated earlier, that skepticism on religion makes perfect sense;   atheism makes precisely as much sense as fundamentalism, and for the same reason:   both assert more certainty than is justified.    Fundamentalism of course is preferable to atheism, I'm sure you'll agree, since fundamentalism at least states that the believer is to take the idea of certainty on faith. Atheism is not honest enough to do this.
This is of course why atheists are intellectually dishonest.

At any rate, it would be greatly appreciated if all of our illustrious posters who are proud to claim the title, not of United States Marine, but of atheist, would provide a short statement on exactly why they call themselves atheists, not skeptics. And there is a difference.   For elucidation, you are cordially invited to consult your respective dictionaries.

Of course, in common with other Mudcat posters, most notably the honorable Mr. Slingshot, I freely admit I am not perfect.   It is possible that I have missed such a statement given earlier in this riveting thread.   If so, please quote the exact statement. No tome necessary, thank you


That at least should be a start. We can go on from there.


If by some chance you don't feel you want to comply, something about "heat" and "kitchen" comes to mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 10:32 AM

OED Definition

Atheist

noun
a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods:

To disbelive or lack belief in something one has to know what that something is. I, for one, have no idea what it is I am supposed to believe or disbelive in. Is it the god of Christians? Muslems? Jews? Is it the gods that existed before those? Or the ones that may exist after? Give me a definition of god that EVERYONE agrees on and I will tell you whether I believe in it or not.


As to

fundamentalism at least states that the believer is to take the idea of certainty on faith. Atheism is not honest enough to do this.

Nonsense. I have faith in my own reasoning and base my conclusions on that. I am sure everyone has faith in themselves or otherwise they would never believe a thing they said :-)

Besides, there are no Atheists on here. We are all adherants of Ball Lightning and trust in the mercy of Messiahs S&M. Just because you have missed the bus to endless joy and riches you are jelous...

bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket happy to oblige
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 12:40 PM

Ron. I don't believe that Allah had a magic carpet because I have yet to see magic performed. I don't believe that Mary was a virgin because IVF is a recent advancement in science. I don't believe Noah put all the animals in an ark because he would have forgotten marsupials due to Australia not being on his radar. The RAF who weren't around hadn't developed radar either.

I could go on.

I don't worry over imaginary friends. For Clapton's sake, I imagine my late father is the only listener when I perform, and every song is for him. Whatever floats your boat.

No. My beef is organisations called religions that traditionally try to control society and use some God concept to scare people into submission.

Fuck em. This is the 21st century. Most of us don't need it, have no place for it and as they can't all be right, it follows they can however all be wrong. Not a statistic that allows them to take your money, fuck with your head and give you a sense of guilt.

The masses have soap operas, Simon Cowell and sporting events. The thinkers have the freedom to laugh as they always have but with less retribution shovelled their way.

I'm not an atheist. I have no idea what the score is. My point is that neither does the pope, Archbishop of Canterbury or any other superstition wielding teacher wishing to tell us what to think.

I taught my sons how to think instead. That allows me to sleep soundly at night.



That any good for you?

Don't confuse rejecting out of hand with offering an alternative stance. I respect faith, I don't respect it pushing its nose where it isn't wanted nor needed.

Our faith on this thread may have teething problems but we have a guitar, a harmonica and a musical gnome. More than most religions start with.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 01:00 PM

1400!

bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 02:53 PM

atheism makes precisely as much sense as fundamentalism, and for the same reason:   both assert more certainty than is justified.

No self-respecting bona fide atheist ever expresses certainty about God's non-existence. I haven't a clue whether God exists or not. But I've weighed up the evidence for and against (actually, there isn't any evidence "for", I've found). My conclusion is that the likelihood of his existing is so remote that I can cheerfully conduct my life without worrying about him. I can't "prove" whether there's a God or not, any more than the most stupidly-blind religious fundamentalist can. Richard Dawkins doesn't know whether there's a God or not. He cheerfully tells us that. The only certainties in these matters are expressed by believers, and by no means just fundamentalists. Every prayer said in the Mass is redolent with certainty about God's existence. Now you left your cassock on the back pew, so kindly remove it. It's got skidmarks on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 08:36 PM

Well, I just heard something real interesting on the radio.

It seems clear some of our illustrious UK atheists tend to think of the US as being in the grip of firebreathing religious zealots.

In this light, it's noteworthy that a local atheist organization has convinced (no doubt monetary compensation was involved) a Minnesota team called the St. Paul Saints to play a game tomorrow night while calling themselves the Mr. Paul Ain'ts- with, I gather, jerseys etc. reflecting this.    Reaction of the team, fans, and others in the area--including strong believers:   no problem.

Just perhaps the ones who have no sense of humor about religion are some of our beloved UK atheists, who, in a country where approximately 5% percent of the population are regular churchgoers, have convinced themselves that they are a poor persecuted minority.    Can you say "absurd paranoia"?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 08:48 PM

I challenge you to find a single post in which an atheist has complained about being "persecuted" by believers. Perhaps we can find you an internship in our new Department Of Myth Creation. You seem to be bloody good at that! And wasn't that sporting story so, er...telling?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket again
Date: 09 Aug 13 - 12:15 PM

Your idea wouldn't work over here.

Two reasons.

1. We have real sports, not rounders and rugby with body armour.

2. There is a word in our language called atheist. It isn't a positive assertion as it seems to be in Dumbfuckistan but means irreligious basically. Not sure how you field a team of 50 million......

Now if you don't mind, I'm busy writing the bits of our scripture dealing with screwing up people's minds and false hope. May have to plagiarise from those who are bloody good at it.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Aug 13 - 11:02 AM

Two shrimps, Crispin and Bob, mates for years, were toddling their way across the ocean bed when an enormous fish fish appeared above them; both of them make a dive under the nearest rock.
The fish says; "don't be afraid, I'm really a fairy Codmother and I'm empowered by the Codfather to grant you a wish".
Bob refuses to move but Crispin says, "I'm fed up with being small and shrimpy - I'd like to be a shark".
"Granted" - bang-flash! Crispin becomes a huge shark and swims away, leaving Bob on his own.
After a few years of swimming around on his own because all the other sea-creatures were too afraid to come near him he says to himself, "bugger this for a shark, I'll go and see if I can find that Codmother and try to get to turn me back into a shrimp".
After months and months of searching he eventually finds her and from the cockles of her heart, she returns him to his former self.
Back he swims to Bob's house - "Rockmount" - and knockes at the door.
Eventually Bob comes out and says, "What in Cod's name do you want after all this time - you swam off and left me to fend for myself - I've got new friends now - on your Pike?"
"You don't understand - can't we take up where we left off - I'm a born-again Crispin" now.
Back to your beds
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Aug 13 - 11:23 AM

"certainty on God's existence".    But you reserve the right to constantly attack those who do believe.    While they, on Mudcat, are willing to live and let live. Sorry, your noses are growing.


And your attempts to muddy the water between atheism and skepticism are, in a word, pathetic, Either you are atheists or skeptics.    Sorry, this is not a Chinese menu.

It's fascinating that our Mudcat atheists (who are now attemptng to back away from the term--wonder why)---endorse that world-renowned scientist, Mr. Dawkins, who has accomplished so much in the field (even though the only science he seems to have mastered is the science of polemics), over that also-ran, Einstein.


Einstein on atheists:    "The fanatical atheists" (a good description for some of our contributors on this thread) "are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle.    They are creatures who--in their grudge against traditional religion as the "opium of the masses"--cannot hear the music of the spheres."    Seems to be a remarkably snug fit for Mr. Shaw, considering his background. And perhaps for others.

Einstein on science and religion, as I'm sure you've heard before:    "Science without religion is lame;   religion without science is blind".    Which is very likely the view of Joe and some others on Mudcat. In other words, both are essential.

Also:   "Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the universe--a spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we with our modest powers must feel humble."


Humble of course except for those who have all the answers already--like Mr. Dawkins and his yes-men amply represented on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,musket calling Ron a c
Date: 10 Aug 13 - 02:33 PM

Nobody shifts from anything you lying git.

I said from post 1 of the pathetic God botherers threads to feel smug over their delusion that atheist is a term invented by those with imaginary friends to be able to stigmatise rational people for not being daft or vulnerable enough to fall for fairy stories.

Next.   Chinese menus are what you believe in not me.   If you take your point and apply it to yourself, you believe in having slaves, shagging prostitutes instead of wanking, killibg people for not sharing your delusion and all the rest of the repugnant bits of the Bible.

Luckily for society, you are all hypocrites, even the nice ones. Choosing from menus is a trait of those using Scripture to justify what they would be ashamed of without it.

Science is about discovering how things tick. Religion is making wild arsed guesses by desert dwellers a couple of thousand years ago and killing each other over interpretations before defending the bits that can't physically happen.

I know no atheists and if I did I would put them in the same boat as you. Someone who believes things without proof. I believe what I see work. Till someone comes up with a better idea of how it works.

I happen to be rather pleased with attaining a PhD in a scientific original thought concept. A small part of my thesis has since been revised by another thesis. I was on his viva hearing and was delighted to have him revise my thoughts through new interpretations.   Nothing sacred in science so what you read heard or made up is basically bollocks.

Nothing personal but keep your fairy in your head not on your keyboard.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Aug 13 - 04:49 PM

""Einstein on science and religion, as I'm sure you've heard before:    "Science without religion is lame;   religion without science is blind".    Which is very likely the view of Joe and some others on Mudcat. In other words, both are essential.""

Even for those who believe in a deity, religion is not essential, and often not even desirable.

All that is essential is faith, which is not the same as, nor even related to, religion.

The world's different religions (with just one or two exceptions) have been less concerned with faith and worship, than with control and internecine warfare.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Aug 13 - 06:08 PM

While they, on Mudcat, are willing to live and let live.

Excuse me a minute.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Oh, and one more thing

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha


bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 10 Aug 13 - 07:18 PM

Yawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwn!!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Aug 13 - 07:52 PM

Ron, your last post is just a pile of bilious, disconnected, unfocussed tosh. Take my advice and stick to those short, pithy ones you're so "good" at. At least, being mercifully brief, they don't give you the chance to make an arse of yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 02:00 AM

Steve Shaw wrote No self-respecting bona fide atheist ever expresses certainty about God's non-existence. I haven't a clue whether God exists or not. But I've weighed up the evidence for and against (actually, there isn't any evidence "for", I've found).

There's a reason I don't visit this thread - the back and forth is brutal, especially when it's a contest between thinkers vs believers (yes a low blow, but seems suited to this thread).

I'm an atheist and I'm convinced there is no god. I am not an agnostic (my mother used to tell me "say you're agnostic - it's more polite.") The liberal philosophical view of religion sees it as a way that cultures devised to get along, and how they respond to the unknown (superstition). They were critical to survival for illiterate and uneducated individuals who followed spiritual leaders with a religion that rose from the land and taught people when to plant and harvest and how to safely deal with food and the animals in their world; they established mores and folkways. But religions in urban areas are different than autochthonous religions and became all the more of a power and riches grab for the leaders. The industrial religions (christianity, judaism, muslim, primarily) hinge on maintaining control, not just of members of the religion, but of others who don't participate or believe. That's the problem - the insidious proselytizing and insistence that secular law reflect religious beliefs. And why separating church and state is more essential than ever.

Just checking in tonight to see if there is more spam than usual. Looks about normal.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 02:55 AM

And there, inadvertently, is the problem.

Do we all see yellow the same?   Do we all use the word atheist the same?

The former cannot by today's technology be answered and the latter never will because it is subjective.

Hence my getting a bit angry earlier with expressed stupidity.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 08:33 AM

It doesn't matter how horrid you think religions have been in controlling people's minds (and they have). That isn't evidence that God doesn't exist. I don't know whether God exists. That's as honest as I can be about it. Dawkins doesn't know either - he says as much. You say you're convinced there's no God. Well I could say that as well, and I live my life that way, but I can't be 100% convinced because the evidence against him, whilst extremely powerful, is not 100% conclusive, and never can be. If we want to use the word "atheist" at all, then I don't think you can really be "more atheist" than me! I try not to get too hung up over the word. 'Tain't a good characterisation of us, but at least we sort of know what we're talking about when we use it.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 11:36 AM

Steve, you're still showing evidence of having drunk that koolaid. Using uppercase "G" when discussing one god as is the belief of the industrial religions, and referring to "him." Saying that you accept there probably isn't a god but using the words put in place via the hegemony of the modern urban churches is a sign that they've managed to establish a level of influence on you. I feel no such influence. I can accept that good things happen to people and it isn't the result of a benign unseen fatherly hand, just as I understand that shit happens and it isn't the wrath of god.

There's a lot about human brains and about energy that we don't understand - I'd rather learn about them through the scientific method than let a church claim credit for interesting things that we view superstitiously.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 06:43 PM

I'm afraid that you're going to have to focus a little more carefully before I can glean what your bloody point is. And I have no idea what Coolaid is. I don't take drugs and I only post when I'm completely compos mentis, thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 12:22 PM

"No self-respecting bona fide atheist ever expresses certainty about God's non-existence".

Rather dubious, but let's go with it.

So, since that is the case, let's hear all the professed atheists on this thread admit publicly and individually that there is a chance God exists.

This should be entertaining.

And then you can tell us how you pledge to to refrain from attacking the beliefs of those who differ from your attitudes towards religion.   Since after all you have just admitted that the difference between your belief in God and their belief is a just a matter of degree. And there is a chance that they may be right and you may be wrong.

I'm sure that, being reasonable and civilized people, you have no problem in any of this.

However, I will not be holding my breath.

The statement which comprises the title of this immensely worthwhile and informative thread has been proven beyond doubt by our wonderful contributors.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 12:39 PM

Stilly, you are absolutely right. This thread is bogus. It should never have been started in the first place and no one has learned anything valuable on it except to express ignorance, intolerance and outright stupidity. I personally don't care if a god exists or not. It's not important. What is important is that this thread has generated not tolerance or understanding but angry and violent outbursts with insults that make a mockery of any professed so-called "christian" behavior. Joe, take it off.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 01:43 PM

Joe doesn't answer to you prat.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 06:06 PM

So, since that is the case, let's hear all the professed atheists on this thread admit publicly and individually that there is a chance God exists.

Of course there is chance that god exists. There is a chance that the Easter bunny and Santa Claus exist too. The possibilities are endless which is what makes the universe such a fascinating place and one that should not be subjected to superstitious nonsense. What you cannot seem to understand, Ron, is that no-one on here is taking issue with believing in a god. In fact, we all want you too so we can cash in on it.

I cannot speak for the others but what I take exception too is someone forcing the view that god exists and created this world on other people. I have no issue at all with those who believe in god, the devil or the tooth fairy. But when they tell me that I have to do the same I will happily tell them to F Off. When they also think that they can bend the mind of my children and grand children to believe in their nonsense as well, not only will I tell them to F off, I will help them on their way with a boot up the arse.

Trouble is, Ron, in thinking you were so clever with your last post you only showed your ignorance of what atheism is. It means, to me, that I don't have to follow the rules of your, or anyone else's, imaginary friend. It means that I am happy to let you dance around the maypole, kneel down and face east, take it up the bum from your local priest and do whatever the hell you like. Then, if you try to convince me to do the same, take the piss out of you without any guilt whatsoever.

So...

bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 06:06 PM

So, since that is the case, let's hear all the professed atheists on this thread admit publicly and individually that there is a chance God exists....

Yep, I'm a professed atheist, as implacable as they come. And I'm happy to admit that there's a chance God exists. Weeee!

...after all you have just admitted that the difference between your belief in God and their belief is a just a matter of degree. And there is a chance that they may be right and you may be wrong.

Well no, not really. I have neither a belief nor a disbelief in God. Faith, you see, has played no part in my arriving at my position. All I've done is weighed up the evidence. My enquiries managed to eliminate superstition, fear, magic, myth, tradition, ceremony, miracles ancient and modern, shrouds, relics of the true cross, edicts from holy men, dodgy ancient texts and the uncorroborated claims of supposed witnesses. As for just a matter of degree, what you're missing is my view that the possibility of God's existing is about the same as there being seven-legged little blue men living on Saturn's rings, or as there being a tribe of fairies in my garden who only come out at night. As I have no wish to align meself with those who harbour such religious certainty that their hymns, prayers and the way they miseducate their children reflect it, you won't get me to say those things are impossible. As for right and wrong, I don't give a damn. We can never know. If you think I'm just a bit further along some kind of imaginary belief spectrum than the general mass of Godsquadders, you've got it lamentably wrong (like everything else you sour-facedly spout about). Hope this helps!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 06:09 PM

Impeccable timing, Dave. Almost...messianic, I'd say...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 06:22 PM

I was obviously possessed by my Messiahs holy presence. And the dodgy DVD of Betty and the bingo caller you sent earlier...

bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 06:32 PM

I thought you were the bingo caller until something happened to your ball bag in the car park...?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket between courses
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 07:38 PM

Eyes down look in.   See the wonder of our creation!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 07:43 PM

Yeah but no photocopying the bloody bingo card to save money, huh?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 05:14 AM

Errrr... No, it wasn't me. I don't look like that and I was only there metaphysically. Besides, I can't bend over like that at my age. It must have been a visitation by the holy spirits. Maybe Whisky and Gin?

bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 05:45 AM

Actually, I was thinking of replacing stale communion wine containing priestly spittle with Talisker. All in favour? Though next time I try it I'm cleaning the chalice out meself first. Last time, I caught Swollox doing it with the bog brush.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: bobad
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 07:06 AM

Oops!

"Religious people are less intelligent than non-believers, according to a new review of 63 scientific studies stretching back over decades.

A team led by Miron Zuckerman of the University of Rochester found "a reliable negative relation between intelligence and religiosity" in 53 out of 63 studies. Even in extreme old age, intelligent people are less likely to believe, the researchers found - and the reasons why people with high IQs shun religion may not be as simple as previously thought."

Religious people are less intelligent than atheists, study finds

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 07:21 AM

Hmm. Much as I'd love to loudly applaud such a finding, I have to clench my voluminous buttocks when I read stuff like this:

A 1916 study quoted in Zuckerman's paper (Leuba) found that, "58% of randomly selected scientists in the United States expressed disbelief in, or doubt regarding the existence of God; this proportion rose to nearly 70% for the most eminent scientists."

Maybe I should read the study, but the above sentence is just weasel words. "Randomly-selected", huh? "Disbelief in or doubt"? "Most eminent"? Sounds suspiciously like popular proto-gutter-science to me, though, as I say, perhaps I should read that study. I'm disinclined for some reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 10:39 PM

Sorry, I've been busy elsewhere.   

Now, where were we? Ah yes.

As I've mentioned before, I don't have a dog in this fight. On religion I'm Laodicean (look it up--I'm glad to be able to play a small role in your continuing education.)

Yet again, I'm only interested in fair play.   Mudcat believers are willing to extend it to atheists, but some of our current atheist posters are for their own inscrutable reasons (are they Oriental, perhaps?) unwilling to return the favor.

It seems, based on the conduct of some UK atheists, that on the subject of religion the vaunted British sense of fair play is a fond memory.    On no provocation but their own paranoia, they constantly attack religion and the religious.   Since it's well known that an unmistakable field mark of the evangelist--even better than wing bars--is constantly attacking the perceived foe, some of our illustrious Mudcat atheists have proven over and over that they are evangelists for atheism. And they are just as charming as fundamentalist evangelists--and for the same reasons.

Only difference appears to be that on Mudcat there are no Christian evangelists, while we are blessed with several of the atheist pursuasion.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 10:43 PM

"willing to extend toleration to atheists..."


"persuasion"

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket being patriotic
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 03:15 AM

Keep banging the rocks together Ron. Also, do some reading up before touching your keyboard. Far less embarrassing all round. pete wouldn't br happy if you said he wasn't a Christian evangelist. We here on this thread meanwhile have invented another true religion. If it suits us and is convenient for delusional purposes, it can even be woven into Bible nonsense, just like a few hundred others were.

Hey co Messiah and associated Gnome! I may have found the true token woman. I bought her a milk stout last night and she agreed. Her name is Dodgy Dora and her knees don't get to see much of each other but her heart is in the right place she reckons. She may also come in handy when we write our section about spilling seed.

Snag is, she isn't quite certain if there is a real world outside Barnsley. She has seen the rest of the world on the telly but reckons it is all a studio set in Cudworth.   Her philosophy seems great for forming the bedrock of a religion.

She isn't into all that fair play nonsense either.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 03:56 AM

On no provocation but their own paranoia, they constantly attack religion and the religious.

No provocation? How about 2000 and odd years of oppression, violence, torture, abuse, scheming, stealing, lying, cheating etc etc? Just how much provocation do you need?

Anyway, I am quote willing to forgive. Our new religion is all about love and peas. Particularly if the love is from Dodgy Dora and the peas come with fish and chips.

I can't remember what task you were given, Ron? If you are not too busy being run over by hoards of mad cyclists can you take on the role of the wild eyed hermit that comes in from the desert every now and again and spouts gibberish that the gullible can interpret as deep and meaningful? Sort of continue what you do so well?

bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 06:34 AM

""On no provocation but their own paranoia, they constantly attack religion and the religious.""

Straw man strikes again!

Your prettily constructed perversion of the realities doesn't bear scrutiny once one looks at the identity of the original poster(s) on all of these "Atheists are evil" threads.

Not one has been started by an Atheist to attack the religious.

The reverse is the case. Every one has been started as a means to provoke a reaction from Atheists, so that the religious original poster can claim to be the victim of those nasty infidels.

I am not an Atheist, but rather than subscribe to what passes for religion among posters to this thread, I would join the Atheists' ranks.

They come across as much more honest and sincere than their opponents.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 08:08 AM

On no provocation but their own paranoia, they constantly attack religion and the religious.

But we never start these arguments, do we! And if I constantly attacked religion and the religious I'd have neither friends nor family. Organised religion is up for grabs as far as I'm concerned, and I don't mind attacking unreasonable behaviour or ludicrous claims for faith made in public, sending children to faith schools or denying evolution, for example.

This Dora, Musket. I happen to be currently looking for a gospel writer (she only needs to have vaguely heard of us as well as having a fertile imagination). Do you think she could keep her legs together for long enough to pen a trial chapter or two? We could call her efforts The Barnsley Scrolls, written in thick felt-tip on used chip wrappers. Obviously we'd have to pretend to "discover" them somewhere. Are there caves in Barnsley?

How's her hygiene, by the way? Once bitten and all that...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 08:08 AM

On no provocation but their own paranoia, they constantly attack religion and the religious.

But we never start these arguments, do we! And if I constantly attacked religion and the religious I'd have neither friends nor family. Organised religion is up for grabs as far as I'm concerned, and I don't mind attacking unreasonable behaviour or ludicrous claims for faith made in public, sending children to faith schools or denying evolution, for example.

This Dora, Musket. I happen to be currently looking for a gospel writer (she only needs to have vaguely heard of us as well as having a fertile imagination). Do you think she could keep her legs together for long enough to pen a trial chapter or two? We could call her efforts The Barnsley Scrolls, written in thick felt-tip on used chip wrappers. Obviously we'd have to pretend to "discover" them somewhere. Are there caves in Barnsley?

How's her hygiene, by the way? Once bitten and all that...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 08:17 AM

I don't fancy the Barnsley Scrolls. Sounds like an STD. Although, we are talking about friends of Musket...

No caves in Barnsley as far as I know. How about Mother Shiptons in Knaresborough or Stump Cross Caverns in Nidderdale? I quite like the sound of the latter myself.

bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 10:25 AM

...Wookey hole sounds like somewhere you could get the Barnsley Scrolls as well.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans blood of the Messiah
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 11:07 AM

No problem with the Barnsley scrolls these days. Quick course of antibiotics and Robert's yer Aunty's husband.

No caves in Barnsley? The Bush up at Kingston is dark, gets smaller as you go further into it and the wildlife stares at you from the edges. How more cave do you want?

Did a gig there once but more importantly some family friends used to have it. Spent time there as a lad.

Her hygiene is impeccable. Always takes her teeth out.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 03:02 PM

Yebbut "Dead Sea Scrolls" sounds like middle-eastern gippy tummy and it worked for them. The Bush in Kingston sounds good to me. Hide the chip wrappers deep up there and protect the site with a scattering of dog turds (Leave 'em in those scrotaceous little plastic bags if you're squeamish - they look great dangling from low bushes). After a couple of weeks the scrolls will look suitably antiqued and we can get a lowly and simple little Barnsley shepherd lad to "discover" 'em. Easy!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 05:23 PM

Brilliant work. Messiahs. I defer to your better judgement and Barnsley it is.

Did I ever tell you the tale of my returning from Barnsley via the Woodhead road and stopping of to wander around Crowden for a while? I had not long since given up smoking and was rather narked that one of the people I was visiting was hand rolling Golden Virginia in Rizla liquorice papers - My former weed of choice. On the way back to Salford I decided to unwind by parking up at Crowden hostel and walking up the path at the side of the brook for half an hour or so. Well, bugger me, I had not gone 20 yards when there, on a raised area at the side of the path and, I kid you not, lit up by an errant sunbeam, was a packet of Marlboro and a Zippo lighter! Well, I took it as sign from the gods (you bastards) that I was to start smoking again. So I did.

Stopped again later of course, but it was genuine divine intervention. Is it as good as ball lightning?

bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 05:33 PM

Got caught short there once walking back to the camp site. Knackered having walked from Kinderscout. Perhaps the fags were there to keep the smell of results of dried instant food bags and mint cake away.   Sorry about that, circa 1986 if memory serves me well.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 05:38 PM

Knackered having walked from Kinderscout

I know that feeling as well. My mate Dave (yes, another Gnome. We are all called Dave) and I had started at Edale and done the first part of the Pennine Way, over Kinder and Bleaklow, to end at Crowden car park. I kid you not when I say that had the car been parked at the other end of the car park I would not have made it!

bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 06:49 PM

You can make out the well-named Bleaklow and Black Hill from my mum and dad's house, just about. Those dark and peaty wastes are not for me. anywhere 'twixt Settle and Ribblehead will do me. Did much botanising and rambling there in my yoof. I remember thinking what a bloody mistake it was to do the Three Peaks in brand-new unbroken-in boots. Ah, the folly of the young! Messiah's own country up there it is, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 16 Aug 13 - 02:08 AM

The 3 peaks has had anti erosion paths built over the years. You could possibly push a pram round it now. I did it two years ago with friends and bored them all the way with my "in my day, you did a scramble up this bit on hands and knees you know. Not this pussy cat proper bloody path you know. ..."

Back in 1982ish I clocked in at 10 hours 12 mins but that included both pubs. . The last time on a motorway and one pub was 11 hours dead. And felt it.

I didn't realise we teenagers aged you know.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Aug 13 - 03:29 AM

I did all 3 in the same year once - Does that count?

bollocks!!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Aug 13 - 05:42 AM

'Twas in approx. 1981 that I did it too, in late October. We had just about 10 hours of daylight and we finished in the gloaming. We headed for a nosh in a pub in Settle and at the end I couldn't get off the bar stool to put my feet on the ground. Do NOT attempt the Three Peaks in brand-new boots. And that is a messianic edict, issued ex cathedra. Bollocks, we're out of bog paper again...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Aug 13 - 05:55 AM

Bugger. I just noticed you said '82, not '81. And here's me trying to make discussion board misrepresentation a mortal sin...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Aug 13 - 06:19 AM

""...Wookey hole sounds like somewhere you could get the Barnsley Scrolls as well.""

And besides, that Chewbacca looks a bit fierce,....and VERY large.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Aug 13 - 08:30 AM

Are any of these places near Knott End? We don't want logistical issues...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket getting geographical details wrong
Date: 16 Aug 13 - 09:40 AM

Just over the Forest of Bowland to the Craven district.

Here Don. You are close to one of our commandments. Never disturb a wookie when he is having a tricky shit.   I did in my dreams and have never run so fast. The significance of this vision escapes me but good advice from a co Messiah regardless.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Aug 13 - 08:31 PM

OK, but do we know of anyone selling a minibus cheap?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Aug 13 - 08:41 PM

I don't know whether it's of interest to you two divinities and acompanying garden fisher of ......er......Koi Carp, but if you are thinking of expansion in the future, there is a plavce in Kent called Pratts Bottom.

Has a kind of holy ring to it, don't you think.

Bollocks!
Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Aug 13 - 11:44 AM

That's too bad. Missed the fall of Constantinople.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 Aug 13 - 11:40 AM

Here's an idea:    let's go back to the beginning of time;   that is, to the start of the thread.

McGrath had an explanation of the difference between agnosticism and atheism. He said atheists "do have a 'faith' , by which I mean a settled belief about how the world works."

On that basis, are you atheist or agnostic?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 Aug 13 - 01:24 PM

I think we've crossed the rubicon into the land of generalizations. Some atheists may have a faith and others don't. Some atheists call themselves agnostic. Some atheists go out of their way to attack religious people, some don't. Some religious people are fundamentalist in their view that the bible is meant to be taken literally, not metaphorically. Some claim that Jesus existed and others say that it doesn't matter, what matters is what he stood for. Some claim that Jesus was not a pacifist and others claim he was. Some religious people accept Darwin and others don't. Some like the Old Testament and others prefer the New. Some atheists decide not to express their view in order to convince religious people that they are wrong. Some special religionists decide not to deride atheists for not believing, being able to empathize with that point of view.

This is the nature of warfare, the insistence on generalizing and making people wrong.

It has to stop. Otherwise as we see in the world today, the generalizations and enemy posing of countries, tribes, cults etc. lead to bloodshed and no resolution to basic human problems such as will we exist in fifty to one hundred years? Will some in the world go hungry while others are wealthy at their expense? Will we stop building weaponry that can exterminate the human race? Or certain members of it?

I see no resolution to the arguments that have been presented here. I don't see an attempt on the part of the people here to try and understand why others think differently from them. I come back to this thread looking for new information that is enlightening and all I find is hurled insults and self-righteous lines in the sand.

Surely there are intelligent people on this thread that can present their personal points of view which apply to them only. That would be interesting. A little history, background on how you arrive at the conclusions without speaking for others would be enlightening. I think Joe Offer did do this and although I come from a different point of view, I found Joe's expression interesting and I could understand it without trying to make him wrong.

This post is already too long but I might try to give you some background in the future as to how and why I arrived at my conclusions in hope that you might find that interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans blood of the Messiah
Date: 19 Aug 13 - 02:32 AM

How can this thread be too long? Our religion is fledgling yet!

We haven't got to the bits where we swap our pious hypocrisy for people's land and worldly goods. At least let us have our crusades, inquisition and looking down on people first!   We also haven't got as far as exporting it to the colonies although Sailor Boy seemed to be courting the idea of being our scapegoat Messiah at one stage, if I read his comments correctly. Difficult to tell sometimes.

Ok. Am I atheist or agnostic? I have no idea. You tell me. After all, both words were developed in order to label people as different to the mainstream, as such people were in the more superstitious past. Me? I'm just Musket or Ian or "Wrong key you pillock, we're in D now! " I answer to all sorts of names. Co Messiah has a ring to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 19 Aug 13 - 03:09 PM

go for it, sringsinger. a little intelligent discussion as to how we arrived at our convictions and beliefs would make a refreshing change.
I think I have expressed something of how I came to a faith position in the past but am happy to do so again at serious enquiry.
regards   pete.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 19 Aug 13 - 04:48 PM

That's me out then. Serious enquiry isn't my strong point.

Anyway, if you read what is put rather than who put it for once, you may notice I seriously tried to answer the atheist v agnostic conundrum from my perspective.

If you were to consider a genuine curiosity question; is your creationism coming from your faith or does your faith come from your analysis of what creationism logically leads to?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Aug 13 - 03:19 AM

Yo, Messiahs

Of course you will already know that I have been away for the weekend. Moira Furnace. Nice girl, hot stuff...

Anyway, have I missed anything. Not having the omniscience can be a bit restrictive for us mere mortals, you know.

Bollocks!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket the Co Messiah
Date: 20 Aug 13 - 03:44 AM

You've missed nowt and bugger all.

pete seems too be monitoring this thread, so we had better be careful. No mobile phones when grouping together, checking the Met Office forecast for big lightning balls and associated dire prognostications, etc.

Our Bernard used to speak highly of a lass in Horwich called Knocking Nelly, thinking on. If she survived that 69er, we can see if she may be available?

In the meantime, the emissary from Dumbfuckistan has been quiet for a day or two. Hopefully mulling over our offer. I doubt he could get used to warm beer, pickled eggs and mushy peas but if we introduced snakes to our services, he may feel more at home?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Aug 13 - 06:04 AM

""go for it, sringsinger. a little intelligent discussion as to how we arrived at our convictions and beliefs would make a refreshing change.
I think I have expressed something of how I came to a faith position in the past but am happy to do so again at serious enquiry.
regards   pete.""

It's not your faith I have issues with Pete, it's the lunatic religion to which that faith has led you. In the face of the total impossibility of the bible being literal tuth, you have been brainwashed by a bunch of evangelising pseudo scientists into suspending every critical faculty you might once have possessed, in order to believe that every form of genuine scientific achievement which utterly disproves their bullshit is wrong.

The whole of scientific knowledge relating to the age of this planet covers numerous separate disciplines, which correlate and correspond too tightly for there to be any possibility of error beyond the acceptable margins of error of any scientific proof.

The sum total of Creationist "knowledge" would not be cramped in the space available on the back of a postage stamp.

I too have FAITH, but I haven't given up thinking for myself.

If your God is the being you think he is, why do you need other men to help you interact with him?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 Aug 13 - 11:41 AM

I grew up as a non-believer but I explored a lot of religions. On my mother's side, a long line of Jews. My step-father was a non-believer. My mother oddly enough was raised Catholic but she never communicated any of this to me as a child. Later, I explored different religions, was baptized as a Congregationalist, got into B'ahai, Nichoren Shoshu, worked with the Quakers sending care packages to Europe, went to black baptist churches for the great music, and went through Sidha Yoga. I learned what I could about comparative religions and found them interesting. Mostly, my questions were about why people could believe in them. I attended different churches, even fundamentalist ones and Black churches associated with the Civil Rights Movement.

In short, I was exposed to many religions and as a result, the common denominator for me is that none of them make any sense to me. I am not out to denigrate anyone's belief system but I believe there are legitimate questions to be asked about the value of the nature of belief. I come to my views over many years of searching and exposure. I realize that any criticism of religion will be taken personally by those adherents.

Still, a discussion of the merits of belief is profitable because there are so many negative aspects as to how religion is employed. When Marx suggested that religion was the opiate of the people, in his day, opiates were in common usage and didn't have the stigma of today. He was stating a fact. I think that Stalinism is a religion and in fact he patterned his application in his version of Communism based on early religious training.

Naziism is a form of religion. Both Hitler and Stalin were gods. In Japan, Shinoism
supplied gods in the form of rulers.

The question remains, who are the militant atheists? Are those such as Richard Dawkins really militant or is he like so many others searching for truthful answers? I think that gross generalizations are made here. Some atheists appear militant. Others will offend if they dare to question religion.

I don't have any faith but I have hope that mankind will resolve differences with peace.
For this, no god is necessary in my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket in festival mode
Date: 20 Aug 13 - 12:45 PM

Here Dave.. You're not the only one with Swadlincote in his SatNav history... Not this time, but that there Moria lass has form. Sloppy seconds after a co Messiah could be dangerous to your health...

I wanted to go this year, if only because Paul Metsers borrowed a fiver off me in circa 1982 and he went to ground for many years. I met up with some mates in Whitby instead and had a bloody good time. That said, green to the gills with envy and hopefully next year......

I hope the more serious posters have noticed we had pulled off a new religion AND not needed a God?   The co Messiahs and associated gnome are merely a committee to rake off a percentage of all the money we end up making from the meek, lowly, pious and gullible. Mind you, very slow progress on that front.....

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Aug 13 - 06:55 PM

Richard Dawkins is seeking truth, like all good scientists, by seeking evidence. 'Tain't hard.

Some religious people accept Darwin and others don't.

I have a big issue with this. Valiant though those believers are, they simply can't have their cake and eat it. If you believe in a God who is anything like close to the image of the all-powerful creator figure, then, try as you might, you simply can't espouse evolution as well. It really should be make-your-mind-up time if you're being honest with yourself. The creator God can't operate without goals, yet evolution has goals as its anathema. The ideas are mutually exclusive. I've seen brave stabs at this, for example "God kicked off evolution then let it run" and "God is the driving force behind evolution", but you are simply indulging in a massive and dishonest intellectual copout in your effort to avoid conflict with science. The fact is that God cannot be inserted into evolution at any point along the way, from the very first manifestation of life right up to the wonderful diversity we see today. He doesn't fit anywhere. The laws of nature take care of everything. Trying to give God a role is like trying to persuade people that prunes are wonderful in a Victoria sponge. You can try to make the case, but you have a hell of a lot of explaining to do, and you're doomed to failure.

Been oop north for a few days, taking me owld mum for drives out (her legs are all but gone these days). We tootled around Toddy and Hebden Bridge on Sunday, heading back over the tops to Colne via Heptonstall and gorgeous it was in the sparkling sun. On Monday we noshed at The Bull at Broughton near Skipton and then pottered around t'Dales via Grassington, Arncliffe and Malham. Gobsmacking. Frustrating not being able to get out for a ramble but couldn't really abandon Muvvah for that kind of stuff. Still, gorgeous to see it was. I wasn't a bad creator at all when I come to think of it. It wasn't you who made Burnley, was it, Musket? Not Turf Moor of course. That was me, clearly.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Aug 13 - 08:40 PM

Science is the religion of guessing...
Religion is the science of pretending.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Aug 13 - 09:04 AM

""Science is the religion of guessing...
Religion is the science of pretending.

GfS""

Very profound.....ly meaningless!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Aug 13 - 09:12 AM

You excelled yerself there, all right, Guffers. I seldom read your rants these days but my eyes light up when I see something that might one day appear on your tombstone. Mind you, at ten quid a letter you could shorten it a bit. How about "I was a twat"?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Aug 13 - 09:12 AM

You excelled yerself there, all right, Guffers. I seldom read your rants these days but my eyes light up when I see something that might one day appear on your tombstone. Mind you, at ten quid a letter you could shorten it a bit. How about "I was a twat"?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 21 Aug 13 - 10:02 AM

you certainly have a varied and multifaceted background stringsinger, - mine not nearly so.
my parents were not practising believers.my brother and I only attending sunday school for a short while but soon bored with it.
as a young teenager I considered myself atheist, for no profound reasoning, but a friend invited me to a youth meeting at the local Pentecostal church. naturally speaking ,I don't know why I went then ,or continued to attend that,, and the usual service, for a long time still declaring myself an unbeliever.
I suppose it could be put down to a sense of belonging, and certainly I was welcome there.

my mindset began to change and I read about fulfilled bible prophecy and the unlikeliness of evolutionism, though the material then was a lot less than now, and eventually I believed in God.
it was a while later when I responded to the" alter call "professing faith in Christ as my lord and saviour.
I did not feel much different, though enthusiastic.
there used to be "waiting meetings" and at one of these I had a very powerful experience of speaking in tongues ,which I think further cemented my faith.
I don't consider it easy being a Christian but I have no doubt of my faith in God ,though some things in the bible have needed working through.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,musket there you go
Date: 21 Aug 13 - 10:10 AM

Aye. I have been known to speak in tongues too. Theakstons Old Peculiar rather than God though. The brewery is in God's own county I suppose.

Pentacostal eh? It seems prayer is cheaper than anti retrovirals according to some of the criminal element of Pentacostal church leaders. So so sad and frankly disturbing.

If you are still involved with that lot, I sincerely hope you are telling the lunatics amongst them to stop killing people.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 21 Aug 13 - 10:21 AM

Steve Shaw: "Mind you, at ten quid a letter you could shorten it a bit. How about "I was a twat"?"

Well, you are.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Aug 13 - 12:29 PM

Dunno about speaking in tongues. Speaking with forked tongue, more like. Speaking in tongues my arse!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Aug 13 - 01:25 PM

That Heptonstall to Colne run is a belter init, Messiah S. Bit scary at times on some of the narrow hairpins but as an all powerful being I guess it just don't bother you. :-)

Did you know Hebden Bridge is the Funky Lesbian capital of the UK?

This has one HUGE advantage. The reputation keeps Guffers and Ake well away.

Bollocks!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Aug 13 - 06:13 PM

I didn't know about that drive until this week! A cracker. I heard that Hebden Bridge was the lesbian capital of the world but I didn't have time to find out if the town has appropriate viewing platforms for it ( bugger off - it's allowed in our new religion!). I hear that some aeroplane magazine has voted Hebden Bridge the fourth quirkiest place in the world. Musket, are you sure Knott End is the right place for us?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 22 Aug 13 - 01:57 AM

Well if you think of the mutual disrespect between me and an ex girlfriend of that parish, I would have no problems promoting the misogyny aspects of our new religion.

Hebden Bridge is fine I suppose. Closer to my place if nothing else.

Hi Goofus!   Ready to be covered in lard with an apple protruding from each orifice? We take our sacrifices seriously in our religion.   (Here, co Messiah and associated gnome. Have we come up with a zingy name for it yet? We can't just call it bollocks, people would confuse it with other profane religions. )

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Aug 13 - 06:19 AM

Slow day at work and still recovering from the ravages of Moira so looked up this bit of new research.

Just thought you may like it. My 'offering' if you like:-)

Bollocks!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 22 Aug 13 - 07:06 AM

Again:

Science is the religion of guessing...
Religion is the science of pretending.

GfS

P.S...and it's all just vanity.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Aug 13 - 07:31 AM

In the words of the great prophet, GfS

Bollocks!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

PS - Although I would not gainsay or Messiahs, I don't think you have a place in our religion. We will accept most nutcases as they are ideal fodder to part with their dosh, but we do have some standards.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket being patriotic
Date: 22 Aug 13 - 07:51 AM

Well said Brother Gnome.

On an adjacent thread I have just stopped my dog from playing with him. Can't have my lad mixing with wrong'uns.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 22 Aug 13 - 11:37 AM

Pete, I found your post sincere and interesting. I think the sense of belonging is an important aspect as to why people turn to religion. We all need a sense of community and in my opinion, this need for community is inherent in our DNA. My experience tells me that I want to continue to develop this idea but on a secular level. I think that Richard Dawkins, from what I've read and heard by him would support this sense of community and that he has been unjustly treated on this thread. In a society of conformity and media-control criticism is justifiable when aspects of religion or politics seem unreasonable or unjust. This is where Dawkins comes in. He has interviewed many religious people with a sincere scientific questioning without deriding any of them personally. He really wants to know how they think.

Revealing the reasons for a decision to adopt a religion or non-belief is an essential part of
understanding and a relief from the carping, brick-bat throwing and sarcasm that sheds no
light on this issue.

I would like to hear from others on this thread as how they happened to arrive at their convictions and thank Joe and Pete for their sharing.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket again
Date: 22 Aug 13 - 04:05 PM

Any interest in lack of a conviction?

Most people arrive at a conviction after a Judge or magistrate says "guilty."

If you hadn't realised, it was demonstrated much earlier by many that you can't define atheism in such a narrow sense as the thread title.

So this thread became a launch pad for the one true religion, as revealed by the two co Messiahs and associated gnome.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 22 Aug 13 - 04:14 PM

I see the usual up there own bumhole frauds, musket, gnome, shaw et al.. are still spouting their collective shite....I verilly believe that these buffoons had all been bullied at school... that is, of course if they ever bothered attending

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Aug 13 - 04:47 PM

I verilly believe that these buffoons had all been bullied at school... that is, of course if they ever bothered attending

You still have a job as scripture writer conc, owd lad. Your wonderful way with words will be invaluable to the idiots believing, er, sorry, the faithful congregation. What's keeping you anyway? I would have thought that you would have the first few chapters done by now? Can we help? I have a few books you may be able to crayon on if the warders are allowing you crayons yet that is...

Bollocks!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket thoughtful
Date: 22 Aug 13 - 06:40 PM

Hey! How do you know so much about my school days?

Spooky

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 22 Aug 13 - 07:48 PM

can't say I agree about dawkins, stringsinger, but I guess that's individual perpective for you. regards   pete.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Concerened
Date: 23 Aug 13 - 02:44 AM

Pathetic!! .....worse than that..unoriginal gnomey...signing yourself of with apropriase epithets dont make you clever, you pretentious clod..no one likes a smartarse..

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Aug 13 - 02:50 AM

Oh, come on, conc, put that crayon down. How many times must we tell you, they don't go up your nose. And I quite like my posterior being of acceptable appearance thanks you.

Messiah's S&M, I wonder if we may have made a mistake with this one. Did you check with his probation officer?

Bollocks!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket checking his file
Date: 23 Aug 13 - 05:20 AM

His key worker said he was ok but they are over stretched these day with large caseloads. I'll have a word with his CPN when she next reviews his meds.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Aug 13 - 06:02 AM

"Messiahs S&M"? Funny you should mention that. I was sort of contemplating some new activities that might attract more punters...

And you can shut yer cakehole an' all, concerened. You took so long over those Wacko plank-walking medallions that they've gone out of fashion owing to Wacko's long-term disappearance from the map. I haven't flogged a single one this week and I'm having 'em melted down. Thinking of using the metal to make some mini-statuettes of the twin Messiahs. They don't have to be that accurate in their depiction (a la Christian imagery) and I have a photo to work from. Musket, I could just do with knowing whether you're fat and bald or not...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Aug 13 - 06:10 AM

They don't have to be that accurate in their depiction (a la Christian imagery)

You mean all those photos of Christ are not accurate? Surely the camera does not lie. You will be telling us he is not blond haired and blue eyed next. Not that I would doubt your divine revelations of course...

Bollocks!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket and his vanity
Date: 23 Aug 13 - 06:26 AM

You could do a Michaelangelo (have I spelt that right? Possibly not,) and allow artistic licence.

A bit more hair, less beer belly etc. If we ever get that token woman, don't forget to give a decent lunchbox, you never know. Plenty on utube but sadly of me in rock bands many many years ago, and luckily, nothing by name. I am however curious.. It would appear that a song or two recorded at Stainsby Folk Festival of just me and guitar can e viewed on utube, not too many years ago either, but they got my b^%€!y name wrong and I can't remember what I was told to search under! (Stainsby wasn't mentioned either, and he didn't say which songs. I'm so curious, I could do with divine intervention to find the bloody thing.)

I contacted a decent lass via Viz Introductions if you are interested. Becky Thump, seems to take no shit from pesky southerners.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 23 Aug 13 - 04:46 PM

I think that lack of conviction is a conviction. This is semantic word play.
I am interested in how people arrive at a lack of conviction as well as a conviction,
if you like.

I think Dawkins has been misinterpreted by many with religious convictions.

What I find prevalent in this thead so far is a lack of understanding. It's too easy to ridicule and call names. This requires very little intellectual ability and a resort to anger and insults in place of a thoughtful examination.

I would give everyone here the benefit of the doubt and suggest that you arrived at your conclusions by an honest search. I am more interested in that honest search than I am at half-assed ripostes and angry generalities. They come across as pompous and vacant.

An assertion of this magnitude about atheism deserves an honest and sincere answer and not a supercilious snide sarcasm. Pete and I will never agree on this issue but I have a little more insight into his, what I would call, conditioning. He would call it "faith".

So far, there has been no religious person making a statement that would change my views and if I were a religious person, here, there would be no non-believer that would change them also. Leaving all that aside, this is an opportunity for dialogue and learning and getting beyond the petty wisecracks and
that's why I ask again for information about why the various positions about religion or non-religion were formulated.

Hurling sarcastic snide remarks is really a bore.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 24 Aug 13 - 02:43 AM

Just stop you right there at the beginning. This and many other threads have thrashed out your first comment so it is not easy to take it at face value.

Lack of conviction is not a conviction. My dog has no religious conviction so where is his conviction? I have no conviction over the ins and outs of stamp collecting. Why should I? It has no bearing on me. Ditto religion.

No conviction is not a stance, not an assertion. It purely means that I have no interest in becoming superstitious in such ways, giving me the benefit of being able to enjoy the company of those who do whilst decrying those who use religion as a tool to control others.

Interesting that I am at a Sikh equivalent of a christening tomorrow in Sheffield. The parents, good friends of ours, asked if we we would be offended by being invited.

Is this what religions do? Is the one true path bollocks so ingrained that normal friends who take theirs seriously assume such stances are common? I assume they think we are Christians, although the basis would be that we are white with blonde hair and blue eyes, like Jesus was.

(Copyright the esteemed gnome regarding that wonderful Jesus observation. (

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 24 Aug 13 - 07:03 AM

Were is Seaman Stayns when you want him?

This thread just gets more and more bowel wrenchingly embarrassing.

The amazing thing is you psueds think you are being so smart with your half digested crap that you smugly think passes for humour!!

By the way gnomey...you can stick your crayons up your pretentious buttocks and chew on 'em for a while!!unless you are as constipated as your mind (Ha Ha) undoubtedly is. Have a nice day

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Aug 13 - 07:09 AM

Ey up, conc. Have they let you on the keyboard again? Don't forget that you press with your fingers - You know what happened when you tried to type with your knees.

Bollocks!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Aug 13 - 07:27 AM

psueds

Sounds like something fatty but nice to eat.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Concerened
Date: 24 Aug 13 - 10:03 AM

This is getting to boring...now they cant understand basic english!
Hows them crayons working out for you gnomey?when you have finished chewing on em and dribbling out the corner of your mouth.. pass them on to ..the imposter shaw..then you will have more room for the thumb up bum scenario...pkease buck upall of you..at the moment this has been very average to have met you all.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Aug 13 - 10:15 AM

Nah, sorry conc, we will have to let you go as creative writer I'm afraid. See, to be a creative writer you need, how can I put this, to be creative and be able to write. Whereas creativity in spelling, grammar and punctuation is all well and good it doesn't really float my boat.

You could try the Mormons I suppose.

Good luck.

Bollocks!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Oh, and unless I have already missed it, 1500!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 24 Aug 13 - 10:24 AM

has anyone seen the thread where the non stamp collectors are decrying those that collect stamps, or vice versa?                   I must have missed it somehow!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket pissing himself
Date: 24 Aug 13 - 03:46 PM

The stamp collecting thread doesn't exist silly! It only exists in the minds of those with philatelist delusions!

Ok, if you want the point.. I, just like 99% of The UK don't go in for stamp collecting. In return, stamp collectors don't try to run the society in which I live, don't sit in The Lords voting on equality laws and don't insist on laws preventing me from shopping during parts of a Sunday.

I, just like 95% of the population am not a bloody Christian either. So why is a minority interest group allowed to influence law and society?

Sinking in yet?


By the way, you put I instead of i. Getting ideas above our station aren't we?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Aug 13 - 05:09 PM

This is getting to boring...now they cant understand basic english!

Don't y'all just lurve how the irony in this statement is totally lost on concerened?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 08:33 AM

Thank'ee shaw and gnomey, but I have had me share of patronising today.

Have you both ever thought of shelf stacking as an occupation? ah shucks! that probably needs a little more creativity than you two possess....critisisng honest folk is about as far as you two nomarks go.

Here is a thought ..the crayon syndrome..try ramming 'em up sideways

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 02:41 PM

How strange, someone mentions crayons. So does conc. Someone mentions creativity. So does conc. I wonder if there is an original idea in whatever passes for his brain? Let's see shall we. what are your views on aardvarks?

Bollocks!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 07:58 PM

As a matter of fact I've done shelf-stacking. Lots of it. And weeding with my bare hands. Mopping floors, scraping maggot-infested fat from mincing machines, burying the dead, scrubbing terracotta pots clean with me bare hands for days on end. Tell us what you've done, concerened.


Did you work upon the railroad
Did you rid the streets of crime
Were your dollars from the white house
Were they from the five and dime?

Or are you just a professional troll?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 26 Aug 13 - 02:03 AM

Didn't put him down as an Irish ex pat myself.

Here, this co Messiah stuff is getting spooky.   I jammed with a band last night and sang "Thousands are Sailing. "

Mind you, they had Theakstons Old Peculiar on draught and I wasn't driving. I think, and I could be wrong, we finished the set with Jerusalem. So if this new religion lark takes off, and it is in need of a good woman to do so, I seem to be getting the hang of superstition.

I note the concerned one said "you two." Can't work out whether he sees the wisdom of one of us after all or he is being openly gnomist?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Aug 13 - 04:06 AM

Can't be professional, surely Messiah S? Would that not entail getting paid for it? I certainly would not pay for such a poor service.

Ahhhh - Gotcha. Just realised that you were, once again, being munificent. We do need to help the needy if we are to continue with this 'ere superstition lark. That we we could have collections for the terminally stupid and cream off some dosh, err, sorry, take our fair expenses.

Phew, nearly gave the game away there but I don't think anyone noticed.

Bollocks!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,concere
Date: 26 Aug 13 - 06:52 AM

Yeh shaw, done all that and more...... but I also improved working conditions through our trade union movement, so people didn't have to use bare hands to do tasks.

What I didnt do was bleat about shit working conditions,and take your holier than thou attitude and do nothing.

We can all talk about how crap stuff is or was, some of us do something about it.We dont spend all day being so smug and self satisfied with our little in jokes and half arsed opinions that you and your psued friends seem to get huge satisfaction over

What I do not do EVER is snipe at peoples educational attributes as you and your other smug, head up arse chums do.

More crayons on the way.

Oh by the way shaw when you have chewed on em well, pass them on to the fraud gnomey will you.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Aug 13 - 07:04 AM

Yeah well I wasn't bleating about working conditions, I've been an active trade unionist for 40-odd years, put my bloody neck on the block organising both official and unofficial action, served on the union's regional committee for years trying to get right-wingers off their fat controlling self-serving arses and picketed schools at six in the morning, so you can sod off with your vague bloody bragging can't you!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Aug 13 - 07:33 AM

That's more like it, conc! Back in the realms of fantasy again. Keep it up and you may get your job as creative writer back.

To belong to a trade union you need to have a number of people working in the same trade. I am pretty sure that whatever trade you work at is pretty unique and I doubt very much if you can start a union of one.

Me? Followed my Dad into UCATT and then went to NALGO before that became Unison and lost it's teeth. Was active until I was 40-odd and then joined the ranks of the paid loads to do bugger all with Computers :-)

Bollocks!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket struttin'
Date: 26 Aug 13 - 12:23 PM

He DOES just mean you two! Ergo he thinks I am one cool dude.

I think you misunderstand this concerned character. He seems to like me. Respect!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Aug 13 - 03:06 PM

Hey! He is a clever bloke after all. Divide and conc-er :-) Could be the start of a whole new religious war.

Bollocks!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 27 Aug 13 - 05:30 AM

No need to get snippy shaw, nothing vague about me.... some of us don't feel the need to shout from the rooftops about what we have done.

Don't think you was very effective as a Rep, btw. Especially If you lose your cool like you do....and in writing!!!I bet the gaffers just loved you!!!!

gnomey, I just knew you was a NALGO member,bloody gaffers organisation..class traitors all of you.Extra pointed crayons on the way to you.

musket, don't even think about sllthering round me, people may think we are friends.

Can you other buffoons pass the used crayons on to musket.Or maybe form a circle and.....well you get the picture?

Have a nice day, you hear,,,,and lets be careful out there.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Aug 13 - 07:45 AM

Don't think you was very effective as a Rep, btw.

Blimey, what a bloody big kid. And how would you know?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Aug 13 - 08:32 AM

This guy really is wonderful. Shame about the cock-ups he makes which have lost him the writing and medallion jobs. Absolutely no idea of irony. Who else could say

ome of us don't feel the need to shout from the rooftops about what we have done

A mere 5 posts after stating

done all that and more...... but I also improved working conditions through our trade union movement, so people didn't have to use bare hands to do tasks.

Absolute genius. Should be writing for TV. Still hasn't mentioned the aardvarks though. The other thing is that he so obviously dislikes something (or someone) but keeps coming back so he must love the principles we stand for!

He would make a wonderful prophet and us a wonderful profit. Conc, Do you think you could grow a huge beard and live in cave for weeks on end? If the warders will let you out of course.

Bollocks!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Aug 13 - 12:52 PM

Tell you summat else about him, Dave. We must have really got his goat now cos he keeps coming back almost daily to do a bit of bluster. None of that once-a-week trollish drop-in stuff like before!

Speaking of goats, where are we on sacrificial stuff? Don't ask me to find virgin nanny-goats, though. Not here in Cornwall...drew a blank in Wales as well...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Aug 13 - 12:52 PM

Tell you summat else about him, Dave. We must have really got his goat now cos he keeps coming back almost daily to do a bit of bluster. None of that once-a-week trollish drop-in stuff like before!

Speaking of goats, where are we on sacrificial stuff? Don't ask me to find virgin nanny-goats, though. Not here in Cornwall...drew a blank in Wales as well...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Aug 13 - 03:35 PM

He's just trying to get his job back. I am very tempted at the moment. He is certainly deranged enough to pen the holy scriptures but, unfortunately, keeps making a pigs ear of it by going too far. I don't think we would have any credibility at all if people did not believe his book could be grounded in science...

What do you call a Welsh farmer who keeps goats?

Bisexual :-)

Bollocks!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sanctimonious as a sailor
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 01:01 AM

Aw! I really wanted a new friend too.   I broke the last one.

I wonder if we are hearing voices in our heads? Or at least reading them?

He could be the true Messiah you know, and seriously pissed off at our craven imagery.

Hang on, I'm getting a revelation.   Here it is! He IS of the cloth! Just worked it out. He comes across as a kiddie fiddler.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 06:35 AM

You lot really are a set of posing thickos!!!!!.Being so cool, anal, smug and self righteous, you have all missed the point.


So goddamn smart first you all identify me as a troll, then keep feeding me the lines..dead smart...I dont think.

DUUUUUhhh!! How would I know? shaw from your own lips and again in writingDUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUHHHHHHHHHHHHH....more crayons on me way to you.
Now whos the bloody big kid?

You all started of pretty well but now....................v. average..

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 07:15 AM

Gone a bit quiet haven't you? ..I told you before.. you are all way, way, way out of my league.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 07:34 AM

Is v average better than average?

I reckon he reached the vinegar stroke during that last post. ...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 08:09 AM

you are all way, way, way out of my league.

Probably the only true words you have ever posted, conc. How are things in the junior asylum cup?

I said before Messiahs and I will say it again. His ramblings could be directly from scripture. This level of delusion would be a huge asset to us. If only he would be a bit more inconsistent his ramblings as well as growing the huge beard and living in a cave. But I am not sure if he is old enough to grow a beard and living in a cave depends on whether the local health service can spare enough live-in minders.

Bollocks!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 04:45 PM

Gone a bit quiet haven't you?

Heheh. he waited precisely 50 minutes after his last post to post this. This guy (or is it a girl?) clearly thinks we all sit around waiting for his next inane pronouncement so we can immediately comment on it. Get over it, concerened. You don't count! And next time you pronounce yourself to be out of someone's league, do yerself a favour and say something sensible first!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 07:28 PM

Whenever you take a position on anything, this is a conviction. Dogs don't reason abstractly.

If you take a position that atheism has become a religion, that is a conviction.
If you take the opposite position, that is a conviction although in my opinion a more useful one.

The problem with threads like this is they trade on generalizations. The reason for
this thread is manifestly a diatribe against atheists who are outspoken.

There are no intelligent ideas now coming out of this thread and it should be retired.

I see no point of agreement or anyone changing their minds on this issue. It has turned into a battle for which there is no point. It's this kind of animosity that create wars.

This idiocy has turned into a shouting match.

Steve, you are wasting your breath. No one here will be swayed by your defense.

The religious advocates here are also wasting their breath. Nothing has been said by
any one of them that has changed my mind.

I think this thread was dead in the water when it was introduced. Sensible people have abandoned the field and left it to the crazies.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 01:13 AM

Well welcome to our crazy world then.

In our crazy world, atheism is not a conviction, and is a term used by people with faith to single out those who don't have faith.

My dog actually has reasoned his position on faith, otherwise he wouldn't keep trying to lick the balls he doesn't have.

This thread could last as long as any other religion, seeing how it passes the test of hosting one. Granted we haven't got around to starting any wars yet, but take my advice and don't try spilling the gnome's pint.

Problem is Stringsinger, you work on the basis that anybody who isn't superstitious makes a stance on superstition by default. That is not the case. Our village, not that small, has about 1500 people. I have been informed that the church gets a congregation of about 20. By your definition, the rest have thought about it and came up with reasons to dismiss it? By that standard, the owners of the Chinese takeaway should be able to survey those who don't buy from them to find out why they thought about chicken chow mein before rejecting the idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 03:42 AM

Stringsinger. If you believe this thread should be retired why contribute to it? Far from it becoming a shouting match or having no intelligent ideas it has become a call to join a new religion. Idiocy? Yes, but no more idiotic than most other religions. Do you post on any other religious thread to say theirs are idiotic? Don't want to join ours? Simple - Don't. We won't try to force you. Well, not for a few hundred years yet...

Bollocks!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 07:17 AM

Don't want to join ours? Simple - Don't. We won't try to force you. Well, not for a few hundred years yet...

Er, I was thinking of bringing in coercion quite soon, actually...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 07:23 AM

Surely a few hundred years is quite soon for a deity such as yourself, Messiah S? But let me know if it is sooner and I shall ride out to smite unbelievers with righteous indignation and a bloody big axe...

Bollocks!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 07:39 AM

Let's bring it in at least before those on my shit list die of old age?

I have myself a little list. ..

Where's the fun in being a Messiah if you can't befall your dire prognostications on God botherers, bigots, Sheff Utd fans and banjo players?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 08:18 AM

""This thread just gets more and more bowel wrenchingly embarrassing.

The amazing thing is you psueds think you are being so smart with your half digested crap that you smugly think passes for humour!!""

The thread isn't going away, so the answer would seem to be obvious to the meanest intellect (you would be in there somewhere).

If you find this or any other thread so offensive, why not go and jerk off somewhere else.

Staying here tends to the conclusion that you aren't as smart as you think.

And psued is spelt pseud!

Don T

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 08:28 AM

As I hinted before, it sounds like a conflation of suet pud. Or, in concerened's case, a conflatulence.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 08:36 AM

I'm all for it Messiahs. I have the big chopper ready and poised to remove peoples bodies from just above the knees. If you need me to aim higher I shall await your gift of a winged Pegasus, a tallish donkey or an Irish Wolfhound with a saddle.


Bollocks!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 12:56 PM

"Problem is Stringsinger, you work on the basis that anybody who isn't superstitious makes a stance on superstition by default. That is not the case."

I don't agree with this statement. I believe that anyone who isn't superstitious has a conviction that guides their reasoning. A dog is not a reliable source for an intelligent conversation about this issue.

The reason I keep contributing to this thread is my vain hope that something intelligent or enlightening might be revealed here. Since this is the only thread that Joe will allow, I feel that I can at least circumvent some of the crude and stupid statements being made as accusatory and present a sane point of view.

I'm not asking anyone to agree with me. One of the most important aspects of a discussion is a legitimate attempt at an honest communication. Twisting my words and trying to do a oneupsmanship attempt in ridiculous sarcastic argumentation is a futile endeavor.

I believe that non-belief is a conviction based on evidence. I am not as implied here trying to proselytize for a new religion. That's simply not true.

I think that this topic is important and this thread is the only one allowed on Mudcat
to address it.

"Militant atheism" as a generalization is misunderstood by some and is a misleading concept that is not attributable to every non-believer. What is militant to some is benign to others. Dawkins appears aggressive to those who he has critically challenged but in fact if you follow his lectures and bother to read his books you will find someone who is quite understanding in his humanity and has an open mind as befitting a true scientist.

He does react to injustice by fundamentalist religious groups who commit violence in the service of their "faith". He has been known to sit through prayers by his friends of the
Anglican faith withholding any criticism he might have.

An avoidance of this issue portends the further meanness and vituperative "war" that results in a lack of understanding. I choose to meet it head on here in hopes that there will be some genuine exchange of information.

I think that Pete, Joe and Steve have attempted to do this by offering a sincere history of the background that attends their ideas. I have found that useful information.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 01:28 PM

I believe that anyone who isn't superstitious has a conviction that guides their reasoning.

Nope, sorry. I am not superstitious as in religious but I am superstitious about some things. No conviction, not even reasoning. Just something that I do or don't do. Pretty much like which shirt I put on in the morning. If I wear the pink one is it because I have reasoned out that pink may get me promoted? Using Muskets earlier reasoning, if I order a curry from the Indian is it because I don't like Chinese food? What deep seated religious conviction makes me put my left shoe on before my right?

Sorry there are some things that I really don't give a shit about. Whether there is or is not a god is one of them.

Bollocks!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 03:25 PM

Stringsinger, this thread was long ago hijacked (for its own good, I'd claim) by a bunch of blokes who have found another way of taking the piss out of organised religion. We're seeing off po-faced gits like Ron, Wacko and concerened left, right and centre. That's all!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket in canine mode
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 04:07 PM

Don't diss my dog, that's all.

He is deeply superstitious and can prove it. He, as I have pointed out, licks balls he doesn't have, won't go in the house in front of me, but will assert his authority and barge in in front of Mrs Musket, he only accepts gravy bones from me after performing a shit on his walk but will happily accept them any time from the owner of his friend Cracker.

Trust me, the dog and I have conversations that far exceed some of the Pillocks on Mudcat. I can even concede a point to the dog whilst some of the more weird people posting fail to impress. Luckily, most of them have left this thread or never found it.

Non belief is not based on evidence. Ask a young lass in a pub what her evidence for non belief is and get the answer you deserve.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 04:25 PM

Stringsinger please don't take this as twisting your words but this thread does not stay current because Joe allows it. That belief of yours is certainly not evidence based.

This thread remains current because Steve and Musket perpetuate it.

I am sure that you can start a thread on the topic of "non= belief" whenever you want and it will last as long as people are willing to post to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 07:14 PM

Jeez, we have our numero uno altar boy back!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sanctimonious as a sailor
Date: 30 Aug 13 - 02:29 AM

Rock on my nautical brother!

Thought you had gone off for a period of reflection, like the last Pope or that Scottish Bishop.

We've kept your cassock waiting. Hope it still fits, we had to boil wash it after the bingo incident and Steve's inability to see the goodness in Betty Swollox.

You will be pleased to know our religion now has acknowledged respectability through the many clever people here on Mudcat.org. We also have our heaven and unlike some, ours exists. It is called Knott End and from where you are, you can gaze East over the ocean towards it.   Ok there are a few peat bogs and leprechauns in the way but at least you can take a bearing on heaven, which is more than some religions offer.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 30 Aug 13 - 07:26 AM

Stringsinger dont come on here breaking our balls about what we can do or not do..we do not need your type of thread policing.

What you need to do, is get a sense of humour.. something sadly lacking here.

I completely disagree with you barnacle balls , this thread keeps active because of people like me exposing frauds like yourself and the buffoon shaw, the smug prig gnomey and all the assorted yeggs, psudo intellectuals, ginger fakes, pussy liberals, prancing prudes, right wing cake eaters and biscuit chomping Mail readers.

I must admit there is some basis of an argument with strange people around like musket and all his secret friends...although weird he is v amusing in another planet sort of way.. but so I guess is his dog.

BTW shaw I dont think you have seen me off, your inane comments prove that.

How are the crayons working out. or up with your little chums.. got loads more waiting..

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Aug 13 - 08:30 AM

See, there he goes again! Just when you think he is right for the job he goes and says something half sensible.

Conc, you really need to get a grip if you want the scripture job back. No good applying for the medallion man position again, you've blown that, but if you consistently talk gibberish you may be in with a chance as editor in chief of the Yebbut.

assorted yeggs, psudo intellectuals, ginger fakes, pussy liberals, prancing prudes, right wing cake eaters and biscuit chomping Mail readers.

is perfect. Just the right amount of seemingly real but in truth nonsense words.

What you need to do, is get a sense of humour.. something sadly lacking here.

Is sadly lacking your usual delusory element and will not do at all. Although, I must admit, it does hold a certain amount of irony coming from someone who does not know the difference between laughing with him and laughing at him.

Just who did mention crayons first BTW and what have you got against Aardvarks?

Bollocks!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket struttin'
Date: 30 Aug 13 - 10:04 AM

Yo! Love me love my dog!

Notice that fellow Messiah and associated gnome? You've either got it or you ain't. This here concerned chap, he recognises talent, I'll give him that much.

Whether I'd give him a pint or one of my pork scratchings, well that's another story.

Here Dave! Did you get him to sign a contract for the scriptures? If he has had his advance, we may have to get a Holy Ghost writer to finish it.



Ithankyouverymuch

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Aug 13 - 10:47 AM

Nah, I didn't have a pen't'cost it out and felt he was not spirited enough :-)

Hey! It must be rubbing off. Though what I will find underneath I'm not sure...

Bollocks!

DtG,C,LBandSPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Aug 13 - 08:11 PM

Trouble with you, concerened old dear (or are you an actual girl, I can't decide), is that you're tending to be a tad repetitive. Now you accuse us of not having a sense of humour, yet you prattle on interminably with your crayon "joke". You appear to think that this is witty/funny/sarky, but, truth is, you're just like a little kiddie who thinks he's found summat funny then bores everyone around him to death with it until his mum finally snaps and gives him a bloody good clip. Yes, the anal crayon-chewing concept is potentially hilarious, but, owd lad, you don't know when to stop! So stick that up your unwashed, smelly, chocolate-covered bottom and chew it! Preferably a purple one. I always hated purple ones.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 05 Sep 13 - 09:03 AM

shaw you are getting incredibly boring..BTW my bottom is like a perfumed little peach..not that you would ever get near it.

I agree Crayons are getting passe....a few lego bricks on there way to you..snugger fit.

Talking about repetitive, don't gnomey ever get fed up of his "bollocks" scenario..I am afraid I am

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 05 Sep 13 - 02:35 PM

Here are some questions offered to elevate the discussion on this thread.

Let's say for the sake of discussion that militant atheism is a religion.

To what god does this militant religion obey or pray to?

If it is a militant religion, does this mean it is a "bad" religion and should be censured?

Does this mean that any militant religion should be censured and attacked?

Should there be militant Protestant/Catholic, Judaic/Islamic, wars as well as Non-belief/Belief ones?

Is religion something that should never be criticized and held as somehow sacrosanct because it is a religion? How about the Crusades or beheadings in Islamic countries?

Atheists (militant or not) are attacked all the time. Does this mean that those religious adherents who do so are intolerant? (Rhetorical question, of course they are).

Are all "militant" atheists necessarily "anti-theist"?

Why are some militant atheists self-proclaimed agnostics and others not?

What rituals, rites, ceremonies, oblations or other church events do militant
atheists practice that make them militant atheists a religion?

Does saying that one is a Protestant mean that they automatically deride
Catholics? Does saying that one is a passionate (read militant) non-believer mean that they deride believers?

Can militant atheists be considered holy? If they are a militant religion
then why not? Can there be a Saint Dawkins, Saint Hitchens or can they be popes
or monsignors or priests? Is that acceptable to those who attack atheists?

What bible do the militant atheists follow? The gospel according to Hitchens or
Dawkins or Harris? (They all differ if you bother to read them).

Do militant atheists believe in "just wars" like some Catholics do?

Anyone care to recite a militant "atheist prayer"?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Sep 13 - 04:17 PM

A religion is only of value if it delivers spiritual/energetic enlightenment, a process that physically happens to the human body when it is in the right state."dont knows" have it happen to them too btw.
    The enlightenment i am referring to is when you have navigated what other cultures call the kundalini.Whilst certain corners of our society understand this,for some reason it is not common knowledge.Happened to me naturally no practices.My key to this happening was learning to breathe and eating clean..period (selfless attitude at the time was a necessity too when i think about it.Anybody elses notion of Source/God you have heard will still not of prepared you for the vast awesomeness of it. peace n dat

research the kundalini understand it and you will see it is where all religion comes from.Then if you have a year or two have a go.I never had a choice but highly recommend it for those that are ready and have the space to consider this.It has happened to many all through our history.Oh and while it is obviously a human experience because it is a human being having it,it is more of an energetic realisation than a human one..so Gods not humanly personal and all this verbage is irrelevant so..best i finish...you may deride at your leisure but for the few that it resonates with go looky i no lie.
C'mon if Mr Russel Brand can suss this i'm sure some here can.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Sep 13 - 07:23 PM

Hellooo? Cannot I, as the Messiah, go away for a week on an idyllic holiday with the missus to a fabulous hotel on the Amalfi coast, spending time in Pompei, Herculaneum, Capri, Ravello and Positano, not to speak of right up Vesuvio, consuming the most amazing seafood, pizza and pasta, washed down with Lacrima Christi grown and fermented on the very slopes of the aforementioned brooding volcano, without the thread languishing in the mire? Wherefore art thou all, pretenders?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 11 Sep 13 - 03:11 AM

Whilst you were swanning in Italy I thought I would get lots of work done for us but keeping to your Italian theme thought I'd do it domani.

Jack never collected the cassock and I have come to realise that if you try to debate with him seriously you get the same defensive bollocks thrown at you as when you called him Seaman Stains or Spunky or Jerk the Sea Cadet or Whacko or any of the other names I promised him I would never use again.

There again he thinks I don't mind lying to Christians so I may have found a legal loophole somewhere. ..

Pop off for my own two weeks of contemplation at the end of the month. Thailand. I will be grateful for the Bible when I get there and especially Genesis. Always look to see if she has an Adams Apple. .....

Interestingly I zoomed over to Jack's asylum choice, The USA for two days last week. Not a holiday though I can tell you. .... luckily I was in the North East bit which is different to our North East. No Geordies but everyone claiming Irish blood in them. The Foreign and Commonwealth Office advise against travel in the deep south. Snakes apparently.

They keep escaping from the churches.



Ithankyouverymuch

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Sep 13 - 05:53 PM

Unfortunately just browsed the freedom of sp thread.Anyway Poster little hawk re "death before knowing".Like the Christian how can a man be born again.Something to consider and remember a multitude of people do and have exp this and seen it through.Forget any notions he has or dreams etc look at the PHYSICAL process i think all religions try to deliver this process.No need to reply as it might be a while before i browse again, just something i thought i would throw in the mix for you to consider.Peace n dat       http://www.realitysandwich.com/introduction_u_g_krishnamurti